career-advice

[summer roost]

they were fired in the first wave

[spark cobalt]

Makes sense

[mortal wedge]

I don't think they have a legal team anymore, either

[sleek egret]

really? that seems... less than prudent

[summer roost]

Washington Post has mentioned this in every article they've run about Elon since he took over Twitter: "Twitter, which no longer has a PR team, did not respond to our requests for comment." or things like that.

[mortal wedge]

Haha

[dreamy shadow]

That's hilarious.

[delicate bane]

most large companies have one, right?

[sleek egret]

yes

[mortal wedge]

Yes, to protect/defend them from legal trouble

[silk raft]

He has taken the reigns for Legal, PR, and Engineering. Sounds like great delegation from management.

[brave bridge]

isnt he banned on twitter?

[delicate bane]

its never too late to switch careers... https://www.wvnews.com/a-72-year-old-congressman-goes-back-to-school-pursuing-a-degree-in-ai/article_47920f8a-8739-11ed-8264-d7d60de7a80e.html

anyway, the actual degree is Masters in CS, concentration in ML but i guess "AI" grabs more eyes

[mortal wedge]

damn nice

Yeah I wish people wouldn't conflate AI and ML, but whatever

[summer roost]

ML is a type of AI, so the headline isn't wrong on that score

[spark cobalt]

AI is gonna shape a lot of the future. Nice to have politicians working to educate themselves on this.

[mortal wedge]

Sure, but that's like saying I pursued a degree in human anatomy when I'm pursuing a degree of biology with a focus on brains.

[summer roost]

yes, exactly

[mortal wedge]

I guess it's close enough if nuance isn't needed

[delicate bane]

and then theres degrees in human biology (which is actually a thing at some programs) but idk how the analogy translates for CS

are you trolling or

[spark cobalt]

What does regular mean?

[queen rain]

Hello! Can someone help me? I need to pass a Phyton script to file .exe

[spark cobalt]

This channel is for careers. Perhaps try #python-discussion

[delicate bane]

anyway, the tech comedians socially inept did a bit about this

[spark cobalt]

If I was paid as much as a McDonalds employee

That's like, more extreme than Marxism

[glass scroll]

what math you need to work on ai

[sleek egret]

Things like linear algebra, statistics, multi-variate calculus, tensors, analysis, etc

[cunning condor]

Thank you

[vapid jay]

Tesla stock value was built purely on hype. If I remember correctly that Tesla had a higher market value while selling far fewer cars than GM and Ford

[vapid jay]

Jai Shree Ram

Shree ram jaanki bethe hai mere seene mei

[last chasm]

Hi there, i dont know if i'm on the right place to ask my question (and english is not my mother tongue sorry for mistake)
I'm not in a good mood in my actual job (draftman) and i wish to change. and why not computer science and python.
Nowadays, its christmas hollydays for me and for fun : i made a small programm to catch & downloads image from "Magic The Gathering" card game . the programm works and it was super fun to do this.
My question is :
is it representative of the developer's job ? (or of another job which I don't know the name)

regards

[gilded valley]

Without a little more info, it's difficult to be too specific.

Assuming you got them from an API like Scryfall's, then yes, consuming APIs is a small part of what developers might do - but so do data engineers and a lot of other roles

If you were web scraping, then that's more like what a data engineer might do.

[last chasm]

i can share my code if necessary

what I like is the feeling of being stronger and smarter than the machine. Cutting everything into "simpler" tasks (example: how do you list all the cards that exist?) and then putting all these little parts together to have something that does everything right the first time (list the cards, retrieve the cards, check the text on the card etc...) and jumping for joy because it works!

[near ocean]

I wouldnt say the job has a "jumping for joy" aspect

[sand chasm]

i m learning python from youtube is it good ?

[spark cobalt]

I personally prefer books.

[last chasm]

for sure but all the job are sometimes boring

[polar nebula]

are leetcode questions good for preparing for ml interviews?????

[hollow timber]

Hi everyone

just wanted to ask what's the best thing you can do with python that can land you a job

and what do you have to learn for it

[gilded valley]

There's really nothing you can do with just python to get yourself a job. You need to do a degree, or do something very exceptional like make a very popular app - university is really the only consistent path

At least, this is the case in the US and much of the EU

[brittle thorn]

Same

[vapid jay]

I got a degree in IT (more leaned to programming, but not as desirable as a BS or BE in CS) and an MBA. What kind of stuff can I do so that I can do a career change? PS: Currently working as a data entry clerk, lost job during COVID.

[hollow timber]

let me rephrase my question

what can u learn in python to be able to create something meaningful or useful

[white relic]

Devops. System administration and stuff. The road from IT to development can be pretty short and you don't need another degree.

[vapid jay]

I have no exp in IT apart from my degree unfortunately. Worked as a Digital marketer for a year and in Banking for 6 months (2 years gap in-between them for the Masters)

I was thinking of building up a portfolio of projects and applying for entry-level positions or internships. Is this path viable?

[white relic]

The most effective way to build up experience in programming is to do so while working in an IT department where you can take on projects that involve some coding

It'll be much harder for you to build a portfolio if you are also working in an unrelated field, not impossible, but given your existing degree it just makes sense to leverage that

[vapid jay]

So, its better for me to apply for entry-level pos and work towards my goals from there?

[white relic]

it is pretty much always better, for someone with a degree, to get a job using that degree and pivot into programming via devops/infosec/informatics, rather than try to build a portfolio from scratch and get a programming job with no relevant experience.

Think of it this way: you'll be spending the next 2-3 years building your project portfolio that will get you your dream job. You might as well be getting paid for it

and IT is like... halfway there already, the IT department is often responsible for software development. My first job was writing Perl for my university IT dept

[steep stratus]

e

[near remnant]

What will u guys do tomorrow on New Year's Eve?

[vapid jay]

Thanks for the answer, The challenge for me is to find an entry level gig that would take me 4 years out of school. Let's see how it goes.

[vapid jay]

I'm making Biryani

[near remnant]

I used to go out and get drunk as hell. After age 23, I've been spending it with my gf.

[spark cobalt]

With my family 🙂 Unfortunately not old enough to drink

[spark cobalt]

Is there any sector that you're interested in particular? I can probably offer some advice since I'm working in full stack right now.

[near remnant]

I spent 4-5 new Year's eve in a row at parties and drinking but it gets boring pretty quickly. I would rather spend it with my family or gf.

[vapid jay]

Don't have places to go out unfortunately. Been stuck at home since 2020. I'll probably move out in March and my home is in a rural area with no places for fun.

[spark cobalt]

Doing a little bit of DevOps right now too.. But still lots to learn for that

[spark cobalt]

Are you in the US?

[near remnant]

Im EU

[vapid jay]

India

[spark cobalt]

Oh.

[vapid jay]

I was thinking of working towards a supply chain adjacent position because that was my focus in my masters. But, even entry level is hard to get without contacts or unless you graduate from top places.

I'll probably have to migrate to Dubai or something to find such jobs

[near remnant]

I have my master's in Supply Chain Management actually lmao

[vapid jay]

Cool, how's the scene there? Many jobs?

[near remnant]

Dont know because I hated it so I learned programming. Now I work as a Python Backend Developer

[vapid jay]

I had trouble even finding internships around here lol.

[near remnant]

There are a lot of logistics / supply chain jobs

[vapid jay]

I'll be moving out to a city soon (Hallmark movie style 😄). So I may have better luck getting something I like.

[white relic]

the job market in India seems pretty alien to most of us outside, so take that into account when evaluating advice from random Internet people

[vapid jay]

Yeah, its mostly underpaid and outsourcing focused in IT. It's difficult to find tech jobs unless you have graduated from top colleges (IITs or some such) or you've got an engineering degree and grinded some years as an employee of the outsourcing cos.

I have better chances of working as a asst. professor right now than getting into a reasonably paid tech job. I don't want to get into academia.

[glacial pebble]

Hi guys,

My name is William. I living in Sao Paulo, Brazil. I'm backend developer and code in Javascript, Python and Bash script. I'm interested in finding a job opportunity abroad. Someone help me with tips?

[sleek egret]

hola william

[sleek egret]

That sounds exactly like the USA!

except for the outsourcing co's part

[sleek egret]

what is "cp"?

[verbal mist]

I mostly use cp for Computer Programming

[sleek egret]

ah

[verbal mist]

Could mean smth else too

[sleek egret]

let's go with your definition

[leaden jasper]

In most contexts on this server, it means Competitive Programming

[sleek egret]

what is "competitive programming" in the context of a job interview?

[gilded valley]

two candidates are given one keyboard and a knife each, whoever opens the PR first gets the job

[sleek egret]

I can only give you my perspective. It seems a bit gaudy to me. But then I'm a conservative old fart, so my opinion on this may be worse than worthless.

[sleek egret]

I'd watch that

[glass scroll]

I love magic haha

[last chasm]

I just set myself a little personal challenge
now that I loved it, I wonder if I shouldn't change my job.

[sleek egret]

I see

[sleek egret]

if you want a career dealing with MtG, who are we to judge?

[brave bridge]

unless the linkedins background has that purple too

i would just use plain white and i would also not rotate the logos of py,js,java,css,html

[verbal mist]

should I change colour of the texts too? from purple to black/grey

[brave bridge]

whats the reason you used C++ as a bigger logo

[verbal mist]

idk tbh

[brave bridge]

and incorporated into your text. is that your main language u good in? because for me it implies it is.

[verbal mist]

Kinda yes, because I've started to learn basics of programming and computation using C as my first language.

[brave bridge]

but C != C++

[verbal mist]

Nowadays I find myself using python mostly to do things

[verbal mist]

I've started c++ last year

[brave bridge]

idk maybe if you want focus on c++ do the color of text in the same color of one the c++ logo (the dark or light blueish)

[verbal mist]

Okay, Thank you so much for helping me out!

[brave bridge]

https://tenor.com/view/scaler-create-impact-dog-coding-programming-gif-25011983

[brave bridge]

was just an idea. im not a designer in any regard 👍

[last chasm]

not specially with MtG 🤣

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, Tesla was already a bubble that was set to burst. Elon's recent actions just exacerbated it

[vapid jay]

Frankly, I don't trust any of the computerized cars. Like it has. It's uses and function, but it just exacerbates some of the worst elements of modern design. I don't want DLC on my car

[mortal wedge]

Agreed. Especially since they seem to be trying really hard to hire principal engineers to develop AI for the self driving cars

Maybe they're just replacing a role that became open, but still it undermines confidence in the tech from my standpoint

[vapid jay]

I mean it's honestly a fairly morally dubious position just because of how much you're putting people at risk

No one wants to be the person who thinks they're responsible for getting a bunch of people killed on the roads

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, agreed. I work in the medical device industry, and there are no closed feedback loops in anything I've worked with. A human being is involved at some point in every process.

[vapid jay]

Honestly, do you think medical device security could be a career path?

[sleek egret]

they don't care

[mortal wedge]

Depends on what you mean. I think it would be extremely niche, but there's definitely some demand, for example, of making a codebase hipaa compliant to protect patient information.

I think it would be a cyber security role with bonus points for being familiar with medical systems

[sleek egret]

that seems very niche

[mortal wedge]

Yeah. It seems to lend itself more towards being a contract role, honestly. But I think that's similar for a lot of cyber security roles. Most companies want that to be a one and done process

[vapid jay]

That could be one but also I was thinking of trying to make sure that like outside devices would not be able to communicate with medical devices

[mortal wedge]

Ah, gotcha

[vapid jay]

Making it so I can't like hack a pacemaker or some other regulatory device

[mortal wedge]

I'm not sure to be honest. Although I can see how that would be desirable for larger companies. I typically work for startups, though

[vapid jay]

Seems like something were you have to advertise it as a protection for liabilities or whatever

[sleek egret]

is anyone really liable if a pacemaker gets hacked?

certainly not the patient or doctor that chooses it

perhaps the manufacturer if gross negligence could be proven. but how do you even prove that?

[last chasm]

@sleek egret i hesitate to change my job thats why

[mortal wedge]

I don't know about liability in that situation, but it would be extremely bad PR for the company.

[vapid jay]

It would depend about their knowledge. If they didn't know it was possible they probably wouldn't be liable but if there was some internal documentation which revealed knowledge of said bug or exploit then they probably would be

[mortal wedge]

Also may help in getting approved by the FDA. Although a lot of medical devices are just FDA cleared these days.

[sleek egret]

sounds like the best course of action then is to just ignore it

[mortal wedge]

Well, if I warn you about X, you ignore it, then X happens, that may be enough for a negligence claim

[sleek egret]

so don't hire anyone that will warn you about X. problem solved 🙂

[mortal wedge]

Lol

[near ocean]

Being incompetent doesnt absolve you of responsibility
Maybe it should be someone's job to be aware of such bugs/exploits

[mortal wedge]

My mother was in an interesting situation. IT was her job to warn companies of environmental issues related to their engineering projects and make sure they were in compliance with local laws. But it was not an uncommon experience for her in interviews for them to subtly or not so subtly ask if she will just ignore all their deficiencies and just rubber stamp all their initiatives anyway.

[sleek egret]

heh, that's hardly a surprise

IMO, it's sort of silly to expect companies to work hard to create more risks and liabilities

[mortal wedge]

Well, I don't know about pacemaker hacking, but if you have patient information and you're a medical company, you do have to follow laws/regulations to protect that data. Other companies you may do business with will likely refuse if you cannot prove you're in compliance with those laws/regulations

[brave bridge]

hack your own pacemaker for better performance 💀 ?

[sleek egret]

it's your pacemaker, you should be free to modify it!

[mortal wedge]

Protecting patient data is a significant concern in med tech

[brave bridge]

overclocking it right now!

[sleek egret]

sure, and that's as it should be. I'm not condoning the violation of any regulation

[mortal wedge]

My boss had to work a ton of overtime to make sure our codebase was hipaa compliant. I'm sure he would have loved to hire a contractor to do that for him.

[sleek egret]

data security regs in the financial industry are super vague

[mortal wedge]

Which is weird, because I would assume fintech would be similar to medtech in that regard

I don't give a damn who knows about my medical information, but I don't want anyone messing with my money

[vapid jay]

I looked it up. You're all right. The standard is reasonably foreseeable. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/foreseeability#

[sleek egret]

All the teeth is in things like AML/KYC, risk management, representation & disclosure, etc.

[near ocean]

I had to sit through 2 days of iso27001 audits at work, it was hell
The guy was barely checking anything, they had done this audit before and knew each other, it was like 3h of audit and 5h of chit chat followed by then taking the auditor out for dinner lmao

[mortal wedge]

hahaha

[sleek egret]

yes, but who decides what reasonably foreseeable 10 or 20 years in the future

[mortal wedge]

Well, sounds like your employee was providing significant value to the company that day

[vapid jay]

I mean the courts

[sleek egret]

back in the 1990's, when we were pitching a telco to be a client, they sent a security auditor to our shop. he told us to insert some CD and run the software. I asked, "is this a test? because I'm not gonna let you run unknown software on our production systems." the auditor laughed and told us that NO ONE had ever objected before!

so <facepalm>, man

[near ocean]

I should have been an auditor goddamn
I'd either be blacklisted everywhere or super rich

[sleek egret]

security audits are such a bs job 90% of the time, IMO

[mortal wedge]

There's a well known issue with the FDA in med tech though. There are essentially two main pathways in dealing with the FDA. There's FDA approval, I have to go through really strict processes and regulations to get approved. Like, crazy strict. Then there's the clearance pathway. I just have to point to some other device that has been approved/cleared and make the argument that I'm close enough to that device, so just let me in as well. The problem with that is that these things chain and you can have a product that is REALLY far removed from the original one that got approved, even if it's really not safe/reliable, then if people point to THAT device to get cleared you suddenly have a bunch of really unsafe devices on the market.

[sleek egret]

That's good info to know!

[mortal wedge]

But both processes are still complicated enough that even startups will hire people exclusively to deal with the FDA. Sometimes they will also be in charge of managing company IPs.

[sleek egret]

there are consulting firms you can hire for that, aren't there?

[mortal wedge]

I would assume so, because no company wants to fail an FDA audit.

[dreamy spade]

I'm wondering how programmers who work remotely will send their work so that the company they are working for receives it? Microsoft Teams? GitHub?

[sleek egret]

You commit a branch locally, then push it to the shared repo, then create a merge request

[peak halo]

the same way they would do it if they worked in an office. ones work computer doesn't care if it's in your house or the office.

[sleek egret]

it's trivial to have github or gitlab then push out notifications

[near ocean]

Its time to learn about git and assorted related tech

[sleek egret]

i hate that git won the dvcs wars

mercurial was so much easier

[dreamy spade]

So would that be Microsoft Teams? I never had a white-collar job before so I don't know how white-collar workers send their work.

[graceful mason]

a company-run gitlab/github server over a vpn

[dreamy spade]

I see.

[near ocean]

Teams is for communication, not sharing source code

[sleek egret]

or just use gitlab or github

what's the #3 company in the hosted git services field?

[near ocean]

Bitbucket (?) Thats what we use anyway

Gone are the days were i had to use sharepoint as version control

Idk who it is at my place that picks dev tools but i want to shoot out their kneecaps for picking jira/teams/outlook among other things

[graceful mason]

companies that use teams deserve to die
we use slack

[near ocean]

We're kind of locked into msft for AAD, i think it was more of a convenience thing that they went with teams/outlook than anything

[sleek egret]

wow, so many dead teams

[balmy spade]

I've never given it much thought. Tools are different everywhere. So long as I can chat and call my teammates, doesn't matter much which platform it uses. Though it is nice when a place has one solution and not a half dozen all under the same roof.

[near ocean]

I've probably spent more time clicking through jira links to get to the ticket i need than i should
Or more time trying to call someone on teams and having issues
Crazy how business tools are so bad

[barren garden]

Hi everyone,
I am trying to learn Python to change my career from ServiceNow (a SaaS for big corporates) to something more functional where I actually can make a change and can do satisfactory work that can be applied to a personal level not just for B2B's. I am thinking about heading towards AI/ML/Data Analysis with Python. I am good with JS, but mostly only within ServiceNow, so I am starting with Kaggle's courses (Intro to Programming, Python, Pandas, etc), and then planning to do the course.fast.ai.
1- Do you think this is a good approach or should I do other resources/learnings first? I have no interest in University-like courses (just PTSD you can say).
2- Do you recommend doing this career change at all (towards Python and away from a SaaS where I already have multiple years of experiences)?

Thanks

[mortal wedge]

I thought Teams was for video calls?

[brave bridge]

yes like zoom

[graceful mason]

i have friends who work at places that use teams for everything

[mortal wedge]

Career changes are challenging but doable. You need to focus on any transferrable skills and be ready to answer the question of "Why are you looking to switch?"

[barren garden]

I see, good point. Would this be any different if I was planning to directly head into freelancing when doing the switch?

[balmy spade]

Teams is tied into the 365 environment. It's a platform for video, voice, text, filesharing, colab, and anything else they try to shoehorn in. Almost all of it works most the time too.

[distant phoenix]

Looking for a Data Analyst job

[near ocean]

Cool, this isnt a job board

[delicate bane]

same with my company. teams def feels like a hot mess thats for sure

[gilded valley]

Slack Vs Teams is such a huge QoL improvement, I really think any company skimping on the 15$/m/employee is shooting themselves in the foot

[dreamy spade]

Are you currently enrolled in a degree program or have graduated from a degree program within the last 6 months?

I hate questions like these for applications. "within the last 6 months" irks me. I'm fresh out of college and I'm already struggling to find a job. I was struggling even before I graduated. There may be a time where I don't land a job in more than 6 months and employers are going to want candidates who graduated in the last 6 months. Infuriating.

[smoky quest]

In general, it's for information purpose and used as a signal, not outright rejecting you.
Although there are some cynical people out there who may think that if someone hasn't found a job 6 months after graduating, it may be because they weren't in the better half of that cohort of students

[vapid jay]

I learned coding a little bit and know fhe basics. I am eager to learn more but lack motivation to do so because i have no point to work toward. I want to give myself this point by getting experience no matter what way. How do i start to find projects and clients to work for.

[smoky quest]

The path with the most opportunities and least resistance would be to aim for a CS degree

[vapid jay]

Thats an issue

Because i am 15 and in school

[near ocean]

Why is it an issue? Its not like youre out of uni, working another job and cant go back

[peak halo]

you're not going to find any clients who want to hire someone who only knows the basics. or even someone who has been practicing for months. and it's very unlikely that they're going to want to hire a teenager.

There's no issue here. You can focus on doing well in school, and start a CS program when you're done with compulsory education.

[smoky quest]

Then:

• Aim for a CS degree and make sure you have the grades to do so
• Have fun and build things! Make robots, AI/ML, websites, backend, etc. It will help you learn what is CS about, the various fields and build some knowledge and experience.

But at 15, people are unlikely to take you seriously, nor would you have the skills to do greater-than-pocket-money jobs

[vapid jay]

Thats a good point. What would a good pocket-money coding job be?

[peak halo]

UI stuff, maybe?

[smoky quest]

Doing small and odd jobs for your uncle, neighbor, teacher, etc.

[graceful mason]

And doing UI stuff requires you to build a portfolio and network a bunch tbh

You're better off doing your own personal coding projects, find a saturday or part-time job if you need cash, and focus towards a degree

[vapid jay]

What do you mean by UI jobs

[near ocean]

Building a decent portfolio probably would take longer than a degree
People dont just stumble into production ready projects to show off

[smoky quest]

tbh, "portfolio" wouldn't provide much value anyway. The stuff you do at 15 years old will be irrelevant comparing to what you will do 3-5 years later at 18-20

[peak halo]

user interface. but Blartzel is probably right.

[vapid jay]

I understand

Does coding knowledge this early matter alot when i will need it later in life when i get a degree

[smoky quest]

also fyi, at 15, it's way too early to try to specialize. so try random and various things to see what sticks and you enjoy, but also learn what you do not enjoy

[smoky quest]

It's a fun thing to learn anyway. It would make some things easier later

[near ocean]

Why are you trying to rush into paid jobs/freelance? Its hard and it takes a while to get going and thats why people opt for salaried positions and degrees

[graceful mason]

Degrees generally start assuming you don't have any coding knowledge, you can get in to uni with just good maths knowledge and showing interest

If you want to get into any sort of prestigious uni (which isn't necessary in the long run) then they might be expecting you to be coding early on

[vapid jay]

I just always told myself that i wanted to do that

[near ocean]

Sure, i did the same but i didnt rush into dealing with all the bad stuff that comes with freelancing
I took my time and did my degrees and whatnot

[vapid jay]

Thanks for your honesty

[mortal wedge]

Oh, did not realize it was like an all in one thing. Idk, Zoom has been more reliable for me than trying to troubleshoot why I'm having trouble connecting and using Teams when doing external communications with other businesses.

I do want to also warn that freelance can be... unstable. Life is harder when your income is not regular. I was doing freelance during the pandemic and while other people may have gotten laid off and gotten compensation packages or continue to be employed and collect a paycheck, most freelancers were not. We just had less income during that period

That's when I decided I wanted to be salaried and to leave freelance behind.

[thorn arrow]

Hello for data engineering careers, you want to write Object Oriented Programming in Python, take a look at Data Classes: https://medium.com/gitconnected/all-you-need-to-start-coding-with-data-classes-db421bf78a64

[mortal wedge]

I don't think it matters a lot, but it does give you an edge over your peers which may impress teachers, get you better grades, may get you into more exclusive classes, etc. etc. etc.

Data classes are pretty neat, I wholeheartedly recommend them.

[spark cobalt]

Having knowledge of the industry and what technology is capable of will allow you to plan for what field of tech you want to do, have the time to invest in projects relating to it to get internships even as a freshman.

But that's all I can think of. The advantage of having the time to be able to work on projects for your resume and also display years of continued effort in programming to land internships earlier than your peers.

Good projects take time.

Lots of CS students I know now, from freshman to senior, still aren't sure what they want to do within tech. Having a goal and plan will help a lot. Gives you a line of focus to follow.

[mortal wedge]

Also, if you decide early on that tech/CS is not for you, better to find out when younger than when you're in the middle of a university program

[balmy spade]

To add onto the encouragement; even as you seek to figure out what you want to do remember to stay flexible. What you choose to do now doesn't need to be what you do later. Heck, often it isn't!

[pastel delta]

How soon should I start working on independent projects? Should I focus on learning basics and some intermediate skills for 3-6 months first? Or after I learn some basics create a project-even if it won’t be part my portfolio in a couple years?

[peak halo]

as soon as you think of an independent project that you want to do. you might find out as you're doing it that it's too advanced for you at the moment. And you might decide in a few years that a completed project doesn't need to be highlighted.

and rewriting an old project using things you've learned since then can be good as well.

[upbeat zinc]

Hey guys is it realistic to go for senior positions after three years working in the industry?

[peak halo]

what counts as "senior" will vary between companies. if there's a listing for a senior position that mandates at least three years of experience, you can apply and see what happens.

[mortal wedge]

Depends on many factors, tbh. If you're a rockstar and can prove it, go for it.

[graceful mason]

Average is probably around 5 years, but it depends on the field/company and your knowledge/experience
You should aim for the stage above entry and below senior

[mortal wedge]

The general heirarchy, (that not all companies follow or they have gaps in) are associate -> junior -> senior -> staff -> principal

associate is entry level, principal is proof you are a GOD among men the most experienced.

[peak halo]

my department also has "senior principal".

[upbeat zinc]

Is an associate an intern?

[peak halo]

intern might even be below associate.

[upbeat zinc]

I only see junior mid senior. No staff principal or associate openings

[peak halo]

you ultimately have to go by the requirements in the listing. but the "requirements" are often soft.

(that is, you don't actually have to meet all of them, but they'll evaluate your credentials as they compare to the requirements.)

so, I guess they're "criteria" more than they are "requirements".

[pastel delta]

Do u think I should create a project even if it has nothing to do with my intended career position per say? I’m thinking of making a habit-building app for the App Store for fun. But isn’t really related to ML or Data science

[pastel delta]

To add some color to this question- I saw a vid of someone this morning who applied to Slack. He ended up getting the job, and actually gave him the senior position for it (while he applied to a lower level position). Their reasoning is because Slack wanted to fit him a role that he was capable of

[stone oracle]

😆😆😆

[mortal wedge]

You have to spend a lot of hard work on doing non-work things. I think that's what people are missing

You have to network, build a client base, maintain client relationships, advertise, work on your soft skills, etc. I swear I spent more time hustling for work than I did like "working"

[peak halo]

@vapid jay @stone oracle neither this nor any other channel in our server is for meme dumping. Try r/ProgrammerHumor, or something 😛

[delicate bane]

my friend whos a full-stack swe wanted to do freelancing but he doesnt want to do any of this. and i was like you probably need to find a business partner or somebody who would be willing to do this type of stuff

[mortal wedge]

Freelancing is attractive for a lot of reasons, but... you need clients, lol

and it helps me not panic when I have a steady revenue stream. Sure you could always lose your job, but I think your client well drying up is a larger concern than losing your job in most cases.

[brittle thorn]

Ideally you got a service that sells itself... I had one for 9 years with freelance library data conversion ... is niche ...file formats are complicated and no marketing the library software vendor did it all and outsource data conversion to me

So the service must not be a commodity in which you got dozens of competitors aiming for lowest cost

Think niche and high value then charge high I charged per record lmao

Don't charge for your time if possible

Nah developers are furry then in general lmao

Am one

The deadlines and overtime kinda kills hygiene sometimes I did overtime and overnight at my first job...maybe not entirely our fault

[rancid sedge]

What do you guys think about AI replacing developers? I have played alot with ChatGPT and there is huge hype on that but chatGPT have alot of issues, it looks okay when your untrained on that language, but if you really look into details of that there is alot of issues on solution it gives you. what I can see is that there is alot of univeristy/collge student use it for homework/assignemt and they don't try to learn which I think in the long run there will be lack of skilled programmer in the future. any thoughts?

[peak halo]

I work in the language AI department at my company, and none of us think ChatGPT is going to replace any developer.

whenever ChatGPT produces a correct code solution for a problem statement, it can only do that if there existed enough human-written, relevant code in the training data. So you won't find any code examples that use libraries written after the model was created.

So even under the circumstances that are most favorable for ChatGPT, it's only a matter of time before it becomes outdated, and incapable of improving without more human-produced code.

[rancid sedge]

Agree in that part, I tested with some specilized code it does not produce any working solution or even 50% close, what do you think about untrained college/university students as they don't even bother to do their homework/assignments and use ChatGPT, do you think we will have low skill workforce in the future to replace older generation of programmer?

[balmy spade]

I think that every generation has asked this same question in principle and that the results speak for themselves.

[peak halo]

there's never going to be a generation of developers who depend on ChatGPT to work. They wouldn't be able to accomplish anything that anyone would pay for.

so, either they would be fired (if they're underperforming individually), or their company would go under (if they're collectively impotent)

college/university students as they don't even bother to do their homework/assignments and use ChatGPT
plagiarism isn't a new problem, but we'll see how ChatGPT changes that game.

[rancid sedge]

Yeah agree on that part on the workforce, but I think AI solution like ChatGPT will make it hard for plagiarism to be detected, as I see colleged student using that for their homework, and I think they certainly can use that to get degree, job market is different, which they might not even able to pass interviews

[peak halo]

or it would make plagiarism easy to detect. because the instructor could check ChatGPT's responses to a few phrasings of the question and check solutions against it.

ChatGPT can only do the same thing so many ways. There's a finite amount of training data it's drawing from.

[balmy spade]

which they might not even able to pass interviews
The concern seems to solve itself.

[brittle thorn]

That leads to unemployeable graduates

Not entirely solved

Although this is a problem rn

[balmy spade]

There is no shortcut to learning a skill. If you take the easy route, you reap the lesser reward. It's really that simple.

[rancid sedge]

Yeah concern is more on gap of jobs that will not be filable by europe or US companies they have to import those from other countries who still don't use AI, or never heared of it and learning from books or library.

like generation of IT gratudates who know nothing about skills in IT.

[peak halo]

Euclid was asked by King Ptolemy I if there is not a shorter road to geometry than through [Euclid's geometry textbook]. Euclid replied that "there is no royal road to geometry."

[balmy spade]

More like a statistical likely-hood that the same students who would take a shortcut still do. The only thing that changed is which shortcut they used.

[brave bridge]

can you translate it to dumbed-down english

[balmy spade]

It wanders off the trail of "will AI replace programmer careers" and falls neatly into "technology changes things and we change with it".

[peak halo]

just that the ancient mathematician who "invented" geometry basically said the same thing Preocts said a moment ago.

[brave bridge]

the same students that take shortcut will now take one additional more shortcut and be more useless after having their degree

[balmy spade]

You think a student already choosing to cheat would put effort into cheating twice?

[brave bridge]

if he gains from it, probably yes

[rancid sedge]

I think more accurate cheating or complete cheating thatn 50% cheating, before they use to cheat 20% of their grade now they will do it 90%

[brave bridge]

oh i see

[balmy spade]

Sounds like borrowing a problem where there isn't one that doesn't already exist.

[rancid sedge]

like they used to cheat to get passing score, now they will cheat to get more accurate and good grades

[brave bridge]

yes that makes sense especially for stuff like math/physics/coding imo

[brave bridge]

werent u a helper/mod before?

[peak halo]

what's this about "countries who still don't use AI"? the regions from which the US and Europe are "importing" technical workers (like Africa and Asia) have plenty of AI experts.

[balmy spade]

This isn't about grades though, is it? It's about a piece of paper that gets you a job interview that you may or may not be ready for, right?

[peak halo]

I keep hearing that Nigerians are the most educated immigrant subset in the US.

[brittle thorn]

Yes this is true

[brave bridge]

seems logical when to immigrate to us you already need to be a somewaht educated/rich nigerian

can one see the nationalities on this server?

e.g. how many are EU/afirca/NA/SA etc.?

[peak halo]

The staff has survey results from last year, but that's kept internal. Though we do have at least one AI phd student from Africa.

[brave bridge]

that can be many if there is only 0 from EU. or not much if theres 500 of EU 😆

[brittle thorn]

Nah not all educated Third World people wanna migrate to US some got comfortable lives and jobs here via outsourcing or home grown startups

[brave bridge]

ofc not. but many who dont want probably still go to US at least for further education no? and then go back

[brittle thorn]

We got local PHD programs too I had MS units

[brave bridge]

where u from? continent enough

[brittle thorn]

Philippines

Asia

[brave bridge]

i was so happy when i had my masters

[rancid sedge]

I think it's more about miedium level jobs that will be impacted, not speciliazed AI, I have colleged that is working in my company that are from Asia and Africa. I think my point was lower or mediumy level programmer not AI PHD or specilaized software engineers, as those fields will never be replaced by AI.

[brave bridge]

not because of the degree, but because i was done with garbage
university/degree/thesis never in my life again. so boring 🤮

[brittle thorn]

Lmao

Some enjoy thesis writing

[rancid sedge]

That is why I don't want to do masters, I don't like thesis lol.

[brave bridge]

i disliked my degree very much, so it is mostly a "me" problem iguess. dont know how it was for you

[balmy spade]

Without intending to sound derisive, why did you get it then?

[brave bridge]

what mean derisive

[balmy spade]

dismissive of the effort that you put forward and of the accomplishment.

[brittle thorn]

I didn't finish my masters but still published a paper in a peer reviewed journal

[rancid sedge]

I only take my degree to put it in my CV, I had job before I get my degree Im more self learner, mostly udemy and pluralsight is where I learn everything

[brave bridge]

kind of because i started it and then it would have been somewhat stupid not to finish it and maybe i like it when im done. but nope

if i knew how much i liked coding, i should have stopped after bachelor and got a M.Sc. in IT/CS or smth

[brave bridge]

but i only touched coding at the end of masters pretty much 💀

[balmy spade]

Well, thank you for answering. Perhaps lesson learned then.

[brittle thorn]

Was it Matlab lmao

[rancid sedge]

since topic is in masters, do you think Master is good for career? like does it give you leverage for management positions ?

[brave bridge]

yes 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀

[brittle thorn]

I can relate

[brave bridge]

HR get boners for degrees

[brittle thorn]

HR too lazy to check for potential so resort to degrees

[brave bridge]

tbf degree is the easiest minimum filter

[balmy spade]

I know many HR folks. I would not call any of them lazy.

[brave bridge]

idk about lesson learned. i guess i will know when i find a new job that is coding related if i like it more. but i never sit down in my freetime to do something degree related. whereas i can sit with vsc and try solve problem and have fun. that is new to me lol 😭

[rancid sedge]

I thought everything on HR end is done by ATS, they only look what ATS give them

[pulsar drum]

If your employer is willing to pay for it, and you enjoy or can at least tolerate more education, then I'd say it's worth it.

[brittle thorn]

Yeah have fun coding during downtime

[brave bridge]

i would not mind having fun with anything i do?

[rancid sedge]

I have to do it out of pocket, I do like to have masters only looking into if I should do MBA or MIT, the reason why I want MBA is looking into going in management of IT as I have been working in databases, multiple cloud and data engineering/Devops for the past 10 years.

[summer roost]

how do you suggest that HR should evaluate potential?

[brittle thorn]

That is a good question indeed maybe be a bit more open minded and not too formulaic people can take different paths to achieve competence in a certain domain

[brave bridge]

probably problem: HR gets 50 applications

45 have degrees and are safer bet then the 5 without --> why give them a chance? --> dont get a chance

[brittle thorn]

Yes it's about reducing risk

[summer roost]

I asked how they should evaluate potential - "be open minded" isn't a method for evaluating potential

[brittle thorn]

But you miss out on the outliers

[balmy spade]

The statement of throwing the 5 without degree assumes the only filter is a degree which isn't the case.

[brittle thorn]

The filter could be more multidimensional

[brave bridge]

but its one of the big filters

[balmy spade]

I would say it's one the of the late filters.

[brave bridge]

what is one of the first then?

other than obviously bad resume

[balmy spade]

Is the online form filled out correctly is one of the first filters my company uses. They need to run background checks. If you exclude information from the form, they literally cannot process you.

[brave bridge]

id expect every one of those 50 applicants to do that correctly

[balmy spade]

You would then be surprised.

[brave bridge]

ok but lets assume the 50 did it correct

is AST filtering out people without degree already? sometimes i assume?

if not arent alot of HR people filtering out those without degree (according to this channel at least´- if you dont have a degree, you should not even try to apply)

[summer roost]

ATS's don't do any filtering themselves, beyond whether they are able to parse the provided resume/contact info.

[brave bridge]

i mean if you cant enter a valid degree in the degree part of the form

[summer roost]

think of an ATS as ingestion into a spreadsheet. Someone might filter or sort the candidates based on information aggregated by the ATS, but the ATS itself isn't throwing out candidates. It's just getting the data into a form that HR can leverage.

[junior rain]

I wanna be a pilot but I wanna learn python, will it be useful ?

[brave bridge]

for being a pilot? most likely not really

[summer roost]

sure, if the form requires a degree, that would be the company's way of telling you that they won't hire someone without a degree. I've never seen that, though, personally. There are lots of people who got jobs as software developers before computer science became a common program offered by universities. Refusing to hire people just because of a lack of degree cuts you off from one of the deepest talent pools, people with 30 years of experience

[junior rain]

Ohh

[brave bridge]

you can still learn to code, to have fun(if you enjoy it) or to train your brain

[balmy spade]

Both sound like skills that could bring value to your life.

[brave bridge]

sure but people with 30 years coding experience and no degree

[balmy spade]

Yes?

[brittle thorn]

The outliers

[brave bridge]

are not really comparable to degreeless people with 2 years coding experience

[brittle thorn]

Or someone so bright as to not need uni

[summer roost]

sure. But everyone goes through the ATS, so if the ATS is rejecting people with 30 years of experience and no degree, someone has badly misconfigured something.

[brave bridge]

i just hope that my garbage degree is sufficient to apply when i have made some coding experience in my freetime

[balmy spade]

Which is what I was less eloquently trying to point out.

[brittle thorn]

That is then a narrow filter

[balmy spade]

didn't you say you have a masters?

[brave bridge]

yes but not CS/IT

[brittle thorn]

What is your degree BTW it isn't garbage

[balmy spade]

It's applicable then.

[brave bridge]

applicable to what

[brittle thorn]

Is it maths or science

[brave bridge]

as in it helps me get past that minimum filter maybe a little better than people without a degree at all?

[balmy spade]

Haha! To anything. "Has masters degree"; okay, nice checkbox on able to commit to the long haul and education. Next.

[brave bridge]

sry i dont understand that sentence 🇺🇸 my english sometimes anti-proficiency

[balmy spade]

Understandable. My English is fairly poor most the time as well.

It is to say; The degree will be a strong statement on your CV/resume regardless of the study. Working through a degree takes effort, concentration, commitment, and self-motivation.

Perhaps I'm completely in the wrong here though. I only know second-hand.

[summer roost]

I agree: having a degree, no matter the subject, reflects positively on a job candidate.

[brave bridge]

i put it back in resume then 💀

[fleet reef]

How negative is not having one?

[balmy spade]

A more personal anecdote: I helped a roommate get a job in a research lab. They wanted to hide the fact that they worked at Starbucks on their resume. I not only insisted they list it but I pushed them to focus on all the skills they could bring to a lab from seven years of working at a Starbucks.
Long-term employee. Time management. Task oriented. Calm in chaos. Detail focused. etc.

Never discount something you've learned/earned just because it doesn't seem to fit.

[brave bridge]

the more negative the less you can compensate it

[summer roost]

I don't know that you can really quantify that. Having a degree tilts the scales in a positive direction, but so does having a few years of work experience. How many years of experience is equal to a degree depends on what you learned from those years of experience - and what you learned from the degree

[peak halo]

I worked in a research lab and at starbucks concurrently. included both in the resume I sent to the company I now work for. 😛

[balmy spade]

This explains much of why your power is neigh unstoppable.

[peak halo]

my power? from caffeine?

[brittle thorn]

Yes

[brittle thorn]

Pet for comfort

[balmy spade]

I've worked 25'ish some black Fridays and holiday seasons in retail. Nothing compared to the single BOGO Frap Friday I helped with at. Absolute chaos.

[brave bridge]

can you not mention caffeine while im trying to get through my caffeine withdrawal process?

[brittle thorn]

I need coffee

[peak halo]

one can't be expected to avoid uncommon triggers, but I had to withdraw for a week a few months ago, so I'm sorry to hear.

[brave bridge]

i started reducing caffeine ~2 weeks ago

im down to like 40% coffein intake compared to back then

[smoky quest]

The filter is not binary. It's also not automated.
It's HR/EMs that look at the resume and decide if it's worth calling you back. As there are tons of applicants (think 3/4 digits numbers of applicants) and it's on top of all their other duties, they don't have that much time to think through it. So your resume has to convey your skills/experience within 30/45second and be at least as good as the other applicants to be worth talking to

[rare flicker]

cs is basically formatted math

[graceful mason]

that's what mathematicians like to tell themselves

[vapid jay]

This might be a weird question, but how the fuck do you deal with engineers? I'm one of the only software developers at a small company and dealing with EE people forced into coding positions feels like herding fucking cats.

[brittle thorn]

What specific issues are you having it's hard to give advice to something that vague... not all Engineers are alike some maybe better coders than others.

[vapid jay]

I've been working on refactoring a C++ codebase and was chewed out by some of our senior engineers for converting resource management from C-style cleanup routines to RAII, because "at least I could see what was happening with GOTO statements." They really just don't care about using any kind of appropriate idioms because "X works, and I understand it." My manager has my side but I swear they are the smartest dumb people I've ever encountered.

[brittle thorn]

Oh I see yeah that kinda problematic

[vapid jay]

The other half of my job is providing devops/it support for them and they don't bother to understand any of the systems, they just want recipes. What's odd is that these are very smart people who work on things beyond my pay grade. I think they just think it's below them, to be honest.

[brittle thorn]

I would take your side too maybe explain maintainability they are Engineers after all would they want to design a half ass circuit that works but is a mess

Use analogies maybe

[vapid jay]

That is good advice

[brittle thorn]

Happy new year

[vapid jay]

You too!

[brittle thorn]

Hopefully they see the light

[brittle thorn]

Maybe yeah if they were forced to the role without consultation they could be resentful maybe

If a smart guy is motivated he or she could adjust

[vapid jay]

I also had a big argument with them about why I'm not going to upload scripts to our public repos that have tokens with unrestricted access to our GitLab instances embedded in them. I basically had to threaten going way above their head to get them to stop pressuring me after hanging up the call. Mind you, these are repos that people outside our organization can access.

[brittle thorn]

I would too

[vapid jay]

bizarre imo

[brittle thorn]

Maybe go meet with your boss and the Engineers and map out what are your duties and what are their duties .. these maybe senior staff that sees a junior overriding their judgment as an offense...try to develop clear procedures and processes that take those pain points away to default to beneficial interactions

These roles, duties and responsibilities if written and a consensus is formed maybe better than a top down edict...there is buyin

Let them sign and agree to the roles after consultation

Explain why you should all work together for the greater good and why some of these prior interactions were not productive.

Maybe some team building exercise is required however soft and mushy that is

[brittle thorn]

I hope this helps good luck

[golden falcon]

I am still young and i want to know whats best thing that i can learn

And give it my time
thats can help me when i grow in future ?

[brittle thorn]

Only you could answer that...what are your goals, your dreams and ambitions

[mint oracle]

Hello Guys I know django and now thinking to learn some advance stuff

can u suggest some courses ?

Any youtube coursea courses?

[spark cobalt]

How are you building your frontend?

Either way, I enjoyed William S Vincent's books for Django. He has 3 books and they're all pretty stellar. I'd definitely look into working with DRF.

The more advanced topics things go, the less I trust these online courses. The iffy part of these online courses is that these are people generally making courses full time, not actually developing full time. It causes a lot of issues like them sharing bad practices (oftentimes without them even knowing) etc.

If you're in tutorial hell, I'd recommend you try to get out ASAP.

[brittle thorn]

What is reverse of Tutorial Hell ...Project Heaven?

New year here

[spark cobalt]

Happy New Years

[mint oracle]

i already read william s vincent

Happy New year Guys!
I'm looking new stuff in backend after learning django

[spark cobalt]

Have you worked with DRF?

[mint oracle]

yeah

[brittle thorn]

That had been the iffy part of college profs teaching full time too and not being up to date with latest stuff in my experience

So any full time teacher probably is a bit out of date regardless

Unless they are diligent in keeping up

Matlab ahem

[mint oracle]

what u suggest what next after django?

[brittle thorn]

Maybe FastAPI

[spark cobalt]

Can learn a new language like Go and do the same thing

[brittle thorn]

Yep

[mint oracle]

no i'm looking for backend

[spark cobalt]

Go is backend... Growing very fast in the industry I think.

[brittle thorn]

Yes go is nice

[mint oracle]

stuff advanced stuff new stuff.
learning go is similar to learning fastapi/django

[spark cobalt]

Have you touched cloud stuff?

[balmy mural]

Just trying to arbitrarily choose something that's good for you is very... arbitrary. What's your goal?

[mint oracle]

nope

[brittle thorn]

This good point

[mint oracle]

I'm trying to learn web development especially backend

i have no idea utube has less resource and i don;t know what can i learn after django/drf and project

[spark cobalt]

Would look into cloud storage, may need you to look into a bit of networks, figuring out one of AWS/Azure/GCP (hell, maybe OCI ).

Also maybe practice with different types of databases. If you've only done relational (which I think Django does Postgres/SQlite?), why not give something like MongoDB a shot?

[balmy mural]

NoSQL databases, caching, testing are three things you could look at, cloud storage is also nice

[mint oracle]

Any course/tutorial recommendation

[spark cobalt]

This is more theoretical stuff, I'd read a textbook/book on it. I wouldn't trust a content creator to teach these sort of things right.

[balmy mural]

I generally learn from books, so I'm not really familiar with any courses. For azure you can use Microsoft's official learning material if you want to, it's good enough to get you started

[spark cobalt]

AWS has an online course/certificate for its platform.

Also in general, I'd look into things like Docker, Github and whatnot.

[balmy mural]

Azure also has certifications for the platform. Choosing between the two I'd just look at jobs in your country to see which one is used more to choose which to go with

[mint oracle]

I will try
byy
Happy New year

[rapid tundra]

Happy New Year!

[rancid sedge]

youtube have huge resource, anything you want to learn can be found on https://www.youtube.com/@freecodecamp , each cours is hours long they are complete courses.

[spark cobalt]

I've done like quite a few of their courses from beginning to complete. Most of them barely get past beginner level of anything, or abstracts a lot of knowledge (like their ML course)

They may be hours long, but they are in no way complete in terms of offering complete knowledge of a subject. They barely scratch the surface

Primary issue is a lot of the FCC staff aren't professional software engineers. Frankly, they don't have the experience to give decent insights on more advanced topics. (And from my experience, they're generally not decent)

I would definitely hesitate before doing a freeCodeCamp course.

[rancid sedge]

I agree, but they are free though, it's good starting point, once you know which one you got interest on then you can move to more advance topics there are some good youtube channel that dedicate on specific part of the stack like some Java/Java script etc I would also recommand pluralsight, they have huge libaray of training from beginner-advance.

[spark cobalt]

They're free, but just they can teach bad paradigms/practices/habits early which may be hard to break later. In general, I would try to vet whoever's teaching a course, on LinkedIn and verify they have the experience to back up their claims.

You will be awfully disappointed at many of these content creator's experience.

Tech With Tim for example, only has 1 year of total experience as a software engineer.

[rancid sedge]

yeah, "tech with tim" is very bad, when he learn something then he make video about that. but Im talking about more experience developers like "Python Simplified" she is very good for python, or "Programming with Mosh" best teacher and very experienced

[smoky quest]

https://www.manning.com/books/microservices-patterns it's a really good book that covers most aspects of backend. Note it's more focused on java but the principles remain the same.
Java is also a great language to know for backend too!

[golden falcon]

Does anyone have any suggestions ?

[smoky quest]

What do you want to do later?

The main thing is to try different things to see what's out there, what you like and dislike. It will also help build some basic skills in a lot of different subjects

[frail smelt]

Hello

I just joined this server !

I'm really interested in becoming a data scientist, which is why i'm trying to learn Python, does anyone have any recommandations, free websites that can teach me and provide good exercices for me to get better and better ? thank you in advance for ur suggestions

[pine sleet]

!resources Welcome! Thanks for flying with us 😄 You can see a bunch of cool resources in the link below 👇

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[frail smelt]

thank you so much !

[zenith inlet]

In the US, do companies tend to ignore their corporate employment portals in favor of application flows from indeed and linkedin?

[balmy spade]

Not from my experience. If the application doesn't come into the workflow of the company portal, it doesn't exist.

[near ocean]

So they do the opposite? Favour their own portal over linkedin easy apply or whatever

[zenith inlet]

So it's the reverse? Indeed and LinkedIn applicants get thrown into the trash bin?

[balmy spade]

I think you might be thinking of recruiters? They will use other mediums to find folks but everything gets routed to the workflow intake.

[zenith inlet]

I'm specifically asking about applying to an opening listed on both Indeed and on a corporate site.

[peak halo]

I would always apply on the website for the company, and not on linkedin/indeed. companies don't host their own application portals if they aren't using them. And at the two companies where I've worked, an application must exist in the application portal for them to begin the hiring process.

[balmy spade]

I agree with Stelercus. The Indeed application is a recruiter. Sooner or later that will need to flow back to the company and be re-entered.

[peak halo]

when I was job hunting, I would put any linkedin job listings in a spreadsheet, and then go find the websites for the companies.

[zenith inlet]

Ah, I think I see the disconnect in our understandings: you're claiming that the Indeed listings are almost always a third-party recruiter?

[balmy spade]

They are always a third-party. Indeed is a third-party.

[zenith inlet]

True, but my understanding is that paying indeed is cheaper than paying a recruiting agency.

[balmy spade]

Unless Indeed now offers HR portals as a SaaS solution.

[peak halo]

SaaSS

[balmy spade]

Probably some truth behind that. But that's marketing. Eventually the application needs to come back to a system where the company's HR works from. That usually involves the applicant needing to re-enter all their stuff again.
Putting your application into the company directly get you into the workflow directly.

[near ocean]

Indeed usually has 2 ways to let you apply
One redirects to the company page,
The other is through this easy apply thing that ships your data off to someone, presumably working for the company youre applying to
Is this second method treated the same as directly applying through company portals?

[balmy spade]

Not a bad move for them if they wanted to make bank. But that's competing against WorkDay and... good luck.

[smoky quest]

It does not matter.
It's all linked and funnel to an ATS

[peak halo]

companies might also not want their HR portal managed by a company whose main service is helping people find different jobs.

[smoky quest]

They do have an ATS solution. They play both sides

[balmy spade]

Nice.

[peak halo]

I don't think one can say that it doesn't matter unless one knows what the arrangement is between linkedin/indeed and the company in question. the level of integration probably varies.

[smoky quest]

They all integrates with the popular ATSes

You setup your ATS and then connect to various job boards/sources

[balmy spade]

I'd still prefer to apply to the company portal myself. Though I also would go seek out the recruiter, shake hands, and give them a physical copy on some nice stationary. Absolute old school. :3

[smoky quest]

That's a bit more difficult for remote jobs 😉

[zenith inlet]

What about for an IT/dev outsourcing company?

[balmy spade]

I've been pondering that. I have an offer on the shelf, I'd like to have two.

[peak halo]

the type of company doesn't matter, just how their hiring pipeline integrates with third party recruitment platforms. which has nothing to do with what the company does.

[smoky quest]

What about it?

[balmy spade]

I'm isolated atm. Got to reconsider how I'd find a new job should the situation demand it.

[leaden jasper]

@balmy spade Virtual networking is still pretty powerful. I went to a virtual career fair that an organization I'm part of hosted. Connected with a technical person representing the company, we hit it off, and now I'm at this new job

[balmy spade]

Yay! Once my unexpected leave is over I'll have to get my rear in gear with those. If nothing else, it will be great to be involved with the larger community.

[spark cobalt]

Workday is a pain in the ass

[mortal wedge]

That's so awesome! Great to hear 🙂 Also I admit that when I first saw "virtual networking" I was wondering what kind of programming that was, lol

Also, out of curiosity, I have a question for the professional developers here. How much hobby coding/free time coding do you do?

[balmy spade]

I'm sure it's an amazing software for those that know how to use it. The issue my company has is that everyone who knew how to use it left. (no joke, we lost the entire launch team)

[balmy spade]

Probably far too much but I find myself doing at least an hour a day of free time coding. Usually far more.

[spark cobalt]

I was meaning for applying to jobs lol. I saw Workday but didn't know it was in a different context. Workday applications take unnessecarily long

[mortal wedge]

That's... I'm sorry, I can't think of any other term besides "hilarious"

[mortal wedge]

Workday is both for applying for jobs and for companies to sort through applicants, I believe

[balmy spade]

It was/is pretty funny to me too.

[spark cobalt]

Oh so even on the company side it's bad too? Damn

[mortal wedge]

At least, if you have no employees who know how to use it

[balmy spade]

Workday is an entire HR SaaS. Payroll, legal, accounts, and everything.

[mortal wedge]

We use ADP

[spark cobalt]

UIs that are hard to use, are bad UIs. UIs should be intuitive.

[mortal wedge]

My only problem with ADP is that it's rubbish if you've worked for multiple companies that have used ADP >.> It seems like it's mainly built for an employee only ever working at a single ADP company

[spark cobalt]

We use BambooHR w/ Trinet

[pulsar drum]

Way less than I did when I was still in uni. But trying to pick it back up. I think there's only so much coding I want to do in a day and I kind of get my fix from work already.

[spark cobalt]

Like 4 hours a day. Working on a side project.

[mortal wedge]

I have a bunch of programming projects I'd love to dive in to as well as programming related games, but after a vicious work week of programming I just don't give a crap today, lol. Was wondering how it was for others

[spark cobalt]

8+ hours of work. 3-4 hours of project. 1 hour of Japanese. 1 hour of Physics. 1 hour of World History. Makeup of my day.

[mortal wedge]

damn dawg, you're getting your learning on

[spark cobalt]

Well I need to make up for college in some way.

My dad was a physics professor for a couple of years, he's mentoring me as replacement for college.

[true harness]

workday is alright on the payroll side tbh. I just wish for applications you could make one account

[pulsar drum]

I wouldn't characterise my experience as vicious, but yeah I do feel a bit burned out at the end of the day and just want to do something more brainless.

[mortal wedge]

It might just be that I had a particularly rough week.

[balmy spade]

There's something to be said about kicking back after work and not looking at a computer monitor full of code for a few hours. I usually say "Ahhhhhhh".

[spark cobalt]

My eyes have been deteriorating. Like 16 hours on the screen.

Have that blue screen shit on my glasses too and everything.

[balmy spade]

Just take care of yourself. You can push all you want. If you don't take care while doing so your body will take actions against you.

[spark cobalt]

I go to the gym and that's the extent of it.

[mortal wedge]

Ah, gotcha. Good for you

[true harness]

sleep? diet? good chair?

[spark cobalt]

I eat pretty nicely as well. Sleep is like 5-6 hours a day. My chair sucks

I plan to move out in like 4 months to a bigger and nicer place. Maybe a studio dunno. But for now, I will suffer.

[mortal wedge]

I'll go ahead and plug https://iristech.co/. Has helped me with my sight and shutting down earlier in the evening and such

[spark cobalt]

Thank you

[mortal wedge]

You get a LOT of control over the filters and such they use

[spark cobalt]

I need everything I can get Thanks a lot

[balmy spade]

Hmm, I'll have to compare it to f.lux which I've used for a long time now.

[mortal wedge]

You're welcome!

[spark cobalt]

Company break is doing me really nicely. I've been able to sleep 11 hours a night and catch up on it. But back to work next Tuesday

[mortal wedge]

I've found it superior to F.lux. I used to use flux and while there are a myriad of benefits of iris over flux what did it for me was that flux kept screwing up while I was playing games >.>

[spark cobalt]

My eyes already feel relaxed with this filter on tf

[true harness]

placebo

[spark cobalt]

No I just deadass feel my eyes strain much less the moment it has turned on

Maybe though

Placebo cures

[mortal wedge]

Instead of the term "Placebo controlled medical studies" I wish they came up with the term "Trick or Treatment"

[spark cobalt]

Back to learning Japanese. Gbye

[balmy mural]

I have filters for my phone... I don't know why I never thought of getting one for my PC. Thanks for this!

[mortal wedge]

You're very welcome 🙂 Hope it helps!

[balmy mural]

I like how the programming filter inverts colors as if I don't have everything possible in dark mode already

[mortal wedge]

haha yeah. It's a bit redundant in that case

[balmy spade]

You mean you all don't flash-bang your co-workers by being the only sane person who uses light mode for all applications?

[worn heath]

Hey guys

I want to learn how to scam people from nigera as my farther taught me I think coding with help me

Am I right or wrong ?

[balmy spade]

1/10 weak troll.

[worn heath]

Im not trolling im actually want to know if I do coding will it help me scam people answer the question

U know I’m leaving I have no friends anyways

[pine sleet]

Scamming is not cool

Become a software engineer and make ten times the money you would scamming 👍

Use your skills for good, not evil

[worn heath]

But my dad scams people and he’s rich he makes 100k yearly he scams In nigera

But I see I will stop

[graceful mason]

<@&831776746206265384> he's still going 😦

[peak halo]

!mute 999820835114201158

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @worn heath until <t:1672528555:f> (1 hour).

[graceful mason]

damn fast response

[peak halo]

I was already here.

@worn heath in case you didn't know, joking about Nigerians being online scammers is racist, and not in line with our #code-of-conduct.

But even if you ignore that, shitposting in our channels is not appreciated. If you continue with this schtick after your mute expires (which I will probably increase in duration momentarily), you're out of here for good.

[pine sleet]

That's it?

[peak halo]

This does not need to continue.

[smoky quest]

Even post pandemic, remote jobs are still quite normalized. That would not be an issue

[vapid jay]

should I be afraid of the rumors that coding jobs will be hard to get if you dont go to college?

[balmy spade]

I don't think those are rumors. You need work experience or a way to supplement that experience and college degrees is the most common by far.

[summer roost]

getting a degree is the overwhelmingly common path to getting a coding job. Choosing to not get a degree makes your path much harder, and means that you'll need to try harder to convince companies to take a chance on you rather than going with someone who followed the standard path.

[spark cobalt]

It's not a rumor. It's true.

I had to put significantly more hours than the college student to get my first job.

[smoky quest]

These aren't rumors. That's going to be the hard cold wall you would be facing without a degree

[peak halo]

they're not rumors. Go look at job listings for coding jobs and see what the stated requirements are.

[pine sleet]

This message sums it up quite well
<#career-advice message>

[vapid jay]

Thank you Sir!

[quasi birch]

Hey all, noob here... I'm about halfway through Angela Yu's 100 days of code Python course. It seems to give a decent overview of different things python could be used for. Just wondering what types of courses would be appropriate to look into after this one? Also, which sectors are most in demand for python in terms of employment?

[spark cobalt]

Pretty much every sector is in demand. I would recommend that you look into what sector most fascinates you, and then work backwards to which languages are the most commonly used within the industry.

Python is a great stepping stone to learn other languages. And more often than not, you'll be working with multiple languages and not just Python/etc. I wouldn't limit yourself to just Python.

[quasi birch]

Thank you- I have a master's degree... in english lol. I'm assuming sectors like data science and machine learning would have relevant degree requirements? Is that correct or no?

[spark cobalt]

Generally all tech fields want to have a CS degree. But yes, some fields are easier to get into than others, especially in this case. AI/ML asks for a lot of theory + heavy mathematics which is why there's generally a higher bar of entry in terms of higher education/what degree you pursue.

[quasi birch]

Which fields use python with a lower bar of entry typically

[spark cobalt]

Web dev is arguably one of the easiest ways to break in, and is in heavy demand.

Probably some backend web dev role where Python is used for backend.

[quasi birch]

I see- thank you

[spark cobalt]

Maybe test/automation/DevOps engineer too?

[quasi birch]

Ah ok I will look into that as well

Much appreciated

[spark cobalt]

Learning other languages is easier than you think once you're solid with one general programming language. Best to not limit yourself in terms of opportunities

[violet lance]

Happy New Year to everyone !!

[vapid jay]

what does charmap codec cant decode mean
and how do i fix it

[runic stirrup]

any good resources to learn discrete mathematics?

[balmy mural]

Wrong channel, use #❓｜how-to-get-help

[scarlet dust]

Happy new year 🎉

[cunning condor]

Is parallel programming worth to learn?

[winged field]

hey i was wondering what field would be the best for a programmer to get a decent salary and also have time to spend with others i am 15 and i love programming in any language i can learn any language in one less than 24 hours well enough to make a project anyways if you have a field that would suit just reply to this message and hopefully i will see it

[peak halo]

probably anything other than game development. but what you're asking about is often called "work-life balance", and it usually has more to do with the company than anything.

[winged field]

ohh ok thanks

[boreal epoch]

@abhifr#5656

@hybrid shard

@hybrid shard

I need a help

@hybrid shard

[graceful mason]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[orchid violet]

hey i'm 15 and I've learnt python and made a bunch of desktop applications and projects with it and i also have have experience making games in Unity with c#. I'm currently learning c++ and I wanted to get into artificial intelligence. Could someone please advise me on how i could do that

[fiery zodiac]

hello does anyone knows good developing games app?

[boreal epoch]

Hm u r in class 10?

[peak halo]

AI is mostly about theory. you can start reading about it at any time, but doing it professionally virtually requires an advanced degree. I recommend this book: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/data-science-from/9781492041122/

[orchid violet]

yr 11

[orchid violet]

thanks

[weary sage]

Hi Everyone,

I am looking to get serious on my coding classes this year fasho.. but hey, i need you guys help to help make some feasible decision.
I'm seriously considering between Data Analysis and Blockchain Dev and i'm willing to give whichever one i choose all my best this year.
what do you guys strongly recommend based on the flexibility, Job availability, easier to become, and start to finish time.

P.S. i already have some background in Python and also i started a blockchain development course late last year on Alchemy University with JS basics.

I'll really appreciate y'all suggestion. Thanking you in advance

[lapis wind]

So, full warning, I am pretty biased against blockchain dev just because it drives me up the walls dealing with all the crypto kids.

That being said, out of those two options, Data Analysis would be my choice, although that seems less about programming

Reasons against blockchain:

• Not that many legitimate jobs in the grand scheme of things.
• No one needs yet another crypto coin or what ever, which is most of the job around it.
• A huge about of the crypto space is fill with scams, pump and dump schemes, etc... Not the best thing in the world to be associated with IMO.
• I have seen and been offered 👏 so 👏 fucking 👏 many 👏 blockchain 👏 start-up 👏 crypto 👏 jobs 👏 with 300k salary and all this and that, and what they actually mean by that figure and everything else is effectively payment with their own coin like, "Trust me bro, we'll pay you with this money we printed" is not uncommon.

Also yes I'm lumping Blockchain and Cypto coins together and hell we can chunk web3 in there as well because it's equally useless even though they're technically different, they're not really used for anything outside of this from what I've seen

Also to anyone who works in the industry or the Polkadot devs I spoke to earlier, if you're reading this, it's not you I dislike, it's just everything the industry is currently doing that I hate.

On a completely different side though, there are very much two side to Blockchain dev, the people who actually do the technical part like developing the protocols, algorithms, etc...
And then we have the more common one which is people just writing the contracts and similar, which IMO is really not a very transferable skill to other areas, you're better off just learning distributed architectures and state machines, and that's basically blockchain™️

I will say though, they seem like two very different jobs, if your aim is to have good job availability and flexibility, then why not something like Web development or similar? If you're very junior it'll be a lot easier to break into if you dont either have a data science degree, or just want to find a job which wont take the mick.

[dreamy spade]

There’s this company who emailed me an “interview question.” about using a vulnerability scanner and then asks me the solution on how to resolve the issue through lines of code. Does anyone know where I can look up on how to resolve security vulnerabilities as a web developer?

[lapis wind]

Is this a job you applied for?

[dreamy spade]

Yes.

[pine sleet]

I'm gonna go off a limb here and say you have a personal vendetta against anything web3

[lapis wind]

Its not even a personal vendetta, most of that message is just stating the current state of the whole thing

Distributed systems in a untrusted environment? very cool
Many scams, schemes and generally bad reputation to go with it? not so cool

[weary sage]

Thanks for the advice. i just want to make sure i'm doing something relatively, plus i have no interest i web development. I already had some wordpress skills and made a few websites with it, but i had no interest in going into web dev as there are too many people into that stuff and i think there are some no code tools looking to replace that completely. But yeah, i love python so much, but i'm unsure how becoming a data analyst will look like.
I don't have a data science degree, but i'm currently running a degree in E.E. i could do M.Sc in som CS/IT related field if possible in the future. but this are my options.. plus you could suggest me other fields applicable to Python that may not be as tasking as Data.

btw i'll appr suggestions or other people takes here

[lapis wind]

Generally speaking I think most Blockchain related things are not in python, if you're goal is to work with python that is then it probably leans more towards ML/AI or web dev

It's also worth noting that wordpress is a very long way off what things web dev can entail, generally speaking it's by far the most stable job market if that's what you're looking for

[dreamy spade]

Do you know how to resolve security vulnerabilities as a web developer?

[lapis wind]

What was the job for

[white relic]

Every EE I know writes code and most of them write Python (admittedly, not all very well). I'm curious why your degree in progress doesn't seem to figure into your career plans?

[weary sage]

I wansn't really interested in E.E when i got in

[dreamy spade]

The job description is as follows:

Responsibilities:

Candidates can anticipate consistent client interaction, participation in business development, writing proposals, and developing proposal methodologies.

Helping out other developers
Directing a group
Making reports and collecting data
Data analysis and understanding of outcomes
Responsible for creating applications
Skills/Experience:

Excellent Communication Skills.
GIT will be an advantage.
Strong knowledge of web protocols (XML and JSON).
Good understanding of web technologies and protocols including JSON, HTTP, and REST/SOAP APIs.
Strong understanding of object-oriented programming

[lapis wind]

And so these questions the interviewer has sent you are some sort of preliminary questions?

[dreamy spade]

It appears that way.

But at the same time I hear people say things like "Company wanted me to do free labour and not hire me"

[true harness]

but you also say it's just a few lines of code. i don't think it's likely the company would give you actual security vulnerabilities to fix

[peak halo]

@lapis wind what does a blockchain dev even do? implement the blockchain for the company and then do whatever sysadmin is needed on it? unless you're doing something that requires an especially in-depth understanding of cryptography, I don't get why "blockchain development" would be a distinct thing.

[lapis wind]

I swear it's just a generic term now, I've seen it labelled as any of the following:

• Smart contract writing
• frontend writing like solana I think it was
• actually writing the Blockchain protocol itself
• other crypto related things

[peak halo]

what's "smart contract writing"?

[lapis wind]

It feels like it's become a very generic term just to lump together crypto jobs

[lapis wind]

The basic gist is essentially writing state machines, in order to achieve things on a lot of systems you essentially define state machines called smart contracts for idk what reason saying "once X is done do this"

Normally it's in some niche script language although it can be done in some languages like rust though it's a bit weird from what I've seen

[maiden fog]

I found a very weird behavior in python anyone wanna do a sanity check for me? It is a simple timed for loop that seems like there is a variable left in memory between executions of the script

[peak halo]

this channel is for career discussion/advice; see #1035199133436354600. and be sure to give enough information that people can start helping without any follow-up questions.

[peak halo]

I guess that is a domain-specific skill.

[round nexus]

Hello everyone, I want to discuss a problem I'm having regarding programming in general. I don't personally feel that good about AI and it's advancements, I don't want it to pretty much end up like AI Art so is AI an actual threat to programmers, I don't want to regret my time learning to program(I'm a beginner btw)

Should I continue practicing and learning to code?

[peak halo]

#career-advice message

[maiden fog]

my bad I thought I was in general XD

[round nexus]

Thanks for clarifying my issue, I believe I should continue with learning to program but I might shift my Career from game making to AI.

[peak halo]

AI is more about advanced math and theoretical stuff than it is practical programming ability. so even with years of development experience, one can't simply shift to AI without lots of additional education/training.

[balmy spade]

You should follow your passion, for sure.

I don't want it to pretty much end up like AI Art
Not sure what you mean by this either. AI Art isn't having the best of times with application in the industry yet. Sure you can use it, but as of right now you can't copywrite it. :3

[round nexus]

Well I'm actually a med student, but Im also learning programming to create my own video games, it's just this whole AI stuff kinda overwhelmed me a bit

[peak halo]

how far along are you in med school? because switching directions at this point is probably not worth it.

[round nexus]

I'm not gonna leave med school of course, I'm in my second year and the semester has ended and we got a 2 months break so I'm learning some skills including programming

Im learning programming because I kinda wanted to make a video game

[dark fiber]

i didnt pass maths couple years back and so instead of doing computer science like i wanted, i had to take games development

what kinda games u wanna make

[shut onyx]

hey im a highschool student figuring out my next move what are some career paths for codign/python

ive been doing some data science on the side

[peak halo]

if you're in high school and you want a career in coding/python, you should focus on doing well in school, taking the most advanced math courses that you can, and apply to CS programs for college.

[shut onyx]

ok

thanks

[weary sage]

Whao... been reading conversations up here and i guess i have to kick my ass of twitter. There's no real value being transferred there. btw, finding some great server to sit on everyday is so underrated

[dark fiber]

how necessary are college degrees in this field

[peak halo]

Virtually required.

[dark fiber]

hm, i see

[peak halo]

Sorry, I thought you were only asking about AI

So, I'll make a slightly softer statement: degrees are very often required

[dark fiber]

yeahh i do not wanna go to college but apprenticeships offer a degree as well as a job at the end, so i may go for that

[peak halo]

And if you don't have professional experience, getting a degree is going to be more straightforward than any other path you can think of.

[peak halo]

I would encourage you to rethink your aversion to college.

[dark fiber]

Well, i would love to go to college and learn but getting into college debt and stuff doesnt sound very appealing

[balmy spade]

There are many viable ways to reduce or even cover the costs.

[peak halo]

Computer science degree holders don't have issues paying off their student loans. I made more than the sum of all my loans in my first year, post tax.

(and my position has a degree has a hard requirement.)

[dark fiber]

thats very very appealing, thank you for talking

[peak halo]

@dark fiber the real risk with starting a CS degree program is that you might not finish, in which case you've taken on debt without getting what you need to pay it off

[dark fiber]

no i will definitely stay true to the course as ive always had a passion for study

my only issue is UCAS points

[mortal wedge]

No

[vapid jay]

What do you mean by 'vast expertise'?

[dark fiber]

i just messaged him, its a trading scam

[dense ibex]

No it's not

[mortal wedge]

!rule 6 9

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[vapid jay]

I see you everywhere

[dark fiber]

!rule 3 4

[inner wren]

Rules

3. Respect staff members and listen to their instructions.

4. Use English to the best of your ability. Be polite if someone speaks English imperfectly.

[dense ibex]

My bad

[dark fiber]

huh thats so cool

[mortal wedge]

I am not sure why they made rules 6 and 9 go so well together, lol. But it's handy.

[rotund orchid]

Will I be at a disadvantage in terms of programming skill if I start at a later age of 17. Since the people who want to do cs in my hs have been coding since freshman year of high school and know data structures and algorithms. I really want to get an internship freshman year of college, but I am afraid that I won't be competitive against olympiad winners and people how have created neural networks.

[dense ibex]

It's not a scam by the way, I need help Building a trading bot

[vapid jay]

Hello are you a chatbot or just a bot?

[dark fiber]

exact problem

[vapid jay]

I mean AI ChatBOT

[near ocean]

Didnt you just ask about this

[rotund orchid]

guess we just have to work harder

[vapid jay]

Are you of 17?

[rotund orchid]

i'm a highschool senior

[vapid jay]

Man, you are still asking whether you're in appropriate age to learn coding.

Just go and learn it. Don't waste your time asking such questions

People learn coding in their 40s also. Some in their 60s aswell

[mortal wedge]

Agreed. Don't worry about what other people are doing. There will always be people ahead of you (and behind you). Make the best choices for your own life and happiness.

[dark fiber]

just important that we keep consistent

[balmy spade]

You should look at it this way; If, for whatever reason, you start to learn a new skill later in your life then you're going to be just that much better at learning new skills already.

[somber musk]

we

[somber quartz]

what’s the most important thing to study as a person who is trying to teach themselves code? i’m currently doing a course that’s like 80 hours long, but I also want to start reading a textbook in conjunction. i just don’t know what i should be studying, if that makes any sense

[weary sage]

Where can some work as an automation engineer with python? and anyone with great online resources from zero for this apart from coursera

[vapid jay]

what is a good fist job as a programmer?

[near ocean]

Open ended vague questions like these ones probably wont get many quality answers
Can you narrow down the question in scope?

[true harness]

yes, you'll be at a disadvantage

[weary sage]

there are three questions currently lined up here. makes sense if you use the reply function

[near ocean]

It applies to all of them

[weary sage]

I see 👀

[median flare]

wsg

[mortal wedge]

Are you looking for a deeper understanding to become a strong developer? Looking for the basics to become a code monkey? Are you trying to get a job?

If you're planning on doing a deeper dive, I suggest starting with the basics of Python (most common data structures and loops) then go to a more general data structure and algorithm course. Then after that, diving into whatever domain you're looking to pursue a career in, if that's your goal.

[mortal wedge]

This is broad af. A good first job is one that pays decently and is interesting to you.

[somber quartz]

i don’t want to be a code monkey. id prefer a better understanding of the fundamentals because i actually want a job one day

[near ocean]

If a career is the goal have you considered university?

[shadow hornet]

Do both and write stuff down. You're doing a good job if you're supplementing the course with other stuff as well

[somber quartz]

what should the topic of my research though?

[shadow hornet]

Python fundamentals like basic syntax

Also you should have an IDE open to write code and practice alongside the course

More important than anything else is doing and not just watching

[stark charm]

there is a good book https://automatetheboringstuff.com/

[dreamy spade]

i have been looking into the role of being an Email Developer. Who usually comes up with the design of the email development? The Email Developer or the stake holder?

[spark cobalt]

JavaScript, next time ask in off topic or something

[blissful crystal]

Hello, world! I am so glad to be a member of this server. I just want to ask some questions to my fellow python programmers on this platform.

I am currently a junior-year computer engineering student at a university here in Nepal. I have always loved python and it has been my go-to language since my high school days.

I have my hands dirty in the domains like machine learning, deep learning, and Web development (basically Django, flask, and fast API). I have also done some system and automation work. I might have a few academic papers published this year on computer vision and some system-related work and I feel like I am at the intermediate level in this python journey.

Now, I just feel lost. There are not many good internship opportunities here in my country and I don't have much experience in opensource contribution.

Has anyone been through this situation here? If so, How can I overcome this issue and what are my steps ahead this?

It's not that I haven't done enough side projects or anything. I know there's always soo much to learn and the learning never stops.

I just feel lost at this moment of my programming journey.

Your insights to this would really help.

[full zodiac]

You finished it?

[ruby mural]

hey guys, I'm interested in learning django. which course should I choose?
https://www.udemy.com/course/python-django-the-practical-guide/, https://www.udemy.com/course/python-and-django-full-stack-web-developer-bootcamp/ or https://www.udemy.com/course/django-and-python-full-stack-developer-masterclass/ ??

[crude moon]

do you know any other web frameworks / HTML / JS ?

[round nexus]

Something like Stardew valley

[spark cobalt]

I read William Vincent's books for Django.

[ruby mural]

No. This is my first framework. I've worked with HTML and CSS so revision will be sufficient. I've got no clue on JS though.

[ruby mural]

But isn't book more about theory? I'm fine with theory but I need tutorials. Does he update his books?

[ebon summit]

book will be easier to reference back to, also humans can read a lot faster than listen

[spark cobalt]

No not necessarily. You make it sound like you're in tutorial hell

[spark cobalt]

In general I like books for following reasons:

• As Bossk said, reading is much faster than watching a course. Finding where you need to read, or referencing back to pages in books is much more efficient. It acts like a more beginner friendly documentation.
• Books, way more than courses, are created by people typically with decades of experience in related technologies, and books are reviewed by dozens of people with the same experience. The knowledge in books are vetted much more heavily than courses.
• This leads to books talking about better design patterns/project structures, with many books discussing different ways to build apps to fit your needs, what you should avoid, what you should try, etc. (In courses, typically you get only 1 perspective of a framework, and that's by someone with very limited experience in the field. I would always try to vet the course creator, there are more than you think that have limited experience in the field.)
• Books generally explain first, then code. Courses generally code first, then explain (for example, you'll see that books generally have a huge section at the front explaining the framework, while courses don't get nearly in depth) . It is crucial imo to understand every code you write before you write it. Courses, at least more than books, can force you into a tutorial hell where you are able to copy without having a full end to end logic of how an application works.

TLDR: Books have more packed knowledge, generally more vetted knowledge, and give you a deeper understanding of a framework, typically way more than a course can.

[spark cobalt]

Django is an okay first framework. Though the UI portion of Django is not really realistic and I haven't really seen anyone use it in the industry (it's bad and doesn't have the same flexibility as using Django's rest_framework and then connecting it to something like React.)

Maybe more realistic to do DRF and then test your backend with things like POSTMAN or something. Then you can extend it to somewhere else if you want. Learning how to create and use APIs is very very powerful. (Doesn't have to be a frontend, can be a small Python script to play around with your DRF, just the point is doing it within a separate application.)

It's a lot of batteries included that can confuse you at first. And honestly, this is even more reason to pick up a book than a course. A book will walk you through to get comfortable with your environment. Especially William Vincent's.

Also William Vincent's series has a book for making APIs with Django. Many other courses don't get to this point.

Yeah all 3 courses you sent doesn't talk about DRF, which is what Django's more often used for.

And to vet the people of the courses:
The first one (Maximilian Schwarzmüller): 0 professional experience as a developer. Only thing related to development is making courses.
The second and third one (Jose Portilla): 0 professional experience as a developer. Only thing related to development is making courses.

Personally, would never want to learn anything from these guys. They may be great teachers, but they don't have any sort of experience to back up their claims.

Their LinkedIns:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/maximilian-schwarzmueller/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmportilla/

So your answer is, none of these courses.

For William S Vincent however, he's part of the developing team of Django, and has been actively working on it for over 8 years. His books very vetted within the Django community and often recommended first.

[ruby mural]

I haven't even started. I'm just thinking about buying one of these courses. I'm not really interested in front end and I've got no interest in Java or JS as backend. That only leaves me with python. What should I do?

[fast mirage]

For more of a beginner-level understanding of (basically any language), you can run through tutorials online. If you're interested in a more in-depth understanding of the language, that's when you should pick up a book or two on the subject. I would advise against immediately trying to get into nitty details with it until you have an understanding of what it is, basics on how to use it, and if it even applies/is the best solution to your query.

[spark cobalt]

I've already explained further down from that message.

[spark cobalt]

I disagree. Books generally don't immediately go into the nitty gritty, but it gives you a much better eagle eye view of what the framework is, what demand it meets, what it can and should be used for etc. Tutorials online generally never even pass this step.

[fast mirage]

Not sure what tutorials you're watching, but sounds like you were exposed to some pretty crappy ones to have that take.

[spark cobalt]

In an actual professional environment, it makes more sense to learn from the actual developers of the framework, not a content creator that has not only very limited professional experience, but limited experience with a given framework.

[spark cobalt]

I'm not saying tutorials are absolutely bad. They're just incredibly inefficient and takes multiple amount of times to gain any sort of fluency within a framework.

[fast mirage]

I'm pretty sure their query isn't about learning the language for a professional environment. They likely don't have those resources. That's what I'm assuming anyway.

[spark cobalt]

The books are able to be found online.

[ruby mural]

I've read books(not on frameworks) and they're pretty good but you're talking as if courses are all shit. And about the experience, yeah it's good that you can learn from the developer itself(if available) but it's not that he's the only one who can teach.

[gusty gazelle]

Hello

[spark cobalt]

For a beginner, I would avoid learning from people with 0 professional experience, like the ones that authored the 3 courses you sent. You have no clue if what practices they're using are good or not, because you don't have the experience to tell otherwise.

(And funnily enough, they probably don't have the experience to tell otherwise either)

The fact that all 3 courses didn't even touch Django rest_framework, much less never mention it is already a red flag. As they're completely avoiding Django's prime usage.

[ruby mural]

Btw, I do appreciate your suggestions and will look into the book. It's just that I don't really have a lot of time. I need to make a few projects and apply for an internships. I want to learn development but I'm fine if I'm not the best at it. I'm doing development just because there are no opportunities for what I want to do as fresher in my country and I'll switch later after a year or two. :)

[spark cobalt]

I would try to get used to text based stuff. Documentation is all text based, and in general reading WPM is significantly faster than listening WPM.

[fast mirage]

How different is Django from Angular?

[spark cobalt]

I never used Angular. Also they're used for completely different things afaik.

Django's more for creating API endpoints to your database, Angular is full stack framework? I don't know much about Angular though tbh.

[fast mirage]

ah, Angular is more frontend than anything

[spark cobalt]

Yeah Django more backend. The frontend support in Django is horrid, and honestly I'd just try to avoid it especially if you're crammed for time.

[ruby mural]

I'm into backend

[spark cobalt]

I don't know given your education and location how much a Django backend project can impress on employers. Since it does abstract a lot of the work...

For example, you don't ever have to write a single line of SQL or even have a deep understanding of SQL for Django. Since everything's wrapped with an ORM

[fast mirage]

Doesn't really matter if it does a lot of the work, if it's the thing that employers are looking for tbh. (That is, if an employer is looking for sql experience alongside django, they will say so). It's best not to try to learn multiple things like this in depth at the same time.

[ruby mural]

So what should I learn if I'm looking for backend role or SDE roles(I don't know if they're the same)? Anything related to python would be preferable

[spark cobalt]

I mean if it is a lot of work. The issue is if you build a Django app, you're not impressing on a lot of things or displaying fluency with certain things that Django just does behind the scenes.

I'm speculating btw. I don't fully know the answer to this.

[ruby mural]

Btw, I'm fine with SQL. I'll just have to brush up

[spark cobalt]

Are you self taught? Have a CS degree? Or another degree?

[ruby mural]

I'll be completing my electronics degree

[spark cobalt]

But you're switching to software? Electrical Engineerng I'm assuming?

[fast mirage]

is that EE?

[ruby mural]

Engineering in electronics and telecommunication. They do reach us coding and stuff

[spark cobalt]

Oh, then you should be fine. Your degree will pull a lot of your weight.

I do think though that there is some value in terms of having some application on the side that actually utilizes your REST API that you make with Django. Maybe a Discord bot or something. You'll more likely be using APIs, not creating them.

[fast mirage]

(or literally anything that works, is kinda neat, and is posted to a github and/or is visible on a website of some sort)

[spark cobalt]

After all, if you're making an API someone plan to use, you'll learn a lot about how to make better, more robust/organized APIs by actually using it and seeing where things can be improved.

[ruby mural]

OK so what if I want to learn only the backend part? No front end at all. Is django fine?

[fast mirage]

Seems fine to me for web app backend. Node.js is another popular one. (Express.js is the RESTful version)

[spark cobalt]

I honestly don't know. If your only display of backend knowledge is through Django, it would raise a red flag in my brain because I know Django does so much of the things under the hood away from the developer. But idk how many developers know enough about Django to have that red flag raised.

It's worth doing backend stuff that is generally used by companies. Whether that's a different language like Go, node, or something. Look into your local area and see what backend language is used often.

Also you'd likely want to learn a bit of cloud stuff.

People not only want display of backend knowledge, but ideally backend knowledge using the stack they use. And I just don't know if Django is used that often :/

[gusty gazelle]

hello

[fast mirage]

While generally I agree with the "look into what local people are using", I stick more along the mindset of, once you know one pretty well - you will have a generally good understanding of how to use pretty much anything else that is similar with few exceptions.

[gusty gazelle]

How do you feel my friends

[spark cobalt]

Yeah definitely. I just don't know if that extends to Django as well, because Django abstracts so much of the knowledge you need.

[fast mirage]

It's a good starting point it nothing else. Hi Billy

[spark cobalt]

I guess :/

Just especially because it may sound like this guy's partly in tutorial hell, he could also gain absolutely nothing (that's extendable elsewhere) from doing Django. Hard to give case by case advice

[quaint lily]

Hi, im currently in secondary school, about do do GCSEs and i plan on takjng cs for a level as well as maths, but im currently debating whether or not i should aim for an apprenticeship somehwere or go to uni after a levels, i know ive got a long time to decide, but i could potentially save myself some stress in the future, so what do you think? In the uk if that matters, thanks

[gusty gazelle]

ok my friend

how about talking about cats my friends

[quaint lily]

Im allergic

[fast mirage]

Not sure how things work in the UK, but in the US it is typically far more attractive to have a degree/advanced degree in comp sci or similar to get into a professional position

[gusty gazelle]

They are very cute

[near ocean]

This is for career related topics, cat talk goes in #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

[quaint lily]

Ah, i see, would it still be wise to tru an apprenticeship after uni, or with a degree should i just try for jobs right away?

[gusty gazelle]

it's a pity

[spark cobalt]

You've been warned already to go to ot in #python-discussion. Go there.

[ruby mural]

Btw, what do you think would be solid for backend? I mean I haven't started yet so... Tell me the entire stack

[near ocean]

With a degree of 2:1 and above you should be going straight into the industry with no issue

[quaint lily]

Oh, alright, thanks for the help!

[fast mirage]

How I did it, I went into an internship while I was still in school (as a junior undergrad). This is probably one of the best ways to do it.

[gusty gazelle]

ok my friend

[spark cobalt]

Whatever stack is most in demand in your area and will unlock most opportunities.

[near ocean]

Yea you want to do a couple internships while in uni, will put you ahead of others

[weary sage]

What is the best/better usecase of python for E.E majors

[ruby mural]

I'm not really interested in EE. I'm interested in hardware but that's just a hobby.

[fast mirage]

Depends on what you wanna do. I know that it can be used to assist in operating stuff like an RPi, but my knowledge there is pretty limited.

[weary sage]

hmm.... most EE major advised to learn matlab... it's a dead lang btw,.....

[near ocean]

Why do you think so?

[weary sage]

but python is great.... but just looking how to merge that with my E.E career. btw... i'm still in year 2

[weary sage]

no one talks about it.. limited community..

was tryna do Medium line transmission and abcd parameters on matlab, i got stuck because i've never learnt it until i had to use... i couldn't get help anyway

what i get from people is i don't program in matlab.

[near ocean]

Matlab is far from dead
Anyway, you could use numpy in python to do pretty much the same things

[weary sage]

do you program in matlab?

[near ocean]

No, but im not an engineer

Engineer friends do use matlab

[brittle thorn]

Used to

[brittle thorn]

Can relate

Not dead yet because profs love it

[weary sage]

maybe not dead... but limited community is close to dead

newer generation demotivated to learn it... so eventually

[brittle thorn]

Yes compared to Numpy or Julia

[near ocean]

Not even close to dead, the community is smaller because its harder to get access to it, it costs money

Julia definitely has a smaller community than matlab

[weary sage]

isn't that a library in py

[brittle thorn]

But growing

[near ocean]

No

[brittle thorn]

A math/ science oriented language check Julia

[weary sage]

yeah... i see that i have to pay to have access.. i was wondering why it is like that.

[brittle thorn]

Shooting themselves in foot

[weary sage]

haven't heard of julia

[near ocean]

Its a product like anything else thats targeted to engineers

[weary sage]

just wait until py have more effective library to do the same task

[brittle thorn]

Probably there in most cases

[near ocean]

You can use python with matlab or you could just use numpy

[weary sage]

numpy mostly for math work

i'll get better in numpy then

[brittle thorn]

I wasn't too happy when a prof said do it in Matlab after I submitted a working Numpy script lmao

[weary sage]

actually it was a reverse case here, cause my prof told me to rewrite a matlab program in python...

[fallow tiger]

Just as an anecdote Matlab is widely used in Neural Signal Processing class in my uni where the professor is from EE.

[brittle thorn]

That's better imho

[brittle thorn]

This is progress

[weary sage]

at first couldn't understand matrix in matlab

[fallow tiger]

I think people will also like Julia for the same type of work, it is kinda the hybrid of Matlab and Python.

[brittle thorn]

Yes

[weary sage]

who teaches that?

[brittle thorn]

A few progressive profs here and there ... some are in the Julia Discord

[weary sage]

numpy is great... was able to translate a bulky matlab program to py in clear step..

import numpy as np
import cmath

# prompt user to enter values for resistance, reactance, receiving end voltage, real load power, and power factor
R = float(input('the value of resistance of the line in ohmn = '))
X = float(input('the value of reactance of the line in ohmn = '))
VRph = float(input('Enter the value of receiving end voltage in phase kV = '))
PR = float(input('the real load power at the receiving end in MW = '))
PFrc = float(input('the Power factor of the receiving end = '))

# calculate impedance of transmission line as complex number
Z = R + 1j*X

# calculate ABCD matrix
ABCD = np.array([[1, Z], [0, 1]])

# calculate receiving end current
IR = PR/(VRph*PFrc)

# calculate sending end power factor
PFrs = cmath.sqrt(1-(PFrc**2))
IR1 = IR*(PFrc - 1j*PFrs)
VS1 = VR + (IR1*Z)
VS = abs(VS1)

# calculate percentage transmission line efficiency
Eff = (PR/(PR + (IR**2)*R))*100

# print results
print(f'\n Sending Voltage = {VS}')
print(f'\n Sending Current = {abs(IR)}')
print(f'\n Sending end power factor = {(VRph*PFrs + IR*X)/(VRph*PFrc + IR*R)}')
print(f'\n percentage transmission line efficiency = {Eff}')
print(f'\n ABCD parameters of the transmission line = {ABCD}')
print(f'\n receiving end current of the transmission line = {IR}')

[brittle thorn]

Yep it is

[weary sage]

isn't this suppose to be a python server?

who uses py for frontend

[peak plaza]

i discussed abt front end here too

[spark cobalt]

Career channel isn't specific to Python careers.

[weary sage]

didn't miss this

[peak plaza]

i am not looking for jobs rn just want to talk w someone abt work experience in that scenario

asia local work environment so stressed out

[spark cobalt]

That never says this channel is specific to Python careers. But just pointing to some links for specifically Python roles.

[weary sage]

my bad

[spark cobalt]

Most roles use multiple languages lol. Restriction to just Python roles is kind of irrational. Purely Python roles that don't use anything else are in an extreme minority of roles.

[pseudo pond]

Hello, usually what would you need to look for mid level python developer? my last job was on a startup company and I just did a raspberry pi automation as well as serverless with AWS Lambda. I was thinking what skills do I still need to have? Also I was just a self taught in python too

[buoyant seal]

Code architecture (+unit testing) and SQL database proficiency is my minimum expectations for mid backend Dev. Git obviously. Docker is probably minimum too today.
It would be highly preferable for person knowing other basic stuff too. Encryption, networking stuff I guess. More junior stuff though
Linux proficiency

Some extra fluff on top is good to have. From more advanced topics:
AWS is really nice
Working with Elastic Search/some kind of Message Queue (redis/RabbitMQ/AWS SQS) and event streaming systems
At least something out of it

[pseudo pond]

I did some sql with mysql/postgres/sqlite and some nosql with AWS Dynamodb.

For the git, Would it hurt me that I mostly know doing the normal stuff (pushing, pulling, creating pull request and merging it via github) but I haven't done much when complicated merging since I did git as a solo dev.

I know some of the commands for the linux due to using raspberry pi and currently developing with WSL

I haven't done much with the unit testing and for the Code Architecture I mostly group the functions together for their respective directories

[buoyant seal]

https://deepsource.io/blog/git-best-practices/
Git best practices. Just 6.

https://learngitbranching.js.org/
Fun interactive game to learn Git. For middle

https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2
Ultimate book to learn the rest

Learn at least fully up to interactive guide

[buoyant seal]

Code architecture... Yeah. That is biggest and most important topic u need to work upon.

My map
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg

Start with
Code Complete by McConnel
Then I guess to Unit testing best principles and practices by Khorikov
Then TDD Kent Beck

Then move to Design Patterns Head First
Clean architecture by Robert Martin
Refactoring by Martin Fowler
And read about Porto Architecture for fun

The rest of path u will find on your own
All those books recommend a ton of others anyway during their reading

May be add somewhere something for OOP in the beginning. I don't know for sure what to recommend for this

[pseudo pond]

thank you very much! btw, I also haven't used Docker too. If you got any recommendations for this too

[pseudo pond]

thank you!

[buoyant seal]

Technically, from git, all u need is knowing up to how to solve merge conflicts on your own, the rest is just nice fluff to know

And may be git rebase interactive is too important to miss

Still better to learn fully though

More important to learn philosophy of atomic commits

[pseudo pond]

I think for that one, I mostly used the on the github pull request to solved my merge issues

[buoyant seal]

It will be nice if u learned atomic commits, git conventional commits. It would structure your work more.
Not necessary. Just for fun an d having more professionalism to your workflow

I made for fun tool that automates this stuff and helps to learn by visually seeing generated changelogs between releasees
https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_autogit/blob/master/README.md

Don't concentrate on it though too much. Code architecture is way more important to cover. Git perversions are more esoteric stuff xD

If u would just follow committing dozens times per day, that is already good to me. Commit often. Not once per day or week

[pseudo pond]

thanks for the advice, for the git I did commit more often once a specific function did workout as I intended

[buoyant seal]

Once u learn unit testing u will see that committing can be done every time u added or fixed some unit test

[buoyant seal]

U would need to become familiar with classes, composition, inheritance.

For Python specific stuff, I will add decorators and context managers creation

with custom_manager() as cursor:
  cursor.execute("123")

Getting feeling to define necessary amount of public interface to something
And having code testing architecture, with easy to replace with mocks

[pseudo pond]

I personally, haven't really created any decorators and context managers. My experience is only using that

[buoyant seal]

They are useful from time to time. Especially custom context managers. Super method to DRY some code that opens and closes some kind of connections

[raw sable]

light mode...

[pseudo pond]

What do they create with custom context managers, because I mostly use it for the async networking, the opening of files and some database stuff

[vapid jay]

help

my code

[balmy mural]

Wrong channel, look at #❓｜how-to-get-help

[vapid jay]

ok

[glass hare]

Is there a more dedicated server for this? I recall there being a career advice discord suited toward comp sci

[spark cobalt]

CS Career Hub?

[vapid jay]

hello someone can help me for a python code please ?

[near ocean]

Not here, #python-discussion #1035199133436354600

[sage agate]

about python i know loops, ifs, lists, datatypes, all the basics that exist in every language and little bit of tkinter i would want someone to tell me "go learn using sql with python, learn these libraries: libraries i need to know" and then i go and learn it. For example if you have a job you can tell me library you commonly use and i need to learn and i know the answer may be "it depends" but if i will think to long what should i chose i won't chose anything

[spark cobalt]

It really just depends what kind of development you want to do. But a good place to start is: https://roadmap.sh/

[sage agate]

if i learn what's shown on the tree how much more will i have to learn to get a job

[near ocean]

You cant possibly learn everything on the tree and you dont even need all of it to get a job
Whats going to be the most helpful is a degree

[spark cobalt]

You have to display what you learned in something like a project, where you'll learn a lot more things while working on it. And yeah you don't need everything on it to get a job.

Degree's the most reliable way to get in and for stability throughout your career.

[shell orchid]

I think a portfolio is way more important than a degree

So create stuff, that way you I'll build experience and horne ur skills as well.

[spark cobalt]

A degree adds a lot to the portfolio is the point. Who isn't to say college grads have portfolios as well? An employer would be much more incentivized to hire someone with a degree and a portfolio than someone with a portfolio and without a degree.

I do agree that a portfolio is definitely a must, or some display of skill/knowledge. But that doesn't completely nullify a degree.

[shell orchid]

I never said a degree doesn't help. It's just not as important as a portfolio imo.

[random marsh]

is S+ a good certificate for the IT area?

[lapis wind]

What is "S+"

[random marsh]

Comptia S+ is a certificate by CompTIA

S is for security

[lapis wind]

In general 99% of certificates these companies sell are worthless

[balmy mural]

A few people who studied with me got jobs without too much trouble with no or barely any portfolio. No degree on the other hand has much more trouble just getting to an interview

[spark cobalt]

Can vouch for the non degree part. It was a bitch to land interviews. Even if you have a portfolio, you generally pose to be more risky than a college grad. Your projects could've been copied somewhere, but the degree can't.

And on the employers side, they know what to expect from a new grad. They don't know what to expect from self taught with no degree.

[balmy mural]

Yea, a degree shows you managed to pass a minimum set of requirements to show that you're competent enough to at least learn new topics. No one looks at your portfolio before you get to an interview, and even then, based on my own interviews, none of the people I interviewed with looked at the projects either. They asked me about them, what they did, what technologies I used, what issues I faced, any issues I'm still facing, etc.

[smoky quest]

degrees matter a lot more than a portfolio, especially for your first job.
The bar to a portfolio will be higher without a degree and you would be less likely to be looked at. Furthermore, people with degrees do also have portfolio already as well

[smoky quest]

If you are in high school or college age, aiming for a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[fringe pine]

@vapid jay This isn't a place to post memes. Thanks.

[velvet rock]

heyanyone here to help? i got the latest undethected chromedriver but the project still dont run its a updated tiktok auto uploader DM me if you a good guy and wanna hellp me out THX!

[pine sleet]

!rule 5

[inner wren]

Rules

5. Do not provide or request help on projects that may break laws, breach terms of services, or are malicious or inappropriate.

[peak halo]

this isn't a help channel. but even if it were, you can't get help uploading stuff to TikTok unless there's a specific API for that. DM @severe widget if you have any questions about that.

[fathom wraith]

Can u become a millionaire by programming

[smoky quest]

some people like bill gates and mark zuckerberg did

[pine sleet]

i think i've heard of them before once or twice

don't really remember exactly who they are though
must be pretty successful people

[vapid jay]

are there any people from the field of law(lawyers, judicial officers etc) here who use python for some of their work? i am interested in knowing why and for what do you use python in your work

[spark cobalt]

My dad's a lawyer, but the only programming he did was making a website for his firm. Just static vanilla HTML and CSS. Don't think he used any JS.

There's perhaps an untouched market for using Python to automate some of the work in law. At least I know my dad doesn't use any of those technologies, but it's been my mom doing 99% of the work so idk.

[vapid jay]

Actually, I am a law student myself, but my hobbies include CS stuff and I was wondering how can I use the skills I learn only as mere hobbies for something useful in my career.

[spark cobalt]

I know some parts of being a patent lawyer can be automated. I don't know if it's already done though and idk about other fields.

[spark cobalt]

Making a website, automating parts of your work here and there (whether it's in making documents, finding certain information, automated emails, etc.)

[smoky quest]

Here is a concrete example: https://docassemble.org/

not your every day lawyer though

[spark cobalt]

Also having a better way to store information than using spreadsheets.