career-advice

[dawn flicker]

not really just started in IT and worked my way up

[buoyant seal]

Describe what job experience u have so far
What is your job specialization,
and preferably describe what is your goal to be in several years in terms of jobs roles,
what is your technology stack at the moment
Which secondary job specializations u a interested in
To develop for which possibly target platforms u wish
(Shortly speaking drop your resume here, and we will be able to recommend)

[rapid heart]

hey guys Im a linux/windows sysadmin and im 20, but I'm unhappy with my job and want to become a python dev. What should I do first?

is there any course/certification I should get?

[buoyant seal]

Preferably u should get CS degree (or any other STEM degree), then entering IT will be magnitude times easier

if u would compliment CS degree with good self education, i would say it is almost guaranteed chance to succeed

[true harness]

if you're already working, you can probably find ways to use python at your current job

[buoyant seal]

As LInux sysadmin there is an option to try going into DevOps engineers

[rapid heart]

yeah but I only know the basics of python and I dont know how to proceed

[rapid heart]

would an online cs degree be fine? I'm from italy and I should study after work (I need to work, cant drop rn) to get a CS degree so the only option would be a Telematic University

[buoyant seal]

Highly likely yes. 3 years program, 171 ECTS. Fits enough to me. Some university have bachelor's degree for 240 ECTS, others for 180 ECTS, numbers match to qualify for higher education

just check which documents u will receive after that

[gritty rivet]

On LinkedIn you can search profiles of people who graduated from a given degree program. You can see how those people are doing professionally and ask their advice

[tired stone]

.joke

[sharp thunder]

Hi guys, does anyone know regression testing? And would knowing it be beneficial for jobs?

[buoyant seal]

i think we are already doing it not intentionally usually

automated CI pipeline of tests ensures to run all tests at every commit
And if we discover bug introduced after added new features or refactorizations -> we cover missing part of code with more tests
So kind of regression testing happens automatically if u have automated tests with good coverage and automated CI pipeline

[gritty rivet]

I wouldn't consider that a specific skill. But there are a lot of jobs that focus on testing/quality assurance

[sharp thunder]

Ahh got it then. This makes more sense then. Because my new job working at the bank wants to teach me it though I thought it was automatic and not manual

[buoyant seal]

Shrugs. Check what they teach, may be they assume like Mutation Testing for that under hood

(this is technique to break code on purpose with special libraries for this, and covering in tests discovered missing code parts/functionality)
or something else
Usually when people teach, they have program of resources provided for that

[buoyant seal]

Even if u know something, there is always an option to learn something more in depth 🙂 May be they teach some kind of heavy theory for that to understand this better

[sharp thunder]

This is what I got here, “Regression testing for new releases on specific products (training provided)” so I guess this would be a kind of good foot in the door to coding jobs in the future ?

They’ll tell me in orientation day what the product will be though

[buoyant seal]

well, certainly. It will be very useful... as long as u learn how to do it as a code automatically manual testing is meh

[sharp thunder]

@buoyant seal I’d like to learn more about doing it in code automatically before my job starts. Which would be the best site or videos to look at to be ahead of the game?

[buoyant seal]

What is expected job role, responsibilities and technological stack

(Which programming languages u already know at some degree, and which one is expected being applied at job)

[sharp thunder]

@buoyant seal system administration work. systems, development and technical support related to maintaining security certificates, testing and reporting data to management, etc

I’ve done a lot with PowerShell and Linux, but just done python labs at home though no work experience

[buoyant seal]

what is expected OS platform for servers?

what do u know about already used technological stack?

[sharp thunder]

@buoyant seal I can see they use windows for their OS though the stacks for their company, I’d need to ask more

[vapid jay]

Guys

[buoyant seal]

clarify from them:
What is their programming languages (for backend/frontend?), clarify which frameworks they use
What OS they were going to use for servers / and or already using
What are already used infrastructure instruments at the moment
What are their databases types / any other objects they need
What kind of other development they have as target platform, do they develop web, or mobile, or desktop
Clarify expected amount of accumulated data per month / per year / expected amount of users / expected traffic amount
Expected hardware resources need (CPU/RAM for their program)
Expected code architecture in terms of infrastructure will be nice to know, if they go Monolith or Microservices. If they use some kind of Message Queue patterns or anything else to distribute workload horizontally

Anything they will answer, will be helpful to plan better what to learn and what to use

[sharp thunder]

@buoyant seal noted, I’ll ask. Be good for my resume afterward

[vapid jay]

How can I find entry-level opportunities?

[mortal wedge]

Finding and securing entry-level opportunities might be the toughest step of developing a CS career. There's essentially two avenues, hitting up job boards or networking. Depending on country, job boards like linkedin, indeed, monster, zip recruiter all have entry level opporunities. Networking is how some people prefer to do it, even though it takes a bit more leg and mouth work. Going to industry events, finding a friend of a friend who works at the company you want to, some universities even have career resources/networking programs you can take advantage of.

[mortal wedge]

ESpecially after Covid, online learning really isn't looked down upon anymore like it used to be. You'd probably be fine.

[mossy solar]

Hi There!

I am currently studying BSCS 5th Semester. 3 months back I started freelancing and I have realized by now that university is not injecting market level skill.

Now polishing skills while doing university side by side sounds alot difficult to me.

Now what should be the best move:

1. take a break for year and polish my skills on my own

2. complete the bachelors and then polish skills.

Or any other thoughts

[gritty rivet]

Don't underestimate your skills if you haven't been applying for jobs. If you really cannot get a job you can keep working on them while you continue applying for jobs. If possible do an internship before you graduate

[mossy solar]

Sure, Thanks 👍

[peak halo]

Now polishing skills while doing university side by side sounds alot difficult to me.
That's something CS students have to do. Despite being the degree program that programmers are expected to do, CS programs are not trade schools for programmers.

and yes, you should aim to do internships each summer until you graduate.

[mossy solar]

Got it. I will continue then and have to manage my learning side by side and will also look for internships. Thanks for the suggestion.

[mortal wedge]

The problem is that for most companies, your degree is the best marker of your skill. Getting jobs in your career isn't necessarily about your skill level, it's about your proof of your skill level. I highly recommend against taking time off uni, because even if you're more effective at teaching yourself than you are at learning from the coursework, an employer has no idea how good you are if you're self-taught but they know/believe that universities have standards so are more likely to believe you have the requisite skills when you have a degree.

[mossy solar]

Yup you are right about this. Thanks for the advice mate😀.

[smoky quest]

Complete your bachelors and then polish skills.

The goal of university/college is not to make you a python developer or a javascript developer. It's to provide you an education and the fundamentals that will serve you your whole career.
If school was there to teach you python, that would be a waste of time since it's something anyone can pick up quickly on their own.

[true harness]

honestly, compared to university courses, your average framework is really not that difficult. build up projects in your free time and you'll be ok

[solemn socket]

guys I just passed my GIAC GPEN, first course I have taken in almost 10 years and super chuffed with myself. I went to school for business, not tech, but work in infosec. Lack of paper has always been something on my mind and a constant worry. Proving to myself that I could do it feels very rewarding. Thx for reading I just had to rave to someone about it

[smoky quest]

congrats!

[solemn socket]

being honest though if someone asked me if I know python at this moment Id say barely 😛

[buoyant seal]

🙂 golden rule, assume u know nothing all the time, unless you are at interview where u are needed to sell youself for better price

[solemn socket]

yep, that has worked for me so far. It's easy, the idea is validated every day when I have no idea what I'm doing. I think I spend most of my time at work on stack x or google, lol.

[little abyss]

When should I start learning new programming language? It's been a year since I started learning Python, I'm thinking about switching to Java but idk if it's the right time

[night badger]

When you find yourself backed up against a wall with the current language. What do you hope to achieve by learning java?

[little abyss]

I want to learn Java because it's popular tbh 😅 AND to learn OOP I heard it's the most used language for OOP

[night badger]

That's not a good reason in my opinion. You can learn most of the good parts of OOP in Python, and I believe it's better to become really confortable with one thing before skipping to something else

[true harness]

it is definitely a viable reason to learn something because it's popular. java is very commonly used in industry and it will help you get hired more than just knowing python. as for the oop part, not really

[night badger]

I'd say it's a viable reason to pick one language rather than an other once you're confortable with the one you're currently learning

But until then, and if you're not facing any issues, it's just spreading yourself thin. Especially for your first and second languages

[little abyss]

That's my problem... How do I know when to switch ? How do I know if I learned enough concepts from python?

[smoky quest]

Basically yes.
The problem with switching too early is you will duplicate some of the efforts. But once you are comfortable with one language, learning another is much easier and help see different ways to see problems and to resolve them.
As part of the journey of becoming an engineer, I would encourage you to learn different languages with different focus and paradigms.

[solemn socket]

I tried C / C++ for years before python and just couldnt get into them.. I think its the difference between compiled vs interpreter and being able to use the repl. There is definitely some crossover from python to JS with control flow and terms (I only learned some JS because of that bitburner game on steam - hella addictive)

isnt swift or typescript all the rage? 🙂

[true harness]

is that an actual question? swift is only used for iOS apps. typescript is just a nicer version of js, essentially

[solemn socket]

swift I wasnt serious (apple joke)

Im not a dev but many dev I know are getting into typescript for some reason so I thought maybe its worth checking out at some stage

[true harness]

have you made projects? are you able to make things without looking up the basics like how to use lists, functions, if statements, etc? it's kinda hard to gauge your skill own level, which is why most advice kinda centers around "when you're confident", but you do kinda just know when you're ready

[solemn socket]

I still have a lifetime of python to learn though, I admire ppl who can learn several languages to a decent proficiency

It takes me forever to really understand some coding concepts it makes me feel dumb sometimes

[smoky quest]

practice makes perfect!

[rain fable]

Hello. Should I do cs50 introduction to cs first or python for everybody? I'm trying to get at the very least internship spot from 0 to 100 by studying 8, 9 hours each day for 4 months. These are the first ones but idk which one to pick first.

[smoky quest]

I doubt any of them, or even both, would be sufficient for an internship.
In case, if you are in HS or college age, a CS degree is the simplest path with the most opportunities

[rain fable]

I said first ones I don't need no degree but thanks

[smoky quest]

then any would be a good start. Whichever vibes with you the most

[rain fable]

Okey thanks.

[smoky quest]

Just be aware that if you think you don't need a degree, you are gravely mistaken

[rain fable]

Is it okay also if I do both each day 50/50? 🤔

[smoky quest]

I would focus on one at a time for maximum efficiency

[rain fable]

Okay got it thanks that makes sense

[true harness]

they're both introductory courses, right? why would you do both, they're going to be teaching the same things

[rain fable]

Mmm there was some YouTube video

https://youtu.be/-VDXBHLU8q4 I'm trying to follow this. Both were supposed to be unique on their own where cs50 explains what CS is, talks about python, c, databases etc and python for everybody just diving into python specifically

These are just 2 first ones, there are more advanced ones that come after this that go more directly into backend dev. I don't expect to become some pro from this just enough for internship, free projects, portfolio building etc

[true harness]

that's fair enough. you could try doing both, see if it works for you.

i would also repeat recursive's point. getting a job without a degree is very difficult. videos like this can lead to survivorship bias. also, it seems this person already had job experience + a degree

[rain fable]

Okay thanks

I'll try do 10 hours then on work days then at least they'll be more quickly over to move to the difficult parts

[true harness]

10 hours sounds like a lot. are you currently a student or what? just curious

[rain fable]

He also did maybe 3-4 hours only on work days so I can hopefully make it less harder by doing 3x more. I will try find some contacts over LinkedIn and just message different hr's later for shadow work or just very basic bare minimum intern spot simple stuff

Nope living off my parents. I decided I hate IT so I'm trying to pull a career change

I'm in like a third world country. Cyber security and the IT positions I wanted don't exist here

[weary crag]

Hello, i got a question about my cv. Some context about me. I am a 19 year old high school student from germany preparing my cv to get a summer internship.
I got the following "problem". I founded a really small company where i developed a fullstack website and made it customer ready. I also went through the steps of founding a company, and creating the website in a way that customers will use it so i think its defentily worth more than just some normal project you do in your freetime. Though i didnt work on it full time which means putting it as real work experience on my cv would be overkill. Any advice on how i should include this in my cv is appreciated. Feel free to ask quesitons about it if you need more context

[gritty rivet]

These things vary between counties and I'm in the US... To me it's not a stretch to give yourself the title of founder and put it under Employment experience, but if you feel it more appropriate to put under Projects that's fine too

[spark cobalt]

Idk what the criteria is for a company to be officialized as one, but if it is, self employed would be pretty accurate I think.

[spark cobalt]

As someone that did self taught route and 0 college, 4 months is a scam. Imagine this was any other language like Chinese. And you were asked to speak Chinese to the point you can understand what you're reading, you can speak/write Chinese grammatically correct (syntax), and become fluent where you can "think" in Chinese (ways to express ideas in Chinese are different than English. And the same applies for any sort of development).

4 years make sense to get that point to be able to communicate with other developers and start coding at a more professional level.

Also most of these 6 month people got in through web development. But generally web development is attached to something much more than just a website. And then they code websites almost blind without knowing the underlying mechanics of what they're creating a UI for. Can't blame them, but that'd be the position you're in unless you commit the same amount of time and effort as a 4 year degree.

If you just seek money, web development is okay. But for me it's not fascinating. It's just making consumer digestible visual displays of the real magic you're not involved in.

Not trying to flame the graphic design people

[true harness]

I don't think the spoken language comparison works. those a much much much more complex than a programming language

[spark cobalt]

It doesn't change that there's a mindset behind speaking s different language just how there's a mindset behind programming. And that's not something you can become fluent in just 4 months.

[true harness]

sure, but it's different. programming can be a very natural way to think, whereas spoken languages are completely different

[spark cobalt]

Programming compared to another language is that programming doesn't express complexity of humanity, while language aims to achieve that. Programming is a language, with less vocabularies and grammar rules.

The use of them is different, but I think they're fundamentally the same.

[lapis wind]

Yeah I gotta agree with that. I think outside of basically learning react JS and doing a very simple entry level frontend job 4 months probably isn't enough

[spark cobalt]

It's not plausible whatsoever.

[lapis wind]

If it's your first time ever programming then it's not just 4 months learning a syntax, which you can do pretty quickly, it's largely trying to shape an entire way of thinking with concepts and core fundamentals in a incredibly short amount of time

[spark cobalt]

There's a lot of time wasted as a self taught developer to find a structured learning for yourself, figure out a system that works, etc. While in college you're told a correct process of doing things.

[true harness]

sure, 4 months is probably not reasonable, but programming is very logic heavy. it's totally reasonable that the guy in the video, who already has an economics degree, could do it in 4 months

[spark cobalt]

4 months is not enough time to get through a lot of hurdles.

[spark cobalt]

Half the economics majors I've met are irrational NFT people

Past the jokes, yeah a degree in STEM related helps a lot. I can understand 4 months after doing a math major and then doing something like DS

[lapis wind]

You can absolutely self teach but not in 4 months or at least not the extent I'd say of comfortably being employable

[spark cobalt]

Self taught is a risk in itself for any employer. You don't know their bottom limit while you do know a college grads bottom limit.

[lapis wind]

I think the first 4 months of me learning python I could barely open a file and do a basic card game 😅

[spark cobalt]

Hours I spent. I graduated high school 4 months ago. Junior year was COVID year so it was a year straight of day and night coding. Senior year school back again, committed full time programming despite having school and band (almost failed graduating high school. C- in English moment )

I had a solid D- in AP Compsci in senior year. Dropped out of stats (got a C there).

High School easy life jeez.

[lapis wind]

Pretty sound vibe lol

[spark cobalt]

I should send my CS teacher an email out of spite. That mf hated me ass cuz I slept in his class everyday. And when he found out that I was at school for a month straight but just been ditching his class I got in mad trouble

[lapis wind]

Obligation to say to any young folks trying to replicate this instead of getting a degree, please be aware that this doesn't work for everyone and it depends heavily on your country, job markets and connections.

[spark cobalt]

He was a good teacher I was just bored and cba. So I feel bad if I ever chose to do it

Yeah take it from me college is 100% a better choice. 0 social life, everyone around me is 10+ years older than me, 0 bitches, 🥴

[lapis wind]

Very relatable about the age difference

[spark cobalt]

Second youngest person in my company is like 30 or some shit while I'm 18

I had a party with some of the connections I made after I moved to San Jose and all the mfs had kids

I should make a blog post about this

[lapis wind]

Trouble is it differ so incredibly much between regions that it is essentially a toss if the dice for most

[spark cobalt]

Even in the most optimal situation, everything was still down to a serious amount of luck.

And I landed a company that I can see myself working for a long time. Not some shitty startup. Really really fucking blessed.

[lapis wind]

I quite enjoy the startup lifestyle tbf, But it's definitely not for everyone

[spark cobalt]

Yeah I'm at startup as well. But it's wealthy, it's a good work environment, it's completely flat hierarchy, etc.

Winning the VC games. Startup for me is meta as well. Simply cuz bigger companies would force me to dig deep in a certain speciality from day one.

I'd hate to be forced to dive down in a field where I haven't touched a lot of technologies or explored at all in the industry

I just hear that people at other startups are not having a good time....

[acoustic wolf]

Would I be able to post a resume here for review? I'm not ready to post it now, but was wondering if that sort of thing is allowed

[gritty rivet]

Yes, feel free to remove your personal details

[acoustic wolf]

Thank you

[wide stag]

I'm at a startup as well and have been in one for a while. Aside from the loads of work, its been an awesome experience.

[jaunty cradle]

how do I let guests view my private github repo? With a link ideally

[smoky quest]

Hi! Welcome!
This has nothing to do with #career-advice . You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help to find the most appropriate channel for your question

[jaunty cradle]

where would you put it?

[smoky quest]

I would probably open up a help channel or #tools-and-devops

[delicate python]

Hello. Has anyone completed the udacity design of computer programs on udacity? If so did it help you in CP and programming OAs?

[keen halo]

Hello mate

[spark cobalt]

Hey

[karmic sail]

Hey everyone
Been learning python for a few months now (self taught + bootcamp) and also out of curiosity been looking at available positions for junior devs, I see a lot of them are front end JS related jobs
Would you say its true that for a self taught/bootcamp person looking to get employed its more reliable to pivot into JS frontend rather than hacking away deeper into Python ?

[vernal shore]

what are the best languages for jobs? (40k-80k)

[vernal shore]

Id say do both

[near ocean]

Its not the language that pays, its the company, the region, the country, the industry, etc

[vernal shore]

UK bots/game dev

honestly i might learn css cause web design gives insane pay

[spark cobalt]

Frontend is easier to get in simply because of how easy it is to show your skills and how less involved (generally) it is in terms of knowledge in math and other stuff.

Super hard to display mathematical skills if you pursue in the depths of DS/ML/etc. without some supporting degree.

[near ocean]

Game dev is notorious for shit pay
The UK is also notorious for shit tech job pay
Very bad combo you picked there m8

[karmic sail]

So orient towards full stack ?

[spark cobalt]

I got in self taught no college degree without having to go the front end route. But it's significantly harder to prove your worth.

[near ocean]

Are there even game studios in the UK? I think its just small indie game studios

[karmic sail]

I dont have any serious math strengths or a STEM degree, so Ive been leaning towards maybe going the Django route

[near ocean]

Can you get a degree?

[karmic sail]

Not possible Im afraid

[spark cobalt]

If you want to go a "route", I'd recommend you use Django as a way to learn about REST APIs, and then attach it to ReactJS which is used significantly more on the front end.

So utilize Django's REST framework that connects to a React front-end (or other popular front-end frameworks.)

[karmic sail]

I see, so that would be considered full stack ?

[near ocean]

There is a pin in this channel from someone who got a job as backend(?) with django as selftaught, check it out

[spark cobalt]

You'll be using a lot of REST APIs (presumably) as a front end engineer.

Yes, that would be full stack.

Django removes a lot of the complexity of backend. So if you're aiming to be a front end developer and need some easy backend configuration, Django is a pretty decent choice.

[vernal shore]

r* (ew), proj red, uhhh ubusoft and respawn too i think

[spark cobalt]

4 companies for all the aspiring game devs in UK to compete for.

[vernal shore]

All terrible companies

[spark cobalt]

Fair enough

[near ocean]

Yea i would not suggest going into game dev

[spark cobalt]

Doesn't seem to be there.

[near ocean]

Theres also actiblizzard by they keep axing employees in their IRE offices lmao

[vernal shore]

r* underpays, red is Polish (ew), ubi is.. ubi, respawn has shit oay and sa scandals

[near ocean]

#career-advice message
This is the one

[spark cobalt]

@karmic sail Some resources on Django can be found here: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/2/folders/1D8IxfhW3fCv2Lawt3_UqiUY97zB859a3

If there's other books on the Internet that interests you (maybe there's a book specifically just talking about Django REST framework) and you would like me to add that PDF in, lmk. Have PDFs for everything :3

[karmic sail]

Thank you! @near ocean @spark cobalt

[vernal shore]

django?

[near ocean]

One more thing, if you have the time and money consider a bootcamp
But make sure you do thorough research on it and to pick one thats reliable and that has gotten people hired after completion

[spark cobalt]

A web framework. Isn't in the pins though.

Uhh personally as someone who did the self taught route, if you're doing front end development, bootcamps would be a waste of your time. Just study a good, complete, thorough book and make some amazing websites and you're good to go.

[near ocean]

Its in the pins, i linked it here

[spark cobalt]

Front end is easiest to break in as self taught.

Maybe I can make a blog post and get mad karma

[near ocean]

You probably should just like our guy JoshVo here did

[spark cobalt]

I think I'd probably just give perspective to the work behind landing that first job so it's applicable to a broader range of people. A lot of the posts that I see from people who did self taught is they tell us what they did, but a lot of the hidden hours, struggles, are hidden away which give the illusion that self taught is some magical thing.

Already enough posts on good resources, adding redundancy and feeding the circlejerk of supposed good resources that's seen often in Reddit communities is something I'd rather avoid.

[lapis wind]

UK game dev is an actual meme

[near ocean]

one of my past flatmates went into game dev
I should check up on him, make sure he's alright

[safe loom]

Never have I been so uncomfortable for an interview. To summarize, I've passed the first step but I'm asked to work on questions business-centered. And for some reason my brain just won't. Because deep down I don't care and I refuse to care, even if I put all my energy into it.

I'm supposed to bring a work tech solution yet don't want to bother going into details because let's be honest? Customer communication isn't my forte.

[near ocean]

Sources suggest he started at 25k GBP two years ago at a graphics company

Which i guess isnt that bad, i also started at 25k

[spark cobalt]

Let's be honest, all development under the sun is to meet some customer's need. How are you going to tell what the customer wants without communicating to them?

[safe loom]

True but there's some experience I can't exactly detail because I joined in mid-late development before being laid off due to recruitment policies. Meaning all I did was contributing to some features without having the broader scope in mind

Same as the actions from the team. I worked in the background without understanding much what was going on.

[spark cobalt]

Unfortunately, companies are more efficient (globally, development or not), when their employees are able to be efficient at one thing (division of labor.) Getting broader scope is probably something you have to sought after yourself.

For example, right now I'm learning Go to get a better sense of the entirety of the project I'm currently working on. I'll probably do 0 coding in Go, but I'd at least understand how everything fits together.

I think a lot of front end developers end up fitting to that description you say. Simply because they generally don't have the knowledge to be able to understand a lot of the behind the scenes in the first place. (They can definitely attain it, but not in a reasonable amount of time since everyone has a life)

But dunno, that was my experience. May be different for different companies.

[safe loom]

I worked as a SE/backend dev for a software company in the energy sector. So I didn't quite get everything going on behind the scenes.

[near ocean]

How big was this company? You cant reasonably expect devs to grasp the entire picture when your company has scaled passed the startup phase
I work in a 7k employee software company, there are like 10 other teams with 10 devs each working on the product
If my manager asked me tomorrow to get a complete understanding of the product i'd call him mad

[spark cobalt]

Yeah bigger the company, more division of labor.

[safe loom]

200+ employees and growing. Besides, my stay there was only 3 months because of the recruitment policies.

[near ocean]

If you want or need a more complete understanding of the product youre working on maybe try applying to startups
There you'll have no choice but to know more things outside the scope of your role

[spark cobalt]

Startups are fun

[near ocean]

But startups come with other issues that bigger companies dont have, like fewer benefits, more expected work hours, lower pay, etc

[rain fable]

Awesome. I did coding initially as well but for cyber security changed to IT field. Not stepping 1 foot back at school again lol. I will try DevOps over time maybe or secdevops, cloudsecdevops in 10+ years : 😹Maybe the easiest to get a job with is frontend dev but I prefer backend

[spark cobalt]

Just get into rich startup

[safe loom]

Narrating my experience with the startup I worked with was easier

[spark cobalt]

Yeah same.

[safe loom]

Not only I was in for longer, but at the beginning we simply had no product at all and almost no business to deal with. Meanwhile the other company had a project whose irons have been in the fire for 2 years. Aside from saying "yeah I worked on patches and features lol" Idk how to explain this.

[near ocean]

Is there such a thing outside silicon valley

[spark cobalt]

Fair enough

Startup I work for winning VC rounds like crazy. Only thing is people are expected to work more.

Like one of my friends at Apple was like "bruh we only get a 12$ allowance for food" and we get 25. . A lot of money, few people to spread it around.

But yeah super competitive pay environment so everyone a workaholic.

[rain fable]

Damn seems like things worked out for u very well I'll try to work even harder now haha

[spark cobalt]

No. Things like this is pure luck.

Well, work harder yes. But it won't help hitting the lottery.

[near ocean]

I didnt mind the long hours until i moved in with my gf, after that i left right when contract stated lmao, im not staying later, f that

[spark cobalt]

I go on-site everyday when most people come 2-3 days a week 9-6/7 and then do more work at home (but typically it's just reading and studying, not coding when I'm at home)

[near ocean]

How much do you get paid tho

[spark cobalt]

No social life, no bitches, no one to talk to, nothing better to do than work.

[near ocean]

I had 12h days in London with 1h commutes each way for £25k for a 9 year old fintech startup, if that was 125k i wouldnt mind sleeping under my desk even

[spark cobalt]

Right so as you know I graduated high school 4 months ago. Originally I applied for BA role but they let me in on the condition I start off as an intern and then move forward to full time.

So right now I make higher 5 figures, full time has baseline 6 figures. (Won't give exact number since people can easily track down what company I work for)

[karmic sail]

25k gbp in London for that

[spark cobalt]

I hope I'm exceeding expectations, at least I'm starting to be able to be significantly more independent after just a couple of weeks on the job despite never working in this field before

So I think I should be able to get the full time job. (There's also the argument of I'm considered an investment since they're spending 6 months of time on me, so kicking me out would be bad for them unless I was insufferably bad)

[rain fable]

😮 awesome

[near ocean]

Which country is this in

[spark cobalt]

Oh I'm in San Jose

Good work environment. I was initially thinking I'd have to hop to different companies but the opportunities here and the work environment here is fucking sick so planning on staying a couple of years.

[near ocean]

Oh, ok, figures make more sense then

[spark cobalt]

Yeah, I'm like at the heart of silicon valley basically.

[near ocean]

I was thinking London and was about to lose my shit

[spark cobalt]

Same experience yesterday. People were saying how they got 10 job offers and they're still undecided and I was like what the fuck . Turns out they were in 3rd world country (they didn't specify) and it was like ahh

[safe loom]

Bet the requirements aren't as hard

[spark cobalt]

Yeah

Apparently always demand but not enough money to meet the demand

[safe loom]

By that I mean, 1st world countries go through a ton of security checks, from knowing company projects to be assured of your technique, etc...

The company I'm applying in is VERY notorious energy-wise and I'm stressed out, since I can't take a reassuring position, nor bluffing because I'm too inexperienced.

[near ocean]

Is it BP? Lmaoooo

[safe loom]

Not BP but they do provide gas and electricity through Europe and several other countries :p

[spark cobalt]

Yeah I was looking over how long the interview process was for my company. It was a whole month (in my case 5 weeks)

Long process, I was about to work at Cheesecake Factory

[rain fable]

Awesome so much inspiration in the chat

[spark cobalt]

You got this!

Something that helped me a lot was solidifying a plan, with the logistics (financial, time, timing of when I'm cutting in the market, etc.), how I am going to prove my worth to a hiring manager, etc. And then get it reviewed by people that's been in this industry for decades.

I think a lot in the self taught route (after talking to a few people attempting to do the same) thinks something's going to be handed to them, but it really has to be reached for. Make sure you know what you're doing and that you're driving yourself to a precise, and defined goal.

I didn't get my job through connections, but the connections I made after moving to San Jose were huge. They were able to get my resume read by a human instead of being thrown in the garbage by some computer.

Especially in self taught route, don't overlook connections. It's easy to think you can just apply and get the job, but you need to really just apply every tool you possibly can (also networking will help long term anyways.)

[rain fable]

Yeah I know exactly where to go and I got good soft skills, leadership and interview skills so I'll apply those and I got like 3 books picked out that focus on backend, CS interviews in general and I've built LinkedIn connections over time too yes

[spark cobalt]

Oh I was meaning in person connections. Meeting up with people in conferences, meetups,e tc.

[rain fable]

Right now I lack technical skills because I've barely just started but then I think. Good to go I chat with a lot of managers, CEOs, cisos and hrs casually too maybe that will help me when I got the skill and it's time to apply

[spark cobalt]

https://tenor.com/view/yuge-huge-donald-trump-gif-7357158

[spark cobalt]

Thanks for not being like the 99% of other naive people out there.

A little concerning when the only credit they can come up with for their plan is "this obvious clickbait video told me so"

[rain fable]

Took me 7 years to figure out what I want to do definitely not going to waste the opportunity

[spark cobalt]

Good luck man 🥳

Stay blessed

@weary crag 🤨

[safe loom]

This is why I prefer face to face meetings

[spark cobalt]

Yep. My interview with the company I'm at was originally on Zoom. Asked to do it in person and they let me do it. Was able to score really highly because of it I think.

Really super hard to express ideas and display certain things through remote. Was a simple but super effective way to get ahead of competitors. And I think the same idea applies to connections as well. In person significantly more impactful

[weary crag]

huh?🤓

Quick question. Do you think its worth putting your sport on your resume if you do it competitively? Shows that you are capable of dealing with stress and to perfom under pressure, so i thought it might be a good idea. Or should i leave that out cause it has nothing directly to do with software engineering and so on

[near ocean]

I dont think its a good idea, do you have nothing else thats more relevant?

[spark cobalt]

If you need filler, sure. Otherwise wouldn't sacrifice technology related projects/internships/education over it.

[weary crag]

okay makes sense

[gritty rivet]

Some people advocate for this sort of thing as a way to stand out from the boring crowd and show your personality. It's not inappropriate to include hobbies or non-professional achievements near the bottom if you feel it adds value

[near ocean]

I think they take away from the cv unless you're doing sports at a high level
If youre a national/state champion in whatever you play then sure, small section at the bottom is fine
But if youre playing sunday league with a bunch of dads then no

[true harness]

^. it's really just not relevant. a club that does CS things would be better

[near ocean]

For a starting role it might help convince people youre a well rounded adult and not just some computer nerd that cant get along with coworkers, soft skills are important

It doesnt matter if youre a world renowned expert if people dread talking to you

[brazen epoch]

Hey guys, i just learned python, can i make some pocket money from it?

[near ocean]

Unlikely, how do you think that would work? Part time? Freelance?

[safe loom]

Btw, when it comes to explain what we've done on the business on a short term during an interview, can we talk about scope? Mine for example was very short-term focused (getting the features ready for the next sprint)

[weary crag]

yea of course just your hobby sport doesnt help. What i meant is if you do competitive sports on a national and international level

[azure mauve]

Hey does anyone know what kind of companies use python especially game development companies

[white relic]

hobbies might help. It all depends on who's reading the resume

[near ocean]

Probably most of them, but not as the main dev language and more for automating processes and glueing thins together

[azure mauve]

Ok thanks

So basically 6 more years and I will be out of school for good

[near ocean]

Why game dev?

[azure mauve]

I find it quite fun and I’ve already made a few games already

I want to be an enterpneur and have my own indie game company

Is 4 years of cool leg enough for computer science

[near ocean]

Thats how they get you
The game dev industry is not the most fun to work in, they take advantage of peoples' dreams to low ball them, enforce long hours, bad benefits, crunches, etc

Also youre probably better off learning c# and c++ for game dev

[inner wren]

Hey @acoustic wolf!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[near ocean]

Take a screenshot of the pdf and post

[acoustic wolf]

Thanks. Here is my resume that I've been using the past few days to apply for jobs. I was hoping to get feedback on it

I've never had a programming job and would like to get one, the only "professional" experience I have is selling DNA analysis to my local college

[near ocean]

Not to be disheartening but i would completely change the layout of the CV

Make the contact info shorter, cut out physical address
Cut down profile paragraph
Cut down some of the skills and group them to be shorter vertically
Experience highlights and employement should be merged

I'd also move skills to the bottom unless the section is thin enough to be above experience

[true harness]

you've got a lot of experience, but literally nothing that describes what you did there. maybe cut it down to 2 most recent ones and actually explain what you did.

your skills section is kind of all over the place.

• no one really cares if you can type 110WPM
• what is "Record Keeping" or "Organizing Hardware"?
• "database use" is too vague: what database? did you use SQL?
• Data Entry is kind of irrelevant for programming.
  i would split it into sections: programming languages (or just languages), technologies (where you would put django, etc), and maybe misc for everything else.

"Experience Highlights" is too unfocused, each bullet is kinda in a random direction on its own. do you have personal projects? where did you do these experiences? there's no context for these.

a lot of empty space at the top, maybe flatten your contact info and you'd get some more space if you need

overall, use a single column for each section, it will make it easier for ATS to parse.

[acoustic wolf]

Got it, thanks both of you for your advice. But when you say to keep things in a single column, what do you mean? Instead of having Workplace/Position/Location/Time you mean to keep it all on one line?

[true harness]

instead of

Skills
- A    - B     - C
- D    - E
``` do

A, B, C
D, E

or

• A
• B
• C

[acoustic wolf]

kk thanks

[safe loom]

That's why I'm not getting in gamedev. You're better off as an indie dev at your own pace and no deadlines.

Industry sounds like a fair trade however.

[weary crag]

Hey, i would appreciate to get some feedback on my cv as well. I've put quite a few projects on it and would only put the most relevant ones in when applying to a certain job. Also i am not sure if i should incluce the last two points in the expierience section since they have nothing to do with programming. Maybe i could change some formatting as well in order to get more on one page?

[peak halo]

Hello @weary crag, I'm a bit confused by the Education part. what degree did you get?

[acoustic wolf]

Thanks for posting, I will learn from your CV lol

[weary crag]

yea i see. my plan is to do one year off between highschool (Abitur in germany) and starting my bachelors.

and i had the hope that it might be possible to get a little internship during that one year off

though i know that it will be unlikeley because all companies want you to be enrolled in a university programme :/

[peak halo]

oh, Abitur is german for high school diploma

[weary crag]

yea its the qualification you need in order to start your bachelors

[peak halo]

"Trainer climbing competition team Wetzlar" is awkward to read. Either it should be made a complete phrase ("Trainer for a climbing competition for team Wetzlar") or the job title and "company" should be separated by a comma ("Climbing competition trainer, Team Wetzlar")

[weary crag]

oh yea that makes sense. Should i keep it in though?

[peak halo]

Looks like you've worked at that gym since March. I would just say that you work there, and not get more specific than that, just to show that you're working. Otherwise it's a waste of space.

[true harness]

to be consistent with the other dates, maybe change Since x to x -- Present.
i'd also just put 1 sentence for each of the other experience.

SKILLS is all caps, none of your other headers are

[weary crag]

so i could do:
Climbing competition trainer and counter employee, Cube climbing center Wetzlar since March 2022

[weary crag]

yea i will change that.
regarding the second point. i translated my german cv to english and forgot to make all headers caps in the english version 😄

[true harness]

the way i've seen most resumes list job title and company is in two lines:

Company Name
Job Title

[white relic]

If you had multiple roles at the same company you can only list the most recent / most relevant one

[weary crag]

hm. its not a fulltime job though. We call it "minijob" in germany and i am doing both at the same time

[white relic]

your job role at the gym is irrelevant to what you're hoping to get hired for so don't waste words on it

you might just put "Trainer"

Unless you really want to emphasize something in particular

[weary crag]

or should i rather take the counter employee since that one shows i worked in a normal working environment?

[white relic]

I doubt it would matter either way

[weary crag]

okay thanks for your help👍

but in general the format looks fine?

[white relic]

I think so yeah

I'd not include frustration tolerance and stress management under skills

[azure delta]

hello

[white relic]

If you have dealt with a high stress environment, try to work that in to your experience section

[azure delta]

I need help I created an azure VM and I am not able access its server which i hosted using go

[near ocean]

Not the right channel, #tools-and-devops

[safe loom]

Any tips for feeling less tense during business-related interviews? i always feel like big shots are going to rip me off regardless of intent

It's stressing me out and I can no longer properly articulate or show confidence.

[summer geyser]

I did my final interview last Wednesday, would it be okay to send a follow up email to the recruiter to thank them and just say I look forward to hearing back or something?

[near ocean]

Yes, its been almost a week, its fine to follow up

[white relic]

Practice will help more than anything else. Do more interviews. Interview for some jobs you don't care about as much so you aren't so worried about missing the opportunity. Interviewing is a skill and you will get better and more confident with practice.

[summer geyser]

okay sweet. Do you think it is better to ask if there are any updates on the job or just say that I look forward to hearing back? Don't wanna seem too pushy

but ik it also likely doesn't affect anything so 🤣

[near ocean]

Either way is fine, i would go with thanking them for the interview and "looking forward to hearing back"

[delicate bane]

question. has anybody ever had to research various tooling/software solutions for their company and then make a recommendation/navigate the vendor process?

i feel like im way too junior for this but im most likely going to have to do it to replace one of our legacy things

if anyone has any advice for this type of scenario, that would be very much appreciated

[safe loom]

I'm doing fine with technical, but business is always a issue with me. They're asking me the details that only a n+2 manager thought out and I can barely even respond

[near ocean]

I was gonna share but bossman trashed most of them lmao

[delicate bane]

they asked me also if i could build an in-house solution if given a few months. and i was basically like uhh yeah but not if im the only one building it + have other responsibilities

so i was like...i think its best if i dont over promise and just go for the buy approach instead

even though i wouldve liked to build it. just dont think the company would wait for me to try out various ML models for our use case and then train/fine-tune the best one, then optimize it for inference/deployment

especially if im the only one working on this. smh

oh yeah then i would have to deploy it myself which is fine but still

[near ocean]

Mine were smaller things, like automating some VBA signing things, whether we want to tackle date parsing in excel/python or push back for better data, etc

[delicate bane]

gotcha. how about if someone asked you to do vendor stuff now? how would you approach things?

[near ocean]

I'd probably be here asking as well lol, what kind of problem are you solving

[delicate bane]

[near ocean]

If its just picking between ready made solution and custom it'd be powerpoint time

And make sure prices are up there

As for my suggestions, they were all turned down because they didnt see a problem with paying for something established

[white relic]

My answer is still the same. Every prospective employer is different. I didn't really have too many "business" interviews and the ones I did have didn't hire me. Keep at it and you'll find a company that puts less emphasis on your weak areas and finds more value in your strengths. It's about finding a match more than being the perfect all-around candidate

And if you really do need to improve in that area, doing multiple interviews will show you what you need to learn.

[delicate bane]

i think our use case is kinda specific so there would be some customizing regardless of vendor solutions, just a spectrum of how much.

and yeah prices definitely will go up there, but i should probably include something like dev time or something idk

[safe loom]

Yeah, although that one was recommended to me by my IT consulting firm

[gentle kite]

i'm trying to figure out if this is a real company: https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Kani-Solutions

its odd that there's a phone number listed and i've seen other websites with a similar template

a lot of the reviews are in broken english and don't list any criticisms, and one of the jobs on their careers page is a copy and paste of the google job description...

actually i think i just answered my own question why am i even asking

[spark cobalt]

My company's a startup (growth phase tho), so I record everything that's some kind of technological hiccup or something that can help a future person starting in my position.

[buoyant seal]

Basically Software Architect duties
I aim to become one

[spark cobalt]

Never been asked to do it but like there's no reason for everyone to suffer the same thing when onboarding etc. Waste of time, money and just inefficient.

[near ocean]

I wouldnt say its software architecture duties to research the viability of something devs will handle
We get analysis tickets constantly at work, devs work on the product, devs know best how long X will take or if its worth it

Otherwise i've been a software architect for a while now

[delicate bane]

so what youre telling me is i shouldnt be doing this but here we are. its an AI solution btw

[buoyant seal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=FQRW0RM4V0k Dew it.
It is healthy environment to question architecture / technology choices
There is supposed to be some justification why the choice was made and what prevents from changing it (Money costs, maintanance costs or something)

Technology choice could have been optimal in the past, but situation could have changed to now
If switching to new tech has better advantages than cost of refactoring, that it is worthy to change. If money costs are too great ones to change than promised advantages though, then u a stuck xD

it would be nice if u have read System Design literature though to make more conscious choices in this regard

[tulip lantern]

omg amogus?

[smoky quest]

What do you have so far?
But in general, it's like every other project: start from the requirements, list the possible solutions and go through them and see how they match the requirements

One thing to be careful about is to have a global view rather than just the specific technical aspects

[smoky quest]

It's a build vs buy problem.
Is it core to your company's business? Does buying a solution helps you focus on the core parts of your company's business?
If you build it, do you get the resources to actually do it? And if so, what about the maintenance?

[delicate bane]

yeah i believe in this case the buy option outweighs the build option. especially considering its not core to the company's business + maintenance costs. as well as a dearth of dev resources.

i mean, cmon theyre having me build it if possible.

(not even a real dev lol)

[delicate bane]

recursive, do you think you can elaborate on the non-technical requirements please? like cost, customer support from the vendor, etc.?

[buoyant seal]

i haven't read yet, but there is whole book dedicated for requirements: Software Requirements by microsoft
it will be nice to read, eventually

[delicate bane]

bruh i need like the tldr tbh

or if theres an audiobook or podcasts, id check it out. im more of an audio learner

[buoyant seal]

read just (second? There is one chapter abour requirements) chapter of System Design by Dennic then. It is tldr

[safe loom]

That might be useful if I'm taken in the company I'm going to have an interview for tomorrow

I checked their website and they're partnered with Microsoft and Azure services.

[buoyant seal]

It is a book useful to be read by any developer from middle rank... according to must have to be read book Code Complete by McConnel

[vapid jay]

Would a person with tech internships, business degree and certs be able to compete in tech jobs?

[gilded valley]

Tech internships usually convert to job offers

[vapid jay]

I’m just worried because im not a cs major

[gilded valley]

If you get the internship and perform ok, then you usually get an offer

[young flicker]

Hello everybody! I'm new to the server (joined a while back but just started using it).

I'm going to start by saying that this is a fairly open ended inquiry so I was more so looking to start a discussion and not get a specific answer, but recently, I relocated to Philadelphia due a family member requiring treatment in the area. I've been a developer for about 5 years and have mostly worked in Java, C++, and C. I have had a few projects at work that have allowed me to use Python, and I work on some personal projects involving python as well. After relocating, I found out the my remote position would be ending. As a result of the remote work and relocating without a position, I have a pretty limited network in the area.

In addition, I'm looking to reorient my skillset to a data driven focus and have accordingly modified my study areas. I also decided to attend the PyData conference in NYC to sort of try and start to establish a more local network.

All this being said, I would appreciate any advice in supporting a sort of mid-career transition and any tips anyone has for establishing a professional network in a city where they didn't start with a job (most of my moves have been for a job so establishing a network was less of an issue).

Maybe it was a little too open ended. lol

[buoyant seal]

could u clarify for which job roles u aim in python?

[young flicker]

I was thinking more of backend services for data intensive applications

[buoyant seal]

u a looking then for stuff in a range between Backend developer and Data engineer in terms of job roles, and some DevOps tools in addition

Some stuff is mentioned in Backend map
Some in Software ARchitect
Some in DevOps here
https://roadmap.sh/

Essentially all technologies and patterns are here recounted i think
https://github.com/donnemartin/system-design-primer
Besides backend python frameworks
SQL databases, no SQL database redis/Apache Cassandra/MongoDB.
Message queues with Redis/RabbitMQ/Apache Kafka/SQS
Search engine like ElasticSearch
Other stuff in repo is mentioned
Highly likely going to encounter demand to know AWS, lambdas/step functions (or its alternative like Apache Airflow)
Highly likely can be expecting wish to know k8s

[gritty rivet]

For better or worse, LinkedIn is pretty important for networking in the age of remote work. You can easily search for people working with Python in your city

[smoky quest]

Sure. Think in terms of training, roll out, availability of answers to popular questions (ex: easier to find answers for tensorflow/pytorch than a proprietary api), compatibility, upgrades, observability, reliability, legal (gdpr?), etc.

So not just answering "does it work?" but "How is this going to look at the company?"

[young flicker]

I really appreciate the response. I've kind of tried to pick a tech stack and study. I've recently started studying O'Reilly's Designing Data-Intensive Application and Python for Data Analysis for text resources. But there is a disorienting amount of technologies aimed at accomplishing some of the backend and cloud based items. But the O'Reilly text I've found very useful in summarizing when and why you might use a particular tech.

[young flicker]

I've had varying degrees of success using LinkedIn. I've actually landed jobs previously utilizing LinkedIn, but this time around, I feel like I just get spammed by tons of recruiters in my inbox. Some won't even respond after they have initiated a convo. And some who have setup interviews and then just didn't show, which has blown my mind.

[delicate bane]

i see, i see. much more holistic view. many thanks recursive

[buoyant seal]

i can suggest path

take care of backend framework first then -> Nginx -> SQL databases like Postgresql (most popular scalable option for data intensive i think) -> then Redis -> Then RabbitMQ -> then ElasticSearch? -> Then MongoDB / Apache Kafka / Apache Airflow -> Apache Cassandra for dessert

And parallel road for infra tools
Docker -> Docker-compose -> Ansible -> Terraform -> K8s -> AWS -> Celery/SQS -> Serverless Lambdas/Step functions/AWS Glue

[young flicker]

I guess that I've just gotten a little frustrated with what feels like a lot of noise on LinkedIn. I'm able to get solicited for things I'm not interested in but when trying to target certain positions on LinkedIn, not seeming to make any headway.

[young flicker]

Very much appreciate the advice

[smoky quest]

The main advice here for you would be to be curious!
Don't assume you have to be the know-it-all and that you have to poop out a plan from nothing. Instead, start something and go ask the various people involved (R/DACI may help there) for feedback, their concerns and if you are missing anything. They will also feel more heard and less fearful since they got an opportunity to share their thoughts

[pallid drift]

can anyone help me to creak placement coding round please

[delicate bane]

ok yeah youre right. one step at a time even though this whole thing makes me nervous

[near ocean]

No and stop crossposting

[smoky quest]

It's actually great that it makes you nervous. That's a sign that it's stretching you and helping you grow. If it was boring, then it would be too easy

[delicate bane]

youre right. would rather have it this way. i would hate it if that was the case.

[spark cobalt]

Worth noting that LinkedIn is arguably one of the most, if not the most, competitive platform for getting a job. Since quite literally everyone in the job market is on there.

[summer geyser]

Would a dev supervisor or a director of devs be the hiring manager? I feel like the director but thought I’d check lol

[spark cobalt]

Interviewers are not always hiring managers.

[smoky quest]

the hiring manager is the person to whom you would report

[summer geyser]

In that case, it sounds more like the supervisor

[smoky quest]

It's like a tree. The manager manages a team, a set of engineers. The director manages multiple managers.
A director would hire the managers but would trust the managers reporting to them for hiring in their team

[mortal wedge]

Dear marketing, please stop overpromising things on the behalf of the engineering team >.>

[summer geyser]

Gotcha. I had one with the supervisor and then the final with the director. It went bette r with the supervisor IMO so I was hoping he was if anyone is 😂

[mortal wedge]

It feels like I'm in this position every other month where I have to play the bad guy and walk back promises that either other team members or people from other departments are making

[smoky quest]

Yeah, it doesn't mean the director won't interview candidates. It's common to do some culture checks

[summer geyser]

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying that! And I was told that’s what it would be, behavioral. But the director gave me leetcode also so 😂

[foggy wedge]

what jobs can i get with python

[mortal wedge]

Any tips on making marketing adhere to science and engineering?

[analog sun]

"You cannot lie to people"

[mortal wedge]

Haha, nice. The problem is like... the head engineer? No longer invited to these meetings because he comes out swinging and claims most of the things the business are trying to do is bullshit, haha. So I'm trying to strike a balance of being truthful and wanting us to be science based compared to no longer being invited.

[mortal wedge]

All kinds! Python is a general purpose programming language with a vast ecosystem, with the weakness of it being a bit slower and eating up more memory than other programming languages. In any situation where speed and memory are not the bottlenecks, Python can excel. (For most programming projects, the bottleneck is development time, which Python excels at.) For some additional context, I work in neuroscience r&d and use Python almost exclusively. So really the sky's the limit.

[analog sun]

Hmm. Engineering can provide benchmarks and performance metrics, but let marketing tell the consumer why it matters? I'm not on the customer side of my industry so I don't have much experience to give there

[mortal wedge]

I wish I could just say like... that's their problem and their responsibility, I'm just responsible for the science. But I'm worried I'm going to get a email/meeting where they say "Here's your new project, determine X" where X is just practically and theoretically impossible, lol.

I'm still new at interfacing with non-engineering/science departments.

I suppose that's what I get for trying to expand my responsibilities/role, haha

[analog sun]

I feel like the direction should come from R&D or something, and then marketing should focus on existing projects

[mortal wedge]

Thankfully the company president stepped in at last meeting with a story about... Fisker? Where marketing created the vehicle/car design then expected Engineering to reverse engineer it. The car looked gorgeous, but the project had to be scrapped after their barely working prototype kept bricking, lol. So his moral of the story was that it should go from engineering to marketing and not the other way around.

But he was able to convey that message with a vast degree more finesse than I would have been able to.

[analog sun]

That comes with practice and coaching. Being able to deliver a message with a story is a good one to learn, since people remember stories easily

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, I'm leaning on my current manager to coach me on that. I think the story is a great idea, because it's less like... we're not in opposition, but I noticed this thing this other time that we should be aware of.

[slow crescent]

that is the power of peer programming.

[still condor]

hello @nova creek, please move shitposting to the shitposting discord

[spark cobalt]

Director of Engineering's no is most definitely more powerful than HR's yes.

It's all one interview, split into different sessions.

[spark cobalt]

Ah I had it backwards. I was told it was going to be technical but the interview started with "oh your past interviews all had good reviews" then we talked about philosophy

[summer geyser]

That sounds much better haha

[true harness]

I got an email yesterday at 11 PM telling me to sign up for an interview, but the only times were tomorrow morning 🤔🤔. surely this is not normal right

[mortal wedge]

Yeah that’s kinda weird. Like what if you had a full time job?

[iron grove]

HI,
how are you?
I am a game developer who loves game development. I worked with unity since it was released first. I developed various game for several company,. if you need my help, d m me.

[peak halo]

you could help people in #game-development, but they'll be asking for help with pygame and arcade, since this server is for Python

[grizzled jetty]

Is their a roadmap for data engineers?

[gritty rivet]

Loads of them come up on Google but none stand out to me. But there's a dedicated Discord server for Data Engineering, check Disboard for the link

[cobalt carbon]

does someone know how i could code a python script that will check the gmod console for a certain players name and use a prefix and a sentence to votekick them, "!votekick player123"

[spark cobalt]

Wrong channel for this.

[cobalt carbon]

which ones the right one?

[spark cobalt]

Can either open your own help channel in #❓｜how-to-get-help or try sending in #python-discussion

[grizzled jetty]

Can dm me the link if you can? @gritty rivet

[gritty rivet]

Which link? Google.com?

[grizzled jetty]

Oh lmao

[grizzled jetty]

I was asking for the link to that discord

[gritty rivet]

Oh I see, guess it's not actually on Disboard... I don't think I'm allowed to link directly but there's a link here, below the links to the wiki: https://www.reddit.com/r/dataengineering

[grizzled jetty]

thanks

[woeful spruce]

Data Engineer is so new that I don't know if there is a clear roadmap. From my experience, knowing SQL and python is a good start. The rest can be learned through a bit of research and guidance. Start with the fundamentals though: python and SQL. You can deal with cloud platforms and ETL platforms later on.

[delicate bane]

good luck. data engineering is a hot field atm

[mortal wedge]

Be comfortable with cloud computing, pandas, and numpy

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
However, this server has a policy where ads aren't allowed

[mortal wedge]

Hello, this isn't the right place to share or ask for job openings. This channel is for discussing career related stuff. We don't actually allow recruitment on this server.

[spark cobalt]

This channel for careers. Ask in a help channel or #python-discussion

[vital iris]

ok

[pseudo pecan]

Fine, I just remove it 👍

[dreamy shadow]

How should I tackle: "What are some areas of training that you would like to see offered to help promote your personal development?" question.

I'm technically in a Data Analyst role, so what are some things I should include to break fully into DS?

[mortal wedge]

The first thing that comes to mind is Machine Learning/ machine learning workshops. Working with cloud computing is another big one. SQL is another topic that comes to mind.

[dreamy shadow]

Cloud computing might be a good one. I have already done courses & developed ML models. I've also spent the past year working with SQL (CTE, Windows function, etc)

[mortal wedge]

Fantastic, then I'd focus on being familiar with cloud computing. Running stuff locally works for smaller data sets, but not when you're working with Big Data

[dreamy shadow]

Only down side really is that there's not much cloud computing going on rn, we just starting to deploy SageMaker as a dev tool.

[mortal wedge]

Ah

[dreamy shadow]

Only other "cloud" would be jupyterhub, which I've worked with too.

I think I need to learn some more soft skills, i.e. understanding and converting business problems into solutions

[mortal wedge]

I'm trying to think of other topics that would be field agnostic. There may be specific tools to the field you're specialized in. Oh, that's great! Soft skills are important, moving up in your career may involve you interfacing more with other departments/non-data scientists, too. I'm being coached in that area by my manager atm. He's a lot more comfortable dancing for marketing and the execs whereas I'm just tempted to tell them their ideas are impossible, lol.

[smoky quest]

is this an interview question? What's the context?

[dreamy shadow]

Context is, 1-1 with my intermediate boss (My manager's manager) while my manager leaves for another company T_T

I would like to convey "moving up" somehow.

[smoky quest]

Got it. So sounds like they want to retain you and make sure you are happy there.
While the previous answers focus on the technical aspects, they don't have to be! You could very well mention some behavioral or career goals. For instance, you could ask to be trained in mentoring people or leading projects.

[mortal wedge]

Are you interested in management or would you prefer to be an individual contributor?

[smoky quest]

Then match your career ladder with where you are and your gaps.
But demonstrating leadership and growing your scope/impact would fit very well in that regard

[mortal wedge]

Whichever one you choose, I would let the person know so they know how to guide your career development as they are very different tracks

[dreamy shadow]

IC for now. Need a bit more experience before I would even be considered as management.

Leading projects is a good suggestion.

[mortal wedge]

That's the path I took. It's somewhere in-between management and IC. I'm a project manager, essentially. I mostly do work on my own while periodically meeting with management as well as my project team.

IT has its own drawbacks, but gives you career growth and visibility within the company as well as some say in project direction, without going full blown management when you're just in meetings 24/7 and never get to do any real work.

(Before any managers chime in, yes proper management is valuable work that can bring a lot of value to a business)

[dreamy shadow]

Well, I do want to move into people's management eventually. There's a general cap for IC.
But for now, I think leading projects and business acumen is something I need to work on.

[smoky quest]

you may want to check out your company's career ladder to get a good idea of the expectations and also put that on the radar of your manager/director. They can steer you towards well suited projects and grow you over time

[mortal wedge]

Gotcha, then definitely communicate that in the 1-1 and I'm sure they can help you move in that direction.

[dreamy shadow]

I did look at our org chart & the workday's "where you can transition into Opportunity graph". But, as a company in insurance, the titles are all "XYZ Specialist"

[smoky quest]

career ladder != org chart

[dreamy shadow]

My department's org chart makes me wanna cry lol

[smoky quest]

See https://www.swyx.io/career-ladders for instance

or https://dresscode.renttherunway.com/blog/ladder

[dreamy shadow]

The "opportunity graph" is more useful, it says X% of people moved here, or there.

[smoky quest]

that won't tell you what's required or the context

[dreamy shadow]

So it provides a short description, qualifications (Skills), and internal job postings.
e.g. "XYZ Specialist is an established, independent IC who's work has a direct impact on the team's outcome."

Also, I found out that these titles are SUPER specific.

[mortal wedge]

That sounds like... company jibberish, lol

Like, every team member's work has an impact on the outcome

[smoky quest]

also careful about how the incentives are laid out. Management will definitely play the games required to get their people promoted

[dreamy shadow]

The problem is that this specialist title, under job postings lists:

Specialist, associate, data engineering, IT Scrum Master

WHY? These are like 4 different roles... why are these listed under this title.

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, that's very confusing

Sounds like it's made by someone in HR who has no idea what they're doing

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, so I don't really trust our org chart or our opportunity graph. Within this department, the titles vary vastly.

[smoky quest]

because it's bs

career ladders would outline clearly what it takes for you to reach the next level

[dreamy shadow]

I see, this helps a lot more. (Looking at https://towardsdatascience.com/data-science-career-path-and-progression-1a45de62f474) I was also using salary.com Data Scientist II as reference.

I mean, at my current manager's level the titles range from: Leader I, AVP, Senior consultant, Associate II (Which is a manager role lol), Engagement lead.

[smoky quest]

these sorts of things are what your manager should help you navifate: where are you at in your current level and what you are missing to reach the next level and helping you getting there

[dreamy shadow]

Yea. I have most of what's listed as Mid-level, but I still need to work on the business side.

[mortal wedge]

The soft skills/business acumen is perhaps not very exciting to most of us, but is definitely invaluable. As you start to lead projects and/or sit in on more meetings you'll begin to pick it up.

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, unfortunately I was kept out of most meetings until recently. So just getting a sense of where everything fits in now. In hindsight, I should have asked to be added in more of them.

[mortal wedge]

Glad to hear you're included in them now! Really helps with visibility

[craggy current]

Guys, I'm a physicist with Master's Degree (29 years old) who currently is having a little crisis. I always thought I would be a quantum physicist and that's what I learned but on my last job, I had some Data Science tasks which I enjoyed more than expected. Now I'm in between jobs and have to decide in which direction to take my life and I tend to go with data science. But looking at my skills they are fairly minimal, so I dont have the confidence to just apply for jobs. That's why I'm currently looking at 2 options a) go for another masters (around 3 yrs total) in "Artificial Intelligence" and take DS courses there or b) learn with online resources and just apply for low level jobs and learn on the job from there. What would you recommend is best ?

[robust escarp]

hi guys, I'm Thanh (24 years old ). i want to ask a question, does anyone here use python language in automation testing??

[spark cobalt]

Yes.

[wind ginkgo]

Hi, @robust escarp nice to meet you. I am Tiancheng (32 years old)

I have experience with automation testing using python. Could you share the requirements in detail with me?

[vapid jay]

as a fellow ex-physicist i would suggest software all the way. not just data science instead of quantum research. just leave science behind. it's paid badly and it's tough to make anything that you can earn money with on your own without already being a millionaire. with software you can always release something on your own and escape the wage slavery and slide into that passive income dream. that should always be the end goal. humanity and it's civilization are nearing it's end anyway so there's not really much of a point in finding new things out. just make money, chill, consume.
you learned physics, you can learn coding. it's about a billion times less complex. you also don't need to do a masters in anything. just learn it yourself and then get it certified by whoever does the certification for it. much faster and more efficient. in the meantime sell your soul to some corporation as code monkey in order to feed and house yourself through the learning and certification process. all you gotta do is balance burnout with progress efficiency. and by managing burnout i mean don't be weak. don't expect too much of a life outside of what you'll be doing.
now all you need is to come up with some kind of software that you can develop on your own and that generates enough passive income for you to consume the amount of resources of your choice without having to do things or move too much. after all that's what automation is for, isn't it?

[vapid jay]

working with python selenium on web testing and data gathering this very moment

[karmic sail]

Afaik having a STEM degree is already very good when going for CS jobs like Data Science. I don't think another masters for CS is necessary here.

[cyan skiff]

What does it take to get a job as a machine learning engineer?

will 2 relevant master's be enough or is a phd mandatory

[pastel thunder]

i have heard of people working in that field without even masters

[buoyant elm]

For an entry level ML engineer role, a bachelor's with a very good profile or a masters should be sufficient
However, it really depends on what kind of roles you're willing to go for
Some do have a PhD as the minimum requirement for an internship
So yeah there's both ends of the spectrum i guess

[white relic]

My suggestion is to find a data science job in a project where your physics experience is relevant. That is a rare combination of skills and some company will be happy to take a chance on a physicist who wants to learn DS over a data scientist who needs to be taught the physics. I'm in electronics research myself. There are a lot of R&D projects that would probably hire you as is.

[buoyant elm]

The PhD ones are mostly ML research roles tbh
A single relevant masters should be pretty sufficient if you aim to remain in just ML engineering/dev roles

[buoyant elm]

Yeppp
Check out https://ml4sci.org/
In addition, there's some really good research going on at CERN using both physics and ML

[white relic]

If you are in the US or EU, it is worth noting there's a lot of chips act money in the system right now for projects at the intersection of fundamental physics and engineering, and they need data scientists.

[buoyant elm]

Oh wait you've studied to be a quantum physicist
So you should also be perfectly suited for Quantum ML
It's a very exciting field, fun stuff
ML4SCI has some Quantum ML projs too iirc

[vapid jay]

i know people working in that field without ever going to uni. probably depends on where this is and what the industry-culture is

[cyan skiff]

to be honest, I don't really care about the nature of the role i.e research/engineering/MLops. I only care about the income:time ratio, overall compensation and job stability

[cyan skiff]

why would a master's in AI take 3 years..? are you going at it part-time?

[acoustic wolf]

I posted my resume here yesterday and have worked on it since using the advice that was given. I was wondering if I could get more feedback on it today. Thank you

[still dragon]

cough

[near ocean]

I would split personal projects from work experience so they stand out more, also name them and link to their source code

[acoustic wolf]

good idea, thank you

[gritty rivet]

In separating out your work experience you can also use a standard format for each one like title, company, dates, description.

[near ocean]

Convention presentations and paper authorships should go in their own section too i think, titled Professional Accolades or something

[acoustic wolf]

Thanks for the advice everyone, I appreciate it. I was thinking of adding more sections, but I think I only had one more line of space left before it spilled over onto another page

[near ocean]

You could squish your contact info section to 2 lines

(And also decrease your margins)

[acoustic wolf]

That's true. I made the margin at the bottom just a bit smaller, but I was worried that messing with the width would make it look weird. I'll give it a shot though

[true harness]

that font is absolutely terrible. use a normal font like times new roman or cambria or computer modern

[acoustic wolf]

this is Times New Roman lol

[near ocean]

It looks like compression is messing it up

[acoustic wolf]

yeah it's probably weird looking because it's a screenshot

[peak halo]

when we say "two relevant masters degrees", how relevant are we talking? if one of them is in CS and you took ML courses (or better yet, published on ML), you shouldn't have too much difficulty.

[cosmic forge]

what does a server-side dev do/use?

[gritty rivet]

That could mean anything. If that's another way of saying backend web developer, see https://roadmap.sh/backend

[keen halo]

Hello mate

[cosmic forge]

i do not like using html and css, so front end is out, i’ve never worked with apis but I do not think i would like it, so

[gritty rivet]

I've heard that 80% of software engineering is getting one janky API to work with another, and in my limited experience that's 100% truth

[mortal wedge]

https://xkcd.com/1988/

xkcd: Containers

All services are microservices if you ignore most of their features.

[dense mesa]

Used to think it was magic, now it's basically just doing stuff with bits of text

[mortal wedge]

Just to add on to what other people have said, oftentimes the jobs at major players in the industry have PhD as a requirement. It's a little ridiculous. If you have the option to choose between a second masters and a PhD, I'd say go PhD

[delicate bane]

being able to translate technical issues to non-technical audiences is a super important skill thats helped me so far

[mortal wedge]

Most executives, definitely HR, and probably design and marketing will have no idea what you're talking about if you approach from a purely technical stance

[mortal wedge]

The inverse is also important, being able to turn non-technical requests back to discrete engineering specifications/problems

[delicate bane]

for sure, for sure. especially ambiguous problems that may not have a clear answer

[mortal wedge]

Of course, sometimes you do just have to say that it can't be done, lol

[delicate bane]

im still relatively junior but im starting to learn more and more about this

yep yep. especially in the data science space

"what, AI can't solve all our problems and make them go away like magic?" "nope."

[crimson ferry]

fax 100

[mortal wedge]

I really like when they ask you to use machine learning and data isn't even involved. "We want you to use machine learning." "Okay, are there datasets you want to analyze?" 'No, just make sure you include machine learning" 😵

[delicate bane]

apparently it looks good if the business can go back to their investors and give them that line. a real bruh moment.

[mortal wedge]

That's 100% what it is and I hate it

"Okay, one mostly insignificant analysis algorithm in our pipeline uses machine learning now"

[delicate bane]

yeah thats partly why i might try to stay away from the management track at least for now. or if i could do half mgmt and half IC, might move towards that route if possible. so i can basically tell them 'thats not how that works' on everything lol

[delicate bane]

linear regression lmao

[mortal wedge]

One thing most engineers need to work on is learning how to tell them "that's not how it works at all" elegantly. The head neuroscientist at my company is the most brilliant person and qualified people I know. He is informally known as the father of the field. He doesn't get invited to meetings anymore. (Which I think is a glaring mistake I've spoken up about before.) It's because he always tells people "No" and that they can't do whatever the latest thing that marketing wants to sell, lol. But he can be extremely blunt.

[dreamy shadow]

Yes, these are skills that are build on over time imo. I mean, you technically could take a class for it? But better use in practice.

[mortal wedge]

In my engineering coursework, we did have classes on this, haha

both in translating business jargon to engineering specifications and vice versa

[dreamy shadow]

My undergrad was way too theoretical. Prove this, prove that. What does it actually mean?

[delicate bane]

someone said this on a podcast and i agree. "its like dating. you could read a book on it or you could go on dates to learn how to do it." 💀

[dreamy shadow]

lmao, some books these days will literally sandbag you

[mortal wedge]

Well, mainly the business jargon to engineering specifications. Going from science to businessese is always a struggle. Ah hah . My engineering school was very practically oriented. "Learn by doing" was the school motto

[delicate bane]

best way to learn some skills tbh

[mortal wedge]

My school wasn't perfect, but that part they definitely did right

[delicate bane]

just make sure you have a safety net/safe environment when you inevitably mess up through the trial and error process lol

[dreamy shadow]

I had one class that stuck with me: "Applied statistics: Machine Learning"

The rest, I kinda already forgot lmao. Name the 5 assumptions of Linear Regression?

[delicate bane]

the best approach thats worked for me so far is to not just say it cant be done but give a brief overview of the reasons why + alternative solutions/compromises. no one likes someone who just says no but doesnt offer solutions

[dreamy shadow]

The answer has to be "Yes, but xyz constraints are here to stay"

[pastel thunder]

lmao actually my friend doing a bachelors in mechanical engineering(havent even completed yet) and have a Data Scientist(DL oriented) role at disposal .
i didnt mention those things cuz they are quite rare, but yes everything is possible.

[mortal wedge]

I watched the company president shut down a topic by offering a story about how another company did the same thing and then crashed and burned. I think that's an elegant way to do it, because it's not you being combative or hindering progress, you're just sharing a tale

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, anything is possible, but a lot of things are highly improbably and aren't worth structuring your career/life around.

[pastel thunder]

yeah true, thats why i dont want to say you can do this or that

[mortal wedge]

I had an ex who to be frank was not smart. She got a job as an API developer after a quick boot camp then three months later got promoted to manager.

But I would never tell anybody that they should expect that kind of career track

[acoustic wolf]

There's a bias against men that is pretty evident lol. My friend is an electrical engineer, he says he sees things like this pretty commonly

[mortal wedge]

From what I've heard and seen there's more of a bias against women. But I still have no idea how to explain what the situation was with my ex.

But power to her I guess, I wish her well ||even though she wishes I died tragically in any sort of accident||

[pastel thunder]

i think it more of a location thing, its opposite here (negligible though in urbans)

[delicate bane]

thats a bruh moment

[near ocean]

Are bootcamps more beneficial if youre a woman? I've also noticed this bias for women in hiring

[delicate bane]

wdym

[pastel thunder]

||only when the hiring manager is thirsty||

[near ocean]

Positions asking for women exclusively or women-only orgs aggressively pushing for women in tech positions
We got an applicant today that went through a Code First Girls bootcamp as her only "tech credentials" whereas the male applicants we get usually have a couple degrees in STEM or years of exp

[mortal wedge]

Huh

[near ocean]

This CFG org has many other programs that basically guarantee a position in a tech company at the end, they call them microdegrees or whatever

[mortal wedge]

This is news to me. I just know that women in tech are particularly targetted for sexual harassment moreso than other disciplines and that historically there has been a bias against them in terms of pay/promotions.

At least in the US. MAybe we've overcorrected, I don't know. I'd have to look at some data.

[mortal wedge]

Maybe some women oriented businesses are doing this to combat the prejudice in the industry

[delicate bane]

sounds like the bootcamp has a partnership with some companies. they probably get some grant money for this initiative since its to address the skew

[mortal wedge]

That's most likely the case. Cool.

[delicate bane]

other bootcamps have other partnerships with other companies. usually alumni are involved

yeah i dont see it as a bad thing, but we should probably stay away from potential political topics just in case lol

[acoustic wolf]

I wouldn't say it's political, and it's a well known phenomenon at this point lol

[near ocean]

Well if its true it kinda skews the degree v bootcamp advice towards bootcamp for women

[delicate bane]

it starts to get political when people start seeing it as an "unfair advantage" but again, lets stay away from this

[acoustic wolf]

It is an unfair advantage though, and it's important to be aware of it in order to manage expectations, in my opinion

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, we should probably stay away from things that get too political, mb

[acoustic wolf]

It's just another factor in the hiring process, telling people to stick their heads in the sand about it isn't productive

[mortal wedge]

I don't entirely disagree, but topics that are controversial are not likely to lead to productive conversations about those topics.

[teal spade]

Hey guys, I want to become a software developer and I’m very interested in coding especially python. I like computer science a lot. But my only problem is that my maths is very bad, my computer science teacher told me I’ll need math to get into a good university but not so much as for an actual job. Anyone know how true this is?

[gilded valley]

I think you can make a good argument it's skewed in the first place. CS degrees are massively male dominated, that's at the very least an environment in which some women will find it harder to thrive

[gilded valley]

It's a phenomenon that does exist, but I don't take it as a given that the reverse doesn't exist in a weaker but broader form - that broadly men are biased in favour of other men giving women a slight disadvantage. It's overall just a bit of a shit scenario

[mortal wedge]

It depends on the job, scientific computing will still involve a ton of math. But otherwise your teacher's general thrust is correct, university comp sci classes generally assume you have the underlying math down and will teach that way. But once you're in industry, a lot of programmers hardly touch anything math related.

[smoky quest]

How would a gender impact the value of a bootcamp or a degree?

[vapid jay]

i know I'm probably asking in a biased forum, but if I wanted to swap careers, would you expect my fastest path to be with python and going into some data field or html css and js and going into web development?

[gilded valley]

What's your current career, do you have a degree?

[olive blaze]

https://d20vrrgs8k4bvw.cloudfront.net/documents/en-US/Programming+for+Data+Science+with+Python+Nanodegree+Program+Syllabus.pdf

is this nanodegree a good starter for data engineering/analytics career?

[gilded valley]

What's your starting point? What country are you in?
do you have a degree, existing relevant experience?

[olive blaze]

basic python. egypt

[mortal wedge]

Is the question you're asking if it would be faster to learn python or faster to learn html/css/js? I think both would be pretty fast, I'd focus on what you'd be wanting to do. Doing data science versus web development are fairly different career paths

[gilded valley]

I'm afraid I don't know much about Egypt other than it's substantially different enough to the EU/US that I have nothing useful to be able to say

[near ocean]

If theres a higher chance to find work through a bootcamp wouldnt you recommend it more or give it more weight?

[olive blaze]

what does this have to do with anything

[gilded valley]

job markets are hugely dependant on country/location

[smoky quest]

Outcome of getting hired depend on your education/experience. So a bootcamp wouldn't add more chances than a degree

[mortal wedge]

I think you're missing prior context on the topic discussion

[olive blaze]

mostly aws/kubernetes go/python/sql

like any other company that's operating on the cloud

[gilded valley]

I mean what is required to land a job is completely different in different parts of the world. Some places exclusively care about accredited degrees, some places don't really care about them all that much. Some places value XYZ trait or skill, some others don't care

it is a very geographic split. From the 2 Egyptians I've spoken to, I understand the tech scene in Egypt is veyr weird

[olive blaze]

degrees are not accredited if the company is decent

[gritty rivet]

Here in the US, this program would carry no weight in itself, but if you have a good portfolio at the end, could still be worth doing

[olive blaze]

it's nothing in itself. is it a good starter?

[acoustic wolf]

That doesn't change the fact that it exists in this context. Whether or not you believe in the opposite is irrelevant

[gritty rivet]

It says it covers basic SQL, Python and version control. You could probably learn those things for free if you have the discipline. So it's a matter of what works for you, budget, timeline, etc.

Maybe worth checking if people are listing this in LinkedIn and if so asking what they think.

[gilded valley]

Whether or not you believe in the opposite is irrelevant

Strongly disagree. I think it is desirable to have a more balanced workforce in tech, and this is one approach that helps you get there.

to be more specific - I'm talking about hiring from programs designed to get women into tech (girls who code etc)

[vapid jay]

I'm a civil engineer, no degree, but I do have a diploma that's equivalent to the first 1-2 years of uni and have professional certifications

[olive blaze]

I have it pirated. not paying a dime

[vapid jay]

I see

[gritty rivet]

How much Python vs JS do you currently know? Are you interested in doing front end work?

[vapid jay]

I've heard that even as a web developer you should learn python for use as an interview language, any truth to that?

[acoustic wolf]

Then you are advocating for the hiring of someone based mostly on gender. Which brings us back to the original point of there being an evident bias against men

[gritty rivet]

Can be helpful, far from essential

[gilded valley]

I think it could be feasible that you pivot into data analytics, I'd assume the civil engineer experience would get you in the door for some interviews.

[gilded valley]

I'm not advocating for blindly hiring, just that it seems pretty reasonable to be offering interviews on that basis

[vapid jay]

beginner-intermediate in both. Completed some entry level courses for both. I like the idea of being a web developer as I feel it opens more possibilities for side hustles/contracting/own company, but I'm not the most creative person so I have concerns about my front end abilities

[acoustic wolf]

Which brings us back to the original point of there being an evident bias against men. It sounds more like you're trying to justify your stance to yourself, not me

[gilded valley]

Which brings us back to the original point of there being an evident bias against men
The broader picture matters, there might be some very specific bias against men here, but it exists in the context of a much broader bias in their favour

[vapid jay]

my company actually has an in house digital delivery team that works on software development, so I definitely think I could get into the field easier as a python developer, and then maybe learn the web development stuff on the side?

[gritty rivet]

You don't have to have any visual design or UX skills to be a decent full stack developer.

[gilded valley]

sure - yes - I am very explicitly saying we should bias interview selection in favour of underrepresented groups

[vapid jay]

ah, do companies typically keep the designer and developer roles seperate?

[acoustic wolf]

Yes, you are correct, there is an evident bias against men when it comes to getting hired in these roles

[gilded valley]

you seem to be saying this is bad. I think it is largely acceptable because otherwise we get stuck with a forever problem of a very biased workforce

[gilded valley]

do you agree there's a broader bias against women when it comes to getting hired into generic roles?

[acoustic wolf]

No, because the opposite is true

[vapid jay]

I see both points, but I don't think gender should be a contributing factor in someone's decision to hire someone, whether underrepresented in the workforce or not. hiring should be based solely on ability, in my opinion

[gilded valley]

If you can pivot into a role where you're doing python as part of your day job - that seems by far the easiest way into it. And then yeah, pick up other things on the side

[vapid jay]

perfect, I think that's the path I'll take then! Thank you for your advice

[gilded valley]

So you're saying there's no bias against women in tech at all?

[acoustic wolf]

No, I said that in general there is a favoritism for women seeking employment, which is true.

[gilded valley]

why do you think the field is so massively skewed in favour of men?

[acoustic wolf]

For instance, the majority of PhDs go to women, while only 25% of computer science PhDs went to women in 2020. Do you think there are fewer women in computer science because they are all being turned down, or simply because they are far fewer in number? https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/women-earned-the-majority-of-doctoral-degrees-in-2020-for-the-12th-straight-year-and-outnumber-men-in-grad-school-148-to-100/

[vapid jay]

damn, women smoking us in the medical sciences fields, 2.5:1

[gilded valley]

My guess is that the correct level to do this analysis is the university level. I would guess there's far fewer applicants in general, but this is partly a result of filtering happening much earlier in the education process

[mortal wedge]

Unfortunately, the best language to use in an interview is one the interviewer is familiar with, lol. It's probably going to be whichever language is on the job posting. Some jobs do let you choose between a few languages, but this is the minority

[buoyant seal]

public administration is striking too

[acoustic wolf]

There is a bias against men and boys at all levels of the education process.

[gritty rivet]

If they're big enough and care about good graphic design and good UX, they hire professionals in those fields. For some products and/or stages of development those things aren't as important and most full stack engineers I know don't excel in those areas

[vapid jay]

gotcha, thank you for the advice

[gilded valley]

you keep implying there is only one bias that can exist at any given place. There are definitely places where education is skewed in favour of women and girls, and that pathways are made much harder to boys and men - I agree

That says nothing about the reverse

[acoustic wolf]

I didn't imply anything. I stated the fact that there is a hiring bias against men in STEM, and that men and boys are discriminated against in all levels of the education process

[gilded valley]

So is there a bias against women at any level of education?

[buoyant seal]

I didn't imply anything. I stated the fact that there is a hiring bias against men in STEM, and that men and boys are discriminated against in all levels of the education process
I think according to those statistics it is the opposite.
Men are winning in STEM
And Women are winning in Education/Medical/Administration xD

[sterile moat]

Hello everyone! I would like to know if anyone here is a coach or mentor for IT interviews. Specifically for Technical Software Developer interviews
I need to ask you some important questions

[gilded valley]

@acoustic wolf at this point the conversation is off-topic, and probably just hurting people who are looking for advice. Shall we move to #ot1-perplexing-regexing?

[vapid jay]

I do have to agree with this, from a civil engineering perspective. A former employer of mine had a policy where 25% of all promotions had to be female. That company simultaneously had approximately 10% of the workforce being comprised of females, meaning females had FAR greater chances of promotion than males, regardless of ability. You had 90% of the workforce fighting for 75% of the promotions and 10% of the workforce fighting for 25% of the promotions. It meant I personally witnessed numerous incompetent females get promoted above some of the best engineers I've worked with, solely on account of their gender

[acoustic wolf]

Men choose to go into something like, say, computer science. Producing three times as many qualified men as women in that field. That doesn't necessarily mean there is a bias against women in computer science, simply that there are far fewer. By that logic we could argue that there are massive biases against men in Education/Medical Science/Administration

[gilded valley]

There almost certainly are biases against men in fields such as primary education

[buoyant seal]

Sure, difference can be just from cultural point, more people are raised in the way to like going STEM as men, and into EMA as women.
Or may be biologica/chemical difference contributes too

[gritty rivet]

There is a bias in the field, regardless of the cause

[acoustic wolf]

Yes, and apparently it's a bias against hiring men, a fact that has been stated numerous times above.

[gilded valley]

I'm very curious to hear your answer to this question @acoustic wolf

[vapid jay]

in what country?

[gilded valley]

whatever country Tyler is in, presumably the US (moved to #ot1-perplexing-regexing)

[pastel quail]

the way i see it, there is bias both for and against women in tech; structural / implicit / societal bias against us, and some explicit bias for us in the form of quotas / other policies that companies have to maintain a reasonable gender ratio.

[teal spade]

Thanks a lot :)

[noble tusk]

what are job tendencies in europe?

[kind bolt]

Malaysian potato farmer

[noble tusk]

they get better money than jr python dev?

[near ocean]

Do you have specific questions about python jobs in Europe? Super vague open ended questions only get super vague open ended answers

[peak halo]

there aren't really "junior python devs". there are junior backend web devs, and there are junior AI developers.

and other junior devs who know how to do a certain kind of development, which may involve Python.

[gritty rivet]

Tell that to all the companies that advertise openings for Python Developers. 😉

[mortal wedge]

Sometimes company postings are made entirely by HR with little input from engineering/hiring managers. In those case you get silly openings like that

[tropic marsh]

How can i set myself up for success when i take cs major in college (im 14 yrs old and im intermediate in python id say)

[spark cobalt]

Projects, getting invested into open source.

Realized a good way to find open source to contribute is stalk like a dozen CS majors on LinkedIn. Just literally type "CS" or "SWE Intern" and a shit ton of them have open source in their experience.

[vapid jay]

Hi all, I am a backed developer (Django). I freelance as a developer and on my free time I am learning ML.** For some reason I was not able to complete my schooling, so I have this question would I be able to get a job if I work hard and learn ML on my own ? or it is just a waste of time, for me **

[tropic marsh]

How long do you think it would take to be ig college ready for cs? Ive been coding for maybe 2 years now

[grim spruce]

How to find projects to commit to or ideas to begin?

[lime plume]

yo

[spark cobalt]

I don't really know what you mean by college ready. I've been programming for 2 years as well and I'm already working full time as SWE. (18 now). And of course in contrast you have people starting CS in college with absolutely no knowledge whatsoever.

I did think of something else though. Depending on what field you want to get into, picking up college level math would be super huge. Getting a headstart on the likes of linear algebra, etc. Not necessarily being at the college level, but crossing the barrier of having the math symbols be fluent in your mind (big barrier for many college students).

[vapid jay]

college level is only mandatory if you're going to be into the college educational sector in TI. To work in cool positions, a bunch of awaken nights googling programing stuff is more than enough.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah. Just generally without college, it's easily forseeable there are higher barriers of entry to some areas. Making up for college degree with no sleep.

[vapid jay]

Follow people that are doing things you think is cool, get inspiration from them, let the idea become itself in the process.

[smoky quest]

Don't worry too much about it. Colleges/University will assume the incoming students know nothing.
So in the mean time:

• Make sure you have the grades to get into the college of your choice. Having a degree will be quite important to a great career and a lot of fun too
• Have fun and build things! Build robots, websites, games, mobile apps, backends, etc. That will help you acquire skills, have fun and discover the various tasks/roles in the field so that you can see what you like or dislike

[smoky quest]

@vapid jay Have you brought that up with your manager?
Do you have career goals and a plan in place with your manager to achieve them?

[vapid jay]

not a pro

but yeah, I am good at it

yeah, if I am good at math, will I be able to get a job ? will my education allow me to ?

skills are in my hand, I will get that done

not my education, I just cannot go back to school

[balmy mural]

If you plan on going into a machine learning engineer/data science route, a degree is much more necessary than traditional software development roles. There's varying sources on the numbers, but generally over 50% of people working in the field have at least a Masters degree

[vapid jay]

ahaan

[dense mesa]

Personally wouldn't recommend asking for cold referrals as it can backfire easily

It's generally not a good idea to get a name for asking people you've never met to vouch for you at their work

[summer roost]

The reason referrals are valued is that they let you skip some of the HR red tape. They do that because HR is willing to trust existing employees' recommendations as to your skills and employability. Asking someone who doesn't know you to provide that recommendation for you is essentially asking them to lie for you.

[vapid jay]

I'm kind of afraid that if I bring it up I'll be fired. I don't think they can fire me, though.

[summer roost]

The easiest way to get a raise is always jumping to another company. That said, hiring people is expensive, and if your company is at all competent they'd rather retain talent than not. Firing someone for saying "I think I deserve better pay" would be really unlikely. Much less likely than just saying "we can't afford to pay you more right now"

[smoky quest]

If that's your fear, then just interview and go to a better place. That might be stressful but that may also enable you to assess better your market value and strength/weaknesses.

[vapid jay]

you would be surprised how little cost or retaining talent matter compared to the bloated ego of middle management.
but no, one typically wouldn't be fired for wanting more pay. usually you'd be fed that "we can't afford to pay you more right now"-line over and over while money is literally burnt on stupid crap.
this suggestion obviously depends on many many factors but in general if i would even think i could be fired for demanding more money or would be denied a raise over and over again i would start looking for a better job.

[true harness]

@analog sun here also

[safe loom]

Good news, I passed my interview. Now I just need to not be a fucknugget when it comes to human interaction.

[gritty rivet]

Most engineers are, and yet we still get hired. You'll be fine 😉

[noble tusk]

I want to get 1 for everything

[safe loom]

That was what the IT leader told me, that I had the skills but still needed to improve over communication, especially around business intelligence managers

[safe loom]

Btw what people in Europe usually mean for a job as a Python developer is either as a software engineer (backend, devops) or outright developing Python's language (like version 3.12)

[near ocean]

Theres only one core cpython dev job and its taken and also not a python job lol

If you want to work with python regardless of the industry your best bet is getting into AI and machine learning
Its far more common lang in those areas than backend

[sour flint]

How would one find a way to get a military grade Cyber security development career degree?

[near ocean]

What do you mean by all that

[peak halo]

are you in the US? the military and their contractors won't really look at you if you don't have a degree. so I would get a CS degree and take any cybersec courses that you can, and seek to intern with the military/contractors while you're in school.

also, you will need to get a security clearance. so do not do weed, even if it's legal in your state.

[delicate bane]

i feel like the most common takeaway here in this channel is to "go to college, folks" (obv if you can)

a recurring theme, if you will

[true harness]

are you in the US? the air force has a cybersec thing for high school grads, might be worth considering

[peak halo]

this channel is mostly career-aged people talking to teenagers. or at least it makes sense to assume that that's the case based on last year's survey results.

[delicate bane]

hmm i think discord as a platform probably skews on the younger side. im assuming platforms like slack are where more career-aged peeps are

[peak halo]

or irc, amirite?

[delicate bane]

omg stop.

[vapid jay]

well, large companies are who hires most people and those companies want a piece of paper with a stamp. if you want to work for those you better get that stamp.

[delicate bane]

oh im not arguing against this. i also agree going to college makes it easier down the line but obv not everyone can afford to

[dreamy shadow]

Community college for years 1-2 as it is much more affordable, and then transfer to a university for the last 2 years. Half the loans minimum.

[summer roost]

I personally know people who smoked weed in high school, back when it was illegal in every state, and still got clearances. My understanding is that they'll ask if you've smoked weed, but they don't particularly care what the answer is. They just want to see that you don't get stressed and lie about it. The portion of the background check that prior drug use falls into is trying to figure out how easy it would be to blackmail you. If you don't get stressed, lie, and try to cover it up, then it's not something that would aid a malicious actor in turning you, so they don't care.

that's not to say "go do drugs, kids", just to let people know that having done drugs in the past isn't likely to cost them their dream job.

[uncut jay]

I come from a different discord channel for React devs and we have a "Job advice/discussion" channel that tends to be full of actual working-age devs" so it's not impossible

I think maybe the channel title suggests people who are looking to get into coding as well, although it might have intended to be for people who already have dev careers

[delicate bane]

if not more yeah

[peak halo]

afaik, what matters is that you haven't done it within the last year.

[true harness]

but they ask for the last 7 years 😔

[dreamy shadow]

lmao, I don't even recall what I did in the past year. Let alone 7

[peak halo]

it might not be possible to do the major-specific courses in two years. at my university, the "prerequisite stack" for senior capstone is four semesters deep.

You also have to take into account missed income if you end up taking more than four years to get the degree. That could easily end up being tens of thousands more than what you save from community college.

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, missed income is a consideration. I would say it depends more so on the student loan amount & interest.

[summer geyser]

Is 8 days no communication after final interview a ghost?

[dreamy shadow]

Have you followed up at all yet?

[summer geyser]

I emailed recruiter two days ago and thanked her for the interview process and said I look forward to hearing back

[summer roost]

companies generally don't ghost candidates. At least, good companies don't. It's unprofessional, and really doesn't buy them anything - it's barely less work than sending a rejection email, and it leaves people with a negative impression of them. A more likely scenario is that you did well, but not well enough for them to offer you the job immediately, and they're finishing up interviews that had already been scheduled with a few other candidates before deciding whether you're the best fit they've got on hand.

[dreamy shadow]

Maybe follow up again on Monday. Sometimes some companies are just slow. The bigger the company, the slower lmao.

[summer roost]

not necessarily. My first job after college was at a company with ~5k software engineers, and they extended me the offer less than 2 hours after my final interview.

[dreamy shadow]

I'm talking about like companies with 100k+ employees.

[summer geyser]

They’re an HR software company too so you’d think they would be on top of it 😂

[dreamy shadow]

They could be in the process of finishing up interviews for other final candidates too.

[cosmic forge]

i started messing with using apis last night, I enjoy it, but i don’t know how hard it would be on a heavier scale, i know back end devs use apis and such but apis are the only thing in a while i have enjoyed that actually can be useful for the future

[summer geyser]

She had been on top of it, like calling me day after each step and everything so that’s what makes me worried. I think yeah if I haven’t heard by like Tuesday next week then maybe send another

[summer roost]

there's a lot of factors that go into how quickly the company makes an offer. For more senior roles, they're likely to take longer than for more junior roles, for instance - because they can afford to take the time to be pickier for the senior role, and because there's more cost to a bad choice.

[summer geyser]

This one is new grad

[dreamy shadow]

Just follow up on Monday and keep applying.

[summer roost]

that's more likely a slightly positive sign than a negative sign, to me. It's more likely that you did fairly well than that you did poorly - they're usually quicker to issue rejections than offers.

[true harness]

does a company need my SSN for a "security screen" for a position that needs a security clearance? the SSN question is required in the form

[summer geyser]

Sounds good. I know that you’re supposed to just do it and forget about it but this is like the one company I do wanna work at so 😂

[summer roost]

but yeah, continuing to apply to other jobs definitely still makes sense.

[dreamy shadow]

The thing about jobs is, you don't always get in the company you want. (Unless you have some back door connections)

[summer geyser]

I’ve been trying to think that maybe no news is good news. Someone who works in a different dept there told me he’s seen rejection letters that they’ve sent out in the past. Gives me some hope at least

Thanks for the answers yall. Never know where to ask these type of things lol

[summer roost]

there's a lot more reasons why it might take them some time to make an offer (or to decide whether to make an offer) than why it would take time to send a rejection letter (or to decide whether to reject you)

[dreamy shadow]

Just don't over think it. Or you'll get all worried over an outcome you have no control over anyways.

[summer roost]

yeah. Keep applying to other jobs. Best case scenario, you get another offer, and you can then apply pressure to the first company if you still haven't heard back.

[dreamy shadow]

It took like 3 weeks for me to get my written offer from my verbal offer

I had to ask for a extension on my start date since I don't give notice until I get a written offer.

[summer geyser]

Back to leet code and applying 😄

[smoky quest]

It's not signed until it's signed.
The pressure goes both ways too. Any day they waste is a potential day where you could get another competing offer

[tropic marsh]

Ur 14?

[mortal wedge]

This is often the case in smaller companies or when HR is staffed by a single person who has to manage all new hires as well as other HR related tasks. I had about a month before I got accepted until the paperwork was finalized and I started working. Took the time to learn Python from scratch ^_^

[noble tusk]

i saw guy doing haskell tutorial on youtube and hes 10 (he also used gentoo or arch of some kind)

[mortal wedge]

Sometimes what businesses do is keep less qualified candidates "on the hook" while they're evaluating their top candidate(s). If they fail their interview or the hire falls through, they'll move on to their less qualified candidates.

I've actually sent in resumes that got rejected in less than an hour on the weekend (why you working on the weekend, go home!) and have sent in resumes that got instantly rejected (automated)

[mortal wedge]

This is not uncommon for certain companies related to state/government positions or defense contractors

Obviously only you can decide if you feel comfortable sharing it, but it's not illegal for them to ask and they likely will use it for a security screen

[summer geyser]

I got it!

[near ocean]

Congrats

[summer geyser]

Thanks!!

[mortal wedge]

Excellent! So happy for you 🙂

[near ocean]

Contract/offer letter? What role is this again?

[summer geyser]

Thank y’all! It’s where I’ve wanted to work for a couple years now. I graduate in May. It’s a full time software dev role

It was a verbal offer and since I agreed to it (long as the written matches ofc) then they are putting it together and sending it

[mortal wedge]

Oh, that's so awesome! THat time after you leave college and before you start working your first career job is one of the most stressful for recent grads. Glad you're able to avoid that!

[summer geyser]

I have read the horror stories lol. That’s why I was so worried about this working out because it was my schools best and only “tech” connection lol

Got my start date pushed back to middle of June too so I will have like a month off after I graduate

[mortal wedge]

THat's excellent! Should celebrate 🙂

[mortal wedge]

IF you enjoy it, learn into it! I've found that learning more about something I enjoy came much more readily than learning about matplotlib

I meant lean into it, but it's cute the way I did it

[spark cobalt]

Student loans super easy to pay back in this field ngl.

Personally did it for time. Didn't wanna dump 4 years of prime time of my life for something I hate (college).

If I wanna go to college, will be when my life settled down and looking for sustainability.

[weary crag]

Hey, do you think its better to include less projects in the project section in my cv but add a few more bullet points or should i add more projects with less bullet points? I am kinda struggling to fit everything on one page 😄

[summer roost]

that's not a ton of information to go on, but I'd guess that employers would generally find larger projects more impressive than smaller ones, so highlighting fewer projects but putting effort into highlighting their breadth and depth might be the best option.

[weary crag]

this is the first part

[weary crag]

i thought about removing the last two projects in order to fit the certificats section on the page

different question: is it bad to use abbreviations for technical terms? for example convolutional neural netowrk as CNN?

[buoyant seal]

everyone uses this term in machine learning circles, but u will have to clarify at least anywhere in the document beginning at least once that CNN is Convolutional Neural Network. Then u are free to use your abbreviation for sure in the rest of a document. At least that's a good tone... how to use abbreviations and having readable documents

hehe, like programming a code. U need to assign at least once your value to variable CNN, before u can reuse this variable

[summer roost]

that's the norm for prose, but resumes and CVs are expected to be terse. I certainly wouldn't expand "HTTP" in a resume, but I'm not really sure about "CNN". I lean towards using it without expanding the abbreviation, especially if you're applying for jobs related to ML or AI

[buoyant seal]

haven't noticed context above
in this case i guess norm to use abbreviation only, as long as there are sufficient hints around of it that it is from ML ecosystem

[weary crag]

okay cool. thanks guys👍

[dense mesa]

If in doubt, define

[zealous ruin]

hi myself i am a high school student(studying 11th grade ) and i have learnedd python and what should i learn (frameworks ) to get a job/

please ping me when replying to me

[peak halo]

You could learn Django, I guess. But you'll have more options if you got a degree

[zealous ruin]

degree? well it will take 4 years i guess

but why degree sir?

what are the required job roles of python in top tech companies?

i mean in demand skills

[spark cobalt]

Imo a Discord bot with some React website that works with a REST framework like Django is one of the best projects to do. (Or other iterations of the same idea) for following reasons:

• It's nearly infinitely scalable and very liberal in terms of what you want to add. You can delve into data science, ML, image manipulation, web scraping, etc., and implement it in a Discord bot.
• Benefit of having a website attached to it is that a website is one of the easier things to show in terms of what you're capable of doing. And if you ever demo it, it's super easy for anyone to connect pieces of how the UI interacts with the bot.
• You in total get to touch front end, back end, APIs, (both in using and making one), database and database design, and many other technologies.
• The project in itself is impressive, not only due to size, but it kind of implies that you have some maturity in term of design and that you have the ability to think in bigger scale of things.
• Also get some experience in a full life cycle of an application. From the drawing board all the way to deployment. (And then maintenance, pushing new features/releases, etc.)

If bot becomes big for whatever reason:

• You also get experience in dealing with a lot of data requests and writes. You may then also consider working with some cloud technologies which is a thing companies are moving to.

[spark cobalt]

It's either degree, or during your free time you make up for the knowledge you're missing in a degree to get a job. (Think about it on the employer's end, why would they hire a high school graduate when there are thousands upon thousands of college grads looking for work as well? What can you POSSIBLY provide over a college grad?)

I work rn as SWE as a high school grad. And it takes a lot of fucking time and effort. Not something that's reasonable to expect a teenager to spend 6-8 hours a day programming when they have school the next day.

[spark cobalt]

If your motivation is just money, I'd just go to college.

[sour flint]

Thanks, I've been wondering if they had one. Where could I sign up for it?

[true harness]

idr

[sour flint]

ah

also, tell me if I have these right

so, to get an associate's degree you need at least 2 years.

Bachelor's is 4 years and Master's is 6

[true harness]

masters is 2 years, but you need a bachelor's first. you're right it's 6 if you had nothing, but the actual grad school part is 2

[sour flint]

oh okay, thanks

[true harness]

also to complicate things, some schools have programs that let you finish a master's in just 1 extra year by doing graduate courses in your senior year

[white relic]

The timelines are what most people do, the limiting factor is how quickly you can satisfy all the graduation requirements of your particular degree program

[zealous ruin]

@spark cobalt not money but practice, doing their work for 6-8 hours is more practice because if you don't work uunder a company you would get distracted

[spark cobalt]

You would get distracted.

Not me. I did the work.

[zealous ruin]

SWE? what's that

[spark cobalt]

I dropped games, anime, 95% of my social life, to just program. Pick or choose. If you did programming right out of high school, you make the same kind of sacrifices. You get no social life because everyone around you is at least 10 years older than you.

[zealous ruin]

hmm

[spark cobalt]

Software Engineer.

Do realize that the college life is a real thing. And it only feels so real when you're not a part of it.

[zealous ruin]

in which language or tech

yes i understood but i wanted to know even i took cs in my study so i would learn

[spark cobalt]

Like I said above, there's no specific language lol. What's more valuable is having the concepts behind programming in general. A language is just a means to get shit done.

[spark cobalt]

I would recommend this.

[zealous ruin]

you said you are an software engineer so i asked

[spark cobalt]

I can't really specify what I work on specifically since NDA. But I work in networking.

[zealous ruin]

NDA?

[spark cobalt]

Enough people know my LinkedIn, company I work for, on this server so

[spark cobalt]

Nondisclosure Agreement.

[sour flint]

Because, I'm a freshman at my highschool

And I'm just trying to get a grip on things

[true harness]

you're in the US, right? I don't think you said

[spark cobalt]

@zealous ruin Why do you want to skip college?

[zealous ruin]

i didn't want to

i just wanted to clarify things if some people like you guide me i wouldn't skip college i mean i would be aware

[lapis wind]

I mean in terms of languages to learn for easy employability then C# and Typescript are probably the go to

[spark cobalt]

Eh you implied that you get distracted easily. Better to go to college.

[zealous ruin]

thanks

[spark cobalt]

C# for what

[zealous ruin]

thanks

[lapis wind]

Literally anything that microsoft have written a library for. So basically CRUD website backends

[spark cobalt]

I rarely seen C# in job descriptions when I was applying.

[lapis wind]

I see wayyyyyyyy more c# and TS/JS jobs than i do python which are entry level.

[spark cobalt]

Entry level JS/TS makes sense. Idk about C#.

[lapis wind]

sure maybe I see a few python things which just happen to use Python as a glue. But yeah rare.

C# is great for companies and juniors because MS have done everything for you (which if you hate that, then yes it is absolutely soul sucking)

[spark cobalt]

Interesting

[zealous ruin]

waht about kotlin

[lapis wind]

Steps for making a website backend in C#, and these are the only steps ever ->

• Add ASP.NET
• Add Entity Framework
• Mash it together.

Done

[spark cobalt]

I've only seen Kotlin for like Android development.

[lapis wind]

it's definitely more prevalent there, but as a language it's pretty nice in general. But equally not as prevalent as JS and things.

[zealous ruin]

ping me because my pc is going to shut down I"lLL be back seconds later

[spark cobalt]

Yeah JS/TS is everywhere

[zealous ruin]

evil doggo laughs

[spark cobalt]

React in general is super beginner friendly too.

[zealous ruin]

meme sticker nice how can i get it?

[spark cobalt]

Nitro

[delicate bane]

C# is wildly popular if your company is an enterprise microsoft shop

[buoyant seal]

Where do u live, in US?

[spark cobalt]

Fuck MS

[delicate bane]

"excel is the dark matter of the corporate IT universe"

[noble oriole]

Hello everyone!
I am writing my cover letter for entry-level positions in Software Engineering, and I need help finding the right words to express that I am interested in best Software Engineering practices rather than just typing in mindless code, hoping it will pass the unit test.

How can I explain this in a sentence?

[vapid jay]

So for someone looking to make a fast career switch, would you recommend js html and css over python?

[mortal wedge]

Maybe I'm biased because of server, but I'd say python. It's just so easy to learn and the barrier of entry for programming in python is so low. It's so flexible too, so if you wanted to switch again at some point in the future, you wouldn't have to learn a new language again

[cosmic wraith]

Everyone, Hello

who know the freelancer site?

[spark cobalt]

Your project explain for you

[teal wren]

anyone here good at coding in python and awake?

[vapid jay]

I just started learning python not too long ago. I’ve wrapped the basics. print, input, type conversation, variables and string. What should i focus on next? Any tips ?

[smoky quest]

For your career? It depends on your goal. You can see some example on https://roadmap.sh/
Also if you are in highschool or college age, a CS degree is the most straightforward route with the most opportunities

[vapid jay]

Oh alright thanks!

[spark cobalt]

Division of labor is a thing. A company benefits more if people spent their time building specialties.

You don't need to learn a specific thing per se, but you need to learn something.

[vapid jay]

is machine learning is so difficult to learn?

[spark cobalt]

It's very deep mathematically.

[vapid jay]

i am good at python only so which field should i pursue for my future career? data science, machine learning or others?

[spark cobalt]

Python good to get knowledge on programming concepts. You can expand to things that are out of bounds of Python. What do you want to do?

[vapid jay]

i am confused tho i wanted to be a software developer but i know if u can able to generate skills in machine learning your salary will be so high than any other fields like data science and software developers, machine leaning is the highest paid job, but i am confused cuz its difficult to be master in machine learning

[spark cobalt]

Why not study a little machine learning? Andrew Ng's ML course on Coursera is a pretty nice introduction to it.

[vapid jay]

oh coursera is better than udemy?

[spark cobalt]

Probably wiser to judge the course itself instead of the website they're on. I've never used Udemy and only used Coursera once for this ML course so can't say much about it.

[vapid jay]

the andrew course is it free? its showing enroll for free

[spark cobalt]

Yes. If you want a certificate it's paid but all the learning materials is free.

Not the place

[vapid jay]

sorry

[vapid jay]

please can u send me the link of learning materials of abdrew course i cant find it

[spark cobalt]

https://www.coursera.org/learn/machine-learning

He touches a little on everything. Doesn't get super involved in any of the topics.

[vapid jay]

thank you so much

[vapid jay]

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLssT5z_DsK-h9vYZkQkYNWcItqhlRJLN

is it the same??? its avilable on yt

[spark cobalt]

Looks to be the same

[vapid jay]

damn okay hahah cuz ity was expensive its on yt i gonna try it thnak you once again

[warped dust]

Is there a channel where people are looking for work?

[dense mesa]

No

[cyan skiff]

we're talking like one in maths & cs with around 6 applied ML modules but thesis not in ML, and one master's in pure ML modules

[cyan skiff]

Hmmmm, what you're saying kinda makes sense but a master's at say, Cambridge, is just a year, PhD is 4 years. So would I necessarily need a PhD to get into DeepMind, for instance?

[buoyant seal]

!rule 9 <@&831776746206265384>
Recruitment is not approved at this server at all

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[lapis wind]

I am in the UK, which practically half of the programming done here is C# lol

[buoyant seal]

Close enough to US in IT sense

[spark cobalt]

Someone in the UK had these numbers (saw from another server, idk the source of these numbers)
Java: 9434
C#: 8958
Python: 17400
Javascript: 11240
Node: 2423
React: 6278
PHP: 2441

[lapis wind]

yeah idk if i'd trust those

[spark cobalt]

Regardless that is a lot of C#

[lapis wind]

python is definitely not bigger than JS or C#, unless they're including jobs which use a tiny bit of it as a glue language for scripts

[buoyant seal]

C# is just not the choice in not first world countries. Too much microsoft/windows tied. I would not have chosen it for this reason
I don't want to risk ever dealing with microsft windows servers. Too much expensive and no scalable solution. Definitely against modern DevOps infra
Surely it changed with .Net Core, but i am not sure how mature C# is for Linux
Anyway, ecosystem of C# for linux from first glance i suspect is not that good

[spark cobalt]

Yeah absolutely

[lapis wind]

Core is fine tbf, like it's as easy as java, you can just chuck it in a docker contain on some debian image and just works™️

But saying that they absolutely did do a bit of the old Python 2 ecosystem fracture between Framework and Core. However, it's not as bad as that because you basically never use any ecosystem except MS in c#

and I wish I was joking but unless it's like a CMS, 99% of the C# projects i've seen are basically just what MS offer and maintain

[buoyant seal]

There is already mature alternative for Linux backend, and a lot of developers, and one of hugest ecosystems. in Java xD Basically kind of same level as C# takes already in terms of code quality

[buoyant seal]

Well, that proves my fears of C#

[lapis wind]

yeah, but a lot of companies dont really care, at least not in the UK. Java gives you options as a developer, and options for your generic web backend from a company perspective sucks.

If you're hiring for a C# dev doing some web backend with core or framework or what ever, you know there is literally only one possible way to do that and with the same tools, so you don't need to worry about devs ramping up on unfamiliar frameworks, because it is literally just Entity Framework (ORM) and ASP.net

The ecosystem is absolutely better in Java, the problem is C# just doesn't care because the things it gets used most in, are just done for you by microsoft and anything beyond that is probably beyond the language

Imagine if C# was Python and Django, but Django was the only web framework available at all, every C# dev knows it.

Which if that's what you like then it's good, but if you hate that sort of same setup, code, frameworks, etc... then it's soul sucking

[buoyant seal]

I would not have chosen it as Software Architect anyway, because u know... it is easier to find Java devs in the world xD And i need DevOps/Cloud integrations for my backend

[lapis wind]

I think that depends on the country tbf. Although if you know Java you basically know c#

[buoyant seal]

lets just say straightly. f*** M$. And when u go for Java u can hire easier remote devs from other countries ;b IT market is quite flexible in borders

[lapis wind]

I mean I agree I hate C# as a language, tbf i equally hate Java. But I can't say they didn't do a great job on the runtime itself :P

[buoyant seal]

I actually very much like C#. I went into it during university after having two years of C++. It was huge relief working with C# after shooting into my own legs with memory pointers problems 😐
But i just can't choose it for the mentioned reasons.

[frigid cradle]

is there a starter channel

[balmy mural]

For normal dev jobs, I'd say over 80% of the jobs I've seen are C# and .NET jobs over here in South Africa

[buoyant seal]

Ergh, even in poor countries C# is okay for... Desktop dev i think
Windows dominates everywhere for regular desktop users

I disagree with C# usage for web dev in poor countries (or for that matter in all countries preferably it should not be used for web dev xD)

[balmy mural]

Well, that's what the choice has landed on over here for some reason, at least, from my experience of looking at job descriptions recently

[clear loom]

.Net is very popular in India as well, Java/Spring and C#/.Net are "industry standard" here

[balmy mural]

I think the reason it is so popular here is exactly why Darkwind advises against it. It's microsoft/windows tied, so everything already exists for you, you just have to piece it together in a way that works. That means a new dev can get on board much faster if they already have experience in C#, which majority have since that's what most uni's here pick to start you off with due to job marketing focussing on it

[manic peak]

You can slowly move from learning the syntax to learning programming. Program construction, Splitting a problem into tiny modules, Building projects, learning about software engineering etc.,

[delicate bane]

do you think this makes it harder to negotiate for higher pay if you work primarily with C# vs. another language then or no?

[balmy mural]

I'm not sure. I've only started applying recently for junior positions and I'm actually shooting more for a position that'll lead to DS/MLE in the future. Although I'm also applying at some better known companies for developer positions. I think a junior would probably be able to negotiate for a higher starting salary here if they already primarily work in C#

I don't think you'd be able to negotiate a lot though, and I doubt it makes a difference past junior level

[true harness]

logically speaking, wouldn't it make more of a difference? the larger your base salary, if you keep asking for like a 5% increase, the concrete "wiggle room" is larger

[near remnant]

i finished all my tasks from JIRA and I spent the whole week with studying and reading books or just doing nothing lmao. so this is how I booked my time on JIRA. do you guys think i should tell my boss about this or no?

[balmy mural]

Good point, I'm not thinking longer term at all since I likely won't stay at my first company for a long time. But bigger base salary will give that wiggle room in the future

[near ocean]

Ask for more work, but tbh your boss should know youre slacking just by the status of your board

[near remnant]

I did ask for more work

Slacking? What do you mean?

[near ocean]

Youre not doing work on company time, you said youre reading "or just doing nothing"

[near remnant]

Yeah, because I've completed all my jira tickets

[near ocean]

Ask for more then

[near remnant]

Bro I said I asked for more but there is no more work until next sprint

[near ocean]

You didnt say that lmao are you even reading the things youre writing
You said you book your time on Jira to read/study/slack around

[near remnant]

oh sorry then

[true harness]

help your coworkers

[near ocean]

If you dont have any more tickets for the sprint let your boss know and you'll be assigned more work

[near remnant]

yeah I did bro and my boss told me to just do something

[true harness]

but you said you didn't tell your boss ?

[near remnant]

there are multiple bosses

[near ocean]

Go to your line manager and tell them, they are your boss

If they say you can chill, that's fine but i doubt they will
Theres ALWAYS a backlog

[near remnant]

anyways, im not slacking, how could I slack if I finished all my tickets way before deadline and even asked for more work...this server bruh

always so negative, making people sad

[near ocean]

"or just doing nothing lmao"

Why are you here my guy

[near remnant]

what is wrong with you bro?

dumbass

this guy been here all the time and always being negative as fuck to everyone

[true harness]

i don't this issue is that difficult. if you don't want to do more work (or maybe there truly is no more work), as long as you're doing your tasks, that's fine

[near ocean]

My bad, i'll go away