career-advice

[inner bobcat]

I have been. Some ATS seem to auto deny me (Looking at you Indeed) for some weird reason, maybe something else but seems like experience. Very frustrating trying to even get an entry-level job at the moment.

[true harness]

maybe it's an issue with your resume

[inner bobcat]

That is possible. My dad paid for me to use the Indeed resume writing service. Have not been auto denied since using it but also have not made it past resume review yet so can't say if it helped at all.

[true harness]

how do you know if you haven't been autodenied 🤔. and how do you know you are being auto denied in the first place

[peak torrent]

how much was it ?if don;t mind asking

[inner bobcat]

I had a previous resume that was getting auto-denied. As to your second question, when you submit an app at 1am on a Saturday for a Texas based company and go to look at the Application and it is Denied. Pretty sure HR is not up at 1am on a Saturday. I could be wrong though.

[inner bobcat]

$155 I believe.

[peak torrent]

why you didn't apply to internships? what was the reason? I know is personal I am also in college and I wanna hear peoples experiences. 🙏

[near ocean]

Internships and year in industry

[peak torrent]

Yeah, there are pretty solid interships that they will pay over $25 hr

zillow opened again their internships I know they are over $60 hr

[peak torrent]

Well, I didn't check if this was for phd students or masters :/

[inner bobcat]

My college recommended not applying for them. Parents encouraged me to follow univ guidance. That is what screwed me honestly. Looking back, I would at least do an internship of some sort. And now that I have graduated, I don't qualify for any internships. Thinking about getting my Masters to just qualify for an internship.

[near ocean]

Your college told you not to do internships?

[inner bobcat]

Yes actually. They told me lots of shit that probably hurt me more than it helped me.

[peak torrent]

wow dude

[inner bobcat]

They came up with some BS reason about stress on students and how it would not be compatible with my schedule (which was kinda true. I had a shit schedule every year)/

[peak torrent]

What about trying to apply for IT positions then getting transfers to another department? I have a couple friends they did that. Not the best pay, but at least they got some exp in IT field.

[inner bobcat]

Thought about that, but even those positions in my area are requiring experience. Not off the table.

I am actually almost finished with my Pyrotechnician license so I am going to go that way if I still don't have a job within IT...

[peak torrent]

Totally sucks dude wow

[peak torrent]

Pyrotechnician license I guess this is like a side gig right? lol what about applying to IT department of your college? You will have a recommendation letter from them at least

[sleek egret]

wait, you haven't even started university and you're already worried about getting masters?

[sleek egret]

Those "BS" sound very apt in your case given what you've written so far

erm, "those BS reasons"

[inner bobcat]

Yes, pryo is a side gig. It could make good money though so not off the table for a career. I have some decent connections wihtin that field. I have since graduated so I can't get an internship but I will check to see if they have jobs open to non-students. They have tended to focus towards work-study.

[inner bobcat]

I graduated with a Bachelors of Science in Information Systems.

[sleek egret]

Oh, ok

[west badger]

From where should I learn Flask??

[sleek egret]

the flask documentation is a good place to start

[ionic smelt]

hey im completing my CS degree but im not sure what i should do after.
i want to learn a couple languages fluentl but im not sure where to start

[inner bobcat]

I learn languages as I have a use. I started with SQL and PHP and moved to Python (with SQL) and more recently TypeScript/JavaScript with react. Mainly just cause I had a project that used those stacks.

[sleek egret]

The typical path is to get a job after. The second most typical is to go to grad school. Then get a job. The third most typical is go to grad school, then teach.

I guess, the last is also "get a job", in a way.

[ionic smelt]

i see

[ionic smelt]

yeah i want to get a job but i want to have a bigger background in a region of

[sleek egret]

you should learn a good half dozen programming languages while getting your CS degree. Typically, the prof will say something like, "in this class, we'll be using Haskall, learn it by next week."

[sleek egret]

so... do that? Not to be rude, but I fail to see the problem here.

[ionic smelt]

im not sure how much i should learn tho

[sleek egret]

typically, people learn by reading, listening and doing. I suggest following those paths.

[ionic smelt]

like python.. how proficient should i bebefore i move to another language

[sleek egret]

as for how much, as much as possible.

[sleek egret]

as proficient as possible. after academia, there are no tests. people have varying levels of skills.

those who are higher skilled, generally get higher compensation, more challenging projects, etc. not always, of course, but more often than not.

[ionic smelt]

hmm

[sleek egret]

just be aware that a "passing grade" is considered incompetency in most companies/teams that you'd want to work in

[ionic smelt]

i see

[near ocean]

If you have a degree already start applying

[sleek egret]

if you think about it a bit, you'll see why. "mostly sorta works" in software == horribly broken

[ionic smelt]

i havent gotten it as yet.. itll be 2 more years before

[sleek egret]

I strongly suggest you do internships during the summers

[ionic smelt]

i forgot what i have learnt in schooll alr

[sleek egret]

that sort of experience is very helpful in both teaching you what the working world is like (sorta) and in getting a better "real job" after university.

[sleek egret]

only you can fix that. I suggest less booze and pot. that may help.

[ionic smelt]

i dont drink or do drugs haha

i get good grades and all but i just forgot what i have learnt... i have a vague memory of the stuff i did

[gritty rivet]

Pretty much the only way to remember stuff is practice

[ionic smelt]

thisss

[gritty rivet]

Build whatever you want to build to demonstrate the skills you want to demonstrate

[ionic smelt]

i want to practice but im not sure what to practice for

[gritty rivet]

that will depend on whatever you're interested in / whatever jobs you want to apply for

[sleek egret]

not sure what you expect people here to do or say to that. but be aware that, after school, your employer won't about why your retention lacks. they'll just fire you if it leads to unacceptable job performance. so try to fix it.

[ionic smelt]

im not sure rn... im looking for advice on this

[sleek egret]

as dowcet said, just practice. repetition helps most people retain information.

[ionic smelt]

im lost as to what to do and im scareed now because ai is better than ever now... sure it cant take jobs rn but

so i decided why not join them and help to develope ai

[sleek egret]

programming is to CS as playing an instrument is to music theory. and just as very few people hire music theorists, very few people hire "computer scientists" per se. Most want programmers. And just as you must practice a lot to get good playing the piano or guitar just by reading about music theory, you must practice programming to get good at it.

And "practicing programming" means writing, reading, editing, debugging, improving code. A lot. By a lot, I mean like 20 to 60 hours a week.

just as you can't become a good guitarist by practicing a few hours a week, you can't become a good programmer if you only code a few hours a week.

[ionic smelt]

alr for now imma focus on python

[sleek egret]

and for both programming and playing an instrument, understanding the theory gives you the potential to transcend and become a virtuoso. no guarantees though 🙂

[ionic smelt]

thanks for the explanation

[zealous path]

Ok, let’s tone it down to like 15-30. This doesn’t need to be a second job

[sleek egret]

it does if you wanna get good at it

When I was in HS and I played guitar in a pick up garage band. I remember listening to an interview with some old retired rock star guitarist. He was asked, "how much do you play these days?" His answer was, "oh, barely any at all, no more than a couple hours a day."

It was at that point I understood that I did not have the dedication to the craft of guitar to become a professional musician.

[delicate bane]

wow SMB seem to have a lot of politics or is it the same at bigger companies too

[raven island]

Although the practice aspect of music and code are similar the two are very different in terms of difficulty in my opinion. I'm proficient with music but for whatever reason have been struggling to learn python for a embarrassing amount of time. Won't give up though, I don't care how long it takes I'm learning it.

[supple fossil]

my boss fired me and idk what to do now. My boss was not a technologist. I am a backend/webapp/devops/data engineer. I built a web app for her company, and did a lot of stuff that looks good on my resume. But I suck at tech interviews. I wanted to get a house this year but i probably will not qualify for a mortgage because i doubt i can get a job in the next month. I am really sad, because i worked really hard and gave up other opportunities to stay at this job. She fired me really without cause, for personal reasons. One of those situations where you might be in the right, but it doesn't matter. So i feel really bad right now. I am self taught and dont have any certificates, just a portfolio. I struggle with imposter syndrome and suck at technical interviews. I work hard and am an honest person. But i just feel shattered right now. Because i was gaslit, after trying my best.

i made a profile on hired, and updated my resume. Trying to reach out in my network to see if i can find something. But it's not looking that great, and am having a hard time being optimistic.

[pine sleet]

She fired me really without cause, for personal reasons
Pretty sure you can contest that for wrongful termination

[supple fossil]

she is the ceo, small company. they will just compartmentalize and deny. it's like i live under a communist regime or something.

[pine sleet]

Not through your job, maybe your local equivalent of a labor board something like that?

Should talk to a lawyer about that one

[supple fossil]

I have no recourse because i have no evidence. I have to just move forward.

[pine sleet]

How do you know that it was a wrongful termination, then?

[supple fossil]

i just need career advice and next steps. looking backwards over this isn't going to help i think

[pine sleet]

Fair enough. You have an option to just move on or you can contest it. Up to you 🙂

[supple fossil]

I basically went to a office party and i thought she said something racist. So I asked my friend if he heard it too, he said he didnt. So i asked my boss if she said it, she stormed out the room, cried. went on vacation. then 3 weeks later when she gets back she says shes giving me 30 days to finish my project and she will find me a new job.

I dont think there is a new job, i dont even want to finish my project anymore, she doesnt want to pay unemployment so she says she will find something for me. I've been let go like this before where they say they have something lined up and there is nothing there.

[pine sleet]

If a coworker saw that event, could be an eyewitness

[supple fossil]

I am a department lead, and it's important for me to know if she said something like that because, personal reasons aside (I think being racist is gross), if my employees think she's racist then they will leave and we can't finish the project.

Instead she fired me.

[supple fossil]

there are no eye witnesses, I just asked her if she said it or not. All her coworkers are her family or her close friends they would not be honest even if it did happen

maybe i have some legal recourse maybe i dont. but right now i need to find work.

[leaden jasper]

Interviewing is something you can (and should) practice at. Definitely keep applying, make sure your resume is appropriate for getting past the screening process. Then it's mostly about the interview

[true harness]

you can be fired for literally anything, as long as it isn't a protected class. personal reasons isn't. in the US, at least

[supple fossil]

thank you. yes, I hate looking for work. I'm hoping my experience on hired.com will be better. Indeed has not been that great

[leaden jasper]

You're welcome to post a redacted/anonymized version of your resume here if you want some feedback

[supple fossil]

thank you

[west badger]

it is hard to find jobs for python developers

[zealous path]

50-50
Depends on county and city
Remoteness of position
Yada yada….

[sleek egret]

it is? since when?

[zealous path]

Any specific you looking for? (Data engineer…)

[west badger]

software dev

[sleek egret]

if you think getting a job as a developer is hard, trying getting one as a steelworker in the US or Europe

[zealous path]

Oh, my dyslexic ass saw that as a question not a statement

[sleek egret]

that's pretty vague. he asked "specific"

[zealous path]

Cringe

[west badger]

idk i searched software dev jobs and it said you need to learn this or that

not python and I am talkin about Canada

[near ocean]

Well yea, how would you do the job if you dont know anything about it 💀

[sleek egret]

well yes, it turns out that when people hire, they want the person they hire to have certain skills/knowledge

[west badger]

alright sure you guys wanna be rude to me?
ok then i will not ask anything here from you guys

[zealous path]

e.g. my current job looked for Python and database knowledge(SQL in this instance)
[ironically I use neither right now]

[sleek egret]

shifting requirements are the norm. but you probably know this.

[zealous path]

We want to help you.
We’re just used to
Us: “how many apples you want”
Person “yes”

[sleek egret]

also, he hasn't actually asked anything

[near ocean]

You didnt ask for help, you said something and people agreed/disagreed
What was rude about all of this?

[true harness]

well, rmah is being rmah

[sleek egret]

I've noticed that some younger people think disagreement is rude/an attack. it's odd.

[zealous path]

Yeah, it was more of “do you know how to program and do you know how to query databases”
The actual language is legacy so they don’t expect anyone to know it

[near ocean]

Well yes but even so he didnt say anything rude from what I see

[sleek egret]

sounds like your employer is actually reasonable (about that at least)

[west badger]

is it though?
if yes then I apologise to everyone

[zealous path]

French company so you know employees would riot if corporate tried some funny business

[sleek egret]

there's no need for you to apologize. I don't think anyone was offended by anything you said.

[west badger]

ok sure then!!!!!

[vapid jay]

The company does not deserve you

[smoky quest]

To answer your original question, it will depend on a host of factors.
The main ones being education and experience.

If you are in HS, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and most opportunities

[west badger]

ok SIR

https://youtu.be/8mAITcNt710
Is this video good to watch??

[smoky quest]

It's very popular introduction course.
Note that it's just the introduction. A full education would take 3-5 years

[west badger]

so should i watch it?

[true harness]

huh, why does freecodecamp have it

[smoky quest]

go for it

[vapid jay]

that is retaliation

[west badger]

and what basics do i need to know before watching it?

[spark cobalt]

Pretty sure it starts from assuming you know nothing.

[west badger]

like not even knowing how to code?

[spark cobalt]

That's what a beginner's course is for.

It looks like it goes from very very beginning lol.

[west badger]

how much very very?

[vapid jay]

I don't have much enthusiasm for CS50, it feels too broad

[spark cobalt]

1 hour of drag and drop coding blocks

[west badger]

what is that

[vapid jay]

They go from scratch to a little bit of C to a little bit of some other lang then end with web languages, it's too scattered to serve as a real introduction to any topic

[spark cobalt]

You'll see. It's for people that never touched any sort of programming at all. Just looked at it.

[west badger]

i know basics of python
should i watch it?

[spark cobalt]

You've asked this like 5 times in the past minute. Just go for it. Skip parts you already know.

[vapid jay]

I would go with an intro course that deals with one language personally, like automating the boring stuff with python, possibly a book on C/C++ or Java. After that I'd do a book on functional programming or the basics of it.

[west badger]

lol ok

but i wwanna learn computer science

[spark cobalt]

Good point. Scattered can end up confusing more than helping.

[vapid jay]

During both I suggest you make random projects like password generators or similar

You'll start with imperative code, graduate to OOP, then during the FP book see how that is written differently, and you'll see the benefits of all 3 paradigms

After that I'd decide what sort of job you want then start pursuing skills/credentials related to it, for instance if you want to be a web dev, start learning about stuff relating to that.
You might want to study precalc, then discrete math, then data structures and algorithms alongside your introductory programming courses/books.

For instance I'd suggest the following 2 independent tracks

Automate the boring stuff with python -> A book on object oriented programming in Java -> A book on the basics of functional programming
precalc -> discrete -> data structures & algorithms (pick a book for each, doesn't matter which really)

After you finish both those tracks branch out into whatever specialization you want

It's not the most direct way to a job but I feel having those courses helped me learn how to teach myself programming without a book or course.

The reason I suggest java isn't because I like the language, but just so you get exposure to other things

[west badger]

but currently i wanna get some experience in python

[vapid jay]

It's not about the language, if you know how to program you're just looking up a languages equivalent structure. For instance python doesn't have for loops like C or java or javascript, but you can just construct an equivalent expression or statement

[supple fossil]

thank you, yes i agree

[vapid jay]

If you are good at programming the language will not matter. The paradigm will matter. If you have exposure to imperative programming, object oriented programming, functional programming, and data structures you can learn any language quickly.

[west badger]

so the video is bad and i should not watch it?

[vapid jay]

I wouldn't say it's bad but I don't think it's a good beginning point if you want to be a professional programmer and especially if you intend to go to university for CS

[spark cobalt]

Stop hesitating and just start with something.

[west badger]

ok

[vapid jay]

Start with the book automating the boring stuff in python, that's how I began

[smoky quest]

You could also do both.
Try them and see 🙂
Pick what works for you

[west badger]

sure

[vapid jay]

This is where I think formal education is super useful btw, consider community college

[west badger]

hmmmm

[vapid jay]

Like having an intro to programming, OOP class, discrete and dsa class was very useful because I don't think I would've had the motivation to teach myself those things

It gets easier once you have those courses under your belt

[west badger]

ok where can i learn these things?

[sleek egret]

programming is like playing guitar. sure you can learn on your own. sure you can take lessons. sure you can learn music theory at university. all help. but in the end, playing guitar is about PLAYING guitar not learning about playing guitar. similarly, programming is about PROGRAMMING. not learning about programming.

[vapid jay]

I just gave you the tracks
Automate the boring stuff with python -> A book on object oriented programming in Java -> A book on the basics of functional programming
precalc -> discrete -> data structures & algorithms (pick a book for each, doesn't matter which really)
Work on projects inbetween, start with a password generator or make simple games like tic tac toe, rock papers scissors, graduate to chess or checkers

[sleek egret]

all that said, go to university, learn the theory. it's important and helpful in many ways.

[spark cobalt]

They should go to college either way. They're completely unsure what to do and don't have any sort of plan to attain what he wants.

(He likely doesn't even know what he wants to begin with. Coming from like 99% of others that come in the channel with vague "I wanna be a Python developer")

[vapid jay]

University forces you to keep learning when you might otherwise not be motivated, and it gives you structure early on
Which you seem to need (most people do and I did)

[sleek egret]

I started programming by writing little loops that printed swear words on a TRS-80 in the store for the lol's

[west badger]

what is precalc->discrete??

[spark cobalt]

Math

[vapid jay]

discrete mathematics

[west badger]

lol

precalculus??

[sleek egret]

no, pre-calc is more advanced HS algebra, trig, sequences, maybe limits. that sort of stuff. it's PRE calculus

well, pre HS calc

[cold marsh]

Hi all, I am a Fall 2022 MS grad in Bioinformatics, with a BS in Biology, trying to start a new career as a data analyst, I have gotten some interviews but struggle with technical interviews. I enjoy programming, mostly in python but I struggle to optimize my code. I have been completing problems on LeetCode for now, would love to chat with anyone with a similar background or just anyone else who feels the struggle or have any suggestions as I do not come from a typical CS background. Thanks!

[sleek egret]

are you not interviewing at places where your bio knowledge matters?

[vapid jay]

I can outline some books for you if you want...
Basic Mathematics by Serge Lang (fulfills precalc) -> Discrete Mathematics and Its Applications by Rosen (fulfills discrete) -> Introduction to Algorithms CLRS (fulfills DSA)
Automating the Boring Stuff with Python (fulfills intro to programming imo) -> Find a java book -> Find a book on basic functional programming

After that do whatever you want based on the profession you are trying to get into (i.e. embedded engineer) or are interested in

You should be able to self teach most things after those

[smoky quest]

You may want to learn more about datastructure and algorithms:

• introduction to algorithms is a great book to learn
• Practice on codingame.com to warm up and then leetcode

You should not have to memorize leetcode exercises

[cold marsh]

yes, a lot of places i have had interviews are in biotech, but i do not want to limit myself and I just want an opportunity for do what i like, which is tell a story with data.

[sleek egret]

that's not "limiting" yourself, that's "specializing". people who are good programmers AND know biotech will do more important work and get paid better than a generalist programmer.

[west badger]

tell me a basic functional programming book

[sleek egret]

but anyway, not sure what to tell you other than the standard stuff. create a portfolio of supporting info (projects, etc) that people reviewing your resume can look at, practice interviewing, etc

[cold marsh]

thanks for the recommendation, I definitely regret not taking a data structures course during grad school (as that was not required for my specific program). ive watched some videos on data structure before on youtube but i will definitely take a look into this book.

[vapid jay]

We used an OCAML book but SICP does a lot of the important stuff you use as features in an imperative/oop lang i.e. scala or js

[spark cobalt]

Abdul Bari is pretty solid.

[vapid jay]

Also some of the books I recommended are hard, so if you find it difficult, find a book that covers the same subject that you vibe with @west badger

Specifically the discrete and dsa book are a bit more rigorous than most, basic mathematics is more rigorous than most precalc books, and SICP is pretty hard

Do the math alongside the programming, the idea is that you're starting FP at the same time as DSA-ish

[cold marsh]

i did not really think of "specializing" before but i do see your point. I guess what i wanted to say is that I am open to any roles where i can work with data in general. but I still do need to improve some of my coding skills for pass the technical interviews.

[sleek egret]

well, that only really happens by writing more code

[vapid jay]

Tbh you can game the technical interviews pretty hard

Leetcoding has very little to do with CRUD development and CRUD dev won't make you better at DSA in any capacity imo, in fact you might get worse

[cold marsh]

i agree, what are you thoughts on Kaggle for practice?

[smoky quest]

You may want to slow down. Don't try to bite more than you can chew.

I would recommend to keep it simple and start easy. You can always learn more later.
https://automatetheboringstuff.com/ is a great intro

[vapid jay]

The standards for good code in CRUD actually avoid optimal solutions they ask for in leetcode because mutation is generally bad and hard to test

[vapid jay]

Please do not stress about it. everything happens for a reason, and I'm sure that you'll find a better job.

The question is how much should you balance actually knowing how to program vs being a DSA/leetcode god
A lot of jobs don't even ask leetcode questions where I live tbh and I over prepared, but I really like the subject

[smoky quest]

I don't see that as incompatible. In both scenario, you want the most optimal solution from a complexity perspective.
leetcode != CP

[vapid jay]

For instance if we use array methods in js we're getting an auxillary space complexity of O(N), technically it's more efficient to mutate

I think they are different skillsets

[sleek egret]

I'll be happy with correct

optimal can come after

[vapid jay]

On another note, I always see people say their company filters with fizzbuzz, but online I see people only talk about leetcode. Do people just not talk about basic 70-80k/y base software jobs?

There are even internships that pay like $20 to $25/h that for some reason do leetcode mediums

[smoky quest]

fizzbuzz can eliminate a lot of the candidates, even for the high tier jobs

[vapid jay]

I had no leetcode during my interview but got a full time job with only 2 years of college and started at like $40/h 80% remote

[sleek egret]

the ones that talk about leetcode are humble-bragging

[vapid jay]

I was only asked fizzbuzz, fibonacci, and nothing about time/space complexity really, I'm not sure if that's more normal or if it's odd

Then when I got into the interview they didn't even care about my projects just that I knew stuff like git, OOP, testing, etc.

[sleek egret]

IME, about 1/3 of people who apply for programming jobs re outright incompetent and don't know what they're doing. by that I mean they can't figure out how to pass arrays to a function and loop over it to sum up numbrs.

[smoky quest]

As a candidate, that would make me worried about the quality of my coworkers

[tawny plover]

no need for algo questions now. there is chat gpt

[vapid jay]

It was more behavioral than technical and I'm not sure if that's the norm basically for positions that aren't too hard. But I find it weird that this was my experience at a full time 80% remote job and 100% in person internships pay less while requiring far more.

[delicate bane]

probably company-dependent

[vapid jay]

I am a bit worried atm lol, planning on leaving eventually. They placed me in a group where everyone knows time/space complexity though.

afaik it's one of the more competent groups though

[smoky quest]

Also the thing is a new kid graduating with a bsc can expect 100k as a starting salary in the USA

[true harness]

i feel like "knowing basic complexity theory" should be like the minimum you should ask for in your coworkers

[delicate bane]

or you can just learn/upskill...?

[vapid jay]

Yeah.

[delicate bane]

since thatll be important knowledge moving forward anyway

[vapid jay]

Which means I will leave eventually and find a new job with the things I learn there and on the side yeah.

I already said I did a bit of leetcode this job just didn't ask any.

[sleek egret]

"leetcode" style questions are essentially IQ tests

which is fine as far as it goes. but it's almost never the sole criteria

[vapid jay]

A lot of them are just matching a pattern you probably memorized previously from a different question/example though.

[delicate bane]

you know, at the conference, they were saying only in the tech industry do you have peeps leaving companies so often. they said you dont see this in other industries like accounting, etc. and i was like hmm idk is this true

[smoky quest]

Not really.
leetcode is about demonstrating DSA skills with the minimum amount of context

[delicate bane]

i know nurses leave hospital systems quite often but thats more due to a number of factors more so than culture of the industry

[sleek egret]

it's a matter of degree. the tenure of software developers is shorter then average. but so are about 1/2 of other occupations.

[vapid jay]

It's because other industries have no leverage

If you want to be paid better as a delivery driver job hopping won't accomplish much because the labor market is too saturated for that field, too many people waiting to replace you

[sleek egret]

bartenders and waitresses move jobs just as often as programmers. they have almost no leverage.

[near ocean]

tfw your coworkers turn dicts into lists of tuples

[true harness]

change jobs

[vapid jay]

It seems the value you provide is correlated much less with your compensation than the availability of similar labor

[sleek egret]

hire better

[near ocean]

I'll stick to intense code review thank you, its fun

[spark cobalt]

I don't think it's for the same reasons. Typically what I've seen in restaurants are like college students or other people who have reasons to leave besides getting more money. Or they have to start doing other things related to school.

[vapid jay]

For instance EMTs only make $12-15/h in most areas, EMT-As like $20, paramedics like $22-25 if they're lucky and that's with years of experience and legal liability

[smoky quest]

like a market with supply and demand 😉

[vapid jay]

Right, so they'll exploit you unless you have a favorable market, that's capitalism, they just can't harvest 100% of your excess labor because of market demand outpacing market supply in that sector

[delicate bane]

i also dont think its for the same reasons. also i think they originally meant more salaried jobs than hourly ones as a basis of comparison.

[zealous path]

£20,000 in UK 🙂

[vapid jay]

Meanwhile there is no shortage in other fields of labor, whether it be due to low credential requirements, immigration, low knowledge requirements, etc.

Like EMTs are definitely producing more than $12/h in value, it's just they're easier to exploit

[sleek egret]

yes, if you're really good at programming. the language is sort of incidental

[delicate bane]

emigration when

jk. unless..?

[smoky quest]

You would need to learn more than python.
If you are in HS or college, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and most opportunities

[near ocean]

£20k sounds too low, theres grad schemes that start at 27k that would take you with a 2:2 degree even

[zealous path]

Data analysis/engineering is a possibility

[smoky quest]

nice!

[sleek egret]

hmm, good point. if you're 30 and have been programming 10 years and still know ONLY python... that is a red flag

[vapid jay]

If you've only worked in python you're probably not a good programmer tho due to lack of exposure to other paradigms

[zealous path]

1st gen immigrant 😎

[spark cobalt]

With some exceptions I guess, like Data Science. But if your role is SWE, yeah only knowing 1 language is icky. DS not really SWE.

[delicate bane]

i promise you even in DS, you need to know more than python. at the very least SQL is a must.

[spark cobalt]

Oh good point

[vapid jay]

Even in data science it's probably indicative of you not having DSA or SWE skills or being good at abstraction

[sleek egret]

even in "data science". you should know excel, sql, etc

[true harness]

vba 🥴

[still condor]

who summoned me 👀

[vapid jay]

Like asking someone to know DSA if they're going to be programming regardless of their domain knowledge isn't a big ask tbh

[delicate bane]

the amount of times when they say "can we get this in excel". no matter what you build.

[sleek egret]

I always read your nick as "optimum puppy" as in "the best puppy"

[vapid jay]

If you're qualified to do data science you probably already know the equivalent of discrete

[zealous path]

Yeah, it’s closer to 25-30k, just wanted to be a bit silly teehee

[spark cobalt]

Sucks :c

[delicate bane]

there were a lot of DS at the conference btw. tons of bright folks and great convos

[spark cobalt]

Is Octave and MPL used a lot?

[sleek egret]

in fairness, the average starting salary for software developers out of school in the US is probably more like $70k to $80k. but a substantial fraction get $100k+

[vapid jay]

^ median

[still condor]

where I live £20,000 per year (after taxes) would be an insanely high salary for a junior 👀

[sleek egret]

but that also means a substantial fraction also only make $50k or $60k

[vapid jay]

Average where I live is like 96k in MCOL
Median might be 75-80 as you say, that sounds correct
starting

[delicate bane]

wait what. care to elaborate?

[spark cobalt]

I mean it just depends on location

[sleek egret]

what about £100,000 ?

[still condor]

Well, < is transitive, so that's basically impossible

[spark cobalt]

What are the more lucrative roles in Europe?

[sleek egret]

huh?

[still condor]

?

[sleek egret]

Wilder: heiress to a royal family fortune. a major real estate owner.

[spark cobalt]

Fair enough

[delicate bane]

something in finance?

[vapid jay]

UK/Germany/Scandinavia will have the high salaries, it's too broad to say

[near ocean]

UK tech salaries are shite, as they say

[vapid jay]

Spain they'll get a pittance of like 20-25k if they're lucky afaik

[sleek egret]

well, it's spain. you get sunshine and siesta instead

[zealous path]

Bruh

[vapid jay]

Where as the housing costs in those countries are actually as high or higher than the US in many cases, with higher tax rates, so it's even worse than it seems

[zealous path]

Fin tech pays crazy but fuck those people

[sleek egret]

UK tech salaries are reasonable/ok if you know finance and work in "the city"

[still condor]

🇷🇺
Cost of living is slightly lower than Europe, but salaries are a few times lower.
And I can't really work for companies abroad because of... some widely known unfortunate circumstances

[delicate bane]

one siesta please :🙋‍♂️

[vapid jay]

My family was from the UK originally, there is no reason to go back except cultural affinity or similar, or if you're too poor to live in the US

[sleek egret]

why fuck us?

[zealous path]

Hedge fund bad

[near ocean]

This is such a small percentage of tech jobs in the UK tho, kind of wild to base an opinion off of that

[sleek egret]

why do you think they're bad?

[vapid jay]

European tech jobs seem to have lower standards than US tech jobs tho

[delicate bane]

cant move? i know some from your country that were able to and find a better life. heck we even have one regular here

[zealous path]

Capitalism grrrr too many monies

[sleek egret]

I see. ok.

[spark cobalt]

I love capitalism when it benefits me tbh.

[zealous path]

Me fr fr

[true harness]

speaking of which, my restaurant starting accepting tips for online orders

[spark cobalt]

Bruh

[vapid jay]

tip your landlord and gas station attendant

[still condor]

Yeah it's still technically possible to move to Kazakhstan, Armenia, Georgia (?) and Kyrgyzstan. But I don't really have a "buffer" to make the move right now, and I'd have to send quite a lot of money to my family in addition to paying for rent and such

[true harness]

tip your chipotle bowl makers

[sleek egret]

globalism and capitalism have lifted more people out of abject poverty over the last 50 years than in the entire history of human civilization before. both in terms of raw numbers and %'s. it has led to a world where people are wealthier, better educated, healthier, and subject to less arbitrary violence than ever before.

[vapid jay]

^ don't care pay me

[sleek egret]

historically speaking, we currently live during the golden age of man. look around you. it has literally never been this good for this many. don't let dreams of utopia distract you from the reality of pretty good.

[delicate bane]

talk to Darkwind when you get the chance. im sure hes more than happy to share you his situation/how he did it. think hes in Georgia atm.

[true harness]

it has also increased income inequality by like 70x

[spark cobalt]

The bottom will always be the same. The top increased is the point.

[vapid jay]

A lot of people are in effective wage slavery where they work shitty jobs that can't cover rent and are entirely reliant on the state to exist but still can't pursue education because they'd lose their benefits

[sleek egret]

better inequality than digging in the dirt and wondering why the gods let half your children die before they turned 2 yrs old

[zealous path]

“People are healthier, more educated….”
Corpos also have a tighter grasp around my neck now.
Not even gonna start with the state of insulin in the US

[vapid jay]

Modern capitalism is the socialization of costs and privatization of profits

[spark cobalt]

The best we can do as a society is do our best to equal out the opportunities of those born in different inequalities. Though that is a huge convoluted topic of its own.

[sleek egret]

That's the thing, "the bottom" used to be 90% of world's people living in abject poverty. now it's only around 30% of the world.

[vapid jay]

The USA is rich mostly because of geography, resources, global military dominance, and capitalism is like the icing on top

[true harness]

alright alright, this is careers, not globalization-discussion

[still condor]

#marx-general

[sleek egret]

ok, ok

[spark cobalt]

One of my teams got a new Director managing us . We're a 3 person team now

Hopefully it all goes well. Though he probably will hate how me and the other dude does things

[zealous path]

My company had 4 dep heads (each diff dep) and tried merging 2 so we would have 3 deps.
Company: “you 4 can interview for the 3 available slots, we won’t pull from outside”
3/4 dep heads: “nah, imma dip”

[dreamy shadow]

Sometimes I hate statistics. "This means we don't have sufficient evidence to say that there is a statistical difference between the means". How tf do i even english?

[zealous path]

And then about 10-15 employees following suit….

[vapid jay]

that's gross

[sleek egret]

that seems pretty clear to me

[dreamy shadow]

It doesn't imply that there is a statistical difference btw.

[true harness]

say "indicates there is no significant difference"

[zealous path]

Not really, they felt like 2 deps should be closer together. (Some agree, some don’t)
And it wasn’t “you 4 fight to throw 1 out”, it was more “please 3 of you stay, who doesn’t get a payout instead”

[sleek egret]

yes... that's what "don't have" means

[leaden jasper]

I want to remind folks that this channel should be about discussing careers. General chatter should go to one of our off topic channels

[sleek egret]

did you mean to say "it doesn't imply there isn't a statistical difference"? if so, of course it doesn't.

[graceful wagon]

If I don't have the right amount of words though as the original template, the spacing / indentation / etc can all look janky. Which you need to know latex to update

because I was saying I didn't want a latex template haha

[dreamy shadow]

The phrasing makes me pull hair every time.

[graceful wagon]

Any chance you have the template for it?

[zealous path]

@graceful wagon back to #python-discussion with you

[graceful wagon]

but I want resume help 😦

[zealous path]

Ah my bad, i saw {} and thought coding

[smoky quest]

Nothing I can share unfortunately

[graceful wagon]

yeah only insofar as latex could be counted as coding haha

[sand patio]

How much value would hackathons provide on college apps?

[zealous path]

Depends how “official” they are

[sand patio]

I see

[true harness]

that seems like a poorly made template

[cold marsh]

I say good for networking for sure, might be worth on college app as extra curricular idk.

[true harness]

not that much, unless you win. you could of course, write about them in an essay

[sand patio]

any big ones I should take note of?

(For more context, I'm planning on going into CS).

[zealous path]

Local highschool: …..
MIT funded comp: yeah, definitely
National tournament: hell yeah

[sand patio]

I see. Fair enough, I can go ahead and try.

[true harness]

you can do it 😤😤😤

[zealous path]

Don’t take my word for it but the lowest level I’ve seen anyone brag about a comp is regionals

[sand patio]

Thanks for the insight, I'll take note.

[smoky quest]

it also greatly depends on how relevant it is to the job.
Winning a hackathon developping a mobile app wouldn't be useful for some unrelated area

[sand patio]

and for applying to colleges?

[smoky quest]

No idea. my input is students coming out of it

[graceful wagon]

Does it? Let's say I use one less project than them or have one less work experience, the resume appears short. I'm not sure what can be done differently on the template to account for that. I just don't have the latex skill to then edit it to look nice with what is there

[cold marsh]

What happened to A for effort lol? I guess they do have to applicable to your goals/aims?

[smoky quest]

people get paid for result, not their effort

[true harness]

fair enough ig. it's not really that hard to learn basic latex though, just copy the things that already exist in the template

[cold marsh]

It’s not always about money for some, but point taken.

[smoky quest]

I wasn't restricting myself to the pay.
For instance, that's a reason why tech companies don't really care when the engineers come in and out and why you would see that bright engineer who comes in at 11am.

[true harness]

wdym what happened. no one cares if you competed and lost lol

[cold marsh]

The person who competed and lost cares….

[smoky quest]

They definitely should!
What's your take on the expected outcome for them?

As someone managing people, I would take it as a great learning opportunity for them

[hardy halo]

I really don't like my job anymore...

Me complaining is the best career discussion

[zealous path]

Mood

[hardy halo]

Exhausted

[still condor]

what do you not like about it?

[dreamy shadow]

[hardy halo]

I want to bring in my ideas in to the job, but they just ignore them.

And I have to code the GUI on JavaScript Canvas.

[hardy halo]

Just inefficient and hard to do.

[still condor]

that definitely sounds strange

why such a choice?

[hardy halo]

Because there it has no limitation

[still condor]

someone must hate CSS even more than me 🙂

[hardy halo]

But I don't have infinite time to create it.

[hardy halo]

Yeah, I often really think that they don't know what is possible today by just using html,css and js in a combination

[still condor]

What reasons did they give? Maybe there are some specific limitations?

Or maybe there's already a lot of code using canvas?

[hardy halo]

No, I basically had to start from 0 with canvas a few months ago.

[orchid brook]

guys is doing a co-op worth graduating a semester late

like if it was a coop with tesla or microsoft id say it’s worth it because id wanna work there post graduation

[hardy halo]

One reason they gave me is, that the software should look different from other software created with frameworks.

[hardy halo]

It doesn't really make any sense.

[spare sundial]

hey what does a python coding job pay these days?

[still condor]

Yeah it makes zero sense tbh 😄

Of all things, you'd want your software to have a familiar feel to what your potential customers are used to.

[hardy halo]

Yes exactly

[still condor]

What does the application do? (if that's not a trade secret or something)

[still condor]

depends on where you live, what field you want to work with, your experience, your skills and a lot of other factors 🙂

[dreamy shadow]

Having some real experience helps you when you finally graduated. Better hire the new grad with intern experience than without.

[orchid brook]

but summer internship experience counts right

[spare sundial]

hrm, ok.

[spark cobalt]

Anywhere from like 20k to 500k

[dreamy shadow]

Yes, that counts too.

[hardy halo]

It is a application for restaurants. Basically a POS(point of sail) software for waiters.

Should work on a variety of screens

[spare sundial]

Well in my case I've been doing this I was 1997, have met Guido since I started with it in my high school summer internship at NIST back when I was 17

[orchid brook]

isnt summer internship/research experience with semester long meaningful industry projects and on time graduation better than graduating late but 6 months work experience with $30k saved?

[spare sundial]

ha

I particularly like security projects in python

[still condor]

if you take part-time jobs and different locations into account, you can move the lower plank a lot

although I doubt that applies in this case 😄

[dreamy shadow]

It really depends at an individual case.

[orchid brook]

like if i let go of this co-op offer

ill have to do research again most likely

but i still get the semester and I can try for a big tech internship junior year

[smoky quest]

if you graduate, there isn't a point in another internship

[orchid brook]

Now im a second year student

So i still have another summer which is my plan for the big main internship which would then help get a full time offer

[smoky quest]

ah yeah

[orchid brook]

so for my sophomore year summer I can do research again which helps tremendously in grad school and somewhat in the internship search or I can get the coop which means ill work the summer after my second year and the following semester

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to make a list of pros/cons for each scenario.
It's not as black and white and it can be quite nuanced

[orchid brook]

True

[sleek egret]

don't forget to capitalize Big Tech

[coarse torrent]

It seems like many companies want their employees back in the office. The best way to do this is to at least provide breakfast, lunch, and dinner + a gym with personal trainers. I would go every day M-F to the office

It's just that easy.

[white relic]

I hate working from home. I go to the office every day. The greatest thing about an office is that when you're done with work you can leave it

[coarse torrent]

yeah exactly, i feel like WFH is over hyped, all these people hyping it up probably have a good WFH setup. theres too many distractions for me here

[white relic]

admittedly, my commute right now is about 10 minutes

[coarse torrent]

oh wow, mine is 1 hour, which is why i never go nor am i expected to go

[white relic]

Aye. I'm going to miss it when I buy a house and bump that up to half an hour at least

[near ocean]

Bed to couch commute gang gang

[deft herald]

you work on your couch?

[near ocean]

I try, sometimes people want me to think and so i move to my desk for that

[deft herald]

ha, sounds about right

I've yet to attend a meeting from the bathtub, though i've thought about it multiple times

[coarse torrent]

What about from the toilet?

[true harness]

that's... not easy lol

[zealous path]

Wake up 9:50, start work at 10:00 😎

[near ocean]

More like work starts at 9:00 wake up 9:20 💀
Flexible hours amirite

[true harness]

salaried worker moment

[zealous path]

Shhhhh 🤫

My company’s policy is “do 7 hours of work anytime between 08:00 and 18:00”

[white relic]

I had a 7:00 a.m. meeting Monday

For the Europeans it was afternoon.

[true harness]

east coast team? ah, further east

[zealous path]

Was gonna say

[white relic]

good guess

[spark cobalt]

9 PM meeting tonight

[vapid jay]

Damn wfh

[spark cobalt]

Yeah I'm home all day

[buoyant seal]

i certainly love my wfh. Truly flexible hours. Sometimes i just work at night if i felt i was not really working diligent enough during day.
workday starts at any time and ends the same. Only total hours per week matter. And common sense that better getting 8 hours done at the same day.
and only one meeting per week at 1 PM
i just report once a week to what tasks i spent hours

[vapid jay]

Guys anyone in quantitative finance? I have the task of interpreting a complicated .py file containing survivorship bias free data? (ohlcv data to be precise)

I might need a bit of a help

[near ocean]

You can ask in a thread #1035199133436354600

[vapid jay]

sure!

[waxen void]

Hi Guys! would love to hear your input! Does anyone here take PCAP – Certified Associate in Python Programming https://pythoninstitute.org/pcap ? I am required to take this certification to get into the job market. I am gathering some information for my study materials. Many thanks in advance

[true harness]

I am required to take this certification to get into the job market.
says who 🤔

[waxen void]

the placement agency. Note: I have no prior work experience.

[spark cobalt]

I did. It's okay as a learning resource, but PCAP is generally very very simple and easy if you're prepared to work as a junior dev.

As long as you go through their learning platform you'll be fine

[waxen void]

Thanks, would love to hear your tips on how to pass. May I know what study materials did you use? I am searching for a practice test on Udemy but I can't seem to find a reliable one. Thanks!

[spark cobalt]

I just went through their learning platform.

Just do the assignments and miniprojects they give and you'll be fine.

[waxen void]

https://edube.org/study/pe2 this one? Does this apply to no experience in Python? I have no years of experience so good luck to me! I am just an aspiring one.

[spark cobalt]

Yes. Though you should go through the PCEP first. PCAP is the 2nd level.

[waxen void]

That's what I thought but they required us to take this 😦 . If you don't mind me asking, how many hours do you study per day? Did you watch a lot of practice tests on youtube too?

[spark cobalt]

No I just went through their course. Their course gives enough assignments and practice that it's pretty hard to fail if you've went through all of them.

The test is just multiple choice questions, and they don't like slam you over with trick questions.

If you've coded enough, you shouldn't have any issues with passing.

[waxen void]

Wow! I might double my time to study as I need repetition to study more. I've read about some who failed the exam and it stressed me out and anxious.

[waxen void]

Hmmm, that's my problem hehehe

[spark cobalt]

Just code, don't try to cheat with looking at solutions online, everything's given in the text.

Everything on the test is in the text.

[waxen void]

thanks, are they going to provide the on-set IDE for a specific question?

[spark cobalt]

It's just multiple choice questions. There's no IDE.

[waxen void]

That is great to hear! 🙂

[spark cobalt]

There are some like "short answer" questions iirc, but it's like filling in like a word.

[waxen void]

Thanks, good to know

[waxen void]

thank you, I will keep that in mind. I am getting nervous now even though there is no exam date yet hehehe

[spark cobalt]

Nothing to be nervous about. You'll do fine.

[waxen void]

Thank you for the kind words and for sharing your experience. By the way, how many hours do you study per day?

[spark cobalt]

I don't really remember.

[waxen void]

That's okay, thank you and I really appreciate it!

[spark cobalt]

Gl

[waxen void]

https://tenor.com/view/thank-you-thanks-thank-you-so-much-gif-26013473

[fervent marlin]

im a product designer, i was wondering if i can get a job at IOT design? i do adaptive design which is incorporating experimental ideas and or tech into an existing product

adaptive and responsive product design*

[smoky quest]

there is definitely a need for that.
Physical products can be complicated, especially if your target audience is non-technical

[true harness]

The pay for this position has a salary range of $0.00 to $0.00. The actual salary offer will carefully consider a wide range of factors, including your skills, qualifications, experience and location. Also, certain positions are eligible for additional forms of compensation such as bonuses.
a lot of good those laws requiring salary ranges did

[steel kindle]

So if I already accepted a job offer, but for an OA for a company that pays better that I’d also consider working for, should I complete it anyways just to feel the option out

[peak halo]

What is "OA"?

[steel kindle]

Online assessment, like a technical interview that’s not an actual interview

I haven’t studied algorithms in a few months, but I should be able to do ok on it

[peak halo]

Why would you have an online assessment if they already offered you the job?

[spark cobalt]

For a different job I think. Worded weirdly...

[steel kindle]

Yeah sorry, poor wording lol. It’s for a different job

[peak halo]

If you already accepted a job offer, it would be bad form to back out.

[steel kindle]

Yes, but the other job pays more and this one doesn’t start for 7 months, so it’s not like I’m leaving them high and dry

[smoky quest]

how much better?
What about the other factors?

[steel kindle]

Like $30,000 a year more in base comp, and another $30,000 in stock

They’re both well known companies, second one is a startup, first one is well established

[smoky quest]

short of moving from a LCOL to a HCOL, that's a pretty wide gap.
Either way, considering that amount of money and it's still many months ahead, I would go for it

[steel kindle]

Same city too

One is in SF, one is outside of it, but I’d be living in the same place regardless

[smoky quest]

weird they could get away like that

[steel kindle]

Wym

[smoky quest]

for the same COL, the comp should be pretty close. If anything, the established company should have a higher base comp comparing to the startup

[steel kindle]

They have different WLB, but both are good. The first one is just about the best I think I can get.

And admittedly they are an hour away, the COL would change for most people, it just won’t in my personal situation since I’m living in the same place regardless

[smoky quest]

the bay area is big. Whether you are in SF or livermore or SJ or Palo Alto, the comp should be the same

[spark cobalt]

SJ gang

[steel kindle]

I mean yeah then most of it likely WLB

[spark cobalt]

Is the 1 hour drive at least like hybrid or something? One of my coworkers drive from SF to SJ and they hate it and end up just coming once a week (mostly to just get a break from home cuz they have a baby lol)

[steel kindle]

Where I accepted the offer it’s the norm for new hires to take 25-30 days of pto their first year. Even though both have sub 40 hour weeks most weeks and are hybrid.

[steel kindle]

Yes it is, it’ll be 1-2 days a week in office with either company. I’ll be living in Marin, so it’ll be a drive to SF or a drive to tri valley. The higher paying one would be a shorter commute though.

But I also know that the manager at the job I accepted is fine with my leaving the state or working in other countries the company has a tax presence in, idk if that goes for this other one

But that’s a big perk for me

[smoky quest]

You haven't gotten an offer yet, so I wouldn't worry too much.
But it doesn't hurt to prepare a list of pros/cons

[steel kindle]

Yeah I’ll just complete the assessment and see how it goes. Like I said I haven’t studied in months so I might just do poorly on it lol

[brisk sonnet]

Does anybody have any idea when github account and brave creator account can be linked again?

I think, I could write software to help people finance their medicines.

[true harness]

is that careers related?

[brisk sonnet]

is, a little bit like same earning logic as Ubuntu, free product but donations are welcome

[true harness]

huh?

[peak halo]

@brisk sonnet I don't see the connection. this channel is for talking about the workplace, job hunting, and education as it pertains to careers.

[vapid jay]

Need experience for job
Need job for experience

The chicken came before the egg
The egg came before the chicken

🤔

These paradoxes have baffled the world since time memorial.

We may never know the key to solving the mystery.

[true harness]

a degree

[spark cobalt]

[peak halo]

You're right. A degree is the easiest way to break the cycle.

[vapid jay]

I wonder which school has the most convoluted curriculum

[vapid jay]

Or is it 🤔

[peak halo]

yes...

[vapid jay]

Any career advisor??

[peak halo]

Get a degree, do internships, apply for jobs.

[final jackal]

holy fuck python is pink now

[dreamy shadow]

I guess I have the wrong job. Data scientist with "strong pc skills" defined as Microsoft Office.

[final jackal]

nahhh 💀💀

[dreamy shadow]

Reading job descriptions are so depressing.
Oh I have this and kinda this....oh but I don't have that, or that, or a masters (yet)

[proper raven]

God made the chicken in the garden solved

[final jackal]

bros in ohio

[final jackal]

fr fr i need to get one too and their requirements are just absurd

[steel kindle]

Just apply, you don’t necessarily need to fill everything they request

[forest skiff]

Pls who knows how to make a logo

[orchid sinew]

Yeah what Dylan said, I take requirements very loosely and shot my shot and am now working a very good first software job.

[final jackal]

coding a logo in python or making it in photoshop?

[granite void]

How much Math and what concepts I need to know to work as a Data Scientist or Machine Learning Engineer?

[near ocean]

Office skills are a must for most jobs really
Idk about "strong" though

[steel kindle]

A lot of liberal algebra, calculus, statistics, and probability

You should be very comfortable with all of the basic concepts in those areas

Although those 2 roles are pretty different

[granite void]

I see, but the concepts applied are same right?

[white relic]

liberal algebra

[spark cobalt]

I read that as liberal agenda and I was like

[vapid jay]

anybody any good book recommendations for computational phyiscs?

[spare ridge]

Guys is there like a minimum eligibility for school percentage to land a job in faang ( i have like 59.2% in 10th grade which i think is a bit low ). Thanks in advance

[near ocean]

For high school? Probably not. But that would affect which universities you can get into possibly.

[spare ridge]

Okay but there isen't like a eligibility for faang if i have low in high school?

[white relic]

High school grades won't matter once you've been accepted to university.

[near ocean]

Aiming for a faang job might not be the best idea right now anyway lol

[spare ridge]

thank you guys.

[white relic]

Literally nobody has ever asked me how I did in HS since my first day in college. It's irrelevant

[spark cobalt]

"Eligibility" is loaded. One of my friends is at Apple as a contractor for 3 years and he didn't even have a CS degree. Did Econ degree and then did a bootcamp.

But, in general, you'll see people from top colleges in STEM and people having done a CS degree will land at FAANG, it's just about improving your odds.

More importantly, previous YOE will help land you a role at FAANG the most. Which is way after education...

[near ocean]

Some UK peeps have such a hard on for qualifications that they ask for years of exp and then also ask about your a-levels

[spare ridge]

Thank you.

[white relic]

Wow, I think I'd walk out of that interview. But I guess maybe it's different here

[spark cobalt]

That's crazy.

[white relic]

Lots of students don't really engage in HS and then turn it around when they go to college, because it's a better environment or because they're able to study stuff they're interested in or for whatever reason

[spark cobalt]

Let kids be kids

[near remnant]

can i use the internet for take home assignment for a job?

this is my first one and i'm not sure

[spark cobalt]

Yes.

[silk gust]

has anyone here completed cs50 (the free online harvard computer science course)

ive almost finished it, im on week 9 of 10, and im beginning to think of ideas for my final project but im unsure what to do for it, anyone got potential ideas? for me to get my certificate i need to complete a final project of my own and im stuck on what i could make for it

[spark cobalt]

What do you wanna make

[silk gust]

probably some form of web application that uses python alongside html, css, etc (the typical web development languages)

im still learning how to use python for web development, and am not super comfortable yet, but its getting covered in these final weeks so ill hopefully gain a greater understanding of it

we are using flask framework in the course btw if that helps

[spark cobalt]

Something fun you could make is a website that can help you with whatever you do day to day.

If you play a game, a resource manager, calculators, and other game utilities are things you can make. Interactable maps, those sorts of things.

[silk gust]

ohh thats an interesting idea

with you saying that im thinking i could make some time management website because im in my final year of high school atm and there is a lot of studying, meaning ill need to manage my time

[spark cobalt]

Something really great on your resume is something that has an active userbase for it. Many games are in desperate needs of resources like these and with like a simple Reddit post you can amass thousands of MAU (monthly active users) easily.

[silk gust]

so what kind of thing are you meaning for games?

[spark cobalt]

An active userbase will allow the application to grow itself with suggestions critiques, etc.

[weak magnet]

is their any good college alternatives to a computer science degree or would it be better off attending college?

[spark cobalt]

For example, a card gacha game can make something like:
https://afkhelper.nax.is/ - A place for people to store their past clears for campaign stages.
https://genshin-center.com/ - A place for people to store data of their heroes with goals, and it helps people with planning which resources to target for with goals they make.
https://afkit.tools/ - A place to store your information about your heroes, which has another interface through Discord and allows you to send information of your heroes in Discord really nicely, with filtering options, etc.

All these, even though they have a completely wide range of how they're built in quality and whatnot, all have 10k+ MAU

Free websites (or really free anything lol) are the most in demand things. As long as it helps people marginally, you can get a solid userbase. And this is something that really stands out as a project when put on your resume.

[spark cobalt]

Alternatives to college are like night and day. You'd be better off attending college.

[silk gust]

how could i make something like that for a multiplayer fps game such as overwatch (my main game i play)

obviously its a bit different to something like an rpg game

[weak magnet]

does it matter what college you attend?

[spark cobalt]

There's apps like Valorant tracker, that probably has like millions of users. Just think of what kind of application you want to have for Overwatch and see how reasonable it is to build it.

The only real difference in getting MAU is just if there's already an application that's accepted by the community, you might have a hard time getting users.

[spark cobalt]

No, not really.

Over course of your career it won't matter. Though some colleges are much better suited in helping you at the start through either college prestige, location, etc.

[steel kindle]

Lmao that’s what it is

[silk gust]

yeah ive used valorant tracker a lot, i could maybe make some form of application that you can see your stats in overwatch on a webpage like val tracker

so seeing things such as winrates for each character, ranks for each role, average kd, damage, heals, time played, etc per hero

[steel kindle]

Wdym

[spark cobalt]

I mean if you put ads on it, can get money too. Just need to make sure you build something that isn't already made and accepted by the community. Market research and other stuff you may have to do if you want to aim for a project that gets MAU eventually.

[steel kindle]

Like is stats used in data science? That’s basically what it is. linear algebra and calculus are fundamental for stats and probability

[silk gust]

@spark cobalt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6hpRQdHQ2M&ab_channel=NoobCoder ik its for fortnite and not overwatch but i could follow along with something like this, and then make it look nice with css

[spark cobalt]

I would avoid following a tutorial.

[silk gust]

even tho im still learning and am not sure how to do it off the top of my head?

[spark cobalt]

Really get in the mud and be super conscious of every line you write. You want to know every inch and every reasoning for every line of your project.

[spark cobalt]

Everyone gets to that point eventually 🙂, the first step in doing it is just trying.

[silk gust]

that is true, its been super hard and kind of demotivating that even after doing nearly an entire course, i still feel very lost with programming and still have so much to improve on

i feel like i only know the basics and i dont know where to go and how to improve after the course is done

[spark cobalt]

It sounds like you might be in tutorial hell. You just have to embrace the uncomfortability with it all and code, code and more code.

If programming was easy, everyone would do it. It's a hill for everyone to go over.

You improve by just coding. By just doing.

[silk gust]

and by coding, do i just try and come up with little tasks for myself?

[white relic]

If you only do stuff that comes easily to you, you will struggle to progress in your career.
(He said, mostly to himself 😩)

[spark cobalt]

Yep. Ideally throughout the course of CS50 you should have been doing mini projects to really solidify what you've learned.

[silk gust]

i feel like everyone falls into that trap with not only programming, but like everything in life

[spark cobalt]

This is like learning how to swim. Right now you just read a book on how to swim, but you aren't going to get any better until you're actually in the waters.

[silk gust]

fair point

but even then with cs50, some of the problem sets have become so hard that i just had to search up how to do certain sections (i never searched a full solution straight off the start), but only after being stuck for so so so long that it just feels like i will be there eternally, and if i do look at solutions for certain sections of the problem set, i read it and try to comprehend it as much as i possibly can

[white relic]

I mean, yeah. And there are times when you can take it a bit easier. You don't have to be going 1000% all the time. But if you want to learn stuff you have to look for opportunities to do things you don't yet know how to do

[spark cobalt]

I think that just comes with how you approach a problem. If you just do problems without ever considering how you're going to structure, how the logic will be done, etc. for your project, you're bound to fail. For problems you were struggling, have you ever went to the drawing board to draw out charts of how logic works, etc.?

[silk gust]

yeah most of the time i knew what i had to do, and a rough idea of what code i needed to right, i just never knew how to actually type it out

[spark cobalt]

No one should and you're never expected to just go right into coding ever. There's a process in precisely understanding what the requirements of the problem is, then a process in how to do it strategically to minimize on errors and maximize on efficiency and to keep it maintainable, etc.

[silk gust]

especially when it came to certain things such as dictionaries, lists, etc

[spark cobalt]

I think that's just due to lack of practice. Just didn't code enough, and you seem to be hesitating a bit as well.

[silk gust]

i feel fairly comfortable when there are no data structures involved, but once data structures are involved, i just struggle a lot

[silk gust]

yeah, i need to probably study on data structures more too, and then practice it, then hopefully wont be as much of an issue

[median oyster]

I’ve been trying to find an entry level job since August and only a few first stage interviews

Anyone else in same boat?

[granite void]

I mean do we require different math skills in both of the domains?

I have heard it's linear algebra for machine learning and statistics for data science

[spark cobalt]

Started applying around the same time, but got a job in October

[steel kindle]

Yeah I mean the depth will differ, but you need a solid basis in all for both

ML is used in data science, they have a lot of overlap

[gritty rivet]

The fact that you're getting any interviews is promising 🙂 Did you learn anything you can improve from those interview experiences? In any case, keep at it and I'm sure you'll get something!

[vapid jay]

use exit()

[spare sundial]

job.exit(destination="another job") ^_^

[near ocean]

Bilingual peeps what language do you use at work when dealing with international offices

We mostly use english at work but sometimes i gotta talk to people that know i can speak their language and its all awkward when they switch it up on me lol

[spark cobalt]

We need more people like you. 99.99% of my work speaks another language fluently and I don't and I feel alienated sometimes

[near ocean]

I hate it when they do it, i try to pretend i dont know the language but my name kind of gives it away
It feels unprofessional, dirty almost

Also its harder to explain issues cause i studied in the UK, i have no technical vocab in the language they use

[west badger]

Yooo!

[zealous path]

Someone who knows their stuff gonna tell be I’m wrong, but…
You need the skills to get into an interview
But you need good personality and mindset to get past the interview

[near ocean]

Its not really one thing at each step
You need to be personable, likeable and also adept throughout all stages of an application process

Getting an interview is less about skill and more about connections/how your cv looks like/luck kind of

I've seen people come for an interview with super stacked CVs and likeable personalities and not get past fizzbuzz

[zealous path]

👀 that’s a yikes

TF was that?

[near ocean]

Lying or being desperate or both

[zealous path]

And we’re talking:

1. couldn’t make a good fizz buzz
   or
2. just straight up couldn’t do it?

[analog sun]

The bot doing its thing

[near ocean]

I mean, fizz buzz is fizz buzz lol, how good can you make it?
Its more about not knowing basic syntax and idioms than anything
One guy came in and started hardcoding a list with 30 elements to test his function instead of using range, took him a solid minute

[zealous path]

😳 BRUH…..
Homie really capping on his CV

good fizz buzz as in: you wrote it in 5 lines vs 20

[vapid jay]

I wrote 21 lines 😭

[near ocean]

Its not really about lines of code either but yea anyway

For hiring juniors the expectation isnt that they write perfect code but that they understand a problem and even if they dont, they dont feel bad or ashamed about asking questions about it and also they dont struggle with basic syntax lol

[spark cobalt]

There are some consulting companies that when you go through them, they'll make you lie on your resume then teach you how to back up the lie. An example of this is Beaconfire Solutions.

But yeah when you're desperate, it's super easy to oversell, which also makes it super easy for an interviewer to tell how much bullshit is in your resume.

[spare sundial]

quietly puts away his resume

/s

[sleek egret]

yar

[quasi jetty]

Hi! When u look for jobs and u say u know python does it matter how u learnt it? Like would they prefer someone who went to uni over someone who has a certificate & learnt the skills on their own? Does it matter?

[spare sundial]

@quasi jetty learning python is easy; employers want someone who can work well with a team and has familiarity with team processes for software development.

[vapid jay]

Help 😩
#1070359966826901565 message

[near remnant]

Do people use ChatGPT for take home assignments?

[vapid jay]

ChatGPT isn't really that good. Suggest using your domestic AI instead.

[sleek egret]

Yes, it matters "how u learnt it"

[near remnant]

I only use ChatGPT to ask it rate my code and asking questions in technologies I dont have experience with. Is this okay? I dont want ChatGPT to solve the whole take home assignment.

[steel kindle]

Tbh I would just say this is unhelpful

[near ocean]

Universities are accredited institutions and certificates are pieces of paper from wherever that nobody checks or certifies

[steel kindle]

ChatGPT isn’t very accurate beyond trivial things

[sleek egret]

'just you know' what?

the problem with cheating on pre-interview filter tests is that when you interview with the company, they will expect a certain level of skills/knowledge. especially on the live problem/coding exercises. it becomes obvious fairly quickly if someone cheated. and that's much worse, IMO.

[true harness]

you don't consider that cheating? 🤔. i mean either way if they give you an actual problem in an interview you're kinda screwed

[sleek egret]

if you get? you WILL get it

[near remnant]

I only ask ChatGPT to rate my code

[buoyant seal]

interesting application i can't believe it will be able to extract necessary metrics for that to do correctly, but who knows

[near remnant]

Anyways, maybe I will only use stackoverflow then

[buoyant seal]

technically Grammarly is able to evaluate text written styles and how good it is
So technically chatGPT should be able to grade, but i don' t believe it is possible without specialized neural network trained for this. ChatGPT is supposed to be too general and for other purposes, so it should not be able to do that
Plus code is about abstractions. And technically neural networks aren't able to comprehend abstractions (it is something pretty much beyond their level). I think may be it is impossible task for today neural networks to evaluate good written code with good abstractions
Well, it should be checked i guess

I believe SOME code quality metrics (since there are many of them) should be possible to evaluate by chatGPT and neural networks.
Question is, which ones 😆 But certainly not all of them.

[sleek egret]

I rate computer output, not the other way around

[near remnant]

So I should not use stackoverflow as well? Sorry its my first take home assignment

I wrote the whole code by myself tho. Anyways, I will continue without google

[buoyant seal]

Problem is not in using or not using external tools
You are of course allowed to use any tools u think are fit for productivity, but!

Some tools are in open access and you can be certain they are reliably will continue being in access. U can be sure they continue will be available to you in some way or another. Like Programming language compiler, GIT, IDE, GIthub/Gitlab, AWS and etc.
Those are mature products which were scaled to high amount of user workload, or work locally at your PC and will be available because they have open source version u can compile at any time on your own.
You can allow yourself relying on those tools and no longer training skills you would have learned if they were not present (like IDE will show intellisense of errors, making not necessary a lot of old school practices that are solved by modern linters/IDE tools today)

But can you be certain in availability of chatGPT? Can you allow your skills being trained in working with it, and having certain types of muscles atrophied since they aren't required with it? That is the first reason why you should not be using chatGPT.

Second reason is... Neural Networks are only giving illusion of correct answer. It is a very good illusion but still an illusion. I think better having good understanding where limits of its illusions before allowing yourself using this such types of tools. Can you be doctor, only because neural network told you that this is how to operate heart? Neural network evaluates answer in approximation, it is not using best sources. Better to find resources you are confident as 100% correct and reliable, and learn from them than from Neural network today

[near remnant]

Thanks!

[steel kindle]

Yeah it’s not like chatgpt is sentient. It’ll give you the wrong answer confidently, which I don’t think is going to help in the long wrong.

[near remnant]

I never use ChatGPT, I just thought asking it for questions, instead of checking Stackoverflow. But I will stop. Its just my first take home assignment, sorry. I might restart the whole code.

[buoyant seal]

Shrugs. Consider chatGPT as yet another user in Discord, but with 100% ability to tell any bullshit like it is absolute truth. Once you understood it, i think it can be fine to use it. As just a source of... idea generation. Ask it away, and get answers, but remember it can be always absolute bullshit that will be hard to distinguish from not being it

[near remnant]

Alright. Do I have to delete my whole take home assignment if I used ChatGPT's help for it? I will stick to stackoverflow.

[buoyant seal]

mm, it depends on type of home assignment, but i think in general you should be probably never using it for home assignment i guess. Many home assignments are given for the purpose of training you certain skills. with ChatGPT i fear u will not be able to train yourself.
Developer skill is trained by understanding better practices, by facing challenges you encounter and solve. Can you be certain you aren't robbing yourself of good experience you have learned otherwise?
usage of neural network like this is still unexplored field, i think better to wait until people discovered its applications and consequences of using it and just get info from them, when it should be best used or not in a future 😆

[near remnant]

I wrote the whole code, I only asked trivial questions. But anyways, I will rewrite the whole thing then.

[buoyant seal]

Out of curiosity, try to write article, with what you wrote, which questions you asked, how it helped you to write original assignment (with which requirements) to its last (which) stage.
Share acquired knowledge in a novel field 🙂

[near remnant]

So what do you recommend?

Should i rewrite the whole thing.

[buoyant seal]

document your process of development with the help of chatGPT, and publish article?

[near remnant]

What. Nooo. I dont know if i should rewrite the whole thing, I spent 8 hours on it on my own.

[buoyant seal]

i don't know your requirements and what you received as an end result, and what questions you asked, and what you was able to understand from it.
You can of course rewrite and it will be a good experience to compare how u do it with or without this instrument for yourself. Feel free to do or not to do it 😆

[near remnant]

Sure mate. I will do that. Rewrite, it will be a good experience.

[buoyant seal]

that will also give you more material to write article about it, if u will consider writing it

[near remnant]

With using only documentations nothing else

So, if I rewrite the whole thing, with only using the Python documentation nothing else. Am I good?

[final jackal]

chatgpt is suspiciously good

[near remnant]

I only asked ChatGPT "how to filter JSON" because I never used json before.

[zealous path]

… not really

[final jackal]

from the functional side

[zealous path]

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27189892/how-to-filter-json-array-in-python

[final jackal]

not the precise but the functional

[true harness]

what does "suspiciously" even mean here

[final jackal]

it asks you for an email and phone number mainly (possibly) to collect it and to upload to its database

[final jackal]

ofc all companies do this but if ai does it its kinda creepy

[outer rivet]

Hey, I know this might be a very personal topic for most, but can anyone here personally attest to the mass tech layoffs in recent months? Have you, or someone you know, recently been laid off by a large tech company?

[near remnant]

Yes, me

[final jackal]

can you explain it a bit more precisely i don't understand what you wanna say

[fathom shoal]

Why ?

[outer rivet]

Just gauging the status on the job market from actual people rather than articles

[sleek egret]

1. layoffs are real; 2) layofffs announcements are mostly a PR/investor relations exercise; 3) literally millions of developers quit and get (re)hired every year, layoffs are a fraction of those. 4) randomly encountering someone who was laid off is meaningless.

[fathom shoal]

Oh well there is probably more people on the IT Market, but you can still find a job.
But you can't apply for those big corporate right now, they are probably in hiring freeze / re-org.

[vast rapids]

Does anyone have experience about studying in the Netherlands?

[sleek egret]

"hiring freeze" doesn't mean they don't hire people

"hiring freeze" means no new positions. but something like 1/6 to 1/3 of people leave every year anyway. they need to be replaced. which means google will be hiring something like 20,000 people. even as they lay off 10,000 people.

[fathom shoal]

Well I mean it's very hard to get a job in one of those companies who laid off + are in hiring freeze, but not impossible indeed.

[zealous path]

People need to remember that layoffs aren’t just: “we no longer need these positions”
Sometimes it’s “we don’t need these specific people”

[sleek egret]

yes, sometimes layoffs are used to "clean house" but that doesn't happen as often as you might think because layoffs increase unemployment insurance payments for companies more than firings "for cause".

[potent stratus]

Somewhat disagree about the layoff announcements being mostly for PR - I'm at a place that had some layoffs, and everyone was called to talk to their direct manager in a one on one before the layoffs were announced company-wide. How much you care about company culture vs just taking the highest paycheck is obviously a personal choice, but I'd rather work at a company that takes that time than one that does mass layoffs via automated email at 3am. but that is just me and I imagine there are plenty of people that would take getting laid off that way for a higher paycheck

[lofty solar]

&€(£+,+ I think it doesn't mean anything I tried to translate this leetspeak so if you have a solution…

[solemn sphinx]

Command not found

Command "€(£+,+" is not found

[opal hollow]

Guys i need help with django

[fathom shoal]

That's the career channel. Try #1035199133436354600 ?

[slender yoke]

Do cover letter make a difference in applications? If it’s written that it’s optional, should I write one or do they not read it?

[fathom shoal]

Same, my company didn't laid off for performance reason, and they just sent an automated emails to laid off some US folks. Thankfully we have more right in EU, they can't kick us that easily.

[fathom shoal]

I think it's better, just to show your motivation, and why you will be a good fit.

[leaden jasper]

It doesn't hurt to write one and if they're looking at something to decide between a few candidates it could make the difference

The only thing you lose is a bit of your time if they don't read it

[glad vector]

I am 16 i want to get paid but wherever i go they ask experience what should I do

[hoary summit]

Hey everybody, I need help with rewriting my unique resume. I withdrew from my CS degree at my junior year to pursue playing poker professionally. I did this for 6 years and officially retired in September to build things to help people with a team rather than have a career that is solely self-interested.

I did retire once before and worked as a bartender (Needed some socializing + did not want to burn the money I had worked hard to accumulate) while building personal projects until the pandemic hit and had to return to the online felt. I have a number of projects I built, mostly Python based ML models and data analysis with a fair bit of React/Webdesign.

My entire work experience is (Contract Data Analyst @MSFT -> Poker -> Bartender -> Poker) How should I structure my resume to highlight the multiple projects I have done and still showcase the skills I gained from essentially being an entrepreneur in poker (Risk MGMT, Statistics, Game Theory, Database Scripting)?

[river hull]

I think not having knowledge in python / programming but rather first hand in knowing why they lay off people is that it is actually sometimes completely random, and it's based on your salary and the current budget set for the position you have.

[true harness]

apply to jobs that don't need experience, like McDonald's

[glad vector]

They are not related to developement i want to do online work like programming on php html css or js

I know these languages

[river hull]

You are actually in a good position allowing you to apply elsewhere while using your previous work experience to score a higher paying job.

[leaden jasper]

So, I think it would be beneficial to list your work experience as a professional poker player and list some of the things associated with it. The highlights should be those skills you gained because it may not occur to the recruiter that you would be that involved and in-depth with it. Obviously list the contract data analyst as well and the highlights from that. I would probably not include the bartender experience just because it doesn't really add anything meaningful.

I would have the remainder of your resume be about the tech projects though as that will show your competency with tech, which is ultimately the jobs you're going for. You really want to highlight how impactful the projects are and anything unique/complex involved in building them.

[hoary summit]

@leaden jasper Thx for the response! Should I put personal projects at the top or keep "work experience" there?

[leaden jasper]

I would keep work experience first, just because it's a bit more standard, but still visually have most of the room be taken up by the tech projects

[hoary summit]

I worry about recruiters taking it as "degenerate gambler" (Not everyone understands the complexity of poker) and just throwing it in the trash

[leaden jasper]

I would spend some time crafting how you word your poker experience. I know when I think of "professional poker player" the relevant skills you listed don't jump immediately to mind. The assumptions of a poker player that people may hold might work against you, but if you list something like database scripting and the specifics of statistics and game theory that will catch them off guard and make you an interesting candidate

An interesting candidate with a solid portfolio is ultimately an eye-catching candidate that could get you an interview. Then just rock the interview

Because if I see "Professional Poker Player" and then bullet points and more information, I am for sure reading the rest because now I'm curious.

[hoary summit]

That's really good to hear and calms the nerves a bit. Do you mind if I DM you the resume once completed and we could talk more specifics?

[leaden jasper]

Of course, you're also welcome to post an anonymized and redacted version here. There are some other folks that regularly check in on this channel that usually have great and relevant feedback

[hoary summit]

Fantastic!

[inner wren]

Hey @hoary summit!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.docx). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[hoary summit]

How does this look?

[gritty rivet]

I would reword those bullet points to be more concise and emphasize the accomplishment. For example, instead of starting the first one with "Expertise in playing...." maybe just say "Achieved top results through the application of...". A lot of the other points could be improved the same way

Overall I like the format, content, etc.

[hoary summit]

I'm on it! 😎

[somber osprey]

can someone look at my resume and essay for a company?

[solid sedge]

hey guys quick question, can a python certificate from Code academy land me in a job?

[near ocean]

No

[solid sedge]

thank you

[dreamy shadow]

anonymize and post here, someone will take a look

[somber osprey]

how do I redact the info, any good websites?

[dreamy shadow]

Just do it manually. Basically just change names to ABC or company1 etc

[solid sedge]

Is getting in a job/career for coding harder?

[dreamy shadow]

Depends on what your comparing to?

[solid sedge]

Entry level?

[somber osprey]

resume

[solid sedge]

doesn't need to be an high level job like meta or google

[lapis wind]

I think they mean comparing it against another job occupation

[true harness]

harder implies a comparison

[dreamy shadow]

Lmao, you can include the degree. (BSc of CS, MS of CS)

Generally, basically what dowcat said here <#career-advice message>

More of what your projects did, etc

[dreamy shadow]

For example, what was the point of training the multi agent reinforcement learning agent.

[somber osprey]

I do not have a degree, I am close to getting a AA. currently in HS

[dreamy shadow]

Are you looking to go into a developer/cs career? If so, maybe consider a BS instead.

[gritty rivet]

Do you have any resulting projects that you could use as a portfolio? You might need to work on them more, but my point is that a portfolio counts for more than the certificate does

[solid sedge]

no as of right now. But im assuming that would be a good start?

[gritty rivet]

Yes, if a degree is not an option then I would focus on building out the best portfolio you can. Look at the job market and have certain kinds of roles in mind first so you can build a portfolio that demonstrates the skills relevant to the entry-level roles you intend to apply for

[solid sedge]

got it

[somber osprey]

I am looking for a BS. I am a current high schooler taking courses at a community college. By next year I will have enough credits for an AA degree and transfer to an university, graduating in 2 years.

[hoary summit]

Why are almost all data science internships requiring masters/phd? Is it purely deep theoretical knowledge of the math behind ML algos?

[delicate lodge]

how to make urls like http://123456789

[near ocean]

Not a career question, or a python one, ask in #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

[delicate bane]

its the grad school filter since those positions are highly competitive

also this was interesting since i was expecting the opposite

[sleek egret]

is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[gritty rivet]

Job openings? For people who are looking for jobs, they are good.

[delicate bane]

for people worried about increase in interest rates? not so much

[coarse torrent]

We are about to witness one of the greatest economic downturns in history. We are long overdue for one and this may very well lead to the Great Depression II

[rigid glade]

hey everyone!

i'm a high school senior and I have a couple of questions as an aspiring software developer

I also want to veer off the traditional path of life - i want a 9-5 but also multiple streams of income

has anyone written on Medium before? I've heard that it's a good way to start blogging, and I wrote a few articles to try - wondering if this is a viable way to generate more income?

in case you want to check it out and provide feedback https://medium.com/@aviral.mehrotra

[pine sleet]

Probably not enough to be sustainable
It's great as a means of sharing information but as a means of income...

[rigid glade]

i've heard freelancing works, but I don't think that is viable either

[pine sleet]

If you do end up making a side income from Medium, all the better!

[rigid glade]

my issue with freelancing is having to wait for clients to click on your posting

[sleek egret]

that sort of thing is more a promotional tool to build your personal brand. often used to generate leads for consulting gigs.

[rigid glade]

ohhh @sleek egret I see, that makes sense!

[sleek egret]

um, no offense, but if that's how you acquire clients, well...

[dreamy shadow]

Nice. On a good path.

[rigid glade]

how should I do it? I'm only in high school rn haha

[sleek egret]

consulting clients do not retain you for your skills, per se. your skills are sort of assumed for you to even be in contention. clients select consultants based on their perceived trustworthiness.

this is why most consulting gigs are acquired through personal relationships (i.e. your "network"). recommendations are critical.

[rigid glade]

ohhh i understand

i'll look into that - for now, what i've done to try and earn more money is post articles on Medium and resell sneakers

looking for more ways that I can start using my programming knowledge to make money, i've done some internships too

[sleek egret]

to use sales terminology, consulting is not driven by "outside sales", it's driven by "inside sales" based on qualified leads from your network

[tawny pagoda]

Anyone got any job tips if seeing a job offer is real? Got a message from a company called "brightwater engineering ltd" i aplied for it obvioisly but never expected a reply but i wanna make sure im not getting scammed here. Its for a "remote data entry clerk" i live in californoa

They're asking me to do wnload an app called the "signal app"

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.thoughtcrime.securesms here it is on the playstore

[pine sleet]

Signal is a fine app

[tawny pagoda]

I wanna do some research on the company and verify if its a real business, how do i do that?

[white relic]

Signal is an excellent app and reputable company. But it can be used for hiding illicit activity and getting asked to install it for a job is sketchy.

[tawny pagoda]

Yeh thats what i needed to hear

Heres the text i was sent

Hello! I'm Nelson Mays from Brightwater Engineering Ltd, currently reaching out to you in regards to your resume approved for the Remote Data Entry Clerk/Administrative Assistant position with a pay rate of $35.00/hr. Kindly download and setup Signal App to your mobile device on https://signal.org/install/. Then add the HR manager Mr. Sunnie Mathes using this Number [phone] and send a message to commence the online interview/briefing and comprehensive job details ASAP, Thank you!

[true harness]

remote data entry sounds like a not fun job

[tawny pagoda]

I need one cuz im unemployed

[sleek egret]

data entry does not pay $35/hr

[true harness]

wait, 35 . that's a scam lmao

[tawny pagoda]

Yeh thats what i thought

Any remote data entry jobs you guys can reccomend? I really need two jobs to pay my bills

[sleek egret]

especially not in alabama (334 area code is SE alabama)

[tawny pagoda]

Im learning python on udemy rn

[sleek egret]

might be funny to string them along and see if you can reverse scam them though

[tawny pagoda]

Not worth my time honestly, i need a basic remote job that pays minimum wage becuz i live in a remote area of california and theres no jobs here

[true harness]

no mcdonald's? chipotle?

[tawny pagoda]

All packed, theres no jobs becuz theres no openings.

Hence i put "need" not want, im unemployed for a reason and its not my fault

Id work at walmart but theres no openings there...

[sleek egret]

how odd. quite a lot of restaurants and services companies are short staffed around here. most are offering around $15/hr now

some quite a bit more

I wonder why rural california is suffering so much more

[tawny pagoda]

Its the opposite here, everywhere i go, people are saying they're overstaffed and everyone is having to work 6 hours a week.

[sleek egret]

I bet the population is declining rapidly in your region

[tawny pagoda]

Not really, people are moving here becuz the rent is 1200$ a month on average. The average rent in sacramento for a studio apartment is double that.

[sleek egret]

you said "remote area". Sacramento is hardly "remote"

[tawny pagoda]

Its north of sac

[sleek egret]

oh wait, sorry, I misread what you wrote. never mind.

[tawny pagoda]

Rn i just need a remote data entry job and idk where to look for one since indeed, linkedIN, and glassdor doesnt have any reliable entry level jobs.

Any reccomended sites for remote data entry?

[sleek egret]

I suggest you broaden the job title in your job search. I suspect that a large % of data entry jobs have been offshored to places like india and phillipines where people will accept $1 to $2 per hour doing it.

think about jobs that require direct customer interaction where your familiarity with the local culture is a plus.

here, "local" == america

[tawny pagoda]

Gotcha, idk how to really land a help desk job tbh, i wanna do remote IT isnce ive studied for it. But idk how to land the basic "help desk" job

I just need someone here to be a reference to get me out of this unemployment. So i can actually have money to work towars my career in software development.

[gusty prairie]

why did the server get un partnerd

[analog sun]

Retention metrics. Not enough people stayed active after joining (probably because they joined for a specific question and had it answered)

[gusty prairie]

who's the owner

[analog sun]

This is probably better for #community-meta , but we recently had an announcement about it: #changelog message

[near remnant]

i got a take home assingment: 4 tasks + one, 4 pages long Python quiz....wtf, would you guys do this? it feels so long

[true harness]

what's the time frame they gave you to finish? a week? 2?

[near remnant]

no timeframe, I probably think because it takes long to finish it properly

[zealous path]

@tawny pagoda 🇬🇧 so my experience will be different but I did Data Admin (basically data entry) for 8 months at minimum wage and then got a Data Analyst job at a large firm for 2x. Definitely just need your foot in the door in “data” for a bit and hopefully the fact that you’ve had experience in the industry will help you.

[tawny pagoda]

I dont have any experience becuz I can't get my foot in the door, could you PLEASE give me a referral so I can get my foot in?

I'm very desperate at this point of my life.

[near remnant]

explain more your story mate @tawny pagoda how old are you, whats ur degree, etc

[zealous path]

I would but I don’t know any companies that would hire outside the EU

Do you look solely for “data entry” or “data” or …?

[tawny pagoda]

I am currently someone who just has a highschool diploma, I'm 25 years old, my car goit totalled last year and I got laid off from my job at ulta, I used to work in mailing industry but the lack of hours started causing me to pay more to actually drive there then I was getting paid for. I used to work 2 jobs 7 days a week just to pay the bills but those jobs started cutting my hours from a solid 60 (40 one 1 job and 20 on the other for weekends) to a measily 20 (15-20 on the 1 job, and 6 hours on the weekend job)

I've tried to utilize government agencies to get certs involving the A+ (I passed the 1001 last year) but they failed to pay the 2nd cert to give me the full A+ certification

[spark cobalt]

A referral doesn't guarantee an interview much less a job. You're better off just building up your CV and your skillset.

[true harness]

i've never heard of A+

[tawny pagoda]

CompTIA A+

[near remnant]

damn mate, I'm also 25 tho.

[tawny pagoda]

I am building my skillset using the UDEMY "python bootcamp" by mouhammad hamsho, I am hoping this gives me enough qualification to give me something.

[spark cobalt]

So exactly how does your resume show to an employer that you're someone worth hiring over someone with an IT/CS degree?

[tawny pagoda]

it sadly, doesn't I couldn't afford college. in my life.

[spark cobalt]

You should send your resume. (Anonymize it) so we better know what we're dealing with.

[true harness]

the certifications don't really mean anything for software roles

[spark cobalt]

Especially Udemy ones.

[near remnant]

honestly, I was working as a python backend dev, i have two degrees and been programming 1,5+ years now and still feel like sh*t.
is this common?

[tawny pagoda]

I've kept the partially completed skills out of it and looked for basic entry level positions like data entry, and stuff. I really want to just get a basic job out here so I can afford these high level certifications.

[white relic]

A+ means something. It just doesn't mean anything in software roles.

[sleek egret]

if you "feel like shit", you probably need more physical exercise.

[spark cobalt]

You've asked this question 30 times changing the YOE you have. What kind of answer are you expecting? Are you just asking this to make Pinecone feel like shit because you guys are the same age and you're "ahead"?

[near remnant]

no mate

[tawny pagoda]

I've learned to ignore those who have 2 degrees by my age, they usually lucked out in the social economic ladder in life.

I'm sure he had a good mentor that helped him out when he was young and was able to get a good scholarship to help afford the tuition costs of such degrees, I never got those opportunities.

[zealous path]

Damn, not people roasting each other in here now

[sleek egret]

some people just worked their ass off

[spark cobalt]

He's asked this so many times, not sure what he's expecting :/

[tawny pagoda]

what would be a good bootcamp?

[near remnant]

nothing

[spark cobalt]

Pinecone, please send your resume. This isn't going anywhere.

[sleek egret]

and yes, some folks had life on easy mode. thing is, you can't tell who was in which camp by their degrees

[near remnant]

indeed. my degrees are not in CS, unfortunately.

[inner wren]

Hey @tawny pagoda!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[true harness]

that clearly did not matter that much, though. you got a job before

[tawny pagoda]

its not allowing me to do so.

[true harness]

screenshot it

[near remnant]

you mean job as a dev? or job in general?

[tawny pagoda]

Jobs in general

[tawny pagoda]

you said udemy certs for python are somewhat meaningless, but are the skills I am learning here valuable at all?

[zealous path]

Yoooooo, homie forklift verified 😎

[gritty rivet]

Keep it to one page. The stuff you currently have before the Experience section can mostly be cut. No need for an objective, the qualification summary should be much briefer if included at at all. Do you have any projects? If not, build some. That should be a major section.

[true harness]

as a dev

[spark cobalt]

Yes, but the issue is anyone can make their own Udemy course, name it something great, then "attend" it. The issue is really just you need to show your Python skills through something as closely replicable to what you would build in the real world. So if you want to be a web developer, you'd best to have multiple websites built on your resume.

[true harness]

what sort of jobs is this for? i think we're mostly familiar with software dev resumes here

[tawny pagoda]

I do but they are not on github, I've studied blockchain technlogies and cryptography for working on the ethereum network. and I've gotten some projects on my PC that involve a smartcontract lottery and currently one project involving work with "aave" which is a defi simple crypto "flash loan" contract thats currently unfinished

[grim summit]

if you are looking for utterly quick money you should learn javascript and react/react-native and build a portfolio(2-3 well designed apps)

[gritty rivet]

Statements like "strong ability to multitask" without evidence don't provide any value. Instead, show what abilities you have in describing your work-related experience.

[zealous path]

Being serious my cv is:
Relevant skills (python, sql, machine learning, artificial neural networks, ….)
Relevant work experience (data admin)
Projects (Artificial neural network, sudoku solver, Light Fidelity system)
Education (University and Sixth Form)
Hobbies

So this is what you’re kind of wanting to go for. If you don’t have the education to back you up then you need the projects.

[grim summit]

that will kickstart your frontend career

[tawny pagoda]

I am currently unsure of these projects i am working on becuz I do not know how valuable they are to employers so I am studying this code camp on udemy https://www.udemy.com/course/python-the-ultimate-course-2023-everything-youll-ever-need/ that has some noteworthy subjects I've read across the web to strengthen knowledge on python, and taking another bootcamp on javascript to better learn how to write tests to strength my coding concepts with solidity to help build solid, eye-catching projects with future employers for both front end and back end dev jobs.

[gritty rivet]

Putting code on GitHub is ideal but the important part up front is that you can highlight what you learned and accomplished on your resume and can talk about it in an interview

[grim summit]

also i dont think you have to flex typing 80 WPM maybe if it was 200 but regardless its unnecessary

you need to be straight forward with ur experience and work ethic without any bullshit if im a employer and see that i would just laugh

[tawny pagoda]

I was told to put it on there since according what i've been told, its a noteworthy statistic.

[gritty rivet]

The fact that you're working on passion projects related to crypto and defi will be exciting to some employers, especially if they are working in that area. Play those projects up to the max!

[grim summit]

^^

[true harness]

80 is significantly above average, fwiw. probably due to older individuals

[spark cobalt]

Isn't crypto heavy math related. If he doesn't have any sort of math background they wouldn't hire him.

[zealous path]

A project doesn’t need to be big or noteworthy to others. It needs to be important to you because employers will see that passion and love it.

[grim summit]

you'd be surprised my man! these crypto bros throw money at everything

[true harness]

cryptography or cryptocurrency lol

[spark cobalt]

I see

[tawny pagoda]

well, as I said, I am unsure of the value of the projects I'm working on, I want to learn more on javascript and python so I can create more efficient and secure smartcontracts and utilize well tested techniques on both languages inside the solidity code. if anyone can give me resources on proper self-education on these or verifyn the bootcamp I am utilizing is a sufficient source of information I'd appreciate that.

[grim summit]

the best thing i can tell you is to just follow ur passion and maximize the input of it

[true harness]

you have to use rust though 🦀

[tawny pagoda]

what level of math would be good to learn?

[tawny pagoda]

I heard using hardhat on the crypto devs is a good tool to use but I'll learn rust.

[grim summit]

but if you are really looking for fast and not so bad money i suggest learning JS and React as i said

[tawny pagoda]

so like calculus+ or the mega advanced linear algebra?

[true harness]

ah, that one was a joke, sorry. the best way to pick things to learn is to see what job ads list as requirements

[grim summit]

mega advanced linear algebra 🙁

[tawny pagoda]

wat is VC?

[gritty rivet]

Venture Capital

[sleek egret]

be aware that the crypto industry is in a severe downturn right now because of the collapse of outfits like Celsius and FTX

[tawny pagoda]

I don't really understand what being good at rreading docs and learning from research papers, do you mean summarizing the information and being able to utilize the knowledge of those papers to your advantage in making smart contracts? personally I've seen the docs as relatively easy to read and digest.

[spark cobalt]

I feel like this is just way too big of a risk for Pinecone.

[sleek egret]

I must agree with Wilder

[tawny pagoda]

yes they do, the book I got reccently is alraedy outdated, and its not evne a year old.

[grim summit]

yea which is why i recommended to just become a frontend engineer

[sleek egret]

um, I started programming in the late 1980's. programming today is very similar to what it was like then. the fundamentals of the art and craft of software development changes very very slowly. what changes rapidly are the fashions.

[tawny pagoda]

its why I am trying to minimize the risk by getting an entry level job, studying deeply into the popular languages like python and javascript, then moving towards solidity and utilizing the techniques from both languages into blockchain dev

[grim summit]

if you are in a sketchy state you should focus on something that is stable before u can explore (or do it on the side)

[grim summit]

🖐️

if you would like i would gladly walk you through javascript, react and python(free of charge)

[tawny pagoda]

as above, there isn't much entry level opportunities, and I am unemployed, as of right now I am looking for self-taught strategies, that are easily available, so I come here to ask for verification of subjects I am learning and whehter is worth investingg time into. and I am glad to hear some of my projects I've made are not worthless.

[grim summit]

these are the easiest thing you can possibly ever do(react apps not your work) yet the market for it is thriving

and really just require a good portfolio instead of a degree(while its a good bonus to have that paper)

[tawny pagoda]

whats not easy is verifying the value of my information, the apps I'm using work, but I am unsure if its actually going to relate to a real world job, so I can show you my projects and you can show me tried and true VALUABLE resources so I can study and move forward with more advanced projects.

[grim summit]

sure go ahead drop us your github or links

[tawny pagoda]

as of rn it oinly has the most basic one. but I can drop some code of my solidity contracts.

[grim summit]

if you can build them into a app and showcase them through ur own site or github that would be a good first step

[tawny pagoda]

alright. Ill do that first. then link.

[grim summit]

ping me when you do it

[true harness]

and if you're going to be applying for software dev jobs, you'll need to massively rework your resume. you should pick a popular template

[tawny pagoda]

ty, I'm just looking for entry level jobs with this resume unfortunately, no software dev jobs until I can be sure that the skills I have are real and can actually be used on the job, btw can you check this bootcamp for me and see if it has any valuable python skills I can learn? https://www.udemy.com/course/python-the-ultimate-course-2023-everything-youll-ever-need/ I am studying this one right now and it has popular eye catching subjects like machine-learning and such. I wanna know if its a bootcamp worth putting efort into.

it also has subjects involving artificial neural networks which I haven't gotten to just yet, but I just want someone to see if this particular bootcamp truly does have everything I need.

[true harness]

seems to mostly be about ML, which doesn't seem to be what you want

[tawny pagoda]

well, its valuable nonetheless, I have some other resources for solidity and blockchain development. I just want to see if this information really has what I need.

[true harness]

it looks fine? if a bit strange, introducing finite state machines before looping

[grim summit]

if you know python u should take the google data science certificate program(valuable for a data scientist)

[tawny pagoda]

well, how much is that going to csot me?

[grim summit]

whats wrong @white relic

ive had friends land entry lvl jobs off that certificate(they are still in university)

[white relic]

seems like very specific advice

[grim summit]

it feels like he is trying to make python work with some math skills

[true harness]

i can't imagine a certificate for data science holding any weight compared to a masters in data science 🤔

[sleek egret]

um, no offense but Pineconeaddict is not going to be hired as a "data scientist" job as his first job no matter what online courses he takes

[grim summit]

hmm i guess maybe im just giving solutions

[sleek egret]

the chances of that are so vanishingly small, I think such a course would be a waste of time and money. maybe after a few years of experience he'd have a shot.

[grim summit]

i think the best thing is JS and react honestly you can never go wrong with that and there is plenty resources out there including documentation to help you

[white relic]

data science isn't something you can just pick up and get hired at. If you're trying to leverage Python skill to get hired, there are easier things to go for

[tawny pagoda]

So I basically need a masters degree for any of the careers I'm going for?

[true harness]

what careers are you going for

[grim summit]

good question. What do you want to achieve ?

[tawny pagoda]

well, I'd like to go for blockchain development, but if going into any form of blockchain development requires a degree idk...

[sleek egret]

not at all. a significant fraction (but minority) of software developers don't have a university degree. it's very possible to do.

[tawny pagoda]

I heard its atm, easier to get into without a college degree and once im in there I can use the money to pay for one. if possible.

[true harness]

i believe the latest stack overflow survey says 10%. it doesn't breakdown by "domain", though

[sleek egret]

that said, a degree is quite helpful, especially during your first few years. without a degree, you need to use projects to "prove" to employers that you can do the job.

as you gain experience, the degree becomes less and less important.

[near remnant]

"there are easier things to go for"
such as?

[tawny pagoda]

right, so thats why i asked public static void if the education i am learning on udemy is valuable for creating good projects.

[true harness]

pretty much all the other things, tbh. data science has a much higher educational requirement

[tawny pagoda]

a job at walmart, the very basic thing I am currently looking for.

[sleek egret]

front-end work, system administration/devops have much less academic requirements

[near remnant]

you need 10 years of experience, PhD and 2 degrees and 8 projects in 9 technologies to get invited to a junior data science job

[tawny pagoda]

what would be solid project ideas you guys would look forward into seeing a candidate with no degree to have under his belt?

[sleek egret]

many front-end developers got into the field from the graphics design side