career-advice

[buoyant seal]

no, they are awesome :b Golang document generation is so bad that i would prefer using python documentation generators for golang projects
(so in other langs it is worse)

[sleek egret]

lol, golang must be hellish then

come on, is it really that bad?

I like perl's perldoc system myself

[buoyant seal]

Golang documentation is automatically locked to autodoc generated for whole code only :/ So, scrapped docs for all classes/func/modules, and have fun documenting and navigating over it after that, and it will always reflect your code modules structure and class/function order.
Everyone documents in this way :/
Kind of facilitates very careful code structure at all levels though
Opinionated documentation for opinionated language 😅

So i just used python mkdocs to generate user oriented documentation to my discord bot instead 🙂 with Github Actions auto deploy to github pages.

[stuck turret]

Guys you have been more than helpful, again, not all heroes wear capes, thank you for your time and it is much appreciated. I have a date with some books and some certifications now xD again thank you for the awesome guidance!

[jade blaze]

Think nice employed thoughts for me at 2pm EST today. Got laid-off last month. Interviewing today for a data engineer role with a renewables energy company. Dream job potential. Studying up on PySpark, EMR and ETL patterns, and all the AWS silly service acronyms (which I've used hundreds of times but remembering which order all the letters go) gives me the screaming heebie-jeebies.

[unborn bridge]

not how git is meant to be used?

[true harness]

you don't make a copy and track both copies. you have one version, and git tracks its history

[unborn bridge]

ahh alright. the history of these pdfs never crossed my mind

also, did any of you go to bed? had to read a book to catch up this morning

[coral vine]

Ah, interesting. And cool story! I have ideas for a better answer now.

But I’m wondering which is a better story of the two?

A) The school group project story that I shared yesterday which demonstrates my ability to think creatively and collaborate with others (more flexible)

B) Story that I worked remotely on a big open source project and designed, implemented and tested a technical tooling that improves project management by reducing CI breakages (pretty independent but more impact)

What’s more important? Time saved or collaboration skills? I’m thinking option A because they care more for personality?

[near ocean]

I would prefer collaboration skills and communication tbh

[coral vine]

Ya I was thinking that collaboration skill ends up being more time saved in the long run. Instead of a one off thing

[upbeat swift]

Hi guys quick question. I am aiming to have a career path in coding. I have some projects in github 2-3 years old. Not profesional project. Should I keep them or delete them. They are pretty basic projects like using random library in py and having a uı for user use. Or vigenere cypher in c#. Shoudl I delete them or keep them ?

[true harness]

if they're all you have, you might as well keep them. something is better than nothing. though you should get to making recent, actual projects right away

[upbeat swift]

I usually didint put my projects in github. I am developing some big (for me at least) projects like alternative data storage and exploiting online servicess and stuff. and I am aiming to make 4-5 of these project every year

[buoyant seal]

Both projects would be better 🙂 why to choose, if u can do all

[vital wyvern]

I'm not an interviewer, nor am I SWE, so I'm not sure I'm in an excellent position to tell you which would be a better response, but I think either example is fine, so long as you word it well. 🤷‍♂️ Your goal should be to match your responses to behavioral questions to specific job requirements or recommendations. (in a manner that doesn't sound like you're just jamming them in there just because.)

[true harness]

because your answer will be too long?

the goal of the questions is for you to describe one situation. the answer is 30-60s. 2 situations would be pushing it either over the limit, or the situations won't be described in depth enough

[delicate bane]

5 minutes later

[potent stratus]

yea I'll echo @vital wyvern - as an interviewer I want you to answer the question with the most relevant parts of the most relevant story. if I ask about a time you had to be flexible and change things mid-project, you have a story. if I ask about a time you showed initiative and took on a task that wasn't necessarily something you had to do, you have a story and I can follow up with why you chose that particular task, etc

[buoyant seal]

2 hours later. 🙂

[vital wyvern]

Something that struck me as kinda' nutty about my interview is that the panel was actually... at least at face value, genuinely interested in the stories I had to tell.

[coral vine]

Ok I see. It’s challenging for me to properly interpret these questions.

Ok so option b is more about me preventing it from happening in the future so it comes off as more irrelevant but option a is better because it talks about how I would deal with the problem when the team has messed up. And this is the true intent of the question, I gather. They want to know what I would do if all hell broke loose xD

[true harness]

use the STAR method: Situation, Task, Action, Result. the important part is the A and R

[vital wyvern]

I'm out of 'this' emotes, but if you structure your response with STAR, and work on making it sound natural instead of 'AND THE RESULT OF THAT WAS THAT I' then you're going to do well.

[true harness]

yeah, STAR is really just an outline. do not go "the situation was x. the problem was y. i did z. as a result, i learned a"

[coral vine]

I feel like a 40 yr old virgin being guided towards sex Dx

[pastel thunder]

what should i write in connecting note, if i saw a post and just want headstart to get interview? include my exp too?

[vital wyvern]

"Picture this, you're import pandas as np, in the middle of an important business meeting. You really have to use the restroom, but you can't quite just get up and leave the meeting. Well that's the situation I was faced in the summer of '65. I utilized the Observe Orient Decide Act loop as thus: I observed a nearby bottle of water that was nearly empty. I oriented my understanding of the situation to the reality; this water bottle might be my only hope of a restroom break in the next two hours. I decided on a course of action; It's important to be decisive under pressure. And I sprang into action. I finished off the rest of the water bottle and then relieved myself into it. The result was I am banned from workcenter meetings, and I am compelled to attend 40 hours of HR training after work hours."

[pine sleet]

That had me cracking up lol

[vital wyvern]

"Hello! I saw your post on Corpse Embalmer on LinkedIn. I have a lot of experience in corpse embalming, and I think I'd be a great match for your company. I'd love to connect and discuss the application process."

Obviously be more specific than 'a lot of experience'

[coral vine]

I’m finding it hard to imagine it being typical that people are not interested in what you have to say. I guess most people are not very technical ?

[pastel thunder]

and can i also send it to normal employee? do they help too?

[vital wyvern]

My job is to stare at spreadsheets. Not a lot of people find the appeal in that.

[vital wyvern]

I'd retool the message, and probably limit the connection requests to a few individuals. You don't want to be the weird dude that sent everyone a connection request that they talk about at the water cooler.

[pastel thunder]

ok thank you.

[vital wyvern]

Hm, just got an invite to the DISA/NSA/DOD cybersecurity conference on LinkedIn

[coral vine]

I pictured stack overflow

But instead of stack, bottle

[smoky quest]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[smoky quest]

Hi! this has nothing to do with this career related channel and you may want to reach modmail before advertising it

[pastel thunder]

heeeeey, i got a test link, YAAAAAAAAAY

first test link, after about 40 application, pray for me

[delicate bane]

we had a discussion about how jobs revolve around excel yesterday. very riveting

#career-advice message

[vital wyvern]

Here's a good work story, maybe not career discussion related-- but lessons learned are important too.

We did an enterprise database migration to a new system, and they (SWE contractor) didn't backup the database, they just slammed the button and moved the data over.
This went as expected, and duplicated about 1.1T USD in assets in the database system. That's not a typo either.
So, of course, we now had to go back and manually reenter it all.
The original database had been frozen for about 6 months (in an effort to prevent this) so the specific physical locations of all assets were no longer remotely accurate, and many assets had been entirely expended off record. (manually, with paper.)
We had the idea that we'd locally back up all transactions in Excel in addition to the 1000+ pages of paper detailing where and when things were moved, expended, etc.
Unfortunately, someone hid a cell at some point, and moved the entire row. Which shifted the entire data set by one, with absolutely zero idea where the actual shift occurred.

I spent about 30 16 hour days manually reconstructing 180 days of asset movement/transactions in an Excel document using manual documentation of the records, which themselves had to be traced through (to make sure we knew HOW it got to where it was.)

[delicate bane]

ah your excel horror stories def trump mine. this reminds me of the whole uk covid excel story

[coral vine]

Which justifies the bottle overflow

[vital wyvern]

I was so proud that I anticipated the disastrous migration by creating that Excel document, and it felt like running at about 80mph into a brick wall when I was about halfway through the data validation and realized that something wasn't quite right.

[delicate bane]

you wouldve been so solid had you created a copy

[vital wyvern]

Redundancy is important. Lessons learned.

[delicate bane]

its okay. lessons learned in the data world.

@near ocean @ivory sluice pandas' excel story at work is out of this world

[near ocean]

Am i the only one here with wholesome excel experience

[delicate bane]

quite possibly so. a miracle i would say.

[vital wyvern]

I happen to have a coworker in this very Discord that would recognize this story and precisely who I am if they scrolled into this channel .

[delicate bane]

shhhhhhh

[near ocean]

I have the same worry, this place is pretty big

[delicate bane]

i used to have this worry but then i realized people dont spend as much time on discord as i do

[near ocean]

Lol, first day on the job i glance at my manager's screen and see discord open 💀 i hope its not this server

[delicate bane]

when i went to nashville, i added one of my coworkers on discord lol

[near ocean]

At my last job i also thought i was fairly sneaky with discord but apparently everyone knew i had it open on company time

[delicate bane]

lol how did they know

[near ocean]

Turns out i was not sneaky at all lol

I thought just putting my body in the way of the screen would hide it well

[delicate bane]

i have a separate work laptop and only open discord on my personal one. but this only works bc im remote

[near ocean]

People knew what i was doing from across the room, and i only found out on my last day, i wanted to die lol

[dreamy shadow]

alt-tabbing so your parents don't find your playing games vibes.

[delicate bane]

did you see pandas' excel story above? wanted to tag you but wasnt sure about the tagging limit

[spark cobalt]

I usually use phone for Discord, but on the remote days where I'm in office I just display on monitor, no one's there to see

[delicate bane]

no ones in the office, right?

[spark cobalt]

Other than like HR but they don't count

[delicate bane]

dude HR is always like the only ones in the office lol. why is that

[spark cobalt]

No one in my half

[dreamy shadow]

wtf? doesn't excel have version history?

[spark cobalt]

True Microsoft moment

[near ocean]

Well yes, kind of

[delicate bane]

i thought so too. but i think it might only be the online version right? i dont remember

[near ocean]

Local excel also has history but its very limited and i think having autosave on fucks it up hard

[dreamy shadow]

[spark cobalt]

Time to go to work cyall

[delicate bane]

ohhh yes autosave def messes it up. i remember having to turn it off for something

[delicate bane]

oh wait history is blurred out. theres a reason right?

[dreamy shadow]

No idea lol

[compact spoke]

is there a job role where i can use javascript html css python mysql tableau excel and iot?

[near ocean]

It was a pain point with our interns, they liked autosave but as soon as you fuck something up theres no going back

[dreamy shadow]

I am logged into an account & the excel itself is in onedrive.

Autosave is there to auto save over your mistakes.

[delicate bane]

AND iot? those are very different tech stacks

[near ocean]

Thanks MSFT, very cool

[near ocean]

This sounds like BI work to me tbh

[spark cobalt]

I fucking hate the rain

I avoid Microsoft products like it's the plague. Only thing I use is Outlook cuz of work, but everything else is straight nope

[compact spoke]

well... umm... i am trying to get with software as well as hardware because here mostly software have the layoffs... hardware rarely... so interested in IoT and some programming.... safer side hehe

[spark cobalt]

There will always be a need for good engineers. Do what you think you'll excel at the most and find more passion in.

[compact spoke]

my friend got laid off from google. so yeah. he is a better programmer than me. so i have no hope of getting a job

[spark cobalt]

He's also probably better than all the new grads getting jobs right now.

[delicate bane]

are you related to @buoyant seal ? jk

[spark cobalt]

[compact spoke]

i am thinking of being a chef and once the "ai replacing coders and layoffs" settles... imma switch to cs. hope python stays easy tho

[near ocean]

Embrace the microsoft stack, it's inevitable in the corporate world

[spark cobalt]

Have you seen the robots that copy exactly Michelin star chefs movements to create dishes? Been a thing since like 2019

[near ocean]

Theres many more jobs than google jobs and they probably didnt get laid off because theyre bad but because google messed up hiring

[compact spoke]

and also java 😦 no idea corporates cannot do away with springboot and java. they think python coders are just normal college students using a lot of libraries

[spark cobalt]

Most people who got laid off found another job within a few months. Goes to show that many places are still hiring, even if it's not the big name companies.

[compact spoke]

well ai is inevitable right?

[near ocean]

No

[spark cobalt]

Like my company's trying to double in size this year

[compact spoke]

also do try forage. yall will love it. trust me. a gold resource for layoffs

[hallow escarp]

Is there any channel to job posting/ job seeking?

[near ocean]

Not in this server, but check the pins

[delicate bane]

that doesnt make sense but to each their own.

[zealous path]

Makes no sense as by then AI will replace all CS.
By then you’d only be able to do it as a hobby and not a job

[true harness]

how'd it go?

[jade blaze]

I think it was a good interview, but it's late Friday now, so I don't expect to hear if there's a next step until Monday.

[true harness]

manifesting a second interview for you 😤

[delicate bane]

i spy a stel 🔎

i hope you are writing a short story about AI's (non) impact on programming jobs

bruh. just no.

[peak halo]

Most of the discourse about ChatGPT in this channel is talking down fears that it will eliminate developer positions. And even if it's true that ChatGPT can't fully replace human labor, I do think it can make experienced developers more efficient. So I wonder if it (and other AI tools) could eventually reduce the number of developers needed in a given team, and eliminate positions in that sense.

[delicate bane]

i think it might even open more positions. developers who specialize in working with AI APIs, etc.

[delicate bane]

and yeah there is always a lot of FUD with this type of stuff. this is one of those narratives that stick to people and some media entities like to perpetuate

[eternal summit]

I'm not really sure how the industry works but do you think being proficient in like one language (Python) for example is enough to gain a job? or do I need to know multiple?

[delicate bane]

usually one language is not sufficient

[peak halo]

Nobody cares about the number of languages in which you are "proficient". they care if you know how to do the kinds of things they do, regardless of language.

[eternal summit]

So if i know how to work python I should be solid for employment? correct?

[peak halo]

python is "easy" in the sense that the language is intended to have a gradual learning curve. it doesn't mean that complicated problems are suddenly less complicated in Python.

[peak halo]

No. Like I said, nobody cares about the number of languages in which you are proficient. Even if you're only proficient in one, and that it's Python. If you want to be a web developer, you need to have demonstrated ability in web development, regardless of language.

[coral vine]

Me after my 2nd mock interview today

But but but

I got better than my first one.

My confidence grew from the last one! Says the extrovert interviewer

[delicate bane]

there is more to web dev than just knowing one language btw

i thought you never wanted to go the traditional swe route anyway. werent you trying to go for quant

[eternal summit]

Why isn't it?

[peak halo]

why not

[delicate bane]

i think whether a career path is "worth it" or not is dependent on the person

[eternal summit]

What careers are you guys pursuing?

[coral vine]

Behavioral questions

Tell me about yourself.

What do you see yourself contributing within the next 6 months at our company if hired?

What project are you most proud of and why?

How do you handle multiple deadlines?

Why do you want to work at our company?

Do you have any questions you want to ask about our company?

Those are the ones I remember doing. I was nervous and was blanking out Dx we both had “shaky voice” moments 😞

No, I feel more comfortable with that one though. That’s how I naturally think! It’s like the social quadrant of my brain is missing Dx

I’m thinking maybe I need to just say the truth during the behavioral portion.

Because it sounds worse when I try to be someone I’m not

[vital wyvern]

Typically a good idea is to tell the truth lol

[delicate bane]

skyglow is the same as me. a data scientist. for myself, im not 100% sure if i want to stay in DS but i do see myself in a technical role in the future.

[coral vine]

Hi company, I’m not a team player. I… I’m a lone wolf.

I walk alone. Always have. Always will.

Programming wasn’t marketed as a social career Dx I only found out after school :/

[dreamy shadow]

All jobs are social.

[coral vine]

What about security officer

[delicate bane]

umm. i think thats a red flag in many roles that require working in a team...which many developer roles would fall under

[dreamy shadow]

Including security officer.

[coral vine]

I was reciting a line I heard from a movie called “isle of dogs”.

Chief the dog kinda acts that way.

It was sarcasm coping from stress!

[delicate bane]

hmm havent seen that movie.

is it any good

[coral vine]

Chief is an independent savage dog who leads a group of domesticated dogs.

One of the top movies I’ve seen. But hated from doctor friend. She says the fictional medical researchers in the film didn’t get credit for their large contribution. So she dissed the film entirely. So if you’re cynical, you won’t enjoy it.

[buoyant seal]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Soa3gO7tL-c
🎵 "I walk alone" 🎵

[coral vine]

Programming is like trying to set up a tent

You have to hook down all 4 corners

• communication
• technical
• tool
• reading

Then when you hooked down 3, by the time that’s done… you go to hook down 4. But as you try to hook down 4, you take too long so one of the other 3 hooks come off.

So you hook down 4, then you go to fix the one that got unhooked.

Then when you’re almost done fixing that one, one of the other 3 hooks get unhooked.

Then the cycle repeats.

It’s like looney tunes except the jokes on you o.o

But the cool part is that if you ever manage to get all 4 hooks down, then the feeling is better than ecstacy

[summer roost]

It's pretty hard to think of worse red flags a candidate could unintentionally trigger

[coral vine]

dirty feet on bosses desk?

why this recommendation? 😮

[delicate bane]

bruh

i saw a post about citadel and thought of you

[coral vine]

I practiced a lot of leetcode and pair programming casually though. I wish I discovered GTCI much sooner. It made it a lot easier o.o

[delicate bane]

ok this is too much finance for me atm. ill remove it

[coral vine]

Never seen this site before 😮

Looks like it has plenty of the same leetcode problems

Why solve those ones? Why not Leetcode? o.o

[coral vine]

Ah, thanks for the recommendation. I like how the format is very barebone like GTCI

Plus, I've been needing a break from seeing "Leetcode". Brings back memories of.... the "early days"

shudders

[wide drum]

answer to somebody's question to add no's divisible by 3 and 5 in a given range by user and get their sum:
m=int(input("enter the starting number:"))
n=int(input("enter the ending number:"))
o=n+1
l1=[]
for i in range(m,o):
if i%3 == 0 or i%5 == 0:
l1.append(i)
lsum=(sum(l1))
print(lsum)

[near ocean]

Wrong channel #python-discussion

[spark cobalt]

Grokking

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384>

[peak halo]

!cban 1078730565160800287 porn

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @pure geyser permanently.

[winged coyote]

Hey everyone :D does anyone know of any trusted work from home internship websites I can apply on?

[delicate bane]

everyone wants a remote gig nowadays huh

guess im weird in that id prefer hybrid

[delicate bane]

ah im thinking about full time jobs

after graduation

[true harness]

there's a lot of benefit to remote. you have a much wider number of opportunities to apply to if you don't want to relocate, or if you just can't

[delicate bane]

yeah i know theres a lot of upside for most peeps. thats also why they are soooo much more competitive

[pastel thunder]

The test i got for the role "Sr Software Engineer - AI & ML" only contains test for Vue js, and other web dev things, no ML

I contacted recruiter, but no response yet, is it common mistake, or comman way of testing on different domain??
I did some research and got to know SDE at that company work mainly on Vue.js, but requirements asked AI/ML, nothing about vue.js
Plus the role name if slightly different and does mention AI/ML.

[delicate bane]

i just know myself and i function differently and would benefit from a hybrid role

[pastel thunder]

Also the test link seemed generic, many different test link for many roles was there.

[true harness]

I think I would too, but right now I can't really. summer internships maybe though

[buoyant seal]

for some HRs javascript and java is the same thing too 😁

[delicate bane]

yeah im in a remote job atm and its slowly sucking the soul out of me

[pastel thunder]

how is a ML guy expected to perform well?

[buoyant seal]

remote is better than office :b i would not have been able to work at my work at all if it was not for remote :/ (because i am not in France)

[delicate bane]

lmao. it could be like what DW said where there was a mix up. or it could be like my friends position where he is a SWE on one of the ML teams. using react to create internal tools for data scientists/SMEs at the company

[pastel thunder]

should i try to take help on online test, if interview would be ML, i may pass

[delicate bane]

yeah i know everyones circumstance is different. i just dont like this full remote thing for myself. it also doesnt help that my role requires too much from too many stakeholders, which is harder to do stuff remotely

maybe i just need to change jobs

@buoyant seal bro its you

[buoyant seal]

:b not almost. i have some dislike for Machine Learning stuff. too big, clumsy and overconsuming.

[covert vector]

yo how do i get back into python after a long break (1 year around). do i just do a simple project to get into the groove

[delicate bane]

i know you have passionate hate for ML. but i was referring to the python + go part

[buoyant seal]

ah. that is often enough combo actually. pretty popular one, one of reasons i chose go

[delicate bane]

apparently its used in reddit's services that interface with their ML stack

if not a part of it. i remember hearing something about this on a separate podcast

[buoyant seal]

considering how cool golang, i would not be surprised if any backend dev would learn it at some point eventually after some year X

[delicate bane]

golang also opens up some IoT/embedded jobs i think right?

[vapid jay]

any tips on pursuing a career in ML? I'm currently studying some basics of ML and it is really overwhelming.

[buoyant seal]

yeah

[delicate bane]

all i remember is talking to a SWE doing a startup who realized he needed to learn golang to do what he needed to do for ML on some IoT devices. guy came from background in 10+ years of regular web dev

[buoyant seal]

you know... golang essentially kind of the only one compiling language with good linux and ecosystem support for backend So it fills kind of unique niche
C# is too much windows
Java is JIT
everything else is interpreted

Some people suggest Rust, but i don't see really good ecosystem support for it in web dev

[delicate bane]

if only rust was more popular. rip

[buoyant seal]

good enough to me knowing just one snowflake new language, with coverage of compiling good results :b (go)
funny enough, three my chosen languages are all from different categories. Interpreting (Python), Just In Time (Java) and Compiling (Golang). Thus they kind of cover the possible maximum of different case usages.

[delicate bane]

ultimate backend dev

[winged coyote]

oki but i dont really know which companies should i apply to :(

like how do i talk with them about it

[unborn bridge]

politely

[winged coyote]

ow ;-;

[unborn bridge]

oh I just meant that in general, not commenting on anything I've seen here, I just sat down

[winged coyote]

also can someone check my resume and tell me what i should do next? ;-;

[gritty rivet]

Share it here as an image with personal details redacted

[winged coyote]

okioki be right back

[true harness]

search for internships, apply to ones you like

[vital wyvern]

understood and followed oral and written directions

[shy plume]

any tips on a beginner to learn python, maybe a youtube channel or free course or something please

[winged coyote]

that react has absolutely destroyed my confidence

[vital wyvern]

Your bullets should be related to actual job duties you had.
Maintained updated knowledge is not a job duty. What did you do?

[winged coyote]

I'm sorryyy 😭

[vital wyvern]

You're fine, this stuff happens, it's hard to quantify what you did sometimes.

Give me just a second to type out an example.

[winged coyote]

okioki

[pine sleet]

Did you mean "Strong work ethic"?

[winged coyote]

hmm?

[vital wyvern]

Bah I can't really give an example without... there's not any actual work stuff in there

[pine sleet]

It says "Strong worth ethic", not sure if that's intentional or not

[true harness]

increased x by y%

[prime wadi]

yo

[winged coyote]

ow yes work

[winged coyote]

I know 😔

[pine sleet]

Yeah, typos may give the person reading your resume a negative impression

[vital wyvern]

These are very lengthy (this is my master resume.) I trim these down a bit, but they should give you some idea of 'ACTION - IMPACT - RESULT'

[winged coyote]

I see I'll edit my resume

[vital wyvern]

To be clear, they're not supposed to be that long. This is specifically a document that holds information about my resume. These get trimmed down to more succinct bullet points depending on the job requirements/recommendations.

But I think it highlights the idea of 'What did you do, how did you do it, and what was the result' a little clearer.

[winged coyote]

mhmmmm

but if I'm being honest I haven't done much

[vital wyvern]

Following instructions is a baseline expectation of any job role. 😛

[winged coyote]

and it'll make my resume really empty ;-;

[vital wyvern]

Then work on generating some individual projects.

[winged coyote]

I knoww don't tease me 😭

[tacit bone]

yeah that's very telling

[winged coyote]

yes I'm doin some

[vital wyvern]

Relax, that's not helpful.

[winged coyote]

I knoww 😔

it's okay he's right tbf

[vital wyvern]

No, he's not. You don't need extensive guidance, there are plenty of qualified professionals here that can give you enough information to start to make more concerted decisions in professional development.
To be clear, I am not one of these, I am not an SWE. That doesn't mean you shouldn't solicit every avenue you can for information-- so long as you're also doing research yourself to make yourself more marketable.

You need to solidify your resume first-- you're clearly interested in ML. That's going to be very hard to broach into without some sort of formal education, which I'm not sure I saw in your resume. This means that you need both EXCEPTIONAL personal networking, and VERY HIGH QUALITY individual projects.

When you're at these internship roles, you need to be DOCUMENTING everything you do, so when you write your resume later, you have a clear idea of the things you did, the scope of your projects, and the impacts of those actions.

Right now, my primary advice to you would be to dig deep into your memory to look at the actual projects you've done in those internship roles and try to quantify that experience using the Action-Impact-Result framework.

[buoyant seal]

#career-advice message
@winged coyote btw, here is a very great example of Machine learning pet project to catch eye of any person

https://npigeons.com/ here is a great example of Machine Learning project btw (not mine)
Person made product that in Viva La Dirt videos, tracked all encounters of all characters across its small videos and gives links to users to the video it mentions them
I woud get such machine learning guy right away 😆

very catchy presenting ML skills

[winged coyote]

Ooooooo I really was look for a nice ml project thanks dark I'll try to get it working from tomorrow, is it OK if I ping you if I realllllly get stuck?

[buoyant seal]

definitely not. i hate machine learning to work with 😁 i am backend/devops guy
I can appreciate candy-beautiful ML project though

[winged coyote]

yes I'll try to improve on these points and thanks for having my back I've been slacking off all this time for reasons I cannot say here but you were really helpful

[molten ibex]

how do I learn python?

[tulip barn]

hey guys

Im a computer science student; I was wondering if its possible for me to get a part time job in this field (as a ungrad student)

[delicate bane]

inb4 you have to help serve ML endpoints in the future

[buoyant seal]

Guess why I learn non python backend languages, and especially Java? Because there should not be ML present hopefully

[delicate bane]

ah dont remember if i saved it but there was a job description that was basically java devs getting frustrated with/ranting about python and ML libraries while trying to use ML in their app and now they needed to basically hire an ML engineer to help with that

[delicate bane]

ahhhh i found it. my bad java/kotlin

we got a whole life story in this job description amirite

[delicate bane]

anyway, i also came across this from my notes which is probably why you also feel this way

the infamous google paper from d sculley

[buoyant seal]

last three at least i mean here.
With beyond any reasonable times increased building/testing time to check stuff in addition

[delicate bane]

yeah i think if you walk into trying to standup any ML system you will be faced with all sorts of anti-patterns

[buoyant seal]

no ML = no problems 🙂

[delicate bane]

for now

show them the famous google paper, "ML: The High-Interest Credit Card of Technical Debt" or that slide lol

[dreamy shadow]

Time to run everything in excel

[buoyant seal]

including production database? 😅

[dreamy shadow]

[buoyant seal]

Delete. This is not place for shitposting

[pastel thunder]

game on

[lean moth]

Hey @inland trout sorry to ping you, but would you recommend doing a phd in general? (since you are in your 4th year now)

[inland trout]

no

[lean moth]

Why did you choose to do one?

[inland trout]

because i like reading, doing research, and publishing results. but even then i'd think about it twice 😛

[lean moth]

Hmm, right ..

[inland trout]

a phd is chiefly about academia, which is NOT research. it's bureaucracy, lobbying, begging for money, supervising students, and the grind of publish or perish

[lean moth]

So you want to become a prof, or does it help you get a better job?

[inland trout]

i'm honestly not sure. i went with the path of least resistance cuz i was in uni, the chance presented itself, and i enjoyed working in the lab i was in during my master thesis. the combination of all of these things made it a good choice to keep working with the same people in a phd as i figured stuff out. i would say that in general this is a bad approach though. many people do this and end up dropping out. not even because it's "difficult" per se. it's stressful mentally and emotionally. requires a weird kind of patience more than anything else

[lean moth]

Kinda have the same vibe rn I think, I like research and all these projects and stuff, getting good grades, but I kinda also just go with path of least resistance, causing me to do my master in the same uni again. Was also looking at industrial PHD, not sure how much different that is from a regular PHD.

I don't really have work experience, so I also feel like if I don't get some entry job I might just miss out on necessary experience and be late to that party

[white relic]

The thing that makes a bigger difference than any other single factor to the success of your PhD is your choice of advisor

so, you know... take a look at your options there

[lean moth]

Yeah, I have had some 1 on 1 conversations with some profs and there's definitely some very nice profs and a few bad apples :/

[white relic]

(I do not have a PhD, but I'm in the minority in my field in that respect)

[inland trout]

the work experience part i would say depends on what kind of job you'd be interested in. positions in research in certain companies are more than happy to get fresh new hires. if you have a job in mind, i'd think about it from that perspective. does a phd help you get that job? maybe get a higher salary in it? or if not, are you super passionate about the topic and, ideally, already know that you work well with the people in the phd program (as trentj says, this is absolutely crucial)?

[lean moth]

Yeah that makes sense

I've got 1 more year to figure it out, but I might at least get 1 year of working experience just as programmer, and hopefully something specific to machine learning.

Got a big master project next year, so hopefully some extra time to think it through

[inland trout]

but really keep it in the back of your head: a phd is about the academia system. the rest of the stuff, including your actual research, ends up being secondary. so read up on the system and see if it sounds like something you can put up with

[delicate bane]

ive come across probably 15+ podcast episodes (i listen to a lot of podcasts) that have discussed this very question from an ML perspective. do you want to know what almost all of them said? hehe. im sure you can guess.

anyway, lossberg had a good perspective on this way back when: #career-advice message

also went the phd physics -> DS/ML route

#career-advice message

[delicate bane]

also have you considered doing an internship at all?

[lean moth]

For the master project?

[delicate bane]

no i just meant for industry exp

[lean moth]

What would be the difference between being a intern and just starting as a fresh programmer/ml "dude"?

[delicate bane]

you could do that, yes.

an internship would be during your studies and would help you spring board to a full time gig afterwards

[dreamy shadow]

Companies weigh "full time" more than internships.

[delicate bane]

since it is uber competitive for entry level positions, especially in a field like ML

[lean moth]

Ah, so more like part time then

[delicate bane]

yeah pretty much. do you not have internships wherever you are?

[dreamy shadow]

I feel like this isn't by choice lol. My boss's PhD was in neuroscience, ended up in insurance.

[delicate bane]

what isnt by choice? it is usually never by choice lol. aurendil had another story about this. lemme pull it up

[lean moth]

Netherlands, and sure there are, just haven't really looked into it. Mostly focussing on uni and getting good grades and just studying and reading a bit for myself.

[dreamy shadow]

Moving from PhD in X -> DS. DS is good at absorbing odd degrees.

[delicate bane]

ah netherlands nice. one of the podcasts i follow, the guy is from there. its a good one.

[delicate bane]

#career-advice message take a gander

[dreamy shadow]

~~you better run ~~ I personally don't recommend anything past a masters. PhD is more of a: You better buckle up and be in it for the long haul (Or you're a foreigner trying to get into the US)

[delicate bane]

you dont have to convince me. what do you think those 15+ podcasts did?

[dreamy shadow]

Hell, I wouldn't have even recommended masters 4 years ago if it wasn't for this degree creep bs.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah have some coworkers that did this. Like 36 years old with 4 YOE.

[delicate bane]

FYI Jacqueline Nolis has the best take on this lmao

[spark cobalt]

Degree creep?

[dreamy shadow]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credentialism_and_educational_inflation#Problems Know more as credential creep.
Basically, bottom tier jobs requiring degrees when in the past they didn't.

[spark cobalt]

Ah gotcha

[dreamy shadow]

Data entry job that really requires nothing but excel + 60WPM? Better ask for a 4 year degree.

[spark cobalt]

It's not that the jobs require a degree, companies just set that requirement because they can get people to do unskilled labor even with a degree.

Huge social issue. Everyone can "afford" college because banks take no risk and now everyone goes with alternative options slowly dying out. (Oh and then because of this, since everyone's spending power for college is that much higher, colleges raise their price.)

[delicate bane]

"I have been spending my life working towards being a tenured professor. I have spent years doing research and publishing papers, all for the goal of an academia life. But now I realize that isn’t what I want, and instead I would like to go into industry. I don’t have any industry experience; how do I get in?"

They may be a PhD, a post-doc, an adjunct, or even tenure track professor, but regardless of their status the question is the same. These people are in a place I like to call the academic trap. The academic trap is when your career trajectory is so specialized for academia that you’re unprepared for a job outside of it.

her words are a lot more...real on the podcast. lets just leave it there

[dreamy shadow]

That's not really a surprise to me, as both my old bosses & co-workers held PhDs and don't recommend it.

[spark cobalt]

Damn

[dreamy shadow]

Academic is also known to be toxic af.

[delicate bane]

she also shared some academia horror stories. but theres no surprise there

[lean moth]

Is that from a podcast? (if so, link?)

[delicate bane]

ofc there were examples of "good" cases too from other podcasts

[dreamy shadow]

Good quality candidates for cheap. Just slap on a 1-2 year req to flush out candidates that can't handle basic outlook and bam.

[delicate bane]

ill DM you

[orchid brook]

guys

Is engineering to business a good switch? Im a computer engr student and I enjoy swe and ml but I wouldn’t want this to be my everything, like I enjoy the intern experience so far and projects but after graduation I don’t really want this type of a career where i debug from home work on software and just do this tech work all my life

[spark cobalt]

What's the goal in business?

[orchid brook]

rn what’s appealing to me is the swe internships and new grad roles, but after 1-2 yoe post graduation in swe i wanna get into finance or management or consulting, maybe go for an mba or cfa and just move to the business side of things because it has more growth and is less repetitive, but idk if this is the right path for me

goal wise Id say i dont see myself in software or some engineering role 10 years from now because ive grown up around engineers and i feel like we’re just tools, that get used and in the beginning of ones career it might be fun but i kinda wanna be the one managing the tools or doing something more impactful or less repetitive

but idk if im thinking right

because theres def good money in swe and tech leads and what not can move up a lot in their careers so it’s not a dead end, but being more business oriented and not fully tech loaded makes it seem more flexible and valuable to me idk

[buoyant seal]

out of curiosity, from which u are country?

[orchid brook]

us

[leaden jasper]

I think within a job there's opportunity to naturally take on more project management/business roles. If you have the tech background that can go a long way. But also, there are technically positions that aren't repetitive and do feel impactful.

How much work experience do you have currently?

[orchid brook]

oh im a student with internships only lol

[buoyant seal]

you know, SWE internships/junior stage is the most difficult one kind of, with most effort and luck to go through.
It kind of makes sense to continue going path if u passed that stage, or not going into it at all
Well, at least first 1-2 years of post graduate to acquire experience basically is most problem for people
During which often not a lot of salary is paid

[orchid brook]

i mean im enjoying this grind and the compensation for me is amazing as a student so i wanna go for swe right after graduation just because of the benefits

but if i continue afterwards, will i really grow? Isnt consulting or pm or moving into finance or something better for long term career planning?

[buoyant seal]

there is room for growth for all years of tech career.
Most people don't go pass junior and middle rank developer level
some go to Senior level
then they get exploring in width, more related tech specializations which are good to synergize with their main one
Or at some point of rank (at junior/middle or senior, at any moment) switch to management positions yeah

The most amazing tech leaders / managers are the ones which of course know tech well enough to be respected by other devs

[orchid brook]

hmm so either get more diverse experience in tech or switch to management when you hit mid level ish is the common path then right

[orchid brook]

but after junior exp if i go to consulting or pm is the growth rate of that route the same as this one? Or is there more room for promotion/development?

[buoyant seal]

from what i saw

1. room for growth in height and width in tech side is huge
2. room for growth in management is huge, if u switched to it during senior level
3. room for growth at management positions at least in outsourcing companies is basically zero for tech people which switched at junior level to management (may be i will be corrected as wrong and there is more room for growth) (at least that is my impression from speaking with my manager)

[orchid brook]

How many yoe is mid level usually

[true harness]

depends on the years of experience

[buoyant seal]

that is very individual.
Junior can remain junior even for 4 and 8 years (if he sucks at self training and has non tech higher education in addition)

But usually, if person graduated from CS degree
person reaches middle rank to 2-3th year, or at least not later than at 4th year
Well, at least AWS fires all juniors who did not manage to do it within 4 years

[orchid brook]

dang thats fast

so mid is like two roles up from entry level?

If you have a lot of internship/industry experience in college then can you move up to mid faster?

[buoyant seal]

yeah, if educated yourself during university, graduated from CS university
was lucky to receive relevant education / educated yourself for missing stuff in addition (Robert Martin claims, ideal programmer learns up to 20 hours per week in his free time from work. Reading books, doing pet projects)
Then it is reasonably possible to get yourself middle level within 2 years
P.S. that is also depending on what kind of job duties you received during those two years. Some job duties facilitate quicker growth, some benefit many times slower

So, a lot of luck is involved, summed up with self training dedication

[orchid brook]

hmm gotcha

but within tech full swe and ml roles are on the rise now right? In terms of growth and flexibility

like these would be better than embedded or security right? Or does the specialization not matter?

[delicate bane]

if you do tech for a few years, you would be well set up and competitive for technical product management roles

[pine sleet]

Hate to break in but, genuine question: how worthwhile is having Rust projects on your GitHub? Is it really something employers are looking for these days?

[true harness]

iirc there's someone here that was doing something like that

[royal torrent]

where can i get python certs?

[buoyant seal]

it depends on your specialization i would say

[true harness]

👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏

[pine sleet]

I wouldn't say I necessarily specialize in any one thing

[true harness]

as a small anecdote (no offers yet, lol). most of my github projects are rust and i've gotten a few interviews

[vapid jay]

is this where i find help for github codes?

[delicate bane]

@orchid brook an mba would def help too if you are going for this type of role

[pine sleet]

Hmm, yeah. I suppose what language you use is not as important as how well you are at picking up new ones

[buoyant seal]

seniors swe's are kind of always in need. At their level, they usually accumulate to their time a lot of skills in width to cover different kind of job choices and being all the time in demand

can't say for ML same. As far as i know, it is very young, plus requires heavy maturity from organization... otherwise it is pretty much data engineering role

hubt — 09/22/2022
i warn everyone that wants to be in AI/ML: you spend a huge amount of time on data validation, cleanup, and analysis. and generally a lot less time than you'd think on the actual AI/ML part. unless your company has very mature data management and data pipelines(very few companies do), expect to spend a lot more time on data engineering than AI/ML
ML is kind of very very expensive in general pleasure, so... very specific thing to have
ergh, they have their own armosphere kind of separated from just regular SWE.
more tied to Data Science + Data engineering

[orchid brook]

See i used to think ml is the next big thing and whatnot but from my project experience so far it’s just data analysis and stats and python and not as exciting as I thought

[true harness]

#career-advice message. but yeah. skills are broader than just a single language. obviously having the language they want to hire for is better, but it doesn't matter that much

[orchid brook]

but i keep hearing ml is the next big thing so idk if i should gain more experience here or just focus more on swe and systems to build a stronger core

[delicate bane]

you would need to look at ML engineering or a SWE on an ML team for the more exciting bits. the average data scientist is sadly more nontechnical than not as sky would know

this is also true

[orchid brook]

It was an industry project

using ml nlp etc in a web app so kinda both swe and ml ig but not too complicated

[delicate bane]

you say it like its a binary decision. just focus on the intersection — how to serve ML models in production, how to design ML systems, etc.

[orchid brook]

lol thats true

Yeah i just need more experience for now ig

[delicate bane]

dont focus on the research side — realistically you arent going to train your own ML model from scratch using distributed training

[buoyant seal]

Then it will benefit you in a bit... complicated way.
You may become lucky and getting job in this language, then u will gain very good useful experience, with having salary in niche of rarely available devs
But chances for that 10-50times smaller than in more popular language

Safer bet to invest yourself into more popular language in early stages of career

[delicate bane]

you wouldnt need to learn Jax, nor to figure out GPU eccentricities, etc.

[true harness]

iirc, robin is in high school atm. it's far more important to just do what you like, imo

[delicate bane]

people forget LLMs is just one side of AI. theres plenty more use cases in more normal ML applications for specific industries

[pine sleet]

Yeah, I am. Though I'm getting awfully close to graduating (~2 months) so wanted to start taking things seriously.
I have a good bit of experience in some of the "mainstream" language, and I learn pretty fast (if I do say so myself), so was just seeing if more niche languages like Rust would be of value to learn

[orchid brook]

bro i havent used java yet 🥲

I feel so bad because all my experience has been in C cpp python js dart etc but none java

[pine sleet]

Java's alright
I dislike the ecosystem more than the language itself

[buoyant seal]

same can be said about C# :/

[delicate bane]

you should focus less on learning more languages and more on technical domain knowledge imo

[orchid brook]

true, maybe i should do a project or smth

[delicate bane]

research route huh?

sidenote: dataclasses are life. also pydantic data models/fastapi schemas

hpc?

gotcha

[buoyant seal]

tempting Django Ninja project. Benefits of FastAPI endpoints/openapi docs and etc with Django ORM/admin/other django stuff 🙂
For my pet project i went with pure Fast API for reliability though.

[delicate bane]

i personally think having fastapi as a skill in your toolbelt gives you bonus points as a python dev but thats my biases speaking. i showed fastapi to my python dev coworkers and they 200% loved it.

[pastel thunder]

i do i know what in-hand salary i would get if for example i am working remote at some international company?

while staying in my country.

[peak halo]

It's better to look on Glassdoor. There are too many variables for you to get meaningful answers to that here.

[pastel thunder]

but wait, its a startup

[summer roost]

That's a very rare situation in general. I don't think you'll be able to find enough data to extrapolate. Companies rarely hire remote workers in other countries as employees.

[lavish rampart]

hey guys can someone help me understand the if statement?

it's just too complicated

[pine sleet]

You can open a room in #1035199133436354600 , this is for career discussion

[smoky quest]

You would get the salary of someone in your position from your area.
Salaries are based on your location, not the company's HQ

[pastel thunder]

and what is the concept of getting paid in dollar, and working remote? i have heard, when if the customers are from HQ location, they will have to pay employee solving the problem in dollar.

the recruiter asked for a detailed resume, should i ask directly about this?

[smoky quest]

The currency will depend on the specifics of the company, your country, your legal structure, etc.

[smoky quest]

What is there to be asked about a resume?

[quasi axle]

Do companies take recent grads (<1 year out) from job positions on their official sites or “University recruitment” sites only. I’m noticing the university recruitment pages of every single tech firm are barren wastelands

[vapid jay]

Hi guys, I have created a chatbot and I am working on it, already created datasheet of 20k+ sentences, now i need to work on algorithm, if someone is interested in working with me, can dm me

[pastel thunder]

about compensation , i mean

[spark cobalt]

At least for my company, we heavily invest time into things like Handshake and career fairs at schools instead of job postings on our website.

[hot saddle]

Guys, is university nessesery for programmer? Can I get job after school without university?

I checked pins, okay, nvm

[winged coyote]

@vital wyvern ellooooo hope im not annoying you. I re did my resume on the points you made should i resend it here?

[true harness]

yes, unless you don't want any more help 😛

[winged coyote]

okioki brb

here :D

[true harness]

• honestly i think you should get rid of all the "participant" awards. participating is not really an award
• i'd probably remove the "a practice project". all projects are pretty much practice projects
• i'd probably remove your high school. i'm not entirely sure of the school system where you are, but it's probably not relevant if you're in university about to graduate
• your internships still need more detail. for example, describe what technical expertise you contributed, what tweaks and improvements and how they improved the repos, etc

[near ocean]

You have a hacktoberfest participation entry higher up than olympiads?

[winged coyote]

• ight ill remove the participations
• ow
• they do ask for high school here on some companies
• oki ill try to elaborate but it was way back and i dont remember what i did

[winged coyote]

those r from back in 2018 when i had just passed hs

the others r more recent so i kinda thought i should keep em higher

[true harness]

has anyone said anything about the two columns?

[winged coyote]

yep

yes

[true harness]

huh?

[winged coyote]

yes I am ;-;

whats codeforces

[pastel thunder]

dsa

[winged coyote]

ow imma do it anyways

ye

its ok i kinda need the egotisticals

[true harness]

no. but it's been less than a day for one and only a day for the other. not quite at the sigmasigma stage yet

[foggy harbor]

ello

[drifting gull]

heya fellas

[pastel thunder]

are all AWS certs paid? i dont if i misheard but i thought cloud practitioner cert was free.

[summer pecan]

yo can sm1 in here help me with a formula in math?

whats a^3 - b^2 - c^2

[drifting gull]

@summer pecan depends which grade?

[drifting gull]

nvm

[near ocean]

This isnt the channel for help, nothing about the title of this channel suggests that

[summer pecan]

ok

[drifting gull]

hey if anyone reads this and is kind enough to help me out and kind of mentor me please let me know I i can directly message you

[vital wyvern]

Seems that psv gave you good advice (also sorry for not seeing this). I have a few nitpicky things like putting your anticipated graduation date in your university section, but it's starting to look a bit better.
I saw a resume recently that listed specific library competencies that might be required for boolean searches under 'Python' (so like... Python newline indent TensorFlow, PyTorch, etc.) That I think I like as a delivery method for those specific libraries.

[winged coyote]

I've used pandas numpy scikit matplot seaborn now but they seemed cluttery on the resume so i didnt split em

[vital wyvern]

You can gear it towards your job applications (no real compelling reason to list... Torch if the company uses Tensorflow) . And I think it's still perfectly reasonable to cite them next to the project you used, just commenting on an alternative way of displaying that information.

[winged coyote]

ow okioki thanks for the help again :D

[pastel thunder]

seems like required for all non entry level jobs

yeah from what i see, and when it comes to ML, 99% list it

[keen gazelle]

The ecosystem of Java is arguably one of the best out there lmao, what?

[buoyant seal]

So far i am complaining only about its package manager and task runner
Maven and Gradle both kind of look bad
They make kind of bad first impression with how unwell their config files are written and badly working cli help about available features

[trail haven]

--user

[keen gazelle]

Name something better, I'll wait.. I bet you can't

[buoyant seal]

Python Poetry and Pytest

[keen gazelle]

AHAHAHA

That's a package manager, sure, but Gradle/Maven are complete build systems and automation tools

[buoyant seal]

Python tools are separated, but each one does way better its one job it was made for
Poetry has smooth one simple ini config
Pytest has smooth working CLI interface with good documented all features and flags

[buoyant seal]

Also Golang default package manager and tools. Simple package management as standard tool coming with language, again with minimal amount of config files
And go test which is again better documented (and faster working. Even python tests work faster than smallest hello world Java files)

To be honest, even Javascript ecosystem offers better developer experience

So far worse experience I encountered only with using Visual Studio and C++

[near ocean]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[vapid jay]

Hello Python bot.

[coral vine]

Thanks all! Everyone’s advice here has been superb.

Again, I did another interview yesterday and absolutely none of the questions I practiced were on it xD

However, I’m getting a lot better at just winging it. Being more relevant, succinct, and all. 🙂

Could I please get help with this question? How would you answer this? Also you only have 90 seconds to say the answer.

• Explain about how you used SOLID principles for a project.

What I did was explain how I used SOL in a single project but didn’t have enough time to explain the rest.

[noble kettle]

As a non-IT professional with skills in Python3, HTML5, CSS3, MySQL, Bootstrap, and Flask, I am seeking career advice on transitioning to a career in Python programming. Any guidance or recommendations on career options or skill development would be greatly appreciated.

[buoyant seal]

book Clean Architecture. A Craftman's Guide to Software Structure And Design by Robert C. Martin. Chapter III Design Principles
book #9 from the list of my recomendations: #web-development message

[delicate bane]

i previously thought software engineering salaries were bimodal, not trimodal...interesting

but that #3 bucket...idk if youll see that in a lot of data

[fluid elm]

normally not many people will mentor u through dms, better option is to ask here or google the ideas u have, i hope u will find something good

[delicate bane]

which country/job market are you in? what type of role are you looking for? a general "python developer" isnt as common as a role as a web dev role.

[summer roost]

I think that's the FAANG / "big tech" bucket. I think even if you accept bimodal instead of trimodal, what you see is the first two peaks being combined into one - that #3 peak in the trimodal diagram is the second peak in the bimodal understanding of salaries, I think.

[inland spade]

I'm currently a CS undergrad and wanna do my masters in Cybersecurity.... and while in undergrad, I wanna create/work on projects but I've never really done one before. Any tips on where to start and how to start?

[pastel thunder]

jump in. make projects considering what industry are interested in.

[delicate bane]

ahhh that makes sense, i think youre right in that regard

[smoky quest]

I am not sure to follow.
Can you put that in a question?

[smoky quest]

That chart doesn't really make sense anyway. I would ignore it

[delicate bane]

ok

[smoky quest]

By virtue of having a degree, you would expect your salary to already be in the 3rd bucket

[delicate bane]

yeah i would be interested in seeing more degree vs. non-degree data over someones career

[smoky quest]

And the local vs global is not a good discriminant either

[delicate bane]

im sure at a certain inflection point it wont matter but curious as to where that point on average is

[smoky quest]

It does matter the same way starting life with a 1 million $ on your account will benefit you comparing to starting with nothing on your account

[delicate bane]

thats true

that type of effect may be hard to measure; it would manifest in different ways such as engineers moving into the VC world earlier, etc.

[smoky quest]

yeah, you would get access to more difficult to reach opportunities with more responsibilities

[pastel thunder]

should i ask him "how much i am gonna get in -hand, considering you have listed $ sal" because they already messaged me first asking my resume

is SSH a skill, i have used it, should i put in on resume?

[smoky quest]

You can, but you have to be tactful about it.
Asking for the resume is just the first part to understand who you are and what you bring to the table

[vapid jay]

I am almost done with school and would be starting with college soon. I just did decent in all my subjects (physics, chemistry , math and English) Like not to good but neither too bad. Could have done better but I was a bit lazy and distracted. Now I am back to being serious. Deciding for college is kinda confusing. I have no computer science background but I do love physics and math. I have the option to go for computer science engineering but I see people around my age already knowing so much about all this stuff and all this intimidates and overwhelms me. It is not like I won't understand all this stuff but I feel so behind my peers and feel like they would be getting a head start in college which I won't? Final point being should I keep this window open as my career choice ahead?

[smoky quest]

no. ssh is a basic skill, like breathing or eating.
If you put that on your resume, it would signal that your general level is low since you are proud of basic things everyone else know about

[pastel thunder]

yeah exactly, and can you tell me what else to remove from this:

[smoky quest]

Is there a specific question?
If you are afraid of not knowing what you are getting into, then learn about CS, what is it about, the jobs, etc. We are lucky that a lot of the knowledge is available for free online 🙂

[smoky quest]

they look great!
Rules of thumb:

• Anything on your resume is fair game for questions
• It's generally assumed that what you list first is what you know best

[pastel thunder]

noted.
I preference SDE, ML
For ML,
I plan to learn AWS, restAPI
what else seems missing?

[smoky quest]

You may want to check out https://roadmap.sh/
It has a list of skills.
You could look into DBs, caches, proxies, event/message brokers, graphql, kubernetes

[pastel thunder]

thank you, noted.

[vapid jay]

you are right about that, I am just afraid of being left behind but that also acts as my motivation to keep on learning. Reading your response calmed me down. Thank you.

[smoky quest]

Colleges don't assume you know anything. They will start from scratch.
So while starting sooner may provide some advantage, it won't hurt yours in any way

[summer roost]

I don't think that's true. There are plenty of people with degrees making $75k or less, and plenty of people with degrees making $500k or more, so it definitely seems to be the case that salaries are (at least) bimodal

granted the long tail on the upper end of the salary distribution is very long, but there's quite a lot of software engineers making less than $75k.

[smoky quest]

the unit is in euros and targeting EU.

[summer roost]

hm. true.

[smoky quest]

I wasn't arguing againt bi/tri modal. I was arguing against the scales and numbers

[still condor]

Well that's a very loaded question

and "only 90 seconds to answer"? yikes

I would run away from any company like that

[left heath]

I'm learning python by myself and I need more practice and experience. Where can I get projects with a technical assignment to practice?

[smoky quest]

codingame.com, leetcode are some examples

[summer roost]

the length of time to answer probably reflects how in-depth an answer they're looking for. They'd probably be happy with an answer like "I use the Liskov Substitution Principle to decide whether something should be a subclass or use composition, and I use the Single Responsibility Principle to help decide what responsibilities each of my classes should (and more importantly, shouldn't) have. I find dependency inversion to be really helpful for testing." Or something like that, anyway.

[vapid jay]

could you give some advice on how I should proceed before i start college like what could i do if i have 1-1.5 months to spare before it🤔

[true harness]

i would recommend to try a bunch of things to get an idea of what you might like doing

[royal torrent]

will i get rich?

[smoky quest]

it depends on your benchmark, how good you are, your education, your country, how rich are your parents, how lucky you are, etc.

[smoky quest]

As mentioned by others, learn things and have fun. So learn about webapps and make somes, learn about games and make some, learn about ml/ai and make some, etc.

[royal torrent]

i think im benchmark is 0 on all of threm

[true harness]

no

what's with the deleting of messages

[spark cobalt]

You'll get out what you put in.

[drifting gull]

What libs and other langs do you have to learn if you wanna get into ML backend programming

[smoky quest]

A degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities.
For specific libraries and languages, you may want to check the resources listed in #data-science-and-ml

[vapid jay]

we dont use a central repo for managing backend code at work (the front end team does), when we want to make change we have to upload them as file attachments to jira. does any other company do this or is this just bad? ||it makes me kinda sad because it's my first tech job and i havent been able to do a single pull request because there are no pull requests||

[smoky quest]

Rather than giving my opinion, I would recommend to be curious. Ask the leads there why they are doing so, what they are trying to optimize for and what do they think in terms of pros/cons.
Given that other teams are using VCS, they are certainly aware of it and you would unlikely be the first one to ask

[vapid jay]

Can I be programmer with knowing only python?

[smoky quest]

python is just a tool, like a screw driver. The same way it takes more than knowing a screwdriver to build a space shuttle, it takes more than just a language to be a software engineer

[vapid jay]

Yes or No?

[summer roost]

there are very few software jobs that require you to only use one programming language. Almost all real world software is made up of pieces written in different languages, and most professional programmers are expected to be able to switch between languages to work on different components.

there are some jobs that use only Python, but they're a small minority.

[vapid jay]

Oh!

[smoky quest]

no

[vapid jay]

Why?

[smoky quest]

read my previous message

[true harness]

it just says "no"

[summer roost]

off-by-one error

[true harness]

at least you'll have a great story for job interviews

it actually would be a ~recursive_error~, too, because they'd ask "Why?" to the previous message

[delicate bane]

please lmk if you take recursives advice. i am also curious.

[sleek egret]

never heard of anyone doing that

well, now I have. but I don't think that counts.

[midnight shore]

Any idea if I am allowed to post my resume in this chat for feedback?

[pine sleet]

Sure can. Just be sure to anonymize it (if you want)

[midnight shore]

I've applied to 44 internship positions but haven't had an interview from any of them, I am starting to worry whether there's something wrong with my resume. Any feedback on my resume would be greatly appreciated.

[peak halo]

I'm curious about what you are curious about

[peak halo]

Is your gpa above 3? I would include it, if so. Also, your two "volunteer" items leave the reader wondering what those involve.

[delicate bane]

i am curious bc there are also...lets say..."outdated" practices (however, maybe not as bad as this example) at my company

[midnight shore]

I have got a 2.97 gpa, so really not worth putting it into my resume

[peak halo]

What about your in-major gpa?

[midnight shore]

yea that one is 3+

[peak halo]

You can use that. Just be transparent that it's your in-major gpa

[midnight shore]

aight, will add that into the resume, thank you.

[peak halo]

@midnight shore your resume looks good for a student though. Hope you get some calls pretty soon here.

Oh also, I don't get why the numbers are bold

[midnight shore]

Thank you. I have read somewhere that its good to make all the metrics bold.

[spark cobalt]

Metrics they likely mean meaningful ones that are representative of your capability.

For example, the ones indicating improved performance by 50%.

[midnight shore]

oh, so I should not highlight the numbers like 5 colleagues, 10-weeks, etc?

[spark cobalt]

Those wouldn't be numbers that pique the interests of those reading it, so no.

The more you emphasize the less anything gets emphasized. Use it for specific things you're very proud of and you think represent you the best.

[midnight shore]

Got it, will make those changes right away. Thank you.

[delicate bane]

you applied pretty recently? maybe the current market forces are a factor

also im sure theres a vast difference in competitiveness between remote vs. in-person/hybrid positions

these internships are all remote in canada?

[midnight shore]

I have been applying since January of this year, so far only got rejection emails. I have applied to both remote and in-person positions.

[delicate bane]

hmm. 44 still isnt that much in the grand scheme of things tbh

[spark cobalt]

You should increase the volume of internships you're applying to. Many people I know getting callbacks have been sending 10+ a day.

On another note, seems like SVB situation is resolved.

[midnight shore]

True. Since its my second internship I have been very selective but If I dont end up getting an internship for Summer, then I might have to become less selective and hopefully secure an internship for Fall

[spark cobalt]

Selective in what manner?

[delicate bane]

so do you see why i was saying 44 doesnt seem like much?

[midnight shore]

I haven't been applying to any random company position that pops up, I am trying to secure a position at one of the top companies. But after looking at those stats, I really think I gotta step up my game and apply to as many positions as I can.

[delicate bane]

that makes sense to get a good position at a top company if you can. just keep in mind everyone is trying to do the same. and youre also competing with grad students (which honestly many of them have a worse resume than yours but some also have work exp in software as well).

dont wanna discourage. just wanted to inform you about the competition.

[midnight shore]

oh no, thank you for those stats.

[delicate bane]

no probs. ill probably remove this here in a bit so i dont end up accidentally doxxing somehow

[vapid jay]

i see , alright thank you!

[white relic]

pumpkin spice app 😋

lol it's just the joke that came to mind

no idea what "fall apps" you mean tbh

ah

many probably would already accept applications now

Some selective programs might already be full even

Depends on the company. Stuff takes time.

Now is probably a good time to be looking.

[pastel thunder]

are these decent projects for ML jobs? how can i improve the explanation, and should i remove the last? i also think i havent used good names for them

[vapid jay]

@pastel thunderyou must be rich ey?

[near ocean]

Does anyone have experience with moving internationally while staying at the same position? How do I negotiate something like this?

[pastel thunder]

lmao, then why am i looking for job?

[near ocean]

Somewhat hypothetical but I might be moving from London to Munich, is brexit relevant in this discussion, do I take a paycut because of lower cost of living, etc

Usually people move from lower CoL to higher so this salary neg isnt that relevant

[buoyant seal]

half of my company workers went to travel everywhere in the world for certain reasons, with remaining working in same company.
Different workers went with different strategies

1. Some just continued to receive payment to same bank account back at home, and transfering money to their new location via bank transfer / or even crypt stuff
2. Some opened legal entities in new countries and remade their contract with company from this new legal entity (i went with this choice)
3. there are certain additional available variations

My company just encouraged us to move out of our... native country in the first place
Basically, we have offer written without consideration of taxes, and maximum amount of compensated taxes is agreed in advance
It was negotiated in advance that we can work in company as employee, and as individual enterpreneurs/legal entities.
So... we i just asked my Web developer head about wishing to relocate, went to another country, opened our individual enterpreneurship, remade contract, continued to work.
only thing was required from me, receiving verbal agreement from my department head and my assigned HR (about moving from working in office to working as legal entity in another country)

[near ocean]

Luckily the company has offices in germany, so i hope they'd be ok with me moving there
Im remote right now anyway so not a lot of our current workflow and collaboration would change

But also, i'd rather not take a paycut lmao, i want them bags 💸💸💸

[buoyant seal]

there is established more formal procedures to request relocation via company internal channels
it is assumed that we have two choices

1. relocating anywhere on our own and making contract as entrepreneurs
2. making formal request to company for being hired into another country office. (second choice probably more time consuming, and often can be having hidden requirements)

[near ocean]

Should I talk to HR first or ask my manager what they think before that?

[buoyant seal]

for example my request to Cyprus relocation was denied right away when i spoke to HR, because i did not meet salary / amount of work in company requirements

[near ocean]

Aha hey im from cyprus lol, i dont think you wanna go there 💀

Definitely not for SWE/IT, they pay like shit
My company has massive offices there partly because of that but also because its a tax haven

[buoyant seal]

anyway, personally in my company it is like

1. first always option to consult with my manager, they are like drinking buddies in my company at least (nothing will be really done all the time though), but can give some advices without having any formality
2. then communicate with HR about it (for formal request / checking requirements) , if all is good then
3. i communicate with my department head person
   having approved it is moved forward

But you know, it is all depending on how company regulates this process. Regardless how your company approaches this problem, HR should be there to communicate this issue though

[still condor]

Cyprus honestly sounds like a nice place. For some reason I've seen a lot of companies have offices there

[near ocean]

Alright thanks, i'll talk to my manager first
Thankfully I have 6 months to negotiate this or find a new job

[still condor]

(some reason probably having something to do with taxes)

[near ocean]

Its pretty, its warm, food is great, its a quality tourism destination
I wouldnt be so sure about living there long term
Theres a lot of IT HQs there because of taxes and cheap labour

ofc theres a lot of other issues, people dont like foreigners there, especially foreign investors (usually theyre russian and chinese), you might struggle with the language because even though its Greek, its not the greek you'll learn in a textbook

[still condor]

yeah I might have to consult with Zeus or something

[near ocean]

But hey, invest 3m euro or more and you get a passport! (EU passport too!!)

[still condor]

well idk where people wouldn't hate a young russian programmer, besides Serbia, Kazakhstan, and Georgia 🤷

(not that those are bad places)

[near ocean]

Its not that bad, im biased cause i grew up there, there are definitely worse places to be in the world

I recently saw a survey putting it at the bottom of most expensive places to buy housing in the EU

[buoyant seal]

@near remnant 👀 🎉 😛 too late. Congratulations

[near remnant]

🙌🙌 Thanks mate!

[near ocean]

Are you employed again my guy?

[near remnant]

I just got an offer, yeah.

[near ocean]

Very nice, congrats

[near remnant]

Thank you dude!

[true harness]

nice

[calm spire]

I want to relocate from putintry but since I'm not so good at programming and don't know any full stack, where can I search for actual vacancies for foreigners in Europe to understand what stack is mostly required? Or just go to linkedin?

[buoyant seal]

linkedin + indeed.com both are valid options

[calm spire]

indeed indeed, heard about it before, thanks!

[pastel thunder]

i just recieve applied and move forward email from them, but

[vapid jay]

Might want to go for a rare stack if your not a good programmer. Makes you more desirable for a specific company.

[near ocean]

Rare stack + bad ability = undesirable everywhere

Why would I hire a terrible APL guy over a terrible python guy, at least with python you'll have tons of resources to help them learn

[calm spire]

cobol?

[vapid jay]

Bad ability is always undesirable

[near ocean]

Picking a rare stack makes things worse

[buoyant seal]

that is why it is good idea to learn Java 😛 Java is popular and used everywhere.

[near ocean]

And tons of resources, quality resources too
Same with dotnet, python, js, etc

[vapid jay]

Because your boss made the decision to take an undesirable stack that nobody uses and now you need to hire someone that doesn't give a shit about a next step in his career and wants to dive in APL

[near ocean]

Do you know how much APL and derivatives take home?

Could I ask what your experience is and how come you've arrived at this opinion?

[vapid jay]

It's about finding an opportunity not about how much you take home

[near ocean]

Why do you think an opportunity in a rarer stack as a bad dev would be easier to get than a popular stack

[vapid jay]

Because you need to distinguish yourself if you live outside of Europe and want to work inside.

[near ocean]

How would a bad dev distinguish themselves in any stack

[buoyant seal]

And how dev would be trying to get with rare stack if there are just not enough jobs opened for this rarity 🙂
While popular stacks are sought all the time

[vapid jay]

You get it, it doesn't. So better go for a stack that's rare to at least distinguish yourself there.

[near ocean]

HOW would you distinguish yourself in a rare stack if you cant in a popular, easy stack that has great resources
Its not a hard question my guy

[leaden jasper]

If two candidates are equal and one is already familiar with a stack a company uses (likely a popular one), the company is probably going to go with the one already familiar with their stack

[vapid jay]

It's not about distinguishing yourself in A stack, it's about distinguishing yourself as a developer.

[leaden jasper]

Using a weird/obscure stack does not distinguish yourself in a way more likely to get you the job. It'll just make the recruiter go "huh, weird" and potentially move on

[near ocean]

What kind of experience do you have, what made you form this opinion, its only polite to share a bit of your background especially when youre offering unconventional advice

Theres even a pin about it
#career-advice message

[vapid jay]

I'm a IT recruiter, focussing on Python. From Senior to lead/architecture roles.

[near ocean]

Youre a recruiter, focusing on python, and your suggestion in a python server is to go learn something not as popular?

[vapid jay]

In this specific case I do yes

And I'm not here for business, just to help out and learn more.

[near ocean]

Hypothetically would you hire me if i showed up and my cv only listed, idk, clojurescript?
(and i was bad at it)

[true harness]

their point is that there is less competition in obscure stacks

[buoyant seal]

his point, there is less job openings as well.

[vapid jay]

The thing is, I see a lot of folks from outside the EU that would like to work here but even with 5 years of experience, companies are reluctant to hire them just because of the fact they need a workpermit. Companies rather hire someone from the EU that is more expensive, worse work ethics and in general worse in development

[calm spire]

well, if to compare with amount of people who know each lang it makes some sense

[vapid jay]

So yes, I would hire you if they request this for a job.

[near ocean]

Youre not getting a cobol job my guy, sorry

[long nacelle]

I should learn python

I should learn lua

Notyhp

[gritty rivet]

I'm not sure if this was answered already, but you (or your employer) definitely pay for AWS exams.

[dreamy spade]

Not looking good. A recruiter was kind enough to reply back to my email after asking him why I got rejected for an internship position.

It’s because I already graduated.

[hearty island]

a lot of internships only are looking for college students

also is linkedin down for anyone rn

[delicate bane]

works on mobile for me. havent checked web

[delicate bane]

not clojurescript 💀

[dreamy spade]

I have been applying for full-time positions and I suspect that applicants are being chosen over me because those applicants did internships during their education. I’ve been applying for internships as a graduate to improve my resume. I feel like I’m pretty much fucked just for graduating.

[delicate bane]

how far out has it been since youve graduated? some places might still accept you as an intern if its been <1 year

[dreamy spade]

I graduated in December 2022

[delicate bane]

yeah...thats def pushing it a bit

[true harness]

so you just need to show your skills in different ways

I have seen some companies have internships for people within 6 months of graduating, though they are pretty rare from what I understand

[frozen wing]

Hi,

I think I need more life advice than career advice but here I go XD, (although I feel uncomfortable sharing this in a public space)
so I started studying software engineering in 2016 (supposed to take 5 years -> 2021)
In 2018 I participated in the ISIC challenge - a challenge about detecting/classifying cancerous skin lesions using Convolutional Neural Networks -

I was really shocked at how much -at the time- new AI advances have the potential to help improve human health. That's why I decided to start a med school in parallel to my engineering studies (supposed to take 7 years 2019 -> 2026) in order to find opportunities to make engineering serve human health instead of simply making Mark Z. richer.

In 2021 I had an opportunity to get a master degree in France - it's what we call a double diploma where basically in a single year you get two diplomas from different schools in different countries - but I had to lose my med school year because I couldn't go back to my country to pass the exams due to covid restrictions

Last year I worked as a project owner for 3 months (from june 2022 to september 2022) in a multinational tech company but I had to stop because med school clinical rotations start this year (from 8 am to 12 pm). Also while working in this company I got CKA and CKS certified

Today all my friends are pretty well financially in their life and advancing, while I am still budgeting and trying to stretch some old crypto gains to survive for as long as possible. And I expect to finish my med studies in 2027 and I still have no visibility on how to proceed to make my vision come true. I have some ideas but very little time

So my questions dear strangers of Discord are:

1- Do you think I took too much risks?
2- If I was to abandon everything today did I shoot myself in the foot by letting 2 huge holes in my IT career ( june 2021 -> june 2022 and september 2022 -> today)

If this message isn't suited to this channel pls tell me I will delete it asap

[buoyant seal]

this channel is exactly for stuff like this 🙂

[dreamy spade]

Unfortunate. I’m seriously in some window timeframe to secure an intern position.

It’s like after graduation. I’m on a time limit to land an opportunity or I’m fucked

And I’m already struggling to find work. Everybody but tech companies are calling me back about my tech CV except tech companies. The irony.

[true harness]

why do you need an internship? if I had to guess, I would say most graduates don't have internships

[dreamy spade]

Well I explained earlier in my previous post.

[dreamy shadow]

Tech companies over hired during pandemic, they are just adjusting now. I would consider you a new grad, not sure if you should still be applying for internships.

[true harness]

calling you back about tech positions?

[dreamy spade]

No

[deft herald]

1. i don't really see much risk in what you have done so far; sounds like you're building up a very useful set of skills.

while I am still budgeting and trying to stretch some old crypto gains to survive for as long as possible.
These seem like good habits to establish regardless of your income

[deft herald]

Also, what is your ultimate goal with your med degree & software engineering degree?

[pastel thunder]

are these certificate on coursera enough and worth the time? or can recruiter ask for specific certfication that are offered only from AWS website.
I was thinking taking these + the basic cloud practitioner cert.

[buoyant seal]

What is your educational background? and your chosen job specialization?

[true harness]

being employed, even if not in a tech position, can be beneficial for the resume. plus you have some income

have you improved your resume since last time?

[pastel thunder]

i have exp in ML, so looking for ML-AWS certs, but SDE roles are also suitable

will recruiter under value them? @dreamy shadow

[buoyant seal]

do u have CS degree or studying it?

[dreamy shadow]

They're better than nothing, but it depends on your educational background.

[pastel thunder]

my minor is AI, no CS

[dreamy shadow]

What's your main degree in then? Undergrad only? Graduate degree?

[pastel thunder]

Mechanical undergrad

[dreamy shadow]

I would try to pursue a masters first (As this allows you to be better off in the long run), and only do bootcamps/cert if need be.

[pastel thunder]

getting a job isnt my problem, getting a good job is my problem. i see AWS listed everywhere

i will do MS after 1 year job

[dreamy shadow]

Uh, how many YoE do you have?

[pastel thunder]

0. currently but 1.6 with interships in CS/ML domain

[near ocean]

Internships kind of count as experience, dont they?

[dreamy shadow]

Depends on the company & hiring manager.

[pastel thunder]

they do if recruiter isnt trash

[frozen wing]

I would like to be in a position where I make tech product that have real impact on human health.

The genome revolution will change how we think about medicine and I would like to somehow be a part of it.

For example today when a bacteria is resistant to "standard" antibiotics we cultivate that bacteria (24 - 48 hours) and then try all the available antibiotics on this culture in order to find the right fit.

In the near future I believe that we will simply sequence the genome of that bacteria and then read the data and find what antibiotic it is weak to ( in a matter of minutes)

The genome sequencers (genome readers) are following a moore's law. And I would like to be positioned somewhere somehow on that market.

I would also like to develop tools tailored towards doctors needs in order to help them dedicate more time to interact with their patients and less time doing the other stuff (charting-putting lab orders etc)

[dreamy shadow]

AWS is just something you'll gain experience in as you go.

As for internships, again it depends on the hiring company & hiring manager. Often, internships are short and the intern doesn't do anything meaningful during the duration.

[near ocean]

Are you in the UK? Plenty of tech jobs in Cambridge/Oxford for this kind of thing
GSK, astrazeneca, oxford nanopore, a bajillion other startups

[pastel thunder]

so what should i do? to increase chance of getting "good job", learn something else(skill)

[edgy fjord]

Hi

I need some help, but I can't find the help channels

[dreamy shadow]

Just apply to jobs in the field you want to work in. Try to do relevant things in that position. You won't start off by getting a "good job" right off the bat.

[deft herald]

#❓｜how-to-get-help @edgy fjord

[pastel thunder]

ok thanks for the advice.

[sleek egret]

yar

[late steeple]

I really enjoy back-end work, Implementing software design patterns and monitoring the well being and cleanliness of a software code but I don't find myself in the webdev industry, I couldn't find a name for such career path so hopefully someone can tell me what it is called

Thanks :)

[sleek egret]

the career is called "software developer" or "programmer"

graduating to "software engineer" or "software architect" or something similar

a variety of other titles are also used

[late steeple]

Do software architect actually write code?
Someone suggested that they just "architect the software as what technologies to use and how to implement them"

[sleek egret]

I'd say that most do

feel free to disagree. in reality, the titles don't really mean much.

[true harness]

especially across companies

[late steeple]

Oh, Thank you guys!

[sleek egret]

don't sweat it man, most programmers are not really involved in "web" work. even at web companies.

and if they are, it's just to slap a rudimentary control/monitoring UI onto their system

[frozen wing]

Unfortunately no
I am currently in Morocco and have a thanks to my France master degree I am allowed to go back to the EU to look for a job if I ever wanna

[sleek egret]

If I were you, I'd seriously consider France or Netherlands or Germany before UK. The UK economy is not doing well. hasn't been for a decade. and is projected to fall even further behind the EU over the next decade.

that said, no one really knows what the future will bring

[near ocean]

I would advise the same 💀
But im not too sure on the state of biotech in continental EU

[zinc sierra]

@vapid jay are you in college

[vapid jay]

12th done

[sleek egret]

@vapid jay not having a degree will make things difficult. companies almost never hire "interns" that are not university students.

[zinc sierra]

on your college campus you can search for teams working on startups that are in need of programmers

[vapid jay]

startups?

[sleek egret]

startups are even less likely. "startup" doesn't mean "easier to get a job". think about it. they have less money.

[frozen wing]

Exactly Biotech seems more developed in UK than EU but there is less protection for workers in UK and life seems bleaker there

[zinc sierra]

startups are basically projects the team is too broke to afford and needs donations and a larger team to work on

[sleek egret]

when you say "12th done", what do you mean? education systems vary by region and nation.

[zinc sierra]

startups are the worst at first but a proper team and proper budget control can make you rise the ranks

[vapid jay]

ik but because of my lack of experience they might face difficulties na

[zinc sierra]

hes probably finished school and is planning to apply to a private university/community college. for that i recommend getting a scholarship

[sleek egret]

assuming they got financing, yes. but even with financing startups are, generally speaking, choosier about early employees

[vapid jay]

i dont have a degree, formal education done, age:18

[sleek egret]

the largest hirer of entry level programmers, by far, are large and established companies

[zinc sierra]

what about startups that require little budget and is just a small project? im sure they would love anybody interested

[vapid jay]

examples of any companies like these

[sleek egret]

that's a project, not a startup. a startup is a company that at least hopes to make money

[zinc sierra]

@vapid jay since you know some computer science i would say you have a background in computer theory too right? with that you can help plan and organize what needs computing

[sleek egret]

either way, let's not get off track

[vapid jay]

yea but i dont like to go to university and get a degree

[sleek egret]

ok, first off, you should seriously think about going to university. not having a university degree will make your life much more difficult if you want to pursue a career in software development.

[vapid jay]

i took harward cs50 course & read some books on programming

[zinc sierra]

that should be a goal to focus on right now. Get a gig on fiverr for coding experience. If you want to be more professional Upwork does the same thing as fiverr but for more advanced people

[sleek egret]

If you don't, you will simply have to apply for an "entry level" programming job across a lot of different companies. And by a "lot" I mean hundreds. Most will just toss your resume because of no degree. You won't know which until you try.

[zinc sierra]

a masters in computer science and associates/bachelors mathematics degree should be enough to land a stable job if you plan to use programming as a full time job

[sleek egret]

yes, but he doesn't have that so...

[zinc sierra]

hes working from the bottom up. he should first get an associates in computer science before actually getting a job

[vapid jay]

any nice sites to look for jobs except linked in

[zinc sierra]

just work some gigs on fiverr and upwork until you have enough money and experience to work

[sleek egret]

to increase your chances, you will need to demonstrate that you can work with a team and complete reasonably complex projects. luckily, there are tons of open-source projects you can volunteer for.

[deft herald]

Google job search. Individual companies' careers page

[vapid jay]

is this enough to get a small internship at a a startup company?

[zinc sierra]

i know a friend whos willing to pay for some UX and UI designs on his website. Along with backend coding too. But i dont think can advertise that here

[sleek egret]

in short, you will note that many entry level jobs will say something like "CS degree or equivalent experience". Since you don't have the CS degree, you need to build the "equivalent experience".

[rain walrus]

hi, i am in urgent need of finding some kind of bootcamp in india
could anyone help me in any way

[zinc sierra]

no not from what i know. you need to spend atleast a year of your life getting an associates degree for a successful internship

[zinc sierra]

freecodeCamp and Codeacadamy are good

[vapid jay]

can u say me how to volunteer for open source projects? i am new so idk 😅

[dreamy spade]

What is last time? Have we spoke before?

[deft herald]

Just FYI, you're not going to "get rich quick" here. If the urgency is needing to pay bills/make ends meet, I don't think this is the appropriate path for that

[zinc sierra]

just look through linkedin and github new projects im sure you’ll find people

[sleek egret]

just go to the project page (often on github), D/L the code, fix a bug, submit a fix, participate in the discussions

[zinc sierra]

what this said. you dont have you be designated to a singular team

[vapid jay]

@sleek egret @zinc sierra tysm for the info

[zinc sierra]

go to college, get an associates in cs, and get yourself an internship then thank me

[sleek egret]

lol

I would strongly suggest getting a full BS if you can.

[zinc sierra]

what i said could have just flown all over your head. i need to make sure you arent just being fed and shitting information. process our advice and use it to your advantage

[sleek egret]

pain is always fun

[zinc sierra]

suffering for victory

[delicate bane]

hmm hmm finops podcast i follow just released a job board for those with cloud skills.

peeked at it; seems to have devops, data eng/software, and systems jobs

[true harness]

yes, you've asked for help here before

[rain walrus]

i am studying online , but i need to move out and that's why i think offline bootcamp is the way to go

[coral vine]

Me too!

What I did during final semester is work on personal full stack web app on the side. Hard Dx

Then after graduating, was open source contributions. Super challenging Dx

Then worked on my resume, got lots of ideas from discord servers. Also, scary Dx

I applied a bunch and got a few interviews and now..

Practicing interviewing skills. Hard too Dx but everyone in the tech community has been very helpful 🥺🙏

[deft herald]

Ok. Keep in mind it's both a time and monetary investment. You have no guarantee of being hired (despite any other claims) with a good salary after the bootcamp. You do have a guarantee of spending lots of money however

[rain walrus]

i understand , although i want a good bootcamp but i understand getting hired at a good company is totally dependent on me(my skills/calibre) i love computer science , i study hard , i believe i have the potential its just that my family condition has made me to move out of the house and bootcamp seems a perfect excuse

[sleek egret]

best of luck, @coral vine

[dreamy spade]

Yes my resume improved significantly

[true harness]

you can send it for review again. if you're not getting interviews, your resume is still the issue

or it's that you're applying for internships when they don't want graduates

[coral vine]

Thanks! I graduated with an associates of science and some cert of software dev.

I’m still interviewing with the 2nd company. Everyone says: don’t get too hopeful and treat it as practice

But but but I really want in on that company Dx

They pay for continued education and I can use it to do WGU and get a bachelors of compsci and that would be the greatest thing. Also I really liked the company culture of work life balance.

Ugh, I hate that the opportunity presents itself and I’m so unprepared. But honestly, did my best :/ and … feeling hopeful xD facepalm some idealism is nice o.o

[spark cobalt]

Also, it depends. It's not just "non-tech" companies that have brilliant engineer teams. I know Walmart has done some really hard investment in their SWE department, lots of smart people there

[true harness]

they didn't mean for tech jobs

[spark cobalt]

Oh I thought they were applying to tech roles

[true harness]

why associates?

[delicate bane]

same for their data roles too

i have a friend who is a DS there

also this made me smile.

[coral vine]

Through the fire and flames - dragonforce

Requirement: descension into madness

[delicate bane]

anyway this is just to get at this particular point - in case many juniors/those still in school dont know, you dont have to fulfill every single job requirement before applying for a position

you can treat it as the company's "wishlist"

[spark cobalt]

^

I've filled 1/7 of the job description I have now, and that 1 was some behavioral thing

[coral vine]

I hope I have a cute enough smile too

[dreamy shadow]

[spark cobalt]

I got the moneypots

[coral vine]

Hopefully I’m not being invalidating of your hard efforts, just teasing

Moneypots? What’s that?

[spark cobalt]

Dimples :3

What's that

[coral vine]

Aw dang, those are auto-hires Dx

checks mirror

[spark cobalt]

Ic

[delicate bane]

i see a smile through those tears

[zinc sierra]

it looked like he wanted an internship quickly so i gave him the fastest answer. No degree would make him under-qualified and a bachelors is 4 years of education

[coral vine]

Oh yes! I do have a good smile. My friend says I always look happy. Which is strange because they say it while I’m feeling majorly depressed and I thought I was frowning.

But they see a smile. o.o

I think it’s like when you see a dog, lizard, turtle. They look like they are smiling.

• they are not smiling

[spark cobalt]

Most internship positions are for those in school, pursuing at least a bachelor's.

Once you're out of school, even with an Associates or not, you'd be disqualified for most internships.

[true harness]

why do they want an internship? the goal is to be qualified for a real job, not to get internships. a 4 year degree is how to do that. you'll even be more competitive for internships and entry level jobs with the 4 year degree

[dreamy spade]

I applied for 100+ tech roles. But the one time I just applied for a warehouse position, the company called me in less than an hour from the time I applied for it.

[true harness]

they have different qualifications

[spark cobalt]

You should send your resume again. I hope you've done some refinement on your projects

And let's not make it a 3 day endeavor for you to send a resume and spend more than 14 hours arguing

[true harness]

that doesn't really prove anything. a warehouse job pretty much just needs you to be able to lift things. intelligence is pretty optional

[spark cobalt]

That was a very hellish couple days in this channel

Otherwise, we have no context as to what companies are judging you on.

[dreamy spade]

I will redact on my project descriptions this time. Because you got so noisy that you decided to do some social engineering and found my GitHub from it and posted it publicly without checking to see if i was okay with that.

[true harness]

social engineering, aka google.com

[spark cobalt]

Well, how have your projects increased from last time?

[dreamy spade]

A company calling me for a warehouse position when I have a tech CV,

[sleek egret]

lol

[spark cobalt]

You applied for that warehouse position though

[dreamy spade]

A company wanted to interview me for an event planning internship when I had a tech CV. it's ironic.

[true harness]

yeah. you applied, that isn't surprising

[spark cobalt]

Okay this is just gonna be a repeat of that last 3 days we had. I'm out good luck Keezy

[sleek egret]

lifting things is hard

[true harness]

indeed

[dreamy spade]

But you see where I am going with this? Tech companies are not booking me for interviews when i have a tech CV but companies wanting to interview me that are non-tech roles when I have a tech CV.

[sleek egret]

soon we'll have robots doing it so those jobs will be gone too

[true harness]

but what does that prove? the only thing that matters for you getting a tech job is that you're getting rejected for tech jobs. not if you're being accepted for warehouse jobs

[sleek egret]

the warehouse called back in spite of your cv

or maybe the warehouse needs someone to make sure their inventory tracking system is working well in between lifting things

[spark cobalt]

It's like going to McDonalds with a resume, they don't give a shit about it.

[dreamy spade]

a Data Scientist told me that warehouse jobs were harder for him than doing his data science work. I just couldn't believe it.

[sleek egret]

or maybe they're hoping to promote you rapidly. you won't know until you talk to them.

[sleek egret]

all tech jobs are easy. you sit at a desk all day. that's the definition of easy.

[true harness]

probably they spent more time studying data science than in the gym

[spark cobalt]

My hardest job still working at Red Lobster lol, even if it's "less skilled"

[dreamy spade]

But obviously Data Science requires education and takes time to learn the fundamentals. That's why I couldn't believe what he was saying.

[sleek egret]

a buddy of mine is a purchasing manager... he gets up at 5am and does 2 hours in the gym every single day

[spark cobalt]

Nothing in SWE is gonna be the same feeling as soloing dishwashing on Mother's Day

[true harness]

lmao

[spark cobalt]

For 6 hours straight, no breaks

[sleek egret]

I might do 2 hours in the gym every few years

[sleek egret]

in fairness, we have machines actually washing the dishes these days

[spark cobalt]

It's usually machine assisted, not fully automated.

[sleek egret]

imagine having to wash dishes by hand for 8 hours back in ye olden days

or today too in poorer nations, I guess

[true harness]

we have a machine that rinses and sanitizes, but we still need to clean, soap, scrub, then put them back

[spark cobalt]

Yep

[sleek egret]

thousands of people were employed shoveling hard, compacted horse shit off the streets back in the day. for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. talk about backbreaking labor.

[spark cobalt]

[sleek egret]

in short: tech jobs are easy

[true harness]

it's easy to get a job in a warehouse because they're so hard. high turnover, low supply of workers that want to do it

[spark cobalt]

Definitely. So much flexibility, low intensity job, pay is good etc.

[sleek egret]

they'll even hire ex-cons for (some) warehouse jobs

[true harness]

plus the pay is shit

[sleek egret]

it's not complete shit. average in NY state for warehouse workers is about $18/hr

woops, $17.09/hr actually. and about $20/hr in NYC

[spark cobalt]

Pretty close to it

Physical stress does numbers to you. And generally also pushes you down hard enough to prevent you from learning some specialized skill on the side.

[true harness]

that's pretty good actually

[sleek egret]

all I'm saying is that there are worse jobs

[spark cobalt]

I guess

[inner wren]

Hey @dreamy spade!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[true harness]

either way, jobs in warehouses, fast food, etc don't have very high requirements in terms of workers. it's not surprising you got an interview

[dreamy spade]

Python bot won't let me post my resume.

[near ocean]

Post a screenshot

[zinc sierra]

when did a tech internship turn into working in a warehouse

[true harness]

screenshot

it was brought up

[dreamy spade]

My Resume

[delicate bane]

bruh you can tutor for better than that. promise.

[true harness]

well I wouldn't do that. I'm too frail

[delicate bane]

i still do tutoring occasionally mostly bc i still have some clients back from when i was working in grad school

[true harness]

could we get a better quality screenshot? can't read anything

[delicate bane]

but ive mostly given all of them to my cousin since he needs the money a lot more than i do. hes also a better teacher lol

[zinc sierra]

wallmart pay is about 17-19$ per hour

[dreamy spade]

I tried to zoom in but it will only make me screen shot half of the resume when I do that.

[true harness]

2 parts is fine. just want to be able to read it lol

[delicate bane]

highly recommend for students btw if youre good at school and teaching and stuff. flexible and easy work, especially online tutoring.

[zinc sierra]

and you could also charge a low fee

[dreamy spade]

My resume.

[delicate bane]

its all up to you. i tend to charge more for harder subjects

[true harness]

how did you find clients?

[delicate bane]

programming/cs topics def lets you charge more too lol

[zinc sierra]

I think Upwork has something for tutors

[smoky quest]

• [redacted]
• Avoid multiple column formats as it's not parsed well
• [redacted]
• The skills are typically ordered by decreasing order of proficiency. So in that sense, you are saying you know css best over everything else
• [redacted]

[delicate bane]

i partnered with a tutoring company and they did all the work of finding clients for me. they took a cut but it still was super convenient/i was still able to charge a decent price

[true harness]

but how did you find this company 👀

[delicate bane]

ill just DM you lol

jk you have to add me

[dreamy spade]

• Avoid multiple column formats as it's not parsed well

How do you know it's not parsed well?

[smoky quest]

I use these tools?

[true harness]

i would get rid of most if not all of your work experience and replace them with projects. one warehouse job might be ok to demonstrate soft skills, but 4 is a bit unnecessary imo

there seems to be a lot of whitespace in your second column. if you want to keep it, i would at least suggest cutting down on the whitespace to fit more stuff

[dreamy shadow]

It's well known ATS doesn't parse them well.

[dreamy spade]

I have tested my resume on ATS scanners. It scans my resume just fine.

[sleek egret]

May I make an observation and suggestion about the way you interact with people when asking questions?

[dreamy spade]

Go for it.

[dreamy spade]

i would get rid of most if not all of your work experience and replace them with projects. one warehouse job might be ok to demonstrate soft skills, but 4 is a bit unnecessary imo

Thanks for the feedback. I will definitely take this into consideration.

[near ocean]

Services like mytutor exist
I couldnt sign up, my uni's not in there 💀

[dreamy spade]

A criticism that I received on resume was that it's a red flag because I did not include the jobs that I did in the year 2015. What do you guys think about that?

[sleek egret]

Generally speaking, when you are asking a question, realize that you are asking others to put forth effort for you with no reward. Thus, it's best to not be contradictory and challenging after their response. Even if you're 100% sure they're wrong. Most of the time, if you just feel their answer is incomplete or missing your context, you want to try to gently ask for clarification, explanation or just provide more info and then ask if that changes anything.

If you do this, you're far more likely to both get better and more responses (from others). In addition, you leave a better impression which you may be able to leverage in the future.

there is a psychological dynamic where if you ask for advice and accept it humbly, the advisor will view you more favorably and is more inclined to want to help you even more. but if you challenge their advice, they are likely to feel betrayed (in a way). you want to try to avoid the latter as much as possible.

[dreamy spade]

I'll keep this in mind. Thanks.

[sleek egret]

de nada. and it's often just a matter of phrasing. remember, I'm just talking about how others perceive you, not about how you're thinking 🙂

[coral vine]

I found a tutor company by accident once, awhile back

There was a math tutor job that I applied to on indeed

Turns out the owner lived in same city as me and wanted me to tutor his girl for math. Then I got referral to another guys boy

I noticed he learns math fast so I asked if they want to learn programming. And they were like sure, and wanted to add their girl in too. So I tutored 2 kids some basic programming. It was fun and I’d drive to their house to help them.

[dreamy spade]

I completely underestimated the job market for tech. I thought applying for a job in tech would have the same difficulty level as applying for a warehouse job. It's a completely different ball game and it's exponentially much more difficult.

[delicate bane]

exponentially is correct.

[delicate bane]

i think more kiddos should be taught programming but what do i know

[sleek egret]

are we sure it's not quadratic?

[coral vine]

This is exactly what I wrote in this channel last week. I thought it was going to be like applying to min wage job because that’s all I’ve ever known

[dreamy spade]

I definitely see why losing a tech job is far more impactful to your life than losing a warehouse job because you can get another warehouse job in 2 days maximum.

[sleek egret]

I take it you've never been through a severe recession

[dreamy spade]

You really think that's the reason some graduates like me are struggling to find work in tech? Because I still see tech job openings.

[true harness]

it's a bit millennial to blame the problem on the economic situation rather than it being a skill issue

[sleek egret]

The layoffs that have been happening are chump change. Back in the late 80's recession or the dot-com crash recession, millions of software developers got laid off.

[delicate bane]

it may very well be esp when compared to warehouse jobs where there is an extremely high demand

[sleek egret]

all in the span of six months. finding a job was, let us say, sorta challenging.

[true harness]

idt it's very useful to talk about what kind of growth it is lol. it's just "harder". not like there's some scale of job difficulty

[sleek egret]

the covid recession was fairly mild for tech

[delicate bane]

i dont think so either but i suspect rmah secretly likes math

[true harness]

it can't be. "math" and "man" share too many letters

[cloud mesa]

hi

[sleek egret]

<voice style="malibu-stacey">math is hard... let's go shopping!</voice>

[smoky quest]

higher level of skills does imply a more difficult interview

[dreamy shadow]

I'm convinced that rmah's every 5th sentence is sarcastic at this point.

[sleek egret]

lol, only 1 in 5? I'm losing my touch

[dreamy spade]

If someone can't get interviews, is it really a skill issue? Or a CV issue?

[true harness]

both. if you don't have the skills, you shouldn't lie on your CV. if your CV is bad, you won't get interviews

[delicate bane]

sg you started grad school yet? hows that going? when are we switching jobs again

[dreamy shadow]

No phone screen = Bad resume, no in person /zoom interview = bad phone screen, no offer = bad interview/not a fit.

[smoky quest]

it could be either. Or that they aren't a good fit despite having skills and a good resume

[dreamy spade]

No phone screen = Bad resume,

I didn't get this part.

[true harness]

a phone screen is a preliminary screen by an HR person to make sure you're real and have basic soft skills. to get one you typically pass a rudimentary review by a hiring manager

[dreamy shadow]

I still have 5 months of freedom. Also, check #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare on how they managed to go from bad to worse on fixing my dependencies.

[dreamy spade]

HR people view resumes with a mobile device? 🤨

[true harness]

well the name "phone screen" comes from a phone call (that screens applicants). presumably they can review your resume on whatever device can view PDFs

[sleek egret]

in softer job markets like today, arbitrary filters are often applied by hiring companies. a common one is "must have a tech related university degree". if you don't, you get deep sixed regardless of anything else. it's not fair but it is what it is.

the problem is that in softer job markets, there is a huge increase in applicants for every opening. it can go to literally hundreds. it's literally impossible for the company to give enough time for each candidate. thus the filters.

[dreamy spade]

Yeah. It's sad that applicants have to format their resume in a way where it's ATS friendly and having to use keywords in their resume to correspond with the ATS.

[smoky quest]

formatting is fine. But the keywords is just a myth as it's just a fancy spreadsheet.

[sleek egret]

as always, direct referrals are the key. it lets you skip the line, so to speak.

[dreamy shadow]

In the past, even without ATS, your resume needed to be formatted clear enough to not be tossed by the manual reading.

[true harness]

so no wacky formatting, good bullet points, etc

[sleek egret]

it's hard for younger folks who've been told their whole lives that they're special and unique. sadly, in the real world, few will be seen that way.

[delicate bane]

tricks on them. i know im not special nor unique

[hearty island]

same

[dreamy spade]

DId you get a tech job?

[coral vine]

I wear a sock onesie

[coral vine]

No I’m in limbo atm. I worked as qa analyst at a company that was basically hiring anyone in the past though. I think that was somewhat helpful for resume

[dreamy spade]

Did you add any qa analyst projects to your resume?

[coral vine]

Oh I posted my resume in this channel awhile back. I just wrote what I did at that company in a fancy way o.o

But really, work just felt like sending emails, chatting, hanging around, messing around, and video meetings

Let me try to find it for you. One sec

[spark cobalt]

Thank you.

[coral vine]

#career-advice message I used this one. Sorry for the confusion. Pretzel is my other discord account

[trim jasper]

Hello

[regal obsidian]

Hello

How are you?

[dreamy spade]

Do QA jobs consist of writing test cases on Python?

[true harness]

ones that use python, sure. a job i'm interviewing for uses java and selenium

[deft herald]

I'm going to guess that not every single QA job out there does this

[spark cobalt]

Is there a difference between QA and Test Dev then

[deft herald]

Great question

[true harness]

no idea ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[deft herald]

I even fit in one of those categories and i have no idea

[near ocean]

Our QA team also does manual testing

[true harness]

yeah. the position i applied for would be some manual and some automated

[spark cobalt]

I see

[ivory sluice]

the images aren't contributing anything

i have news: as one can tell from my nickname i am now promoted to manager mina and my renegotiated raise is finalized for effective March 1

[buoyant seal]

whom you worked as before being a manager? or mina is some kind of manager rank?

[ivory sluice]

previous title was "supervisor" and the thing i supervised is different from what i now manage

man that's a lot of edits lol

[buoyant seal]

what is difference out of curiosity

[ivory sluice]

btwn supervisor and manager? typically manager is higher up

[buoyant seal]

bigger scope then? more people/teams are supervised?