career-advice

[buoyant seal]

as of current level? no.
unless your level is around zero, at which level u have problem of having a milliard of people available remotely from cheap countries, that provide zero quality efforts very dirty cheap already.
So... human competion is more challenge at any level in my opinion 😄

[sleek egret]

you could major in music or theology and get a job as a programmer when you get out of university. I know people who did just that.

you just need the at least the basic relevant coursework and programming skills

[naive slate]

theology is web scale

[near ocean]

Its all in the cloud

[sleek egret]

lol 2 both your replies

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to think about your ideal top 3 roles and then how they map to cs vs ce.
There is a lot more to the world than writing frontend and backend

[quartz pasture]

If I take a coding boot camp will I still have opportunities to work for company’s has anyone here done that route?

[vapid jay]

Listen man I’m 13 I have barely knowledge ab python and programing but. Ima say yes (I didint read most of the msg I have no idea what I’m saying btw)

[quartz pasture]

Nice.

[true harness]

it is possible, but difficult compared to the traditional method of entering the SWE field, i.e., a degree

[quartz pasture]

Thanks

[smoky quest]

A CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation.

Note also that bootcamps focus on the lower skill, easier entry point such as webdev. So that will narrow down some of your opportunities

[quartz pasture]

A CS degree would be 4yrs of school right?

[smoky quest]

something like that

[near ocean]

You wont have the same opportunities no, some places want a degree, some industries require degrees

You'll have some opportunities, yes

[quartz pasture]

However if your skill and knowledge is on point your still able to get paid 60k+ a year

[true harness]

what country are we basing this salary on

[quartz pasture]

USA

[smoky quest]

Or you could be paid multiples of that with a degree and have a very comfortable life

[quartz pasture]

R there any routes to obtaining a degree without paying a crap ton for college that’s my main issue

[smoky quest]

• community colleges, grants, etc.
• student loan. given the income you would get in the field, it's seen more as an investment than a cost

[true harness]

state schools are very cheap, community colleges are even cheaper. there are also scholarships and loans

[gritty rivet]

People do it in half the time or even less with WGU. I don't think that degree has the same value but it's an option if you really feel a need to rush it

[gritty rivet]

The overwhelming majority of bootcamp grads who pull that off (myself included) are career changers with 4 year degrees and multiple years of professional experience in other fields

[quartz pasture]

Got it Ty

[gritty rivet]

The WGUI I mentioned is also very cheap if you can get through it fast enough. But the other options people mentioned (community college/state school) are better

[quartz pasture]

Would you be able to get your full ce degree at community college

I’ve seen community college only goes up to associates is that enough to land a good job

[smoky quest]

a bs is the minimum.
I also want to caution against optimizing for the wrong thing. There is an idiom about it: penny wise, pound foolish.

Optimize for your 40 years career, not for saving pennies for your degree.
Cheaping out on your degree also means a lower quality of education and thus skills and knowledge

[gritty rivet]

No, but you can get about halfway there at a very low cost and then transfer. It's a pretty good option if doing 4 years at a university is out of reach

[harsh river]

lots of community colleges also offer the full degree as wel

[gritty rivet]

That's new to me, maybe depends on the state. I've only seen 2 years degrees at community colleges

Ah, CUNY in NYC has one, that's cool

[harsh river]

yeah it's very dependent on the CC itself, mine offers full degrees and for some of them better education that some private colleges around the area

[harsh river]

yeah, new york state has lots of CC that offer full degrees, like SUNY

[regal axle]

I seem to be at a fork in my life

I want to do cool things with code. The me of right now thinks that means doing research in AI. I say it that way becuase I don't know if I will end up hatting research (I know it isn't for everyone). I like to learn and I like to explore and create new things.
Point being, College is expensive. I have a BS in CS and the next step would be to get a MS or PhD. I want a PhD but I don't qualify to apply for a PhD out right (skipping the masters). I am still going to apply to both. And then from there get a research job.

Or at least that was the plan. The issue is that I have been working on projects to make money so I don't have to go into debt. Well those projects have snowballed into much bigger things. They are consuming my time and I don't have time to apply for Grad School. I still want to do discovery type work with AI (yes, I know that is vague but I am keeping it that way on purpose here). But that means I would have to stop working so hard on the other stuff.
A) meaning I might have to go into larger amounts of debt and
B) I am closing the doors that these current opportunities open

The question is really just, what should I do? Should I just focus on the degree or ignore that for now and then come back to it at a later date? I don't know how realistic it is for a company to sponsor me to get a PhD and the types of jobs I want all seem to need PhD or masters (PhD preferred) and I also do want to get one. But yea ...

[harsh river]

have you looked into MS + PHD programs? they? they give you an MS on a shorter timeframe and as soon as you qualified they bring you into the PHD program

[regal axle]

Right, I know that those exist. But the underlying issue still exists. I am going to have to apply to a lot of different places. But I don't have any publications and the schools I would like to go to all require it (even if they don't say it; I have been told by many reliable sources that it is required). At least they require it for PhD. Still going to just apply and hope it happens.
But another option (the backup) is go MS and then either finish it and go to PhD or try to transfer from MS to PhD. I have been told that it isn't unreasonable to do it that way

[vapid jay]

Yes sounds steep but I agree (I have no idea what I’m saying)

[gritty rivet]

If taking a year or two to focus on making money will give you more financial freedom to pursue academics, the slight delay in your career could be worth it. So do whatever feels right and I'm sure it will work out either way

[smoky quest]

You can always scale back your projects.
You could also hire someone to take care of these projects to free up your time.

But you may have to figure out what you would prefer or prioritize.

Note that phds are more intended for research than industry.

[regal axle]

Yes. I want to do research and not industry. But life is pulling me in the direction of industry work. I can either go with the current flow and just do that or I can fight it and get my PhD.

Also, I was asking here to help me figure out what to prioritize. I wanted to know how realistic it is to do at least adjacent work without a PhD and then get it afterwards. Ideally sponsored by a company but if not that is fine too.

[smoky quest]

I would optimize for what you want to do now. Putting back to later will rarely result in you getting there.
People will get busy building a family, or their career will become important and then at some point you will be removed far enough from it that it will be difficult to compete with the next generation of students who want to get in directly. That said, it is possible, but with lower probability.

I would suggest to ask questions about research to phd students and your professors. It's not all rosy (race to papers, politics, grants, lower compensation, etc.), so it's worth doing some research about it

Note also that an option is to also sell your current business completely for a fat check. That's extreme, but can be an option

[fringe sphinx]

In the US: Community college is a great option. Freshman and sophomore year curriculum is nearly identical to the bigger schools, and in most states, here’s pathways to the state universities.

[regal axle]

oh yea. I have experienced a lot of the bureaucracy. I have gotten stung by it before. But I still want to do it.
My biggest thing is really just ... how do I get in. I guess it is also part imposter syndrome. I have a ton of qualifications ... for industry. But not academy. And I feel like I am only going to be passed up because of a missing check box vs my actual abilities

[fringe sphinx]

I started in my PhD and abandoned it abd. Life and business got in the way. I somewhat wish I finished (life goal) but don’t think it’s made a diff. Occasional it’d be a nice credential on my resume but largely unneeded

[regal axle]

Ideally, one of the projects should have been handled by another company. But they were trying to take advantage of me and my partner so we ditched them. And now we are stuck with making the thing make us money. Or we do the hard thing and just kill it

[smoky quest]

yep. You have to play the game of networking with well known researchers, getting your name in influential papers, getting into a reputed school, etc.

but to get your phd, you only need to get into a phd program

[regal axle]

¿?
But to get in I would have to also do all of the above stuff. It isn't as easy as "get into a phd program"
And also, a lot of schools don't seem to be doing ML not at least "modern" types of ML. For the most part (as far as the US goes and to my knowledge) the really competitive schools offer it but not a lot of the less competitive ones

[elder forge]

If you get into a PhD program make sure you talk to the other PhD students who have the same supervisor before you accept. All universities have good and bad supervisor, and they can make or break both your career and mental health.

[smoky quest]

depends a lot on your school, state, country, are you from the same school, etc.

you also already know that ML has been hyped up pretty hard and is quite competitive. So competition to get in is to be expected

[regal axle]

Yea ... that is why it becomes a challange. I can end up spending a lot of time to my make my application as solid as possible but all of that time gets wasted because I don't get in to any school. And by doing that, I ended up neglecting my other work and letting those opportunites slip me by. I am not looking for an answer per say. I am more so just trying to talk it through and see if someone says something that makes me be able to think about it in a different way

[smoky quest]

There is nothing to loose to try and you won't get in without trying.
If you have some gaps, then work on them and do your best. This way you won't have any regret.

You may want to look into the "regret minimization framework"

And do not hesitate to explore and go wide. You may discover something adjacent or even unrelated to ML that you would end up building a research career in

[regal axle]

I have yet to take my GRE. How likely am I to be able to get to apply this semester (to get in for 2024 fall/spring)? For PhD I don't need it but for Masters you do. Generally speaking at least.

[smoky quest]

I can't speak for specific timelines. I take people once they exit school, not when they get in :p

[regal axle]

lol fair

[deft herald]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[deft herald]

What is this contest?

[harsh river]

python arrays are commonly lists, unless they're numpy arrays or array.array

What competition are you talking about? Go to #python-discussion

[gray lava]

Guys, what can you recommend to land in becoming software engineer? Should I take Computer Engineering or Computer Science course?

[harsh river]

Where are you planning to take the course?

[dry girder]

Computer science. Because software engineering is purely coding and in computer science you will learn all the software stuff but in computer engineering you have to intereact with the hardware as well 😁

[naive slate]

I don't know what uni you went to but ce for me was almost all math.
I don't know coroutines, barely know multithreading, but boi do I know what a commutative ring is, the properties of a monoid, and how to define the Lebesgue integral

[dry girder]

I am talking about in general

[naive slate]

even in general it's a whole lotta math

[dry girder]

I think when it comes to any degree which is related to programming always have maths

[naive slate]

it's likely more math than code, oftentimes

[dry girder]

Oh i get it so then which degree you recommend if he wants to do software engineering?

[naive slate]

I was just saying your description of ce, for my personal experience at least, is rather wrong.
Don't know where you got it from to be frank

[harsh river]

computer science tends to be more theretical than applied which is why lots of math is involved, but for SWEN its actually applied so less math

[naive slate]

see what topics are covered by the cs and ce courses at your poerntial uni, as it can vary a lot from uni to uni (this one does electronics, this one doesn't, this one has more courses on parallel computing, this one less, ...).

And see what topics are you most interested in from a job/personal perspective, though keep in mind most of these will only serve as groundwork for job skills, as a lot of uni courses have old-ish approaches at times

[dry girder]

No my concept is not wrong. You can also look up into the google as well. I am saying that CE involves lots of hardware stuff also you have to deal with maths if you're doing anything related to programming

[naive slate]

that is one of the worst sentencs I have ever read

[dry girder]

No worries

[gray lava]

Brigham Young University Idaho

Idk who to believe but I guess I have to go in Computer Science then

[harsh river]

can you, in simple words explain what you want to do?

once you have thought that out , look at these 4 degrees and choose the one that fits you the best
software development
software engineering
computer science
computer engineering

[harsh river]

it's hard to tell you because each university / college has the same names for degrees but teach different things, so just look the the degree descriptions for your specific college (Brigham Young University Idaho
in your case), so just look at what your college says it actually teaches for the degrees, all those degrees have in the page what course they have you take

[pastel thunder]

i want to add experience of my new job in resume.
I am currently in training phase and have learned
multithreading, maven, sprindboot, java, mongodb
what to add to resume?

[prime nymph]

It's a CV. It's not a resume. The document is titled with "CV of ...". I'm curious about the reason why you are having a difficulty with determining what it is. Please share the reason.

CVs don't have length limit and are supposed to list all achievements and information.

While a resume has a length limit and are supposed to be tailored and relevant to the job and the company. In a resume, irrelevant information shouldn't be added.

[proven crest]

CV and Resume and interchangeable. Brits say CV where Americans say resume, it generally means the same thing. If you really mean CV, then they’re mainly used for applying for academic positions such as PhD or research programs. Judging by your “cv” you don’t have the focus, skills or qualifications for this so I assume it’s for job searching, in which case it should be one page and focused.

But it’s totally up to you if you want to follow advise or not, if you think keeping that length and broadness is right.. well I wish you the best of luck

[smoky quest]

In the industry, CV and resume are interchangeable depending on if you come from the US or the EU.

[smoky quest]

As of your CV itself:

• Show, don't tell. Having a long list of skills is not as powerful as having actual experience or projects that do demonstrate these skills
• Too much filler. As a reviewer, I would just skip it. As a rule of thumb, remember that a cv/resume ought to be reviewed under 30-45s
• Using phrasing like "powerful courses" and "lots of projects" is meaningless. Any job ad will get thousands of applications from people claiming to be awesome. So that goes back to the first point of: show, don't tell

[true harness]

basically, you say you've done lots of projects. where are the projects? describe them in detail. same with your experience.

have you made any changes since before?

[sacred epoch]

if i am 13, am i in the right place here?

[true harness]

if you're looking to discuss Python and the world of work

[snow thorn]

🐤

[gritty rivet]

In the US, a CV and a resume are NOT the same. But I guess in other countries a CV is more like a resume. https://novoresume.com/career-blog/cv-vs-resume-what-is-the-difference

[worldly ridge]

Question: For MlOps is it better to be a devops first and then transition or a ml engineer first?

[gritty rivet]

Titles are near-meaningless so I would say it depends on the specific roles... Especially DevOps because that can be almost anything

[sleek egret]

yar

[sleek egret]

there is no relationship between ML and devops

other than both use computers and involve some programming

[gilded valley]

MLE and devops are definitely related. Devops is about building, testing, and deploying code on resilient infrastructure (or arguably building tools which let developers do that). MLE is about the infrastructure required to build (train), test, and deploy ML models

[sleek egret]

who builds the ML models then?

[gilded valley]

data scientists and/or ml researchers

[sleek egret]

also, what you describe as an MLE sounds like devops to me. just sayin'

[gilded valley]

I mean the two jobs are very similar - they just end up focusing on different technologies because there's a ton of specific technology built around ML models.

A lot of mediocre devops jobs are basically just being the Jenkins monkey - the mediocre MLE job is instead being the AWS Sagemaker monkey

[sleek egret]

heh 🐒

[spiral sparrow]

Any software engineer in here who does not have a college degree as been told you do not need a college degree to be a software engineer

[peak halo]

are you suggesting they do a math minor? also "computer engineering" is a hardware degree in some places, and a software degree in others.

[gilded valley]

Consensus in this channel is that you pretty much need a degree, or at least it's the easierst path. What country are you in? Who told you that?

[fringe sphinx]

Just repeating what I said in pygen: oh nm latte beat me to it: ☕

[spiral sparrow]

Was study abroad in the US and been told by friends who themselves major in math do software engineer

[peak halo]

I don't think doing a math minor really has any added value.

[fringe sphinx]

Double major iif you want to be a SWE but will pursue a math graduate degree

[gray lava]

Based on my research that Computer Science are the path of becoming a software engineer but my friend's uncle who is a software engineer itself told me to go in Computer Engineer so like rn idk who to believe holy fak

[spiral sparrow]

Make sense

[fringe sphinx]

Good thing I have a computer science degree.

[gilded valley]

I would suggest no one take advice from someone who has explicitly talked about wanting to trick people into making bad life choices

[peak halo]

in the US, "computer engineering" is where you design the actual hardware. but in some countries, it means "designing software". so you need to figure out which one they're talking about.

[gray lava]

Yeah also becoming and knowing hardware stuff doesn't add a value on becoming a software engineer

[lapis wind]

Pretty sure it's also a Pyramid scheme

[peak halo]

right, I would not do a hardware-related degree if you want to design software.

[spiral sparrow]

So no need for college degree then

[fringe sphinx]

‘It’s a ponzi not a pyramid!’ /s

[fringe sphinx]

Huh? Who said that

[gray lava]

Mmmmm so becoming a Software Engineer is hard to tell and has 2 designated area ?? Either design a hardware or software????

[gilded valley]

@peak halo really glad to see that this doesn't break the code of conduct

[peak halo]

if you're a young person without professional experience, you pretty much need a degree.

[gilded valley]

this is hte kind of person who you're happy giving advice in this channel

[spiral sparrow]

Some college friend from my study abroad told me since they major in math

[gray lava]

Ohhhhhhh

[fringe sphinx]

Said what?

[gray lava]

So it's more reliable to take Computer Engineering then?

[spiral sparrow]

I college degree in software engineering is worthless

[fringe sphinx]

I am a hiring manager of software engineers. I only interview entry candidates with college degrees.

[peak halo]

"software engineering" always refers to desinging software/programming. whereas "computer engineer" either means the same thing as "software engineer", or it means "designing hardware". so if someone says "computer engineer", you have to figure out which one they mean.

[fringe sphinx]

Usually CS degrees.

[spiral sparrow]

Make sense as what is your expectations besides degree then like years of experience

[fringe sphinx]

There are lots of hiring managers and interviewers in this channel, I'm not the only one.

[spiral sparrow]

Okay as thanks for telling me

[true harness]

Do CS + Math instead 🙂
@modern ore can you qualify this advice? e.g., "i recommend doing CS and math, because my experience with x"

[fringe sphinx]

But, we all say the same thing: 1. Get a degree, 2. Level up your programming skills with projects, 3. Dont worry about specializing too early

[true harness]

Do CS + Math instead 🙂
@modern ore can you qualify this advice? e.g., "i recommend doing CS and math, because my experience with x"

[peak halo]

you say what experiences you have had that make you have that opinion.

[gray lava]

Ah okay sorry for my grammar,

So I have this friend of mine that he's uncle is a software engineer. Then my friend and I wanted to become like he's uncle a software engineer, so he's uncle told us that we should get software engineer but based on my research that todays generation is very competitive to get in software engineer especially to those people has degree in software engineer and there is need to fill that is lacking in programming and coding that doesn't teach in computer engineer. So I'm confused to choose asf and want to know what you guys think since we are in the same boat of this industry

[fringe sphinx]

CS is the standard degree. There are many variants/specialized CS degrees, like software engineering (more applied stuff), machine learning (combines with math), gaming (more game related projects), and CE (hybrid of CS and CE). The specialties aren't all that important because you still get a good SWE foundation from any.

[peak halo]

@modern ore why do you think doing a math minor or double major has added value? because at my university, the academic advisor for CS said that getting a math minor doesn't really help you stand out among other CS degree holders, and that if you're going to take extra courses, it should be for something like cyber security or data science.

[gray lava]

Ohhhh okay, I'll choose Computer Science theb

[fringe sphinx]

The important thing is: practice programming. There's a huge difference between CS graduates who coded/practiced for 4 years, and those who just took their courses.

[gray lava]

HOLY FUCK SORRY I MEAN COMPUTER ENGINEER********

[peak halo]

in what country are you looking for work? because demand will be different in different places.

if "computer engineer" means "someone who designs hardware", and you don't want to design hardware, then don't do that.

and if "computer engineer" means the same thing as "software engineer", but it's still hard to find work as a software engineer, then having a degree in "computer engineering" probably won't make it easier.

[true harness]

i got similar advice. when i asked the academic advisors about a double major, the first thing they said was to get it in something not closely related, since the overlap between CS and math was very high

[fringe sphinx]

It is true that this year it's been hard to land an entry job. (my opinion) This was due to macroeconomic stuff, not because of some change in demand: big tech feared a recession and started cutting costs (firing people) which caused companies to panic. I'd expect things to return to normal in the next year or two, and certainly by the time you graduate.

[gray lava]

Yeah that's also what I think too, so I'm flexible on both hardware and software

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, my opinion is a dbl major only makes sense when one is applied, and the second is your passion (you'll seek a graduate degree). Like, cs + math, + a math masters/phd track would make sense to me.

[gray lava]

I'm starting to question myself if I made the right decision on preparing myself to be one😭

[gilded valley]

instead people should listen to vindictive idiots on discord?

[near ocean]

What are academic advisors? Have they worked in the industry?

[true harness]

you haven't given any indication why someone should follow your advice either. you can do that by saying something along the lines of "i have x years of experience in hiring software engineers"

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, to be fair, ability to demonstrate what you've learned is the real issue. Lots of people take courses or minors or whatever, but can't demonstrate or utilize those skills... so I don't put a weight on coursework unless it's backed by something interesting (project) or they can really engage on a conversation about it.

[gray lava]

Care to explain? 😭😭😭😭

[fringe sphinx]

That's fair. If you want a lifetime of learning and challenges, software is a good space. It's an exciting time to be a SWE, and there's plenty of room at the top. If you're lazy and just want the big bucks without working hard, perhaps it's the wrong field 🙂

[peak halo]

what do you mean that you're just saying shit? are you trying to waste peoples time?

[true harness]

most of the advice i give is just parroted from other people; many people recommend this resume

[near ocean]

Jake's template is not psv's creation, its very popular, you dont have to trust psv to see that

[graceful mason]

This year my team has had a physics grad who learnt programming in his own time and he's done better than experienced engineers that have been hired

[fringe sphinx]

"ability to demonstrate": Lots of people take courses or get degrees, but have only a shallow understanding of it. This is why I said: "practice". There's a vast difference between someone who practiced programming (or problem solving or math or whatever) for 4 years, and someone who just passed their classes.

[gilded valley]

That wasn't even PSVM giving advice, it was him giving a link taht someone else had asked for

[fringe sphinx]

For example, I just interviewed someone who had Pandas prominently on their resume, but couldn't answer a single question about it.

[peak halo]

!mute 877499029691461683 "1 hour" Don't say "you'll get farther if you listen to lil ol me" and then "I am just sayin sht". Bad career advice can be very damaging, and if you can't justify the advice that you are giving, please don't give it.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied timeout to @modern ore until <t:1692545765:f> (1 hour).

[near ocean]

Oh i just realised who it is

[gray lava]

From 1 to 10

Does learning and overcoming new bugs gives burn out and unbearable stress in this field?😭.

I only want to be one because I can work from home HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[fringe sphinx]

Or someone who had SQL, but couldn't answer a modelling question. Or, didn't understand how variables worked

[true harness]

overcoming the bugs is the fun part

[fringe sphinx]

I work long hours. I love my work. Your mileage may vary.

[gray lava]

Ohhhhhh interesting 🤩🤩

[fringe sphinx]

oooh.

[late pewter]

how do i develop a passion for coding

[peak halo]

what does it mean to be "passionate" about coding, and why do you need that?

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno. I've always had a passion for certain types of problems. And others (web dev, I'm looking at you) I don't.

[gray lava]

OKAY I THINK I'M SO FREAKING SATISFIED RN THANK YOU SIR BILLY BOBBY AND SIR STRIFF!!!

I'll choose Computer Science and Minor of Cyber security and Hardware stuff

[fringe sphinx]

Perhaps its more about figuring out what types of problems you are passionate about. Which problems you enjoy working on.

[vernal dagger]

Hi, I have a question, do you reread codes and functions a lot to remember them? Because I easily forget commands

[fringe sphinx]

It's why I have multiple monitors: one screen is always the doc for whatever API I'm using.

[vernal dagger]

oh, understood

[fringe sphinx]

The thing you should remember is: "Oh, there's a way to do this using XYZ library", and then go lookup the syntax. If you want to be really good, don't use GPT or SO to give you the example, go pull up the library doc, you'll learn more.

Like, I constantly forget Pandas (a popular Python library for data manipulation) syntax, but I know the various things Pandas can do and can find it quickly.

[vernal dagger]

so I should have recourses to peep fastly, right?

[gilded valley]

another option with a lot of simpler python libraries is: you can just use jump-to-definition in your editor to see the source code of whatever API you're using

[vernal dagger]

hm, could you show me how to do it in VS code if you use it please?

[undone lantern]

hi public stayic void

[fringe sphinx]

I do miss Java-land. Javadocs was such a better ecosystem. (someones going to flame me for this, and yes I'm familiar with sphinx)

[gilded valley]

f12

[vernal dagger]

oh there appeared a lot of commands

[gilded valley]

IMO the problem with python is that it goes half-way with having a standard. If the PSF just said fuck it, here's one standard for docstrings and a tool to generate docs from code in the standard library

[sleek egret]

python has adopted the perl philosophy that there shoudl be lots of half-assed ways to do each thing

well, perl had one way to do docs, but that was an exception

[true harness]

but...there should only be one obvious way to do things 😦

[sleek egret]

that was the OLD python way. welcome to the NEW python way. it's most evident in things like package management and docstrings

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, sounds like an opportunity for yet another PEP to do it a new one that's better second system effect

[gilded valley]

didn't you know? the Zen of python is satire

[sleek egret]

so wait until python 4? because third time's the charm?

[fringe sphinx]

I just need to write the epic doc solution for python, 2. ??, 3. $$.

[sleek egret]

har

what about pydoc?

[gritty rivet]

By building cool stuff. What do you want to build?

[zinc parrot]

anyone uses programming skills to keep the expenses while at college

[fallen zenith]

anyone knows if apple does l1 visas?

[fringe sphinx]

l1 is a pretty specialized situation, no? I'm pretty sure you can look this stuff up

[fallen zenith]

i tried to look it up, information on this is surprisingly sparse

[fringe sphinx]

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/2-L1Report_Excel.pdf

I found that via wikipedia, which says: "According to USCIS data, the largest employers to receive L-1 visas in 2019 were Tata Consultancy with 1,542 approved L-1 visa petitions, Infosys with 517, Amazon with 455, Cognizant with 382, and Deloitte with 305.[10] Between 2015 and 2019, Tata Consultancy received the greatest number of L-1 visas with 8,206 L-1 visas, followed by Cognizant with 4,774 L-1 visas.[11][12][13][14]"... and followed the citation [10]

No, I'm an engineering manager, not HR. I hire people.

[buoyant seal]

my department leader specifies there is a difference between recruiters and HRs.
But i discovered recruiters themselves think they are HRs 😄
Supposedly HR is a person onboarding/supervising people working in a company, not recruiting

[fringe sphinx]

Well, yah, I do filter the resumes to decide who to interview. Because I'm in small tech, I often schedule the interviews myself.

[buoyant seal]

Also... despite working as software engineer, i just have as side hustle visiting tech interviews to process candidates.
it is purely volunteering tasks for any fitting devs at our company

[fringe sphinx]

In big tech, the recruiter posts the jobs and receives the resumes, and works with hiring manager to decide who to interview. Once a decision is made to interview, either the recruiter or HR handles the scheduling. Sometimes it's HR who is closer to the hiring team.

Yes, I've worked in big tech.

It also depends on the roles (and of course, the company). Some companies work with third party recruiters, but this adds cost, so it's not common to see for entry level positions.

In mid-sized places, HR will double as the recruiter, etc.

I'm just quoting what someone else said here: #python-discussion message

Projects & Experience & Interest. I'm looking for: can you program? Have you programmed? Do you have anything complex that you've done outside of coursework

See #career-advice message

[late flame]

They skim for longer if your resume looks good. That means put your best stuff up top, probably education and most recent work.

[true harness]

is that something you've actually seen? it seems incredibly risky

[late flame]

They probably do. Just make yours more detailed. You didn't just work on a project, you made feature X which led to outcome Y.

[true harness]

interesting. i suspect there might be a lot more that try and get rejected, though, just they don't brag about the places they got rejected from

[sleek egret]

what's an L-1 visa?

[fringe sphinx]

very specialized short term visa

[sleek egret]

ah, intra-company transfer

[fringe sphinx]

like, if I want to bring an executive in from india for a 3-6 month project to help me build a factory

[sleek egret]

over the years, I've caught lots of people who obviously lied on their resumes

[fringe sphinx]

Not sure what you mean / what you're asking.

[sleek egret]

titles are meaningless between companies in the USA

[fringe sphinx]

But, if the question is about whether data analysis and data visualization is a good skill to demonstrate: then Yes.

[sleek egret]

I tell people what to do then take a nap

[fringe sphinx]

There just isn't enough appreciate of nap time in corporate culture. The spanish have it right.

[sleek egret]

I'm old, I've earned it

[sleek egret]

I agree 200%!

[fallen zenith]

yyyeah i think i'll just have to try my chances with an h1b lol

[wet trench]

do i have a future in game development (3d online games, think posibly fortnite) if i move forward with python?

[fallen zenith]

thanks yall

[true harness]

sure

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, I didn't realize that was the question. An L-1 isn't the normal path... H1-B is far more normal (or F1-OPT for students)

[wet trench]

yay

[fringe sphinx]

(ianail)

[true harness]

professional game development often doesn't use python, but it's an alright language to start with

[sleek egret]

be aware that most hard core games are written in C++

and that you need a pretty good foundation in math (linear algebra) as well as data structures and algos and how the hardware + os works

and finally, unless you're super hot-shit, game dev doesn't pay very well

[fallen zenith]

just python? not really. but if you're good with python oop it's not super hard to switch to a fully oop languafe

[wet trench]

hmm, thank you all for your input

isn't there a c++ and python hybrid?

[fringe sphinx]

The first step is to get to an intermediate skill level with any language. Python is as good as any. All of the professionals here know more than 1 language.

[sleek egret]

any software developer worth their salt will know and use multiple languages. programming languages are just tools.

I agree with @fringe sphinx

[wet trench]

so try and understand python, for example, really well then move on and try to learn another launguage?

[sleek egret]

sure. or learn two at the same time. it doesn't matter, take the route that best matches how you think.

[fringe sphinx]

I think a lot of people are worried too much about the destination (game dev, AI, ML, bots, etc), rather than the journey. The next step is to learn a language, and get to a good level of skill by challenging yourself. Once you get 'good', then re-evaluate your next step.

[wet trench]

i tried learning cs but it was very hard for me since im used to python level coding, so ill go back to try and learn that later

[sleek egret]

again, @fringe sphinx speaks wisdom. a good developer can easily adapt himself to different industries quite rapidly

[wet trench]

hm

[sleek egret]

various programming languages are simply a means of concretely expressing concepts. the better you know the underlying theoretical concepts, the easier it becomes to pick up new languages, frameworks, libraries, tools, etc.

hell, I've helped people debug code in languages I've never seen before.

[wet trench]

thank you for the information

[sleek egret]

learn javascript too

[wet trench]

if i have to

[sleek egret]

and Go and Rust and C# and SQL and LISP/Scheme and more

I'd also suggest learning a modern functional language like Haskal or Clojure

[true harness]

f#

[wet trench]

haskal?

[sleek egret]

sorry, haskell, and a few assembly varients as well, of course, if you want to get into game dev

[wet trench]

ok

[sleek egret]

and while learning those things, learn the necessary math and graphics concepts. learn 3D libraries and how they work under the hood. since you want to work in online games, learn about networking and distributed systems.

lots and lots to read and do! so exciting!

[wet trench]

lol

[sleek egret]

if you don't know the math and work in gaming, you will be stuck working on helping debug levels or some such. i.e. the grunt work. and won't ever get paid well.

the hot shit people are those that can analyze the peculiar needs for the game their working on and tweak the code to work better with the CPU/GPU. to do that requires that you actually understand the math.

[gilded valley]

fsharp is kind of dead. there's really not much activity in the language ecosystem, so you're just calling out to csharp* for a ton of stuff

[sleek egret]

for example, I recall reading that one of Carmack's proudest moments was when he wrote a highly optimized square root approximation function

that function essentially allowed Doom to work on current hardware

There's a great series of books called "Graphics Gems" which highlights a bunch of cool tricks people developed for graphics programming. some are, IMO, brilliant.

[fringe sphinx]

I really want some excuse to use Julia

[pallid dome]

hi guys

[sleek egret]

Julia is awesome. I rewrote a monte-carlo risk analysis sim I did in python + numpy in julia and it was 1) 5x faster and 2) the code was much cleaner/simpler

[pallid dome]

which it job that ai cant replace !!

[sleek egret]

essentially, if you're worried that you will be replaced by AI, you probably will be. so level up to work that is too creative/challenging for AI

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, then I def need to look into it, thats interesting. I'm gotten soured by the slow-by-default life of py.

[sleek egret]

you can even have julia spit out the assembly it finally compiles into so you can fine tune your code

[fringe sphinx]

I'm doing some arima / forecasting work and it's just god-awful here.

[sleek egret]

the only issue with julia in my line of work is that it's lacking in financial libraries. I definitely don't wanna write my own bond calendar libs

[vapid jay]

guys i like AI, chatbots development, and at the top trading (idk it's possible with python or not), backend development
what lib you guys suggest me to learn for good career?

and it can be possible to make money with it without education or being +18

[sleek egret]

general rule of thumb: anything is possible with any language

[sleek egret]

you learn whatever libs you need when you need them

[vapid jay]

i want to get orders in fiverr
something that's new and have a good career

[sleek egret]

no offense but fiverr gigs is sort of the opposite of a "good career"

[dusk violet]

ehh it can be used to showcase work to propective employers

[sleek egret]

sure, I guess you could use it as a launch pad.

[dusk violet]

I wouldnt say its a good career but good to build work and projects, somethings just dont come about in self labs

[fringe sphinx]

(revising my earlier post): Many people are too focused on the destination (game dev, AI, ML, bots, etc), or the shortcut (fiverr, freelancing, making big bucks), rather than the journey and investing their time in the first step: how to become a good programmer.

[dusk violet]

I agree Billy

[gilded valley]

the thing with Julia is that python is clearly eating its lunch. between Jax and Numba and high quality rust extensions to python, Julia doesn't really have a future.

maybe it could be another matlab or R, but it's probably never taking the top spot for scientific computing

[vapid jay]

no one want a discord bot nowadays

[fringe sphinx]

Hmm, tx for that perspective... that's kinda my problem, everytime I think: "I'll use julia for that", I find a python solution

[dusk violet]

We have been implementing alot of Teams chat AI things

[sleek egret]

I agree to some extent but julia has a really different style (which some people love) and its type system is actually sane and theoretically solid

[vapid jay]

i like to learn ML
but i dont know where to start

[gilded valley]

it's fun, but not a great choice for building real software with

[vapid jay]

ML?

[sleek egret]

the biggest problem with julia is the lack of talent that knows it well

[gilded valley]

Julia

[fringe sphinx]

Do you know Python? Are you a good programmer? If not, do that first. Then worry about ML.

[vapid jay]

can i learn backend development without learning js or frontend?

[vapid jay]

yes i know python and im a good programmer (not in finding a good library to start)

[gilded valley]

but that's the thing - there's no reason for the talent to pick it up at this point. python can do everything it can do 80% as well, but there's 100x more python devs.

we used it for one project at my last work, and it just added this unnecessary hurdle

[fringe sphinx]

If you're there, maybe check out CS50 for AI

[sleek egret]

I strongly suggest that you try to stop thinking in terms of "front end" and "back end". those terms are mostly used by people who work on websites. while that's a substantial fraction of the industry, it discourages you from seeing how broad the software development actually is

[sleek egret]

yeah, I know. our firm uses python for almost everything even though I really like julia. gotta be practical after all. c'est la vie.

[buoyant seal]

Sure. but i warn you, that from Middle level of backend developer, basic html/css/js/frontend knowledge is expected. like nothing fancy, but just to be able to do admin pages 😅
Basic is basic though, so very easy.
book like Head First HTML/CSS and Head First Javascript teaches everything backend dev needs to know about front. Preferably nice to get hang of some front framework though (like Vue.js/Svelte)
Pretty optional knowledge, but very nice to know

[sleek egret]

"front end" is just UI. "back end" is everything else -- from numerical processing to database analytics, from embedded systems to bioinformatics, from web API's to video processing, from 3D games to natural language processing, from flight control systems to OS development.

[buoyant seal]

class Frontend:
  def __init__(self, default_type_=Web):
    pass

😛

[sleek egret]

lol

[near ocean]

Haha you'd think so but theres plenty of badly designed backends that dont see it as a priority to fix their shit and dump computation onto UI people

[fringe sphinx]

Oh that reminds me I need to go see if pyodide / wasm has gotten better

[vapid jay]

i know html css well
but js is hard for me idk why

[buoyant seal]

all this time i thought, no serious production will return errors in 200 responses of backend with non json answers.
oh boy. i was wrong.

[buoyant seal]

Head First Jaascript is extremely friendly and very good explaining stuff

[sleek egret]

heh, many web REST API designers could really do with an intro class on API design

[vapid jay]

you guys suggest fastapi or flask for web3?

[buoyant seal]

what is web3

[sleek egret]

web3 is for interacting with cryptocurrency API's.

[sleek egret]

if you mean web2, yes, I suggest both. and other frameworks.

[fringe sphinx]

Are you a bot? Your questions are all short, without context, and just ‘what’s better’?

[sleek egret]

better how?

[fringe sphinx]

Like, what’s better? Apples or Oranges?

[buoyant seal]

django is a good default 😛 unless u know more things

[sleek egret]

yes.

[celest kite]

Aren't we all bots in one way or another?

[sleek egret]

lol

[sleek egret]

are you a biobot too?

[near ocean]

Be a better bot if you wanna participate here
A meat bot preferably

[sleek egret]

ever read that short story "They're made of meat!?!?!"

[near ocean]

I dont read unless it directly influences my paycheck 🪿

[sleek egret]

"thinking meat? that's impossible!"

[sleek egret]

it's a very short story, maybe a 5 minute read. and quite funny => https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/thinkingMeat.html

[buoyant seal]

btw, in general until u learnt typescript to good enough level, js is going to suck and being hard 😄

• get a hang of some static typed language like Golang(or Java)
• then u will be able getting hang of python typing/mypy (i think without experience in real static typed langauge it does not make a lot of sense how static typing works in interpreted languages)
• then u could learn typescript next and enjoying easier... code writing by magnitude

[pallid dome]

what is your fav programming language ??

[vapid jay]

thank you all

[vapid jay]

i worked with c#

[buoyant seal]

good enough as long as u learned it to acceptable level. Ability to write code architecture in unit testable ways, using generics, interfaces, using structs for everything (instead of abusing hashmaps)

[vapid jay]

yeah

[buoyant seal]

get to next step then 🙂

• learn how to work with it in python.

  • Learn using pydantic in all types of situation where u need data carriers, serializing, deserializing or even just setting application settings
  • mypy in a strict mode https://careers.wolt.com/en/blog/tech/professional-grade-mypy-configuration to cover all your code
  • abuse using typed NewType for every simple type
  • generate Swagger/OpenAPI docs

• go to typescript

  • https://github.com/drwpow/openapi-typescript and generate its code from swagger and enjoy easy code integration between front and back

[pallid dome]

can ya guys help me to take a good career path?

coz i m so confused thats why i m asking

[vapid jay]

ok

[pine sleet]

Can you give us more information? Country? educational background? Previous work experience? You can also leave an anonymized version of your resume here if you want a review

[pallid dome]

i m doing diploma in computer engineering and i m a student

[vapid jay]

thank you

[pallid dome]

from india

[fringe sphinx]

I’m just going to repeat myself today; don’t worry about your destination, focus on the next step. If you’re not a good programmer yet, focus on that. Once you get there, do some projects to find out what you like. Once you know what you like, you can specialize

Assuming you’re interested in software engineering/etc

[fallen zenith]

nono the question was about l1 specifically. i was looking for a way into murica that isn't, you know, random

[buoyant seal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6rP-YP4c5I
Try different programming languages, different target platforms of development (desktop, mobile, embeded, web), different job roles: Data scientist, Software engineer, DevOps engineer and etc
Find what u like 😄 u have uni time to find it.

[sleek egret]

but it's not possible to try everything

[pine sleet]

not with that attitude

[near ocean]

Ok that was cute and kinda sad at the same time, good one

[buoyant seal]

then try only a scope u can try, and preferably in the fields to which u were arleady subconsciously attracted.

in general though 4 years of uni are 4 years of uni. Pretty much plenty of time to try different IT fields lightly
That is we forget people also often enough staying 2 more years for master's degree

[delicate bane]

yeah. masters is the new bachelors lol.

also at the very least, you will find out what you DONT like

[swift scarab]

Will game development start to get easier because the AI tech?

I mean the games that are AA or even AAA

[fallen zenith]

all development is likely to start to get easier because of ai
besides like low level and embedded stuff where performance is absolutely key

[light furnace]

No

If ai made it easy, market will be flooded with ai games

Which isn't happening

[fallen zenith]

isn't happening yet
ai is in super early stages rn.

also easier doesn't mean easy.

[swift scarab]

I don't mean on the quality since that in itself depends on the person who's using it, I mean it makes the other work like making the art, making the animations and all of the other things?

[fallen zenith]

ai isn't some magic thing that will allow you to make a full blown game with one command. but it has the potential of making the process much speedier

[light furnace]

Open source and unreal is making game development more mainstream

[swift scarab]

yeah I know, but only time would tell if it will be able to lift most of the work

[fallen zenith]

since this is career discussion i'm going to make the assumption you're currently looking to get into ai as a career path. which, yes, i think this is a good choice

[swift scarab]

yes, I'm planning on taking the AI course, and I was asking if it's possible if it would be easier with time to enter game development alone using AI

[fallen zenith]

in my opinion ai has the potential to become the third big revolution in the computing business, with the first being widespread home computers and the second being internet access

[light furnace]

Like you don't need aaa game. A good addictive mobile game roll you in 💰

Look at mobile space so many publishers are rushing to want piece of that sweet microtransactions

[swift scarab]

I know that games take work, that's why I'm asking

[swift scarab]

Yeah, but I'm not in for the money as the single goal

[light furnace]

[fallen zenith]

i don't think even advanced-level gamedevs are currently capable of answering this question

while ai will surely help programmers in the future, gamedev is a pretty specific branch of programming

[light furnace]

You don't need to learn ai for game dev.

[swift scarab]

I wouldn't take the games as a career in the next 4 years probably

[fallen zenith]

i don't think anyone said you do

[swift scarab]

No, I want to engage in programming as a whole, maybe games if that is possible

[fallen zenith]

the potential earnings for ai engineers greatly exceed those of current gamedevs

(not like gamedevs are getting paid super well. faang and internet startups are better monies-wise)

[swift scarab]

hmm

probably I wouldn't take it as a career, just a dream of mine.

[fallen zenith]

i'm currently considering going into ai in college

i think going into ai vs traditional software engineering right now is like this:

you're in a car and approaching crossroads. you can now either take a normal road where the speed limit is 50 mph. the road is already there and lots of cars are on it. there's also the option of taking a brand new super nice expressway with a speed limit of 200 mph. the problem is the expressway isn't really built yet and you're relying on the fact they'll finish it before you get there

[swift scarab]

Yes I can see your point

[fallen zenith]

before you get there the construction process can either slow down or stop entirely. in which case you'll be stuck driving on dirt

[swift scarab]

I got a scholarship to study AI and I don't plan to waste it, so I'll focus on the course and nothing else, wouldn't hurt to learn other things as a hobby or something to help me later, but not risking it.

Bachelor degree to be exact.

[fallen zenith]

currently ai tech is... kinda crap. gpt4 is a nice toy but doesn't have much real-life purpose. truly useful ai will come in the near future... probably... maybe.

[swift scarab]

yeah

even AI art is obvious

[late pewter]

How do i develop a passion for coding

[swift scarab]

anyway, this is irrelevant, but How to make sure that the thump drive is legit or not? I'm planning on buying one with a Usb A and C port if possible, and I'm not sure how to check it.

[fallen zenith]

in my experience - you don't. you either have the mind for it or not

[fallen zenith]

you can't. don't get usb drives on ebay

go to a best buy or something. they're highly unlikely to scam you there

[pine sleet]

You dont develop a passion for coding, you develop a passion for building things that can be useful to you or other people

[inner wren]

Off-topic channel

#ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[pine sleet]

Carpenters don't have a passion for using a hammer, for instance

[fallen zenith]

okay maybe this is bad phrasing.

try actually making something. learn new concepts, create cool things with them. eventually you'll either learn you love or hate coding

[swift scarab]

If I was to give you an advice, I tried to learn multiple things and waited when I have the "mood" for it and I wasted alot of time waiting for it, learn something and with time you'll grow to love it, this what I'm doing with the things I want to learn, even if something is frustrating I know that this is how learning is, it's boring even if you're a pro in it, you've to learn boring stuff to make fun stuff.

[fallen zenith]

i mean... you could technically replace a call center job with a traditional algorithm too

[swift scarab]

is it was or were?

[fallen zenith]

i don't think call centers count here. but yes it has the future potential to replace jobs traditional programming failed to replace

which is why i think of it as the "third revolution"

happening with what?

[gilded valley]

could, but people weren't.

The question is not about what is possible, it's about what makes business sense. And it's starting to make business sense to fire 90% of your call centre staff

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, you ever watch Adam Savages shows? I think he loves each of his tools https://youtu.be/IiGPSn3fklI /j

[fallen zenith]

first computing revolution was widespread personal computers.
second computing revolution was widespread internet.
third will most likely be widespread ai.

[buoyant seal]

third will most likely be widespread ai. third will be using WASM instead of javascript.
https://wallpapers.com/images/hd/science-fiction-futuristic-city-5qr81x1by5cyw9rn.jpg

[fallen zenith]

oh please let that happen.

javascript is slowing down progress of the human race

[late pewter]

Will ai replace jobs? Is it still worth learning to code even if im prob gonna graduate and get a job in 6 years? Will ai take over jobs by then?

[fallen zenith]

i am 98% sure ai will not replace programming jobs

in the same way calculators did not replace mathematicians.

ai will be seen as a tool for helping a programmer rather than a way of replacing one. it will surely make a lot of tasks easier but won't eliminate the need for a devteam

and even if, it'll only happen for juniors in like 10 years most likely

by that time you'll have 4 years of experience

what are gren juniors again

hey i'm just asking a question

[buoyant seal]

How terribly low of standard quality if that happens...
.. Do they have like juniors, which are illiterate people that finished online courses only within few months and nothing else
That is not junior, that is not even intern level

[fallen zenith]

i might not know the term since i'm not from an english speaking country. no need to get rude

i'm sharing my opinion

nothing on this channel said by anyone should be considered professional advice imo

[fallen zenith]

can anyone answer this please

[fallen zenith]

unrelated but i think you should turn off pinging if replying to a message from 2021

[fallen zenith]

chatgpt isn't really an engineering tool, just a language model

i have to admit you're a really frustrating person to talk to

[fringe sphinx]

What was your original question Malik?

[fallen zenith]

what are green juniors. never heard the term getting used here in poland

[sleek egret]

"green" comes from "greenhorns" which is old american slang for newbies

[fringe sphinx]

Green is used in many contexts in US English, generally meaning new. Like green field companies (no infrastructure in place) , etc

[fallen zenith]

what's bizarre is assuming i'd know this as a european and mocking me for not knowing obscure american slang

[buoyant seal]

Green comes from describing fruits and vegetables readiness to be eaten.
It was used then to describe complete novices in any kind of profession (as in not ready to be consumed fruit / working in a normal capacity)

[fallen zenith]

but thanks for an actual answer.

[sleek egret]

using "green" to refer to new things is pretty common at this point

hmm, actually seems to have originated in england during the 1600's

[gilded valley]

it's not bizarre American slang. it's common English, I hear it plenty in the UK, and have heard European friends use the term

[sleek egret]

yet another term you colonizers forced on us poor americans

[gilded valley]

clearly you never should have been allowed to go your own way - look what you've done to colour

[sleek egret]

I blame the canadians

[fallen zenith]

it's weird how americans felt the need to drop the u from so many words

[fringe sphinx]

Efficiency

[sleek egret]

there was a "u" shortage in the 1840's

[fallen zenith]

yeah i was born a bit after that

[sleek egret]

how did you feel when the first metal nib pens were produced and destroyed the bird quill industry?

[fallen zenith]

for python career related reasons? relieved

[fringe sphinx]

Im still mad about slide rules. I never got to use one.

[sleek egret]

you can buy one now

[fallen zenith]

imagine writing python with a bird quill

[gilded valley]

it's never too late

[fallen zenith]

i found one and used it once as a novelty

[gilded valley]

I bought a typewriter for this exact reason - now I have to find somewhere to keep the stupid bloody typewriter

[sleek egret]

use it as a decorative art piece

[fallen zenith]

okay yall
career discussion time

[fringe sphinx]

Wire it up to a pi?

[fallen zenith]

you can do that?

[true harness]

wire it to an actual terminal

[fallen zenith]

(are we talking mechanical or electric typewriter?)

[gilded valley]

I would love to do some electronics project with it, but what would actually happen is I'd live with a have soldered mess on a table for 6 months then need to move

[fallen zenith]

that's every computer person ever

[sleek egret]

I suspect you'd get pretty good at soldering if you did it every day for 6 months

[fallen zenith]

everyone has to go through the "soldered mess on table" phase

[fallen zenith]

(this is not professional career advice)

[gilded valley]

I'd do it one day and then just intend to to come back to it tomorrow for 6 months in a row

[fringe sphinx]

I solder once a decade. With the quality that goes with that

[sleek egret]

when I was at university, I had one summer job fixing computers. in those days, we de-soldered, swapped out chips, re-soldered them back. I got reasonably decent at it by the end of the summer

[fringe sphinx]

But I truly enjoy soldering and crimping cables, alas careers that don’t pay

[gilded valley]

what do they say, 10,000 hrs to become a master? You'll be pretty good in just a few millenia

[sleek egret]

it pays if you're a hardware designer/prototyper

[fringe sphinx]

Math checks out

[fallen zenith]

i solder once every 6 months on average

i suck at it though

[sleek egret]

have you considered doing it more often?

[fallen zenith]

i'm pretty busy. i only solder when i need to lol

[sleek egret]

perhaps you could develop an addiction to the fumes? then you'd need to solder more often!

[fallen zenith]

that is quite the idea

[sleek egret]

thanks!

[fallen zenith]

now that is good career advice. i love discord.

[harsh river]

inaccurate for many reasons but ok

[balmy spade]

Did you have a discussion point with this that serves a purpose?

[buoyant seal]

i tended to resent this stuff, but i just realized. This will help to decrease hiring costs and will make easier life for quality juniors to apply for jobs.
So... lets greatly support this content, in order to eliminate completely illiterate comptetion that only occupies resources for real entry level candidates 😅

[fringe sphinx]

But it’s on YouTube!

[balmy spade]

Naw, I'll pass on supporting fearmongering.

[buoyant seal]

we can always be silently supporting 😅
this thing is viral anyway, distributed by illiterate people. Perfectly multiplying on its own

[fringe sphinx]

It is a popular hot take though. And if we’re talking careers, I think we could all make hot takes and make money on YouTube

‘Ai is coming for your jerbs!’

[balmy spade]

You do you. I'll entertain any actual conversation with verification that @late pewter wants to provide. Beyond that, the trash video is parroted sound clips with the sole purpose of fearmongering. I feel it should be removed from the channel unless a conversation is held by the op on it.

[smoky quest]

I don't even know any of the people talking. So not sure why I would pay attention to them rather than anyone else

[fringe sphinx]

Meh, it’s a legit take that comes up. It’s worth discussing for the millionth time if someone wants to discuss it.

But it’s just us talking to each other again

[buoyant seal]

🙈 we could optimize spent time on thic topic, by having some great pin to link each time it araises. Or even answering with some Python Bot command that gives answer. Considering how many times topic araised, it could be useful

[fringe sphinx]

So nice of you to volunteer!

While we’re on the topic. A ‘what makes a good resume’ pin would be nice

[true harness]

it's just re going "👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏"

[gilded valley]

or even threads dedicated to these topics where the first message explains the consensus,

[fringe sphinx]

I saw you propose that but don’t really get it… by I’m not a big discorder: I’ve just seen threads for short term topics

[near ocean]

My vote is ban the person that brings this topic up, on sight, sigh its late

[gilded valley]

#discord-bots message

here's an example of them being used this way on this server

[delicate bane]

oh this might be a good way to organize things for #career-advice

[spiral sparrow]

Anybody here

For programming I do not have a lot of embedded system but am interesting into getting into that area or microcontrollers

[gritty rivet]

If you have a question about that you could go ahead and ask it

[spiral sparrow]

What started project did out until no can do to do embedded systems

[true harness]

i'm having trouble parsing that sentence

[gritty rivet]

Is this what you're trying to ask for? https://cushychicken.github.io/embedded-systems-project-ideas/

[spiral sparrow]

Yes as thank you

[vapid jay]

<@&267628507062992896> hi sorry to bother u but i need help

[peak halo]

uh, yes? is there a problem?

[celest kite]

pops the popcorn

[vapid jay]

yh life i mean regarding python

[celest kite]

Have you tried #❓｜how-to-get-help ?

[vapid jay]

my question was ab career

[peak halo]

whatever your question is, direct it to everyone, not just the mods or admins. we're here to help moderate and administer the server--we aren't on-call to answer questions.

[vapid jay]

yh but then who can answer or help me

[peak halo]

whoever happens to see your message who can answer. people check these channels all the time.

[prisma hollow]

Is tags of admin and moderators are notified to everyone?

[peak halo]

all the admins get an admin ping, and most mods get a mod ping.

[prisma hollow]

Then why im getting ping when im non of them lol

[peak halo]

check your notification settings for this channel.

[prisma hollow]

Alright done ty

I tho I've put it on only me but it was on everyone

[covert orchid]

Maybe weird question but what kind of job would match with the code jam (qualifier)? I like this kind of things a lot, even though I'm still a beginner in Python

[gritty rivet]

I have no idea what their qualifier involved, but I assume it's fairly basic

There are some jobs where basic Python is a key skill, but few if any where it is the only skill required

To say much more than that we'd need to know where you're at in your career journey. If you're a high school student, focus on getting a relevant degree. If you're older than that, your strategy will depend on what kind of background and work experience you currently have

[covert orchid]

I'm now in my first job, but I'm switching in a few months. Atm it's a bit of SQL, Python and Azure. But I feel like it's a lot of repetitive work and I don't have a lot of freedom to build things. There's also no real strategy.
I think the qualifier is pretty basic yes, it took me a few hours to finish it. I just liked the type of programming a lot 😄 I think I would like Python to be a key skill indeed, I don't expect it to be the only skill 🙂

[gritty rivet]

So you're already working with Python and other relevant technologies, that's great! Sounds like you could search for and apply to jobs that let you do more of... Well, whatever it is that you're saying you want to do more of.

[covert orchid]

Haha 😆 yea I just don't know if that should be software developer, data science, data engineer (which I do now) or maybe even another job title. My idea now is to indeed just try some jobs until I find what I like. Just thought maybe someone has an idea based on the qualifier assignment
Thanks for reacting btw 🙂

[azure heart]

What about the qualifier did you enjoy? Working with images/image manipulation?

[late pewter]

how long would it take to learn lua

[delicate bane]

if you are interested in any data roles, i recommend taking a look at Fundamentals of Data Engineering (FoDE) btw

[covert orchid]

Thanks for the tip! 🙂

[covert orchid]

Good question ^^ I like that it gives a clear assignment: it's very clear when it's done. And the autonomy to reach that goal. Next to that I like that you really need to think on how to get the result. In my current job sometimes I need to write some error handling or idk, some 'simple' things. Usually a large part of the time is analysis; once you know what the issue is, the implementation is not that complex. You don't really need to think about it, just write it (that's how it feels to me at least). So the thinking part is definitely fun. In this case with images, but I imagine there can be other data types that also require it.

[azure heart]

I'm a bit biased but I think you'd really enjoy Tech Art. There's a lot of problem solving/thinking/planning that happens outside the actual coding

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr7XYXMM7-U

If you're curious to learn more

[covert orchid]

Hmm interesting. Didn't know about that and kinda forgot about the gaming industry 😄 I'll definitely add it to the list of roles

[azure heart]

I'm not in the code jam but I also did the qualifier and really enjoyed it for the same reasons

[gritty rivet]

I think many of us prefer assignments with clear requirements and objectives. I know I do. But I feel like figuring out what it is that we're supposed to be figuring out in the first place is one of the hardest things about engineering. Some companies and roles are probably better then others in setting individual engineers up for success in this regard.

[lunar comet]

as long as it takes. each individual is different.

what does it mean to learn a language?

writing a hello world? competency? mastery? contribute to the source code? confidence in making anything you want? there are many ways to define learn. and we don't know the context of what you want to do.

[pliant bobcat]

Hey guys for short term plain I am thinking on working on web development because it looks kinda easy to adapt to while at same enhance my skills for machine learning positions for long term plans on the future.

Is that okay doing that?

[deft herald]

do what you want

What's your goal? Getting a job or learning?

[pliant bobcat]

Hello there Meltz . I love learning but for now it's more of money wise and getting a job

[smoky quest]

ML would typically involved people with a masters

[pliant bobcat]

Also is not working for some time affect me negatively when applying to companies? Like would they say why didn't you get a job after graduating for 2 months? I personally would say that I spent this time enhancing my knowledge. My goal plan is to land web development jobs and finish reading Ian goodfellow deep learning book

[pliant bobcat]

Oh :( . Even if I made a research or good ML projects?

[smoky quest]

If you could push through it and finish it, that would make a huge difference, especially if you get a bs or ms.
So to that end, possible ideas:

• Grants and student loans
• Part time jobs
• Discussing your situation with your teachers
• Figuring out ways to shorten your thesis research

[pliant bobcat]

@smoky quest I made a research to be submitted to IEEE

[smoky quest]

Put yourself in the shoes of a potential employer:
There is someone without a degree nor experience who wants to join the company remotely

[smoky quest]

Was it accepted, published and referenced by others?

[pliant bobcat]

Waiting for acceptance status . But it has new approaches not mentioned in previous papers

[smoky quest]

So it doesn't count... yet

[smoky quest]

A CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[pliant bobcat]

Hmm . So companies will put more priority on experience and degree more than knowledge and practical projects and researches

[pliant bobcat]

I have a bachelor CS degree. But not masters XP

[smoky quest]

having degrees means you have a lot of knowledge, practical projects and research

[pliant bobcat]

Hope it gets accepted . I will be very happy if it did

[smoky quest]

That's actually great!
That definitely increase your odds.

In terms of remoteness, junior are still preferred to be onsite for better coaching

[pliant bobcat]

I indeed did a lot of projects. Human activity recognition system , mini compiler , security project between two users and encryption decryption with Des from scratch and bunch of other projects too

[pliant bobcat]

Oh that's very neeeat

[fossil perch]

Hey guys. I'm sorry to interrupt your conversation. I recently bought a book on learning Python for dummies, and I want to ask: how can I not give up? You understand how it is to read a book: at first you read, you are interested, and then you throw it away for many months. Could you answer this question?

[smoky quest]

have you talked about it with one of your professor?

[pliant bobcat]

Have not read it but if you want a more practical book . You could check hands on machine learning book

[smoky quest]

you need to figure out what motivates you.
If you don't read the chapters, then it means something is going on

[pliant bobcat]

Actually if it's a first dive into machine learning .I totally recommend grokking machine learning book . It's by far the most engaging introduction to ML

You will love every bit of page on that book and will find the explaination intuitive

The author is popular too . He did an LLM course and Andrew ng. Mentioned him

[fossil perch]

Oh, i understand.

[pliant bobcat]

You need to read the books that doesn't bore you out and make you engaged . Not getting engaged within the atmosphere of the book will not make you grasp the concepts of the book

[fossil perch]

Anyway, thank you for these advices, I thought you'd be more aggressive and send me to hell.

One more question: in what languages ​​are games often written?

[pliant bobcat]

Lmao . I sometimes give sinister approach to people glad you saw me sound good haha

[buoyant seal]

C# and C++ for desktop are common. Unity and unreal engines accordingly.

Java with some partial migrating to Kotlin for Android

Swift for iOS/MacOS

P.s. Minecraft was made in Java for all platforms 🙂

[fossil perch]

Oh, interesting. What about lua?

[buoyant seal]

As far as I know it is just common auxillary glue language for additional internal stuff.
For example all sub extra plugin logic for Avorion is written in it

Tldr: scripting lang for add-ons/plugins as additional extra lang

[harsh river]

i'm sorry to hear that, eating yogurt for both lunch and dinner is unhealthy and unsustainable for long periods of time, i highly suggest checking out (assuming you're in the US) https://www.usa.gov/emergency-food-assistance and https://www.feedingamerica.org/need-help-find-food , i also suggest getting in touch with your college counselor ASAP and they can mobilize to help you get food assistance via the college / university

[fossil perch]

As I understand it, for example addons for Garrys mod are written in glua, but it is practically no different from lua.

[pliant bobcat]

Sorry for late reply was busy

[fossil perch]

It's ok

[pliant bobcat]

Unity godot unreal game engine are the goats . See what suits you from them and start

[fossil perch]

Thank you. I've been dreaming of writing a game for a long time, but I only started now

Although, where do I care about games, I should at least learn how to write normally ...

[buoyant seal]

Glua... Lue Glue 😅

[fossil perch]

Ha ha😄

[buoyant seal]

I care too, but chose web backend career though.
Learning Java as third language, because it is both good for backend and I will satisfy my gaming drive to make some Minecraft mods 😀

Minecraft modding community is the most dev rich in the world. 120 thousands of mods

C# is both good enough for web backend and for games too

Only C++ is locking into desktop/system/embedded stuff

!rule 5 delete please

[inner wren]

Rules

5. Do not provide or request help on projects that may violate terms of service, or that may be deemed inappropriate, malicious, or illegal.

[fossil perch]

But you know a lot of things, and for example, you can write excellent code yourself (as I think), but I just plunged into it, and I don’t know what awaits me yet. Also, sorry for talking so much about myself and wasting your time, this is my last message.

I am so sorry guys.

[covert orchid]

Yeah I also think it's about company culture. At my company there isn't a general strategy or consensus on where we're going. It's really hard to start your own initiatives too. It's like they're fine with you not doing much, as long as u do the things they ask and don't take any risks 🤔 (it's quite a corporate company) that's why I'm going to switch jobs.

[lunar comet]

I forced myself to read python material. I was motivated by a desire to learn programming, as I had failed all previous attempts to learn. I told myself that this would be the time I learn, and I knew that no matter how long it took to read, I would grasp the basics of python. Python Crash Course by Eric Matthes has a lot of practical examples and may be less dense for a beginner.

I think it's better to have a goal rather than to force yourself. Think about something you want to create. Is it a game? Is it a fascination with how computers work? Is it the desire to learn something very useful and eventually do it with ease?
Write out that goal, in very specific details. As you learn more about programming, more ideas will come to you that you could create.
Always deviate from the tutorial. Change the project to do something you come up with. Fix the tutorial's project if it tells you to do things that aren't best practice.
Recreate the project in a different theme. (ex. a pizza shop console program. make it into a comic book storage program if that's what you're interested in)
It's all about creating a burning desire via a goal that you dream about and think about and work towards every day. It makes you want to learn as much as possible because learning becomes fun. It becomes progress.
Find a book that you can apply this to (as in, it doesn't force you to be completely strict, no deviation from the tutorial). For me, Python Crash Course was this book
@fossil perch

[fossil perch]

I see it

[fallen meadow]

Great

[floral plume]

any proffesional here

[balmy spade]

What would you ask if there were?

[deft herald]

Yeah what's your question 😄 Many of us here are working professionals

[floral plume]

what should I do, ml or web dev, as you know ml is on boom but rises both jobs and competition and web dev jobs are comparatively more but is very much automatable, what should I pursue

[fringe sphinx]

Following from other thread: I mean, are you in college? Working? High school? How’s your programming skills?

[deft herald]

If you're worried about AI taking over your CS related career, don't be

[fringe sphinx]

Most people who ask questions like this haven’t or have only just begun their coding programming.

[floral plume]

Im just 16, at home, pursuing buisness tech and many things

[fringe sphinx]

Planning on college? Have you programmed anything meaningful?

[floral plume]

no im in learning phase, i have not developed something useful to others

[deft herald]

Given your age and life stage, try learning both

[fringe sphinx]

Ok, so I’d suggest; don’t worry about your life goal. Just get good at programming first: you’ll have lots of chances to specialize later.

[deft herald]

Web will probably easier to learn first than ML

[floral plume]

Im doing both actually

[deft herald]

great!

[floral plume]

btw in what industry you work

[balmy spade]

I would agree with the suggestion. ML, web dev, and things between will all benefit from an understanding of programming. Find something that sparks your interest and build.

[fringe sphinx]

Lately, lots of finance, generally: anything data engineering related

[floral plume]

so you are saying you are rich

[fringe sphinx]

Lol

[balmy spade]

Money Bags Billy, as we know them.

[deft herald]

Money don't make you rich, yo

[floral plume]

Someone please tell this guy difference between rich and wealthy

[sleek egret]

rich people earn lots of money. wealthy people pay the rich people.

or to put it another way, wealth is assets that generate income

[floral plume]

yes money don't make you *wealthy, money make you rich, assets don't make you rich assets make you wealthy

[sleek egret]

learn math. a solid mathematical foundation is the bedrock that will keep you employed and working for the man.

[floral plume]

is it for me?

wanna play chess?

[supple niche]

Looking for someone that is well experienced with scripting, coding API. I need someone that can make a program and connect it to my website with API. DM me if interested for a partnes Ship

[sleek egret]

I don't know if math is for you

[floral plume]

no I was asking if you were talking to me

[sleek egret]

not specifically

[floral plume]

ok, as I previously asked for some career advice i thought so

[sleek egret]

do what you love?

[supple niche]

Looking for someone that is well experienced with scripting, coding API. I need someone that can make a program and connect it to my website with API. DM me if interested for a partnes Ship

[harsh river]

you won't find that person here, and if you do they'll want to get paid, not a partnership

[empty charm]

hello

[gritty rivet]

!rules 9 Walking a fine line there

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[tender thicket]

!ban 417310019131015170 homophobia

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @supple niche permanently.

[empty charm]

but... why??

[feral apex]

I just finished a python course and I can write code like I can make tic tac toe games and stuff, but where do I go from there? I need help in finding like a route to continue learning

[fringe sphinx]

!kindling keep working on projects and practicing!

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[feral apex]

Thank you I will check it out

[fringe sphinx]

And hang out in #python-discussion and you’ll learn a lot, there’s a lot of conversations and new ideas there

[feral apex]

Alright, thanks

[native narwhal]

do you think more jobs for django or flask?

just a random question wanna hear opinions

[gritty rivet]

You can easily find the data but I'm too lazy to search for you.... Probably Django but if you know one you can still get hired for the other. Ultimately good to have experience with both (and/or FastAPI)

[native narwhal]

data says Django overall but 2023 data sayas Flask

[gritty rivet]

Interesting. Pretty close though and I doubt Django is going away anytime soon

[wind swift]

hey everyone, so tyically this is a career related topic but im wondering if anyone can get me some advice regarding it.

im wanting to take up a software engineering course thats been offered to me in my country and will always help job place me afterwards.

anyways the question im hopefully wanting advice on is the conetration and focusing part of learning the code, they have me doing a pre-course in html before starting me on the actaul course itself to show my willingness to take said course, but im getting overwhelmed on the smallest tasks and its taking me way to long to understand and or finish each task on this code academy html course.... coding is something i want to stop at nothing to learn and coding is enjoyable for me but sadly im having a hard time focusing, i have lofi music on low and reading everything but after 15-20 mins i have to take a break cause my brains going to mush.... any advice would be very helpful 🙂

[native narwhal]

its been long for me too in IT its not fast, that much I can tell u its slow process a lot of material but worth it

[balmy spade]

You already know your current ability to stay productively focused. Work for 20 minutes, reset for 5, repeat. Do this two, four, N number of times until you feel like the reset isn't helping. Then put it away and do something else. Repeat this pattern. As you get more comfortable, increase the work time by five minutes.
Learning is a skill. You actually have to train how to learn. Like any other training, breaks are vitally important.

[smoky quest]

Also in case, make sure you set up yourself for success by disabling notifications or any potential distractions

[oak tide]

Am I allowed to ask for resume/job application advice here? I have applied to thousands of positions but have received no offers

[pine sleet]

Feel free to leave an anonymized version of your resume here for reviews

[oak tide]

Thanks! Ill send that here soon

[fossil perch]

Im reading same book

[oak tide]

Here's a screenshot of my resume. Discord doesnt let me send word docs

[true harness]

you just graduated this May?

[harsh river]

"solve problems on leetcode every day", i don't think you should include that at all

[oak tide]

yes

[oak tide]

oh okay thanks. why not though? just curious

[true harness]

overall, you need to show, not tell. simply saying you did something is not enough. you built an application with Django; so what? what is interesting? what makes the project stand out?
another point is that you spend too little time on each project and your work experience. you should have more bullet points to elaborate on the previous thing I mentioned. also, your swe experience should be the focus of your resume; it's the most relevant thing you have, it deserves more than 2 bullets

[oak tide]

Thanks!

[true harness]

I kind of agree; it's not typically what you would think of as a project

[oak tide]

That's what I was thinking, but where else can I put it? Or should I remove it completely?

[true harness]

I would just not include it. I would guess the vast majority of candidates will have done leetcode

[cursive gust]

Is advertising allowed?

[smoky quest]

nope

[vapid jay]

Can Python just only be used in web development like Django and flask for BS?

[smoky quest]

no. It can be used for more than that

[vapid jay]

I said just for work. But software development and website development. Just using python to create scripts is not get a job.

[smoky quest]

me too.
Python can be used for more than that

[tacit steeple]

hi guys is roadmap sh a good starting point for being a backend dev? hoping to get some suggestions. tried out front end and didn't like it. more interested in the things under the hood.

[crisp oriole]

Hi everyone what jobs can I get as a computer programmer or how can I start and turn into a computer programmer

[smoky quest]

it depends on your situation.
In general, a CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

^ @crisp oriole applies to you too

[tacit steeple]

yea, planning to self taught, have 2 young kids and remote job. schooling might be tricky to fit in schedule.

[smoky quest]

got it.
Then it's a path of more resistance.
Frontend is easier than backend though. But to answer your question, the backend roadmap is a good start. And remote is especially more difficult for someone without experience

is there a question?

so what's the point?

it's not a channel for shitposting.

mods have access to deleted messages, @quiet steppe

<@&831776746206265384> shitposting

This has nothing to do with this channel.
You should check #❓｜how-to-get-help

still has nothing to do with this channel.

You also make it difficult to want to help you

[tranquil birch]

!warn 746884290058518653 Do not spam our channels. See #code-of-conduct and #rules

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @quiet steppe.

[harsh river]

that's probably illegal in certain areas

[smoky quest]

still has nothing to do with this channel.

Bowel movements can sure help with having great interviews. Still not related to this channel

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[quiet steppe]

How did u reply to me if I said nothing

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> shitposting again

[quiet steppe]

Lmao

[tacit steeple]

I meant I'm currently doing remote, yes I've seen that front end is easier, hopefully a backend path will pave way to more opportunities since everybody is going front end

[smoky quest]

currently doing remote what?

[smoky quest]

One thing to note is that each job ad receives thousands of applications.
So make sure you have 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏 and projects to stand out

[tacit steeple]

supply chain job

[smoky quest]

is it anything related to a software development job?

[tacit steeple]

no, very unrelated. looking to break into the industry for longterm career prospect, I'll make sure to create projects to highlight my learnings

thank you for the help 🙂 means a lot to someone starting out

[smoky quest]

np, any time

[sand patio]

!mute 746884290058518653 you were already warned earlier, you won't be asked again.

[inner wren]

:x: The user doesn't appear to be on the server.

[vapid jay]

I think they should

[smoky quest]

no. That would be a terrible idea

[vapid jay]

If you have done many.. frankly that's good and better than most. How many have you done?

[vapid jay]

Your opinion. But not a terrible idea as you say.

Of course if a person puts a link to a LeetCode profile which has hundreds of problems solved with an average of 99 percentile (as a limiting case) that's awesome compared to many, even if it could be a forged profile (but then again, everything could be forged - GitHub projects in a portfolio might not be from the candidate, etc. etc.)

[smoky quest]

it shows the person missed the point.
That would translate in a low rate of calls back

[vapid jay]

Qualify your opinion. Who are you that you would know better in this case? Are you a recruiter with access to a large data set of opinions specifically on this topic?

An excellent LeetCode solver who says they are and can "prove" it (can anything be "proven" in a CV? few things can) is much better than many others and you insisting that getting credit for that is a "terrible idea" needs very strong backing.

If Google themselves have hired using LeetCode how can anybody say that having good LeetCode skills is a bad signal? These comments baffle me.

[harsh river]

oh boy.

[buoyant seal]

Wrong GitHub portfolio will be very easily revealed during tech interview.
When we will discover that person's code writing skills do not match GitHub projects

Also one person has version style/signature to his code with writing. We could easily see mismatches between style in projects

[smoky quest]

I am one of the people who interview and hire people.
If I remember correctly, you still have yet to have any professional experience?

[fossil bison]

Hello guys
i have a 3 years of experience working with ( React.js / Next.js / Redux.js ) and it feels hard for me to find new job wither in Upwork or Linked in
i live in Middle East and i'm not able to find a us-based company most of companies require working visa and i don't have it
is the front end seems way popular right now i cant even land a single interview out of that
what should i do i would like to hear your thoughts

[smoky quest]

If Google themselves have hired using LeetCode how can anybody say that having good LeetCode skills is a bad signal? These comments baffle me.

Being baffled is not surprising but only goes further in demonstrating you have a lot to learn.
People don't get hired because they know leetcode, but leetcode helps in demonstrating they know things

[smoky quest]

These sound like different questions:

• How to get jobs in frontend
• How to get job in the USA

Which one are you asking for help about?

Be aware that companies will pay you based on your location, not on the company's location

[vapid jay]

You doing something at some place has hardly any statistical relevance. Don't portray your experience as statistically relevant when it's just an opinion. Don't presume to know what others will think when you happen to think one way. There will be people admiring a great LeetCode profile. That you don't... is... not something that should influence somebody who might have great skills they could "demonstrate".

[buoyant seal]

Welcome to real world 😁
People do care where u pay taxes and having work permits

Feel free to share your resume, I could recommend what u can learn in order to increase your attractiveness and stand out in comparison to others

That is if u a willing to learn smth

Also may be issue in badly configured resume

[smoky quest]

again, this is not how the professional world works.
It's not a reason to give terrible advice. Please withhold advice where you lack actual evidence or experience

[harsh river]

you literally asked him what is it he does that his opinion holds any weight, he then proceeded to back his statements up and you disregard his experience ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[vapid jay]

People don't get hired because they "know" LeetCode (what do you mean by "know" by the way?) but including a great LeetCode profile if one has one:

1. it is not a terrible idea (so, don't give that advice)
2. does not show that one does not "know how things are" as things are in many different ways, not like Recursive Error says (what they think is probably of little importance because of the error in 1)

[vapid jay]

What is their experience? That they hire at some place? That's a low bar.

[smoky quest]

you are missing the point

[fossil bison]

both as a frontend and with US or UK or CA based companies these places are good as i used to work as independent contractor with us-based company

[fossil bison]

not all really i have worked with us-based company for a almost 2 years and before with CA based company as independant contractor and they doesn't care where i will pay taxes 😄

[vapid jay]

You said, giving advice, the following:

That would be a terrible idea
would you like to retract that as bad advice re: including a LeetCode profile? I think you should

[late flame]

It's a pretty terrible idea. If the best thing you can put on your resume are some toy challenges that literally every one does then you don't stand out. If you do have better experiences, then you focus on those instead and you don't waste space with leetcode.

[smoky quest]

alright, and how may we help you?
Posting an anonymized resume may help setting some context

[smoky quest]

Why would I retract it?
That was a shitty idea the first time and it's still is.

[vapid jay]

Every one does LeetCode? Sure. I can do one Easy exercise and say "I did it!". But.. it's nothing. Try doing Hard easily... now that's a bar not many pass. Do you pass that bar yourself? Link to your profile?

[harsh river]

you're right People don't get hired because they "know" LeetCode, they get hired because they can demonstrate their skills via leetcode, you really shouldn't include it because your leetcode is a virtual profile. There is no way to prove that you have solved all the problems by yourself by linking your leetcode profile. The best way to show it is to impress them in the interview

[fossil bison]

will set one quickly

[harsh river]

okay, so what's your experience?

[smoky quest]

on top of that, linking to a leetcode profile sends the signal you prepared for leetcode questions in general and not the job.
Which means that peopel will put less weight on it and switch gears to other things.
It also means they missed the points in terms of what a job requires

[vapid jay]

Are you the person validating your own claims? If that's so then I can side with you for solidarity but every person's opinion should only matter "1" in a statistical sample. Your "1" is still just "1", however much you insist on it

[late flame]

I think it's a bad idea so that's 2

[vapid jay]

That is I asked a person "does a LeetCode full of great Hard solution mean something?" they typically say "not enough to justify a hire, of course, but it's a POSITIVE signal!"

[smoky quest]

In this market, things are moving a tad slower.
So quickly might be relative. Also depending on which middle east country, it may make things more or less difficult in the current environment

[smoky quest]

I have had multiple jobs, I talk to people, I have a professional network. So yeah, I can make market wide claims. What about you?

[vapid jay]

2 drops in the ocean. Each "1" of "1" + "1" has its value, sure. 2. Does your Stats course say to follow 2 or to keep sampling?

[harsh river]

i'll add my +1 to that, if you make a survey you'll have more votes for don't do it than do it

[vapid jay]

You can't because you have had jobs. You can't as a person who has not collected a rigorous sample make market wide claims. I am sure you think you can.. but you unfortunately can't.

[vapid jay]

Statistics are worth more than you individually, however much you think your "1" opinion is worth.

[smoky quest]

That does not answer my question.
What makes your claim so heavy comparing to everyone else in this channel?
Or are you here just to troll?

[vapid jay]

that including a LeetCode with great performance is a "terrible idea"? You are giving +1 to that? Why is it a "terrible idea" for you too? Care to elaborate?

[harsh river]

i did explain why i think it's a bad idea, you ignored me and instead went on a "no u" & "1" + "1" equals 2 and therefore worthless rant

[late flame]

At this point I'm sure your leetcode solutions are actually pretty terrible

[vapid jay]

"Everyone else". Have you sampled "everyone else"? You haven't. That's a lot of people to sample.

If LeetCode is sometimes used for part of the assessment of somebody's skills (do we need proof of that or can we accept that as true) to include a line on doing very well on LeetCode is more likely to signal positively rather than negatively. You calling it a "terrible idea" is the strong claim to be backed by evidence, not the claim that "if X is a positive signal having X is.. a positive signal"

[smoky quest]

That does not answer my question.
What makes your claim so heavy comparing to everyone else in this channel?
Or are you here just to troll?

[vapid jay]

They probably are. But what makes you think that way?

[late flame]

But you haven't talked to everyone else either. You only have your own opinion and you think you're so much smarter than everyone else so you must be right, even though you're the only one that's never held a job.

[smoky quest]

So far, it sounds like a seagull: it shows up, have some shitty claims, shit on people and fly away

[vapid jay]

I for sure am not smarter than anybody here. And yes, I have talked to tens of others but I think that 10s of X is... a minuscule sample so I don't even bother mentioning it. It could have selection bias, e.g. "those around me"

[late flame]

You're really, really arrogant, and I've never met someone that arrogant that could actually back it up.

[vapid jay]

Arrogant about what though. Which skill have I claimed that I may have? None?

[late flame]

So by your own logic you also don't know what's actually true but you still want to argue about it.

[vapid jay]

But it's logical that if LeetCode is used whilst selecting Engineers that a good score on LeetCode be a good signal, no? That is logical. To say that it may be a "terrible idea" seems.. illogical.

[smoky quest]

It's a strong claim without enough samples to back it up.
What experience or statistical data do you have to demonstrate it?

The logic was also shown as dubious a few messages above.

[vapid jay]

Which part are you arguing against? That companies use LeetCode? Let's go step by step. Do you disbelieve that and need proof of that?

[harsh river]

ah yes, goalpost moving

[smoky quest]

That does not answer my question.
What makes your claim so heavy comparing to everyone else in this channel?
Or are you here just to troll?

[late flame]

Leetcode isn't used to select engineers. Questions about your technical skills select engineers. Leetcode asks those questions but they can't be evaluated in the same way so a leetcode profile is pointless.

You're basically signaling that you did a lot of toy problems that have no real world use, and you're proud of it for some reason. You have no projects, no education, no experience that would be better put in the resume instead. It's like saying you're good at using email; if you had something actually impressive to say you'd say that instead.

[vapid jay]

Do you agree or disagree that companies use LeetCode as a proxy to signal coding skills (some part of coding, and not enough to hire)?

It's a simple question: agree | disagree.

[smoky quest]

We have been over the same thing for a bit now and I am still waiting:
That does not answer my question.
What makes your claim so heavy comparing to everyone else in this channel?
Or are you here just to troll?

[gilded valley]

@vapid jay every conversation you have here is arguing terribly for some hot take.

humility is a valuable skill - as is knowing when nothing productive can be garnered from a conversation

[vapid jay]

Ok, so you won't answer the question. No worries. I think further interaction is futile. Peace, bro.

[harsh river]

you did the exact same thing, hypocrite much?

[smoky quest]

np. I will still wait for your answer

[gilded valley]

I don't even disagree strongly on this hot take, but your approach to discussion is awful

[vapid jay]

Hot take? It seems logical that having a good LeetCode profile is good Vs a "terrible idea", doesn't it?

[late flame]

I honestly would love to see what you think a good leetcode profile looks like.

[gilded valley]

it's a very tiresome kind of arrogance

[vapid jay]

What's awful about it? Telling somebody that they are saying "it's a terrible idea" as if it were gospel where they shouldn't?

[vapid jay]

I say that saying "it's a terrible" idea is arrogant and resisting that until it's backed up by data is intellectual honesty. How about that?

It's not only strange but illogical so.. it should be challenged, no?

[gilded valley]

I'm not getting into it - but if in 1-5y time you look back at how you were, you might go "dear god I was a prick, people even pointed it out at the time!"

[smoky quest]

you will probably understand better once you get out of school and have a few years of experience.
Right now, you don't seem to be in the right space and able to have proper arguments

[vapid jay]

Do you want me to agree out of courtesy? I can do that. @smoky quest you were right and I was wrong. Sorry, your "professional network" allows you to make "market wide claims", as you said it allows you. I take back everything I said and I yield to your appeal to your own authority and put this to rest. Your position in society makes it so that your idea goes unchallenged, and I stand corrected. Thank you

[smoky quest]

Multiple people have provided various arguments from different angles.
Your inability to pick up them up is not the responsibility of the folks in this channel.

I hope for you that you eventually mature enough to understand them someday.

[vapid jay]

I hope to be better some day too. When I'll have a position in society I'll ask people, as you do, "what have you achieved" and based on their achievements (i.e.. not the **quality of their ideas **- which in this case was the simple idea of "including a great LeetCode profile is NOT a terrible idea") I'll be able to put them down and say that they have a world to learn and ask them to accept my viewpoints as mature and theirs as immature.

I thought in the past that it's not about "who says it" .. it's about what is being said. Watched Feynman's lecture? He says "it doesn't matter if you are a Professor.. if it's wrong.. it's WRONG". And he goes on to say that we can ask proof of anybody. What about Carl Sagan?

extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

To say that including a great LeetCode profile in a CV is a "terrible idea" was, in my view, an extraordinary claim. But.. I accept it based on authority of @smoky quest , who knows best.

[harsh river]

can you answer one question? just one?

[smoky quest]

I always know best 🕶️

[vapid jay]

Yes, Sir or Madam. You do.

I bow to you and won't challenge you again. I am blocking you actually so that I don't get tempted. You'll probably enjoy that. Sorry for having been a momentary perturbation.

[harsh river]

@vapid jay can you answer one single question i have?

[vapid jay]

I'll try..

[harsh river]

what sort of work experience do you have?

[vapid jay]

None

[harsh river]

that's what i thought, thank you.

[vapid jay]

I have no work experience.

I just dislike bad advice like "including a great LeetCode profile in a CV is a terrible idea" being given based on posturing for having had a job. The idea seemed contrary to both logic and (limited!) empiric evidence I have had when asking about it.

These channels get conquered by people imposing a viewpoint based on unrelated accomplishments with no burden of proof, just "because I say so".

I do find good advice here, often. That one was outlandish. To me.

[late flame]

What's a leetcode hard question

[vapid jay]

It's one marked as Hard by the system.

[late flame]

But like, what's one that you're proud of doing?

[vapid jay]

I am unable to solve LeetCode Hard for sure.

I am far removed from being able to solve them.

[late flame]

Do you have a medium one you're proud of?

[gilded valley]

your style of discussion (or quality of ideas as you put it) is the problem. but it's a style of discussion which screams inexperience, can only be from someone with no experience, is why it gets brought up.

I've known 15yos who didn't suffer from this "I know everything" vibe, but most do. I certainly did.

[vapid jay]

None which I am proud of. Mediums are also kinda hard. For me.

[late flame]

Yeah definitely don't put it on your resume. You can't even do most leetcode questions, so how would you know if it's impressive or not?

[vapid jay]

Is the quality of the idea "LeetCode profiles are ok and not a terrible idea" bad? Or "other" ideas? The idea that one should back a claim with evidence beyond "I say so"? Which of these two ideas, if any, is of low quality, in your view?

[smoky quest]

if only someone spent time explaining the reasoning and the why not. If only...

[vapid jay]

I don't put it on my resume. But somebody who might have a great profile... might want to include it, without it being a "terrible idea" because @smoky quest says so because they "know"

[smoky quest]

spend more time reading people answers and less time listening to yourself

[vapid jay]

@smoky quest I see a message but now you are blocked sorry. Next time.. I don't want to trigger you so I am not expanding it

[smoky quest]

that's alright. I don't mind

[vapid jay]

I'd appreciate an honest answer to my question, please. Which of my ideas is of low quality?

[delicate bane]

my friend, chill. i would also say you shouldnt include a leetcode profile on a cv only bc i know hiring managers wont care.

[late flame]

You think it's impressive, but it's only impressive to you a person that has no experience. It's not impressive to the people that have experience.

That's the disconnect. If the only person that thinks an idea is good is the person with the least real world experience, doesn't that say something?

[delicate bane]

im a different coffee btw. in case that wasnt clear. i am however also a working professional so theres that

i think if you were able to see other candidates resumes, you would better understand and have more insight.

[vapid jay]

Well, that's a substantive answer. Are you saying that if a person were able to solve the hardest LeetCode questions that would still not be impressive to a software engineer? As a statement that would apply to a majority of software engineers or at least a significant portion of them? That is surprising to me.

[vapid jay]

Oh, some claim projects which accomplished something. Results. Revenue. Efficiency expressed as a %. But.. it's all "claims". They could be true. They could be creative. Every claim has an ounce of "maybe" in it, don't they all?

@gilded valley which idea is of low quality?

[delicate bane]

yes but if its a shared niche, then you could easily deep dive with the candidate and find out whether they are telling the truth or not. what type of problems they have solved in that space. i promise.

[vapid jay]

I believe that. Drilling would find out the truth both for projects and LeetCode wonderful profiles. I do not resist that assertion. It's logical, after all.

[gilded valley]

I have no urge to get in a back and forth with you - I'm not pursuing the conversation with you any further

[delicate bane]

time for bed 🛌

[summer roost]

Why are we even talking about LeetCode profiles? The person who posted their resume used 3 bullets to say that they're good at LeetCode, without any link to a profile.

[vapid jay]

Thank you. You said this in the past and then for some reason decided to undo that resolution. I accept it as final now. Thanks for the sarcasm you gave me in the past in messages like this:
#career-advice message
I thought it was both funny and an insight into what a professional does once they get a job: they are sarcastic (and caustic? maybe?) with students on Discord. I can't wait, I say with a pinch of sarcasm myself, but I am a beginner in comparison

[gilded valley]

the book How to Win Friends and Influence People is probably worth a read

[vapid jay]

I read it!

[summer roost]

what do you mean by "use LeetCode"?

[gilded valley]

well you don't seem to do a great job of practising it

[vapid jay]

They have or had LeetCode -style (e.g. HackerRank, LeetCode itself, others) as part of their selection process. As a screening step or otherwise.

[summer roost]

sure. Companies use similar questions to LeetCode in interviews.

[vapid jay]

And they interpret good performance on those "hygiene" checks as a requirement for advancement, sometimes. "At least they know how to code FizzBuzz". Some of them interpret very high performance as a good signal, some of them only needed a check that a person knows how to use programming syntax correctly in 45 minutes.

[summer roost]

yes, they expect candidates to be able to successfully answer the questions asked in the interview

[late flame]

The hardest leetcode questions are still expected to be solved in an hour. Give unlimited time and resources to someone and of course they can finish it. The stuff that's actually hard to do takes weeks or months of concerted effort, not an hour or two

[vapid jay]

I agree. Give infinite time to Student A and they will become Donald Knuth by living Donald's life 100 times until they do as well

My take away from this is "worry about getting a job because when you haven't had any.. you'll be told to go get a job first to sit at the adults' table".

[summer roost]

the flaw in your logic is a pretty simple one, actually. You're assuming that, because companies want people with quality X, that it must be beneficial to state on your resume that you have quality X. As an obvious counter example, companies would prefer to hire people who aren't addicted to heroin. If your resume has a bullet point saying "I am not a heroin addict", that would not be a positive signal.

[vapid jay]

?!
They don't do tests for heroin though. They do tests for LeetCode, sometimes. Are they really the same when you think about it deeply? Are the two things really equatable in your view?

[vapid jay]

Check for LeetCode -> highlight LeetCode = good

No check for heroin -> highlighting no heroin additions = bad

you make this logical connection for real? The inversion of that is ok logically for you?

[azure heart]

All of this boils down to that it's not such a black and white answer whether or not you should include your leetcode profile

It depends on you, it depends on the recruiter, it depends on the positions, etc

[vapid jay]

I agree. But I heard "it's a terrible idea" here, which I apposed

[azure heart]

If you're applying for your first job and don't have much to show, then I think it would be wise to include it if you're proud of your accomplishment with it

[vapid jay]

Everything depends, I agree. IT repairs and LeetCode: no connection.

[azure heart]

To a recruiter, you're only as strong as your weakest link

if you show them great stuff but then they look at your weak leetcode profile, that might dissuade

[vapid jay]

My opinion too. You might still want to include it if, say, you were so good at it that it'd be a cool thing about you...

[azure heart]

If you're happy with it, then I don't see any harm with including it

[smoky quest]

yeah... no.
If you only have leetcode to put on your resume, you have something bigger to worry about.
It also signals you are optimizing for the wrong metric and thus missed the point.

So it ends up being a negative signal

[azure heart]

Oh, yeah I'm not saying only go in with leetcode

but if you're coming up just short of a well rounded portfolio and the window on a job you want is closing, then throw your leetcode on there to pad it out and swing for the fences

[digital fjord]

The thing to keep in mind about leetcode is that it is the default that you can at least competently approach, ideally solve, the leetcode problem you get in the interview. You are saying "I can meet the minimum bar", except of course that is tested in the interview, with a leetcode problem, anyway, so you aren't really saying much at all. If you were good at the style of problems leetcode poses, you would probably be using codeforces/project euler et al.

[vapid jay]

"I am a competitive baseball player". Ok. Not a terrible idea. I am very good at LeetCode. Certainly not a terrible idea. A reasonable person would just say "ok, I took it too far, I postured.. it's bad advice. I'll be more careful next time not to make these statements"

[zealous path]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d say personal projects are worth 1000x more than online tests

[smoky quest]

That would still be a negative.
It would be far better to not put it and to come strong on the interview

[old berry]

You tailor your CV to your experience and the position you're going for right.

If you're just starting out and applying for a junior role, you might write a paragraph about your studies in school and maybe another boasting that you've done plenty of leetcode and have written these 2 great projects that do this and that.

Once you've landed that first job, the next time you update your cv for the next job, a lot of that stuff won't matter as the work experience is the only important thing. So you shrink your study paragraph down to 2 lines. Your hobbies/out of work stuff is a smaller paragraph and your current job section is the big noise then.

Etc etc.

[vapid jay]

I agree that it is a minimum bar.

[summer roost]

they absolutely do tests for heroin.

[azure heart]

I guess to clarify, are we talking specifically about "leetcode" or are we using this as a catch-all for "challenge sites"?

[vapid jay]

But in conclusion there is still much to learn about Careers here, for me. The world has people out there who dislike something, are involved in hiring and consider it a "terrible idea" to put on display something they disagree with. They will be making career decisions affecting others and they will have no interest in a delicate view on something. They'll push, assert themselves and thus crush diversity of preference. It's a danger one has to be aware of.

[vapid jay]

Any, really. I don't even do LeetCode myself. Just Euler.

[summer roost]

there's no inversion.

• companies check whether you have heroin in your system with a drug test before hiring you. Saying on your resume that you will pass the drug test will not impress your interviewers, and will make them less likely to hire you.
• companies check whether you can implement LeetCode style programs with coding challenges before hiring you. Saying on your resume that you practice LeetCode every day will not impress your interviewers, and will make them less likely to hire you.

[smoky quest]

the original question was specifically about leetcode profiles

[vapid jay]

I am arguing in favour of an excellent (or just great?) LeetCode profile. Not trying every day. I could try every day and fail every day.. that can't be good in itself.

Anyway, thanks for this. I know more about the dangers out there now.

[summer roost]

did you read the resume before responding about it?

[azure heart]

If I may offer a parallel perspective...I used to be a professional animator. Everyone in school learns how to do walk cycles, so naturally, a lot of students end up with walk cycles on their demo reel. This does not help you stand out whatsoever. A walk cycle is the minimum you should have, and it's something so common in animation that it can be incredibly scrutinized for every tiny detail. If you have a walk cycle on your reel, it better be the best damn walk cycle anyone has ever seen. You're better off showing off something perhaps "lesser" but shows creative thought instead.

[old berry]

I think if you're a junior positioning yourself to apply for your first role, it wouldn't hurt adding something about doing code challenges on your cv.

It shows some form of initiative. You're making an effort in your free time to improve yourself by actively coding. You're practicing basically.

Is it the best thing you can be doing? No. But I don't think it would hurt or be a negative to add it.

[vapid jay]

Seems logical!

[digital fjord]

I would avoid any challenge sites on a resume, if you are so good at algorithms that you can get an impressive profile there, you can probably get the job in another way as well. Leetcode is IMO especially bad, since it makes it look like you are trying too hard to pass the interview, rather than be qualified for the job.

[vapid jay]

I agree with this.

[summer roost]

The resume that started this conversation had these bullet points:

• Solve problems on LeetCode every day
  • It improves my code optimization, problem solving, and creativity skills
  • I have learned a lot about different data structures and algorithms

That's the context for this conversation.

[gilded valley]

yes - it is the other people who are in the wrong, not you at all, their reasons boil down to dislike. all of the things carefully and patiently explained are irrelevant

[smoky quest]

It has actually been a great signal to ignore candidates with leetcode on their resume.
People who put leetcode/codeforce/hackerank on their resume would typically focus on the wrong thing and do badly in the actual interview

[summer roost]

unironically, this is actually a useful lesson for you to learn.

[old berry]

Yeah I mean... If that person is applying for a junior position and has no prior work experience, then I don't think that can really hurt.

Just be sure that you can back it up by talking around it if a question is raised in the interview.

[summer roost]

are you saying that as someone who has done resume screenings in the past?

[vapid jay]

When I asked you "which ideas of mine are of low quality", open to hear about them you said "I won't engage further". Then you decide to engage further and say this. This is actually funny, not sarcastically so.

[smoky quest]

Use the space for describing your projects or internship better

[vapid jay]

I agree

[digital fjord]

Even if you do actually enjoy the problem solving process, the optics will always be kind of bad - just write a geometry library/regex library/SAT solver/whatever if you want to show off you are good at DSA stuff.

[azure heart]

To add to this, they might be screening 100s of resumes, so even the smallest hit against you can lose you your chance

They say recruiters take half the resumes and throw them in the trash right away. You don't want to hire someone unlucky.

[old berry]

As I said above, it's not the best thing you can do, as a project as you rightly say would be better.

But if it's all you have, then you boast about it.

You shouldn't shut yourself off from applying to things because you don't have a github profile with 300 projects written and ready to talk about at the same time.

[summer roost]

but it's not even a good boast...

[azure heart]

some people are desperate for a job though and just have to apply with anything they have

[vapid jay]

Writing a RegEx library is a better idea? Do you think that such library might be useful at all? If so, how so? If not and both LeetCode and this would be useful.. why a very narrow use of algorithms, like FSA, and not a more varied gym of algorithms like LeetCode? This is an interesting take, that a RegEx library would be worth more, not less. Does the world need a worse-implemented RegEx library at all?

[smoky quest]

This is just a performative metric.
Like the number of stars it doesn't mean anything.

Nothing would ensure me they haven't cheated. And since they are so good, then I should be able to ask them to solve a few hard leetcode in the same time interval and explain them to me.
But that would be ignoring the negative signal it sends in the first place

[azure heart]

some people can't take the 2 months to develop another project to apply with

[old berry]

I've only ever looked at a small handful. But as I said, it really depends on the role you're hiring for right.

If someone has nothing other than leetcode stuff, I'd be expecting them to be fresh out of college/uni (or probably self taught) and looking for a junior role.

[vapid jay]

Of course, I agree.

[digital fjord]

because it shows you actually like algorithms, rather than effectively "Everyday, I practice the bare minimum questions we use on the interview to filter out if you can even write code at all"

[vapid jay]

Nobody said "bare minimum", right?

Also: if you like algorithms.. maybe you like a varied test harness than "just the algos for regex", no?

Strange take.

I do LeetCode and therefore I do the bare minimum is also a very strange take, without anybody saying "we do the bare minimum".

Strange.

[smoky quest]

algorithms are the bare minimum.
That's also a reason why focusing on CP/DSA doesn't show the full picture about a person and why projects are preferred.
Projects can demonstrate a wider array of skills and interests.

[summer roost]

I'm genuinely shocked that someone who has done any hiring would have any positive feedback about those 3 bullets. "Solve problems on LeetCode every day" isn't grammatically correct, and only says that you practice every day at something that others might not need to practice on at all. That's not a pro, that's a con. And the other two bullets, "It improves my code optimization, problem solving, and creativity skills" and "I have learned a lot about different data structures and algorithms", are at least grammatically correct, but they're stressing weaknesses about the candidate, not strengths.

[vapid jay]

@smoky quest my friend I am not expanding so..

[vapid jay]

Grammatically correct is not the point. Putting that in ChatGPT would fix it.

[smoky quest]

Let's not use words we don't mean. You definitely do not consider me as a friend 😉
Also, I don't mind

[summer roost]

ok, but they didn't. They say they applied to 1000 jobs with that resume.

[gilded valley]

or compete and do well in things like ICPC

[vapid jay]

I can TOTALLY understand why they applied 1000s of times. TOTALLY. My heart is with them TOTALLY. Why would they not!!

[summer roost]

I can totally understand why they were rejected 1000 times. I'm 100% sure they could do a better job of selling themselves than essentially outright stating that they study every day and still can't get hired.

[harsh river]

imagine all 1000s apps got rejected because of gramatical error (totally automated by filters a company might have) and just flexing leetcode

[vapid jay]

Alright. Take care. I will do one more Project Euler exercise to them put on my CV 🙂

[digital fjord]

oh sure, you may find more fun in leetcode or STH, but resumes are not about what you find fun, they are about what makes you look good. And the reasonable assumption for people who practice leetcode everyday is that leetcode problems are difficult, which is a bad look if the company uses leetcode and similar problems as the bare minimum bar.

[old berry]

To be clear, I haven't done any hiring 😅 just looking at and passing on a handful of cvs.

I also wasn't looking at the grammar or what have you - was just coming at it from the angle of having those things on a junior cv I don't think is a negative.

It states that you're willing to practice in your own time to improve yourself. Now of course you could be talking bollocks, but I'd clarify that when I question you about those things during interview. You have to be able to back up anything you write.

[vapid jay]

Grammar should be fixed, of course. But we were discussing something else. Who would argue in favour of bad grammar in a CV? A post-modern dadaism nut?

[summer roost]

telling someone that it's good advice to stress their weaknesses and their effort over their accomplishments is absolutely going to hurt them, @vapid jay.

[vapid jay]

No I think people should fix their grammar, one way or another. I never said "keep the bad grammar". I'd be a little nutty to think that

[summer roost]

I'm not talking about the grammar, I'm talking about the content of the bullets.

[vapid jay]

Fixing grammar is good advice. Let us all, myself included, fix our grammars

[digital fjord]

regex library was admittedly not the best example, unless you start doing some of the cool opts that are in real-world engines.

[vapid jay]

They could be improved by a compelling LeetCode profile, in my opinion. Just an opinion. Another opinion from @smoky quest is that that would be a "terrible idea". I love a diversity of opinions, however wacky they may sound.

[smoky quest]

a regex library would be so cool in a resume. So far ahead of the generic mnist or student project.
There would be so much to talk about

[vapid jay]

Good. A reasonable person knows when to backtrack. I respect that a lot. Clearly a rare skill.

[old berry]

I think you're right in that the wording of those points could be improved.

I just disagree that having them there at all is a negative. I think absolutely talk about it if you're new and starting out.

[vapid jay]

See ya

[smoky quest]

still waiting on what back ups your claims and enables you to question others

[summer roost]

I agree with you that a compelling LeetCode profile would be much better than those bullets. I also agree with @smoky quest that linking to a LeetCode profile makes you look inexperienced and weak compared to other candidates, and takes up valuable space on the resume that could be used for demonstrating more relevant skills.

[zealous path]

Again: if you have the space for this LeetCode stuff on your CV, you can remove it and make space for a project.

[harsh river]

https://discordapp.com/channels/267624335836053506/470889390588035082/1143442036654080034

[old berry]

Don't disagree with this either.

But at the same time, you shouldn't gatekeep yourself out of applying for things just because you don't have the project.

Start applying, work on a project in the background and bolster your cv as you go.

[summer roost]

"I try very hard", "I practice every day", "I study 20 hours a week", "I have applied to thousands of jobs", etc, are not good things for a candidate to say on a resume. They make that candidate look weak and inexperienced compared to candidates who don't say those things.

[zealous path]

I’ll agree with this. Time is money and the earlier you have a job the better.

[smoky quest]

For context, people in my network who work at faang and other high level companies do not study leetcode every day. They may not study at all or just like ~2-3 weeks prior to the first interview to get back on the saddle.
The idea they are difficult is foreign to this world.

[old berry]

https://tenor.com/view/handshake-whats-up-friends-sup-shake-on-it-gif-15681265

[smoky quest]

The main thing is to learn DSA, not memorize leetcode questions.
Once the student realizes that, things go much smoother

[summer roost]

it honestly seems like you're having a bit of a different assumption than @smoky quest and I. You're assuming that the best thing this candidate can say about themselves is that they've solved many LeetCode problems. We're assuming that this is one of the least interesting things about them, and that it wouldn't take much work for them to be able to make a much more compelling case for themselves than by highlighting the amount of effort they put into studying.

[azure heart]

I don't think anyone is saying this is the best thing

[summer roost]

well, one of the best things, then.

[old berry]

Yeah I'm looking at it from a bigger picture point of view rather than this particular individual, sorry.

[summer roost]

A resume is a one-page highlight reel.

[azure heart]

I think if you have a list of projects/accomplishments and you've also included leetcode problems, then that shouldn't be an issue

[near ocean]

Go get a decent rating on codeforces or something, then you can say that

Or if youre doing the leetcode comps then you can mention that

[harsh river]

you'd have to be on leetcodes global or top 100 leaderboard for at the very least

otherwise not worth

[summer roost]

I do agree with you that people shouldn't "gatekeep themselves" out of a job. And I do agree that linking to a LeetCode profile with a lot of problems solved is probably a positive signal, albeit a weak one. I think that stating in a bullet that you practice LeetCode often is a strong negative signal - one that indicates that you don't understand what the people reviewing the resume will care about, and possibly don't understand the entire point of a resume.

[smoky quest]

I would still contend that if you have space to put something about leetcode, then you have space to put something more interesting and relevant to the job

[azure heart]

I guess to say it's "neutral" at best, and why would you put something neutral on a resume?

[smoky quest]

given that some resumes get rejected by the mere mention of it, I wouldn't call it neutral.
Just less incentives to put it on

[azure heart]

Even for juniors/first job in the industry?

[near ocean]

That sounds petty

[smoky quest]

yeah

[azure heart]

I really think it has to depend on the job

[summer roost]

a resume should be stressing results, not effort. Having bullets that essentially say that you put in a lot of effort, but don't mention anything about results, makes for a very weak resume: it makes it seem like the best thing you can say about yourself is that you try very hard to achieve the same results as others. It makes you seem less competent.

[smoky quest]

you would still run the chance to get rejected because of it. Not worth it.

At best, it signals you aren't bad at DSA, for which you are gonna be tested anyway. At worse, you get rejected. So why even take a chance?

And any entry level engineer should have some interesting projects on their resume. There are many cool algo related projects at school

[digital fjord]

Here's an interesting one: good leetcode profile vs. the generic hashtable in C most uni programs have you write?

[old berry]

On the flip side though, you could have a cv that says they've done a project which is let's say a discord bot. They may not go into too much detail.

At an interview, that project or result could just be as simple as a load of if/else statements whereas the leetcoder has dabbled in all sorts of different challenges.

It's not really black and white. That's kind of the issue with the whole hiring process. It's all a bit of a gamble and it kinda is for both parties really.

[azure heart]

Plus not all jobs are 100% programming. Something else that shows you're stronger in programming coming into the job would be a benefit

[zealous path]

People here are also forgetting that the CV doesn’t get you the job, it gets you the interview. So as long as you can seem interesting enough there, the next step is to be smart enough to answer the questions

[smoky quest]

a good leetcode profile doesn't teach me anything. They could have cheated, or they could just fail anyway again.
It doesn't tell me if they memorized the problems or learned DSA as well.

It also shows me they are optimizing for the interview and not the job. So they could very well have bad code practice.
And does that mean, since they are good, that I can ask them to solve a few hard LC questions during the interview?

There aren't strong incentives from either side to put it on a resume instead of something else more relevant.

[zealous path]

Absolutely ^^^ sometimes it’s more of “are you logical” than “can you code”

[digital fjord]

Makes sense

[summer roost]

Yes, but LeetCode problems do a very poor job of proving that, because the toy DS&A problems on LeetCode are quite unlike the day to day work that a programmer is likely to do at the job, and something like a Discord bot might be much closer to the skills the job requires on an average day, assuming they've maintained it over time, extended it with new features that weren't considered in the initial implementation, reacted to feedback from other people who used it, etc.

[smoky quest]

As a side note, one thing that get people attention are resumes that sweat passion and energy.
I would 1000x more times call back someone that has such resume than someone who optimizes for codeforce/leetcode and has certificates and bootcamps

[azure heart]

Ok so the issue specifically is "leetcode" problems

what if someone had a bunch of advent of code challenges?

would that be worth putting?

[summer roost]

no, they're the same thing

[smoky quest]

No interviewer would spend the time looking them up

Your resume will have a yay or nay within 30-45s, one way or the other

[summer roost]

by "leetcode problems", I mean to say small, self-contained problems focused on data structures or algorithms, without regard to the website they came from

[azure heart]

but if I had a full github repo nice and organized with 25 advent of code challenges, I think that would go a long way to show code structure/organization

It's definitely better than not having that

[smoky quest]

Your resume will have a yay or nay within 30-45s, one way or the other

Folks may look at it later or if they are really on the fence and have more time. But don't count on it as a rule of thumb

[azure heart]

What if a recruiter was kind of on the fence and then came across that you had done this as well

[summer roost]

it really doesn't, I think. Since those problems are each self-contained, there's no overarching structure or organization, nor any demonstration of modeling skills. They won't have CI/CD, or things like that, either.

[azure heart]

oh haha that's what you just wrote