career-advice

[vapid jay]

Thank u

[lilac quail]

ETL is Extract Transform Load. Basically asking for xp in testing ETL pipelines

ETL is sort of a catch-all word to describe all pipelines (automated scripts) that will take data somewhere, transform it somehow, and dump it elsewhere for other users or tools

[sour tartan]

it's just a server icon, you will be ok

[midnight oyster]

I’m Homophobic sorry

[sour tartan]

admitting you have a problem is the first step.

[kind marsh]

Alright, then we ask you keep your opinion to yourself. Also, this has absolutely nothing to do with career discussion

[midnight oyster]

It’s effective

[sour tartan]

i don't know what that means. This server welcomes all, and is proud to be vocal about welcoming marginalized groups. If that's a problem for you, you don't have to stay.

[midnight oyster]

This logo is disrespectful for me

[sour tartan]

you don't have to stay here if you don't like the logo.

[nocturne moss]

I am paying a person for a python script ME DM

[polar basin]

!rule 6
Please don't advertise here.

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[midnight oyster]

Old man go enjoy your life you don’t have to be in python community

[sour tartan]

I don't think you understand this server.

[midnight oyster]

Are you 70 ?

[polar basin]

!ban 511211034359496707 1D It seems you don't belong here. reread the #rules before rejoining

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @midnight oyster until <t:1686224894:f> (1 day).

[bleak spoke]

what does a software engineer actually do?

[true harness]

engineer software

[polar basin]

Engineer software :D

A lot of it is design rather than code (although that may depend on the company and what level you are)

My current task is digging through CI failures and identifying why they're breaking, then trying to work out what needs to be done to fix them.

[rough ridge]

easy, try: ...

[polar basin]

error: expected expression before ‘...’ token

[true harness]

surely that's not a real error

[dense fiber]

wheres my except

[empty kestrel]

Alas, I've incredible IT startup idea. Havent found anyone to invest on my under-rated idea!
It will dominate the world!

[hearty island]

no one in my entire team knows power bi … they’re calling me a SME 😭😭😭

lord what have i signed up for

interns can’t be SMEs, they’re literally interns

[hearty island]

unless my entire team has a different definition of SME

[sour tartan]

do you know more about it that anyone else there? Then you are the closest they have to an SME

[hearty island]

i guess so

the good news is that i’m 22% of the way through my CAPM cert 🙂 … which means i’m that much closer to securing better project management jobs and having more knowledge

[silver jacinth]

Software developers are told what to code, engineers come up with the plans and tell them what to code while coding.

[buoyant seal]

and my current task: i configure for our CI pipeline datadog ci flaky test gathering. Hopefully it will simplify our other devs why the CI tests are failing

some kind of annoying little bug is present. for some reason only data of 5 tests out of 5000 tests is sent 😦

[polar basin]

It was. That's what gcc gave me when I tried vivax' suggestion ;)

[dreamy spade]

Why would Python be needed for that? It sounds like mySQL is perfect for ETL.

[near ocean]

developer and engineer in the context of software mean the same thing

[true harness]

it's commonly said that there are some places where "engineer" is protected, but I don't actually know any places that do that

[true harness]

a database might be one part of a pipeline, it wouldn't be the pipeline itself

[gritty rivet]

Germany is famously strict on that, I'm guessing some other European countries may be. But here in the US, an engineer is anybody HR feels like calling an engineer

[crisp stream]

IIRC, Canada requires you to be licensed with a regulator? if you want to be called a software engineer

[near ocean]

from what I can find, for Germany specifically, you can't use the german word for engineer without accreditation, but the english word is free game
ie you can call yourself a software engineer

[vapid jay]

here in Brazil you need a academic diplom too, but some jobs accepts other formations

[true harness]

do people do that though? surely you would market yourself as the German word for engineer in Germany

[near ocean]

🤷‍♂️ to do the german word (Ingenieur) you need to be accredited by the state and whatnot, if youre a civil engineer ofc you would go through the tests

but if youre some mid webdev 💀 then why bother

[wanton birch]

I thought ingenieur was the French word for it

[near ocean]

they all sound alike to me

[true harness]

it's all French or German to me

[lilac quail]

Yeah, it is

[lilac quail]

As previously stated, a MySQL database can be a component of an ETL pipeline, but it cannot serve as the sole element. Consider a straightforward ETL pipeline incorporating a MySQL database, such as a commercial website where the backend is powered by MySQL. The stakeholders in such a business would likely want insights into database activities that correlate with customer events. This is where the expertise of a DE comes into play.
The DE would be asked to implement an ETL pipeline to extract data from the MySQL database, clean it of irrelevant information (like bot activity or tracker data), and load it into a data analysis tool like Google's BigQuery or Amazon's Athena. And that's how you simply become data-driven for such a small business, for example

[lilac quail]

Yeah, that's the french system. Engineer is a special status

[true harness]

we're a 🤩 data driven 🤩 company using 🤩 AI 🤩 to power our business decisions

[lilac quail]

buzzwords yeah 😄

[wanton birch]

I think they should write stuff like "We are a profit driver company. That much is obvious when you are a business. Now! Please tell us how you can help us potentially make even more profit than we corrently do."

[true harness]

with data, duh

[silver jacinth]

Big data

Harvest data from your parents and friends

[wanton birch]

Also check this mechatronics job advert:

[near ocean]

Cultivating tenderness? This isnt a knitting club grandma, give me numbers already

[wanton birch]

They gave you some numbers. You shouldn't be working just 9-5.

[silver jacinth]

I don't care about any company I work for

If it's 9-5 I won't respond after that or before work

[hearty island]

same

[wanton birch]

That's because you don't want to be "an amazing human being with self awareness"

[silver jacinth]

I guess I'm evil

Even if you pay me 200k on call I'll refuse it for an easy 9-5 and then not work after that

[true harness]

that doesn't sound fun

[silver jacinth]

I value my time

[wanton birch]

From their requirements:

Responsibilities

Design hardware components and systems (e.g. fluidics, refrigeration)
Build a responsive and scalable User Interface for our station's touchscreen (QT)
Design electronic/electrical components and systems (e.g. PCB)
Rapid prototyping of concepts as well as bringing product to commercialization
Build and execute test plans```

Is it me or does it sound like they are looking for one guy who will literally do it all for them?

[silver jacinth]

Engineering+ testing + embed programming + cad

[wanton birch]

Mechanical engineer, front end dev, electronics engineer, manufacturing engineer, validation and test engineer....

[silver jacinth]

4 jobs for 1 salary

An easy job now would just be doing one of those

[wanton birch]

Wait there's more!

These Assets Will Help

Familiar with controlling pump, solenoid, and fluidics systems (strong asset)
Experience AWS IOT
Experience with SQL Databases
Familiar with Raspberry Pi Module
Understanding of materials, plastic and metal production processes
Strong asset if you have experience with fluidics, beverage, and/or refrigeration/HVAC```

[silver jacinth]

So they want someone with no life

[wanton birch]

If I could actually do all that by myself in any meaninful capacity, I'd honestly be running my own one man company.

[silver jacinth]

Exactly

But now most jobs are like this

[hearty island]

wear multiple hats 🙂

[deft herald]

Forgot about UX

wow that's crazy. Though honestly sounds like a fun product to work on

[lilac quail]

I'd chat with the company, it sounds like they want an Engineer with good business knowledge (HVAC and stuff) and that touches all the technologies mentioned. I would question the 'Build an UI' part: I guess they want to say you would get responsibilities linked to building that UI - but not build it yourself. For the rest I'm not really surprised. Job offer are always asking for 150% of the actual position.

[lilac quail]

It can be a pain I agree, but in my own experience, those periods are always the ones where you grow the most. Even when it's negative and it turns out you don't like some or all the hats they want you to wear, at least you grow from this and you can put behind you some fields or jobs that you thought you'd like, but you actually don't.

[wanton birch]

I applied anyway. If they respond, I'll at least get interview practice out of it.

[wanton birch]

Multiple hats isn't an issue. I naturally am into all sorts of things. If your vacuum cleaner isn't working, I'll happily help you diagnose what is wrong and try to fix it with you. But will you recognise that I am no vacuum cleaner expert and adjust your expectations accordingly?

[spark cobalt]

I love my intern

Not like romantically

He's a mad hustler, getting way ahead of the other interns already

[true harness]

you have multiple?

[spark cobalt]

No I only have one, but I talk to the other interns too cuz we're all the same age (we have lunch together)

And also because the other interns mentors are Lowkey neglecting them. Was the only mentor that came to office yesterday lmfao

[true harness]

pit them against each other so they 📈

[true harness]

lol same. I had a 10 minute meeting 2 weeks ago and that's it

[spark cobalt]

I spent like 6 hours yesterday doing a really deep rundown of everything. And then he was able to go through a ticket by himself after that

The other interns don't even know what they're doing yet

I had to bitch so much to the higher ups to give him GitHub access early, was so much shit to do

[brazen island]

All we have is master thesis students that embody the exact opposite of being hustlers 😦

[true harness]

gotta figure that out before their first day

[spark cobalt]

Nah there's a whole onboarding pipeline process that takes about a week. I wanted him to get on ASAP (were on the 3rd day of the internship today)

He somehow managed to finish the entire onboarding process in one day so was like fuck it

[brazen island]

Like, it's to the point where we need to strategically think if we're still gonna do internships and master theses.

In the past year we've spent way more time (10 x factor) coaching than getting value out of both. Imo that's perfectly fine because internships and theses are primarily a learning experience for them but my higher ups don't agree, but them on mission critical stuff and then let me clean up the mess 😉

[spark cobalt]

Yeah I completely get that. My other colleagues still don't get doing internships either because ultimately, by the time they can even do anything meaningful, their internship is over.

[wanton birch]

So why not hire people who are just above that internship level?

[spark cobalt]

That would be just hiring full time no?

[brazen island]

Imo this is totally OK. I did a bunch of internships too and I had experienced people teach me so much. Internships are something you do to give back to society (and potentially an extended onboarding period)

[spark cobalt]

Yeah afaik, internships are a way to ease the hiring process with people that have verifiable impact and grit. After all, it's hard to judge a bunch of freshers unless you've worked with them before

[wanton birch]

FT/PT I don't care. If you are looking for more than an intern level deal, why not hire based on that criteria instead of having these hopes and dreams about interns.

[brazen island]

Caveat is that internships in Belgium are unpaid so there shouldn't be an expectation either that someone that is there for free will do anything relevant. That being said, the thesis students we've had just show 0 initiative or are just a bit ... weak?

[spark cobalt]

Every hire is a risk. But interns are cheap, there's a lot of processes and systems that exist to really easily get interns (meaning cheaper), etc.

[lilac quail]

Might depend on the countries laws, but interns are also basically very cheap and free of taxes labor. With the benefit of finding some gems that you hire later, as a company.

[wanton birch]

Well! If you want it cheap, you get cheap.

[spark cobalt]

They are cheap because they're generally not people equipped to work full time in any position

[brazen island]

It works two ways, as an intern imo you shouldn't feel obliged to deliver max value

[spark cobalt]

It's just their market value. No one's paying 200k for an intern just because they want the best.

Again, there's a lot of risk into internships

[wanton birch]

Please let me know usual rates for interns and entry

[spark cobalt]

At my company I think entry gets 125-150k, interns get 60k...? Not 100% sure about the intern part

[lilac quail]

I think internships and apprenticeships are the way to go for many people. It should be pushed even more than regular academic studies.

[wanton birch]

I wonder if some sort of a tax break could help in this situation. This is straight out of my arse but I was thinking what if we gave tax breaks to companies for hiring new grads and such.

[wanton birch]

Holy shit! What do you guys build? 150k for entry level?

[spark cobalt]

That's pretty standard in the Bay

[wanton birch]

That's like 3 people's annual salary my man!

[peak halo]

It all gets sucked up by their CoL

[lilac quail]

It's better to look at what the company is actually paying for you, with added taxes. Sometimes there is a factor of 2.

[spark cobalt]

Maybe, I haven't calculated it all

[brazen island]

The biggest mistake we made is that in the beginning of this year my team lead got interns to build a web app. My guy 100 % judged their product on the basis of it looking pretty. 2 weeks after they delivered their "product" I had to put the ML algos in it and we presented our work at a kind of conference with the people that fund us.

The code was a single file and contained things like positive_number = int(negative_number[1:3]). Never worked so much in the span of 2 weeks to get something back on the rails.

[spark cobalt]

Anyways off to work. Cya guys

[pastel thunder]

do you have an opening, currently😀 ? Also is WFH available?

[wanton birch]

Don't you guys have reviews?

[smoky quest]

your compensation would be based on your location, not the company's HQ

but yeah, that's the standard in the bay area. And no, that is not sucked out by the cost of living

[wanton birch]

@smoky quest Where are you based?

[pastel thunder]

i might sound materialistic but i think if i get more offer at some place but the standard of living will remain same, i would prefer to take the offer.

[true harness]

internships let you train someone on your company's tools for much less than what you'd pay for a real dev

[spark cobalt]

Just depends on your lifestyle. My yearly expenses are 20% of my salary and I pay for everything (rent, insurance, yada yada)

[wanton birch]

I just wish that option was open to me. I don't mind taking a lower pay to just get to work and learn. But all these things seem only for current students.

[spark cobalt]

But, generally people like to increase the cost of their lifestyle according to their salary, which can be a good thing but at least in what I've seen, a good amount of bad things as well

[brazen island]

If it's an internship the value is in the name of the company and also what you'll learn there imo but moreso the latter

[spark cobalt]

I work at a startup, so for my intern it's mostly about how much impact he's able to provide

[true harness]

it's the closest a student is going to get to actually being a dev. that's invaluable imo

[wanton birch]

I thought someone had to go back to work

[spark cobalt]

He's in some corporate HR meeting right now, I can go in a bit

[brazen island]

I'm talking from the intern's perspective but either way, if you're looking for people to make an impact and not just do more of the same as in school then it's already a good sign

[lilac quail]

Haha that's the real perks of management

[spark cobalt]

I only go in office for the intern. I generally do a lot of my work at the evening and night because that's when I'm the most productive

[spark cobalt]

Nah not a manager, just a SWE

[smoky quest]

if you aren't a student, then there is no point to an internship for you

[balmy mural]

I don't know the relevant laws and whatnot, but my company does get tax breaks or financial incentives by showing some metrics that they are training up new graduates every year

[wanton birch]

Really?!? So where am I supposed to get the work experience for entry level jobs then?

[smoky quest]

• There is a reason CS degrees and education in general are so valuable
• Entry level jobs do not require experience by definition

[wanton birch]

That's nice. That is exactly what I wanted. Maybe we need to set a baseline first to stop abuse. We need to find the average in the industry (avg number of new grads being trained). Then we do the tax break thing based on how much more than that a company is doing.

[wanton birch]

Entry level jobs do not require experience? When was the last time you've actually looked up entry level jobs?

[smoky quest]

last week when someone thought entry level jobs did require experience

[spark cobalt]

Manipulating the market almost always has an unintended side effect.

[true harness]

entry level jobs "require" experience

[wanton birch]

I don't believe you. I've been hunting for about a year. Applying even for internships at times. Even internships sometimes comes with experience requirements.

[balmy mural]

6 months ago when I applied to jobs and got one. Tons of entry level jobs don't require experience

[spark cobalt]

For entry level positions, generally you're able to alleviate whatever experience they ask for with some degree of education, an outstanding portfolio, etc.

[true harness]

if entry level jobs require experience, how will people get experience? (answer: entry level jobs don't require experience)

[smoky quest]

I would bet there is a confusion here between:

• proving you won't be a dead weight and be comparable to someone who graduated
• the company requiring X years of experience

You are most likely having issues due to the first point

[spark cobalt]

They want experience to hire a junior developer at an entry level rate. In practice, I don't think this is a common theme where a junior engineer would want to be knowingly paid less than what they're worth

[wanton birch]

That's not unlikely. The rate of failure does strongly indicate very low trust from the market.

Sometimes I wonder if it might be more feasible to start a third world software sweatshop and just run the first world front end here and make a living that way.

[true harness]

the interesting part is that you have a MechE PhD. there shouldn't be any issue convincing people to trust you to handle entry level work

[summer roost]

Entry level jobs are, by definition, the jobs that the least skilled people are given when they enter an industry. They, by definition, cannot require previous work in that industry. Any job that requires previous experience is by definition not entry level.

[wanton birch]

That's what almost everyone keeps telling me. Makes it a lot more embarrassing really. I was temping at this college and met another temping guy. He finished his PhD in Electronics Engineering last year and is in the same situation as me. Nobody even gets back. Only when its random hourly low pay gigs.

[brazen island]

Can I be honest and say that your pessimistic disposition probably makes it harder to get hired?

[wanton birch]

I am not functionally pessimistic. For example, I spend hours per job application and tailor them to make it as good as I can. I apply every single day and try to do 5-10 applications per day that are high quality. I've far exceeded hundreds by now and I didn't do that out of pessimism. I even started learning Data Science and Machine Learning stuff on the side to learn new things with the hope that I might benefit from it. A pessimist Aerospace guy wouldn't dare try their luck out in the SWE world on the side.

But I am curious. What made you think I was pessimistic. I am not saying I am not. Just curious!

[smoky quest]

Can you remind me what your resume look like? Feel free to post an anonymized version.

Also are you in the USA?

[dreamy shadow]

Did you showcase your anonymized resume here?

I would spend no more than 10-20minutes per application. If you have a generic cover letter, then added it. If not, speed run through applications. It's basically about numbers.

[gritty rivet]

If you're not getting at least an interview per week like that, your resume needs work, or maybe you're not applying for the right positions. (Based on my experience in the US anyway)

[smoky quest]

found it in the message history

[smoky quest]

you have a mechanical eng resume, not a software engineer resume.
No one will reply to that

[gritty rivet]

Have you found other people who have made a transition like yours successfully? If not, check LinkedIn. Such a person may have the best advice

[smoky quest]

When someone review your resume for a software engineer position, your resume should appeal to them as a software engineer.
If you send them your resume as it is here, they will be confused because it's the resume of a mec eng.

[brave matrix]

dude if you spend hours on a single job application its gonna take you like 10 years until you get a job offer,
you shouldnt be spending more than 10 minutes on each job application imo

[wanton birch]

This is the engineering variant. The tech variant emphasises more software related stuff. I am trying to make that now.

[dreamy shadow]

#career-advice message 😭

[brave matrix]

for my first 150 applications or so, almost nobody responded 😦

[wanton birch]

Well! On top of customising the CV further, the cover letter stuff takes up some time. Looking into the company details and thinking up how to market myself to them. All of that takes time.

[smoky quest]

you could try to shop it to more embedded positions, that would still not be the ideal resume though, but that would be closer than the typical software eng role

[wanton birch]

So far I got 4 responses. One is a college for proctoring exams. Two were big shots. One of these two ghosted me saying they decided to only hire from QC even though the job was advertised remote.

[floral topaz]

Is it allowed to share links to some of the things you’re applying for, to give context?

[gritty rivet]

But I think what people are generally saying here is it's very likely a waste of time when it comes to cover letters. Almost nobody reads them anymore

[brave matrix]

ofc it takes time, but keep in mind that most companies wont even look at your resume, so dont waste too much time one them. also I'm not sure how useful a cover letter is.
personally, I think that if the company is down to earth, they wont even ask you for it because its a waste of time, and if they really want to know why you are "so motivated to be part of their team" they will actually call you and speak face to face, not a one sided letter that in most cases it just ignored and never answered.

[wanton birch]

I'd love embedded system stuff but those jobs typically come with a much longer list of things I know little about. Half the time they expect me to design, test and fabricate them PCBs on top of other stuff lol

[smoky quest]

cover letters can be useful to get you over the finish line or if there is some doubt.
So in the case of @wanton birch , they could definitely help.

But I wouldn't spend hours on them

[smoky quest]

not all embedded jobs have these requirements. There are quite a few that are more focused on the software side

[wanton birch]

Thanks for bringing it up. I will try my luck there too. If I can avoid cover letters, I should be able to easily add them to my daily list of applications. I am so tired, man! Both literally and metaphorically.

[smoky quest]

yeah it's tough.
That's why folks need also to be aware of the survivorship bias where you only hear about the great stories but don't hear about all the others who had hurdles

[brazen island]

Cover letters can kinda be like Jinja templates for lack of a better example

[smoky quest]

also try to think about the reverse case and how it would look: what if me, with a CS degree, wanted to get a job in mec eng.
What would you tell me to do to appear as a stronger candidate to entry level mec eng jobs?
Because it literally applies to your situation. You will need to show you have CS skills outside of your mec eng curriculum and you are worth talking to

[lilac quail]

Don't include it in your projects 😅

[summer roost]

I'd only bother writing a cover letter if there's something that makes you a good fit for a particular job that you can't find any way to articulate/demonstrate in the resume. That shouldn't be too common, but it's probably more common for career switchers.

[brazen island]

There's formulas you can use and customize them a bit in a way you're not spending <10 mins per cover letter tbh.

I have general strategies but idk how applicable they are in the US and correlation != causation means that I'm not sure that my cover letters were a dealbreaker, although companies usually referenced things that were specifically written in them.

[wanton birch]

Kinda sorta! People like that I know have no valid explanation for the how part. It seems entirely up to luck/network.

[gritty rivet]

I have no doubt that networking is important, and luck doesn't hurt, but I think what recursive is pointing to is probably the most critical thing.

Get your resume redone, get feedback, keep applying. To me if you're not getting at least one interview per 50 applications then your resumé/application strategy needs work. Once you start getting a little bit of traction it will only be a question of a bit more time

[leaden jasper]

A specific way you can network is by joining a professional society. That's where a lot of my most effective networking comes from. You can do identity based professional societies, field-specific professional socities, etc.

[wanton birch]

Yeah. Folks on here gave me that advice along with finding groups to meetup and network with. Working on that right now.

[keen fractal]

Any advice for an aspiring self taught programmer who's very new to the world of programming

[leaden jasper]

I find the most useful advice is grounded in specifics, so to be specific: I'm part of the LGBTQ+ community and I'm part of a STEM LGBTQ+ society. I've had a lot of great networking opportunities fall out from there and is probably my most useful network. The society hosts two career/job fairs a year and companies are actively recruiting from that community. Other professional societies have similar things.

[wanton birch]

Brilliant! I will go start my own CIS STEM Society 🤣

[short kernel]

hey I need some course to learn how to use python on cyper security

[still pendant]

#python-discussion would be a better place

[uncut quest]

or #cybersecurity

[raw nest]

This is a job posting for a 2 month student intern. Have a look at that. They are asking for a CISSP !?

(Cissp requires 5 yrs of experience)

[gritty rivet]

A lot of job listings are posted by recruiters who copy and paste nonsense with no idea what they're talking about... Nothing surprises me anymore. The famous examples are where they want 6-8 years of experience with a technology which has only existed for 2-3 years 😉

[raw nest]

right, what was more surprising was, this was posted by a popular healthcare company in my country

[sleek egret]

sometimes job requirements are setup so that it's impossible to qualify for a variety of reasons

[uncut quest]

That's a huge jump to go from Security+ to CISSP

[gritty rivet]

On the one hand, nonsense postings make me think "don't waste your time", but if it's a good fit aside from that stupid detail definitely worth applying

[sleek egret]

let me give you an example. say a team lead wants his team to shift to a new technology. he proposes it to his boss. his boss says "hire someone to do this" but the team lead already has someone in mind he wants to laterally move into his group from within the company.

so he tells HR, "these are the requirements" making sure it's literally impossible. a few months later, HR says "we can't find anyone". team lead goes to his boss with this and suggests his desired course of action.

lots of other scenarios happen. hell, sometimes job postings are just threater to "prove" that the company searched for a candidate locally.

there's always lots of political BS going on behind the scenes at companies. don't be naive and assume everything is what it looks like on the surface. though, of course, sometimes it is what it looks like on the surface 🙂

[raw nest]

that makes sense, Considering a university student holding cissp cert is near to impossible.

[sleek egret]

also, don't take job postings at face value. often the listed requirements are not actually requirements, just "nice to haves".

[lilac quail]

yeah or in other words, if the offer is a 50% fit, it's already a great fit

[sleek egret]

sometimes

[near ocean]

Job posters arent perfect either, probably some HR guy that doesnt even know what cissp is

[sleek egret]

sometimes the requirements actually are requirements. the problem is that you don't know which is which.

[uncut quest]

Just gotta apply and find out 🤷‍♂️

[lilac quail]

sure, you still have to apply if you're actively looking for something

[sleek egret]

the working world is not like school. everything (pre-requisites, assessment, job roles, titles, offers, etc, etc) is variable fuzzy and "depends".

[wanton birch]

Question for professionals:

If someone like me added you on LinkedIn, how would you want me to ask you about your career and company? I don’t want to offend. I just want to know more about the kind of work you do and maybe discuss the open positions listed on your company sites.

I am not talking about you guys. Just getting tips on how to start conversations with those who accepted my invite on LinkedIn.

[sleek egret]

people you don't know won't accept your linkedin requests

[gritty rivet]

For a mid-career Master's student it's quite possible in theory, but I imagine pretty rare in practice

[wanton birch]

Speak for yourself. I always get people accepting mine for some reason.

[raw nest]

thats not right, Samy kamkar accepted my connection request once

[lilac quail]

Yeah, join meet-ups, say hello, then send a LinkedIn invite 😄 That's the bare minimum

[sleek egret]

ok, actual people won't accept them. scammers, bots and link farmers will

[wanton birch]

They are not fake or scammers. Real actual people.

[sleek egret]

ok, if you say so

[raw nest]

samy isnt scammer

[gritty rivet]

If you point out what you have in common and ask an intelligent question that shows you've read their profile and are genuinely interested in their experiences and advice... Many people will take that favorably.

[lilac quail]

Is that worth the time compared to just applying to more job offers? Imo no. Don't waste your time on that kind of networking.

[wanton birch]

I am not sure what to do with simply collecting legit folks on LinkedIn. Does me no good if I can’t at least pick their brains to improve my prospects.

[lilac quail]

They're usually not the people actively recruiting

[sleek egret]

a linked in connection to someone who accepts requests from random strangers is worth next to nothing because that person likely has thousands or 10's of thousands of "connections". they're link farmers.

[raw nest]

I would prefer meeting up in person, Find out conferences and meetups near you, Network with people. You can find about events online

[wanton birch]

Well the HR and recruiters virtually never ever respond to anything ever. It’s always random employees who will talk to me and sometimes even agree to zoom coffee chats!

[lilac quail]

Then it seems you're already good at approaching them 🙂

[sleek egret]

lol, when do they do any actual work?

I mean, I'm a nobody and even I get a dozen random requests every day. I delete them all.

[wanton birch]

Ah! So you were projecting!

[raw nest]

people usually connect to ask for job opportunities

[sleek egret]

Fahim: think about from the perspective of someone who's even a little well known

[uncut quest]

I haven't done this often - but sometimes connecting with alumni in industries I'm interested in to have a quick chat led to some good conversations. Obviously - they're not recruiters. But as a student, I was able to ask questions about their career / job / industry.

[sleek egret]

they're gonna get hundreds or more random requests for connection every day

[wanton birch]

I am not terrible. Was just wondering if you guys get approached and what annoys you. I want to avoid being an idiot. My social skills are terrible.

[sleek egret]

you want an introduction from someone they already know

[wanton birch]

Yeah. I am sure some people just can’t do anything about it practically speaking. Probably getting flooded.

[wanton birch]

Ohk. So how do I add that “someone” on LinkedIn and start a conversation?

[sleek egret]

get an introduction

[wanton birch]

Recursion limit reached!

[sleek egret]

that's sort of the (original) entire point of linkedin, isn't it?

[uncut quest]

I think being polite and genuine should be good already. If some of these people are willing to have zoom coffee chats - sounds like you're doing fine.

[wanton birch]

Yeah. Moving continents and all isn’t all that great. I don’t know many relevant people here and the known people on my linked in aren’t connected here.

[uncut quest]

Everyone is different. Some would be annoyed. Some will ghost you. But in my experience, many of them remember the struggles of breaking into their first job and will be willing to give genuine advice. That's at least my experience.

[lilac quail]

I think a field-related approach as you mentioned works. If you show you want to connect with a peer, it's probably enough to maxmize your chances of getting that connection. Not sure it will get you a job though

[wanton birch]

Well! I am running out of ideas here. Also running out of time and money. Hopefully it’ll all workout soon enough.

[gritty rivet]

I found my first and current dev job because a peer with zero experience who was also trying to break into the industry mentioned that he failed a technical assessment and I asked him about it. I'm certain I would not have found this job if I'd not pursued that conversation.

This is just one example of why I believe that networking with people who aren't necessarily hiring can be extremely useful

[modern ore]

Will I pass google resume screening with a referral 🤔😭

[smoky quest]

if you put your hope on referrals to get through the resume screening, that's a sign your resume is not good enough

[summer roost]

The only thing a referral really changes is that a hiring manager is likely to spend a little more time reviewing your resume than they otherwise would, since someone already at the company is saying they think you'd be a good fit

[smoky quest]

and to be honest, if your resume is weak and the company is not that cynical, I am doubtful your referrer would actually refer you. They may say yes to you but then not pass it along as it would impact their standing at the company

[summer roost]

And it might move you up the list in terms of review priority. They might look at someone with a referral sooner than someone without one.

[small geode]

Depending on the company, it can also prevent it from being thrown out by the HR system. This is highly doubtful at Google, though...

[summer roost]

I'm skeptical that there are companies where automated systems are throwing out resumes automatically, rather than based on human action.

[small geode]

I help maintain ours and can tell you that is a very common feature. It will outright deny applications that don't have bachelor's if you configure it.

I was one of those cases, where my Associates had me thrown out instantly but my referral made it to the director, who wanted an interview and had it overridden.

[radiant moon]

yeah, I imagine some places get so many resumes that they simply cannot filter them any other way

[smoky quest]

Interesting. That would be the first time I hear about something like that.
Which ATS do you use?

[vapid jay]

Are you able to get a job with just only knowing python

[radiant moon]

well you'll need to be able to read and write, and use a computer ...
I'm partly serious. What other skills are you thinking of?

[summer roost]

The ATS's I'm used to don't do any filtering, basically just sorting instead. They give the hiring manager something like a spreadsheet, which the hiring manager can filter or sort based on whatever criteria they want. There's no need to have the system reject anyone, they'd just repeatedly be sorted to the bottom or filtered out by the hiring manager in favor of candidates with better credentials

[radiant moon]

seems roughly the same -- if there are a zillion applications, I bet the managers don't look at the ones that sort to the bottom

[limpid rain]

Hello

Can someone give me some tips on landing a first job as an Intermediate-Advanced Python programmer?

[summer roost]

The result is the same from the candidate's PoV if there are more qualified applicants who sort above them, sure, but the mechanism is different. @small geode seems to be saying that the ATS they use automatically rejects people without giving a hiring manager any choice or agency in the decision, and that surprises me.

[radiant moon]

ah, it'd surprise me too

[summer roost]

I definitely agree that someone with a degree is more likely to have their resume reviewed by a hiring manager than someone without one, but I'm quite surprised to hear that there are systems where the hiring manager can't choose to look at people without degrees if the job is unfilled and no one with a degree has been qualified yet.

[sleek egret]

your first job will not be intermediate-advanced. sorry if I sound harsh about it.

[limpid rain]

I expect it to be more advanced yes, but I believe actually getting a job is the way to become advanced

[summer roost]

What level of formal education do you have? What prior work history do you have? Roughly how old are you? What country are you in? What languages and technologies do you know?

[brave matrix]

Hey guys. I just finished writing my resume, any constructive criticism would be appreciated, thanks

[sleek egret]

perhaps I did not understand your question

[limpid rain]

I asked about tips for how to get a job as a Python programmer in Intermediate-Advanced level

[sleek egret]

be careful how you present your experience. when you lead with a company name like "Fiver/Upwork" that implies that you were an employee there

[sleek egret]

second, you may want to omit the reference to "about a dozen projects" for the first entry. a dozen projects in six months is not impressive, instead it makes it sound like the projects were small/trivial. just highlight a few (as you did).

[brave matrix]

fair enough, I will add it in the description that I worked as a freelancer on those two platforms

[sleek egret]

extend the titles of your projects to be more descriptive instead of just saying what data source you used

[sleek egret]

it is highly unlikely that you will be able to land a job a job as a python programmer in intermediate-advanced level for your first job. even if you have a PhD in CS from MIT

[limpid rain]

I left primary school at third grade due to personal reasons (I'm not going to talk about them), I don't have any working history in this industry in general, I'm 19, 20 in five days, I'm from Morocco and I speak Spanish and Arabic as native, plus near native English and a B2 in French

[sleek egret]

"intermediate-advanced" means you have worked for at least a few years minimum as a professional in software development.

[small geode]

I really don't prefer to disclose. They've been bought out roughly 4 times though

[harsh river]

what'd be the harm though?

[limpid rain]

Well I defined it as I read and watched enough tutorials and books to be comfortable in Python but not a master of it yet or someone with working experience

[sleek egret]

I'm afraid your definition is not aligned with most people's.

[small geode]

Any disclosure of software used publicly is potential for data gathering on an organization. Yes, it's a stretch for it to happen. I simply don't let it be possible

[limpid rain]

That's true once you think about it

[sleek egret]

either way, without educational credentials, you need to demonstrate your skillset. that is typically done by having worked on a non-work projects and showing code to prospective employers

[limpid rain]

As in algorithm knowledge and practical applications, right?

[sleek egret]

your location makes things a bit tough. formal employment at US/EU firms will be near impossible for you without a relevant degree. I guess low-end contracting work to build up a history and reputation may be a viable option, but understand that this will take years

[limpid rain]

I might relocate to Spain in this year, does that change anything?

[sleek egret]

if you can get a work permit, sure. but even then, without a degree, it will be challenging.

but if you're legal to work in the EU, at least it won't be near impossible

[limpid rain]

Actually I'm born in Spain and I have permanent residence

[sleek egret]

I don't know much about work permit/citizenship/whatever laws in the EU

[limpid rain]

Well, so I'm better off as a Freelancer

[harsh river]

if you were born in spain you have citizenship

[limpid rain]

I guess I'll just work on my portfolio so that it masks my lack of education somewhat

[sleek egret]

without a network of past employment it will be very difficult to get high paying clients as a freelancer. you will probably end up working through job-shop websites for low pay. that said, over time, you can build a reputation and work up the pay scales

[limpid rain]

I was born to Moroccan immigrants, which did not request citizenship neither for them nor me

[lilac quail]

@limpid rain I'd get a degree either in Spain or anywhere in the EU as you're an EU citizen.
For example in France you have this school with no diploma requirement https://42.fr/en/homepage/

[sleek egret]

either you have the legal right to work in the EU or you do not. none of us are lawyers.

[harsh river]

you don't have to request citizenship, once you're born in a country you automatically get citizenship

[limpid rain]

And spanish laws dictate that children of immigrants in Spain have to spend a year in Spain before requesting spanish citizenship (or that's what google says, I'm not a lawyer either)

[lilac quail]

Nope, not true for every country

[sleek egret]

I second @lilac quail's advice. building a career as a software developer without a CS (or related) university degree is very difficult

[harsh river]

dunno then ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[lilac quail]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E2z-SvjXIAMMF0U.jpg

[gritty rivet]

Yes, whether for formal employment or freelance work that's going to be important. And you shouldn't rule out getting a degree if there's any possibility (if you were in the US I would suggest looking at WGU.edu). You never really know what you might land until you start putting your resume out there, but expect an uphill battle without a degree or professional experience

[sleek egret]

none of can do anything about that shit. our opinions don't matter. either you have the right to work in the EU or you don't.

[limpid rain]

So far my plan is going back to Spain this year and trying to get a HS diploma, but I was expecting to find work there as a programmer while I'm studying

[limpid rain]

Then, I have

[sleek egret]

I'd suggest seeking an internship if you're in school

[sleek egret]

I'm afraid you opinion doesn't matter either. only the spanish gov's opinion matters.

[gritty rivet]

Expect to take whatever job you can find. Most likely that will not be programming until you have a degree

[limpid rain]

It's not my opinion, I hold a permanent residency permit

[sleek egret]

does that give you the right to work?

[lilac quail]

On a more global level I would not recommend Spain either for IT jobs lol. If you have the opportunity to move north, via school exchange programs or whatnot, do it

[limpid rain]

Yes

[sleek egret]

ok, then you're set. now all you need is a university degree

[limpid rain]

If I go back to school, will I have to redo all the years I missed?

[sleek egret]

if you already know how python a bit, you'll have a slight advantage over other students in your studies. and, hopefully, the ability to impress during internships. which could lead to a lucrative career.

[lilac quail]

you can find schools that will take you on an entry exam with a lot of programming exercises like the one I linked

They're rare but they're popping here and there.

[sleek egret]

I think he's talking about middle school and high school (or equivalents)

[limpid rain]

Yes, that

[lilac quail]

Yeah I heard School 42 was taking people that dropped out of school very early. Kind of their trademark.

[limpid rain]

Looks promising, plus they have a campus in Barcelona, where I'll live

I guess I now know what I should do, thanks a bunch guys!

[sleek egret]

bon chance

[brave matrix]

ok bro I will remove unecessary details and explain better what I did in my projects, thanks bro I will post the updated version here tomorrow

[mighty cosmos]

I've been finding it challenging to decide on the right path to take in software engineering. While I understand that my interest should guide my choice, I need to consider the job market. Are there actual job opportunities, especially at the entry level, in the fields of software engineering I'm interested in? There might be a difference between what I enjoy and what is practical in terms of employment opportunities.

[peak halo]

Are there actual job opportunities ... in the fields of software engineering I'm interested in?
We do not know what your interests are unless you tell us.

[mighty cosmos]

Application development and iOS

[peak halo]

Only on iOS? not android?

[mighty cosmos]

Both

[radiant moon]

not a lot of use of Python on phones. Backend, sure

[mighty cosmos]

But are there junior level jobs out there…

What do you guys do?

[radiant moon]

Nothing, at the moment 🙂

previously: a little python, a lot of Java, Azure, a bit of C#, spark, ...

[vapid jay]

talking about jobs. how do i get better at web scraping.
i learned requests, bs4 and selenium. i made an upwork account but idk most jobs there are for web development

or the correct question would be where to look for work

i just feel like its going very slowly and I don't even have a good profile to attract customers

[smoky quest]

web scraping is kind of at the bottom of the priorities in terms of career. It's far from being a common task

[vapid jay]

damn

[radiant moon]

I'd be surprised, and a little disturbed, if there were a lot of jobs for web scrapers

[vapid jay]

lmfao fair tbh. i think i should try with webdev again

[smoky quest]

If you are in HS or college, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[sleek egret]

my suggestion is to try not to be a bottom feeder

[vapid jay]

makes sense. i still got 2 years left but just couldn't wait

[vapid jay]

._.

[smoky quest]

you don't have to wait. You can sharpen your skills by going deeper into the materials from your classes and having side projects

[sleek egret]

school is much easier and funner and less stressful than "real life". enjoy it while you can.

[vapid jay]

yeah im working on improving my protofolio. guess i should be paitent
thank you

btw is backend webdev needed? i tried fullstack but frontend was so annoying so i dropped it

[smoky quest]

sure

[radiant moon]

heh, I'm mostly a backend webdev fella
I'll do frontend if they can't find anyone else 🤣

[smoky quest]

it's typically just called "backend"

[vapid jay]

for personal reasons it's really not. that's why i wanna start working quick to not depend on my family and move out.

[vapid jay]

alr thx ill look into it

[vapid jay]

o nice

[vapid jay]

i add webdev to differentiate cause sometimes guis can be called frontend? you're right that in general it refers to webdev stuff tho

i mean like in desktop applications

[vernal onyx]

I apologize for the impending wall of text, but I'm driving myself crazy, so I figured asking those in the field for advice might help me clear some cobwebs.

I have an AS in Network Engineering, and many years of experience doing Help Desk, Desktop support, and unofficially Project Management and Automation. I've been out of the IT world for 8 years. I now need to re-enter the workforce with an Engineer level (or close to it) position. I picked Python and Amazon Web Services (AWS) as they seemed to be things I'm interested in, and especially Python as I used to write elaborate batch files to do a lot of remote computer management.

Currently, I'm taking a boot camp style class on Python, but I'm afraid it might be too broad. AWS is AWS, I'm working on the Certified Cloud Practitioner certification (I know that certification does not equal a guaranteed job). I like data management and have dabbled in SQL/MySQL.

I know it's the wave of the future, but I don't enjoy web development. I grew up on DOS 3.0, then 6.22. I haven't learned Linux, but have tried on more than one occasion and just can't get the hang of it, or found the right books/courses.

I'm at a standstill with my classes. I fear that I'm studying the wrong stuff and none of it will help me get a job, and on the flip side, I don't even know what the hiring environment is like. I can't even get any of the local recruiters to return my phone calls! The 2 people I know who are in the business (1 in AWS the other in Python) are really tight-lipped about things, so I can't really use them as a resource or thermometer to the current landscape.

The bottom line is; in order to maintan the standard of living for me and my kids, I need to break into an engineer level position and prove that I know my stuff

Once I figure out what that stuff is. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[radiant moon]

Sorry, but you need to learn Linux.
find someone nearby who's willing to sit with you for an hour a week or something
You don't need to be a total whiz, but you should be comfortable at the command line, know what processes are and how they work, know the basic commands
Not sure what you mean by "data management", but maybe make a project that uses AWS' managed MySQL, or if you're feeling adventurous, S3 or dynamodb

[vernal onyx]

Gotcha. I'm just not sure if I'm on the right path really. I keep hearing about all this other stuff that isn't Python like Chef, Puppet, Kubernetes, etc and it's just getting on top of me. I have about 6 months give or take to be able to do this, while still taking care of the kids.

[radiant moon]

I'd also get comfortable with the AWS identity and authorization stuff -- I say this because it's been my Achilles heel (also similarly with Azure, for me), and getting that solid up front will be helpful

[small geode]

It all depends on what you're actually trying to land, and what the company uses

[smoky quest]

Install linux on your desktop/laptop and force yourself to use it as your main computer

[small geode]

I've also heard by someone who uses AWS for work that learning this is essentially required

[vernal onyx]

I have Ubuntu as a VM already

[smoky quest]

so you are only using ubuntu full screen and never getting out of it?

[vapid jay]

mint is better cause it uses a package manager instead of snaps

[vernal onyx]

I'm in Windows now. I haven't booted up the VM in a while since I've been lost on what to actually do.

[radiant moon]

Ignore CHef, puppet, k8s for now; Linux is absolutely essential to understanding those

[smoky quest]

Right, so you aren't doing what I am suggesting: Install linux on your desktop/laptop and force yourself to use it as your main computer

It's not because I have a VM somewhere on my disk that the knowledge is being absorbed just by virtue of being there

[radiant moon]

pick a few fundamental technologies -- e.g., Linux, MySQL, and AWS-in-general -- and design a toy project that uses them all; deploy it and let the public use it.

[buoyant seal]

btw, i am actually in AWS and python too xD
and yeah, advice above was a good one. Install Linux distro as main OS. Kubuntu 22.04 LTS a nice one, but essentially find to your own taste one.
it is really useful for people which augment their skills with AWS
P.S. VM is only very mediocre half experience

[vernal onyx]

There is a project I saw to get a Minecraft private server running on AWS that I thought about, but I don't have anyone that would actually use it and beat it up for testing and mangement purposes. I had a series of php sites (it was an OLD project) that used MySQL to display static tables, and at one point would even accept new record entries through the website, but I forget what happened, and I stopped using it. I'm not big on web development stuff like that, which is why it's still PHP and not something more current. I also lost most of my db to a ransomware attack on my machine a year or so ago and I've learned the importance of backups.

[buoyant seal]

not a bad idea can be to read this book. really good one for someone which choses Python/AWS/web path

[vernal onyx]

I'll be up front and honest that I'm scared to use it as my main OS. The last time I tried it was using Fedora Core and I couldn't get a basic network share to work, nor even get a media player working.

iirc, Netflix doesn't even work under Linux. I'm not sure if my classes would.

[radiant moon]

other than forcing yourself to learn, there's no reason to use Linux as your main OS -- IMHO it's terrible at that. use windows or Mac or whatever you like.

[smoky quest]

That's the point. That's the best way to learn.

That said, fedora is pretty good and should work out of the box on most hardware

[smoky quest]

I would leave more room for opinions.

[vernal onyx]

I tried one time after that, and hated every minute of using Unity.

[radiant moon]

I believe I said IMHO, in which the O stands for the word "opinion"

Your desktop OS is a deeply personal choice, like your style of underwear 🙂

[smoky quest]

wasn't clear if the imho applied to the whole line or just the second half.

[vapid jay]

dam ppl have styled underwear?

[buoyant seal]

ubuntu distributions work out of the box as well. one of reasons i like Kubuntu. it looks like windows and i need nothing to configure except my development software. Very windowsish familiar look

[smoky quest]

GNU/Linux is awesome as an OS.
imho, can't find a better OS for a developer or an admin

[vernal onyx]

By "data management" I mean things like looking at trends, entering and retrieving data, looking at data from different angles, connecting dots that may not otherwise be seen.

[radiant moon]

apart from "entering", that sounds like what they call "big data", which is often done via Spark and friends, not MySQL. But that's just a suggesting for more tech for you to learn about

[vapid jay]

it takes time to learn how to do stuff the linux way like it did to learn windows. so it's totaly okay for stuff not working at first and taking a lot of adjusting

[summer roost]

Nearly every machine used anywhere is running some Unix-like OS, from the routers and switches to the servers to consumer smartphones, smart watches, and IoT gadgets. Not learning how Unix-like OS's work does limit your ability to understand the vast majority of systems.

[vernal onyx]

There was a fundraising software that I had a help desk job supporting, and it was all done with SQL, and we would have to teach users how to find this data, display this data, etc, and make reports that were really interesting in the end.

[summer roost]

almost everything is Unix-like except a) Windows desktops, and b) Windows servers. And those make up just a tiny fraction of the computing landscape

[radiant moon]

Yep, sounds like you should drill down in SQL; true expertise there is rare

[vernal onyx]

I'm not against trying Linux again.

SQL just lost me when it started introducing @@ and writing large subqueries that would work as a standard query, but was frowned upon.

It's like

print(a)

instead of just making the code

print("apple")

I forgoet to mention in my wall o' text, the other big factor for determining my studying/career is I need to be 100% remote. I'm the primary caregiver for my kids and I need to remain available for them.

[hearty island]

goddamnit

the PMBOK switched from the 6th edition to the 7th edition so now i have to re-learn all the new material to get my CAPM

[summer roost]

so am I understanding that you have an AS in network engineering, but have never yet worked as a network engineer, @vernal onyx?

[vernal onyx]

That would be correct. I've been a jack-of-all-trades my entire career (as short as it is) and I've never actually fulfilled the role of a Network Engineer because there were always people more qualified, or had more AD experience (I have virtually none), or I'd have to "work up to it" and it never opened up.

The more I got away from it, the more I realized I don't really like networking. Stressing over subnets or routing isn't what I find enjoyable.

I'm more into automation, and projects, and databases, etc.

[balmy spade]

Hasn't the 7th edition been published for four years now? There's also huge areas of alignment between editions. Hardly the end of the world.

[vernal onyx]

That's what brought me to Python, the automation part of it. I've learned some basic C and I actually find myself missing it when I'm doing Python. Maybe it's because I have more experience with C than Python, but it just made more sense to me.

I enjoyed my second to last job the most when they would bring me a broken piece of something tell me "make it work" and leave me to my devices. I saved more than 1 multi-million dollar project that way. There just isn't a job for a tinkerer.

[summer roost]

it sounds to me like the type of "engineer" jobs that you're closest to qualified for would be DevOps Engineer - but it honestly doesn't sound like you're particularly close to that...

[vernal onyx]

DevOps does sound like where I want to be. In AWS, I need to get Solutions Architect Associate => Sysops Administrator Associate => DevOps Professional certs.

[wanton birch]

What constitutes learning linux for you? I might be able to help a bit.

[vernal onyx]

I know ls is "list" to show the list of the current directory. "man x" to pull up the manual for "x", the change directory stuff.

I get list with vim. I forget what it is off the top of my head now, but I was using the command to see the status of different running processes

[wanton birch]

First figure out WHY the job requires you to know Linux. That will tell you WHAT you need to know.

[vernal onyx]

When I set up my VM, I gave it a 100GB disc, but was cramming everything into a small maybe 30GB part of the disk and I kept running into "out of space" and all the stuff I Google'd to tell me how to fix it never did, and I even expanded the one smaller partition to the empty, unused space and it still kept saying No Space Available and I couldn't install packages.

[hearty island]

idk about that

[silver jacinth]

install qt creator then tell me there's no problems. QT is also the one kde uses

[lean sundial]

you don't need to learn linux

that much as you think

[vernal onyx]

I figured that I would need to know enough to be able to look at different processes, figure out what's wrong, and figure out how to fix it. I won't need the Linux+ cert (is that still a thing?), just enough to navigate to do my job.

[dreamy spade]

What is everybody’s comfortability level for video interviews?

[vernal onyx]

I haven't done an interview, but I'm generally more engaged with video calls than I am with phone calls. I'm also more outgoing with video/irl interviews because it's a lot easier to read the nonverbal queues from the person you're talking to.

[dreamy spade]

I’m getting requested for a video interview during business hours. This is a problem because I’m working a temporary job

[vernal onyx]

When I had to do that previously, I would do it over lunch, or ask for an extended lunch. The interviewer should understand if you're in your car or whatnot to do the interview. At least you showed up for it.

[dreamy spade]

My lunches are only a half hour long.

[true harness]

what do you mean by video interviews? like, a zoom call? or they give you a form and you record answers

[dreamy spade]

Yes. Something like a zoom call.

[true harness]

during business hours is what you would expect if it's a live interview. otherwise, it's not a good sign

[dreamy spade]

Imagine if I took a day off from work to do the interview and then I end up losing the first round. Lost the opportunity and a day worth of pay.

[true harness]

that would be pretty bad. on the other hand, would you rather have no interview?

I do prefer video, since, like mentioned, it's easier to read cues for me. and I can try to look engaged and attentive and appear to take notes

[wanton birch]

Can't you ask for a longer break?

[vernal onyx]

Do you have PTO and use it as a "sick" day?

[summer roost]

do you have any flexibility for scheduling it before the start or after the end of your normal working day? Of course they'll want to interview you during business hours, since that's when they're working, but you might be able to wiggle it a bit to avoid conflicts. Otherwise, yeah, you might be stuck taking time off.

[dreamy spade]

do you have any flexibility for scheduling it before the start or after the end of your normal working day?

Great idea. This was my request.

[dreamy spade]

I used my sick day for my convocation ceremony yesterday.

[dreamy spade]

No that’s not fair for them

[wanton birch]

It won't matter as long as they are fine with you taking additional 30 mins of that one day.

[sleek egret]

you're right, it's not fair. most prospective employers simply do not care.

[modern ore]

is it healthy to work for 13 hours a day during your internship 🤔

[smoky quest]

do you enjoy it? Does it impede on other parts of your life?

[modern ore]

Yes to both

[sleek egret]

healthy? probably not. do a lot of people do it? sure

[smoky quest]

then it's up to you

[brazen island]

So when people say "learn Linux" what does that mean?

I'm far from a Linux whizz. I daily drive windows but I do all of my development through SSH (work) or WSL (home). I'd say the best way to describe me and Linux is that I get by and it doesn't impede me.

I'd be willing to invest more time in it but that comes at spending time vis a vis other things I could invest time in career wise so I wonder if my current, shitty, level is enough.

[smoky quest]

I mean, it depends on the job and level of experience

[robust island]

As re said, it really depends on who's telling you. If all the programmers in the company use it to develop stuff, learning will mostly just include being familiar in it, knowing how to install and open programs, etc. that you do on Windows. If it's, say, a server admin job, you'll definitely need to know a lot more about containerization, networking, monitoring, etc.

[brazen island]

Do a bit of everything in data in a research context: ML, data pipelines + orchestration, (simple) webapps,, ...

The catch is that we typically work on projects with small teams in an end-to-end way so you wear many hats. Never that of server admin. Since I'm in a multi-disciplinary field for other subdomains I usually draw the line somewhere and decide that beyond there the diminshing returns are too high so I'm not gonna spend time learning it. Just don't know enough about Linux to do that.

I think I'm indeed at the level of installing stuff and opening programs tbh. (And I'm most likely overthinking this)

[summer roost]

Everyone "needs" to know enough to do some basic file handling in the shell, understand how to run executables, list processes, kill a process, etc. Beyond those basics, it'll depend entirely on the role you're in.

Most people don't need much more than the basics, some people need much more than the basics

[brazen island]

Thanks, makes sense. Most reasonable thing to do is just go at the pace I'm going then.

[timber bear]

Hey I want to become a full stack developer

[full nymph]

bro whats the difference between software engineer and software developer

[near ocean]

Theres no difference my guy

[full nymph]

really?

why the hell someone says "this one is programming for software to working and this one is programming for hardware to working"

what that does even mean?

[pastel thunder]

Is it worth mentioning a good rank for a session in university? Or its just sound BS?
for example can you say "ranked x in session 22-23"? considering that sessio is just one of 4 sessions in bachelors?

[full nymph]

and what the freak is "computer application programmer😇

[near ocean]

That makes no sense
Anyone trying to convince you software engineers and software devs are different probably dont know what they're talking about

[full nymph]

i dm you bcs im so confused w this🙏

[near ocean]

I dont do dms, just ask here

[full nymph]

alright man

[pastel thunder]

old man

[full nymph]

alright old man🫦, so, im confuse. software developer and computer applicatiom programmer? is it the same software/application. Or...application that mobile use? idk

[near ocean]

That is one yikes list, where did you get it?
Half of those are software dev/engineering stuff, the other half is not

[pastel thunder]

it literally mean whatever its literal meaning is.
Development and design and engineer are synonymous, so software dev, design, engineer also are same
when it says application dev, it mean they do app development mainly.
Its fuzzy not 100% defined, you may ride multiple boat if you get hired

[full nymph]

i am so confused with computer application programmer

[near ocean]

Its a software dev or software engineer
That mostly works on apps, desktop apps

[pastel thunder]

google search?
Application software developers design computer applications, such as games.

[full nymph]

is it true that, web development is part of the software developer too? (mean its harder)

[near ocean]

Thats what I said

[pastel thunder]

depends on job description

[full nymph]

wait... so if i want to be game developer which one should i go with?

[pastel thunder]

i meant to tag him not you sorry

[near ocean]

Web dev is software development yes
It doesnt mean its harder or easier

[pastel thunder]

Definitely DONT GO BY THE TAG

[full nymph]

oh btw i get this on university web, im only 18 and want to start software engineering course

[near ocean]

If you want to make games, go get a CS degree, by the time you graduate you'll know better

[full nymph]

my exam result just out this morning glad it is okey (atleast for me)

[pastel thunder]

mine came out too, ranked 12 in university. Just wanted to brag a little😀

[full nymph]

nice mann

[full nymph]

so basically software developer is.. better? (and harder)

[near ocean]

Than what, and also no

[pastel thunder]

game dev is harder, not always but mostly

[near ocean]

Harder than what lol

[full nymph]

wait inwant tooo show smtg

[pastel thunder]

Basically depend if you are making software for unicorn where scalability plus numerous otherthings need to considered.
In game development, some games can require a lot of skill, like getting into "battle.net" game dev company is harder than getting into amazon or microsoft.

[near ocean]

No its not lol and no you dont want to get into actiblizz cause they treat their employees like shit

[pastel thunder]

the factors keeps on increasing, thats why i said its fuzyy

[near ocean]

Youre not getting paid fairly, game dev is a terrible industry anyway, crunches, abuse, etc

[pastel thunder]

dont ask for comparison. People will start debating, human thing. @full nymph

[near ocean]

You just answered a comparison question lol

[pastel thunder]

and it did offend you lol

[near ocean]

Not offend me, it just doesnt make sense to compare like you just said

[pastel thunder]

yup.

[full nymph]

So, this one university ordered these course like this...

-Software & Application Development

• Networking System -Information Security
  -Game development

So the top is the hardest and the best? (and best for me bcs i want to be software engineer)

[full nymph]

i think this is okey, all of yours oppinion, i really appreciate this because i would love to know what ppl think

[near ocean]

It doesnt matter whats hardest, pick what you like

[full nymph]

this helps me really much thank you🙏

[pastel thunder]

cannot answer for you. consider
your interest
flexibility the course give you (so that you can take subject of you choice, even the one a little off the chossen specialisation
success (after completion)
Cost
etc ...

Plus, Prioritize the advice of your senior more than someone you met on discord

[full nymph]

yeah for sure old man

[raw nest]

He is right, Take what you like

Hardness is illusion

[full nymph]

bro i got no senior take software engineering course💀

they be skating all the time

[pastel thunder]

teachers?

[amber kestrel]

hey @bronze drum could I have your attention for a sec?

[bronze drum]

That's wierd! I got pinged on a server i never talked on 💀

[amber kestrel]

its a bit more compllicated than that xD

you see im an old friend 😅

[bronze drum]

Oh wait, yeah

[small geode]

Not to be a bummer but this is career discussion

[amber kestrel]

sry about that, is there a public general chat here?

[small geode]

!ot

[inner wren]

Off-topic channel

#ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[bronze drum]

Sry
As i a said i never talked here

[full nymph]

wait can i ask,did u learn computer science at school? im shocked bcs ppl already learn that,(calculus too) bcs i will learn all that when i get to Uni

[pastel thunder]

wdym?

[full nymph]

like

exactly science computer, at school i learn basic science (for me is phsiyc, biology and chemistry) but other school teach their student science computer course(like programming n stuff) even some of them learn calculus( i learn just basic math)

and i have two, math and addmath. when i ask "is that addmath?" they say that is just basic math. like it is so advanced

[pastel thunder]

i am a little bit of a weird kid. I never took CS in high school. My bachelors is Mechanical Engineering, I only did a minor degree which was also not Pure CS, it was robotics + AI. But i still got offer for SDE, DS.
What matters is how much are you willing to put efforts.
Doesnt matter if you dont know anything, you can learn it "right now", who's stopping you?

[dim bay]

can I be full stack web developer with only Python and Python based tools? if any other language comes under "necessary" category let me know

[near ocean]

Javascript

[dim bay]

Okay, are HTML and CSS optional?

[near ocean]

No but theyre pretty simple stuff usually so i kind of left them out, youre expected to know JS/html/css for fullstack

[tender thicket]

full stack generally means, well, full stack

html/css/js frontend, python or similar backend, as well as some familiarity with databases and deploy techniques. A fullstack developer should be able to go from 0 to application without needing to learn new things

[dim bay]

I would like to know , what software dev/ stack you specialize in and why you almost always active on career discussion group

[near ocean]

Im bored
I do fullstack with python/js

Technically im on lunch break right now

[dim bay]

do you think Ai bots will overtake your job anytime soon?

[near ocean]

I wish lol

Maybe i could do something more fun
Right now theres no way

[dim bay]

what I mean is if new AI tools arrive that can allow you to design website just by telling it in plain english what you want then your job will be at risk

[near ocean]

Yea im not worried

[fleet reef]

Luckily, business people are incapable of speaking in plain English

[near ocean]

Amen!

[dim bay]

I am not saying you worried, I am asking by understanding complexity of your job and given the pace of Ai models are developing do you think it may happen soon like in coming decade or so?

[gritty rivet]

No client is capable of explaining in plain English what they want, so we're safe

[fleet reef]

no.

[near ocean]

No from me as well
Also, im not exactly building new projects everyday at work
I have to fix and expand on decade old work with legacy tech and little to no documentation
The hard part isnt the software related technical part but understanding all the business specific shite that comes along

[dim bay]

ya from one perspective entire job of programmer is to explain computer what you want

[near ocean]

Thats the easy part

[dim bay]

so understanding what client wants that's hard part?

[near ocean]

Dealing with people in general is the hard part, for me anyway
Whether its clients or other teams

Thats usually why hospitality jobs are so hard

[dim bay]

I think in programming front end and in data analyst role you need more skills on understanding client requirement

[dim bay]

Depends on the person for some people they might be easy, and programming might be hard

[gritty rivet]

Right... So it's true that demand for basic entry-level programmers will continue to decline in part due to AI. But humans with advanced engineering skills are harder to replace

The bootcamp industry will fade, I strongly suspect, and graduate degrees will become the norm for SWEs

[near ocean]

Im a junior and i dont see how an ai can replace me when i spend most of my time chasing people to get their story straight

[dim bay]

your name says your old and you are Junior , so you started late or what?

[near ocean]

Its just a nickname, im at 1.5years exp

[gritty rivet]

Yeah, so entry level "programmers" do less and less actual programming.

[dim bay]

ya In game dev Unity what I hate most is I just keep seeing some kinda Loading or processing bar half the time

[gritty rivet]

I also have about 1.5 years experience as a developer. I'm in my 40s and have no CS degree. It wasn't hard for me, but I suspect 5 years from now it would be extremely difficult. AI increases the pressure I feel to keep learning and improving my skills (including how to leverage AI)

[dim bay]

what you specialize in AI or Web dev?

if AI were to overtake developer jobs, which type of developer it would take out first and which one would be last like Web dev, game dev, AI/machine learning dev, Cybersecurity dev?

[vapid jay]

Hello everybody! Could you give me ideas how to earn money with Data Science? I'm studying and i can't accepted to job, so I want create my own instagram page and make an Data Scientist service while studying. How I can promote this? (I have learned python,numpy,pandas) How I can help people with Data Science?

[hearty island]

https://www.pmi.org/-/media/pmi/documents/public/pdf/certifications/certified-associate-project-management-exam-outline.pdf?v=de3b7977-a7dc-402a-bae4-ed78992e8a87

https://www.pmi.org/-/media/pmi/documents/public/pdf/certifications/capm20ecofinal.pdf?rev=a79bf3c2e193457bb3a721575b23b51f if anything the updated CAPM sounds easier

[vapid jay]

Could anyone reply

[near ocean]

that doesnt seem very career related, we're not instagram specialists and frankly any tech content on insta is cringe and I wish didnt exist in the first place
are you sure you want to do this?

[gritty rivet]

Backend

[gritty rivet]

Just get a normal internship like a normal student 😉

[pine sleet]

If you want to tell us more about why you haven't been accepted to any job in #career-advice they can give you some advice :)

[sage relic]

I am a full stack development enthusiast and currently just about to complete the DOM manipulation in JavaScript and then ill start working on Reactjs. I have taken a club work where in a team of 4-5 people we will have to make a responsive website for them. I have told the club people before taking the work that i'm still on the learning phase so it will take some time for me to start working on it but it's just that they want me to start working on the website from august and i have got like 2 months hardly to get really good in js and reactjs. Basically we will be working mostly in reactjs but now i am just feeling nervous and scared for taking this work because i have got my academics too. I have just completed my 2nd year with a very bad GPA and i have got two years to improve my GPA too so ill need to focus a lot on my academics also (ECE Major) But somewhere I feel that this will be a good opportunity for me to really work on a project and at the end ill have to working in these tech stuffs. What should I do? PS: I can't drop out from the club because I am the only one in the club who knows about web dev but they have taken some volunteers for the team and i took their interviews so ig ill be leading the web dev team there but still i feel like a small burden if ill be able to handle that.

[pine sleet]

Guess you're already here. Thought this was pygen LOL

[gritty rivet]

TLDR 😅

[near ocean]

the tl;dr is your grades are top priority and if this club thing is interfering then you drop it right away

[sage relic]

well it is interfering but idk how to drop it now

i have like made sure to them that okay ill work on it

[near ocean]

You talk to the team and explain that its taking up a lot of your time and energy and your grades are suffering because of it and you cant have that

[sage relic]

but i once told them no, so they started requesting me a lot that please just give some time for this, you can work from august and i said yes to them

but now they have taken some people for the website development but they told me to take the interviews for them and i took it and now im thinking that they are gonna be making me the lead

which i dont want to be

[gritty rivet]

Then say no.

Setting and maintaining boundaries to protect your priorities is a useful skill to practice

[gray zealot]

anyone know how hard it actually is to get internships?

i’m kind of worried about it, I finished all my general education classes at a community college, now i am going into my junior year(transferring to a four year) but this will be my first year taking classes related to my major (computer science.) i’m just worried i won’t have enough knowledge by the end of the year and won’t be able to land an internship, and be screwed lol.

i don’t care about landing internship with a big tech company, i’m just really hoping i can get experience anywhere tbh so in return i can have it on my resume

[true harness]

what country are you in?

[rigid jay]

It's another next big step, i was always afraid of doing a bachelors degree because i was scared of not having the knowledge to succeed. I passed with flying colors 2 years later

[gray zealot]

United States

[rigid jay]

They will teach you the knowledge you need to pass

[gray zealot]

yeah i think i just kinda hurt myself tbh, just doing general education classes but i wasn’t sure what i wanted to do yet.

feel really behind, but yet again i still have 2-3 years of taking actual comp sci classes

[rigid jay]

I came from high school with a degree in metal (milling, turning, welding...)

[gray zealot]

i have been trying to teach myself python and once i have enough knowledge, i already have few projects i want to work on.

[rigid jay]

Did a bachelors degree in IT and landed it, theres no need to worry

[gray zealot]

i started one of them already but i just don’t have enough knowledge to complete it yet, (comparing sports betting lines)

[gritty rivet]

Nobody can tell you in advance what you'll get. Get feedback on your resume, find opportunities that suit you, and apply

[gray zealot]

for sure, just feel behind sometimes but destiny, made me feel better haha. Thank You.

[rigid jay]

No worries man, i've been in your shoes when i started out. It'll all fall into place.

[gritty rivet]

Don't focus so much on the past you can't change... What matters is what you can do right now to ensure you get the internship you want (or the closest you can)

[true harness]

as a junior you're eligible for pretty much all internships. the issue will be demonstrating that your skills are good enough through your resume

actually, that's pretty much always the issue

[gray zealot]

definitely, well i’m going to be grinding hard and try to get some projects on my resumè by the end of the school year

[rigid jay]

If you're genuinely interested, and willing to put in the work, you'll make it just fine

I've had fellow students studying on daddies money just because they didn't want to work, they fell out first semester

[pastel thunder]

Is it worth mentioning a good rank for a session in university? Or its just sound BS?
for example can you say "rank X in session 22-23"? considering that session(year) is just one of 4 sessions in bachelors?

[small geode]

I wouldn't consider it necessary

[brazen island]

If you graduated with honors on your degree or smth I'd add it in like 5 words or less, no ceremony

[near ocean]

I dont think deans list for a year or two is worth it

[brazen island]

Don't know what that is. On our degrees you get the fancy words "magna cum laude" printed if you graduate with greatest distinction or whatever so I put that in a small font in cursive under the name of the degree. Not worth a lot more space than that because it does not necessarily translate to competence for the job unless it's an academic role ig

[pastel thunder]

overall i am still in 95 percentile but i thought maybe i can mention it along the lines, in achievement sention.

[gritty rivet]

Not sure what country that is but in the US it's pretty standard to mention GPA under education (if it's impressive) and/or magna cum laude or summa cum laude.

^^^ for recent graduates I mean, not later in your career

[wanton birch]

You guys ever asked to upload your photo during a job application? I had this company ask for it once. It wasn't mandatory. But it still felt very odd given that their business had nothing to do with that. Like an engineering/tech company.

[small geode]

Never

[wanton birch]

Things like that confuses me. A lot of companies have their own in-house application systems and things they choose to have are super odd at times. This other company made me fill in things to create charts and graphs and what not all based on my CV!! Like wtf is even that!?! Why do you need to see my experiences and all that in some weird graph and chart system? Also had to make this whole timeline thing for them using their webtool.

[small geode]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[radiant moon]

maybe it's a filter -- they don't want to interview anyone who isn't willing to jump through apparently-pointless hoops

I'm only partly joking

[proven crest]

Not during an application process no.. Sounds a bit questionable to me.
Not like its a scam, but its a questionable practice

[proven crest]

Or employ anyone young/old/ethnic/unattractive..

[wanton birch]

It is also possible that whoever they asked to make the system for them just git cloned something else meant to be used for other types of jobs and never changed much of the code.

[small geode]

Highly doubt that

[wanton birch]

Too bad my CV will already let them know I am ethnic. Plus, there's linkedin and google in general to find out that I don't look attractive.

[brittle crow]

In some countries this is normal, in others, it's not.

[wanton birch]

I realise that. It was in Canada. Therefore I was surprised.

[proven crest]

Yeah, there is that. They could easily find out in the interview process anyway. Just seems strange to me that looking at a photo of someone is relevant to their ability to preform the job role

[errant jacinth]

Okay so, I got a hell of an opportunity for a paid intership

But thing is, they're asking for my resumé and I don't really know what I should include on it

They did ask for languages that I've already programmed in, but should I include Java? I've been learning for like, three weeks at most

Should I even put things that I'm not necessarily good at, but I did use them at some point?

[radiant moon]

My rule: don't put anything on your resume that you know you'd hate using

if you like Java, then put it on. Be (mostly) honest about your skill level

[errant jacinth]

I don't dislike Java, it's just that I'm not good at it

[proven crest]

I think it depends on if its a requirement and you'll need good working knowledge of it and how well you can back it up, how much can you talk about it in the interview

[errant jacinth]

I could probably become much better if I make an effort, but as of now I'm kinda clueless about it except for being able to somewhat read their codebases

[brittle crow]

If it's on a resume be prepared to discuss it. Don't lie.

[proven crest]

reading code is hard, so don't feel disheartened, thats a good sign!

[small geode]

If you're new to it, no. They want to see what you're comfortable with. It's also worth checking out the company's job postings and seeing what languages they do use.

[errant jacinth]

...I don't even feel prepared to discuss about Python 🥹

[brazen island]

If you've worked with either one of Python, C#, C++, ... the biggest hurdle for Java is syntax and not semantics. You'll get that easily don't worry.

[errant jacinth]

According to the offer, they requested the following; Python, Javascript, Java, Git, Docker and Linux

[wanton birch]

To be honest, looking at all the research on the subject matter, looks matter a great deal. And not just your face. People seem to assume all kinds of things based on age, gender, height, race, etc. In most cases, it isn't explicit though. People seem to get biased and make decisions and then retroactively justify the decisions by pointing at other things which actually were not the determining factors for their choice.

[brazen island]

I did my first few interviews for master thesis students and honestly what I wanted to ascertain is if they had common sense and a can-do attitude. That matters way more than what you know now.

[errant jacinth]

I kinda dunno why they want something that specific but I have already done all of that

[small geode]

That won't necessarily mean all of that all the time. It's just going to be what they use. I highly doubt they expect an intern to have gotten comfortable in 3 languages

[errant jacinth]

Then I'll cut out Java since I'm really uncomfortable with it and just put Python and JavaScript

[radiant moon]

sure

[errant jacinth]

Time to assemble my resumé, ty guys 🫶

[true harness]

can you answer questions about it? sounds like no if you're only 3 weeks in

[errant jacinth]

Yeah, I can't

[brazen island]

Answer that with honesty and confidence tbh "Oh no, I don't have a specific answer to that question but it didn't take me long to get a baseline of proficiency in language X while I was learning it and the details will come later."

[formal oriole]

If I didn’t get an answer on my post am I allowed to resubmit it? I made a post but did it wrong cuz I didn’t put things around the code section

[split citrus]

Hello guys, I was very fortunate in getting an internship this summer but this internship is out of field in which I want to work in. I got the job as an Electrical Engineer intern but in the future I would like to be a SWE. Will there be any problems in the future apply to SWE jobs with this internship?

[wanton birch]

What's your academic background?

[split citrus]

I am majoring in Computer Science

[split citrus]

this would be my first internship

[gritty rivet]

Is it too late to find an internship that's a better fit? If not, do it. If yes, it is what it is.

[split citrus]

Im afraid it might be too late

I am given a week to accept/decline the offer so I don't think I will have time to look for another

[summer roost]

It won't be very helpful to you for most types of SWE jobs, but it could be very helpful for landing jobs in the embedded space in the future. And maybe you'll find that you really enjoy the work.

[split citrus]

Yeah I thought so, I was talking to some of my peers and they said to just take it because work experience is more valuable than anything

[summer roost]

Do you know what sort of work they plan to assign you?

[split citrus]

Yes! They told me I would be working on hardwares like protection relays and I would be running test functions on them. More hands on work like understanding like add-ons boards and cpu boards.

[summer roost]

Interesting. Well, the more software that you write for the job, the more helpful it will be for landing future software jobs. So, if those tests are manual, it's much less valuable than if those tests are automated, for instance.

[split citrus]

Yeah I hope so. I believe they did tell me I will be writing some scripts but something not too advanced

[gritty rivet]

This is true. If the actual choice you face is between an internship in another field (esp. a technical field) and zero internship, then it's a no-brainer.

[vapid jay]

hey guys what is yours first programming language and now what language are using right now !

[pine sleet]

Python and Python

[gritty rivet]

Python and Python (you're on a Python server)

Ok, I'll be honest, I did learn Basic and Pascal in high school first

[vapid jay]

i see

[pine sleet]

Yeah I lied too, first was like Java or something

[vapid jay]

what dev are ya ?

[vapid jay]

huh...

[deft herald]

TI-83+ BASIC was my first "language". Then Java i think?.

Of course, Python is what i use now, along with a few others here and there

[fleet reef]

Where the BTW language!???

[small geode]

Visual Basic and Rust

[pulsar drum]

First is Java. At school, the first was Visual Basic. Now I use Java at work, and Python for my own projects.

[junior abyss]

Guys, I'm interested in learn Web3 development (blockchain dev).
Can anyone recommend materials or video tutorials to get started please?

[silver jacinth]

do you guys think companies should have indexable databases publicly avaliable for the history of their employees?

so x person worked at y company would be viewable by everyone

[pulsar drum]

I think in some fields (not CS-specific) it is required. It is for airline pilots in the USA.

Actually, I take that back. There is a database but it's not public? I think it's only available to airline companies.

[silver jacinth]

yeah but should it be broadly for all employers

[wanton birch]

Question:
When job listings list, say, 10 items under required skills/experience. How many should I be matching with before I apply?

[silver jacinth]

hospitals have it

[pulsar drum]

I would have privacy and security concerns if my current employer and past employment history was publicly available.

What problem is this trying to solve though? Is employee misrepresentation of work history a large concern?

[true harness]

I don't think a general number can be given. some requirements are trivial, some aren't

[small geode]

They do not in the way you think. Only for board members and physicians, for example.

[strong lava]

Why?

[small geode]

I'd think the vast majority of people would dislike this massive privacy breach

[brittle crow]

I value privacy.

[lilac quail]

Half of them and I'd apply. More than that and I'll spend a bit more time on it.

[sweet vessel]

It varies a lot, and on your confidence in your skill level in any particular area. I worked with a contractor years ago, and his experience was that he looked for jobs that matched two areas that is he was specifically strong in (his were C++ and distributed systems), and then looked for more matches to other areas (database, target industry), the more matches, the more likelihood that it would be a good fit and pay well (again, he was thinking like a contractor).

[wanton birch]

I see people sharing that info both on professional sites like LinkedIn and not so professional places like FB. Not to mention, this could be made into an opt-in service. So you decide if you want to be listed. We can make it better by allowing employers to register so that you can even control which companies can see your previous experience data.

[small geode]

Those people that share, want to share. It simply shouldn't exist, nor will every company be able to maintain it

[true harness]

isn't that what we have now? you ask the person where they've worked, or look at LinkedIn like you said

[small geode]

Did everyone suddenly forget "references" are a thing that are commonly asked for?

[sweet vessel]

On a separate topic: especially @loud pawn, @sleek egret, and @smoky quest. A few weeks back we had some discussion on this channel about Indeed's apply invitation emails to job seekers, and how they looked like they were impersonating the actual employer even though they were sent from Indeed. This is not really an area of the company that I work directly with, but I did want to speak up in defense of my workplace. I said I would pass these comments along to the team working in this area. I have put together some follow-up notes, is it appropriate to post them here?

[smoky quest]

it's sort of, kind of, already happening through credit reports and stuff

like how over employment was detected at some reporting agency

[small geode]

I don't follow how a US-specific credit monitoring process applies to this?

[wanton birch]

Asking and looking at linkedin isn't verified. The point of such a system would be that you ask your employer to verify your experience there. Although I think companies might say no to this simply because their employees will find it easier to move to another company.

[smoky quest]

it applies in the sense that people already have their employment history tracked

[small geode]

That is evident pretty much everywhere, yes. The point is it isn't public

[smoky quest]

sure!
Props for following up!

[wanton birch]

Yeah. I remember that. I'd love to hear what you have to add to that now 🙂

[smoky quest]

But my point is that companies are able to maintain it

[small geode]

It's not a database the companies themselves are offering?

[sweet vessel]

So here's what happened after our discussion:

I eventually found the product manager for the team that works on this, and forwarded to them a transcript of our chat. You are not alone in your thinking this was a "scammy" thing to do. And my clarification on how these invitations to apply worked was only half-right.

[lilac quail]

Folks, what value would such a system offer?

[smoky quest]

that would be a different claim

[small geode]

That is the claim they made? "do you think companies should have indexable databases publicly available for employee history"

[sweet vessel]

I said that employers were involved in sending out these emails. It turns out there are two ways this happens. One is that the employer gets a list of candidates after posting a job, and they then select who they want to send invitations too. The second is that the employer opts-in for Indeed to do this selection for them, and so Indeed then sends out emails on their behalf.

I want to emphasize that all this is still done with the employer's permission, but it is probably this second mode that has been the cause of much of the negative feedback.

[small geode]

This is what references are for.

[smoky quest]

that was not the claim I was reacting to.
I was reacting to "nor will every company be able to maintain it".
Companies already have to maintain such things and it is shared to some extent

[sweet vessel]

And as I said, you are not alone in this feeling that this is kind of scammy/scummy. When I contacted the product manger, I found that there was an internal ticket opened to address similar feedback that we had already received, and it is currently in the process of redesign on several levels, including things like the UI to the employer and the content of the email, and support notes and FAQs to the job seekers. It was actually getting a fair bit of attention even before my contacting them, but I still added my transcript notes to the internal ticket for their reference.

[small geode]

Then I believe you misunderstand everything I was saying. I was responding to them by saying not every company will be able to maintain their own publicly indexable database of employee history. It was a direct reply

[sweet vessel]

I believe that the changes are now or will shortly be in process, and the team will start doing A-B testing on different approaches to this problem. I hope the redesigned process is less scammy-looking.

[smoky quest]

nice!
That's pretty cool.
Thanks again for following up!

[wanton birch]

So you outed us?

[sweet vessel]

Well, I thought it was legitimate feedback.

[wanton birch]

That's good news indeed!

The sad reality is that I stopped using Indeed as much. I had to go to settings and turn off all notifications just to stop that scammy behaviour. The end result is that now I have no way of benefiting from legitimate and relevant notifications.

[sweet vessel]

I'm marked myself as a follower on the internal ticket, so if there are public details I can share, I'll post them.

[smoky quest]

Even if we are switching the claims to having a publicly indexable information, there are a few schemes that could be implemented.
But that would unlikely go through companies publishing their own data on their own websites

[smoky quest]

you should assume everything said here is public

[wanton birch]

It is okay. I don't mind being blacklisted by Indeed 😛

[small geode]

I don't think anyone was ever switching anything. I'm unsure what you thought I was responding to, or what we all meant. I was just telling the person that asking every single employer, especially some local shops, to keep up their own publicly available database, is itself unrealistic.

[sweet vessel]

I checked the blacklist - you aren't on it, but recursive_error is.

[wanton birch]

I probably have 2 more strikes left then! 😛

[silver jacinth]

so no one falsely states they worked at y company

[small geode]

References

[silver jacinth]

what if they left

[small geode]

They won't be the only person that existed at the company. The employer just calls a main number

[wanton birch]

REfs are too late in the process. This method will filter out junk right from the start.

[small geode]

I've never experienced this.

[wanton birch]

Although I don't see why companies will sign up to do all that work to make it easy for you to get employed elsewhere. That is the number one reason I think this idea sucks.

[silver jacinth]

I see recruiters looking through 200 resumes

[smoky quest]

you can still do reference checks.
That person will be at a different company and say that they were working with you at that other company

[silver jacinth]

don't you see the problem with that

I can just claim I worked at google for 3 years

[wanton birch]

Don't they do background checks in the US?

[small geode]

It's not like they're going to take you at face value....

[smoky quest]

the bar to faking it properly is quite high

and if you are good enough to pass the interview, you don't really have any incentives to lie about your work history

[wanton birch]

I thought you lie about that to get the interview in the first place

Question:
A company said it'd be nice if applicants shared their coding stuff with them. Do you guys think it is okay to list not only my personal projects but also mini projects I've done for courses/certification stuff?

[gritty rivet]

If it helps demonstrate your relevant skills then sure

[pulsar drum]

I don't think it matters what the code was for as long as it demonstrates your skills

[lofty pumice]

you can post anything you think will show your skill and depth of knowledge

[wanton birch]

That's the issue. For example, I've had to use SQL, Pandas, Matlplotlib,etc to complete many of the tasks for the courses. In successfully completing the tasks, I show my familiarity with these tools and that I can actually use them to do meaningful things.

[smoky quest]

• I can already get all that data about their work history without contacting their past employers
• The reference checks also helps me get a color on their interactions, not just the fact they were there
• Someone who tries to fake being at a company will have a hard time to make a coherent story

[brazen island]

Do you want to do data? Do you want to do embedded? Do you want to do pure software?

[wanton birch]

yes

[brazen island]

Yes to which one

[wanton birch]

If I could pick, I'd go more for embedded/pure software than data

[brazen island]

Then focus on that, no?

[wanton birch]

Well I am doing that. The embedded/pure software stuff also aligns pretty well with many of the engineering jobs I apply for.

[silver jacinth]

Yes

[fallow tusk]

If for example i created an ecommerce website or just the back end (api)
Do i need to deploy it to web even thou its not going to be useful like i just created it to say i can make apis

Or i can add projects to resume even when its not deployed?

[radiant moon]

I'd deploy it

doing so is difficult. If you can show that you've deployed it, that's more impressive.

even better would be if you've got a CI/CD pipeline set up, so that as soon as you make a commit to your project, it gets tested and deployed automatically. This is also pretty hard 🙂

[fallow tusk]

Even if its just endpoints and json? So ill deploy it for the purpose of showing that i can do it?

[radiant moon]

yep

ideally write a little toy thing to exercise the endpoints; maybe a single web page with some javascript

[fallow tusk]

Nice thanks
Also i think ill study vue for simple front end

[gritty rivet]

I agree with offby1. You don't need to go crazy building a nice frontend if you're not applying for full stack jobs, but basic deployment skills are important for backend

My main portfolio project is a basic CRUD API with no front end at all, but I did document deployment with a Dockerfile and tests and CI/CD. Do better than me if you can or course 🙂

[fallow tusk]

Im still ignorant about CI/CD, test and dockerfile🥲

[radiant moon]

those are important

maybe not required, but important

[gritty rivet]

It doesn't hurt to apply for jobs with whatever portfolio you have, but in the meantime those are all relatively easy and worthwhile things to learn using your existing project as a start

If you rather work on a frontend first and do these things later, that's fine too. But keep an eye on the job market and make sure you're skillset is in line with the roles you intend to apply for

[wooden pine]

hey is anyone here working a tech job in the UK ?

[smoky quest]

that's part of the point of doing it and having these projects 😉

[fallow tusk]

Most django jobs im seeing are for mid to senior level can i go mid level developer without experience?

[gritty rivet]

Probably a few... Why not ask your actual question?

[gritty rivet]

With a very strong portfolio, it's not impossible. Harder without a relevant degree

[wooden pine]

im kind of scared im going to break the rules idk i was gonna talk about salary progression etc and speak about other areas

i was also going to ask if data anaylst career path is good 😦

[gritty rivet]

No worries, that sounds on-topic to me

[fallow tusk]

Do i need to learn nodejs laravel also if i plan to be a backend developer?

[gritty rivet]

It really depends on what jobs you're looking at but in general I'd say for beginners it's better to know one framework super well then three not very well

I have no intention of learning those anytime soon personally

[fallow tusk]

I want to apply for django developer but it seems in my country php is still popular

[gritty rivet]

You don't necessarily have to chase the most popular thing if pure Django jobs do exist and you want to specialize. Are you not finding enough jobs to apply to?

Like if you can send out 10 or 20 reasonably appropriate job applications per week over multiple weeks, there should be hope there

[fallow tusk]

Yes, i dont see that many job posts and mostly i see senior levels 🥲

[fallow tusk]

This week i have none. last week i sent 7, 1 closed 4 shortlisted 1 i withdrew 1 not viewed

Or i think its last last week

[gritty rivet]

If people use LinkedIn much in your country, I would reach out to junior people working with Django (assuming they exist) and get their advice

[fallow tusk]

Oh this was brilliant

[silver jacinth]

if they exist

[bronze cave]

!paste

[inner wren]

Pasting large amounts of code

If your code is too long to fit in a codeblock in Discord, you can paste your code here:
https://paste.pythondiscord.com/

After pasting your code, save it by clicking the floppy disk icon in the top right, or by typing ctrl + S. After doing that, the URL should change. Copy the URL and post it here so others can see it.

[fallen zenith]

how is a master's degree seen by employers vs a bachelor's?

idk how long it's worth it to stay in college

[deft herald]

Usually it counts as like 2 years exp

so the job reqs might say "BS with 4+ years exp, or MS with 2+ years exp"

But generally there is a (slightly) higher pay potential for those entry level/junior level jobs

[fallen zenith]

but is it more worth it to spend those two years at a college vs at work?

(provided i have the money to get by for said two years)

[deft herald]

Well you might also want to consider the possibility of an employer paying for a master's. many have a program for that

[fallen zenith]

i come from a country where colleges are free

[deft herald]

🤯

[fallen zenith]

former soviet bloc ftw when it comes to education

[deft herald]

I guess all i can say then is would you rather spend 2 years grinding more education or making money?

[fallen zenith]

you got a point there. i guess i can see if anyone hires me with a bachelor's.

[deft herald]

You can always try to get a master's while working, too

[smoky quest]

college years > work years

And since you studied more, it also opens up more doors for more complex jobs

[gritty rivet]

Would you rather have some income now, or would you rather have more income later? A degree can pay returns throughout the rest of your entire career. If you're inclined and financially able to do it now, it is likely to be a worthwhile investment that you may or may not bother to make later if you leave school

[vapid jay]

How do I get an internship?!??!!!

I just want an internship at a good company like visa, or ey or anything lol

[lean sundial]

How old are you?, you should speak to your career programmer if your at school

[true harness]

have you considered applying?

[vapid jay]

My resume is buns

[true harness]

seems like you know where to start

[deft herald]

That's kind of what they expect for internships though - usually it's just a bunch of school-related and personal projects listed

[smoky quest]

Feel free to post an anonymized version for feedback.

Note also that while internships are still tough to find regardless of your level of education, the further you are to your graduation year, the more difficult it is to find one

[sleek egret]

is "buns" good or bad?

[gritty rivet]

I like buns, but I guess it must mean bad?

[sleek egret]

I actually can't tell what most slang means anymore

[buoyant seal]

buns meaning. google helps. according to informal meaning in north american, i think it is bad.

although according to New York slang, it is actually good

oh, u know. i have no idea then. too many slang meanings with opposite meanings. TranslationError. location specific different translations apperently.

[sleek egret]

lol

that means you're officialy an old fart, like me!

[buoyant seal]

https://youtu.be/qGx4VtwMnfM

[vapid jay]

Bad

[vapid jay]

hello

[sleek egret]

ssss hssss sshssss ssss

^ that's "hello" in stnake-talk

[pine sleet]

🗣️

[upbeat zinc]

How old are you I've never heard someone use the word buns to mean good or bad

And I'm like 24

[vapid jay]

Buns means bad my resume is garbage

[gritty rivet]

So you know what to work on, that's good!

You gave me a new catchphrase I plan to use all the time now. If I could hire you just for that, I'd consider it

[true harness]

buns

[vapid jay]

Lol

[wanton birch]

Question:
Agile and CI/CD. Are these things taught to university grads in CSE? I see them in many job adverts. From quick googling, they just come across as ways one might handle their project. What is it and how am I to actually learn it on my own?

[robust island]

I thought it was print("Hello")

[robust island]

I had a brief section of one of my SWE classes on those. Agile is a popular way for companies to tackle a project, CI/CD are processes to automate and test software dev

I might also be butchering the definitions, it was a while ago lol

[wanton birch]

Other than running my own software company and managing it or already being employed at a place where they want me to follow this method, how do I get experience in it though?

[true harness]

there's certifications and shit, but everyone does agile differently. CI/CD, you can definitely learn

[robust island]

For the latter you can check out Github Actions

[summer roost]

Agile is fundamentally about how a team works together. You can't get experience in it without working on a team that uses it.

[wanton birch]

Well! There I lose one point!

[robust island]

You could probably find an open source project that uses agile and is looking for some help

[summer roost]

I've never heard of an open source project using Agile. there might be one, but it wouldn't be common

[true harness]

maybe it exists, but it doesn't make too much sense. open source mostly is contributing when you can

[robust island]

Yeah true

[fleet reef]

(why not?)

[wanton birch]

For now, I've decided to watch some youtube videos on it and familiarise myself with the concepts (Agile, CI/CD) so that if I ever make it to an interview, I can share my thoughts on them. I'll use my time to focus on the other stuff(projects and learning math/physics topics) to build up my existing skill.

[summer roost]

Because Agile is fundamentally a tool for improving team cohesion and development velocity, and open source projects rarely have teams of multiple dedicated maintainers working on the same deliverables who are interested in regularly investing time on improving how they work together

[lucid vapor]

the way OSS is organized tends to be wildly different from companies in general. companies are top-down. you have work, you find people to do that work. OSS tends to be bottom-up. you find people, and the people work on what they want to work on. it's "the people" who decide what gets done more than the maintainers in many cases.

now i don't fully understand agile and whatnot (i'm far from the industry) but i don't think it's really compatible with that

[summer roost]

it's not totally incompatible - the core contributors of an OSS project could decide to focus effort on maintaining their development velocity and working better as a team. But... once you start doing that, it becomes harder to convince yourself that it's a hobby and not a responsibility. 🙃

[wanton birch]

Wait! My OS is some people's hobby!?!?

[lucid vapor]

depends. windows and macos are made by companies, and i'm sure it's a funded full-time job for (at least some of) the people who maintain linux. if you're using something else, It Depends, but many large open source projects do get funding for some of the maintainers from companies.

[unreal turtle]

Is it hard to move to preferred location for swe jobs?

[wanton birch]

Are you asking if YOU will find it difficult to relocate to wherever the job wants you to be located at?

[dreamy spade]

I read a position that’s 35 hours per week. Is that standard in Tech?

[summer roost]

most US jobs are 40 hours per week. Some companies do less, some do more. 🤷‍♂️

[unreal turtle]

Ye

[summer roost]

how would we know how much trouble it would be for you to move?

[unreal turtle]

We spend 1/3 of our life working

[unreal turtle]

Im not saying trouble, I’m saying first job offer

[summer roost]

I don't think I understand the question, then

[wanton birch]

Please don't take this the wrong way: Is English your first language? Or are you using a translator to write your stuff on here?

[unreal turtle]

Just answer my questions bro

[summer roost]

like I said, I don't understand your question. can you try rephrasing it?

[unreal turtle]

This

[wanton birch]

Your question is asking us if you will find it difficult to move for a job. Do you not see why we cannot answer that?

[unreal turtle]

Nvm you guys aren’t smart I should’ve ask chatgpt

[summer roost]

I can't answer a question that I don't understand

[pine sleet]

😔

[unreal turtle]

What don’t you not understand about that, it’s so simple

What are you trying to say?

[pine sleet]

Shouldn't the answer be obvious then?

[summer roost]

that seems... extremely rude.

[unreal turtle]

I just wanna confirm here

[pine sleet]

We really can't tell you without more information. It depends on a lot of factors

[unreal turtle]

You should ban him, he’s assuming things about me and he doesn’t even know me

[summer roost]

I thought I understood the question, but you told me I didn't:

how would we know how much trouble it would be for you to move?
Im not saying trouble, I’m saying first job offer

[wanton birch]

Removed it out of respect for you all. Meant it more as humour than anything else. He was having a go at people's intelligence, so I thought it was fair!

[unreal turtle]

Like? I’m generally talking about big tech companies

[raven bramble]

As an incoming college freshman, what are some tech - related jobs I can work (perferably on campus) that will buff my resume?

[pine sleet]

Your personal situation, I should've clarified. Sorry.

[unreal turtle]

The only reason why I said that cause I was frustrated about you not understanding my simple questions

[wanton birch]

You say that after saying a few messages ago that nobody here is smart!

[unreal turtle]

You deserve to be banned

[pine sleet]

It can vary from person to person, based on situation of course. Some may find it no trouble at all, some might find it to be a no-go for a job

[unreal turtle]

I never said that

[summer roost]

internship, research assistant, teacher's assistant, tech support

[summer roost]

I still don't understand your question. Again: can you try rephrasing it to help me understand?

[raven bramble]

well obviously id want some internships as the main goal but for my first couple of years that may not be an option, so im looking for alternatives that can help me get those internships>
as for being a research assistant, have u had experience in the feild? do you know how i could get started or what type of work i'd be doing? does it require experience?

[summer roost]

research assistants help professors with whatever research they're conducting. What opportunities are available will depend on what professors at your school are working on, as will the type of work you'd be doing. The best way to get into it is to have good grades, make a good impression on your professors, and ask around near the end of the semester to find out whether any of your professors can point you towards a job

[raven bramble]

is a 4.0 in university a realistic goal lol
i got it in middle school and high school taking honors/ap classes but idk if its too much of a stretch for college

[summer roost]

it's possible. It's a lot tougher than doing it in high school. And many people who got straight A's in high school struggle a lot in college, when they need to learn material that comes less naturally for them. A lot of gifted people manage to make it through high school without ever learning to study.

[wanton birch]

Of course it is doable. I managed to do really well but I kind of regret it now. I should have put less emphasis on "acing" and more on other practical matters like @summer roost here is trying to guide you into considering. I was way more stupider then and thought to myself that simply graduating at the top of one's class guarantees anything. It doesn't. Not to mention that the fixation over hitting a GPA can distract you from the grandest of all goal. Learning. Understanding.

When you are at uni, see what topics interest you and talk to your tutors about getting involved with more hands on things relating to that. A lot of universities have clubs that work with the departments. You can join them and learn by doing things. @raven bramble

[raven bramble]

thanks so much for the advice 🙏

[surreal mica]

hello @all, I am going to the USA for pursuing my master's in CS. can anyone please help me with some tips about how I should approach my studies in order to land a good internship and what type of projects should I focus on more. I am thinking of getting a specialization in the ML and data science domain. any help would be highly appreciated, thanks!!

[buoyant seal]

!rule 9 , <@&831776746206265384> this is a fresh account created for adds only it looks like. web3 is kind of additionally fishy looking like (what is web3? xD) lets erase this msg as it is.
Oh, it is rule 6 actually about adds too.

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[vapid jay]

Given the advancement of artificial intelligence. It can be said that there will be less people getting hired for a role in programming where only the best gets hired. How can I ,who may be new, increase my chances of getting hired?

[vapid jay]

So, how do I become a programmer that fulfills/satisfies clients requests? How can I practise this?

How does a programmer become irreplacable?

[inner wren]

Bad argument

Could not convert "user" into UnambiguousMember or UnambiguousUser.
14d is not a User mention, a User ID or a Username in the format name#discriminator.

[tranquil birch]

!tempban 1100891485320261643 14d It seems like you're only here to promote your services. Read our rules and code of conduct before you come back.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @surreal kiln until <t:1687521519:f> (14 days).

[tranquil birch]

thanks!

[buoyant seal]

programmer is already not replacable and not going to be in nearby future replacable.
it will take far more advanced AI than current AI limitations can offer to make that happen.
in which case we could be having Terminator 2: Judgement Day and having other problems to deal with

just learn the relevant skills for having at least middle level in your skills and u will be already secure in your job

[vapid jay]

I see, I am just concerned given the massive amounts of layoffs in tech companies.

It'll be kind of funny if i get hired for a week before i have to leave 😂

[vapid jay]

Thank you

[dense fiber]

I wonder what was the reason with the high rate of tech job layoffs

some I've read including the high hiring rate during the pandemic and now they "don't need them anymore" to the AI arguments which I still think lacking to actually be a developer

[gritty rivet]

On the high end, I think it's indeed mostly over-hiring during recent years. On the low-end, AI has contributed in some cases. The scale of the layoffs has been exaggerated a bit in people's minds I think based on various factors like the buzz around AI, the high profile of big tech companies, and the contrast with what came before.

[lilac quail]

There are multiple causes. The high hiring rate during Covid was made with an ever-increasing business forecast in mind. End-customers are more aware of their money and spending less with the recent world events, so these companies have to adjust budgets down, and IT is part of that. As a result, the (Microsoft or Google to take the largest as examples) customers companies are also getting contracts down, re-adjusting their subscriptions tiers down, etc.

• IT companies in direct relationship with the end-customer were greatly impacted: Spotify, Netflix...
• IT companies having other companies for customers are also impacted: Atlassian, Salesforce...
  So when you hire thinking there will be a 50% growth, and there is actually only a 10% growth, laying off employees to survive as a company becomes a viable option.

[wanton birch]

Took advice from you guys to find groups to meet-up with for networking and came across this:

[dense fiber]

i guess it is also a lesson of how or what is company loyalty, since i guess some people are laid off by no fault of their own and it must've caused some level of distrust

can't fault the business either because they're there to make money

[lilac quail]

Better sometimes to take dramatic measures as a company instead of making hundreds (if not thousands) of people believe that the future is bright just to declare bankruptcy a few months later.

[sleek egret]

the future's so bright, you gotta wear shades

[lilac quail]

I didn't check the layoffs for the last 2 months, it decreased but big names are still there.

https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/05/tech-industry-layoffs-2023/

Another 200 bros at Spotify 😦

[dense fiber]

is there a list on what their position was on said companies

[lilac quail]

Nah, the deepest insight is per 'tech company'

they could be firing the whole HR department, we wouldn't really know

[dense fiber]

make sense

[summer roost]

I agree with pretty much everything here but the last sentence. "to survive" should be "to maximize profit". None of the companies that you named needed layoffs in order to continue to exist, only to hit their earnings estimates.

[lilac quail]

At the same time, if they don't hit they earnings estimate, the stock (if public) goes back to 0, everything that you potentially gave your employees is worth nothing, etc. You have to hit these estimates to survive in a highly innovative-competitive world.

[summer roost]

No, the stock goes down, but it absolutely doesn't go to 0. Companies miss their earnings estimates all the time

[lilac quail]

Well it goes to 1.01? 😄

[summer roost]

Stocks only go to 0 when a company has more debts than assets, and investors don't see a path to pay off the debts

We're getting into the weeds, though. All I meant to point out is that none of the huge companies you named were at any risk of bankruptcy if they didn't have layoffs.

[lilac quail]

Yeah I still agree with you, I was naming known companies for the example

[dense fiber]

it was indeed an exercise of maximizing profits

i guess that's why work-life balance is important

[lilac quail]

Not so true for the smaller tech companies, that sometimes didn't even have a positive cash-flow when the crisis started yet

That's also something to take in consideration for the smaller actors, when the growth start peaking, it's either you reinvest almost everything back into the growth, or you're probably gonna lost to competitors doing the same thing. So yeah back to that last senteence, if you forecasted 50% growth YoY and you're left out with a mere 10%... 🫤

[dim bay]

may be out of scope: + guys do you think programmers usually overthink real life situations ?

[lilac quail]

No, the others are underthinking everything.

[deft herald]

I don't think it's specifically correlated to programmers. Maybe some personality trait that often overlaps with programmers though

Maybe you could say Engineers in general

[lilac quail]

On a more serious note, it's not that much about over or under thinking, it's more about seeing the world as an Engineer/Dev or whatever that makes you think like one.
The engineer will see a bike as a great machine that can help to demonstrate many concepts in physics. But what is overthinking then?
If you define it as 'thinking about something without a point', then it feels like wasting time and energy. But if you're actively thinking about how something works and how you would improve it, then you probably have at least one target, which is to have a better understanding of the system.
Sometimes we might say it's pointless to 'overthink' about something, but I think that it's actually what excites us and picks our brain. In my opinion, people claiming such populations 'overthink' real-life problems are just pointing at a people that are more curious than themselves on some topics.

[gritty rivet]

I prefer to call it "attention to detail" 😅

[deft herald]

We (programmers, engineers) are used to solving problems that are very concrete and have usually well-defined parameters (if they don't, then we can spend energy defining them at least). In the real world, this often isnt the case (basically any conflict you'll come across within a personal relationship), though we (I) try to treat these issues like they are concrete. That's where you can get yourself into trouble "overthinking" something

[lilac quail]

Artists would have a fantatic eye for details as well. I don't know if anybody would describe them as overthinking

[dim bay]

main problem of overthinking is it delays dicision making

[dim bay]

This is very well explained, sometime we just try to get every data point required as it requires in programming, in real life situations are so vague and complex you need lot of gut feeling, risk taking to make dicision

[deft herald]

yeah exactly

[harsh river]

because it's YOU question, other people can't answer it for you since they aren't you.

[lilac quail]

Depends imo, I've found myself being sometimes way faster making a decision because it was based on actual, physical, measurable caracteristics of an event or an item than the people taking decisions based on aspects way more subjective: colors, aesthetics, feelings...

[dim bay]

ya, if there are measurable characteristics then that decision making is not hard, even for non-programmer who knows basic math it's file, but most real life especially those having max impact on life decisions , like people relations, passion/enthusiasm based goals and most other Joys of life have one or many subjective factors included, that cannot be measure, may be choosing insurance policy with calculated risk on every factor is easy for us

[deft herald]

A lot of what we're describing here is called "wisdom". That's that "gut feeling" you were talking about

There's a difference between that and logical reasoning

[radiant moon]

"Agile" describes a way of managing teams -- daily "standup" meetings, a "sprint board", and stuff like that. But, traditionally, open-source projects don't "manage" the participants like that; instead, they just accept patches from whoever, and accept or reject them, as they come in

[dense fiber]

Id like to live like this

[vapid jay]

So if I have a decent resume

I can get a cyber security internship this fall

[true harness]

seems reasonable

[near ocean]

Is that a question?

[deft herald]

I doubt that any cyber security interns get jobs with crappy resumes

[true harness]

probably not even decent ones, tbh

[split citrus]

Did you guys have an easier time finding a job after having one internship or was the process still the same for you guys?

[true harness]

the few people i've talked to have all agreed that internships have helped

[split citrus]

Also, if my job isn't really in the cs field should I try to make it cs related on my resume or should i just be honest for what I did.

[true harness]

you should highlight the relevant parts. if it's not relevant, you don't have to include it. but don't lie, it's bad for you

[split citrus]

Yeah that was what I was thinking.. the internship is still in the tech field but its dealing with more hardware than software stuff though