career-advice

[true harness]

yes, you could send it

[delicate bane]

there are usually plenty of people here willing to provide their feedback if you anonymize it and post it here. it would also help to know which country/job market you are in since that can affect how resumes can look from country to country

[white relic]

so yeah, uh. Do your research, consider all the options.

[neat trellis]

No, it is legitimate; thankfully. I don't know how much long or how you even prove it, but, it reignite the tiny hope I had in my heart that was broken about 5 min. ago

Thanks a lot @white relic, appreciate it; and everyone as well - I'll try, I guess...

[wise vortex]

Thanks. I'm anonymizing it now. You know, it's pretty scary realizing how different school is from real world programming Dx

[true harness]

that's why internships are so valuable

[white relic]

Good luck!

[neat trellis]

Thanks, I feel like I'm gonna need a ton of it... o7

[true harness]

am i the only person who struggles with behavioral questions? i've been doing mock interviews with my friend, but i literally just have no idea how to answer questions like "name a time when you needed to think on your feet". i've decided to keep a few specific ideas/projects in mind and try to find situations in those projects i'm familiar with, but i always have trouble coming up with an answer on the spot.

any tips?

[neat trellis]

Sorry, but what is a behavioral question?

[true harness]

not a technical one, like, "why do you want to work here", or "name a time you misunderstood someone" or something

[wise vortex]

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate it. US-based.

[white relic]

What you describe is basically what I did when I was looking for jobs. I had a couple projects that I liked to talk about for one reason or another, and many stories can be told in response to multiple prompts. Like, everybody's had a team member who didn't pull their weight, and how you resolved that could be a story you tell in response to "What was a time you had a conflict with a team member" or "how do you deal with stress" or many other questions

The "think on your feet" one kind of stumped me for a few minutes when you posted it tbh, so I probably would have fumbled that one

I would probably have said something like "I try to avoid having to think on my feet", which is true, but kind of a non-answer

a clever person would respond "answering this question"

[true harness]

i did say that at first to my friend, lol

[true harness]

one thing i think you should avoid is having "Using x, did y". instead i think it's better to have "did y, using x". this way you avoid having a bunch of "Using x", and you have an ~action word~ to start the bullet point.

i think your third bullet in QA Analyst has a grammatical error? i think it should be "Executed ..." not "Execution". same with the second one, "Collaborated", not "Collaboration". Third bullet point on "Software Engineer" seems to have an error as well, it should be "Implemented warnings ..."

also since you have experience, i would probably reorder the sections a little bit. your education is less important than your experience at this point

wait, were you paid for your open source contributions? was the "Software Engineer" entry an actual job?

[white relic]

yeah I think I would rewrite that if it wasn't an actual job

OSS contributions are IMO more like projects than experience, so maybe put it under that heading
or give it its own section

[vapid jay]

hey guys where do i share my python codes?

[delicate bane]

you should add a date to your QA analyst job too

[wise vortex]

Great advice all. Thank you. I wasn't paid. I thought that counts as experience. I'll move it to projects. I didn't add the date for QA because it was years ago. Then I'd have gap years :/

[delicate bane]

hmmmm how far back was it

[true harness]

gaps aren't a problem unless the explanation is strange. experience is when someone pays you to code

[delicate bane]

if you did your education during that time, i dont see a problem

[wise vortex]

2018 Dx

[spark cobalt]

For skills, I'd remove stuff like Jira, TDD and whatnot. Or at bare minimum, push it at the end of the list and put the most appealing frameworks/technologies first.

[delicate bane]

yeah thats not a problem. you went to school in between that time

[wise vortex]

I also only worked there for 4 months. Does that look bad?

[true harness]

depends why. if you were only contracted for 4 months, doesn't matter. if you were fired for stealing something, probably matters a lot

[wise vortex]

I realized I wanted to pursue my education so I didn't stay longer. I quit.

[buoyant seal]

I think TDD skill is equal in weight to some framework, if not more 😛

[delicate bane]

DW you should plug the TDD book for the lurkers in the chat

[true harness]

that seems perfectly reasonable

[delicate bane]

[buoyant seal]

TDD Kent Beck book of course 📚 😁 🔖

[true harness]

gaps in employment history are not necessarily an issue. the issue comes when you can't give a good explanation why. education is a good explanation

[spark cobalt]

I don't think employers will look for something like that especially since they're aiming for entry level and 99.9999% not gonna make any sort of decisions like whether to do TDD or not, which is why I say frameworks is probably more important.

Maybe it'll be more worthy to put like an italics list after the names of the roles/projects containing more nitty gritty things like TDD

[wise vortex]

Ok cool, so after I fix the resume typos, tech ordering/removal, add experience date, then... that should help with getting more interviews? 😮

[true harness]

if you do it well enough :P

[spark cobalt]

I just don't know how TDD counts as technical "skill." You either do it or not.

[delicate bane]

i dont want to say it depends bc thats a classic eng response. but what type of role are you aiming for?

youll want to tailor your resume to those families of roles as much as possible

[wise vortex]

I want an internship, any role. Just my first job

[true harness]

internships are usually reserved for students, though

[spark cobalt]

It'll be easier if you center your resume around something like test dev or something like this

[delicate bane]

hmmmm i think thatll be tougher. you really should tailor your resume to roles

[wise vortex]

I want to work as a python backend engineer, but open to other things. Just want a first job Dx

[wise vortex]

Sadly, I didn't know how internships worked and thought it was what I apply for after school :/

[true harness]

some might take recent graduates as well, but generally they're for when you're in school

[spark cobalt]

Now you know.

[wise vortex]

Btw, every one of you gave stellar advice and I really appreciate it 🙂

[spark cobalt]

I wouldn't aim for temporary role though. Just go for full time. Many people with internships are struggling in this market as well.

[wise vortex]

By tailor to specific role, do you mean... write "Python Backend Engineer" all big on the resume? Then remove unrelated items like the iOS hackathon app, and bcd clock school project?

[true harness]

maybe not the first part, but the second part, yes. add projects related to the things in the job description, reorder the skills to put more relevant ones first

[spark cobalt]

You have Testing experience, probably best to use that to your advantage.

You can delve into DevOps path and add tests, CICD pipeline to your projects, have some fun working with Jenkins, Kubernetes, etc.

Can investigate different kinds of tests as well, unit, smoke, regression, etc.

[delicate bane]

yep peeps getting their offers rescinded

[spark cobalt]

DW is the person to ask for this though if you wanna investigate this path.

[white relic]

I wouldn't describe it as anything in particular

particularly not anything that would cause someone in an interview to ask a question that would reveal something unflattering

[vapid jay]

Hey guyys

People recommended me cobol is language is best in earning .

And what is the best way to earn online from code and from which language⁉️

[true harness]

that's probably true, but if you're not already experienced with cobol, you're probably not going to get a job with it

[coral vine]

Thanks for the resume review. I’m really impressed with all the advice I got! I’m going to fix up my resume and maybe come back in 2 weeks with an updated version. I’m going to explore more of the devops side of things. I do have a lot of fun with learning about automation scripts.

(It’s Pretzel. I’m on my non-work account, rushing to the gym. Ironic, isn’t it? xD)

[vapid jay]

What is main things required to learn cobol

[true harness]

a computer and an internet connection

[vapid jay]

I know that's a basic need

[hushed bramble]

No one will hire a Junior COBOL programmer tho, so not worth learning imo

[buoyant seal]

i usually prefer to recommend learning specialization and language high in demand AND with high amount of jobs
Javascript, Python, Java? stuff.

Java is pretty cool. Good for backend, desktop (for all OSes) and mobile development. 😁 and has big amount of jobs and will not die for long long time

[buoyant seal]

COBOL is like... for high earning... if you are 60+ years old experienced developer. Surely you can learn a lot... (in US only where banks haven't rid of its legacy), but you know... it is very niche recommendation. We can even name it straight Troll recommendation.

Usually better learning stuff in demand you know everywhere, with high amount of job positions? Salary would be certainly way lower, but u can be secure in steady amount of demand for this stuff.

[valid torrent]

My cousin forgets to give me a specific for IT jobs using python (programming language). He is busy at work.

[buoyant seal]

Data Science and Machine Learning
Backend Development,
Auxilary language for scripting in DevOps engineering (which we can be not naming since this profession is kind of extension of backend development in some sense. I mean not very entry choice).
QA. = Quality Assurance testing

[valid torrent]

Darkwind, I write my note after you give me advice. Thanks.

[buoyant seal]

https://github.com/amaargiru/pyroad here is quite full roadmap to python learning
https://roadmap.sh/computer-science (computer science) with generic stuff for everyone

And here you can find fluff you can learn for job specializations
https://roadmap.sh/backend
https://roadmap.sh/devops
https://roadmap.sh/qa
(data science) https://github.com/MrMimic/data-scientist-roadmap -> (machine learning) https://i.am.ai/roadmap/#note ( https://github.com/AMAI-GmbH/AI-Expert-Roadmap )

[valid torrent]

Okay.

[hushed bramble]

Could someone please review my CV? I'm applying for grad roles in the UK

Not specifically looking for a data science role but this was the CV I used to apply for a data science role so it's more focused towards that

[near ocean]

You dont need to list individual modules in your education, people know roughly what you studied

[hushed bramble]

Ah okay, it was something my careers service at uni advised me to do

[near ocean]

It takes up half a page of your cv and nobody really cares about how much you got at X module, just the overall degree grade

[hushed bramble]

okay cool, will get rid of that

[near ocean]

I would also shorten or completely remove the two irrelevant work experiences

Their bullet points are too short and take up too much vertical space

[hushed bramble]

yea can probably combine some bullet points

[near ocean]

I would also cut down on the objective statement, if you want it it should be short 1,2 sentences on the kind of role youre looking for, not a summary of the CV itself

You could probably hand pick a couple of your personal projects depending on the role youre applying to, so theyre relevant and also not as long a section as it is now

How come some of them have github links and others dont?

[hushed bramble]

Ah yes I wasn't allowed to make the repos public on those because the grades hadn't been released yet. I can add them now

[hushed bramble]

Thanks a lot for the advice!

[valid torrent]

@buoyant seal Which IT intern jobs without experience?

[buoyant seal]

aren't they all (intern positions) without experience. i thought intern jobs are assumed to be like that :|. You just need to be student, or nearly graduate, or already graduated from CS degree.

[valid torrent]

Oh.

[coral coral]

do you guys have tips for what classes I should take in high school for cs?

[near ocean]

Country?

[coral coral]

Canada

[valid torrent]

I didn’t go to college when I was 18. I’m 34 only.

[edgy flicker]

Hello, im not sure if this is the right place to ask but how do i get better at math? My goal in life is to become a Computer scientist or a Software engineer but ive been told that these fields require alot of advanced math. Im in Highschool Rightnow and ive never been worse at math un my entire life before this. Throughout primary school and even basic school inwas pretty decent at math but now im struggling with basic algebra and triganometry and even FRACTIONS but thats mainly due to a memorization problem. Ever since school started back after covid it feels like ive been getting dumber even my reading and listening comprehension skills have gone down tremendously and i dont know why. I will add that ive been a bit sleep deprived since primary. I also suffer from depression and anxiety since primary school till now as well, both diagnosed by proffesionals. This might also be problem and also the core cause of my memorization probelem. I recently failed some of my math assignments in order for me tho do Additional math next year which i really wanted to do but now that im thinking about it, i would have definetly failed the national exams a year later if i do get to do Additional math. So how can I get better at msths in order to not be stumped if i manage to study comp science in uni?
Tl/dr : How do i get better at math and comprehension ?

[deft herald]

Hey, unfortunately I don't think we're really qualified to help here. As you pointed out yourself, the root cause may in fact be your mental health and for that I can only suggest to seek out professional help. I really hope things get better for you

[buoyant seal]

I can recommend nothing except Manga guide to math subjects!

Manga guides to stuff 🙂 highly recommending for all people who wish to start with SQL too and finally understanding what is normalizations of 1/2/3 levels for example

Japaneses madness in the right... direction 🙂

[spark cobalt]

Lmao this is the best one yet

[valid torrent]

Anyone?

[smoky quest]

Related to the manga guide?

[valid torrent]

Yeah.

[patent grove]

do u guys think adding keywords and random common words like node.js, typescript, etc on a resume help u get interviews?

[smoky quest]

nope

[buoyant seal]

https://64.media.tumblr.com/59b16ef4ee5334868caa6a885665ecfa/tumblr_pgucju2gXV1xfddi7o4_500.gif
indubitably, because buzz words increase your capture by automated parsing systems 🙂
So helps at least for your quicker discover
P.S. but better be prepared during interviews to answer questions regarding those skills.

[zealous path]

It might help you pass the bot but might screw you over in an interview

[patent grove]

yeah thats what im thinking too, everyones lying on their resumes apparently just adding random ass buzz words cuz resume parsers

[smoky quest]

That's a myth though. They will be seen as buzzwords and hurt the resume more than help. And in the case they go through, then they may face questions they can't answer

[patent grove]

but the thing is....atleast u go through to even have a chance lmfao

[buoyant seal]

i say buzz words, but i mean writing skills you know and which are expected for this profession.
Like if u go for backend, don't forget to write SQL, and database engines you worked with
if any software dev position, mention Git

Many people enough can be not knowing even Git. Nice to know that interviewed person knows this

[smoky quest]

You don't because your experience won't reflect these skills.
And if you fail, it will be written as a note in your profile how the candidate has lied

[smoky quest]

That is not the intent of the question as I understood it.
I took "random common" as skills the candidate doesn't know about

[patent grove]

well obviously not an expert on it, but like if u know a little or anything about it is what i was trying to ask

like basic stuff like sql is a query language or something so write down sql lmao

[buoyant seal]

add it, if you are ready to answer questions regarding that.
I prefer to add stuff if i used it in at least 4 pet projects / or for several months in commercial environment (and also have read 1-2 books on a subject at least)

[smoky quest]

The rule of thumb is that anything on your resume is fair game for being questioned and asked about.
If you do have the skills and feel confident you can answer them, then yeah, that's what they are for

But if you put something in your resume that you can't answer questions on, the interviewer will then question everything else about you

[patent grove]

so what u have on ur resume u have 100% expertise in? @smoky quest

[smoky quest]

Things that are backed up by my experience and have built over the years

Anything on my resume can be asked about and I can answer

Honesty is the best policy

[patent grove]

so basically if u have C/C++ on ur resume, u can answer any question related to that? even all coding questions?

[smoky quest]

Yep, within the context of my experience

[patent grove]

they can ask any question though right, they dont look and ask only about ur experience. if u have C/C++ they can ask any question on it. can you answer every question on c/c++ concepts?

[smoky quest]

If you mean as in "every question in the possible universe ever", that would be childish.

[patent grove]

but u just said anything on your resume is fair game for being questioned though. so are you being completely honest?

[near ocean]

You should be able to answer a decent amount of questions regarding the things you put on your CV

[smoky quest]

It is fair game and I should be ready for it. It's also obvious I will only be able to answer them to the extent of my expertise and experience.
To that end, if you advertise C/C++ as a skill but can't answer basic questions, then what does that say about your other skills and general level of expertise?

[patent grove]

right, so basically even if u have a little bit of experience and basic knowledge u should put it on ur resume right? this will help u get past the AI parser

[smoky quest]

You can put anything you want on your resume. You have to consider how they will make you appear once tested

[near ocean]

It depends, if you've only used cat before I wouldnt exactly list Linux as a skill...

[smoky quest]

If someone comes in and put C/C++ as their skills but can't answer basic questions, then they will look like a joker and everything will be put into question. And on the interview notes, it will be marked how the candidate has severely inflated their skills and not worth the time in the future

[patent grove]

really? so basically if u fail 1 interview at a big tech company it lowers ur chances in the future?

[smoky quest]

That is not what I said

[patent grove]

so how would they distinguish between if the person is lying or just couldnt answer certain amount of questions?

[near ocean]

It depends on the questions?

[smoky quest]

So you may have been through 1 interview.
I have interviewed thousands of people by now. I have seen it all. I am not special, that's the norm after years in the industry

[near ocean]

If you list python and cant answer whether lists are mutable it looks worse than if you dont answer a graph theory question in python

[smoky quest]

And again, if a candidate can't answer basic questions on a skill they boast about, then obviously, they have grossly overestimated themselves

And to answer your question, all the interviews will have notes.
Next time you apply, the HM will see that you have interviewed and have access to these notes. These notes will affect their decision in giving you a chance or not.

For "normal" failures, most companies will kinda wait 6 months, as people can learn and prepare more. But if they see on their notes that you made up shit, then why wouldn't they want to interview you? That's wasted time they would rather spend on someone else

[patent grove]

so failing an interview really really badly will affect future interviews with that specific company u think?

[smoky quest]

it depends on the failure. It may or it may not

[near ocean]

If you fail by lying about your experience and skills then yes

[smoky quest]

Note that honesty is a big thing

[patent grove]

cant it be like u thought u were good until u entered the interview and u find out that ur actually not lol

[smoky quest]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, interviews are about demonstrated skills.
If you claim skills you clearly don't have, then that's obvious your resume has a problem and that puts into question everything else.

If you claim to have skills but only have "medium" level and not "expert", then that's fine. It will depend on the requirements for the roles

[near ocean]

Thats why youre asking here right? So that you dont end up getting caught with your pants down in an interview by completely overestimating your skills?

[smoky quest]

Like for instance, if you claim to know java, python and C/C++. But you can't even tell me the difference between a tuple and a list in python, then why would I believe you do have java and C/C++ as skills as well?

and like, again, the interviewers have seen a lot.
They already know about the tricks like putting freelancer/contract to hide gaps, to add extra skills the candidate doesn't have, or to make up buzzwords and experience.

Or having someone else outside of the camera view

[patent grove]

yeah ig i didnt mean like lie this badly but like if u worked with it twice or three times, maybe include it on the resume

[smoky quest]

You know yourself better than anyone else here.
The rule of thumb is that anything on your resume is fair game and you could be asked about. So it's about how it makes you look if you get asked about it and how it affects all your other skills you put on your resume

[patent grove]

i get that. but ive def failed an interview really badly before, hopefully they didnt say i was lying on my resume just cuz i couldnt get a python coding question correctly

[smoky quest]

It's unlikely for them to jump to conclusion

People who lie have a tendency to try to lie even more and dig their hole further

[patent grove]

what is ur position if u dont mind me asking? and how long have u been in this industry for?

[smoky quest]

I like to keep an air of mystery 😉

[patent grove]

oh okay cuz i was trying to use that as a validity marking of ur words, u said u interviewed like thousands haha

[near ocean]

This sounds more like a common sense thing than something you learn with years of experience
If you say you're familiar with X you should be able to answer at least basic questions regarding X

[near ocean]

Why do you think you failed really badly? What was the question about?

[patent grove]

well this is way before i actually was experienced in interviewing, it was my first ever interview. it was some tree question i got as an intern

[near ocean]

That just sounds like stress from a new experience, its fine and normal
The people interviewing you definitely noticed and im sure they wouldnt hold it against you in the future

Its very easy to tell if someone messed up cause of stress vs lying about their skills

[delicate bane]

yes please understand basic sql and normal forms before diving too deep into only using ORMs for DBs (data modeling is important)

[quaint merlin]

Same boat as you, just go to Khan Academy or some other website and start studying, as for comprehension, just read more books. I also have a memorization problem, ya gotta keep going, doing more excersises, etc.

[quaint merlin]

Nah I thought you were joking until I actually payed attention to the covers 😂

[buoyant seal]

I am always Sirius 😁

[edgy flicker]

This seems like it might be interesting as seeing how I already regularly read manga. 24.99 is crazy tho

[fierce snow]

What’s makes a good cover letter

[deft herald]

Do people still do cover letters?

[true harness]

not bland, actually tailored to the company

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome aboard!
Is there a question or topic related to #career-advice ?

[vital wyvern]

@smoky quest Trying to avoid drawing pygen too far off topic. You've alluded to being... heavily involved in a CS-related industry in past conversations, and that depth would lead me to believe you're probably not a junior or entry level employee. Without exposing your identity more than you're comfortable with, would you mind if I asked what it is you do professionally?

[smoky quest]

I build teams and products :p

[tawny silo]

Hello over there!

[vital wyvern]

Gotchya'. I appreciate the information you share here. Was just passively curious on how that information was being informed. (And that's not a 'well who are you to say "x"', reading it back I just want to make sure what I'm saying isn't inflammatory.)

[smoky quest]

not sure if it helps, but think about advanced tech startups that have a heavy tech component, be it in scale or depth

[vital wyvern]

It provides a bit more context. 🙂 Still getting the lay of the land around here, I was snuck up on by someone that works for a company I highly revere within the Discord, and it's made me realize that there's probably a pretty healthy collection of industry knowledge concentrated in this Discord.

[smoky quest]

yeah, there are a few experienced folks around

godly geek to not cite them

nope. There is a component left to chance, but that isn't the main driver

Hi and welcome aboard!
Also !rule 9

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[smoky quest]

You are describing the exchange of services for compensation

np

[severe bridge]

why would it not be allowed to do paid work in here

[near ocean]

Do you mean why its in the rules? Probably a better channel to ask would be #community-meta
I imagine it must be impossible to regulate and to protect the members from scams or exploitative work they are banned

[zealous path]

This server is more for helping or learning, I’m sure there is a server to exchange details if you need or wish to provide coding services.

[wide barn]

I've been having some trouble getting back to the job market, after a long period away due to some personal issue. Now I've been offered to apply for a free education to help me cement my place in a job.

To apply to the program, I have to be quite specific in which education I want to take.. and I'm not 100% sure, as I'm not 100% sure what I want to do when I'm done.
I like programming, I think Data Science sounds amazing (I've worked with Excel and data most of my professional life) and I like to automate stuff.

These are my options (as I see them):

1. AP Graduate in Computer Science (2½ years)
2. Bachelor in Computer Science (3 years. I studied this ages ago, and I'm not sure I can go through all that theory, discrete math, linear algebra etc. again)
3. Bachelor in Data Science (3 years. No idea what to expect)

My thinking is that I'd have an easier time with computer science background to break into data science (should I want to), than studying data science and break into dev jobs. Am I wrong?
If not, that leaves the 2 Computer Science educations.

But which?

I'd love any take you have on, comments, inputs etc.

[white relic]

what's an AP graduate?

[wide barn]

It's also called Academy Profession

not sure if it's used outside of Denmark, but it's an education that's more vocational than theoretical (like usual university degrees)

[white relic]

I did not major in either computer science or data science, but my impression is that DS is if anything heavier on the mathematical/theory side than CS.
And DS is more often a gateway to getting a higher level degree. So if you're planning to go into industry after your B.S., you might want to go for CS

[wide barn]

Thanks.. that was my thinking as well. I have no problems with theory as long as it has a use, but my experience from University is that we learned theory just to learn theory, which we didn't have a practical use for... like how to calculate planes in a 3D space etc (1st semester, while we were still learning about loops etc)

[white relic]

idk anything about that, it's not something we have in the US.

you have to learn the theory first so when you learn the practice you're not just copying stuff from the book

[wide barn]

problem was that we didn't practice the theory.. we were just expected to learn it and then on to the next subject

[vestal kettle]

I think there is more Maths in Data Science than in CS. (Don't really know about that as I only took the mandatory Maths in CS and I saw a lot of Maths stuff in DS courses outline)

[wide barn]

Thanks Duck.. sounds like I should aim for CS and do math courses on my own time.

[vestal kettle]

Just to be sure, check the DS courses outline before swallowing my words

[wide barn]

ofc 🙂

[peak halo]

The term "data science" is much newer than "computer science", and is likely to decline in popularity going forward. So if you decide to get the BSc in Data Science, you'll need to be especially sure that it will impart the skills that you need.

It might also be that the Data Science program involves AI, in which case you'd cover calculus, linalg, etc. in even more depth than you would in a computer science program. And it's probably just as well that it does, because having AI experience would open a lot of doors for you as well.

[wide barn]

thanks Stelercus - do you think Data Science and Computer Science will melt together, or just that there will be less need for data scientists in the future?

[peak halo]

It's only the term "data science" that I think will decline. I think the need to be able to analyze data programmatically will remain for the foreseeable future, and that the popularity of AI will wax and wane as it has for the last few decades.

[wide barn]

ahh.. that makes sense

[knotty drum]

@smoky quest do you get CS or programming jobs without a major?

Oh idk why it tagged rec_error there, sorry!

[white relic]

Depends what you call a "CS or programming job" I guess. I am an electronics researcher. I do a lot of programming, almost every day. But my work product is research, not code per se.

There are a lot of people in similar jobs.

[knotty drum]

Like...going to LinkedIn and looking up "python" and applying 😂

[white relic]

But I do have a degree in engineering. I took core CS classes and math and stuff, it just wasn't my major

[zealous path]

Is this government sponsored or a company?

[wide barn]

government

[zealous path]

Pog, last thing you want is a free course that locks you in an X year contract

[wide barn]

true

[brave bridge]

how old are you

and do you have another degree alrdy?

[wide barn]

43... I studied CS 20 years ago, but dropped out due to depression

[vivid otter]

hi guys im 17

im about to graduate HS ,im going to study Engineering Physics ,is that a good degree?

[leaden jasper]

Engineers that end up doing programming 🙌

[vivid otter]

hi guys im 17
im about to graduate HS ,im going to study Engineering Physics ,is that a good degree? or should i choose something else

[wide barn]

good for what?

[vivid otter]

prospect,salary,flexibility ,demand etc

[zealous path]

Wrong mindset.
Don’t do a job because you think it’ll get you nice things.
Do a job you know you’ll enjoy.
Doesn’t matter if you get paid $1,000,000/month if the job is not something you wanna do cause either you’ll burn out or get fired.

[vivid otter]

man i dont think i want to end up homeless

i like pure biology, but im going to be homeless ngl

[wide barn]

lol.. the world is not black and white.. you don't have to choose between ZOMG PAY (but I hate the job) and unemployment

[zealous path]

You can just get a job in a field that you enjoy that pays the bills

I can’t afford to have a lavish lifestyle but I get by.

[sleek egret]

generally speaking, university is not a trade school and one should not expect it to be structured as such. most better universities expect their students to learn the "practical" skills (in this case programming basics, various computer languages, etc) on their own while the university teaches the foundational theory.

[vivid otter]

doesn't mean i hate it duh ,i got 93 for my latest physics report card , i just prefer Biology, but it doesnt pay bills

[zealous path]

I’m sure there’s a LOT of bio jobs that pay well. Generally STEM pays well

[vivid otter]

Like Biomed engineering?

[sleek egret]

the general thinking is that since "practical skills" are something that any average joe can learn, the smarter people that are in their university should be able to pick it up on their own

[vivid otter]

the only one that pays well is Medical doctor ,that atleast where i live

[sleek egret]

I guess that depends on your definition of "pays well"

[zealous path]

To get a better understanding:
-what roles have you looked at
-what salary range do they provide
-what salary would you like to make

[vivid otter]

i'm not in the US or Europe- so maybe we can't really synchronize about salary quantity

[sleek egret]

You might want to add, "how much effort are you willing to expend"

[zealous path]

We can still figure out why you’re saying “won’t pay the bills”

[sleek egret]

It's like becoming a medical doctor. probably a good 1/3 to 1/4 of the population is smart enough to do it. but most of those people are unwilling to put forth the extreme amounts of work involved to get their MD.

[vivid otter]

cause its just not

[sleek egret]

so how do the people with those jobs survive?

[vivid otter]

Even mechanical engineering can took Biology job,like biomed eng

[vivid otter]

they dont(most of them)

[sleek egret]

they die?

[vivid otter]

unemployment and minimum wage

[sleek egret]

nurses, radiology techs, pharmicists, EMT's, etc are all dead where you live?

[vivid otter]

indonesia, that job doesnt pay well

[sleek egret]

wait, how are they unemployed if they have a non-doctor bio job?

no one says they pay well. I'm just questioning the characterization of "won't pay the bills" 🙂

[vivid otter]

they work in other fields duh

[sleek egret]

ok

[vivid otter]

pay well = bills paid ,im sure thats common sense

[sleek egret]

uh huh

[wide barn]

I have no idea about how it is in Indonesia, but here "bills paid" can be minimum wage (although Denmark doesn't have a minimum wage, we just have strong unions).

On the other hand a well paying job can't pay all bills if you're living in excess.

[sleek egret]

I'm a bit hesitant to put words in applejuice's mouth, but I suspect by "pay the bills" he means the equivalent of a western middle-class lifestyle or better. which most people in indonesia cannot afford. not just the ability to pay for food and have a roof over your head.

again speculating, but perhaps overtly expressing an aspiration to a lifestyle that is far above the norm is not looked upon positively in his culture. just a guess.

[vivid otter]

yeah i mean my dad, did'nt went to study his favorite subject, instead he studied computer science and get paid really high-

[vivid otter]

in oil company 😛

[wide barn]

if you haven't tried coding yet, I'd suggest you give it a go with one of the many online courses.. maybe you find that you actually like it, and have a flair for it.

If you do, studying CS would be a good idea.

[vivid otter]

haha funny

[sleek egret]

why is that funny?

[vivid otter]

i actually developed a game with python ,loook https://www.instagram.com/p/Co1utzYJNcY/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

archivedairy

🏡Colony Resource management game
with Python 🐍

Instagram

[sleek egret]

that's nice

I don't see any options for violent conflict in that game though. you need that to sell in the west 🙂

[vivid otter]

youre joking right

[sleek egret]

not at all

[vivid otter]

it looks shitty

[sleek egret]

oh, by "sell" I simply meant "appeal to"

sorry, but I've been infected by capitalism and it's warped my brain

[vivid otter]

oh by the way ,dw im going to study Biochemistry later ,after i got the Engineering degree

[wide barn]

so.. you obviously know how to code.. but you love biology, but is asking about Engineering Physics (which I'm not sure why you do on a Python discord, buy maybe the term doesn't translate well to danish education)...

Tbh I'm not quite sure what you're looking for.

[sleek egret]

bioinformatics is a pretty hot field right now

[vivid otter]

Engineering covered all subject of Engineering and Science ,Look it up

[sleek egret]

protein folding simulations are used for new drug development. I suspect AI techniques will be used quite heavily there soon.

[wide barn]

obviously I did that before I asked....

[vivid otter]

there

[sleek egret]

We don't need to look it up many of us have finished university with engineering degrees

[white relic]

Be aware that generalist degrees often don't prepare you for a career in any particular (sub)field.
Engineering physics is more of an applied physics degree than an engineering one. Doesn't mean you'll be unemployable, but it does imply something about what kind of jobs you'll be looking at. That's why Hillgrove expressed puzzlement about what you're looking for.

[valid torrent]

Cool game looks good.

[valid torrent]

Wow. I’m 34.

[knotty drum]

Im 27 and feel it's too late for me to go through another degree D:

theres an MIT intro course to ML that i wanna take tho

[delicate bane]

why do you feel that way? also have you considered masters programs if you already have a bachelors + work experience

[knotty drum]

ye but my bachelors is unrelated to programming, and have 0 work experience programming heh

either i work on the best portfolio ever and finish freecodecamp or cs50 or something

or find a short course somewhere so i have a cert

[sleek egret]

I've worked with programmers who have majored in everything from religious studies to music

[knotty drum]

thats encouraging

id love to combine programming with music

maybe my calling is to make a rhythm game

[sleek egret]

there are many people working as programmers in the music equipment, music editing, music synthesis, music distribution and other areas of business related to music. I'd guess literally 100's of thousands of such programmers, if not more

[knotty drum]

Yeaa for sure ❤️

[zealous topaz]

if i'm strong with actual project works but sucks with interview questions, is there way to appeal this to interviewer? or is sharing my project and explaining in depth is the only way? (i.e. I can explain all the steps I took in ETL process, but have trouble solving coding questions without documentations)

And has there been case when interviewer asked you more than 2 languages? (for example, java and python) How did you manage with syntaxes? If I'm confused with syntaxes am I allowed to explain in pseudo-language rather than actually coding and making it work?

[peak halo]

if i'm strong with actual project works but sucks with interview questions, is there way to appeal this to interviewer?
What kinds of interview questions do you think you suck with? technical, behavioral, or both?

[zealous topaz]

it's coding so technical

[peak halo]

also, "syntax" is just the rules for what order the symbols can go in a language. you can't write code in a language if you don't know it's basic syntax, even if only implicitly. so if you get to an interview, and you don't know the basic syntax for the languages they expect you to use, then you are probably not a good fit for that role.

[smoky quest]

You shouldn't need documentation to do coding questions. If the coding question requires documentation, that would be the type of activity allowed during the interview.

In the case of multiple languages, it doesn't matter as long as you get the essence right. That said, if you advertise yourself as an expert in a language, you may be held to a higher standard

Note that if you don't feel comfortable, you can always ask to use an IDE and many interview tools like coderpad will have the ability to execute and validate your code

[true harness]

it seems like you just need to practice more

[proud steeple]

Hello everyone. I am planning to start and become a python expert. I am an accounting but I loved more the whole process data with excel/Google sheet. I always try to make sheet that solves on their own. I want to do a course. What kind of computer do you guys recommend?

[peak halo]

you can ask for hardware suggestions in one of the off-topic channels, but anything other than a chromebook should do.

[proud steeple]

Ahah a chrome book is what I have 😂

[buoyant seal]

and ChromeOS is Linux system in the end? wow. impressive, fine choice

🍷😎

[proud steeple]

Well my old computer died. And a Chromebook is perfect for email/administration stuff.

[buoyant seal]

why not to use your Chrome book then 😁 Certainly should be enough for Google Sheet to be run by Google supported OS.

[peak halo]

please continue this thread in #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

[proud steeple]

Oh sorry didn't realise it was on both.

Career question. How is working on python? In a work environment? Can it be mixed with something else (like accounting) or is it a full time job?

[peak halo]

Non-developers who use computers in their work can use Python to be more productive, if that's what you're asking.

[deft herald]

There are lots of tech jobs which require skills in Python but it's not the main priority of the job; just a means to an end

Like you may be a firmware dev for embedded devices (working in C/C++), but some of the build tools/test framework you use is all built in python

[smoky quest]

Also to what to what was said, you never write code in a vacuum. Even if your job is to be a software engineer, the code is just a mean to an end, not the end in itself. So the code written is always in the context of a domain and a problem to solve

[proud steeple]

How much space do you need to do such a feat?

[proud steeple]

It seems python is the main tool and the rest is bonus (or depending of the program used)

[proud steeple]

Yeah I get that. When I do my Google sheet it is always the what I can do to not do everything. But still get the job done. And so I can focus on others things

[sleek egret]

yawns

[true harness]

are there things i should avoid talking about during a behavioral interview? like, is talking about past interviews ok?

[delicate bane]

hmm is there a reason for referencing past interviews

also obv you should avoid controversial topics but thats common sense

[true harness]

idk for general questions about handling stress or something. like, "name a time you needed to perform under pressure" or something

[delicate bane]

ehh idk if i would use past interviews as an example for that question

[white relic]

I don't think it is generally a faux pas to mention having done other interviews, but for that particular example, it's not the best

[true harness]

yeah, you're probably right about that. i couldn't come up with one on the spot lol

[white relic]

interview pressure is different than like... everyday job pressure

[deft herald]

YOu can use school examples

[delicate bane]

or even project deadline pressure

[deft herald]

like "i was working on a group project for whatever class and the other members didn't deliver their stuff in a timely manner" or whatever

[delicate bane]

what, you guys dont end up doing everything yourself? just me? jk. unless?

[true harness]

it seems that way sometimes 😔

[white relic]

to the original question, avoid talking about your personal life, even if it's not controversial, or anything that the interviewer isn't legally permitted to ask you about. Volunteering information they aren't supposed to ask for can put the interviewer in a difficult position

[true harness]

are these questions meant to be answered wrt technical experience? like programming projects, school work? or does this depend on the question ig. or is it that the specific situation doesn't matter as much as the result?

[white relic]

ideally, in the question about performing under pressure, you'd tell a story that shows how you dealt with pressure at a time in your past, which is supposed to illustrate how you can be expected to deal with pressure at the job you're currently interviewing for

I wouldn't try to overthink it too much, if you had a conflict with someone about how to manage your church softball league or whatever, that's not necessarily a bad example either

honestly this kind of thing just gets a lot easier when you have more experiences to refer to

[true harness]

this seems to be a slight chicken and egg problem 😩. thank you for the advice though. perhaps my biggest weakness is "overthinking things". definitely a step up from "perfectionist"

also is there value in sending thank you emails

[white relic]

I want to say no, but it probably depends on the person and maybe also the company a bit.

[dreamy shadow]

If I ever learned anything from work, it would be: Don't volunteer info. Don't say anything that is even remotely bad or negative. Everything is sunshine and rainbows.

[white relic]

I have gotten 1 or 2 thank you emails after interviews. The people who sent them weren't hired. But it could be that sending one could remind the interviewer to send their feedback about you to the hiring manager / HR

I feel like it doesn't make a difference, but maybe that's partly because I want an excuse not to write them.

Similarly with cover letters.

[true harness]

did they have any effect on your decision?

[dreamy shadow]

Probably not, life's not a Disney movie or the bs they sprout on linkedin

[white relic]

In one case I specifically remember, I had already given my (positive) feedback to the hiring manager, but the person was nevertheless not hired

[true harness]

I've heard to send thank yous from real humans too, from at least 2 companies so ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[digital fjord]

I have sent thank you emails, though I would have probably gotten hired regardless.

[white relic]

I think I recall another one who sent a thank you, but they were a poor candidate and the thank you wouldn't have affected my (negative) feedback even if it did arrive in time

those might be the only 2 times it has happened.

I'm not sure how many people I've interviewed, sometimes it was part of a panel, so I probably wouldn't get a thank you from that

[true harness]

that means it made the candidate stand out 👀👀👀

[white relic]

that's one way to look at it

[true harness]

I was under the impression that a cover letter might be good for "non traditional" applicants to help explain their situation

[dreamy shadow]

Cover letter =>

[white relic]

Yeah, I think it may be worthwhile in situations where your resume doesn't show the whole story. But IMO people are always going to go to the resume first and only read the cover letter afterward, if at all.

about half of them will allow you to upload "extra pages" or something like that, which can include a cover letter

I mean I think it's probably boring when the candidate is straightforwardly qualified for the position, because there's not much to put in a cover letter that isn't completely redundant with the fact that the candidate is applying for the job

"please consider me for this position" lol yeah I guessed that from the fact you're applying to it

but maybe it's not totally useless if your qualifications are unusual or require additional explanation

[dreamy shadow]

Tell that to the companies that require one

[true harness]

for me, i wrote a few since most of the internships i'm applying to are like "please be a junior or senior 🥺", and i think i'm qualified

[vapid jay]

im working at my first job at this massive company and i cant get over how slow everything moves and how hard it is to do things and how none of my coworkers seem to be freaking out about how slow everything is

[true harness]

yes. it takes like 30 seconds to reorder fields on a resume

[white relic]

When I was a fresh graduate I had three or four versions of my resume for different kinds of applications, and I would tweak them as necessary.

[true harness]

that seems incredibly dumb

huh, i thought you were preparing for junior jobs

[white relic]

big companies can be like that sometimes yeah. It's different than being in school

[worldly hound]

Where can I find a mentor? I live in a small town without any real tech community on meetup or at the colleges..

[true harness]

is it common to ask questions about like "company values" or the "company mission" and such? i've got "why do you want to work here" ready, but the other two are kinda 🥴 to answer

[spark cobalt]

I've only gotten interviews from smaller places and never been asked about company values/missions. Granted, I don't have a huge data sample to go off of.

[true harness]

except the question about what the company did, right

[spark cobalt]

That was asking about the product

More of what the company is to begin with, before the mission or it's values

[smoky quest]

Considering companies model their behavior according to these, I would make sure to read on their values prior to interviews

[true harness]

yeah i've read them, just wondering if i'll need to answer a question like "how do your values align with the company's"

[smoky quest]

you may

Still about 👏 demonstrated 👏 values 👏

[true harness]

lucky for me i can have my notes up during the interview

[deft herald]

Ugh that seems like a horrible question

"we both just want to make money". That'd be my answer

[delicate bane]

welcome to enterprise IT

[smoky quest]

Because no one else does 🤔
That makes for boring coworkers

[vapid jay]

I guess I just need to accept big companies move slow and not take it personally have fun where I can

[smoky quest]

that's one of the reason startups can compete with big companies.
You can't operate a large cargo ship the same way you operate a speedboat

[summer roost]

I don't think that's a good question, but if I got that question I would probably pivot to a conversation about their company's values. I'd probably start by saying something like "the job ad doesn't go into much depth, and it's hard to get a feel for a company's culture before working there. What do you consider to be the values that most distinguish your company from other companies?" and then try to engage with them on that.

[deft herald]

nice

[true harness]

i feel like i'd be too scared to try and answer that way lol. i'll try to keep such pivots in mind 🤔. the reason i asked originally was because a lot of advice is along the lines of "research the company"

[smoky quest]

With regards to the first part, as an interviewer, that would signal to me the candidate hasn't even checked the company's website

[summer roost]

realistically, I probably haven't. 🙂 And the values listed on every company's website are basically the same.

[smoky quest]

they aren't though.
It's such an easy way to distinguish yourself from the other candidates that it's worth looking them up

[summer roost]

meh. But regardless, if the question does catch you off guard because you didn't bother memorizing whether diversity or sustainability was at the top of their website's list of values, I think that pivot is a nice way of turning a question that was designed to put you on the spot into more of a conversation.

[true harness]

i think i'd rather prepare an answer than a pivot, to be fair. i don't think i'm able to come up with such pivots on the fly ngl

[summer roost]

I think that's more of a broad interview strategy than just being a smooth conversationalist. Trying to turn things into more of a conversation than an interrogation.

[vital wyvern]

I had a recent similar experience in the grounds of 'memorizing random job ad stuff'. The application I filled out for an internship was for 3 separate roles with the same qualification, and more or less overlapping duties. The recruiter asked me if I had researched the roles (and I had) but I asked her to supply a face value explanation for how she might distinguish the roles so I that I could make sure my research more or less lined up with what the company was expecting.

I don't know if it was a good move, or a bad move.

[deft herald]

seems...fine

what was their reaction?

[vital wyvern]

She seemed unsurprised that I was asking, to be entirely honest. Given that it was a blanket application to a few similar roles, I imagine she'd run into individuals with some confusion already since the job posting wasn't very clear to begin with.

[smoky quest]

you can always ask for clarification about what it means to them and in which contexts they have used them. That can be useful to prime your brain

[summer roost]

as a very general strategy, asking questions whenever you don't have an answer lined up is a good idea. That's normal advice for technical questions, but it's also good advice for behavioral questions. It gives you more time to think of how you want to answer, and it lets you ensure that your answer is aligned with their understanding of the question

[smoky quest]

Let's take https://www.aboutamazon.com/about-us as an example:

Amazon is guided by four principles: customer obsession rather than competitor focus, passion for invention, commitment to operational excellence, and long-term thinking.

Once you establish what they mean (whether you ask or not), you can then draw parallels with your experience.
Employees may use that to guide their decisions when there are conflicting priorities

[true harness]

so maybe i'd say something like, "what do these values specifically mean to you?" and then they might respond with "oh i demonstrated x when i did y" and then i would say some experience where i also demonstrate x? 🤔

[smoky quest]

I would sugarcoat it as it does sound quite robotic as such. But yeah. It's to get a sense of how you relate to that. Note that it does not necessarily go through you giving examples either. It's pretty open ended

[pine sleet]

Applying to an internship at AWS, one of the questions was exactly this and how I plan to "show customer obsession"

[vital wyvern]

I mean forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but shouldn't your resume be written with respect to the company values anyway? 'How can I sell myself in the context of <x> to this company?' So that information should be fresh in your brain, yeah?

[true harness]

how do you write a resume wrt "customer obsession" 😔

[pine sleet]

The term "customer obsession" is kinda off putting to be tbh but that may just be me

[vital wyvern]

Can you show you've proven a tangible pursuit of ensuring the best possible experience for stakeholders?

[smoky quest]

That works. That's definitely on the extreme side, but I can't argue with that

[pine sleet]

but that 40k scholarship and internship would be really helpful so i just did it anyway lol

[vital wyvern]

A good example in a past role for me would be continually iterating upon my dashboards to ensure that I'm equipping stakeholders with up to date information and not resting on 'good enough', expanding feature sets to provide new and intriguing insights into data.

Also I, literally seconds ago, just found out I moved past to the final round of interviews at that company I was talking about.

[smoky quest]

I actually like it.
There are still too many engineers out there who think along the lines of "build it and they will come"

[pine sleet]

i feel like that's more sales's job tbh

[smoky quest]

congrats!

[pine sleet]

i have more a mindset of, "tell me what to make and i'll make it"

[smoky quest]

Not at all.
If the work is completely disconnected from the users, then they won't build anything useful

[pine sleet]

Hm, yeah. I do see your point. The engineers need to be aware of the needs and wants of a users too, to be able to build a good product

[smoky quest]

for your own career, I would strongly advise to switch it.
It's a great way to have an impact and grow

[summer roost]

that doesn't come naturally to a lot of engineers, so it's a good way to distinguish yourself from the crowd.

[pine sleet]

evidently so 😛
guess I'll have to work on that one

[smoky quest]

if you look at the public career ladders, that's a common difference between senior and non-senior

The sooner you obsess over your customers, the sooner you will demonstrate that you can be trusted to drive efforts and the sooner you will then operate beyond your level

Plus, given that you obsess over your customers, you are more likely to deliver impactful work for your users, which translates in higher metrics and thus more impact

[vital wyvern]

I've had a hard time translating that concept from the military to the actual technical world so far to be honest.

'Just say what you need for me to do, in plain English, and I will deliver that to you. Fire and forget,' can be hard to market.

[smoky quest]

Another book for you: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Product-Playbook-Innovate-Products/dp/1118960874
But with what part specifically do you have some issues?

[smoky quest]

right, and who says that: the grunt or the general at the top of the food chain? Which one do you aspire to be?

[vital wyvern]

Well in the military, you typically get a task, and the endgoal is to be as low-interface during that task as possible right? Like-- stakeholders can come up and say 'I need to know why jets are falling out of the sky,' and the ideal response is 'yes sir.'

I mean at an entry level, frankly, just the worker bee. I need more experience before I think I'm qualified to be that manager level.

[smoky quest]

you can demonstrate leadership and initiative without necessarily be a manager. There is a grand canyon between the two.

[vital wyvern]

Well I tend to distinguish that mentally as 'leaders intake those broad strokes and refine that concept down to team members'.

[smoky quest]

Like for instance, if there is a question or a problem, it goes a long way to investigate and bring back some answer

[vital wyvern]

I would rather be given an abstract prompt or endgoal, and figure out how to get there myself I suppose. And I think I have a nuanced skillset for that given my background-- it's a general expectation as you move up in the ranks in the military. But I do think there's a disconnect between the experience I'm bringing in the civilian side, and the experience I have from the military itself.

[smoky quest]

A good example is also the concept of "completed staff work" which applies at all levels.
See https://govleaders.org/completed-staff-work.htm or https://newrelic.com/blog/nerd-life/engineering-management-completed-staff-work

[vital wyvern]

Down the rabbit hole I go!

Boy, I wish I had read this first article about 6 years ago.

[delicate bane]

thats just their culture. hence "culture fit"

[vital wyvern]

Conceptually, in the military at least, this is sold as 'anticipating the needs of leaders' when preparing your work, from my understanding so far.

[smoky quest]

too many times, conversations with junior engineers go this way:
Junior: "it doesn't work"
Senior: "What do you mean? What part is broken?"
Junior: "I don't know"
Senior: "Have you investigated?"
Junior: "Nope"
Senior: "Alright, please investigate and let me know what you find"

[true harness]

sounds like a help channel. 🤔 it is a help channel

[smoky quest]

it does

[vital wyvern]

I think that would get me drawn and quartered in my past roles.

I think I conceptualize that as anticipating questions and answering them preemptively.

I think beyond management concepts though, people are more willing to even entertain ideas if you demonstrate that you've done research and intend to respect their time as well though.

Beyond just equipping them with better information; on a transactional basis, you're just a more enjoyable person to work with if you're not... just passive if that makes sense?

[delicate bane]

truly tragic

[smoky quest]

yeah, it goes a long way to demonstrate you have put more than 30s of thoughts into it. And that you have thought ahead of potential problems

[true harness]

huh, you know it seems pydis has prepared me to not do that

[summer roost]

and Google's include "Focus on the user and all else will follow"
and Meta's include "Focus on Impact" and "Build Social Value".
and Apple's mission statement is "The Company is committed to bringing the best user experience to its customers through its innovative hardware, software and services"

"customer obsession" is a unique way to put it, but pretty much every FAANG company seems to say "we're focused on our users" as one of their core values.

[smoky quest]

as they should!

Writing a company's value and mission is also an exercise in saying well known concepts without making it obvious you have copy pasted it from other companies you think are doing great

[summer roost]

and that's why I said this: 👆

[smoky quest]

It doesn't mean that they are all the same though

And then, for more senior folks, you could dig into specific wording of it. The user experience part of Apple or Building Social Value of meta are there for very specific reasons. But that's more for product/leadership than engineers

[delicate bane]

pydis social media has prepared me to not do that
FTFY

[smoky quest]

But like when I have to reject applications because the answer to "why did you apply?" is just "money", the bar is very very very low

[true harness]

people actually do that?

[delicate bane]

tragic

[smoky quest]

yeah. More than you think

I even receive applications where the name of the company or wording is for a completely different company and role

so yeah, if you show people you have looked at them, you create some warm fuzzy feeling in their tiny heart

The same way if the interviewer hasn't looked at your resume at all VS can mention some parts of your experience/projects

[delicate bane]

lancebot-appproved

[summer roost]

they're not all the same, instead every company chooses a random subset of the same obvious principles and phrases it in their own wording. You probably learn more from the wording they choose than you do from the values they list, honestly...

[smoky quest]

yeah.
And at the other end of the spectrum, you have companies like IBM https://www.ibm.com/about

We bring together all the necessary technology and services, regardless of where those solutions come from, to help clients solve the most pressing business problems.

[true harness]

isn't that basically just, "we do our job"

[summer roost]

"to help clients solve the most pressing business problems" sounds a lot like "customer obsession", just dressed up by a stuffier company.

(don't get me wrong, of the two I'd definitely sooner work for IBM than Amazon)

[vital wyvern]

I mean, at some point I think cynicism becomes incompatible with the actual job application process. Even if you don't truly believe in the value added by those mission statements, I don't think you fundamentally disagree with their concepts.

[smoky quest]

it's also a function of the size/age of the company

[delicate bane]

ibm lol.

[smoky quest]

A large company will hire some external consultant to make some powerpoint.
A startup will probably have the founders agonize over it

[vital wyvern]

That marketing/mission statement wasn't really made in the context of you, the employee. It is the goal of the enterprise. The point of the mission statement is just translating how your skills fit into that context, yeah?

[delicate bane]

ah the super expensive slide decks. then the internal peeps are like what the eff

[vital wyvern]

If everyone values waves hands user experience, it should make selling yourself in that context easy then.

[smoky quest]

it's an expression of the mission, vision and what the company cares about.
Amazon people will solve conflicting priorities based on that (so do some other companies)

[delicate bane]

a tale as old as time

[vital wyvern]

Yeah I guess what I'm getting at is it's easy to be critical of mission statements as being more or less just rephrasing of the same goals, but regardless of that, the burden is still on you as an employee or applicant to work towards that mission statement. Or more or less, I'm asserting that's my understanding.

It would be pretty hard to sell myself to Amazon if I went 'well I don't care about your mission statement because it's the same as everyone else's', even if it is at face value.

[summer roost]

I don't disagree with the concepts at all, but my point is that the concepts that every company espouses are basically the same, with minor variations, because all companies goals are basically the same. Make the world a better place, be nice to each other, sell more of our stuff.

[vital wyvern]

I may be misunderstanding, is that an observation or a criticism?

To elaborate, I'm not sure I understand if you're saying that's a negative or not (that they're all the same goals.) I don't think companies need to have unique mission statements.

[summer roost]

observation, I guess. Within the context of studying a company's listed values before an interview to impress the interviewer, I'm not sure how much payoff there is. I think you could just as easily go into that question blind and give an answer about your focus on the customer or your commitment to inclusion or your belief in the importance of sustainability and do just fine no matter what company you're applying to

so I guess, mostly I'm skeptical about the value of memorizing a company's list of core values before an interview. It doesn't hurt to skim the list, I'm sure, but you probably won't learn much about what the company actually prioritizes from reading that list. And the things that you can learn about what the company prioritizes, you'll likely learn from how they say things, rather than what they say.

[vital wyvern]

So I guess my comment on that would be that I'm not sure what else you would focus on, if not learning the company values and goals. Assuming you're confident that you're technically qualified to hold the role, it's unlikely that you need to study specific technical scenarios or questions. If you're at a point in the interview process where those questions are coming up, it's likely you met the qualifications already, and you're trying to sell yourself as a person that will fit within the culture of the company as well.

[delicate bane]

low payoff for sure. your time is better spent on other things

you can easily spend time polishing your responses to common behavioral questions

or even better learn what the company actually does (or try to learn)

[smoky quest]

I would still spend time on them. No one will ask you to memorize them, but demonstrating you have read them can show some interest on your side.
So I would spend the 5-10min reading through them

[delicate bane]

yeah 5 minutes is fine

[vital wyvern]

I don't think it can possibly hurt you to research the company. You don't need canned and rehearsed responses, but being peripherally aware of the actual goal and mission of the company can let you frame replies in the context of those goals, and I think that can go a long way to selling yourself to your interviewer.

[summer roost]

it can't hurt in terms of your chances of landing that job, absolutely.

it can hurt in terms of just, like, resource prioritization, though. That 10 minutes might be better spent applying to another job.

[smoky quest]

I do spend time researching the company, the values, the investors, the people I will be interacting with, the product, their customers, their competitors, etc. But I recognize that might be on the extreme side

If I am going to bet the next 2-5 years of my life on them, I want to make sure I make the right choice

[summer roost]

I'd be more likely to read news articles and blog posts and Blind messages about a company than spend time reading their core values. I might brush up on them right before the interview, but I'd just as likely not.

[vital wyvern]

And do you think that equips you better for the interview process?

[summer roost]

for the interview process? No, almost certainly not. For deciding if I want that job, yeah, absolutely

that may just be a matter of perspective. I'm at a point in my career when I'm much more likely to be choosing between offers than doing whatever I can to get an offer.

[delicate bane]

sounds like youre about to join a startup/scaleup

[true harness]

on the other hand, me with 3 interviews in 300 applications 🥴. not a lot of choice 😔

[vital wyvern]

That could be true, I couldn't possibly muse on that though. I know at an entry level, in my last 8-9 interviews, they've been largely a litmus test of personality rather than an explicit technical interview.

I do recognize that the field I'm pursuing might not be a direct comparison to the field(s) you are active in either.

[summer roost]

what field are you in? I don't recall

[vital wyvern]

Data Analytics

[summer roost]

ah. Yeah, I have no particular insight there.

[vital wyvern]

I think entry level positions are largely less technical focused and more personality focused-- the job itself isn't particularly technically demanding at that level. (In my field.) The industry right now is awash with entry level workers making a career change, and simply being peripherally aware of Python is typically enough to technically qualify you.

[summer roost]

all of that sounds totally reasonable to me as an outsider

[smoky quest]

I am not ready for retirement 😎
So startups it is

[delicate bane]

ah wait i thought you were going cybersec

[vital wyvern]

I start college in the fall for Cybersecurity. 🙂

[delicate bane]

ah gotcha. so youre going to pivot

[vital wyvern]

I think Analytics as a career field employs a wide variety of degrees. I'll be minoring in Data Analytics.

I enjoy the prospect of having a few different career paths open for me, and there are some unique career paths specifically in the context of Cybersecurity, Analytics, and some previous clearances and qualifications I have.

[delicate bane]

theres def opportunities for combining the two for sure.

a DS i follow got his 2nd masters in cybersec. hes a DS focused on cybersec problems at cloudflare. which makes sense given the types of problems they would be facing there.

[vital wyvern]

I am very interested in Data Science, but I do not have the technical foundation to really pursue that right now. Need to work on my math skills. 🙂 I'll be taking a pretty heavy courseload in pursuit of that during uni, so in the event that I decide to go down the path of continuing my education, I have a decent base to build off of.

I don't know, I'm kind of struggling with possibility overload right now. But I've more or less just immersed myself in learning, and I'm applying for and pursuing jobs in the context of continuing to develop myself and my skills in that regard. I figure I'll just continue the information intake until a path opens up that makes reasonable sense to pursue.

The worst case scenario is that I pursue whatever it is that tickles my fancy as a hobby instead of a profession, and I'm perfectly fine with that.

[delicate bane]

i think thats a good approach. many peeps think they have to have everything figured out but many people change their minds/discover new paths all the time

and thats also perfectly fine imo

heck that was my path

[vital wyvern]

I think that might be the benefit of doing this a bit later in life than normal-- I'm approaching my 30's soon, I've worked a fairly demanding job for the last 8 years and did as much as I could to set myself up as I moved on. So at the bare minimum, I think I'm under very little pressure to make my mind up right now at least. Maybe that'll come back to bite me in the butt, we'll see. I'm optimistic about the future though!

[stoic relic]

I feel like, as someone starting out with code, it's absolutely pointless with AI about to take over everything. I want to be motivated to learn, but I keep feeling like I'm wasting my time. I saw an FB add today, of some guy going on about AI marketing, and he says why would I hire a web developer when AI can do it for me for free in seconds. It's discouraging. how is anyone else here feeling about it?

[vital wyvern]

I think that even in the most pessimistic take, someone still has to code, maintain, and improve those AI, so there will always be a demand. 🙂

[stoic relic]

will there though? certainly all the people learning code today won't be needed, maybe 25% will be needed, but the rest? I don't know, I just feel deflated, and have no idea what to do about it. I'm unemployed, learning code, with the idea that I can give myself job security by learning these skills. Then AI comes along and derails everything.

[vital wyvern]

I think if you continue to pursue your education, it will become abundantly clear just how misinformed your perceptions about how AI works are. ^^

[stoic relic]

Well, here's the thing, I've been using chatgpt to teach me, as a mentor, it feeds me exercises to do, I do them, and it checks my work and explains to me where I went wrong. and then I hear everyone saying that coders will still be needed to maintain code, but here I am having AI maintain my code and show me all the mistakes in it lol .... it's so messed up.

[vital wyvern]

I get that it's hard when you're trying to make your living around it, that's kind of what we were just discussing more or less. But if your heart isn't into learning as much as you can and developing your skills, you're not going to develop to a level where you'll have job security regardless.

Realistically, GPT is a natural language model, the whole 'AI is taking over' thing isn't... correct. It is, in fact, often confidently incorrect in matters of coding.

I'm probably the last person that's qualified to tell you how you should learn, but regardless, in my time here and from personal experience, I can tell you that the quality of education you're getting by learning through chatGPT is going to be non-competitive with what you need to excel in the industry.

If not just being blatantly incorrect at times.

[pine sleet]

chatgpt is good as a language model but other than that it's pretty dumb. Not all that impressive if you ask me

[stoic relic]

oh I'm motivated to learn, I have nothing else going for me. The problem is, what's the point in learning this, if there's no job security ( my goal), and so if I can't achieve that goal, then the motivation to learn isn't really there.

[snow rapids]

AI , chatGPT etc will improve fast

[pine sleet]

The job security hasn't suddenly plunged since ChatGPT came out. AI is not taking over jobs, experienced developers who know the limits of AI and know how to use it as a tool will take over jobs.

[stoic relic]

Yes, it's the improving fast part that has me concerned

its only been out for 3 months.... give it time lol

[vital wyvern]

Robin more eloquently saying what I'm trying to convey. A story as old as time.

[pine sleet]

I'm not convinced. The "omg AI going to take over programmer jobs!!!" has been running for decades now with no light at the end of the tunnel. I'm not convinced that's going to happen in our lifetimes.

[stoic relic]

its not just programming jobs!

there's a laundry list of jobs that become redundant

[pine sleet]

Sure. I admit it can potentially replace certain jobs, but not IT ones.

[stoic relic]

I'm not going to stop learning code.... but I am counting on getting a job in a year or two coding... I can't stay unemployed for much longer than that

but I feel like by then AI will be that much stronger too

[pine sleet]

There are better places to put your effort in to achieve that goal rather than worrying about AI. It's nowhere close enough to be making programmers completely redundant as of now.

[peak halo]

not strong enough to actually eliminate programmer jobs.

[snow rapids]

It's been years to get there. Public attention months yes. First development on AI ~1950

[stoic relic]

I've been learning python, html, and css, thus far, at least the basics.... focusing on moving toward web development, or even shopify developer

[summer roost]

And every decade since 1950, people have predicted that a general automated intelligence would be developed within 20 years. And every time someone has said that up til now, they've been wrong.

[pine sleet]

I can tell you one thing - 2023 will be the year of the Linux desktop!

[snow rapids]

You mean AGI not in our lifetime? I agree i think. But can always ask chatGPT;)

[stoic relic]

The problem with this however, is that now chatgpt exists, along with dall-e, people are using it to automate many tasks including content creation in blogs and youtube videos.... no one needs to learn anything anymore

[vital wyvern]

And it's often wrong.

[pine sleet]

Sure they do. The generating content with AI was a brief fad. They've all but died out now.

I'm not aware of any major content creators who exclusively use AI for their content

[vital wyvern]

If you browse #python-discussion and #1035199133436354600 for long enough, you'll start to get an intuition for how many people are there explicitly because their GPT generated code is not functioning as anticipated.

[stoic relic]

A lot of them won't admit it either.

[smoky quest]

It is being embedded in the tooling and workflow of artists

[pine sleet]

It's pretty easy to tell. See Syrulol's comment above

[vital wyvern]

I have a cool video on machine learning algorithms in the context of media, hold on.

[pine sleet]

Yeah, people who know the limits & how to use it as a tool will make the most of it.

Though relying on it might be a step too far

[vital wyvern]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOTYgcdNrXE&list=PLjHf9jaFs8XVAQpJLdNNyA8tzhXzhpZHu
Fwoosh! That entire series is focused on misinformation, but it addresses ML concepts more than a few times regarding news media.

[snow rapids]

Do you think it will improve and improve fast? Would the improvement be small or huge? Over the years technology eliminated some jobs but created new ones too. So i am hopeful too.

[vital wyvern]

I am potentially the worst human being on the face of the earth to ask that question to.

[grand locust]

I honestly doubt that AI will replace AI software engineer roles.

[stoic relic]

Lets assume for a moment chatgpt and other AI's only get better from here on out....5 years from now.... they're improved and upgraded, they'll be writing any kind of content, essays, blogs, books, etc... authors have the great ghostwriter AI. Translations will be perfect, voiceovers are already pretty good, coding will improve, and that's not counting retail, cashiers, etc .... and so many more I haven't thought of yet.... What I see coming is a huge wall of unemployment, because I think we can all say with sincerity, that corporations would fire everyone if they could do the work for cheaper, and faster.

[vital wyvern]

If you want my personal opinion-- probabilistic machine learning is just that, aggregate probability statistics. In applications where there is a low margin for error or a low acceptance for inaccuracies, as well as applications where existent data simply does not translate well into training models, I do not think AI can evolve at any real rate towards a reasonable solution.

[peak halo]

It's also important to keep in mind that while ChatGPT--with all its shortcomings--is state-of-the-art for automated general intelligence, it required an immense amount of data and computation power to create. so we might be pushing the limits of what we can accomplish until there's another leap in hardware, or a new AI paradigm to supersede deep learning.

[stoic relic]

That's just the version of chatgpt that we have access too.... what's the unreleased version look like?

[pine sleet]

I doubt it's anything revolutionary like one might imagine

[stoic relic]

if anything its devolutionary because it's removing the human element

[vital wyvern]

Then, in this fantasy scenario, everyone should be panicking. Time to learn a trade. 🙂

If your opinion in that regard is so rigid, then you're the only person that can make the assessment for whether or not you should be pursing one of those 'replaceable fields'.

[pine sleet]

This supposed scenario would probably just be Terminator but IRL, lol

[stoic relic]

no one else is concerned about it? just me?

[pine sleet]

A lot of people are but it's just a bit misguided

Once you realize it's limits it's not all that scary

[grand locust]

Not really because I doubt AI will replace AI software engineer roles.

[stoic relic]

its current limits, I would agree... what about future limits?

[vital wyvern]

And how might those advances come about, Thetamind?

[peak halo]

more performant how?

[pine sleet]

This future limit is too far in the future for me to care about.

[summer roost]

it's impossible to know, but assuming there will be continual exponential advances for the foreseeable future seems unwise. AI over the decades has tended to evolve in spurts and false starts, not continued improvement upon the same lines of research.

[snow rapids]

That concern is real. For now it seems fine though. To predict future is hard.

[stoic relic]

trying to bait me into saying programmers needed, but in that case programmers needed until not needed. lol

yes, now isn't the concern, I'm still learning code, but I'm thinking it's going to take me 2 years to get decent enough for a job, that means 2 more years of AI advancement, I feel like I'm racing the clock

[snow rapids]

Your job is AI software engineer?

[pine sleet]

2 years is a relatively short time for the massive restructuring of the social order you seem to imply AI will have

[grand locust]

No, I am just saying that is a field of software engineering that I think it can't be replaced

[stoic relic]

you guys seen the amazon stores that you can pay with your palm?

[vital wyvern]

How do we know YOU'RE not a natural language model in disguise?

[summer roost]

most of us who actually work in the industry are not concerned.

[snow rapids]

https://research.facebook.com/publications/llama-open-and-efficient-foundation-language-models/

[stoic relic]

no employees needed, just go in shop, everything you take out of the store is auto charged to you

[pine sleet]

haven't seen any yet

[vital wyvern]

Those have existed for a few years though. That's not AI, and they had a major issue with stealing, if I recall correctly.

[pine sleet]

i doubt it's all that much of an improvement over human work. probably just a proof of concept

[stoic relic]

always kinks in the system to improve until they get it figured.

[vital wyvern]

If the words of qualified experts in the industry aren't enough to convince you that your worry is misplaced, then I'm not sure what I can do to convince you otherwise, given I'm neither qualified, nor in the industry lol.

[peak halo]

by "stealing" do you mean "the customer took them, expecting to pay, but an error in the system caused their account not to be charged"?

[spark cobalt]

I doubt the unreleased version is infinitely better than what we have now. At least that's quite literally the metric for a "perfect" AI.

[vital wyvern]

I was under the impression it was both. Let me do some digging, the first ping I got was things just simply not being charged as necessary. https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/22/16920784/amazon-go-cashier-less-grocery-store-seattle-shoplifting-punishment-detection

[spark cobalt]

A perfect AI is impossible.

[peak halo]

depends on whether the problem the AI is intended to solve can be made to be deterministic

[spark cobalt]

For this context, definitely impossible.

Language evolves way too fast for any AI to keep up with.

And the time spent catching up is an imperfect AI, hence an AI impossible to be perfect.

[dreamy shadow]

AI ONLY NEEDS TO BE 80% EFFECTIVE.

[peak halo]

for the case where the system failed to charge customers correctly, my guess is that most of the time, that retail model is still more cost-effective than paying cashiers.

[dreamy shadow]

80% effective > Human effective. Bye bye human

[stoic relic]

I think AI is the first technology that actually scares me, because of how efficient it could be in so many industries. I've never feared a technology before. And it's not because I've seen skynet in terminator, but because of what it can mean for the majority of people. I find it difficult to imagine an automated AI world, where humans sit around all day collecting universal basic incomes lol. I know we probably won't go to the extremes, but the extremes do need to be considered.

[spark cobalt]

I'm sure people of the industrial revolution were scared of the same thing.

[dreamy shadow]

AI is in like half the things you use.

[pine sleet]

You may be.. overstating perhaps how useful AI is in and of itself

[vital wyvern]

I think that would be a fair assessment. Instances of shoplifting that I've been able to find have been largely motivated by detecting and exploiting issues in the way that the cart items are tabulated. (Mostly using bathrooms, ew.) But I would concur, the operating cost of hiring cashiers is likely larger than the cost of the lost assets.

[peak halo]

the pending elimination of unskilled labor has been looming over us for a while.

[spark cobalt]

Either way, it's not something to worry about in your lifetime lol.

[stoic relic]

I don't know, I've been using chatgpt for a lot of things, for fun. It does a lot of things... I can write a book by giving it point form for each chapter.... It's got quite a bit of usefulness, as it is.

[dreamy shadow]

LA literally robbing amazon truck be like:

[spark cobalt]

We've had the technology to replace cashier's in McDonalds for decades. It just was never economically viable.

[summer roost]

Fortunately, it's far less than that today. It can't understand even very problems.

[pine sleet]

I bet if once was a professional writer, it'd be pretty easy to pick apart a low quality, AI written book from one written by another professional writer

[summer roost]

https://i.redd.it/k6algbfrjh7a1.png

[pine sleet]

Similar to how I can spot ChatGPT-written code just by looking at it. It's painfully obvious due to it's lacking quality.

[dreamy shadow]

Those are only the bad AI you know about. There's plenty of places AI being used everywhere. Like those mf automatic phone that can't understand "OPERATOR"

[summer roost]

that's the state of the art AI that has everyone concerned. If you're not concerned about that, 🤷‍♂️

[spark cobalt]

80% is still really good, it just depends on the use case. For example, AI being 80% effective in detecting cancer cells early is huge.

But in practice, a number like this would be in cooperation with a human doctor.

[dreamy shadow]

There's nothing to be concerned about?

I'm more concerned about mf capitalism and those downsides. AI's not the enemy, the CEO who lays off half the task force to replace w/ AI is.

[summer roost]

no, perhaps I misunderstood your concern. Most people who come here worrying about AI point to ChatGPT, and say "this is so good, it will replace developers soon", and it can't even solve incredibly simple problems like listing words that end in r.

[peak halo]

the only part of those systems that maybe count as AI is maybe the speech recognition component. the rest is just a hard-coded flowchart of interactions that phone system can have. and it seems that they're intended to keep you from a human at all costs.

[spark cobalt]

Won't be a problem in our lifetime

[dreamy shadow]

Yes, I know. The only times I ever call is because their **** automated system can't handle my issue.

[dreamy shadow]

That's what you think

[pine sleet]

ChatGPT is pretty tame compared to what they're doing lol, truly impressive engineering.

[spark cobalt]

Ultimately the next couple decades would be AI enhancing people's work. CEOs that do this will get fucked by capitalism.

[dreamy shadow]

Military contracts. Dog w/ Machine Gun go

[stoic relic]

chatgpt is just the example being used... I know theres many others developing other AI tech, there's going to be an AI explosion in the near future.

[vital wyvern]

Wait until you (maybepossibly) get a peek into the defense contracting technologies.

[dreamy shadow]

People scared about chat gpt are essentially the same folks that are afraid of vaccines. No concern from me there.

Speaking of military contracts & tech, I recall they used ML to have a huge field of vision with satellites.

[pine sleet]

Pretty much just seems like a hype train to me

[summer roost]

ChatGPT is the state of the art general artificial intelligence, and it can't list 10 seven letter words that end in R. It's not going to take over software developer jobs ever. Something based on it might, one day, but that probably requires faster than linear progress in order for it to happen during our lifetimes.

[spark cobalt]

CoPilot has (probably) replaced 0 jobs.

[dreamy shadow]

Fyi, some of those photos chatgpt screen shots are photoshopped or rigged.

[peak halo]

I just tried that, and the first word was indeed "culprit"

[spark cobalt]

[dreamy shadow]

Looking for AI to generate my complex sql queries please.

[peak halo]

!e print([len(word) for word in """Pursuer
Scriber
Slinger
Reveler
Fancier
Warbler
Injurer
Plaster
Savorer
Sizzler""".split()])

[inner wren]

@peak halo :white_check_mark: Your 3.11 eval job has completed with return code 0.

[7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7]

[peak halo]

it got it right on the second try.

[spark cobalt]

AI is just another cryptocurrency hype in regards to startups and shit.

[dreamy shadow]

Too much FUD everywhere these days.

[spark cobalt]

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/02/lastpass-hackers-infected-employees-home-computer-and-stole-corporate-vault yay

[dreamy shadow]

I thought they were breached multiple times already.

I think our company used lastpass at some point lmao

[spark cobalt]

Oh damn

[snow rapids]

Every McDonald's where i live

[pine sleet]

my antisocial self always uses those lol

At least the machine isn't going to judge me (hopefully)

[snow rapids]

A lot of assumptions there 🙂

[dreamy shadow]

At least you know exactly what your ordering? "Hi welcomehwoaegaowhegweoagwawoeghwmayItakyour order?"

[dreamy shadow]

FUD gets no sympathy from me.

[pine sleet]

What is FUD?

[dreamy shadow]

Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt.
"Fear, uncertainty and doubt (often shortened to FUD) is a propaganda tactic used in sales, marketing, public relations, politics, polling and cults. FUD is generally a strategy to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information and a manifestation of the appeal to fear. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt

It's essentially in every news article you see today.

[pastel thunder]

what to do when the range of offer mentioned in job posting is huge? too low to great?

[smoky quest]

You can do whatever you want with it? It just means there are a lot of factors at play

[pastel thunder]

and its not suitable to ask in interview, isnt it?

[smoky quest]

why not? Sure you can.
Obviously, don't make it look like you are desperate

[pastel thunder]

understood.

[summer roost]

interviews are a two way street. You're evaluating the company just as much as the company is evaluating you.

[pastel thunder]

i will be able to experience that may be when i have one or two offers. cus then i wont be only just be looking for employment

[peak halo]

I think this is less true during ones first job hunt. Because unless you already have a different offer in hand, you can't necessarily be picky.

[summer roost]

I turned down my first job offer after college because I thought it was too low. YMMV.

[smoky quest]

It's bimodal. There is a non-negligible set of students who have multiple offers before graduating (or can afford to be picky).
get your CS degree

[pine sleet]

Never realized how important a CS degree was until I started lurking here, lmao

[vital wyvern]

The salary for my current pursuit is... pretty darn good even before negotiations. Was a little shocking to see that a company would value the skillset I have that high.

[stuck turret]

Is there anyone out there who is job hunting but don't have a computer science degree, yet possess the requisite skills? If so, what has been your experience so far?

[vapid jay]

I assist a lot of folks that don't have the classic computer science background with finding a position. My experience is (at least in the Netherlands) for 85% companies, they don't care. It's the experience they are after.

[shy oar]

Guys

I'M Python Coder but 9th matric study? how get job?

Can I Get Job? or start Business?

[stuck turret]

is there a possibility we can have a small private discussion? i do have some experience in financial software within a company, but its not the typical Software Developer experience.

[vapid jay]

Sure, more than happy to help

[true harness]

?

[pastel thunder]

i see some jobs mentioning there company size as 10 - 50, are those startups too risky? but they offer great compensation.

[near ocean]

Risky as in they'll not pay you or treat you like "family"? Or as in they'll go under in the first couple years?

[pastel thunder]

risky as in they wont exist no more after couple of months

[near ocean]

Couple months might be a stretch but something like 90% of startups dont make it beyond 2 years
You might wanna google them a bit, see how long they've been around

I worked for a 9 year old startup, at that point they werent gonna go under

[white relic]

10-50 is the size of a lot of small businesses that have a solid customer base and aren't risky at all (beyond, y'know, the usual)

[near ocean]

But be careful to read the offer letter and contract very closely

My workplace emphasized a profit sharing scheme but they were never actually profitable for the 9 years it existed lmao

[white relic]

There's no harm in applying and doing an interview if the job sounds interesting. During the interview is when I would ask questions like where is the money coming from

in fact that was one of the first questions I asked in interviews for my current job

[pastel thunder]

oh great

[harsh jolt]

That depends entirely on their accounts. e.g. How much funding do they have? Where's it coming from? How fast are they burning through it?

Top tip - learn how to read a set of accounts!

[near ocean]

I just had my mom do some digging 💀 she's a banker and probably knows better than they do

[pastel thunder]

how do i ask them these and sound professional and not mean/desperate

[white relic]

Those are completely reasonable questions to ask someone who wants to hire you. It doesn't sound desperate to want to know how reliable your (presumably) primary income source is

[pastel thunder]

true, i have been too introvert lately, even receiving recruiters call gives me anxiety

[white relic]

mood

[versed mulch]

I've been learning and practicing Python but I'm clueless as to what type of options there are as careers

I don't know if I should just learn Python or start looking into different languages aswell

Not looking to chase the highest salary or anything just a stable career

[delicate bane]

you should start with one until youre comfortable before moving onto the next one. if you decide to go into software, youll be expected to use multiple languages anyway. better to start with one and start building stuff.

[true harness]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[true harness]

!rule 6 actually

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[vapid jay]

Sure send me a message

[sleek egret]

yar

[analog sun]

Hello, your post has been removed due to our rule 6. If you feel this has been a mistake, please send a DM to @severe widget

[sleek egret]

it's all snowy and white out. what a spring.

[near ocean]

Contemplating office politics and coworker relations when doing code reviews
A PR has a bunch of unnecessary list() calls on things like dict key/value views, most are inconsequential.
Do I:

• point them out on the PR,
• message them privately to point them out,
• let it go in case they take it as nitpicking and whatnot

Do people actually worry about this kind of shit or am I overthinking it?

[true harness]

ughhhhhhhhhhhhh. i think it went ok. i was asked to rate my skill in certain things like java, excel, oop, testing from 1-10 which was really annoying because i didn't want to say anything greater than 7 🥴

[true harness]

personally i would just say something on the PR. there shouldn't be anything wrong with trying to make the code better

[near ocean]

I've heard horror stories of people getting grumpy and uncooperative if you try to help/correct them

Also they're older than me and more experienced, dont know how that plays into it

[true harness]

i think if you're respectful on the review i don't think it's an issue 🤔. you should make sure there's a ~paper trail~

[true harness]

also they said they'd respond later today, which I understand is relatively quick?

[near ocean]

Was this a technical interview? The online session, right?

[true harness]

uhh a behavioral interview. just a phone call

[near ocean]

Should be pretty quick then, when I did mine they called me for the next round maybe a half hour later

[true harness]

well I hope they don't call me rn 😔 I'm in class.

also they're a fairly small company

[near ocean]

Pick it up, the grind calls

[ivory sluice]

when websites like glassdoor ask for your title and number of years of experience, are you supposed to provide the number of years you've had that specific title?

so if you went from "X" to "Senior X" in the past year, you'd put 0-1 years of experience?

[chrome summit]

total

[ivory sluice]

and what if you had a lateral shift?

it makes sense to me to include total number of years if you've climbed a specific ladder

[deft herald]

total experience in a relevant position i guess?

[ivory sluice]

in my case it's a wonky lateral and slight vertical shift

diagonal, let's say

[deft herald]

i know levels.fyi asks for both total and exp in current position

[ivory sluice]

i've been looking hard at levels.fyi and they have a sore lack of options for people outside dev

(i'm not a dev)

[deft herald]

But...it's just collecting data. It's not like they're going to verify what you say, so just answer in the way you think makes the most sense

[ivory sluice]

like outside of the software engineering category which has 30 options, everything else gets 1 bucket

[deft herald]

I did notice that recently

[ivory sluice]

it appears to be an amazing resource though. just not so much for me

[potent stratus]

I always go for the "can you explain this to me?" approach - I'd leave a comment on the PR saying "hey so and so, I'm reviewing this PR and I'm not quite following why these list() calls are needed - could you walk me through your logic?"

for me at least it works since it's either an opportunity for me to learn or for the other person to have to justify choices, which shouldn't be a bad thing

[teal vault]

One of the way to think of this; data part of it will stay because it’s not easy to automate data while modeling parts will move to operations

Surely it’ll make devs skill up their levels but in reality IT sector always requires devs to gain new skills and knowledge because the sector upgrades fast

[ivory sluice]

so this is for the title of Revenue Operations Manager. the "additional pay" of $42k proportionally to the base pay of $91k is so high.. and the description of what additional pay means is so vague:

The estimated additional pay is $X per year. Additional pay could include cash bonus, commission, tips, and profit sharing.

when i look at the equivalent for SWE the additional pay to base pay ratio is much more reasonable. $22k additional, $118k base

[sleek egret]

1 yr of experience is still "junior" 🙂

[ivory sluice]

no idea where an additional $42k would come out of for this position. it's not a commission earning job

[near ocean]

Bonus maybe?

[ivory sluice]

? in this hypothetical they could have been junior for 5 years already

[near ocean]

Is additional pay cash?

[sleek egret]

it's just funny when kids with 5 yrs of experience think they're "senior" anything

[ivory sluice]

i'm interpreting "cash bonus" as just that, an extra $X in payroll under the "bonus" category once a year

[potent stratus]

I mean it it makes sense to me in a role where the primary goal seems to be increasing revenue - it'd likely be a bonus based on how much revenue you bring in. currently my bonus is based on how well I meet goals, so if your goals are tied to revenue, the more you bring in, the bigger your bonus.

[ivory sluice]

i thought senior was fairly low on the ladder for swe

[near ocean]

Management

[sleek egret]

so if people have a 40 year career and you enter "management" after say 10 years...

that means 3 out of 4 people are "managers". think about it.

[ivory sluice]

not sure what you're trying to get at

i'm asking how do sites like glassdoor want you to answer the question of "number of years of experience"

[sleek egret]

they want you to answer truthfully

[near ocean]

Total number of years most probably

[sleek egret]

ooooh... that means total years working in the field, not years with that title

so like, if you were a musician from age 21 to 25 then decided to become a programmer from 26 to 32, you'd have 6 or 7 years of experience (32-26)

[ivory sluice]

i just wish these sites were explicit

[sleek egret]

and 5 years of experience as a musician, of course

it is explicit. you're just young and ignorant 😋

but less so now!

[ivory sluice]

i'm trying to be informed of my market value but i'm finding it difficult because my title has remained static for a very long time and hasn't matched my job description. i'll be able to get a new title this year, but unsure of how to answer "how many years experience" on these forms

wtf man

[spark cobalt]

YOE is just years of experience in a specific ladder.

[sleek egret]

your market value is the intersection of what you're willing to accept and what an employer is willing to pay

remember, if the average is $120k, that means that about half of the people are getting less

[spark cobalt]

IT and SWE are different ladders. Switching to another one would mean 0 YOE in the one you switched to.

[sleek egret]

also remember that people who get lower salaries are typically less willing to reveal their salaries

[ivory sluice]

that would be my take, yes

[spark cobalt]

Generally sites (especially like levels.fyi) have a bias for big tech

[sleek egret]

thus these voluntary survey sites tend to show inflated numbers. the only real question is by how much

[ivory sluice]

@sleek egret don't call me young and ignorant, you don't know how old or young i am and sticking a smiley face on it does not exempt you from not being rude. what i'm trying to do here is figure out what a person of my experience is paid these days, in my area. so yes i understand what averages mean and all that, but i'm just trying to figure out how these websites expect their users to answer when they ask for total years of experience, when it's not qualified further

[sleek egret]

The BLS data for the USA shows a mean salary of around $97k to $121k for computer programmers and software developers. Across all experience levels.

[ivory sluice]

yeah i made an account on levels.fyi but it didn't have categories for me so i'm sticking with other resources for now

[sleek egret]

there is nothing wrong with being ignorant about some things. I'm ignorant about many many things. don't be so thin skinned, buddy

and, no offense, but your questions clearly indicate you're very young

[ivory sluice]

what age is very young to you?

[spark cobalt]

You're at the minimum coming off as ignorant now lol

[ivory sluice]

you misread my first line of questioning, btw.

[sleek egret]

in this case, I'd guess you're either still in school or have only been working for a few years

[ivory sluice]

yeah you're wrong on both counts

[sleek egret]

guess my guess was wrong then

[spark cobalt]

Generally it takes a couple of job hops to completely calibrate to what you should be paid at.

Lots of things to take into account:

• YOE
• Location
• Education
• What field you're working in
• employer
• etc.

What other people are paid is a good metric, but ultimately what you're able to offer is different to what others offer. Whether that be less or more.

Ultimately you're worth what other people are willing to pay you for.

[ivory sluice]

sure, but doing research like this in the past has been the most successful means for me to negotiate higher pay with my employer. it's just that my job description has been evolving over time and the title has been lagging, but i'm getting both a vertical bump in title and a lateral shift. so i'm just trying to do my due diligence on what someone of this title and background might earn in my area

[spark cobalt]

Ah ic, gl

[ivory sluice]

the secondary question to this is why the "additional pay" bucket is so disproportionately high for this role.. i know someone said earlier that bonuses would track according to revenue, but as far as i can tell this kind of role is just paid the normal % cash bonus based on their salary. but i can look into resources that are more focused on this specific industry to research that a bit more

is there a way to see from salary submissions a further breakdown of the "additional pay"?

there's a huge difference between something like a tip, % of salary bonus, commission, stock comp, etc.

[craggy wave]

There are plenty of people like you, mina. It's sometimes difficult to get that title promotion while technically doing the job. At the same time, some companies like to give people the title upgrade to hide the fact that they're not giving them the salary raise they deserve. I'd just answer the questions about experience on those forms as how long you've being doing the work, unless it's specifically a "you need to have had this job title for so many years". Even then, you could probably sell it in a job interview, as that's your experience.

[sleek egret]

The problem is that the variance is high. For example, the BLS data shows median software developer compensation is $121k But the bottom 10% earns just $65k and the top 10% earns $169k.

[dreamy shadow]

This was 100% for a friend of mine. They were doing director's responsibilities w/ manager title +pay (Passed on promotion too). Interviewed for a director position and essentially doubled TC overnight.

[sleek egret]

I've also seen people who were out of work for years because they refused to take a job with a "lower" title

[white relic]

Some companies just operate this way - paying a large chunk of the salary as a "bonus" gives management a lot of leeway to punish people or encourage them to quit without the legal complications of firing them.

[dreamy shadow]

Speaking of bonus, 40% tax on bonus hurts

[ivory sluice]

I'm looking at a specific role though, not a specific company

[potent stratus]

I'm not sure where you've worked that bonus is actually just a flat percentage, but I and the people I've talked to about it have all had the experience that the base for your bonus is that percentage, and it then gets adjusted based on how well the company did that year, how well you performed personally, etc. for instance I was new this year but met my goals and I got 100% of my 10% bonus. a friend of mine had an area on their annual review that had "need improvement" and they got 80% of their 10% bonus. my BIL on the other hand got like 200% of his 10% bonus because he did meaningful work and the company did well.

[ivory sluice]

if you keep all other parameters the same besides the title the comp split is really different, and that's surprising to me based on what I know about this role. going to have to reach out to some contacts and try to dig more.

[potent stratus]

a larger portion of TC coming from a bonus means that you have more opportunities to lose that money, IMO

[ivory sluice]

at my company it is % of salary, unless you're special/at the exec level which have much more specific bonus comp structure

for the "regular" employee where I'm currently at, 5% is the maximum bonus if you performed

[potent stratus]

🤷 just throwing out 3 personal experiences where the stated bonus is a % of salary, but that ends up being adjusted

[ivory sluice]

we're not huge, so I have the detail bc I am in finance and have access to payroll and report to the CFO

[dreamy shadow]

My company is % of salary too. (Fortune 500 company)

[ivory sluice]

I think what you described is pretty much the same as our situation, just our max is 5% and yours is 10%?

if someone didn't perform or hit their targets they didn't get 5%

[dreamy shadow]

Wait, isn't that just: 8%, 10%, and 20% bonus for needs improvement, met, exceeds?

[ivory sluice]

8% for needing improvement sounds so nice lol

[dreamy shadow]

Also, my company has a personal bonus based on individual + company wide bonus. Amounts are determined by company performance.

[deft herald]

I actually just shared this in another server the other day

This last review cycle, my company gave some more transparency to how the raises and bonuses are calculated
Basically the levels in each org get assigned a "target %" for bonus and raise. Then this is scaled by 2 different factors: individual performance rating which can go from 0 to 150% and overall company performance (i.e. financials) which can scale it from 0 to 200%
So if your target bonus is 10%, then the minimum is 0 and the maximum is 10% * 200% * 150% = 30% of your salary
...which was kind of funny to say the increased "transparency" translates to "yeah, you'll get anywhere from 0 to $45,000"

[potent stratus]

ehhh kinda. except all three were at different companies. so mine personally is based specifically on meeting goals that you set out. the friend that got 8% still did really great work that year, was not overall in the "needs improvement" category - it was like one of 10 categories and the rest were all meeting expectations. so it's not flat rates at any of the ones I described. it's pretty tailored and I have a meeting with my manager before bonuses go out where I can somewhat argue for myself and then my boss decides what I get

[dreamy shadow]

Oh, I missed the different company part. Nvm me then.

[potent stratus]

I didn't really highlight that part since I didn't see it as super relevant so no worries!

[potent stratus]

seems like it yea, mine tops out at 10% but that's definitely not company wide. I know one person at this company who negotiated a higher salary and lower bonus percentage

[dreamy shadow]

That's actually smart. I rather take higher base and lower bonus. Bonus is higher tax.

[ivory sluice]

it's nice to know what the max is though

[deft herald]

yeah

[ivory sluice]

if I had the choice I'd simplify it and just make individual and company performance max to 100%, not 150 and 200 lol

[deft herald]

Yeah not sure exactly why they chose that

[ivory sluice]

actually, for company financials they're probably making 100% the target and saying they'd share extra if they exceed that

maybe

[deft herald]

yup

Company performance is based on company-wide revenue and operating income goals. Depending upon our weighted performance (each metric is weighted 50%), annual bonus pool funding can range between 0% - 200% of target

a relative weighting of 50% Revenue and 50% Operating Income. The bonus program is designed so more funds are available if we exceed the financial goals and fewer funds are available if we fall short of the financial goals.

[white relic]

that only matters to the extent that the statistics gathered by this website are representative of the world at large and not just dominated by one or two big companies.

and, like, how fuzzy you want to get on the title. Because there are surely many software engineers whose title isn't "Software Engineer" that wouldn't be included in such an average.

[chrome summit]

Banking would give as low as 0% for needs improvement lol

At least for banks, each grade has a bonus % tied to it. Based on your own individual performance, you would get between 0% to 200% of that set %.

[buoyant seal]

Not my project, and not paid for its adds. Just wishing to have mentioned here because... it is certainly cool example of a pet project, machine learning engineer could have.
there is youtube channel with viva la dirt content https://www.youtube.com/@VivaLaDirtLeague/featured
some guy made web site https://npigeons.com/ which tracked appearances of all its characters across all videos in youtube, and generated links to each time person's face is mentioned.
And then uploaded everything to django and showed to simple frontend made with DataTables library + Bootstrap (see full tech here https://npigeons.com/how )
https://npigeons.com/person/Adam example of end result for user usage
pretty cool pet project for machine learning engineer to have i think, certainly worthwhile addition to a resume of machine learning engineer
Pretty much almost purely Python pet project in addition in its tech stack

[sleek egret]

Is that all you?

[sleek egret]

Yes, but I've also seen people get 1000% bonuses or more at banks if they make the bank a buttload of money

[chrome summit]

that is Front Office - targets are very different since it based on a combination of risk to reward and subject to clawback

[sleek egret]

indeed

[ivory sluice]

I think you kind of answered your own question at the end, but are you saying company A only allows shorter internships for those that are soon to graduate?

we can't give legal advice, but you don't sound very attached to the idea of internship/company A so I wonder why you'd even try to mislead them just to have an extra internship

[chrome summit]

The whole point of an internship is to get hired by the company. If you lie and have no intention of graduating by X date, that will not make you hirable which was the point of the internship. Only do this if you are willing to live up to your word in my opinion.

[delicate bane]

just choose the better internship, the august one. use that time before you start to relax and/or learn things and build things

[true harness]

when a job app says "are you capable of obtaining a secret clearance", what does that mean? i can't find any list of requirements or disqualifiers for obtaining clearance. in the us

[near ocean]

Usually you have to be a citizen and to have been born in the country

[idle sleet]

Hi! 👋
I'm looking for modern career in Tech or Design.

[leaden jasper]

No sketch foreign contacts, not family of a high ranking foreign dignitary, don't do illegal drugs, no gambling problems, etc

[near ocean]

You've asked this a fair amount of times and you've always gotten back some feedback
Have you applied it at all?

[leaden jasper]

If they ask if you play war thunder, say no =P

[true harness]

yeah but say i like, e.g. play war thunder or something. how do i know if this would keep me from getting a clearance?

[leaden jasper]

Let me find the list of stuff you sign off on. It's the SF-86 form pretty much

[idle sleet]

I've applied every recommendation I got here. Nothing seems to work for me tho...

[near ocean]

So what have you done so far

[idle sleet]

Believe me, I wouldn't bother people here on purpose.
I've tried Game Dev, Cyber security, Graphic Design, Logo design, Interior design, Python, etc.

[obtuse thorn]

More specifically: What steps have you taken to advertise yourself/prove you are a qualified candidate for these positions?

[idle sleet]

No I didn't apply to any job. I've just learnt and discover all what it takes, but found most of it boring.

[leaden jasper]

This NG page describes it well from a civilian perspective: https://www.northropgrumman.com/security-clearances/

But odds are you're fine

[near ocean]

Maybe you dont actually want a job in tech or design then? Are you sure this is something you like?

[obtuse thorn]

Ah, I see.
Well, perhaps others already told you, but your first step should be finding what you are interested in and focus on honing your skills there. If you don't like anything and just want the money, then maybe do some research as to what you can tolerate and will make the money you want, but that sounds miserable to me, haha

[versed mulch]

Difference between data developer & data engineer?

[obtuse thorn]

Aviation good. Everyone should apply to this field

[true harness]

they still use a polygraph? what is this the 1900s? bookmarked, thanks 🥺

[obtuse thorn]

One of them scams you out of a good title xD

[idle sleet]

I was always on this tech and design stuff. I might like some different area more, but I haven't found out any yet.

[obtuse thorn]

I have never heard of a data developer before tbh. That title does not mean much to me.

[leaden jasper]

Lol for TS/SCI yeah, for secret and below they don't

[versed mulch]

I wanna do something with data and Python what options are there

[zealous path]

Data analyst (is one)

[idle sleet]

I don't want to the job just to get the money. I want to also enjoy the job at least a little.

[leaden jasper]

Although with covid and generally them being unable to do even a fraction of the re-investigations, I don't think poly is actually all that common

[obtuse thorn]

There are quite a few. Data analysis and data engineering are common ones.

There are also all sorts of less tech-y jobs with analyst in the title that would benefit from some python scripting skills.

[versed mulch]

So far I seen 3/4 things; Data developer, data analyst, data scientist & data engineer

[true harness]

for GPA on a resume, would in-major GPA or overall be better? whichever is higher? both?

[zealous path]

Data dev sounds made up.
Data analyst is what I do.
Data scientists can have wildly different duties.
Data engineers are cool and deal with databases

[idle sleet]

@obtuse thorn I don't know why but I've found out that the kind of old school tech jobs seem boring to me. I'm looking for something new, fresh, modern if you know what I mean. That is for example GOlang, React, Electron, Figma,... Like these new tools.
I might sound like an id*ot, but I hope I'm not totally lost.

[obtuse thorn]

If you are finding you do not enjoy any of those topics, then maybe you should look elsewhere for what you are passionate about?

In school we had to do an exercise where we wrote a list of things we enjoy and a things we are good at and then we were required to find a list of professions that matched items from both columns.

Perhaps find what you enjoy first, then find a way to apply it to a career?

[leaden jasper]

Overall if 3.5+, otherwise go with major if it's higher. If it's below like 3.3 I would exclude it

[versed mulch]

mind if I ask you some questions in dm?

[zealous path]

Sure

[obtuse thorn]

i.e I like sitting in front of computers all day, being in my home, and smashing numbers onto the screen. General developer work was an easy choice.

[idle sleet]

I tried millions of ways to find out what I'm interested in, still really haven't found it... 😕

Maybe I'm just overthinking everything even though I don't want to.

[obtuse thorn]

You can use new modern tools/methods in any of the "old school" programming jobs.

The needs of companies are evolving slowly, but the tools come and go all the time.

I like writing web backends, it does not matter a whole lot if that is in C#, Python, Golang, Java, etc (ok, maybe it matters if it is in java )

[obtuse thorn]

I personally thought I wanted to be a pilot, tried it, decided I didnt want to do it professionally. I play around with various things in programming and generally enjoy all of them, so I am lucky.

Surely there must be something you enjoy (and can hopefully apply to a career)

[idle sleet]

Thank you, I'll keep searching, hopefully someday I'll be able to come here and share my new job with you 😌

[obtuse thorn]

Haha, I look forward to it.

[white relic]

basically what kat said but note that a security clearance is not about prosecuting you for stuff. They aren't going to care if you smoke weed occasionally, even though that's illegal. They will care if you are an alcoholic or have a gambling problem, even though those things are legal. It's a matter of behaviors that make you vulnerable to manipulation or blackmail.
Also having close foreign contacts, although if they aren't close family members it probably just makes the process longer, and doesn't mean you won't get it

[leaden jasper]

Mhm, it's mostly about making sure you're not an insider threat. The big concerns are the foreign contact stuff (this was complicated for me because I'm an immigrant) and then exploitable behaviors. If you're an alcoholic with a gambling problem going through a divorce ... that's a lot of red flags.

[chrome summit]

polygraphs are very common for security clearances and law enforcement roles

[true harness]

what's even the point though. aren't they not even admissible as evidence 🤔

[chrome summit]

I have been through two polygraphs for prior internship roles in law enforcement

Polygraphs are not admissible but still used to test character. People have literally confessed to crimes on them.

[delicate bane]

database developer is one of those terms for "old roles" (vs. newer data roles like data analyst/scientist/engineer/analytics engineer/etc.) and may or may not have similar responsibilities to a DBA or a database architect. imo you should look at the newer data roles but im biased.

[white relic]

they are basically a way of applying pressure. again, a security clearance is not a criminal investigation, it doesn't have to be admissible in court if they can scare you into admitting you lied about something

(I never took a poly, so I can talk about it all I want)

[chrome summit]

For mine, I had to answer pages and pages of crimes and then one of the questions on the polygraph was did you lie on the questionnaire...

[true harness]

it's like that one guy who accidentally answered yes to the "are you a terrorist" question 😔

[white relic]

the most "fun" part of getting a clearance is when an investigator calls you and asks you every. single. question. on the sf-86 form, again

[leaden jasper]

All 3 of my previous workplaces required pretty much everyone to have at least a secret, a handful of TS/SCI. Maybe like... 3 had to take polys? They certainly weren't recent either

[leaden jasper]

god that was the fucking worst

[true harness]

oh it's like an actual behavioral interview lol. not the "what is your greatest strength" questions 😩

[white relic]

occasionally I'd have a coworker who got TS/SCI and then disappeared into the void never to be seen again

[leaden jasper]

So I still have all my passports from my previous country of citizenship. Investigator was very concerned about that. So that was annoying. But even then, I could still explain it and have a convo with the investigator.

[white relic]

you'd see them in the hallways once in a while "Oh hi, what are you working on these days? Oh right... never mind"

[leaden jasper]

I've been a reference for like ... 5 TS/SCIs for other people at this point. I'm real good at answering their questions

[true harness]

probably the best benefit of having a clearance is you can say "that's classified" and people will actually believe you

[leaden jasper]

I think my actual least favorite part was finding the contact info for people at least X places I've lived and worked at that weren't people I lived with. Had me talking to neighbors I maybe said 3 words to prior

[white relic]

oh yeah that's pretty bad if you've lived in a lot of places

[chrome summit]

I don't even have a security clearance despite doing the polygraphs but I did get to ride in a police helicopter.

[true harness]

oh right you need people to verify everywhere you've lived for like 5 years, right?

[leaden jasper]

It's something like 15 years, but yeah

[chrome summit]

My current employer required 10 years of residences...such a pain

[white relic]

if you're considering a cleared job, do download the SF-86 form and read through it to see what you'll be doing to get it

I think you only need references for residences in the last 3 years, but you still have to list them to 10 years

[true harness]

good thing i've stayed in the same place for like 10 yeras

[chrome summit]

In 2021, I moved homes three times LOL

[true harness]

if i just say "GPA", would it be assumed to be overall? also does .05 points matter? my in-major is a little higher

i know it's all about 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏, but i'm assuming such a tiny difference doesn't matter that much. though it does round up to the next integer 🤔

[leaden jasper]

It'll be assumed to be overall unless you specify otherwise

[vital wyvern]

DOD TS/SCI is verified every 5(?) years and Secret every 10, but I believe that's changing to 8 or 7 soon.

[delicate bane]

man clearance sounds like an absolute pain

[vital wyvern]

FWIW, I maintain a clearance. I won't go into the details of exactly what or why, but if you have any specific questions on qualification factors, I'm fairly familiar with the process at this point. Typically in questions of 'can you get a clearance', they're asking in respect to Secret, which means you need to have no criminal convictions (without a waiver), no verifiable pattern use of things like marijuana, no significant financial debts, and limited foreign national connections.

You won't be polygraphed for a Secret clearance.

[vital wyvern]

It's not so bad. A lot of times it's just going into whatever system it's tracked in by your organization and updating anything that's changed.

Network. Talk to individuals in your industry. Build relationships with thought leaders and individuals holding positions that you want some day.

Anyone is allowed to give a referral. The company might stipulate that you cannot have family members on your referral list. Your highest quality referrals will come through network building with individuals in the industry, typically you want someone internally.

[pine kraken]

I'm so happy, finished a 520 lines AI project !

[white relic]

maybe it's just me, but I feel like the phrase "grinding referrals" indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the whole idea of referrals

[dreamy shadow]

Best referrals are going to be people you actually worked with.

[vital wyvern]

I was gently trying to correct that with my word choice. 😅

[true harness]

aren't referrals like, supposed to be people either in the company or know the hiring manager or something

[vital wyvern]

They don't have to be internal. If your referral is, for instance, someone who supervised you in a similar role, that can still be an effective referral.

[delicate bane]

i mean once you have it, it sounds like its fine. but getting it...seems like a whole other story

[vital wyvern]

I held a TS/SCI for 3 years before it was revoked for lack of cause. (I was no longer doing that job.) I was entirely ignorant that the process was even ongoing until the interviewer sat down with me.

It's pretty fire and forget once it starts, it just takes ages.

[dreamy shadow]

Should have kept it active lol

[white relic]

it's annoying, but it's a few days out of your life every 5ish years

[spark cobalt]

Just anyone in the company.

Referrals don't have to be sent to hiring managers either, I think it's quite common to send to HR as well.

[vital wyvern]

I believe the actual SSBI and general investigations are valid for 5 years, regardless. It's been over 5 years since this occurred, but you can just as easily be spun up within that period if memory serves me right. There's a lot of compartmentalization that goes with your actual need to access the information, etc.

The idea being that you maintain a clearance for about 2 years after you leave the role because you might go back into it, but it would be a security risk for you to just be blanket qualified even if you're not doing the job anymore.

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, I've read about the clearance thing. It's one of those things where I personally would want to stay in if I managed to get in. Less competition.

[vital wyvern]

It definitely opens doors. If you put 'Active Clearance' on your LinkedIn profile, you're absolutely assailed by recruiter messages.

It does make me a bit nervous though operating online in general; can make you the target for social engineering and general exploitation, and a lot of the solicitation process from seemingly legitimate recruiters could be fishing attempts for PERSEC exploitations.

I suspect we're both simply individuals that have no other server to burn our Nitro boosts on. 😅

Network. Engage people in the industry.

[spark cobalt]

I'm not on Discord too much lol nowhere else to put boost

[vital wyvern]

A.) I've managed to network on this very Discord.
B.) LinkedIn is a good place to start. Follow thought leaders in whatever job you're going into.
C.) Get involved in conferences and the general community.

[spark cobalt]

Assume you failed until they get back to you.

Never until they reach back

[true harness]

hey i just went over 300 applications this year. i'm at a perfect 1:100 interview to application ratio

[vital wyvern]

I don't think this is good advice. I've heard the two week rule actually as well. If you don't hear within 2 weeks, reach out to the recruiter or hiring manager and simply ask. Your recruiter/hiring manager should give you an anticipated response date though.

[spark cobalt]

That's really good!

[true harness]

idk lol. if i'm comparing with dos he's got like 1:5. though 🤔 they're like a real developer

[spark cobalt]

2 weeks is generous imo. 2 weeks is nowhere enough time for a position with hundreds of candidates. ESPECIALLY with all the laid off HR people.

[vital wyvern]

Perhaps it's different in highly technical career fields, but I don't think you hurt your chances by reaching out and asking.

[spark cobalt]

UK moment

[pine sleet]

Off topic for this channel. Perhaps open a #1035199133436354600 post?

[true harness]

i thought you didn't have any internships?

[vital wyvern]

I'm currently on my last round of interviews for the 5? applications I had placed. If everything goes well in the next two weeks, I'll be weighing offers between 5 separate companies.

[true harness]

how did you have amazon on your resume then 🤔. wait what?

[spark cobalt]

I thought I was talking about technical career field as well. Yeah it doesn't hurt to email after 2 weeks, but my point was mostly the mindset of people that aced an OA and expecting an interview.

[true harness]

wait 5 applications and 5 interviews? :O sheesh

[vital wyvern]

Oh, no, you misunderstand. I am not in a highly technical field per say.

[spark cobalt]

He got offer, the internship hasn't started yet though.

[spark cobalt]

[vital wyvern]

5 applications, 8 interviews so far. The last two are next week. Interview prep course for one tomorrow.

[true harness]

/shrug huh. you just have a start date?

[vital wyvern]

I'm more implying I think my experience with the 'two week' thing is a bit clouded because I don't really have technical demonstration interviews-- but as a general rule of thumb I've been told 2 weeks. I was applying that rule maybe ignorant of the technical interview process.

[true harness]

i mean, isn't the point of internships for the experience? just the fact that you have been accepted doesn't weigh that much

[vital wyvern]

Go back and read recursive_error and my discussion on this topic.

[true harness]

but you applied before you had your internship, right?

so like, how do you even describe that? "accepted for internship"?

[vital wyvern]

https://discordapp.com/channels/267624335836053506/470889390588035082/1071992668516786278
Discussion starts here, learn from my mistakes and shortcomings.

[true harness]

huh. just with no bullet points? seems odd

[spark cobalt]

The purpose is that when he starts he'll have experience.

[vital wyvern]

Tl;Dr:

• There are deliberate measures in place to reduce the bias based on the school you attend.
• Networking is still important, and often the network access is the decisive difference in these institutions.
• Project scope and applicability is still highly, highly important.

[spark cobalt]

A huge bias is location.

[true harness]

yeah but that shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not he gets accepted right now, right? you have no idea if they'll do poorly or something