career-advice

[harsh river]

not everyone does

[vapid jay]

Wow I think your right...thank you for the advice I'll make sure to apply it

And how many jobs out there do that? Even if it takes 16 years to reach that goal with consequences?

[smoky quest]

It's a classic in management

[harsh river]

there are so many many jobs that let you do that

[vapid jay]

List them

[harsh river]

https://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/majors-that-pay-you-back/bachelors?

[summer roost]

Let's estimate that your career takes up about 50% of the waking hours on a work day, that work days make up around 60% of a year, and you work that job for about 40 years out of a lifetime of 80 years. Those are all reasonable estimates, and they put the total amount of time spent on work at 15% of all of the waking hours in your entire life. Choosing to spend 15% of your entire life on something you hate is really bleak.

[vapid jay]

A lot of the jobs in the list will involve data science

[smoky quest]

All the jobs I have had for instance :p
But I am do spend time validating them

[vapid jay]

Which is STILL programming

It’s even a requirement in for those degrees

Yes EVEN in accounting

[summer roost]

list them

[true harness]

did you look at it? only a few do, and only tangentially

[harsh river]

https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/top-100-highest-paying-jobs

[vapid jay]

All engineering jobs, financial jobs, stats jobs, math jobs

[harsh river]

many of these jobs have nothing to do with CS

[spark cobalt]

You have an SWE job, do you use data science there?

[vapid jay]

Have programming, that’s why programming is a literacy

[summer roost]

I know accountants, they don't do data science, nor how to code.
I know civil engineers, they don't do data science, nor know how to code.
I know biochem engineers, they don't do data science, nor know how to code.

[spark cobalt]

Meaning you don't. Pretty sure that clears this conversation up.

[summer roost]

ooh, I know actuaries: no data science, no coding.

[vapid jay]

We have a data science branch they use machine learning and python but I’m not working in that area right now

[true harness]

huh, surprised at the civil engineer. do they not use Matlab and friends?

[spark cobalt]

Exactly. So not all engineering jobs require data science.

[smoky quest]

do sales people count? Or Product people? Or managers?

[vapid jay]

I know someone who uses R and sql as an actuary

[spark cobalt]

1 person defines everyone else in the field.

[vapid jay]

I have no idea how that would work

[summer roost]

nope, though their work requires CAD. They also narrowly passed their one required CS class in college.

[spark cobalt]

Then don't make assumptions on things you don't know.

[summer roost]

unless you consider excel spreadsheets to be "data science", it does.

[vapid jay]

Technically yes, there is Visual Basic

[harsh river]

bruh

[vapid jay]

not code, just data entry

[spark cobalt]

This guy has to be trolling

[harsh river]

you're so desperate to be right that you're trying to force everything into your viewpoint

[summer roost]

then you're just making up a random definition for "data science", and saying that your definition applies to every job that involves data in any capacity.

[alpine onyx]

how to remove a letter from a string? if anyone can help

[true harness]

what is even the point though. so what if they all involve some level of data science

[harsh river]

#python-discussion : also use strip / replace

[vapid jay]

In my point of view telling someone to follow their dreams no matter what is toxic advice

[vapid jay]

no and they are remaining impressively calm with how frequently u and the other are attacking their person instead of their idea

[alpine onyx]

ty

[spark cobalt]

His own engineering job doesn't even require data science. So idk why he's still standing on this hill.

[summer roost]

literally not one person has said that. That's a strawman.

[harsh river]

we aren't attacking his person, but their idea

[vapid jay]

But I said money matters over job happiness

[true harness]

wilder has been

[vapid jay]

Job hapinnes matters more that’s the same as following your dreams

[summer roost]

yes. And I disagree with that. And it's possible to disagree with that and not take the polar extreme view that someone should follow their dreams at the expense of all practical considerations.

[harsh river]

you can't generalize just because of one person, which coincidentally, noir himself has been doing

[vapid jay]

in my point of view u are still pushing hard against the boundaries contain u; it will be a glorious day when you break free. i will be happy for u

I have one more question

[harsh river]

you can have job happyness and follow your dreams

[true harness]

it's more nuanced that. yes, at a certain level you need money to survive. past that, other things matter more

[vapid jay]

Do you guys like helping people?

[harsh river]

i do.

[spark cobalt]

Yes.

[smoky quest]

it depends

[delicate bane]

did you not see the book i linked? https://www.amazon.com/Good-They-Cant-Ignore-You-ebook/dp/B0076DDBJ6

[true harness]

most of the time

[harsh river]

||fine, from now on i won't like helping you|| /j

[vapid jay]

What would you help them in?

[summer roost]

your position is that the only two factors worth weighing are job satisfaction and compensation, and that compensation matters much more. My position is that job satisfaction and compensation are two factors among many that someone should consider, and that using compensation as the tie breaker between two different jobs that would both cover your living expenses and leave you with some money left over for fun, family, and retirement is less healthy and less wise than using other factors like anticipated enjoyment

[delicate bane]

anyways its much more nuanced. life isnt binary.

[spark cobalt]

With whatever they need help in, and if it's something that I'm able to explain thoroughly to them.

[spark cobalt]

By the way, are you still working at the first job you've got? Maybe it's just experience in one company that's kind forbading you to see various views. Which, you seem to not be enjoying your time at this company.

[harsh river]

want me to speak from experience? i'm in computing field major, yet over my winter break i'll be traveling to guatemala as a volunteer to help fix medical equipment at low income / low resources hospitals and communities in the country, and notice how im a computing related major yet still doing things outside of it

[vapid jay]

I want to save people, if I see myself in them, if I can help them reach happiness I will tell them the answers I wish I knew before it’s too late for them

[spark cobalt]

You can absolutely use your abilities as a SWE to do that!

[vapid jay]

do u know happiness yet?

[harsh river]

even if the answers you think you know might be wrong for those people?

[true harness]

but you just told someone to not reach happiness

[vapid jay]

Yesterday is regret, tomorrow brings anxiety, that’s why right now is a gift that’s why they call the present

[summer roost]

in economics terms, the utility of money drops as you earn more of it. If someone currently earns $25k USD, there's a huge quality of life benefit to accepting a job that pays $50k USD. If someone currently makes $100k USD, there's much less of a quality of life benefit to accepting a job that pays $125k USD.

[harsh river]

yesterday is regret, today i learn from the mistakes of yesterday so i can be happier tomorrow

[vapid jay]

nice movie quote, but do u know happiness yet?

You can find happiness right now technically, but our life’s as whole involves past present and future, life isnt about your hapiness alone

[summer roost]

so, past a certain inflection point, the value of income begins to drop, and it makes sense to consider other factors instead.

[true harness]

they would call it decreasing marginal utility

[summer roost]

they would indeed (I struggled to come up with the term, Econ was a while ago :D)

[vapid jay]

It’s about others

[spark cobalt]

Isn't that incredibly opinionated though.

[vapid jay]

Then why help people if one doesn’t care about their happiness?

[spark cobalt]

What if someone finds their happiness, their spiritual contentness, in surrounding themselves and embracing themselves in wilderness? Does it suddenly make them a person unable to be happy?

[delicate bane]

you could also look at it through a maslows hierarchy lens of sorts

[vapid jay]

The only exception to that is if they did something wrong to cause a lot of hurt

[smoky quest]

sometimes I help because the question is interesting or because I am bored

[harsh river]

are you speaking from experience?

[vapid jay]

Yes

[summer roost]

for someone who currently makes $25k USD, telling them to accept a job that pays $25k more that they think they'll hate is probably good life advice.
for someone who currently makes $250k USD, telling them to accept a job that pays $25k more that they think they'll hate is absolutely terrible life advice.

[harsh river]

finally we're getting somewhere

[spark cobalt]

While I do get that helping others can be a source of happiness, to say its the absolute foundation of happiness is wrong imo.

[smoky quest]

it could be linked as a reward function to the helper though. That also goes back to the discussion from the other day about how people do things that benefit themselves. But yeah, phrased as is here, it's a bit extreme

[spark cobalt]

You can absolute use your ability as an SWE to help others imo. There are thousands of companies out there with products/ideas that are helping billions of people.

I'm a little unsure with why you think on the SWE end, you can't enjoy your job, under the argument that helping others is your foundation for happiness.

[spark cobalt]

Yep absolutely

Like for my company now, while we are not directly helping a person, we are providing the technologies for big companies to do things that impacts hundreds of millions of people.

And it just feels great to be a part of this huge puzzle piece of making this world go round.

[summer roost]

anyway, the point I'm making is that while compensation is an important factor to consider, it's far from the only factor to consider, and considering only compensation while ignoring all other factors will lead to decisions that gain you only a small amount more freedom from the extra compensation, but lose you a lot of happiness from doing things you don't enjoy or don't ethically agree with or that leave you little time for your family.

[harsh river]

(sounds like you work in PR)

[spark cobalt]

[summer roost]

deciding where to work based only on compensation would be like deciding where to live based only on crime rates. Hope you like corn, you'll be seeing a lot of it.

[spark cobalt]

@vapid jay I think if you want to help people, you'd be able to help much more people with your abilities as an SWE, than you would as a doctor. You may not be directly saving their lives, but you could be part of the technology that helps get ambulances to places faster, or be part of the software that is used in hospitals, or be a part of the many startups that are working to detect cancer early with ML, etc.

[summer roost]

software does have a pretty impressive multiplier effect.

[dreamy shadow]

Rip the guy with cancer but the ML predicted wrong.

[spark cobalt]

[summer roost]

not really any different from doctors predicting wrong, honestly.

radiographs are hard to read, and ML models are already able to do better at that than the average radiologist, last I heard.

computers are better at spotting subtle anomalies than people are.

[spark cobalt]

There's a lot of potential even with your capabilities as a SWE right now that can be used to help save lives. In fact, the company you're working at right now is likely providing some sort of QOL or providing some sort of product to meet a demand. So many things you can do to help people with technology. @vapid jay

[smoky quest]

That escalated quickly.
But as SWE, we have the opportunity to work on the software used to power a lot of the latest and greatest improvements. For instance the whatsapp engineers were able to reach 1 billions people. That's huge!
Or on another subject, the folks behind scikit or hadoop or tensorflow/torch. Their software is used to save lives as well as to discover new planets

[dreamy shadow]

They might do better if they didn't need to do 12 hour shifts lol

[spark cobalt]

From intuition, seems like the major problem would be false positives, rather than false negatives. Which in itself is very impactful already.

[summer roost]

it's easy to understate incremental progress, too. Quality of life has been rising for decades in countries all over the world, in huge part due to technology. Logistics is boring but makes a huge difference to making life better for people.

[smoky quest]

it's also whether or not it's better than what was before. Does having it improves the odds comparing to not having it as well?

[spark cobalt]

Finding anomalies is easy, figuring if that anomaly is cancer is different.

[summer roost]

and it's not like computers are replacing humans at these jobs. We're using computers to augment the humans, instead.

[low ravine]

how regularly is cybersecurity using code?

[spark cobalt]

Yeah true. There is always the sense of it having to be economically viable.

[smoky quest]

it depends on which area of cybersecurity you work in

[spark cobalt]

Good point. But it can also definitely allow for more efficiency, and point to doctors at what to prioritize looking at and whatnot. Which would be better than without it presumably.

[smoky quest]

As mentioned by Godlygeek, if you can have an AI/ML taking care of 80% of the obvious and easy cases, that gives more time for the humans to focus on the hard and rewarding stuff

[dreamy shadow]

Rip cashiers at self checkout

[low ravine]

im looking to go back to school for cybersecurity and getting started on my career

[spark cobalt]

Amazon Go

[summer roost]

that's sort of off topic, but more on topic: professionals in the US have long been resistant to unions, but this is exactly the sort of problem that unionization could solve, over time. The ultimate problem here is that clinics don't have enough doctors on staff to cover all the shifts that need covering, but that's a decision, and that could be fixed (over time, with incremental improvements)

tired doctors do make mistakes and hurt people, and so doctors banding together to say "stop making us work tired" could make a huge difference to the industry over time.

[dreamy shadow]

Career wise, docs in the US are paid significantly more compared to their first world counterpart. There's a lot that goes into it like med school costs

[harsh river]

the problem is doctors have done so, but society often doesnt care about doctors until they need them

[harsh river]

but it's relative, COL is higher and in turn, so is pay

[dreamy shadow]

In what aspect?

[smoky quest]

It's like SWE. The gap in pay between EU and US is wider than the cost of living

[summer roost]

sure, but it doesn't matter much what society wants. This is solveable at the employer/employee level. Imagine if doctors got overtime pay for pulling their 16 hour shifts: clinics would immediately rather hire another doctor (or two!) than pay the extra wages for one. Supply of doctors would be a problem, but only until the education system is able to mint more doctors.

[harsh river]

it costs more to live in the us, so people need to get paid more

[harsh river]

have you looked into the traveling nurse situation?

[summer roost]

I'm vaguely aware of it

[harsh river]

what you're saying is similar to the nurse problem, the hospitals instead of paying them more and having better conditions at work, pay traveling nurses substantially more instead of... just improving conditions and hiring more people

[summer roost]

I bring this up mostly because unionization of programming jobs in the US is an interesting topic. And unions have been in the news here lately, between police unions and rail workers.

and there are entire industries that are known for having predatory practices (cough game dev cough)

[dreamy shadow]

Doctors in the US are paid high partly due to lack of doctors. There would be significantly more if it didn't put you quarter a mill in debt.

[smoky quest]

Interestingly enough, healthcare and doctors have also been a very hot topic in France and Germany recently

[dreamy shadow]

I think Germany's universities are free right?

[harsh river]

in a lot of places in europe public universities is free yes

[smoky quest]

So are they in France.
It hasn't stopped people from abusing them. And considering it takes ~10 years to educate one...

[summer roost]

https://educationdata.org/average-medical-school-debt says:

In Canada, the average medical school debt among graduates is US$19,250.

Given that Canada and the US are graduating doctors at similar rates and the ones in Canada have much less debt, there's probably a cultural or social issue at play, beyond just debt and risk.

[dreamy shadow]

Canada also has a fraction of US population, yet generates the same rate* of medical graduates.

[spark cobalt]

Same # or same rates That seems conflicting.

[summer roost]

the same number per capita

your link said 7.6 per 100,000 vs 7.7 per 100,000

that's already adjusted for population.

[spark cobalt]

The economy will adjust over time. Right now, the time investment and the returned wage of a doctor is, like NOIR was saying (and he's probably a perfect example for this), unjustifiable in comparison to a SWE.

[smoky quest]

From what I gather in my network, a mid level/senior swe can earn more

[summer roost]

collective bargaining is one way to push for those economic adjustments from the bottom up.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah I'm seeing this as well too

[harsh river]

even with collective bargaining there's so much they can do

[summer roost]

I'm not saying it'd be perfect, but it could only help.

[spark cobalt]

At least in Asian community, the hype of doctor/lawyer moved heavily to CS over the past few years. And Asians are very overrepresented in both CS and med. This cultural shift could also be why there is a decline in med school attendees. Granted this is mostly just causation, I don't know the exact correlation.

[dreamy shadow]

Also, 19k USD in Canada is pretty significant given that their uni average cost is just 6.6k https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/210908/dq210908a-eng.htm

[harsh river]

||(so r u)||

[summer roost]

it doesn't really make sense to look at debt in isolation without considering income. How long does it take a Canadian doctor to pay off their student loans, on average, vs a US doctor?

[dreamy shadow]

In the US, the primary factor for lack of doctors is definitely tuition cost and # of schools/acceptance rate/w/e you want to call it.

[summer roost]

I'm betting the Canadian doctor pays them off much faster.

[spark cobalt]

Tbh, I didn't wanna become a doctor cuz I didn't like the work. The mental health aspect is what scared me the most.

[harsh river]

im fine with acceptance rate, if they aren't apt to do the work they shouldnt be acceptable, you cant risk bringing even more incompetent doctors into the system

[spark cobalt]

A part can also be we set our bar way too high (The bar is high, idk if it's too high, but just saying). Once we are in serious shortage and we need more people staffed, that bar may lower.

[summer roost]

the students who are getting rejected for med school would be ones who have already passed their MCATs, right?

[dreamy shadow]

Acceptance rate here, I mean students that MEET the requirements but are not accepted.

[smoky quest]

Or why are people failing? Are they receiving an adequate education?
There are many options before looking at lowering the bar

[harsh river]

when it comes to medical care, would you rather the bar be low?

[spark cobalt]

Lowering the bar would be moreso a short term bandaid but yeah definitely.

[harsh river]

you need to have your MCAT done in order to apply to medical school yes

[summer roost]

so if you've passed your MCAT, you are competent, right?

[summer roost]

I suspect the problem is more likely lack of teaching staff than anything else. If a school could take on more students without its quality of education sliding, it probably would, to get a bigger chunk of those sweet sweet student loans.

[harsh river]

if you pass the ACT or SAT are you competent to go to college?

[smoky quest]

I would foresee quite a few problems with regards to how they would be looked at. People who graduated from that year would be looked down just because they were from an easier year.
Not much different than some of the affirmative actions. But different hot topic 😉

[summer roost]

that's not really analogous - the SAT isn't pass/fail, the MCAT is, right?

[harsh river]

actually, it isn't

[spark cobalt]

At least personally I wouldn't. But some people that do need immediate attention and cannot afford it might be more likely to sign up with a doctor with less education (and hence, be cheaper). It definitely has economic potential and can save more people. But dunno.

[summer roost]

huh, I thought it was. OK.

[dreamy shadow]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/why-does-the-us-make-it-so-hard-to-be-a-doctor/622065/ this talks more about the lack of doctors in the US. Essentially, debt, lack of training, and gov laws/policies.

[true harness]

they're entrance exams though, essentially. if you meet the standard a school sets, then you are probably competent enough

[spark cobalt]

Phew affirmative action's effect in work place doesn't get talked about enough. But yeah I definitely see that.

[summer roost]

we've wandered pretty far off topic, though. No one seemed to want to bite at my on-topic suggestion about software developer unions.

[dreamy shadow]

Gov laws here is basically, not allowing/restricting foreign doctors from practicing in the US.

[dreamy shadow]

Unions in the US are at a all time low.

[summer roost]

yep.

[fallow palm]

Hey, has anybody here ever participated in google summer of code?

[harsh river]

yes, but for some majors the bar is much higher, even in CS many introductory courses are designed to wash out the low hanging fruits, same thing happens in medical school

[smoky quest]

As someone managing people, I don't want unions :p

[dreamy shadow]

Yes, but the point is that there are plenty of students that DON"T go to medschool so they don't get in quarter million debt.

[harsh river]

the difference is that for medical school, the bar is much higher consistently across the board

[harsh river]

i would say the bar is more variably low for CS since some schools are more flexible than others

[spark cobalt]

Do you think being a part of a union would hurt a person's chance to be hired? Or are there some level of protections against that.

[dreamy shadow]

Total students interested in med -> Filter by students who don't want debt -> Filter by exams/ability to finish med school -> Not a lot of people left.

[spark cobalt]

Wait do you mean unionization within a company

[true harness]

what other unionization is there. other than of ions :p

[harsh river]

that's why i believe that medical school should be more subsidized by the govt n the later years of medical school or on completion of it

[spark cobalt]

Some European countries have unions that define the minimum wage for certain industry/roles. Which effect more than just one company. One of the Nordic countries do this, I forgot which one.

[dreamy shadow]

Welcome to the EU. Hence the dependency in # of med schools US churns out vs EU.

[smoky quest]

The main problem is I work with high performing teams, in companies giving an outsized return (ie. startups).
So everyone is in there for the potential.
Unions are great to ensure a minimum, but that also means it create a barrier to how high it can go.

In the kind of environment I work in, we don't want bullshit and we don't mind rewarding people with an outsized impact. So a union would just get in the way of both parties

[summer roost]

My salary is quite high, I'm sure that unionization would be bad for myself monetarily in the long term. But, I can be altruistic. I'm feeling pretty bad for those Twitter devs laid off with no warning after bad management decisions immediately before the holidays (and who are having trouble collecting their benefits and severance packages). It'd be worse for me, but I still want it because it would be better for the industry.

[dreamy shadow]

Nordic country is nice to point to, but honestly they have a lot less population and diversity which means some problems are simpler to solve.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah understandable.

[smoky quest]

yep. Totally agree!

[dreamy shadow]

Those twitter devs def had no problems finding another job. I sure don't feel bad for them. Also their severance package is pretty good considering.

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't, but I totally understand why someone would do these trade offs

[harsh river]

for the first part, how do you know?

[spark cobalt]

I mean if unionization causes inefficiency, I wouldn't really consider it being better for the industry as a whole if it causes issues in hiring the best people for a team, but it would definitely be better for some of the edge cases like the Twitter situation.

[smoky quest]

It's also a bit more nuanced than that.
I know some folks still there and that's mostly because they got some golden handcuffs

[dreamy shadow]

Because there are plenty of companies that would take them in? Along the FANG brand.

[summer roost]

their severance package would be good if it was getting paid. But there are reports that it isn't, and that Twitter is leveraging the arbitration requirements in its employment contracts to make it sufficiently inconvenient that people refuse to put up a fight to get what they were promised.

[dreamy shadow]

Class action lawsuit here we come

[spark cobalt]

Apple hiring like crazy

[harsh river]

just because there's plenty of companies that would take them in doesnt mean they do

[dreamy shadow]

I can assure you someone has a significant easier time finding a new job with twitter on their resume than without.

[summer roost]

you actually can't form a class, because you can't sue until arbitration falls through, so everyone would need to independently go through the arbitration process before they'd be eligible to become a member of the class. At least, as I understand.

[spark cobalt]

You also have to realize there's generally a huge bias towards more junior developers that were being laid off. Which, a lot of juniors are having difficulties now.

[dreamy shadow]

You can test this yourself by generating two resumes, one with one without and submitting applications. See which one you get calls from more.

[spark cobalt]

It definitely helps, but I don't think it necessarily guarantees their hiring.

[dreamy shadow]

I feel bad for the ones that are on H1B visas and can't leave twitter.

[summer roost]

yes, but someone also has a significantly easier time getting a job when a thousand other engineers with similar skill sets didn't just get dumped on the market in their metros.

[smoky quest]

H1B holders can change job any time

[spark cobalt]

Also a part of layoffs were rescinded job offers, people who probably aren't able to put things like this on their resume.

[dreamy shadow]

Don't they need something something?

For an H-1B job change, you’ll need to secure a new H-1B visa, following the same steps as you did with your initial application. This means that you cannot switch jobs on an H-1B visa and effectively need to restart the application process.

[harsh river]

it's much harder for them though

[smoky quest]

no. They just switch job

[harsh river]

their new company needs to be willing to sponsor them

[summer roost]

there were H1B's who were laid off in the initial round by Twitter. With no notice, they've got 60 days to find a job.

[smoky quest]

It's no more difficult than switching job.

The most difficult part is getting that first h1b. After that, switching is easy

[smoky quest]

These are shitty. The 60 days part is not even codified. It's more of the government being "nice". In theory you are supposed to leave the country on the spot

[dreamy shadow]

H-1B visas are issued to foreign workers, but the conditions of that visa tie the employee to a specific sponsoring employer. And, transferring H-1B visas to new employers isn’t permitted; you’ll need a whole new visa. https://prodigyfinance.com/resources/blog/job-change-h1b-visa/

[harsh river]

👀

[smoky quest]

that's bullshit. Transferring the h1b visa is just some paperwork to send

[summer roost]

I'd expect the H1B's who are still at Twitter are looking to get out ASAP though, since their job security at Twitter is looking lower by the day.

[summer roost]

This is my understanding as well. It's not hard to move to another company once you're in the country working legally with an H-1B.

[smoky quest]

I have been a h1b, I have friends under h1b, I have hired h1b, I have had conversions going on.
Not my first rodeo

[summer roost]

the interview and dealing with the hiring market is the stressful part, not dealing with the govt

[smoky quest]

As long as your current h1b is valid, you can transfer as many times as you want. It takes 3-4 weeks to take effect and thus you have to be a bit more careful about your two weeks notice. But beyond that, that's it.

[dreamy shadow]

Not getting auto filtered out when the application asks if you need sponsership.

[summer roost]

true, but that was already the case for every job they were applying for

I mean: yes, only employers willing to sponsor the visa are part of their potential employer pool, but that's unrelated to their job switch. It's the same pool of companies that were willing to interview them when they were first looking for jobs

[smoky quest]

that was especially a case during covid when the embassies were closed.

That said, employers are a lot more amenable to sponsor a transfer (~10k$ in lawyers) rather than sponsoring a h1b from scratch.

During covid, I had an employee stuck out of the country because they happened to be visiting some family. They had to work for more than a year from there until their situation got resolved

[summer roost]

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/62w-H1b-portability is the department of labor fact sheet about transfers, @dreamy shadow

I just looked it up since I'm relatively out of my depth talking too much about visas 🙂

[summer roost]

I heard stories about things like that happening in my circle, too. 😦

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, my original point is I feel bad for anyone that couldn't run from muskrat the instant they had the chance to.
Which often is due to Visa/H1B*

[smoky quest]

that was stressful for everyone involved

[harsh river]

i hadn't thought of that honestly, honestly i was lucky enough to not be on a visa

[summer roost]

I knew at least one person who left to visit a sick family member, with no idea if or when they'd be able to return to the country they'd been working in.

really tough choices to have to make.

[harsh river]

that's horrible

[smoky quest]

plus there are things kicking in if you are outside of the usa for more than a few months when on a visa

[dreamy shadow]

Having family outside the US is def tough. Friend of mine can't visit their parents in China because of the political issues there. Needing to use 14+ days PTO just for quarantine period isn't viable.

[smoky quest]

AND the flights were in the 5 digits

[dreamy shadow]

Yes, on top of the like 10 flights per month that fly there + cost lmao

[harsh river]

i had a friend fly out of the country to visit sick mother, then pay to be crossed back over the border

[summer roost]

for software jobs, you can often get around things like the 14+ PTO days just for quarantine by working some time from the country you're visiting - but I know some companies forbid transporting company equipment into China

not always, but if it's possible to do your job remotely, you might find out that your management chain is willing to let you do it from another country for a short period of time in order to see family you've been trapped away from for the entire pandemic.

No guarantees, but - you'd be surprised how reasonable people can be.

[dreamy shadow]

Probably more of a personal leave

[harsh river]

depends on the company and whos reviewing the request

[summer roost]

and whether it exposes the company to any tax or other legal risk. I'd ask the manager in person or video, not over email, just in case 🙂

[smoky quest]

as someone working in security, they are correct.
Companies would provide you with a loaner.

But as with visiting any country, there would also be some visa involved and the quarantine would in general be at your own cost and requires you to go to specific cities

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, sadly China is now level 3 on travel advisory. Doubt any company will really be willing to let you bring equipment there.

[summer roost]

for someone returning to China to visit family, I'm guessing they're a Chinese citizen, which probably means they could legally work from China. Whether they could legally work for a foreign company from China, that's a different issue... but it's probably not visa but something else at that point.

[smoky quest]

I have had that problem 😉
And also the opposite with some parents visiting an employee. Bringing also some problems with overstay due to not being able to fly back

[bold sage]

Hello

[dreamy shadow]

Anyways, I don't really want to go further into geopolitics

[summer roost]

good to know (and also good to know about the travel advisory front). I knew my company gives loaners for travel to China, and limits the types of business that we allow to be conducted there, but I wasn't sure how much of that is industry-standard, and how much of that is due to our particular line of business.

[bold sage]

I have a question

[smoky quest]

yeah, loaner and limited vpn access are standard

[bold sage]

how much time does it take to learn python? Just wondering

[smoky quest]

plus having to push back on idiots from exec and HR. But that's a whole different topic

[smoky quest]

It depends a lot on your situation and goal.
That is also a difficult question to answer.

Could you expand on your situation and goals? How would learning about python help you?

[spark cobalt]

To add onto that, do you have any prior knowledge on any other languages perhaps?

[summer roost]

if it's your first programming language, getting competent would likely take months, maybe years. If you already know an object oriented programming language, that might only be days or weeks.

it's also hard to answer anyway. It's like asking how long it would take to learn to play the piano, or to learn geometry

some will pick it up faster than others.

if you stick with it, you could probably get good enough to create simple games (hangman or tic tac toe or things like that) in just a few weeks.

[harsh river]

👀

[summer roost]

Disagree?

[harsh river]

i've been coding for a few years and i dont think i coud create them rn

not sure what that says about me though

[summer roost]

I'm just picturing print()/input() and a terminal.

[smoky quest]

Sounds like an opportunity to learn. These are fun games to implement too!

[harsh river]

im too lazy to

[summer roost]

The games I suggested are particularly easy ones to implement, I think. Blackjack with a computer dealer would be one tier up, I'd say.

[spark cobalt]

You definitely can. Probably just didn't put enough thought into how to would do it yet.

[smoky quest]

I would recommend to at least look at tic tac toe. It's a prime example to learn about minmax

[arctic plover]

which is the path in programming which is related to physics and maths? basically since i am preparing for one of the world's toughest exam based on physics and maths (jee adv.) i wanted to know a course which required some good amount of physics or math

so that preparing for that exam will be a little fun for me aswell since i will know that it will help me in programming aswell.. it doesnt make that much sense ik

[buoyant seal]

Python 😆 Data science / Numpy/Panda/Matplotlib

[buoyant seal]

https://towardsdatascience.com/data-science-learning-roadmap-for-2021-84f2ba09a44f

[merry peak]

@arctic plover so you refer physics and maths book y programming

[arctic plover]

in free time bro

trying to replace my valo addiction with something good

[arctic plover]

ok

which is the most fun path of programming?

i presume game dev?

[buoyant seal]

For personal projects, sure.
For commercial programming, rumors say it is pretty much opposite

[worldly ridge]

What projects did your first portfolio include guys

[near remnant]

How common is that devs don't write tests for example unittests at their jobs?

[arctic plover]

ye personal ofc

tho i need friends to play those games with 💀

[spark cobalt]

Typically every project will have some sort of tests in their CICD pipeline and follow TDD. Most medium/large sized companies generally have developers that do only tests, and developers that do only development. Smaller companies like the one I work at sometimes have developers do both.

[near remnant]

Ah okay. Im at a company, im a junior. Doing python backend job, implementing new features, fixing bugs, etc. We have QA testers, manual testers, etc. We/I don't write tests and I find it weird. Its legacy code tho. What do you recommend? Should I create hobby projects and practice unittesting on the side?

[spark cobalt]

Maybe recommend that they start automating the testing? Manual test (at least depending on the scale they're doing it at) is pretty old fashion and kind of an unnessecary money dump.

[buoyant seal]

Is it even ever allowed to exist? 😛
Unit test are minimal quality of programming. If they arent added, then code is below Junior grade in quality and should not be allowed to prod

[buoyant seal]

😱

[buoyant seal]

Definitely practice on side

[spark cobalt]

Would be a lot easier for you if you wrote tests on a codebase you understood and work with daily. But yeah if that's not possible definitely on the side.

[near remnant]

Ok, then there are a lot of below junior grade devs

[spark cobalt]

Sounds like you probably work at a non-tech company?

[near remnant]

Its a pure tech company

[spark cobalt]

Then they should consider automated testing (beyond just unit tests.) Should definitely bring it up to your seniors/lead.

[buoyant seal]

Well, real developers cover their code tested even in pet projects.
Code begins tested if it is application having more than dozens of code lines and stops being simple script

Difference in production testing and pet project testing only usually

In production is can be enforced coverage metrics and different testing strategies.
In pet projects u can cover at a more relax temp depending on your needs / just whatever amount is necessary to keep up with Refactoring speed and less often manual checks

[near remnant]

By manual testing I meant testing the functions and stuff on testing local env

[near remnant]

Ok then what can I say

[spark cobalt]

Well don't walk in the company and say you guys aren't real developers and making lower than junior dev code. I'd study a little into TDD and try to bring it up to your seniors or project lead.

Lots of good reasons to have unit tests for your projects.

[buoyant seal]

Oh, so u have auto tests, u just don't have CI pipeline to run them automatically?

[spark cobalt]

Doesn't sound like it.

[near remnant]

Idk, im quite confused, I will ask about it

[white relic]

there are different kinds of software projects. Not everything has a "prod". Which isn't to say every software project shouldn't have tests, but there are other factors to consider.

if you're a junior you should operate under the assumption that the people who have been there longer than you and know the projects better than you have some idea what they're doing

[near remnant]

Honestly, everything else is really fine, Im doing technology migration from python 2 to 3 and also from an old framework to Django. Im gaining good experience for a first python job its just the testing thats weird.

[buoyant seal]

Not auto tested is not allowed in any commercial situation. Difference allowed only in having different high amount of testing coverage percent and used strategies

[near remnant]

But im trying to read books and study on the side as much as I can.

[spark cobalt]

Probably want to look into pytest then. Though unsure if it works cohesively with Django's already included test thing.

[buoyant seal]

Some code is regretfully more difficult to test though. Like infra lambda code.
Or writing e2e tests to front is not fun.

But regular unit tests are simple and should be always

[buoyant seal]

Works perfect. Just add pytest-django lib

[spark cobalt]

[white relic]

not all professional programming is commercial in nature either

[spark cobalt]

If they have QA and manual testers, it's likely commercial.

At least in this person's case, should absolutely include testing.

[near remnant]

Anyways. I should not complain since they hired me as a self taught guy, lmao. Guess my second job will be better.

[buoyant seal]

All right. Any professional programming should be always autotested too.

Only non professional and non commercial at the same time, made by non tech people code is allowed to be not tested xD

[spark cobalt]

They still hired you anyways. Don't discount yourself when no one else discounted you.

Try see if you can make the initiative to add testing.

[near remnant]

What the fuck is "non tech people code"

[white relic]

"allowed"
you have such a strange idea of what programming is allowed to be

[buoyant seal]

Data scientists code 😉

[spark cobalt]

DW you work as DevOps right?

[near remnant]

You are weird bro

[buoyant seal]

Something on cross between backend and DevOps.

[spark cobalt]

Gotcha.

[buoyant seal]

There are always hobby enthusiasts though, just doing stuff for fun, without really learning programming professionally. That is non tech code too

[near remnant]

I get it but its a tech company with big money involved in. Not hobby enthusiasist.

[spark cobalt]

Bunch of semantics. Either way, when done right, testing can only enhance your production quality and speed.

[near remnant]

Anyways, thanks for help. I think Im overthinking it. Will think about it tho.

[spark cobalt]

Research into TDD (test driven development), as the name implies, there's still an inherent priority it has for your team.

[near remnant]

Anyways, any advice? Will I be in disadvantage in the future if I only test on the side on a side project? Other than testing the job is perfect.

[spark cobalt]

If you're just trying to learn how to test on the side, I'd research into various testing strategies and then move onto how to actually apply it in Python or whatever language you're comfortable with.

Not all tests are created equal. I think DW suggested me a really great book on testing uhh lemme see if I can find it

[near ocean]

This real devs always have tests thing is 100% elitist and BS and should stop

[spark cobalt]

I went through the first book. Really solid. ^

[buoyant seal]

Great 🙂

This real devs always have tests thing is 100% elitist and BS and should stop

Then u should already understand than more untruthful than this saying cant possible exist xD definitely not something sane Dev would say

[near ocean]

You sound like those annoying "python and other scripting langs arent real dev" people
Please stop it, youre wrong

[buoyant seal]

Python programs are especially depended on testing, and it is its only means to survive, considering that Python can catch errors only during runtime. Read the books above, and try telling me your phrases again after that

[spark cobalt]

That wasn't really their point.

[near ocean]

My guy it doesnt matter how truthful it is
Arent you a junior ops guy? How do you even know whats universal truth or not

Anyway its the phrasing and the gatekeeping with "real devs" and "non tech code"

[buoyant seal]

Yeah. The point is having ability to refactor code quickly and having clean code. Without testing it is nearly impossible

Or adding new features without breaking the rest of code

[visual gyro]

Guys, what are some good books on data science that really explain the math behind the models ? I'm reading a book on ml with python, it is good but I feel that it lacks more deep explanations sometimes.

[vapid jay]

I have a career based question: what would you say is the best and worst part of your job?

[spark cobalt]

It is possible depending on the scale of the project. Nonetheless, no one's saying testing is bad, it's moreso just how you say testing is the divider of a "real dev" and not irks the wrong way.

Sometimes a company needs to push out a project in a timeframe that doesn't allow them to comfortably set up a CI pipeline and whatnot. It doesn't make them like fake devs all of a sudden.

We're all on the same boat on testing I think. Just the other semantic stuff is kinda jank.

[near ocean]

Or "non tech code" like, what the fuck does that even mean

[spark cobalt]

Collaborating with others and solving problems everyday is my highlight. The culture at my company is great, also good food too. Not so many cons, if there are any it's typically just like bad culture fit individuals, and company bureaucracy. (Granted, I am pretty early on my career so I haven't seen much)

@visual gyro Some recommended here. I personally recommend Probablistic Machine Learning by Kevin Murphy (able to find it online with a Google search), also your name is cancer. Discord just doesn't support combination of right aligned languages and left aligned languages.

[buoyant seal]

Well. Hopefully I will never ever see place like this as employee

[near ocean]

Its not that hard to express an opinion without being elitist, gatekeeping and obnoxious
Pretty sure its in the code of conduct here

[spark cobalt]

Ah I'm in a startup so it's pretty common that some projects go headfirst without testing, then add it later when it's more smooth sailing.

Yeah I think you made your point clear in terms of how testing is crucial. Just the whole real dev stuff is kinda silly.

[near ocean]

"real devs" arent absolutists and see the practical aspects of proceeding with a functional product before extensive testing
You must not be a "real dev" i guess

[spark cobalt]

This is all so silly.

[near ocean]

Yep

[buoyant seal]

I am pretty much sharing always stuff to encourage people learning it 🙂

There are some minimal thresholds to quality. If u don't go for testing/CI, then u a just below those standards. Surely u can develop without it... But that would be already software not meeting requirements to move forward. That will be Software inevitably too much rapidly moving to become garbage. Increasing cost of development unproportional to the value of delivered features. That is not acceptable code of conduct. Developers should be efficiently using time to deliver quality. That is what testing brings. Faster and more quality results at the same time.
Without testing in commercial is sad

[spark cobalt]

Tests don't measure code quality. It just measures that the code works. A monkey code writer can pass all the tests and the code still be shit.

[near ocean]

Not worth the trouble imho, lets move along

[spark cobalt]

Off topic for this channel anyways. OP is long gone.

[near remnant]

Im here, just watching

But anyways. I will just stop caring and try to learn as much as possible. Maybe I will start applying for jobs in 6-8-10 months. So grind LC.

[near ocean]

If you can push for automated testing that'd be great
The more stuff you can work on the better

[spark cobalt]

Very good learning opportunity absolutely.

[near ocean]

If you can get them to let you setup CI and coverage tools and whatnot, even better

[near remnant]

Aight. Thanks guys. Do you think Im doomed because my first python backend job is legacy code?

[spark cobalt]

Nope.

[blazing ivy]

Hey guys do you think it’s wise to begin learning to code now? Because i just found OpenAi which is Ai which nonprogrammers can use to code effortlessly, and i think it will improve over the years

[near ocean]

Bots writing your code is not a thing currently or for the next 5+ years
Not in a professional setting

[buoyant seal]

At some point all code is always legacy. Programming is an art of collaborating with others.
What matters only having it preferably updated to more recent versions of libraries and relatively newer python (3.8+)

[spark cobalt]

Ultimately experience is experience. As long as you're learning and growing as a developer, then you're fine.

[visual gyro]

I'll take a look! Thanks for the suggestion

[gritty rivet]

The growing power of AI is a good reason to learn how to code. AI doesn't build itself, at least not yet

It's also a question of opportunity cost. Learning to code vs learning what? There isn't any specific practical skill that is future proof.

[primal crescent]

Hi guys

[hearty island]

damnit, it seems like i’m gonna be rejected from oracle

[primal crescent]

I am first year collage student, I am currently learning python and data structures and algorithms in C, I have a little experience with problem solving, I does that on hackerrank, Can anyone please tell me a road-map so that I can at-least get started to earn my pocket money? please specify how many(approx) and which kind of projects do I need to do, if you are answering my question then thank you so much ❤️ , but please give clear answer with a proper guide of roadmap.

[spark cobalt]

CS industry is way too broad to give you any meaningful information from what you've given. What specific field are you interested in? What type of classes are you planning to take?

[primal crescent]

Well, since I've took admition in university, its really hard to convince my parents to take other paid online classes, I can work anywhere, app, web or even helping in homework, also I have a little skill in teaching stuff, although not fully experienced, I will do anything in programming for now because I din't discover my field in forest of CS, for now I can learn any classes that can help me to earn a little money in 3-4 months.

[spark cobalt]

Having a CS degree will allow you to have much more options than just app or web. If you're looking for "quick cash," I suppose the best thing you want to gun for are internships. Which, if you're in the US, I believe they're generally paid for this industry. Then again, this all goes back to what your focus is.

[primal crescent]

I am Indian, and my university is tire-3, so tech-compnies here knows that degrees are not pointing quality in student, I have to be on my own, I have no options to trust on my degree, and also that will come after more 3.5 years, I don't have that much time and motivation to wait without earning a single bit of money, talking about internships, which skills will they expect from me? just tell me specifically.

[spark cobalt]

Well for a web dev role, they expect web development related skills.
For a mobile dev role, they expect mobile development related skills.
For a data science role, they expect data science related skills.
And the list goes on infinitely.

What do you want to do?

[primal crescent]

What can be learnt as quickly as possible?

[near ocean]

Web dev is the easiest and quickest path into a job
Especially if you have a touch for artsy design

[spark cobalt]

Probably front end web development. But generally things that can be learned quickly and pay well, are roles that are easily saturated. You'll have a lot of competition and quite frankly, you could use your degree to get better roles.

[primal crescent]

Thanks for giving answer, can you please list all stuff that I need to learn more specifically, and also some list of example projects, and very important at which point I should apply?

[spark cobalt]

Tbh, I don't necessarily agree with you making career decisions that can last 30 years just for a little bit of a short term benefit.

But here's a resource that can get you started. https://roadmap.sh/frontend

[near ocean]

Learn python or another lang for the backend stuff, learn JS
Theres no point having a complete roadmap right now because the more you learn about JS the more you'll figure out which way you want to go

[spark cobalt]

https://roadmap.sh/backend Backend roadmap.

[primal crescent]

well, I don't think there is any relationship between degree and better job in tire-3 indian collages, also I just need enough money to stay on CS, because currently anything that I learns in CS is intresting for me, but only some earnings can stabilize my motivation.

[arctic plover]

i am on a udemy js course and i am at 60 percent done but im finding it way too boring

so i left it and switched to a python course... is there even any use of js

[near ocean]

Yes? The entire web is built on JS

[spark cobalt]

^

[arctic plover]

non web related*

[spark cobalt]

Then not so much.

[primal crescent]

I know, but currently money is important for my mindset, so that I can study thing with stable mind.

[arctic plover]

dont want to work on web dev since i wanna utilize my math skills

[spark cobalt]

Well just saying, this mindset could hurt future earnings down the road. But if it makes you feel better, then sure go for it I guess.

[near ocean]

Why'd you start a js course then

[arctic plover]

i was 14 at that time... now im 16 lmao

basically procrastinated for 2 years that's how boring i found it.. but kept on going just for the sake of completion (not a regular coder since im preparing for jee)

now im trying to learn coding just for fun in my free time after studying so deciding to switch to something like game dev

[spark cobalt]

That's a long JS course

In all seriousness, you still have time before you go to college. Just make sure you focus on your grades so you can get into a good CS program. Atm though, I would just explore technology instead of try to stick on one specific thing. Try starting by exploring the technology around you. Figure out how networks work, the frontend, backend, maybe pick up a little data science and ML, etc.

Yeah sure! Build some games. You have time.

[arctic plover]

314 lectures around 20m each

but i havent coded in 5-6 months

[spark cobalt]

(Though, I will say, game development has a pretty bad reputation in terms of pay and WLB, comparatively to other software roles.)

[primal crescent]

think it like, one you are in big dark cave with only few resources, you have 2 ways, 1 way will led you to out of cave and other with led you to more deep in cave, sure If you are curious, in deep cave, you will come again after having more tools, but right now if you can't get out, you will die by shortage of resource(in my case motivation) .

[vapid jay]

Question:

Did you ever fear that you wouldn't be good at your job? If so, how did you move past it? If not, why not?

[arctic plover]

Is A.I fun?

[spark cobalt]

It's awfully fascinating, which in turn makes it fun. Though I don't do AI for work, so I can't attest to what they do day by day.

[arctic plover]

aight

[true harness]

no, i'm just that good /s

realistically, yeah. there's a common phenomenon called imposter syndrome

[spark cobalt]

To me it's just like, if I wasn't good I wouldn't be here in the first place.

[near ocean]

Yes, the trick is to notice that no one actually knows what theyre doing and everyone is just faking it and it somehow works /s

But really, its all in your head

[gritty rivet]

I assume that a) I'm a terrible judge of my own skill and that b) negative emotions from setbacks are inevitable and not that important.

Focus on objective measures of success, goals and timelines. If I fail, it's a technical problem to be solved moving forward.

I try not to care that I'm not as smart or effective as a lot of other people, I just want to maximize effectiveness. I don't know what my natural limits are, but I know I can always get better with effort

[spark cobalt]

Everyone is fucking around and finding out

[near ocean]

I think im having a bit of an imposter moment atm and the way i'm dealing with it is subconsciously volunteering for more and more tickets (ie not saying i have enough of a workload)
Its stressful and i cant seem to stop myself from doing it

This sprint i took on more new tickets than other members have total and only realised it when i went for a bathroom break

[vapid jay]

Yea those are good points and they definitely helped thanks everyone 🙂

[grave ridge]

Sorry for bothering again. Precisely, apart from Linear Algebra what other concepts should I have an idea on? (for ML)

[spark cobalt]

The books and other various resources sent runs down everything you need to know.

[delicate bane]

i feel that. i think my default is to take on more work bc im just worried about becoming "complacent"

[vapid jay]

python developer roadmap that may give you a slight idea. check out the odin project and freecodecamp for web development

[nocturne perch]

heyy,
how can clean RAM with python?

[lapis wind]

What?

[gritty rivet]

no idea what that means but this is the career channel, maybe try #python-discussion

[nocturne perch]

oh ok ty

[mortal wedge]

The reason you have a job is because you’re fully qualified for it 🙂

[hearty drum]

Has anyone here used construct 3?

[graceful mason]

Does this have anything to do with #career-advice ?

[vapid jay]

For careers in comp sci, which coding program is used the most?

[smoky quest]

CS degrees are the most popular.
If you are referring to IDEs and tools, then #tools-and-devops or #editors-ides would be more appropriate

[dreamy shadow]

When do you say: "This existing code from someone else* is not going to work and it's better to just restart". Feels like where I"m at with this project.

[smoky quest]

It's very situation specific.
I would note that developers would typically have a bias for rewriting from scratch and I would account for that

[delicate bane]

thats what the dev who was the SME said for one of our key products

the amount of technical debt is unreal

but now hes left so im left holding the bag on this particular project

[dreamy shadow]

I'm taking over a NN code base that's originally designed for something else and trying to make it work for predicting severity. But the model itself is predicting too high, while it is using gamma. (e.g. range is 0-1 as a percentile, model predicts max of 4)

At this point, I feel like it would be better off just to use a different simpler default* package and generating something that works.

I've been sitting on this project for a while now, and def can feel like I'm at the verge of giving up making this work.

[delicate bane]

do it. i would go for the easiest to maintain solution that still meets your use case needs

[smoky quest]

One way to go about it is to box it behind an interface/facade so that you can swap it out whenever you feel like or experiment with other implementations without impacting the rest of your project

[dreamy shadow]

This code base isn't deployed yet lmao. Like my manager and I literally deployed a somewhat simple model few months ago because of how long it was taking to deploy this project from the official DS side of things.

[delicate bane]

i feel that. once a model is created, its always weeks-months for deployment. sometimes never

[dreamy shadow]

The copium is that this Deep NN code base can be "configured" for any type of problem. Except that hasn't occurred from what I understand, and the original author had left the company.

Idk, I feel like I've been handed the bag in this project.

[delicate bane]

you too? its one of the least fun parts of a job

at least for me.

@dreamy shadow btw i saw this and wanted to get your opinion on this if youre free

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, my problem is idk what to do. I've been stuck on this project for a while, it was in the back burner so it wasn't a problem. But now it's in the front.

[delicate bane]

mine is still on the backburner for now but im sure it will come up in Q1 of next year

[dreamy shadow]

This is fair, but he doesn't indicate what job titles he moved to. A lot of company do the same thing, calling everything data scientist instead of data engineering, analyst, etc.

[delicate bane]

what he personally moved to? looks like he is a CTO at a startup. but i think his argument of changing titles to indicate specialization has some weight. maybe.

[hearty island]

i'm upset about my oracle internship 😦 they can't seem to find a match for me on the team even though they initially contacted me for the position. hopefully i land something else

[smoky quest]

I have seen more of the kind like:

• data scientist -> make the model
• mle -> deploy the model and make sure it works and pipe the data from the various DBs

[dreamy shadow]

After looking at some job descriptions, MLE sounds like SWE with a bit heavier understanding of ML.

[true harness]

it's more about using existing algorithms, cleaning data, using them along with software

[dreamy shadow]

Yes, original titles that existed had weight. "X analyst" told you exactly their skill sets.

Cleaning data is more of data engineering, which I would argue is different from ML Engineering.

If I transition into a Engineering role, I would need to strengthen my coding by a lot more.

[delicate bane]

right. the issue is sometimes data analyst work falls under the general umbrella term data scientist now too. which isnt good if you dont like that type of work.

[dreamy shadow]

Anyways, in my current problem. I'm going to start from scratch. Running into too many issues here for no reason trying to make this existing code work.

[delicate bane]

data roles are too new. hopefully things change in the future.

[dreamy shadow]

Also, I definitely do not like analyst work. It's too much of "here's a task for today, here's a different task for tomorrow"

[delicate bane]

"why dont these numbers look right? can you double check this? can you 'quickly' pull a report for this? do you think i could get this by tomorrow? why doesnt this dashboard match with this one? etc."

[dreamy shadow]

What I was told: "You'll be building models"

I'm reading this salary progression thread, but no one is putting years. 70k in 1990s is like 160k now. This is also me avoiding my work problem lmao

[delicate bane]

same here. the nature of that work is extremely reactionary rather than being proactive which i hate tbh

[vapid jay]

What type of career is the most similar to coding bots on discord? Like a similar type of work...if that makes sense

[smoky quest]

your experience should reflect the box in which you fall in though.

[torn escarp]

[sonic spade]

Guys I'm not user if I should study computer science bc of gptchat

[mortal wedge]

I think machine learning engineer creates the models and analysts use them. Data engineer worries about deployment

[delicate bane]

ah yes but this is more for considering future roles

like maybe i dont want to go for a data scientist position in my next job due to the ambiguity of job responsibilities. maybe i want to go for more of an MLE role.

[delicate bane]

ehhh i dont necessarily agree but of course in some places some engineers do both. however, according to joe reis and matt housley in fundamentals of data engineering, data engineering is more pre-model work while ML engineering is more post-model work (deployment, MLOps, etc.). DE involves the data lifecycle (ingestion, storage, transformation, serving for different use cases including ML, etc.) for downstream consumers including DA/DS/MLE/SWE creating analytics applications/etc.

[dreamy shadow]

Or you can mix it in the same pot and call it all Data Scientist.

[mortal wedge]

It's a very mushy job title, for sure

[vapid jay]

how bad is it to have my first programming job be in a very old and unpopular language?

is it hindrance career wise, i wouldnt want to stick with it or is it just a great opportunity to get into that role and learn the ropes

[digital fjord]

From what I see, it doesn't really matter, you can switch stacks, especially early on in your career. It does also depend if we are talking sth like Smalltalk or sth like Java

[true harness]

it's not that bad, as long as you go out and learn more employable languages later. iirc, laki learned pascal, right?

[vapid jay]

sth like smalltalk not java lol

[digital fjord]

Yeah, but I didn't work a pascal job. I understand their concern that with 3 years of e.g. Smalltalk experience, they would get passed over in favour of candidates with 3 years exp. In JS/Python/C#. I do think it's fine, switching languages is fairly simple for junior programmers.

[spark cobalt]

Is there a reason you're doing this btw? Oh wait I misread.

[true harness]

yeah, i was just pointing out that it's not really a big deal

[vapid jay]

Is html popular?

[spark cobalt]

Experience is experience. If it aligns with the specific field of the industry that you're interested in, then I don't think the specific language used will matter too much. If you're unable to get other offers, then I'd just ride with this one if the other factors of this role are suitable for your case.

[digital fjord]

Yes, though not as a way to get employed.

[vapid jay]

Ah ok

[spark cobalt]

Core to front-end web development.

[vapid jay]

my point of view until recently when i realized how unused the language is was "ill learn how being a developer works, ill learn how to work on big projects, how are things connected to databses, all really good skill to have so win win"

[spark cobalt]

If you do get into front-end, HTML alone won't be enough (as lakmatiol mentioned). Typically JavaScript/TypeScript and CSS as well. In combination with a web framework like React.

[digital fjord]

With these old/esoteric technologies, a common career path is also just working the same job until retirement and being able to set terms since replacing your expertise is practically impossible

[vapid jay]

but yeah im being increasingly more worried that working on some old unused language could actually hinder my progress

[spark cobalt]

You likely won't use only that language.

[digital fjord]

I think those worries are unfounded. I would try to change jobs ASAP if you don't actually want to work in that field, but experience is experience.

[vapid jay]

Is python a good choice then? Or is python a different thing? I only have experience with html and I'm not to sure what python is good for except for making discord bots

[vapid jay]

do i have better chance of getting hired after hafl a year of coding in le foreign language in some other programming language?

[true harness]

did you say that the language you're learning is smalltalk? you said "sth like smalltalk", just confirming

[digital fjord]

Nope, that was my example

[vapid jay]

why?

[true harness]

i'm just wondering. you say it might not be relevant for a career, but we don't know what might not be relevant

[spark cobalt]

Python is a general purpose language. It's good at being able to do literally anything (though in a professional context, Python isn't typically used in everything as other languages fit the performance needs, etc. better than Python can.)

If you're just trying to learn to program, Python is a very good language to start with, simply because you're able to focus on general programming concepts (that are extendable to many, many other languages) without the frustrations of syntax that other languages may have for a beginner.

[vapid jay]

what if it was smalltalk

[true harness]

what's wrong with just saying what it is...

[spark cobalt]

They're trying to help you, not try to belittle you 🙂

[digital fjord]

It may be so obscure it would just straight up doxx them. Not impossible, there are languages like mercury.

[spark cobalt]

[true harness]

ig...but that would only be to a university, right?

[vapid jay]

Right, so I think I'll stick with python for now to understand how to program in a more indepth level. At a professional level what would you say is the most used/important program?

[spark cobalt]

That is completely dependent on the role.

For example, languages used for front-end web development aren't languages used for game development. (Okay technically there can be a mix, but it's very uncommon afaik)

[buoyant seal]

Java is such awesome language.
Super popular backend
Probably main mobile Android
And even works as reasonably acceptable desktop language 🤣
(Game Dev included, hello Minecraft)
(Jet brain IDEs are also made in it, including Pycharm)

[vapid jay]

Ah I see. So like for example, I like coding the discord bots...what role would that fall under? I don't have the best understanding of programming yet unfortunately so I'm just trying to see what correlates with my interests so I can focus on better understanding that.

[true harness]

whatever it is, you will probably learn skills that will transfer to a different language. it's not really a big deal

[vapid jay]

thats what i am hoping for

but i dnt want to get groomed into gettings jobs only in language that one or two company uses on the market

[true harness]

then don't? learn a different language then

[vapid jay]

its a job

[true harness]

that doesn't mean you have to only use that language forever

[dreamy shadow]

You can always learn another language on your own time.

[spark cobalt]

If you're working in some field that's extendable to other languages, like working in the backend with databases as you hinted at earlier, then language shouldn't be the main dealbreaker as you have the relevant experience that's more important than just the language used.

[true harness]

knowing smalltalk, for example, means you can easily pick up other more modern OOP languages

[vapid jay]

i know basics of a lot of languages, want to work on a my own project in my free time for something like c# probably, back end stuff

[spark cobalt]

Probably more backend related roles. At least the packages you're using for a Discord bot are all API wrappers, which APIs are pretty essential to many backends.

[buoyant seal]

Essentially 99% backend. Same architecture principles.
JSON or discord API output, is not significant difference to backend.

[spark cobalt]

But it sounds more like you haven't discovered what's out there to do yet, you should try researching the technologies around you, see what interests you the most.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah Discord API is JSON I think.

Can take a look around you and figure out how networks work (network engineer), web development, mobile app development, game development, databases, and can go into more mathematically involved stuff like data science, ML, computer vision, etc.

I don't think it's wise to commit to something, when you are aware of so few options of hundreds.

[vapid jay]

Yea your right, ill look into all the options and see if there is one that I am interested in that i was not aware of prior to. Thank you for the advice I immensely appreciate it

[delicate bane]

[vapid jay]

Has anyone done WGU CS

What was your experience with them

[blazing ivy]

Is machine learning/AI coding that much different to normal coding for front end/software development? Is it harder or easier to learn?

[delicate bane]

it requires knowledge of a different set of topics. many would say frontend web development is easier to break into

[mortal wedge]

Requires a lot of math. If you went to school for that and have the math then go for it. Most find learning front end to be easier than advanced math

[white relic]

But math is more fun 🙂

[hearty island]

this is all i have from oracle 😦

[dreamy shadow]

Keep applying. Nothing is guaranteed until you get a offer letter in hand.

[hearty island]

yep

[hasty isle]

What does this all mean?
These are the CS requirements for uni of waterloot
Advanced Functions 4U
Calculus and Vectors 4U
Any Grade 12 U English
One other Grade 12 U course
4U?

[keen void]

hello every one

how may i start my python journey??

i have zero knowledge of coding and willing to start

[spark cobalt]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[quartz sage]

Data analysts, is python basics enough to get a entry level job? Basically knowing w3 school stuff and basic loops, functions?

[peak halo]

It is not. Not even nearly.

[autumn socket]

Yeah i have a similar question as @quartz sage . I started learning Python recently and I'm just wondering when does one become employable

[spark cobalt]

You will also need to show an employer your aptitude in the math behind being a data analyst, which typically comes with having a college degree. You can be an expert in Python, and still fail to be a performant data analyst.

[autumn socket]

What level of skill i should recognise i have for entry level?

[summer roost]

what prior work experience do you have? What level of education?

[autumn socket]

I started learning cause for my master's i want to end up in computational chemistry and some programming language between Python, C and Fortran is used so i went with Python. Now halfway through some udemy course (just finished part I of functions in that course) I'm liking this very much and can see it as alternative career path (altho I don't know what is the full scope of career paths and possibilities of python yet). I do have math / statistics experience from my bachelor's too

Prior work experience is not relevant to coding as it's internships in chem labs, education is hopefully chem eng bachelor in June. So not quite relevant but i had and still have fair share of contact with math

[mortal wedge]

I agree, but not everyone else does 🙂

[summer roost]

so you've got a master's? Or you've got a bachelors (in chemistry?) and are studying for a master's?

oh, you answered that in the next message

[mortal wedge]

Python is a generalist language with a vast ecosystem. What this means is that in most tech roles Python has a place. Some use python to do rocket science, others neuroscience, etc.

[autumn socket]

I should start masters the next academic year and as it is somewhat a shift from my undergrad studies (from engineering to pure chem) i started preparing slowly for it, that included python as well

[mortal wedge]

I encourage people to think of Python as a tool to accomplish other tasks and not a means unto its own end.

[autumn socket]

Does that mean i should invest my time into additional tools besides python?

[summer roost]

a STEM BS degree plus a working knowledge of Python would probably be enough to get a lot of companies to consider interviewing you.

[autumn socket]

I should obtain not working as in paid work but working with it heavily experience during my master's i think

[summer roost]

It's hard to give much of an answer to what level of skills you need to get an entry level job - the short answer is "more than all the other applicants", but that doesn't quite apply when someone is switching fields, and companies will hire programmers out of other STEM programs rather than just CS degree programs, in order to get increased diversity of thought and diversity of background.

[autumn socket]

In a niche way tho, i think

[summer roost]

If you're planning on sticking with the masters, a computational chemistry MS would be enough to land you programming jobs for sure - either inside or outside of the chemistry world.

I mean, assuming you learn how to code well enough from that MS, but it's hard to imagine how you could not and still graduate 😄

[autumn socket]

What other computer (or math) skills would you advise a pythoneer should possess in general besides python? Should i learn a little bit of C or some other language? Should I take a course in statistics or advanced linear algebra or something else?

[mortal wedge]

That's a difficult question to answer. There are so many different python jobs out there all of which require different skillsets.

[spark cobalt]

You should look into exactly what in tech you want to work in and then work backwards in terms of what technologies and skills you should have and learn.

[autumn socket]

Hmm, good idea

[summer roost]

one thing that you'd be lacking is experience reading code written by people outside of academia, and writing code designed to be iterated on by other people. Scientists often write code that is hot trash and would never pass a code review in industry. so in addition to libraries (pandas, numpy, and matplotlib in the Python space for instance), I'd suggest possibly getting involved in some open source projects to get some experience collaborating on a team with code that's meant to be maintained long term.

[autumn socket]

Hot trash xD

[summer roost]

no lie. I've seen absolute garbage fire code bases for research papers 🙂

[autumn socket]

As im learning i try to abide by the general styling rules i find people advise on internet tha regard to the readability of the code

[still scarab]

....

[autumn socket]

If that's what you meant

[summer roost]

that's part of it, but it's not just style but also design. Tactics vs strategy, so to speak.

but yes, that's a very good practice. It's worth just bearing in mind that you'd be better served mimicking the style and design of code outside academia than inside.

[autumn socket]

One would think a stem people would like to keep with standardized ways (if there are such) rather than inventing their own way

A chem eng wants his plant design to be readable by any chem eng in the world, why not so with the code xd

[summer roost]

statistics is helpful for data science and possibly for things like SRE. Linear algebra is essentially required if you wind up wanting to pursue machine learning. Both of those could be useful math classes, depending on what field you want to get into. C could be useful as well - it's a great introduction to how things work under the hood, and gives you some of the theoretical grounding that you need for working on all sorts of systems programming roles (even if you're not writing C, you often need to know what a syscall is, what virtual memory is, how the interface between the kernel and userland programs works, etc)

[summer roost]

academics seem to think of the code as a necessary evil rather than as the thing they're trying to produce. They don't tend to think much more of bad code than they think of bad handwriting, for a loose analogy. As long as the code gets their intent across, they often say "good enough"

whether that extends to the industry, I have no idea. I've known lots of academics who write terrible code, but I've never seen the code of any ChemE or biochem people, so I don't know if that tendency follows into industry jobs or not.

I wouldn't be terribly shocked if it does, though. Code quality is vastly different at companies where the code is treated as a profit center vs places where it's treated as a cost center.

[autumn socket]

Lastly, are paid online certificated courses appreciated? Such as in python, C or statistics for example

[mortal wedge]

They're absolutely right. I work with scientists and their code is a mess. Hell, I used to be a scientist with my code being a mess.

[autumn socket]

Having those on the CV i mean

[summer roost]

no

[mortal wedge]

Nope! The only exception is when a certain company is offering those certs and you're applying to them. For example, Google certs when you're applying to google, AWS cert when applying to Amazon, etc.

[summer roost]

or at least, generally not. They'd count much less than any coursework you could point to, and less than any completed projects you could link to on github or the like that show what things you built.

[autumn socket]

Whaat 😦

[mortal wedge]

The barrier of entry for those certs are really low. People could just cheat their way through it. They aren't seen as valuable.

[summer roost]

they might be better than worthless, but not much better than worthless.

[mortal wedge]

If you have literally nothing else better to put on your resume go ahead, but you can and should do better.

[autumn socket]

Ahh well ok, there's no way for me to learn those stuff other than online courses (unless i have it as a uni course). So i suppose i should work on having some self projects that portray i actually do have skills in those (python, statistics)

[summer roost]

assuming an MS degree results in you publishing a thesis that in some way leverages computation, that publication would buy you much more than any certs ever could.

[mortal wedge]

Let me clarify, certification courses can be extremely valuable in terms of experience you gain, they just aren't good proof of that experience gained to an employer

[summer roost]

^ yes

[autumn socket]

Yeah, good enough for me

I mean i can always end up just being a chemist as i intended, i just like learning this atm i can imagine myself not being not open to swapping fields

[mortal wedge]

Swapping fields is harder after you get a job, but not impossible. Also, there can be tons of overlap. For example, I have a programming job in neuroscience. There's no reason why you can't have a job that is part chemist part programmer

In fact, that sort of qualification/experience is very valuable in some spaces

[summer roost]

For a job that is part chemist part programmer, it's much easier for someone who has a chemistry degree to get the job than someone who has a programming degree.

[mortal wedge]

Yes

[autumn socket]

Makes sense xd

[spark cobalt]

A lot of certification courses generally advertise that their course contains a lot of information (in order to sell their certificate, somehow make the mindset of this certification will mean more than others) but in reality a lot can and will easily burn through your time.

Just be wary of your time. If you ever feel like a course is going too slowly, it's probably because it is. Many courses are created by people with very little development experience, quite a few courses are even made by students.

[autumn socket]

I chose this one python udemy course I'm doing rn instead of others based on advertised amount of exercises

[summer roost]

If you discover a passion for programming, 2 years of studying plus a STEM MS degree can definitely land you coding jobs.

[autumn socket]

By time i finish master's i ll be good then xD.. thanks all for the talk, gotta bounce now 😁

[quartz sage]

A good benchmark is being able to do “easy” tier leetcode qns?

[spark cobalt]

That is not reflective to the work you'd do as a data analyst.

[quartz sage]

I know how to use data packages like pandas numpy scikit sqlite seaborn matplotlib

But dont really know python python if u get what i mean . Like i know how to use such packages for data cleaning, transforming, visualisation etc but stuff like python skills not so much e.g solving a python problem or like know how to solve tower of hanoi

[blazing ivy]

Has anyone seen the ‘OpenAi’ website? I’m not sponsoring it, but I see this as an important subject as it could be a risk to the future of programming careers. For example, non-programmers are already able to code through ai, however within a few years it will have improved even more. whats your guys opinions on this??

[dreamy shadow]

Depends on the cost, but yes it'll hurt.

[spark cobalt]

Programmers will still be needed to at least check the code the AI is producing. It is a far larger feat for AI to completely replace a programmer than you think.

AI should probably be considered as an efficiency tool for developers rather than something actually able to replace them for the time being...

[summer roost]

The hard part of programming is translating business requests into consistent requirements that can be codified into systems. AI isn't gonna do that anytime soon. At best, it's a tool that will let programmers spend more time on the difficult and important stuff and less time on the tedious and unimportant stuff.

[vapid jay]

True, also the AI doesn't program itself. Its ability to generate code for anyone desiring a certain product requires an algorithm which programmers have to develop. So, alot of jobs would be required/created for open artificial intelligence.

[summer roost]

To me, it's like worrying that MS Word would put authors out of work by killing off the typewriter industry. It conflates the tool with the profession.

[dreamy shadow]

Rip the people who fixed type writers and manufactured them.

[vapid jay]

exactly lol. The threat of AI to programmers doesnt make much sense when you analyze the issue deeply.

but it is something to consider

[dreamy shadow]

Also, I hate companies that have stupid policies that prevent your work computer from going to sleep. So the fan keeps running loud af. (LOOKING AT MY COMPANY)

[summer roost]

Not a lot of scribes around these days, either.

[blazing ivy]

i’m not a programmer, but could yall please check out ‘OpenAi playground’? And try do some code with it just to see how good it is at the moment? it’s free too btw

[dreamy shadow]

Couldn't be bothered to create an account

[summer roost]

#announcements message is relevant

[dreamy shadow]

What was observed to be inaccurate?

[vapid jay]

It's really good, so good that microsoft was apearently stealing open-source code from public repositories on GitHub using open AI; (ever since mircrosoft bought GitHub). But I would say its not threatening to programmers ability to compete with computer generated code.

[dreamy shadow]

Also, with anything. It just has to be "good enough"

[spark cobalt]

https://discordapp.com/channels/267624335836053506/429409067623251969/1048785472761106572 Someone highlighted two instances of it being wrong here.

[summer roost]

But again: the hard part of programming is completely and consistently defining the problem. Non-developers are absolutely terrible at that. So in the end, someone still needs to do the work of codifying the rules and explaining the goals to the AI. And that becomes the new job of the programmer.

[vapid jay]

yep

[summer roost]

Even if the AI could solve all problems, someone needs to describe the problems.

[vapid jay]

@summer roost my new favorite mod :))

[blazing ivy]

What about for front end web developemnt??

[spark cobalt]

But as the person was quite literally just jumping to different questions and putting random stuff in ChatGPT, it can also be just the fault of the input rather than the fault of the ChatGPT (as questions asked in #1035199133436354600 are asked poorly quite often, the person could've by all means just be copy pasting the original message in ChatGPT)

[blazing ivy]

Yeah you got a good point though

[dreamy shadow]

I think those two examples are more so on the error of the user.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah it's possible.

[mortal wedge]

That’s something inherent to people seeking help, generally. They’re seeking help because they don’t know what to ask or google.

[spark cobalt]

Either way, expressing our needs/wants to AI is still difficult. Can easily go both ways.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah good point

[vapid jay]

AI is really interesting though and has limitless potential to solve alot of our problems. As it gets more advanced, im predicting more jobs will be created, except instead of how they are today, they will be in created code for the AI to solve problems instead of us directly dealing with them. Programming will never completely go away; not now anyway.

[summer roost]

If someone understands the problem well enough to explain it to a system that doesn't understand human desires, motivations, or values, then they could use a programming language to explain that today. The reason everyone can't program isn't that programming languages are complex and difficult to learn, its that formalizing your request to be executed by a system that does exactly what you tell it to, no more and no less, is very hard for humans.

[vapid jay]

True

[dreamy shadow]

Lmao stack overflow banned ai answers

[spark cobalt]

Cheapens their point system so makes sense.

[mortal wedge]

Hah....

[vapid jay]

Stack overflow is so toxic lmao

[spark cobalt]

It's basically Reddit.

[mortal wedge]

I use it as a resource but I do not engage in discussion there

[dreamy shadow]

Only thing toxic is the mf duplicates. "Might be a duplicate of X" My dude, did you even read the question?

[vapid jay]

You could ask how to print "hello world" and some expert whos been coding python since before he was born will roast the living crap out of you for asking :/

[summer roost]

I think the toxicity comes from a mismatch between how question askers view the site vs how the moderators and answerers do. It's not intended as a place for getting specific help on specific problems, but rather a database of programming knowledge in Q&A form. Users treat it like Reddit (an ephemeral topic-based timeline), moderators want it to be like Wikipedia (a cross linked database).

[dreamy shadow]

Reddit, where everyone is an expert until it's in your domain and you realize they sprouting bs

[summer roost]

I'm talking more in terms of the design and intent of the Reddit format than the community. Edited to clarify.

[vapid jay]

Pretty much, also people online, especially if the site isn't moderated well, are allowed to say things they wouldn't say to your face without any punishment. Which means they can say whatever they want whether hurtful or helpful and just not care. After all, sometimes toxicity is much louder than people genuinely trying to help.

But stack overflow is still useful most of the time if you just want a quick and easy copy and paste, or to find the solution to your issue without wasting too much time.

[dreamy shadow]

Also, I know stackoverflow acts more like a wiki due to how their answers are structured. Hence I don't have an account there. Nor at reddit lol

[dreamy shadow]

Need one line of code to set pandas column display settings.

Other websites: here's how my grandpa fought in WW2 and why it's relevant to code at hand
Stackoverflow: here's the code, and a minimum reproducible example.

[mortal wedge]

Whenever I tried to help or ask questions it told me I didn't have enough something points and I wasn't sure how to get them so I just stopped.

[agile estuary]

is there a where to start kind of section for AI/ML, similar to what we have for vanilla python on this server. Specially for people who have no background in mathematics and statistics?

Basically the pre-requisite and if one does not know them, then maybe the right order of learning those basics before jumping into AI/ML.

[near ocean]

Why not delete right now

[jaunty cove]

I'm referencing it

can't post pics in other channels he's teaching me something

[near ocean]

Theres literally 3 offtopic channels

[carmine swift]

Where? Ill move it

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384> is this an example of incidents the announcement is for?

[carmine swift]

It will b in help-potato parabolic

Sike, Ill find another channel

[jaunty cove]

haha

not seeing these off topic channels, and the ones I do see don't have image permissions

[carmine swift]

https://discordapp.com/channels/267624335836053506/291284109232308226

[jaunty cove]

and as for this being off topic, it is related to my career so I don't think it's actually off topic

[carmine swift]

macaroni channel^ world ending rule breaking crisis: officially averted

[near remnant]

is it inappropriate to leave a company dinner before the end time? the dinner will be held from 7PM to 9:30PM and I'm planning to leave at around 8:30PM to catch my train.

[white relic]

If you're currently on stage and being personally recognized for your achievements, leaving would be a faux pas

but otherwise, no, not in the US anyway.

If you're catching a train you probably aren't in the US lol

[near remnant]

so if I leave --> I should be getting fired, that is what you mean or I'm wrong?

[white relic]

No, it's completely normal to leave work functions early for personal reasons.

It might be a bit awkward depending on the nature of the dinner, like, I've been at functions where people were supposed to get awards and they had to leave before receiving the award

[near remnant]

Haha, no its just a christmas, end of the year thing

[white relic]

yeah that's 100% normal. You'll probably notice people leaving before you.

[near remnant]

yeah, probably

[white relic]

Europe?

You don't have to answer, but the location can matter for questions like that.

[near ocean]

You worry too much, leave early, but explain why and say good night to your people
Dont leave irish

[digital fjord]

yeah, it's perfectly normal to just leave when you need to leave.

[near ocean]

Whats the alternative really, to sleep on a bench?

[near remnant]

yes

[near remnant]

yeah, I worry too much dude..that is my biggest concern

[near remnant]

I have to travel by train 3 hours before and after the dinner, I work remotely and I only go to the city because of this dinner. So I try to leave as soon as possible.

[near ocean]

The key is to meet and chat to your coworkers, not to sit through the whole thing

[near remnant]

Yeah, you are right. I think 1,5-2 hours of that should be enough, right?

[white relic]

Easily. Don't stress, have fun, allow plenty of time to catch the train.

[full tusk]

like patience is the key smthing ?

[near ocean]

Thats not what the topic is about

[near remnant]

Thanks guys for the help

[vapid jay]

Hi I am new to python, where do i build the foundation of my knowledge to python? I want to become python dev

[near ocean]

In #python-discussion and using !resources

[gritty rivet]

If you expect to make a living, very, very extremely good. If you'll work for peanuts, just very good.

of course there is no way to quantify this... look at the competition yourself and if you think you can compete, give it a go

[peak halo]

I think you're underestimating how much knowledge and experience is required to monetize ones programming skills.

[near ocean]

It means you need to be disproportionately good at this to make a decent salary freelancing

[rose gale]

hi i have bit of a dumb question but is there any way u can make money using python?

[near ocean]

This is the career channel in a python server

[rose gale]

yes

but i think this channel is about helping people getting a job or something like that

[near ocean]

Jobs using python
Or answering questions about software development careers

[rose gale]

hmm

[near ocean]

Do you have a follow up

[rose gale]

ehm not really, no

[near ocean]

Glad I could help

[rose gale]

thx 🙂

[obtuse slate]

can anyone help me on my coding i m currently facing issue

[rancid vault]

Hi guys! I'm currently a freshman year in college with a major of Computer Science, planning to shift my major to Data Science, can you guide me on this? I really wanted to have a good background on Machine Learning, also more on being proficient in languages, and I'm also interested in Business stuffs that has huge involvement with Tech stuffs or Software and I also wanted to know which major is harder.
When I started college, I really wasn't sure what to take, but I'm certain to take that involves computers since I was fascinated with those stuff when I was still a kid and wanted to take shot on a career path in the tech industry or many do a software/tech startup? I still really don't know what I really wanna do.

[rotund spire]

Guys which library u use for your discord bots

[rancid vault]

If possible can you also do a compare and contrast between computer science and data science, and which one is harder

[near ocean]

In my own opinion its much better career wise to have a more general bachelors like Computer Science, if you then want to go into DS you could do postgrad studies that are more specialised

But I say this as a CS grad, so there is bias
I can see my econ and DS friends struggling to find jobs because DS is narrower in scope than CS

[fallow tusk]

ayo its been around 5 months since i graduated and im still unemployed and i haven't tried applying for jobs because i think im underqualified whats the move for me? i created 2 personal projects simple a blog and karaoke web app but i am thinking that theres more to it when working with real production level projects

[true harness]

you should also ask the academic advisors at your school, they would know specifically about the programs

[peak halo]

graduated with what degree? how many jobs have you applied to?

[true harness]

why do you think you're underqualified?

[fallow tusk]

computer science and i have 0 jobs applied i haven't tried

[peak halo]

you haven't applied to any jobs?

[fallow tusk]

the job requirements are composed of so much example im looking for django dev job and the requirements are like django , stuff, stuff ,stufff like that

[fallow tusk]

yep should i just yoink it and try applying?

but what if i got accepted then i dont know the task given to me is it ok to still study while working?

[true harness]

yes, it's understood that as a junior you will be learning a lot. plus, if they accept you for the job, then they believe you can do the job

[fallow tusk]

but in case they accepted me mistakenly that i can do the job but ended up not able to do it whats gonna happen ? they will probably replace me?

[near ocean]

Are you not going to learn the technologies they use? Why would they replace you

[true harness]

hiring someone takes a lot of time and money. it's cheaper to give you some time to learn things than to fire you and try and hire someone else

[fallow tusk]

oh i see they will give me time to adapt and learn ?

[near ocean]

Yes, theres onboarding, theres probation (probably) theres time to learn
When i joined my current company i was told they didnt expect me to meaningfully contribute until probably after the first year

It takes time to dive into huge established codebases and/or learn new tech

[fallow tusk]

what is your state before you land your first job? are you confident well versed on the field?

[near ocean]

No lol, i was just some child that graduated mid pandemic
I took the first job that i heard back from

That was july last year, moved from that position now

[fallow tusk]

wow hahah maybe im overthinking

[near ocean]

You could have 20 years experience and probably never hit all checkmarks on some of these job ads, theyre nonensical
Just apply to everything that looks interesting

Not sure if the market is better now, but i think its still pretty much an employer's market

[fallow tusk]

i think i might probably do this yeah ill just go apply to jobs i find interesting and just hope for the best

[fallow tusk]

what does this mean?

[near ocean]

It means employers have the power and choice (in junior devs anyway) theres an abundance of us juniors and enough positions for all of us

[fallow tusk]

oh you mean supply is greater than demand that kinda stuff?

i think i dont bother much with salary im more curious if i can handle the job or progress further atleast for now haha

[near ocean]

You probably can handle a junior dev job, i dont know you but i imagine if you've built a couple projects you'd be fine
The selling point is being able to learn more and fast

The job isnt as hard as people might think

(but I do UI so what do I know lmao)

[fallow tusk]

oh i hate UI i just used bootstrap on my projects 🫡

[peak halo]

I got a job in AI with only a BSc in CS, but I agree. I had to do a lot of extra work to cultivate a niche skillset (NLP), and I was only able to do that extra work in the first place because I was lucky enough to have those opportunities available.

[lost apex]

[lime bramble]

Hi guys how is work life going on?

[valid bronze]

right now It's not going xd, I would love to get entry level job as python developer, nothing too serious, part time fixing or writing code, does anyone have suggestion

[near ocean]

Fix up your cv and apply to jobs
Part time work is going to be rare
Whats your education like?

[delicate bane]

nothing too serious
what does this mean

idk if part time python jobs are really a thing

i mean theres freelancing but thats a whole other can of worms

[delicate bane]

very interesting to see.

source: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/state-of-the-labor-market-6996189249851076608

this also makes sense to me. everyone wants a remote gig lol

[valid bronze]

my education, 4th year in high school, mechatronics, nothing to do with software but I learned C++ and python on my own, I know basic stuff I write clean code but never done any serious big project, basic understanding of algorithms....I'm not searching for anything high paying, something where I have to be forced to do task for someones desires, minimum pay, it sounds fun to be a part of something like that

[valid bronze]

I can't write 300 lines code for someone, but I can use google, fix bugs in code and understand it, I can also come up with solution if needed and If I have enough time to do research

[smoky quest]

If you want to be hired as a developer, there will be a lot of competition.
That means you should:

• Have projects to demonstrate your skills. If you don't have any project, that's something to work on
• You should have a minimum of algorithmic proficiency. It's not the best metric, but that would mean being able to do medium leetcode problems without looking them up on google/stackoverflow/internet in 20min

[valid bronze]

aham, so...how do I find good project to work on? should I create something what I come up to in my mind or can I just google top python project for beginners and do something like that?
also, any good resource to learn algorithms on my own? book/video

[smoky quest]

For projects, yes. You could also re-implement popular app/websites (ex: youtube, discord, facebook, amazon, etc.)

For resources, I would recommend https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Algorithms-fourth-Thomas-Cormen/dp/026204630X/

Note also that in terms of finding jobs, frontend roles are "easier" (still tons of competition) to get in than python

[valid bronze]

but, do I must aim for web development? I really hate web development, I tried bootcamp in summer on html,css,javascript, and I was bored to death, but I liked developing programs in C++.....is there entry level python job that has nothing to do with web?

[spark cobalt]

Just also a note, fuckton of people have done e-commerce website, or Netflix/Shopify clones, etc. Try to do something that's fresh, able to help you grow without giving you the copout of relying on someone else's iteration of whatever clone you do.

[smoky quest]

More complex jobs do have higher requirements of entry.
Nothing is impossible but it doesn't mean it's likely

[valid bronze]

for more complex jobs you mean something other that web development?

[smoky quest]

tbh, the nature of the project doesn't matter as long as it's not copy/pasted and does demonstrate the skills

[buoyant seal]

300 code lines? U need more practice.
Regular junior can code a lot of code (of different quality) of way more size.
Some project implementing game/website or whatever suggested above.

U need to be at least not afraid of writing and reading code

[smoky quest]

exactly!

[spark cobalt]

Yep, a big barrier a lot of people run into is learning how to embrace being uncomfortable 🙂

[valid bronze]

that's fine with me, I said not being able to do 300 liner bcs I have never tried until now 😄

so.....web dev or....? (), what is out there beginner friendly instead of that?

[spark cobalt]

You can get into full-stack, and use that as a way to just dive into only backend related roles.

[buoyant seal]

The one that u like the most.
Web Dev / mobile dev / desktop development / embedded

I would advice only against choosing to become Swift/Apple Dev for macos/iOS xD some things should not be chosen imo

[delicate bane]

beginner friendly that isnt web dev? hmm.

[valid bronze]

sorry that I don't understand this perfectly, when talking about backend/frontend, is that only for web related stuff or does that terms apply to any kind of development?

[delicate bane]

ehh technically you can have an application with the same backend but separate mobile + web frontends

[valid bronze]

hahahah alright alright, I like the idea of embedded, I didn't know I can apply to code that, I have a ton of experiance with arduino and RP4, lots of projects too

[polar hearth]

How much python do you really need to know to consider getting a job in python? Ive been writing python for about 3 years now, all self taught but have done a fair few projects, do AOC etc.

[tired rock]

Do you guys think having a poor credit score will affect the odds of me getting a Job, Im currently a struggling college student.

[spark cobalt]

Depends on what type of job in Python. You can be an expert in Python but still fail to perform in an AI/ML role. What are you aiming for?

[cosmic forge]

I was just very close to a job, just to realize I was not fit for it because I do not remember web scraping. is there anything I can do to guarantee that this wont happen again?

[spark cobalt]

You do a lot of learning on the job...

just to realize I was not fit for it
By this do you mean you discounted yourself out of a job offer?

[polar hearth]

Not sure really - maybe data? I have a strong maths background (MEng degree etc) and have a good career currently as an engineer. Just considering a change to something I enjoy more.

[vapid jay]

I was told that things like neuro and human analytics use comp Sci and psychology. Anyone have any experience with either?

[cosmic forge]

the offer was 15 dollars (my offer) to scrape a list of products and their definitions off of a website. but I have not done web scraping in years, so I forgot how.

[polar hearth]

Is it worth doing a masters degree in comp sci or is it a needless cost (£12k+)

[spark cobalt]

What's stopping you from picking it up again?

[cosmic forge]

he just said that he was sorry but he does not want to waste his or my time anymore

[delicate bane]

some consider bootcamps sufficient but it depends on how much effort you put in yourself/the type of role you are aiming for.

[spark cobalt]

If you have the degree to back up the math involved in DS, then yes you should be fine. Next step would just be having related projects.

[cosmic forge]

Ive been coding for around 4 years, but every time, I just end up having to reteach myself because I forget everything. and I do not even teach myself, i just watch coding tutorials and end up learning close to nothing. I want to actually learn, but I just cannot focus reading documentation, or learning any other way, I want to learn in a classroom-like environment, but that is kinda hard to do considering im not in college yet. I want to be a software engineer, but I literally just can not focus at all and can not teach myself without ending up looking at a youtube video. For example, I have been trying to make a non linear video editor for 2-3 months now, and I have not done anything. Just because of the fact, there is no code that makes sense to me, that I can end up copying. Please help

Trying to make something without a tutorial just gets me bummed out and I end up quitting within minutes. because I do not understand anything.

[smoky quest]

If you are starting out, a non linear video editor is a very bad project. Try something much simpler like a hangman.
Also try websites like codingames which can be fun

[delicate bane]

or tic tac toe

[cosmic forge]

that sounds incredibly difficult to me. I do not know what libraries to learn in order to do so, and I dont know how to learn

[spark cobalt]

Sounds like you're in tutorial hell.

Embrace being uncomfortable, everyone has to go through this. If learning to be a software engineer was so easy, everyone would do it and well, the role wouldn't be as delirious as it is now.

Go at a pace that you can do projects by yourself.

[cosmic forge]

How do i find that pace?

[spark cobalt]

Fairly sure they mean within the console.

[smoky quest]

Have you tried going through https://automatetheboringstuff.com/ ?

[polar hearth]

Engineering is basically applied maths so I feel another degree would need to teach the specifics. What kinds of projects are useful. I have a few under my belt but nothing I would talk about as exciting. I do try to complete AOC so thats maybe something but its somewhat artificial in its nature.

[vapid jay]

Got some questions for developers (if anyone wants to share their experiences): do you enjoy your job? How long have you been in it? Is it what you expected? If not, what’s different?

[spark cobalt]

Start doing simple projects that don't require any packages or frameworks. Simple console games like tic-tac-toe and hangman do this well. Then extend to frameworks/libraries.

Instead of copying a tutorial to learn a framework or library, read a book or documentation to understand the underlying ideas, best practices, concepts behind using such framework or library. Then use it to apply to whatever you need to do. (Most books will still have example mini-projects you can apply yourself to.)

[cosmic forge]

what are some books you would recommend?

[spark cobalt]

Well it would depends on what you want to learn.

[cosmic forge]

I want to learn whatever is useful for my future/future job

[spark cobalt]

The CS industry is super fucking wide. And generally they all pay well (except notoriously game development). That is simply not enough. If you do something that fascinates you, and keeps you interested, you'll generally be able to excel in that field much better.

[cosmic forge]

game development fascinates me 💀

[vapid jay]

It fascinates everyone, that’s unfortunately why the salaries don’t compare to the other fields 😦

[cosmic forge]

ah

[polar hearth]

Just because it pays less doesnt mean its not worth doing if you enjoy it

[cosmic forge]

ive been in "tutorial hell" for 4 years, 1 and a half of those was game dev

[spark cobalt]

Also back on the project point, a lot of beginners avoid the planning parts of a project. Draw out diagrams to figure out how data will flow in a project. To be a software developer isn't to just code the entire time, but to strategically figure out exactly the demands of the project are, how you will structure and design the project to meet that end, etc.

[polar hearth]

Maybe step away from tutorials. I dont think they are a good way of learning

[delicate bane]

thats true.

[cosmic forge]

how would data flow in hangman?

[spark cobalt]

Yes. Couple of months. Expected more work tbh, but that's mostly because I'm in phase of switching between projects and got sick so lots of delays in things which I didn't like. Rn feels so slow... (hence, why I'm here )

[polar hearth]

I think this is where I struggle - that and taking on too much at once. Is there a good way of learning this?

[vapid jay]

Gotcha, thank you for sharing!

[spark cobalt]

That's for you to figure out yourself 🙂

[cosmic forge]

also even without tutorials i just look at stack overflow stuff and copy, so thats another issue

not completely copy ig

[polar hearth]

Copying isnt the problem. As long as you understand it and could come back to it next time its fine

[spark cobalt]

It's just like taking notes. Everyone takes notes differently to maximize their learning. Same thing for here. Find your comfort way to learn how to communicate with diagrams and pictures. (This is often also very helpful in technical interviews in the future if you're trying to explain your ideas in a simple manner. Diagrams often achieve this the fastest.)

[spark cobalt]

It is a problem.

Not only do you restrict yourself to learning one way of creating an application (typically most framework/languages have conflicted pros and cons to different ways to make the same thing), but you also likely fall into the issue if dealing with something outdated, dealing with shitty code structure and design (most of these tutorial makers are very very junior in their careers), but you also just don't ever get a chance to learn about the framework itself if copying someone else is the only way you can do so.

Doing a project should enable you to excel to a more complicated project. Copying doesn't give you the tools necessary to do that. At most, it gives you the tools to do the same things and make little changes here and there... (which you're ultimately still copying most of the time)

[delicate bane]

there are parts i like and parts i dont like. started FT for several months already but i was an intern on 2 separate teams previously. some parts arent as i expected it would be but thats really the nature of the role as a data scientist as @ Skyglow would also attest to. rarely does the average company have mature data processes sufficient for DS to be doing ML model work all the time.

[spark cobalt]

Most developers do this from day to day. The difference is they don't blindly just put in code and pray it works (we call that monkey coding.) But they're able to understand why their code went wrong, why the author on SO's code went right, and know exactly where to put it, the potential drawbacks, other issues that may arise, etc.

[cosmic forge]

how would i randomly generate a word?

[delicate bane]

even rarer do they have dedicated engineers to help deploy those models or integrate them into other applications so guess where that work falls to. which honestly i enjoy deployment but i know others like my coworker just dont have the chops to do it lol.

[spark cobalt]

• Does the word have to be from the English language?
• Does the word have to be at least a certain number of characters?
• Does the word have to be a part of any language, can we just make a random collection of letters?

For example, Worldle. They have a different demand of what their randomly generated word must be. It has to be 5 characters (they have a pre-determined list already, this is also important, where you get your data of words from), and has to not be a word that was previously ran before (I just made this up, I don't know if true.)

[cosmic forge]

the word has to be english, at least 3 letters

[spark cobalt]

I'm just providing you a way to think about this. Not trying to give you any answers.

[cosmic forge]

hm alright

[spark cobalt]

It's more than just how to build a CRUD app, it's more than just how to do x.

[cosmic forge]

CRUD?

[spark cobalt]

Create Read Update Delete, typically beginner apps, often in the form of to-do lists

[cosmic forge]

ohh

[spark cobalt]

You'd probably get flamed if you asked that question on SO

Super vague question. Also someone likely asked before.

[cosmic forge]

im using random.choice but its printing out every word, what the hel

[spark cobalt]

Probably want to go to #1035199133436354600 or ask in #python-discussion. Wrong channel for this.

[vapid jay]

thank you for sharing 🙂

[cosmic forge]

i did not put commas, but I will talk in there in the future

[delicate bane]

np. i know people have asked this question in the past so if you are interested, you can probably search for it in this channel

[cosmic forge]

so turns trying to code something by yourself with no outside help is extremely stressful and is not fun

[vapid jay]

then maybe reconsider whether it's the field for you. if you don't enjoy the process, it'll be a long 50 year career

[cosmic forge]

but i don’t know anything else that i wanna do

[vapid jay]

so try things, see what you enjoy. Or, if you're still learning, persevere through the struggle and maybe you'll enjoy it more at the end. The main difference between a tutorial and writing something from scratch is that the tutorial will break down the logic for you in most instances. Get a piece of paper, write down the logic, use a site like diagrams to create a flowchart for your project, then write it into your IDE in pseudo code. From there, coding it out should be far easier

[vapid jay]

https://www.diagrams.net/
that's what I use for my flowcharts

the main thing for learning to be a programmer isn't learning to write code, it's learning how to think and the logic behind the code... how to break problems down into baby steps

[valid bronze]

is somebody interested in group project for portofolio? someone who is searching for a job and would love to make a group project(max 2-3 people), if yes, contact me in DM 😄

[spark cobalt]

Why do you want to code?

Ok fair enough

[spark cobalt]

If you don't enjoy coding, you'll just have to fight through it for the next 30 years, if you make it a career that is 😄

[near ocean]

And also probably not be as good at it as people who enjoy it

[spark cobalt]

Yep

[cosmic forge]

i enjoy creating things

[spark cobalt]

Then why is creating things without relying on essentially copying someone else unenjoyable for you?

Is it moreso you like the product, but dislike the process?

[near ocean]

In what sense do you enjoy creating things? Programming could and does fall under that but you dont like it you said

[cosmic forge]

i’m hindsight it is fun idk

[spark cobalt]

Maybe what you're creating is also something to consider

If you've been programming for 4 years, have you discovered what various roles you would like to take on in tech? Anything in tech that fascinates you?

You would probably gain more if you focused on what you actually wanted to do and something that genuinely interested you. Monetarily wise, QOL wise, motivation/encouragement, etc.

[cosmic forge]

i’ve always liked game dev lol, with like unity

[spark cobalt]

Sure. If you were really passionate about game development and willing to push your skills to the limit, you will stand out from other developers in the game developer sphere.

[cosmic forge]

hmm alright

[median moat]

I've been studying and coding for about a year and a half now, and I'm finally prepared to start applying to freelance jobs and other more "serious" positions. I've got 2 projects that I got through Upwork under my belt but their source code is private as it doesn't belong to me and its actual production code, so other than my GitHub profile (which shows numerous daily commits since, say, 6 months ago) I've got no actual "portfolio" to display. Will this affect me too much? How can I solve it?

[buoyant seal]

if u have no bachelor's degree, i think you should create portfolio (or getting degree)

[median moat]

I'm a student of Systems Engineering. My problem with the portfolio idea is that it's often times a collection of very simple projects with no actual use in the "real world". How can I leverage the projects I already completed?

[smoky quest]

Make a project that would demonstrate your skills. So look at the jobs you want to be hired in, their required skills and then device a project that showcases these skills

[lethal saffron]

What could I use as username for a gmail, something professional but without having to use my full name ?

[graceful mason]

Why can't you use your name for a professional email?

[lethal saffron]

I can, I rather not.

[spark cobalt]

Why?

If you have a use case for an email that is going to be used non-professionally and don't wanna share your name, then make a separate email.

[lethal saffron]

right

[graceful mason]

What about just your first name? You want to be easily identifiable to recruiters etc

[lethal saffron]

Yeah I can do that, or maybe just initials ?

[buoyant seal]

indeed. That's why i just have... 5+ Gmail accounts with set automatic sending to my main account, that can reuse my child accounts for sending mail from their name.
Quite useful. Each new job gets new gmail account xD new space to save stuff

[spark cobalt]

Perhaps initial of first name, and full last name is most professional (besides full name)

[graceful mason]

Initials probably aren't as good - maybe first name + initial of surname?

[lethal saffron]

Having numbers in the username is not recommended right ?

[spark cobalt]

Shouldn't matter too much.

[true harness]

!rule hire

[inner wren]

Rules

The rules and guidelines that apply to this community can be found on our rules page. We expect all members of the community to have read and understood these.

[true harness]

!rule work

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[buoyant seal]

<@&831776746206265384> 🧹

[summer roost]

Please delete this. We don't allow advertising on our server.

[true harness]

very sad that rust goes under blockchain 😔

[buoyant seal]

aren't u able to delete it on your own? u a moderator 😐

[mint mason]

Hello people

[near ocean]

But also very 💸💸💸

[upper basin]

w

[smoky quest]

Hi!
Any question or topic of conversation?

[ivory sluice]

fyi moderators won't necessarily delete messages if we think there's a chance the user might oblige when asked. we want a community where people can interact with reason. i also hope you don't view the moderation team as a clean up crew you summon to do your bidding, so please respect their judgment. we're here to help build a community and immediately obliterating messages isn't always the right call and can be a poor experience for the user to see their messages deleted without warning. but to answer your question, yes moderators have the ability to delete messages.

[buoyant seal]

Very thoughtful / kind / human / pedagogically patient

[ivory sluice]

thanks for reading, i really appreciate it

[spare zinc]

Hi there!

How did you gather professional experience before joining a job in a company?

[summer roost]

It's basically impossible to. The normal definition of "professional" is that you were paid to do the thing. You get your first professional experience as a developer when someone hires you to write code.

Internships and apprenticeships are many people's first professional experiences

[smoky quest]

A degree in CS goes a long in demonstrating proficiency as well

[spare zinc]

Sometimes even having these not enough, and it depends on the requirement from company side

[gilded valley]

What do you mean not enough?

If you have had an internship or two and a degree, you are definitely qualified for a job - if you're struggling at that point, you need to look to things like performance in interviews

[spare zinc]

There's situation, when I didn't give the offer due to the words from last stage of interview, when they told me you don't have CS degree

[spark cobalt]

It's possible it's still an interview related issue, as they likely knew you didn't have a CS degree from reading your resume beforehand and just attributed whatever came up in the interview that they didn't like to the lack of a degree

Companies take a loss during interviews by using time a developer can be developing to interview you. As you can expect, there's a level of vetting before they do this, and if they wouldn't hire a CS degree to begin with, they wouldn't have interviewed you.

[novel pike]

hi

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
Is there a question or a topic of discussion related to careers?

[novel pike]

can you give reccomondation for an easy open source project?
i want to make a github portfolio and gain coding experience

[smoky quest]

you could look at https://firstcontributions.github.io/

[novel pike]

alright thanks

[vapid jay]

theres two ways here

or maybe three, i also know people who knew nothing and ended up in leadership positions by pure force of will

The two ways are, there are some companies who love white-boarding and making you make a tree dance, and there are others who are looking at open source contributions as a marker that you can understand a large code base and contribute to it

[hasty harness]

how reliable are remote jobs?

what do you guys think about it? will there me many remote jobs in future?

[near ocean]

Reliable in what way?

[balmy mural]

Rex posted a graph here indicating that remote work is getting less, but I doubt it'll ever go as low as pre pandemic again

Saying remote jobs are getting less is wrong though. Remote openings:Remote applicants are decreasing. So competition for those openings are increasing either due to more applicants or less openings

[hasty mango]

Hii! I am new to programming and I want to learn hacking. Can anyone guide me about where to start??

[gritty rivet]

There must be more relevant servers then this one but you could try #cybersecurity

[gritty rivet]

If you don't currently have one, good luck finding one: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/11/27/remote-jobs-economy/

[delicate bane]

yeah its that competition piece for sure. there was another graph about how remote positions had more applicants applying than non-remote ones. which makes sense to me lol

[prisma hollow]

Is it just me not getting a job? Or job market is really down

[worn ferry]

what are u into?

[prisma hollow]

Back end (Fresher) mostly but can work with angular and data

[worn ferry]

umm hmm...i am currently planning to be a software engineer or data analyst ...but after ur take i feel a lil insecure on my job basis

where are u from either ways

[prisma hollow]

Im already in disadvantage since my degree is from india and I'm searching job in usa

[worn ferry]

m from india too

wanna come in vc 1? if you dont mind?

just some tips we could talk abt prolly?

[prisma hollow]

I can't rn, im working part time on break

[worn ferry]

cool no problem ....good lck with it!!

[prisma hollow]

After workin in non IT jobs, im glad I'm in IT 😅

[worn ferry]

mind checking ur dms whenever ur free

[prisma hollow]

Sure

[hasty harness]

I wonder how it will affect the job scenarios. People nowadays prefer WFH than raise in salary(unless its a massive raise)
Wouldn't companies offer more wfh jobs to save money not salary wise but also in-office expense wise?

[spare zinc]

Contribution is the best. However it's hard to understand the process and roadmap from the start

[delicate bane]

many companies are still paying these multi-year leases for very expensive office space. usually in high CoL cities. now they are seeing these spaces go to waste if they arent using them.

obv this is different for remote-first companies/dependent on company culture

also this was interesting. from pragmatic:

[sleek egret]

shit happens

[noble tusk]

so is this good resource to learn or no?

What is up to date resource like that both Universities and People use it ?

[true harness]

up to date resources in university? impossible

[noble tusk]

for example i know Programming: Principles and Practice have been used by both

well not up to date but atleast provides some values which can be aged 100 years like OOP and stuff

or Python 3 i know especially Oreilly books can provide that feeling

but why are they not used by Universities then?

[sleek egret]

there are very few Software Engineering programs left at universities. "Computer Science" has essentially won. And CS is not about programming.

further, those sort of books are practical in nature while universities tend to focus on the general theory

[true harness]

i think it's the opposite. there are more software engineering programs now than before. furthermore, almost all concepts in CS can be related to real world usecases. so while CS isn't about programming per se, it's not very practical to teach CS in a vacuum

[mortal wedge]

I have quite a few people reaching out to me with interview requests. However, I've had a recent death in the family. I really want to push all my interviews to next week because of this. Here's my question, do I tell them the reason for why I'm pushing interview to next week? Or do I just say I'm busy and need to push it to next week?

[gritty rivet]

Depending on exactly how the exchange goes, you don't need to "push" anything, just propose a date that's good for you