career-advice

[sleek egret]

That's why people aren't being replaced by copilot. because they don't know what they even want to write. so copilot (or chat-GPT) can't help.

[summer roost]

So when you said above:

But doesn’t gpt break down basic English very well? I think that’s why there’s concern. Because it DOES understand the “hard part”.

You can see that it doesn't really understand the hard part. This is a problem that designed for humans to be able to solve relatively easily - it's a fairly basic programming problem, expressed in sufficient detail for everyone to understand the problem. And ChatGPT doesn't do a good job with it at all - though it does do a pretty good job with a subset of the problem that it recognizes from its training corpus (a basic RPS game)

[sleek egret]

you can see this in action in the #python-discussion channel as people ask those super vague questions. they literally don't know what they want.

[summer roost]

one other interesting thing to contemplate about this prompt: it takes far more English to explain the problem than it takes Python code to demonstrate a solution to the problem.

[sleek egret]

indeed

but that's mostly because there's no shared context

[summer roost]

I'm not sure that's true - again, this wasn't a problem written for ChatGPT, this was a problem written to be solved by humans. There certainly is shared context embedded in the prompt - the idea of games being played in multiple rounds, games having winners and losers, the concept of a zero-sum game where one player wins if and only if another player loses, a "draw" outcome where neither player wins or loses, etc

[shy jetty]

Tbf… I know very few Python verbs. I’m trying to learn them all but it can be difficult to iterate to people who have attributed those terms to specific things.

And despite being a native English speaker, my English is terrible 😂😂

[summer roost]

it's worth paying attention to the words someone uses when explaining your problem back to you or walking through the solution, and making note of them for next time, to help you explain your next problem more clearly from the start.

strong written communication skills are a super power for devs.

[sleek egret]

Has nothing to do with "python verbs"

[shy jetty]

I’m getting better about it. I’ve made flash cards for a bunch of verbs and nouns. It’s been very helpful in fully comprehending my course.

[sleek egret]

most people are not used to clear, precise, unambiguous communication. they are, in fact, often annoyed by it. but software dev does not deal well with ambiguity.

[summer roost]

clear, precise, unambiguous communication reads as legalese to most people, in fact.

[balmy spade]

Sure we do. There's ambiguity throughout the development process. It takes those strong communication skills that godly mentions to overcome that.

[true harness]

there's a reason why you say "there are some apples" instead of ∃apples

[summer roost]

I think you're both in agreement, really - I'd say that the job of a software developer involves a lot of coaxing informal English descriptions of a problem into precise unambiguous descriptions

[balmy spade]

Sounds about right to me.

[sleek egret]

indeed. and the best software devs know the problem domain deeply so don't have to ask for much clarification

[balmy spade]

The mentors I listen to ask for clarification upfront and then repeatedly until it is clear. That's one of the things I continue to learn here from others.

[summer roost]

There's an old joke - a parent says to their programmer kid "go to the grocery store and buy a gallon of milk. If they have eggs, buy a dozen." The kid comes back with 12 gallons of milk. The parent asks why: "because they had eggs!"

[summer roost]

another tip: if what they're asking for isn't possible (or is extremely difficult), suggest alternatives. The people setting the requirements are often happy with close-enough - if you can suggest a solution that takes 10% the effort and does 90% of what they wanted, they may be happy enough with that.

[shut copper]

Evening, I had an appointment with codingacademy.io today to discuss the bootcamp

The bootcamp had a remote online version, no tuition or deposit until I get a job that pays over $40,000. But apparently they don’t allow New Yorkers into this program because they have a campus in New York… so it’s only full-time on-site and they said I’d have to quit my job ($60,000 salary I worked hard to get here)

(Sorry to interject if another conversation is going on) … just wanted to know if anyone knew any other alternatives for software dev jobs?

[balmy spade]

Yes, this is very helpful. I've learned over the last year that if the definitions of the project aren't already defined that leading with MVP options keeps things moving. More often than not, in that situation, the folks at the table are hesitant to bring up what they want. So offer that low-lift solution, deliver fast, and iterate forward. It's what would happen anyway, just without the rewrite. heh.

[balmy spade]

Anything that said you have to quit your job as a condition for maybe getting another one is a bit of a red flag to me.

[shut copper]

I think they thought it was a cool niche to say because they’re so confident in their program and assume every coder is working some dead-end job but I’m a pharmacy coordinator at a well-known hospital so it was cringey to me. I’ve taken an interest in coding but have a well-established career—just don’t want to work any harder than I do for more when the base pay is usually what I worked so hard for

[balmy spade]

Which feels silly to me that I've re-learned this. It's the same tactic I used in retail for decades. Different application, same approach.

[shut copper]

Not that I’m ungrateful but I can’t give that up so easily

[sleek egret]

I agree, the place you talked to is a scam.

[shut copper]

My friend who is a software dev had a friend who dropped out of college after learning some essentials and took a coding bootcamp and makes way more than I do at his first job. I love python even though I have no formal education in it and would love to learn more regardless but I must say the job opportunities seem really nice.

I don’t want to be at my desk job for another 30 years until I retire when I don’t really have an interest in it and making ends meet

[sleek egret]

There are literally hundreds of online coding "bootcamps" that train people in programming. Use one of those to work around your schedule

[shut copper]

Just not sure which ones are legit and worth it, I would need part-time remote in New York since I’ll be working 9-6 weekdays

I guess I’ll keep researching, I have another “admissions appointment” and I saw one that has applications for March 2023

[sleek egret]

6pm NY time is 2pm LA time. think about that

[summer roost]

3, not 2.

[sleek egret]

ok fine, 3pm . be that way

[shut copper]

Lol

I see… should I take a look at any resources while my search continues to reaffirm whatever skills with python I do have? Someone told me leetcode is something you review for job interviews but not for learning purposes

Any decent apps maybe? Coding Academy is legit?

[balmy spade]

I usually say that if you do a lot of leetcode, you'll be really good at leecode. It's just a cautionary phrase that there is more development than logic puzzles. At the same time, they get your brain working, can be fun, and you will learn things.

[stray radish]

quick question is a data scientist both a data engineer and data analyst

[shy jetty]

I have a pending job upon the completion of my Python courses for a Pharma WebEx company. What are the things I will need to be extremely confident going into the job?

[smoky quest]

ask them. They will be more than happy to tell you

[delicate bane]

depending on the company, it could be both, either, or neither. specifically it could involve the skills typically associated with those roles. it could also not.

at a more data mature company, you would have all 3 roles (and more)

[stray radish]

but does a data scientist need the skills of both

[delicate bane]

company dependent

[summer roost]

the terms aren't used with any consistency throughout the industry.

[stray radish]

yea but lets say a dev learns both of them are they considered and a data scientist

because I know if the company needs something the data scientist will do it

[summer roost]

again, those job titles aren't really well defined, so it's not very meaningful to ask questions about what someone with one of those job titles would do vs someone with another. It depends on the company.

there can be 3 people, one whose job title is "data analyst", one "data scientist", and one "data engineer", doing exactly the same work at 3 different companies.

[stray radish]

but for a mature company both data engineering and data analyst are needed to become a data scientist

[sleek egret]

most people with "data scientist" just run a few stats on data sets.

[fluid fern]

On the subject of AI, specifically chatgpt

It doesn't have the ability to perform "human thinking" and no it will not be able to code for us in the future, yes it can do snippets but these snippets are similar to githubs copilot and on the suvject of copilot, it gets stuff wrong and sometimes would plagerises codebases that don't have a lisence that allows u to use said codebase

Untill someone makes a program that has the ability to perform "human thinking" it's at best a good tool for something like boilerplate code

By human thinking, I am refering to the ability for an AI to give reasoning as to why it gave such output and is able to update said reasoning if given the ability to do so

[stray radish]

in terms of hardness data scientist is the hardest of the all

[sleek egret]

most of our "analysts" have a PhD in mathematics or finance or something similar. at other companies, "analysts" are people who can barely use excel.

[summer roost]

again, there's absolutely no way to say that, as there's no consistency to how different companies use the terms.

[stray radish]

ok

lastly what are all of the field for programming because I cant find it online

like backend frontend fullstack etc could you please list them

[sleek egret]

no formal divisions exist

this is, IMO, a problem for the profession and industry. but it is the way it is.

[stray radish]

ye but could you tell me the fields pls

[sleek egret]

It would be like if "health care worker" covered everyone from the guys who cleaned bedpans to neurosurgeons. and everyone in between.

[stray radish]

k but what would the fields be

[fluid fern]

impossible, all companies have their own titles

[stray radish]

no like backend, frontend fullstack etc the job titles

[fluid fern]

exactly, they keep making new ones every year

[sleek egret]

those are divisions that web developers tend to use. and thus are meaningless for 80% of programmers

[summer roost]

at the coarsest level, you have backend, frontend, and embedded - where "backend" means it runs on some company's servers, "frontend" means it runs on an end user's computer, and "embedded" means that it runs on something that isn't something you would typically consider to be a computer.

[stray radish]

ok... just saying if you could list the basic ones

[mortal wedge]

They're still good at preparing you for these silly leetcode style programming interview people like to do

[fluid fern]

yeah, and he's asking for them

[balmy spade]

Yeah, those silly things happen.

[fluid fern]

I've just accept it as the norm now when it comes to leetcode questions lol

[stray radish]

is that all

[mortal wedge]

That's why Istill recommend people prepare that way. Had a coding interview today that was a leetcode medium/hard

[sleek egret]

database, network programming, distributed systems, data analytics, embedded systems, real-time systems, OS, frameworks (of various types), compilers, tools, etc, etc

[sleek egret]

I would suggest you not use the term "backend" unless the company is focused on web development

for a company that does development tools, for example, "frontend" means the lexer and parser while "backend" means code generator and optimizer

[mortal wedge]

One of my beefs with the industry is how squishy all the job titles are.

[stray radish]

cuz this is what I mean. These are the ones I know
Frontend
Backend
Full stack
Software Engineering
Data Engineering
Data Analyst
Data Scientist

just wanted to know if there was more then any of this

[white relic]

everyone's frontend is someone else's backend

[fluid fern]

"devops"

[sleek egret]

doesn't everyone?

[delicate bane]

eh i wouldnt go that far. but theres probably a good chunk that do more 'analyst' work. but theres also some that might be deploying containers for inference like what i had to do today.

[sleek egret]

sure, I was being a bit hyperbolic to make a point 🙂

[white relic]

it's an infinite fractal of ever more precise fields

[mortal wedge]

My company has a bunch of data scientists that are assuredly not. Hell, they have a data science department that really doesn't do any data science

[delicate bane]

yeah but there is an issue of the job responsibilities involving analyst work. especially if you arent a fan of it like me lol

[stray radish]

pls tell me if there any extra pls... idc if it doesnt make sense

[sleek egret]

Those titles/areas cover maybe 20% of the work out there

[fluid fern]

could be worse, company over here has devops engineer performing fullstack/operations/UI illustrator

[stray radish]

too complicated just wanted to know if there was extra then the ones I listed

[mortal wedge]

Oof

[sleek egret]

Hey, sometimes it's nice to have variety in your workday

[true harness]

get a job

[white relic]

yes, there are many many more

[mortal wedge]

I was going to say "borrow from your parents" 😄

[sleek egret]

There are literally 100's more

[stray radish]

and??? common

[delicate bane]

i am hoping, along with @ Skyglow, that as the field matures, more job titles will lead to more specific job duties and specializing

[stray radish]

What are the common ones basic

[true harness]

teens can get jobs. just check local laws

[graceful mason]

Hospitality? Part time at a shop?

[mortal wedge]

Chores around the house/neighborhood?
donating blood?

[delicate bane]

bruh now you just need to add ML to that stack lmao

[fluid fern]

variety and pain with HR asking "where product for my print specific page in my pdf"

[sleek egret]

network programming, distributed systems, database, middle-office, financial engineering, bioinformatics, desktop applications, OS utilities, etc. are some additional common ones

[true harness]

a side hustle is a job

[fluid fern]

that's a soon TM, I was selected to perform ML ops

[stray radish]

k

[sleek egret]

Just threaten them that you are going to replace them with a script if they keep bothering you

[mortal wedge]

The problem is that as a teenager you don't have a good way to prove that you're a reliable employee and that you're qualified for a job.

[summer roost]

Everything falls into one (or more) of those 3 - that's what makes them the coarsest divisions you can make. Anything beyond that is finer grained distinctions.

[graceful mason]

Starting a new business isn't fast or easy money

[white relic]

here's a thought: find any university, and look at their undergraduate course catalog in software engineering
every single one of those classes is a whole field with at minimum thousands of people working in it

[stray radish]

what about software engineering

[delicate bane]

real rip for you bruh. 🕯️

ML models like to fail in the weirdest ways in production btw. so fyi in case you treat them like traditional software systems

[sleek egret]

hah, and they don't even cover a lot of specialties

[white relic]

what are you hoping to learn here?

[graceful mason]

A software engineer can do all of those jobs

[stray radish]

idk looking

[white relic]

a list of every programming related job title ever?

[fluid fern]

nah, co worker who was also part of the e-mail chain sent 2 screen shots of adobe acrobat with the words "please e-mail back if you have further issues"

[stray radish]

software does them all?

[sleek egret]

can. has the potential ability to if he/she picks up the required skills/knowledge

[stray radish]

is software the highest rank?

[graceful mason]

Software engineer is a general job title, not a specific type of work

[sleek egret]

There are no ranks

[fluid fern]

already experiencing it recent one was cause it didn't like the pretrained weights i gave it

[buoyant seal]

Software engineer is a lifestyle 😄

[sleek egret]

This is not the Software Army. Though sometimes I wish it was.

[white relic]

idk, I've heard a lot about General Protectionfault and Colonel Panic

[stray radish]

what does software do

cuz I know full stack does both front and backend so wanted to know cool stuff like that

[sleek egret]

lol

[sleek egret]

Software does everything

[delicate bane]

sounds about right. if youre interested, FSDL has good content on MLOps. can send if youre into that stuff

[mortal wedge]

Don't think of it in terms of rank. Think of it in terms of specificity. If someone is marketing themselves as just a Software Engineer, I'd consider themselves a generalist. Whereas if someone said they were a frontend engineer, I'd assume they're specialized in frontend stuff

[fluid fern]

please do, doesn't hurt to learn more

[stray radish]

Its does everthing a full stack does and a data scientist and stuff?

[white relic]

nobody does everything

[mortal wedge]

distressed startup noises

[sleek egret]

No, I literally mean everything. From growing food to sending things into space. From deciding what ads get displayed to handling retail purchases. From paying people to diagnosing cancer. From driving cars to controlling pacemakers. From keeping track of warehouse inventory to routing deliveries.

[fluid fern]

if u wana no life, u can technically do everything

[white relic]

nobody does everything well

[sleek egret]

EVERYTHING

[stray radish]

so is it the hardest one of them allllllllllllllllllll

[summer roost]

software engineers can work in any of those 3 areas.

[stray radish]

3 areas?

[white relic]

it's the most general, least specialized category.
Difficulty is an entirely different axis.

[sleek egret]

Creating software is the process of taking vague, often contradictory, requirements and formalizing them as a coherent set of rules and constraints. Then expressing those rules and constraints as code. Then wanting to shoot yourself because it turned out that some of the requirements were wrong.

Then you do it all over again

[white relic]

openAI is so far behind us on the first and last steps of that process

[stray radish]

Like I wanted to do full stack but I was confused what software does

[sleek egret]

Lol, someone should create an AI with emotional issues

[stray radish]

Full stack developers and software engineers both work to achieve project goals and meet client objectives. However, full stack developers often hold leadership roles, while software engineers may work under the supervision of full stack developers and use their expertise to develop specific project features. google

[summer roost]

the 3 areas I named. Frontend, backend, embedded. Code that runs on a company's computers, end users' computers, things that aren't traditionally considered computers.

[sleek egret]

"full stack" only makes sense in web dev

[stray radish]

what about in genaral

[sleek egret]

this may be unfair, but I'd view it as a bit of a negative red flag if someone described himself as "full stack". it would indicate to me that their industry experience is severely limited and constrained.

but then I haven't done "web dev" in decades. so <shrug>

[stray radish]

cuz I wanna do like one of the hardest one

[white relic]

you can't believe everything you find on google, unfortunately.

[delicate bane]

hehe @buoyant seal i know how you feel about the word "fullstack", no?

[white relic]

what's your current education level?

[stray radish]

wdym

[sleek egret]

hardest one? how about researching new ML models to solve protein folding problems in bioinformatics

[white relic]

the really hard stuff is at the intersection of computer science and solving really hard problems in other fields

[fluid fern]

it's not worth going into software development if you aren't passionate about it, I would suggest seeing what you enjoy, if you do end up enjoying the idea of coding itself, which can be defined as one who enjoys to create instructions to a dumbass and then pray to god said dumbass understood what you wrote, then you can technically go into any role

[spark cobalt]

Yep agreed.

[sleek egret]

that seems pretty hard. a combination of AI/ML, biochem, multi-dimensional math, and distributed processing

[summer roost]

get a computer science degree, get some internships, learn what areas interest you the most.

[stray radish]

I just wanna do the highest programming thing like full stack does frontend and backend both I wanna know a job that does the most things

[sleek egret]

"full stack" is not "highest programming". not even close

[stray radish]

what is it then pls tell me

[sleek egret]

we have been. you're just not listening.

[true harness]

what does "highest" even mean

[stray radish]

sorry my head hurts

[fluid fern]

@stray radish what is your education level, i can distill the information based on what your education is

[sleek egret]

Like my comment about protein folding. that's real. there are people who do that. it's very challenging. I'm certainly not near smart enough for that shit.

[hasty harness]

All i can say is dont do it cause everyone is doing it

[peak halo]

"full stack" just means that you do front end and back end web dev. It's not the ultimate domain of development.

[stray radish]

whats the domain one

[fluid fern]

i think we're wasting our time here

[sleek egret]

"domain" just means "area"

[peak halo]

"domain" just means "category" or "area". There is no best area of programing.

[stray radish]

ye whats the domain for developemt

[sleek egret]

huh?

[peak halo]

This question doesn't make any sense.

[stray radish]

Here you said the the ultimate domain for development

[sleek egret]

re-read what he wrote

[peak halo]

There isn't an ultimate domain.

Full stack isn't the ultimate domain, and neither is any other.

[fluid fern]

ultimate domain can be stated as being on the bleeding edge, there're many areas which can be on such level

[peak halo]

This is not r/ProgrammerHumor. Also I would spend ten hours doing it, tyvm.

[stray radish]

whats one of the most challenging ones

[fluid fern]

they all are

[white relic]

computational chemistry (protein folding & such) was already mentioned
but of course that's only one example

[peak halo]

Creating game engines from scratch or doing phd-level AI stuff.

[summer roost]

if you define the "ultimate domain" as the one that requires the most specialized knowledge, it might be something like doing software work in the aerospace domain, or the biochemical engineering space, or something like that. But it's hard to even compare the amount of specialized knowledge required from one domain to another - do you need to know more to be a nuclear physicist or a veterinarian? 🤷‍♂️

[stray radish]

because listen frontend jobs only do frontend and backend only does backend and full stack does both with means it more challenging

[sleek egret]

it depends on the project. for example, I know the guy who led the team that wrote the software to manage the coordination and routing of the comms for spacex's starlink system. Quite math heavy because of the constantly changing time delays. Very challenging because they have to deal with constant network outages. Extremely annoying because they had to use lots of heuristics for dynamic routing.

[white relic]

doing two things doesn't mean you're smarter, it might just mean you are crap at both

[graceful mason]

Fullstack also isn't limited to just fullstack - at work I do fullstack web development, general java app development, and real-time embedded development

[fluid fern]

thats not how it works, i can be doing front end engineering for an AI which reads websites, or I can be that fullstack engineer doing another copy paste of the same website template and backend

[summer roost]

full stack web developers generally only do a very, very tiny bit of backend work. It's an area that requires less expertise than the average type of development.

[sleek egret]

As I said earlier, literally everything is run by software now. Which means jobs and projects range from software to monitor soil for farms to controller systems for surgery robots. From software to decide what video to promote to software to route packages for bike delivery guys in india. It's literally all over the map. All of them have different challenges. Some harder than others. But you can't know how hard until you define the project.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that (some) software to decide irrigation patterns for farms is more sophisticated and was more challenging to write than (some) software for guiding rockets in space. Or the reverse.

But they main thing you need to understand is that web dev is the tip of the iceberg

[mortal wedge]

I wonder if I'll get a followup interview for the surgical robot job I applied to

[sleek egret]

Ever see the youtube guy's "I built a surgery robot" video? It's hillarious

[fluid fern]

good comedian

[graceful mason]

not sure if you'll make it past the interview when they realise you're not a real robot 😦

[mortal wedge]

😄

I'm a pretty good fit for it I think, but a lot of larger companies seem to be putting hiring on freeze until after the holidays, while startups are hiring now, so I may have to decide whether or not to reject an offer even when that job is pending. (I'm a startup guy)

[sleek egret]

that sucks but typically, even during a "hiring freeze", they'll hire people to replace those who leave

[fluid fern]

my pipe dream is to just work for a shit ton of money then do my own project

[mortal wedge]

Yeah. There's even one position at a major corporation where they're hiring a new Principal Software Engineer. I only barely passed the first round and then they froze, but ughhhhh

I really don't want to be in a position where I quit a position after a month because my dream job is knocking at my door

[sleek egret]

fair enough

[mortal wedge]

Oh well. It probably won't happen. Maybe I have imposter syndrome or maybe I'm just able to accurately gauge my abilities/experience, but I really don't think I'm their best candidate.

[sleek egret]

bah, it's a crap shoot. you know that.

[mortal wedge]

YEah. Gotta shoot your shot, right?

[sleek egret]

amen, brah

[fluid fern]

meh, hiring has some luck to it, met enough people in my life that got a job at faang company but don't even know how to create a simple relational database

[vapid jay]

did they need to?

[mortal wedge]

Well, if you're flat out not qualified for a position, you're likely to get fired and waste everybody's time, including yours

[sleek egret]

I bet they could create an overly complicated relational database though. amirite? 🙂

[mortal wedge]

If I was asked to create a relational database the first thing I'd do is google "How to create a relational database"

[fluid fern]

well, i assume so since the one i'm specifically outing got it with the title "network infrastructure"

[vapid jay]

network infrastructure would be building the database server and host setup would it not?

[fluid fern]

never had such title and never worked at said company, no clue, on another note my SA at my current job doesn't know to to create queries ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[vapid jay]

then i am missing the meaning of ur first statement. also what is sa?

[fluid fern]

system architect

[vapid jay]

do they need queries?

[fluid fern]

they're responsible for creating our databases 🗿

[sleek egret]

lol

[white relic]

looking down on other people for not knowing stuff you know isn't a good way to understand the world, IMO

[sleek egret]

you're not wrong, but it's a good way to vent. and it's sorta funny

[fluid fern]

i understand that fully but at some point I do question how certain people get to their positions excluding the possibility of seniority

[vapid jay]

if u r venting then offtopic here is good. some of us r here to learn

[white relic]

if somebody has an important job title and doesn't know stuff, maybe it's because technical knowledge isn't the only valuable thing in their job

or maybe their technical knowledge is about things you have no idea even exist

[vapid jay]

is architect not a planner and larger designer rather than a builder? job titles are fuzzy

[sleek egret]

you guys are technically correct, but IMO, someone in a senior guiding technical role should have a wide breadth of practical technical knowledge. IMO, it's important because it allows them to more properly assess options.

[mortal wedge]

Job titles, especially in software, are extremely fuzzy.

You're lucky if people respect the convention of Associate -> Junior -> Senior -> Staff -> Principal

[sleek egret]

the funniest are "senior developers" with a TOTAL of 2 or 3 years experience

[fluid fern]

my original statement was that hiring has luck to it and gave an example, you then further inquired about my example which i gave an answer to it, if you have a problem with it ask a mod

The system architect role at my company is expecting them to also build the database and create queries, though the query creation part has been delegated to the software engineers themselves at this point with a disconnect of the database architecture being scuffed some times

[white relic]

Hah, in my previous company it was (nothing) -> Principal -> Senior Principal -> Staff -> Senior Staff

[sleek egret]

on that particular facet, I have to disagree. without a good understanding of how the database is to be used (which includes creating queries), it's not possible to come up with a good database design. IMO, of course.

[summer roost]

it just means that "senior" means a different thing at their company than you're used to.

[sleek egret]

There's more to database architecture than 4NF

[sleek egret]

Sure, I just find it funny

[white relic]

A person might have an excellent understanding of relational databases and not know the intricacies of whatever brand of SQL their current employer uses well enough to craft queries.

[summer roost]

true, though they do need to at least understand keys.

[fluid fern]

query language isn't that different if you were to compare across all SQL languages not at all if you compare SQL to NOSQL though

[mortal kite]

In my experience, the only time a company actually cares about your code quality is the interview.

After that, "if it works, it works" and even then only if it doesn't trigger a Sev1 ticket.

[summer roost]

That's definitely not true at all companies.

[sleek egret]

at firms with a good engineering culture, those in senior technical roles will work to ensure good code quality. it is part of their job, IMO. to expect executives to care is just silly.

[mortal kite]

If they have time.

Where I work, we're told "you can always fix the code quality later, we need to focus on deliverables"

And then never actually are given the time, because time spent fixing already working code is time that we could be spending making new features for the execs to brag about.

[mortal wedge]

lol wtf

[sleek egret]

You make the time. I've been in that role. Asking senior execs for more time is just ass backwards.

[mortal kite]

I don't know about you, but I sleep at night.

[sleek egret]

sleep is for the weak.

[mortal kite]

let me know how the burnout's treating ya then

[fluid fern]

[summer roost]

neither burnout nor asking executives for time is the right solution. you handle it by planning time to do things right into your estimates for your deliverables

[sleek egret]

But seriously, it's not like they can tell if it takes 5 days to deliver something vs 6 or 7 days. It is incumbent on the senior technical staff to set the tone and institute both informal and formal processes to ensure high code quality. It's a constant battle.

[mortal wedge]

I heard the adage that you should double your time estimates to account for unexpected occurrences and triple it if someone else is involved in your deadline

[mortal kite]

which is why I currently have my time estimates at n^2

[sleek egret]

What junior folks tend to not understand is that what senior execs want more than anything else is predictability and reliability. They will be happier if you say 5 days and get it done in 5 days than you say 3 days and get it done in 4.

[mortal wedge]

I burnout by underestimating the amount of time it takes then going ham on it to meet my self-imposed deadline. TRying to be better at that

[mortal kite]

Not in my experience. What they want is for everything to be done the day before they ask for it.

[mortal wedge]

There are definitely companies that run like that. They are not good companies to work for.

[sleek egret]

What helped me was keeping timesheets. For myself, never shared with anyone. And then going back and comparing my estimates with what actually happened. And thinking about WHY I was so wrong. After doing this a dozen or so times, I started getting far better at my estimation.

[fluid fern]

this, I don't have a degree is psychology nor am I to speak on behalf of other but I would say that it's common to assume I can do something in x time when in reality it took x*1.5~2, personally I would say I can do it in x*1.5 plus a cavate which would make it x*m but that's jsut me

[delicate bane]

almost wish there was a way you could know what a company is actually like before accepting an offer

[sleek egret]

I think it's critical, btw, that you keep your timesheets private. Sharing them leads you to fudging them. Or at least I know it would with me.

[sleek egret]

lol, can't help you there. most places seem to lie <shrug>

[delicate bane]

interesting.

[mortal wedge]

Are you familiar with reverse interviews? I've had people reach out with reverse interview requests. But yeah, I think most people don't realize that an interview is a two-way street. I tend to work for startups, but I grill them on their flagship product and stuff about their company to make sure it's a stable move and the company isn't going under in a few months

[delicate bane]

yeah ofc but like theres only so much signal you can get from something like that.

[mortal wedge]

Absolutely, but ofc the same can be said in the other direction... only so much can be figured out about you by them interviewing you

[delicate bane]

and like rmah said, companies do lie too lol or tend to exaggerate

[hasty harness]

My interviews automatically turns into discussion lol

[fluid fern]

unfortunate that this is what it has come to, it use to be "what would you like to know about us" at the end of your interview

[mortal wedge]

You don't necessarily need to reach out and schedule a reverse interview, although it may be a good idea. I may also be in a different boat than most, I want to know a company is stable and funded before jumping to it in the startup space.

[sleek egret]

asking questions makes them think you know what you're talking about

[mortal wedge]

Most larger companies besides Twitter don't tend to spontaneously implode.

[mortal kite]

Well, given the one I'm at is from the 40s...

[summer roost]

You can definitely get quite far with questions like "can you tell me about a time when a project went over its estimate?" - you can definitely get a feel for how much of a big deal that occurrence is, how often it happens, etc.

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, it looks good for you. Especially if they open up about X dilemma the company is facing and you're able to contribute something and say how you would help

[sleek egret]

wanna hear my funniest interview story?

[mortal wedge]

Those are referred to as boomerang questions, leading questions designed to continue to make you look good.

[mortal kite]

These sound great for people who don't have social phobias about sticking out too much.

[sleek egret]

ok... so I was pretty young. looking to move to NYC. got an interview with a big bank. they described how they were doing something. I arrogantly said, "I don't think that will work." they made me an offer anyway but I took a job at another firm for more money...

[mortal kite]

Or other related disabilities.

[tall zenith]

I don't think any industry is accommodating of anti-social people unfortunately

[sleek egret]

... fast forward a couple years and I'm looking for a job again. a headhunter described a job to me at a banks. sounded really familiar. I go, "is it at bank X?" he says, "oh, you talked to them already?" I'm like, "no, but if you get me an interview, I think I can get this job." so he does...

[mortal kite]

When did I say anti-social?

[tall zenith]

Ah yeah anti-social doesn't mean that my bad

[delicate bane]

makes sense. good to have questions like these in your back pocket

[sleek egret]

... I go in and it's the same manager. I could tell she rememberd me as I walked in. so I just said, "so... didn't work, huh?" she just laughed and replied, "haha, no. want the job?"

[mortal kite]

In my experience, most industries are pretty damn ableist if the disability isn't something like "this person doesn't have legs"

[tall zenith]

Yeah, all of them

[sleek egret]

I was such an arrogant ass when I was younger. lol

[vapid jay]

was

[tall zenith]

The issue I suppose is the disability results in some other less tangible disadvantage that legal protections generally don't exist for or aren't legally enforced i.e. not interviewing well

[sleek egret]

No one wants to work with anti-social people. because, you know, they're anti-social. how is this in any way a surprise?

[mortal kite]

Again, when did I say anti-social? I said disability.

[tall zenith]

I think the RoI on rehearsing interview questions and social coaching/improvement on that front is probably higher than leetcode but might not be possible with a disability

[sleek egret]

oh, sorry, my mistake then

[tall zenith]

That's more of a life thing than a software thing

[mortal kite]

In my case, I cannot focus at all if I can hear human voices.

Such as in an office setting.

or a cafe.

[fluid fern]

makes sense for them to be ablest, they need to run a business

[sleek egret]

oh wait, Larss said "anti-social"

[mortal wedge]

Do you have ADD?

[mortal kite]

And PTSD and ASD

[sleek egret]

It's like they are running a business to make money. the evil bastards!

[mortal kite]

as well as an autoimmune disorder, come to think of it.

[mortal wedge]

Gotcha. You could have a reasonable accommodation request to work remote or a hybrid schedule. As far as learning how to interview, even if you don't inherently know how to do it it's a skill that can be developed like any other. I have ADD and am anti-social, but I practiced and practiced until I can talk smoothly and confidently during these things. I can focus as long as I'm properly medicated. THankfully my company (any many others) don't care too much about how you work as long as you're meeting your deliverables and are productive.

[upbeat thicket]

can someone do my homework ?

[vapid jay]

i bet if u applied some effort that u could

[tall zenith]

I had an autism diagnosis as a kid but it was more due to a terrible home life so probably not real autism, exposing myself to social scenarios repeatedly and getting interview coaching as well as rehearsing questions from their glassdoor pages helped me a bit

[upbeat thicket]

im able to, but my knowledge on python is limited

[vapid jay]

that is the point

[mortal kite]

Well, if the "insurance" my company provides would actually cover my meds, I might be able to get somewhere. Having to pay $1900 each month on top of rent....

[upbeat thicket]

[white relic]

this channel is for career discussion, see #❓｜how-to-get-help (you'll need to be more specific about the help you want)

[mortal wedge]

That's a pretty flawed insurance company. I'm sure there are many factors, but the companies I've worked at have covered my ADD meds. I can also sometimes go without if I self-medicate with caffeine.

[mortal kite]

The autoimmune disorder has a nasty side effect where I cannot take pills at all, so all my meds have to be specially formulated to be skin patches.

[mortal wedge]

Ah, so you need a formulary?

[mortal kite]

There is a medicine that exists, but Caremark keeps pretending that I need a formulary.

So I end up having to pay full price for a box of patches.

[summer roost]

You'd actually be surprised how willing companies are to accommodate disabilities like that for interviews. I know of people being interviewed over video even in the pre-covid days, for instance, specifically because they said they'd be able to better focus on the interview that way.

[mortal wedge]

It sounds like one of the reverse interview questions you ask need to be about their insurance plan. That or you need to push your insurance company hard. But dealing with health insurance companies are the worst.

[arctic badger]

I learn python core. But I am not getting python job

What can I do

[sleek egret]

learn stuff around the core?

[mortal kite]

I have a feeling I'd be better able to focus on my job if we weren't being required to come into the open-concept open-floorplan office three days a month (going up to three days a week next year, and mandatory full time office time next summer)

[mortal wedge]

What do you mean by Python core? What kind of jobs are you applying for?

[arctic badger]

Back end developer

[mortal wedge]

THere are still fully remote positions available. Granted, the competition for them are fierce. But that may be what you have to shoot for.

[mortal kite]

As it is, I've become known to leave halfway through the day saying "I'm heading home so I can get some work done"

[sleek egret]

might I humbly suggest that that is not a great thing to do for your career there?

better would be to ask for a quiet space for concentration or something like that

[mortal wedge]

I'm typically a high performer, but my company doesn't know that sometimes I work hella early, sometimes hella late, and sometimes take naps during the day.

[mortal kite]

I already consulted with a lawyer, if they fire me over it I'll have a case under the ADA.

[sleek egret]

No offense, but that's a real long shot. the lawyer is just hoping for an easy settlement.

[white relic]

eh, that seems like a pretty normal thing to do to me, although personally I prefer working from work.
Company culture certainly plays a role.

[arctic badger]

What we need to learn python. Getting python job

[sleek egret]

I like naps too

[fluid fern]

been diagnosed with moderate ADHD, don't know if that means anything, my company doesn't care if I take a quick nap since i tend to out perform my peers, I'm quite sure it's fine as long as you get your work done

[sleek egret]

let's all take a siesta!

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, I hyperfocus and have bouts of extreme productivity and bouts of null productivity, but it balances out above average so my boss doesn't give a poop

[tall zenith]

Anyone have advice for escaping proprietary tech hell? I've been working with proprietary tech for a year. I work in back-end and this is my first software dev position, they use their own database system and language. I don't have a degree but finished the first two years of a BS CS (calc 3, dsa II, etc).
I'll probably be targeting some back-end positions without proprietary tech but not sure if they'll filter me for not having the BS, I'd rather not go into front-end if possible.
My current position is 80% remote so I'd prefer to keep that rate or go to 100% remote. My current job also doesn't hound me or track my productivity very much at all. I'm trying not to step out into a demanding environment where my QoL will suffer. I work maybe 4-5 hours per day at the moment and never do overtime.
My company has some react-native and k8s/node positions I could try to get into as well, I think this might be the call as fully/mostly remote junior positions seem difficult to get without prior stack exp. I'm in the Twin Cities area if it matters.

[buoyant seal]

I tend to agree with rmah. Usually when person has no clear specialization, then he is master of nothing.

I am saying it as hypocrite, since I actually learned ... At least junior level of frontend. And technically I am sort of full stack. But i just claim being Backend guy, since this is my expertise

[fluid fern]

now that i think about it, a lot of people in my team actually take naps and it boosts productivity a lot lol

[mortal kite]

To be fair, my direct manager has said that if push comes to shove, he'll let me quit and then immediately rehire me as fully remote, but we're using that as a last resort. I'd rather work with the employer rather than around them.

[arctic badger]

Any tell me the answer please

[summer roost]

I'm not sure that's true if you don't ask for accommodations.

[mortal kite]

I have. Twice now.

[delicate bane]

i am also hypocrite tbh. trying to work towards "full stack DS"/MLE skill set atm

[mortal wedge]

Also, clearly say "I have an ADA request" when you ask to be SUPER sure that it's classified as such and passed up the chain of command that way

[tall zenith]

I'm not a lawyer but this sounds like it opens you up to losing a lot of rights.

[mortal kite]

which is why it's a last resort.

[buoyant seal]

But in my defense, backend guy at middle+ rank is actually obligated to know junior level of frontend. As well as the opposite is true.
They are too much correlated

[mortal wedge]

I mean, my direct manager told me to use whatever job title I wanted for my resume/linkedin, but I'm not going to advertise that to the rest of my company.

[mortal kite]

Twice, as ADA accommodations, with notes from both PCP and Psychiatrist who did the screenings.

[mortal wedge]

Okay, good. Once you've said "ADA request" companies tend to view it much differently.

Nobody wants to get sued.

[delicate bane]

yeah it really helps in web dev doesnt it? my other friend was complaining how he had to take all the backend US even though the other devs on his team are also "full-stack" but they have been staying in the frontend lane only

[mortal kite]

The only time I got a response other than being ghosted was "we don't want to be seen as giving people preferential treatment"

Bruh, that ship sailed when you gave yourself a $2billion bonus last year.

[smoky quest]

that's not how accommodation for disabilities work. It may be good to remind them about it without using the word lawyer

[tall zenith]

Honestly I'd swap to a company that's comfortable with remote without a disability request if possible

[mortal kite]

Right now my plan is to try to outlast the coming recession, and then start aggressively seeking positions in a better company.

[tall zenith]

Not saying you don't have grounds but you'll be in a precarious position open to abuse by future managers if required in-person work is normalized in your division should your direct leave

[mortal wedge]

Okay. IANAL and this is not legal advice: Not sure about your next steps. But if they fire you for something that you alerted them to in the past as a reasonable accommodation, they could get sued. I know someone who sued a company about this and won.

[mortal wedge]

Honestly, that's how I've managed it. Safer that way.

[tall zenith]

Like I'd rather be fully remote in the company that defaults to fully remote than fully remote on a pinkie promise from a boss that doesn't report when I'm not in the office.

[mortal kite]

Let's just say that I have been keeping careful notes about my interactions with the people involved.

[mortal wedge]

Good

[tall zenith]

My employment contract still unfortunately says hybrid 2 days in person, I might reneg that on the next performance review to get 1 or 0.

But if your company culture is one that refuses disability accomodation and keeps people in the office like feudal lords I'd start the ADA stuff and try to dip to a company that isn't full of psycho middle managers.

[mortal kite]

I would also be fully remote in a company that agrees to it during the interview than on a "trust us this time, we actually mean it we swear" basis.

At the moment I'll settle for being able to use my MMJ card without having to worry about that part too. I did get that accommodation at least.

[tall zenith]

Actually I'm curious, how's labor law surrounding fully or mostly remote jobs requiring you to go in-person more? Are there ways to negotiate your employment offer so that you can be guaranteed severance and notice if they swap back to primarily in-office?

[mortal kite]

It doesn't fix the focus issues, but it is great at keeping my chronic insomnia in check.

[mortal kite]

I don't know about the law, but the policy where I work (and I'm kicking myself for not moving in 2020 to take advantage of this) is "If you were hired remote or moved more than four hours away from the office during remote work, then you don't have to go back to the office ever again."

[tall zenith]

Could just use a relative's address and forward mail

[mortal kite]

So a friend who moved to Austin is now fully remote because she's well over six hours from the nearest office.

[mortal kite]

If you moved after January 1, 2022, then make sure you book a hotel room for the weeks that you are assigned to be in the office.

[tall zenith]

whack

[mortal kite]

Yup

Guess who owns the two nearest hotels.

I will always say that my biggest financial blunder was being born too late to take advantage of the most recent housing crash.

[tall zenith]

The biggest financial blunder of mine was not being born in the easy mode that was the 60s/70s/80s/90s

[peak halo]

okay non-boomer

[white relic]

that's a heck of a window my friend

[mortal wedge]

THe biggest financial blunder of mine is not being born to the English Royal family. I wasn't even born to an English family. Way off the mark. Even with this example, I barely know what I'm talking about

[smoky quest]

A cs degree is the route with the least resistance and most opportunities

[mortal wedge]

Stay in school, go to college, get degree, apply for jobs

Outside of some big brand name colleges it's not likely to matter to employers. Choose based on the quality of the program, area you'll be living in, etc. etc.

[summer roost]

It doesn't matter very much, practically speaking. If you have options, look for one that's affordable. Ideally one with good internship connections. Schools with co-op programs are pretty great.

[mortal wedge]

Wow, how did I miss price. Yes, definitely consider affordability

That's definitely a popular option. I don't have enough information to say if that's right for you.

[delicate bane]

in the end, the decision is up to you. probs would be a good idea to talk to some veterans about their experience if you can before making such a big life decision

[true harness]

chances are you're not going to be deployed anyways. but if you score well enough on tests, you'll be placed into a role that makes more sense. they don't want cybersecurity people being shot, for instance

[spark cobalt]

Depending on how expensive your college is, air force can waste your time if the only thing you're looking for is to just get free college.

4 year college => Start career => 2 years to pay off debt => Already 2 YOE and already in somewhat stable career position

Granted that you pay off your debt within 2 years. Definitely want to look into your financial aid options, doing CC for 2 years then transferring, etc.

If you pay it off within 2 years, you're in exact same position but with 2 YOE.

[summer roost]

college debt isn't particularly bad, if you find an in-state school. It has a relatively low interest rate, and most developers I know were able to pay off their student loans within just a few years.

[spark cobalt]

Fantasize harder. This is the wrong place. Go to #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval.

[vapid jay]

yo

[mortal wedge]

This is t the right channel for this. Or the right server for this

[blazing ivy]

or you could learn online for free, save yourself 100 grand, and teach yourself the skill of learning yourself which is what you will be doing as you work ina actual job

[summer roost]

!warn 1052074315765526638 Don't ask for help cheating on assignments here.

!warn 600778305398112262 Don't ask for help cheating on assignments here.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @vapid jay.

[vapid jay]

bro it aint cheating if you dont get caught

[summer roost]

!mute 600778305398112262 57m Yes it is.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until <t:1820808503:f> (4 years and 9 months).

[blazing ivy]

but you did get caught

[summer roost]

ugh, meant to do minutes. >_>

[buoyant seal]

Now that is rough time 😅

[mortal wedge]

LOL 4 years

[blazing ivy]

lol

[summer roost]

yeah, gonna have to go fix that...

[marsh thistle]

y'all don't know how many reminders are set years in the future cause of this lol

[summer roost]

no, we don't do that.

[true harness]

learning online isn't the same as a degree for a variety of reasons

[shadow hornet]

Is learning regression analysis necessary for data analysts?

Serious career question

[carmine citrus]

what coding language / course should i learn for a future in the longrun? I am still in the teen ages, so I have a lot of time. I am 15

[cobalt plank]

is there like a book or something I can read that helps explain the tech industry to me and like what paths are available and what options I have?

I am so confused in terms of what coding language correlates to what and who needs to leetcode and who doesn't need to leetcode and what part of tech AI is in and what skills are in demand

[carmine citrus]

i visited that when I was in the US, its lovely, but i still think that you can find the stuff online if you have the mindset

[shadow hornet]

The more popular programming languages can be used for many different functions. For example, python alone can be used for data analysis, deep learning (like example, image recognition), web development, making games, automating tasks, etc. There are more specialised programming languages such as SQL, that are used for especially for relational databases.

I would recommend learning from any beginner programming course first to get an idea on what you want to do. AI is a little vague and is generally within the field of machine learning, but machine learning would not necessarily be AI.

Leetcode is just site people practice programming on, so don't worry about it

[spark cobalt]

I would just focus on picking up the general concepts from a general purpose language like Python, then utilize Python to explore the dozens of fields that you can partake in. Web development (front/back), DS, AI/ML, network engineer, DevOps, game dev, embedded stuff, etc.

What's important is the concepts you learn, not really a specific language. I would focus on just exploring what CS is capable of, then find a field you're interested in and start specifically learning languages and frameworks that are used often within that field.

!resources a good place to start for Python.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[spark cobalt]

Generally speaking, if you're more passionate about a subject and like a subject, you'd have a better chance at succeeding and rising above your peers.

[white moss]

Hey IT guys. Go outside and get a real job, touch grass.

[summer roost]

!mute 471598634312531968 1w trolling

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @white moss until <t:1671528148:f> (7 days).

[buoyant seal]

It depends on your interests allignments
Javascript/Typescript = good for frontend (can work as very poor substitute for everything else too though)
Python = Backend / Data Science / Machine Learning
C# = Windows GUI Desktop, Somewhat acceptable Web backend lang with .Net Core, works for desktop Windows Gaming (hello Unity)
Java = Good for backend, desktop and mobile
PHP = probably good for nothing (works for backend though)
Ruby = again backend only language?
C++ = works for Heavy desktop applications and for system applications
C = works for embedded development
Rust = Young successor to replace C, has similar roles to C/C++
Golang = DevOps engineering snowflake / good backend / applied even in embed

==================
I would probably recommend just learning Java at this point. Java is
strong typed language (yields good quality results),
popular for entry jobs,
Universal for web backend / desktop and mobile at the same time
Traditional in being OOP
has ensured future with languages on top of it (Kotlyn / Scala, which are modifications to Java u can easy to learn if u already know Java)
So essentially i think Java is good bet, and gives room for many types of developments while giving quality enough result

• it is fun language in general, due to... allowing to make Minecraft mods 😆
  And has very a lot of developers and jobs in it

of course in 5-10 years, stuff can change though, but i believe with considering its amount of popularity / amount of apps-already written code / and room for evolvement with Kotlyn / Scala stuff, it should be with 99.999% chance still present and with 85% chance still popular in 5-10 years

Java legacy will be dying next 30 years at least probably 😆 Even if started to die today.

[buoyant seal]

I have realized another point why full-stack devs are a mess.
At some point any sane backend developer can realize, how messy javascript language is. Probably there is no more messy language than JS is Frontend framework like Vue.js is still enjoyable to use though. The point is though... there is no worse code base to have at code growth scale I suspect.

Anyway, i often see as full stack developers usually Frontend Javascript developers who learned some start of backend (in javascript again 🙈 )... Considering that usually Javascript is their main and almost the only language.... I think results are quite poor by design. Since Javascript i think is not really great backend choice, or for that matter choice for anything besides Frontend 😐

Obiously, it is possible to write something good (probably?) in javascript if to try very hard (probably?). But still it is a challenge made difficult by design

[near ocean]

JS rants arent really on topic for the channel

JS is about as stable a language in terms of job opportunities as they come

[worldly ridge]

@buoyant seal what is your opinion for python in devops

[buoyant seal]

useful human readable quickly to write scripts. Certainly a good thing to have. A way better alternative to using just shell/bash stuff
if u write script more than one liner, better to write it in Python than in shell/bash
libraries like argparse and certainly your friend, to have nice self documentation to your scripts made right on the spot
P.S. python scripts with third party library packages are dreadful in bloating docker images though.

[buoyant seal]

at the same time for simple many scripts better to use actually taskfile https://taskfile.dev/usage/ As a more standartized, CI friendly, language agnostic and yaml friendly way. Yaml developer all the way.

[worldly ridge]

thanks

[white relic]

If you want to get a job in devops, you'll probably be looking at taking on responsibility for a bunch of half baked scripts written by other people in their own favorite languages. A lot of people like Python so Python is a good language to know because it's likely you'll encounter it and having it on your resume will get you more interviews. What you actually use on the job may be a different matter.

[worldly ridge]

I have an interview for a junior devops position, but as far as devops goes i only used python and linux till now (and git)

[white relic]

Some familiarity with git, shell scripting and general system administration will also help from that perspective

[buoyant seal]

regretfully trentj is right, and all scripts are written in backend language of a project. But at some point there could be very great desire to have all more advanced devops scripts just written in Golang. This language is the best for DevOps, in being relatively simple, rich in DevOps ecosystem, and compiled to small binaries great for docker image usage. Results in Golang are produced of the final quality lets say. Probably not very simple to use though.

[white relic]

That seems unlikely, but I'm no futurist 🙂

[buoyant seal]

Terraform / Docker / Kubernets, and etc everything is made in Golang. I Checked future infra provisioning tools like AWS CDK, Pulumi, Terraform CDK. Besides popular backend langs, they are sure to have support for Golang. So Golang takes certain special place being popular for devops solutions already
https://aws.amazon.com/cdk/faqs/#:~:text=Q%3A What programming languages does,Go (in Developer Preview).
https://www.pulumi.com/docs/intro/languages/
https://developer.hashicorp.com/terraform/cdktf

Considering that usually language should be matching backend language... Golang is not great first choice due to its low popularity in everything else though / backend included. Great second+ language at least

[white relic]

I think you're allowing your preference for the language to blind you to practical realities.
The 90s didn't see all shell scripts rewritten in Perl, the 00s didn't see them all rewritten in Python, the 10s didn't see them all rewritten in node.js or whatever, I don't think we're going to see a huge push to convert devops to Go

[buoyant seal]

for just scripts, probably no. For more web interactive DevOps solutions? Yes, it is already and highly likely will continue
Besides mentioned tools above, stuff like Prometheus / Loki monitoring and logging systems are made in it. Results are very pleasurable to use due to being one binary file
Or for making any kind of CI instruments / Linters. Better everything more fully fledged made in Go. Basically anything more than script

[digital fjord]

things are written in the language they were first written in, generally. So I would expect new things to be in go, but rewriting old things into go seems... unlikely.

[white relic]

Considering that usually language should be matching backend language
that also doesn't really ring true to me; I don't need to know Go to use Docker

[buoyant seal]

probably u incorrectly read it. I was saying it in the meaning. If the project has everything already written in Python for its backend, then its devops scripts will be in Python too
Same for Java / C# / Javascript-Typescript and etc

[white relic]

sure 🤷‍♂️
well, we'll find out in ten years or so, I guess.

[buoyant seal]

I don't think we're going to see a huge push to convert devops to Go
we don't need to wait those years to see it :/ All important devops infrastructure objects right now are already made in it.

Kubernetes is the only winning container orchestration open source solution for example, made in go. Other solutions are made in it too i think though

[gilded valley]

this is like saying web dev is done in C because Nginx is written in C

the fact k8s, docker etc were developed in Golang is largely irrelevant

[buoyant seal]

:/ it is relevant, if you need making any new web infra object or some CI pipeline tool. Golang results are nicely injected into docker images of any project without bloating image.

[gilded valley]

it absolutely is not relevant - the only thing that matters is the APIs it exposes

[buoyant seal]

tell it to all Node Modules/Pip packages for gigabyte of size accompanying made tool, which u wish to add to your CI pipeline for example. Solutions in Python/JS made for DevOps have hardly reversible tech debt by design.

[frozen bobcat]

is anyone here good with linux commands? i could use some help with really simple commands that i think most people here can understand.

[balmy spade]

This is #career-advice , you should try in #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval or #tools-and-devops

How is "devops" defined in either where you work or in your mind? It's a word like many others that grows and mutates in meaning. From a career viewpoint, what is devops today?

[sacred stump]

anyone here know which specialization should is good in data science

anyone here know which specialization is good in data science

[shadow hornet]

Statistics, data management and databases, programming languages like Python and SQL. All of these carry over in roles like Data Engineer, Data Analyst, Business Analysts, Data Scientists, etc.

Being able to do and understand data visualisation is one of the most important things

Most niche and pays the best is probably a machine learning scientist

[exotic creek]

Hello
What Programming language should i start with?
I have just finished high school and i'm not sure if i should start with python or c++.
so which one should i start with?
and i would be thankful if you can recommend some courses for me.
Thank You.

[buoyant seal]

they are too much different in applications
C++ for desktop/system/embedded dev
Python for backend and data science / machine learning / scripting
so question raises what u like

[white relic]

already under discussion in general

[solar shell]

We seem to be on the same boat 😆 , we'll, i'm currently taking up an online course with Coursera, you look it up and see whats on offer. I'd say, i'm learning just fine

[exotic creek]

sorry but i saw that they are discussing something else and i didn't want to interrupt them

[tight ibex]

python captcha solvers moment

[buoyant seal]

#career-advice message
@solar shell @exotic creek feel free to consider my very opinionated opinion.

[vapid jay]

i reccomend python since its easy to learn then go onto c++

[exotic creek]

Actually this is really useful. thanks for sharing

[solar shell]

Having seen a friend use Java, I wholly agree with your opinion.

[exotic creek]

i know a lot of people how recommended me to start with Java Script but i think that i am gonna start with python

[near ocean]

they both work and look alike, the only advantage JS has over Py is that you can easily visualise stuff in the web, which may or may not help you retain an interest in programming

[azure mauve]

What’s the best major to get in college for computer programming and virtualization

[white relic]

Probably computer science, or software engineering if the university offers it

[exotic creek]

Personally i've found out that software engineering is the best for me

[azure mauve]

Ok thanks so much

[exotic creek]

I have got the same interests as you, but i recommend you ask your teacher about the difference between computer science and software engineer

or search it up on youtube

[azure mauve]

Alright thank you

[cobalt plank]

where do you guys learn to make all of these complex coding projects?

[near ocean]

Studying, personal projects, work, open source

[drowsy drum]

are there any good guides recommended for someone trying to go into data analysis/science as a career?

[mighty crystal]

second, similar question:
I went ahead and learned python (focus pandas/sklearn), SQL and Tableau, used these for my thesis project but now struggle to find a use case to "train myself on" while being stuck in a different job

i mean there's kaggle, but maybe someone else has good suggestions (refering to open source)

i aim to add noSQL/engineering to the toolbox after cert as analyst

[near ocean]

The key in any kind of data heavy job (other than data entry) is to get a degree
It unlocks much more than youtube courses or even kaggle could ever

[cobalt plank]

like a bachelors in compsci? @near ocean I'm getting that but im not sure if i really want a masters in data. Also, what do you mean by open source? Github?

[mighty crystal]

I'm not from "within the industry", but is that really the case? During my masters (statistics dpt, modeling), the general conclusion was that certs + self-driven project history have much more value / advantage

[near ocean]

Any kind of opensource code/projects, github is just one collection
BSc CompSci is a good choice

[drowsy drum]

I'm a math major, no real work experience though, but I have experience with python, just not much to show on my github relevant to data science

is a data entry job an actual start into data analysis?

[near ocean]

There are no certs that are worth your time for python

Data entry is intern grunt work

[mighty crystal]

I agree on python, not on a general analyst / engineering cert linked to projects though

[mighty crystal]

please elaborate, I'm really curious regarding your opinion.

[near ocean]

Which certs are you talking about?

[mighty crystal]

may I dm you directly at this point?

[near ocean]

Its better to keep in server, other people might want to chime in

Data entry is maintaining/updating some sort of records, usually done through a CRM, boring stuff thats not really analysis

[cobalt plank]

if i contribute to an opensource project it technically won't be my project though right? @near ocean

[near ocean]

No, but your contributions would be visible and measureable

And also it shows that youre enthusiastic about programming without a financial incentive, as a hobby

[sleek egret]

yar

[sleek egret]

No. data entry is what you outsource to people paid $1 in 3rd world nations

[near ocean]

Kind of ironic since this is all a big ruse to get employers to give you a salary

[mighty crystal]

I just didnt want to be as rude as to openly infer your position/experience to "weigh" your advice for me :p

[sleek egret]

That doesn't seem very genuine

[near ocean]

Gotta pay bills somehow

[near ocean]

1year3month exp here, you dont have to consider my opinion at all, which is why i asked for you to keep it here
There are people much more experienced than me that could contribute to the discussion

[balmy mural]

Having recently tried to get into data related positions, applying for over 100 jobs, less than 10 had only a bachelors as a requirement. Majority asked for Masters with PhD listed as a nice to have

[sleek egret]

That's pretty standard, yes

[mighty crystal]

rn I'm just looking to re-enter the data sector. As such, I took the datacamp course projects and ramp through these for SQL/Py/R (repetition)

Rn I am aiming for any cert to demonstrate I can learn+perform on my own, looking to cert / do projects in AWS or simple data engineering afterwards while applying

[drowsy drum]

I guess so, I guess data scientists would be more concerned with deciding what kind of information goes in and from where

[sleek egret]

Turns out that most undergrads don't actually understand math. Maybe half of the grad students in technical fields actually understand math. But 50% is better than 20%

[mighty crystal]

thanks. my experience exactly. Plus they list 90% the same hard skills, which is why many interviewers seem to mention "anything that discerns you" is beenficial

[sleek egret]

Both the inputs and the analysis of the data after cleaning

BTW, one way to get your foot in the door if you don't have a PhD is to emphasize your elite skills at cleaning data. It's a major pain point for DS/DE and none of the PhD types want to do it.

[drowsy drum]

theres also the 3-5 years of experience for an entry level position

[mighty crystal]

so... any input for a good project to "hit the ground running" apart from just chewing on kaggle data?

[balmy mural]

That's just a wishlist, people who actually have 3-5 YoE aren't applying for entry level positions unless they have very specific circumstances

[near ocean]

You also might be looking at the wrong postings if they mention 3-5 years experience

[balmy mural]

Yea, I normally see junior positions asking for 1-2 YoE, not 3-5

[drowsy drum]

I'm mostly searching on linkedin rn, but I think I'll prob check some other site soon

[sleek egret]

it depends on you

[drowsy drum]

the project I plan to do is create some visualizations given data I find in studies so I can do a type of meta analysis

gotta build a portfolio

[sleek egret]

data visualization is always a fun time

[near ocean]

Internships are usually reserved for students or recent graduates

[hearty island]

i'm so hyped for the centene internship, even though the term "problem management" seems so vague

i'll probably say "business analytics intern" on my LinkedIn

[fleet pendant]

Hey, does someone have any tips on making a bit of money with programming?
most of the time i like backend programming and i can do it pretty ok i guess

[sleek egret]

I heard that programmers give their work away. Thus, logically, no money can be made from programming.

[near zenith]

Most of my code is open source XD

[sleek egret]

see?

[near zenith]

But ur logic is not viable.

[near ocean]

Apply to a job, work, get paid
Alternatives are much harder

[sleek egret]

At some companies, the work part seems optional

[cobalt plank]

is there any book on all the paths of the tech industry in terms of jobs?

[fleet pendant]

hmm
the thing is i cant rlly apply for a Job
still go to School so dont have rlly time for "normal" Job

[true harness]

what about part time

[hearty island]

what about internships

[fleet pendant]

could be option if its from Home and my Parents allow to it
but i think most companies want a guy that also studied it

[fleet pendant]

and internships doesnt get paid in my country

[sleek egret]

no

[near ocean]

You could work other jobs then, it doesnt have to be programming related if some allowance is the goal

[sleek egret]

When I was in university, I fixed xerox copy machines

when I was younger, I delivered pizzas

Oh, I also did some data entry at a law firm while in uni

what sort of odd jobs did you do a uni, mariosis?

[hearty island]

i intern as a non-tech related job as a project management intern, kinda hate it, but it makes $20 an hour

[sleek egret]

What does a project mgmt intern do?

[hearty island]

jackshit, i just make progress slides and do busy work like data entry

[sleek egret]

I don't know, $20/hr seems pretty good for doing jackshit

[sleek egret]

if you didn't do those things, who would?

[hearty island]

probably my boss, or some other college student

[sleek egret]

Do you think it makes sense to pay someone 3x more to do something someone who is paid 1/3 can do?

[hearty island]

nope

imo the internship is a waste of money on the company's part, i have no clue why i get paid

i personally just think they have money to throw around, so why not hire an intern

[sleek egret]

maybe they're trying to help the next generation get their foot in the door?

you know, out of the goodness of their hearts. because people are nice that way.

[hearty island]

i just wish i was assigned something more meaningful that would help make my resume stronger. i have, they don't really respond

[true harness]

why don't you ask?

[hearty island]

i thought i would have a solid understanding of healthcare by the time the role finished... it started in august

[sleek egret]

it takes around 30 years to begin to have an understanding of how the healthcare system works

[hearty island]

yeah i really didn't know what i was getting into

[sleek egret]

hey, on the plus side, all that crazy complexity means that there's a shit ton of money to be made in healthcare

[hearty island]

that's why i'm excited about centene, they spoke about full time opps after the internship

i think this company that i'm currently interning for now might give me a full-time role too as a PM, but it is so boring

there's no real direction on what the hell they even do

[sleek egret]

hey man, it could be worse. a buddy of mine is at a defense subcontractor. that manages other subcontractors for the prime contractor. so... he manages managers that manages managers for other managers.

100% serious there. and he hates his life.

[hearty island]

i really fucked up missing my uhg internship last summer, that was an excellent opportunity

[sleek egret]

united health care?

[hearty island]

yes

[sleek egret]

another buddy of mine used to be a district manager there. small world.

[hearty island]

that internship was paying $26 an hour and $35 overtime

[sleek egret]

he ran the cleveland office for a while because we grew up in ohio. we both hate ohio. so ironic.

[hearty island]

ohio is a meme now lol

i wonder what the hell happened with oracle

[sleek egret]

oracle still makes many billions of $ of revenue every year

[hearty island]

i know

i probably shouldn't burn a bridge with centene if i get accepted by oracle too

[sleek egret]

that's a good general rule. you never know when past contacts can help you out

[hearty island]

i can build up to oracle later if i want to

[delicate bane]

someone made a joke, an MLE i follow: with all the new libraries/frameworks being released in the DS/ML space, maybe in the future, itll reach the point where itll be like frontend engineers where they just accept the fact they go through X amount of libraries/frameworks/etc. in 5 years or so, rinse and repeat for eternity, and that that is what it means to be a frontend dev

[hearty island]

i want to find some open source projects to collaborate on

[sleek egret]

have you considered just starting a business instead?

then you can be one of the oppressors instead of one of the oppressed!

[hearty island]

lol

[autumn hare]

hii

is it worth it bto become a py dev

or do i change to java /c**

[hearty island]

depends on what you want to do with python

[sleek egret]

also depends on what "worth it" means to you

no job ads or "looking for work" posts on this discord server

thems the rules. I didn't make them. don't blame me.

[delicate bane]

that was my former field and i can tell you its a hot mess in the US

[sleek egret]

congrats on your successful escape!

[delicate bane]

ty.

i mean idk if its a true escape since the company im currently working for is a healthcare tech company but ill take what i can get lmao

[hearty island]

i am entering the hellscape, wish me luck 😄

[delicate bane]

ehh you havent seen the actual front lines.

[sleek egret]

wishes damian_78 luck

[hearty island]

that's true

[delicate bane]

plus healthcare insurance i heard is a good path

[hearty island]

lol i can't even code twosum

[delicate bane]

why do you need to code. arent you accepting a data analyst position

[hearty island]

yes

[delicate bane]

unless you meant stuff like the pydata stack. thats easy to pick up. youll be fine

[hearty island]

pydata stack? oh i see

[delicate bane]

yeah. numpy, pandas, a viz library, etc.

[hearty island]

no i was just doing twosum just to see if i could do it

[delicate bane]

my personal favorite is plotly but thats me

[hearty island]

i'm very bad at leetcode

[delicate bane]

is your goal to become a developer? otherwise i dont see leetcode mattering too much. especially if you are thinking of going the PM route or something

[hearty island]

nah it's to be a PM, i just was on leetcode for fun

[delicate bane]

gotcha

[hearty island]

i think i should find open source data science projects, maybe write documentation

[delicate bane]

PM is an interesting role. especially bc it seems like there are different types of PMs

[hearty island]

it is

[velvet fox]

What are the skills that we need to have to become a developer? Which is the language of preference on this journey - python, c++ or Java?

[delicate bane]

wait arent you already a developer? i remember you sharing your story about your manager/team situation yesterday

[near ocean]

no such thing as best language, use whatever makes you happy

[velvet fox]

I'm a fresher... Want to expand my skills

Like I've tried all Java, python, C++ made some projects in angular too

[delicate bane]

DW had a good message about languages and what areas they are typically used for

[velvet fox]

Jus wanted to know the current scenario that's going on

[gritty rivet]

Keep one eye on the job market in your area and the other on whatever is most interesting to you personally... in fact I believe it's really your personal interest that matters most, because that's what's going to keep you learning. It doesn't matter what languages you know, it matters that you're good at what you do

[delicate bane]

dunno if you listen to podcasts but this one was interesting https://open.spotify.com/episode/5uvveNjMREOHjrxz9cEisg?si=R9yP17qnSUeFQcEaqYjCmw

• The Technical PM
• The Analytics PM
• The Marketing PM
• The Get Sh*t Done PM
• The Visionary PM

[velvet fox]

I actually wanted to try out spring framework and spring boot... But was hesitant to begin as i was confused to choose between angular react and spring

Oh wait... I'm mistaken... I'm jus comparing apples with oranges

Angular react are frontend whilst spring is backed... What are alternatives to spring?

[gritty rivet]

This is a Python server... so you'll find lots of people working with Django, Flask and FastAPI. Those are the main Python backend frameworks

[sleek egret]

to me, if a user interacts with it, it's front end

[true harness]

library writers now considered frontend

[mortal wedge]

Well, there is usually a distinction between developer and user

[fluid fern]

Imo the developer path isnt about what languages or frameworks I know but is about how can I take an idea and translate it into the real world with as much efficiency as possible, you can learn all the frameworks and languages there are but if you cant execute on a vague idea then you've ultimately failed

[mortal wedge]

But I know a company that created their proprietary lang and code new things for that lang in their lang

So in that case the distinction between dev and user isn't really there

[fluid fern]

One way to make it so that you're always 1 step behind lol

[sleek egret]

how about one step beyond?

[mortal wedge]

The goal is to be streets ahead

[sleek egret]

It is Madness!

(get it?)

[mortal wedge]

I was hoping someone would ask me what streets ahead means

[sleek egret]

guess not. y'all are philistines

[scarlet dust]

hello everyone

[sleek egret]

yar

[real oyster]

if you have to ask you're streets behind

[sleek egret]

ok, I'm calling it a day

[mortal wedge]

What are you, God?

[sleek egret]

yes?

[buoyant seal]

https://youtu.be/Zxc20saM8DA

[sleek egret]

is that you?

[mint laurel]

I'm so lost

I started as a costumer service, and then got promoted as a zd admin because of my statistical skills, now I thought my self postgre，bs4, pandas and I felt suck with DA analyst path, but I like to make tools that are intuitive and easy based on the prob noticed in the data

Which path is this, or will be suitable for me, BA? SA? Full stack?

[sleek egret]

you started servicing costumes?

and what is a zd? and why would one require an admin?

[mint laurel]

Zendesk, something like a mini salesforce

Crm iirc

[sleek egret]

I see

[mint laurel]

Basically messing with triggers, automations, drop of Apis then sqls (zd home made) I'm just really confused

It makes me feel happy seeing other people use my integration or app flawlessly

I got laid off with the trend

[mortal wedge]

So, definitely past experience kind of naturally pigeonholes you to certain roles. This is because employers want a safe bet, they want someone who has done X role in the past because the assumption is that they can do X role now.

That being said, it is possible to switch career paths by focusing on your transferrable skills. Skills that apply both to the role you were in and the role you want to move into it. It's typically a little more challenging, but it's definitely doable and possible.

[mortal wedge]

If asked why you left your current position, be sure to respond with this. It shows that it was a faultless parting

[mint laurel]

All I got in mind right now is continue with the admin thing and then self study for a year or so, I mean ut full stack but at least slack intercative app

Then build my portfolio and take some fivers

Too add some exp

[mortal wedge]

Sounds like a plan. It's hard to transfer career paths because you're essentially working two jobs, you're working your regular job and you're trying to develop your skills/apply for other positions. If there's a way you can utilize skills or do projects in your current role that would be good for your future career path, try to do that as well.

For example, when I was working customer service, you could check certain values by logging in to the web/mobile app, but you could also access that same information with SQL queries. So I leaned towards queries to get my practice on

[mint laurel]

The plan RightNow is to have some cert in the admin field and them some fiver projects to show to the employer

[balmy latch]

Hey! Good evening!

Could I have someone’s advice?

[mortal wedge]

What's up?

[balmy latch]

I just wanted to ask about a career advice

[cerulean spade]

guys CS50 is a complete course?

[mint laurel]

Thanks a lot,cleared up a lot of things, I'll remember this and return someday the favor 🙏

[balmy latch]

I just finished a 3 months course, the Python Intermediate and I don’t know what I should do after

I want to start learning data analytics

But, idk how should I start and actually if it’s worth it and how long it will take

Should I go to data Analytics pathway or backend

[cerulean spade]

this depends of you, what do you like?

[balmy latch]

I am interested in data analysis, but I am not so good in math

And when I see data analyst, doing a great job at 20-21 , I feel I am so behind at 27

[cerulean spade]

the first things that you need change is your mind

[balmy latch]

I feel that I am not good at all, even though I passed the test

[cerulean spade]

this happen with me everytime, but this is main fight on world of programming, imposter syndrome

[balmy latch]

I have a medical background, I wanted to start and learn bioinformatics, but I feel it’s not my thing.

[cerulean spade]

this is very interristing

[cerulean spade]

i feel this soo

[balmy latch]

After i understand that really data science and data analysis fulfills my needs, like working remotely, being proud that I learn something so cool

After 2 bachelors, a masters I feel that I can’t learn anything properly in deep.. am I old or stupid 😂

[cerulean spade]

this is normal, are things of your head

[mortal wedge]

Let me put your mind at ease. There will always be people more experienced/smarter than you at a various ages. Seek to do what is best for you instead of comparing yourself to colleagues.

[cerulean spade]

i pass for this everyday, this that Ultimilk say is big truly, this happen because of comparing yourself with another peoples.

[dreamy shadow]

Sounds like you should explore what Data Science actually is. As this field requires a strong fundamental understanding of math.

[cerulean spade]

but the secret of mathematics is the teacher's didactics

[mortal wedge]

If you don't mind me asking, what did you get your masters in?

[balmy latch]

Medical biotechnology

[mortal wedge]

Oh neat! I'm biomedical engineering. There's lots of python roles in medical biotech 🙂

[balmy latch]

The faculty was biomedical engineering, we did something in between

[mortal wedge]

Nice

[balmy latch]

are you working on your speciality?

Coding and working in biotech industry?

[mortal wedge]

Yeah. I'm working at a Neuroscience company that sells medical devices/treatments. Well, right now I'm procrastinating that work >.>

[balmy latch]

Uhhh, that’s so cool

How should I proceed?

[dreamy prism]

I wanted to do biomedical engineering too

[cerulean spade]

what a biomedical do?

[dreamy prism]

Decided to do Information Systems Engineering

[balmy latch]

Good choice 😂

[dreamy prism]

It's basically dedicated to all medical technologies.

[balmy latch]

We mostly did nano particles filled with medicine

[cerulean spade]

like change DNA, this things?

[balmy latch]

Yeah:)) obtaining DNA , performing PCR, genotyping

[dreamy prism]

Lol, is it? Biomedical engineering looked very interesting but I wanted something more general

[balmy latch]

Yeah, I did it and now I want to learn informatics, because I feel useless 😂

[cerulean spade]

Billionaires want to raise super expert kids, have you seen that?

[dreamy prism]

Yeah, it indeed has more area to cover. You can do anything

[balmy latch]

Yeah

With a background in informatics you can work everywhere, without a language barrier and actually with a good salary

But for me, for example .. I am in Germany rn, without German I can’t do anything

Without German language I mean

[mortal wedge]

So basically, when you want to switch focus in your careers you need to be able to highlight transferrable skills. If you're moving to a different role but still in medical technology, this shouldn't be too challenging. You can make a good case for why you might even have a leg up on pure data scientists/ SWEs.

[dreamy prism]

What do you do in biomedical engineering? As your role

[balmy latch]

I actually didn’t work in the field, only studied

Practical skills I leaned only in the lab

[dreamy prism]

I see. So it's not really related to informatics

[balmy latch]

No, nothing

It’s not related at all

[mortal wedge]

IT may not be, but it will be your task to convince somebody that it is 😛

[balmy latch]

What do you mean?

[dreamy prism]

They really convinced me it was at some point 😭

[mortal wedge]

<@&831776746206265384>

[ivory sluice]

!mute 1052358387473600593

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @austere imp until <t:1670976357:f> (1 hour).

[balmy latch]

I wrote a 160+ code in Python, and I was proud of myself :)) and I don’t know what to do after

[mortal wedge]

Let's say I have a career in dentistry and want to get a career as a software developer. I would have to try to find examples of how being a good dentist would make me a good software developer, in order to get hired as one.

[white relic]

switching to a different role in a different industry is a difficult move, but you don't have to do it all at once.

[balmy latch]

Understood

[mortal wedge]

IS your goal to learn or is your goal to get hired? Or both?

[dreamy shadow]

Writing software for those magical dentist camera thingy lol

[balmy latch]

Both , I am gonna be useless not understanding what I am doing

[mortal wedge]

Dentistry to software developer would be a hard sell, but maybe you could do it for the company that makes dentistry software, yeah

[dreamy shadow]

You can always be the SME at the software company.

[white relic]

I know of a surprising number of nurses who transitioned to tech through informatics.

[balmy latch]

Understood, to make a bridge between my background and my wishes :))

[mortal wedge]

!resources Well, for learning, everyone is different. I would encourage you to find out what works best for you. Maybe take a look at Python resources and see what looks interesting. Personal projects are also popular ways to practice. Try to focus on something that requires knowledge/understanding of the field you want to go to. If you are not sure that those topics are, browse job postings or ask around on the server.

Getting hired is a little different. I would try to collaborate on an open source project in your industry. For example, the biggest neuroscience module in Python is MNE. I would try to showcase my contributions to this module when being hired for roles that would utilize it. But collaboration shows you can work well with other people and if your changes are accepted by a major library it is assumed that you have a strong working knowledge of that library which is a plus.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[dreamy shadow]

I feel like my job's become more of playing telephone than actually doing work these past few months.

[delicate bane]

oh yeah? tell me about it

[mortal wedge]

oof. Sounds awful

[balmy latch]

Could everyone who wants to share their background and how did they landed in tech?

[dreamy shadow]

I get reached out for tasks not in my responsibilities, so I bounce the requests

[spark cobalt]

I'm a high school graduate, graduated this year. How I landed in tech? Luck. Add on getting a job before massive layoff spree and add on getting a job at a company I'd actually want to work for a really long time, really fucking lucky.

[dreamy shadow]

Also, our DS team's trying to implement a dashboard for business end, in the sense of providing aggregated data on the data we have in our data lake. Their solution is some obscure way of creating filter table (which only later I understood was a simple look up table) and a snapshot of our data(?) I have yet to see the second table. Sounds like a long round about way that really should be more of data engineering end, than DS team.

[spark cobalt]

Self taught for about 2 years, was during COVID era so I had like 8+ hour of free time from not having to commit to school seriously everyday. Was able to get a lot done.

[dreamy shadow]

Covid was 2 years ago. feel old yet

[spark cobalt]

3 years ago

[balmy latch]

I hate COVID

[dreamy shadow]

Well, 2019 wasn't really the lock down yet.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah fair enough. Like 2 2/3 years then. Feels so long ago yeah it's crazy

[balmy latch]

Because of it I couldn’t do my practice in the lab, so this is the main reason why I get rejection when I apply for PhD

[spark cobalt]

Frozen is almost 10 years old. Toy Story been out for 28 years like bruh.

[balmy latch]

And also my father passed away on my birthday, because of complication of COVID

[dreamy shadow]

Masters is more than enough for tech jobs. Except maybe R&D position within a tech company.

[balmy latch]

Let it Rott in hell, and everyone who made it in the lab

[dreamy shadow]

4 people I know with PhDs, not one said it was worth it.

[spark cobalt]

My company is entirely made up of overachievers. Everyone here has a Master's or PhD.

[dreamy shadow]

Masters is only 2 years of commitment. PHD is an additional 2-4(?)

[spark cobalt]

All hiring for even the lowest position starts at Masters required.

Everyone so sweaty aiya. People alienate me for it.

[balmy latch]

I thought it will be a buffer, doing a PhD a will give me time to actually adapt to Germany, an income, working on something new and actually giving the pleasure to call myself a Doctor

[dreamy shadow]

I mean, there are companies that still have GPA requirements. Those are companies I sure as hell don't want to work for.

Malcolm Gladwell had a good podcast episode on how a company would only hire for Ivy league schools, even though a mid tier candidate was a much better fit.

[balmy spade]

Two decades of working retail/labor industry. Started shaking hands with the local community college technology director, board, and others. Took at tour of a tech company, liked what I saw and applied on the tour. Got the interview, pushed for a position that leveraged my skill in customer service.
Started on a tier 2 support team. Mastered my craft as quickly as I could. Focused on problem solving root causes instead of the tickets. Four years in moved into an application engineer role. Continued pushing. A year later moved into incident management and software engineering.

[balmy latch]

That’s a journey

[balmy spade]

It's just the outside of the journey too.

[balmy latch]

So.. I just want to ask , if any of you were in my place, would you do a 6 months internship for free in order to get a spot perusing your PhD? 6 months for free……

[dreamy shadow]

No?

[balmy spade]

I would not internship for free.

But I don't want a PhD so that's bias.

[balmy latch]

I got 2 rejections after I applied for a PhD because of the lack of practice

[dreamy shadow]

So keep applying? It's all a numbers game.

[balmy latch]

And they were super good opportunities

I applied , but I know it’s useless since I don’t have enough practice

They are very hard on me, and I know it will be the same

[true harness]

universities care about your ability to research, that's kind of it

[dreamy shadow]

They're applying for a PhD, not PhD positions from what I understand.

[true harness]

that's what i meant, sorry

[balmy latch]

First of all, I would like to thank you for taking the time to come down and visit the lab. Although I could not be here, the reports were uniformly positive that you have a great personality and would be a good fit. There were also very positive remarks about your intelligence and abilities. However, as you pointed out yourself, experience at the bench is lacking and unfortunately, this is a position where there is a very short time schedule and very little time to adapt and learn all the techniques you would require. Thus ultimately, we must take a candidate who has more experience and can have a quick start in the project.

I am sorry I cannot give better news at this time, and I genuinely wish the best with your future and career. Please feel free to contact me again in the future if after, for example as six-month internship in another lab, you are still interested in pursuing your PhD studies.

That was my rejection..

Saaadly

I liked the guy and the team, they were so cool

[sleek egret]

wow, so polite

[delicate bane]

youre lucky if you have actual data engineers. business always never knowing what to do with DS. saw a post about this today. dunno if you want to see it too lmao

[dreamy shadow]

Technically we do have an offshore team that handles the BDL

Not sure if our DS team even knows they exist...

[balmy latch]

Polite, because he fooled me, I’ve told him from the beginning that I lack experience, not to get my hopes up.. and he was coole with that.. and afterwards this.. BOMB

[delicate bane]

so what youre telling me is they def dont know how anything works lmao

[dreamy shadow]

TBF, Idk how any of the BDL side works either. I only know where the repos lies and what scripts are being run lol.

[balmy latch]

I guess I am offtopic :))

[dreamy shadow]

Also, I think I'm not going to be hearing back from the 2nd interview place either. Their response cadence been about < 1.5 week, it's been about 2 weeks now.

[delicate bane]

im guessing you dont want to see that post. it was pretty good too

[dreamy shadow]

Share it, I'll skim it over.

[turbid bobcat]

Is being a FullStack a good goal? Or should you specialize in something ?

[true harness]

isn't fullstack specializing

[dreamy shadow]

I thought so too. You decide on the full stack right? (Pun not intended)

[delicate bane]

you should just add me as a friend. that way i can DM you these

[delicate bane]

i find that even if you are a fullstack dev, you usually end up specializing in something or other

[dreamy shadow]

Those points are correct. Especially the risk, as the expectation is for each project to always magically succeed. Even if it was doomed from the start because business wanted a pink unicorn, and the best you could do is paint the horse pink and add a paper cup.

[delicate bane]

bro seriously. its wild

like i dont think software has these expectations (well maybe just not as much)

[dreamy shadow]

Sent.

I'm not senior enough to be on the front end of tackling request from business. So that's partly good lol

Well, it's good as in less problems, but also less money

[sleek egret]

it's too bad python doesn't use fun instead of def

it would make programming python more fun

[balmy latch]

😂😂

Fun a function :))

[sleek egret]

Everything T.Dobbins said can apply to every subfield of software development

[delicate bane]

dw. next role. i believe in you

[delicate bane]

you cant ever win, huh?

[balmy latch]

I guess I am irrelevant 😂

[sleek egret]

I decided to always win. You can decide this too.

[dreamy shadow]

Data Governance with their bat be like: THIS IS PII, THAT IS PII, EVERYTHING IS PII

[sleek egret]

If Rex is always winning, it just stands to reason that you are always...

[dreamy shadow]

Winning too

[sleek egret]

woah, way to make things difficult for Valenitina1234

[balmy latch]

I don’t like to push myself and since I am new in this chat

[dreamy shadow]

Apparently our year end review takes like 4 months: Nov -> Feb.

[balmy latch]

And I don’t like to interrupt

[sleek egret]

like salt 'n peppa once said, "Push it. push it real good."

[balmy latch]

:)) what do I have to push? People were talking and sharing their mutual interest

My topic burned up 😂 so yeah:)) finita la comedia

[sleek egret]

I'm afraid salt 'n pepa never really clarified what exactly was being pushed. the closest they got was the line, "Can't you hear the music's pumpin' hard like I wish you would? / Now push it"

I hope there are no children present

[balmy latch]

😂

[white relic]

that's pretty typical

[dreamy shadow]

Good to know. At my start-up it was just 1 day.

[white relic]

yeah startups are a different ball game

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, still trying to adapt to the slower pace. Having a harder time understanding when deliverables actually are.

[mortal wedge]

You're not asked to set your own timelines?

Maybe it's working at a smaller companies, but either we have external deadlines (We need the product by the end of the year for X convention) or I'm setting my own deadlines because my boss acknowledges that I know more about him in the field I'm working in.

[dreamy shadow]

Actually, I think once my boss left I basically got forgotten.
My new manager isn't great at passing work to me, so I've been asking to help on some projects from another team's manager. Edit: Grammar

[mortal wedge]

That's a uh... interesting environment to be working in

[dreamy shadow]

The team I'm technically in is an odd spot to be in, as it is a "Business DS" role without being an analyst role.

Since we have an actual DS team, and my manager is trying to get me to do more of what I was hired to do (DS). Hence the reaching out to the other team's manager.

I guess this is what happens when one's in insurance.

[mortal wedge]

I like having clear and concrete deliverables/projects. Not sure how I'd function in that sort of environment

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, time to put in more applications this weekend.

[mortal wedge]

It depends on what career path someone wants to take, but I'm fairly aggressive with career advancement. I try to navigate into high impact visible roles. Then leveraging experience at the role to move up or get a better job elsewhere. If my company was locking me out of that paradigm, I'd be applying to work elsewhere

[dreamy shadow]

I don't feel like I fit into insurance. It's too much domain knowledge compared to actual tech. I mean, you can literally do the work in excel sheets.

[mortal wedge]

Maybe not everyone is this way, but I find it hard to do well at a job I don't have at least some degree of interest/passion for.

I think being a good fit for your company and your company being a good fit for you goes a long way towards helping someone have a less stressful life and being happier overall

[dreamy shadow]

I mean, there are pros and cons of staying in insurance. I haven't really listed them all yet. But vacation days are an obvious one, e.g. not working on Friday after Thanksgiving, even though some people I know in retail did have to work.

[mortal wedge]

Sure, but a lot of those perks are pretty common in software roles.

You could also stay in insurance, just at a different company

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, too bad DS in insurance will hit you with that 8 YoE bat

[delicate bane]

bruh just move out of insurance lel

youll most likely be happier and probably paid more too

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, but other industry hits you with the lack of YoE too

[delicate bane]

eh just ignore that part for now

[dreamy shadow]

I'll def be applying more this weekend.

[blazing ivy]

remember this convo?? just found this https://youtu.be/o_m59nMWny4

[delicate bane]

man this is so clickbait-y

this is probably my cue to leave for now

[blazing ivy]

cue to leave the industry you mean?

[balmy spade]

Are you in the industry?

[sleek egret]

were you hijacked, clay?

[fluid fern]

Do u even work as a dev?

[spark cobalt]

Ah yes, take YouTube overdramatization as fact. Coming from someone with only 4 months experience in the industry, and btw as an intern. Best place to get your information.

As much as I love Tim and many of the other content creators, most of them have such a limited amount of experience that it's hard to take their industry assessments seriously. Tbh a lot of their content too.

[mortal wedge]

Clickbait basically

[spark cobalt]

Btw, to date, GPT hasn't replaced anyone. So not exactly sure what's 'official' about this video.

[fluid fern]

Needs more monkeys on the bandwagon it'll work out

[spark cobalt]

He has all the LinkedIn influencers who's overhyping this shit

[vapid jay]

Could y'all tell me if this is a good cv project. Make a program that can merge data of different time frequency in multiple ways.

[mortal wedge]

Can you explain what you mean by time frequency?

[vapid jay]

Like one series is monthly, second is daily, the third is hourly

[fluid fern]

Not to mention projects depend on what job u want, there's no thing as a 1 project fits all unless ur fine taking the lowest possible role

[vapid jay]

Got to do one project at a time

[fluid fern]

Yes but i cant tell u if its worth if i dont know what kind of position u want

[vapid jay]

I want to do data analysis stuff. Working with data merging seems like a good idea

[mortal wedge]

Sure, sounds interesting, but what's your strategy for the missing values due to the time discrepency?

[spark cobalt]

Merge as in put the data in a sequential order? Do you just assume the date for something with only a month?

[balmy spade]

nonsense. My task board fits four projects in a sprint with ease.

[spark cobalt]

@balmy spade What happened to your colors

[mortal wedge]

When working with data, missing values is actually a pretty substantial part of the job. So how you handle those missing values will be noteworthy, and you'd have to speak to/justify your choice. Fill them with NaNs? Use interpolation? Consider constant from the last update?

[dreamy spade]

It even had to come to the point where I am watching interview questions videos on YouTube. Applying for a position is a bloody battle. I have to be that warrior who comes out on top in this bloody battle arena that's called being a candidate; Showing no mercy, Becoming the last man standing and eliminating the other candidates who's also trying to take the spot

[fluid fern]

Decent but try a larger scale imo, creating a data collection with different time frames isn't what I would say is a perfered thing but a minimum

This is my opinion though so perhaps im too harsh

[dreamy spade]

I've never had much difficulty in getting an entry-level/intern position before in my life. I use to have warehouse jobs and it would take me up to a week maximum to get a position in a warehouse. Now for tech it's exponentially much more difficult for me.

[spark cobalt]

Well, one is (respectfully) significantly less skilled than another.

Also warehouse jobs are pretty in demand iirc, compared to tech where you can argue entry level market is saturated af.

One generally requires a degree to even have your resume looked at, another doesn't. Do you have a CS degree by any chance?

[balmy spade]

What is the challenge you are facing? If you've held other jobs before you've got leverage and experience for the interview.

[true harness]

who knew, jobs with more competition and harder to get

[mortal wedge]

If it helps, most people experience the same thing for their first dev job. I'm going for my second major dev job and it is leagues easier than when I applied initially. It took many months to get my first job, now I'm literally having trouble keeping track of all the interviews and interview requests I'm getting.

[fluid fern]

I don't think being a warehouse worker transfers well to becoming a software developer, maybe

[balmy spade]

Maybe not a software developer directly but you are talking about internship/associate positions. If you've held a regular job before you a pile of soft-skills that do apply to the work.

[fluid fern]

I suppose so for internships

[vapid jay]

Why i can't import telegram???

[balmy spade]

For far more than internships but without an understanding of the skills, that's the starting point.

[mortal wedge]

It may be harder, but you want to focus on any transferrable skills you can find. You may have to be pretty creative. Do you document stuff while doing warehouse work? Say that you're good at following documentation protocol. Regular schedule? Talk about your consistency.

[balmy spade]

Too many folks underestimate just how much you can bring to the table if you've got work experience.

[vapid jay]

ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'telegram'

[balmy spade]

You are probably looking for #❓｜how-to-get-help or #python-discussion .

[mortal wedge]

This channel is for career discussion. Also, you have to install it before you can import it.

[fluid fern]

Too bad, welcome to the industry, honestly regret not taking advantage of my universities master program in 4 years, could have gotten 10k more than what I could have gotten lol

Then again, i sucked at academics

[vapid jay]

But i already install it

[fluid fern]

Telegram has no use in your career i bet

[delicate bane]

much of it doesnt, but my favorite data creator interviewed such an individual who has sucessfully made the transition from warehouse worker to data analyst. pretty neat story.

[mortal wedge]

If you ask your question in a help channel or in #python-discussion feel free to mention me and I will try to help

[vapid jay]

Noo i use telegram 24 hours but it's first time trying to code

[spark cobalt]

I transitioned from restaurant worker to SWE if it counts

[fluid fern]

Not saying it's out of the realm of possibility but it takes a lot of self dedication

[mortal wedge]

Transitioned from being a phone bitch customer service professional to SWE

[spark cobalt]

[mortal wedge]

God I think that was one of the worst possible jobs

[delicate bane]

it does. he got fired at the beginning of the pandemic and everything

[fluid fern]

Lmfao

[spark cobalt]

I was working in the back of Red Lobster

[mortal wedge]

I used the pandemic and hiring freezes during that time to study programming like crazy

[spark cobalt]

Yep. COVID was junior year of my HS. Literally just did programming day and night school was just such a joke during COVID

[mortal wedge]

Hah, yeah

[delicate bane]

if anyones actually interested in this, i can DM you the podcast link. just message me.

[dreamy spade]

This is actually one of the issues I have with most companies. "degree.". I'm currently in my final week of my computer programming program. I'm not out of the woods yet. I have two more exams to write.

Companies requiring candidates to have a degree is infuriating because It's entirely possible to learn software development on your own. Secondly, some of the material in some of my courses that were taught in my school are outdated and other were trivial such as elective courses that have nothing to do with the program I enrolled in and courses like IT Project Management and Technical Communication. This is why I question the logic of companies wanting candidates to have degree when some of these academic institutions are teaching outdated and trivial material.

[mortal wedge]

Schools were not built for it. They tried, many failed

[mortal wedge]

The problem isn't that they need degrees, the problem is that they need to verify you have the skills you claim to. Having a degree is a quick and easy way to check that you've had at least some training in the subject.

They're essentially relying on the college to vet you and for larger companies (and most companies) they are trying to find ways to narrow down the candidate field

[spark cobalt]

Hiring anyone entry level is an inherent risk, especially the first job. Having a degree allows an employer to safely know you know a certain set of things.

[fluid fern]

They call it financial filtering, also to weed out those who are too "exotic" in their ideas to shake the industry

Not to mention having someone from within the company recommend you increases your odds more than 2 folds or more

[mortal wedge]

I can say I am the king of all programmers and all tremble before me, but how can they be sure I'm not full of it?

If you don't have a degree, I highly recommend networking and hustling. Get someone to vouch for you and you may have a chance.

[spark cobalt]

Didn't get my job through connections, but going to a lot of dev meetups, reaching into family friends and their network, etc. allowed me to get a pretty decent flow of jobs where I was able to get referred.

If you're in SJ, there's this dev meetup that happens everyday called Startup to IPO, they helped me a lot

I should go and thank them. They gave me so much knowledge

[balmy spade]

I don't know how you define connections then. Dev meetups, family, friends, and networks would count as that to me.

[spark cobalt]

I have the same definition.

[fluid fern]

Ngl, current job i had a family member had a old friend who worked at this company as a regional manager, he decided to do a quick interview with me and then gave me a recommendation to another team with his approval, after an interview that was it

[mortal wedge]

This story doesn't make me look great, but I accepted a position that started in a month and required Python. I didn't know any Python at the time. So during that month I studied like crazy and became fluent thanks to this community. So I try to give back whenever I can.

I like to think of it as "retroactive honesty"

[smoky quest]

In abstract, you may obtain the same knowledge on your own since you would be the same person.
But the environment matters, the structure matters, plus there is the whole thing about now knowing what you don't know and not having enough experience to know what you should know. In addition, people may talk big about how they could learn the same on their own, they will seldom commit the amount of time and effort required to do. Going to university will force you to put that amount of time and effort
So all in all, university does make a huge difference in terms of education and outcome

[spark cobalt]

Makes you look better

Reverse psychology asf

[mortal wedge]

hah, thanks

[balmy spade]

They hired someone that fit what they wanted to work with. You proved them right. Seems legit to me.

[spark cobalt]

If they hired you for a role that required Python knowing you didn't know any, they must've had a lot of trust in your abilities.

[fluid fern]

In the end, the way things work in the world boil down to the people you connect with and your ability capitalize on said opportunity before it disappears

[spark cobalt]

Connecting with people is fun either way

[mortal wedge]

They didn't know. I told them I'd used it before and I had, but for like one thing, lol. But I've been programming for a long time with many languages, so could confidently answer any general programming questions.

[summer roost]

Have you seen https://github.com/golergka/advent-of-code-2022-with-chat-gpt ? It's someone trying to solve https://adventofcode.com/ problems using ChatGPT

it hasn't gone very well for them. 🙂

[dreamy spade]

I have sent out 200+ applications this year. I had two interviews and I couldn't pass the first stage.

[mortal wedge]

lolol I was wondering

[summer roost]

they got 1.5 of them - which is still fairly impressive

[mortal wedge]

HAve you had a resume review? If you're not getting interviews, that's the first thing I would look to

[summer roost]

but they had to do a lot of coaching on day 2 part 1.

[summer roost]

what was the first stage like?

[peak halo]

have you asked in #career-advice?

[mortal wedge]

We're there 🙂

[dreamy spade]

One was I got interviewed by a human , the other was an A.I.

[peak halo]

thought this was pygen. mfw.

[mortal wedge]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has done this, haha

[peak halo]

the first message I read was about ChatGPT and that disoriented me 😦 (which is fine, I'm sure it's on-topic in its context. which I didn't read.)

[dreamy spade]

I thought the human interview was pretty good, the second one I choked in one of my answers to the A.I and the interface wouldn't let me re-record.

[summer roost]

people keep suggesting programmers will be replaced by AI

[summer roost]

an AI? That sounds... weird...

[peak halo]

well, as long as I'm the one making language models, I guess I'll be the last to go.

[mortal wedge]

Getting a job boils down to three areas that don't necessarily overlap.

1. Getting interviews - This is mostly about your resume.
2. Nailing interviews - This takes practice for coding interviews and having good explanations for your weaknesses present in your resume/experience while being able to speak confidently about your strengths
3. Not getting fired - this is how well you do at your actual job.

[spark cobalt]

, still Gucci