career-advice

[pastel thunder]

i also apply for ones that say 1+ year exp, or 2 years

i consider my internship exp as 1 year

[white relic]

sure, no harm trying

[pastel thunder]

and it would be unrealistic to apply at 4 or 5+ exp right?

[white relic]

yes

note I don't really know what "Bachelors of Technology (M.E. + Robotics & A.I)" really means

[obsidian acorn]

What University is that from?

[white relic]

in the states that probably wouldn't be considered the equivalent of a B.S.

[pastel thunder]

major: mechanical engineering
minor: robotics and artificial intelligence

[obsidian acorn]

you can take a look at the curriculum to see what it covers

[white relic]

don't abbreviate mechanical engineering

[pastel thunder]

BE and B of tech is synonymous

[white relic]

I would write something like "Bachelors of Technology in Mechanical Engineering (minor: Robotics & AI)"

[pastel thunder]

indian univ

[white relic]

that still doesn't mean anything in particular to me

[tawdry storm]

I get 0.2 calls every 10 apps. 1 is good.

[pastel thunder]

i see, but as a fresher i am slimming my chances as SDE

[white relic]

I mean, it is your degree though

[pastel thunder]

when i appply at 100 score might be low, so idk

[white relic]

muddying the water (i.e. making it hard to tell what your degree is in by mixing up your major and minor so it looks like a single thing) isn't likely to help you either

[pastel thunder]

also i took many course form CS branch should i add them too

[white relic]

if I were reading the resume, I wouldn't care to read about the CS classes you took, I'd assume the minor covers the basics.

And if I were concerned about the coverage that would be something to discuss in the interview.

[pastel thunder]

ok, thank you for your time, i will edit my resume now

[gaunt wren]

my problem is the maths

[sleek egret]

your problem? do you mean you find the maths classes most challenging?

or do you mean that they're not being offered? or that you don't have the time slots to complete enough?

[graceful mason]

It'll vary, but in my experience:
contract, NDA (may be part of contract), conflict of interest form, and beneficiary form
If there's any level of security clearance add that too

[delicate bane]

a good amount

[late terrace]

im sure someone has asked at some point but is it possible to find a job without a degree even though you have certifications and know what ur doing

[peak halo]

it's possible, but less likely. here's a pinned comment about that: #career-advice message

[late terrace]

thanks

[delicate bane]

today my friends and i talked about how the market seems to be looking for more t-shaped individuals going forward; broad skills up and down the stack with at least one area where depth matters. thoughts?

[magic crane]

Hi everyone i just wanna ask if i wanna be a BackEnd dev should i create portfolio and projects? or i just attach my github to my resume/cv

[true harness]

well if you attach your github without a portfolio, what's the point. your resume is about demonstrating to the employer that you have the skills to do the job. projects are a way to do that

[coral vine]

Torture

How does one sell the pen?

The pen being an aspiring software engineer in an interview within the next 3 days?

I did my first mock interview today with a buddy who has 50x more practice than me today andddd already did internships 😞 curls into a ball

[wise vortex]

gotta first mop before you get to the top?

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. When you get invitation to job interview with 2-3x from your current salary, it is very hard to reject :/
I need to repeat many times, that current job is better pursued until at least its contract end, because
a) I have a contract with exact time of end
2) yes, current job is not paid well, but the experience is in most relevant things to my career goals and after it i will be able to get those 2-3x jobs with very high chance.

Ergh, but 3x times money from current salary is 3x times money. Quite hard to argue with it :/
I need to tell myself.... do i really make the right choice in rejecting pursuing this salary for now? i hope i do.

[smoky quest]

It has only been the case for decades? What's new about it?

[smoky quest]

If it's an interview, then there is nothing to worry about. Let's cross that bridge once you get an offer

[buoyant seal]

good point 😁

[robust gale]

Fwiw I took a job on the basis of money alone and it was a very bad decision.

[inner tartan]

I had the opposite experience, money is nice 😂

tbh, it's my primary driver decision wise now

There are other reasons to turn jobs down, I turned down a few because of major red flags in the interview process, but assuming there's no huge glaring red flags, I want the most money for my time 🤷

[near ocean]

I agree, pay is the primary motivator
If i was offered 3x right now i would take it almost instantly

[white relic]

depends on if they wanted me to move to California or not

[inner tartan]

on 3x the typical software engineer pay you could go out there for like 3 years and then not work for like the next 10, maybe ever if investments go well

[white relic]

yeah but it's worth a lot to me not to have to live in california

[robust gale]

What’s the typical pay in your mind?

[inner tartan]

Last I checked levels.FYI said £100k/yr

[white relic]

that seems high for UK and low for US

[robust gale]

Ok so A) that’s not typical I don’t think, B) you will definitely have to keep working after 3 years on 300k 😂

Remember in UK your basic tax asymptotically approaches 50% the further above 100k you go

[inner tartan]

[robust gale]

Sure - which companies are they surveying though

[inner tartan]

Any AFAIK, but if certain companies are offering more, why not take it?

[white relic]

levels.fyi is often noted as being unrealistically high

[robust gale]

"Any" is a totally nonsensical answer.

[inner tartan]

I'm fairly active on the job market, 75k+ is easily obtainable for someone with experience

[white relic]

just because some developer somewhere is getting 240k/yr doesn't mean that you could get that if you switched jobs right now

[inner tartan]

Agree, that's startup founder territory

[robust gale]

wat

Gzuz you are not informed at all hahaha. Startup founders do not get paid 240k.

[white relic]

startup territory is more like "you can get to work right? we'll pay you in equity"

[inner tartan]

I didn't say that they did, levels.FYI is TC, not salary

[robust gale]

And equity is totally worthless in private companies

[inner tartan]

So to be clearer, its successful startup territory

[robust gale]

I.e. not startup territory

[white relic]

fr though startups are all over the place

[inner tartan]

I said startup founder territory

[robust gale]

You said "successful startup territory"

[inner tartan]

...

[white relic]

success for a startup usually means getting bought out by Google or somebody

[robust gale]

Ergo, not startup territory. A successful startup is no longer a startup. It is either acquired or IPO'd, which happens long after startup.

[inner tartan]

It's obvious what I meant at this point - you seem to just want to have a pointless debate about symantics

[robust gale]

It's just "a company". You're saying "people with equity in successful companies, or entrepreneurs who successfully exit, earn 240k".

Your argument for salaries is predicated on Levels.fyi info, which is weighted heavily on salaries from big tech companies like AMZN, MSFT, GOOG, PLTR.

[inner tartan]

Yes, I am saying that, so I wasn't wrong, just questionably could have phrased it better

[robust gale]

BBG, FB, etc.

The majority of their "numbers" come from unusually high earners

[covert vector]

Which career choice is better (higher paying) computer scientist or software engineer

[robust gale]

It's the same thing. Software engineer / developer / code monkey / computer scientist / the difference is very hard to quantify. The industry isn't regulated so titles are meaningless

[near ocean]

Mid 6 figures is 500k, where do you work to make that

[white relic]

very few people actually have the title "computer scientist"

[robust gale]

I work for a hedge fund.

[near ocean]

Theres a hedge fund in london that pays that for software people?

[robust gale]

The actual mid 6 figures was from a startup that got acquired - I was employee nr 7. I am not actually on 500k now, a bit below.

[white relic]

technically mid 6 figures on a log scale is like 320k 🤓

[covert vector]

True

[robust gale]

My company pays near that for graduates in NYC.

[near ocean]

US tech salaries and UK tech salaries are not comparable

[robust gale]

Sooo yeah. I'm on a lower end for my seniority. They were negotiating a GBP750k salary for a guy the other day.

[inner tartan]

All I gotta say really is I am glad I don't listen to this stuff for career advice, my salary would be vastly lower if I ignored levels.fyi and listened to you guys instead 😂

[robust gale]

Water is wet.

[inner tartan]

Might help, I pulled up my spreadsheet from when I was job hunting late 2022 and went active on linkedin. The salaries were:

85k+, 100k+, 50-75k + 50% of salary in stock options, Up to 85k, up to 60k, 92k, Up to 100k, up to 75k, 80-85k, up to 50k, 85k+, 60-80k, up to 85k, 85k+, 85k+ and 120k, all GBP. Along with of course 7 that didn't state salary.

[robust gale]

Your median looks below 95k

[inner tartan]

yea, I kinda attributed that to my linkedin being a bit crap

[white relic]

your spreadsheet appears to agree with the consensus here, and not with levels.fyi

[true harness]

do you mean doing computer science research?

[dreamy shadow]

When chatgpt shows up in a corporate email, it has gotten too popular

[near ocean]

What advice here did you see that was bad?

[inner tartan]

that levels.fyi is unrealistically high, but imo there are plenty of job options available in those brackets.

[dreamy shadow]

They are unrealistically high because FAANG company jobs make up a small % of the workforce/available jobs. The original point is for people not to stress if they aren't making the same as levels.fyi

[inner tartan]

No point in aiming low, aim high and see where you land, imo

[near ocean]

No one suggested people should aim low though

[wide barn]

I know you're all Pythonists, but you've been helpful before.

I'm currently teaching myself Python via online selfstudy, but the education I'm seeking this coming summer is using either C# or Java (depending on school) for programming language... so all things considered I think I'll pivot away from Python to better prepare myself.

Which language do you feel is the best to learn in a school environment and which do you feel has the best selfstudy courses?

(this will help me shape decision for the school and what I should study)

[near ocean]

In fact the person that thumbs upped your comment about bad advice said themselves that they chased salary and regretted it

[dreamy shadow]

You can learn Java or C#. But at the core, you need to learn the basics of CS. Languages themselves are just tools.

[wide barn]

I 100% understand that.. but I'd like to make my new life as less of a hassle as possible (been quite a few years since I was last in school) so felt I'd make it easier for myself if I knew the language they were teaching

[dreamy shadow]

Then see which one is used more often in your course.

[white relic]

C# people will be mad at me for saying this but it really is just Microsoft Java at the end of the day. The differences are pretty immaterial from a learning standpoint

[wide barn]

the language depends on the school (of which there are 2).. they have same travel time etc, so the only real difference iswhatthey'reteaching.

edit: space bar died :S

[buoyant seal]

I would say Java is more job useful language.
Java is good for backend, desktop and mobile development. And it works great on any OS, Linux including.
Very big amount of jobs and devs in it.
Java has certainly long long future as it is already, or in its successors Kotlin smth.

C# is certainly very pleasant language, but too tied to Microsoft Windows and more limited in its applications :/ And its Linux support straight sucks. C# has no future as it is now.
C# is good only for Windows Desktop / Unity gaming at the moment
. Net Core stuff is kind of too small in its ecosystem

[dreamy shadow]

I learned Java for what it's worth in the 1st year cs courses I took.

[wide barn]

would it be bad to learn 2 languages at the same time (as a novice)? Let's say I continue my Python selfstudy, but add C#/Java on top of it? I have free time, but not sure if it would confuse me more than it would help me

[summer roost]

All those "up to" seem quite weird to me. It's so strange when a company advertises "we will pay you strictly less than 85,001"

[inner tartan]

I agree, there's also lots of +'s in there too, like 85k is the minimum. no doubt it's a haggling thing.

[dreamy shadow]

Up to is just to get you interested lol. It's like fast food restaurants that advertise $15, but has "up to" in small print.

[inner tartan]

Although, I applied at an up to...and got the up to 💪

[dreamy shadow]

BTW the range they advertise vs actual range the job band is is often not the same

[buoyant seal]

Hard to say.. may be 2 languages is not a lot? mind you though, if u will not practice one of them for long enough time, u will forget quite quickly it if your knowledge is not very good and practiced in the first place. If you will be overwhelmed with learning other stuff, again your knowledge can suffer due to insufficient spent time in it.

I would say, best to have pet projects with constant available practice in both languages, if you want to continue remembering and learning them both.
But as for me, i chose to learn one language first, before switching to others. Going throughly with each language before being confident i can switch to next one. (Learning third language at a serious level now)
University languages i long forgot though, due to insufficient practice / insufficient learnt level / lack of practice

[summer roost]

Exactly why I find it weird. That's not a tactic I associate with knowledge work in our industry

[inner tartan]

I also found from the interviews I've done, usually they ask your salary expectation pretty early on, so if you apply for an up to 85k and then say I expect my salary to be 85k... They can't really haggle down too much

[dreamy shadow]

Well, if it's effective at entry level jobs, it'll show up at professional level jobs too. Capitalism

They ask salary to weed out unrealistically candidates. New grad asking for 200k, etc.

At the office so early not all the lights are even on.

[near ocean]

Apparently not unrealistic, someone mentioned mid 6 figures for new grads

I am disinclined to believe that tbh

[robust gale]

I didn't say that was realistic, I just said it was not unheard of.

[true harness]

I'm sure it's pretty reasonable for like, quants

[dreamy shadow]

The thing about here is you don't hear about the 9 other new grad offered below 100k. Only the 1

[near ocean]

In nyc sure, in london?

[robust gale]

Not just 6 figures in NYC - 450k.

A quarter of that is a big discount - bigger than usual for the US / UK discrepancy.

And no - not your run of the mill graduate with a 2.1 from Warwick.

[dreamy shadow]

Lol

[summer roost]

Even in NYC, that's extremely high. $200k for entry level for a tech company in NYC is possible, but $500k would be incredibly rare to the point of statistical insignificance

[robust gale]

Absolutely right.

[inner tartan]

I do actually have a career question though 😂

Does anyone have any experience with a non-35+ hour type work? How did you achieve it? I'm at the point in life where I'd be quite happy to sacrifice a little money for getting some time back. The last company I was at I managed to get them to pro-rata me down to a 4 day work week, but this kind of stuff seems very hard to come by.

[robust gale]

Non 35? I'm on 70 a week...

[inner tartan]

USA entered the chat? Here in the UK a 40 hour work week is the norm

[dreamy shadow]

So is in the US lol

[robust gale]

I'm LDN based. I work for a US based company.

[white relic]

40 is normal in the US. 70 is something you see in startup culture and other very intense or just toxic environments

[delicate bane]

4 day work week? jealous https://www.npr.org/2023/02/21/1158507132/uk-study-companies-four-day-workweek

[true harness]

i know of a few places that do 4 days, but 10hr/day, so it evens out. the benefit is less travel overhead, and other related overhead things

[delicate bane]

Dozens of U.K. companies will keep the 4-day workweek after a pilot program ends

[white relic]

Dozens

[dreamy shadow]

Out of thousands lol

[summer roost]

That seems to be the trick for getting a high salary in London.

[inner tartan]

In my case, I just asked that my salary be cut by a fifth and I'd work one less day. The company eventually agreed

But I lost that perk when I switched job

[buoyant seal]

Now, that is useful 🤠

[inner tartan]

Was definitely nice while it lasted 😂

[delicate bane]

greater than none

[coral oak]

Hello everyone, This is Shahid Khan, I'm student of Computer Science I have experience in web scraping, MERN Stack, and Junior Data Scientist, If anyone have work I will do with you. feel free to dm me you I will try my best to deliver best work

[fiery venture]

i wanna be a software developer in python or something, but i also want a great salary. programming in general i find really interesting and fun, how much would my salary be and if there is anything similar to that that has higher salary lmk 😁

[covert vector]

Nah I just want to know which degree is better

Like even thought they are the same thing which degree is better to get

Cuz u can get a degree in comp sci or In soft eng

[white relic]

Whatever is offered by the university you want to go to and you find has the more interesting course schedule.
Computer science programs are common. SE programs are less so

There will not be a huge difference in opportunity between them.

[covert vector]

My uni offers both

the grades to get in are different however

u need much higher grades to get into SE for some reason

[fiery venture]

i wanna be a software developer in python or something, but i also want a great salary. programming in general i find really interesting and fun, how much would my salary be and if there is anything similar to that that has higher salary lmk 😁

[true harness]

probably due to higher competition

[true harness]

salary depends on location. look up on linkedin or glassdoor for your specific location

[covert vector]

Ye for sure it’s the name that gives it away. People want to have an engineer title with the ring and everything

People see the title engineer and immediately apply 😂

The thing about soft Eng is that ur on the faculty of engineering so you do lots of engineering things like circuits and physics

[white relic]

I mean, that sounds more interesting to me, but I'm biased 😛

[covert vector]

Yeah for me I might go into compsci cuz I’m trash at physics

It’s more theoretical I think and there’s more math which I enjoy

[fiery venture]

i I looked at some and it is around 90k=150k is that nice or are there better opportunities in other countries?

[true harness]

i'm assuming you're in the US?

[fiery venture]

Wait no my vpn lol.

[true harness]

the US tends to have very high salaries for people in tech

[fiery venture]

I'm actually from Iceland. lmao

tbh, might move into the UK when I get my degree and apply for like in the US or something.

[sleek egret]

it's difficult to work directly for a company in the US from overseas

the legal paperwork for the company increases. this is why so many go through intermediary companies when hiring foreigners

not out of the question, just more difficult. just an FYI

[undone lantern]

chatgpt replacing ppl

should i continue studying?

[near ocean]

No, give up everything

[buoyant seal]

if you believe it will replace, don't continue 🙂
if you don't believe, then continue

[undone lantern]

um true

[near ocean]

Whats the alternative?

[undone lantern]

what does alternative means?

[undone lantern]

hm u r definitely a robot

i wont trust u

[white relic]

what will you do instead?

[near ocean]

What would you do if you stopped studying

[white relic]

give up on CS, become footballer

[undone lantern]

hm ill become a robot

true i still have to studying

[delicate bane]

i love that every other message here is about how ai will take programmer jobs. its like, bruh, if anything programmer jobs would be the last to go

[near ocean]

Maybe its time we start encouraging people to follow their gut and quit SWE, whats the point if AI will keep getting better and better /s

Momma always said your first instincts are always right

[dreamy shadow]

Force them to take a CS course on AI first.

[spark cobalt]

Less competition for me

[dreamy shadow]

No, tell them to quit data science.

[covert vector]

Time to become pat Mahomes

[near ocean]

No offense to anyone but i doubt people swayed by rumours of chatgpt would ever be competition for anyone

[spark cobalt]

Everyone has potential, many just don't meet it for various reasons

Fear being a valid one.

[covert vector]

The problem with programming jobs is that there are so many people who could do the same thing. It’s easily replaceable. You can literally learn to code alone without any degree and get a job at google. It’s such a tough field so much competition not only between people of the same degree but people from other faculties as well

Like people from liberal arts could become software engineers. There’s a program called software engineering in the arts faculty at my uni

[near ocean]

Self learning is not a viable strategy and would not be recommended

[covert vector]

True but people do it.
Not only to mention that some people crack a job at google with only a college degree

Obviously those people are really smart

[near ocean]

People like that usually know exactly what they want and how to get it and arent put off by AI FUD though
I wouldnt exactly say theyre the average folk

[delicate bane]

bruh you would be lucky if you can get a math course from them. jk

[spark cobalt]

I thought this was normal

[delicate bane]

execs make business decisions using their gut so...

[covert vector]

True. But like I said coding is not like learning max well equations

Not everyone can learn maxwell’s equations. It’s only one field: the field of physics and electrical engineering

[spark cobalt]

It's just the economics of it all. Employers need reliable risk mitigation, and a degree just happens to be that.

[covert vector]

And not everyone can learn about quantum physics 😂 that’s reserved to the physicists

[spark cobalt]

What...

[covert vector]

Imo that’s the problem I see with coding. So many fields do it and it’s very competitive

[leaden jasper]

So many fields need software and programmers, there's also more availability for jobs compared to some other nicher fields and degrees

[spark cobalt]

There's cross sections of every industry and technology?

[covert vector]

Quantum physics, quantum electrodynamics, thermodynamics, and all these physics are for engineers

Engineers and physicists are the only ones that do that

Tough courses nonetheless. Very very tough.

[leaden jasper]

Do you think that engineers are like a special breed of people? Engineers are just people who have learned engineering... Like programmers are people who have learned to code and program

[covert vector]

No

[buoyant seal]

That is certainly not true.
To become a software developer, u need to learn a lot. And u need soft skill of solving tech related problems.
That alone weeds out more than 99/100 people.

And developer skills can pretty much being on different levels of 10 times several times even among established developers.
Very small amount of developers cares to educate themselves and finding path to educational direction in general.

Basically... I know there are many awesome developers better than I am. I need to jump many times more above my level to reach them.
And at the same it is easy to see gap between myself and many developers staying behind.

[covert vector]

Well I’m just worried about if I go into this field that there will be hundreds of thousands that could do what I learnt

[spark cobalt]

Well there are already.

[covert vector]

Yes of course

[buoyant seal]

I saw statistics how many developers were made in company which decided to educate its own tech support, already tech inclined people

Only around 20 out of 550+ became developers after internal training

[delicate bane]

speaking of fear/uncertainty/doubt...

[covert vector]

I’m just worried about the competition. I’m not the smartest guy, I’m certainly not the best at what I do and i know that there are millions that are better than me so I don’t want to go into a field and end up not being able to find a job

[delicate bane]

obv linkedin data has a certain type of bias so keep that in mind, folks

[spark cobalt]

Be a competitive candidate then. There's many set ways to make yourself a competitive candidate that many others aren't doing.

[covert vector]

Everyone does leetcode 😂

[buoyant seal]

Finish university, get lucky with Dev job, grab experience. Read at least one programming book per one-two months, and do per projects. U will be already ahead of 90% other developers just because u read stuff

[leaden jasper]

There will be competition in any field. The benefit of programming is that it's used in almost every field so there are a lot of opportunities. It also has the benefit of a lot of easily accessible resources available for people to get the edge they need. The difference really will lie between people and the effort they want to put in.

For instance in other engineering fields, a lot of these resources are barred behind university or networking contacts. There aren't really alternatives there.

[covert vector]

Grinding algorithms and stuff. I’m 18 rn. I learnt python at 12 but superficially. I was on and off with programming and I know the basics the best thing I’ve built is a calculator. It’s horrible 🤣

[spark cobalt]

You should go to college then if you're not already in. Pretty huge in terms of being competitive

[covert vector]

I am j. Colllege next year is uni

[delicate bane]

i cant imagine being in a traditional eng role

[spark cobalt]

Oftentimes you just need to be in the environment where everyone's gunning for the same thing to stay motivated.

[buoyant seal]

Don't learn just algorithms
There are more topics to learn, and algorithms only one out of them 🙂
#web-development message

[spark cobalt]

Aim to build what you wanna build or what fascinated you to do coding to begin with at such a young age.

[buoyant seal]

Aye, captain
Practice matters as much as theory
Pet projects for the win ☺️

[covert vector]

My cousin is a programmer he got me into it. But then I was so focused on getting good grades I had no time to program.

[spark cobalt]

Now you get to (hopefully) go to a good uni of really smart students 🙂

[leaden jasper]

A lot of very successful people don't touch coding at all until college/uni. You'll be fine. Good grades are important

[buoyant seal]

U already have huge advantage of trying to tackle this problem so earlier on 😉

[spark cobalt]

https://tenor.com/view/just-do-it-shia-la-beouf-do-it-gif-4531935

[covert vector]

I have a friend who grinds leetcode 2 hours a day. He’s so good 🤣 he learnt 6 languages in 3 months 🤣

[spark cobalt]

Good for them

[spark cobalt]

These are superficial things. What has he built with these languages?

[buoyant seal]

Crazy. I decided I don't like leetcoding at all.
Not really user oriented developed stuff, which miss opportunity to train many other Dev skills

[delicate bane]

question. how to actually finish projects. asking for a friend.

[covert vector]

Nothing. I told him to do a project

[leaden jasper]

Leetcode will only get you so far if I'm being honest. It's important to know your DSA and feel confident for the technical interviews. But you also want projects on your resume, good grades in your classes, you want to do well in the social/soft-skill portion of your interviews. It's way, way more important to be well rounded and also actually build stuff

[delicate bane]

i am my friend is experiencing scope creep on their own projects

[spark cobalt]

I am rn with mine as well

[covert vector]

My next project that I want to do is to build a website using flask haven’t had time to learn flask I have a flask book by o Reilly

[spark cobalt]

It's all priorities.

[delicate bane]

oh you have a friend with the same issue as well?

[coral vine]

If the SWE interview is for a healthcare enterprise software like RCM (revenue cycle management), do the interviews tend to be easier like potentially no coding?

As opposed to interviewing at a company like twitter, which is more tech based?

[spark cobalt]

~~100% ~~

[buoyant seal]

I managed to finish my products by doing two things

1. writing all tasks as Github issues and joining them into GitHub milestones. Each milestone is new product release. (Organized into semantic versions)
   Greatly motivates to see green line of progress.

2. made products in static typed language with unit tests, those two things allowed me to have infinity room for Refactoring, making easy situation to keep going once I thoroughly cleaned everything once again (hooray to Golang)

3. I also try to advertise stuff I am doing somewhere, helps to have small fan club and feeling you develop stuff for people which really need it

[delicate bane]

noice. just heard a podcast where someone had a career advancement due to knowing golang. also, how to avoid scope/feature creep though

[covert vector]

@buoyant seal for learning OOP (I’ve learnt the basics already) which book do u recommend for python

Cuz I don’t think O Reilly has a book but packt does

[spark cobalt]

~~ me rn ~~

[delicate bane]

i didnt know you interviewed for a react position then advanced to a senior role where you wrote a whole accounting system in golang? /s

[spark cobalt]

[delicate bane]

im proud of you

[spark cobalt]

All me

[buoyant seal]

Just postpone features u don't want implement now into next or even as latest new release(or even don't schedule them at all). Assign tasks u wish to do in current milestone. Once u finished, u finished. Release new version and enjoy making another good step.
Prioritize tasks which are important to finish product over not important ones.
Do not important feature creep only if u have enough will power in current milestone

[delicate bane]

this is the podcast for those interested https://open.spotify.com/episode/3wTzp9QrsSpHyQ6T0QqbWI?si=FJHS-0u3TBCzItdQDhDUYA

[spark cobalt]

My issue is I have my backend pretty much done, I just don't wanna work on the frontend

[buoyant seal]

I saw good reviews for Object Oriented Python book
And checked its content menu briefly, looks good

[delicate bane]

will power is soooo hard but i will try

[buoyant seal]

Oh right and having CI is very recommended for project success. Helps to be not keeping stuff in head and enjoying green checkmarks near your commits.

If u get tired, u just fix tests, lints of CI and call it a day xD

I like green checkmarks? Helps motivation as well

Living between green to green, ensures u go to right direction with minimal routine/toil.

GitHub actions is my friend

It is kind of test addiction approval commonly encountered among TDD cultists.

[delicate bane]

haha heard great things about GH actions. also testdriven.io was mentioned on some podcasts

[near ocean]

What do when no opportunities though

[delicate bane]

no opportunities at your job?

find a new one jk. not rn.

[near ocean]

Limited, people arent so welcoming to change that might give them more work

[buoyant seal]

For project completion.. u need also to have good balance between good chosen code standards

And at the same time avoiding of making many repositories / many Microservices. Solution should be clean yet simple enough to enjoy keeping doing and finishing it.
Don't overcomplicate it... (Lesson learned hard at a very practical example by me)

[near ocean]

Do I push for change or do I leave for somewhere else where change comes more easily

[deft herald]

yes

[near ocean]

Thanks

[deft herald]

I'm curious what this actually means though

[near ocean]

Introducing typing annotations is first thing that pops to mind and typescript
People just dont want to change things theyre already familiar with or learn new things
We're still on 2.7 because "it works, dont touch it" is pretty much the company motto

[deft herald]

Yeah, i've experienced that but it was more of a security issue with deploying code on literally thousands of factory hosts.

[delicate bane]

oof i feel that. you really have to pick and choose your battles at places like these

[deft herald]

is that 2.7 like just within your team or company-wide or what?

I mean i would say that's a great opportunity right there - see what it would take to come up to a more modern standard

[delicate bane]

sometimes its too much politics to rock the boat. just depends on who all is on board

[near ocean]

Its not company wide anymore, there have been attempts at migrating, but its just so slow!
People dont want the responsibility of handling tickets related to this or these debt tickets straight up dont exist

I've tried asking people to raise tickets for improvements for dev tools and other features but they gotta be approved, timetabled, etc really corporate

I've asked for a TS ticket for 3 sprints now but more important things keep popping up

[deft herald]

Right but that in iteself could be a good opportunity to influence these politics. Be a squeaky wheel, gain exposure, etc

[delicate bane]

rip. yeah def pick your battles and then bide your time for a place more willing to accept change in your next job. at least thats what i would do. but its all up to the individual and their circumstances

[delicate bane]

it could be, yes. if you have a manager on your side that def helps.

[deft herald]

I recently was put into a leadership role and i feel like half the reason was because i decided to start being vocal about crappy code being merged in. Now i'm sort of in charge of that part 🤷‍♂️

[buoyant seal]

In my native language there are many idioms on this topic.
Usually their meaning goes like:

1. who voiced the problem, will be the one to solve it.
2. no good deed remains unpunished.

[deft herald]

yeah for sure

I guess my point is that if you're complaining about no one wanting to make a change, there's your "opportunity" right there. Just go make the changes yourself

now all of the sudden you have ownership of something; that's how you can grow

[delicate bane]

good advice. i would just add to make sure you have some support. i mean, technically you dont need it depending on your personality — its just harder.

[delicate bane]

read this for what data eng is from the perspective of a SWE https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/what-is-data-engineering/

Q: I’m hearing more about data engineering. As a software engineer, why is it important, what’s worth knowing about this field, and could it be worth transitioning into this area?

then read this book for a mental model of all the topics under DE and then decide where you want to focus your attention/what type of DE you want to be

[deft herald]

Yup. In theory your main supporting advocate for growth should be your manager

[smoky quest]

yourself, then your manager.

[deft herald]

sure, sure

[covert vector]

Which one? The packt one?

I have so many programming books it’s not even funny tho. I have like 40 books

90% of them are digital but I have a shit ton of book hahaha

[buoyant seal]

Yup.

[buoyant seal]

Well, you better keep processing them then 😆 learn at least 1 book per 1-2 months, and u will be awesome!

[buoyant seal]

90% developers don't read even a single book in a year 😁 it does not take a huge effort to be awesome (eventually after consistent effort)

[covert vector]

Yeah but rn I don’t have time to read anything 😂

I have to read my physics, chemistry and calculus textbooks on top of books from Gen ed courses. I’m reading crime and punishment rn great novel 600 pgs almost

[buoyant seal]

and that is why so little amount of people become developers :/ nobody has time and digilence for consistent effort in IT (or for that matter any other profession)

[covert vector]

Yeah but I gotta focus on school and I have a side job

I mean I would put in lots of time in IT if I wouldn’t have to do school. Usually I put lots of time in the summers

[buoyant seal]

sure. Get finished school, enter CS university and then you can concentrate on IT stuff
(as long as you managed to survive math subjects in uni)

[covert vector]

Yeah exactly what my plan is

Obviously it would be nice to do some stuff in the summer which I will do

I usually read 1 programming book I’m the summer.

[buoyant seal]

everyone is scary of their first time 😅 i was forced for some reasons to migrate to another country. Kind of way bigger leap of faith

[pastel quarry]

hii , I am making a python project and I m getting an error . I tried to resolve it but I was unable to can anyone help me in it through anyways ??

[deft herald]

Please read #❓｜how-to-get-help

you can open a help thread and we'll help you there

[junior gorge]

Hi guys, for some reason recruiters not reaching out to me on LinkedIn

[deft herald]

I wouldn't worry too much that your profile isn't "bot bait"

[coral hound]

Yea booii, 28% salary increase job offer

[river trout]

Bet

[buoyant seal]

#rules rule number 9 🙂 (P.S. original comment was already deleted)

[river trout]

Where can I find some freelance python devs for a simple bot project?

[deft herald]

Nice. Did you negotiate that?

[buoyant seal]

not here. Ergh, probably easiest from the point of having minimal... skill check quality is making request to outsourcing/outstaffing agency. Some of them are crap, most of them usually not crap. Easier to check their reputation in general than fishing dev on your own.

[river trout]

Thanks, seems like a lot of hoops for a "gig" but I understand your point of view.

[buoyant seal]

i just already tried ... fishing freelancer devs at Freelancer platforms... that was not really pleasant experience 😁
Anyway, out of curiosity, tell me details of what you wish to build in DM? i am at least curious to interrogate you for requirements what u wish to build and how do you want to connect regarding that

[river trout]

No doubt , I've found the best devs in places like this. Backroom DC channels.

[coral hound]

Nah current company can't match, no budget for retaining, sad part is they will end up paying what I asked for a replacement anyways

[delicate bane]

np. good luck

[burnt crystal]

How can I freelance programming?

[peak halo]

There are websites like fiverr, but unless you have years of experience, you're probably not going to be successful. Being a free lancer means that you can be a one-person show.

[delicate bane]

this includes the business portion/getting clients/etc.

[shrewd saddle]

Hi, any good resources to start working on python projects?

like any repo or links?

[delicate bane]

@buoyant seal potential career path? https://platformengineering.org/

[ashen palm]

How do I say "no" to my senior managers asking to work in off hours especially uncomfortable late nights (usually when something is urgent).

[white relic]

"I have plans"

you don't really need an excuse

[vapid jay]

Hi :D

[white relic]

I mean there is some discernment there. I work late sometimes, when something really needs done. But if it is a weekly or monthly occurrence then it's not a matter of the thing being urgent, it's a matter of the team being chronically understaffed. That's their problem to fix, not yours

this might be different if you're being paid time and a half, or if you need to be "on call" sometimes

[vapid jay]

@white relic hello :)

[white relic]

Hi

did you have a career related thing to discuss?

[vapid jay]

Can u teach me how to code pls? i know a bit about variables and strings

[vapid jay]

ummm i.... want to learn coding

[white relic]

!resources That isn't really what this channel is for
or this server, although I suppose its possible

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

oh i ment u can come to dm and u can teach me there...

[thorn oar]

#python-discussion #❓｜how-to-get-help

[thorn oar]

read the !resources page, this server isn't really for one-on-one teaching

[vapid jay]

oh...

u know anywhere where someone can teach me one to one

[thorn oar]

why? let's move to #python-discussion

[vapid jay]

ok

[ashen palm]

I like to maintain a strict no screen time after 8pm. It makes me very sad
I wish there were career options where people would just work on a fixed healthy span of time.

[white relic]

In my previous job which I held for 8 years, I worked OT twice.

[vapid jay]

@white relic i am sorry... i know this is not the place but i really need someone to teach, if u are not free can u recommend someone else to teach me pls...

[white relic]

And I could have said no even then.
Those jobs exist, maybe not in the kinds of companies or salary range you are looking for, but pick your poison

[vapid jay]

And i think it can be a first step for building a carrer :D

[delicate bane]

youre dont have on call duties right? or other overtime obligations? just say youll look at this first thing in the morning — thats what i always do

[white relic]

no, please don't keep asking after people have indicated disinterest

[ashen palm]

I feel guilty that's all.

[white relic]

!resources are there to help you learn

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

oh... i am sorry .. :(

[delicate bane]

dont. i used to feel guilty. now i feel the opposite of guilty. whatever that feeling is

[ashen palm]

It's just my manager was laid off. Then I was given her responsibility. But pay is too low and work is too high.
I manage a DevOps platform. All the anti patterns exist as mentioned in that platform engineering site. Although it can be rewarding to fix problems. But sometimes there are bugger problems where architects are needed. They work however they please and set up calls expecting me to appear all the times.

[white relic]

Is your management trying to make you feel guilty for missing deadlines you didn't set, schedule slip due to things beyond your control, and expecting you to pick up the slack unfairly? Or is this more of an expectation you have for yourself?

[delicate bane]

ah i just heard a podcast about platform eng. hence, why i sent DW that link.

you should do what ours does — set up office hours. otherwise, they should set up appointments beforehand unless its like an active P1 or something

[white relic]

someone sending you a meeting request doesn't, in general, mean you have to accept it

[ashen palm]

Since I'm new to DevOps migrated from ops. I'm scared to give a negative attitude. That's all.

[vapid jay]

Is a computer science degree worth it? I am working for myself

[ashen palm]

I think I just lack the balls to face a situation like that.

[delicate bane]

office hours is better in the long run. otherwise you will always be chasing down fires.

[white relic]

All that said, stepping up to make something happen in the short term can pay off if it gives you a win in your pocket to bring up in next salary increase conversation. But it shouldn't be a continual state of affairs

[ashen palm]

Very true

[delicate bane]

its not sustainable

especially if you are understaffed which you might be due to recent layoffs

[vapid jay]

Also interested in ai and astrophysics fyi

If anyone can help

[delicate bane]

but trent brings up a good point. could be an opportunity but not worth burning out; just keep your energy levels in mind.

[vital wyvern]

https://discordapp.com/channels/267624335836053506/470889390588035082/1052639764177748008
Suggest referring to that post.

[white relic]

worth what? most stem degrees are worth what you pay for them in the long run, and CS certainly is, if you want to go into a related field

[delicate bane]

ah i hope chaos is doing well. havent seen 'em around lately. probs work stuff

[vapid jay]

In context of working for myself

[vital wyvern]

It kind of depends I guess? If you're trying to freelance, your education is likely secondhand to the product you're selling/service your providing.
Likewise, if you're maintaining infrastructure/software for a home business, then again-- your actual abilities will be secondhand.
However, I don't think it's an unreasonable assertion to say that you learn valuable skills within any college education track, and additionally I'm not sure I'd put all my eggs in a single basket.
YMMV, I'm not a SWE, but my take on the situation.

[vapid jay]

So maybe just focus on specific things

[delicate bane]

whats the alternative? you dont go to school and then what?

[white relic]

Freelancing without a portfolio or a degree is going to be... uh. Let's just say a risk.

And by portfolio I mean you have already done some freelance work not "I copied this tutorial"

[vapid jay]

Keep self learning. I tried a night class but its slow and I am advanced

[vapid jay]

Part of the plan is to assist first and get exp

[delicate bane]

ok self learning until when? how will you know when you are done?

[vapid jay]

When it all clicks and makes sense. And i can build anything I can think of

[delicate bane]

im not trying to be antagonistic btw. just trying to have you think about these deeper questions

[vapid jay]

Yeah go for it. I will never work for anyone but myself. Rather die

[white relic]

there's a reason most people go to work for someone else. Self employment is the harder path and not getting a degree is handicapping yourself before you even begin

[vapid jay]

I like the harder path. I was asking if cs will help me

[vital wyvern]

The answer is definitively yes, a college education will help you.

[vapid jay]

Thanks

Did it help any of you in self employment?

[white relic]

maybe you can make it work, but if you want the best chance of success you will take all the opportunities available to you that can improve your ability and connections, and a cs degree will do both

[delicate bane]

i work for the man. unfortunately.

[white relic]

same

[vapid jay]

Never again. Been mistreated too many times

[white relic]

although I don't really consider it unfortunate, as I've never been mistreated and I'm not trying to minmax my career

[delicate bane]

it pays the bills. maybe one day i will work for myself but i def want to build up more skills first

[vital wyvern]

I freelanced prior to the military while I was going to college (and doing an applied science specialty in addition to my degree.) To be clear, I was a graphic designer.
My portfolio was very difficult to develop, work was intermittent, and I wasn't sure how to advertise my skills.
I found it difficult to solicit work that was enough to offset the amount of time I was spending on certain tasks.
I also did not have a good foundation of business applications of graphic design, as there's a lot more than just 'make vectorized logo' often.

All of this would've been solved through college education.

[delicate bane]

thats good. minmaxing is overrated. def not for me.

[summer roost]

I can't imagine working for myself. Freelancing software dev takes all of the parts of my current job I find least enjoyable, and stretches them to be the vast majority of the work day.

[white relic]

I've known people, some in my family, who started their own businesses. It's a lot of work. I don't plan to.

[vital wyvern]

I think contracting is a reasonable alternative to freelance work.

[delicate bane]

micro-saas when

[vital wyvern]

Still in the freelance sphere, but you get the stability of being beholden to a company for some period of time without some specific obligations.

[delicate bane]

graphic design? nifty

[summer roost]

If by contracting you mean working for an agency, sure. If you mean working long term contracts for a company, sure. But both of those are still working "for the man"

[vital wyvern]

Yeah, I wanted to be a designer when I was growing up, but I met a really cool Chemistry teacher who convinced me to come work with him on research through college. I switched my major, burnt out, and joined the military. Don't recommend it.

[toxic pumice]

https://interviewant.com/

[summer roost]

Hell, I get stressed by taxes every year as a salaried employee with a single income. Just thinking about what it would be like to deal with taxes as a self employed person stresses me out

[vital wyvern]

Both of those were kind of what I was implying. It adds a little more mobility is all imo.

Oh man I need to do my taxes... Thanks for the reminder

[delicate bane]

as a freelancer you have to do quarterly taxes or something too

quarterly

[summer roost]

Yep

[delicate bane]

[vital wyvern]

I have my final interview with <big ol bank> Wednesday

I've done a lot of interviews/boards/panels/briefs in the mil, but I still get mild anxiety when it comes to the entire process. It's nothing insurmountable, but I've grown bored of the fact that 8 years of continual experience hasn't really resolved a mild fear of public speaking lol.

[vapid jay]

That is interesting. I was selected for the navy, cryptologic. I turned them down. I have the social skills to succeed on my own, just building the technical

[vital wyvern]

You seem very confident in yourself, that's good. 🙂
I have some very strong opinions on the military, both positive and negative, but I think generally speaking as a piece of advice to throw into the ether, if you're ever in a position where you can obtain a job and a TS/SCI within the military, the number of doors it opens is... absolutely absurd.

[vapid jay]

Agreed! I had job offers from two rival defence contractors that make sonar for the navy. Turned them down too.

Not for me. I just want to learn how to code well. Make my own things. Brain never stops

I have a billion ideas. Don't want my life to be rigid.

[robust gale]

Our industry is v broken interview-wise

[devout hedge]

Does anyone here work in the security field? I'm looking to move towards a more security engineering style role and am looking for resources/advice/recommendations companies that are hiring people with solid (python) dev chops and some basic domain knowledge...

(pls reply to my message either with @ or with the reply feature)

[pastel thunder]

is experience is all they want??? I know I am expecting a little more than average fresher, but i am not getting even a single call from job that require 2+ years experience.

At this point is improving and diversifying my skill the only way?

[near ocean]

Are you a fresh graduate?

[pastel thunder]

yes

[white relic]

didn't you say you had only applied to about 10 openings so far?

[buoyant seal]

some companies wish to buy middle devs at the cost of fresh graduate 🙂 (you would not be middle dev at the level of skills, but they aren't tech guys, and can't distinguish anyway)
but you need to have something catchy in your resume, to prove you being capable? in my case it was participation in open source projects
P.S. disclaimer, this tricks works better for local hirement, when you have already work permissions and etc to be hired with least trouble (remember, you are hired for being cheapest! and taking care of any legal stuff jumps the price considerably)

Usually though if they require 2 years of experience, then they require 2 years of experience.
I heard some people consider some university years as years of experience too though sometimes

[white relic]

If you're applying to jobs that require 2 years experience and you don't have that, yeah some companies may decide to take a chance on you so it's worth a try, but you're not entitled to consideration

especially since (iirc) you favor FAANG level companies which likely have real entry level openings, and startups which may have low risk tolerance

[pastel thunder]

i applied to about 12 more which required 1+ or 2+, but i can see status as rejected

hwo can they ignore CMU, research papers, grades etc.

[white relic]

When I had just graduated, I got an interview with a really neat company for a job that I wasn't ultimately qualified for. The listing wasn't super clear about the requirements; I probably wouldn't have even bothered if I had known what they were looking for. But they decided to bring me in anyway and give me a chance with an interview.
However, I didn't get the job because the interview showed I didn't have the skills. So even if you get to the interview stage that doesn't mean you have been found qualified for a job

[pastel thunder]

its just getting overwhelming, do you think effort of personally connecting to recruiter over linkedin, worthwhile?

but then i dont know how to strike up convo.

[white relic]

I never did that personally.

Where are you looking for jobs BTW?

[pastel thunder]

i mainly look at linkedin(no money), anglelist(no response), indeed(only rejects), and some other...
and company sites too(oblivion)

[white relic]

I meant geographically. You are in India or US?

[pastel thunder]

India

i dont have preference, i apply remote, on-site, rarely international cuz i know its long shot

[near ocean]

Its overwhelming because you applied to 12 ads and didnt get any interviews? Are you serious?

[white relic]

the job market there is strange to many of us westerners so idk how it really works. Many Indians who come thru here complain of how competitive it is.

[pastel thunder]

its 25+ now

[spark cobalt]

Bruh

[near ocean]

Wilder drop some numbers on this mans

[pastel thunder]

and if they just ignored i did be optimistic, but i literally recieved "reject"

[spark cobalt]

I applied to 4000 for 2 job offers, 0.13% response rate. Didn't get hurt emotionally a single bit from the rejections.

It doesn't matter how many failures there are till you reach that one yes. Just keep applying since you seem capable of getting a yes.

[near ocean]

I graduated in the pandemic, i would do around 10 apps per week for the period of Oct 2020 - July 2021, 1 interview, 1 offer

[spark cobalt]

25 is far too small of a sample set to understand your odds in the market. Everything is a number game, treat this as a science.

Apply to 1000 jobs, calculate response rate, then calculate rate you convert those interviews into offers.

By then you have a set number to apply to to guarantee you a job

I did this while I was 18 and just graduated high school and no college degree. Rejection was guaranteed. I applied starting last year when the entire junior market started getting fucked in the US.

[near ocean]

I wasnt a good candidate, shouldnt have taken me so long, i had good grades but 0 internships in two degrees

[spark cobalt]

Rejection at least can help you point at what you did wrong. Success can help you point to what you did right.

Everything's a reinforcement system if you think about it.

Now I'm the lead developer for a product we sell to Bloomberg, and I'm like 5 months into being a dev?

Well I guess that's not my title but I make nearly all the architectural decisions, do quite a bit of product management, etc.

[pastel thunder]

fun fact: i have told my mom i will get a better job than my elder bro.as a fresher

[spark cobalt]

Nothing's wrong with rejection. What's wrong is if you get rejected and don't keep trying new things. My resume has over 30 iterations/reworks over the period.

[near ocean]

Its not a good idea to be competitive with family

[spark cobalt]

Not really.

[pastel thunder]

i study like i am nutz, i want my payee to be nutz, thats all

[near ocean]

If your brother has a giga job getting fat stacks you should be happy for him and not try and one up him

[spark cobalt]

I barely code like 15 hours a week now

[white relic]

then why aren't you applying to jobs like nutz

[spark cobalt]

My resume was getting rejected automatically due to not having a degree. It was a reality I had to accept.

0.13% response rate.

[pastel thunder]

i do try to fulfill requriments, i though 15ish was decent or infact high,
now that i hear some of you apply to 4000, wait, i will go nutz on this too

[pastel thunder]

how did you make it, i might learn a thing or two

[near ocean]

Jakes resume most probably, how have you built yours?

[pastel thunder]

i have a decent one i guess, should i share?

[near ocean]

Sure, take out identifying info and post a screenshot

And also jakes resume refers to https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs

(in case youre not familiar with it)

[spark cobalt]

It just takes one yes.

What I also did in that period:

• Go to a lot of dev meetups, was able to rack in referrals nearly everyday for several weeks.
• Gathering opinions and abusing the resources I had. I even had a directors/presidents/etc. at completely unrelated non-tech stuff to review my resume. I took the cents from EVERYBODY I can get my hands on.
• I invested into just being in environments where I can listen and learn to communicate. As I was fresh 18 years of talking to parents, students, or people who deals with kids. I didn't realize that my mannerisms was just like a kid, so "jumping in with the sharks" and just keep listening to what I hear is how I went for much of the way.
• Being a good person. I reached out to people to express my story and not ask for referrals. In fact, most referrals I got were people who liked my story and my background and offered me referrals without me asking or hinting at it. This leads to another point:
• Because I'm a huge risk for employers, I needed to learn how to sell myself. Every single thing I've said to others, there has been a mental note on their response physically/verbally/etc. Talking to enough people allowed me to put my best step forward.
• Every opportunity I get I go deep. I only get few opportunities from my trials, I invested deep in almost all of them. For example: one interview was a take home assignment for an electronic bill boarding company, it was mentioned in the interview they wanted to make a billboard simulator. With 0 experience in React, JS, HTML, CSS, I built a billboard simulator in a week which got me a job offer over 4 other people who were all college grads.

This project was 16+ hour effort for 6-7 days straight.

[devout hedge]

Is this in India?

[spark cobalt]

No, I'm in the US.

[pastel thunder]

can i dm you? i might have left some info unknowingly

[spark cobalt]

I can't sleep 😦

[near ocean]

Did covid affect your dev meetup going at all?

[near ocean]

I dont really do dms and theres other people in here far more knowledgeable than i am

[devout hedge]

Because I literally just applied for dev positions with no degree (terrible student) and got interviews pretty regularly

[spark cobalt]

This was last year. July-September 2022. COVID was "over"

[white relic]

I enjoy reading Wilder's experiences because they show what it really looks like to have hustle, which I lack

[devout hedge]

yeah holy s*** dude that's some next level grind

[spark cobalt]

It's all a number game. As long as it's not a 0% chance, then it can be gamified to a decent chance of success.

[near ocean]

First thing i would do is move sections around, experience over education/skills/publications

[spark cobalt]

It goes into the whole question of what is luck

I'd cut off certs, service/orgs, then go deeper in your experience/projects

[pastel thunder]

@white relic i also did some changes, you suggested, what do you think

[white relic]

it's worth pointing out that although a person with no degree is more of a risk than you probably are as a grad from a good school, every new grad is still a risk for the employer. Gotta find a company that is willing to take that risk on you

[spark cobalt]

A spectrum 🥲

[devout hedge]

I would put certs all the way at the bottom, Experience first with the stack you used for each position

[spark cobalt]

You're gonna be balls deep laughing at how gamified it is. I'll send later

[pastel thunder]

ok

[devout hedge]

send it to me too if you're down

[spark cobalt]

No disrespect to you, I just know 2sigma more personally, I feel more comfortable sharing to him

@modern ore Wait did we connect on LinkedIn yet

I'll send you a connection request

[white relic]

Better. I wouldn't spend any space on mentioning what public school you went to or grades before uni, that isn't really worth it in the us at least

And break the skills categories into separate lines

[pastel thunder]

ok, so
experience first
remove school grades

if i put cert at bottom, should education be at bottom too?

[spark cobalt]

This is a matter of priorities. I'd rank your certs to be lowest priority with service/org out of your entire resume

You can, but going deeper into your experience and projects would be much more beneficial to the overall resume than keeping certa

For example: it would be good for employers to know what kinds of technologies you used at your experiences

[pastel thunder]

experience
education(without middle school)
project
skills

fine?

[spark cobalt]

I'd probably put education on top cuz it's a new grad resume...? Especially if you're in a T1 college, it'll be a big consideration (at least from what I've heard from my Indian coworkers)

Fairly certain that India puts a much heavier emphasis on education than in the States. I'd probably keep it first

[pastel thunder]

skills after project?

[spark cobalt]

I don't really have an issue with your order.

Education -> Skills -> Experience -> Projects is pretty reasonable.

[near ocean]

Isnt he aiming at US/western jobs?

[pastel thunder]

no, india

[near ocean]

Oh, my b then ignore my piece of advice

[spark cobalt]

Oh, I'm not sure. If he is though, education will still be placed with much higher emphasis than a US citizen for example, for seeking US job

[pastel thunder]

but not limited to india
i will make two sets of resume then

[spark cobalt]

That being said, from the people I know that are immigrants, I've met 1/200+ that only had a bachelor's.

My company's almost entirely immigrants and almost every one of the engineer team is MS/PhD

Not sure how we ended up with that demographic but yeah.

[spark cobalt]

I'd still put education first.

Respectfully, your experiences are 1 month long. That isn't much.

[pastel thunder]

now that everyone talks about it
i am actually confused cuz its tier 1 univ vs CMU internship lmao

[spark cobalt]

Education will be the first thing an overseas person will look for, give it to them first. Esp for someone your exp

[pastel thunder]

my skills arent very diverse should i put it below exp?

yeah priority is SWE>ML
but my skills says ML>SWE

[spark cobalt]

Skills above or below are both fine. I mean above allows recruiters to scan for keywords fast and if you satisfy the buzzword/keywords they're looking for, the rest of the resume becomes easy for them.

I personally like the skills above format, but I completely understand the reason to do it on the bottom as well.

Do whatever you feel is better/looks better/etc. It's good to be confident in your resume. Whichever one makes you feel more confident.

[pastel thunder]

alr?

[spark cobalt]

Already

[pastel thunder]

many exp but as intenships

[spark cobalt]

I'm moreso interested in this 1 month internship system. 3 internships all lasting a month long, a month goes by so fast...

[pastel thunder]

those were actually easy to get through connections, didnt learn much over there but

[spark cobalt]

Makes sense

Gn folks

[pastel thunder]

good night, thanks

[spark cobalt]

Gl

[pastel thunder]

no. remote work

hmm, trust me i literally emailed 700 emails for getting that

it did cuz grades to suffer but i think it was worth it

thank you

[white relic]

This checks out for me. I suspect it's because many immigrants are, want to be or have been on an H1B (work) visa and those are by design much easier to get for highly educated people

also there are visas you can get just for being really smart highly educated, I have worked with those too

[vapid jay]

Yo is anyone here know marketing well

I’m studying it and wanna learn how to automatically grow traffic to my site

Without paying for ads obviously, but that is still an option

[coral hound]

Man the more salty recruiters get about you receiving better offers the more it makes me not want to take their job

You'd think that would be obvious to them

Like great, I take a job, we both get paid, wohoo, that doesn't mean you should be surprised I'd entertain offers that are paying more

[vapid jay]

I mean I would be salty too if another company stole my client

[near ocean]

Maybe offer better deals lol

[vapid jay]

True

10% more clients > 10% less profit

By > I mean greater

[sly gulch]

Any good CV examples for PhD student, fresh grads, or early postdoc?
Like, which PhD fresh grad has a great CV and I can use it for ideas?

[wheat roost]

happy holi !

[dawn narwhal]

What are the things that a recruiter would ask to an employee so to be hired as a junior software developer

[sleek egret]

yar

[sleek egret]

questions can range from skills you know, to what classes you took. some recruiters use written tests. a handful help with practice interviews.

generally speaking though, recruiters don't really help much. they throw minimally vetted candidates at employers hoping they get a hire.

[buoyant seal]

google book shops, ~~or use torrent to download them you know 🏴‍☠️ ~~
https://www.amazon.com/Manga-Guide-Linear-Algebra/dp/1593274130

[near remnant]

Just finished my final interview with CEO. it was amazing I think. I will hear back before the weekend. Damn..the waiting is crazy!

Hopefully it is an offer this time

[rustic cairn]

i love python

[fiery venture]

I heard people talking about 6 figure salaries wtf are they doing?

[rustic cairn]

its pretty easy

[fiery venture]

isnt 6 figures 600k or 60k

[rustic cairn]

in the USA, in NYC. No it's over $100k lol

[fiery venture]

ohh, that is my goal then lol.

Are there any really important skills I should learn since I'm still in high lol?

[pine sleet]

"6 figures", that is, a number with 6 digits

[fiery venture]

Ohh I see mb.

[spark cobalt]

I think it's just also due to how competitive it is in nature as well.

[pine sleet]

Learn how to learn. It can be more important to know how to pick up new concepts, technologies, or languages than it might be to know a set of tools (which is still important, don't get me wrong)

[fiery venture]

I am a really fast learner and I can adapt quickly. I was talking about like is there any language/s I should try mastering, (or packages)

[pine sleet]

That's good.
It honestly depends on specifically what you will be doing

[fiery venture]

Software development I think. that is my choice right now, might change it later idk!

[sleek egret]

well time to decide

[pine sleet]

Software development might still be too generic

[fiery venture]

any other idea's?

I thought so since there are SO many software developers. Not be surprised if there was lot competition

I'm fine at my studies.

[sleek egret]

there is a ton of competition but also a ton of slots to compete for. so it sorta evens out.

[fiery venture]

Yeah, well he said it was generic. If he has any better ideas I would appreciate hearing then

[spark cobalt]

Just spend the time exploring what you want to do. There's so many things you can do as a SWE.

But you should prioritize good grades and aim for a T1 college that'll give you a lot of opportunities like Stanford.

[fiery venture]

Yeah, I am

What is like average salary for SWE's

[spark cobalt]

Depends on location, background, what area of CS, etc.

[sleek egret]

the over/under for bottom 25% to top 25% is around $90k to $150k in the USA. It'll be somewhat lower for new grads. and somewhat higher in hot spots like silicon valley and nyc.

[spark cobalt]

I think the most recent number for new grad I saw was 120k in the Bay Area...?

[sleek egret]

most new grads do not get jobs in the bay area

[fiery venture]

I stopped playing videogame's a bit ago and I want to spend all the time I put into them trying to become like an SR in python and then try to do the same with like web dev

[spark cobalt]

I'd explore first. Web dev isn't everything there is to coding

[fiery venture]

Yeah, ik ik

[sleek egret]

web dev is a small fraction of software development. even at ostensibly "web first" companies

[fiery venture]

is there any other language? I was thinking kotlin or c++

[sleek egret]

to wit, if more than 20% of facebook or twitter's programmers work on "web" technologies, I'd be surprised

[spark cobalt]

This isn't about languages, but about what you want to accomplish with software development

[sleek egret]

there are hundreds of programming languages in active commercial use. and dozens of popular ones.

[spark cobalt]

But for general learning, probably do like Python then do C.

[fiery venture]

Alright.

[sleek egret]

I'd add Javascript and SQL as "really should learn early on"

I have lots of issues with that roadmap as it seems to ignore like 75% of the industry. but whatever, could be worse, I guess.

[spark cobalt]

Why not explore the technologies around you and look into how they work. For example, your WIFI, your OS, etc.

[spark cobalt]

Gets the other 25% decently nice

[sleek egret]

<shrug>

some of the choices to highlight are... odd... like, "flutter" in the top level role based roadmaps?

[spark cobalt]

[spark cobalt]

Don't decide before you've realized what the options even are 🙂

[sleek egret]

and GraphQL but no SQL in "skill based roadmaps"?

I mean, come on.

[pine sleet]

skill based roadmap more like based roadmap

[sleek egret]

I know someone explained it to me before, but I can't remember if "based" is good or bad

[spark cobalt]

Means it's good.

[pine sleet]

I don't particularly care for roadmap, just a funny pun opportunity I had to take

[spark cobalt]

to recognize someone for being themselves, i.e. courageous and unique or not caring what others think. Especially common in online political slang.

Is it's originating definition, but now it typically just means you agree with whatever you call based.

[pine sleet]

Though it is interesting FWIW

Just had ideas on technologies / areas I hadn't even thought of

[zealous path]

Depends. Some “based” comments are wholesome whilst others are just comedic but would be terrible in reality.
Respecting women is based.
But also eating alive the athletic investigator, who found my steroids, for his calories would be “based”

[sleek egret]

lol, well that clears things up

[grizzled dune]

yo guys

i wanna get a software engineering interniship and i already have a internship that i've done

[deft swift]

That's cool.

[grizzled dune]

how likely do u guys think it'll be that i get in to any good paying ones?

and how much code practice do u guys think i need if im an intermediate level coder?

[grizzled dune]

thx lmao

[potent stratus]

I'll second this - I've had python, C, and sql professionally and not knowing javascript is becoming a barrier to do what I want to do next, so I'm now trying to learn basic enough JS to do some things (think demo code) on my own at work instead of having to ask someone else for it

[sleek egret]

js is a bit weird coming from python and C++, eh?

[potent stratus]

it's frustrating in the "I know exactly what I'm trying to accomplish I just don't know how to make this syntax do the thing"

[sleek egret]

just as an FYI, one of the reasons is because javascript OOP is from the prototype-style languages (like Self) rather than class-style languages (like Smalltalk, C++, Java).

though they've been bolting on class-style features in the last few years

[pastel thunder]

i am mainly looking for ML role
what skills do i lack?

i notice AWS, CUDA optimisation as constantly something thats listed and i dont know much, should these be high priority?
what other things should i learn?

[grizzled dune]

i thought when they list those its only one of those u have to learn

💀

[sleek egret]

You're not listing your maths background.

[pastel thunder]

focussing on bigger picture currently, will include those as well

[sleek egret]

From your list of tech, you've probably been involved in a few projects. So you're likely aware that ML is basically divided into three main roles: data prep, training and model design. The more math you know, the higher up the value chain you can be.

[pastel thunder]

i see. and how about hadoop, aws restapi, etc etc

[sleek egret]

the math phd's would consider such tasks the domain of the proles, would they not?

[peak halo]

if you list all of those, be prepared to answer questions about any of them in an interview. I made the mistake of saying that I "knew" tensorflow when I really didn't because I had once edited a program that imported tensorflow, and bombed a pretty basic tensorflow question during an interview. (but was still offered the position, for some reason.)

[sleek egret]

if you like and enjoy working with the infrastructure stuff, then I'd suggest pitching that. talk about how you like to streamline the process and fix things to make life easier for the mathy-types

[sleek egret]

it's because larger groups require people with a wide variety of skillsets. so it's likely you were strong enough somewhere else that they wanted you.

[pastel thunder]

i have actually made a projects on them, but i know i wont be able to answer questions on it

[peak halo]

I accepted an even better position elsewhere, so I have no doubt I could have performed well in that role. it's just ironic that I was offered the position in my "what not to put in your resume" anecdote.

[sleek egret]

heh

[pastel thunder]

actually i think i miss calls cuz i dont have CUDA prog, aws/azure etc

[sleek egret]

but do you want those calls?

I mean, i've got extensive experience with AWS but I don't want a job doing that.

[pastel thunder]

tbh you sound really intelligent, may be thats why, i just have noticed from past talks

[delicate bane]

graduate degree jk. maybe.

[peak halo]

not sure I follow. if you used a given library for a project, you should be able to answer the kinds of questions about it that you'd get in an interview. otherwise, I'd be concerned that your involvement in those projects was superficial.

[peak halo]

I was a linguistics student before I switched sides, so I use writing to trick people into thinking I'm more competent than I really am.

[delicate bane]

communication skills are underrated. you can always teach technical skills.

[sleek egret]

being smarter without being able to communicate well is rather pointless, IMO

[delicate bane]

[pastel thunder]

so i dont need to learn more tech,thats what i am concluding

[sleek egret]

just go into management like I did. then you can pretend all day and no one will call you on it! 😋

[pastel thunder]

i am depressed, for job, and ...let me cry

[sleek egret]

time for lunch, ttyl

[pastel thunder]

what was the quesiton?

[peak halo]

how to optimize a trained tensorflow model when using it in production.

he was expecting something connected to this: https://www.tensorflow.org/tfx/serving/serving_basic

but then he said that they've mostly switched to pytorch

[pastel thunder]

i actually dont know how tensorflow would have caused delays, i means all answers i could think of are independent of ML libraries

[peak halo]

"serve" was the magic word he was looking for. but I said some stuff about how prediction will run faster than training anyway because you don't have to adjust the weights, etc.

[pastel thunder]

yeah, i would have said the second thing, and felt sed inside knowing what i said

[true harness]

i got asked about the software development life cycle yesterday in an interview. totally bsed it but they seemed to like it enough lol

[pastel thunder]

answer would be similar to devops cycle, right?

[true harness]

well i don't know what that is either, so

[pastel thunder]

devops include deployement+continuos corrections too along with these

[true harness]

yeah i just spouted some bs about like, planning, writing, debugging and "iterative process"

[spark cobalt]

I'd probably answer the same lol

[potent stratus]

my personal advice would be that if you're interviewing for a role where it's okay to not have experience with the thing (ie for internships, it's okay to have not been explicitly taught what the SDLC is) caveat something like "I'm not familiar with that phrase, but my understanding of how it would go is...." - but that's because as an interviewer, there's a big difference between how I judge a confidently incorrect answer vs a "this is my informed best answer but I'm not 1000% confident"

[true harness]

yeah. i said something like, "i'm not familiar with it in formal terms, but ..."

[rancid merlin]

Ohh

[vapid jay]

is Azure AZ - 900 certification good for python

[white relic]

I'm not familiar with that one, but there aren't really any certificates that carry weight when it comes to Python or really software dev in general

see the pinned comment which I can't figure out how to link to because mobile

[lofty shard]

without indicating this is a must or any good at all, if you'd want to go full picture, no matter the scale, there is for example https://www.scaledagileframework.com/

[limber eagle]

What are the typical salaries for a python developer living in Atlanta?

[true harness]

the annual mean wage in georgia is pretty much 115k. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm. median is likely lower in the state, but it's probably about right for atlanta. you could also look on glassdoor and levels.fyi and friends

[sleek egret]

I'd trust BLS data over any of those sites

[true harness]

same, but BLS isn't as granular as the other sites can be. glassdoor and friends can give you numbers for specific titles in specific regions

[sleek egret]

problem there is that titles are not meaningful between companies

[true harness]

it's a useful ballpark ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[true harness]

actually, they're especially useful if you're just considering a number you got from a specific company

[smoky quest]

It depends on your seniority, education, years of experience, role, etc.

[sleek egret]

didn't we already go through atlanta salaries already?

[smoky quest]

not to that extent

[vapid jay]

will the free Harvard CS50 be good enough instead of a degree?

[dreamy shadow]

No

[vapid jay]

a good entry?

[true harness]

yes

[vapid jay]

was going to follow along with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mAITcNt710&ab_channel=freeCodeCamp.org

[dreamy shadow]

A degree is not just about the things you learn in the program. It also shows employers you have grit.

And proof that you know how to learn when facing a new task

[delicate bane]

@dreamy shadow its that time again. new job when

[delicate bane]

i know medium articles have a bad rep but mikiko b. is one of the good ones imo. good read if you are considering bootcamps: https://medium.com/kitchen-sink-data-science/data-science-bootcamps-how-to-not-get-screwed-what-to-look-for-to-get-the-highest-roi-possible-b1f514b3dc9d

includes a framework too:

this was also really sad but true:

There are incredibly sad stories of boot camp graduates going through expensive programs (oftentimes requiring loans), shelling out anywhere from $15–20K, only to find out that the program didn’t teach them the necessary skills to get a job and was still searching up to 1.5 years later. These boot camps would sell them on the dream of being able to move up in their careers, take their money, and give them no support.

and ofc you should at least have attempted learning on your own first.

[burnt crystal]

@peak halo So are there better options of getting a programming job instead of freelancing?

[thorn oar]

why not just get a job as a software engineer or a similar job title?

[obtuse grove]

Are websites still the nr 1 job for developers

in terms of number of developers working on it

[deft herald]

You mean like web development? I highly doubt it

[peak halo]

which domain do you think has the most developers if not web development?

[deft herald]

actually now that i think about it, yeah it might be the largest domain for software

I think i took the question to mean "are the majority of developers in web dev?" Meaning >= 50% of software is web-related

[spark cobalt]

Most are connected to some sort of UI somewhere.

[dreamy shadow]

I wonder if they got paid to post that lmao. Breaking into a Data Scientist position with undergrad + boot camp is like garbage tier advice. Might as well commit to a masters.

[delicate bane]

they were one of the few that couldnt do a masters. but yes she mentions that if you can go that route its more stable.

[dreamy shadow]

I give up, it's too hard to resist not ranting on this article.

As I mentioned, a master’s program wasn’t an option for me because of my undergraduate GPA (which was about ~2.6/4.0, roughly a C+ average).

THIS IS 3/4 down the page? Maybe start with: Try to get a masters first. Many masters program, especially online ones, will ignore undergrad GPA given you have a proven work track record (+Community college non-degree courses helps a lot), good LoR (professional works), good SoP (describing why the bad undergrad + how you grew).

There probably is a certain amount of survivorship bias going on, as I’ve mentored plenty of Master’s and PhD degree holders that weren’t able to break into data science without months (to a year) of intense interview prep and upskilling in software development and programming.
You mean response bias? As in, people who failed to get a job after a post grad are more likely to go to someone for additional help?

[delicate bane]

lmao fine i wont post this stuff anymore. its decent compared to some of the other crap.

[delicate bane]

web dev imo

[dreamy shadow]

I hate most medium articles in general. There's like 5% decent guides, and 95% of quora tier guides(?). "Save 20 hours a week by removing these 4 useless things in your life"

[spark cobalt]

DevOps/Test Engineers getting popular. Maybe second.

[dreamy shadow]

Test engineers is same as QA? or different.

[delicate bane]

i hate them too tbh. im more of a substack guy. but she has decent content.

[dreamy shadow]

Honestly reads like satire. "Great experience! 1/3 worked!"

I don't really read most articles anymore, saw a video on how easily it was to generate an article just with AI. Bare minimum research + ai, boom 5 page article.

[delicate bane]

ok.

i still think this is decent for someone thinking about switching to tech.

[heavy pulsar]

1. medium
2. medium
3. medium
4. medium

[dreamy shadow]

My thoughts are: Relevant Masters > Masters > Boot camp > 10000 applications.

[vapid jay]

not for employers, for my self and my own

[maiden fog]

i have an interview for an application analyst internship tomorrow 🙂 1 of 3 from my program to be referred.

how to not blow it?

[vapid jay]

Look smart, prepare some practical examples of projects you did during your study that are relevant for the position and ask questions about the company and internship activities.

[white relic]

If you know someone in your program who's already done the same interview, maybe they could tell you what to expect? Assuming you trust them to not sabotage you

Try not to stress about it too much. Not every interview will lead to an offer and that is OK. I found it helpful to think of all my interviews as basically practice. You learn something about the company, about interviewing, maybe about yourself, and you'll be better at it next time.

[pastel thunder]

lmao

and i already hate applying on company website, they want us to enter experience, education every time'

[violet sable]

hello I need a coder is anyone available

[buoyant seal]

When you ask for help, make sure you provided goal you wish to achieve, provided real goal what you are trying to achieve also.
Code examples you made so far, most important in text format (screenshots are very bad, and should not be used unless absolutely necessary). If it has errors, provide errors too.
Basically show what you already tried so far, that you already Googled your problem and not knowing how to find solution for sure.
Then ask for help with explaining what exactly you struggle with moment
see this guide for more information: https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources/guides/asking-good-questions/

Not really #career-advice topic. Ask somewhere in #user-interfaces or #tools-and-devops
P.s. also why would u wish alternative to pyautogui

[prime python]

Hello everyone. I have a question for you all. Currently I live in Turkey and I am learning about back-end web development. My learning going good and I have good plans for projects and I am just started to put my stuff on Github. But here is the thing. Because of programming jobs are paying little in here I want to find a remote junior back-end developing job. The people I saw on online always say that "yes you can find" but when I actually look for job in websites like glassdoor, indeed, linkedin and etc. I can't find anything. The jobs are requiring unrealistic standards or there are no job at all. So my question is how can I find a remote junior back-end web developer job in another country (US and EU preferred) while there is no job ads? What is the way I should aproach. Even tho I have no work experience how should I be able to get hired or find a job? (BTW I am still in learning process so I am gonna start looking job to apply in close future like 6 month to a year. If you don't want to keep this feed busy with my problem feel free to write my private)

[near ocean]

Do you have a degree? Junior remote positions arent that common from what i've seen

[sacred timber]

hey guys i was wondering is creativity essential when taking AI as a course?

[buoyant seal]

Usually finding remote jobs is open starting from 2-3 years of experience. Before that... Ergh, u know, not very big chances.

[prime python]

I am currently student in management information systems. which is I will be done in 1.5 years

[prime python]

The thing is they ask same kind of experience from on-site jobs in my country as well

How much contributing open-source effects?

[white relic]

what do you mean by unrealistic standards? Like there are no entry level jobs?

[buoyant seal]

U have easiesr chances to get local job because u have already work permissions and knowing native local language. Plus juniors are more welcome in office

Chances for people to resolve those issues for junior remotely Internationally are way less.

[vapid jay]

uwu

[prime python]

They want multiple language or multiple libraries with more than 1 year experience

[prime python]

The problem is all the jobs are in different city and the salary is not enough for me to move to that city. the salary is not covering my life expenses such as rent, food and etc. I need at least 1 friend with me which is not possible currently.

[buoyant seal]

During interview end u can negotiate your salary to be above that threshold.

Surely junior salary like 500-600 euro should be enough to survive, yeah?

Find cheaper renting offers, get not expensive food (cook on your own)

[prime python]

Even that is more than what they offering. Generally 3000 dollar for a month will be so good for me. The best thing I have in my hand is that. I was planning to ask just for 3000 dollar even if they were offering more. But the thing is I don't see job ads so I can apply

[prime python]

That's the problem man. The cheapest houses in Istanbul is 550 euro. Below that money the house is a mess.

But I got what you mean. It's hard to find job in my shoes

So what are other things I can try?

[near ocean]

Thats normal, i live in London and know many people aged 25+ that live in houseshares for cost reasons, I used to as well
Nothing wrong with it, youre still a student

[prime python]

Turkey is way more different than London. It's not common to share house. finding job is easier than finding a shared house

[near ocean]

Apparently not as you suggest

[sleek egret]

so share an apartement

[near ocean]

If a normal IT job cant cover costs for living alone how is it normal for turks to find houses alone?

[prime python]

Same as houses

[sleek egret]

people almost never live in a house alone, multiple people (a family) live in a house

[prime python]

there is usually more than one salary in the home

[near ocean]

So they should stay with their family then, problem solved

[sleek egret]

this idea that people in their 20's working their first or second job should be able to easily afford their own place is rather new

[prime python]

No it doesn't there is no programming company in where I live

[sleek egret]

of course, the housing market in the industrialized world isn't well suited to roommates either. so they sorta get screwed from both sides

[near ocean]

I dont know anyone that can do that apart from 2 quant friends that make 100k+
And one of them recently moved in a houseshare to save money

[sleek egret]

if I wasn't clear, I was talking about expectations, not what eventually happens

[near ocean]

Yea i know
Expectations rarely match reality

[prime python]

The thing is Turkish echonomy is so bad. So the things you guys are talking about would make sence if I was living in better countries like us or Europe

But anyway thanks for your answers guys I got the answer I needed

[sleek egret]

yet most turks have a roof over their heads, do they not?

[buoyant seal]

3000 dollars is middle rank Dev salary in third world countries.

I would say it is better to expect salary from 300 to 1000 for juniors with less than a year of experience.

Check local job offers to verify that

[prime python]

Not warm ones

[near ocean]

Cant have everything in life

[sleek egret]

bit harsh there, brah

[prime python]

Well not in here. 1.057 usd for mid devs in here

[near ocean]

I guess, but the sooner people realise the easier it'll be on them when life shoulder checks them to the ground

I doubt that theres no software jobs in turkey, a country of 100mil

Is it actually true or do you just not want to apply to them because the pay is low compared to EU

[sleek egret]

places like Turkey, only the gov and largest companies will have in-house software dev teams

otherwise, you have outsource contract shops. the # of "software companies" will be quite low relative to population

[prime python]

No we have. But not in my city.

[near ocean]

Its easier to find remote jobs in your own country than remote jobs in different countries

[sleek egret]

then you'll have to move. better to move while young when it's easier

[prime python]

Yes I the pay is low and I want to work in a place like us or eu

[sleek egret]

getting work permits in the US is quite difficult

[near ocean]

Getting an EU visa is probably just as hard

[sleek egret]

I suspect EU is getting more difficult lately

unless you have a masters or PhD in a field with very high demand. or relatives in the US

[prime python]

Well I already consider looking at them but they are still not quite good. I really hate Turkish working ethic. But that doesn't mean I don't want to work in those places.

[white relic]

when the economy is bad, people sometimes have to take jobs that aren't good

[prime python]

I see. Well I need to take my training into another level then

[sleek egret]

you'll note I didn't say "highly skilled". practically speaking, formal post-graduate degrees are required.

[near ocean]

Having a masters doesnt guarantee you a visa btw, lots of people in the EU have great education

[sleek egret]

the US gov does not do testing to evaluate skill level

[sleek egret]

US too. first dibs are to foreigners who got their degree in the US

root: essentially the "skilled" route works like this: you get the job first. then the company that hired you works the immigration system for you (well, really a consulting firm). it'll cost them a few $10's of k in legal fees to get you in.

it's essentially impossible to get the work permit without a job offer already in place.

(this is the US, the EU may differ)

[buoyant seal]

Ergh, in my country and extended to international level of third worlds
Mid rank is from 1200 to 3500.

[sleek egret]

this is why most immigrants come in via the family route. if you have close family in the US already, you can often get a visa if the family can show they can support you until you get on your feet. sorta.

[carmine flame]

Any job portals or openings on here?

[analog sun]

No, we are not a job board

[gritty rivet]

Look at the channel description, there are two links

[vapid jay]

Same is for EU. It does depend which country but the fee to get a work permit isn't that high. The only thing is the company needs to be accredited and this does take time and money

[sleek egret]

then that's much easier than the US

the federal gov reviews requests and needs to approve them. the company has to make a case that they can't find a person with similar skills in the US

[near ocean]

Thats the case here too, an EU country needs to justify their efforts in looking domestically for a suitable candidate before they take on someone international

[sleek egret]

i see

[buoyant seal]

Same in Canada :/

[hidden plume]

what road map should i choose to become a web developer?

can someone give me guidedence

[buoyant seal]

Have u already graduated university?

[hidden plume]

i just pass 12th

[buoyant seal]

Well, good path would be applying to CS degree, while having self education in addition to get job ready for web dev.

That is at least if u wish professional level of software development. Backend development / DevOps engineering

Making stuff in WordPress(CMS) requires no higher education and sometimes is named as web dev too

Frontend development is somewhere in between preferably nice to have higher education but not too much obligatory

[hidden plume]

I am on 3third year of my polytechnic diploma in CSE
i started it in 10th class

[sleek egret]

what is CSE? what is a polytechnic diploma? what nation are you in? educational standards vary quite widely between nations.

[hidden plume]

india
CSE mean computer science and engineering

[buoyant seal]

Is it regular school or smth? How is it translated to balona educational system?
Is it related to higher education?

[hidden plume]

in india we can apply for diploma after 10th

[sleek egret]

sounds like a high school specialization

[buoyant seal]

Ergh, we need Indian someone to make sense of it

[hidden plume]

in my contry python mostly use as backend (for web dev)

for front end they use html css js

[buoyant seal]

Everywhere in the world it is used mostly for backend and data science + machine learning too

[buoyant seal]

Same as everywhere in the world. Except people also augment js with Typescript

[hidden plume]

after watching to many videos on youtube i created this path to learn web development
python > DSA > django > Database

is this right?

[sleek egret]

the path is university

especially if you happen to not live in the US/EU

[knotty drum]

Is python used for backend?

I thought js was the standard

[sleek egret]

the terms "front end", "back end" and "full stack" are used primarily by people involved in web development. which is itself only a subset of all software development.

and yes, python is used for the web "back end". but also for a ton of other things

[delicate bane]

peeps abuse this loophole so much

[sleek egret]

true. all I meant was that it's more than just "submit a form and pay a fee"

[delicate bane]

i getcha

[buoyant seal]

University + Self education (where self education for web dev can be
my map, mostly backend oriented with devops flavour https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/blob/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
pure pythonic map: https://github.com/amaargiru/pyroad
all popular maps: https://roadmap.sh/ , for all specialzations, frontend, backend, devops, data science, data engineering and etc
generic software development knowledge for all software dev related positions map: #web-development message )

[obtuse grove]

@hidden plume what's DSA

[coral vine]

I got a third interview request todayyy 😮

Also I did a bad thing but I got way too shy and asked for an interview deadline extension

[peak halo]

data structures and algorithms

[coral vine]

So I will have to do the 2nd interview and the 3rd interview Dx

[sullen elm]

Is B.Design, Interface designer/UI-UX a good career choice ?
In the terms of pay, exposure

[coral vine]

My friend says it’s bad cuz I’m showing the company that I’m not that interested but rly I was super interested in that 2nd company 😞

I do a thing where I forget what I want to say because I’m so nervous but I know how to do all this stuff technically. Just not enough social skills.

[deft herald]

That's definitely a learned skill for some people. I feel like half of the battle with interviews is just being confident in yourself

[deft herald]

Sure. Is it a good choice for you specifically? no idea

[hidden plume]

study of Data structure and algorithms help in logic building

[coral vine]

I got even more self conscious after practicing mock interviews. My friend has practiced 50x and it was so clear that they would hire her over me in terms of social skills. It just surprised me what the competition really looks like.

And just thinking about it being 100 apps on indeed and 100 apps on LinkedIn. They must have at least 200 apps and just so competitive. 😞

But one good thing is that I’ve been getting a lot better for each time I have practiced. It’s just sooo intimidating once I start comparing myself to others who are way better. And knowing that there are people way better than my friend too! Dx

[deft herald]

Yeah, there's always a bigger fish. You can only hope that those more qualified than you are either over qualified or don't match the sort of soft-skills they're looking for

[coral vine]

Thanks. I’m thinking I have a shot if they are looking for something like a junior that they can train up and not pay as much starting out, who will tend to stay at the company longer .. type of thing. I think that’s why I got the interviews because I really do know these technical things ! But new grad

[sullen elm]

whaat are the scopes and all ?

[hasty copper]

hey
can anyone tell me how to get admissions in public universities for bachelors degree? btw im from india...
I heard that we get free education in germany is that true?? and how do we apply for universities in german coz we aint know about anything😅 so can anyone personally guide me ?? please.

[maiden fog]

excellent thank you. I am totally unqualified for an application analyst position, but it's just an internship so hopefully they don't drill me on too much technical information. I am worried I will be walking into a 4 hour technical interview

[maiden fog]

nobody else has taken it yet to my knowledge. I was one of 3 people to be picked to apply, and my professor said i was the most qualified based off resume (i put my homelab stuff on there) and not sure who else was given the opportunity

what do i say when they ask about my weaknesses? My main weakness I would say is procrastination but it is something i am very well aware of

[deft herald]

totally unqualified for an application analyst position, but it's just an internship
If it's an internship, then you're qualified

[coral vine]

Crazy but I got my 4th interview today just now o.o

Ok I need to muster the courage to do 3 interviews back to back now. Maybe drink alcohol. I’m overthinking all of this :/

[deft herald]

Don't say "procrastination" lol. How about "time management"

[maiden fog]

thank you @deft herald . My professor said I would be a good fit and she has seen my work, and knows my dedication and skill set

procrastination has made me a pro at time management tho, just have less of it (time)

[deft herald]

Maybe save the alcohol for after the interviews. Unless you have the balmer peak fine-tuned to your system

[coral vine]

It’s like when you play video games and you spec the stats too unevenly. My social stats and morale stats are low

[maiden fog]

heck yeah pogey! I have had 2 in the last 2 weeks myself, technical positions are few and far between here

[coral vine]

I’m talking about a game called disco elysium btw.

[dreamy shadow]

Your weakness should be something that's not a brag, but also not a red flag weakness. Also, you should have examples of how you are fixing/combating your weakness.

[chrome gate]

Don’t drink alcohol

[deft herald]

Also, you should have examples of how you are fixing/combating your weakness
Absolutely

[coral vine]

He tries to talk to a girl on the balcony but his social stats are so low it comes out as “I want to have fuck with you”. - disco elysium

[maiden fog]

the right lady that would work like a charm

[coral vine]

I’m experiencing something similar except what I’m doing is pushing interview deadlines and according to my friend, it shows I’m disinterested but I am soooo interested

[spark cobalt]

Why are you pushing interview deadlines?

[coral vine]

It’s all so new to me and I get shy and disoriented last second

[spark cobalt]

No company has the time to worry about your shyness

[maiden fog]

i get all shakey (might be the coffee)

[spark cobalt]

Just gun it, make sure you take notes of what went right and what went wrong, use that to improve for the next one.

You don't have the time to be constantly stressing over an interview, they don't have time to worry about shyness.

[maiden fog]

what if i go in there and trip over the chair

[coral vine]

I got super shaky this morning too. I just couldn’t believe that I pushed the deadline. I’ve always done everything on time. And never made excuses. But this time, I don’t know why. I just never seen this format or this level of competition. It’s just so new

[maiden fog]

@coral vine they called you in for an interview so they must like something you have to offer. you have the cards friend

[spark cobalt]

They assessed by your resume that you're qualified for the role, you just have to go there and prove your resume.

[pastel thunder]

are majority of startups CEO, CTO under 30? actually i might have to get LOR from them for mscs later, will it look skeptical to get LOR from someone my age, or too young?

[spark cobalt]

No, majority of startup founder/CEO/CTO are way older. Though the ones catching the news are typically younger ones.

[spark cobalt]

It shouldn't matter.

[pastel thunder]

when LOR is from someone known, it does matter, shouldnt this matter too

[maiden fog]

is bad form to ask the interviewers to give me feedback on my interview skills at the end?

[spark cobalt]

This stress is burning your time. Just get the interview over with.

[maiden fog]

i use humor as a coping mechanism with the stress. I usually get the interviewers to crack up laughing at least once during an interview

[spark cobalt]

I would not do it at the actual interview.

Interviewers generally want you to do good, and hope you do good. But if you don't, no one wants to tell a person they didn't think you're qualified for the role. (And no one certainly wants to lie)

What I typically do is aim for the interview to be conversational. Interviewers are human too, typically humans who'd rather be doing something else, so make their time worth it.

Nothing's special, fun, nor more anxiety inducing than standard drilled Q&A. This isn't school anymore

[maiden fog]

they have a linux programmer on staff that went to the same school as me 🙂

[spark cobalt]

Learn to socialize with anyone

[delicate bane]

eh your gpa or admissions test (if you have to take one depending on your country) or even work exp would matter more

[maiden fog]

I am pretty good at that for the most part, i've been around and met a lot of people, done a lot of things

[spark cobalt]

Then do it in the interview.

[pastel thunder]

ok

[spark cobalt]

They're not trying to assess a robot. They're trying to assess a human being they or one of their colleagues will spend stretches of time working with them.

Ignore the job for a moment, at least come out of the interview knowing you had fun, the interviewer had fun, hopefully learned a few things, etc.

[delicate bane]

my weakness is ive become jaded

[maiden fog]

my main weakness is personal hygiene

[spark cobalt]

The manager that sits next to me wears the most protruding perfume ever. Idk how to spell this shit

[maiden fog]

and general disregard for social norms

[coral vine]

My weakness is social corrrosion from too much studying

[delicate bane]

thats rip. im assuming your office doesnt have open seating either

[spark cobalt]

My weakness is I'm getting addicted to Minecraft

[maiden fog]

i haven't started minecraft because i have an addictive personality. i have been wanting to check out that library server though

[deft herald]

Classic Bender

[spark cobalt]

Oh I can sit wherever, it's just how I'm sitting right now is really convenient. The manager uses the product I solo dev everyday, so helping her is convenient. Behind me is my director, to the right of me is my mentor

[pastel thunder]

when i had no experience of interview, in my first one,
as the answer to "why do you expect form this job"
"i told them its give and take, and mutual relation"
lmao, i still cringe remembering that, but was very confident that day

[coral vine]

I’m a dungeon dweller

[maiden fog]

i'll go start my own county IT department but with blackjack and strippers

[spark cobalt]

Good answer, bad execution.

[dreamy shadow]

LOL, the answers my naive ass gave when I first interviewed...

[pastel thunder]

i even said its give and take, cringeeeeeeeeeeee

[delicate bane]

gotcha gotcha. when i went to nashville, there was hardly anybody using the fancy offices, even tho they were super nice lol

[maiden fog]

they have 2000 PCs, 80 servers and 90 facilities to take care of

[coral vine]

In my first interview, he asked about a project on my resume. I said nothing. Then he was like “it’s on your GitHub?” And I said yes. I’m way better now though 😮

[delicate bane]

the coffee machine was hella nice too

[maiden fog]

ya my github is full of super noob stuff but i am a noob

i'm just glad i know how to do a PR

[delicate bane]

@dreamy shadow from that one european DE. source was apparently indeed

https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/best-jobs-of-2023

[coral vine]

In my first mock interview.. “what’s your ideal working environment ?”

Says nothing.

But I have an answer to that question now xD

[pastel thunder]

how to git push without fork, lmao

[maiden fog]

indeed went way out of their way and traveled 20k + years into the future to bring this report of the best jobs

[dreamy shadow]

I know which one I'm going to be.

[maiden fog]

prompt engineer not on the list?

[dreamy shadow]

I don't think I've seen this question for a long while.

[delicate bane]

mental health NP? great. thats what my old manager left to finish his masters in.

[dreamy shadow]

A friend of a friend left DS to become a pilot lol

[maiden fog]

i have a bolo tie, should I wear it to the interview

[delicate bane]

i only know peeps that left DS for adjacent fields like DE, MLE, product, or SWE

or "specializations"

[maiden fog]

it's somewhat of a good luck charm, my dad made it silver/ivory engraved. the ivory is easily 120 years old so don't get all animal rights on me, he got it from some old timer

[dreamy shadow]

Speaking of product, our PM asking me what my bandwidth is for this week.

[true harness]

play factorio

[delicate bane]

bro im already having to do product-y things and i dont like it. if they bring me onto customer calls, i might quit

[dreamy shadow]

omfg, they broke my jupyterhub environment. This was a 30min task, now going to take days. WHY

[true harness]

the way i go about these questions is to have a few projects/experiences you can move the conversation towards and answer in terms of. a single project could have like 5+ different answers in it

[delicate bane]

me: "um, i have negative bandwidth. thanks."

[obsidian summit]

Hi, Guys

[coral vine]

Another mock interview:

Tell me how SDLC works.

I blanked out. And said it all in random order. And it’s silly because I’ve built several things using this cycle intuitively on my own 😞 it’s like I forget to breathe or have no experience showing others that I’m flawed o.o it’s breaking me ! Dx

[obsidian summit]

I just want to know if someone can help me sell an Ai

Please DM for more information

[true harness]

i got rolled by a question like this also. it was pretty bad, but i still got another interview lol.

[delicate bane]

!rule 6 9

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[delicate bane]

ayyy noice

[coral vine]

I have a bunch of scripts now! I am doing this method. But

The new thing is trying not to sound scripted, saying things faster and with more confidence

Also I do a thing where I become conscious of the competition and then I start having memory loss Dx

[obsidian summit]

Oh, Sorry but can anyone tell me the servers where i can get work

[spark cobalt]

You can try sites like LinkedIn or Indeed

[potent stratus]

also talk about how you're working on it. if you say you struggle with time management, add something you've tried plus something you're going to try. ie "I struggle a bit with time management, I've tried time blocking generally and it didn't help as much as I'd hoped, so I'm looking at the pomodoro method to see if that will work for me"

[spark cobalt]

The weakness itself generally isn't an issue, just how you're fixing it is. Everyone has problems.

Just don't come in saying "my weakness is I'm incredibly racist" or something that'll completely insta deny you

[maiden fog]

pomodoro eh

[spark cobalt]

@true harness How's the job hunting going?

[potent stratus]

it generally doesn't even matter what the weakness is (time management, attention to details, for a while my answer was that I struggle with knowing how to balance trying to find an answer myself vs when to ask for help) - they just want to see how you address something you're not great at, and that you have ideas for how to improve it

[true harness]

it's going 😩. i have a phone screen interview in 30 minutes. an interview with a person i'd be working with tomorrow. i got asked for availability at a third company but they haven't sent anything back for that yet (kinda sad tbh). honestly the only thing i changed in my resume was adding a hackathon 😳

[buoyant seal]

@true harness i think i already recommend book for that? Ergh, it is already from stage three
#web-development message
#web-development message
System Design and Analysis by Alan Dennis is cool 🙂

The book is long to read for sure though. With reading days only that and nothing else i managed to read it only in 1-2 weeks. Very comprehensive thick reading.

[spark cobalt]

V nice, keep it up and thanks for the update