career-advice

[safe coral]

also I dont see any courses about big data and cloud computing

[smoky quest]

things like http://www.mmds.org/

[safe coral]

Cloud Computing for Data Science

this is a nice course cuz I dont know much about cloud computing in data science

[smoky quest]

that's something you can learn on the job or over a week end. No need for school

[safe coral]

which cirruculum do you like? @smoky quest

[smoky quest]

no idea. My point is you should aim for more theory, not small practical skills any engineer can pick up in a day or two

[safe coral]

wtf university of michigan has 3 capstone projects

vs one in berkeley

[lusty spindle]

I understand. Thanks for the advice.

[safe coral]

This is University of Illinois

I emailed my advisor at Berkeley to see if they offer financial aid 😄

[true harness]

https://financialaid.berkeley.edu/how-aid-works/eligibility/ ?

[smoky quest]

for that price, why not going on site?

[safe coral]

It would be over 140K if I went there

for housing and stuff

[lethal solstice]

Hello i have a question is python easy ? bec im a noob in proggraming

[dense fiber]

as a language, it's easier to start with compared to some others. Programming as a whole can be difficult. maybe#python-discussion is the appropriate channel for this

[lethal solstice]

Okay thanks ! i learn btw java and when im finished with java i start with python

[regal axle]

That could be a good thing. Less option, sure. But they can focus on their core. The undergrad school I went to tried to do electives but it was such a mess

What other schools are you looking at/looked at? I am struggling to find schools that actually seem to publicly be exploring modern topics. I know that ones I have looked at probably do, but it could be rough if I have to know every professor and what they study

[safe coral]

Im looking into Berkeley, Uni of Mich, Uni of Illinois, Uni of Texas, Uni of San Diego, Uni of North Carolina, Worcester Poly Institute, Indiana Uni, Utica Uni, Drexel Uni @regal axle

[regal axle]

oh boy. THat is a large list. But good to know. I have looked into some of those. Going to check them out, thanks

[safe coral]

Are you applying for data science too? @regal axle Uni of Mich has a 5 percent acceptance rate

[regal axle]

Not data science. ML. But if you have a good data science program, you likely have a good ML program

[safe coral]

https://fortune.com/education/articles/this-masters-in-data-science-program-has-a-lower-acceptance-rate-than-any-mba-program/#:~:text=The University of Michigan in,with a 12%25 acceptance rate.

[regal axle]

That is the hard part. On paper it looks like I qualify. But then I talk to people and they just tell me how I am not even close to good enough (I have no publications)

[safe coral]

They get over 2K applications accept around 100 of them

[regal axle]

😮 crazy

[safe coral]

I got accepted there but I am still conflicted lol

[regal axle]

Yea, I saw you mention that. Why are you conflicted? It seems to be a really good school. It is high on my list of schools I am applying to

[safe coral]

For undergrad? @regal axle

[regal axle]

No. i have my BS already. Going for PhD

[safe coral]

no masters?

[regal axle]

You don't need one. A lot of programs let you skip it / you get it while you get your PhD (it takes 5 years instead of 4 years to get the PhD)

[true harness]

phd programs look for evidence of research potential. if you only have a B.S, having published research isn't really a necessity

[regal axle]

But my backup is to go MS to PhD. But if I can, I want to skip that extra year it will take me.

[regal axle]

Right. I have done research. But the professor I did it with tried to sue me due to a work related thing (he has no legal leg to stand on, he just went mentally insane. No joke. He is even trying to sue the school.)
And I don't know that I even want to mention him and that work. Because man is that a pain. I spent an ok amount of time with them too ....

[safe coral]

Jesus what college is that?

[regal axle]

But yea; because I only have a BS and not an MS, it makes it harder and easier at the same time. From what I have heard, some schools won't even bother if you don't have a publication. We shall see when I actually apply. But ... not good hearing that

[regal axle]

I plead the 5th (FSU)

[safe coral]

Florida State?

[regal axle]

The professor isn't a CS professor. But we did AI research. "". A snake oil seller.
I also did half a semester of MPI (really not a fan)
So I have stuff. But again, no publications. Even in a trashy journal. So .... yea. We shall see.
But I also have "decent" industry experience. Not sure how I will tie that into my application. But I shall try my best

[safe coral]

Yeah that should help!

[regal axle]

The best part is, it didn’t matter. No one was ever using his software. It was wild

[fringe sphinx]

Uh, pro tip: once lawyers are threatened, don’t make any moves without advice.

(Legal advice not internet 🙂

[regal axle]

It was a product for a client. Not something we could just open source.
And yea, at this point, we know he isn't actually going to get lawyers. The story is so much more wild than you could imagine though.

[fringe sphinx]

I think we’re also heading in OT territory at this point.

[regal axle]

Just to give you an idea. He sent an invoice and this is one of the lines. Best thing ever

Fair. Sorry, I will stop talking about it. Goodnight 😄

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe take it to #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

But that is indeed hilarious.

[smoky quest]

how is it determined? By a judge and whatever process is going to happen.
Not all battles are worth fighting for, especially if you do have to get a lawyer and have to pay tons of fees

What about it?

[true harness]

huh. this is why the old quotes were better

[fading crag]

could someone who understands event handling help me in user-interfaces?

[modern ore]

Why do MLE positions ask leetcode on OAs and interviews

[smoky quest]

MLE are supposed to be able to write code and leverage DSA

[smoky quest]

Hi!
You are asking in the wrong place as this channel has nothing to do with your question.
You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[modern ore]

Makes sense, is that why they ask them linear algebra and etc in the interviews as well 🤔

[smoky quest]

Interviews are about 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏 for the role.

For the same reason, you won't be asked questions about how to configure a cisco switch or how to use react in depth

[modern ore]

Idk why you’re being extra with the clapping but as a swe you won’t be proving greedy solution and you won’t be written recurrence for dp in the job 😹

[smoky quest]

yet, as a swe, I have had to do that a few times as well as some of my coworkers 🤣

The hiring manager has like 4-6 hours top to make a hiring decision. They won't waste time on things unrelated to the job as it's very little time to get to know someone

[modern ore]

You did as a junior?

[smoky quest]

I did many things, even as a junior

[modern ore]

Genuinely curious what you could’ve did using greedy and proving the solution how it works or even writing reccurance relation identifiying the states on the job

[smoky quest]

Am not gonna get into too much details, but there are a lot one can do with graphs, or dealing with combinations or even simple DP like doing a diff within X distance of two blobs

[modern ore]

I am not saying you can't, but you said, they test you on what you're gonna do during the job. I am asking why that would be relevant 90% of the time when interns or juniors will be placed in a random team working on random technology (when most of the time they will be using tools that are already built)

[smoky quest]

that depends on the job and what you are aiming for.
Some jobs are more interesting than others 😂

For instance take someone at janestreet comparing to someone at your local web agency. Not the same job and not the same requirements

[modern ore]

I am talking about big tech companies/unicorn/f500 etc

[smoky quest]

And even if you take google. The people working at X or brain aren't the same folks working on nest

[modern ore]

whats nest

@smoky quest nah lowkey tho, the design oas/interviews are harder than the regular kind 😭

[smoky quest]

there is no oas/interview police. So in the end, it's left to the appreciation of the interviewer.

I would say however that the quality of the interview is a reflection of the future team

[modern ore]

mfs on my practice design oa askin me to do binary search 😹

[smoky quest]

tbh a design question should not ask you about binary search

[modern ore]

actually n <= 100, so that means I can bruteforce this sht nvm

[smoky quest]

Design questions should also be more for more experienced engineers

[modern ore]

What score did you get for ramp?

[plain raft]

How is reading 1 byte from a file taking so long

[summer roost]

What does that have to do with #career-advice ?

[plain raft]

it reflects life

[zinc parrot]

good morning everyone

[trim crypt]

I'm thinking of providing a coaching service to get Python devs from noob to full-blown application deployed. Problem is I've never heard of anyone doing the same. Is there a market for this kinda thing?

[coral sable]

I am currently releasing my portfolio project, orangutan-stem, an open-source repository dedicated to constructing robust data pipelines and scalable infrastructure, primarily in python frameworks. We leverage industry-standard tools favored by data professionals to enhance efficiency and reliability. Uniquely, these pipelines are field-tested on our farm in Sumatra, Indonesia, ensuring real-world applicability and resilience. Please subscribe to the channel and star the GitHub repo-any feedback is greatly appreciated!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4_6trBlF5JyLvPo8QoPoRQ https://github.com/mikestack15/orangutan-stem

[vapid jay]

I lost hope
Whatever i do or i learn i cant make money and i need money urgent
a big money like in 2 weeks
what do you guys suggest to learn in python?

I love bot development and i can make bots easily but there is no career in it (Telegram and bot development)

[fierce mist]

Hello everyone! I have an linkedin account, and I customized my profile. What changes should I make to make it better?
https://www.linkedin.com/in/petrea-silviu-836001231/recent-activity/all/

[fervent grove]

whats ur educational background? got first business experience?

[fervent grove]

its not open without a account and we dont want to get doxxed out here

[gilded valley]

there is no reliable legal way to earn "big money" in 2 weeks

[vapid jay]

Im just 14 and No one accepts a 14 years old do a job for him
and in my shit country they dont pay for something like carwash or something
AND UPWORK, FREELANCER. ... BLOCKED
i just have fiverr with fake info that i dont have clients : (

[open glade]

is it a smart idea for me an international student to pursue a masters and then a PhD in the US in cs or data science or such and get into academia as a professor

[gritty rivet]

If that's what you want to do, then go for it. If you're not strongly committed to academia most people would say an MS is enough. You can generally earn more outside of academia.

And of course you don't need to decide all of that forever in advance and can always change your mind

[open glade]

true true but I care a lot more about stable immigration out of my country than about earning 200k+ in silicon valley and I'm quite into research

[near ocean]

what kind of big money would a 14 year old even need?
ask your parents for an allowance

[vapid jay]

Bro
the last big money i can ask from my parents is maximum 10$ monthly
and for note 10$ in Iran is 500K IRR

60$ is big money for me
i mean this
if i can get even 60$ i can start a business for making money
and i need money to save up and get out of this country as fast as i can

[covert vector]

Build an app sell it to meta, make millions

[vapid jay]

No capital

[covert vector]

But u gotta make sure the app targets some of meta's customers. Ur target market needs to be meta's customers u need to be able to remove some of meta's customers and make meta feel that they are losing a market

[vapid jay]

I dont even have a team to help me
I can't even make something basic like facebook
i dont have money for servers

[covert vector]

App is free. Only thing u need to do is put it on the app store which costs like 100$ or somethin

But for servers yes u gotta pay

[near ocean]

i think you both need a reality check
the easiest way to improve your situation is to keep your grades up and go to university and not daydream about selling apps to meta

[covert vector]

Another thing u can do is SMAA

U dont even need coding. Just make a marketing agency. Make 10k/month

But for coding theres tons of things u can do. Website development, AI, cybersecurity etc etc

[vapid jay]

That's a problem too

[covert vector]

Ur from iran?

[vapid jay]

Even if i had the money to pay for appstore and servers, In this country i dont have access to paypal or credit card

[covert vector]

Go to the University of Tehran. They have good university there. Get a degree then move to US, Europe or Canada

Thats the simplest option as @near ocean said

[vapid jay]

Yeah sadly with the most regret

[covert vector]

I had a teacher who taught me calculus 1 from uni of tehran. This guy was a math genius

[vapid jay]

Why here have too much big slowdown
my math is good
but really i can't keep up another 3 years with learning useless things like arabic and quran
there is no use for them and they grade have the same impact as math and others

[covert vector]

Ur already learning calculus I would assume

In Iran they teach calculus and linear algebra at a young age.

🤣 ur probably better than me at math hahaha

[vapid jay]

Oh nice

[covert vector]

Well all u can do is wait. The two biggest warriors are patience and time as leo tolstoy said

[vapid jay]

But i like making money with Forex, Programming, AI

[covert vector]

Thats good u seem to be very advanced for 14 year old

[vapid jay]

Im gonna read Calculus and things 2 years later in 10th grade

[covert vector]

U will go far but if u want to try to get into the states, get an education in tehran, apply for a job in the US

[vapid jay]

Yeah but i wish i could be in somewhere like US or Canada or Europe
even Emirates or Turkey can be good but no money

[covert vector]

Its a good aspiration but like i said easiest way to do it is go to university of tehran its a good university get a degree in like computer science or engineering and move to the states

U can then do some extra education in the Canada ( United state's education costs too much)

[vapid jay]

Yeah
but i need to wait 4-5 Years to get that, and i want to go to another country to get a degree not in Iran
Btw where are you from

[covert vector]

Canada

There are good universities there like Waterloo, mcgill, toronto

[vapid jay]

Wow
Canada is the best, Everything is perfect

[covert vector]

They arent the best tho

[vapid jay]

They are 100% better then Tehran im sure about that

[covert vector]

Yes its a very beautiful country

Canada is a nice country. We accept lots of immigrants because we dont have that big of a population and we are a secular country

[vapid jay]

Iran is a country that is enemy with Eu and US (I mean government)
and friends with Russia 😐

[covert vector]

Ah i see.

[vapid jay]

But we (people) love Usa and eu

[covert vector]

I see. Well i hope oppression stop in Iran and peace is made. We need peace in the world

Too much war, not enough peace

[vapid jay]

Bro my only business is selling vpns now (the vpn i created myself for censorship)
i get a little 10$ from it monthly but it's illegal in Iran and Im at risk
I want something that has no risk and good money

[vapid jay]

Yeah i hope this happens
and btw read this :
Iran set a record; The first rank of "World's Internet Limitations" was assigned to Iran

The cyber security company Surfshark reported that the first three countries in the new internet restrictions for the first half of 2023 are Iran, India and Pakistan, with 14 cases, Iran has the highest number of "internet restrictions" - which are mainly related to Friday protests after the killing of Zahedan. assigned to himself

[covert vector]

Wow, it must be very hard to start a internet business

[vapid jay]

Besides filtering, Internet speed is terrible
How can you live with 500Kb/s???

[covert vector]

U cant haha 😂

[covert crane]

I could

[covert vector]

In canada we go up to like 3gbps

Thats for domestic use

But its probably more, but it costs too much. I have 400 mbps its more than enough

Tbh u can live off of 30 mbps

Its enough for coding and work

[vapid jay]

I havent seen internet speed +10 Mbps

[covert crane]

the only time i'd need more than 1mbps is when I'm downloading 3 macos installers in a single day

[covert vector]

Wow then i hope you come to North america some day u will be very happy

Patience and time my friend. God rewards those who wait

[vapid jay]

I travel to multiple countries a day with my pc
one day usa one day finland one day turkey
One of my hands work is changing vpn location

a normal day in Iran

Even if i get a order in discord or somewhere, I lose it because i dont have paypal and they think that im scammer because im asking fo crypto

[vapid jay]

Yeah i hope

[hearty island]

it's interview day

[somber cipher]

damn goodluck

[hearty island]

thanks homie

[somber cipher]

@vapid jay damn ur 14 and can already program? sorry for ur situation very sad xd

[vapid jay]

Thank you i appreciate

[somber cipher]

can i ask how you managed to learn ?

[vapid jay]

Actually i started from when i was 10 with Arduino language (based on C++), then i got to C# and learned it a little and find out it's useless for me, i tried to learn java for minecraft development but i didnt continue, and after this i came to python and alongside python i learned html css (Now im trying to learn React.js)
and i learned python from youtube
i think youtube is the best for learning anything!

[somber cipher]

Wow thats rly amazing.. im guessing you started learning so young due to your country..?

[somber cipher]

soo you want to go into websites backend front end?

[vapid jay]

maybe or maybe not
I loved electronics from when i was child
i got to learn some electronic then i find arduino
i learned Arduino language becuase of that and i loved programming

[vapid jay]

Yeah
But my main work is discord and telegram bot development

[somber cipher]

Damn thats rly cool

[vapid jay]

Thanks

[somber cipher]

yeah wish you luck dude

[ashen nymph]

Best age to start with software & electronics

I started at 12 with some visual builder called neobook, i was building silly apps for myself like dictionaries etc tho

[muted bridge]

should I study for leetcode while taking DSA or should i save it for when I've built a strong foundation? Also, should I be supplementing my DSA class with other books/resources or is just taking the class fine?

[fringe sphinx]

If you can do it, anything that gets you writing code is good. Leetcode easy's will reinforce some ideas, and they're not too hard nor advanced. But, mix it up... a lot of folks also like codewars. I don't advise "grinding". Variety / depth of knowledge is how you improve.

Also, maybe read a bit about various advanced topics. There's so much great stuff out there. Or, watch some more advanced stuff (which I dunno, I think it's pretty watchable... I liked watching this series): https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/6-851-advanced-data-structures-spring-2012/resources/session-1-persistent-data-structures/

[true harness]

persistent data structures are super cool. the important part with these lectures is to also do the problem sets

[vapid jay]

Thanks

[late pewter]

hello world i am currently learning python

[dense mesa]

Could you stop spamming the channel

[delicate bane]

codewars +1

[fringe sphinx]

Do you think codewars is complementary to leetcode, or in place of?

[delicate bane]

depends on your goals i think

[fringe sphinx]

At least for the OP / DSA-oriented question?

[delicate bane]

sure if youre aiming for a fangster position, then youre probs better off grinding leetcode. i think codewars encourages more creative approaches esp with the multiple solutions approach

some of those are pretty wacky and youd never implement in production but still cool to see

[fringe sphinx]

My thinking has been that grinding leetcode doesn't really get you enough of a broad problem solving foundation to actually be successful at the higher level problems. Like, how do you break through a skill-ceiling on leetcode? Grinding it doesn't seem to be a viable strategy, but maybe I"m wrong.

[delicate bane]

agreed. if thats your only resource, it def limits your thinking i believe

[hazy glade]

Hello, sorry to bother you guys, bit of a strange question but oh well, i'm studying engineering myself, chemical engineering specifically, I wanted to ask if theres any advice about coding youd recommend towards engineers?

[analog sun]

Try writing programs to help solve some engineering problems

Not sure what specific advice I would give. Are you thinking of changing from chemical to computer science / software? Or just how you would apply programming to chemical engineering?

[leaden jasper]

My bachelor's is in ChemE. I think the most helpful thing for me in terms of coding was getting a minor in CompSci. Specifically taking some of those core compsci classes like DSA, Introduction to OOP, etc. I found it gave me a step up compared to others in terms of feeling comfortable coding and implementing different engineering concepts in code.

Numerical methods was also very, very valuable for me. Python is definitely gaining traction in the engineering world as the go-to language for doing data processing and other types of calculations.

What kind of work do you want to do in the future? Going to a processing plant will be a different experience that going into pharma which will also be a different experience than going into some other field. So it's helpful to know what type of work you're aiming for

[hazy glade]

Hmm, so far I think i might be going into the processing side of chemE, but its all subject to change really, im only in y2 so far

Also, mainly just what methods and concepts would be useful to learn to apply programming to chemE

[elder forge]

You will need to learn chemE and programming as two separate things first, and then combine them to enhance your work later.
While you are in Uni you may have the opportunity to take additional classes outside of your study program.
This is a huge opportunity, and as @leaden jasper was saying, taking classes in OOP and DSA will probably be an excellent use of time.

[hazy glade]

Hmm, that sounds good, if i get the option to take it i almost certainly will, ty!

[fervent grove]

@hazy glade hey im a chemE aswell and did what u try to do and can just agree with @leaden jasper and @elder forge but additionally would advice to seek for projects or internships to see if it fits for u before tryharding it.
Cause real-life is always different from what u study 🙂

[vapid jay]

Study first, then exercise...

[vapid jay]

Jealous. Going into biotech?

[fervent grove]

nope classic chem company (IoT, I4.0, DA etc.)

[vapid jay]

Do you do programming at the company?

[fervent grove]

yep

[vapid jay]

What do you do? Just curious since I was going into sciences before I switched

[fervent grove]

so u a grad. switching from science to IT?
Pretty much Data Science and KPI design

[vapid jay]

No, but I might go back to school later on

[vapid jay]

Gotcha, do you think ChemE will help more than bioinformatics if I want to make the switch?

I already have programming experience

[fervent grove]

if u plan to go in big chem companies yes#, chem > biotech in terms of jobs

[vapid jay]

In terms of availability?

[fervent grove]

yes
and amount of vacancies

[vapid jay]

Ahh

[fervent grove]

but be warned many comps search seniors rather than juniors, so its hard market to compete in the entry level (Master competes with PHD)

[vapid jay]

Oof sounds like your route made more sense then

[fervent grove]

as mentioned do internships and network early on will help u in the long term

[vapid jay]

Got it, good to know

[vapid jay]

What would be the position title, so I can do some scouting?

[fervent grove]

depends these days they search in all kind of titles e.g. data scientist, data science, data analyst, data engineer, chemical engineer etc.
I build a jobscraper to not get insane searching for nice offerings, cause for example on linkedin u get 1k jobs each day and 99% are trash

[vapid jay]

Yeah that's been my experience with job boards

[fringe sphinx]

It feels the same way from the other side too.

[fervent grove]

no doubt, but ive been in many interviews where they just used buzzwords to get a bigger pool of ppl

[vapid jay]

Networking has been how I've gotten my jobs. Way more straightforward

[fervent grove]

noice, whats ur current position

[vapid jay]

I'm a mid level Java developer

fintech companies so far

get me out of this Java hole

[fervent grove]

why not proceed from there? with experience u wont need to grad?

[vapid jay]

To bio/Chem? I think I need to brush up on datascience or supplement

[fervent grove]

just shift towards DS and DA
true but u wont learn DS in chem studies and in chemE u learn plant engineering

[vapid jay]

I'll see if I can do that

without a degree would be great

[fervent grove]

maybe they changed something or u can adjust ur study plan but chem is chem and not comp science

[fervent grove]

if u got internships in that area maybe start as data engineer and work ur way up

but without any degree might be hard to get there tbh

[vapid jay]

Yeah I figured

I'll look into some internships

[fervent grove]

big comps even pay decent for that

[vapid jay]

is your company hiring? jk

[fervent grove]

most of the time u would go through assessment centers so either u perform or dont lel
some do offer trainee positions aswell could be interesting for u ig

[fringe sphinx]

Surprised you can't find Python opportunities within Fintech. On the other side of the house, Python has taken over

[fervent grove]

some companies wont change their "state of the art"
been to some where excel is the goto 4.0

[fringe sphinx]

I know, that's my world... but fintech is huge and there are many Python opportunities in the industry. I didn't mean within the same company.

[fervent grove]

feeling sad for u

[fringe sphinx]

Why?

[fervent grove]

excel as 4.0 is just pain to work in and with
here let me give u this 2GB excel file,
oh no the intern destroyed the sheet do we have a backup no? 🗿

[fervent folio]

Yo

[vapid jay]

I'm just getting started, so that's what I'm hoping happens

[vapid jay]

Yeah, my company is mostly Java and JavaScript

hey @fervent folio

[fervent folio]

Wanna subscribe to my YouTube yall ?

[fervent grove]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[fervent folio]

Makes more sense .

[fervent grove]

just checked my DB and i got 55k job vacancies and i found interest in <50 🌚

[fringe sphinx]

You only need 1 🙂

or 2-3 if you're going for overemployed /j

[sullen sparrow]

Did codesignal change how they score? Everything online says 850 but all my tests are out of 600? Also did they get rid of the time affecting the score? Like Ive gotten 600s and taken up almost all the time

[regal axle]

So far only 1 school has had it as required (for PhD) and 2 have had it as optional. Most schools are out right not accepting it. But for Masters they seem to care more about it.
An excerpt from Cornell:

we believe the GRE is not well correlated with research success. As such, your GRE score tells us how you performed on the exam, but does not predict your performance as a PhD student.

So for now, I am not going to prepare for it unless I somehow end up with a lot of free time. Will that end up hurting me? I have no way to know

[sullen sparrow]

Also why can I not just use other ones like every single company needs me to do yet another screening its so silly

[fervent grove]

welcome to the world of HR trying to justify why they are there in the first place

[sullen sparrow]

"Make a completely unreasonable file management system that obviously already exists, especially at that high level, and its dropbox ffs and if you do we will offer you an internship to get coffee and push some buttons for $65 an hour"

[fervent grove]

sounds like a great deal 🗿

[sullen sparrow]

I mean better than getting coffee and pushing buttons for an unpaid internship

[fervent grove]

high salary for an intern

[sullen sparrow]

Yeah pretty high but not insane.

[fervent grove]

depends i call it insane 10k+ for an intern, show me the comp an i all in

[sullen sparrow]

10k+ wym? 10k for how long lol

10k for a whole year is hecka cheap

[fervent grove]

!e

print(65*40*4)```

[inner wren]

@fervent grove :white_check_mark: Your 3.11 eval job has completed with return code 0.

10400

[regal axle]

$65 an hour is higher than you will get for internships. But closer to $50/55 is possible. Also depends on the state and cost of living. So $65/h is possible if you work in Cal or Seattle

[fervent grove]

what have i done wrong lol

[sullen sparrow]

$65 an hour is certainly possible at a medium number of tech companies in SF

[sullen sparrow]

It all depends on the company

[fervent grove]

ofc it does but thats so much money for an intern who has 0 commitments

[sullen sparrow]

Wdym by 0 commitments

[regal axle]

Company, state, and position. Look at Amazon; there are some positions that you make $30/h and some you make $50/h. Some are even less. But even in a company, the tech position will have different pay

[fervent grove]

getting coffee and pressing buttons

thats not an "intern" salary in my opinion thats a good entry/mid salary

[sullen sparrow]

That was a joke lol. But most of the time in a 12 week internship they can't give you too much work to do because youre gonna be gone. But yes FAANG+ in person in the bay area

[regal axle]

You don't actually get coffee in these positions. The value of the intern is to give them small stakes projects that are on the back log that the team really wants to get done but not worth their time.
Some interns work on bigger projects. But most don't

[sullen sparrow]

Your opinion is wrong lol

[fervent grove]

i did got the joke but still 65$/h is much money

[regal axle]

Yes. It is.

[sullen sparrow]

Nobody said its not but if thats what certain companies are willing to pay, I am definiely the kind of person who will chase that. But unfortunately that means sitting through code signal sillyness

[fervent grove]

ok if we talking bout bigtech like google ok

[sullen sparrow]

Bro theres no way

[regal axle]

Yes. These are numbers from big tech. But if you jump down a little; banks and finance also pay a large amount.

[fervent grove]

im a chem dude so pharma and chem industry wont pay u that much and they do stonks amount of money atleast not for an intern

[sullen sparrow]

Well thats where you went wrong joke, chem is an amazing career and you actually get to change the world instead of working on websites all day

[regal axle]

Oh yea. CS is not like other industries. It is backwards from most others . Hence why it attracts so many people just after the money.

[sullen sparrow]

wdym by its backwards from most others

[fervent grove]

its a great field to work in 🙂 but we cant change the world as fast as we would need to lol
capitalism kills it faster 🗿

[regal axle]

Most internships are paying you as little as possible. Actually most (until recently) don't want to pay you anything. But CS is a race to the top in pay

[sullen sparrow]

Thats how capitalisim is supposed to work

[pearl veldt]

is it bad to lie about how long you've worked at a company for when adding work experience to a job application? do the hiring staff even validate that?

[fringe sphinx]

Yes. That's checked often.

[fervent grove]

dont lie u gonna regret it @fringe sphinx will put u on the blacklist lol

[pearl veldt]

havent, was just asking bc iw as curious

[sullen sparrow]

And it also depends whether it was "Ive worked here for 25 years so Im putting my start date as January 1998 cuz I forgot the month"

[fringe sphinx]

In the US, it's about the one thing that you can verify: dates of employment.

[regal axle]

Does the position of a person impact a letter of rec?
Lets say some exec from a big company would write me a letter of rec but they don't actually know me personally well; but then I have a random teaching staff who does know me write me a letter. What is valued higher? Also, I didn't have a class with the teaching staff person but have done work with them
(This is for PhD)

[sullen sparrow]

Is nepotism involved?

[regal axle]

No

[sullen sparrow]

Im not a qualified source on this in the slightest but I would presume the teacher because they will be able to better write for you and because it carries a little more weight they are also in academia, but it also depends on who the exec is. If its Sundar Pichai then

[regal axle]

I helped save a massive project. And I was wondering if it was even worth asking them to write me a letter. I think they would. But don't 100% know they would

[modern ore]

Just do problems that are harder for you, you'll learn a lot each time 🔥

[fringe sphinx]

What's the worst that can happen?

[regal axle]

I am going to ask. But it is more so about who should fill up that 3rd slot.

[fringe sphinx]

(and tbh, I've never refused to give a letter of rec)

[sullen sparrow]

Me neither ^

[regal axle]

And also just a genuine question of positions's value in a letter.

[deft herald]

I don't think the recommender's position would impact the value of the letter too much. If i was hiring, i would expect those positions to either be from direct management or from direct peers. I would be way more skeptical of some really high-level exec giving a letter from a Jr. Engineer because i know that practically, those two probably won't cross paths too often

[safe coral]

I wish the slow mode on here is not too slow haha

[vapid jay]

What do you think about references on resumes?

Shows good soft skills?

[peak halo]

at least in the US, one doesn't expect to see references on a resume

[vapid jay]

That's what I thought. Does it enhance it?

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I never see them on the resume. It used to be customary to say: "references available upon request", and I still see that occasionally.

[peak halo]

I think it would probably signal that you don't know what resumes are for, so I wouldn't do it

[vapid jay]

haha I guess it's not a thing anymore

[peak halo]

anymore? references are still a thing. they just don't go on resumes.

[vapid jay]

Yeah, I know a coworker needed one to get into a program recently, but resumes yeah

[vapid jay]

is python worthy for jobs

[balmy oak]

Python is worthy. When other languages fail to pick up Thor's hammer, Python prevails.

[vapid jay]

what industry though

data science only ig

[balmy oak]

Python is used in many industries across many sectors to do many things

[pine sleet]

Python is one of those languages that pretty much every engineer has used at least once before, it is incredibly versatile across the board

[late pewter]

Hello world, i am currently learning python!

[modern ore]

Yeah, plenty of jobs for python

[ocean dune]

Can I learn JUST python and have a job? From the videos I have been watching it seems like the industry has gone to stacks? correct?

[pine sleet]

Python is a tool, you use it as a means to an end
Same way you don't become a carpenter by just knowing how to use a screwdriver

Knowing a couple different languages is useful and all but more importantly you need to know how to solve a given problem using those, and well

[ocean dune]

that puts things into clear perspective. Thank you for that answer

[true harness]

wdym by "gone to stacks"?

[ocean dune]

like language stacks. I see alot of jobs asking for multiple languages as well but thats on linkedin. Im trying to determine what my route should be

[fringe sphinx]

Also to add: youtube is full of a lot of hot takes. Drama drives clicks.

[ocean dune]

true very true

[elder cradle]

I don't know that there are any companies out there doing anything substantial without using any tech beyond python. Even if you assume it's all python scripts and a database or something similar, there will be additional tech involved in making that work. SQL, maybe an ORM, whatever libraries the company uses.

[ocean dune]

So if you guys could start over, would Python be a language you would focus your efforts on learning first?

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, it didn't really exist when I started. And it wasn't industry relevant until relatively recently. But, I'm older so obv not a helpful answer.

If I were you though, yes. Python is becoming the starting language for most new developers. US universities have/are switching to Python as the intro language

[ocean dune]

Thanks everyone for your answers. Genuinely appreciate yall =]

[pine sleet]

Personally I would not put as much an emphasis on individual languages than I did

[balmy oak]

Learn concepts and don't switch around too much. its better to go deep than wide as a beginner

[pine sleet]

For the longest time I had somewhat of a mindset centered around programming languages, like it's something I could collect and know all of them, or something

Once I learned a couple though it because pretty obvious that there was no point, many languages have many things in common and if pressed, I could probably learn mostly any new language in a couple weeks

[ocean dune]

So what would you say to focus for someone whos looking to start a career in this field?

[balmy oak]

Pick your language and go hard. Hone your fundamentals. They are your bedrock for everything else to grow on.

Variables, functions, parameters, conditionals, thinking like a programmer, oop

Code alot on your own projects

[elder cradle]

@ocean dune apparently no one has managed to get through all of the free code camp material without getting hired. if you just want one thing to work on until you have a job that's not a bad choice.

it covers, html/css, js, python, data structures, algorithms, and a bunch of other stuff

https://www.freecodecamp.org/

[fringe sphinx]

🤨

[elder cradle]

there's a lot of content

[fringe sphinx]

the assertion that "no one has ... without getting hired" sounds quite dubious.

[elder cradle]

That's why I said apparently. The founder Quincy made the claim a few years ago.

There's obviously been time since then, but there's also much more content, so I think the claim makes at least as much sense now as then.

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, I'd use the word "allegedly" 😉

[elder cradle]

Ha

Before they expanded the curriculum I think there was something like 3000 hours of material.

So...yeah it makes sense. You do things like contribute to open source projects and build a portfolio as part of the curriculum.

[peak halo]

Unless Quincy hires a hitman for every user who makes it past a certain point without getting hired, I wouldn't take that statement seriously

[elder cradle]

The point is "literally finishing the whole thing."
I'm not actually that suspicious because I'd expect there's a lot of selection bias going on. The original message was suppose to be sans caveats in order to be more encouraging. I wasn't anticipating everyone jumping all over it.

This is the internet I suppose.

[peak halo]

This channel sees a lot of questionable career advice, so anything that could be perceived as career advice gets scrutinized. It's not that we're trying to be contrarian for the sake of it.

[fringe sphinx]

^ and there's a lot of youtube takes that claim "just go to a bootcamp and make $$$$$$".. a lot of folks come here thinking that they'll land an entry software engineers position with a few weeks/months of work.

[elder cradle]

That was all factored in when I wrote the initial message. I don't think anyone is banging out freecodecamp in a couple of months. Again, it's literally thousands of hours of content.

The alumni network has 220k people in it on linkedin and as far as I can tell it's invite only on completion of the course.

[ocean dune]

yes. this is the impression I am getting from all the youtube vidoes I am seeing. Im somewhat lost XD

[elder cradle]

Yeah. The space is full of grifters.

[peak halo]

The people making those videos have motives other than giving sound career advice.

[elder cradle]

Freecodecamp has been around for a decade and never charged anyone anything. They're a nonprofit.

It's been a while since I looked into the curriculum in depth, but last I checked part of the process was contributing to a known list of open source projects. Companies interested in hiring freecodecamp students have people watching those projects for new contributors.

People get job offers before they finished the program based on the code quality in the pull requests submitted to those projects.

[fringe sphinx]

As a hiring manager, I almost only look at 4 year degree holders for entry SWE positions.

[elder cradle]

My understanding is that's not the prevailing view.

[fringe sphinx]

I’m quite certain it is. But there are many jobs in tech beyond ft swe’s

[peak halo]

My company flat out will not hire non degree holders.

My uncle is the hiring manager for one of the dev teams for a large financial company, and HR will not allow him to consider applicants without degrees.

[elder cradle]

I know numerous people employed locally in software engineering that are self taught.

Most of them are in senior roles at this point.

[peak halo]

Where is locally? And how long had they been working before put in senior roles?

I ask because different regions work differently. I'm in the mid Atlantic US, for context.

[fringe sphinx]

Yes, and those folks were probably hardcore geeks who learned a lot from an early age or had otherwise exceptional motivation. I doubt they got there from a short program. I’ve worked with many non degree folks, and they can be the smartest folks in the room, but it’s incredibly hard for them to get their foot in the door (esp nowadays)

[elder cradle]

I'm in Nova Scotia, Canada.

[fringe sphinx]

Anyway, I’m going to bed, just take my point of view into consideration: seek others!

[elder cradle]

@ocean dune https://www.linkedin.com/school/free-code-camp/people/
If you're interested you can see example companies people that went through the program are now employed at.

Big tech has a disproportionate representation, which makes sense.

[uncut scaffold]

what should I have on a resume for my first application to an internship. I go to a good university with goals to aim high

I have a rust screenshot tool, a crab game mod, and a bunch of linux configs on my github with 15 leetcode problems. I have time to get those numbers up and just want some general advice on how to stick out

[spark cobalt]

It's all in addition to other things. It is extremely unlikely that people will hire you ONLY on basis of freeCodeCamp certificates (especially when all the answers to everything are online and can easily be cheated!)

[elder cradle]

You didn't read the whole conversation. Part of the program is committing to open source repos, etc.

[spark cobalt]

It's a matter of how you compare to other people aiming for the same roles. Whether you agree with it or not, people generally regard college education much higher than certificates. (And there happens to be a lot of college graduates without a job right now, so it's even more competitive)

[elder cradle]

I don't mean to be short, but I'm up late dealing with a code problem that ended up being a dev environment problem and I'm shorter on patience than I'd like.

[spark cobalt]

It's not "you don't have a degree, therefore you're ass" it's moreso "I'll have a much higher chance of finding a candidate I'm looking for from college graduates in CS than non college graduates"

[elder cradle]

I'm not arguing against that. Nowhere did I indicate anything against that. All of that stands, and is even factored into the selection bias I mentioned earlier. Anyone who's going to spend thousands of hours on a curriculum without someone staring over their shoulder is sufficiently self-driven to be competitive.

I almost agree with you, but the rest of the disagreement so far has been "you can't get a job without a degree" instead of "it's harder"

[spark cobalt]

I'm in the industry for almost a year without a college degree (19 rn) working full time. I'm just saying it from my perspective of when I applied for jobs. It's very intense.

[elder cradle]

Ok, yeah, understood.

[spark cobalt]

It's not just harder, it's significantly harder.

[vapid jay]

what's up?

[spark cobalt]

I'm happy to give advice for anything specific you wanted to know for this path, but I generally don't suggest it because well, only God knows how many have failed this path.

COVID outbreak at work so now entire company going remote for the week.

[delicate bane]

oh hey wilder youre still around. im usually in #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare if you ever want to say hi.

[spark cobalt]

I come like once every month lol. Good to see you

[delicate bane]

bruh.

[vapid jay]

how did you find job though

[spark cobalt]

Keezy got the job --> I am satisfied with my time here.

[delicate bane]

woah what an arc

[spark cobalt]

Applying to jobs online.

[delicate bane]

i didnt even know. congrats to him

[vapid jay]

linkedin

[spark cobalt]

Sure. I do try to apply to a variety of sites just to track what my return rates are for each of them and whatnot. LinkedIn in my experience didn't go out so well.

[vapid jay]

sorry for asking but what site exactly

[spark cobalt]

Biggest points of pain was finding relevant jobs took too much time it was very inefficient, and any applications through LinkedIn seemed like they did filtering on the LinkedIn end (assuming, idk if this is really true) which worked against my favor since most jobs required a college degree that I didn't have.

[spark cobalt]

Any of the standard ones. Indeed, etc. I'd also invest time calling local recruiters, going to local job fairs/dev meetups/etc.

[vapid jay]

is it possible to get a remote job from another country

[spark cobalt]

I mean, it's possible, but very few companies have reason to hire a junior SWE in a different country.

[vapid jay]

shit

[spark cobalt]

Not to mention the additional efforts they'd have to go do for you (legally, etc.)

[vapid jay]

i really don't think they would have any legal issues

maybe that why they hire people from the outside sometimes

[spark cobalt]

There's some tax stuff I think, not too knowledgeable about this stuff though.

[spark cobalt]

Sure. There are reasons to hire people from other countries. For example if you have huge customers in a different country, you may want people working in that country as CEs or something. But this requires a lot of domain expertise and years of experience generally.

Not sure why a company will hire a junior from a different country other than cheap labor (I've heard of cases of Indian college students getting freelance work from America's because of this reason)

[vapid jay]

yeah i think so

[spark cobalt]

What do you have to provide to said companies? Is there an advantage to the company based on your location? How do you plan to overcome pain points like different time zones, remote, etc.?

[vapid jay]

as you said, cheap

and it's a win win situation though

[spark cobalt]

They invest time into you (through hiring process, onboarding, mentoring and teaching you, etc.). It's not a surefire win win situation. You cost them more than just your salary.

[vapid jay]

we're talking about real work here not interns

[spark cobalt]

Worst case for you is they make you do shitty work that doesn't make you grow as a SWE.

[spark cobalt]

Yes, that's what I'm talking about too. As a junior you don't know shit.

[vapid jay]

looks like a hard time for foreigners

[spark cobalt]

[vapid jay]

too bad

[spark cobalt]

Hard time for everyone these days. Just harder for some.

[stoic fable]

I had an internship for A reinsurance company labeled as a Program Business Intern. I basically worked in excel spreadsheets. Only once did I use code and used pandas lib to clean data. Would you consider this internship useful? Im now a junior looking for more career path'd internships.

[molten condor]

Hi

[late flame]

Sounds better than my first internship. And you're ahead of all the people that didn't get one, which is a lot more than you think.

[bleak canyon]

what can yo urecommend to grow as SWE? I'm it project manager now .. quite senior, and thinking to switch the career to something high level like Python. 😉

[modern ore]

@true harness i fumbled ramp oa, only got 520

[spark cobalt]

Probably not the best person to ask this as I'm rather new in the industry.

[fervent grove]

u also got a job?

[spark cobalt]

Wdym? I've had my job for 10 months now.

[fervent grove]

oh i thought u said in last 2 months u search for some nvm then 😄

[fervent grove]

but isnt the transition from management back to "worker" kinda meh?

[zealous path]

Twins

[spark cobalt]

:3

[modern ore]

got 570 for dropbox 😥

what did you get? they make you write 100+ lines of code 😥 and debuggin is tough

what you get

why bro bein toxic

grown ass man

[buoyant seal]

there are multiple possible factors involved

1. There is highly low level management workers, which are just supervisors that devs do not slack off too much. I could see willingness to migrate out of it, they are kind of meh 😅 Also any low management position is kind of a bit meh by design, because people are first target for replacement at this level
2. you probably imagine higher management person, that is like software architect or smth. Sure migrating from this role to just SWE could be downgrade, but firstly some people like just to work/code, secondly highly unlikely he does have this level of position.
3. in some culture mentality like Indians, they see any management positions all the time superior to regular devs. Not everyone is having indian mentality. Management is just not for everyone, some prefer to do work and create stuff, instead of managing people 😄

[zealous path]

To add to above
I’ve heard a fair few managers complain how they just wanna do what they love (programming) and not all the management stuff.
My wife’s HOD will beg people to ask him for help cause it means he can do coding.

[faint steeple]

((("Searching friends learning python (beginning) to do projects or ideas")))

[marsh wind]

I second that. I am going from PO-ish like position into Data engineer for this exact reasons

[true harness]

😦

I didn't even get Dropbox OA

[true harness]

I think it can be useful if you spin it properly. focus on the coding you did, but the manual stuff

[shell hearth]

Hi,
Just joined the group.
I am sharing this on behalf of a Tech Startup, working on new communication technology (think Facebook and YouTube but next gen and superior).
If you are interested to be involved or potentially work with the startup, send me a DM.

[granite pawn]

I am looking for an AI engineer. Please DM

[near ocean]

Do people not read the rules anymore?

[elder forge]

!rule ads

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[lapis wind]

Does it use web3 😻

[marsh wind]

also, pls see the description of the channel @shell hearth @granite pawn

[shell hearth]

Web3 and Blockchain.

[brisk anvil]

unfortunately no

its not worse than ToSes guys

[fringe sphinx]

Why not web4? Web3 is old news.

[edgy nest]

hi guys i need help w python and tkinter anyone down to help ?

[marsh wind]

yeah, please check out #❓｜how-to-get-help and ask you question via help system, ideally with most details possible

[fleet reef]

You guys are still on Web4??

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, until it goes EOL.

[fleet reef]

It went EoL five minutes ago

But we took inspiration for the next version from USB, so we're now Web4.4by2

Oh shit this isn't pygen

[buoyant seal]

BillyBobby — Today at 2:36 PM
Why not web4? Web3 is old news.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmVt8lC74ns Agreed @fringe sphinx (CC: @fleet reef @lapis wind)

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, I love that video (think you posted before)

[shell hearth]

Web3 elements include NFT and Crypto

[fringe sphinx]

Anyway, please don't post ads or recruit here.

[shell hearth]

Is what I posted an ad?

[fringe sphinx]

"If you are interested to be involved or potentially work with the startup, send me a DM." seems like it to me.

[shell hearth]

This is what I said: Web3 elements include NFT and Crypto. (I already stopped based on previous)

[fringe sphinx]

No worries, I just wanted to make sure you saw that... all good

[shell hearth]

Sure, is there a place for ads btw?

[fringe sphinx]

No... a few people have it's just too difficult to moderate.

[shell hearth]

Ok thanks.

[modern ore]

what did you get for ramp tho? I wanna know what people are getting 😹

[regal axle]

I really can't figure this out. On paper, I should be able to get into a PhD program for ML

But I have 0 publications. Is it actually likely for me to be able to get in? I have some research experience but not a ton. I have a BS in CS. I have strong letters of rec.
I just don't know how to qualify my expectations. I am going to apply regardless. But when I read the school's website, it sounds like I have a really good chance of getting in. But when I talk to people, they tell me I have basically no chance of getting in.
What do you guys think?

[zinc parrot]

what is the translation of your nick name

[modern ore]

idk i got it from a random chinese letter genrator

[modern ore]

I found this prestige website for best tech jobs. can I get some thoughts?

[fringe sphinx]

meh. I'd put the finance folks on their own list, how do you compare citadel and netflix?

[modern ore]

money, and prestiege?

WLB at netflix probably good tho Citadel RNG 🤔

[fringe sphinx]

It's so hard to say. I worked at a big tech and my WLB was great, even though the company had a reputation.

[modern ore]

AWS?

[fringe sphinx]

Although, I'm a workaholic, so I'm probably a terrible person to talk about wlb.

[modern ore]

Yea, I think the team you get is RNG so it could be good or bad

[fringe sphinx]

yah, that is true. I had a great boss.

[marsh wind]

That's OK. You are not expected to publish prior to phd

[regal axle]

Yea. That logically makes sense. However, people tell me otherwise. And even what I read from people who approve applicants. Now, maybe only the top 10 or 5 schools require publications and becasue those are the ones I read about, I am getting the wrong impression. But it just makes it hard to gauge my standing. I don't know any PhD students

[vapid jay]

It might be worth looking on LinkedIn and reaching out

[marsh wind]

Well your mileage might vary depending on the country and school in question. Or even discipline. But, overall you are supposed to learn how to conduct research and publish during your PhD not before.

If you don't mind me asking, why exactly do you want to do phd?

[regal axle]

USA ML/AI. There are a few disciplines that I am really interested in. Deep learning and "robotics" are two ends that have my attention. I am fascinated by the concept of taking the abstract relationship between a description and sensory output (simple popular example is text to image [not exactly looking to do text to image but same rough idea]) or the inverse of that from sensory to description (the robotics part. ie, a self driving car [again simple example to compare to])

I miss read what you asked. Let me answer what you actually asked :

I want my PhD for a few reasons.

• The first obvious reason is to be able to do research.
  • I want to be able to work on the bleeding edge of technology. I want to be part of a team that creates the technology that has a large impact on at least someone's life. Something more than just making a website or making a tool for automation
• Later in life I can see myself becoming a professor. I enjoy teaching. But this is not my main objective.
• I don't want to get stuck not able to make some promotion because I don't have a degree.
• This is a clear path to be able to do the things I find really cool. A path that has less dead ends (look at the third point)
• I will always have that title and accomplishment with me regardless of what I do later in my life (not super important but still cool and worth noting)

As time goes on, the field I am most interested in will become more and more saturated. Higher supply lower demand. If I want to get a job or if later I want to switch positions; it will be hard(er) if I don't have the degree. As supply goes up and demand goes down (burst of the bubble) HR will simply filter through applicants and will have enough PhD applicants to be able to ignore the rest.
This is not an absolute. But it is still true and a real factor

[unique oriole]

Where do u guys look for jobs?
Any process u guus suggest i should follow

Can't find any jobs for internship or junior lvl python backend dev

[buoyant seal]

when i was junior/fresh graduate from uni, i found work for me at hiring web site local/native to my country, it was hh.ru web site 😅

so for all jobs i had work permit by default. and i was hired for work in same town as i am (my town was big and popular enough for IT jobs actually)

i did not even apply... i was invited to pass their home exercise (that took 5 days to finish in going quickly through Flask mega tutorial , building microblog and deploying to somewhere), i did it and was accepted

[delicate bane]

so your end goal will still be industry in the end or is it to stay in academia? i think @marsh wind spoke about something similar previously

[unique oriole]

I can't even land an interview 😭

Most of the jobs I applied were scams and others didn't even bothered to reply

[regal axle]

The goal is to start in industry and then eventually go back to academia. Obviously if my situation with industry is really great, I will stay. But I wouldn't mind going back to academia.

[buoyant seal]

anyway, my point is.. you should tell your country first where you are applying.
and probably show resume with which u apply

i was invited because

• i had enthusiastic enough resume
  • with some solid enough educational background to show.
  • and because i put my resume at local to country web site
• and well, got accepted because passed the second barrier of going through this lengthy home exercise
• and then passed third thing of accepting ridiculously low salary 😄 (i started with 300$ per month salary, which is kind of third world country problems)

[unique oriole]

Really close to 0 demand
And if any it is for web dev(front end)

[buoyant seal]

junior frontend is everywhere tricky due to too much amount of beginners wishing to enter it
you need quite standing out resume to do that

[unique oriole]

Yep.and i have 0 intrest in frontend
I only want to do backend, automation,tg/discord bots, scripting and stuff

[buoyant seal]

like in my country there are numbers up to 1000 frontend beginners per some positions. Everyone is persuaded by scammy online courses to learn frontend

[unique oriole]

Or web3 related solidity,or interfaces for smart contracts

[buoyant seal]

well, you aren't showing your resume, so we can't really help further what can be fixed.

[unique oriole]

Every software house here works for some foreign client (most only have 1 or 2 clients) and they want to do is make websites

I'll dm u

[buoyant seal]

😅 i work for foreign clients too. that was best in my opinion job choice for me if i wish to grow further
local country has plenty of jobs too, but i did not really wish to attach myself to government sponsored jobs and banks

[unique oriole]

Don't really wanna post in public server

[buoyant seal]

post anonymized. (replace by silly numbers/letters email/your exact name and contacts)
P.S. don't edit any educational info.

[unique oriole]

I get that

Ahh ok let me edit it

Probably needs alot of work but it's good to get some insights on what isit lacking

[buoyant seal]

i told you not to edit educational info

[unique oriole]

I only blanked out phone number and email

[buoyant seal]

okay

[buoyant seal]

anyway, u did not graduate your bachelor?

[unique oriole]

https://github.com/Zeal5

[unique oriole]

Nope in 5th semester

[buoyant seal]

that is one of problems kind of. commitment of any graduated person is 10 times more in average than of person whcih did not graduate yet
i had experience of working with hired students. in 4 months they do less work than junior in 1 week
supposedly internships are sought before you graduated

[unique oriole]

I have no problem committing time
I sure am a little slow programmer
Maybe i should reflect that on cv

[buoyant seal]

there is also flaring second problem... you are kind of screaming in red flag scammy technologies and interests to me. i would have avoided your resume by default because of that 😅 i am biased enough person

[unique oriole]

Scamy technology like?
Selenium

Thats how i got into programming web scraping 😆
It's good to know I'll change this
I have been working with fast api maybe I'll add that

[buoyant seal]

Selenium, Web3, Blockchain is a good scammy start to me. Added to frontend as job role that is not usually high in skills in the first place... that's kind of enough to me.
That's kind of very biased view, i can tell you... but probably it will be shared by plenty of other people who view your resume

[unique oriole]

Alright noted
Anything else

[buoyant seal]

it is kind of great that u learn Rust nevertheless though, there go funny rumours that in order to hire best frontenders, u need to hire Rust devs and give them javscript front to work with instead 😄

[buoyant seal]

i would be awesome if u learned stuff like Typescript,
have read books like Code Complete by McConnel, Unit testing by Khorikov, TDD by kent beck.
Having rust experience u should be able easier getting Typescript and all the typing stuff
learned properly writing clean code / unit testing stuff

and at the same time shown nice portfolio of some flashy projects, since you are frontend dev it is kind of expected

[unique oriole]

No no i am not front end dev.

[buoyant seal]

okay, then scrap Typescript and frontend, and web front portfolio, everything else is still remaining valid
learning unit testing, clean code, refactoring is essential for backend roles
plus solid education to use stuff like SQL database (postgresql for example)

[unique oriole]

I do need to learn TDD and some design patterns for sure

Yeah i use postgresql with sqlalchemy(but i can write vanilla sql too)

[buoyant seal]

Docker Deep Dive is good book to learn docker. minimal docker knowledge to use for dev env and docker-compose is expected from backend devs
(Essential to have easily databases raised locally in 30 seconds for local development)

[unique oriole]

I thought u don't even need docker since python is os independent
Like it has python virtual machine

[buoyant seal]

in web development docker is essential
also python is not os independent kind of, it has certain amount of problems regarding that... main one lack of any easy ability for cross OS compiling
just using venv is simpler though and in most cases makes not a lot of problems to reuse python code across different OSes
but filesystem differences and compiling libraries still different to setup project properly

[unique oriole]

Alright good to know.thanks for input
I really appreciate this

What do u think about github repos most of them aren't complete unless they r for web3 or scraping

[buoyant seal]

too simple, lack of documentation, lack of code quality practices ( no unit testing, no CI).
Wishing to see more documented, larger in size preferably and better in terms of code practices
having proper declared purpose of a project, usable for some other users. and mentioned in its README
(LICENSE could be nice to see too)

[unique oriole]

They were personal so never bothered

[buoyant seal]

u asked to review. if u are showing your github, that will be reviewed.

[unique oriole]

Hhaa yep

Makes sense they wouldn't know what i was thinking

[buoyant seal]

description of a project
and how to use section are kind of essential minimum
preferably prebuilt/released for usage with minimum effort 😄 (and available for downloading in its Github releases under semantic versioned tags with descriptions of changelogs between versions)
screenshots and diagrams in README are highly beneficial to show off project without effort for person to setup it

[unique oriole]

I will edit all repos and hide the useless once

[pastel thunder]

had my first actual online meet with manager after completion of training.
It was the first actual meet where he didnt had any of his senior, he:

1. said hes the only guy responsible for handling the whole back end of our particular project
2. ranted considerably and called names about how his seniors only talks and dont contribute at all.
3. also mentioned that if we didnt reply immediately when he pings us, he might be forced to call us office everyday.
4. and that if we try to slack off, he will intentionally give us more, harder tasks to give us more trouble (literally)
5. started the meet with aim to solve bug and to familiarize us with the code, BUT ended above doing what i explained in above 4 pt, wasnt able to solve anything, continued meeting to 30 min post off time, and at the end mentioned how he continue to work and will also work even on the holiday tomorrow.

The last point particularly concerns me. And i am scared now.

[marsh wind]

I did indeed. But that was first and foremost about phd in physics or other STEM but not CS/AI/stats

[buoyant seal]

run 😲

[buoyant seal]

That looks like highly toxic environment, that will make you poisoned for normal work after that... Or u will be abused and emotionally damaged. In any case mental and physical health in quite danger

[buoyant seal]

The first point raises some concerns but was okay, bit starting from 4th.. that is some serious trash

I saw on one horrible video showing one company where such things existed... Well it is horrible that it exists

[marsh wind]

I second that a lot. Run while you can

[buoyant seal]

When considering 4th and 5th, 3th starts to look quite grim. And 2th too and 1st. Without 4 and 5 there was some chance, but with 4 and 5, they all total full trash in sum. 2-3 kind of too negative only from the start. Only 1st point was Innocent initially. In any case, together they are horrific multi combo

[marsh wind]

do you really have no peers who did PhD or who are doing now? Because PhD is a rather different (a lot really) experience from doing BSc and MSc and lot more taxing and time consuming (ie in US it's known that PIs would often hold their PhDs for 6-7 years before letting them defend)

[regal axle]

I only have 2 people who are doing a PhD that I know. They both tell me how painful it is. But then also tell me that they agree that I would do well in it.
But yes, part of the issue is that I don't have people to talk to about this. Besides them, I don't know anyone doing a PhD. Some people who are doing/did a MS; but like you said, they are vastly different

[marsh wind]

I'd also suggest you to look around PhD reddit (if my memore serves me well it's /r/phd), it's not the most representative community but I found it to be better than majortiy of subreddits

[sonic pike]

guys im doing a rpoject for my school and i made an interface for like a casino, i put the buttons and all, do i have to download mysql to make the buttons interact?

[regal axle]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[regal axle]

It seems to be super pessimistic. Not sure what you are getting at though? I have a desire to get a PhD. I know there are a lot of things out of my control that can make it horrible. But that doesn't mean that all of the sudden I don't want a PhD anymore.
Right now I need to figure out how best to go about getting one and how to qualify what schools are reach, target, and safety. That way I can focus on schools I have a chance of getting into and also they do work in the space I want

[modern ore]

frontend

[modern ore]

You wanna get into academia?

[gritty rivet]

I did work many years on a non-STEM PhD, knew a few people in CS and other engineering fields.

One thing I would suggest is to focus on identifying faculty you want to work with if at all possible, and reach out to them and their students.

I mean faculty in the US sense of the word... Individual profs

[regal axle]

Through what? Linkedin? Or just looking for their email on the school's website?
Not sure how people find their students.

[regal axle]

#career-advice message

[delicate bane]

ah yes i remember now

[gritty rivet]

Yes, all that. And look at who is writing the research papers that are most interesting to you

[regal axle]

Makes sense

[nova halo]

Im currently working on an AI book generator do you guys think it could be profitable as a web service?

[elder forge]

Make sure you talk to the other students. All universities have some good, some bad, and some toxic supervisors. You do not want to end up with one in the last category.
For an outsider, the only way to tell is to talk to the existing students.

[peak halo]

How would you make sure the book has a coherent plot over tens of thousands of words?

[peak halo]

Also I thought this was #data-science-and-ml

[near bison]

Question: If you go to a tech coding interview, are they allowed to:

• Use one of their codebase issues as the programming problem to the possible hire.

• Keep the working solution (if provided by the possible hire) and not hire the person who provided it.

• Do either of the above without possible hire being informed.

I've always wondered if companies just use interviews to get answers on something they current employees can't solve lol

[smoky quest]

I've always wondered if companies just use interviews to get answers on something they current employees can't solve lol

Anything can happen but highly implausible

[fringe sphinx]

If the company is so incompetent that with no background knowledge, a rando engineer can waltz in and provide something useful, you wouldn’t want to work there anyway. (And yah, +1 for implausible)

[near bison]

Very fair lol

[late flame]

I've heard that rumor before but I don't think it's ever actually been tried.

I kinda want to see what it looks like to have a rotating group of random people work on an open source project.

[marsh wind]

Well I see you have a conviction and that's exactly what I was getting at. In my XP more people than I thought don't have that strong of a motivation to do phd. And that's, well, a different situation all together.

Back to your question though, I do still recommend to look around and talk in reddit and see more targeted communities, PyDis is not the one with many PhDs 😁 I am still fairly certain that not having papers is not a prohibitive factor but I didn't do PhD in AI /ML nor it was in US.

[vapid jay]

No, I don't think so.

[vapid jay]

How is being able to provide something useful quickly logically related to a company being "so incompetent"?

[summer roost]

I think you misread the message you replied to... Or maybe you missed the context.

It's got nothing to do with "providing something useful quickly"

[gilded valley]

the stories I've heard are from people working in e.g Risk or optimisation, where there is some very specific numerical problem where an additional expert viewpoint - even if it is only for an hour - is very valuable

[visual swift]

how long does it take to go from knowing literally zero code to being able to do programming as a job. (I have no high or low expectations, I would be equally content if the answer was 6 years as if it was 2 weeks). I really think this is a direction I want to go with my life and career but I am not really sure what to realistically expect. I am sure it depends a lot on numerus variables but I am just looking for a general realistic expectation.

[vapid jay]

It depends on the demands of the job.

[vapid jay]

Maybe 10 years.
Source: https://norvig.com/21-days.html
From: Distinguished Education Fellow at the Stanford Institute for Human-Centered AI. Previously director of research and search quality at Google

[summer roost]

Oh, wait, I think I see the lens you're interpreting the message you replied to from. You don't understand why it's implausible for a candidate to deliver something with business value over the course of an interview, and you think that some candidates could quickly deliver code that would be useful to a reasonable company.

That basically boils down to this: if the company has a problem that it can't solve and that it wants to "outsource" to candidates in the guise of an interview, and that problem is so small and so well defined that an average developer who has never seen any of the company's existing code can come up with a solution for it, then it clearly indicates that the company does not currently have any competent engineers. Surely if the average engineer with no domain knowledge and no context can solve the problem in an hour, that company's own employees should be able to solve that problem without tricking candidates into doing it for them.

[vapid jay]

Maybe 2-3 days if the demands of the job are such that you could ask ChatGPT and adjust that output to do something useful.

[summer roost]

Plenty of people enter a CS degree program without ever having written code before, and land full time programming jobs at the end of it. I'd guess that around 4 to 6 years is the average. Some people manage to do it much faster, often by taking less demanding, more pigeonholed jobs

[vapid jay]

It could be that the candidate knows something, like a new software feature in a recent release the company does not use, or has had some experience (e.g. losing data, learning to back up off site) which current engineers do not see yet, etc. The two things aren't logically correlated as they are purported to be.

[summer roost]

The question wasn't about the candidate knowing something that the company's engineers don't. You're right, that happens all the time. It was about the company shipping the candidate's code to production. That will happen so close to never that it's not worth spending time worrying about.

[vapid jay]

I replied to:

If the company is so incompetent that with no background knowledge, a rando engineer can waltz in and provide something useful
yes, one could write CREATE INDEX and solve a problem. Or apt-get install redis and improve performance with the default configuration. etc.

I dispute the strength of that statement.

[summer roost]

Did you read what that message was replying to?

Even for something where a candidate knows about a new feature in some tool that the company could be using, it's totally implausible that, in the context of an interview, while solving something that seems like a normal interview question, they'd use that feature in their solution in a way that the company could just steal the code.

[vapid jay]

It's plausible. e.g. run that part of the code via PyPy if you have performance problems with it. Just that script. The company hadn't thought of that.

[summer roost]

that's not what the question was about

[hexed harbor]

this maybe isn't the right place to ask this, but are there any data engineers out there who i could DM regarding their work? I'm struggling to find a field that I'm interested in pursuing. Data engineering looks really interesting, but I'm having trouble finding specifics and practical information

[smoky quest]

https://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Data-Engineering-Robust-Systems/dp/1098108302 is a great book to learn more about it

[summer roost]

you're right that this is plausible. You're taking the sentence you replied to out of context if you're construing it to mean that this isn't possible.

[vapid jay]

The question was about (quote):

Use one of their codebase issues as the programming problem to the possible hire.
Keep the working solution

[hexed harbor]

i'm actually about 60% of the way through that book. the big thing is it doesn't exactly take a "new to the industry as a whole" approach. A lot of it seems like stuff that's more important to managers and project leads than someone on the bottom rung

[vapid jay]

This is the context and in that context it is plausible. So the strength of the statement was unjustified.

[summer roost]

right. And "use pypy" is certainly not an example of something that would satisfy this.

at least, not in a way where it would plausibly seem to be a normal interview question.

[smoky quest]

Any specific point you have questions about?
The leads and managers may care about the bigger picture and how it fits within the company. But the entry level engineer will make it happen

[hexed harbor]

mostly things around "what does the average day look like". Books and posts i've read talk a lot about technologies and architectural decisions. Before i dig too deep into it, i want to make sure the job actually entails what i think it does lol

[vapid jay]

I think so. e.g. question is "what are the typical optimisations you can add to a Python program, we deserialise JSON in memory and have to run many projections of the data to get to a final object to send back, such as in this function which takes a JSON and returns another, in which order would you do the filtering, chopping, etc.?". A candidate could say something which exits the problem, such as: oh, don't do that algorithmically more than once if you can use caching. Use PyPy for the performance-sensitive part of that loop, with no code changes, just an executable swap. Add an index to the database and retrieve a subset from the database already without a round trip. Save and reuse pre-computed values with a time window of tolerance for stale data (as above). Swap your lists for Numpy arrays, vectorise the initial aggregate functions and then make your JSON object from there. Of course they could give an idea in the context of a programming question and they could end up using it and of course that has nothing to do with the competence of the company.

Not only that, but the candidate could also just know about a method from having listened to a University lecture and be unable to implement it themselves.. still... even in that case... you'd have a scenario which the comment seemed to want to exclude. The strength of the comment was unwarranted.

[summer roost]

Taking your own examples above: would you want to work for a company who had a database that couldn't serve some access pattern quickly enough, and none of the engineers who worked at that company realized that all that was needed was a new index on the DB, but you noticed that within minutes in the context of an interview?

[smoky quest]

Think about things like:

• There is this database in production. It's your job to make sure the data is replicated in a timely and reliable manner to athena/bigquery/snowflake, etc.
• The data from that db in prod is tailored for the app in terms of schema, indexing, technologies. That may be very different from the access patterns in data engineering. So you have to work on a new schema and transform that data to that

You may have to deal with scale, costs, etc.

[vapid jay]

I would work at any company right now as I never had a job and it would help to have one on the CV. The point was not whether you'd want to work there or not. And political dynamics exist at companies whereby sometimes it is easier to accept a suggestion from the outside than daring to propose it internally at some risk of social capital internally. Or people are so focused on one aspect that they lose sight of something else. It's not about competence but context. So, yeah, I stay of my opinion and consider the statement too strongly worded for the quality of its logic.

[summer roost]

I'm finding your position here hard to take at face value. I can only assume you're playing devil's advocate if you claim not to understand why it would reflect poorly on a company if they have a problem that the current employees can't solve, but that a typical candidate could solve within minutes in the context of an interview.

The point was not whether you'd want to work there or not
That was exactly the point. The rest of the sentence you replied to was "you wouldn’t want to work there anyway"

[smoky quest]

I would also add that both incentives and economics on either sides of the equation do not line up.

[summer roost]

mind elaborating? I'm guessing you mean to say that the company would have a whole lot more to gain by hiring the candidate who came up with the brilliant, insightful fix for the production problem than to steal their suggestion and not hire them?

or possibly something about the legal risks of stealing copyrighted code that you don't have a license to use...

[hexed harbor]

hmm, lemme try coming at it from the opposite angle: the project i've had the most fun with so far is a parser that takes replay files from a game, looks for specific events, then records a bunch of information about those events. I don't even really do anything with that extra data (i.e. the data science/statistics stuff), i just like making the pipeline. Does that fall under the scope of data engineering, or is that further up/down the track?

[vapid jay]

Even "you wouldn’t want to work there anyway" is too strongly worded. How do you know that the person could use a first job? Too strong an opinion to be helpful. The true answer is: yes they could be using an idea you supply in an interview, yes they could be asking a question similar to the problems they face, yes you could walk in creatively offer them a new vantage point they hadn't thought about and yes you'd have no recourse in that case, however likely or unlikely that may be. All of the phrasing about "randos" and "you would not want to work there" are too strongly worded because, for example, one might be a good fit specifically because they have an area of expertise they are lacking, as proven by the 1 hour experiment, which would make for a good start in terms of added value.

[smoky quest]

As a candidate, there is no point in working for a company where you can rock their world in less than one hour. And as a candidate, I have no incentive to protect or attempt to monetize any learning. If anything, it's more like the freebie to show them the value in hiring me.

As a company, there are multiple issues with attempting to "rob" ideas:

• Cool you give me the idea about redis. But if that was a blocker, so will it be to take it all the way to production and understand the nuances around it
• Who am I gonna call next time something is wrong?
• If you generate that much value, I would rather pay you on an on-going basis

[summer roost]

The "you" referred to a hypothetical average candidate, not to any specific person.

[vapid jay]

This is so far off that I decide not to reply to it.

[summer roost]

no you didn't?

[hexed harbor]

i know it probably sounds silly, whether it is or not. With such a broad scope and so much arcane knowledge, it's hard to pinpoint exactly where what i want to do starts and ends. Like logically i understand what ETL means, but practically i feel like i'd get it a lot better if i had an example in front of me of exactly what that looks like

[vapid jay]

Absolutely. Yes. Read "you" as "one". You are right.

[smoky quest]

this is not really helping

[vapid jay]

I was wrong. I meant "I will not dispute it" like I did for the message above.

[vapid jay]

It does inject a healthy sense of doubt at least, without confronting you directly, to be nice to you.

[summer roost]

it was not nice.

[vapid jay]

I'll rephrase it. Dear user @smoky quest your message comes from a good place and I respect it but I think it (not you as a person) should be taken with a pinch of salt, in my own personal and fallible opinion. I apologise pre-emptively in case this dissonance makes you feel uneasy, it's not meant to do so. It's only to inject a healthy dose of doubt, which should be allowed.

[smoky quest]

sounds like you are out of arguments

[vapid jay]

Yes, Sir. I am.

Of course.

[smoky quest]

Practice could help.

Deploy a random application and try to go through what the book describe or the example I described above.
For instance, deploy something like wordpress or some other app and go through the whole lifecycle so that at the end, you can have

• dashboards about key metrics (registration, usage)
• construct some fake metric if necessary

Alternatively, doing a DE internship could be a great opportunity to get more exposure and your feet wet into that area

[hexed harbor]

i'm 1 year into self taught, an internship is very likely a no-go in the short term unfortunately. I guess what i'm unsure of is this: the book treats data ingestion as this handwave-y "it exists out there and here's what ingestion looks like", but it's not very easy for me to tell what exactly that means. Is that ingested data from some other database, or is it raw unprocessed data in json files, or both? How much of one's responsibilities fall under "programming" vs "database manipulation" (for lack of a better way to put it)

[smoky quest]

It's hand wavy because it could come from different sources. Sometimes even multiple sources and types at the same time.
So you should be ready to have a production database you have to tap into without affecting it (and then there are many ways, going from dumps to change data capture), or even through event/message brokers. Or some json file dumped somewhere

[hexed harbor]

my interests (i think) lie closer to raw data -> initial workable format vs database administration and managing migrations and stuff. Except, i don't know what the job title of the former is called lol

[smoky quest]

the programming abilities for a DE position would be lower than let's say a frontend or backend engineer. The expectations would be more in the scale of scripts. But as with anything, there are sliding scales and different people may have different strengths

[smoky quest]

DE is at the cross of multiple disciplines. In addition to the skills you listed, you should also be familiar with cloud technologies for instance

[gilded valley]

Data Engineering as a role - writing ETL pipelines etc - seems to be slowly being subsumed by platform engineering roles which are focused on using cloud tooling to abstract as much as possible away from data engineers, and directly into the hands of consumers (scientists, analysts etc)

[hexed harbor]

iunno, i feel like i'm still not entirely clear on what that stuff actually "means" on the day-to-day scale. Like when i worked at fedex my job was to help packages get from trailers on 1 side of the building to trailers on the other side of the building. That explanation is so generalized as to be meaningless if you don't already know what the job functions are or the structure of a typical sort

like some days i was unloading, some days i was sorting, some days i was loading, some days i dealt with envelopes. When i was a slightly fancier package handler, my job was to deal with distressed packages and coordinate with the contractors. Each of those sets of responsibilities is very different, and even those are just smaller-scoped generalizations.

[knotty oar]

Could anyone share the az-204 dumps for azure certification please?

[dense mesa]

!rule 5

[inner wren]

Rules

5. Do not provide or request help on projects that may violate terms of service, or that may be deemed inappropriate, malicious, or illegal.

[hexed harbor]

if it's something i'm going to spend time learning and (eventually) doing every day, i'd at least like to know what that actually entails - what does the code i'd write "look like" (lots of SQL? data validation? data scrubbing? i have no idea), what does it mean to "upkeep" a database in the long-term? Even if i understand the lifecycle of data and how to make a database, it's hard to understand how much would need to be done to that database, each day, by an entire team, for years

[smoky quest]

Have you setup a database locally? Written SQL queries? Used dbt?

Any personal projects relevant to DE?
(that may help understand me better what you have done or not)

[hexed harbor]

does SQLite count? it's not exactly much to "set up" but i've played with sqlite databases a bit

[smoky quest]

sqlite does not count

[plain valley]

Is there any websites that fully coded in python

[hexed harbor]

then what does count?

[plain valley]

Like backend only

[smoky quest]

Playing with a full blown SQL db such as mysql or postgresql. Ideally, it would be a database in AWS or GCP

[hexed harbor]

from what i understand, that shouldn't be all that much different for the scale of the projects i'd be playing with

[smoky quest]

it would be different because you now have to deal with a real database that will have partitioning, auth, and a few other features. And on top of that, being in the cloud, you now have to learn about cloud services and how they integrate and interact

I would strongly suggest to not just read books, but also to practice at the same time. For instance going through some of the projects related to data engineers. Ex: https://www.simplilearn.com/tutorials/big-data-tutorial/data-engineering-projects

[gilded valley]

the core work is taking raw data - flat files, messages from some external system, or an application database - cleaning and sometimes enhancing it, then storing it in a target database/warehouse.

much of the trickiness comes around ensuring data is sufficiently enriched with metadara like timestamps to make sure both engineers and consumers can be happy that the data in production is correct, timely and valid.

SQL is the key skill

[smoky quest]

We are lucky that most tools are open source and readily available to everyone. Taking your analogy of a fedex job, you can get the opportunity to actually do the same job at home and to experience first hand with the same tools and processes.

[hexed harbor]

it's kinda hard to practice if you don't know what you're supposed to be practicing lol. That's why i'm here asking (and, at least partially, what books for "beginners" should be teaching)

[hexed harbor]

thank you, this is pretty much exactly what i was looking for.

[smoky quest]

That's also why I am point you out to https://www.simplilearn.com/tutorials/big-data-tutorial/data-engineering-projects that clearly articulate the expected outcome

[vapid jay]

I can only assume you're playing devil's advocate if you claim not to understand why it would reflect poorly on a company if they have a problem that the current employees can't solve, but that a typical candidate could solve within minutes in the context of an interview.

I didn't say "can't solve". I said:

you could walk in creatively offer them a new vantage point they hadn't thought about

which is both realistic and counters the point I opposed. Here's a concrete example based on that JSON programming imaginary interview question but plausible scenario: candidate says - "if your database is PostgreSQL and you don't plan to support other engines in the foreseeable future, why are you doing your JSON field extraction in your mid-tier at all? how about you ALTER TABLE t ADD COLUMN jb JSONB then INSERT INTO t(jb) (SELECT x::json FROM t); with x being your original TEXT column and do something like SELECT jb['name'] FROM t; but as sophisticated as you like as you have jsonpath support there?

The company decides that the candidate just saved them AWS $ of marshalling data back and forth and hires the,, with the candidate being happy (not unhappy) to work there and have a niche of immediately applicable expertise the company will value.

Nobody was incompetent. Nobody needed to discount anybody so superficially. Business value was created.

Is it realistic, again, that a company does not see that their "customer proximity look-ups" are best handled by the DB directly using geo types? It is possible, yes. And somebody who did a Uni project just on that could help setting it up with examples and be worth even a temp hire.

[vapid jay]

I do Project Euler. It's practice...

[vapid jay]

Where does one learn SQL as a key skill?

[hexed harbor]

It's too easy to skim things that are incredibly important, and/or dump endless hours into things that don't matter or never come up, or aren't that important until you have XYZ fundamental skill. You need to know what you're supposed to be learning before you start a project

[smoky quest]

This is an unrealistic scenario. It doesn't work like that in a real job.

[vapid jay]

Ok. You know because you have a job. How does it work in a real job, from the point of view of somebody who has one to somebody who doesn't have one?

[gilded valley]

if you want practice that is definitely useful, then do SQL exercises on e.g Leetcode.

it will be less useful than project work, but still valuable

[vapid jay]

They are too hard. Is there anything easier to start with?

[gilded valley]

Dear user @vapid jay your question comes from a good place and I respect it but I think it (not you as a person) should be taken as potential argument-searching, in my own personal and fallible opinion. I apologise pre-emptively in case this dissonance makes you feel uneasy, it's not meant to do so. It's only to inject a healthy dose of doubt, which should be allowed.

[hexed harbor]

i got burned too many times when i was learning c++ where they just teach things out of order, make wild assumptions about prior knowledge, etc. =/ it's always great to learn the thing i'd been banging my head against a wall trying to understand literally couldn't possibly make sense to me until 2 chapters from now when they introduce the thing that makes this make sense

[vapid jay]

I like this phrasing! But... doubt about what? SQL being a key skill? You said it was and I just quoted you..

[smoky quest]

I understand you are in a tough position as a self learner. There are tons of unknown unknowns.

As an engineer, the requirements will be vague and there will be multiple potential solutions, each with their own trade offs.
And most often, people will come up to you with problems even less specified than on the list of projects I sent.

Being able to decompose problems in smaller problems you can solve and research is a very valuable skill.
So in your case, taking one of these projects and working through the things you would need to learn to accomplish it is a great exercise. Most people in this server would be more than happy to help you with that

[hexed harbor]

like who the fuck teaches pointers before functions and classes?

[vapid jay]

Is it bad?

[gilded valley]

doubt as to the good faith of your engaging in this channel

[vapid jay]

What an attack to the character of the person. Foundation?

[zealous path]

It’s way too ahead

[trim gull]

im trying to learn python, any tips ? any routes i should take etc

[vapid jay]

The message is:

like who the fuck teaches pointers before functions and classes?
in C you learn pointers before ever learning about classes so.. it's possible to study pointers without classes and thus before classes. And it's also possible to study pointers before functions. Is it bad? I am not sure it is..

[hexed harbor]

i totally get that, but i'd just rather not waste my time on "beginner" resources that aren't structured or written for beginners. Even then, i'd rather work on a project of my own rather than something pre-canned, so i can force myself to understand the concept and apply it to something "new" rather than just blindly following a tutorial or "just make it match the output it wants"-ing.

[smoky quest]

How can I help you get started on a project of your own?

[hexed harbor]

i really liked "python crash course" and then "beyond the basic stuff with python". "Automate the boring stuff" also gives a really nice overview of the types of things you can do in python if you're more interested in starting with something practical

[trim gull]

alr ty will look into it, currently have very little knowledge looking to improve lol

[vapid jay]

who says it's "way too" ahead?!

int a = 1, b = 2,  c[] = {3, 4, 5};                      
int* d = c;                                              
printf("%d %d %d %d %d\n", a, b, *d, *(d + 1), *(d + 2));
*d = 0;                                                  
printf("%d %d %d %d %d\n", a, b, *d, *(d + 1), *(d + 2));

..

1 2 3 4 5
1 2 0 4 5

should be easy to read and understand to introduce the discussion..

Also:

int a = 1, b = 2;       
printf("%d %d\n", a, b);
int* c;                 
c = &a;                 
*c = 3;                 
c = &b;                 
*c = 4;                 
printf("%d %d\n", a, b);

... and ... it's not crazy:

1 2
3 4

[hexed harbor]

I have a fair amount of table-d data from the file parser i made. I was planning on dumping it into an sqlite database and making some sort of abstracted interface over the raw SQL (partially to refine my sql, partially because this is a library that's intended to be used lol). You said sqlite doesn't really count though, so would you recommend just jumping straight into postgres and/or cloud stuff right away?

[vapid jay]

I recommend Project Euler.

[vapid jay]

SQLite counts.

[hexed harbor]

i guess the followup is - how "much" cloud info is it really necessary for me to know atm? Cuz there's literally an infinite amount of literature on 800 billion different cloud options and there's so many acronyms it makes me want to die

[vapid jay]

Depends on the job? Which job?

[dense mesa]

It really doesn't

[hexed harbor]

don't worry about him, he's been trolling for a bit now

[vapid jay]

What does SQLite not count Vs or for?

[smoky quest]

You could start with sqlite as a stepping stone. But you should end up with a proper db

[dense mesa]

Yeah I block the messages usually, just saw a lot of them so wanted to see what was being said lol

[smoky quest]

that's a terrible advice

[vapid jay]

What does SQLite not count as?

[hexed harbor]

can i ask why sqlite doesn't count (assuming a non-cloud environment)?

[vapid jay]

See? People do wonder.. why does it "not count"? I am not alone.

[smoky quest]

It's not close enough to what would be used in real life. Because of the way it works and what it's made for, it doesn't expose you to the same skills

[hexed harbor]

which skills specifically? reading up on the specs of both, it looks like 90% of the unique features of postgres are things that would be irrelevant to me (or a minor implementation difference) no matter what project i'd be doing

to be clear, i'm fine using postgres, doesn't matter to me, this is just curiousity

[vapid jay]

My question exactly.. what specifically is @smoky quest alluding to that would be in "non-SQLite" that SQLite does not have which would make training on SQLite somehow unsuitable? Seems like strongly worded advice without the detail.. I'd like to hear the detail.

[gilded valley]

most data warehouses are built on top of column oriented databases - and they have in-built scalable compute - so SQLite is optimising for completely different things

[vapid jay]

Is SQLite not column-oriented?

[gilded valley]

duckdb is a better equivalent for playing locally with analytically databases

[vapid jay]

There is value in recommending something to a user asking for advice. There is also value in asking for a clarification for something vague. I can add that value. There is also value in tuning down categorical advice which isn't as clear-cut as it's purported to be. I can add that value.

[gilded valley]

This is a question I've already answered and which is trivial for you to check yourself

[dense mesa]

Dude you haven't added any value in any messages I've seen coming from you

[vapid jay]

SQLite is column-oriented so I don't see the contrast:

most data warehouses are built on top of column oriented databases

[vapid jay]

@hexed harbor I hadn't noticed you are looking for "analytical databases" specifically? Are you? What is an "analytical database"?

[smoky quest]

Ignoring the differences in capabilities of SQL proper, you would miss on the whole experience about having a server dealing with the data and connecting to it. Additionally some example of specific skills could be related to partitioning for instance, where sqlite still lacks there.
SQLite may not be the best if you want to test out or demonstrate some skills with Tb of data.

I would also include the fact that your resume and projects may not be taken as seriously during interviews if you use toy services like sqlite rather than something used in the field

[vapid jay]

What kind of partitioning are you referring to?

[gilded valley]

@vapid jay stop trying to gotcha people when you're so far out of your depth

and just being wrong about things

[vapid jay]

What specifically am I wrong about?

[gilded valley]

this

most things that you talk about

[vapid jay]

SQLite is not column based?

Well.. now I now.

[smoky quest]

A terrible analogy is that to think about the field like big trucks moving lots of data. So it's slow but moving a lot. They also have their own design choices and trade offs.
Bringing up sqlite is like talking about a prius when people will want to talk to you about big rigs. A prius is still great to learn about driving (or SQL here), but you should eventually graduate to big trucks

[vapid jay]

One could be a successful Android dev building only using SQLite and not "graduate to big trucks" and make lots of money that way.. why the inevitability of "having to graduate to big trucks"?

[dense mesa]

Because which company is hiring someone to do small scale data engineering? How can you come up with such complete nonsense 🤔

[gilded valley]

SQLite is not a analytical database. it is not trying to be.

you are not seeking advice, you're not looking to learn, you're just picking holes without even understanding what's being said

[vapid jay]

But.. is SQLite for small scale only?

[hexed harbor]

makes sense. I figured server-side stuff would just be more configuration nonsense, which usually doesn't take very long to learn. You're right though that it's probably worth my time to learn it now anyway.

In defense of our troll though, the reason i gravitated towards SQLite to begin with is because most of the Kindle file system is handled through modified SQLite and i spent some time digging around the raw files a while back. I totally understand what you mean though, and i definitely wasn't aware of the difference in capability between the two

[vapid jay]

https://www.sqlite.org/limits.html
the limits seem immense

[vapid jay]

Who is the troll?

[dense mesa]

I really don't understand what your end goal is here. It doesn't seem to be trolling as much as it is incessant attention seeking

[smoky quest]

yeah. There are also tools that I don't even think would work with sqlite. ex: debezium for CDC.

SQLite not being suited for DE roles does not imply SQLite is terrible. The same way a prius is not a terrible car (but completely unsuited to move large amount of goods across states).
I love SQLite for what it's good at, which is having an embedded db in a file

[vapid jay]

Don't worry about SQLite because... debezium might not work with it? Debezium? Wow.

[gilded valley]

Duckdb is a good alternative to SQLite which has more practical applications in data engineering.

SQLite does have applications in data eng, e.g datasette, but not many

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> at this point, they are just being disruptive to the channel and preventing normal discourse

[vapid jay]

If the advice is not good, I like to point it out.

What for?

[hexed harbor]

looks pretty neat, i'll definitely give it a spin at some point

[smoky quest]

You may want to check out these slides as well: https://db.in.tum.de/teaching/ss19/moderndbs/duckdb-tum.pdf
They do a good job at covering it.

As a by product, you will also note there are more occurrences of "analytics" than "data engineering" in that side.

[hexed harbor]

wait now i've circled back to being confused again. Everything that's mentioned looks like internals, i.e. that's just the way it is, but i would end up interacting with the database in the exact same way on my end, it's just that the result would be faster

[smoky quest]

The confusion may stem from the fact you will interact with different databases that do have different trade offs.
For instance, you may want to have the data in the prod database being shipped to s3/kafka/whatever, and to eventually end up in a data warehouse.
Both the prod database and the data warehouse will offer some SQL interface but still be different in some ways and trade offs

[gilded valley]

the internals have a strong bearing on the choices you make when interacting with the database.

you do things that work well with the database in question

[smoky quest]

Some data warehouse are just a distributed query engine over distributed files. That changes quite a bit the trade offs comparing to something like duckdb or postgres

[gilded valley]

"faster" is often the difference between feasible (a process taking an hour) and infeasible (a process taking 2 weeks)

[hexed harbor]

i mean sure, but in a toy project handling a few GB of data with fairly simple queries and joins, it literally doesn't matter. If the only thing that changes is the internals, the developer doesn't have to learn anything groundbreakingly new when moving from 1 DB to another. At that point, what does it matter if it's sqlite or duckdb, or even postgres (aside from the server stuff i guess)

its just weird to me that y'all are so vehemently against sqlite when it looks like i could replace import squlite3 with import duckdb and it'd still work without me having to change anything else

[smoky quest]

until you want to show you understand how to setup/manage analytics replicas, until you want to show you understand CDC, until etc.

[hexed harbor]

i mean that might matter once i actually know what that means

[smoky quest]

the fact people care about it here, may be hint that it should matter at some point

[gilded valley]

sure - but that's the nature of toy projects, that choices don't really matter that much - the point is for it to emulate a real world project so you can talk about the choices made in an interview (and understand the tradeoffs even if they don't matter)

[hexed harbor]

i'm not saying it doesn't matter, i'm saying you're telling me to consider how my paper glider will handle re-entry into earth's atmosphere

[smoky quest]

to me it's bread and butter, not rocket science

[gilded valley]

the point is that if your goal is to learn data engineering, you may as well use tools that are used in the real world rather than irrelevant ones.

getting some data into SQLite is a fine project, but it's just worse than building a toy data warehouse with DuckDB

[smoky quest]

to be clear, once you get more familiar with DE, these terms won't feel as big. They are actually pretty straightforward concepts once you get acquainted.
I would add it to the list of unknown unknowns for now

[hexed harbor]

i'll remind you again that i'm ~1 year into self taught programming, with a recent interest in data engineering. What's obvious to you is rocket science to me since my perspective is quite literally non-existant.

[dense mesa]

That just reinforces taking advice from people who are quite likely to have more experience

[hexed harbor]

i am, it's just the logic behind that advice didn't make a whole lot of sense from where i'm standing. I don't like blindly following advice because "someone smarter than me said it so it must be true" when i can just ask some extra questions and understand why it's true in the first place

[dense mesa]

That makes sense and I would ask questions as well, but there's some perspectives that won't make a lot of sense without a great deal of context, and that context can be difficult to explain

Companies/larger organisations will do things that seemingly make no sense when viewed externally, but are basically just business as usual practices internally

Eg sqlite is fine for most personal use cases, but there's a wide range of reasons a business wouldn't want to use it

So if you're trying to showcase employable skills, sqlite is better than nothing, but showing direct experience with a tool they're already using is very valuable

[smoky quest]

which part specifically?
If you are very early in your journey, sqlite is great to learn about SQL.
If you want to showcase DE skills, you will want to demonstrate analytics replicas, CDC and other skills for which sqlite wouldn't work.

[hexed harbor]

yee, demystifying arcane knowledge is tough. It just kinda sucks because (at least where i've been looking) there are all these "beginner resources", books, articles, projects, etc. that seem like they spend so much time on the forest, they forget to make sure i understand that it's made out of trees. Programming in general seems to have a lot of that. I hope i haven't been too annoying/difficult, i'm not disagreeing with what anyone has said here, just looking for clarification.

The way my brain works, it's hard to learn via "pillars" (i.e. limited-scope examples that covers beginning-to-end usage of a single feature). I have trouble connecting the disparate pieces without a solid foundation, so it's easier for me to learn "layer by layer"

[dense mesa]

Nah it's completely understandable and it's a very valuable learning experience. The working environment is going to use tech in ways that are initially seemingly unusual but going through that is an important part of the junior process

[smoky quest]

no worries, it's a journey and part of the fun.
DE is also very broad and requires quite a few different skills.

You may have to pick a topic/thread and go from there.
I would also suggest again to pick a project of your choosing to get some hands on and concrete experience. It will help place the concepts together

[dense mesa]

I'm exactly the same and it slowed me down when I was initially learning SWE in a work environment. The main thing that helped me was to think this way: if I'm driving or designing a car, I don't need to know the intricacies of how the engine works in terms of individual pistons, etc. I can just think of them as sub-systems that almost always perform the same function.

Same with programming, I want to understand the underlying tech down to low-level if possible, but at some point the lack of time means I just have to abstract it away as a sub-system and move forward.

As someone famous in CS once said (can't remember who), it's abstraction all the way down

[hexed harbor]

yee, that makes perfect sense. I've done a bit in sql, but i'm not comfortable with it, so my priorities were leaning more towards the former than the latter. One of the things that sucks about self-taught is i have absolutely no way to tell how "close" i am to being "good enough" to get a job, so i never bother planning for interviews

[hexed harbor]

bruh where were you 6 months ago 😭 i literally wrote an entire cpu emulator, assembler, VM, and compiler because i HAD to know how it worked

i was even mad that the book handwaved away how transistors and the initial logic gate worked

[dense mesa]

If you have that on GitHub/somewhere public, that would go a long way to showcase in an interview

The book 'Code' by Charles Petzold is a good "bottom-up" approach to this

[hexed harbor]

https://github.com/Walnut356/hack_emu

wrote it all in rust =) i'm not 100% done with the compiler, but it is what it is. "The elements of computing systems"/nand2tetris if you're ever interested

i had a lot of fun with it until refactoring the compiler 700 times killed my motivation LOL

[dense mesa]

Out of interest, what attracts you more to data engineering? That looks like a good project

[hexed harbor]

i'm not a big fan of C's tooling and i don't think i'm smart enough for embedded in general. I like data science, but every "data science" thing i've ever tried, i liked building the data pipeline so much that i kept fiddling with it instead of actually doing data science

i also can't really go to college, and afaik some sort of math degree is basically required for data science

[dense mesa]

You could look for data analyst positions then use Python to showcase you're able to do more complex stuff

[keen mica]

i got started learning tutorail and some if else , etc all statement , can you suggest some or from where i can find any idea

[dense mesa]

Building pipelines is way more related to data engineering, and the skills there are very different to "just doing" data analysis

[buoyant seal]

besides Python u could also aim yourself for Java-based language stack for a more challenge 😉
There is whole data engineering ecosystem around Java present

[dense mesa]

May be trickier for a beginner...

[hexed harbor]

oh no

[buoyant seal]

he considered embedded 😄 surely in comparison to embedded, just Java is managable

[hexed harbor]

LOL

tbh if i learn any other language this year it's gonna be c#. literally every job in my state and the next state over is c#

[dense mesa]

I think it would be highly overkill to create an end to end data pipeline in Java

If you're looking to showcase skills and get employed, that's a massive time investment when Python is adequate enough for many use cases

[buoyant seal]

C#? that's interesting hot take. They made it more Linux friendly deployable in last years.
I am still hestitant anyway regarding that, but potentially promising nevertheless
it has good enough web ecosystem support for its usage

i prefer for now diving more into Java though, looks less risky in terms of Microsoft/Windows to me
Not wishing even remote chances someone inviting me to work with Windows for web (with Java it should be not a problem)

[hexed harbor]

oh, it's purely practical. I don't even think i like c# as a language that much, but something like 7 in 10 jobs within 100 miles of me are c# + asp.net + azure

[buoyant seal]

then it makes sense for you to learn C# for sure
local market domination makes sense as a reason to choose it

[hexed harbor]

it means i have to learn webdev though 🤢

[buoyant seal]

C# is usable for windows desktop and for web.

[hexed harbor]

yee, knowing my luck i'll get shoved in the webdev hole anyway lmao either way, getting a job is likely still a ways off for me and hopefully i won't even have to learn c# at all =D

[crisp stream]

this channel's for discussing career-related things
you might want to ask in #python-discussion

[buoyant seal]

Web dev can be awesome if to approach it with good instruments.

A lot of web dev problems just because they use instruments that suck and not auto validate correctness

But I can relate to different people having different interests

[wanton birch]

Anyone know if the "Entry Level" tag on LinkedIn is put by LinkedIn or the recruiter?

[near ocean]

the recruiter I imagine, how would linkedin know?

[wanton birch]

I was wondering if LinkedIn did some auto tagging because majority of them require a good amount of experience and often specialised skills that you'd not even have without having actual years of industry experience. So I assumed the recruiters mean experienced hire but LinkedIn maybe tagged them incorrectly.

[near ocean]

my assumption is entry level is the default level and recruiters just dont give a fuck to change it
dont use linkedin filters for experience

[wanton birch]

This sounds like the most plausible thing. I don't filter on most job sites because these things are faulty. Not to mention that sometimes companies are willing to compromise or consider you for a different role.

[charred flame]

can someone help me >??

[pine sleet]

depends

[peak halo]

with what?

[hearty oracle]

I hear that Python is close to ditching the GIL 😄

gah wrong channel

[modern ore]

@true harness did you get linkedin oa i need linkedin oa 😭

[true harness]

I didn't apply

[hot nebula]

I recently got my first gig as a privately contracted cloud engineer for a big pharma company and will be maintaining their DB, Python scripts, and webforms. What factors should I consider when determining a rate to charge them?

[buoyant seal]

main factor = your previous salary 😄
besides that... years of working experience, learned skills expected to know at your job role, your and their locations could be accounted.

[modern ore]

mf doesnt apply

[hot nebula]

Yeah, didn't have a previous salary.

[buoyant seal]

how is that? even if you worked with monthly or yearly salary amounts, u can always just divide its amount by amount of working hours per this time frame in order to receive your hourly income
do you not have working experience at all?

[hot nebula]

I do, but in an unrelated field.

Also was not making much more than minimum wage

[buoyant seal]

then send us anonymized resume, your educational background, your and client location (just country is enough in general, but often state could be necessary and sometimes town affects it too), your previous working experiences
and expected job vacancy list of duties as precise as possible regarding details

[buoyant seal]

give us data on which ground to estimate possible salary 😄

[fringe sphinx]

US? Full-time 40hours, or part time? Any degree or other credentials?

(this is somewhat my business, although I entered consulting with ~10YOE, but can at least talk through it

And (if US) direct or through a staffing agency? Many large companies won't do 1099's direct, but will push you through a third party.

[hot nebula]

I'm in my second year of college (software engineering), I have 4 years of coding experience (not on the job). The job is hourly and as needed, so it will not be fixed income. I'm in Canada and the client is also in a major city of Canada. I listed the duties in my first post.

[timber bear]

Anyone know ai and ds server in discord
If yes so dm me please

[buoyant seal]

outstaffing agencies 😅 https://media.tenor.com/GjqLIt28NkQAAAAd/vietnam-flashback.gif

[fringe sphinx]

This is the career channel, but if you ahve a question, just ask it in #python-discussion ... don't ask to ask

[fringe sphinx]

Hmm, that puts your in a lower tier. Did the client really just ask you for your rate? I would imagine they have a rate already in mind. This isn't a type of situation where you'd normally throw out a number.

[hot nebula]

They asked

I said I'd get back to them.

[buoyant seal]

major city of Canada? probably city specified is a good idea. I could expect salaries being affected considerably by town in Canada

[fringe sphinx]

Interesting. In the USA, I'd put this in the <$50/hr tier, just to upper bound it: they know you're a student and limited experience. But, hourly should command a slightly higher rate (you always end up spending more time than you bill)

[buoyant seal]

So, essentially system administrator / database expert (sys admin edition - Database administrator?) with exporting reports duties in major city of Canada (lets take Torronto for googling)
Database administrator sounds like in duties

[hot nebula]

Everything is also on AWS

[fringe sphinx]

The best thing to negotiate for is a fixed (or estimated) weekly hours, or establish what the expected weekly workload is up front, a single task can often take a lotta hours, even if you're working as needed.

[hot nebula]

Thats a great idea. Yeah I was thinking around the 40-50 mark.

[fringe sphinx]

I've played games with my billable rate to make me seem cheaper, but my hours * rate work out the same. I always end up working more hours than I bill anyway.

[gilded valley]

@hot nebula my advice is to listen to BillyBobby, and don't pay too much attention to Darkwind.

General negotiating advice is to understand what the market rate for the thing in question is. maybe try going to programmer meet ups and asking if anyone has similar experience?

[hot nebula]

So charge a little less but bill for more hours?

[buoyant seal]

not more than 40$ for sure i think https://ca.indeed.com/jobs?q=Database+administrator&l=toronto%2C+on&radius=50&start=50&pp=gQBLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACD9rzBQA2AQIBESQJDT5nm18jM3mBtR7rTmBSlAXLpq89wCM23MRwdmDbcyWVk-l_KOLEgfjRuWBCZ_eIAAA&vjk=6de7a476dd26f37a
Full time workers in this category receive 43. 🤔

Student/part time busy work would be essentially halving it in productivity at least

[fringe sphinx]

Yah... just a psychology thing. People think about the rate more than the hours. I don't even like bidding on "by the hour", because the math never works out.

(except for lawyers... their billable rate and hours are massive... )

[hot nebula]

Is there a good way to estimate hours needed for a task? I've only really done my own projects.

[fringe sphinx]

Just a snarky: whatever you think it'll take, triple it. 🙂

[buoyant seal]

😅 that's exactly how i do it

[hot nebula]

Nice! I'll do that!

[fringe sphinx]

I mean, I'm still working on a 3 month project I landed 18 months ago. (I'm kinda joking, but both the customer and us all thought we understood the scope)

[hot nebula]

Thanks, everyone, for helping me with all of my job questions!

[ivory sluice]

!tban 152515077512232960 2m your attitude consistently contributes to a hostile environment and you've been given many chances. consistently making slight digs at others is unnecessary and against our code of conduct. take this time to consider whether you find value in the python discord community and if you choose to return, be a consistent positive contributor and uphold our conduct standards instead of diminishing them.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @gilded valley until <t:1699368923:f> (2 months).

[ivory sluice]

!tban 1135518393492066324 2w taking time out of your day to challenge users in a derisive and non-constructive way is not a good use of your time nor is it welcome here. we expect seriously improved behavior, conduct and attitude if you choose to return.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @verbal wave until <t:1695308219:f> (14 days).

[somber pawn]

what do I have to learn if I want to make microprocessors, e.g. design cpus and stuff. I'm talking about the lowest level. Is it coding or more like engineering?

[pine sleet]

Probably more the expertise of an electrical engineer

[digital fjord]

Yeah, most positions I have seen for HDL (hardware description languages, which is what you mostly use for custom silicon (-ish, there is more to it than just HDL)) require electrical engineering, and most classes for HDL are in electrical engineering programs rather than CS. I am in a CS program and we do have two semesters of VHDL, but that is more an exception than the rule, and further electives focus less on CPU design and more on using FPGAs for accelerated computation. Even here the faculty of electrical engineering has the actual specialisations for CPU design. HDL is also very different traditional programming, so existing programming skill is not as useful as it would be with just about any other programming language.

[light summit]

Hey guys. Some advice, please. I developed an application in my free time that my employer wants to buy and/or pay me to develop. How should I price the app in terms of outright sale, or just the rights + my continued development?

[somber pawn]

thank you very much.

[somber pawn]

thank you

[zealous path]

Depends on 1) do you plan to stay on 2) do you wish to upkeep this

Cause you have options

1. outright fee
2. pay royalties
3. salary increase for extra load

[light summit]

I do want to continue to develop this and add it as part of my role. It's a tool - not 'hard' to develop, but not something they've thought of before or have the capcity to develop for themselves in the short term

I think the salary increase and potential title change is appropriate + but how to price it is the question. I had some advice in another server saying 1500$ per hour of development time - what do you think? I'm going to check hourly rates of similar developers on similar development projects

[true harness]

what currency is that number given in?

[zealous path]

Well the £1500 per hour would obviously be for outright purchase.
I would probably aim for a 40-50% increase in salary. It’s still less than hiring an extra employee and is valid considering you provided a new service to the company.
Honestly you could ask for a 100% increase and “bargain” down to a 50%

[fringe sphinx]

fyi, if this is something you're interested in, the first session on this conference video is about the state of the art in the semiconductor/microprocessor world, it's a good watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCZA9B7TAis&list=PL8uoeex94UhEGxPOetT3bpg8ibcxflh44&index=2

[somber pawn]

wow, thank you.

[light summit]

Cool, thanks pog. I appreciate the food for consideration

[zealous path]

Take with a grain of salt. Best to wait for more people to weigh in

[dense mesa]

@somber pawn you need to be looking at electronic engineering, not electrical engineering. Electrical is completely different

[true harness]

maybe computer engineering also

[wanton birch]

@fringe sphinx

[near ocean]

welp, linkedin is a shitshow confirmed

[modern ore]

linkedin full of wanna be influencers now too 😹

[balmy ibex]

are there any prestigious universities/colleges that have software engineering courses that dont require you to have an a level in math . i do computer science for my a levels but i didnt realise you also have to do math or even further math to get into a good university but idk maybe there are a few that dont need math and if there are i would love to know

[smoky quest]

The school wouldn't be good (or prestigious) if the curriculum did not include further math.
You will find it more interesting and rewarding to work your math instead of trying to avoid it.

Note also the math post highschool is a lot more interesting and different since it's more practical and grounded in the domain (engineering, cs, etc.)

[balmy ibex]

okay thanks!!!!!

i guess ill have to study maths myself and pay for an exam but thats fine

[thorny sphinx]

I know that University of Nottingham is a well regarded uni that doesn't require A-Level Math for the CS course. Their entry reqs are A*AA (AAA if you have an A in computer science/computing)

[balmy ibex]

thank you!!!

[near ocean]

not quite?
https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/studywithus/ugstudy/courses/UG/Computer-Science-BSc-Hons-U6UCMPSC.html

i doubt theres any CS program worth the money or time that doesnt require maths

[nocturne iris]

good evening sorry for the inconvenience can someone help me with a pc? I would like to know if an RTX 2070 and an RTX 3050 which is better

[pine sleet]

this is the career discussions channel

[balmy ibex]

thats math in gsce though which is fine as i got a 6 which is equal to b

[nocturne iris]

ah i'm really sorry i just needed some information can you # me the right salon? or if you know answer me

[pine sleet]

you can try asking in #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval or a dedicated PC hardware server

[nocturne iris]

Thx

[lapis wind]

From what I remember when I was looking at unis in the UK most want either computer science or a level maths, obviously basically all of them require a minimum GCSE grade in maths and english, but that's standard

There will definitely be some which require A level maths, Imperial comes to mind, but their computing course is incredibly heavy on the maths and theory, so makes sense.
Unfortunately if you want to get into the 'high end' unis tend to have overall incredibly high requirements and focus more specifically on requiring the core subjects rather.

[near ocean]

Did they revamp CS alevel?

[modern ore]

@true harness did you apply to snowflake or do their oa

I heard they ask DP hards and tree hards, im scared 😭

[modern ore]

How long should I wait b4 following up during the recruitment process 🤔

[cursive estuary]

Is anyone here, interested in making computers at the base level?

I got some great tips for making computers if anyone is interested

[urban wasp]

Helloooo. Does anyone know how to use C++ or recommends a good video to follow through?

[cursive estuary]

Go to a C++ server

[urban wasp]

Ahhh, this a pyhton server?

[cursive estuary]

Yeah, if you want C++ guidance the best thing to do is look somewhere else than the python server.

[urban wasp]

Okie gotcha, Thank you!!

[late pewter]

Will computer science jobs be over saturated and salaries decrease in the next few years?

Still worth pursuing if i graduate in 7 years?

[chrome frost]

if anything CS jobs will be the one would still thrive - CS is not just python. You have networking, databases, system design. These are not going anywhere

[fringe sphinx]

Are you a bot? (This user had posted once a day similar content, genuinely curious at this point)

[fallen igloo]

heyy guys
im a freshman cs student at uni
I know python and c
I wanna get in ai in future but my college courses are fkin theoretical so i am very unsure about what to do
so all advice and help is appreciated

[dense mesa]

"AI" can get very theoretical

[fallen igloo]

i mean like my courses are usually centred around data structures and network organisation and i dont think i have much courses available for ds and ai here ?

[dense mesa]

You don't need courses specifically for those concepts to still get a good understanding. Data structures is still important on a foundational level

[fallen igloo]

ooohhh ohkay
so like do i not need any online resources help for specialization still?

[dense mesa]

Depends on what you're trying to specialise in, but yes you will definitely need to look elsewhere for specific resources

[fallen igloo]

where can i get those specific resources then?

[dense mesa]

Again, it depends on what you're interested in specifically. There's no master resource that will teach you everything, it's a long process of looking at many different resources

[fallen igloo]

Ah ohkay ohkay
can you like suggest any one course thatll help me get started in that direction?

[dense mesa]

For the third time, that depends on what you're looking to do

[smoky quest]

as a freshman, your school will focus first on the foundations. No point in going into advanced areas prior to teaching you DSA for instance.

In terms of resources, you could look at these:

• https://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/
• https://www.amazon.com/Hands-Machine-Learning-Scikit-Learn-TensorFlow-ebook/dp/B0BHCFNY9Q?
  Which cover different aspects

[harsh garnet]

Hey Guys

I'm a tech recruiter and have joined here to share a job post. Is this the correct channel or if not can you navigate me to the right one?

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
We don't do ads here though

[harsh garnet]

Thanks for letting me know!

[celest kite]

!rule ad

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[buoyant seal]

in my country people like that are called "Info gypsies" (along side with all other falsely re-viewable online courses full of missleading promises) 😄

[wanton birch]

I honestly want to projectile vomit at them at times. I wish I could have landed a job so that I could ignore the site for a while. I need a break from the heavy dose of LinkedIn cringe.

[stuck tiger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMd_QuaBXo0

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, this is so true. Think of it this way: college gives you half of what you need. The other half you have to learn yourself: the practical parts of coding. We have lots of suggestions on how to learn this

[gritty rivet]

This is very situational. I try to set clear expectations after each interaction so I know how long to wait.

Don't be annoying or desperate but when in doubt, just follow up with a concise thank you and/or request for update.

[buoyant seal]

try this one, it has far more energy to it

[woven topaz]

Guys I got a doubt

[viral pewter]

Are we allowed to send images here?

[true harness]

yes?

[near ocean]

(but dont unless its relevant)

[viral pewter]

Oh alright, thank you

[wild yoke]

Hi

[vapid jay]

Hello, soon after further python development. I will want an practise interview or feedback by a professional developer with a proven track record. However, how much would this typically cost as I'm only a 19 year old working at mc donalds trying to pay off my university debt?

[late pewter]

Hello World,
Will computer science jobs be over saturated and salaries decrease in the next few years?
Still worth pursuing if i graduate in 7 years?

[pine sleet]

the market will always go up and down

[celest kite]

No.

[harsh river]

hard to say without my divinity ball, or time machine.

[dense mesa]

<@&831776746206265384> it's pretty clear this is either a bot or someone with no intention of stopping the spam, could do something be done please? It's a similar vein to studenta

[regal axle]

they don't have to cost anything. If you are in school, you can perform mock interviews with other students or some schools have mock interviews that they host.
But you can also just find other people who are also learning and do interviews for each other. If you want a "professional" to help you out, you can always ask in a community (like this one) if someone is willing to help. Don't pester anyone. But someone might want to help, no charge. Depends.

Don't worry about the "proven track record" part. It is not really a factor. Who is even to say that the person you get for your big boy interview has "a proven track record?"

[vapid jay]

Oh, I see. Thank you for your message. I wish to send you a paragraph of me sending my appreciation but saying 'Thank you' a thousand times may be boring to you.

[pine sleet]

University career services often provide mock interviews

[true harness]

you can create containers but not run code ?

[delicate bane]

relatable

[true harness]

oh. I thought you were talking about a permissions issue. that sounds fairly reasonable. why not ask what your coworkers are doing + for help?

[marsh wind]

guys I have a question, how much time do you spend approx. in a week to seek a new job?

[dreamy rock]

What is the best career for someone who want to make bank 🏦

[fringe sphinx]

Banking?

[sand patio]

any reason you're repeatedly asking this question (and others as well)? at this point, it's starting to look like spam.

[deft herald]

If i didn't currently have a job, i would make it my full time job to find a job.
If i did currently have a job and i'm looking for a new one, depending on how desperate i was, maybe 5-20hrs a week

[dense mesa]

Big tech, finance or similar

[deft herald]

Get a job in silicon valley but live like you're homeless for a few years. Save up all your money then move to somewhere with a much lower cost of living and work remotely

[delicate bane]

bot perhaps

[delicate bane]

hi if you are not a bot, please say 100

[vapid jay]

Hey community ! I recently graduated in Computer Science and Engineering in India. I have a good grasp of Python basics, including OOP, and I've worked with tools like map(), filter(), Django framework, Git/GitHub, and MySQL. I also have some experience with front-end technologies like HTML and CSS. Now, I'm actively job hunting, but I'm facing challenges. Job descriptions often seem extensive and require experience. I'm unsure about the types of projects to work on and which roles I qualify for, even though I aim to become a Python web developer. I'm not getting many interview opportunities, and some communities offering help ask for payments. I'm seeking guidance on how to secure a job in this field in India. I'm not focused on a high salary initially; I want to learn and gain experience, so the salary is not my top priority right now. Can someone offer advice on this?

[pine sleet]

Apply even if you think you don't qualify, worst that can happen is you don't get the job (which can happen anyway even if you're qualified)

[dreamy rock]

No like bank in terms of money 💵

[deft herald]

I think their answer was actually banking

[dreamy rock]

What fields should I look into in tech like data science or machine learning or developer etc

[wanton birch]

Question:

Do all of you put dates in your resume for experience and education details? Eg:

Engineer at X 2020-2022
Bachelors of Whatever. 2020

I would like to hide mine but not sure if that’d be detrimental

PS my context is Canada for whatever that’s worth

[deft herald]

Yeah dates are good

[vapid jay]

I'm applying from 2 months and get only one interview and that interview went good but experienced preferred so not got selected. But the problem is not getting interviews

[vapid jay]

Like you said for roles qualify or not

[wanton birch]

Why?

[deft herald]

Knowing how long someone has been at a company is good information for the hiring party. For instance, too many jumps in a short period might raise some red flags

[wanton birch]

Oh! That is from the employer’s perspective

[deft herald]

Yes. Why is it that you want to hide the dates?

[wanton birch]

Because of long gap since leaving university

Looking for relevant jobs for over a year now

[deft herald]

That's not too bad

I think you need to have the dates still. Other people can weigh-in though

[craggy prairie]

I feel like them knowing you have been looking for a ~year, just shows that you are persistent. Its not necessarily bad. I would say keep the dates 🤷‍♂️

[true harness]

persistently not getting a job? a year isn't too extreme considering recent happenings, though I think

[wanton birch]

Its around 1.5 years now

Makes me feel super embarrassed too.