career-advice

[true harness]

what is sodexo?

[brazen island]

It's mostly a European thing. Companies give you tax free money for "meals". It's a gross -> net salary optimization trick.

[fair oak]

@fringe sphinx do you have the link for a byte of python

[true harness]

what's the trick?

[brazen island]

They basically give you the coupons they were talking about, a car, unlimited fuel, a small expense account you can use on whatever, compensation for the IP you produce etc. because these are all taxed less than simply giving someone a big gross salary

[true harness]

ah. interesting

[delicate bane]

seems like there are always accounting tricks

[fringe sphinx]

https://python.swaroopch.com

[fair oak]

thanks dude

[maiden shore]

My brother suggest me to do I.T(4years) then Rebotics and A.I(2+2years)
He said that I should know the basic
What you think about it?

[deft herald]

What country are you in? I.T. doesn't seem necessary for a Robotics degree

[maiden shore]

Pakistan

In my area there are only two subjects
I.T and CS

[dense mesa]

IT will be not be helpful for robotics

[somber pawn]

Is a degree worth it if It's not my priority to get a job?

[fringe sphinx]

What is your priority then?

[maiden shore]

I'll apply for Europe after 6-12 months for study then I'll stay there for 3 years then move to USA for business

[somber pawn]

Do my stuff, doing something on my own. I'm nott too interested in working for companies.

[fringe sphinx]

You can certainly learn on your own without a degree. A degree program gives you structure, broader knowledge than you’ll likely get via self study, and a credential that may be helpful in your career.

Also, a degree program will help you build a network (friends/etc) that would be very important if you want to build a business or venture on your own.

[somber pawn]

The only reason why I'd apply is to make good relationships.

[fringe sphinx]

It’s also hard to raise money without credentials, if you want to start your own business

[somber pawn]

How hard is it to find sponsors or investors?

[fringe sphinx]

So you know how hard it is to get an entry level job? Harder than that.

[deft herald]

Sounds like you might want a business degree

[somber pawn]

No definitely not.

I suppose it's gonna only be a dream then, I've asked a bunch of people and they pointed out how hard it is.

[fringe sphinx]

Everything is hard. If it wasn’t, everyone would be doing it.

But your dream seems to be: can I take a shortcut and have greater success than the folks who don’t?

[dense mesa]

With a good network, and/or product, and/or tenacity, it's not crazy hard. Without a foundation, very challenging

[somber pawn]

Not sure what shortcut you talking about, I'm fine with uni as long as it helps me achieve my goals. Also, I'm a huge believer in self-learning.

[dense mesa]

Those 3-4 years show potential collaborators/business partners/etc that you can stay focused on one challenging thing for a long period of time

[fringe sphinx]

Sorry if that came off wrong: a lot of people say they find college pointless therefore want reassurance that we agree it’s pointless (which doesn’t come). College degrees have many values, including academic maturity/challenges that it’s exceptionally hard to get via self study.

[cobalt moat]

How many summer internships should I be applying for? Each application takes forever cause the built in resume parser is garbage

[safe coral]

@fringe sphinx some people told me that masters in Data Science is worthless

[modern ore]

junior drilling is insane 😹

@late flame was it similar for you for new grad?

[pine sleet]

If they think that LC is the end all be all I might know why they got rejected

[gritty rivet]

The more the better, but put quality over quantity

[celest kite]

Lol

[celest kite]

But like; I'm trying to parse the statement. Are they saying in three rounds of interviews they were given a total of 5 lc questions to solve as part of the interview?

[fringe sphinx]

That just seems like a hot take with no possible answer, especially because it depends on your privilege (time & money).

[sand sandal]

yall whats the most similiar language to python?

[fringe sphinx]

In data science, however, it's an increasingly academic and theoretical venture. If anywhere in CS-land a graduate degree is useful, it's data science.

[safe coral]

They told me to do CS masters with DS track but it looks exactly the same as DS masters @fringe sphinx

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, then that's just a debate about curriculum?

[sand sandal]

.

[safe coral]

I guess? Im not sure. Its kind of weird tho

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe ask that in #python-discussion ? THis is more about jobs & careers.

[sand sandal]

oh sorryy wrong channel

[fringe sphinx]

The thing is: you're looking for a DS career... not a SWE career... so I don't really get it.

[safe coral]

why would I do CS masters when its the same as DS masters

[fringe sphinx]

I think DS degrees are a relatively new specialization and not one that most people will have much knowledge or informed opinions around. I don't.

[safe coral]

Yeah

They told me its a money grab but then arent most MS degrees are?

[pine sleet]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. It seems like someone in another server gave some advice you don't necessarily agree with. You don't have to follow it if you don't agree with it

[safe coral]

bro its the whole server. Go to Stats Discord and people call you idiot for studying Data Science @pine sleet

[fringe sphinx]

My experience was: My masters gave me great value. I learned a lot. I have no idea if it was worth the $$ and have no way to gauge that.

[modern ore]

Yes

[pine sleet]

I don't see what the problem is. Them calling you an idiot is mean, but they're internet people. Block the people who are being mean and move on

[fringe sphinx]

(also, I had the privilege to have employers offset the cost of the masters)

[safe coral]

They also said good luck wasting your money and finding a job

[modern ore]

? They got asked 5 leetcode questions and he solved them, what do you want him to do lmao

[safe coral]

They were mean as hell. Even the moderator

[pine sleet]

So block them

[fringe sphinx]

It's very easy to spot bad people and bad scientists (and Sith): they speak with absolutes and conclusory statements.

[pine sleet]

People will always say different things. Everybody takes a different path and what works for one person might not work for you. Don't get hung up on what someone said was a bad decision until you try it for yourself

[safe coral]

Okay 😄

[ashen citrus]

Yeah, it’s the point. Trust your self just do the thing’s and stop to search a lot.

[true harness]

probably means you should work on your resume to make it more machine readable

[late flame]

Yeah I'd say so. 5 questions in three rounds doesn't sound like much (I'm making assumptions on the size and difficulty) and there's no saying how well they answered them

[true harness]

just goes to show how much competition there is for more sought after roles 😔. assuming they did everything perfectly, at least

[late flame]

It's hard to say how well they did without knowing the actual questions and answers. If they're actually answering them all perfectly they'll get a job soon enough

[fringe sphinx]

The frustrating thing to me is that I strongly doubt there’s a strong correlation between these filters and job/career success. The industry has gone through various interviewing fads (back to the Microsoft ‘how would you move Mount Fuji style questions).

but alas, it's a pointless complaint. The game is the game. https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/e0dcb60c-b4d9-438a-8476-da755777b6c0/gif

[modern ore]

You said you interviewed juniors right? is it normal to ask 5 leetcode type questions during their interview process

[buoyant seal]

Joke:
300 hundreds resumes arrive to working table.
A new recruiter is terrified by the amount.
A more experienced recruiter gives a helping hand to process them faster
He calmly throws half of resumes to a shredder
Novice HR is horrified and asks - why did u do it?
experienced HR answered - well, why would we hire them? They clearly lacked luck to pass interviewing process 😁

[fringe sphinx]

Yes I interview / hire juniors. No, I don't ask 5 leetcode questions: but I'm not representative of big tech hiring practices. I usually ask 2 technical questions from a junior: I don't expect much.

[fringe sphinx]

That reminds me of that heinlein story... puppetmasters

[buoyant seal]

I hire middle devs 🙈 I don't even ask LC.
Just asking theory questions, giving refactoring live coding task and live coding to develop application with postgresql tables and queries.

I ask first two stages first though, I tend to extract more value out of them to see if I need to continue interview or I can finish in advance

[fringe sphinx]

I explicitly ask a LC only to see how a candidate works through a problem they don't know the answer to. If they know the answer, I ask another.

[true harness]

how do you discern whether they know the answer?

[fringe sphinx]

If they solve it quickly, more or less

There's a few things informing my approach: 1. I'm not hiring people to build a rocket ship: we're building data engineering / web / business applications. It's more important that we like working together and are competent, than hiring "geniuses" who'll (point #2) be impossible to retain. 3. I also think OAs / leetcodes are a blunt instrument with poor precision, being used as if they're surgical instruments.

I came to a conclusion a while back that the only successful strategy was: hire fast / fire fast. (of the matrix of: hire slow/fire slow vs hire fast / fire slow vs hire slow / fire fast)

(But again, I am not representative of the industry in this regard)

[peak halo]

Does this mean that you'll sometimes pass on quality candidates because you think they'll leave?

[fringe sphinx]

I’ve actually done this, had two candidates who I just thought were unretainable (they made it pretty clear, untactfully)

But, my main filter is first geographic - I don’t want to hire people with a long commute (even if we’re hybrid now). This isn’t a strict rule.. had an engineer for years who had an hour commute… but from even more rural)

[peak halo]

As in, they made remarks bragging about their ability to move between companies?

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, more or less saying that their dream was to do XYZ (which had nothing to do with what we did).

[peak halo]

Oof

[true harness]

brought the wrong notes for the interview 😔

[late flame]

This is the only way to do it. Anything else is hogwash.

[late flame]

At bigger companies and hot startups yes. If it's not one question per interview it's one 5-10 minute question and then the rest of the time is for a larger question. But usually 1 per interview is standard.

[glad oar]

hey Im new here and I have a question

when beginning to code should you start with Python or with javascript? Also for reference I am limited to just a chromebook for now but I receive an Apple laptop upon graduation, im in the 12th grade.

and im using freecodecamp.org to get started

[celest kite]

Why would you receive a downgrade for graduation?

[glad oar]

thats a downgrade?

a macbook

im using a chromebook that cant download anything

[buoyant seal]

That is humor with truth in it

Windows with WSL gets u somewhat access to everything almost

Linux onboard gives u perfect development environment for all web related stuff and most of development in general too

MacOS .. is kind of more limited than both choices above in what it provides as OS, plus gives additional headache with poorly compatible arm64 CPU architecture (99% of the world still uses amd64)

[glad oar]

put it in a way someone who hasn't studied a lot of computer science yet, can understand.

[buoyant seal]

At MacOS u a going to be more restricted in installable program choices than at Windows and Linux
Not very far from locked down Chromebook choice

[fringe sphinx]

In US universities, the first programming language is either Java or Python (Python is replacing Java, but AP CS still hasn't switched, so it's taking a while).

[glad oar]

kay

I'll just use the recources I have and make it work.

[fringe sphinx]

Do you need pointers? We have lots of stuff to recommend. Just ask for tutorial recommendations on #python-discussion

[queen meteor]

hey what channel do i send entire half developed .py files for people to review in

[glad oar]

ok thank you billy

[fringe sphinx]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[queen meteor]

thanks man

[gritty rivet]

You're on a Python server so we may be biased. The main advantage of Python for a beginner is that it's just easy. But JS is also a good beginner language and it lets you do more with web. So I'd say you should figure out what kinds of projects you would rather start building and choose that way. You can also start one and if you don't like it try the other

[modern ore]

aight i've only had interview at 2 big tech companies, so I haven't been exposed yet

[vapid jay]

I'd also point out that some directions should bias you towards Python, namely data science and related fields.

[maiden star]

Can u gimme a headstart on sodtware developement ik bits of Java python and more of cpp

[ivory compass]

Depends on what you want. If you really want to become a web developer probably javascript .

[buoyant seal]

it depends on how u wish to pave your path 🤔

in general basic javascript knowledge is expected from everyone in web development, no matter job role (you can be backend, frontend, QA, devops, it does not matter. everyone is expected to know basic vanilla js in web related world)
but at depth? Python can help you moving more towards Backend development (or data engineering or machine learning or even towards devops engineering, whatever)
Javascript (with preferably learning typescript as soon as possible), will move you move towards Frontend development, gravitated with full stack in addition. Javascript can be used FOR EVERYTHING... at the worst quality, but with ts it should be good 😄

For some reason AWS pushing for js/ts being its main language most supported too, So... this language potentially will serve as sufficient lang for infra purposes too

At the end of a day, both languages are dynamic typed ones and have small difference after certain point
Python = Javascript, Python with Mypy = Typescript

Though Python is more enjoyable than Javascript 🤔 (biased but hey, we are in python server)

Anyway, that is my advice.. pick language comfortable for you, and check u don't mind job roles that could be pursued with it (and which can't be pursued with it)

[vapid jay]

live coding, the worst coding rhere is. i just cant wait for some old dude to breath behind my shoulder looking while i code

[fringe sphinx]

You’ll have to get over that. You’ll certainly need to work through a problem, perhaps on a whiteboard, in an interview… just as you would in a real job.

[buoyant seal]

it is necessary nevertheless 😊 makes easy to discover that person is actually close to first time coding, or having quite poor coding skills in general.
i ask theory in advance in order for person to understand what will be expected at practice, and i ask guiding questions in order to encoursage showing stuff i wish to see. If person is not able to show necessary things even after 5 hints of having certain thing named in different ways... person is just not knowing thing X usually.

Tbh, often enough i don't need to even obscure my questions. I just straight ask at certain point if person knows and used thing X or not 😄 honesty is present and saves time
(P.S. and yeah... live coding is pretty much serves only as extension of theory. And any thing spotted during live coding makes additional theory questions to verify more precisely person's level)

[scenic copper]

does anyone know where I can find an example of someone who publicly posted their projects they used to get a job on a resume on github or something?

I just want a reference for the complexity of the projects so I get an idea

[vapid jay]

in real job i use google and chat gpt

[buoyant seal]

i saw candidates trying to pass interview with chat gpt and github copilot 🙈 that is modern new level to fall lower than possible. (seeing hallucinated answers :/ )

[buoyant seal]

in my university our higher Math teacher allowed taking ANY book with you to exam.

The thing is... if u don't know what to seek, u aren't able to find it, because u don't know what to search (and u don't understand it until u learned and applied at practice it)
And also u need sufficient understanding to verify it yields correct answer or not.
This valid is both to Google and ChatGPT

[vapid jay]

yeah open book exams. had those, ppl failed still

[buoyant seal]

in commercial real world programming it is even more challenging because... learning curve to get things is like this:

until u reached understanding via sufficient level of practice... even knowledge is kind of useless beginning in the path

[elder forge]

Are oral exams a thing of the past?
I have a feeling that oral exams might better prepare students for interviews.

[fringe sphinx]

Im just making my usual rant but: I think the emphasis on OAs in big tech has skewed interview prep towards DSA stuff and away from traditional: how do you answer a question like a human

[fringe sphinx]

But I don’t recall ever having an oral exam in any of my university time, except once for PhD qualifiers (and that was an unusual circumstance that also involved a written)

[fringe sphinx]

I love that diagram.

[idle sonnet]

so im at ''made projects, experience'' then. gotta do migrations next i guess

[modest blaze]

Are udemy certs worth getting?

[pine sleet]

Not necessarily. They're pretty easy to get so don't hold much value

[regal axle]

My rule of thumb is that if it’s not going to cost you anything do it. If it’s going to cost you a little; maybe. If it’s really expensive; no. Obviously there are reasons to get expensive ones if a job requires it. But most certs are not useful for anything more than you personally validating your knowledge.

And you can do that in a million other ways

[pine sleet]

Personally I find them to be a waste of time but I suppose if it's free it really can't hurt

[modest blaze]

I'm 6 years into electrical and graduated from my apprenticeship..so I'm just trying to grow and move into an automation/ robotics career path.

[warm tree]

Where can I learn front end dev?

Like html css and Java

[peak halo]

you use Javascript for front end dev, which is (counterintuitively) unrelated to Java.

[outer granite]

YouTube

[outer granite]

You also have an option to go towards specialization in Automation & Robotics by pursuing a post-graduate degree.

[brazen island]

They're common in Europe. Many courses in my master's were oral exams.

[buoyant seal]

Java is on another hand great for backend development. 🙂 for some long term maintainance, financial stuff

[warm tree]

I meant js

[warm tree]

Thanks 🤦🏿‍♂️

[late flame]

If it costs nothing then it also has no barrier to entry, which means it's worth nothing in a resume.

If you're doing it to learn a concept then sure. But it will not help you get attention from recruiters.

[regal axle]

sure; but I said that

... most certs are not useful for anything more than you personally validating your knowledge.
"Barrier to entry" shouldn't be a thing on a cert. It should be a proof of knowledge. Not a proof of wealth. But either way, they end up being useless unless really well known and vetted (so basically none of them)

[dense mesa]

<@&831776746206265384> low effort spam

[raven turret]

i really wanna know how can i use chatgpt to learn how to code faster without detreminting the skills of coding. Like imagine if i am a living in a period without AI , i would have developed certain skills that makes independent. I am worried that relying on ( AI ) would make me lose those skills. I might be wrong but i really want any advice

[somber pawn]

this is not a carrier discussion.

[kindred oyster]

also no crossposting 🤷‍♂️ #pedagogy message

[raven turret]

i wanted different opinions

some people check certain channels only

[kindred oyster]

each channel describes its purpose , ask only in the most suited one
if its a general question we have 3 offtopic channels and 1 python related channel

[fringe sphinx]

I'll give you my career related answer (but plz don't crosspost... if you want to ask a general question, ask in #python-discussion ): When you're just starting off and learning anything using a tool to do the hard stuff will stunt your growth. Should an elementary school kid use a calculator instead of learning how addition works? Should a soccer player just play FIFA instead of practicing on the field? Should a pilot use autopilot and never learn how to land a plane?

So, career-wise: you're not going to impress anyone at an interview by saying: "I'm really good at GPT and Google".

[kindred oyster]

ironically you can be a liability if you say that I create code using GPT

[raven turret]

can you go to #pedagogy please

[smoky quest]

Please review our #code-of-conduct .
Don't try to be a smart ass

[spark cobalt]

The major issue with certificates is that the general format of these certificates are some written test about swimming. You can read all the books you want, get all the certificates you want about swimming, but if you've never swum before, no one wants to hire you.

Proof of knowledge doesn't mean much if you can't show that you can apply the knowledge. Otherwise, you're just a person who can say big words and smart things without doing anything smart.

It doesn't hurt per se, but typically you'd have better things to put on your resume.

[tardy burrow]

Any python projects to start with so that I can impress my recruiters

[ivory compass]

The only thing I found that impressed developers, not really recruiters as they dont seem to care, are projects tailored towards that company

[fringe sphinx]

I'm also impressed when someone can talk me through their design decisions / tradeoffs / shows genuine passion for their work. I remember one great interview where the candidate showed off a game they developed: we hired based on that... even though it had nothing to do with the job.

[delicate bane]

recommend this podcast for anyone in data job market rn https://open.spotify.com/episode/4JLmMXfO32SzFsAGVpc63W?si=4b36fd08642e499a

also theres some career advice

[harsh remnant]

I’m lost on what kind of projects should I do? Super hard projects? Easy fun? I’m not sure

[fringe sphinx]

Something a little more challenging than your last project, perhaps?

Or something you find interesting that’s a reach?

[eager steppe]

Focus on making the new project better/ harder than your last one.
Learn to utilize the tools you have (being different websites or AIs as chatGPT) as they can give you multiple project ideas and help you on any basic questions about the language.

[celest kite]

This is low-key bad advice

[eager steppe]

The improvement part or the availabilty of help part?

[smoky quest]

It's about 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏 for the role.
The nature or level of completion does not matter. So think about the skills required for your ideal job and what projects could help 👏 demonstrate 👏 these 👏 skills 👏

[night orchid]

yeah always just find something you're interested in. i find myself tacking on trying design patterns i'm unfamiliar with that i would've never even thought to apply at first just because how a project evolved as i was developing it. just happened because i had momentum and enthusiasm.

[buoyant seal]

Any project can grow Infinity in complexity. Just do smh u like 😅

I highly recommend to aim building project with complexity at least of multiple structured files/folders/modules though.

U can safely be expected to write at least N thousands code lines for smh preferably.
Or even dozens thousands code lines

Project of size 10 or 50 code lines of single file will not impress anyone for sure.

That is assuming u aim for software engineering position.

For machine learning, data science positions could be different criteria valid

[night orchid]

meh, i can definitely be impressed by a 50-liner if it's doing something simple, right, and succinct. hell, in python almost anything can be written in 50 lines anyway 😛

[buoyant seal]

🙈 i can't be impressed with 50 code lines at all in terms of complexity.

I can give exception to machine learning projects which could be having entire PhD dissertation in those 50 code lines though. (give me proper long documentation with research to explain why those 50 code lines do the magic though)
Or i can give exception, if the project like having configured at infra side ultra money economy, by running those 50 code lines in event bridged (cron scheduled) aws lambda

[grizzled moss]

Where is a good place to look for programming internships (college student)?

[true harness]

career fair, handshake, linkedin

[snow ridge]

Without knowing any devs, how does one find people to evaluate their project?

[lapis wind]

Normally you can ask the various programming communities for feedback on bits of your code and project

For example, if it was a Python script I think a lot of people here would be happy to look over it and give feedback in a help channel etc...

[true harness]

i happen to know a few python devs. they like talking on a discord server

[modern ore]

github

[snow ridge]

My project has 6 script files, around 1500 lines total. Didn't know python prior to this project (and haven't coded since high school) so I don't even know if how I structured everything is correct. Not sure if that'd be too much to ask people to look at.

[true harness]

people love to point out when other people are wrong, so it's probably fine

[modern ore]

I hate doing that, I dont want people to improve

[snow ridge]

I like to be wrong so I can learn to be right. And right now I don't know if I'm doing things wrong or right.

Best way to upload several hundred lines of code? It definitely won't fit in a message so just upload a text file?

[lucid vapor]

Typically a repository on GitHub, GitLab, or some other VCS-hosting-platform.

[snow ridge]

Ah, makes sense, thanks!

[unborn rose]

10/10

[vapid jay]

Is python worth even learning for the backend? Or should I stick with JS and Golang.

[smoky quest]

python is very popular on backends

[vapid jay]

Don't wanna learn something that I won't be using that much.

[smoky quest]

That means missing on other ways to think and solve problems. But that's a different topic

[vapid jay]

Hey guys! I'm from India and want some career advice from you guys. Due to some circumstances, I had to leave my studies when I was in tenth class. I had to go through many hardships in life and could not complete my education. Despite having no degree, I worked at an IT company as an HR/Admin and later got promoted to Technical support executive. Then the company terminated me because I met with an accident and had to take a proper rest for 3-4 months. Then I joined an International BPO because I needed money and they were paying well. I cracked the interview and submitted the fake documents for my 10th and 12th. And currently, I'm working here on the night shift (too hectic) See guys I'm very much tech enthusiastic and I want to be in Software engineering. I've decided to learn Python as it is very user and beginner-friendly. And it is very much in demand. So my question is: Will I be able to do well in my career if I become a pro in Python without having any degree? I also want to set an example for the people who were unable to study due to XYZ reasons. The night shift is too hectic. I just want to learn Python and join a company even if they are paying less. What are your thoughts guys? Any suggestions will be appreciated.

[ocean sedge]

I think you can get into some jobs without a degree
You’d just have to look really good to employers

[white relic]

The educational system and career market in India is strange to most outsiders. You should take that into account if you get any advice from the internet because it might not apply to your situation. (I don't have any particular insight myself.)

[unborn rose]

Any career related to programming/technology is more based on experience than certificates

[summer roost]

Agreed, and I'd add that degrees and qualifications seem to be much more important in India than they are in the west, from what I've heard as an outsider

[vapid jay]

Thankyou guys for all the advice. I'll give my best shot in learning and building connections. I think building connections will help.

[spark cobalt]

Nothing worth anything is 50 lines long. In software engineering, it's a shit ton of these 50 line long tidbits and the challenge is how we can connect these 50 line tidbits to create a scalable, functioning, and performant software. The impressive thing is how these 50 line tidbits connect, not necessarily the 50 line tidbit itself.

For example, if you're building a game, hit detection by itself is not very impressive. But how you integrate hit detection to the much bigger picture, and make everything connect cohesively is very impressive. (Working on this right now, the challenge is almost NEVER the 50 line tidbits.)

[night orchid]

i mean, i was being a little facetious, but only partially. there's been plenty of times in my career that a clever 50 lines can be the difference of -- literally -- millions of dollars of revenue 😉

[spark cobalt]

I've experienced similar, but ime those 50 lines was like a crossroads for many aspects of the product. Never experienced a standalone 50 line that managed to improve a product that much. Granted, I haven't been in the industry for a long time at all, so maybe it's to come :3

[true harness]

there's also situations where the core algorithm is very short, but the code to support and make that algorithm actually deal with users is much much larger

[gritty rivet]

Look for jobs and people using Python for their jobs in your area on LinkedIn, Indeed, or whatever people may be using over there. If you're in a city there may be a Python user group or some other local network. If you can find anyone who's making it without a degree, they may have the best advice. But probably if there's any possible way you can get a degree, that's likely to be worth doing

[ember goblet]

hello ... i m newbie coder... joining the community today

[tardy burrow]

Same here

[buoyant seal]

i think it is great idea for backend dev to know at least one dynamic typed lang (Typescript or Python) and at least one or more static typed langs (Golang should be present if u will be able to like it in any case 😄 )

[buoyant seal]

different languages have a bit very different philosophies to using them... people don't manage to be able liking/using all different useful languages in the end. So, learn whatever u will be able to like. (or at least ones u will be able not to hate 😄 )
I don't recommend strongly betting onto Golang as main one though. it is better as Second language to learn. its job market pool is rather small in comparison to other langs

so far gathered Python and Golang at my belt. exploring Java and thinking if i should learn TS eventually.... i really wish having ability sharing code base between back and front

[severe leaf]

Hi there, i starte learning python A while ago as my first language, and while learning it i got A few thoughts about what would i need other than python to start looking for jobs when im done learning it, cause i think there are low chances that Just ability to Code in said language are enough, so here is my question
What would be the Best to learn alongside python to have the Best results while looking for jobs.
If that helps, i am from Poland and i didnt rly learn anything close to coding cause i am more of a graphic artist

[dim spruce]

sorry im new here too, it is really difficult when people recommend multiple options like for example "django OR Flask" etc. Can you perhaps give one single roadmap for a new comer that will contain perhaps THE best among these options? also wdym by much more...

[heady lagoon]

This field is tech
So things get updated over time, everyday there is something new in the market u may need to learn it in future so be ready to learn smh new everyday

[dim spruce]

in understand brother but take it as if im starting today and within around 1 year im going to go into a job, what do i need for this year atleast , maybe when i get a job ill keep learning new stuff etc....

[heady lagoon]

So let's say u r xyz lang ( python )

I would suggest u to follow a complete roadmap for it
Then u need to learn all necessary tools used in the field
U need have knowledge about the job u are seeking of what tools they use? U need to be familiar with them as well

And soft skills are always important ( personality, communication etc)

roadmap.sh check this out

[foggy carbon]

Hey there, I'm an intermediate python programmer, i know numpy, keras, pandas.. im looking forward to learn django

so once i complete django, i want to generate money with my skill

but the question is how? Who is going to hire me?

[white relic]

Consider looking at job listings in your area or the area where you want to get a job

that will give you an idea who's hiring and what for

[foggy carbon]

in my country there is no job related to programming

i want to work remotely

[white relic]

unlikely, but if so, you're going to have an extra difficult time of it

[foggy carbon]

why?

[white relic]

Companies don't hire international remote workers with anything like regularity

it's mostly disadvantage unless the worker brings skills that can't be gotten anywhere else

[foggy carbon]

what about internships and freelancing?

[white relic]

Remote international internships are probably scams

you can always freelance, but that is a hard road too.

People don't just throw money at you for knowing how to code. You need good connections or to get lucky with at least one big client

There's a reason many people start out working for someone else and switch to contract work after they are established if at all

[foggy carbon]

so there is no way to generate money remotely?

[white relic]

Every pathway has an element of luck to it. How much of your livelihood are you willing to trust to luck?

Sure, it's possible to get a great remote job with next to no experience, no connections and no degree. But it's not likely to be quick and easy.

[foggy carbon]

send me links to their websites if you have any

[white relic]

And if it takes three years, how will you live in the mean time?

[foggy carbon]

what about fiverr and upwork?

[fringe sphinx]

Just to add my usual take here: there are other jobs in tech besides just programming. QA, tech support, operations have lower barriers to entry. Don’t just look for programming jobs for an entry level position.

[vapid jay]

I know JavaScript and typescript, I also know a bit of python but I stopped learning it last year. I was gonna pick back up on it for backend to go along with Node, Go, and Django.

Thanks for all the information though. When I was learning python I got up to OOP so I still gotta relearn it and pick back up where I left off.

[buoyant seal]

Learning doing backend in TS has tremendous advantage of reusing code between front and back 🙂

Python will add for u small additional communicating problem
That is resolvable by generating TS from openapi of Fast API and django ninja
https://github.com/drwpow/openapi-typescript

[buoyant seal]

In the end TS and python on mypy are very similar to each other. Potentially u will not gain a lot in terms of professional growth
Except getting significantly wider job market accessability. Python back + front js/TS is very very popular combo

[buoyant seal]

In terms of pure professional growth u would have benefited I think may be more to finish up learning TS in back too if u a already that invested
And then diving to Golang/Java/Kotlin/rust

[buoyant seal]

!rule 5 6 9 , <@&831776746206265384> we have an identity theft scammer here.
rule 5: Do not provide or request help on projects that may violate terms of service, or that may be deemed inappropriate, malicious, or illegal.

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[weak hedge]

hey,
I am learning pygame and a lot of ther concepts of python
do you think it will be smart enough to learn c and c++ both at the same time

like
pyhton and c?

[buoyant seal]

what is your desired job role
and current level of knowledge regarding unit testing, design patterns, clean code and clean architecture?

[weak hedge]

I don't do job
I thought if it's learning new skills then I should type in the career discussion

[buoyant seal]

anyway, my opinion if u want to deepen your python knowledge, u should learn first how to unit test it, how to gather code in packages, how to type, how to wield python in average
knowing C / C++ i think for python is level optimization of very very last resort that should come last

[weak hedge]

Ok
So I should completely learn python first and then jump to c

[buoyant seal]

may be u will not even need C ever. what are your desired projects to acomplish? any goals u have in a future?

[weak hedge]

I want to become a machine learning engineer

[buoyant seal]

we have an expert onto C/C++ topic here, but it would be nice if u described why u need it before we called him/her 😄

[weak hedge]

I don't need any other xpert
I just want to learn more and more skills and languages to enhance my coding skills and logical thinking

[buoyant seal]

now we can safely call our local expert in C/C++ for python = @summer roost 🙂
Advice please @weak hedge about his question to learn C/C++ #career-advice message for the goal of becoming machine learning engineer.
i recommended first learning more trivial knowledge #career-advice message before diving into last level optimization with knowing C/C++ for python

[dim spruce]

guys i wanna ask a question for someone who has already been employed: I am fully new to programming and i want to employed within the next year, please finalize my path for me, based on how popular the languages are in terms of job market.......................................... Do i start html css javascript,, or Python

please dont give the usual answers like "depends on what you want", i want to pay the rent, even if its cancer itself. Give me ur own experiences in this matter what helped u get the job, rank them: html css js, or python.... so i can start tonight

[deft herald]

Since you don't want the "usual answer", then

flips coin

Python

[dim spruce]

no i meant from someone that has a job and had to make this decision, coz every single thread on the internet gives me options but it confuses me, so i wanted to know from someone who probably was in my position and now is employed after making the decision... are u?

[deft herald]

Yes but...obviously my skill set and interests are going to be different than yours. Honestly, i think distinguishing jobs by language can be a little pointless because there is so much variation

and probably in the majority of cases, you won't be using strictly one language either

[dim spruce]

sorry if i sound condescending im so frustrated brother coz i start one language for example python then get scared if within the next year the job is gonna get stolen by AI, then i go do html css javascript and get EVEN more scared coz ai can create an entire working website from its ass, so i wanted a real life opinion from someone who had to go search for a job....

[deft herald]

then get scared if within the next year the job is gonna get stolen by AI

I understand your concern, but this is not a real problem IMO. It will be a very long time before AI takes programming jobs

You should look at AI as another tool used by programmers.

[dim spruce]

what do u work in right now? maybe you can help me selec quickly

[deft herald]

I work in the wireless communication industry - automated testing and feature validation for 5G modems

[deft herald]

Do you want to stick with web dev or not?

[dim spruce]

i want to be skilled enough in the next year so that i have the best skillset, which is required by many employers so i can hopefully stay in the field for atleast 10 years and get even better later, i havent done either web dev or python, pls give me a way

[deft herald]

Do you have a degree?

[dim spruce]

yea bsc

[deft herald]

in what?

[dim spruce]

computer science, i got it last year and currently im helping my dad in his business but i might need to go and get another income source from my own

[deft herald]

I mean you should be good to start applying to any entry level software dev positions

[dim spruce]

nah, i dont have any programming knowledge

[deft herald]

but you have a degree in CS? How does that work now?

[dim spruce]

and most of the operating system stuff i forgot,

[true harness]

how did you not learn programming in a CS program

[dim spruce]

i learned concepts but never did a language

think of it as a scammed out university, that stole my money, that is why i wanna begin now, learn a language from scratch and after a year get into a job,

do i end it all?

i feel like if i pick a language now i have it in me to learn enough in a year to be either good at web dev or python etc,

[deft herald]

Web dev and python are not mutually exclusive 🙂 It's really hard for us to suggest a language when we don't know what even interests you

[dim spruce]

give me what you did and ill do it , think of u guys as my mentor

[dim spruce]

something that gives me skill to go and stand on my feet

[past root]

hey guys

[deft herald]

That's probably not going to be helpful. For instance, i got a degree in Electrical Engineering and got a job writing code for a hardware company

[dim spruce]

think of me as someone who doesnt have a bsc, just wants to enter from a diff field example business.... now i wanna learn programming. what steps did u do so now u can write code and can be employed etc

do i learn html css js, react mongodb etc then ill be job ready or python, django etc, UR own real life skills, something that i can sit on the interviiew, pass and go to my cubicle!

[deft herald]

Seems to me like you're stuck on web dev. So yeah, you can learn all of those. For front end, you'll need at least HTML CSS and JavaScript. Probably a good framework or two in there as well like react. For back end you can learn Python with Django or Node.js or typescript or whatever else is out there

I know you want me to just tell you to do something and you'll go out and be successful with it. That's not how it works though

[dim spruce]

im currently doing python, making small programs like rock,paper scissors , casino spin programs etc, that is why i asked, do i drop it and go immediately to web dev to land a job or will learning python be a good pathway to being skilled

[deft herald]

There are a bajillion jobs with python as a required skill out there. Not all just web dev either

[dim spruce]

thank you, then ill stick with python, hopefully i will come back here 1 year from now and see how it went,

[deft herald]

Sure. And even though you claim to have not learned anything at school; keep in mind you still do posses a degree in CS which already gives you a pretty good leg up. If you can find an entry level software job and know enough to demonstrate a technical competency, then go ahead and start applying now. If anything, you'll get practice with interviews while you also develop your programming skills and get a better understanding of what employers are looking for

[kindred oyster]

you might wanna consider what kind of jobs are offered in your area (where you want to do job)

usually webdev jobs are available in plenty. Which means you have more positions to apply for.

as to if AI will steal your job -> most likely not in the near future

[maiden star]

Which part of a programming language is used for beeing a dev?

[near ocean]

All of it? Do you want to rephrase your question maybe?

[true harness]

I mean, there are lesser used parts of any language

[harsh remnant]

Would CompTIA be any good certificate? I see it all the time with computer jobs but is it good for SWE?

[true harness]

no

[hard skiff]

hey everyone, im new here, am i alone in saying that I have been applying to hundreds of jobs this year and not 1 call back or response?

[deft herald]

Hundreds of apps, but not one callback? Something must be wrong. Complete mismatch between your resume and the job requirements you're applying to perhaps

[white relic]

there is no generally accepted certificate for SWE other than a four year college degree

[true harness]

not alone, but something can probably be improved

[hard skiff]

I know something can always be improved, but man not 1. It’s crazy

[hard skiff]

I know. I’ve only been applying on indeed. I’m sure I can make a bunch of changes but it feels weird.

[fringe sphinx]

You can post your resume here for review, remove whatever personal info you want.

[deft herald]

Oh yeah, don't just use indeed. I've had the best luck applying directly on company careers pages tbh.

[harsh remnant]

Jobs are hard man. You have to realize you’re also competing against other applicants and others could have more of the skills of what the company wants. I’m not surprised. I mean hell I’ve been trying to get a part time job at restaurants as dishwasher and they don’t reply me back 😅.

[hard skiff]

I’ve worked at restaurants, sometime you just need to walk in ask for a manager and say “I’m here for the job”. I got hired with no experience as a cook doing that

[harsh remnant]

Oh fr? Ya I’ve been applying on indeed for those restaurants jobs but they want someone with experience or food safety certificate but I ain’t paying 100$ for some part time dishwasher job

[summer roost]

taking that advice literally will not help you land a tech job, at least not at the overwhelming majority of companies. Walking into their offices and saying "I'd like to apply for $job" will get you a funny look, and then they'll tell you what URL to use to apply.

[plush summit]

venv/ is also placed a lot in a .gitignore file right?

ok nice than i got 2/2 then i can start to comit and push 🙂

[summer roost]

this is the #career-advice channel

[plush summit]

oh mb that it was discussion

[spiral lintel]

hi

[vapid jay]

I am going to be going for my first junior developer job. Im building projects and building my portfolio but I am unsure how to start making open source contributions. do i pick well established repos like django and try to help with docs or do i look for smaller projects. do employers care about it?

[dense mesa]

More impact with smaller projects. Not all employers will look at it but most "good" ones will, however you define that

[dire notch]

https://pybuddy.com/blog/senior-python-developer-new-noriker-power-ltd/

[white relic]

!rule ad

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[celest kite]

<@&831776746206265384> everything is reacted to with an "F" "U"

[harsh remnant]

I am looking to put some good certificates on my resume. What do you guys recommend for software engineering?

[true harness]

none

[celest kite]

I've never heard of that cert. Where do you get it from?

[true harness]

"ya corp"

[sour tartan]

i said something today and now I'm wondering how true it is: Bootcamp learners may have an advantage in their careers over academic learners because real-world learning is like a bootcamp, not like a college lecture. Academic learners leave college and will never be taught like that again. They have to learn a new style.

[true harness]

hm. it's an interesting idea, but i'm not sure it holds up. college students don't only learn through lecture. in many CS courses, you have labs, where you'll do programming assignments. often they won't be directly related to what is learned in lecture, so there's a lot of independent learning necessary. also, maybe better in #pedagogy ?

[celest kite]

I think the question surrounding bootcamps for me is retention. It's like cramming for a test. You might retain enough to pass. But how much will you retain long term?

[modern ore]

Don't some bootcamps help you connect to employers to help you get a job in x month?

[sour tartan]

sure, i think bootcamps might not always succeed. My question is whether their learning style is more like real-world job learning or not.

[modern ore]

In my opinion, "software engineering" major will give you more real world experience compared to bootcamps for swe

but it kinda depends on the school but that also depends on the bootcamp

[true harness]

what do you base that on? from what i've seen, software engineering majors are basically just CS majors missing a few theoretical courses and adding in a few practical courses

[modern ore]

waterloo 🤔 then they have seasons just for internships 😹 but cs also do internships too

[true harness]

yeah i have seen some of these, but i'm not sure how realistic the "guaranteed job placement" type thing is. i've also heard they're somewhat predatory

[modern ore]

maybe some 🤷‍♀️

[true harness]

that might just be a co-op program thing, not necessarily swe vs cs

[fringe sphinx]

It is an interesting point... I think few people would argue against high school is poor/inefficient prep for college, college is poor/inefficient prep for SWEs. I'm not saying it's worthless, merely that it's inefficient / or skewed or something like that.

[buoyant seal]

if your software engineering is related to backend development or devops engineering
U could have fun getting AWS certificates. from AWS itself
one of rare certificates that matter 😁

[near ocean]

"help", theres a small asterisk next to that and even smaller font next to the asterisk that say its 100% up to you to find yourself a job and what they actually do is the bare minimum of maybe connecting you to some guy at X company on linkedin

[buoyant seal]

if they would have been able to help findind a job, they would have found it for themselves and did not work in a bootcamp

[buoyant seal]

u omit important variables out of this equation.
Academic learners survived for 4 years. They learned how to learn any stuff in a STEM degree, whatever they liked or not, they learned to learn it to sufficient level to pass or getting in any way it for 4 years without being expelled. And university requirements are far higher than any bootcamp ever has.
Add here that academic learners learned fundamentals usually throughly and having good foundation to learn further. Any brain dead academic learner from CS degree can solve leetcoding tasks of easy to medium level without big problems pretty much for example.
And add here that with all this training, survival rate in university is way better. from 30 to 60% people work by speciality... and around good 50% survive to graduation.
They had 4 or more years to adapt themselves to programming, to read code, to write messy big programms in many different simple applications. It helped a lot.
In average university graduate has trained somehow skill to debug coding issues and finding materials without problems
university promotes studying on their own too. Those who can't adapt, get themselves expelled pretty much.

at the same time in average bootcamp person is not having enough practice to read code, or write more than 50 code lines
and not able to debug for his life, because he was often spoonfeeded with answers.
and surviving rate... not very that high looking too.
in average not able to solve even easy simple leetcoding tasks. Simple. easy. tasks.

Whatever avantage bootcamp person could be having, it was burried under amount of disadvantages

[digital fjord]

I do think that you can significantly better than a Uni education if the goal is to be a qualified SWE in theory, and I am willing to believe that some bootcamps are good enough to do that, but definitely not all of them.

[buoyant seal]

any person can be significantly better than any education if he is ultra dedicated self study person.
do u need bootcamp or anything else at this point though

[fringe sphinx]

I think Ned posed a different question though: just to requote him: "My question is whether their learning style is more like real-world job learning or not."

Lambda U / Bloomtech ,https://www.bloomtech.com/about> , for instance, talks a big game about their vocational program... not "bootcamp" (but similar) and not traditional degree programs.

Underneath that point, I think, is the corrolary: is University/College learning unlike real-world job learning? (which I think we'd all agree is true)

(I'm on the side of: College is terribly poorly designed, but it's the best we've got. Bootcamps seem largely predatory. But, I find the vocational programs very intriguing)

[sour tartan]

tbh, i don't know the answer to my question. I don't know what college programs are like now. Some are too academic for the working world..

[hard skiff]

that was the cook job not a tech job

[summer roost]

ah, I sort of assumed you were suggesting that the same thing might work for tech jobs, but that may have been more in my head than in what you wrote. Other people in this channel have suggested doing that to get tech jobs, and I think it's terrible advice for that - but within the context of getting a job at a restaurant, I agree that it's not bad advice.

[elder forge]

bloomtech sure talks big, but their wikipedia page is interesting It currently faces several lawsuits for deceptive marketing, allegedly lying about how many students find jobs, among other issues.

[fringe sphinx]

speaking of, u of phoenix got slammed today too: The Biden administration is canceling nearly $37 million of ... debt ... because it found that the for-profit school misled students about job prospects.

[chilly void]

i'm curious to ask, how worth is it to pursue programming now with the onset of AI? i don't make much of it personally but i'd like to hear what yall think

[sour tartan]

AI won't replace us any time soon

[chilly void]

coming from a vet this is comforting, appreciated

[celest kite]

I can confirm that nedbat is not a veterinarian

(that I know of, at least)

[chilly void]

veteran mb

[peak halo]

I need to make a pin about the perceived threat of LLMs replacing devs

[celest kite]

Are you going to replace us Stel?

[late flame]

I don't think Bootcamp learning really works. Once a grad gets into the real world they'll get the real world style learning anyways.

But honestly I don't think bootcamps are particularly unique in terms of what they teach or how. They just advertise themselves to a different group of people, and have way worse outcomes.

[white lion]

@plucky kindle

[analog turtle]

for data science at least, there's just way way too much to learn to jam it all into a bootcamp effectively

[late flame]

I think that's true of any discipline. Bootcamps are attractive to people that want a high paying job with little effort, but no such job actually exists.

[analog turtle]

i think a more charitable interpretation is that people are busy and and working hard at their current job, and are rightly leery of the expense and time commitment of a full school degree

[late flame]

Yeah but it's only this industry where you see so many bootcamps, and it's also an industry known for being very lucrative. I don't think that's a coincidence.

I do think the bootcamps themselves are mostly predatory though.

[peak halo]

Another consideration is that even if bootcamps do impart useful skills, prospective employers need to perceive value in having completed a bootcamp. And that doesn't seem to generally be the case.

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, I’ve known some very motivated people who did extensive boot camps because they wanted a career change. One of them was in technical marketing and career changed into software product mgmt after a coding bootcamp.

(But not a great story since they didn’t end in a SWE role)

[smoky quest]

I have seen it as a cheap way to boost your DEI and to prioritize throughput over expertise. Would you hire someone like that to develop the next generation of LLM? Definitely not. Would you hire someone like that to wrap chatgpt's api? That's could be a cheap way to have more throughput without having to go into +12 TZs

[modern ore]

How is DEI counted

[smoky quest]

surveys

[modern ore]

Nah i mean for hiring purposes

[smoky quest]

what about it?

[modern ore]

nvm 🛌

i am trying to learn double bfs

[smoky quest]

If a team is only composed of people with the same traits, that's not good

[modern ore]

Aren't dei counted as race and gender, what would be differnet traits that are different in different race and gender

[smoky quest]

many different ways to count DEI

[modern ore]

🤔

[smoky quest]

If everyone comes from stanford, that's not good

[modern ore]

When typically talking about DEI, we are talking about giving people equal opportunities no? (in tech)

[smoky quest]

It's so loaded that you could attribute any specific pet peeve to it.

But at its core is to make sure teams are composed of diverse opinions. That means that problems will not be tackled in a uniform way and the team benefits from people coming from different background (gender, race, school, country, etc.). That helps explore the space solutions better

[modern ore]

tbh idc about this topic, i m getting annoyed i dont understand this code 😭

[smoky quest]

If you have 5 white dudes from Stanford, you will most likely have 5 people with similar experiences, same teacher and the very same way to approach problems.

[modern ore]

I like to say its better to treat an individual by themselves not by their group they come from. I dont wanna continue, but this effects asian people a lot, asia is very diverse, and aren't seen as "DEI material" even though there is like hundreds of types of asians 😹 (in tech)

[smoky quest]

It's the same regardless of your age, gender or sexual orientation.
A white person from the USA will be very different from a white person from Spain. Which is no different from a black person in the USA will be very different from someone from Nigeria.
To make matter worse, you have everything in-between.
Which is no different from Asia itself, which doesn't even mean much as it covers quite a bit of countries and culture.

That's why I like to frame that problem in terms of diversity of thoughts and contributing factors. But it doesn't necessarily show well in performative settings (ex: pictures on the company website)

And to make matter worse, this is extremely distorted by the views of the USA which has had a very specific history and context. Not all countries share the same context and history

[modern ore]

Yeah thats what I am saying, and I am trying to say the "point of view" based on "race" which dei uses in tech isn't a good point

[smoky quest]

if it forces people to think about and to talk about it, it's not so bad

[modern ore]

But people dont think about it or talk about it, 😹, you will get shut down from talkin about it

Most cs communities will shun you from this topic

[smoky quest]

it's not a problem if you are considerate and not an ass

[modern ore]

cscareerdev is a huge community, and it might not represent the whole world, just wanted to show some idea what I mean

[smoky quest]

not sure what's wrong there?
Most people are inconsiderate and the rants become about some weird ass conspiracies. So obviously mods will have a bias towards rants

[modern ore]

I would like it say rant is used in a exaggerated way, but most of the time from what i've seen, people get punished for even questioning the topic, and a lot of the times its seen as complaining and coping that you can't get a job 😹

[smoky quest]

I can't really speak for specific communities' moderation policies

[modern ore]

true

Anyways, it doesn't matter, I can't change anything so all I can do is improve my self

[smoky quest]

but yeah, if you have a hard time finding a job, 99% of the time the problem is with you, not because of asians/woman/black/lgbtqia+/white/uwu/whatever conspiracy or DEI

[modern ore]

I agree with that

[muted bridge]

I’m currently double-majoring in math and programming, and I’m wondering if any of you have any ideas for a math-based project involving matplotlib

[dense mesa]

<@&831776746206265384> seems like spam and/or phishing

[glacial sky]

Chill guys just checking my tracker push for my site!

[smoky quest]

on a #career-advice discussion channel?

[harsh remnant]

Do resumes have to be coherent? Is it good to include job experiences that are not related to the current job you're applying or have sports awards you won years ago as your awards or certificates that doesn't match the job?

As someone who's just starting computer science. I don't have much experience related to computer science so is it okay to include stuff that's not related to show that I at least have some good team work or communication skills? I just feel like my resume is all over the place

Because at this point I'm just putting everything I can to fill up my resume

[smoky quest]

think about it in terms of: "That person has 30s to get an idea of who am I. What do I tell them?"

[summer roost]

!warn 845723653055840287 Spamming links to your site in random channels violates several of our #rules. Please stop doing this.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @glacial sky.

[summer roost]

for your very first job, things like sports awards can be interesting to list. Sometimes someone might get an interview just because the hiring manager thinks they sound like an interesting person to talk to. I wouldn't keep them on there once you have enough relevant stuff to talk about, but having some unrelated but interesting stuff on your resume is much better than a bunch of blank space that makes it look like you've got nothing to say about yourself

[blissful wraith]

hey guys created my first gig in fiverr any idea on how to get clients

[celest kite]

Good luck

[hexed hazel]

can i use flet?

is it good?

[gritty rivet]

It's hard to give resume feedback in the abstract. Post anonomized screenshots.

You do want your resume to be as focused as possible on the specific job you are applying to. Emphasize projects etc. over irrelevant stuff

[graceful crystal]

guys

[thin zinc]

are w3 certs actually useful in anyway?

like if I got a certification in python with w3 would people care less about it than a pcep?

[mighty belfry]

i need help

[near ocean]

By w3 do you mean w3schools? If yes then no theyre worthless

[pine sleet]

I don't think even a pcep is worth too much in the industry

[true harness]

does w3c have certs 🤔

[near ocean]

No that im aware of or can find online

[vapid jay]

w3schools certs would be the best

[near ocean]

This isnt the channel for trolling

[proper coyote]

is there guys who need tg bot?

[pine sleet]

no

[ocean pine]

I’m in a career adjacent to, but not really in, cs (people in my career path sometimes need to code, and it’s sometimes a job requirement, but not always). I am learning python, but don’t know how I would describe my skill level on my resume. Since certifications kind of mean nothing to employers, how do I explain what level I’m at on a resume? (And actually, how do I know what level I’m at?)

[pine sleet]

Are you trying to pivot into a CS job? What's your educational background like?

[ocean pine]

Math degree, and no I want to stay in my field but am curious how yall describe/prove your skill level on a resume. And I imagine if coding is less of a main focus for my industry, perhaps that means I would need to do things slightly differently on my resume.

[crisp jewel]

Hello everyone hru? I have a Google interview for the STEP program in 2 to 3 weeks and I've never had a coding interview before. Could anyone give me some tips and resources to help me prepare for my first coding interview? Thank you

[fervent grove]

some ppl like to do leetcode, however some google persons on YT say they wouldnt learn leetcode braindead but rather problem-solving as a whole so rather more project orientated

[fervent grove]

good question and i struggle myself with no main CS studies, so i stick with projects and references i got u could also give a "list" of ur best python libraries in the coverletter

[near ocean]

Theres no list of the "best libraries", maybe popular yes

[fervent grove]

i mean from a personal standpoint

[crisp jewel]

Ok thank you

[near ocean]

Most familiar you mean? Then sure

[fervent grove]

but best thing is really to implement some projects into the application process

[ocean pine]

What do you mean by that?

[fervent grove]

depends on prjects u did so far, i did a jobscraper and data analytics of that so was easy to speak bout that in the application process

[ocean pine]

Oh very cool, thank you for the advice!

[fervent grove]

no worries just think bout a way u can somehow show ur passion for the field

what would u do with math a bit more specific maybe some ppl here can relate

[ocean pine]

I’m an actuary analyst, so mostly statistics or I guess data analysis related to insurance

[fervent grove]

ah ok maybe someone can give deeper insight cause im a normal data scientist

[terse lion]

Friends, does an AI generated CV look bad in industry?

[true harness]

probably

[open badger]

Hey, can someone tell me how to remember things so I won't mess up in the interview?

[near ocean]

Practice and then practice some more

[true harness]

bring notes

[open badger]

I am doing that but is there anything else that I can do?

[open badger]

Ok, this one I never did

[near ocean]

Idk if you would be allowed notes in an interview

[open badger]

Don't say something scary as this

[deft herald]

Really? It's not an exam

I mean it sorta is but idk

[gleaming rover]

what can i use python for?
ik its used for like scripting
but my main langauge is C#
ive only made simple console applications in python

[open badger]

First what do you want to do with python? I mean what's your goal?

[gleaming rover]

ngl idrk i wanna automate stuff

[open badger]

Give me an example

[gleaming rover]

like i wanna build an app in c# that is like a smarthome app and have python control the stuff like lights and all that since ik that python is strong for automating stuff

[open badger]

see you got the answer

[gleaming rover]

well yeah true lol, but how would i get started with learning python automation

[open badger]

do you know basics?

[gleaming rover]

and also how would i link my C# commands to do python tasks like if you press a button

yeah ik most of the basics of python

[open badger]

It's easy python is mostly used for the backend so don't worry about that

[gleaming rover]

oh ok

[open badger]

I don't know about mobile applications, but I do know about web application or websites, if you prefer.

[gleaming rover]

is there an IDE that'll let me create apps in python? like how flutter uses dart, and how WPF uses xaml and C#

[open badger]

Hey dude wanna talk in private 20 secs timer killing the mood

[gleaming rover]

ok bet, ive never made a web app before but im learning html and css in school

[vapid jay]

It's a good question. For human languages in Europe is A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2. What is it in Python?

[vapid jay]

AI will be better than humans soon (if it isn't already) and it will be sub-optimal not to write it with an AI..

[vapid jay]

Repetition. So you remember.

[vapid jay]

What are basics?

[true harness]

unfortunately there's no industry recognized test for knowledge in Python (or other programming language) like there are for spoken language. it's hard to imagine what it would look like, though I don't know what the English equivalent looks like

though actually, I have seen some OAs accept results from other tests. I think codesignal. so maybe it's possible to not need an OA for a bunch of companies, but one standardized OA like an SAT equivalent

[ocean pine]

So what do cs people put on their resumes? Just “proficient in python” and you dig into specifics in an interview?

[true harness]

projects and past experience

[scarlet belfry]

I guess its going to be very obvious if you dont know what you are doing if you get a coding or technical interview

[late flame]

Oh indeed. It's literally impossible to fake your way through them.

[late flame]

Cover letters are so simple to make that AI seems like overkill. But also most recruiters don't read them anyways so it probably doesn't matter

[true harness]

I think they said CV

[scarlet belfry]

I feel like the purpose of a cover letter is to prove that you 'knew the assignment', its like one of those hoops you jump through to prove you aren't completely useless but ultimately it isnt that important. I feel like these days a computer is filtering your application anyway so its probably not even getting into the hands of a real person in most cases to read it.

[fringe sphinx]

I see lots of resumes. Can’t remember last time I read a cover letter, they’re rare to begin with (in US)

[spark cobalt]

Is this an actual thing?

In my interviews only similar thing I brought was just scratch paper but even then I only needed to use once

What did you bring notes on?

[open badger]

Thanks to you guys.

[open badger]

Probably those concepts that helps one to understand how to solve atleast one DSA problem.

[somber pawn]

just to elaborate on my point, it's literally impossible to study in the UK after Brexit, and student fees are ridiculous.

[near ocean]

Non-EU students have been paying these fees and going through the same visa struggles since the dawn of time

[somber pawn]

I don't see how it helps the situation.

[near ocean]

Its not impossible if people have been doing it for decades

[somber pawn]

I don't really get you, you mean before brexit?

[spark cobalt]

People are doing it now too.

[near ocean]

Yes, international students have been paying these fees before brexit

[somber pawn]

now, European students are doing the same.

[near ocean]

So its not impossible

[somber pawn]

with scholarship?

[somber pawn]

okay, 27,000 pounds for one year is a little bit too much for me, maybe I'm broke.

[spark cobalt]

I seriously doubt 100% of people in your situation or similar all have scholarships.

[somber pawn]

then they have more money. 😄

I don't think most people can afford 27,200.

[spark cobalt]

Okay maybe you are the poorest person to not have scholarship to ever touch university in the UK.

[near ocean]

You dont have to study in the UK

[spark cobalt]

My point being, you probably haven't explored all your options. Perhaps there's some student loans you can take, or some other scholarships to get, etc.

[somber pawn]

yeah maybe

[spark cobalt]

Ok it sounds like you already gave up. In which I don't think I'm equipped to help. Good luck.

[near ocean]

Why are you considering the UK in the first place

[somber pawn]

well, I think they are quite good.

[near ocean]

Not 27k good though?

[somber pawn]

I don't know, this is why I asked how other people dealt with it.
Some people applied for SAAS.

[somber pawn]

Thank you!

[old yacht]

@ivory talon watch dm pls🙂

[ivory talon]

at least send that kind of message in offtopic instead of channels with specific discussion topics in the future

[old yacht]

Sorry

[peak halo]

how would an AI-generated CV differ from one that you write yourself? because what matters is that your CV makes it easy for prospective employers to figure out things about you that are true.

if you (for example) find a job listing and ask ChatGPT to write a resume for a good-fit candidate for that listing, and it produces a CV that isn't grounded in your experience, and you submit that and make it to the interview, the interviewer will figure out that your resume was deceptive, and you will have wasted everyone's time.

[true harness]

I didn't, but I had a notepad and my resume to reference

[spark cobalt]

[autumn owl]

If the AI makes mistakes it looks bad
Sorta says "I confidently took a shortcut I didn't know how to use and it messed things up"
So if you do, just make sure to double check it haha

[peak halo]

What would it mean for an AI to "make a mistake" in the context of generating a resume? I can think of a few ways:

• Produce a grammatically incorrect sentence
• Produce a sentence that doesn't "make sense"
  With modern generative language models, these are pretty much not going to happen. Continuing on, a "mistake" could also be:
• Produce statements about the resume subject that are factually incorrect
• Produce content that has the "generative AI vibe"
  But ultimately, resumes are not a school assignment. Your ability to write a resume is not being evaluated. What matters is that the resume effectively communicates ones experience (truthfully) as it pertains to a job listing. If a generative AI helps you do that, it probably won't even be that apparent that the AI tool was used.

[late flame]

I just feel that using AI is ultimately pointless. Making your CV is honestly not a difficult task and fixing what the AI spits out is going to be more effort than it's worth.

How do I get it to spit out accurate statements without feeding it a bunch of accurate statements about me? If I'm going to do that then I might as well just make the CV to begin with.

[tardy ridge]

I'd also wager that in a CV or resume there are different things you'd wanna emphasize to maximize probability of success, so I guess a relevant question for someone considering use of AI is, will it use the info you feed it and create something that does highlight your best skills, for instance

[true harness]

i think using AI to rewrite sentences you've already written to sound better isn't unreasonable

[coarse crag]

I agree. Some people aren't very good at expressing who they are. AI might help them to word their sentences and paragraphs to be clearer and better.

Although for the general population, I do think most people have decent grammatical and language skill enough to be able to write a proper resume.

At the end of the day it depends on the person itself. Some people are so good with the usage of languages that they can write better paragraphs than AI.

[late flame]

How do you define better? And if you're able to understand why it's better, why didn't you just do it yourself? The skills necessary to judge the quality of a sense are the same skills necessary to write it yourself.

[true harness]

maybe it's less awkward, better word choice, etc. they aren't the same skills though. it's easier to verify that something is better than to actually make it better.

[coarse crag]

i put random info and wrote an awkward resume intro. it actually wrote me a much better resume intro.

might need a little modification to use more common words. but overall i think it improved the awkward resume by a lot.

[true harness]

meh. i wouldn't admit you're reserved socially at all, especially not on a resume

[coarse crag]

lol i mean they're not supposed to write that in a resume to begin with. haha. it's an awkward resume. i was just trying to come up with an example of how ai can rewrite it to be less awkward.

[late flame]

it just reads like you went a little too hard on a thesauraus

[peak halo]

!otn a going hard on a thesaurus

[inner wren]

:ok_hand: Added going-hard-on-a-thesaurus to the names list.

[muted bridge]

should i make a portfolio before making my first comp sci project, or should I hold it off

[white relic]

your first project would presumably be the start of your portfolio, no?

won't be much of a portfolio with no content

[true harness]

I too am confused by the question

[tulip fox]

You mean your resume?

[prime depot]

test.

[stuck moss]

Is anyone from Bangalore, India??..

I am moving to that city ,

if anyone knows about banglore , pls DM

[nocturne coral]

What is the difference between CS under the faculty of engineering vs CS under arts and science and CS in applied science?

[vapid jay]

Which interestingly doesn't say much about the quality of one's code

[vapid jay]

No, as many employed engineers struggle with simple coding tests, as proved by the need to ask FizzBuzz. And with ChatGPT... the delta between solo coding and assisted coding will widen further..

[vapid jay]

And will be an upgrade for most sentences

[vapid jay]

Look at the course curriculum. At my Uni right now, for example.. Fundamentals of Programming uses Processing under "arts and science" and uses Python under data science and software engineering.

[nocturne coral]

If I have a CS degree that is under engineering and someone else has a CS degree but under arts and science which one will HR pick

And let's say he has 0 experience and I have 1 week of job experience

[near ocean]

for what? a cashier role at greggs? what job are you applying to

[nocturne coral]

Software developer or coding related IT related

[near ocean]

Why would it matter whether its a BA or a BSc or a BEng

[dawn vapor]

Hello! Hola! Ciao!
Has anyone here completed GSOC internship in 'science and medicine' section?

Especially those focusing on cancer tech, genetics, etc

Whom do I check out for GSOC related stuff and queries?

[dawn vapor]

Me being a bioinformatics student is the reason for this specific question

[nocturne coral]

What is the difference between all of them then ?

[near ocean]

🤷 it doesnt matter

[nocturne coral]

They are all the same

[true harness]

what can?

[still condor]

well, the only way you can assess that is by looking at their code

Which means looking at their personal projects or a take-home task

Or programming on the interview

[true harness]

is it true that many employed engineers struggle with fizzbuzz? you usually hear that story about applicants, not working engineers

[buoyant seal]

applicants of course 😄 if they struggle with fizzbuzz, they aren't working engineers automatically.

[near ocean]

😬 seen more employed applicants fuck up fizzbuzz than new grads

[buoyant seal]

Also... if ChatGPT is strongly affecting their work, i think they aren't engineers too 🤔

unless u call Prompt Engineer as a job role

[buoyant seal]

this statement may become invalid in some amount of years

but not today 😄

[true harness]

in either case I'm not sure it's fruitful to try and become an employed engineer that struggles with fizzbuzz

[eager jungle]

Forbidden in engineering community...

[fringe sphinx]

ime, there's always been a non-trivial percentage of candidates who are just not prepared to be a SWE. It's gotten better in past few years (while I hate leetcode/dsa emphasis, it has increased the coding experience of the average grad). For working engineers, the real reason for "fizzbuzz" like filters is to catch the liars: the people who might have "engineer" in the title and a CS degree, but who haven't written code in years.

This was particularly bad for me in the 2010-2020 range... the labor market was tight, so there were very few "good" applicants that came through.

[true harness]

due to the recession in 2008-9? how did that compare to 2020? i heard from some people that it was a lot worse after 2008

[fading stratus]

Need help everyone

[fringe sphinx]

2008 was largely a non-event for me because I was growing a startup during that time, so I was on the "employed and hiring" during the middle of that

The problem I saw during 08/09 was that most of the candidates I'd see were terrible: the people who were first to be laid off.

I'd almost never see a working engineer (a senior) who had any quality. if they were good, I suppose, they found jobs quickly.

Or I'd have to interview 10 to get 1 actual candidate. So, I ended up just interviewing college grads. Average quality was better, just due to the game.

[gritty rivet]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[hearty island]

interview today, associate project mgr

let's see what happens

[timid pumice]

good luck 👍

[hearty island]

thanks!

[peak halo]

@vapid jay please do experimental commands in #bot-commands

[vapid jay]

Sorry I was looking for that channel thanks!

[hidden bloom]

CAN SOMEONE JUDGE MY RESPONSE TO THE FOLLOWING PROMPT? AND LMK IF IT'S BAD??? The prompt is this: " (To allow us to best match you to one of our teams please tell us about the following, (if applicable) - What are you currently studying? - Your areas of interest - Any career goals - Particular areas of the council you have an interest in spending time with).". My response to the prompt is this: I'm currently studying Computer Science; and I'm interested in anything remotely related to it - whether that be a role as an IT support assistant, Data analyst apprentice, junior systems administrator etc.

I’m applying here specifically as one of my main career goals is to work at a council, or any non-profit organisation for that matter. Reason being, is I've been a girl scout all my life prior to university; since I've found that giving back to the community has always been extremely fulfilling. So much so, that I continue to do so: through volunteering as IT support at... library; teaching kids from disadvantaged backgrounds on how to improve their literacy skills through the ... scheme; and helping first years in my course as a ...Mentor. Being in an environment where profit isn't the sole goal is where I'm happiest (I perform best??? - maybe add this instead???)

Moreover, I'm completely fine with working with any and all areas of the council; not necessarily just the technological sector. Nowadays, everything requires technology anyways so I'm sure my skills could still be applicable outside of it. As long as the role is tech related, I'm more than happy to be a part of it.

[fringe sphinx]

What’s the job title that you’re responding to?

[viscid urchin]

[hidden bloom]

there isn't one..in specific. it's whatever the council has open so they'll match me

[fringe sphinx]

maybe try to lead off with a more concise summary? Something crisp, which is kinda difficult because there's a lot of points you're trying to make. Some ideas: "I'm studying Computer Science and am open to any tech-related roles at the council. ..." or "As a Computer Science major and a Girl Scout, I am looking for an opportunity to develop my skills while continuing to give back to the community". Just thinking out loud.

This isn't a channel for OT memes. Maybe hit #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[flint harness]

That's a career advice

[ivory sluice]

it's not - please don't post such things again

[flint harness]

So you want enemies instead?

[vapid jay]

is someone here know a way to automessage on discord

[flint harness]

"I don't have enemies", literally career advice

[ivory sluice]

it's very low quality career advice, if you're being sincere. if you're not, quit the shitposting

[ivory sluice]

such things are likely to be against discord's terms of service (and this is also the wrong channel)

[idle latch]

I have a question for those that are already working as Software engineer. Do you need to know statistics and probability to "be" or "be a better" software engineer ? does that make you more "qualified" ?

[limpid grove]

For GODS SAKE HOW DO I INSTALL MODULES

[peak halo]

see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[hidden bloom]

this is about as concise as i could get it tbh. i'm no longer a girl scout so that doesn't work. i was one tho which is what i'm trying to mention? i want to include my previous experience with helping out the community which i try to do there

[true harness]

what council is this?

[gritty rivet]

Generally not important but could be very important depending on the role

[hidden bloom]

a local one... nothing major (small town council)

[graceful basalt]

how much does a python engineer get paid?

[slender trout]

So I'm 33 nearly 34 years old currently work in finance but wanna learn python, is it too late for me to switch careers now at this age and start again from jr developer?

[graceful basalt]

No, i think you've the chance to switch

It's easy to learn, but don't forget to practice

[slender trout]

But who would hire a 34-35 year old with no experience:(

[near ocean]

You have experience in finance
Python is just a tool, no one's hiring "hammer users" they're hiring carpenters
Learn to do things with python

[pine sleet]

Too broad to give a useful estimate

[buoyant seal]

depends on

• job role
• country (including available work permits)
• education (including if having degree)
• tech skill levels (related to your job role, besides knowing python itself. Skills should be having sufficient depth to them 😉 )
• soft skills (including natural languages, communicating skills, ability to gather requirements out of other people and negotiating skills to sell yourself for better price)
• years of commercial experience (also depends on working in which job roles and having which types of tasks solved).
  salary can range from 3600$ to stuff like 150'000$ per year

[smoky quest]

There are many opportunities to combine finance and python and you just happen to have quite a bit of experience in finance.
So focusing on these areas would improve your odds rather than focusing on non-finance areas

[vapid jay]

<a> hi </a>

how to do this?

[slender trout]

a lot of the finance roles require SQL but thats not something i wanna learn

[gritty rivet]

I got my first dev job in my 40s, and I'm at a fintech startup. I rarely use SQL but the basics are extremely useful to know and very easy to learn

I didn't have finance experience (I was coming from IT support) but it would have definitely made me an even more attractive candidate

[slender trout]

thats awesome! where did you learn python from ?

[gritty rivet]

I taught myself a lot of basics but then I did the Nucamp Backend bootcamp

It's pretty cheap as far as bootcamps go... covers Python, SQL, DevOps (mostly just how to deploy stuff to cloud). The main portfolio project was to build a REST API with Flask

[slender trout]

so cool! im thinking of doing the harvard CS50 Python course to begin with

[gritty rivet]

Regarding this I would say age is primarily relavent only as it relates to your salary requirements. If you're expecting to start out at mid to high 6 figures then yes it's going to be very challenging to make the switch (not impossible, just a lot more upskilling upfront)

[gritty rivet]

Haven't done it but it does look cool. I probably wouldn't pay for the certificate because nobody cares

[slender trout]

tbh im in finance right now and im not even earning 6 figures, im from the uk

id be happy with something between 50k to 75k if i have to lower my salary a little from what im on now this would be the range id be happy to start at but not sure if its still to high ?

[nocturne coral]

What is the difference between CS under the faculty of engineering vs CS under arts and science and CS in applied science And If I have a CS degree that is under engineering and someone else has a CS degree under arts and science which one is better?

[gritty rivet]

I don't know about UK, salaries there always look shockingly low to me. But when I came out of bootcamp 2 years ago, my starting salary was 75k $USD

[gritty rivet]

Probably not that important, you have to look at the specifics of the program

[nocturne coral]

Ok but is computer science under engineering still computer science or is it computer engineering?

[gritty rivet]

The program is named whatever its named. It's just a name. You have to look at the list of required courses and stuff like that

You can also look at graduate outcomes on LinkedIn

[slender trout]

wow! thats pretty decent if you ask me, yeah salary here is not good compared to the US. I think id be lucky if i can get 40k as a new developer !

[nocturne coral]

👍

[near ocean]

The department doesnt matter, would you say no to a CS degree from oxford just because its a BA?

[fringe sphinx]

Usually it’s just a difference in the curriculum: a ba would normally have a few more humanities requirements. Speaking only for myself: I don’t care about ba vs bs (as a hiring manager)

[dense mesa]

What are you doing in finance, how much experience do you have in it?

[slender trout]

IM A FINANCE ANALYST I HAVE 10 YEARS EXPERIENCE

woops sorry caps

[dense mesa]

IBD, HF, PE, VC? What sectors/caps are you looking at primarily and are you a senior analyst or junior

[slender trout]

im more like an accountant we just called analysts i work mainly in FP&A i work in FMCG a drinks company

[dense mesa]

Financial analyst → data science analyst → Dev is doable, from FP&A it's more challenging

Look into automating your current workflows and business processes at the company. There must be dev teams that can help you with this stuff and get you exposed to tech

[slender trout]

im working a power bi project at the moment its exposing me to a lot of the tech side of things which has peaked my interest in to coding

[vapid jay]

do you guys find workplace processes to be mostly undocumented and no one explains them to you or is it just my place

[dense mesa]

Nice that sounds good, work hard to learn stuff and ask sensible questions, try and get exposure to more tech

[dense mesa]

Welcome to software engineering unfortunately

[gritty rivet]

It varies widely. You can do your part to make sure things get documented by explaining the need or just doing it. If this is important enough to you and it's really a problem you may need to find a different company where the culture is better. But it's always going to be a challenge

[fringe pine]

!warn @dusty kernel That's not an appropriate thing to ask here.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @dusty kernel.

[dusty kernel]

💀

what channel do i ask it in then?

[fringe pine]

You don't

[dusty kernel]

damn fr?

[fringe pine]

Yep. Make sure to read and follow our #code-of-conduct if you want to remain a member.

[vapid jay]

Hello, @modest canopy
As a senior full stack developer, I always seeking to learn and develop and move forward.
I have developed divers set of strong skills to contribute significantly to any kind of project.
Whether it is Python, Golang, Rust, or Java, they are a piece of cake to me.
If you have any project, I'd like to bring your ideas to life and take your business to the new heights.
Always online, strong communication, high quality are my commitments for my client.
Looking forward to working with.
Thanks a lot!

[gritty rivet]

!rules 9 This server is not the place, please read rules and channel description

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[unborn rose]

let him cook

[pure valve]

How to put Python on your discord status?

Python.com or Programiz compiler

@proper urchin How you did?

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
That has nothing to do with this channel. You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[unique oriole]

Which technologies do you think have more demand then supply?
I apply for fastapi,django, scraping, scripting, automation and on almost every job posting there are already 100 applicants in 24 hours of job posting

[smoky quest]

every job will quickly have thousands of applications

[smoky quest]

so the take away from ^ is about worrying less about your competition and making sure you are a solid candidate.
Feel free to post an anonymized version of your resume for feedback

[unique oriole]

I got that just the other day it still needs alot of things and so does my github
But this makes sense.

[vapid jay]

wow it's british day

[cinder fossil]

this is the typical starting salary range at big tech and finance companies, but most places not in those fields typically won't pay their techies more than £40k starting here. and thats directly out of university

[cinder fossil]

but given that you're an analyst, the easiest thing for you imo would be to stay in finance and just develop programming ability and try to stay within the field but look for more tech-oriented financial companies

I work for a finance company on the tech side supporting traders analysts etc. and we have quite a few people with a lot of experience on the finance side do pretty much that, they came here and began teaching themselves python so they could more effectively do their jobs

I can't really speak for other companies but I know a lot of the analysts at my place earn a fair bit above six figures

[hot viper]

Hello! I don't post much here, I don't know if this message really belongs here. I am struggling to find jobs as a junior developer, I got out of university as an international student and I had to leave immediately to help family, and right now I am in a country that isn't tech-focused, and junior positions have been incredibly hard to find. (I have been job hunting for 2 and a half years...), I have looked for junior remote positions as well but I can't seem to find any. I moved to Europe for 6 months and I couldn't find anything either. Quite frankly, I am getting desperate, I try to apply to different countries but it doesn't seem I can land on anything... I want to know what I'm doing wrong, I want to get hired but I don't know what to do, I don't feel like my university prepared me enough and I was a good student (3.5/4.0 GPA isn't amazing but I'd consider it good at least), and yet, it feels like people struggle, and I read their stories but they haven't for as long as I am, I need advice.

[somber pawn]

where did you go to university?

[hot viper]

University of Miami

[buoyant seal]

it is more common to find junior job somewhere where

1. u a having work permit! (and citizenship too)
2. u know local language to C2+ level
3. working in office

work permits are an extra effort to sort out. it matters (it will allow having juniors at a lesser cost. not every company is even having procedure to hire workers internationally, as it may require extra beraucracy and lawyers)

working in office is easier to guide junior to post junior level (most of juniors are shy creatures that are too much easily spooked or hiding in a closet)

well, and C2+ local language is important because junior is subject to education and it is hard to educate a person that can't speak your language

[hot viper]

I had both, once I left the US I went to spain, I had work authorization and I was spanish native, then I went to Panama also had work authorization, also spanish.

Now I am trying to escape my family situation, so I want to move to Germany, where I have a lot of friends that would make me feel safe staying away from family but I don't know the language (started looking for 3 months) but I still can't seem to find anything. And I also tried looking for remote work anywhere else.

[buoyant seal]

laws to hire people are usually less restrictive to hire people which have citizenship. So, that could be important too
Companies coud be needing extra thing/money/beraucracy and etc to pay in order to hire a person outside of country

[pallid ferry]

Hii

[hot viper]

I want to learn web development since that seems like a very common position for software engineering. I am thinking of taking a dedicated bootcamp for 6 weeks, do you think that a bootcamp and building a personal website could boost my chances significantly?

[buoyant seal]

what happened with University of Miami? did u graduate it?

[hot viper]

I did, 3.5 GPA

[viscid bluff]

Write as much code as you can .. that would help significantly no matter how you learn

[hot viper]

I have a bachelors in science

[hot viper]

I dont know if thats true, my passion is in game development, on my free time I would develop games but that has next to no use when it comes to any job that isnt game dev, and game dev doesnt pay well

I need to focus on something useful like web dev if I want to get hired on something that is stable

[buoyant seal]

well, university was supposed to prepare u sufficiently for having ability to self study as it is.
if u think short bootcamp can help u with motivation, sure take it. Although i would have prefered probably doing it without it... (at least at current level of self confidence 🤔 )

Portfolio on another hand could be a really great thing to do in any case 😁 (I work on it, even if i am having work for years, i do self studies anyway, why not to make projects in presentable way)

anyway, may be your problem could be in having just polished enough resume. Anonymize and share for review

[viscid bluff]

ya you are right .. initially i too had interest in pursuing that game dev side of thing .. but there are less openings for the same in the market

[hot viper]

I would self-learn but I often times would find myself missing something "obvious" or standard practice or mistakes I'd be doing if I learned on my own. and at this point I am really afraid of wasting time on "self-learning" and risking not learning properly. Honestly, I'd love to just say "f it" and do research on my own but I don't want to risk wasting time over a bootcamp that could help me understand various aspects i didn't consider

Ill share my resume shortly

[vapid jay]

what does it mean for you to "learning properly"

[buoyant seal]

problems with bootcamps of rather low quality in general though 🤔 they are more aimed to people without higher education.
u may find their material mostly useless to yourself (since u have already graduated university)

u could be needing something more comprehensive that u can rush quickly in a short time matching your own speed (udemy courses could fit you better perhaps) (cheaper too)

[hot viper]

Learning through a source that is a senior at their job and know all the recurring aspects of what my job would be like. A professional that can share their knowledge

[hot viper]

The bootcamp I'm talking about is in udemy actually, I was considering using this: https://www.udemy.com/course/the-web-developer-bootcamp/

[somber pawn]

I'm just wondering but what did you learn at university?

[eternal swan]

yo chat i'm trying to do the code from that guy on tiktok does anyone know how to fix this?

[buoyant seal]

frontend with some low quality full-stack flavour 🤔

u may find yourself wishing to check if u like backend development more, that could be more challenging and rewarding path

[vapid jay]

ooh what are your thoughts on yt tutorials are they enough ?

[eternal swan]

sorry if i'm in the wrong channel i can't find channel for commmunity support

[somber pawn]

its definitely the wrong channel.

[hot viper]

Computer Science degree, got a math minor.

[eternal swan]

can you # me to the channel

[vapid jay]

#1035199133436354600

[hot viper]

I would love to learn backend or frontend, fullstack, the more knowledge I get the better

[somber pawn]

what language did you learn?

[hot viper]

We see several languages in university, Python, C#, Java, C++

[buoyant seal]

u could be wishing to concentrate on one thing first, backend or frontend. People need having specialists.
Full stack people are usually a jack of all trades. Although as some point experienced enough person can do all things at a high level

[hot viper]

Do you have any recommendations to get started on backend?

[somber pawn]

well, I don't want to be rude but learning 4-5 languages doesn't make any sense, also it's really easy to learn a language on your own.
This is how the majority of people do it.

[fringe sphinx]

If your programming skills are weak, then focus on getting to an intermediate level first with practice. We have lots of recommendations in that. You’ve got to be good at the fundamental skills before trying to specialize

[hot viper]

I am not understanding where you are getting at with this, it was for different tasks and classes, they dont teach languages they teach theory and use language as a driver for that. These languages came through different teachers for different classes

[obtuse apex]

when in doubt, apply at google

[fringe sphinx]

I understand, I’ve seen many candidates where you’re at: they learned a little about a lot in college, but didnt work on their programming skills. (This is the classic fizz buzz filter case). I don’t hire them because I don’t have time to teach the basics.

[somber pawn]

Why don't you use this theory then? I love when people are saying this, why isn't it possible to learn the theory on your own? There are a bunch of great books out there.

[buoyant seal]

there are two aspects to learn essentially for backend

writing maintanable unit tested code
and working with postgresql / relational databases

u need learning stuff like writing unit tested rest apis
find tutorial to get started with rest apis in your language
book Code Complete by McConnel will teach you aspects of writing clean maintainable code

• books like Unit testing by Khorikov, TDD by kent beck, getting hang of using pytest as part of your workflow for more unit testing education

https://www.udemy.com/course/postgresqlmasterclass/ looks interesting for postgres, I like idea of having thorough postgresql education for backend. relational databases are really corner stone of backend

P.S. also nice to start using linux for backend 😁 if u will get learn docker with book like Docker Deep Dive, u will be far more prepared for backend (some ask it from interns right away, ability to work with docker)

[hot viper]

I have taken daily coding challenges, I was considering also leet code but I don't think my programming skills are particularly weak, I have studied a lot of programming patterns for the sake of game development and I have learned a lot. I can learn more but I think, as a junior, I believe my focus should lie on a better portfolio

[fringe sphinx]

Hmm, what language is your strongest?

[hot viper]

Python and C#/Java

[somber pawn]

could you explain to me why is it good to know 3 languages?

[buoyant seal]

that's glorious. Python and C#/Java 🤔 that is a very strong combo for learning great backend development
best to choose Python or Java to learn in depth though

[hot viper]

I don't understand this question

[fringe sphinx]

Duck’s comment is on point, two good books and a suggestion on docker (which starts developing some devops skills too)

[hot viper]

Okay, I will look into these, I have some experience working with relational databases as I have developed programs that use it

[somber pawn]

nevermind

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno? I touched 3-4 languages in colleges long ago, that doesn’t seem unusual: doesn’t mean they mastered them, just were introduced to them I suppose

[hot viper]

let me get my resume before I forget

[somber pawn]

we have a different mindset about coding, I believe.

[vapid jay]

where do you work at ?

[fringe sphinx]

I’m just saying it’s not unusual for a college program to cover multiple langs. Not saying it’s a good practice when developing your skills? Which I think we agree on

[buoyant seal]

different languages have different usage cases. in some cases u just can't write quality stuff if u chose wrong thing to do a job.
For example choosing Python is really bad idea if u need OS cross platform compiling
and i would say bad idea to choose it for desktop and mobile
and bad idea to choose python for long term (years) maintanance software of some financial nature

[fringe sphinx]

I work in the data engineering field

[vapid jay]

youre prolly experienced 💀

[fringe sphinx]

I’m old, if that’s what you’re asking 🙂

[vapid jay]

lol no

[somber pawn]

I suppose I will never know, since I don't have money to pay 36,000 pounds for a 4-year course.

[hollow fable]

how do cs students make money while studying?

[abstract lion]

Hi guys, I don't know if this is the right question for the right server, but I am currently living in Australia in high school. should there be anything to look out for when I move to america? I am trying to hone into a tech/maths field, and am asking this question early (when i am in america i will be halfway through year 9) so that i don't mess up early and am ready for any surprises. any weird or different things that happen in high school would help me a lot too (there is a cafeteria?)

[buoyant seal]

I dunno? I touched 3-4 languages in colleges long ago, that doesn’t seem unusual: doesn’t mean they mastered them, just were introduced to them I suppose
in any case this statement is truthful. as long as u did not learn commercial level of usage in some company with high enough coding standards...
usually u are just introduced to the languages, but far from having even some middle usable level fitting industry needs

learning and practicing in depth to your job role is required

[hollow fable]

your trying to find a job with this?

[robust saddle]

Hello fellas

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, I was certainly -terrible- at programming when I graduated. I wouldn’t have hired me.

[robust saddle]

Bruh.

[hot viper]

yeah?

[buoyant seal]

😅 me too. me too. but i am making up for it rapidly with self studies which i at least started doing after my graduation. better late, than never.

[hollow fable]

this looks like the jack of everything to me, i would only put on the list job related stuff

[somber pawn]

what did you learn in college then?

[hot viper]

The bottom part is at the bottom for a reason, the most relevant information is at the top. And I have very little experience to fill one page, taking away more won't do me any favors I don't think

[fringe sphinx]

Fairly typical stuff. The curriculum then isn’t that different than now: calc, a high level language (pascal at the time), c++, lisp/fp, some lowlevel assembly/arch class, and a bunch of misc comp sci classes (dsa, etc). Most cs majors don’t get ‘good’ at programming form their classes: they need to work in it on their own.

[buoyant seal]

having in front of me examples of how person could be good with coding
by reading books of really good authors
or checking projects of really... stellar people that made some awesome things single handedly.

I remain thinking that til this day i am still... not enough.
Once i make my own projects that at least.. at somewhat comparable level, then i will consider myself being somewhat acceptable developer.

[hot viper]

Also if you guys wonder why I say I haven't been employed when I very much am is because I am working as the sole developer at a small company, I learned how to use mysql and servers to develop desktop applications for it. I didn't have any training, I was just taken in to do this work and I was able to do it through my own research. So I technically still am in the same position I was when I finished university

[fringe sphinx]

I think that’s the characteristic of a good engineer: always feeding in information, if you stop you die (like a shark, allegedly)

[hot viper]

Also looking for jobs because my current situation is toxic and I want to change it

[hollow fable]

it looks messed up, its as if you try everything in a short period of time and never stick to something specific

[fringe sphinx]

Professional development/side projects are how you build your skills: keep broadening your knowledge.

In the short term: I’d suggest watching some conference videos. It’s a good way to see how much bigger the world is, and how many people are working on interesting things. Maybe this’ll inspire you.

[somber pawn]

I don't know if you guys are familiar with this but once something is not challenging anymore I want to move on and learn more. This is why I'm only working on my project at the weekend and doing more focused work during the week.

[fringe sphinx]

I do agree with Xmao: try to simplify your jobs and focus on the skills you want to be hired for. Like, the gsuites stuff seems irrelevant and weakens your message that you are a SWE

[hot viper]

Is this better?

[hot viper]

Also I have a question with this, how do I showcase backend on a portfolio? Don't you need both back-end and front-end to showcase a website? How do I work exclusively on one part without working on the other?

[steep tapir]

Perhaps a kinda stupid question, but... can I actually work on freelance platforms, having projects like console password randomizer, console calculator, console address book and etc?

[true harness]

just use GitHub

[true harness]

probably not

[hot viper]

The question still kind of remains though, what work do I do? Like, I cannot think of a project to do because of this

[steep tapir]

What kind of programming are these programmes? Backend or what?

[fast tusk]

WHAT IS A DATA ANALYST

[buoyant seal]

it is sufficient just having Github accounts with repositories
and highly preferably having it throughly documented, having license, having detailed readme about project description, how to use
may be even making mkdocs documentation into Github Pages
abusing mermaid.js for as a code diagrams to explain difficult spots
abusing draw.io for more free style diagramming
if u will follow Git convential commits and Semantic versioning, with making tags/releases of your projects with changelogs (btw i made tool that helps doing it automatically), it will be far more presentable

Otherwise people will just check the code of a project
but they need README at minimum for presentability and what it is about
Preferably your project will have at least few users which need it 😄 smth user oriented is great

[hot viper]

As I understand it, they are people who use code to gather data, analyze said data, come to conclusions and make reports to higher ups depending on inquiries.

[steep tapir]

?

[hollow fable]

various, i would say the majority are web developers, frontend and backend

[hot viper]

I'm sorry, maybe I am not explaining myself well, what kind of work can I do as back-end? can you give me some examples?

like, can I see what a backend project looks like and how it functions?

[steep tapir]

Btw do I need to learn CSS and html to do frontend on Python?

[fast tusk]

SOUNDS ALOT BETTER THAN FULL STACK WEB DEV THANK YOU I WILL BE DOING THIS AS A CAREER

[hot viper]

Please don't make the desicion based on my words, make your research and come to your own conclusions

[true harness]

they're just small practice programs

[hollow fable]

lol

[hollow fable]

i assume the majority of backend developers work on apis

[steep tapir]

Can you advise me on some really good projects to make, having basic knowledge of language? I mean not these I've already made like a console calculator or randomizer

[fringe sphinx]

The problem with ‘back end’ term is: it’s meant a everything that’s not front end, which is a -lot- of possible things

[fringe sphinx]

!kindling is a good place to start for ideas

[buoyant seal]

backend project is common to have interaction with databases (sqlite3 or postgres)
it could be needing message queue like celery for its functionality (some cron/periodic operations)
nice to have it raised very easily with docker-compose

what u can do with that?

• Discord bots (i made for example one that helps in an open source community of a space ship game to track in game objects via discord channel, raising alerts if more than X enemy space ships present in certain system)
• i made web site that offers self hosted VPN installation
• common to make some micro blog / live chat
• i plan to make Discord bot that on trigger with restore snapshot of my minecraft server, and autotomatically backup and destroy when zero people are present 🤔 (for money efficiency in renting hardware power for server)
• i made different CLI tools. They go in favour of backend kind of too, if u show ability working with code architecture in them
  • i made one that automatically validates submitted git commits as following git conventional commits and other rules and generates changelogs in markdown
  • i made black formatter analog for open source gaming community, it formats their configurational files and adds comments for denormalizing human readable access
• check more project ideas for inspiration over there https://nedbatchelder.com/text/kindling.html

[hollow fable]

wow, i never thought of discord bots as backend

i thought backend only refers to websites server code

[fringe sphinx]

Depends on the context… some folks use it that way. It gets confusing.

[hot viper]

I see, thank you, I will take a look. I mean it sounds like what I have been doing at my current job was mostly backend

because I was hooking up sql queries to gather and insert data into a database for handling of invoices, receipts and inventory systems

[fathom vault]

Anyone here from Italy? How much software engineer earns in Italy?

[fringe sphinx]

Also check out https://missing.csail.mit.edu, some gems int here

[steep tapir]

What do I need to learn to make basic interfaces with some buttons, text, etc?

[hollow fable]

whats the correct way? can i call myself a backend developer with no knowledge in building website server code whatsoever?

[hot viper]

What's this?

also yeah when I talk about backend I mean working on webdev backend, I don't know if theres a distinction

[fringe sphinx]

Things you should generally know, but a lot of juniors don’t

[hot viper]

a lot of software terms feel confusing

[hot viper]

Okay! thank you, I will certainly learn from it

[buoyant seal]

so... it is very nice for backend project

• if u utilized SQL (postgres for the win, but sqlite3 is cool for pet projects)
• if u utilized scaling communicating protocols like Message Queue(celery), or even event streaming like Kafka)
• worked with Rest APIs, tried eventually some day other communicating protocols
• had it self documented with Docker for easy dev env, and auto tested in CI in some github actions/gitlab
• utilized unit testing (pytest for python), or even static typing (with mypy/pyright)
• worked intensively with high level cloud provider like AWS, GCP or Azure. (familrity with it, greatly increases backend dev value) and used common objects from it like S3, RDS, EC2, ECS, IAM, WAF, SQS and etc (if we speak AWS)
• worked with other types of no SQL databases (Elastic Search, Redis, RabbitMQ, S3 and etc)
• basic profficiency with html/css/javascript is expected from backend dev eventually even if he never will need them. (books Head First HTML css and Head First Javascript are sufficient level of material)

[hot viper]

Most I know about AWS is file upload and download, that's pretty much it, don't know much else, I don't know about Rest APIs, Celery, Kafka, Docker, I don't know of these

I am trying to nail down a roadmap I can study from to feel ready to tackle job applications again for backend positions

[true harness]

i didn't see anyone mention roadmap.sh

[hot viper]

I read online it's not a very good source because it ends up being very very broad but I havent taken it personally

[buoyant seal]

@hot viper but just to be sure one of main goals in backend education is actually learning writing maintainable code that scales in its size
so

• learned aspects of clean code naming and refactoring code smells
• utilized unit testing (pytest for python), or even static typing (with mypy/pyright)
• learned OOP, design patterns, code architecture, able to draw code isolational line between different layers. TLDR, having ability eventually to gather code in reusable packages and writing monolith application with good structured code (and then starting to learn what are microservices after that)
• learned system design.
  • learned gathering requirements

We need always to remember, that we write code not for computers, but for other humans/devs first
Your code will be always re read by others... and by you in a year when u forgot it too

[hot viper]

Is it possible to have games for backend examples?

[buoyant seal]

Sure. online game can be having backend for its server data
if game has state persistent in online/server way -> it has backend
if game has cross player communications -> it has backend
if game has code logic that is executed at server side -> it is backend

Backend is server side data storage, logic resolution and communications pretty much

[brazen island]

I don't like the "saved X man-hours by doing Y" on resumes but it seems to be popular and encouraged in the US.

[true harness]

why not?

[brazen island]

From all the work I've done and seen around me it would be very hard to quantify the impact unless you went through the trouble of measuring it which happens even less. So to me it looks like putting an interesting but arbitrary number on what you did.

Basically, unless you've measured it it shouldn't be on it, I think that's the consensus culturally since a high fidelity/truthful resume is favourable specifically in our context.

[true harness]

then you assume based on your experience that a candidate has probably not done the measurements? how could someone word it to emphasize they did go through with all the measurements?

[brazen island]

It's not a dealbreaker, I would still invite them in, especially if I believe measuring it is implausable. Best case scenario they teach me how to measure something I didn't know how to 🤣

[hot viper]

In my case these documents were typed by hand and would take several days, I made an excel file such that it would automatically make these contracts and finish them in an hour at most

[buoyant seal]

funny thought to consider... game like Minecraft can create single player works and local network accessable worlds (with single player being just offline multiplayer world)
Pure technically, in both cases it is still made backend 😄 far less conventional and using mostly Java specific things for its storage and processing only
but it is still backend at its core part

it resolves server side data storage, it resolves communications between players and has server side logic execution

it is not using even single conventional tech used for backend today though.. so.. other people will probably not score it as backend

although i u made game of minecraft complexity -> u are already dev capable of everything 😄

[brazen island]

Maybe it's fine as is, if you have the time for it just try and look at how resumes are expected to be wherever you're applying.

[hot viper]

Do tile based strategy RPGs count haha

[vapid jay]

it's really hard for me too decide which topics I should learn after completing one LIKE e.g OOP what should I learn next what should i do to learn in sequence

and to insure that i don't miss anything

[buoyant seal]

as long as it has server part launchable separately with console only 😛

but i will repeat again that this server will not have used pretty much any of the conventional tech backend job role position usually asks
almost all modern backend job, is dealing with smth SQLish and rest apish. Cloud, bla bla bla.

[hot viper]

Okay!

Is it okay if I share progress with you on things I learn to get feedback from you as I do them? Not super frequently but to make sure Im doing wlel

[buoyant seal]

as long as you ask your questions in public chats like #career-advice #software-architecture #databases #web-development and etc
feel free to ping me for related topics from time to time in addition to the question asked to public... as long as not too often

[hot viper]

Thank you! You are very kind, I will not nag you contantly or often

[fringe sphinx]

I’m not a particular fan of this stuff either…. I just want to know what you worked on, what your contribution was, etc… but all the claims of success and puffery are things you can say if/when at the interview

[true harness]

you didn't say that when you reviewed my resume 😦

[fringe sphinx]

It’s just my personal preference tho: I’m not the only hiring manager 🙂

I assume just about everything is a lie, and I just want to know whether someone was actually an engineer/wrote code in their last job… in which case, I’ll talk to them to hear the rest.

[hearty island]

should i even bother applying for roles that require more experience than i currently have?

[fringe sphinx]

As a hiring manager it’s annoying, but everyone does it so 🤷🏻

[hearty island]

thanks for the response. yeah i have to increase my app numbers

my interview yesterday did go rather well tho 🙂

[scarlet berry]

i need help anyone here

[hearty island]

yeah, with what

[fringe sphinx]

#❓｜how-to-get-help if it’s a coding question, maybe start there

[hearty island]

the last interview i had they called my internship experience "incredible" and i was like shocked. never got that out of an interviewer before

[scarlet berry]

dude i can't post i write everything that i wnt

[fringe sphinx]

Read the procedure, it’ll open a new help thread for you

[hearty island]

is it a good sign if they try to negotiate salary with you right off the bat?

[fringe sphinx]

Yes, in sales, we call those ‘buying questions’

[hearty island]

oh, i see. yeah they were like we're looking for talented students like you who are aspiring to be project managers

(it's a non-technical role), supply chain. i better read up on what the fuck they actually do before i make it to the second round

[scarlet berry]

see this i can't post why

[fringe sphinx]

The red message at the bottom says you need to pick a tag.

[scarlet berry]

which tag dude this i'm new on discord

[fringe sphinx]

Click show more tags and pick whatever you think is closest. It’s not that important just pick something

This is really a question for #python-discussion , but I like plotly. It depends on the interface you’re working with.

[scarlet berry]

i select 2 ai and database

[blissful hollow]

Oops and i was wondering why chat isnt so active. Sorry

[scarlet berry]

still not working i think i not have persmiision

[fringe sphinx]

What error?

[true harness]

yes. too long, complicated

[hidden bloom]

Is this better: "Helping others becomes much more rewarding in environments that aren’t solely profit driven, and since that’s one of my core values – said environments are where I perform best. "

[gritty rivet]

Not in my opinion. Try feeding both versions into ChatGPT and I bet it can clean it up for you

[hidden bloom]

lol... i honestly rather not - i feel like using chatgpt would make me a worse writer

[gritty rivet]

Sounds like you want a writing tutor then, which is great, but this is not the place

[vapid jay]

nooo @vapid jay why did u get banned 😭

DINORMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 😭

guys is making my "programming language" in python simple?

[vapid jay]

SOEMONE

[gritty rivet]

If he was behaving like you are he deserved to be banned. Please stay on topic or go to an office topic channel

[vapid jay]

oj

[hidden bloom]

damn where is the place then..

[buoyant seal]

it is simple, but u will get very horrible result if u will be making full programming language in python
lack of memory allocating capabilities and sheer performance slowness will make it extremely terrible

on another hand making some niche language for specific purpose like docker-compose or ansible.. is practiced and was made in python
worked well enough... at least until the moment compose was refactored to golang 😁
ansible still lives in pytho nthough

[vapid jay]

ill create a simple one so its not gonna be horrible?

[buoyant seal]

full programming language made in python will be horrible by design
u can't make anything even remotely performant enough with python (for full programming language purposes)
U can make for sheer practice anyway though

[vapid jay]

oh thanks :)

[buoyant seal]

u could try selecting some other language to make programming language 🤔
Rust could be potentially very good candidate, it has good memory control as far as i know
U can make smth with Golang. It has memory control to allocate, but garbage collects after that... should be working acceptablish enough
People make often in C
C++ and C# not sure how well would flare

[vapid jay]

i use C# so i think that'd be great

[buoyant seal]

C# can allocate memory in bulk 🤔 and garbage collects after that.
Good enough, good enough 😁

[buoyant seal]

if u wish having maximum possible result though, i suspect using Rust to make a language should be coolest option though 🤔
C# is still garbage collected language after all. Which brings its own limitations. Plus too much windows/microsoft/visual studio tied
Golang could flare better than C# as somewhat middle ground. still garbage collected, but at least easily OS cross platform compiled, friendly to all OSes, minimal memory footprint and time to boot and run
Rust should be still better option though

😁 many infrastructure tools with their own language syntax are made in golang

[vapid jay]

what is https://github.com/LionSec

What is an example of a good Python program?

[buoyant seal]

specify to which requirements/situation

[vapid jay]

That can be very good

[buoyant seal]

https://github.com/encode/starlette
briefly checking starlette, it looks very terrifyingly accurately made code

There is a good reason people choose Starlette as a base to make frameworks on top of it 😁

[foggy raft]

I’ve moved on from Python. I am learning C++.

[smoky quest]

congrats!

[lime plinth]

That's awesome hope that goes well

[sour tartan]

i hope there was a good reason. C++ is not a simple thing.

[buoyant seal]

@foggy raft raised a good topic. We hope u had a good reason to chose C++.
There could have been chosen some simpler language with garbage collection, yet good enough for writing quality code. if your goal is just ability to write more quality code.
Golang, C#, Java / Kotlin, (may be even Rust. Not garbage collected but modern enough potentially to be very enjoyable too)

[foggy raft]

I just like a more challenging language. I study calculus in my free time, I just enjoy training my brain.

Approaching a low-level language really helps me understand more complex systems and so.

[obtuse apex]

h

[tropic spruce]

Just fyi and not to be pedantic, C++ is not typically considered low level. Low level would more like assembly

[lapis wind]

what?

Its a useful language to know

but I wouldnt say it makes more complex systems easier to understand, infact i'd argue the opposite

The amount of time it takes to review our CPP code bases compared to the Python ones is huge

[unborn rose]

cpp aint low level

[sour tartan]

low/high level is not a binary yes/no thing. languages are higher or lower than each other.

[smoky quest]

!ot

[inner wren]

Off-topic channel

#ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[unborn rose]

thanks

[smoky quest]

aptly named off topic channel

[tropic spruce]

Hence the word typically, but you’d be hard pressed to find a circle of software engineers or computer scientists that don’t generally agree that cpp is high level

[sour tartan]

apparently this is off-topic

[coarse crag]

how beneficial are aws certifications for your career?

[lapis wind]

I would argue the exact opposite 😅

[sour tartan]

-> #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

[fringe sphinx]

What kind of career? As a SWE?

[coarse crag]

yeah software engineering in general. i'd assume normal software engineer would be dealing with at least one or two cloud services.

[lapis wind]

Because typically, no group of software developers are writing in ASM or the likes, to where it's actualy relevant to say CPP is high level and ASM is low level. Rather than saying Python is high level, and CPP is lower level

[fringe sphinx]

Certs aren't that useful for SWEs. It's good to learn cloud offerings, but there's not a lot of value placed on them. For other roles (ops, support, QA, etc), certs can be useful.

[lapis wind]

I would argue what you learn from the cert is more valuable than the cert itself is. But it can be a badge on your resume Ig

[coarse crag]

i see i see

yeah that makes sense, thanks!

[fringe sphinx]

(and I agree with CF8)

[buoyant seal]

if your job role is DevOps engineer or Backend developer, it can be useful
probably Data Engineer could benefit too

[gritty rivet]

I'm a Python dev interested in doing more DevOps/ cloud infrastructure work. When I got my first AWS cert it was very much noticed and appreciated by the CTO who started giving me relevant projects. It looks likely that this will lead to a promotion eventually

So I think it depends on your goals. For me it was valuable.

You can look at job listings and see which roles value them and which ones don't. For more traditional SWEs, probably not as helpful

[coarse crag]

ooo

[coarse crag]

that's awesome. i'm happy for you.

[coarse crag]

i see, yeah. i am thinking of going into devops in the future indeed. but that will take quite a bit of time. i'm thinking of using these certifications to jumpstart my career because i don't have a degree.

thanks for the input. i really appreciate it 🙏

[foggy raft]

I don’t program for money or anything, I do it for the fun of it.

[pine sleet]

LinkedIn has many job offers

[peak halo]

you can start applying to jobs online (google, linkedin), but if you just know those from self-study, you will probably not be successful.

you can't get them to respond. all you can do is apply.

[pine sleet]

A good resume is a good start

[peak halo]

if all you have is self-study, you will not have anything to put on the resume even if you make one.
what general stage of life are you?

[pine sleet]

We provide resume reviews here. You can post yours (anonymized if you wish)

But like Stel mentioned, you would need stuff to put on there in the first place. Degrees and previous work experience are the most important

[gritty rivet]

In addition to what Robin said, having a solid portfolio of projects will be critical

[peak halo]

are you a teenager who is still in compulsory education, or a working adult, or something else?

what country are you in?

then you should go back to school.

[pine sleet]

A degree, which the majority of people working in CS have

[gritty rivet]

A degree will be a worthwhile investment, even if it's just a lite online degree like WGU

Ideally you do a real degree and get multiple internships. This is the standard route to a solid career

[peak halo]

setting aside the actual coursework and the degree that you get at the end, school gives you a platform for getting involved in programming stuff (programming clubs, research groups, other projects) and networking both with classmates and with companies that partner with the school.

[pine sleet]

It proves that you can go through 4 years of advanced education. You also get many networking opportunities, internships, research, etc
You can also look at it from an employer's POV: why would you, a hiring manager, pick someone with no degree over one who does?

[peak halo]

(university courses are very much hit or miss, so I don't begrudge those who think that university is a waste of time as far as their actual knowledge and skill building is concerned.)

okay, what is your degree in, and what jobs have you had, if any?

[true harness]

i thought NEET was just "no education, experience, or training", not "not in"

[peak halo]

I've understood it to mean "not in", but I figured if they had prior educational or professional experience, they would have volunteered that information by that point in the conversation.

took me a moment to realize that "it" is IT.

I guess put together a resume that you think best captures your education and experience. and if you post it here, people will review it for you. be sure to remove selfdox stuff.

[true harness]

use a common template; these can be found via google

[pine sleet]

Jake's resume is a template many here are fans of

[peak halo]

who even is this jake guy?
sounds pretty sus.

[pine sleet]

you know, jake

the man himself

[versed locust]

what r the most useful programming languages/tools for getting jobs in comp sci (im a student whos worked in python, java, arduino, swift, javascript, php, and sql)

[celest kite]

What are you wearing? Jake from State farm

[peak halo]

depends on what kind of job you want to get. and then your skills in that area are more important than your skills with a specific language.

[versed locust]

alr interesing. im really intro web developement and robotics (not the two working together, i mean like i happen to be interested in both of them) i work completely in vanilla html, css, js, php, and sq l(other than occasionally using jQuery for AJAX) but i heard that there are a lot of frameworks used. not sure how important that is to working in the real world yk

[low ember]

does anyone know anything about trying to get an internship in game development?

[peak halo]

this isn't a great place to ask, since the game engines that are used in industry are in C# and C++.

[low ember]

Oh, I didn't know that. Sorry.

[versed locust]

wait when is C++ used? i know its used to make engines (like unreal i think) but like actual games?

[peak halo]

pretty sure you have to write C++ code to use the engines, but I wouldn't know.

(or at least whichever engine is the C++ one)

[pine sleet]

With my limited game development experience, I believe Unreal Engine has their own Blueprint language, but larger games will probably write C++ code if Blueprint doesn't cut it

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to look at what languages popular engines promote. Like Unity promotes C#, Godot gdscript/c#, Unreal some sort of C++. some others would promote lua

[oak hamlet]

[worthy wigeon]

hello

I intend to learn python from scratch, someone over here kindly dm me or pin me and tell me the map I've got to complete

[late pewter]

do cs50p

[shrewd matrix]

i wanna be a art generator

looks wicked bruv

[vapid jay]

Unless one self-studies making a Su-Do-Ku solver or something like that

[vapid jay]

Is your "worthwhile" based on $ or "knowledge"?

[vapid jay]

why would you, a hiring manager, pick someone with no degree over one who does?
because the person with no degree might be better at doing the job?

[vapid jay]

Link?

[vapid jay]

Ask ChatGPT "teach me Python" and follow along. It starts with:

I'd be happy to help you get started with Python! Python is a versatile and beginner-friendly programming language that's widely used for web development, data analysis, artificial intelligence, and more. Let's begin with the basics:
...
...

[azure canopy]

There's always uncertainty involved in judging whether someone would be fit for the job. Hiring managers may be more inclined to pick the person with a degree since it raises the skill floor and thus makes them more likely to be fit for the job

[azure canopy]

I don't think I would trust a LLM to teach a beginner in a programming language

[gusty hedge]

What is CS50p?

[acoustic isle]

It's a free course on learning python by Harvard

[robust saddle]

@abstract lion heyyyy

[smoky quest]

A degree is worthwhile based on both metrics

[jovial ridge]

How do i know what career works for me?

[muted kindle]

I wanna code but I'm in mobile

[rich valley]

Morning, where can i find it?

[dawn shale]

huh