career-advice

[pastel thunder]

depend on girth

[spark cobalt]

Yep, gym everyday

I don't eat tacos everyday btw. I eat tacos like biweekly

Oh no I'm fine on this regard

[sleek egret]

your parents took you to vegas a lot? wow

[spark cobalt]

Like 3 times? Not like every year or anything

[sleek egret]

oh... not so bad I guess. but still "so much of my childhood" made me think lots more, lol

[spark cobalt]

Just Circus Circus is a very memorable part of my childhood

[sleek egret]

I see. your 'rents weren't big on disney, eh?

[spark cobalt]

Nah we had annual passes for Disney for like 6 years, but we all grew out of it

Eventually it turned into Universal for a while but then we were all bored of it. Most of the fun was done in travelling

[sleek egret]

I can see you returning to school as an 8 yr old... your teacher asks the class "what did you do over the summer?" kids respond, "disney world!", "beach!", "camping!"... they get to Wilder... "we hit up vegas, babe"

[spark cobalt]

[dreamy spade]

I was applying for a Python Developer role. What are Flask microservices?

[buoyant seal]

Microroservices are... Code architecture? we could say even infrastructure architecture choice.

Recommendation to learn conventional core software engineering first though
#web-development message
#web-development message

Then books from Monolith to Microservices
and building microservices will give a picture to you

Best to first learn how to organize code into packages and building monolith, before jumping into microservices
otherwise more harm will be done than good

[near ocean]

Microservice is an architectural pattern and flask is a backend framework to build webservers with

[buoyant seal]

flask is python backend framework, one of three most popular.
It can serve html content directly, but also can work as REST API with serving JSON content and accepting JSON input
JSON REST API is commonly usually needed when Svelte/React stuff is asked
JSON REST API is not the only way how backend could work, but the most common one

Usually flask is applied together with SQLAlchemy + Alembic.
+Celery can always do some job

[celest patio]

how money

[coral vine]

blow honey

[spark cobalt]

OF

[near ocean]

CLI pipelines? Typo?

[buoyant seal]

We could also in addition mention, that microservices are essentially... a wormhole of problems 😁 a very deep wormhole leading to galaxy of new problems.
Because testing multiple applications located in multiple repositories/multiple applications is more complicated
as well as having monitoring and logging systems to observe its behavior.
As well as deploying it all.
Usually all those problems are fought with more stackpile of high level technologies thrown at it (more stuff needs to be known). But not all problems are compensated by that :/

[near ocean]

Or are mfs literally $ command1 | command2 | ... | commandN

[true harness]

it is a learned skill

[buoyant seal]

Tox / Nox is technically CLI pipeline (although never seen it requested in job requirements)
Taskfile.dev is technically CLI pipeline as well

[near ocean]

Its part of a pipeline, i dont think running a test suite counts as a pipeline

[dreamy spade]

Wtf. Min 5+ years with no benefits. Who would be okay with this?

[near ocean]

What kind of benefits

It depends of course, 5 years with no pension is unacceptable, 5 years with no life assurance policy could be fine

[smoky quest]

it's contractor. That's the norm

damn long contract though

[near ocean]

min 5+
Make up your damn mind lol

[smoky quest]

I would parse it as a contract that could be long running, not that you necessarily have to sign up for 5 years no matter what

[buoyant seal]

but checking conditions to leave would be still a good idea / possible penalties from that in a contract

[near ocean]

They expect at least 5 years is what im reading

[remote lake]

That would depend on what's on the other side of the 5th year..

[near ocean]

I think a 5y contractor position is a bit too long to entertain that idea

[dreamy spade]

“Get s**t done mentality” I like who wrote the job description. I want to work for them.

[remote lake]

most likely

[near ocean]

Yea i dont think you want that actually

[smoky quest]

yeah, that's typically sought in places where you can have the trust and freedom to do what's right

[true radish]

5+ years is not a contract! That’s a permanent role. Wonder why they set up like that? Thinking to not offer benefits and compensations otherwise available with permanent deal…

[peak halo]

it's not as big of a red flag as "we work hard and play hard"

[delicate bane]

"we are all one big family"

[deft herald]

Translation: we expect you to spend 18 hours a day at the office

[near ocean]

"We have a pool table in the lounge cause we're hip"

[buoyant seal]

great chance it will fall apart far earlier than 5 years 😁 i think it is just kind of type of request to try decreasing developer rotation while getting probably cheapest initial prices by hiring beginners (chances it will apart because of uncontrolled growth of tech debt getting high)

[smoky quest]

tbh, that's not really a red flag to me. It just means it's not the retirement home like some faangs can be.
The family thing on the other hand...

[near ocean]

It is a red flag lol, no you dont work hard or play hard jake, you nerdy square

[smoky quest]

actually I do

[peak halo]

what do you mean by retirement home?

[smoky quest]

cash in a paycheck and linger around.
faang can be quite relaxing for senior people. That's where they go to retire in my circle.

[true harness]

Looking to satisfy your need to nerd? EITR Technologies is committed to identifying and maintaining unicorn level talent who are driven to create solutions in support of big picture ideas from inception through operations and maintenance. EITR Technologies is totally rad; the bee's knees, the cat's pajamas. We're in the know and a totally happening place to work.
🥴

[near ocean]

How does one "play hard" at their workplace anyway
I dont count mandatory pub sessions as playing hard

And if by "play hard" they mean compensate you highly, why not just mention salary ranges and save both our times

[smoky quest]

they do mention them in california now

[near ocean]

30-250k kind of ranges?

[smoky quest]

they show the band

[near ocean]

On linkedin maybe 10% of posts have a range and most are linkedin estimates
Indeed is better but how are these ranges useful?

Like, thats a whole salary between low and high ends of the range

Also goddamn i should move to the us

[smoky quest]

There has been a law about it that has entered this year. So even if they don't display it, you could ask them about it.
For instance, we do display the band on our ads

[smoky quest]

see for instance https://careers.datadoghq.com/detail/2292480/?gh_jid=2292480

[near ocean]

That says 130-300k, this range is as useful as not having one at all

[smoky quest]

That's the typical band for a software engineer though. There is a large difference between early or late stage of software engineer.
it would be tighter at more well defined levels

https://careers.datadoghq.com/detail/4932023/?gh_jid=4932023 this one has a tighter range

[near ocean]

Thats a reasonable range yes
Unfortunate, the only early career ad there thats technical is for europe and has no range

These are very generic ads, i imagine if they like a candidate they sort them into seniority brackets or whatever hiring people do

Also i dont see any of this corporate cringe on these datadog ads, so thats a good sign
I dont understand why you'd mention phrases like those on a job ad, everyone is aware of the joke, youre only harming your company

[smoky quest]

most likely comes from different cultures and ways of looking at things

[delicate bane]

if you do come to austin

[unborn spruce]

I am an Indian. I will complete my graduation in May, 2023. If I choose data science as a career, would I be expected to be expert at new emerging technologies in Machine learning like GAN, etc . If so, I guess from now on, some really good technology could emerge approx every 2-3 years and then would I have to learn them all throughout my career?

[buoyant seal]

Yes, u will be expected to learn all new technologies and having 10 years of experience in them even if they were created only yesterday 😁

just kidding. The real answer is, you need to be just better of threshold of getting hired in comparison to other competitors

[unborn spruce]

apart from machine learning, what else is there in data science?

just data analytics and visualization or something else?

[buoyant seal]

https://github.com/MrMimic/data-scientist-roadmap
https://github.com/Moataz-Elmesmary/Data-Science-Roadmap
github roadmaps are the most cool ones

rumors claim, machine learning is actually data engineering for major part

-> #career-advice message

[delicate bane]

is this the part where i can plug this book for the nth time?

[buoyant seal]

one day going to read it too

[vapid jay]

does that go in depth on stuff like spark/glue or is it tech angnostic

[delicate bane]

might be too basic for some parts for you. but it is a good prequel for "designing data intensive applications" + more cloud architecture stuff

[delicate bane]

tech agnostic. there is even a chapter on how to select different technologies / put together different tech stacks

[buoyant seal]

i believe in reading basics first, no matter how basic they are (flashbacks to The Manga Guide to databases and Head First books)

[delicate bane]

bro their whole section on storage is really good, including relational, non-relational, and other databases

[delicate bane]

the point is because technologies come and go, you need to think about the "categories of technologies" instead — their tradeoffs, various use cases, etc.

[winter anchor]

Do you think my coding is good?

[unborn bridge]

install a linter and it'll automatically convert those single quotes to doubles, and you'll be ready for hire

[fathom hemlock]

linters don't usually change your code for you

[unborn bridge]

linters vs code formatters I suppose, although it's not a hill I'd die on

[unborn spruce]

hey, could you discuss with me in my python-help question I posted about Pydroid?

[abstract flare]

last time i was told 'We work hard and we play hard' during a job interview; he was referencing a nerf war that broke out from 5->5:30 every day before everyone was expected to go back to work.

[vapid jay]

do people skip the cloud practitioner cert for aws and go straight to solutions architect/dev one? I think my company would pay for the exam cost for one of them if I do it during my contract this year

[soft holly]

for interviews, should i know how to code the implementation of a data structure from scratch? or just how to use the predefined class?

[true harness]

depends on the data structure, imo. but common ones for sure. maybe not relatively obscure ones, like a fibonnaci heap or something

maybe that one isn't obscure enough 🤔

[soft holly]

common ones I should probably know how to implement from scratch though correct? even if there is predefined classes for it?

[true harness]

yeah. like, hashmaps, BSTs, linked lists. a BBST might be a stretch

[soft holly]

sounds good thanks 🙂

[unborn bridge]

15 years ago I was asked to write out a bubble sort function on loose leaf with a pen. I could do it then, but I couldn't do it now unless I googled it. You just don't write your own unless it's an interview question, which kinda makes them evil.

[soft holly]

100% understanding how to use a predefined implementation is wayyyyy easier than coding your own lol

[true harness]

good thing it's an interview question 😛. imo, you can't really understand a data structure or algorithm if you can't implement at least a basic version. if you don't recall it, you should be able to implement it from a description

[unborn bridge]

I think along the same lines, but if it were me I'd want a good explanation over a code sample, so understanding it is still important

[true harness]

well it's both. you talk through it while implementing. it's easy to memorize what to write, but not why

[soft holly]

is leetcode still super popular for interviews and such? i know it was some years back

[smoky quest]

it still is

[coral vine]

Elementary, my dear Watson

[delicate bane]

pick dev

unless you are going more devops direction. then solutions architect would be better

picking cloud practitioner would be a waste if your company is paying for it

honestly that one is a bit of waste either way

[vapid jay]

ya I'm thinking of going for dev ||i was just asked chatgpt about it lol||

[delicate bane]

are you contract-based? getting the aws dev cert will help you get your next gig easier

[vapid jay]

It's a one year and they say they want to keep me but I want to be ready for going after the next one

[delicate bane]

i think thats prudent

[smoky quest]

Depends on what you like and enjoy, or what you are optimizing for

what are you looking for in a career?

then CS would probably be more interesting than IT

great!
But don't just trust a random stranger. Do your homeworks too on that

[icy moat]

is computer science oversaturated?

[smoky quest]

no

[tacit sentinel]

Hello everyone, im a double major in Math and Computer Science. Im going to graduate next year and i decided i want to go into data science. I will take a data science course in Fall and probably ML in spring but i want to start learning python from scratch( they didnt teach it at my uni only java and C++). Any recommendation on how to start learning ( YT, book, course online.). i also joined a data science server but i figured out before i jump into it i need to know the Baisics of python. Thanks in advance

[delicate bane]

"automate the boring stuff" is a good place to start

[tacit sentinel]

can i know what i expect to learn from this book?

python basics?

[delicate bane]

take a look https://automatetheboringstuff.com/

[tacit sentinel]

Thanks alot. will give it a look

[uneven plover]

Hello. Can you suggest tutorials for a beginner like me?

[spark cobalt]

Read 2 messages above.

[fleet delta]

omg this place gets 5 of these same questions per day

[spark cobalt]

And they're not even career related too

[spare merlin]

What's the average age of people to get into faang or another company as a software engineer/developer?

[spark cobalt]

Probably somewhere near the average age of all developers minus the average tenure there

[spare merlin]

@modern ore you guys are so dumb i just asked a simple question and yet here we are🤷

[glass hare]

thoughts on streamlit? I went with it for my task (not really a programmer at my company), but thinking I should have leveraged the time to get flask working
I got scared of having to use javascript lol

[outer granite]

Is a full-time job manageable while doing bachelors? I would like to pursue a degree in CS or SE and do a job as a web developer.

[near ocean]

You got your answer, now chill

[white torrent]

Lectures + assignments on top of a full time job is definitely not feasible

I’m doing a CS degree currently that requires some years of study and some years of working on a placement in a SE company and both are plenty on their own, both would be unmanageable at the same time

[true harness]

depends on how good you are at school and your job

[dreamy spade]

Do Software Developer actually develop 8 hours per shift?

[dreamy spade]

I personally couldn’t manage a full-time job and go to university/college full-time. Assignments pile up and gets overwhelming.

[unborn bridge]

The biggest company I worked for had a "50% focus factor" built into our planning, where we simply assumed that half the time the developer would be doing other things, like reading, talking to people, or browsing facebook. Some places are like that, and some places install software to punish you for viewing non-work content.

[unborn bridge]

Learning how to effectively communicate with people you disagree with, or people you just don't like, is going to be more valuable to you than software skills. Even if you're the worst troll from Call of Duty, you can still learn how to interact with people in successful ways.

[true harness]

what do you mean by "develop". if you mean physically typing code, then no. but if you use a broader definition, their entire job is to develop

[dreamy spade]

Are you serious? You get to browse Facebook while you are on the job? And get out of your seat to just talk to people?

[true harness]

the Facebook one is probably not ideal, but collaboration is essential

[unborn bridge]

We were trusted to get our work done regardless of what we were doing in the moment

[white torrent]

Same here, as long as we get tickets in at a reasonable pace and hit deadlines it doesn’t matter too much what we’re doing in between

[idle sleet]

Hi, guys.
Does anybody know how can I get a job or make money online?

I'm willing to work 40 hours / week.

[unborn bridge]

Generic questions tend to yield generic responses. You'll likely be told to simply apply online for remote jobs in which you have the skills required to do the work.

[idle sleet]

But there's none out there

Unless I have like 3 years+ of experience

[dreamy spade]

That’s sounds like paradise to me. Have you guys worked in a warehouse? You always have to be on the go. There’s no stopping until you have break or lunch.

[unborn bridge]

It tends to be skewed towards either people with many years of experience, or people who can prove they're still in school. Finding entry-level jobs for non-students is a rough path I know well :/

[white torrent]

Job before my SE job was a factory yeah, no chance to take breaks at all

[idle sleet]

I'm a student in high school and I feel like there's no option to make money for me

[white torrent]

There were pros and cons to doing a physical job with no thought involved same as there is to doing a desk job which requires thought, but defo gotta say I love what I’m at now

[white torrent]

Internships my g

[unborn bridge]

I'd like to suggest that you've gotten the wrong impression. It can be frustrating, especially with a lack of feedback from companies that reject you, but what you're looking for does exist, and you will find it if you keep looking

[true harness]

remote in hs is highly unlikely

[idle sleet]

I don't think so to be honest. I've been looking for something for over 3 months now.

There's nothing out there unless I'm the best in some freelance skill or unless I have 3+ years of experience.

[near ocean]

There are many options to make money, just not in software dev

[dreamy spade]

You’re saying getting a job as a software developer is not an option?

[near ocean]

Not as a high school student

[true harness]

not as a high schooler, remote

[near ocean]

Who in their right minds would hire a HS student full time

[white torrent]

A summer internship would probs be the best stepping stone into being closer to getting it

[idle sleet]

Who was talking about full time?

[white torrent]

Would kinda need to be for software devs

[near ocean]

.

[idle sleet]

I'm just looking for some small basic job to get 1,000$ / month.

I can work 40 hours a week yeah.

[true harness]

I make that at fast food easily. it's not a lot for full time work in the us

[near ocean]

Go work at a restaurant, a warehouse, idk what high school students do these days

[true harness]

I'm not sure if you're in the US, but that's very achievable even at minimum wage

[idle sleet]

But there's only one fast food that hires in my surroundings and it's quite far so it doesn't make sense to travel there everyday and back

[true harness]

it doesn't have to be fast food. just anything that you could reasonably get

[dreamy spade]

I would deliver newspapers

[near ocean]

Nothing that close, i spend about 2h maybe actually writing code and the rest of the work day is playing grep simulator and waiting for people to make up their damn minds about what I should implement

[idle sleet]

I couldn't find anything.

[dreamy spade]

That’s unreal

[true harness]

there are no jobs for people with only a high school diploma in your area?

[idle sleet]

Yeah, there's this option. But it pays like 5$ / hour

[dreamy spade]

Are all white collar jobs like this?

[near ocean]

No, but i work from home, what can they do, spy on me?

[idle sleet]

I haven't finished high school yet. I have 1 year to go

[near ocean]

Its not that im unwilling to work, im just blocked internally by others

[dreamy spade]

Ahhh. So I guess that’s a perk of working remotely.

[idle sleet]

Yes.

[true harness]

in the US (I prefix with this because idr where you're from), you can hire high schoolers, there are just restrictions on hours able to be worked

[idle sleet]

After I finish High school.

[idle sleet]

It's the same in here (Czechia 🇨🇿 )

I guess the biggest problem is that every job here is 18+. But I'm just 17 years old.

So it's impossible to find something under 18.

[outer granite]

You can still get outsourced jobs.

[near ocean]

Enjoy your teenage years instead?

[idle sleet]

Oh really? What do you expect me to do? Go around pubs and clubs, drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, do drugs? At least this is what people around me do and they say they're enjoying their life

[near ocean]

Every 13-18 year old in #career-advice trying to grow up too fast and everyone I know already in the workforce is wishing they went back to their school years

[outer granite]

I like to think about it this way, start working since teenage years, gather up experience and money and then enjoy your lifestyle in your late 20s & early 30s.

[idle sleet]

Exactly.

[near ocean]

How's it working out for you?

[true harness]

well, i'm still in the teenage years. will update in 15 years

[outer granite]

It's going slow, but it is in progress.

[idle sleet]

I have to disagree with you on that.

[true harness]

how do you disagree with "everyone i know". it''s an anecdote lol

[near ocean]

how can you disagree, youre the 17 year old trying to find full time employment and im the 27 year old wishing i could be 15 again

[idle sleet]

It doesn't matter. You'll not understand me anyways.

[near ocean]

Anyway, I think @digital fjord is Czech so if he's up for an answer for you he'll respond later

[near ocean]

Not to be dismissive but literally everyone has a "you dont understand what im feeling" phase, grow up

[idle sleet]

??

[true harness]

mariosis on his way to form youths in their formative years

[white relic]

older people probably understand you better than you realize. we were your age once.
That's not to say that older people always know better but age brings perspective.

[digital fjord]

yeah, I wouldn't keep your hopes up. You definitely cannot have a full time job under 18, and hiring someone underage across borders is... unlikely. I used to make some extra pocket money at that age with freelancing, but that relied mostly on nepotism and connections, so not sure to what extent that can replicated. If you want to do something productive at that age, open source projects are starved for contributions. If you need more money, no idea.

[idle sleet]

I don't want full time job. I want something to make few bucks a day

Btw sites like Fiverr or Upwork are impossible to get recognized there and start selling... Freelance nowadays is really difficult

It's overcrowded as hell. You need to be really good at your skill to make money through that.

[spare merlin]

@idle sleet i think you should learn some money making skills and work hard and gather as much as information you can so you could apply them and earn money when you reach 22 or something. Earning money in early age is not that beneficialif there is no emergency. I would suggest using your teenage years wisely. YK people say we are most energetic in these years. So i would rather not suggest to waste those years on part time jobs. Still it's your life you can do whatever you want✌️

[digital fjord]

yeah, online freelancing sites are not viable

[unkempt talon]

Having a job is preferable to going to school

[idle sleet]

Yeah I have plans to improve my life to enjoy it more but I need few grands to start with. Almost nothing is free nowadays.

[unkempt talon]

@idle sleet I'm your age and I know something that can make you money off of your programming skills. I won't tell you what it is though.

[idle sleet]

Why you even send message here then?

[unkempt talon]

Just to piss you off

[near ocean]

Im guessing your ages are 13-18 @unkempt talon@modern ore

[idle sleet]

Thanks 🙂

[unkempt talon]

Tomorrow I'll turn 18

[true harness]

school will vastly increase your employment opportunities. if you want to keep flipping burgers for the rest of your life, this is good advice

[unkempt talon]

Good thing education is free where I live and I'll heckin take advantage of that :3

[unborn bridge]

Are your schools full of rotting garbage due to the protests?

[spare merlin]

@idle sleet YK when i was 16 17 i use to think same i would think all days how to make money and stuff. But now that I'm in college i understand that you have to be really good at something. Don't ever think of earning money first but learn and enjoy. You have to understand that money will come eventually no matter what.

[analog sun]

Lets keep it civil, it looks like the convos are spiraling a bit

[unkempt talon]

I mean generally speaking jobs are more pleasant than school and at least you get paid at the end of the month. @unborn bridge no

[spare merlin]

@unkempt talon the knowledge and exposure you get is alot more than few bucks.

[digital fjord]

honestly, I looked into these a while back and it pretty much turns out that it is vastly more efficient long-term to just... wait. Nothing you can do at 17 actually makes a meaningful sum, and once you are at an IT uni, you can get tech interships/jobs which are better paid than a normal part time job, and take less effort, and about guarantee you a job after graduating.

[idle sleet]

I understand your point. I feel it the same. I want to learn some high value skill like Front-End Development, but for that I need some money for example to buy some devices.

[unkempt talon]

yes education is valuable. school can be a negative experience for some. the things you learn are worth it though

[balmy mural]

I'm with marios on this one. I didn't have a part time job during school. I'm glad I had the free time to spend how I liked instead of waiting tables in the evenings just to have more money to spend on weekends. Internships/part time jobs when you hit university is a much better time investment and will earn you a lot more to just wait it out till then

[digital fjord]

Yeah, at least at my school, it is often said that the job is less stressful and leaves you more time than studying. Though IMO a big part of that is how many people work during their studies.

[spare merlin]

@idle sleet oh well i would say you can work for some time and earn required amount then leave. But don't get stuck in part time jobs. It is gonna waste you potential.

[unkempt talon]

@idle sleet do you live in Eastern Europe?

[idle sleet]

Yeah that's what I want to do.

[idle sleet]

Central Europe (Czechia 🇨🇿 )

[near ocean]

There are plenty of jobs where you could make some money as a 17 year old, just not software development

[spare merlin]

@idle sleet good thing it's clear then. You got your goals now go out and implement. You have only one asset and that's time. Best of luck.

[unkempt talon]

you can make money with software development at this age. my friend made UIs with a certain public framework and sold them. he bought a car with that money and has enough to pay for his college tuition right now

[idle sleet]

Don't know about any.

[digital fjord]

not in czechia really. Even during highschool, people who were working at 15 had connections (such as family owning a restaurant), everyone else got jobs at 18

the legal red tape for employing people below 18 makes things annoying. I also heard of people getting themselves a business (which you can do starting at 16 with some extra legal process) and selling managed wordpress hosting. Apparently that was profitable like... 5 years ago.

[near ocean]

I guess all they can do is wait then

[digital fjord]

yeah, or ask their parents, they may know someone who needs computer help or something

[near ocean]

i guess that also means they shouldnt worry about it and enjoy the down time they have now

[unkempt talon]

(what does non-compete mean?)

[digital fjord]

Working super hard in czechia isn't exactly useful, if you are interested in the pure capitalist work every waking hour kinda lifestyle, erasmus yourself into the US of A and figure out how to stay there. Don't exhaust yourself in a country where an amazing job nets you about less than 40k$ a year.

@solar torrentplease read #❓｜how-to-get-help

ah good, you already did

in that case, please don't crosspost messages

[near ocean]

Clean up on channel #career-advice please <@&831776746206265384>

[woven apex]

@solar torrent Lakmatiol already referred you to use the help system, and you have a thread open, yet you continue to crosspost here.
One last time: please stop.
The messages made here were removed.
Any further attempts to crosspost here will not end well.

[solar torrent]

@woven apex
Stop sending shit

[near ocean]

aight, for real now
I have a friend that recently applied and interviewed at Citadel, his career journey was not to jump straight to it
He started at a big bank, went to an asset manager and now he is trying to get into Citadel and similar

[sleek egret]

yar

[near ocean]

UK, idk specifics about positions, he's a quant dev

[sleek egret]

it's a bit odd that the guy did nothing for the 2 years of his non-compete. but presumably, since he had a term at citadel he's otherwise quite strong. so it's just a "huh?" rather than a big red flag.

he'll probably just say he wanted to take a break. which is fair enough. I've taken six months off before, so <shrug>

[near ocean]

ofc he's from a top university and i imagine that makes a world of difference but yea, dont try to jump straight to citadel or jane street
most likely you wont get in

[sleek egret]

yes, that's plus

[near ocean]

He's from Imperial 💀 both my quant friends are

[sleek egret]

as long as it's not LSE

what are "OA"?

oh. those are just pre-filters 🙂

[near ocean]

How do you know

are these the same people that say they failed a test and get 99%

[sleek egret]

they probably do what we do, which is use those sort of tests as a minimum bar filter. that is, as long as you do better than x%, your resume gets looked at closer.

[idle sleet]

@digital fjord @near ocean @spare merlin

I was wondering, I can still make money online. I think there are websites that will pay me to do some work. Or there are clients that need some help.

I just don't know about any.

[sleek egret]

remember, 2nd place just means you're the first loser!

[idle sleet]

There are websites like Rev.com which pay for transcribing videos.

[near ocean]

Those usually require you to be 18+

[idle sleet]

Some of those do. Anyways, you can bypass that 🕵️

[near ocean]

If you're going to lie, why not lie about your age on Software Dev applications then

My imposter syndrome currently prevents me from accepting a referral, I hate it

I feel like I'd fail incredibly and expose my friend or something

[spare merlin]

@idle sleet i would suggest do not go for online most of the time they are scam or they might not pay at all. Genuine one's won't hire without checking your skills.

[near ocean]

(or your ID)

[idle sleet]

Oh my god. This all 18+ system is broken.

[spare merlin]

@idle sleet dude invest you time on learning stuffs you genuinely like. Don't go for money or you might end up in a career where you would be making money working 9-10 hours a day but not happy. So it's not a great deal acc to me🤷

[near ocean]

you'll have 45 years to worry about money, jesus christ

[spare merlin]

@near ocean yes you are right

Money will come eventually@near ocean

[idle sleet]

But you don't understand that I need just like 1-3 grands to work with. To get the basic needs and everything around it.

[spare merlin]

@idle sleet go earn offline. You might not find good clients online

[idle sleet]

Like I can even work as a Janitor for 1-3 months and then leave. But I can't even find that.

[analog sun]

Surely there is a local restaurant that needs an extra dishwasher (that was my first job and it was great)

[white relic]

if you have to work to live, food, clothing, rent, all that kind of stuff, 1-3k is not going to make a dent in that
if you don't need to work to live, 3k is not really worth working yourself into knots about. That's pocket money to spend on the weekends, like somebody said earlier

what are you planning to do with it that will make such a big difference in your life?

[spare merlin]

@idle sleet finding clients online is even more hard. I'm sure you will get job. Don't loose hope. I understand your situation.

[idle sleet]

thanks!

[idle sleet]

Get myself a laptop to study what I want. Get myself keyboard, mouse, headphones. Buy myself some healthcare products, acne products, food supplements. And few other things...

[white relic]

It just seems to me the degree of stressing out about money you're doing now is disproportionate to its long term effect on your life.

[spare merlin]

YK I'm in india. Here getting job is really really tough and people look down upon you if you are underage and work. They start thinking that you have financial problems and all. They even start to show fake concerns. Hell even if you are tutoring. Can you believe it?

[near ocean]

Ask your parents for an allowance?

[spare merlin]

I just completed 18 last july. I passed my class 12 in 2021. And i really wanted to go to a engineering college. But sadly due to very tight competition i couldn't make it rn I'm doing my bachelor's of science in computer science from a really good university and i will go for masters also. Hope I'll get a good job by the age of 25.

[idle sleet]

Do you think I should go around restaurants in my city and ask them if they need help?
I think though if they needed someone, they would make online job offer.

[honest pivot]

It's not uncommon for quant firms like Citadel to put you on "garden leave" for a year or two when you leave for another quant firm. It's a paid non-compete period during which you are not allowed to work. It's to give you time to forget things that might be useful to other firms, and also gives enough time to make sure any strategies you know about will no longer be useful. (Most firms it's 1 year, Citadel is a bit more paranoid and has more money to throw around).

[spare merlin]

@idle sleet don't wait for them to make online job offer. Just go around and get it who knows you may get on day 1 only. Besides going out is no harm ig.

[idle sleet]

But what I do not understand is that there's nobody out there who needs someone to do Data entry for example.
Someone who opens MS Excel or Google Sheets and enters some text, numbers, data.

[near ocean]

You're wondering why the most automate-able task in the world has no job postings, in a server for a language used most often for automating tasks like that

[idle sleet]

...

You clearly have no idea about amateurish companies.

[near ocean]

Have you applied to university?

[idle sleet]

In my country there are many small companies which have no idea about using something like AI or programming to deal with repetitive tasks.

[unborn bridge]

You went from being certain they don't exist, to being certain they do?

[near ocean]

You don't need AI to automate stuff like that, its a couple lines of python/JS/VBA/PowerShell

[idle sleet]

It was ironic.

[idle sleet]

I know. I meant something like Chat GPT for copywriting etc.

[near ocean]

Anyway, have you applied to university? Are you waiting to hear back?

[idle sleet]

No I haven't. I can't apply to university yet.

[near ocean]

You said you're 17? Are you not about to graduate?

[idle sleet]

No. I have 1-2 whole school years to go

That's what I want to do.

? were you here

[near ocean]

Prepare by learning, building personal projects, socialising
Do you have an urgent need for money and your parents can't cover it?

[idle sleet]

There's not the option.

[near ocean]

Why not?
You can't just say something's not working and not explain why its not

[idle sleet]

@modern ore

Just want to let you know that I'm sorry for you.

[idle sleet]

Never mind, forget everything.

[coral vine]

Gasp I got another interview email yesterday yay! I got one last Friday and it’s scheduled for tomorrow morning

And I got one last night but I haven’t picked a day yet cuz I just saw 😃

[idle sleet]

@modern ore Maybe one day you will grow up

[near ocean]

Have we been trolled this entire time

[sleek egret]

maybe someday you can add another σ

[idle sleet]

No you haven't. I'll have to work it out myself.

[near ocean]

Good luck I guess

[idle sleet]

Grow up.

[idle sleet]

Do you think I should try freelancing in graphic design / logo design with these skills?

https://imgur.com/a/fDwbGkc

[near ocean]

You can try but again, you'll have to either be 18+ to sign contracts or have your parents do it for you
And also, you won't have a portfolio of existing designs/products, how would you find work?

[ivory sluice]

@tranquil relic please post this in #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare since it's off topic

[dreamy spade]

I was really under the impression that as a software developer, you will be writing, testing and debugging code 8 hours a day.

Basically, pure typing on the keyboard with a headset on.

[deft herald]

nope

[white relic]

there are many misconceptions about real jobs among people who have never had one

that isn't meant to be a dig, just... how would you know?

[white torrent]

Nah there’s a lot of meetings and then general planning in between stretches of code

[unborn bridge]

Software developer was the easiest and most laid-back job I've ever had, even on days when I was coding a lot. It's an absolute paradise compared to blue collar labor jobs where you're paid far less, and treated far worse.

[balmy mural]

In my current role I am spending the majority of my day writing, testing and debugging. But I'm on a new project, it's a good way to get familiar with it. As I get more comfortable with the codebase I'll very likely be pulled into more meetings

[ivory sluice]

where you guys work what are review requirements like, and whose job is it to make sure PRs get reviews?

[deft herald]

To be fair, a good portion of your hours do go to these 3 categories, but yeah there is a lot of reading, writing emails, planning, helping others, seeking help from others, etc.

[white relic]

jobs young people tend to have (flipping burgers, mixing drinks...) actually are a lot of the same kind of work for most of the time so it's an understandable mistake

[deft herald]

Depends on the project, but on my immediate team it's whomever created the PR. Then we have a 2x/week meeting where we sort of go through all of the high-level changes made since the last meeting

We do have some automated CI testing too though

[balmy mural]

Tech company where our entire team is outsourced to a bank. Review requirements is everyone on the dev team gets added to the PR (team of 7 devs) to review, and everyone has to approve before it can go to merge unless it's a time sensitive issue. Then our tech lead +1 more has to approve to go to merge

[ivory sluice]

wow the whole dev team of 7 has to approve? and what do you mean by outsourced to a bank. you're the outsource?

9 people total including tech lead and +1?

[deft herald]

Yeah that feels like a lot of rubber stamps to me

[dreamy spade]

I never tested any of my Python code before. Do you recommend that look into writing test cases for Python code if I want to work as a Software Developer or is that job for Quality Assurance?

[deft herald]

Anyone who writes code should probably be writing some kind of tests, too

[white torrent]

QA will help you out but good unit tests are a requirement and it’ll usually be on the dev to do that

[balmy mural]

No, 7 devs total in our team (Including tech lead in that number). Time sensitive issues just need our tech lead + one other dev to approve to go to merge. This would normally be hotfixes to anything in prod/preprod

[graceful mason]

We have a pretty automated system where you give an MR a review tag depending on the area you're changing, then it gets assigned to someone from a pool and posted to slack for visibility. Only need 1 reviewer for most MRs but longer ones require 2

[deft herald]

Actually, the product i work on is itself a test framework, but it even needs its own tests

[balmy mural]

We are the outsource. Bank has internal teams and outsourced teams working on the same overall system, but they have 4 outsourced teams working on the specific product in that system from the company I'm at

[white torrent]

Meta af

[pastel thunder]

so an engineer from company i applied accepted my connection, its been 10 days since i applied and no response
so should i ask him about his first, or get his views on my resume etc?
i means what to do? hes not a recruiter, so asking him for status seems wrong, is it?

[deft herald]

"accepted my connection" what does this mean?

[white torrent]

LinkedIn I assume

[deft herald]

If it's just some random engineer you found on LinkedIn, then no i would not contact them about a job you applied for

[balmy mural]

Highly unlikely he'll be in the loop with the recruitment status. 10 days is still a short time, but you could contact the recruiter and ask for an update

[ivory sluice]

if someone higher up or a PM is asking why a feature isn't complete yet and it's because no one has reviewed it yet, is it your job as the PR author to get someone to review it?

[deft herald]

yes

If you have a feature assigned to you, it's your job to see that it gets done. Whatever that means

If you're blocked on someone else for whatever reason, it's still your job to follow up with them

[ivory sluice]

yeah, makes sense. and if you're blocked it's something you have to bring up during a stand up?

[white torrent]

Yep, standup is usually what you’ve done, what you’re going to do and then blockers

[near ocean]

for us its 2 team members to approve, any 2
sometimes other teams request our approvals as well so more than 2 would be needed in those cases
Our team lead chases us for approvals and urges others to look at outstanding PRs before it gets out of hand

Sometimes you gotta moan at people to look at your code, I recently found out that there's an "important" flag in Teams
Hoping to use it soon lmao

[ivory sluice]

there's also one that pings them every n minutes. which sounds terrible lol

[near ocean]

lol, about to be a nightmare at work then

[sleek egret]

sometimes ya gotta be the squeaky wheel

[zealous path]

For my job I’m working off branches from my line manager usually so I could just push them myself but it’s more courteous for him to look over it first.

For my wife it’s just that more than half of the team need to approve

[vapid jay]

hey i wanted to create a excel or google sheets clone in react.js how can i acheive it?

[prime prism]

Hey! I'm a startup owner looking to outsource python data science development. If anyone knows a way to get bids from dev shops without going through platforms like UpWork, please, lmk

[peak halo]

sounds like your question is about javascript, so try one of the three off-topic channels.

[buoyant seal]

there are outsourcing companies, like noveo, dataart and etc.
I am slightly remembering among them outsourcing company specialized on data science stuff i think let me find its name.... found. VacuumLab guys https://vacuumlabs.com/
They offer development at their teams, complete outsourcing, and also out-staffing where they augment your team with their members

[solar torrent]

@vestal pelican

Uh it was some extra space

[summer roost]

Wrong channel?

[solar torrent]

@summer roost in #python-discussion , I can't attach images

[summer roost]

Correct. Please don't spam other on-topic channels to avoid that restriction. You can use an off topic channel, or a help channel.

[solar torrent]

Grow up

[delicate bane]

that is very rude for someone asking for help. please respect the channel topics.

[summer roost]

!tempban 985951964779139132 7d Insulting a moderator who was gently reminding you of the rules was not wise.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @solar torrent until <t:1679852015:f> (7 days).

[west badger]

Can you guys list me some usa affordable and good states for university for international students?

[dense bough]

hello

[ivory sluice]

you currently reside outside the US? i was an international student but got to pay in-state tuition in new york bc i lived there for the required number of years

[west badger]

Yes I am currently in India and want to apply for a university in usa with an affordable location and good too

[dense bough]

I am 15 years old and I am Turkish. I want to learn python

[west badger]

@ivory sluice

[zealous path]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[hidden cove]

I am 13.99999 and I would like to learn python.

[deft herald]

So that makes your birthday what, 40 min from now?

[summer roost]

mm. John Carmack on a question that comes up here all too often: https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1637087219591659520

John Carmack (@ID_AA_Carmack)

From a DM, just in case anyone else needs to hear this.

Likes

17749

Retweets

3270

Twitter · Mar 18, 2023, 1:43 PM

[sleek egret]

bah, screw helping people

[coral vine]

It’ll be like the Walmart self checkout line where there’s a person just standing there, monitoring 10 self check out machines except

Instead of self checkout machines, it’s ai

And we just stand there and make sure the machines charge extra for those organic bananas

Because the machine can’t tell the difference for that and that makes us valuable

[ivory sluice]

i'm not sure how tuition costs vary between states, but public state universities will be more affordable than private institutions. do you have any student guidance services in your school to explore your options? i personally don't know of anyone that's achieved this so i don't have any tips i could give you

(that's not to say it can't be done, there were plenty of international and non-US-resident students at my school, but the ones i knew had no problem paying any amount for anything)

[deft herald]

Won't even be checkouts IMO. Just a combination of cameras and sensors on shelves combined with online payments tied to biometrics, you'll just walk into a store, grab what you need, and leave

[summer roost]

that seems pretty unlikely to me. I think we're a very long way from having any sort of AI that can interpret business requirements and build systems that need to evolve over time. It's much easier to imagine AI that can define functions that humans need to refine and stitch together. Something like stock photos, I suppose.

[delicate bane]

literally this. kat was also going to take a stab at writing something up/elaborating on their point yesterday about the "AI taking over" convo

[peak halo]

As it stands, self-checkout systems depend on some level of honesty from the customers (at least for produce). There's no reason why an AI wouldn't be able to distinguish between organic and GMO, as long as it can measure properties of the produce that distinguish the two.

[smoky quest]

or said produces include tags of some sort (ex: nfc or some other new fancy bio tags)

[buoyant seal]

As long as gets stolen less than amount of removed salaries, it is a win (for company owner)

[sleek egret]

that seems like an invitation for looting to me

[true harness]

until they add the sentry guns

[sleek egret]

samsung will you sell you those

here's the promo vid => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQHVwYL1we4

[true harness]

you are not

[spark cobalt]

Earlier than almost all

[patent abyss]

Thanks for the respondings guys. Nice to her ill keep up with learning

[twilit musk]

What’s up everyone

I am just starting out learning

My community college last fall semester, fall 2022, they had “intro to programming” and my teacher chose to teach it in Python using zyBooks.com

Uh…I had to take a break halfway through the course due to trouble with my housing, I explained to the teacher what was going on, so they gave me permission to finish the course at my own pace later

So now I’m trying to get back into it. It’s intimidating having to re-whet those neural pathways

[kindred rock]

It seems like I have a chance of getting a telegram bot developer position.
What would you guys recommend?

What module should I use?

Hm... It seems like python-telegram-bot is the best option...

[smoky quest]

it depends on your goals, location, background, previous experience, etc.

[hearty island]

lol i’m sending cold emails for a project management internship

[buoyant seal]

!rule 9 , such stuff is not welcome here. Delete the message

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[dreamy spade]

It’s always the entry level positions that have this high number of applicants 😡

[near ocean]

Ignore the number, just apply

[coral vine]

Wow what website did you find that from ? O.o

[dreamy spade]

I’ll have a 1 / 3487 chance of getting selected for an interview.

[coral vine]

Don’t say chance. That’ll trigger em. Shh…

[smoky quest]

chances aren't uniform

[near ocean]

Im entirely convinced those numbers are fake to get you to buy whatever premium service they sell

[dreamy spade]

And apparently recruiters don’t even check all of the resumes if the number of applicants are too high.

[dreamy spade]

LinkedIn.

[near ocean]

Interviews arent offered to a single applicant

[smoky quest]

that's true. Imagine you have your normal job, and then shitload of applicants on top of it. If you spend 1min on each 3487 applicants, that's almost 60hours non stop

[near ocean]

Apply, mark it down on a spreadsheet or wherever you track apps and move on

[true harness]

what do they do then? that seems to imply that there's some sort of automatic filtering being done? you also said in the past that automatic filtering is not done

[summer roost]

automated systems attempt to extract relevant information from the submitted resumes, hiring managers use that extracted data to guide their decisions about which resumes to review, and candidates who pass a resume review get offered an interview.

[smoky quest]

They do X per weeks, sometimes skip some.
Note also that the 3987 candidates were over 19 days. So if you spend 30s on each resume and spread it over time, that's doable to keep up with that many candidates

However, regardless of how many you can read, there are still so many people you can call for 45min-1h on a given week. But that's okay as you can afford to be more picky given you have so many candidates

[summer roost]

it's more useful to think of this as sorting than as filtering. There's no automated system that's just throwing out resumes, but the automated system is providing guidance to human reviewers about which resumes are worth looking at first. The ones that look most promising will be where the time gets spent, and the ones that look least promising aren't gonna get looked at unless the well of promising sounding resumes begins to run dry.

[smoky quest]

yeah, I would typically have multiple rounds to keep the top k, be it through intermediary lists or by ejecting the ones that do not fit. And obviously spending more time on the worthy or interesting ones

[true harness]

a heap!. i see. so less "filtering", but since there are so many applicants, if you're not in the top say, x%, you're essentially filtered due to time constraints

[smoky quest]

yep

That's also why sometimes a candidate receives replies much later, because of so many candidates

[true harness]

seems reasonable enough

[smoky quest]

And that's also why the chances of the candidates aren't uniformly distributed

[summer roost]

the hiring pipeline on the company's side is made up of regular people who are trying to do a good job of selecting a candidate. It really ought to seem reasonable. These systems don't spring up out of nowhere, they're iterated on and perfected by companies over years of hiring people. (Well, maybe "perfected" is overselling it, but the hiring processes should at least seem sane)

[true harness]

yeah. that would be absurd, even if they did spend the same amount of time on each

[smoky quest]

And note also that all the interviewing activities are done on top of the regular activities. Code still has to ship, teams still have to work and releases still need to happen

[coral vine]

I imagine it’s like they have a google search engine software except

Instead of all web data, it’s for only resume data

However that thing sorts by relevancy o.o

[smoky quest]

That's what linkedin tries to provide 🙂

[summer roost]

a spreadsheet is a more useful mental model for what an ATS provides. The hiring manager who's making use of that data can decide which dimensions they want to filter on or sort by.

it's humans making decisions, using data extracted from resumes or recorded from previous applications to inform their choices.

[coral vine]

Wait don’t all websites do this?

Like buying an item on eBay
Is the same as finding a room to rent on Craigslist

Which is the same as looking for a job on indeed

They all use a checkbox option, drop down menu, search bar o.o

The resume sorting is the same too?

[summer roost]

they all provide those options because those are the options that the humans making decisions need - only show me products that run Android, where the cost is less than $400 or something.

[true harness]

hmm. only show me productsapplicants that know fast api 🤔

[summer roost]

yep. conceptually, hiring managers are doing stuff like that when deciding which candidates appear to have the best chances of passing the interview (and therefore, which candidates they should focus their efforts on)

[smoky quest]

except that you may also be okay if they know flask, or django or have had experience with spring in java

[buoyant seal]

i made few pet projects using fastapi, and called it.. for my resume as i know it 😁

[coral vine]

Someone should make a game called “hiring manager simulator”

It would be an educational game for applicants 😃

The game could have DLC for different industries

It’s like how they have

Goat simulator
Motorcycle mechanic simulator
Build my pc simulator
Farm tractor simulator
Etc

[true harness]

would be amusing

[summer roost]

I think the single most helpful thing to bear in mind is that there's actual humans on the other side of the process, trying to make good, informed choices.

[coral vine]

Slim shady

[summer roost]

trustworthy in what sense?

I mean, what do you want to know if you can trust them to do?

[coral vine]

Disguising as a contract recruiter seems like a pretty effective social engineering tactic if they wanted to steal candidate information or acquire free labor

Like preying on people who don’t understand how contracts work, etc.

I was wondering the same too. Isn’t this a very common thing too? Even if it’s not a scam and they are being honest. It’s hard to know how to define that a job is done for both ends?

There was a documentary that talked about how they put “sell your soul” into “terms of conditions“ to measure how unaware we have all become. I’m thinking something similar for this xD

[summer roost]

Disguising as a contract recruiter seems like a pretty effective social engineering tactic
what do you mean when you say "contract recruiter"? I don't think we're on the same page, because I can't imagine how that could be true

in fact, what do you mean when you say "contract recruiter"?

[coral vine]

There’s always a fine print that people are not literate enough to understand, don’t have time, don’t have money for lawyer to check, like credit cards

Oh for me, When I think of contract recruiter, I’m thinking about a small company business like maybe 5 people.

But I wouldn’t be worried if it was a big government company hiring for a contract role

[summer roost]

so you mean a permanent employee of a company who is recruiting a contractor to work on some project. Well, you're right that contracts can get sticky if the contractor thinks the work is complete and the employer thinks there's more to be done. Contracts to complete a specific project need to have a very clear definition of what constitutes "complete" for exactly that reason. However, most software contracts - at least in my experience - are not for completing a particular project, but are instead for working for a particular length of time. And those contracts don't have that pitfall: no one can argue that it hasn't been 6 months

contracts for a single individual (as opposed to a company) to complete some project are pretty much unheard of outside of the gig economy, at least in the US - though I guess it might happen for very small mom-and-pop shops...

most freelancers have their own company (even if they're the only employee), and that company is the entity that signs contracts.

[coral vine]

Oh thanks for the explanation. Freelancing wasn’t taught in school Dx

I just apply to big companies since I don’t understand contract roles.

So you mean people who apply to those contract roles already took the time to create their own company entity? I didn’t know that o.o so I guess those positions are for more established people instead of people that just came from school.

I took a generic “business law” class in college, maybe understood 5% of it, but there was like 15 chapters talking about all the ways contracts go wrong Dx

Also, don’t really know how contracts are enforced o.o can’t the other party just take work by saying they never signed a contract or change the contract and say that the changed contract was the one we signed to? Like there’s no true effective way to verify these things. Or it’s just hard from an outsider perspective to understand how that works o.o

[summer roost]

So you mean people who apply to those contract roles already took the time to create their own company entity?
No - that's freelancing, not contract roles. Contract roles (at least in the US) are practically indistinguishable from permanent full-time work, except that instead of being "work for us until you quit or we fire you", they're "work for us for N months". The biggest difference between permanent FTE roles and contract roles will be in what benefits are offered - contract employees likely won't get health care benefits, 401k, they might not have paid time off, etc

[smoky quest]

neither would they get coaching or anything that could make it easy to confuse them with a FTE

[summer roost]

indeed

Also, don’t really know how contracts are enforced o.o can’t the other party just take work by saying they never signed a contract or change the contract and say that the changed contract was the one we signed to?
In practice, both parties keep a copy of the contract that was signed by every involved party. These days those contracts are likely to be delivered through email, so there's records in place there. Sure, you can forge the company's signature on a document, but if you're caught doing that, instead of a civil lawsuit for failing to uphold a contract, you're looking at a criminal prosecution for fraud.

[coral vine]

Oh I thought a contract role was freelancing

Maybe it’s because I was thinking about contract killers 🤣

[smoky quest]

It's the same thing, just different contexts

[coral vine]

It does seem easy for a single individual to make a fake company website, tell a compelling story about how it’s a start up with 5 other people,

Then have you sign the contract, then you do work for them, then they take your work and don’t pay you.

Then you’re left with a signed contract from a non existing company. How can we know the company is real? O.o

[delicate bane]

did someone say fastapi

[summer roost]

It does seem easy for a single individual to make a fake company website, tell a compelling story about how it’s a start up with 5 other people,

Then have you sign the contract, then you do work for them, then they take your work and don’t pay you.
Is it any easier than doing that for non-contract work? I'm not seeing how a contract of "you'll work for us for $X per hour for the next 6 months" makes it any easier to scam someone than "you'll work for us for $X per week until you quit or we fire you" does

[buoyant seal]

Too bad it is not flawless. Compatibility with Celery sucks due to unique snowflake async engine and Python immaturity to async

[coral vine]

That’s true. It’s just one feels safer because more people can know about it. While the other one feels like you are on your own if things go south.

Similar to buying brand products even though they all work the same. One has a reputation for being trusted while the other one is unheard of

[summer roost]

who is the "more people"? If someone is scamming you and pretending to be a multi-person company, isn't it just you and one other person involved, regardless of whether the contract is for hourly work at a particular rate for a particular term or for salaried work for an indefinite term?

[coral vine]

I won’t have to worry about getting scammed at a big company because I can contact people who work there to verify it’s authenticity. But for the small one, there’s no way to verify it’s real

[summer roost]

that's true, but that's totally independent of contract work vs permanent role.

you can do contract work for a big company without fear of getting scammed

the safety is coming from whether the company is reputable, not whether the role is a short-term contract.

[coral vine]

Right, I guess my only true concern is the reputation. So even if it’s a small company like an indie game studio that’s super reputable then that’s no worry too.

But during the job hunt, it’s like most of these companies are unheard of o.o so that’s why I generalized

[summer roost]

hm. large companies seem more likely to offer contract roles than small companies, from what I've seen.

which is why conflating the trustworthiness of the company with whether the role is contract or permanent threw me off.

[coral vine]

I thought it was the other way around o.o

Like if one day I get rich, I just want to contract work out for someone to build me a video game?

[vapid jay]

@distant cairn

[summer roost]

that mostly happens on sites specific to freelancing - that's not the type of job posting that you'd find on a normal job hunting site, or posted with normal job ads. Normal job ads for contract roles are overwhelmingly likely to be the time-limited sort of contract I've been talking about

(that may be different in other countries, but that's the case in the US, where I'm located and most familiar with)

[coral vine]

Ohhh I’m starting to get it now

There’s contract role

Then there’s contract role

Résumé and resume
Toe-may-toe
Toe-mah-toe
Grey and gray

[vapid jay]

Good dang

[summer roost]

I mean, you sign a contract either way. But positions advertised on regular job hunting sites as "contract" positions are the type I'm talking about: the contract that you sign says that you'll work for some length of time on whatever projects the employer wants you to work on.

the other type, where you sign a contract agreeing to deliver some product or project, is called "freelancing" and is advertised on entirely different sites (usually platforms designed to handle some of the legal overhead), or is done by starting your own consulting business and advertising or accepting referrals so that clients find you

[coral vine]

I see now. Previously I thought contract role on indeed was like getting work on fiver, upwork.

Now I understand that the indeed one is more position-based and abstract but tends to be bound by just length of time.

Meanwhile, the freelance one is the headache one where it’s easier to not be able to define when a job is complete

Thanks for the clarification.

[dreamy spade]

What do you guys think of companies using applicants’ GPA as one of the metrics to determine their employability?

[summer roost]

I think there's better metrics, though for someone who doesn't have any prior work experience, it's probably a good indicator of how well they're able to apply themselves to completing work they were assigned.

[spark cobalt]

Someone who was able to get their work in time and do good work will likely do better than someone that wasn't able to.

While of course it's not always true, out of high volume of candidates, the trend may resemble it

[smoky quest]

correlation vs causation

[dreamy spade]

Not just applying themselves to assigned work but memorization for exams too which is hard imo.

Exam performance makes up a lot for your GPA. Requires too much memorization which is why I don’t like when companies use GPA as a metric to determine an applicant’s employability.

[smoky quest]

Most schools don't solely rely on memorization for their grades though. That would be an outlier

[summer roost]

being able to remember information you've been exposed to and recall it later is an important part of a programmer's job

[dreamy spade]

I hear web developers search for information all the time while they are on the job.

[summer roost]

they do. They also need to remember a lot of stuff. Those aren't mutually exclusive

[dreamy spade]

I had some professors who were against closed-book exams for this very reason.

[smoky quest]

if they have to look up everything, there is something wrong.
So there is a degree of expectations

[dreamy spade]

Are there any jobs where you are strictly writing Python code? I mostly see jobs where the description says they are looking for someone to know how to code in Python, JavaScript, using React as my framework. HTML and CSS.

[granite moon]

Very few. You need to work with multiple tools.

[spark cobalt]

That doesn't distract from more fundamental knowledge and experience that gears much of what you code.

[coral vine]

Python leetcode freelance mentor

[summer roost]

Even with open book exams, you need to already know a fair amount about what you're looking up in order to find the answers that you need in time. I'd expect pretty much every developer to need to look something up every day, but if one is looking the same stuff up over and over, it'd be a very troubling sign.

[west badger]

Guyss.... There are some good uni in usa that costs like 10k per year after some aids aren't there?

[smoky quest]

In state tuition can be affordable

[summer roost]

it's not really easy to talk about what the price tag will be after applying financial aid, since the amount of financial aid received varies so much from one student to the next.

[west badger]

I am international haha

[smoky quest]

good luck!

[coral vine]

Memoirs of an Amnesiac Developer: A Programming Parody

[cyan valley]

for those who work professionally with Python, what is your day to day life at work look like? do your primary use Django at your job?

[shut lark]

i wanna get a job in google

My friends:"Cuz of money"
Me:"Cuz i like google plex phone"

[spark cobalt]

Pixel based 😎

[pallid grotto]

GIYS WHO HERE IS GOOD AT PYTHON CODING?

[hardy stratus]

Topic list for DSA interview :-

Pls help in outlining the list of topics from Python for a Data Structures and Algorithm interview. I am a fresher software developer aiming to get into MAANG companies.

[lyric cape]

Hi.I have a small question regarding my career. Can I call my self a software engineer if i do masters in computer science and business analytics after doing bachelors in B.tech csc ??

[quiet arch]

Strings, array, hashmap, set, etc all the ones on neetcode.io

@hardy stratus this is a better list

But some overkill imo

A lot of those won’t show up in maang interviews

[honest goblet]

@near ocean yes I have a cv. i just finished university

[near ocean]

So which part of the process for getting an internship are you struggling with? Are you getting calls back, interviews?

[honest goblet]

i just finished the cs50 course from harvard and I enjoyed it a lot. Now I guess i am looking at some personal projects to add to a github (i am trying to follow some YT videos)

[hardy stratus]

vow...this is great work for me. is it also possible for you to give the list of topics from Python(form language perspective, not from DSA)

[honest goblet]

there are very few opportunites this time of year and the ones i applied to did not call back

[fervent grove]

if u are interested in kaggle competitions im in the same state as u are 😄

[honest goblet]

o hi

[near ocean]

You could try anonymizing your cv and posting it here for review
Others can give better inputs probably

[honest goblet]

can i post a picture?

[quiet arch]

Uhhh idk just pick a project that interests u and learn as u go along

[honest goblet]

ill blank out my personal details on paint

[fervent grove]

pixel personal data beforehand

[hardy stratus]

I am quite new to software development. I know that DSA + language is a strong pillar to get in a product company. you have given outline of DSA stuff. Now which topics to focus in Python...so that I stay focused on the interview...

[quiet arch]

It’s impossible to learn all the libraries if that’s what u mean

Just do neetcode.io the blind 75 that’s all the “topics” u need to know @hardy stratus

[fervent grove]

funny ive been to bristol 🗿

[spark cobalt]

I recommend going through Grokking and then going through Elements of the Programming Interview.

[hardy stratus]

I am not asking for any libraries at all....its only about the topics to learn in Python....or I should learn it entirely.........if I don't make sense pls ignore

[spark cobalt]

This is a very non traditional resume format. Generally it's easier for a receiving end to understand you better by separating your education, then skills, then projects that demonstrate these skills.

[fervent grove]

its much text for a CV in my opinion ur experience could be in a cover letter rather then the CV

[hardy stratus]

this should be a worthy suggestion

[fervent grove]

no

just general datasets or competitions but not to win, got not 20h/week for a kaggle comp 😄, always nice to see others approach / perspective on same dataset @modern ore

[honest goblet]

should i remove that bottom bit haha

[honest goblet]

so an education and skills section?

[spark cobalt]

That is the standard way to do it yes.

[fervent grove]

i would recommend something like this with clear sections

[honest goblet]

do i have to put my face?

[fervent grove]

u dont

[honest goblet]

is this a template or yours?

[fervent grove]

but compare urs with the template one and u will find the least to be more readable

template im a chemist

[vapid jay]

Have a seperate header for your tech-stack is a good idea

[honest goblet]

considering i have no experience my skills and education should be the main focus right?>

[fervent grove]

general rule is to have a well structured CV with less text and a good written cover letter with more detailed explanation

[honest goblet]

what do you mean

[fervent grove]

u could state kaggle comps and link a github

[honest goblet]

there is not much on my github

[vapid jay]

The same as you have a sector of education and work experience on your resume, make one for your IT skills so a recruiter doesn't have to go through your projects to know what you worked with and what not

[honest goblet]

i want to do lots of projects like data analysis in jupyter notebook and put it there

[fervent grove]

quality >>> quantity (dont fork)

[honest goblet]

fork?

[fervent grove]

take code from someone else on kaggle and put it into ur github just to get projects

[honest goblet]

oh no no thats not good

ok i will try changing my resume now

oh what do you guys think about those training academies that do like 12 week coding courses and send you with a company to do work?

[vapid jay]

Could be a good start of your career but you need to find a good one

[fervent grove]

avoid at all costs, mostly offer 35k a year and argue to be worth 60k cause they offer u with courses etc., when u ask what courses they dont answer 🗿

[honest goblet]

thats what im thinking. i was messaged by a lady at

"I am reaching out from Albany Beck, a Management Consultancy, where we partner with clients within the Financial Services sector, such as HSBC, JP Morgan and Deutsche Bank."

for a graduate software engineering academy i got to the interview stage for this

[spark cobalt]

@honest goblet https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs this is one of the standard templates

[honest goblet]

the 35k/yr work is actually worth 60k? is that what youre saying?

[spark cobalt]

You should avoid those. A normal company will pretty much always be better.

[fervent grove]

they argue like this, 35k income and imaginary 25k for their courses

[spark cobalt]

Where are you location-wise? 35k is straight extortion in the US.

[vapid jay]

It really depends on your own situation

[honest goblet]

my one looks similar,

[honest goblet]

they want me to pay them back?

[spark cobalt]

I am also referring to the actual contents as well

[fervent grove]

no they keep 25k from ur 60k

[honest goblet]

london

[spark cobalt]

This is a scam. Avoid these. Training bonds are a way, but they're generally never in favor of you..

[honest goblet]

cant i leave eventually and use them for experience?

[fervent grove]

nooooooo avoid at all cost ^2 they want u to compensate them then hahahaha

[spark cobalt]

Many have contract restrictions saying you have to pay them money if you leave within a certain time (like pay back the training fees)

[honest goblet]

wtf

[fervent grove]

thats why u avoid those "companys"

[honest goblet]

ok tell you what. ill interview anyway cuz idk how to do interviews but ill keep looking

[spark cobalt]

Good plan

[vapid jay]

But this is the case with a lot of companies

[honest goblet]

cuz the lady did say i could leave if i get a placement at a company

[fervent grove]

be prepared that ull have to tell them "NO" cause they prob. will love u and want u to join their program

[honest goblet]

but sounds too good to be true

[spark cobalt]

Consultant companies sure. But this is almost never the case for a normal company.

[spark cobalt]

These companies feed off of desperate individuals with the idea of a guaranteed job. Almost all never get even close.

[spark cobalt]

There is a difference between company sponsoring higher education and a training bond btw. We are only discussing the latter.

[vapid jay]

Ah ok

[fervent grove]

mosquitoes they suck the blood and leave diseases

[vapid jay]

Maybe one more advice on this topic, just look for reviews online, google, glassdoor, etc..

[fervent grove]

sad that such agency's are profitable

[honest goblet]

its like they train for a while and send me to a bank to work for them and she said if i wanted to i can just leave this company and join the bank as a software dev

[vapid jay]

Or message a current or former employee via LinkedIn and get their opionion

[honest goblet]

guys hahahah shall i try to butcher the interview and see if they accpet

[spark cobalt]

Typically the model is they make you go through their training program, typically it's taught by kids in a CS program with the program in general being very low quality, then they advertise that you get guaranteed a job, but in reality it's a matchmaking phase that never guarantees you anything. And then there's more financial restrictions when you do get a job and they make you sign something to give them some sort of pay cut along the lines.

[fervent grove]

they gonna take u no matter what 😄

[spark cobalt]

They'll take what their customers want. A lot of these expect CS degrees.

I've interviewed at a couple of these and never got accepted just due to lack of credentials

[fervent grove]

they advertise u tothe company as super duper IT specialist with 200+years experience

[honest goblet]

how is this legal

[fervent grove]

u sign it and accept it

[spark cobalt]

^

It starts all good and dandy, as the interviews go on more and more of the ugly truths start being exposed and they get aggressive.

You signed it, it's all legal.

[fervent grove]

love it how @spark cobalt got same experience as i did

[spark cobalt]

They're all the same lol, I'm glad that I was able to get offers directly from companies at the end of the day

[fervent grove]

+1

[lyric cape]

Hi.I have a small question. Can I call my self a software engineer if i do masters in computer science and business analytics after doing bachelors in B.tech csc ??

[spark cobalt]

Generally you're whatever title your company gave you.

[vapid jay]

I've seen people that made one webpage 10 years back call themselves software engineer

[lyric cape]

oh

[honest goblet]

Wait let me pull up a similar contravt

[spark cobalt]

Huge black and white difference from being more of a hobbyist than being someone with actual experience building products at a company

[lyric cape]

lol

[spark cobalt]

Though that isn't to distract hobbyist's capabilities. Many are more capable than I am

[lyric cape]

but in the masters course whuch i menationed , will i go deep into cs??

[spark cobalt]

CS is broad. Deep into what specifically?

It's the general consensus that if you're not delving into theoretically complicated roles, a BS is more than enough.

[honest goblet]

Digitalfutures

[lyric cape]

like im also doing business anaytics with cs..thats the course, will i learn more about programmimg languages ??

[spark cobalt]

Read the course description.

[lyric cape]

the course had no description :((

[honest goblet]

How long did it take

[spark cobalt]

Then there's really no way we would know either.

[lyric cape]

oh okay, have you ever heard about the course??

[spark cobalt]

4 months for me.

[lyric cape]

thanks for the clarification :))

[honest goblet]

I need to start applying again

[spark cobalt]

Oh fuck I have a early morning meeting. I gotta sleep gn

[honest goblet]

Gn

[near ocean]

Is this deja vu? You've posted this before and its against the rules

Next time it'll be a mods ping, read the rules

[true harness]

I think this is somewhat outdated. the impression I get from most hiring managers is that cover letters are fairly useless

[fervent grove]

why do they state they want em then?

[true harness]

if they wanted them, they'd require them. most don't

[fervent grove]

mhhh on all of my applications they wanted em, maybe differs from country to country

[true harness]

that's probably true. in the US, applications have a field to upload a cover letter, but most do not require it

[fervent grove]

requirements =/= wanting em, my personal feedback was they do like to read those when an applicant is of interest for em

[true harness]

feedback from companies?

[fervent grove]

from the hiring person yes (the one who inserted the job)

[true harness]

what country?

[fervent grove]

ger

[true harness]

well, it seems they're from the UK, so neither of us are relevant, lol

[fervent grove]

in general the CV is of most importance everything thing ontop (overboard internship etc. ) is cherry on top

i do not know if i should include my aboard internship back in 2013 into my collage CV tbh 😄

[true harness]

aren't CVs supposed to include basically everything?

[fervent grove]

nah only contents of interest and i doubt company wants to know what i did as an apprentice when they hire a graduate

cause the do not like 30+ pages as a resume, which should only give a short and well structured information about the person who applies and everything else can be discussed in the personal interview

[true harness]

yeah. typically for US, resume is the boiled down one. usually one page, rarely 2. CV has basically everything

[fervent grove]

well time to include my aboard internship then 🗿

[honest goblet]

are you in the uk

[near ocean]

Cover letter requirements differ from industry to industry too

[vapid jay]

As a recruiter within IT, I agree. Nobody is going to take the time to read 30+ pages. We scan the most crucial information required for a position and then invite you for a call to discuss softskills and projects you did

[true harness]

no

[near ocean]

I've never had a recruiter ask me about my projects

[true harness]

me neither. that's left for the next interview, if at all

[honest goblet]

any advice for someone with a degree in physics wanting to get into this industry?

[vapid jay]

Agency or corporate recruiter?

[fervent grove]

cause they got no clue what is, thats for expert call

[near ocean]

Either, only devs have so far

[vapid jay]

Good to know

[near ocean]

Do you know what kind of software dev you want to go into?

In your physics degree did you use anything related? Matlab, py, julia, etc

[honest goblet]

a lot of python

Arduino (or is it called embedded C?) idk and ive done lots of excel and data analysis.... some simulation physics too

[near ocean]

A stem degree definitely isnt an issue, in fact most people i work with dont have CS degrees but other kinds of stem stuff, im in the minority in my team
You should try to present your computational work as clearly as possible

[honest goblet]

i could also invest time until september working on projects?

cuz then i will have something to show instead of "my technical ability" which every other 100000 graduate has

[near ocean]

Do you have any school work on github you could fix up and add to CV?

[true harness]

that's not a bad idea. remember your resume is about demonstrated skills

[honest goblet]

no because they wouldnt let us move it out of the uni computers/hardrives ( i tried doing it without permission anyway lol)

i just feel bad because im not earning any money rn so i cant like do anything?

[near ocean]

Thats very sad, we basically werent allowed to keep stuff on uni pcs

[true harness]

oof. my uni gives us a onedrive and a development server. freely transfer to and from to submit things

[honest goblet]

😦

i had a lot of data analysis and simulation scripts on it as well. i think i could probably make it again but idk

[fervent grove]

thats sounds shitty af, i mean in a company ok but its "school" so u should be able to take YOUR work home with u

[honest goblet]

eh whatever i need to focus on what i should do now to get these jobs

[dreamy spade]

Email I got.

“We want to thank you for your interest in a position at [Company]. After careful consideration, we will not be moving your application forward in the process. Please know that competition for the position was very strong, and we had to make difficult choices among an exceptional group of candidates.”

This industry is extremely competitive. 😮‍💨

Never in my life I had to deal with competition to such an intensifying degree. Not even in sports. This is more competitive than sports.

[vapid jay]

Tbh, this is just an easy way to reject a candidate.

[honest goblet]

life is shit ngl, you apply to 10000 companies all say no but apparently you have to keep your head up. then slave away for many years jerking off managers for a penny increase in wages just so you can afford to live 👍 anyone wanna build a cabin in the moutains with me?

[near ocean]

Can't, I like technology too much

[honest goblet]

build internet there for remote work ez pz

[dreamy spade]

Are you employed in tech?

[honest goblet]

i just finished uni

[dreamy spade]

So no?

[honest goblet]

no 😦

[true harness]

is this the first one you've gotten?

[dreamy spade]

I’m struggling to find work

[dreamy spade]

Yeah I do.

Is tech not competitive though?

[near ocean]

Stop looking at numbers and psyching yourself out
Just apply

[true harness]

no one said it wasn't. if you're qualified, numbers don't matter

[near ocean]

You dont even know if the numbers are real

[honest goblet]

like yeah 90% of them will get instantly rejected cuz theyre not qualified enough

[dreamy spade]

It’s very disheartening because I’m going to have to go back to working in warehouses. I never foresaw this coming; working in a warehouse again was not something I wanted to go back to doing. The point of getting into tech was to change my life and never work in a warehouse again. This really sucks.

I never anticipated that getting a job in tech would be so hard after graduation.

[true harness]

did you use your university's career services?

[dreamy spade]

Yeah I actually attended the job fair last week. Applied for several companies there.

[near ocean]

My experience might be irrelevant cause i was searching mid covid, but it took me 9 months to find my first job after graduation

[dreamy spade]

There’s competition at the job fair as well.

[true harness]

right, but have you gotten your resume reviewed, etc?

[dreamy spade]

Yes

[true harness]

no change in interviews? then you need to improve your resume more. how many applications have you sent?

[dreamy spade]

Way too many. About a thousand since April 2022.

[vapid jay]

How many interviews did you have?

[dreamy spade]

And +1 for a non tech position

[near ocean]

Have you tried posting your cv here

[dreamy spade]

I also have an opportunity to write aptitude tests for Crossover.

[vapid jay]

That's very low considering the amount of applications

[near ocean]

Maybe theres something off about it

[dreamy spade]

Yeah I posted my CV here recently.

[true harness]

but how many were for positions that you weren't immediately disqualified for? e.g., internships that were looking for current students

[dreamy spade]

None

[true harness]

if you say so. either way, it still points to an issue with your resume

[dreamy spade]

I thought you were talking about the interviews. Yes I have been rejected for internships just from my resume.

[vapid jay]

Did you ask for feedback when you got rejected? And if you got it, what was it?

[dreamy spade]

Yeah I did for one company.

[true harness]

well if you got an interview you weren't immediately rejected

[vapid jay]

What was the feedback

[near ocean]

Is it this?
#career-advice message
Did you get any feedback on it?

[true harness]

the feedback is right there 😔. you were there

[dreamy spade]

Feedback.

“Hope you're doing well! My apologies for the delay in getting back to you here. Thank you for reaching out & congratulations on graduating recently - that's very exciting!

I understand  [Colleague] on my team has been in touch with you back in October when you interviewed with us for the Software Developer Intern position. Unfortunately, at that time we didn't move forward as the role was specific to back-end development, and your interest/strong suit was within front-end. Also, we were looking for more examples and stronger responses when prompted for behavioural based questions - we would've loved to see you expand more on your experience/skill set during the pre screening interview. At the time, it also ultimately came down to the broader candidate pool of applicants we received for that position & those with more relevant work experience/former internships or co-ops that stood out to the hiring team. “

[near ocean]

Smh calling me old then being surprised i forget things

[true harness]

wow that's actually pretty in depth feedback. good for that company. unfortunately it's not relevant until you actually get interviews, though it might be a sign you want to expand your skill set

[buoyant seal]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/26tOZ42Mg6pbTUPHW/giphy.gif
I got promoted, woohooo.

(New rank: Middle+ dev (we have Middle and Middle+ ranks from middle range) 🙂 +they told me i am few steps away from getting Senior rank eventually. Probably in a year going to get it)

[dreamy spade]

Feedback from another company.

“Thank you for reaching out!

I checked your profile and the system and you were rejected for the Co-Op/Intern role as you are no longer a student and you graduated too long ago to be considered an Intern.

Best of luck with any full-time roles that you might apply to.

Thank you very much, “

[true harness]

yeah that's pretty reasonable. don't apply to jobs if you don't meet their bare minimum requirements, it's just a waste of time for everyone

[vapid jay]

Both are reasonable pieces of feedback

[dreamy spade]

But I need internship experience because I have no tech work experience.

[vapid jay]

"we were looking for more examples and stronger responses when prompted for behavioural based questions" Did you have an interview with these folks? It could also be that you need to "sell" yourself more.

[dreamy spade]

I’m possibly getting beat out for full-time positions by applicants who do have internship experience

[true harness]

you really don't. you just need to improve your resume in other ways

[true harness]

you probably are. but you aren't really going to get internships anymore, unless you go back to school. I would highly recommend against that

[dreamy spade]

Yes I did. They asked me behavioural questions and I didn’t know how to answer them very well.

[true harness]

you might want to use your university and see if they can do mock interviews with you

[dreamy spade]

I did that

[true harness]

why couldn't you answer the behavioral questions well, then?

[dreamy spade]

I booked an appointment with them after the fact. Not before.

[true harness]

oh. well, then it's all back to your resume

[dreamy spade]

Behavioural questions are harder than technical questions.

[vapid jay]

What kind of questions were these?

[true harness]

I agree. I'm really bad at behavioral questions

[true harness]

e.g., name a time when you had to make a tough decision. how did you go about it?

questions that test your soft skills

[dreamy spade]

Asking me about how I dealt with a stressful situation and how I overcame it.

[near ocean]

What kind of fruit do you most identify as and why?

[true harness]

uh. you know I've never thought of that one

[near ocean]

Wow, cant think on your feet or adapt to a strange situation, noted 📝

[true harness]

an apple, because there are many variants and I'm highly adaptable to different technologies

[dreamy spade]

I would be so angry if that was the reason why the company didn’t proceed with my application.

[near ocean]

It wouldnt be but also its a silly question, give a quick silly answer, no biggie

[true harness]

should have been more adaptive /j

[lofty perch]

Hey, do you have recommendations for sites with jobs besides LinkedIn?

[near ocean]

Indeed, totaljobs(?), Reed

[lofty perch]

You already had positive feedback from those sites?

I'm struggling to get my first international remote job

[near ocean]

From indeed, yes haven't used others

[true harness]

I've primarily used indeed and linkedin

[near ocean]

Also glassdoor has job ads

[lofty perch]

Nice, thank you

[true harness]

they're mostly the same jobs from what I've seen, though

[near ocean]

Yea but interface is different, some of them suck to look at

[sleek egret]

yar

[delicate bane]

international jobs i heard can be difficult to get. especially as your first job. why dont you try for something local first

[lofty perch]

I'm already working locally. I've 7 years already working with Python, but now I'm aiming to get a remote job

[sleek egret]

@vapid jay is correct, it's not just a matter of a company being wiling to hire foreigners. there are legal and compliance issues that must be taken care of first. which costs the company extra money.

[vapid jay]

Wrong Rex haha 👌

[sleek egret]

sorry, @delicate bane

anyway, it's why so much "foreign jobs" are actually done through agencies

[leaden jasper]

@calm pasture This is not the correct channel, check out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[low scaffold]

who is a web dev here

[dreamy spade]

What is an Ecommerce payment?

“An e-commerce payment system facilitates the acceptance of electronic payment for offline transfer, also known as a subcomponent of electronic data interchange, e-commerce payment systems have become increasingly popular due to the widespread”

Oh I see so a developer implements a system like this on an app

[unborn bridge]

Secure credit card transactions

[coral vine]

Omg!! I just interviewed and it was crazy because so many things I practiced were on the test!

[spark cobalt]

[tough charm]

if i get a bachelors in data science will i narrow my opportunities?

[true harness]

it can only widen them. unless you mean compared to CS

[coral vine]

But it sucked because they said they will email me the interview after my reply . So I replied. Then wandered around the house. Came back 10m later and saw the email that said “you better send back your replies within 90m” and so I scrambled

[true harness]

90 minutes is ridiculous. unless it's months

[true harness]

😤

[hearty island]

wow so oracle finally rejected me

i had to call + email to finally find out what the hell happened, but i’m not shocked

[coral vine]

Holy crap I think I might get hired ! They said they’ll get back to me in 2hrs. And they sent my answers to the board

[true harness]

tf? that's ridiculously fast

[true harness]

I remember you talk about that months ago lol

[dreamy shadow]

[true harness]

that seems a little low

[peak torrent]

fucking pretty low

[true harness]

don't count your chickens before they hatch

[buoyant seal]

Don't ask to ask, just ask your question (see dontasktoask.com for me details)

[peak torrent]

a server make more in florida lol. Well, it says remote I guess for someone outside of U.S is decent

[coral vine]

I put a pay range for my reply but

They are asking again how much I want hourly ? O.o

[near ocean]

US(remote) probably means you gotta be in country

[peak torrent]

ass salary tbh or junior position ?

[near ocean]

ass salary (respectfully)

[buoyant seal]

It can be clarified if remote across the world, or remote US only
If international, then ok I guess

[true harness]

even junior positions pay more than that

[hearty island]

ooh

[dreamy shadow]

[spark cobalt]

I've seen lower in middle-of-nowhere states

[hearty island]

a company i cold emailed about project management looked me up on LinkedIn, could be something

[near ocean]

Come on, i make that as a webdev across the pond in the worst tech market imaginable 💀

[peak torrent]

wow

[spark cobalt]

They're probably trying to feed off of desperate new grads that just happen to be local

[coral vine]

How am I sposed to answer how much I want to be considered for the job hourly? I gave a pay range on the quiz but they emailed me asking this question

Didn’t I already answer? O.o

[true harness]

if you have a salary, convert it. if you have an hourly, say it. or if you don't want to, don't

[coral vine]

I did do that. The test asked for hourly and the email asked for hourly,

Won’t it be rude if I repeat my response from the test ? o.o

[true harness]

well if they're asking for it again, you might as well just say it again

[digital fjord]

Yeah, if you get asked for the same thing multiple times, the most efficient thing to do is to just provide the same thing again. I would recommend against saying something different to avoid miscommunication internally in the company.

[true harness]

don't say anything that might place blame on someone

[coral vine]

It says I’ll have a virtual meeting from hr department after I complete my newly recruited employee documentation

Then it spoke about the details of the training and how it works remotely.

So that’s why I thought I got the job xD

But it says on the top that the team will review and that the hiring board will make the decision …

[true harness]

huh. they're probably just telling you about the process for your info. still wouldn't count on it

[coral vine]

There were 16 open ended questions! Dx

A lot of them were about design patterns, what I contributed, what I’d change about a known process, how I debugged my most difficult bug, what project management tools, how I speak technical to non tech stakeholder, obstacles, how I collaborate with team to solve difficult issue, which aspect of the company team/product I am interested in, how my education translates into me being able to do this job, etc

And the whole time , everyone in the house was all loud, a friend called in between, and someone knocked on my door

And they just gave me a pdf! And I had to scramble for google docs but I forgot how to find it xD

[unborn bridge]

After changing my resume based on suggestions here, I'm starting to see activity, and actually getting responses. Hurray!

[true harness]

interviews?

[unborn bridge]

Yeah, linkedin saying my profile is getting views, and I got an e-mail asking for a 'meet and greet meeting' 24 hours from now

[coral vine]

The crazy thing is almost everything they asked, I didn’t learn from school o.o

[unborn bridge]

I have to bug some friends to get me setup for remote work, I'm completely unprepared for video conferencing

[hearty island]

ok i’m gonna try not to be excited, but i applied for a project management assistant intern position for oracle and my recruiter actually reached out to the recruiter of the role for me. they said they’ll call back if there’s a match

[coral vine]

It’s okay we can be excited together

Also I actually liked this third interview best because the other 2 would ask about technology-specific questions. This one just asked about teamwork, design patterns, conflict/project management

[hearty island]

nah i refuse to be excited about oracle

they’ve disappointed me too many times now

[delicate bane]

congrats dude. best of luck on your interviews

[hearty island]

the good news is that centene accepted me

the bad news is that means i have to leave my current internship which gave me a full time offer already after i graduate

[unborn bridge]

The perils of having choices

[hearty island]

so like what the hell do i do

[near ocean]

What is centene

[hearty island]

my idea was to have a talk with the president of the company and be like hey can i leave for a couple months and come back

centene is a health insurance company that offers things like medicaid or medicare

[coral vine]

Maybe I won’t get the job because it says qualified candidates will have 8 years of experience. O.o

But we will see in 2 hours. I feel like I answered the questions well even though I scrambled

[hearty island]

the internship is $23 an hour from may 22nd to august 11th

[pastel thunder]

applied: 93
4 tests given
1 interview call.

[hearty island]

idk what i should do

[near ocean]

What's the centene offer

[hearty island]

centene is what i mentioned above

[near ocean]

Oh, well whats your current internship like then

[hearty island]

current internship is $20 an hour and it doesn’t give me a lot to do

that’s why i was looking for a summer internship bc i was so bored

[delicate bane]

lol idk about this fam

but up to you bud. do you really want to come back to this company though

[hearty island]

well it’s my first full time offer

what happens if i shit the bed at centene and then i have no full time offer

my guess is they say no if you wanna go, just go

[nova coyote]

how to get first internship as a python developer?

and how much time it takes as a beginner?

[true harness]

be in university. apply

[nova coyote]

and what about if you are in not good college?

[near ocean]

Keep grades up, make CV, apply
Not everyone is in MIT

[storm breach]

What to do if you dont have a good cgpa. I have a 2.96 rn

[unborn bridge]

Be confident and keep learning. Most companies I apply for don't ask for a transcript from college or grades.

[storm breach]

Should i round it off as a 3 while applying

[delicate bane]

hmm that would be my guess too

[true harness]

yeah that's fine

[hearty island]

well shit

then i have a serious decision to make

[coral vine]

1 more hour till I’ll know !

What should you do if a company gives you a job offer and says you have 48 hours to accept

But you still have some pending interviews for other companies? o.o

Also, what if you interview more at other companies right after you just accepted a job offer? And you end up getting a better offer a week in for the new company.

[smoky quest]

• you can either make a decision within 48h, you can decline it, or you can ask them to extend the deadline as you want to wrap up the other interviews and make sure you have no regret
• Anything is fair as long as it's not signed. But if you accept and sign an offer, that would be considered a dick move and burning bridges if you renege on it

[coral vine]

Isn’t it risky asking for a deadline extension because they might just give the job to another candidate who accepted sooner?

I think I screwed myself over with my 2nd interview since I extended the deadline to take the interview from nervousness because they never sent me anything back after I finally completed my one way video interview

[smoky quest]

There is always a risk in all things

[delicate bane]

i mean do you really think you cant get a new grad position after graduating?

you probably could esp with internships on your resume

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't overthink with regards to your second paragraph

[coral vine]

I’m more interested in the 2nd company because that one would pay for school but if this company does a timed job offer accept thing then I wouldn’t want to risk losing that too.

Also pending interview for some other company later in the week Dx

It’s crazy that right after school, you’re expected to suddenly act like a professional who gets paid and knows how to collaborate and all o.o

[hearty island]

idk

[smoky quest]

that's what school prepares you for 😉

Things you can do:

• Tell your first company that you would appreciate if they could extend the deadline as, while you are very much interested with them, you want to wrap up the other interviews and make sure you have no regret
• Tell the second company you expect an offer and would appreciate if they could accelerate the process on their end

Knowing you already have an offer will also have an impact as it validates you are good and valuable and worth going faster

[true harness]

fast food jobs help a lot with that, ngl

[coral vine]

Only if you take leadership, speech, debate in school. Didn’t really do that but

I have experience arguing w mom xD

I’m all passive. It’s hard learning to be more assertive o.o

[smoky quest]

that's the thing. There is no mom behind you to speak to the teacher.
No one will advocate for you. If you don't speak up, people will push you towards what makes their life easier. So be your own advocate and don't count on others to do what's best for yourself

[coral vine]

Shouldnt “no mom” be in bold too?

[smoky quest]

if you want to

[unborn bridge]

I learned the hard way how to stand up for myself. I never felt I had to in my tech jobs (ignorance), but working a blue collar job with a pack of self-described "bad bitches" (their literal words) and the ensuing horrors of their antics and lies taught me the need to be there for myself because no one else would.

[delicate bane]

i think you could but its just up to you how much risk you are willing to tolerate

[coral vine]

Honestly I was really aggressive back then but last year I took social courses because I want to enter the higher education field of jobs and now I’m all passive o.o

It’s challenging striking a balance

[unborn bridge]

I think of it like a game of chess. Regardless of how I feel, there's a best move to be made, and if I try I know I can find something better than what my brain is urging me to do.

[coral vine]

So in the end you always have to take a risk

And if you never take a risk then over a long period of time you lose out the most :/

[elfin scarab]

So I just went to a company and asked if they want to hire django web developers

they develop their sites in laravel and php

[true harness]

you just... walked into their office?

[elfin scarab]

yeah, I wanted to see how they operate

the guy said to me, "as an advice leave python and go to professional languages"

I didn't know how to respond tbh as he's older than me, but he meant it like laravel or php is way better to develop websites than in django?

Is that true or what? like should I ditch django and head to php because there is more demand?

same tbh

[true harness]

how'd you even get to talk to a technical person lol. small company?

[elfin scarab]

Yeah, a 3 floors tall kinda company

Not so small, medium I'd say but he was so kind the guy I talked to

He didn't underestimate any of the stuff I offered he just gave that look of "you just wasted a ton of your time" lmao

[true harness]

well yeah. it's kind of an outdated way to get a job

[elfin scarab]

It Is, I guess imma make a linkedin or an instagram and show my work there

[true harness]

make a github

[elfin scarab]

I have one, I have like 4 repos and 2 private ones

Its mostly tutorials, I want to help contribute with the all the public repos out there but idk how to get involved lol

[coral vine]

Was it the look of cringe?

[elfin scarab]

I put it in my profile rn, if u want to check it

[elfin scarab]

Nah, its like he meant I just wasted my time learning useless stuff lmao

[true harness]

the normal way is to look on their website or job sites and apply with a resume

[elfin scarab]

What do you think I should learn after Django, should I keep building on it or having multiple frameworks at once is even better?

[coral vine]

That’s the crazy thing about programming. Everyone always says learn something else. Then you just end up wasting so much time touching the surface of 50+ technologies Dx

But one day you realize you gotta stick to one o,o

[peak halo]

having a superficial understanding of two frameworks isn't useful. and there isn't really a point at which you definitively "know" Django.

[elfin scarab]

It's literally what's stopping me from working, the amount of stuff I learned in those past 4 years lmao

[smoky quest]

Avoiding risks not only prevent some losses, but also prevents some gains. There cannot be something safe with high reward

[elfin scarab]

Django is huge, but I meant like I reached the level I know how to search for the "right solution"

[coral vine]

It’s like being at a buffet and choosing to eat everything because it all tastes good

But even though it’s all good, it’s not the right thing to do Dx

[smoky quest]

It's better to pick one language and one framework and demonstrate your skills than pick multiple frameworks and demonstrate zero skills

[coral vine]

It recently clicked with me what my friend meant a few months ago when he said “you have to specialize” Dx

[elfin scarab]

Thanks for all the amazing advices guys

Btw

I'm also preparing for an ejpt exam, its not like I'm moving fields but its a gift from a friend of mine, can I use the cert with the web dev knowledge together

or they can't be fitted? like in one job?

[true harness]

I've no idea what ejpt is

[elfin scarab]

Its a pentesting certification

[coral vine]

Holy crap I GOT HIRED

[elfin scarab]

seriously?

[coral vine]

They chose to pay me halfway from the hourly wage range I chose

[true harness]

that's good though right?

[elfin scarab]

That is better than no wage but congrats lmao

[true harness]

absolute legend 🎉🎉. very fast process though lol

[coral vine]

I think it’s good because I thought they would pick to pay me the lowest possible

Then I’d work there begrudgingly

[true harness]

that's why your lower bound should be about the median of what you want

[elfin scarab]

Holy thats smart

[true harness]

just saying. since I reviewed your resume, they basically hired me. expect an invoice. @coral vine ||/j||

[coral vine]

They basically hired all of you guys because

I used all your collective knowledge and channeled it into one

And then they were like wow

This is like the smartest shit we ever read

I’m just surprised that how I got the job was from inside of my bed using a laptop while everybody around me was being all loud and crazy. And I didn’t even brush my teeth yet at the time

[true harness]

you were being interviewed in bed? hopefully not a video interview 😬

[coral vine]

It was written interview

They said they’ll give me more benefits over time n some money for office tech. But it’s a company that’s more product based I think. I guess that’s why I don’t have to do tech interview

For transportation/fuel retail business so I think it updates gas station signs and freeway leds or something.

[true harness]

interesting. how were your technical skills assessed then?

[coral vine]

I think they checked my GitHub and saw the open source work. Plus I had to write about things I built

[sleek egret]

if they bother to check such things, that means they were seriously evaluating you

[coral vine]

They said they did a “serious evaluation” in the email

[sleek egret]

even if they say no, that's A Good Thing™️

[sleek egret]

see? and that proves I can read minds! 😵‍💫

[coral vine]

Also for contributing open source for pandas, one of the core devs was kind enough to give several amazing compliments which I think really helped out

If they even looked

For the pull request code review stuff

I’m surprised they gave me the job because they said you need 8 years of experience and when I answered for “tell me about yourself” , I said I’m a recent grad from city college lol

Or maybe it’s because i wrote “at the end of the day, we are all human” for a portion of one of the questions xD

[pastel thunder]

somehow i found out github of my tomm's interviewer, lmao, i now know what he know

its a small startup so he probably is the only one who could take my interview.

[coral vine]

It’s more than twice the money I’ve ever made at any job! But I somehow have to figure how to simmer down and complete the other interviews

I’m kind of Sus though. I better not be a lone dev at the company o.o and what if I don’t like the people o.o

I wonder if I can say something like… I have 2 other pending interviews which I’ll cancel if you pay me more ?

[sleek egret]

they're taking a risk on you. now it's up to you to prove to them that they made the right decision.

[smoky quest]

That's a small mindset. I wouldn't recommend it

[tough charm]

yeah i meant compared to cs but i dont really know where data science can lead me

[sleek egret]

it can lead you to managing other data scientists

then to executive positions where you provide quantitative rational for strategic business decisions

or possibly to living under a bridge after you get replaced by an AI

[true harness]

yeah but all the things you said so far could have been cheated. if it's just written, what if you got a person to do it for you

[coral vine]

I think my answers sounded really unique. I didn’t say anything the way others say it

[sleek egret]

but that would be unethical!

[true harness]

well sure, but if another person did it for you, their answers would also be unique. I'm not saying you did this, but I would probably be worried about the quality of my coworkers

[coral vine]

That’s true. Plus I think it’s product based so doesn’t have emphasis on the engineering aspect as much. But I just realized it pays more than the other 2 companies so I’m thinking I may just accept this offer.

There’s probably something that sucks really bad at the company since the process was so quick but I’ll be able to pay to finish school so I may just suck it up for that

[sleek egret]

or maybe the quick process is evidence of a company that makes decisions quickly and is not mired in silly bureacracy