career-advice

[buoyant seal]

<@&831776746206265384>

[summer roost]

!cban 1052385120088236093 crypto scam

[inner wren]

:x: User is already permanently banned (#88868).

[deft herald]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[deft herald]

Check out the resources. Also, this channel is for career discussion

[boreal frigate]

sure, thankyou

[ivory iron]

Heya I got a question, after you land your first internship (assuming you didn’t do a compsci degree) are you kinda set? Like can you leverage that experience for more internships/or a job and then just be in the industry?

[dreamy shadow]

No. Especially without a degree. Companies would still take degree over one internship.

[true harness]

in the US at least, you typically wouldn't get an internship without being in a CS program, or something sufficiently mathy

[ivory iron]

What even if I had like an extensive Git n stuff? Like always prioritise degree

[true harness]

BS holders have extensive Git n stuff

[dreamy shadow]

Even with a extensive portfolio. A hierarchy would look something like: Multiple YoE + Degree > Degree + intern > Degree > intern only.

Statistically speaking, your much better off with a degree over an internship

[ivory iron]

My med degree is fucking useless 😭😭😭

[true harness]

not necessarily

[dreamy shadow]

Bruh. BRUH. Degree in CS >>>>>> Degree of any kind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No degree
Even if not relevant field, always start with stating you have a degree.

Degree is about having a paper that says: "This person can suffer through 4 years of bs learn on their own"

[ivory iron]

Yeah true

So what’s the path look like? Get 2 internships or so to get like 1-2 yoe then hope to land a real job and then set cause experience? Or is it gonna be tougher than that?

[deft herald]

FWIW, i neither have a degree in CS nor did i have any internships and I somehow landed a job writing software. So those things aren't 100% necessary, though they do help

Degree is about having a paper that says: "This person can suffer through 4 years of bs learn on their own"
100% agree with this.

The most important part is being able to demonstrate you have the required knowledge listed on the job description. Does the job ask for familiarity with python and version control? Then list a project on your resume that you worked on that involved both

[dreamy shadow]

Do you have work experience with your med degree?

[smoky quest]

however the degrees of plausibility is vastly different, and so are the opportunities and compensation

[ivory iron]

Only in uni stuff, I realised I wanted to do CS halfway through my last year lol just had to finish up the degree cause obviously I couldn’t swap

Did some research grant stuff in summer last year, Nothing relevant to coding :(

[dreamy shadow]

Uh, well. Realistically, that and your git profile and your non-relevant degree should put you behind CS graduates. It's not the worst spot to be, but it will be an uphill battle.

[smoky quest]

I haven't read through the whole conversation, but are you also interested in adjacent fields that combine CS with your degree?

there is a whole industry around healthcare and data/code

[dreamy shadow]

Don't do it, don't suggest Data Science 😭

[ivory iron]

Not really, I mean data is data so I suppose I could use medical field stuff instead of crime rates or anything. I’m not keen on data science stuff though to be honest

[dreamy shadow]

But yea, do leverage your knowledge in medical field. So maybe apply for coding based jobs at companies tied to medical. You should have an advantage there.

[ivory iron]

Ah like use it as a stepping stone for experience then shift again to what I like more with experience?

[smoky quest]

yeah.
It's about the distance function between your profile and the target role. It's no different than if the roles were reversed: I have a cs degree and want to get into your medical field without education, skills and knowledge. Why would someone hire me? Or even talk to me?
But if I have some other knowledge relevant to the job, that may bring me close enough that they are willing to deal with my downsides

[ivory iron]

Ahhhh yeah that makes sense, guess I’ll add those types of jobs to my application sprees haha, thank you I appreciate it

[strange quail]

Use your current experience as a common ground when applying to various jobs that also share common ground with you. As noted, there are many companies looking to hire software developers in the medical sector. By referencing your knowledge of Healthcare it could mean getting your foot in the door vs the one who is just fresh out of a one or two year program with no additional experience of any kind.

Not to mention you will have the benefit of understanding how some of the items that use software operate and can better visual how to work with them. Or come up with other suggestions that you think would be a benefit to that sector that someone without medical experience would never think of.

Always play to your strengths. It'll keep you calm in interviews, while also illustrating how you can use them to be effective regardless of the situation.

[ivory iron]

Thank you I’ll certainly try to apply that !

[modern ore]

Math degree Better

[peak halo]

better for what?

[modern ore]

Anything

[boreal lark]

Bioinformatics is your friend. There are not that many people who know enough about both biology and code to be able to use computational methods to correctly interpret biological data.

I think it is perfectly possible to shift towards a more data analysis oriented position in the medical/life science sector.

[summer roost]

!cban 1034391802943393842 gore

[inner wren]

:ok_hand: applied ban to @reef ivy permanently.

[vapid jay]

My buddy gone😞

[vapid jay]

no lifer

python owner -> making a bot made with javascript -> gets hated on

[smoky quest]

!ot

[inner wren]

Off-topic channel

#ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[dreamy spade]

I agree

[peak halo]

not sure why someone would disagree

[wanton birch]

Before I axe it: so none of you have an overview at the start of your resumes?

Funny enough, that alone might help me stand out 🤣

[leaden jasper]

There was nothing I could put there that wasn't in the rest of my resume. It felt clunky to me and took away space for things I deemed more important. But that's for my personal experience and my own resume

[wanton birch]

Also, considering I submit a cover letter with most applications, I think the overview becomes a bit redundant there

[true harness]

to me the overview is basically just fluff. can't really say anything concrete

[supple mulch]

Hey everyone!

Does anyone know of any internships for high schoolers based on python

[pine sleet]

Which year of high school?

[peak halo]

you won't really find any internships that are "based on python". python is never the part people care about. it's about whatever you're trying to make, which might be in python.

[supple mulch]

I am in year 12, i have year 13 as well

[peak halo]

what country is this?

[supple mulch]

is it possible to join any projects for creating something

[supple mulch]

I am in UAE

[pine sleet]

I'm assuming this isn't the US? I don't really know how the education system is in other countries - what age would this year be?

[supple mulch]

I am 16 now but actually people would be 17-18 by now. I joined early...

[pine sleet]

Ah gotcha. Then yeah, there aren't too many oppurtunities available to you at the moment. Not to say there aren't any, it's just rare. You could try asking around (e.g local community college's career center or maybe your high school) to see if they have any oppurtunities. The best thing now is to keep up your grades and work on projects to strengthen your skills :)

[vapid jay]

Who can help with the code, I don't know what's missing

[peak halo]

try opening a thread in #1035199133436354600. Be sure to ask a complete question that someone can start answering right away.

[vapid jay]

there is no solution

[peak halo]

if there's no solution, then why ask for help?

[vapid jay]

Maybe I can send the code to someone and they can tell me what the problem is

[peak halo]

you can post the code in #1035199133436354600 and explain what the problem is. and then maybe someone can help you figure out the solution.

(though it is a Friday night in north america and europe, so there might not be many people around to answer rn)

[vapid jay]

stelercus

can you help me solve the problem

[smoky quest]

Is it a career related problem?

[vapid jay]

no

maybe he can help solve the problem with the bot

[smoky quest]

then why do you spam?

[vapid jay]

I'm not spaming...

[smoky quest]

you are posting unrelated content and advertising for your unrelated problem. That is called spam.
You should check #❓｜how-to-get-help to get better help for your problem

[vapid jay]

ok

I did so, the man replied telling me what to do, I did so and nothing changed and then he stopped writing again

[summer roost]

if you're doing cover letters, I definitely wouldn't do an overview section.

[pastel thunder]

do Faang take just graduated emgineer for ML/data scientist role?

[smoky quest]

comparing to?

[pastel thunder]

for sde role seems much prevelant

[smoky quest]

well then no.
They also hire people with past experience

[pastel thunder]

how many years of exp for faang "at least"? i think research in good journal make it easy

[smoky quest]

from 0 to 60

[smoky quest]

can you give more context in your situation?
I get it you are trying to get into a faang

The biggest improvement to your chances will be a degree in CS

[pastel thunder]

I have bachelors, major: mechanical, minor: robotics and AI
excellent internships/ research exp
not yet published a paper

My intuition is to get into faang ASAP, i have 2 ways:
MSCS at good univ then faang
Get job, get exp, then faang

[smoky quest]

then you can either build some projects to help show you are a software engineer at heart.
Or you can double down on your mechanical/robotics and apply for these types of jobs there

Oh yeah, you could go into a MS that is more about CS

[pastel thunder]

have excellent projects also in ML,SDE,robo, mech.

[smoky quest]

but tbh, I would aim for tech rather than faang.

[pastel thunder]

to learn skill you mean?

[smoky quest]

then I am sure you will have no problem being picked by a faang

[pastel thunder]

even with no exp, currently?

[smoky quest]

no, in general.
There isn't anything special at faangs

[modern ore]

@pastel thunder you’ll get better advise on cscareer dev Reddit 😹

But it’s cringe to chase after faang

[vapid jay]

why is it cringe?

[boreal frigate]

Hi, I am starting to learn data science but i have absolutely zero prior expertise in other software fields for example web development etc. Is it okay? or should i learn web development/app development etc first?

[visual heron]

It doesnt rlly have to do with python (my question) although, what do you think about opening a service business for hosting (websites, bots, whatever...) --> Asking for a friend though, just if its a good opportunity to do so? or...

[true harness]

But it’s cringe to chase after faang
@modern ore sez u

[true harness]

it's not a bad idea since many companies do it, and make tons of money

[lilac quail]

No, app development is really not needed for data science work. Especially web dev. It's really not necessary, except if you need to work on such data maybe.

[lilac quail]

80% of the job will be about securing your stuff. This won't be fun if you don't think security is fun 🙂

[visual heron]

Ure right, although anyone has an idea of an online business that makes good profit, and is not challenging in the way that you need to look at many prospects

[pastel thunder]

lmao, going By daily wage worker pay law, they earn more than this.

[near ocean]

Its also cringe to chase after blackrock and twosigma but that doesnt seem to stop certain people

[pastel thunder]

would you work in company named "Yo Hr Consultancy", lmao

[boreal frigate]

sure, thankyou

[dreamy spade]

Damn! Maybe I should have put my CodeWars account on my resume.

[true harness]

link to this page?

[dreamy spade]

https://www.techinterviewhandbook.org/

[graceful mason]

Web development isn't useful, but being able to use APIs (and potentially build them depending on the work you do) can be

[true harness]

Programming languages - If impressive, include your familiarity by the number of lines you have written, for example "Over 10,000 lines"
🥴 a lot of it is pretty reasonable advice, but this one is just...not

[dreamy spade]

Phone calls only please! 😫

[buoyant seal]

Hehe. Getting back to bad managent practices of prehistoric times from 20-50 years ago period

[buoyant seal]

It can be easily reformulated to better metric:
Maximum lines of code in application code bases your worked with

[true harness]

that's still terrible

[buoyant seal]

I think it is kind of better one. There is difference to work with small or big applications.
This difference is probably quite blurred after some point though
Kind of little difference for dev between big and super big

[true harness]

i don't think so. there's no distinction in quality, impact, or really anything with just lines of code. and if it's just talking about the codebase you worked on, it doesn't even attribute anything to you

[dreamy spade]

Wow that’s pretty cool. Even if you don’t get an offer, at least you got to travel somewhere without paying.

[robust barn]

Can anyone recommend any good internships that still accept applications and don’t require a lot of experience in python?

[true harness]

internships in general don't require experience

[lean sundial]

I'm not capping lol

I studied 10+ a day focusing and boom got in

I got my own apartment aswell at 18 , to be honest sfw isn't as "relaxing" as people thinks - it's so stressful

It was a serious message

It's just more that I was so hungry for getting it I got it

[true harness]

can you describe what you did during your apprenticeship? i'm not familiar with the term

[lean sundial]

I'm still 2 months in

I got a free bootcamp though after getting in the apprenticeship so they covered 10k and I'm getting paid 33k

I work in a really hard team though with 16 tools (technologies and languages etc)

That's a part of the office^ It's really huge

(Also just to say I forgot all i know about python 😓 )

I*

[ivory iron]

So what’s the problem you are facing? @lean sundial

[lean sundial]

The work is so hard, like holy it is way different than people think it would be

[ivory iron]

It’s only a learning curve, you’ll be fine, work hard, ask questions and learn from it. Don’t worry about it

Maintain the same effort you did before to get the apprenticeship and then some, and you’ll be okay :)

[lean sundial]

I am doing more than that

I do 16 hours on average but its still not enough, I will get there though

[true harness]

16 hours...per day?

[lean sundial]

But thats on me^ not the company

The company is the 2nd best place to work in (official rankings) - the people there are amazing, theres free drinks (free food sometimes), events etc

[ivory iron]

Perfectly flawless routine eating, travel time and walking around are all incorporated into the coding routine, blinking is prohibited

[gritty rivet]

We don't know what country you're in or anything else, and this isn't a job board. If you're a university student there should be a career center or something similar to point you in the right direction

[whole girder]

hi

[scarlet timber]

Hi

[peak halo]

hello @whole girder @scarlet timber and welcome to the career discussion channel, for talking about job-related stuff

[scarlet timber]

I'm new here...

[lilac quail]

That's why he said welcome ☝️

[scarlet timber]

So what all do we do here?

[peak halo]

this is the career discussion channel, as I said. if you just want to talk about python, go to #python-discussion

[scarlet timber]

So can u give me career advises?

[peak halo]

I don't know anything about you, so I can't.

[scarlet timber]

What do you wanna know?

[peak halo]

your country, level of education, work history. and goals

[scarlet timber]

Im from India, I am student, I have expertise in Python and a couple of other languages, but I am currently studying right now. I wanna know if I can get any work (freelance) that I can do to finance my studies. I have great knowledge of frameworks like Flask, Tensorflow, Kivy, etc.

[last rapids]

What of Django ?

[scarlet timber]

Django, I never tried it, but I think I can do it well.

[gritty rivet]

You can look at sites like Upwork and Fiverr to bid for clients but the reality is that it's very competitive. You're probably better off looking for internships

[scarlet timber]

Can I find clients on discord?

[peak halo]

Perhaps, but not on this server.

[scarlet timber]

Can u suggest any servers for that?

[sleek egret]

unlikely

[scarlet timber]

Oh ok

Then, can anyone say some interesting new open source projects I can contribute to

[sleek egret]

there are thousands of them

[fleet reef]

Tens of thousands!
Hundreds!

[sleek egret]

astounding

[peak halo]

this isn't a meme channel. neither are any of our other channels.

[brittle ledge]

Python is not my main language, but this seems like an excellent place to ask anyways. Im going into freshman year of college with an intermediate level of programming knowledge. I can build a small website in node with express, and I have a decent grip on concepts in general. What is a good way to monetize my skills? I know there are freelance websites, they seem very competitive. Should I try to build my own website; should I go to a certain place to find good internships? I don’t know… Any recommendations and advice is really appreciated

[summer roost]

sounds like you're in the US, and have graduated high school? The best way to make money as a college student in the US is internships, research assistantships, teachers assistantships, tutoring, etc. Assuming you're pursuing a STEM degree, at least.

[brittle ledge]

Yes, I am US. Going to be a CS student. Where should I be looking for internships, research etc. also it’s my understanding tutoring is entirely the student’s responsibility

[summer roost]

for research and teaching assistant opportunities, do well in your classes, and ask your profs if they have any research assistant or teaching assistant positions open. Odds are reasonably high that they will, and if you're ahead of your peers they'll be happy to have you working on them. For tutoring, you can do that independently. It'd pay better than freelancing, since it's inherently local (people usually prefer a tutor who can sit in down in the same room as them and walk them through a problem, or at the very least someone who fluently speaks the same language and is therefore able to explain concepts), and that helps mitigate the "race to the bottom" effect that you have with freelancing where freelancers with entry-level skills are competing with people across the globe for the same positions, against people who are able to work for far, far less than someone in the US profitably could.

[brittle ledge]

This is diverging a bit, but what classes would you recommend freshman year. Im hoping to knock out some higher level maths, and some gen ed requirements, but I’m very unsure for actual major related classes. Its a smaller school so I wont have access to everything, but I know there are entry level networking and computer architecture type stuff.

[summer roost]

you generally don't have a lot of flexibility on actual major-related classes - they tend to have prerequisites enforced so that, unless you can test out of a class entirely, you're forced to take it before any that depend upon it. If you can't advance through your in-major courses faster than you'd like, you may be able to advance through math faster. Beyond that, I'd suggest picking up gen ed classes that are most likely to be useful to you in the real world. Things like economics, english composition, psychology, debate, etc, etc

[brittle ledge]

That makes sense. Are there any clubs or organizations I should be aware of, or should I just focus on coursework and look for opportunities through professors?

[summer roost]

your school will probably have a math and computer science club, or just a computer science club. That'd definitely be worth joining. Possibly a competitive programming team, too. But also, part of college is finding yourself, figuring out what things you most like and don't like, and exploring new stuff. So, join groups that interest you, make friends, network and build relationships. Your classmates in your CS program will likely be the first people you're comfortable comparing job offers with, for instance, which is gonna be one of the first ways that you learn how to evaluate whether a particular job offer might be undervaluing you, or whether your salary is keeping up with your peers

[brittle ledge]

Thank you, I appreciate your time, it’s very helpful talking to experienced individuals before starting college. Ill keep your advice in mind when I pick my courses.

[pastel thunder]

i have internship experience(2 years in total), what should i say? yes or no? Were they trying to say "full time"

[summer roost]

"total work experience" doesn't mean anything to me, but - "yes", I guess? 🤷‍♂️

[pastel thunder]

and also should i say i need assistance in relocation? will they withdraw offer if i say i am planning to relocate but then say need assistance later on when selected.

[summer roost]

possibly. Personally, I wouldn't lie: if you are willing to relocate, but wouldn't do so without relocation assistance, I'd say so right from the start to save everyone time.

[pastel thunder]

i mean for me it will always be better to have assistance but i will definitely fund it myself if they dont (given offer is great).

[summer roost]

I'm not sure what to advise, then, to be honest. Maybe someone else has a suggestion.

[pastel thunder]

also apart from what to choose, employer had to ask some key question that would help filter candidate. So these questions most probably were deciding factors right? and if a company is more concerned about relocation expense, is it wrong to think that they might also be too frugal in other perks such as holidays/ insurance/ PF etc?

[summer roost]

no, it's totally reasonable to think that, I think. Companies usually either offer relocation assistance to everyone (at least, everyone moving from a certain minimum distance) or no one, in my experience. It's seems weird to me that they're asking you if you need it.

[upper basalt]

i want to start doing internships but i have no idea where to start
i am currently pursuing bachelor's CS (first year) and i have somewhat of a good idea about python
i am scared of what the others will think firstly. I have never worked with a team and i have very few projects and no resume to show to anyone.
if someone is free enough to make me understand how i can get over this fear i would really appreciate that.
when i say i have python knowledge, what i mean is i fully understand the basic syntax with almost all the necessary inbuilt libraries (though it would be really helpful if someone points out all the inbuild libraries required like typing and abc) but do i need to master some specific library to land an internship? should i widen my skills and start learning other languages as well?

maybe i should start making some projects to highlight on my resume? but i have no idea what kind of projects i could even make that would help to make an outstanding resume

[pastel thunder]

after going through internships and now looking for jobs, I have realised : as far as internships are concerned there are definitely many interviewers out there who are willing to offer candidate a chance if they seems original and shows some interest in their work.

And yes, to sound original, you will have to make projects. Just know what you claim to know, mention you are "genuinely looking to learn more" and "are interested in the work they do". You dont need to answer everything.

[upper basalt]

Do the projects I work on also reflect my personality or character? Shouldn't I create something that demonstrates my maturity to potential employers?

Would creating a Discord bot or developing a website with real-time statistics potentially influence how employers perceive me?

[modern ore]

I chase after da bag and clout

[pastel thunder]

yes, the harder, bigger the project, the better. But no need to sweat it too much, just make decent project and know what you made and how you made.

[pastel thunder]

i know some kids, they say, they had some less relevant projects were great, but some basic projects(with were relevant). But they were able to convince the interviewee of their "efforts" and willingness to delve deeper

and so they got the offer

[upper basalt]

Do you have any example that would be a valuable topic to make project on? I am really confused with what to work on

[pastel thunder]

what domain are you interested in?

[upper basalt]

Showing the interviewee that i would be commited to a task won't be that much of a problem but to get my resume even selected would become an issue

[true harness]

internships are mostly about selecting people that have "potential"

[upper basalt]

currently i have gained knowledge of fastapi, PIL and aiohttp. A very specific area but that's all i know currently.

[modern ore]

Mfs look at it based on experience, school, and projects

[upper basalt]

And showing that someone has potential even before a one-on-one meet is very difficult since everything is based off your resume

[pastel thunder]

i am ML oriented. I dont know if you are interedted in it or not. Maybe others can help

[upper basalt]

and that too mostly nowadays

[pastel thunder]

not everyone bro. but i know your pain.

[modern ore]

They’ll reach out to you if they want a niche skill

[modern ore]

It’s mostly, for internships 😝

[upper basalt]

oh definitely please help me. My specialisation in my degree is infact AI&ML

[pastel thunder]

oh cool. where you at currently? what are you doing.

i dont say that often

[upper basalt]

oh well i am in my college dorm and damnn thats a really nice place you work at 👀

[modern ore]

@pastel thunder what school do you go to

[true harness]

US

[upper basalt]

i am currently pursuing bachelor's in CS with AI&ML as my specialisation

[pastel thunder]

i mean how much ML have you covered? i didnt mean physical

[upper basalt]

ahhhhhh
not much i guess only a few theory classes explaning how everything works and basically no practical knowledge

[true harness]

ambitious projects go a long way for that

[upper basalt]

my college sure does have placements

[upper basalt]

and i have no idea what to make

[pastel thunder]

i can recommend you a specialisation at coursera, but it would take time(4 to 6 months), do you think you have the time? do you want internship right now?

[upper basalt]

tbh it isn't much competitive since all my batchmates aren't really THAT interested in coding but i wanted to land some internships before placements

[upper basalt]

that would take a lot of time to complete and i would really love to do that!
please link me up so i could check it out myself

[pastel thunder]

they maybe good at hiding, never believe your classmates arent going to be a competition.

[upper basalt]

technically i could but i am not really sure if i should take that route since that would make me dependable on the college than making me work on my own for the future jobs

[upper basalt]

oh maybe you are right
they are good at hiding alcohol bottles anyways

[modern ore]

@true harness did you start yet

[upper basalt]

@pastel thunder why delete your messages?

[spark cobalt]

Woo my intern starts next week, gonna be fun

[true harness]

@true harness did you start yet
@modern ore start what

[modern ore]

Your internship

[pastel thunder]

i confuse nitro booster with founders/lead then assume your 50 yr old doing intern next week

[true harness]

Your internship
@modern ore yes

[spark cobalt]

Apparently we got some guy from some program where underprivileged kids sign up or whatever. So could be a real hit or miss.

[modern ore]

Is it remote

[true harness]

Is it remote
@modern ore hybrid

[spark cobalt]

We're hybrid as well

[modern ore]

Did they provide housing???

[upper basalt]

what exactly is hybrid

[true harness]

Did they provide housing???
@modern ore no

[upper basalt]

like why not work at one place rather than working from two different places

[spark cobalt]

Some days remote, some days in office. Typically in office days are set days of the week, like 2-4 days a week

[spark cobalt]

There's pros and cons in working remotely and in office. You get kinda the best of both in hybrid.

[true harness]

I like hybrid because I hate commuting

[spark cobalt]

In office allows for collaboration to happen much better than through a zoom call for example, however much of the other work that's asynchronous can be at home or wherever

[upper basalt]

ahhh so important meetings could be held offline while day to day work can be done remote

[spark cobalt]

Depends from team to team, and that the meeting is for. All Hands are important, but generally done online.

[true harness]

also, it lets me tune out whenever my manager keeps droning on about useless stuff that isn't related

[spark cobalt]

[modern ore]

How much is 1l

[spark cobalt]

I just like the freedom to work wherever I want and the company model being able to support it both.

[pastel thunder]

that last % is equity

[true harness]

it's in the standups too!

[spark cobalt]

[modern ore]

Damn you paying for a airbnb?

[true harness]

huh. what does that percentage mean? i see you say "equity", but i don't get it

[spark cobalt]

Clearly means 99.99% equity

[pastel thunder]

they are offerring 99.999% equity to one that gets the offer

[modern ore]

I’ve been doing daily stand up, just to say I’m writing a design doc 😹😹😹😹😹

[true harness]

uh, so is that like, 99.999% of the company, or..

[pastel thunder]

the owner get remaining 0.0001 of company

[true harness]

Damn you paying for a airbnb?
@modern ore no

[spark cobalt]

That means they have no hope for the company

[spark cobalt]

Oh shit you just reminded me, I need to write docs for the intern.

He's gonna be working on the product I lead, and we have no guides onto like our development workflow, or anything. Reason being is our team is too small that no one felt like writing one up

[true harness]

all the people in my office have been working there for about the same amount of time that i've been alive. there's literally no documentation for onboarding because for everyone that was literally a lifetime ago. so i've been trying to do that on the side

[spark cobalt]

[gritty rivet]

You're making hybrid sound awful, I'm 100% remote 😉

[spark cobalt]

I just know that when I started, people saying things verbally was great, but often having a reliable reference lets me confidently know what to do

[pastel thunder]

what do you need that doc for?

[spark cobalt]

For the intern.

[true harness]

lol. due to offshore people, team-wide meetings are pretty much always through teams

[spark cobalt]

Assuming he's here to actually learn and make impact, I'd like for him to be able to take ownership and be able to learn how to navigate for himself.

[pastel thunder]

i meant documentation for onboarding
@true harness what is it for

[spark cobalt]

If he's here to just add shit to CV, probably a pump and drop

[true harness]

to onboard people?

[pastel thunder]

procedure? T&C?

[modern ore]

@true harness did you have to rent something?

[spark cobalt]

Things like installing VPN, joining the GitHub organization, training videos, like the 30 apps the company uses (Slack, Box, Atlassian, Office, Zoom, etc.)

[pastel thunder]

oh, that.

[spark cobalt]

Onboarding can be a pretty tedious procedure. Typically takes about 1-3 weeks to then be able to start working on a ticket

[true harness]

@true harness did you have to rent something?
@modern ore no

[spark cobalt]

Is it local? And I'm assuming you're living with parents rn?

[modern ore]

Mf just saying yes or no😹

[spark cobalt]

I mean you are asking yes or no questions

[true harness]

Mf just saying yes or no😹
@modern ore you keep asking yes or no questions 😛

[spark cobalt]

I have to go to work early to meet intern, that's gonna suck ass

[true harness]

yeah, about a 40-60 min commute. yeah.

[modern ore]

Wtf

[spark cobalt]

40?!?!? Holy shit lol

[modern ore]

Mf using the min value 😹😹😹😹

[sleek egret]

I knew a guy who commuted from philly to NYC for work

90 minutes each way when you risk your life at high speeds

[spark cobalt]

My commute is always min value, so personal bias there I guess. (I never go to work at 9 or leave at 5, or any peak traffic points)

[true harness]

Wtf
@modern ore hm?

[sleek egret]

dedicated staff shows up at 7am and leaves at 9pm

[spark cobalt]

I typically come in at 11-12 and leave at 3-4 or sometimes 6-7. I just do the rest of work at home

[true harness]

finance bro moment

[sleek egret]

so you work 27 hours a day?

[spark cobalt]

Anywhere from 6-10 hours a day

[true harness]

my in-office days are fairly regular, 9-5 or 6. remote days are...a bit less regular. yesterday i worked 5:30 to 2:30

[spark cobalt]

I've been working like midnight to 4 AM, then some off stray 4-6 hours during the day

[sleek egret]

indeed, bond markets open at 8am, so you gotta be in by 7am for the pre-open meeting. markets close at 5pm, then you can have the daily wrap up, speak with clients, do your paperwork, etc. you're out by 8pm if you're lucky, 9pm if you're not

[spark cobalt]

The India branch now bugs me all the time

[true harness]

most of my team is in mexico, which is actually pretty nice wrt timezones

[sleek egret]

mexico has time zones?

[modern ore]

@true harness we going to two sigma together?

[spark cobalt]

Ok back to Minecraft, my worlds Poppin off. Nice to see you guys doin well hopefully

[true harness]

we going to two sigma together?
@modern ore sure dude

i mean realistically, it would be cool to see ~what it's like~

[sleek egret]

what what's like?

[harsh river]

3 or 4

[true harness]

to be a fabled software engineer intern in a quant company, but specifically not a quant

[sleek egret]

if you're in a support role, you won't get paid that well

[modern ore]

Delusional take to say you won’t get paid well at two sigma 💀💀💀

[sleek egret]

the more directly you are involved with making money for the firm, the better paid you will be (assuming you're making the firm money). not everyone makes outsized compensation at such firms.

[modern ore]

Interns get paid $106 an hour with 23k bonus. Ik few ppl there

[sleek egret]

ok

[gritty rivet]

I've had jobs where it took months, 1-3 weeks is probably about as good as it gets 😉

[spark cobalt]

[true harness]

my onboarding lasted like, a day. i was working about halfway through my second day, and my first day was just orientation, lol. all things considered, that's pretty good i think

[turbid bobcat]

@spark cobalt I like your name.

[steady vessel]

Why does my actually bagouse the influence help me

Been awaible was reduced

[red field]

🤔

[vale tangle]

thoughts on a 6 month-old start-up consulting company that wants to build a CI/CD pipeline for Odoo? I got offered a permanent contract off the bat, only have 1 year coding experience on my resume

[smoky quest]

any flag?

[vale tangle]

doesn't seem to be too bad, only it seems that i'm the Odoo expert and i'm gonna be paid as a junior

since the CTO (directly above me as it's only 5 people in the company rn) is a python dev but hasn't had experience deploying Odoo

but I do get a good salary for a junior, good conditions and absolute control over technical decisions when it comes to Odoo

[smoky quest]

you have 1 year of experience. Why would you not be paid as a junior?

[vale tangle]

my concern is the amount of responsibilities they're giving me considering the junior status; my boss doesn't have Odoo experience

[smoky quest]

sounds like a great opportunity for growth and your career

[vale tangle]

oh for sure, but i'm worried they might take advantage of my junior status to overwork me for lower pay

[smoky quest]

but at the same time, you also mention how it would be a good salary for a junior and good conditions

[vale tangle]

that's the upside yes

[smoky quest]

if they wanted to take advantage of you, they would not be providing a good salary and good conditions from the get go.

Note also that while your boss doesn't have odoo experience, it doesn't mean they can't pick it up. They are most likely too busy and need someone to handle that

[buoyant seal]

i think u see mirrages. it looks sounds everything fair so far to me. Odoo is python system, u a python dev, u a asked to build simple CI CD system.
U should be happy and taking your chacnces to be honest. Backend dev given some infrastructure responsibilities, which are often asked to be present in some amount from backend devs at least at.. this level

DevOps stuff and infrastructure as a code quite well synergizes with backend stuff ^_^
u will be able to setup comfortable dev environment for yourself on your own to speed up your work

[vale tangle]

it's not that i can't do it but rather how many responsibilities are involved

[smoky quest]

it's a startup. There will be too many anyway

[vale tangle]

that's fair, i suppose i'm being a little anxious

[buoyant seal]

again should be happy. then faster u have middle-senior level responsibilities, then quicker u will grow to be on
don't be mistaken, it will still take many years to become one. but even exposure once to some stuff is really healthy and experience for a future
quite beneficial to you.

[smoky quest]

There is a choice:

• you decide it's too much responsibilities for you and you don't take the offer
• you take the chance and take the offer

I tend to have a bias towards the second. In most cases that fear is just a fear. And worst case, you learn something, and best case, you succeed

[buoyant seal]

at some point we could even say, you can't become middle-senior ever if u aren't exposed to their duties xD

[vale tangle]

can't succeed without trying i suppose

they seem to be doing things well, considering the clients they've pulled in in just 6 months

[sleek egret]

their product is a "CI/CD pipeline for Odoo"? or are they just using it as part of their process?

[vale tangle]

it's a data consulting company, but for the specific project they're doing, they need it

[sleek egret]

most likely then, there was some misscommunication. more likely, that's just your first project and they'll expect you to be doneish in a few weeks/a couple months at most. then it's on to something else.

unless your boss is a hardass, then he'll expect it done in a few days

simply put, a shop of 5 people does not have the revenue to dedicate a person to CI/CD management

[buoyant seal]

why not? faster CI, faster integration
faster deployments -> faster feedback from people able to make corrections to project directions (with eye for business value)
win win situation that can save... well, a lot of dev time

[sleek egret]

you would dedicate 20% or 25% of your programming staff for that? i.e. spend $100k out of $500k budget?

[buoyant seal]

for having good infrastructure of a project, having configured fast to test staging background, being able to take user load, easy to upgrade, having good monitoring observability systems to debug quicker production problems? it sounds like a really good idea to do that.

at least 1 person is really necessary which makes things for product running

[sleek egret]

your choice <shrug>

[buoyant seal]

i can admit, 5 dev team is very small one. but someone should be having dedicated at least half of his time into it. preferably a full dev on this topic though

[buoyant seal]

it is good idea to do it from a start, with having as a code documented all processes, and made easy to upgrade after that things.
recovering mess for already running projects... well, that is very painful and costy process to make.

It is like trying to recover project without unit tests to have done unit tests done later.
if project is already made with not testable code architecture, cost of introducing them later will be many times higher

[sleek egret]

I'm just saying that it seems unlikely that a startup will dedicate a person to manage CI/CD for a team of 4 or 5

as in, that's all he does

[wind ledge]

Hi guys; a rising computer science senior here. Soon, I'll be applying to graduate schools in the US, so I'll need to have my achievements stacked alongside. Academics and Research are going phenomenally well. I was looking into contributing to Python's open-source repo or if there are some ongoing projects I could be a prominent member of. Not to worry about the rigor; my diligence speaks on my behalf. Any advice?

[silver jacinth]

Do whatever you want to do as a career

Don't worry about what projects

[near ocean]

What's your question here? Do you want CV advice? A list of open source projects? General life advice?

[wind ledge]

Broadly speaking, the goal is to make my graduate application very strong, and I'm sure the admission officers there would be looking at many applications. They would most certainly appreciate my contributions in some projects. As context, I have submitted two research papers in ACM SIGCOMM and ACM CoNEXT, which implies that I am killing at research. On top of that, I am aiming for a Ph.D. So now, tell me, how do I start if I want to contribute to open source?

[near ocean]

You start by looking at contribution guidelines for each repository youre interested in and then taking a look at available issues

[wind ledge]

For additional information, my primary interest lies in networks and distributed systems.

[wind ledge]

I see. Adding to my previous message, do I specifically look into networking stuff? For example, are there any issues in scapy (a packet manipulation tool in Python - networking based), or could it be anything?

[near ocean]

By issues i mean github issues, so reported bugs or feature requests

[wind ledge]

I get your point. Any general pieces of advice you'd like to give me? It could be a life lesson, in general.

[unreal crescent]

what happening to you bro

[wind ledge]

nothing lol, killing my time in summers. any advice you got?

[unreal crescent]

can we talk private?

[wind ledge]

sure, drop by!

[unreal crescent]

Just send a message instead bro

[small geode]

Just an observation so I may be incorrect, but you at first come across as a bit egotistical. As "general life advice," please don't bring that to the table in professional environments or projects. Again, I may be reading wrong, just my observation.

[wind ledge]

You're right, I should have phrased it better. Apologies!

[onyx salmon]

can anyone tell me where I can find links to classes teaching html through pycharm

?

[dreamy spade]

no overuse of comments pointing out the obvious

//This gives the variable a value
const x = 1 

My Java professor would instruct me to document all of my code like this. Otherwise, I get marks deducted. This is why I don't exclusively depend on academic institutions for my source of learning. I find other sources to acquire knowledge as well.

[small geode]

HTML through Pycharm, probably exactly 0. This is for career discussion though. Maybe try #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[onyx salmon]

I understand, thank you

[small geode]

I would listen to your instructor instead of Twitter

[gritty rivet]

It's reasonable for a prof to ask that in coursework, but I doubt they meant to suggest that's how you should code at work

[small geode]

There's also likely a reason behind your instructor wanting this, and that is to get you into good habits. They will be well aware that you don't need to comment every line of code. It's to get you used to doing it though, so that when it is needed it's done well.

[summer roost]

they encourage students learning their first language to comment everything for a couple of reasons. One is that it makes it harder to cheat, since everyone's comments should be different, even though there's only one obvious way to write the code for most beginner assignments. Another is that reading code is harder than writing code, and by encouraging students to comment even simple code, it makes it easier for those students to revisit the code later and understand it. Neither of those apply to real-world code.

[smoky quest]

It also helps relating what the student wanted to do with what they are actually doing

[true harness]

I think everyone advocates learning on your own outside of school, also

school will give you lots of fundamentals and theory, but not many classes on modern tools. that's up to you to learn

at least, for BS programs. idk about anything else. I think boot camps focus on tools and language and stuff

[delicate bane]

plug for robert martin's clean code

[dark thunder]

hey i’m currently going into my freshman year, and i’ve been getting recommended to take harvard CS50 online course. is this course worth the time to study?

[smoky quest]

sure, it's a popular intro

[sleek egret]

it certainly won't hurt

[dreamy spade]

Wow. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/johndconley_chatgpt-created-resumes-are-dealbreakers-activity-7069424564220420096-zQfA?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios

[smoky quest]

is it about the content or of the formatting?

[dreamy spade]

“Reading this article around how AI generated resumes are deal breakers for recruiters left me perplexed. I am perplexed because it seems to me that these same recruiters are using AI to generate job descriptions. As someone who just completed a successful job search almost each and every job descriptions reads exactly the same for certain positions. If these recruiters want authenticity in the resume process they should offer the same in their job descriptions. 

With that said, I completely agree that job hunters should not use AI to write the entire resume, but why not leverage this new tool to get a jump start, an outline, or new approaches and then tailor it from there”
John D Conley

Job hunters using Chat-Gpt to build their resume are deal breakers for recruiters but recruiters are using Chat-Gpt to write their job descriptions.

[smoky quest]

I guess it comes down to the content.
If the content is made up then that is going to be a problem. But if it's just about phrasing and putting it together, then who cares?

technically, using chatgpt is no different than paying a professional to review your resume.
But similarly, the content should be real

[vapid jay]

How would they know gpt has written it or not?

If i use chatgpt on smth as simple as that then i can just pretend i wrote it

[dapper bane]

Anyone can guide me on freelancer path ?

I know MERN , typescript, godot , ui ux (figma) , Video editing da vinci

I am slowly gaining confidence in these technologies

[vapid jay]

Hello everyone! Its goood upwork for beginner?

[dapper bane]

I am wondering the same

[dapper bane]

How long have u been coding though ?

[vapid jay]

Be honest, 2 month

[dapper bane]

Cool can we discuss in dms because of the slow mode ?

[vapid jay]

Yep

[small geode]

That's a freelance site. I'm not sure what value a beginner would get from it.

[small geode]

I don't believe there's really a "path" and it's important to note, freelance takes a lot of time to build up reputation before you start earning really anything

[dapper bane]

Ok but how bout like 500$ per month is that reasonable because I live in a low currency country it is a good starting amount

Don't need money like them American or similar standards

[full siren]

I'm in my freshman year at university (studying cs duh). Next year, I'll take artifical intelligence lecture but I've already taken PyTorch for ml and dl course (no certificate, just on youtube). I think I should learn machine learning and then go through deep learning. but the thing is that I'll already take machine learning lecture under the lecture name "artifical intelligence". Would it be waste of time to learn it myself? Yeah, certification isn't the all thing but to enrich my cv, I desire to earn certificate so that I could put it on my resume. Would it be a good idea to learn ML and DL in Python and learn the theoric stuff next year in my lecture? Please ping me when replying

[wind ledge]

Hi, a rising computer science senior here. Great question. It won't hurt to have that additional programming knowledge beforehand, which would undoubtedly help you when you are enrolled in the course. As far as my experience goes, I still haven't taken a course in ML or DL since my primary interests lie in computer networking. However, it would help if you learn ML and DL in Python right now. I'm sure your university course would have programming assignments in Python, which would help you get started and stay ahead of the class.

[dapper bane]

Hey when u reply plz ping me I am waiting very eagerly

[vapid jay]

Can you give advice how to start earning anything if you can't work at job

[full siren]

I've found the slides that are used in the AI class and didn't see any Python. I don't know whether there will be, though. But I'm sort of afraid to waste my time on something that I'll learn in the next year mandotary. Would it be a good idea to go through some Python ML libraries (PyTorch e.g) or focus on soemthing else in this period of time?

[wind ledge]

You're thinking on the right track. It's a good conscious related to your time. If you're confident that you'll be learning all of this stuff in your upcoming semester, great. Don't waste your time on this. You could look into web development in the meantime? It's a great tool to have in your skillset.

[dapper bane]

Do u need any help I mean ur name

[full siren]

The artifical intelligence class in the next year is mandotary and we all have to take it and it's beginner-friendly. I think we are going to be taught theoratical stuff. In the upcoming classes after that, we will have the opportunity to choose classes and there are many options including deep learning. I don't think that we will be taught how to apply those stuff in coding next year but yeah. I could also learn something else like web development.

[wind ledge]

lol what?

[full siren]

helpless coder. I think they meant that

[wind ledge]

yeah, and I haven't been more confused xD

[weak spindle]

Career with python

[full siren]

more context

[wind ledge]

Go for web development!

[dapper bane]

Yeah @wind ledge

[full siren]

Thanks a million for your awesome tips man! ❤️

[wind ledge]

you're very welcome, feel free to reach out always!

[full siren]

Hope to see you helpfulcoder one day! 😄

[dapper bane]

I don't know ur country but there is a lot of competition in web dev its the reason I switched mobile react native this is not advice I am just saying be prepared for that

[weak spindle]

What about data analysis??

[full siren]

Data is going to be the patrol/fuel of new century

[full siren]

Yeah, there are many bootcamps here as well

[dense fiber]

my bootcamp starts tomorrow
wish me luck

[dapper bane]

If i don't get gigs doing open-source a good idea ?

[full siren]

glhf

[dreamy spade]

Good question. I’m not too sure.

[true harness]

it has a distinct writing style

[wind ledge]

To my knowledge, I doubt open-source would earn you a quarter even. Not initially, tbh!

[deft pelican]

Apart from regular daily work, how do you keep your programming knowledge a jour? Any work compatible activity to recommend?

I guess not just keeping up, but actually expanding your knowedge into new areas 🙂

I guess not just keeping up, but actually expanding your knowedge into new areas 🙂

[neon haven]

Discord is being dodgy

[small geode]

No

[small geode]

Just getting a normal job or if you're in college, internships

[small geode]

Just getting a normal job or if you're in college, internships

[small geode]

Honestly sometimes you just don't care about it after working for several hours.

When I do still feel like it though, I have personal projects that I like to work on

[deft pelican]

I was thinking about things that I can do during actual working hours

In my spare time I just configure my environment or watch 1-2 hours of conference talk per year 😛

[small geode]

I believe that depends on your individual situation. If you have nothing to do, I suggest asking your direct if there's anything you can help with

[deft pelican]

I guess there is no specific connection to career in my question xD

[small geode]

There's just no simple answer. I'm not going to suggest what you should be doing at work

Ignore those, server dying

[deft pelican]

I have put a 2 hour meeting per sprint for my team to learn something, but it's now always easy to pick out a s ubject or be prepared such that the time doesn't go to waste

[small geode]

I believe that depends on your individual situation. If you have nothing to do, I suggest asking your direct if there's anything you can help with

[deft pelican]

Last time I hade a teaching session about git, that was a success 🙂

Last time I hade a teaching session about git, that was a success 🙂

Last time I hade a teaching session about git, that was a success 🙂

Last time I hade a teaching session about git, that was a success 🙂

[neon haven]

Discord is being dodgy

[kindred stump]

I've been learning coding as a secondary career. The way I integrate that into my current job is by figuring out something about my current job that I can use coding to help with. I've created tools that my boss never commissioned me to create that helps me do my job more accurately and faster. In that process I've learned a lot of new skills.

[deft pelican]

@kindred stump awesome ! 🙂

@kindred stump awesome ! 🙂

[kindred stump]

Totally! It helps that my initial job is on a computer... so it was only natural that I should be learning MORE about the computer to assist in my computer related job HAHAHA! 😆

[deft pelican]

😎

[deft pelican]

I have PLENTY to do 😛

[eternal totem]

So

[small geode]

Choose the college you feel will teach you best, and that you'd like to be at. Don't focus on what your first salary will be, because it won't be what you want in the end.

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384> this guy again

[eternal totem]

Right

[deft pelican]

In Sweden the most common advice to increase your salary is to switch emplyer

However, dont forget to value happiness highly

[eternal totem]

I think I will gain experience first then do some other degree

[coarse dust]

Hello everyone, I'm Lucas. I'm currently in college studying electronics communications engineering but I'm particularly interested in being a software engineer and I've been learning programming for years now, although I wasn't consistent at some point due to the college workload and job. But I'm quite invested in it now. I enrolled in a fullstack software engineering and I'm 8 months in (it's 12 months). I'm particularly interested in backend though.. I'd be happy if anyone could share info regarding internships. Also, I'd be glad to receive any advice from you regarding what I should to develop myself career wise.

Thanks.

[crisp stream]

!cban 841623266871083019

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @wooden tundra permanently.

[coarse dust]

I don't think that's relevant here sir

[summer roost]

If you want to be a software engineer, have you considered switching majors to computer science or software engineering?

[true harness]

i'm kinda confused about your situation. you're enrolled in a "fullstack software engineering" what?

[deft pelican]

I'm also confused, is "electronics communication engineering" your master/programme at university?

[dapper bane]

then what should i do ?

[small geode]

What is your current situation? High school, college, different career?

[coarse dust]

It's a 12 month program designed to train people with fundamental programming experience into being a fullstack software engineers.

[coarse dust]

Yeah, but will have to do that once I'm done with the current degree. I'm actually in my finals in the University. And I was thinking electrical/electronics engineering is quite related to computer science and it would be easy to work it. But that's my assumption and I'm well open to any suggestions from you 🙏

[summer roost]

And I was thinking electrical/electronics engineering is quite related to computer science
They're not particularly close at all, I would say. Electrical/electronics engineering is an applied science, computer science is predominantly a type of abstract math... Electronics engineering is no more useful for a software engineer than something like physics would be

I guess I'm still confused why you'd choose to continue pursuing a degree knowing that it isn't helpful for the job you want to get

how close are you to getting the degree you're currently working on?

[small geode]

I mean, that combination is what would be preferred in a well-rounded embedded engineer, no?

[summer roost]

sure - it's not that there's zero overlap. But there's overlap between biology and software engineering, too, and no one would say that biology is quite related to computer science.

[small geode]

Obviously, but I feel like that's being focused unnecessarily. It's probably better for them to see if the places where they do overlap are things they'd be interested in

It's also possible it's a case of not knowing which was your true passion until it's a bit late

[summer roost]

the places where they do overlap are not likely places where the "fullstack software engineering program" would be helpful. I suspect that's geared towards web development, which is quite far from embedded.

[coarse dust]

I would be done with it by September. And I'm currently still participating in the software engineering program. Currently working on a project with a partner of which I'm handling the backend using Django.

[small geode]

Agreed, but any knowledge is better than none I suppose

[summer roost]

sure, but from a career development perspective, it's hardly the best strategy, is all I'm saying

In a nutshell, I don't imagine there's many jobs where knowing both Django and electronics engineering is useful

[coarse dust]

I'm not particularly settling with python nor Django specifically. I'm just using cause it's quite simple to work with it given the time we have to work on the project.

During the course of this program, I've learnt and used different technologies as well as languages. So I'd probably say that I make use of the best tool for the work as they come. I'm pretty comfortable using any language even if I'm not an expert in it, I will definitely find my way around it. Thanks for pointing that out too.

[small geode]

Is it that your degree ended up not being what you want to do, or what's the plan?

[coarse dust]

Nope. The truth is that it's hard to practice in my country as there no much industries that will aid I learning and actual work.

I'm making the switch cause I equally have passion for programming (engineering in general) and it's also easy to learn and put to practice, also I can easily work from anywhere with it as well as setting up my own company in the future.

Just trying to survive 😉

[graceful mason]

I work in robotics and we've needed to make a webapp frontend for one of our systems, I guess that's a pretty niche thing to aim for though 😅

[small geode]

You should be aware working in a different country and starting your own business won't be that easy.

[sleek egret]

why didn't you just have the robot do it?

[graceful mason]

🤦‍♂️ months of work gone to waste how didn't I think of this

[coarse dust]

Yeah, I'm aware of it. It's a long term goal.

[sleek egret]

long term being 6 months or 6 years? I can't tell with kids, anymore

[near ocean]

The world is fast paced nowadays gramps

[coarse dust]

Definitely not in months😂

[true harness]

6 minutes

[summer roost]

are there many jobs for software engineers in your country?

[coarse dust]

Not as many as those searching for jobs. But it's easier if you're competent enough and equally have a good network

[vapid jay]

have someone here been able to start and build side hustles, or businesses from programming in general or using python and other languages

[coarse dust]

Of course, I know a few. But it's not that I easy though.

[vapid jay]

oh yeah, i expected, i just really think that i would like to ask them few questions and just to acquire their experiences as knowledge

[dreamy spade]

Your Electronics Communications Engineering program + that 12 month full stack program should acquire you enough knowledge to become a developer.

[summer roost]

I'm really not convinced that's true. The electronics engineering program most likely gives no useful skills or fundamentals that would be useful to a web developer, so what you're basically saying is that the 12 month full stack program on its own would be enough for them to get a job as a developer. They've said there are more people searching for jobs than there are jobs available, which implies that there's competition for what jobs exist. There will be competitors for those jobs who have better credentials or more relevant education.

it's possible to get a job with just a 12-month boot camp, but it's certainly not the easiest route, nor the one with the greatest odds of success, nor the one that provides the best opportunities for career progression

CC @coarse dust

[sleek egret]

in the end, the answer is "it depends"

[summer roost]

as with most things in life 😅

[surreal jackal]

wtf is this new pp?

i mean server pic

[summer roost]

what does that have to do with jobs and careers?

[coarse dust]

Thanks for the detailed explanation sir. I'd appreciate that. But just to add, I've been coding for few years (about 4) before this program. The difference is that this program has given me direction, so I've been learning things about fullstack engineering. From the normal css html, to server side scripting/configuration. A lot of devops stuffs. I've sure learned a lot so far. And it's project based not theoretical stuffs.

I really do feel a lot confident going forward, and not to say that I feel like I've gotten all it takes, but I feel good about it.

[surreal jackal]

idk were's the general chat

[summer roost]

!off-topic

[inner wren]

Off-topic channels

There are three off-topic channels:
• #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval
• #ot1-perplexing-regexing
• #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

The channel names change every night at midnight UTC and are often fun meta references to jokes or conversations that happened on the server.

See our off-topic etiquette page for more guidance on how the channels should be used.

[buoyant seal]

Tldr: get at least bachelor's degree. Take care of self studies, find if u can internships for students.
And with moderate enough diligence your career will be in a good shape 😊 @coarse dust

[summer roost]

OK. I'll definitely say that having been coding for several years before that program will definitely help your chances.

[coarse dust]

Thank you.

[coarse dust]

Yeah, I agree too.

[surreal jackal]

u guys didn't answer my question btw

[summer roost]

!rule 7

[inner wren]

Rules

7. Keep discussions relevant to the channel topic. Each channel's description tells you the topic.

[dreamy spade]

He said his interest is in backend. Software Engineers with an electronic engineering degree isn’t unheard of. I don’t know where he lives but I’ve seen Canadian jobs posted that ask for either a Computer Science or Electrical Engineering background. I don’t know if you know this but they also teach programming in Electrical Engineering programs. That should be enough knowledge if he wants to become a backend embedded software engineer.

[summer roost]

if you want to have a conversation about the server's branding, the off-topic channels are the place for that, not #career-advice

[true harness]

for what it's worth, my brother is an electrical engineering major in the US. i've seen what programming coursework they go through. it is not enough

[summer roost]

yes, there are jobs that use both of those skills, but none of them would benefit from this fullstack development program. The term "fullstack" is used only for web development.

[coarse dust]

Yeah, they do teach matlab and python. Also I took a course on Software engineering design principles as an elective. Yeah, there's some relationship.

[true harness]

what's a "backend embedded software engineer" anyway. i've never heard those in combination. when i hear "backend" i typically think web dev

[coarse dust]

Embedded engineering has to do with more of programming hardwares

[summer roost]

"backend" and "embedded" are orthogonal.

one way of coarsely dividing programming jobs is by where the software that you write gets run.

1. frontend: on an end user's computer
2. backend: on a computer managed by your organization
3. embedded: on a device that most people wouldn't consider a computer at all

with that division, "backend embedded" doesn't make any sense.

[coarse dust]

Sorry if I'm asking much, aside from backend engineering, what other software engineering would my degree as an electronic communication engineer find relevance in?

[true harness]

probably wouldn't be relevent in backend. i'd expect embedded to be more realistic

[coarse dust]

Makes a lot of sense. I'd guess I'm under more pressure because I need to start earning. I really do have passion for a lot of things which would certainly take time t perfect. I guess I have to stick to fullstack for a while and then try other things as I gain stability.

[covert vector]

Anybody tell me what roadmap i should follow for software development in python (like what books i should read etc)

[summer roost]

yeah. Possibly systems-level stuff - you might find your electronic communication engineer background useful for writing device drivers or maybe low-level DSP or FPGA type stuff. But I agree with psvm, it's probably much more useful for an embedded engineer sort of path, writing firmware that runs on microcontrollers or SOCs

[coarse dust]

Part of being a software engineer is understanding a problem that needs to be solved and the best ways to solving them as well as the right tools to use. Python as a language is a tool that software engineers use, don't lay much emphasis on python when trying to be a software engineer pal.

[coarse dust]

Totally awesome. I'm excited👌

[covert vector]

No i know but like a roadmap to learning and mastering python

Software engineer is university stuff

Im just tryna learn python develop my portfolio

[summer roost]

what sort of portfolio? What will it be used for?

[covert vector]

So i get a head start . Then ill go into soft eng into uni

I know beginner python already

Wanna enhance my knowledge get a head start, build projects and stuff. Read books etc

[coarse dust]

You can start by taking courses on udemy or getting some books on it. I particularly prefer books and then watch videos to gain better explanation on certain concepts.

I think you can just make simple research on Google about books to use. Chatgpt can equally help you with that..

I started out with learning python and then followed up with programming in python all is from O'Reilly. After getting the basics, the best way to learn is to build things with what you've learned. There's a lot to learn so don't try to learn everything 😂

[summer roost]

it's pretty unlikely that anyone hiring you once you're in or graduated from uni will care at all what projects you built before uni. Maybe internships, but even then, likely only for your first internship. I'd suggest your time is best spent experimenting, building projects that interest you, figuring out what kind of stuff you most and least enjoy working with, etc. But if you want books, things like Fluent Python or Clean Code or Head First Design Patterns might interest you.

[covert vector]

Ok

Ill look into that.

[covert vector]

Yes for sure. Im more interested in cybersecurity stuff and AI, but thats pretty advanced haha. Ill leave that for uni i believe

[pastel thunder]

how bad is it to not have github on resume, applying to SDE/ML job

[summer roost]

I'm generally of the opinion that self-teaching something that will later be taught to you in a required course for your degree isn't the best use of your time, unless it's something you find so interesting that you really can't wait to dive in

[covert vector]

True. I agree. I enjoy programming. I guess ill just do projects i enjoy like gaming and website stuff.

[summer roost]

🤷‍♂️ How good is the rest of the resume? I guess that's what's relevant. You're losing one thing that you could use to sell yourself to employers. If you have enough other things, that might be fine.

[pastel thunder]

So its actually a major portion

Joining date is coming close, i kinda feel f ed.

[summer roost]

I generally weight it less than prior relevant work experience, but more than something like the name of the university. Probably less than the GPA...

🤷‍♂️ Different people will weigh it differently, but like I said, it's one thing that you would be able to use to sell yourself if you had it, but won't be able to use if you don't.

[dreamy spade]

Well.

[gritty rivet]

As if I didn't have enough reason to hate LinkedIn you keep sharing these absurd and nonsensical questions 🤣

[true harness]

why would entry level positions ever be extinct?

[buoyant seal]

if u will pursue embedded path, python will not be the best choice.
C and C++ is traditionally dominating embedded as far as I know. + probably Assemble sometimes used too.
Most modern companies seem to embrace stuff like Golang and Rust and may be some other choices for embedded

python has microPython version useful for embedded... but in general its requirements to run are too high. i checked microPython web page... they offer to run it only on specialized one only device for python xD
TinyGo in comparison has support for 85 different devices https://tinygo.org/docs/reference/microcontrollers/

market will still ask C/C++ though. or at least it asks in my origin country for C/C++ from embedded devs

[dreamy spade]

Seems to me that most companies want to hire people who already have experience.

[smoky quest]

tbh having projects is a lot more important than having them on github.

As a rule of thumb, ask yourself: how does my resume compare with the average candidate with an average education (so a BS in CS), projects, internships?

[true harness]

of course, experienced people are better than inexperienced people. but that doesn't mean junior positions are going away, that would be absurd. no one gets experience without first being inexperienced

[hearty island]

i got lucky i have a full time job after grad as a PM

[smoky quest]

In team design, you do want some good mix.
So you would explicitly look for entry level people

[true harness]

interesting. why?

[unreal turtle]

Is swe a happy and fulfilling career?

[true harness]

depends

[unreal turtle]

On?

[true harness]

if you find it happy and fulfilling

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384>

[woven apex]

!cban 1052605834296840244 Clearly you don't want to participate here.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @arctic vigil permanently.

[summer roost]

"Entry-level" just means "at the lowest level in an employment hierarchy". If we got rid of entry-level jobs, no one new would be able to join the field, and it would disappear in 40 years when everyone currently in the field retires. Clearly that's not going to happen. Anyone who thinks that it might happen has some fundamental misunderstanding.

entry-level jobs in the future might require more or different skills than entry-level jobs today do, but there will always be entry-level jobs, because there will always be a need to replace existing employees with new ones (as people retire or die or as the industry grows, etc)

[true harness]

unless the entire industry gets taken over by AI or something, heh

[summer roost]

sure, I mean, there aren't a lot of entry-level milk-delivery jobs anymore. But as long as the industry continues to hire new people, it must, necessarily, by definition, have entry level jobs

[summer roost]

hm? MicroPython runs on a ton of different microcontrollers. AdaFruit sells around a dozen of them. Arduino sells 3.

[buoyant seal]

https://micropython.org/ got mislead or smth. front page contains just one official supported one

The pyboard is the official MicroPython microcontroller board with full support for software features. The hardware has:

While TinyGO wrote support for 85 different boards and devices
https://tinygo.org/docs/reference/microcontrollers/

[summer roost]

that's just the one board designed by the micropython folks. They support many more than that.

[buoyant seal]

https://www.adafruit.com/category/924
adafruit has indeed a lot more of compatible with it, yeah

[summer roost]

Though you're right that in the real world, it's much more likely that a compiled language will be used, rather than MicroPython. MicroPython is more useful for hobbyists or for prototyping, but once you're mass-producing something, it makes sense to minimize the manufacturing cost per unit, and that means getting it to run on the smallest/cheapest microcontrollers you plausibly can.

[buoyant seal]

missing easy to google this info from their web site/official documentation xD SEO missing

[smoky quest]

Get some fresh views, gives more growth opportunities, etc.

[smoky quest]

if we are going there, we may want to also mention java since it runs on smartcards

[summer roost]

exposure to new tech, too. Students have a lot of time to tinker and experiment and try out new tech. Hiring juniors can be a good way to introduce your seniors to new tech that they haven't yet bothered to learn.

[true harness]

ah so learning rust and using highly unstable frameworks is actually a good idea 👀

[summer roost]

genuinely, yeah. also, one team will work on many different tasks, and those tasks will require many different levels of skill. If everyone on the team is at the highest possible skill level, then you're overpaying for work when they need to do things that could be done by someone much more junior. And you're probably boring those seniors by making them do it, too, increasing attrition.

Like hiring a bunch of people with the skills to be head chef for your restaurant, and making most of them work as line cooks

[smoky quest]

yeah, your team can't have 5 head chefs

[peak halo]

!otn a a team of five head chefs

[inner wren]

:ok_hand: Added a-team-of-five-head-chefs to the names list.

[summer roost]

to this point, even if the only piece of knowledge you bring is what not to do, that can be helpful, too. Imagine the company is considering switching to Rust for something: being able to point out that some particular framework is definitely not the thing for them to start relying on for a product that needs to be supported for the next 5+ years is something that someone steeped in the Rust ecosystem might know, but someone just researching it and figuring out how to get started might not.

[true harness]

interesting. I've been moving towards more "enterprisy" things recently but maybe I shall go back to my other projects 👀

[summer roost]

both are valuable, just for different reasons

[true harness]

I suppose I should do both then 😩

[wary flare]

Hi

[deft pelican]

Did someone mention enterprise?!? https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition

[true harness]

that is a great github profile picture

[deft pelican]

Oooh, it is! 😄

[vapid jay]

Anyone can star ? https://github.com/anyiskiidd/Cybersecurity-Toolbox

[buoyant seal]

it is missing built docker container for it and deployment in serverless infrastructure or kubernetes (or both)!

[true harness]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[random sparrow]

What is currently the most sought-after role in the field of technology, specifically in terms of skills and programming?

[deft pelican]

Time for a PR I hear!

[peak halo]

Probably people who can maintain legacy code bases

[buoyant seal]

COBOL developers ^_^

[random sparrow]

can you go more in detail plz

[peak halo]

Well, it's not a role that's in high demand per se. But it's one with a specific skill set that has a lot of value.

Is your reason for asking that you want help deciding what to pursue?

[random sparrow]

i understand, but what role is currently in demand

[random sparrow]

yes im just starting out want a little guidance

[smoky quest]

pretty much every field of CS is very much in demand.
it's permeating every other industry

[random sparrow]

ok i see, thank you

[smoky quest]

if you are in HS or college, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[random sparrow]

Okay, I've decided to begin college in September. Initially, I chose to pursue a degree in cyber security, but I've realized that I find computer science more captivating.

[peak halo]

So that university offers degrees in both CS and cyber security, separately? Which departments offer each?

[random sparrow]

Yea

They separate

[peak halo]

And the second question?

[random sparrow]

all i know is there is one for Networking and Cybersecurity and one for Computer Science

[peak halo]

Often, computer science is taught by the engineering division of the university. At that university, are they both taught by engineering?

Or is one taught by business?

[random sparrow]

i fully understand the question now, yes both at Engineering

[peak halo]

Staying in the cybersecurity program might be a good choice, unless you're sure that field doesn't interest you

Computer science is pretty theoretical, so it's up to you to develop specialized skills

[random sparrow]

I like both fields, but the creative aspect of CS sounds more interesting

[random sparrow]

i see, which will be safe in the future

[peak halo]

Computer science is creative inasfaras software development is creative

I'm not sure how much development cybersec people do

[random sparrow]

oh i see, if you had to start over whatr would you do

[peak halo]

I wouldn't have changed anything. I work in language technology. And that's exactly what I wanted.

[random sparrow]

i understand, so if i choose CS i choose cyber later on

[deft pelican]

language technology huh? Tell me more 👀

[peak halo]

I created ChatGPT.

[pine sleet]

no way

[deft pelican]

oh, that kind of language 🙂

Really cool! Must be interesting! How many people were/are you on that project?

[peak halo]

I did not actually create ChatGPT. I can't talk about what I really do.

[deft pelican]

o.O

Sad, government work? National security?

I can't say much about mine (I think) but I can atleast say the field and wont lie about it 😛

[vapid jay]

He's definitely Federal

[true harness]

why lol

[peak halo]

One never knows.

[dreamy spade]

https://cybersecurityguide.org/careers/security-software-developer/

A fusion of Cybersecurity and Software Development.

[pine sleet]

Hello, we don't allow recruitment on this server ~ perhaps you can try sites like Fiverr or Upwork instead?

[summer roost]

and please delete this message, since advertising and recruitment are not allowed here.

[void bay]

too much competition

[pine sleet]

Yeah unfortunately freelancing can be hard to break into

[modern ore]

But I did

[small geode]

Please refrain from trolling and wasting everyone's time.

[dapper bane]

Sorry I am currently doing college last year

I need to clear one exam

[dapper bane]

Please help 😭

[dapper bane]

Hey come on it was only a joke

[small geode]

You don't appear to be taking it seriously if you actually need help.

[dapper bane]

I am really sorry but I really need help

[dapper bane]

You gotta help me

[dapper bane]

So what should I do ?

[dapper bane]

I don't y when I look at gigs of python they are about fixing bugs, trading bot or something similar

[dapper bane]

Do ping me

[sand patio]

@dapper bane don't spam-reply another user

[dapper bane]

Ok

[long nacelle]

Less gooo python is gay again

[tiny dagger]

Lmao

[gray marsh]

scared af rn

im working full time in programming starting tmr and i dont know the first thing about the ui framework they using

[small geode]

Are they expecting you to?

[gray marsh]

i dont think so, but i think they're expecting me to have experience in the language and project structure. but my experience is in python and qt, but they want me to do java and spring

really hoping they are similar and it wont be too painful to switch over

[small geode]

Have you ever done anything with the two?

[gray marsh]

especially since its my first time working. im only 16

[small geode]

I guess internship?

[gray marsh]

not in the slightest. i just know java from competative programming contests
yea its an internship. its all really intimidating though

imposter syndrome is really hitting hard right now

[small geode]

No offense, they won't expect a 16 year old intern to know it all off the bat. Don't sweat

[gray marsh]

thanks. i hope not, still a little nervous ill be disappointing though haha

[wanton birch]

I didn't even know that 16 year olds can be software dev interns! Well done! You have already learnt things and this is your opportunity to learn even more.

[dapper bane]

looks like u r killing it at a young age

[smoky quest]

congrats!
It will be fun!

[spark cobalt]

[wanton birch]

@smoky quest Is it common for interns or entry level CS folks to be trusted with the sort of high performance code optimisation thing I was asking about?

[smoky quest]

sure.
why not?

[modern ore]

rng

[wanton birch]

I just assumed that the closer to optimal you get, the more you need to have experts handling the matter. But then again, a sernior dev could totally review your work.

[modern ore]

its rng

[wanton birch]

I am not sure I understand you. What is rng?

[smoky quest]

it doesn't mean a senior can't guide you in such project

it would actually be an awesome internship project

you get to dive deep into some topic, do some research, propose a solution, and have a measurable impact. And that would look great on your resume later

and on top of it, it can be fairly contained

[modern ore]

Any tips on measuring impact 🤔

(non optimizing stuff related)

[wanton birch]

Oh. The type of stuff I am talking about is very measurable with obvious and objective criterion.

[smoky quest]

make sure there are no interferences (ie. watching youtube on the same machine), make sure you can find the bottleneck.
Make sure you have enough datapoints.
Don't forget nyquist theorem

[surreal sluice]

hi, could any experienced developers please advice me on what technology I should learn to complement Python? I have only created cloud apps, microservices and cybersecurity integrations using Python so far, that too using vanilla Python and using SDKs or APIs for whatever I needed to build. I want to learn something which will make me highly employable as of now because I am actively searching for a job. Was laid off in March.

[coarse dust]

Yeah that's true, I also code in C. Did a few projects with it - a clone of bash shell, the printf function and couple of other stuffs

[stiff herald]

why is python have to be gay. imagine being gay thats kinda weird ngl

[umbral frigate]

is fiverr good for freelancing?

[hot wadi]

[quick eagle]

Hey everyone! I am currently on day 10 of 100 Days of Code, would i be able to apply to a entry level job after completing this course? or is not enough?

[true harness]

what other education do you have? but probably not; 100 days is not enough to learn things you need

[quick eagle]

i have VWO high school diploma , which is the highest high school diploma you can get in the netherlands

[true harness]

Any tips on measuring impact 🤔
@modern ore ~key performance indicators~

[true harness]

sorry I don't know much about the Netherlands

[umbral frigate]

is fiverr good for freelancing?

in code ofc

[near ocean]

The tl;dr is no

Though we have interviewed bootcamp people at work it went about as good as you would expect

[dense fiber]

what do you see from bootcamp people

[near ocean]

They couldnt get past fizzbuzz without significant help and more importantly they went quiet after tackling a problem they struggled with

[umbral frigate]

omg no, that is actually… embarrassing

[dense fiber]

they went quiet as in, they ghosted you

or or they just stood there stressed out

[near ocean]

They sat there quiet, not asking for help, just reading the prompt i guess
It was during a technical interview

[umbral frigate]

i dunno, i think fizzbuzz was quite easy for me, and that was within my first few months of code

[near ocean]

Our interviewer guy had to push them to do things, ask them questions, tell them stuff

[dense fiber]

ooooh

[umbral frigate]

holy, i am literally in highschool, can't imagine what uni would be like

im doing cs accelerated lmao

[quick eagle]

but none of them got hired ?

[dense fiber]

after a few months of learning i didn't do fizzbuzz perfect first try, but based on the output 3 mins later i understand what i missed.
i question myself why for some this is a required test. but after doing it myself i can at least see the benefit

[umbral frigate]

but im doing fiverr for a side hustle, is it good?

[near ocean]

No, fizzbuzz fail aside, them sitting there quietly is what got them denied

[dense fiber]

i guess they are under the impression, by no fault of the interviewer, that asking question in a technical interview is a sign on unprofessionalism?

[umbral frigate]

these are bootcamp people? cos im doing a bootcamp soon after i do a comp

but ig thats why my code is so messy, since i am a competition coder

[near ocean]

Why, go get a degree

[umbral frigate]

im in highschool?

[umbral frigate]

nah, the bootcamp is after i win the comp, its just for refining skills and whatnot since i am a messy coder. as long as i get all of the subtasks, i am happy.

[near ocean]

After highschool then

[dense fiber]

bootcamp for summer?

[umbral frigate]

i will

[true harness]

what competition ?

[umbral frigate]

yeah, basically, since i am in australia its at the end of the year

[dense fiber]

nice

[umbral frigate]

Australian Informatics Olympiad https://www.amt.edu.au/aio

[near ocean]

Waste of time and money imho especially if youre going to uni

[umbral frigate]

its for free, since the aio is quite hard and i am in grade 8

also, i have been doing some other comps as well

[near ocean]

Youre so sure that youre gonna win an olympiad but you still want to do a bootcamp?

[umbral frigate]

its more like a prize that the school gives you

that is also why i am doing dynamic programming

its annoying tho, i am stuck on this prob: https://leetcode.com/problems/coin-change/

apparently its an interview question

[true harness]

winning a competitive programming competition, while impressive, is not really better than a degree. it'd be much more useful if you went to college

[umbral frigate]

im still in highschool tho

[true harness]

I understand. but from what I've read it seems you are not planning to go to college, instead only the boot camp

[umbral frigate]

i am, MIT, which is far from here, i am just talking abt this year

[true harness]

ok dude

[umbral frigate]

but ig i need to still do ATAR and SAT, and i have no idea how that will turn out

[near ocean]

I think you need to readjust your expectations
High aspirations are fine and all but remember to be realistic

[umbral frigate]

those actually aren't expectations, just recommendations from others

but i kinda just wanna stay in australia

[frank tiger]

will ai kill programmers

[fleet reef]

no.

[frank tiger]

i am a flutter dev and in my final year of CS graduation. I'm afraid of my career. Google also terminated it's codejam this year saying AI is their utmost priority. Alphacode is getting too better with little training data. So what I'm seeing is that, the whole world is now jumping out to kill my future career.
to my point we devs work harder than other professionals. but AI is making all of our hard work and skills totally pointless.

[small geode]

No

[umbral frigate]

umm no on all of your points. AI is still very unreliable

[slow crescent]

who is intrest in chatGPT?

[fleet reef]

not me.

[azure heart]

At the very least, it could maybe replace a junior dev, but you need junior devs because they will eventually become senior devs, and if you don't hire junior devs, then you're betting everything that AI can eventually replace a senior dev, and that will never happen

[near ocean]

Google fired so many people this year and in 2022, no wonder they cant host events like codejam anymore

Also i cant find a google source saying AI is their top priority

[frank tiger]

https://www.blog.google/inside-google/message-ceo/january-update/
Pivoting the company to be AI-first years ago led to groundbreaking advances across our businesses and the whole industry.

[near ocean]

This article has no mention of codejam or hashcode or whatever other event google and alphabet hosted

Its justifying their layoffs in a rather stupid way imo

[true harness]

"years ago"

[near ocean]

Whereas https://developers.googleblog.com/2023/05/celebrate-googles-coding-competitions.html?m=1 doesnt even mention AI

[frank tiger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZCFc4bi7Ng&t=8s
They're focusing on AI

[near ocean]

This guy's opinion is about as good as yours and mine

[frank tiger]

google won't invest on making better programmers. they moved their focus to AI

[near ocean]

🤷 I guess you can believe what you want, no point arguing

[fleet reef]

Who do you think makes the AI?

[frank tiger]

non coders, just AI course toppers in university

they don't know how to code, what they can do is train the models and fine tuning them.

they do have very advanced knowledge of AI books

[fleet reef]

Who makes the models?

[frank tiger]

told ya,
non coders, just AI course toppers in university

[near ocean]

Thats not how anything works and is also offtopic

[frank tiger]

I'm thinking to do my phd in AI. and get away from this dying programming shit. let's join the AI team and be the natsi of germany.

[near ocean]

That's not only completely off base but also inappropriate for the server

[true harness]

software engineers aren't making models

[near ocean]

people that can code are the ones implementing things and their job isnt going to be taken by chatgpt

[modern ore]

I think applied scientists

[frank tiger]

model developing and training doesn't need coding. they are scientists not coders or programmers.

[strong lava]

Do you have experience in the field? Or are you relaying what you heard from someone else?

[peak halo]

you do need to write code to train the models. and to prepare the data for modeling. but it's not "software engineering" per se.

[true harness]

however, deploying the models is done by software engineers. just look at any job ad for "machine learning engineer", they're software development positions

[frank tiger]

i developed some ML, DL models for my thesis projects. it just needs jupyter. AI knowledge is far different than coding algorithms.

[near ocean]

by that do you mean you imported a model someone else had to implement? whats your educational background and experience

[frank tiger]

i am not talking about deployment. deployment has nothing to do with model architecture

[frank tiger]

i'm a software engineer in my final years of CS graduation.

But i wish to get my scholarship in PhD in AI in upcoming years, since software engineers won't be needing anymore so much.

So becoming an AI scientist is safe way to go.

[near ocean]

you took on an ML based thesis as an undergrad software engineer as you say, this doesnt match what you're asserting higher up in the chat

[true harness]

can't use the models without deployment

[frank tiger]

deployment can be automated

it's a boring task and doesn't require to be a great software engineer.

[true harness]

why is google hiring them for hundreds of thousands of dollars

[frank tiger]

google is on his way to fire them

[true harness]

whatever you say dude

[near ocean]

this is the job description for the one non-managerial "AI Scientist" job ad for openai
https://openai.com/careers/chat-platform-engineer

[frank tiger]

but nobody talks about firing AI scientists.

[frank tiger]

soon gpt 5 will be able to do those task and openai will fire their existing software engineers.

[granite oar]

i have a phd in deep learning and work as a fullstack developer, go figure

[frank tiger]

idk why software engineers are helping them. ig it's all about money.

[near ocean]

This isnt a software engineer role, its an "AI Scientist" role which you claim no one wants to fire

[granite oar]

stop stressing and do what you enjoy

[frank tiger]

yes, everybody just wants to fire only software engineers. ig its actually not a profession at all.

[gaunt wren]

-resources

[near ocean]

my guy you just said this job ad wouldnt last 5 years, can you pick a lane or stop participating

not even 5 years, till gpt-5 (whatever that is) comes out

[frank tiger]

whatever they make, ai scientists aren't coders. they are the winners. and software engineers will be dead.

[near ocean]

are you just a troll then?

OpenAI thinks this job is for AI Scientists obviously, does the job description read like you wouldnt be coding?

[frank tiger]

so why can't you join openai ? what you learned as an AI scientist ? why did you switch to become a software engineers ?

[true harness]

what a loaded question lol

this discussion is going anywhere. you're clearly set on your opinion

[near ocean]

is it mods ping time

[granite oar]

when you have some experience with machine learning you get a better picture of what its like. cleaning data, testing architectures and running experiment. lots of waiting and trial and error. its almost more of an art for the most part not as glamorous as you think it will be.
99.9% of deep learning experts will be solving niche problems instead of deploying models like chat gpt

[frank tiger]

this is what i'm saying

deploying isn't the fact

[granite oar]

deployment is extremely challenging especially at scale

[peak halo]

by "deploy", do you mean "develop"?

hmm guess you do mean deploy.

[frank tiger]

but why did you become a developer instead ?

i'll be an AI scientist to safeguard my future

[granite oar]

both i guess

[analog sun]

Best of luck!

[granite oar]

at a large company youd only do one or the other. the work i did involved both on a smaller scale so i consider deploying a model to be dev + deploy

[granite oar]

i dont like programming black boxes

[frank tiger]

but people are using them as their main tool and replacing white software engineers

[vapid jay]

My boss closes tickets they didnt finish and then gives me a downstream issues where my work depends on her unfinished work

[near ocean]

yikes

[frank tiger]

gpt has reasoning capability and enought to replace

[small geode]

Please drop the topic

This is no longer about career discussion. If you want to discuss what AI may or may not be able to do, go to #data-science-and-ml

[fleet reef]

I haven’t found a single instance of this
I have seen dozens if not hundreds of instances where ChatGPT has failed to solve basic tasks
In my personal experience, I have asked ChatGPT 7 questions and not one was even close to even kinda correct

Hmm. Needs more underlines.

[small geode]

Yes it does. I don't think there were enough.

[granite oar]

chatgpt is directly between what both of you are saying imo. its a great tool, i use it at work all the time for boilerplate and small bits of code i dont feel like implementing, its useful for suggesting improvements or spotting bugs but isnt perfect. chat gpt4 is already much better than 3. still a long way to go before it can talk to someone, write a spec, implement it and deploy it

[small geode]

Seriously though, please drop this.

[granite oar]

will do buddy

[frank tiger]

yeah sure

[hearty island]

guys my manager said i’m doing a good job so far 🫡

[small geode]

Ayyyy see? Knew it'd get better for you

[daring root]

whoa congrats!

[hearty island]

he enrolled me in a bunch of linkedin learning courses for problem management and he recommended to get my certificate associate in project management as well

[frank tiger]

@granite oar come to #data-science-and-ml

[hearty island]

so i have a lot to do this summer 💀

[small geode]

That sounds great

[analog sun]

I would recommend #ot1-perplexing-regexing or #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

[peak halo]

speculating about the long-term implications of ChatGPT isn't the point of #data-science-and-ml

[granite oar]

uhhh my boss just called i gtg 🫡

[hearty island]

my boss is currently in toronto celebrating his 30th bday so that’s why he spammed me with courses to give me something to do

[fleet reef]

Your boss lets you know before he leaves for vacation??

[hearty island]

yep

he also let me know that he wants to leave the company relatively soon 💀

[sleek egret]

yar

[weak hedge]

Hii
It looks like am choosing AI as my specialization
Am I making any mistake

[sleek egret]

probably

[obsidian matrix]

Hey guys, what frameworks you think would be important to learn before applying for jobs? I'm about to conclude my training with Python, but i don't know anything outside the language yet

[true harness]

look for jobs in your area that you want. learn those frameworks

[uncut quest]

I think it would really depend on the role you're trying go for

[obsidian matrix]

Honestly i want to go for anything related to Python, but i don't know what are the options, or even where to look, i've been unenployed by some time now

[uncut quest]

I think looking at a roadmap / researching the different fields in the industry would be your first step.
https://roadmap.sh/roadmaps

[near ocean]

webdev might be more accessible than other areas, try django/flask/requests/sqlalchemy/pymongo/etc

[small geode]

I wouldn't but too much focus on trying to find a job in a specific language

[near ocean]

any way you go you'd have to learn other languages

[uncut quest]

On another note related to careers - how common / easy is it for people to trap themselves into a career field? Would love to hear about career transitions within SWE (eg - backend -> frontend) as well as bigger leaps like going from teaching / tutoring CS to joining industry.

[small geode]

Depends on what the transition is and the industries involved. I wouldn't imagine your example of moving from working on the backend to frontend (at least within the same company) would be much of a transition at all, save you're good at both.

[uncut quest]

How about going from academia / education -> industry? Maybe something like tutoring CS -> backend engineering

[small geode]

I guess it depends on the capacity? Being a student tutor, as a student, probably doesn't lend any leverage at all honestly. Being an instructor though can be an indicator of knowledge, though without a degree relevant to your goal, I don't know if there would be a large impact

[summer roost]

I know people who've transitioned from being developers to instructors, or developers to authors. I also know people who've transitioned from being mathematicians or scientists to being developers. Or data analysts to developers.

[small geode]

One of my previous coworkers was a math teacher turned ML engineer. I guess that was an obvious move though...

[near ocean]

the transition i've heard most people worry about is QA to dev

[obsidian matrix]

yeah, but python is the only thing i'm competent at, i do have a degree in computer science equivalent (2,5 years) but the course didn't have programming, so i just started training python last month. I want to master this one so i could at least get my first job in the area

[obsidian matrix]

Are these django / flask / pymongo much different from each other? I heard about django a lot and was planing to go for it after i finish here, but is there a reason i should learn any of the others instead?

[near ocean]

django/flask are similar, pymongo is for interacting with mongo (💀) , sqlalchemy is an ORM like pymongo

[uncut quest]

Flask, Django, FastAPI for backend frameworks. Pymongo is for mongodb.

[near ocean]

django has the majority of the market share for python backend

[uncut quest]

You should check this out! Might give you a better idea of the frameworks and tools https://roadmap.sh/python

[near ocean]

why does that kind of assume youre a backend dev if youre working with python

[obsidian matrix]

yeah i'm looking at it, i was following this before i needed to stop to focus on the course

[uncut quest]

Might be a continuation of their backend roadmap - actually I think it is. That's probably why they assume you're going for backend.

[near ocean]

ah, makes sense

[obsidian matrix]

oh yeah, i want to go for front end, i done some tutorials in html/css/js and understand how it works, but i don't think i have the creativity to work with that

[uncut quest]

I don't think Python would be optimal if you want to go into frontend

[obsidian matrix]

ops, i mean i'm going for back end

[uncut quest]

I think the best course of action right now would be to figure out what exactly you want to do with Python. Research into what you can do. Take a step back and objectively assess where you are in relation to where you want to be - and start working on the skills you need for that goal.

There's a lot you can do with Python

[obsidian matrix]

yeah, guess i'll do that

[sleek egret]

programming languages are just a means of expressing concepts

being skilled in python, C or whatever language is fashionable right now, is a rather low skill bar to jump over. know more, be more.

[obsidian matrix]

yeah, i just wanted to learn something and get a job on the field asap, but i think i need to train for 1 or 3 months

[winged perch]

My highschool just got over and I'm planning to pursue computer science as my major. So I have like a two month break now. Is there anyway i can get decent at coding by learning online for free?

[obsidian matrix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mAITcNt710&t=3729s

I think this should get you covered to start

[sleek egret]

starting is lame, finish ftw

[true harness]

yeah. if you want to be successful, find a way to finish what you've started without starting /s

[uncut quest]

I finished reading that message without starting

[obsidian matrix]

Guys, is there like anything i can do as a beginner that i can earn right away? I spend some months in tutorials and i wanted to start training instead of watching videos, what would be a good thing to work on?

[summer roost]

Almost certainly not. Beginners don't tend to have enough skills to be useful to employers yet.

[obsidian matrix]

Can you give me some pointers i could go for? My plan now is to finish my python course and then start learning frameworks, what else do i need to get my first job?

I need to start working asap, and continue to improve while working

I tried looking for some jobs here but every junior spot i find is asking for 3+ years of experience

[summer roost]

How old are you? What's your education history? What prior work experience do you have?

[summer roost]

If it's asking for 3+ years of experience, it's not an entry level role.

[deft herald]

Yeah. Programming-related jobs don't usually fall under the category of "start earning money after spending 1 month learning a skill"

[sleek egret]

do you have a university degree?

[obsidian matrix]

I'm 29, in 2016 - 2017 i did 3 semesters of computer science, and in 2021 i started a course of 2,5 years (analysis and systems development), which concludes this month, and in this time i've watched more tutorials that i could count, but i don't have much pratice

[obsidian matrix]

Yeah, mine will be ready this year i think, but i already concluded

[sleek egret]

if you have a degree, you have a reasonable chance of getting a job with the few additional courses you mentioned. if not, it'll be tougher road to hoe. possible, but challenging.

[vapid jay]

hello guys, i'm 15 years old and am very intrested into coding, i just worked on a game i've made the last weeks. maybe you want to check it out if you want. its a simple 2d game. unfortunetly you need python because its a .py i would be very grateful if you would go here and maybe give me a feedback or something. because i'm very intrested to get better. https://tigerdunphy24.itch.io/robber-hunt

[sleek egret]

this is, of course, assuming you can demonstrate competentcy.

[gritty rivet]

I need to start working asap

If this is truly the case, then you should start applying for the jobs you are currently qualified for

[obsidian matrix]

I just don't know when i'm ready to start working, i'm still not able to build full aplications by myself, is the degree enough to at least get a trainee job?

[sleek egret]

yes, because most people don't expect most fresh grads to be able to do much

[deft herald]

Well, good thing we're on a python server 😉

[vapid jay]

yes 😄

[sleek egret]

but I'll be honest here, your age will mean that people's expectations are higher. or rather, you'll need to demonstrate a bit more skill in order to reduce perceived risk

[deft herald]

However this channel is for career discussion. You can post in #1035199133436354600 or one of the topical channels for more direct discussion

[vapid jay]

oh sorry didnt know that

[sleek egret]

oh, and just FYI, there are no "trainee jobs". companies are just more patient for fresh grads getting up to speed. you are essentially expect to train yourself.

[obsidian matrix]

That's the thing, the only junior jobs i'm finding (i think i've looked up 12 sites for remote jobs, including LinkedIn) are asking for a LOT of experience, like 2 - 3+, and i don't have that

[sleek egret]

2 to 3 years is not a lot of experience. 20 years is a lot.

[near ocean]

there are apprenticeships which are basically trainee jobs

[sleek egret]

2-3 years is not "entry level" but still

[sleek egret]

those are quite rare after internships during university

[obsidian matrix]

which is the level for 1 year experience? I think this is where i fall in

[near ocean]

yea, idk if they even take graduates, its a different path

[sleek egret]

the job market for developers is pretty tight right now (relatively speaking). and the first people to feel the pain are, as always, the youngest and oldest. that said, this has happened before many times. the job market will recover soon.

[summer roost]

Remote jobs are much more likely to require someone who can hit the ground running and who does not need a lot of help figuring out how to complete their assigned work than non-remote jobs.

[near ocean]

or just be incredibly lucky

[sleek egret]

or demonstrate a high level of skill (relatively speaking)

[obsidian matrix]

Yeah, but remote is the only choice i have, the place where i live have nothing of I.T aside internet providers

[sleek egret]

employers do not care

[gritty rivet]

https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-software-engineers/

[obsidian matrix]

I know, but is there anything i can do? Other then move on to other city and try to find a job there?

[summer roost]

Remote workers generally need to be able to work independently. There were exceptions made during the pandemic due to everyone needing to work remotely, but now enough places are back to in person work, and the places who are still hiring remote workers are doing that as a way to attract talent - and those places can be picky, and choose to only hire people with experience.

[sleek egret]

when I say shit like "they don't care", it may seem like I'm being an asshole. I sympathize with your situation, but this is the reality of the world as it is.

[obsidian matrix]

Oh no, i understand, i know how things are, employers here in Brazil get shit on by the government, i have all respect for those who have the patience to create jobs around here

[gritty rivet]

Not really... Look harder (not here, see Rule 9) or settle for whatever you can find.

[sleek egret]

the simple fact is this: for every entry-level and jr position that is advertised, employers receive 100's of resumes. they will then prune that down to interview a handful of people and offer a job to 1 or 2. luckily, different employers prioritize different things, so even if you get rejected by the vast majority, you can get an interview by a few. which is, in the end, all you need.

[sleek egret]

again, employers do not care. you need to get this through your head. you have to position yourself so that employers look on you favorably vs other candidates. this is, in the end, all that matters.

[obsidian matrix]

Yeah, is there like any other alternatives for me? Like, is there any jobs i could do on my own after i finish the training?

[sleek egret]

what I mean is, it may be the gov's fault. it may be global warming's fault. it may be alien's fault. in the end, none of that matters to you in your situation.

[sleek egret]

there is no "finish training" for software development. when you stop learning, you quickly become unemployable.

[obsidian matrix]

That's not what i mean, i meant the trainig with Python and Django that i'm going for, i know it's not much, but i want to try to work with this, i'll continue to study when i get into a job

[gritty rivet]

We don't know the job market in Brazil. Assuming people use LinkedIn there like they do where I am, that's where I'd be if I were you. Find people who are doing what you want to be doing in your local area and get their advice, their feedback on your resume, etc.

[obsidian matrix]

actually i wanted to find a job globally, any place that speak english or portuguese is fair game for me, should i focus here in brazil?

[gritty rivet]

Yes, as the article I linked to explains, nobody is going to hire internationally for entry level roles

[raw gate]

Hi, guys. I want to find a job.

[obsidian matrix]

Thanks man, i'll read this article right now

[sleek egret]

that's not really how it usually works. generally speaking, companies in the US and EU do not hire foreigners directly because the regulatory hurdles are quite high. usually, they engage local (brazilian in your case) companies who hire people on their behalf. aka they use "outsourcing firms" or "body shops"

[obsidian matrix]

Oh i see

[gritty rivet]

If you're willing to earn extremely little money you can look at sites like Fiverr and Upwork but that is also very tough to break into with only entry-level skills

[sleek egret]

there are, of course exceptions. but you have to be ... well... exceptional for a US/EU firm to jump through the legal hoops to hire you. i.e. spend money and time to get you on top of your salary

[raw gate]

I know that there are many remote jobs because of COVID.

[obsidian matrix]

Yeah i was looking to work on Upwork, any dolar amount will be "fine" in brazil, but i don't think i'm ready for that yet, i don't even know what they expect of entry-level jobs there

[smoky quest]

Hi! what is your situation?

[unreal crescent]

is there anyone here who is familiar with dropshipping business?

[unreal crescent]

I got a job that you can do online that will surely converts sales for you bro

[gritty rivet]

!rules 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[sleek egret]

upwork doesn't have "entry level jobs". they have for-pay short-term contracts