career-advice

[halcyon hinge]

go to help channels

[karmic merlin]

This is irrelevant to this channel. We also won't do assignments for you here.

[jade rampart]

is it realistic to want to learn AI, HTML CSS backend with python, and some javascript also for the website?

[buoyant seal]

in unexpected maneuver mother decided in 47 age to go into front/back/qa direction
as i can see, she is going for secondary higher education thing? and it would be probably even government licensed.
her main education is economist, and she has experience as a small business... owner. well, besides that she worked as economist, and even worked in medical domain.
she is kind of smart enough to change directions and learning things.... already 3 times completely changed her... main pursued career.
do you think better to support here in this direction and encouraging to go forward?

I am kind of afraid that in 47 age, in her health state, it would be a bit difficult change, a bit hard to find work in this area with her age
although in QA there supposed to be low barrier to enter

[gritty rivet]

There are certainly people who do all that. Realistic for you depends on background, motivation, time, persistence, etc. All you can do is come up with a learning plan and set up goals on a timeline that works for you, then start working on it and reevaluate as needed. If you need to recalibrate your goals based on experience as you move forward, you can do that

[jade rampart]

The Website part (HTML CSS JavaScript) would be for personal projects, not to work in a firm. Thanks for your answer 🙏

[gritty rivet]

I think it's all about a) level of motivation and b) pay requirements. If she's really determined to do.this and willing to start at the bottom, it's possible. I am in my 40s and have just transitioned to dev work in the last year, did not feel that age in itself put me at a disadvantage

[buoyant seal]

I guess so. Then all is left to support her

[vale orbit]

Sometimes it's unrelated like I live in Istanbul and in many cases people require you to be in their area of company, like US jobs even tho it's a Virtual assistance that can be done online
or I search for Virtual assistant and I see other jobs that are not virtual assistant at top results

[delicate bane]

i think thats good DW. maybe she was influenced by you and your brother indirectly

[buoyant seal]

i think she did not realize i am actually backend developer xD
kind of thinking if to tell her or not

[delicate bane]

haha up to you. but thats funny 💀

[smoky quest]

yeah, companies still need to pay taxes and a few other legal items for the country of residence of their employees.
Not all of them are setup for that.

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
This is a channel for discussion, not recruitment

[delicate bane]

dang this blew my mind. also sad at the same time. from an MLE i follow on LI

[ivory sluice]

well yes your chem degree doesn't count. engineering, lawyer or doctor only!

edit: this is in jest

US has outsourced a lot of tech jobs overseas as well though. is it less compared to the jobs this person is describing?

what is MLE?

[delicate bane]

seems so. the comments are full of traditional STEM degree holders (besides CS/IT) talking about the same experience + transitioning to tech

[ivory sluice]

also how does one take three years of chemistry in high school!

[delicate bane]

ML Engineer

[delicate bane]

ill just DM you the link to the original post. it goes into much more detail and everything lol

[honest pivot]

The US actually has more STEM jobs than anywhere else, and higher paying. Just not in chemistry, I guess. The advice to 'Get any STEM degree and walk into a high-paying job' is unfortunately almost as dated as the old advice to 'Get any degree and walk into a high-paying job'.

[sick remnant]

what jobs require coding?

[thorny arch]

any idea what i have to know for me to get an entry level job at programming

[round leaf]

Hey guys, how does progression in the tech industry work?
I know python, a bit of JS and web dev. Got my first job yesterday (yey), and they're making me take a Java course.
Is it always like that? Each company with their own stack that i'll have to learn from scratch?

[thorny arch]

i have no idea on progression, but still congrats on getting your job🥹

[lapis wind]

Realistically kinda depends on the job.

If they use a lot of Java, then that seems pretty normal.

[thorny arch]

can anyone please tell me🙂?im learning random things and i dont know if they will help me?

[round leaf]

Thanks, maybe i can help you with the entry level job question:

• Learn how to program in that language
• Learn related frameworks and libraries (flask/django for web, pandas/numpy for data)
• Learn algorithms (just know what they are)
• Learn fancy tech jargon (Async, parallel programming, scrum, lean, microservices, all that jazz)
• Learn git/github
• Command line won't hurt you either

[round leaf]

Kind of feels like i'll always be a junior that way, but i get it

[thorny arch]

Thanks :)))

[near ocean]

You wont
Learning new syntax might be a constant in your life but as you work you'll start seeing patterns in architecture, the kinds of issues that show up, the solutions for these issues
Debugging and troubleshooting will become easier

[round leaf]

I see, thank you very much. It's a start of a journey for me

[buoyant seal]

The idea is simple. Compile answers from other devs and from job requirements what is needed to be known for certain job position/job rank: learn it, practice, achieve it. Get your salary reevaluated or seek new job where you would get it.

[buoyant seal]

within realm of web dev related to python, the road can take different directions
https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/blob/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
backend dev needs to learn at least software engineering skills(code architecture for middle level) + other backend related stuff. Usually for senior positions it is assumed to learn some of analyst stuff like System Design.
Backend dev can become potentially devops engineers/cloud architect person/software architect(or other analyst roles)/going into cyber secutity/dev sec ops/going into management positions/going into data engineering/going into full stack development/going into even data science and machine learning

It kinds of depends on person interests. Not everyone likes to be a manager, so going into management is not obligatory.
not everyone likes frontend, so becoming full stack dev is not obligatory too
there is always multiple choice of stuff where to develop youself further 🙂
backend stuff is infinity enough in its size as it is already. And just reaching its senior rank of knowledge is already a challenge people not always reach in their whole careers.

https://www.fullstackpython.com/ this web site kind of shows how many different stuff an average backend dev can learn and encounter

there is always a certain a choice between becoming l shaped learner, T shaped, going for two directions deeper, or even just having yourself spreaded across a lot of things
Due to limits of human lifetime and limit to encountering different learning experiences, usually going for something besides one deep specialization and having some little knowledge in other things, makes not a lot of sense

[trail arrow]

it would be crazy if someone made something that would just attach to yout bones and vibrate them, but people who would use it would be kinda crazy too

[unkempt zephyr]

Hi everyone. I have a question regarding finding a job and python. I have created a database with a collection of email and I wrote a program that send them when I run the script

 for company in list_of_contacts:
        # get the email adress
        email = company['email']
    id = company['_id']
    emailService.send_email_with_html_and_var_and_listattch(email, subject, date_time, html_loc, list_attch)
    mark_as_sent(id)

would you think it will be a good idea to send to all of them in one shot or to continue and send each of them seperately? I ask since google can block me one day of another if he will find that there is a pattern I guess (sending email evey 0.5 second)

[gilded valley]

you are sending spam mail, chances are you're going to get registered as spam. Either way, this is really only tangentially related to careers and probably breaks rule 5. Try a help channel or #python-discussion

[unkempt zephyr]

if I won't find a career a cause of this. I found it really related so I don't agree with you

[near ocean]

What is the question here? Whether spamming people is going to get you a job? The answer is no and also maybe touch grass wtf why would you ever think this is a good idea

[gilded valley]

the question seems to be "how best do I spam people and not get caught by spam filters"

[prime sorrel]

Guys
I am TRASH at Maths and Physics
but, I am quite good in Computer Science
I want to pursue a career in the IT industry but without Maths is quite hard
What do I do??

[unkempt zephyr]

it's not spamming - it's automatization with python but I mis formated the question. I don't care if gmail flag me. I just wanted to know if you were in the place of the person who recrute - will you see it negativly if you were part of a mailing group

[near ocean]

If i was a recruiter i probably wouldnt even see your email cause it's going straight to my spam

[unkempt zephyr]

thnx

[gilded valley]

either there's few enough companies that you could just do this manually, or there's enough companies that it's obviously spam.

[delicate bane]

even if it got through the filter, i would probably blacklist you if i knew this was the case

[verbal dirge]

Guys, How can I get an internship. I have decent amount of experience working with Python. I know django, flask and can work with react (+ Tailwind) for front end. I am also into ML and Data Science and can do things ranging from training to deployment. I am currently studying Computer science and Engineering in Coimbatore, India

[vapid jay]

how do you not get drowned in offers with skills like that? is it really that competitive around the world? here (germany) you barely can finish the sentence "i did a programming once, my 15 lines of code only had 35 errors" and you got a decent paying job 😕

[tender osprey]

I am trying to make a small business mail server on windows server, but when i check reverse DNS, it returns ISP DNS instead of my Server/Domain, any configuration i’ve missed ?

Software: hMail server

Is there a better channel where i can send this?

[balmy mural]

If this is true I'm trying to emigrate to the wrong country right now 😂

[near ocean]

They probably dont have any work experience with these technologies, making it harder to get offers

Experience should mean work experience
I also fiddle with random things in my spare time but i wouldnt exactly call myself "experienced" in them

[exotic vapor]

then how do we get the experience ??

[near ocean]

You apply to entry level and junior positions

[lapis wind]

I think it's hard to really use hobby stuff a actual experience unless it becomes some fairly substantial open source thing

[vapid jay]

I might get my hands on the Sony MDR M1ST, but they are only in Japan as of right now.

[delicate bane]

internships and apprenticeships and similar count

[gritty rivet]

#networks

[tropic niche]

Hi there I come up with a question regarding positions in USA/CA. I've seen a lot offerings for juniors with +3 years of proven experience or internships with +2 years of proven experience. Also a must have are degrees. I'm a self-taught and at the time of my relocation I'm gonna have around 3-4 years of professional experience. Will I still be considered junior there? 😄

[gritty rivet]

No one can say how any specific company will look at your resume but in general I would think yes, probably

[delicate bane]

like dowcet said, probably

[mortal wedge]

So, our company needs a specific role, badly. We've been interviewing people for a good half a year trying to find the perfect fit. We finally found someone we all like, but he wants to chat with me one on one about my experiences with the company before signing on.

I'm TERRIFIED. I want to be honest, but I don't want to blow this. It's a lot of pressure. I'm not sure why he wants my input specifically as opposed to someone else on the panel.

Any tips/suggestions/advice?

[delicate bane]

maybe he thinks youre most likely to give an honest opinion about the company?

[astral ermine]

Just going off of what you've given, I'd say to highlight how the role is aligned with that persons interests, allows for growth and impact, etc. Although it's hard to give good input, that person could really have any reason for wanting to talk to you specifically.

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, the one thing I know for sure is to be honest. One of his duties will be to be a member on the project team I lead. I don't want someone who will later resent me. He's also going to be moving across the country for the position, which is a huge step. Definitely owe it to the guy to be honest.

[astral ermine]

Maybe they want some reassurance that they will receive the support they want.

To move across the country, personally I'd want to know I'll be able to grow in that role.

[delicate bane]

oh yeah i would def want to talk to you if thats the case and get to know you better if im doing such a big move

[mortal wedge]

Hopefully it's stuff like that, I can definitely provide answers/feedback. Just worried he might ask me questions I can't answer or something, lol

[honest pivot]

On the flip side, I have to say this "reverse interview" idea is pretty brilliant, and you should try it out next time you're interviewing with anyone. I actually used it with the company where I'll be starting soon, I asked them for an extra meeting to talk to some team members. (Did this after they made a verbal offer.)

[tropic niche]

@delicate bane @gritty rivet Yeah that's kinda funny because in that moment you're independent backend developer capable of delivering full solutions and there won't be much difference, yet you're considered junior. Weird but whatever it takes. 😄 Probably would be better to switch into AI / Quantum as I would be considered junior for both then.

[honest pivot]

Yeah, in my situation I'd say it is similar. I am making a huge step, and I wanted to make sure I would like where I was going. You should expect that he'll ask questions aimed at figuring out if there are any red flags.

[neon marsh]

Is it good to put passive income as work experience? Mainly personal projects that makes money.

[summer roost]

"passive income" usually means that you are doing no additional work, but are continuing to make money. So no, it would be very misleading to list time spent not working as work experience

[near ocean]

But isnt a project thats generating income worth mentioning? They obviously did something right

[gritty rivet]

I would definitely list the projects if they demonstrate relevant skills, the income streams you made from those projects isn't really relevant

[lucid totem]

Well, what linux cert is the best. By best I mean the hardest to obtain and will hold more value

[gritty rivet]

Unless maybe you want to mention that you wrote a program that generated $x in sales

[gritty rivet]

The Red Hat certs are the most well regarded

Otherwise there's CompTIA Linux+, which is distro neutral but way less impressive

[lucid totem]

Linux+ is not impressive for me. Maybe the rhcsa is a good pick?

[mortal wedge]

I think it's definitely worth mentioning. I think what @summer roost is getting at is like... if you made an app and have done no additional development on it, but it's still selling in the app store, do you say that you are working during that time?

[gritty rivet]

Right, they have another one that's more advanced too, rhce or something

[lucid totem]

Ah ok, thank you

[lilac smelt]

hello people, im pivoting from my career as an environmental scientist to hopefully a flutter app developer. just thought i would introduce myself and curious to know if there are others here who have made a similar pivot and how its working out for them 😄

[safe shadow]

Can i get a python backend developer job as a 16 year old

[lilac smelt]

from what i understand so far, if you can do the work you can most probably be hired, although not sure if under 18

[gritty rivet]

Very unlikely. You're best bet is to get a university degree if at all possible

[delicate bane]

i think godly was just saying you should just list it under "projects" and not "work experience" if this is the case

[leaden jasper]

I interviewed for a place that was very eager to hire me about 2 months back. The biggest thing for me was people just generally being chill and liking their workplace / their work. That comes off well if you're able to talk a bit candidly and in a relaxed fashion. I know that made a big impact for me in determining culture fit.

[mortal wedge]

Good advice! I'm naturally very down to earth so that was the energy I was inclined to bring, but wasn't sure if that was the right tone. I probably should just not worry too much about this, haha. But man, we've been trying to fill this role all year.

[mortal wedge]

You may get an internship, but at least in the US the job market is fairly competitive. The standard python developer career path has a software engineering college degree. If someone doesn't have a college degree, them getting a job is an exception rather than a normal occurrence. Even so, the people who get hired as software developers usually have SOME degree, even if it's not in STEM or Software Engineering. I do know some people who went the boot camp route, but they had to hustle to make it.

[summer roost]

Internships for high school students are much, much, much rarer than internships for college students, from what I've seen.

[mortal wedge]

Agreed

[near remnant]

Hey everyone,
I will start my new job next week on Monday and on Wednesday they already invited me to a whole-day team building event session. It's a remote job and I'm really far away from the city where the company is located. So I would have to commute like 8 hours in total maybe a bit more (4 there and 4 back home). Do you guys think it would be a bad idea to not go? They said it is fine and they understand if I don't want to go since I live very far away but would be a good opportunity to meet the others. I'm clueless.:/ They are really good people and HR is fine with it if I don't go, I'm just not sure if this would create a "bad impression" of me. Also, I would have to wake up at 4 to actually get there right on time:S What do you guys think? I thought about renting a place on Tuesday night but then it would be just too much effort and money...

[summer roost]

I'd say you should go. If it's as inconvenient to get there as you say, then presumably you won't get many chances to meet up with your whole team, which means it would be a bad idea to skip one of the few chances you'll get to form face to face relationships with these people and have the chance to talk about stuff other than work.

[near remnant]

Thanks, I will sleep on it for sure

[mortal wedge]

Update: It went really well! He was mostly interested in work culture stuff and getting the down low on the person who would be his boss. I actually have had a lot of conflict with the guy in the past, but think I threaded the needle of being honest without dunking on the guy. He said that he's leaning towards joining the company though!

[mortal wedge]

I'll echo what has been said and say that you should go. I know it sucks but it will help with your visibility within the organization and generally companies want even their remote employees to show up every now and then.

[woeful spruce]

No. How can someone hire a teenager who does school full time?

Developer is typically a full time job. I mean, maybe you could get a gig on Upwork or something, but most would view you as too young.

Be patient, and you should be able to land a role in about 5 years or so.

[gritty rivet]

I don't know if things are different in your country but I would expect any decent company to pay for transportation and hotel in this situation

If it is even vaguely important to them, they should at least cover partially

[red shoal]

hallo why my laptop cant use the python

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
This is the wrong channel as it's bout #career-advice . You should check out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[vapid jay]

Write a function suppair which takes as argument a list of integers and removes all even elements from it. For example, if we had a list l = [2, 6, 5, 8, 9], then after calling suppair(l), which returns nothing and displays nothing, the value of l must become [5 , 9].

Hint: you can modify the list directly using the pop method for a list (l.pop(i) deletes the element of index i in the list l). Attention, it must be taken into account that this method also changes the indices of the elements that come after!

Hint: for another way of doing things, you can also create a new list which retains all the odd elements of the list as parameters, then empty the original list and fill it with the elements kept in the new list.

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
This is the wrong channel as it's bout #career-advice . You should check out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[vapid jay]

Hello, I wanted to ask which certification I better for someone with a computer science degree. CCNA or comptia network+ and is it advisable to have a comptia security+ and an ethical hacking certification?

[vapid jay]

partially due to covid everything that was somewhat more "traditional" (germany is technologically somewhat conservative, probably because 95% of the population is old people) went digital and now people need to develop and manage it. software-devs, admins, it-techs, etc are needed everywhere. right now as an it-employee you have the choice. middle-class companies will compete to employ you 😉
obviously that isn't true for big corporations, they do business as usual, and that's where the biggest paychecks are but there are a lot of middle class companies that might not be able to drown you in money but will gladly hire you for a decent wage (and you do not have to deal with corporate bullshit and 84 layers of point- and clueless management).

[near remnant]

They unfortunately don't.

[spare yacht]

do software engineers really have to work 8 hours (productive) a day , or it depends on company to company

[digital fjord]

I doubt many people can productively write code for 8 hours straight unless it's just writing out some boilerplate.

[near ocean]

Nobody works 8 full hours a day no matter what they do

[vapid jay]

i would say that depends on the company, the geological location, the work culture at that location, etc.

[balmy mural]

Ah, I'd have to target the higher paychecks though. Need a minimum gross annual salary of 43992 euros to apply for the relevant visas in Germany

[magic sluice]

Lol, i work 8 hours every wed, thur and friday and i dont get paid.

[near ocean]

You mean "you're at work" for 8 hours a day

[magic sluice]

yeah. need a pic?

[near ocean]

Being at work doesnt mean you are productive at work for 8 solid hours

I'm technically at work right now

[near ocean]

You dont look very productive taking pictures and chatting on discord, so that kind of proves my point

[magic sluice]

I'm coding. can a man get a break? i don't even get paid sooo yeah.

[near ocean]

Ok? I dont understand, are you disagreeing with what i've said so far?

[magic sluice]

Yes, I don't get paid and I'm here for 8 hours. So i don't have to be fully focused and bust my balls.

[near ocean]

Good for you, are you disagreeing with this statement?

[vapid jay]

Hey guys I’ve built a 5 digits cracker software

[magic sluice]

No, i saw that and it made me laugh because most people get paid and don't work for 8 hours and me... i work for 8 hours without being paid.

[near ocean]

Thats sounds like a you problem tbh maybe ask for compensation?

[honest pivot]

Why are you working without getting paid?

[magic sluice]

That's not how it works in Germany. I'm a 12 grade student and if i want to got to college i must complete 800hours of internship in a desired field.

[near ocean]

Im doubtful of anywhere in the EU having unpaid internships, let alone Germany

[honest pivot]

State mandated unpaid internships are beginning to make me very angry

[magic sluice]

oh you think Germany pay good? a 50000euro per year for a Security engineer sounds fair to you? in the U.S a security engineer makes more than 100000k per year

[near ocean]

Thats not anywhere near what I wrote...

[magic sluice]

So if they pay so little for a security engineer job what makes you think they will pay an intern

[honest pivot]

The prevalence of mandatory unpaid internships is part of the reason the pay for full time work is so terrible.

[near ocean]

Is 50k euro little now?

[magic sluice]

Yeah

[honest pivot]

It's less than I made in my first job after getting a bachelor's degree, even ignoring inflation

[magic sluice]

Imagine getting 50k a year then paying 40% of that in taxes. That's how missed up our pay system is!

[near ocean]

Its less than what I make but i still wouldnt call it little lol
How much does the average german pay in rent, food, transport? And what's the average salary in germany

[magic sluice]

31.671,50 € this is that 50k after taxes.

btw it'll cost 2000euro to get a license here.

[vapid jay]

yeah, but needs to pay three times as much for the same if not worse standard of living.

[near ocean]

Low salary isnt the problem here, the problem is unpaid mandatory internships

[digital fjord]

As I understand it, the idea is that the students get practical experience in their chosen field, which is something you can't really teach. Though as it was described to me, it is meant to be an internship, not volunteering, so you shouldn't be just straight up doing work. But well, we had it mentioned in one class and then never again.

[magic sluice]

Still i would choose the U.S over Germany. here you will feel like a robot or a slave for the government. there's way too many stuff that are mandatory that don't make sense a part from the tax you give to the government you have to pay another taxes for 5 classes( job insurance , healthcare , retirement and such) the think is that these insurances should not be mandatory.

[vapid jay]

oh yeah, i get that. most of my friends in IT had to work for a frickin year for free during uni. to some degree even if the company would pay them a bit the students would opt out because they would stop qualifying for their government loans (bafög) if they earned anything.

and, yeah, it is supposed to be an internship. the company should be teaching you. yet, especially in IT, where people are often self-taught to some degree many if not most companies put them right to work, which is not the point of an internship. you could theoretically complain to an official office but then you might lose your internship and you need that to get your diploma.

[magic sluice]

lol stuff like bafög and Hartz4 are the reasons why we get paid so little and the tax is so high.

The stupid thing about Hartz4 is that it's acually made for refugees, to help em get on their feet. But i hate in when germans get paid from hartz4 that's really stupid. it's like you work and pay taxes so that someone who didnt study well can get money.

[vapid jay]

i have worked in the us for a couple of years. i really do like my government mandated health insurance here. i earned more than twice in the us as i do here but in the end i had less than half disposable income as i do here. rents were insane, i had to pay insane amounts for health insurance and then pay even more if i actually used that health insurance. i was used to going to the doctor for whatever, back pain, having the shits after eating spicy food or even the sniffles. that would have bankrupted me in the us. a high standard of living here is just so much cheaper.

[magic sluice]

Yeah I know Its a good thing but it shouldn't be mandatory there's something called freedom of choice. if someone don't want it, don't force em. Anyway gtg, got new stuff to do..

[delicate bane]

that sounds about right. sad but true

[magic sluice]

Btw anyone know how i cant Transpose a list?

[gilded valley]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[near remnant]

I've been stressing out because I can't decide on this 💀

[near ocean]

You already got advice

[near remnant]

Some ppl say I should not go because the company is okay with it. Some ppl say I should go to make a good impression.

Damn, I can never make decisions...

[near ocean]

Everyone here said you should go, who are these "some ppl" that say you shouldnt

[near remnant]

Other servers + some friends

[near remnant]

You are fine with waking up at 4 and travelling with train 3-4 hours just to get there on time?

[near ocean]

Its a one time thing, no need to be such a drama queen
Go meet your colleagues

[near remnant]

This dude 💀😂

[near ocean]

if you dont want to then dont go, youre just looking for someone to tell you its okay not to

[near remnant]

I realized a pattern with you. You tend to be really harsh to everyone here. Is this make you happy? Or are you just bored?

[near ocean]

You also have a pattern you know
You change your backstory like people change underwear
You repeatedly ask the same set of questions even after multiple people weigh in
Just why?

[near remnant]

I could ask the same question, just why? You are always really negative to everyone here. No offense tho.

[near ocean]

How was I negative? You're making such a big deal out of a one time event that only makes you look better

[near remnant]

Im not talking about only this case, but nevermind. Sorry if I don't want to commute 4 hours from 4AM on my own costs. Im too dumb:/

[true harness]

i mean, if you don't want to go, then don't go. what's the problem lol

[magic sluice]

"Like people change underwear" 😂

[near remnant]

Wow, thats so funny 🙂 he can call me a "drama queen" and being negative 0-24,thats okay.

[near ocean]

You already set your mind to not going so whats the point of asking again other to get an excuse from other people?

[magic sluice]

@near remnant I don't know what's going on. I just really find it funny how he putted that. So that doesn't mean I'm laughing at you.

[leaden knot]

!rule 1

[inner wren]

Rules

1. Follow the Python Discord Code of Conduct.

[vapid jay]

if it's not mandatory, services cannot be budgeted, people will opt out to save a buck (and regret it horribly when they actually get sick but hey, thinking further into the future than 24h isn't exactly a strong skill in homo sapiens), the quality will go down and whoever wants decent quality will pay out of their ass for private insurance and those that don't have any will be begging for help when it comes to the worst. and we'll be paying double for those cases because we won't just let them die.
you can get private insurance here, you just can't not have insurance because then the system collapses.
but this is getting offtopic. tl:dr : any IT-Worker, be it programming or otherwise will find a job in germany easily but it's less money/luxury and more security/basic life comfort

[delicate bane]

which cities in germany are best (to work in). asking for a friend

[sinful berry]

sup

[magic sluice]

Frankfurt or München

[delicate bane]

hi you are probably looking for #python-discussion

[magic sluice]

Working in Frankfurt is like working in new york, but frankfurt is also a very clean city.

[delicate bane]

what about berlin? i see a lot of the types of positions im interested in posted over there

[magic sluice]

Noooo, Berlin is so packed and the city feels very boring. the buidlings also suck in berlin. every major german company is in Frankfurt specially the IT stuff

[delicate bane]

all the types of positions im interested in are either in munich or berlin. im not interested in the typical IT company

[magic sluice]

then munich

[delicate bane]

disclaimer: these are not traditional software dev positions btw

[magic sluice]

what is the position?

[teal zenith]

snel

[near remnant]

I was able to talk to the company so I can go later for the team building event.

[static saffron]

uh so i just got my IDF assignment, im assigned to the gamma-cyber unit and well lets just say my "cyber" knowledge is limited to discord... anyone got some tips or courses to help boost me?

[smoky quest]

What types of positions are we talking about?

[near remnant]

What do you guys think about ServiceNow?

[woeful spruce]

Hate it

[near remnant]

Is doing "classic" software development better than doing ServiceNow?

[woeful spruce]

I do not know really. I just know that I disliked it as a user. We use Fresh Service now.

[buoyant seal]

what is classic and what is ServiceNow

[lapis wind]

and how do they link with each other sorry?

[near remnant]

By classic I mean for example python developer

[buoyant seal]

okay, what is ServiceNow

[lapis wind]

SerivceNow seems very much just like a SAAS system and general admin management service, rather than actually doing code? The only thing I saw was their DevOps stuff.

[buoyant seal]

ServiceNow is a ticketing system for resolving everyday internal IT issues. Its unique delivery model offers a ton of benefits, the majority of which involve saving resources and streamlining solutions delivery. It is an ITSM system which handles all aspects of IT

So ServiceNow is just task management system for SysAdmin line of duties

[crisp stream]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[buoyant seal]

@near remnant not really seeing how you can compare task management system with regular software development. Both things resolve different sets of problems.

[near remnant]

Indeed

[buoyant seal]

<@&831776746206265384> lets delete it. P.S. thanks.

[neat grove]

@celest lotus No recruiting, read the channel topic

[delicate bane]

ugh recursive now that you asked, i feel obligated to answer

[delicate bane]

oops have to run to a meeting

[near remnant]

Bruh

[summer roost]

You're talking about compulsory military service? I'd expect them to provide you with whatever training they need you to have.

This channel's topic is jobs and careers.

It's off topic

[peak halo]

please post memes on r/ProgrammerHumor, or something like that. this server isn't the place.

[verbal dirge]

https://github.com/Siddhesh-Agarwal

Anything available?

[gritty rivet]

!rules 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[gritty rivet]

This is not a job board if that's what you're asking for.

[jolly leaf]

Hi, I’m doing a degree in software engineering and was wondering if it would be if any advantage to take a second degree in mathematics? Or generally jobs don’t care about math that much?

[summer roost]

software engineering degrees tend to be a bit less theoretical and a bit more practical than computer science degrees, from what I've heard. So, a second degree in a more theoretical area might help assure employers that you do have a solid theoretical grounding, perhaps

I don't think it's in any way necessary, but it probably couldn't hurt.

[jolly leaf]

Yeah that’s true. The way my degree actually works is a computer science honours degree. So I end up taking every class in the normal cs degree. And then I take an extra 4 classes in software engineering. But when I read online everyone is like it’s pointless then I talk to some engineers they say it’s helpful 😂

[summer roost]

well, I doubt it hurts. I think it shows initiative and motivation. It might be nice to have, but a CS honours degree is already plenty impressive

[long adder]

Discrete math would likely be very helpful, as would linear algebra and even differential equations... But now I'm talking as an engineer lol

[true harness]

those are all covered in a CS degree already

[jolly leaf]

Yeah so I’ve taken linear algebra 1 linear algebra 2 and then graph theory, ring theory, numerical analysis 1 and 2 then calculus 1 and 2, vector calculus 1 and 2

[long adder]

Sweet, I wouldn't know what math is included in a CS degree, I'm an engineer lol

[jolly leaf]

Oh cs requires calc 1 calc 2 calc 3, linear algebra 1, 2. Numerical analysis 1 and probability proof theory for stats for my school

[long adder]

Might not be offered at your school but I personally find Geometric Algebra an awesome field of study.

[jolly leaf]

I actually have no idea if they offer it or not

[summer roost]

not always. My CS degree didn't include differential equations or discrete math.

(some tracts did, but not the tracts I took)

[true harness]

yeah, maybe not diffeq, but probably discrete math. that would be in the form of dsa classes, or something like "math for computing".

[jolly leaf]

So like my current class called mathematical logic and computing ?

[true harness]

probably

[jolly leaf]

Only a week in but basically just went over truth tables and proofs not sure what else we go into

[dusk niche]

What useful things could I collect for my resume/profile if I'm not planning on getting a coding degree, and still seem palatable to employers?

[summer roost]

if you want to get a coding job, why don't you plan to get a coding degree?

[long adder]

Anything that shows you can follow through on a large scale project looks good. Showing that you understand modern best practices will help too

[jolly leaf]

I know someone who is trying to go do the same code without a degree and he is finding it very very challenging to have anyone take him on at anything more than entry

So he is now taking a bunch of online certificates

[patent grove]

what are some good negotiation tactics when they pull u into a call

[summer roost]

what sort of experience do you have? Do you have any leverage? Any competing offers?

[vapid jay]

can somebody learn me codes

[peak halo]

only you can learn yourself some codes. but people can help you along your way.

[vapid jay]

that would help

[delicate bane]

why should they take him on at a level higher than entry-level if he has no previous job experience nor degree?

[vapid jay]

Same question

[patent grove]

sstraight out of college. should i lie and say i do?

[balmy spade]

You should not lie. It will only harm your situation.

[true harness]

you can use statistical evidence about salaries in your area for similar jobs, but I think this would only work if you're being offered less than the median or mean or something, unless you can demonstrate you're worth more somehow

[summer roost]

yeah, without any actual leverage, that's probably the most you could do.

in terms of understanding the offer, you'll want to ask about number of paid days off, information on their insurance plans (at least in the US), whether there are any bonuses and what form they're in if so (cash, stock, options, etc), and what sort of retirement plan they have. It would also help you to know how they conduct reviews, and when your compensation might first be adjusted.

if you're not happy with the offer, you can try to talk them up a bit, but it's unlikely they'd go up more than maybe 3% for someone with no previous experience - it's unlikely that they're having trouble filling the position, and you likely don't have very much leverage.

[patent grove]

the thing is i started as an intern, did 9 months part time, and now im going to get my full time offer. i should probably mention how i know the company very well and things like this?

[summer roost]

don't you think they'd have taken that into consideration before deciding how much to offer you?

I know that all of the people hired right out of college by my first company after college made either $83.5k or $80.5k, depending on whether they had previously interned with the company or not.

(unrelated to your question, it's a good idea to ask other people with around your level of experience what they're getting paid, to give yourself an idea of whether you're being underpaid or not)

[patent grove]

this is a great idea thanks

[patent grove]

its a data engineer I position in the bay area, so im not sure if you have any sources but do you know a range on hm average is?

[summer roost]

I don't - not my part of the country nor my field. I'd check Glassdoor as a starting point. Any of your friends from college get an offer yet?

Glassdoor says the median for a data engineer with 0-1 years of experience in SF is $126.5k

seems a bit high to me - but not my location, nor my field, so I can't doubt it too much.

[patent grove]

nope not yet in the bay area

idk how accurate glassdoor is tho

[summer roost]

"somewhat". It gives you a jumping off point, at least.

BLS statistics would be more reliable, but they're nowhere near as granular - you can't get numbers for entry level, or for data engineer vs software engineer

entry level being over $100k in the Bay Area doesn't surprise me at all, though.

[rugged tundra]

howdy, there is a junior python/javascript position advertised that I would like to apply for, I have never worked as a developer but have been learning every day for approx 5-6 months. I am interested in applying for this position as it's advertised as a training position and specifically mentions that it's suited for someone who wants to learn and only lists basic python and javascript experience, of which I have both.

I'm just not sure if I should put as my title on the resume, since I'm obviously not going to put electrician. I have also seen a lot of people across various platforms (even courses I have done) say to avoid using "junior" in the title, but this position is advertised as junior. Just wanted to get some opinions. Thanks!

[patent grove]

its kind of weird, the company is located in miami but im going to be working remotely. its a fortune 500 company and they told me that they would be paying based off of location. so idk if im going to get "true bay area pay "

[summer roost]

That most likely means they've figured out what they would pay someone in Miami for the job, and they're scaling that up by the difference in cost of living between the two cities

You'll see when you get the offer, though.

[summer roost]

Can you explain what you mean by "title"? Where would you put it on your resume, right below your name and phone number?

[rugged tundra]

Hi thanks for the reply, I am just filling out the application and have to fill in my own job title, should I just match it to the position? i.e. junior javascript/python developer?

[summer roost]

Yeah, that sounds reasonable to me.

[rugged tundra]

thank you

[summer roost]

As long as it's in a general "about you" section, that seems fine. If it's in a "work history" sort of section, just be honest - "electrician" is fine.

[hexed tide]

when you say a portfolio, do you mean a portfolio website to show off your projects?

[hexed tide]

what sort of projects have you worked on thus far? you want to be a ds yea?

well if you want to work in ds and you enjoy python, then i would just keep learning python for a bit and its supporting libraries (pandas, numpy, scikit etc) once you know what you are doing with the tools you use, its easier to come up with interesting projects.

you could try kaggle for some practice / inspiration.

well if you want to work with data SQL is a must. you can get pretty far with python + sql.

if you wana get spicy you could learn some R too

thats impossible to answer without knowing your location. it will probably be pretty good though

ah cool. yeah im in new zealand and planning on moving to aussie so i know a bit about the area. if you can get in you will make plenty. not as much as silicon valley but the salaries here are pretty decent. typical salary for a good grad would maybe be 80k ish? hard to say, it varies a lot

im a swe so i dont know a whole lot about the ds stuff, but from what i have read, the ds / ml work big companies like that are doing are probably at the masters / phd level. and there is just less demand than for swe's. not to say you cant get in with a bachelors, but there arent as many openings. especially atm. things could be different in 2 years time

not really sure tbh. new zealand and aussie have an agreement that we can just travel and work between each other freely, so its not something i have to think about. in new zealand at least i know it is pretty common for foreigners to come here and do a one year course and get a visa afterwards

[tender mist]

m

[true harness]

resume question for US. as a freshman in my first semester in college, i haven't taken many relevant courses and my GPA doesn't really exist yet. would it be reasonable to include an entry for my high school? i would have some relevant courses to include from hs

[peak halo]

you're talking about your resume? yes, it's reasonable to include high school on your resume while you're a college freshman.

[true harness]

i'm assuming the same advice would go for activities and achievements?

[peak halo]

yep

[vapid jay]

Hello guys what is best site to make resume/cv online? no paid site

[peak halo]

https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/awesome-cv/dfnvtnhzhhbm

[vapid jay]

is it good?

[peak halo]

you asked what the best one was, and that was my answer, so yes.

[true harness]

the only thing i'd change about it is the weird red font part

[peak halo]

yeah, there's a way you can change the "accent color" to black. or whatever you want.

[gritty rivet]

Google Docs... I tried all kinds of more specialized tools but didn't find any of them worthwhile

[cerulean fiber]

try using canva

[barren kelp]

I just finished school and im thinking of taking a university but I'm having doubts between taking information practices and computer science. Can someone tell which one would have more opportunities in future and whats the main difference between these two

[buoyant seal]

I did for a time in Figma. (Web development design tool), but recently it was bought by Adobe and I guess will become subject to change

[vapid jay]

yes i used canva its really good

[buoyant seal]

May I will try building in Photopea if they have output into PDF with keeping text selectable
I will be able saving as Photoshop file my work then

[nimble sable]

hello there, i'm new to python but i have experience in other languages mainly (c#, c++ and go) so studying python been going great. my question is if i want to work in full-stack with python what would be the frameworks and tools i should use? i've read a lot about django but what tools and frameworks that would compliment it

[tender bobcat]

ññ

[gritty rivet]

Getting good with Django is enough, but that's not full stack without front end, so maybe a JS framework like React or Vue

Python is almost exclusively used for backend. If you want to go deep with that, follow the Python and the backend tracks on roadmaps.sh

Given the languages you know currently don't include JS, sticking with backend over fullstack might make sense.

[nimble sable]

i plan on strengthening myself in backend with python before i get my hands dirty in frontend with js

another question if you don't mind, and it's a weird question considering the server i'm in but is python actually good for backend like go and other languages or should i choose another path like machine learning or data science because i love python

[smoky quest]

Python is great for backend.
Although many companies would grow out of it once they reach a certain scale.

[nimble sable]

thank you for the helpful advice, i will get into django and read the docs. 🥂

[buoyant seal]

Technically a choice between Django for fastest development, and FastAPI for clean architectured long term development should be a big variety of choice enough that it would be hard to predict need for other things until it was made clear

Recently i discovered a fintech succesful startup made in PHP though xD I thought ideal for fintech would be Java thing Due to its popularity (pool of devs) + more verbovosity/compiling check

[smoky quest]

yeah, there is a lot going for python!
I need to look more at fastapi though

[buoyant seal]

i make pet project in fastapi and with it wishing with one-two more books and one-two real projects to conclude my python journey and making switch to dive into Golang Considering my secondary speciality in DevOps, Golang looks best next lang to me. Otherwise i would have probably went for Java perhaps if i was backend only person

[nimble sable]

i've used fastapi to create a small api for a todo webapp as testing for the framework and it works great but i've read a lot that fastapi is not really scalable outside of api development, unlike django which is like a backend suite i guess. i'm new to this so acknowledge my opinion with a grain of salt 😋

[buoyant seal]

bwhaha. That's the thing. Python in web dev is purely API thing if we wish scalability xD
It is REST API, or GraphQL API, or Web socket API, or gRPC api, or... webRTC thing, or whatever else there? Full stack approach in python only is ridiculous and certainly against scalability
FastAPI is great at least for REST API, plus nothing prevents it from switching to gRPC if necessary. Not sure how well it goes with other things. Bue due to its more clean architecture approach it should be better compatible with every other way to establish API too. Django locks you into being REST API only (or rendering HTML). Although fair to say that Django Channels project exist to make Web socket stuff with Django too, and GraphQL stuff exists for Django too. Ergh, it is more code architecture difference than availability of ways to expose it

[nimble sable]

i studied some go and actually i have go backend dev is in my roadmap after i use django on some projects and test it for a while

[buoyant seal]

I wish going golang deeper because it is ideal DevOps infrastructure tool development language
Kubernetes, Terraform, Prometheus, Loki were made with this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeMFqkcPYcg) at least, and probably many other things.

[nimble sable]

well, my future tech stack will be [yew: rust for frontend, gin: go for backend and python in the corner watching ] 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[buoyant seal]

rust can be already used as frontend language? UPD: https://www.makeuseof.com/rust-webassembly-frameworks/ oh yeah, found

[buoyant seal]

https://github.com/appcypher/awesome-wasm-langs according to this list Rust is stable and ready being used for web assembly, hmm python is not. Oh, golang is ready for web assembly too.

[nimble sable]

yeah, i mentioned the yew framework for frontend and you can actually use actix for backend if we leave the controversies behind or xtica and of course go was generally created by google for the backend

[buoyant seal]

Tbh, i kind of wondering how much stuff is not implemented in this stuff with web assembly. I suspect it is not even close to js frontend frameworks like React/Vue/Angular
Even Svelte i suspect is already more developed and ready being used than any this web assembly stuff

[nimble sable]

well yeah, you're comparing 27 years of maturity with js to 5 years with wasm

but wasm is catching up fast because it alows us to use blazingly fast 🤣 languages on the web

[buoyant seal]

and oh well, people got tired of javascript xD de facto the only frontend language
people would grab any thing which would allow them reliably get out of this js needle

[smoky quest]

Let's refrain from pejorative words here

[nimble sable]

apologies

[red yacht]

How much harder is C++ than Python?

[buoyant seal]

i think at least 1.5 harder, probably even 2.0x more time consuming to do the same according to some sources
the general principles are the same, but C++ is like swiss knife... which tried to be everything. considering its lower level position, it is a bit more tiresome and easy to shoot into your own legs language.
I mean principles are all the same, literally all same programming rules apply the same to both languages, but nevertheless a bit more... tiresome lang xD

[nimble sable]

well, based on my experience with both, with c++ it's not about how much harder as much as it's learning curve

[buoyant seal]

some books say that doing same thing would take twice more time in C++ than in python, just because of nature of the lang (not remembering which one)

[gilded valley]

what does this have to do with careers?

[nimble sable]

the biggest difference would be the memory management, that's what gives c++ the rep of being hard

[red yacht]

I asked that because I'm 17 and learning python, I would say I'm kinda good with it. But I struggle with some stuff so I wanted to know how much harder C++ is.

[gilded valley]

!off-topic or #python-discussion seems like a better place for this question/discussion

[inner wren]

Off-topic channels

There are three off-topic channels:
• #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval
• #ot1-perplexing-regexing
• #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

The channel names change every night at midnight UTC and are often fun meta references to jokes or conversations that happened on the server.

See our off-topic etiquette page for more guidance on how the channels should be used.

[buoyant seal]

it should be relatively easy (but still many times less easier than in python) to master easy level and to reach eventually some medium level of it, but considering its over...stuffed state, highly likely mastering it to expert level would take 2-4 times more effort.

[red yacht]

Yeah that's the think I'm soo good in math and phys but when it comes to programming I feel so stupid some times.

[summer roost]

looks like no one is using #ot1-perplexing-regexing at the moment - we could move the discussion about the relative difficulty of learning different languages there.

[lapis wind]

Might be waiting for a decade or two

[haughty sparrow]

would you guys recommend learning javascript or keep delving further into django before learning it?

I keep seeing lots of job postings related to django that require javascript

[nimble sable]

ooh? you really think so?

[nimble sable]

in my opinion is to understand and work with django for a while first, then you could branch out to frontend with whatever js framework you want

[haughty sparrow]

thanks! I initially wanted to learn to code to work with data but the market is... very rough where I live

I think I've seen less than 20 ads in a month as entry jobs, whereas I saw more than 400 for webdev so I started branching out, I checked the pin for roadmap and it seems pretty helpful!

[nimble sable]

well, you do what you gotta do, wish you the best

[haughty sparrow]

thank you very much!

[buoyant seal]

Javascript is not necessary being learned for Django, but basics are desired being learned... eventually.
Django is for backend APIs => Django Rest Framework 🙂

[haughty sparrow]

Thanks! thats what ive been reading, I think I'll learn more about Django before I delve into javascript properly

[river tundra]

Hi everybody

What would you guys recommend about mentoring community ?

I try to help and tutor some beginners here at discord but it would be great if myself would have some mentoring of some more experienced tutor

---

Personally I would imagine something like a pyramid scheme (a good one haha)... A very expert person would tutor a couple of people. Those couple of people would tutor another couple each one, and so on...

[peak halo]

This is the career discussion channel. I'm not sure how what you have said is related

[broken kayak]

Hello! I want to write an almost to perfection business plan but I don't have any experience anyone?

You can inbox direct

If you have any idea or a template

[smoky quest]

There are many templates already available online. Are they not fitting your use case?
It's also a discussion less fitting for #career-advice . Feel free to tag me in one of the off topic channel

[shadow moss]

Go straight to Javascript, Django is old school cool

[haughty sparrow]

hahaha ive been checking the 'roadmap' pin posted in here and I wish I would have seen that earlier

i am always at the point of 'ok what next'

[vapid jay]

Hello

[unique oriole]

Yoo!am doing the same now sure how long u been learning python

But i started python 6 8 months ago now learning django and js at same time( i did spend some time learning only django first).

[rugged tundra]

howdy, any/many people in aus here?

[north oasis]

Good morning!

I learned programming on my own. I consider myself an advanced python developer today.

I've been a lawyer for almost a decade now. And I really (Really) like coding. It's a mental stronghold for me.

I'm willing to become a developer by profession, but I've been away from the market for a while now.

What do you guys suggest for taking the first steps? How can I prove my knowledge? Where should I be looking for jobs?

I've never thought/prepared for that intention.

I'm now learning C. I really would like to contribute to Foss (mainly Linux stuff).

Forgot to mention I'm 33 years old.

[pulsar drum]

Probably. Better to just ask your question first.

[pulsar drum]

Depends on how you best learn. Enrolling in courses is fairly popular e.g. CS50. As for job hunting, that would be in the standard places like job boards.

Oh I missed the first part where you said you've already learned

[north oasis]

I've tried upwork. I don't know what I've been doing wrong, thought. Never got a job from there.

Feels like Python workers aren't as needed as everyone loves the language.

[rugged tundra]

Ok, it's sort of specific to location, but I'll ask any way.

I frequently hear about people in my city (Melbourne) securing junior positions (usually acquaintances of my wife who is not originally from AU, she interacts with the community of people from her home country but whom now live here)., I am frequently relayed stories about X person securing X job after bootcamps or self study.. Even 1 who secured a position after a udemy course, I am also told it's quite easy to secure a coding position right now as there is high demand due to skills shortage (probably due to low immigration).

However, I was also told on another platform today that I could not hope to get a coding position, junior or otherwise even with 1 year of self study, so I'm hearing mixed messages.. Though the positive ones (and ones that are coming directly from my wife and her social circle) are all positive. I just wanted to hear what others had to say if they're in my location. Thanks.

[pulsar drum]

I don't have experience with freelancing so I can't speak to that. Anyway, from the self taught success stories I've seen, they typically rely on projects that they list on their resumes as a way to demonstrate skill. Significant FOSS contributions would fit the bill too.

[pulsar drum]

In general, be careful of survivorship bias. A similar pattern can be seen in online discussions too.

[north oasis]

Cool. I'll start contributing. Thank you for the tips.

[pulsar drum]

You're welcome. I think it's better to try to focus on fewer contributions that have larger impact. Because it's difficult to demonstrate impact for a lot of minor contributions, unless you're like a long time maintainer of a project. I personally used a mix of open source contributions, class projects, and personal projects on my resume.

[unique oriole]

Wait 1 year of self elarning isent enough?
I know that varies for everyone but still how many on average would you say someone needs to get good

Good= '''hireable'''

[north oasis]

I'm working on a private oriject of mine. But it won't go open-source. 😕

I'll try looking for some open source projects to contribute with.

[rugged tundra]

Hi thanks for the reply, you are right and I'm trying to avoid it.. Though without being in the industry yet it's hard to gauge when to actually begin applying if hearing conflicting opinions on required experience. That said.. I have decided to start applying for positions anyway, I believe my current level to be at LEAST that of those who have completed bootcamps.. I'll see how it goes I guess lol.

[crude moon]

You can definitely get a job after a bootcamp, self learning would be much harder unless you have an impressive collection of repos. Also, if you start via bootcamp, expect to start on slightly less money, then after a year or two you will be on par with others. There will also be a slightly smaller pool of jobs as some will require a computer science or similar degree.

I have hired someone from a react bootcamp myself on to our app team

I would most likely not hire someone after a Udemy course though if that is all they had done

[rugged tundra]

Thank you very much for the reply, I really appreciate it. I have been learning to code for around 6 months but have done so consecutively every single day, I also have a session with a developer once per week who has graciously offered his time to help me learn (something I am extremely grateful for).

I have opted not to undertake a bootcamp only due to the cost.. But I might consider it if I struggle to secure a position. My first job application will actually be sent out this Monday.. I'm not sure how the applications will be received.. But I figure I won't know if I don't try.. I'll also have a better idea of whether I should undertake a bootcamp or not (to help me secure an opportunity).

[crude moon]

You might get lucky if you are willing to start on a much lower salary than offered, I would go that way. As basically the business who hires you will really be paying for your on the job training. You will take time away from other developers as they will need to show you things. There could be a team who wants to do this.

Junior jobs tend to get a lot of cvs, so companies need some way of filtering them, thats why they say must have a degree, or bootcamp, or x experience. Otherwise there will be too many cvs of people saying I learned at home, and there just is not enough time to interview them all.

There is no harm in trying though, good luck.

The best thing you could do is write something they can see, app, web app, or whatever you are going for so they can see it, youll have a much higher chance that way.

[rugged tundra]

Thanks so much for the insight.. I hope you don't mind me asking, would you be open for me to DM you 1 or 2 short questions? There's no pressure to say yes. It would just be in regards to what you'd consider to be a good level of skill for someone to fill a junior position (since you just hired someone that completed a bootcamp), No pressure to say yes though, I appreciate the info so far!

[crude moon]

Yes go ahead

[pulsar drum]

That's okay. Projects don't have to be open source to be on your resume. I just made that comment because you said contribution which implies open source.

[broken kayak]

I am looking for guidance step by step

[near ocean]

People usually pay for such things

[vapid jay]

anyone who wanna team for GameJam

[gritty rivet]

Try asking #game-development if you haven't

[vapid jay]

k

[unreal tide]

can i ask doubts ?

[summer roost]

Remember that your competition for those junior positions will be people who went to university and studied for 4 years and got a computer science or software engineering degree.

[unique oriole]

Yep true

Is there a guide to gauge what lvl am i
That would be nice😂.

[daring root]

does anyone know any good places i can get a job teaching python

[near ocean]

If you want to volunteer, theres a bunch of organisations that teach coding to underrepresented groups, might be a bit hard to get into those if youre not part of those groups

[daring root]

mhm

[buoyant seal]

missed word about teaching in my country multiple teaching coding jobs. Accessing over local hiring web site should be enough
kind of under question what is used in your country

[static saffron]

heyo so Im looking for a book that can help me learn the basics of Cyber, as there is a test that I want to pass badly yet it seems to have a low LOW L O W pass rate so I want to study
so if anyone knows any good books for beginners id love that

[haughty sparrow]

@unique oriolemore or less the same time haha, although I spent my time learning different things... didnt really focus particularly on web dev, but I think im going to devote my time to it moving forward until I land a job, maybe move to automation in the future when I feel more prepared 😄

[delicate bane]

<@&831776746206265384> thanks

[fallen saddle]

do u guys have any tip on how do i start freelancing(except for fiverr , upwork)[i do web dev,bot dev,game dev]?

[static saffron]

?? confused?

[leaden knot]

It was a spammer, case now closed(I hope)

[vapid jay]

Can someone recommend me a discord where I can ask about different IT career options? Not necessarily related to developing/python, but overall.

[static dock]

hi i wanna get some guidance for starting my ML carrier thanks

[buoyant seal]

I think cybersecurity starts somewhere from cryptography 🙂

[static saffron]

I am not kidding this could mean me going to collage or not so jokes are not what im looking for, unless your actually serious at which point please explain I have a week

[buoyant seal]

Technically this is not a joke.
Cryptography is basics discipline for cybersecurity. This manga is just brain fiendly way to get it. I learned SQL from similar manga and can assure you it was really cool entry level knowledge to get (at least for SQL)

You would need to deepen your knowledge with more serious stuff of course, but as first experience it is really great.

[static saffron]

Ive been working with SQL for 3 years now, im really looking for something a bit more advanced

[buoyant seal]

the thing is... security is kind of really.... broad topic and likely hood that you will learn what they will ask is kind of close to zero, unless learning basics.
Can you explore what previous tests were asking in them? Finding more information about examples of examss?
That would be better bet i think.

As a possible lead, to get materials for pen testing otherwise. Attack and defense are really closely tied together 🙂

and just checking O'reilly books perhaps? https://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Security-David-Sutton/dp/1780173407

[static saffron]

its a military examination which is why im already doing 3 courses as we speak and printed about 4 PDFS about interview questions, I really really just need a good Ebook to work off of.

[buoyant seal]

We can probably find Discord server full of Cybersecurity people, and they can advise you better resources there
Cyber security section is available there
https://github.com/mhxion/awesome-discord-communities#computer-security

[static saffron]

ty

[delicate bane]

ah if this is the country im thinking of, i believe you will be in a good place after you get accepted and even after your time served (with respect to jobs)

[static saffron]

what country

[shadow moss]

CyberSecurity doesn't need to know details of Cryptography, just you need to use one of well established ones. Most cryptography failures are either developers rolling their own or just plain not using it.

[smoky quest]

You don't need to roll your own, but understanding the details help understand what is going on and how to select the well established ones

[shadow moss]

Public/Private Keys is pretty much all you need to know. Selection is set in stone and most of time, it's handled at Transport level, namely HTTPS. It must be TLS 1.2 and it must be one of following ciphers: TLS_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 TLS_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 TLS_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256 TLS_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384 TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256 TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384

[smoky quest]

There is also signing, hashing, symmetric vs asymmetric, key exchanges and other concepts in terms of key splitting, curve vs etc.

[buoyant seal]

of course implementing your own is wrong for prod. But that's the best way to learn them and to understand how they work, best for learning experience xD

[shadow moss]

Almost no one needs to deal with that unless you are crypto developer or cyber security person who is responsible for really really high end crypto systems. In that case, best place to start your career path (In America) is at your recruiter office. US Navy Rating CTN, I don't know the others.

[buoyant seal]

ergh? quite regular task for backend dev who setups auth stuff for application
you cant setup auth if you don't know how it works

[smoky quest]

That may be the expectations for a sysadmin, but I would expect a lot more for an engineer working in security. One concrete example is being able to dissect a JWT token and I am referring to the recent issues where JWT tokens where not validated correctly

[smoky quest]

You would be surprised how much basic security issues there are out there.

[buoyant seal]

i am all for as much security education for software developer as possible. not arguing about it here xD
all devs, front, back, devops, desktop, mobile need to know as much as possible from it

security goes through all layers of developemnt. all should be aware and not fucking it up

[smoky quest]

There is also this weird obscurantism around security that can be quite toxic to the field

[shadow moss]

Sure, but the problem isn't lack of crypto knowledge, it's just the lack of giving a shit about security. Best skills for people wanting to do Cyber Security is reading and writing. Why? Your day is mostly filling out useless reports about what's not secure, why it's not secure and lying to auditors about how Rabbit actually gives a shit about fixing it when he's clearly said to go to hell.

[smoky quest]

oh I empathize with you.
The compliance aspects are a dreadful aspect of the job for everyone

[flat kestrel]

Hello, has anyone here worked on a degree while working as a developer? Any general advice? I work 90-95% remote but am not sure if I can continue at a primarily in-person university (UMN Twin Cities) unless I figure out an arrangement with my employer to work Saturdays. On the other hand I feel like going to a less prestigious university with more online options might devalue my degree. I would be working on a BS CS that I already have about 3/4th done.

[balmy spade]

I'm curious, what it the concern of "devaluing" a degree if you are already a developer in the field? Your work experience is going to speak volumes louder than the degree if you decide to shift positions. From someone who doesn't have them, is there really that much focus on where the degree comes from versus just having the degree?

[flat kestrel]

Where I live every other university is far less rigorous. Do employers or other people care? I don't know.

[delicate bane]

i would take the option with more online options in your shoes. but thats me. ill let others weigh in.

[balmy spade]

Hmm... I would probably want to answer that for myself if I were in your position. If the university selection is a personal choice, that makes sense. If the university actually carries more weight to employers even after you have work experience, that would also make sense.
Filling in some of the why behind the choice would make it easier for you to determine what course of action is best suited to your goal.

At 3/4ths the way through a degree, it certainly seems worth completing.

[delicate bane]

do you foresee yourself going back for grad school? if so, then its probably worth completing. thats another factor to consider. depending on your career goals, a grad degree might be useless/not valuable to you personally however. something to consider

[flat kestrel]

Yeah I have to figure that out myself. I'm not sure if I want to stay in general software dev (CRUD type stuff) or go into something like ML long term. I do think I want to leave the grad school door open in-case dev ever cools off or I get sick of it, so let's say yes.

[delicate bane]

i think thats a safe bet. even if you choose not to complete the degree, as long as you have taken this into account when you make your decision, then i believe its ok

[surreal trail]

bruh i am in college cs and i am bless but the friends i made there already thinking to dropout

[gray sky]

already

[surreal trail]

they never knew coding

[near ocean]

80% of my peers in uni, including myself, didnt know how to code and have not written a single line of code before university
Not an excuse to dropout, dont be like your friends, theyre about to do something really stupid

[surreal trail]

i know but they just gave up real quick its annoying i am willing to never give up because picking this major is my responsibility and mine only

i dont know shit about coding i just let someone help me fix my errors

[smoky quest]

That's fine, you are there to learn! It's a great attitude to have some grit. Things can also look a bit intimidating at first and it may take a while to feel more comfortable.
However I would recommend to not stop at having someone help you but also making sure you understand what is going on so you don't need help in the future

[surreal trail]

i am still a freshman

[smoky quest]

Exactly! Even more reason to do so

[shadow ermine]

hello! Can anyone help me with a doubt in choosing a major?
between:
computer science engineering
Information technology
and
Artificial Intelligence and data science
im from India. I'm getting AI and DS in reputed colleges whereas CSE and IT 🫠
slightly lower chances
if anyone knows anything that can clear something please guide:))

[surreal trail]

in my opinion data science i dream to be a data analyst

[lapis wind]

AI and DS is probably more versatile in terms of job requirements

[shadow ermine]

so Ai DS goes better 👀 ?

[smoky quest]

Pick what interests you the most.
CS may be the broadest as you could still get into DS/AI with it as well

[shadow ermine]

got interests towards ds and ai tbh.
but still got confusion if completely specialized major will worth it or not is the doubt im having.
.
i agree with you 👀
i can go into ai/ds with plain cs too.. but there comes a college factor :/
im getting ai easily in good institutes and cs/it 🫠

[pure lynx]

hi, I'm doing a igcse in computer science and I'm curious how long will it take to prep for a pre release and is the pre release easy?

[surreal trail]

damn

[smoky quest]

If you know you want to spend you career there, then having a more specialized degree could mean you have more relevant things to show in interviews and for jobs to apply to.

[gray sky]

just started my A levels and i can only do python, html but i need to learn java

[gray sky]

no not really, its easy

[smoky quest]

Yeah, it's normal to go through multiple languages and paradigms. It helps open up the mind and see different ways to think about problems.

[gray sky]

how do i improve at coding?

[smoky quest]

*Learn more about it (books, videos, classes, etc.)

• Practice with exercises and projects

The devil is in the details though

[pure lynx]

alr but how long did it take you to prepare for pre release. I got 1 month and I just started on python. well I'm doing a course and I almost done it

[gray sky]

i barely prepared, i finished it in 4 days

[pure lynx]

so what do you do on pre release?

[gray sky]

u get given 3 tasks which you try complete

[pure lynx]

Ik but are the tasks, hard?

[gray sky]

easy id say

[tough charm]

Just out of curiosity what you doing for a level cuz I just started mine too

[gray sky]

depends whether u know how to code or not

[gray sky]

im doing maths,cs,business and english wbu?

[tough charm]

Maths, further maths, chem and epq

[gray sky]

do u do coding as a hobby?

[vapid jay]

does anyone know if I can do computer science A level or at uni if I didn't do it gcse

[gritty rivet]

I have no idea what any of that means, you might want to specify what country

[vapid jay]

good point it is quite late here, its UK

the us equivalent would be, can I do comp science at college if I didn't do it in high school (I think)

[tough charm]

You can def do computer science a level without compsci gcse. I’m pretty sure you can def do it at uni without it too, loads of ppl do that but I might be wrong.

[vapid jay]

ok thanks, will they expect me to know any languages in particular or can I just ask to do it even if I knew nothing (I can code python but I'm not very good, am only 14 though so I have time)

[tough charm]

You have loads of time, I think quite a lot of people who major in computer science go into it without even knowing how to program I’ve heard. however, you should learn just so the jump isn’t too big but it’s definitely not obligatory to do a level compsci for it; I’m not. Join clubs and do outside activities related to programming to put on your personal statement to show your passionate

[vapid jay]

ok thank you

[gilded valley]

You can do it at uni without having done it at A-level, many unis don't even see CS at A-Level as much of a plus. Going into either the degree or A-level, you wouldn't be expected to know any programming - but it would probably be easier if you were comfortable with the basics of python

[sudden yacht]

There was no such thing as Comp Sci at GCSE when I was a lad. I did Comp Sci at A-Level prior to Uni, but there were plenty of people who hadn't done Comp Sci at A-Level either.

I can't speak for all courses/Universities, but the course I did they didn't assume too much prior knowledge (though the pace was fairly brisk, so some prior understanding was useful).

[gilded eagle]

what exactly is independent research?

[graceful mason]

researching something in your own time/without someone helping you

[gilded eagle]

i was looking into doing coding related stuff for college (but coding comps like usaco aren't for me)

i am interested in research, but do colleges see value in independent research?

[graceful mason]

I'm not sure what you're asking to be honest - independent research is expected/valued at all levels of education (and life in general)

[peak halo]

!otn a when etzeitet was a lad

[inner wren]

:ok_hand: Added when-etzeitet-was-a-lad to the names list.

[vapid jay]

hello

[delicate bane]

hi, you are probably looking for #python-discussion since this is a channel for #career-advice

[frank mason]

How do people find Mentors? Do you use your company, social network FB/Twitter/Linkedin or any other resources?

[tall goblet]

Hello everyone, I'm looking for some advice here.
I'm at my final year of studies and I need to find an internship. I have studied software engineering for 5 years and I'm currently studying a master degree in Artificial Intelligence. I'm also a photographer and i'm interested in Audio Visual arts. I live in Tunisia.
I want to work on Artificial Intelligence generated arts and Data driven arts. (For reference: https://www.instagram.com/refikanadol/ and https://www.instagram.com/obvious_art/). But I don't seem to find a way, where to start or even where to search. So I thought of asking here maybe someone has worked in something similar and can give me some advice. Thank you and have a good day.

[peak halo]

I'm sorry to hear that 😦 but this server isn't for recruitment

[jagged forge]

If it is something they don't like then i would not force them to study it tho.

[bold locust]

Hello there 🙂
I'm self learning python ( I'm starting a pytorch tutorial right now).
I have one relatively simple app on my GitHub.
Any advice how to land a internship? I'm from Poland but currently in Belgium.

[gilded valley]

Are you studying for a degree?

[bold locust]

No, I'm not. Failed mechanical engineering at year 3. Had 2 python courses there and programming and maths were two things I enjoyed most

[gilded valley]

Generally in the UK at least, internships are only for people who are currently studying or possibly who have just finished their bachelors

[bold locust]

I see.And perhaps junior developer? Or is it better to finish my degree? I'm not sure if it'd be feasible in the near future...

[gilded valley]

finishing the degree seems like a good idea, but if it's not losing then junior developer positions seem difficult but not impossible to get

[bold locust]

Thanks 😉 I'll try to self study some more, post code on my GitHub and then try to apply somewhere.

[tall goblet]

you can try working on upwork or any freelance website.

[shadow moss]

You lost?

[gray sky]

Is this any good?

[stoic timber]

that's not related to career-discussion at all, you can ask in #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

[shadow moss]

This is for career discussions, try Off topic channel.

[gray sky]

One question is cyber security a high paying career?

[stoic timber]

from what I've seen here in the Netherlands yes, but it is also pretty specialized so it's not like you get it easily

[hardy lake]

Hey guys!
would you mind giving me some feedback on my portfolio?
https://portfolio-sas2k.vercel.app/

It's made with Python and my Full-Stack Framework "Lemon 🍋" (https://github.com/Sas2k/Lemon)

[bold locust]

Thank you, I'll check it out.

[vapid jay]

How viable is it to be a machine-learning focused freelancer in the US? I'm going to do a career switch from web-design to ML, and I want to do it freelance/independent contractor instead of as an employee.

Any thoughts?

[peak halo]

one of my classmates was a career changer and became an ML freelancer, but I don't really know how he did it.

that is to say, I have n=1 saying that it's possible, at least.

[vapid jay]

Is there any more information at all you could share? I would love to know more about it. I haven't been able to find many examples.

Hello, I have decided to learn python and work on fiverr and upwork as a freelancer and charge 15$/hr (entry level). Is it a good idea ???

[shadow moss]

If you have education it’s doable. What is your degree in?

[near ocean]

Youre probably going to struggle a lot before you build up your "fiverr resume"

[summer roost]

and you'll likely wind up working for significantly less than minimum wage for a while until you've built up that resume.

[surreal trail]

being a data analyst is as easy and i complicated it much as i thought all i need to learn is one programming language which is python and master excel learn SQL basis and Web development basis.

and my maths and statistics is great data analysis is so suitable for me!

[vapid jay]

I have an unfinished degree in physics, currently studying neuroscience at university. My CS education is self-studied.

[surreal trail]

i bet your idol is elon musk

[vapid jay]

No, it's Neil DeGrasse Tyson

[magic sluice]

It's ass, specially for gaming.

[gray sky]

Y so

[near ocean]

Discussing pc builds isnt on topic for this channel, try #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

[gray sky]

Is cyber security high paying career

[near ocean]

Generally, yes

[magic sluice]

I5 with 1650 bro you won't run the AAA games at all.

[gray sky]

Is it better than software development

[near ocean]

Better in what terms? If you enjoy one more than the other doesnt that mean its better? Pay is very market and company specific

[summer roost]

again, take this to an off-topic channel.

[summer roost]

for security in particular, pay seems to be incredibly variable. Independent security researchers tend to make peanuts, security consulting firms make big bucks and in-house security folks at larger companies make somewhere in between.

[magic sluice]

I was just answering the question

[summer roost]

Understood. In the future, please don't, and instead redirect the asker to an off-topic channel and answer them there.

[magic sluice]

Got it.

[red yacht]

I'm currently in 12th grade and after grad. I want to study CS my question is what do I have to do to become a researcher in a uni and later on a professor?

[near ocean]

You pretty much need a PhD to teach in universities

[red yacht]

Yeah I know that in Germany we do masters then its a 2 years PhD program and in the end you must write a "Desertation" but my question is should i get work experience before PhD and if all i have done is Bachelor, master and PhD wouldn't that make me unexperienced??

[near ocean]

What kind of work experience and why would you leave academia to get it? Doesnt sound very relevant
Usually you get to teach classes as part of your phd so theres some work experience

[leaden knot]

Study and get interested in academic topics.
Academia is not for everyone. Research is not for everyone - corporate research positions don't number that high

[honest pivot]

You'll need a PhD, probably a few years of postdoc positions, loads of high-quality research papers, and you'll have to be well-known among important people in your field, if you want to get a professorship.

[red yacht]

That's the thing i love CS but I don't want to spend rest of my life contributing to a private company for a 70000€ salary.

[near ocean]

You think you'll get paid more as a professor?

[leaden knot]

It doesn't matter. Don't decide if you want to get a PhD without at least 2 years of degree life

[honest pivot]

Professors don't get paid very much, if you want to be highly paid, better go into industry

[red yacht]

No, but atleast i would be able to do what i love and if i work for a industry then all I'm doing is just helping them grow. which benefits only them.

[honest pivot]

As someone who did a PhD and did six years of postdocs and tried their best to get a professorship, let me tell you that this route is nearly impossible. You will be better served by deciding that there is more than only one thing that you love.

[red yacht]

Yeah i guess in 6 years of collage i will find that out.

[near ocean]

I think thats a silly line of thinking
Private sector work is not only for the benefit of your employer

[red yacht]

Let's say 90% of the work is to make revenue and 10% helping others

[leaden knot]

I don't really think it's silly.

[near ocean]

This seems to contradict your previous comment about only making 70k
You could really help people by volunteering your time and not worrying about that 70k which isnt that much anyway as you say

[summer roost]

what is it that you love, exactly?

[red yacht]

Research.. Specially machine learning. I'm already doing an internship in that field too (Mandatory one)

[spice surge]

Hello I'm new to python can someone explain to the careers under python

[summer roost]

well, there's plenty of private sector research in machine learning these days, but if you think academia is a better fit for you, then by all means pursue it. Either way, the initial steps are the same: go to university, pursue a computer science degree, take courses focused on machine learning, try to get internships in that area

[red yacht]

Software Engineer.
Data Scientist.
Data Analyst.
Machine Learning.

[leaden knot]

CS isn't the only way to ML. All of physics, applied math, pure math, stats are possible as well. (Anything not on this list will make it significantly harder)

[summer roost]

ML isn't my field, but my impression is that ML researchers these days tend to need at least a masters degree, and that even if their bachelor's degree isn't in computer science, the masters degree usually would be.

[red yacht]

In Germany, if you have high points in bachelor you can do PhD right away without masters. idk if its the same in the U.S

[summer roost]

I haven't heard of that in the US. The closest I know of would be BS/MS programs where at the end of 5 years you graduate with both a bachelors and a masters degree.

[red yacht]

we call that "Dual Studium" dualuni or something in English

[spice surge]

So no web design wow

[red yacht]

There's alot you can do with python. that's just what was on my mind.

[near ocean]

Probably not web design but definitely web development in the backend

[spice surge]

Ohk thanks

[red yacht]

If you want to be a frontend web dev then I would say Angular but that alone isn't enough.

[spice surge]

I'm really sorry but can u explain this front end back end to me pls

[red yacht]

backend is the code and stuff and front end is what the user see and stuff.... Front end development is programming which focuses on the visual elements of a website or app that a user will interact with. Meanwhile, back end development focuses on the side of a website users can't see (the server side).

[buoyant seal]

Frontend = dealing with HTML/CSS/Javascript/making interactive GUI of a web site./Mostly client side, but can be server side too/Can be even entire graphical game 🙂
Backend = Dealing with JSON/Serverside only stuff/SQL databases/Different NoSQL databases/Distributing workload with message queue and message eventing systems across multiple servers/Attaching emailing/payment whatever system to work at server side/Backend provides online-multiplayer side to any application

[spice surge]

Oh I see I'll read up something's online then

[spice surge]

Ohhhh, but this slowmode tho😅

[buoyant seal]

there is also third side of the the web dev coin btw, it is called DevOps = Dealing with infrastructure deployment, observability (monitoring, logging, tracing systems), reliability, scalability, security. Automating development and maintanance processes. Technologies involved... Containers like: Docker, Docker-compose, Configuration managements like: Ansible, Salt, Infra provisoning like: Terraform, Pulumi, CDK, Container Orchestration like: Kubernetes, AWS ECS and its analogs, web servers, forward and reverse proxies, CI CD tools like: Github Actions, Gitlab CI, ArgoCD, Tekton, some programming language to glue it, different other systems

[velvet eagle]

so im new to python does anyone know how to add like a respawn button or something like retry that will start my game to the beggining instead of closing the app and reopening

[summer roost]

This channel is for discussion about jobs and careers. See #python-discussion or #❓｜how-to-get-help

[velvet eagle]

sorry

[spice surge]

Thanks alot bro appreciate

[delicate bane]

haha i like the game analogy

[honest pivot]

Strange, in the US it's usually the other way around. PhD programs are usually "combined" 5-year programs that are started right after your bachelor's, with the option of leaving early with a masters after two years.

[ivory sluice]

when you say "combined" you mean masters & PhD combined, i guess?

[honest pivot]

yes

[ivory sluice]

yeah i've seen that. start PhD program after BS and grab a MS along the way

[shadow moss]

Please no more zero to hero DevOps, I can't take it anymore

[ivory sluice]

but the 4+1 for BS/MS is also common, and schools will often let you skip the GRE in these programs if you meet other GPA requirements and such

[stone nymph]

BS/MS is common but its hard to get into, you can apply directly to a PhD after undergrad but its very competitive to get into, so a lot of people end up doing a masters first. It's usually 3.5 GPA to get accepted during ur BS, and you have to graduate on time.

PHD is basically 120 credits, 60 credits is in courses rest is in research+ your thesis. If you get 36 credits, you can leave with a masters.

[summer roost]

well, TIL. I ran fast away from academia and never looked back, so I suppose it's just something I haven't heard of.

[stone nymph]

trapped in grad school here

[near ocean]

They should probably start with a CS bachelors and a couple AI/ML related modules before they decide academia is for them
Besides, there's plenty of cool research done in the private sector, youre telling me you wouldnt work on stable diffusion, gpt or whatever else google and amazon and rhe like do because theyre private companies?

[stone nymph]

The issue is that you can't even get into research without a graduate degree (for full time positions) . It's not even academia tbh, a lot of people do graduate degree for industry

[summer roost]

I agree that they should start with a CS BS before making any decisions, but it's totally OK to decide that you wouldn't work for a private company - or a particular private company - regardless of the work you'd be doing for them.

[stone nymph]

btw why is slowmode set on 1minute

[summer roost]

it cuts down the number of low-effort posts and arguments in this channel.

[near ocean]

Sure, when the reason is valid
Not wanting to work for Palantir cause they do military contracts is fine
Not wanting to work for Lockheed is fine because they build rockets that then goes and kills people
Not wanting to work for ironSource cause theyre a shady malware producing tumor of a company is also fine

But because they have revenue? Seems kinda silly to me, the primary purpose of a company is to create revenue for their shareholders

[vapid jay]

I published a paper by writing to and helping one of the professors in my school while doing my bachelors

[stone nymph]

yes thats undergraduate research, i meant working in research as a full time job.

[vapid jay]

You can defo do research but eant to become an academician you need phds no altrrnatives. If you dont have a phd you dont have a place in uni at all. You can work at industry too which does research

[summer roost]

sure. And it's not entirely unreasonable to choose not to work for any company that's structured that way (though other corporate structures exist, like ones where the fitness function is benefit to society - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_corporation for instance.

[vapid jay]

In my culture we love military and its seen as an honour to work for weapon research. Its weird how you guys dont like it

[near ocean]

Dont wanna delve into personal beliefs but their previous comment indicates that there exists a price for which they would work at said type of company, so the argument just sounds like a rant that leads to elitism and holier-than-thou behaviour

[summer roost]

I don't think it's that weird to not want to work on projects whose purpose is to cause harm. It's well within what a person can reasonably make moral choices about.

[shadow moss]

How much Democracy change have you been doing?

[dense mesa]

Which country is this? Haven't heard of it before

[summer roost]

Perhaps. That said, 18 year olds don't necessarily have the best grounding in philosophy, either, so I wouldn't be surprised to see someone who said at 18 that they'd never work for a for-profit company coming to a different conclusion when they're older.

[shadow moss]

most authoritarian governments are but we drifting dangerously into politics so I should stop.

[leaden knot]

Does your existence of price mean a real number, or existence of the concept of a price? Infinity is not a real number.

[leaden knot]

It's more idealism when young. Working for a for-profit company eventually becomes malum necessarium. It doesn't help that 'non-profits' aren't very necessarily altruistic.

[near ocean]

Mentioning a real number as insufficient kind of shows that you have some idea of a number that exists that is sufficient, otherwise why bother in the first place?

[woeful spruce]

How is this relevant to my career?!

[leaden knot]

No, existence of insufficient real numbers doesn't imply existence of any real number.

[dense mesa]

This seems like an intentional misinterpretation of what mariosis said

[lapis wind]

This seems overly pedantic

[woeful spruce]

Yea, this Convo should be taken to a more suitable channel

[gilded valley]

The discussion of how the behaviour of a company affects your willingness to work for said company is related to careers because it's a discussion of the kinds of companies you would be willing to have career at

[leaden knot]

I think under discussion of any place of work, it makes sense to discuss under what circumstances that one is or is not willing to work

[near ocean]

Im just defending my silliness comment from earlier

[dense mesa]

That's not what people are saying and I think we all know what was really meant

[woeful spruce]

On another note. Does anyone ever feel like their contributions and opinions aren't valued at work?

[near ocean]

Yes i think i've been there at some point recently

[leaden knot]

Given that the original speaker made strong statements about not wanting to work in for-profit companies, it makes sense they place huge, possibly infinite costs for working at such places

[woeful spruce]

How do you deal with it?

[dense mesa]

Literally no one was talking about this lol, no one mentioned infinity or prices in that way

[leaden knot]

Let's agree to disagree.

[woeful spruce]

It leaves me a bit resentful, and I feel like it is a distraction.

[near ocean]

I left.
I was put on project writing new VBA and refactoring old, slow ass janky VBA and Excel shit only for them to turn around and tell me that its all going to be superceded soon with a web UI and that none of it matters

[dense mesa]

It's annoying to deal with overly pedantic people who aren't adding value to a conversation other than pointing attention to themselves. We're here to try and help people, not to explain ourselves to people

[vapid jay]

how do you guys make money from coding

[woeful spruce]

Yuck. I would have left as well.

[leaden knot]

If you think discussion of willingness to work is 'pedantic,' that's for you.

[stone nymph]

Getting a job that involves coding?

[near ocean]

When I told them i had an offer and was trying to leave they told me that they wanted me to transition into C#/react at the same pay (£30k) and that I had it easy with no deadlines and no one to oversee me
Well yea ofc i had no deadlines lmao, the project was dead before I even took over

[woeful spruce]

I feel as though tech skills aren't valued much over being outspoken at my work. It is getting difficult to prove value. If the quality of work isn't terribly important, then should I just reduce quality so that I get things done faster?

[leaden knot]

Isn't this just quiet quitting?

[acoustic wolf]

I don't currently work as a coder, but I started doing this at my current and last job

[vapid jay]

If you are using electronics you are using fatal slave labour so you might as well work on weapons. My 2 cents

[woeful spruce]

How is that working out?

[vapid jay]

like what

[gilded valley]

how does it follow that because you've done some moral harm it's fine to do more?
"I ignored a red light, so I decided I may as well go on a burgling spree"

[stone nymph]

this is really googleable..

[near ocean]

Software engineering? This can be easily googled, if you have questions about careers we can help but you gotta do the bare minimum yourself

[acoustic wolf]

Sorry I forgot there is a slow reply for this chat. I was at a research lab and now a farm, and nobody seemed to give a shit except for me, so I started cutting corners.... still get paid the same, and nobody has noticed nor cared. The work gets done and I'm still producing everything that needs to be produced. Obviously I wish my work mattered but it's whatever. The Navy SEALs have a saying "if you aren't cheating you aren't trying"

[vapid jay]

im just bored tbh

[honest pivot]

If you feel this way, this is probably a workplace you should get out of. At the same time, though, there is always gonna be bit of politics to play, and a balance to strike between being good at what you do and making sure you get noticed for it.

[woeful spruce]

Yea. I guess I can keep doing that until I am ready to move on somewhere else.

[vapid jay]

Morality doesnt matter unless you are personally facing repecussions yourself. Youre also killing bunch of animals and ruining the enviroment. I have a cynical approach and that may be why you are thinking different than me, your take on this sounds quite idealistic.

[acoustic wolf]

It's a shame because I think most people want to do good work and to do it properly. But if management doesn't care then why should you. And also I don't think most people are getting paid enough to really care anymore.

[woeful spruce]

I would agree about leaving, but I haven't even been there for a whole year yet. I have to continue working so that I put in a decent amount of time and don't have a red flag on my resume for job hopping

[gilded valley]

Morality doesnt matter unless you are personally facing repecussions yourself

This is such an awful take both intellectually and morally

[lapis wind]

I mean that's a fairly bad way to look at things no? Why bother trying to prevent or reduce global warming? Why not just crank up the crude oil burning.

[near ocean]

I think you should rethink this given that youre from the country you said you're from and maybe not talk about this topic anymore

[woeful spruce]

It will sucks for whoever takes over my code when I leave. Poor quality leads to poor maintainability and scalability.

[leaden knot]

Why should people from a certain country not be allowed to speak?

[gilded valley]

It's pointless discussing morality with someone who has 0 sense of personal morality. Just a waste of time.

[vapid jay]

Im trying to figure it out as well

[honest pivot]

It's ok to have a short term position here or there on your resume, as long as you don't make a habit of it. You have to advocate for yourself, and you should not force yourself to stay in a toxic situation just because it hasn't reached some arbitrary amount of time. I think your main challenge is coming up with the best explanation for why you're leaving.

[balmy spade]

Hi, are we talking about careers in here and having a positive discussion without attacking others?

[near ocean]

General morality isnt on topic here, if you wanna carry on there's offtopic

[lapis wind]

I think mariosis was making a political point about turkey's recent political issues

[vapid jay]

Appereantly i cannot talk due to my nationality. Go figure it out.

[woeful spruce]

I do need to learn how to get more exposure to my work. The way promotions are handed out at jobs are a very imperfect system full of biases and heuristics.

[acoustic wolf]

My friend was an engineer for several years in the semiconductor industry. He said he worried about stuff like that a lot, but that in the end a lot of the things he made just kind of got tossed aside anyways. It's the company's fault, not any of the workers'

[woeful spruce]

Agreed. That will be a huge challenge, to conjure up an alibi for leaving so soon.

[leaden knot]

This is everywhere. There can't be a people-based objective system

[delicate bane]

i find that (not saying this is the case here) many times engineers may solve the wrong issue, and they may not solve the right problem without incorporating more feedback from stakeholders. thus leading to a low-impact project

[near ocean]

IMHO as a zoomer junior dev, you shouldnt rely on promotions or promise of raises
My personal gameplan is to job hop every 1-2years

[woeful spruce]

Yea. It does upset me a bit. Extroversion has a huge advantage with that type of system.

[acoustic wolf]

I had a career question. I'm currently the lead author of a paper for some work I did at my college coding some DNA analysis for a professor. I have an AA degree, some kind of IT certificate from my college, and next semester I only need to take one class to get a small sort of bs "programming certification" from my college. If I spend next semester getting an A+ certification along with that programming certificate, do you guys think that would be enough for me to get a programming job?

[delicate bane]

yeah but i think one advantage, and ive seen this done well for introverts, is written communication and getting very good at documentation + written communication (this actually goes a LONG way and further than you would expect tbh)

[summer roost]

That's pretty clearly a strawman. There's no reason to resort to this sort of rhetoric.

[woeful spruce]

Job hopping is the new norm. As much as I hate interviews, it is the best way to increase salary. Not sure how easy it is to get a leadership role by hopping, but that is ok.

[leaden knot]

And you ping me but not Mario exactly because?

[lapis wind]

If I remember correctly people are most likely to change jobs in the first two years

[summer roost]

because I was responding to you...

[delicate bane]

especially if you can write in a way that makes it SUPER EASY for other devs to take your work and build with it. another way to drive impact @woeful spruce

[woeful spruce]

It does?

I guess if your manager and coworkers look at the documentation. I personally agree though, it is a valuable skill.

[acoustic wolf]

So far pretty much every employer has tried to lie to me about wages and bonuses. My current boss said we'd be getting a 2k bonus but only gave us 1.5k. They don't deserve your loyalty

[leaden knot]

What rhetoric should I use to heavily suggest that discrimination based on nationality should not be encouraged?

[vapid jay]

Had a friend doing 5th year with a company. Im looking to do the same

[summer roost]

you seem to be determined to construe mariosis's comments in bad faith. I would like you not to do that.

[delicate bane]

if your API is used in many other peeps' work, i would say it is tough to NOT have impact, yknow?

[woeful spruce]

I can try doing that. I just hope someone actually reads it. I am skeptical, but, it is worth a shot.

[leaden knot]

I don't see how I can take it in good faith and not be offended by it

[vapid jay]

I do have very strong opinions about mariosis' race. Should I censor him due to his genes? Doesnt sound fair does it?

[buoyant seal]

xD my plan as well. I would imagine that once I reached certain peak of my career i would stop hopping, or if pay raises are keeping up with my market price there could be less point to hop, but whatever.

[surreal trail]

good luck in life

[woeful spruce]

Lots of my work is used by stakeholders outside my department. I would love to see my peers start using some of my functions but, we need to get more organized first. That's for sure. I don't work in the most mature/developed department

[delicate bane]

again, it also comes down to solving for the right problems. if the API isnt useful for other devs, theyre not going to use it, yknow?

so maybe a good first step is making sure you have cleared that preliminary piece of information. maybe even create a PoC to collect further feedback from.

[summer roost]

Let's leave this at: discussions about specific moral or ethical systems should be taken to off-topic channels, not discussed in #career-advice . It is perfectly reasonable for people to choose what jobs they would and wouldn't be willing to work based on their personal moral code.

[woeful spruce]

I do want to develop a method for getting source data from emails to automatically go into our landing zone. Maybe I will start with that.

[delicate bane]

youre leaving to a new company correct? then i would say you can start trying to do this stuff there when you begin since it can be tough to fight against the grain.

[woeful spruce]

No. I have been with my current employer for about 9 months. I hope to at least stay there for 2 years.

[delicate bane]

ah okay. yeah see how far you can go with written communication + documentation. i think people vastly underestimate the impact of those things.

[near ocean]

Yea no idea about this one
I kind of assume it comes naturally after years of experience and a desire to move into a management position
It might not tho, which is one of the few downsides of job hopping
I hope to be at a position financially, at some point, where i could stay at X company for longer and then maybe take on leading and mentoring

[woeful spruce]

In my experience, unfortunately, it rarely gets recognized. But, this is a new experience 😁

[delicate bane]

do you think it is a matter of the company culture? because that might be a factor

[woeful spruce]

Yea, mentoring is fun. It is enjoyable to help junior coworkers develop.

[woeful spruce]

I 100% believe so. What doesn't get noticed doesn't get done. Leadership would have to emphasize it to be noticed.

[vapid jay]

Anyone who switched from engineering to software engineering?

[ivory sluice]

there's a lot of different fields of engineering. could you be more specific?

[naive crescent]

Is it better to apply for internships as early as possible? Like will it affect my chances

[delicate bane]

the earlier you apply, the better

[dusk gull]

What's the latest you would recommend someone to start learning python from scratch if they want to be able to enter the workforce by 22 (end of college)

Like I'm 14 rn and I see everyone around me developing full fledged apps and whatnot so I'm just wondering how long it took them to get to that level, and what kind of jobs I could get with around 3 years of experience

[summer roost]

you do not need to know how to code before entering a computer science degree program, though it may make it easier to hit the ground running if you already know the basics.

[true harness]

according to a few professors, there's no difference between the people who know how to code and those who don't prior to uni after the introductory courses

[kind marsh]

Learning python and the basics of coding is more of something you can learn within the span of months i'd say, having 8 years to learn it is probably ample time

[dusk gull]

Aight tysm

[summer roost]

I believe that, but the intro courses can be rough for people who've never seen a text editor or conditional before.

I think a little bit of previous experience can make the intro courses much easier to get through without getting demoralized.

[daring root]

do you guys know any good resources to find mentors in the field?

[vapid jay]

channels like this I would say.

[coarse crag]

i think usually, you will find a mentor at work. like if you get a job as a junior in a field, there will be someone from your company who will guide you i think.

or, you can find mentors online, but it will be hard, what will they gain from mentoring you? not much. so, not many people are willing to mentor someone. unless you show great potential.

and i genuinely think that, you don't really need a mentor who guide your every move. just getting advices from people who are currently a senior in the field you are interested in is enough imo. like, you ask them once in a while whether what you're trying to do is good for you in the future or not.

and i agree with @ stryngs that this is a good place to ask for career-related advices. but probably not for finding mentors.

[tame forge]

Hey guys I want a suggestion about something:
I am currently doing a Data science course by IBM on coursera and learning python. I am comfortable with fundamentals in python.
This semester my uni has Data science as well as a java programming course (java course is quite core and theoretical btw- about working of java and stuff)
And I personally want to learn python too.
I am also looking to start with DSA asap.

The confusion is how should I do stuff?
Should I learn java along with python for uni course and also learn DSA in java
or
should i just continue with python, doing DSA in python but just do some basic java for uni exams
or
something else.

PS- I will be sitting for placements in about 10-12 months so have to get decent with DSA by that time as well.
and i started DS course coz I cant decide the subfield i like. ML/DS seemed interesting and I thought just do something rather than thinking.

Your suggestions would be very valuable for me.

[crude moon]

If you want to be a data scientist, I would not bother with java for now, stick to python. I have worked with and hired a lot of data scientists, none do java, they all do python, some R, but I wouldnt go that route. Java is more for if you want to be a machine learning engineer.

[tame forge]

See the thing is I am totally not sure what to do as of now. super confused lol
I prefer machine learning > Data science.
I did this course coz it covers basics: python basics, data handling, webscraping, visualization and stuff and coz i had to study it for uni..

I might go into Data engineering coz I find automation interesting and its more of software engineering that data science.
I will be working for an year or 2 to see if I like industry and clear up mind b4 masters.

But from what i hear its better to do DSA in java or C++ so....

[crude moon]

Both great routes, I would do the Java if you are unsure. This knowledge will make you a better data scientist and data science will make you a better data engineer. So it cannot hurt either way. Data engineers work very closely with data scientists, often putting their work in to production.

You could also end up becoming a machine learning engineer which is one of the highest paid roles out there. Which is basically a bit of both data engineering and machine learning

C++ is good, but there are less roles available. However, if you know c or c++, learning other languages is very easy.

[tame forge]

just to clear it up i dont really like core data science, it lacks software engineering thing imo
I would get into machine learning instead.

but yeah.
I have to do python too (atleast for next ~3 months)
(altho as i said its not very deep python ig)
so should i start with java as well and do DSA in it while applying python for data science/ml?

[crude moon]

Ok, I think data science and machine learning are interchangeable, so we might be talking about different things 🙂 I hire data scientists to do machine learning.

All my data scientists are good engineers, but I know some data science teams only do jupyter notebooks and do not know much engineering.

[tame forge]

ye i dont like the latter here 😅

[crude moon]

It's becoming a bit more common for them to learn better engineering now. There is MLOps, with BentoML, etc. So it depends what company or team you join, thats the same as data engineers though, some teams are a lot less advanced

[tame forge]

ye
i like the ops part 😅
so is java useful there?

[crude moon]

I have not met many data scientists that know or use Java. But, if you are unsure, then do it. The principles you learn can be applied anywhere.

You can get a data engineering job using python, but the teams that use scala / java are often more advanced.

[tame forge]

I see.
just for the upcoming year or 2 after my bachelors I just want to get any job exp as i plan to do masters (not able to do right after bachelors which was earlier the plan coz of some reasons)

[crude moon]

The more you learn the more options youll have. Though for grad jobs thats not always true, as youll be going in as a junior and get training on the job so they will care less about what you have done. I also hire react people with no java and train them in that

leaving now, dm me if you have any more questions..

[tame forge]

well last ques..
whats main right now is DSA (what I have been told by my seniors)
so would doing in java provide any adv.?

[crude moon]

whats main right now is DSA.. Not sure I understand that?

[tame forge]

i mean i was told to focus on data structures and algorithms to a decent level as companies in my uni rely mostly on a test on them

[crude moon]

Yes, thats good advice

[tame forge]

so for that, would doing in java be better or is python good enough

[crude moon]

DSA knowledge is transferable between languages. Some languages support more advanced implementations, but if you understand the principles, thats good enough. Interview questions dont usually care about language

[tame forge]

ight.
i see
thanx a lot for ur advice 🙂

[coarse mural]

https://www.facebook.com/codingparadox join here bro great content

[tame forge]

this seems like an adv. 🤔

[leaden knot]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[analog sun]

https://tenor.com/view/rule1-discord-rule-discord-mod-rule6276-admin-gif-25093281

[vapid jay]

Anyone who switched from aerospace engineering to software engineering?

[dense mesa]

I went from engineering to software engineering

[vapid jay]

Cool! What type of engineering?

[dense mesa]

General, mostly manufacturing and operations

[vapid jay]

Cool, I am considering to switch to software engineering as well.
In Europe the salaries for AE are just too low, and working in the US is pretty much prohibited in that sector. Hopefully software engineering opens more doors for me. How was the transition for you and what convinced you to make this decision?

[dense mesa]

That was a similar thought process for me. It took a while at the beginning to get my head round learning to program, but was alright in the end. Main decision being career opportunities

[vapid jay]

How long have you been in the industry? As I am really new to this field, I am trying to build my github but what kind of projects would be interesting/relevant?

[dense mesa]

I started working as a software engineer very recently after graduating engineering this summer. Do any projects you can to begin with, that will help you figure out what you enjoy and where to go further

[buoyant seal]

the most important is enthusiasm. Do what you trully desire 🙂
https://c.tenor.com/dd-y_9vIzXEAAAAd/what-is-it-you-desire-tom-ellis.gif

The only relevant thing is preferably doing projects within your specialization you chose to have.
If it is data science -> they should be having preferably high data science percentage in them
if backend -> they should be preferably having high backend percentage in them

[warm onyx]

😄

[buoyant seal]

In the end any project contains merge of multiple fields though
the best when you orient it for some real user usage case scenarious imo (hehe User Case Driven Development), but it would be probably possible only for later stages.

[delicate bane]

surprised you didnt mention devops

[buoyant seal]

https://c.tenor.com/qUu8WVMj81EAAAAC/ghost-boo.gif
ghost whispers: DevOps!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7Ut7Cx_Wrs

[delicate bane]

haha youre gonna get in trouble for going off-topic

anyway, any advice when two coworkers get into an "argument" aka heated discussion of sorts

i just came from a meeting where i was the third person and kind of listened in while the two people pushed back on each other. i supported person B though since what they said made sense.

so maybe now my relationship with person A suffered

[errant rose]

Help to find why i can use python

[vapid jay]

LMAO

[shut dew]

Hi guys, anyone who knows about any job openings for software/senior software dev in UK or CA, i currently work at amazon india and would love to explore remote opportunities outside.

ok generalising, anywhere where work VISA is not required 😐

[delicate bane]

my understanding is you need a visa for jobs based out of places even if its remote. due to the purposes of tax regulations.

[shut dew]

ookayy

[silk yoke]

Just got an interview for a backend engineer 1 position , my first software dev job… what should i expect and what expecting of me ? I am proficient in python and ok at django, and js.

[buoyant seal]

Too long to answer, but essentially nothing to which u can prepare within short time.

Your DSA
Your SQL and ORM
Your clean code and Refactoring
Your automated testing skills
Your problem solving thinking
Your soft skills
Your code architecturing skills
Your language syntax tricks knowing
Your GIT skills

It all depends on available time and qualification of interviewer
Not really much expected from people getting first job though.

Just independency to dig for problem solution is usually checked and DSA possibly

[silk yoke]

DSA?

[buoyant seal]

Data structures and Algorithms.

[silk yoke]

So they are really expecting me to learn on the fly more than be skilled in all aspects?

[buoyant seal]

For first time Devs? 100% sure

[buoyant seal]

Or they can be idiots not realising how much Devs need to know to do their job in a good way. Really common too. Your chances to fill gaps in the process xD

[silk yoke]

Ok they are fully aware i am self taught, and i dont have a CS degree but rather a BA… i was a UX manager at a start up before but not sure if that helped with me getting a interview

[buoyant seal]

I knew possibly less than u a at my first job. I had CS degree really heavy onto math though

[smoky quest]

They will be asking themselves:

• Do you demonstrate the skills and experience required for the job?
• Do the demonstrated skills and experience meet the minimum bars they have set?
• For any gap in skill or experience, would they feel confident you can catch up with appropriate help and time?

[gilded valley]

When hiring juniors at my company, two important tests are:

• Do they already have some subset of the skills we value
• Do they seem like they will be the kind of person who will pick up the rest of the skills we value

[trail turret]

What can a 15 yo do after completing the PCEP certification to keep Python constancy?

[smoky quest]

Read on stuff and make projects and have fun!

[surreal trail]

can i learn python only and start programming on python only?

no other programming languages

[balmy spade]

Yes, you can learn python and program in python. You will learn other languages/tools along the way quite naturally usually. Great question for #python-discussion

[open mirage]

How do you declare a variable in python again?

[surreal trail]

thank you i feel like python will help me alot to letting me learn other programming languages as a freshman that just started learning how to code.

but i just really want to stick with python and not waste my time learning other programming languages tbh

[summer roost]

It's not a waste. Most real world jobs will require you to know and use multiple languages, and to be able to switch between them.

[surreal trail]

i can do all my work with python ey?

i can master python

when it comes to employment i can show all my skills done on python

[summer roost]

almost certainly not.

[surreal trail]

you mean python is limited?

[pulsar drum]

No, he means this

Most real world jobs will require you to know and use multiple languages, and to be able to switch between them.

[surreal trail]

alright thanks

[smoky quest]

And that's not all!
Languages are just tools, means to an end. Multiple languages exist because they do fill a need or approached problems in a way that is interesting.
Some of these approach will also frame problems in complete different ways (ex: functional, oop, logic), and thus there is value to learn about them to expand your mind and way of thinking, even if you won't necessarily use them in your day to day work in the future.

But as a freshman, if python is your first language, then focus on learning it first. You will still have time to learn about more languages later.

[lusty sparrow]

I'm just starting out learning python on my own, what would be a good small project to create on my own to learn by doing?

[summer roost]

This channel is about jobs and careers. You'd have better luck asking that in #python-discussion

[brave matrix]

fuck im jealous, imagine if I started learning Python 5 years ago, I could've been a Senior dev already

[brave matrix]

I need ideas for making a Data engineer/ analyst project

Would these two projects be considered Backend ?
https://github.com/shner-elmo/TradeZero_API
https://github.com/shner-elmo/pandas-db

[stoic timber]

the TradeZero_API not, it's just Selenium scraping the front-end to get data that some other back-end offered
the Pandas DB not 100% sure, but at least alot more than the other one

[drifting violet]

hello y'all

https://aldiiii234.github.io/quizproject/main.html

is this quiz project valid as a junior front end dev?

the ui kinda sucks but long story

[true harness]

if you want to be a front end dev, shouldn't the UI not suck

[drifting violet]

youre absolutely right but as i said long story

[gritty rivet]

You can always apply for jobs and see what happens, but it's in your interest to make sure your portfolio is a good representation of your skills. If this is your only project and you have no relevant experience, strengthening your portfolio is a worthwhile goal for sure

[drifting violet]

sure gonna do

thank you appreciate it

[vapid jay]

web dev

[tepid zephyr]

How does one become a dev for nvidia AI stuff like Omniverse... where do we learn this stuff and what do companies look for when hiring

[peak halo]

generally speaking, it's exceptionally difficult to start an AI career in industry without advanced degrees related to AI. (And if you want an AI career in academia, then obviously you'd need a PhD.) So, you would learn it in university.

[plucky gulch]

Is it possible to earn through free lancing using python? Btw I am still in high school so part-time?

[true harness]

yes, it's possible, but probably less than you would at McDonald's or something. it's difficult to convince someone to trust a high schooler to build something

[brisk arch]

I just created a library that lets you draw a graph in a line!!

[tepid zephyr]

Ugh I thought so, I have a computer science bachelor, but can't pursue a masters atm (financial reasons) so guess I'm stuck with the normal stuff for now

[peak halo]

Does your current employer do anything AI related? if so, does your employer support people who want to move to different domains within the company?

[tepid zephyr]

No I wish, its just a job that's sucking the life out of me. ASP.Net Webforms project management app for construction.... very unmotivating and no regards to employees

[vapid jay]

guys who was testing the projects random (yes or no) ?

[lime tartan]

Came here to vent. I made it through 3 rounds of interviews for a particular IT support role. Absolutely loved the place and the people and the type of work I would do. The pay was meh but acceptable given I was trying to career switch with this role (chemist to IT). Just found out today I didn't get the role. Let me begin by saying this guy sent the message at 4:59, the last minute of the day. I felt like that was a coward move. Then goes on to state "you were fantastic.....you will do great whatever you do." Hmmm yeah? Then why didn't I get the role if you believe I was fantastic and great at what I do? Like that's a hypocritical statement which makes him seem like even more of a coward. To add for more context, this is a small place that has 10 or so working at headquarters and they franchise out the business aspect. So all of this seems like he's never really done someone he liked dirty before.

[buoyant seal]

U were great in soft skills
But your hard skills lacked too much
They decided teaching you would take too much effort so that u could do the job

Or at least that is my guess
Or the opposite

[pulsar drum]

You're being too negative. I fail to see how those actions are cowardly on their part. And I don't understand how giving complements or praise is hypocritical in this situation. You can be good, but another candidate could have ultimately been better.

[gritty rivet]

Try not to take it personally. You will get rejected at various times throughout your career. Sometimes you may know why but often you won't. There are all kinds of companies that treat people poorly out there. Stay focused on what's under your control and move on

[gritty rivet]

I'll also mention that I relate to where you are at... I moved from sociology to basic IT support to Python developer over the past 5 years. Changing careers is hard but will pay off in time!

[buoyant seal]

Let it go 😄
https://youtu.be/L0MK7qz13bU

U get used to rejections eventually. People even get their jobs after being rejected 200 times

[vapid jay]

I hear no one ever thinks they are ready when they get into a company, it's scary. Then they realize they were ready all along. I don't feel ready myself, but maybe I am wrong. I know speech recognition, tkinter, flask (I actually understand http pretty good if I say so myself), APIs, threads, classes. I used to use Kali Linux maybe 3 years ago to about 1 year ago. So I know Linux too, at least debian since Kali runs on it. I am not sure if I need anything else. Do I sound ready? If not, what could I learn?

[delicate bane]

the chances of your future company's tech stack matching up with your skills exactly 100% is low so keep that in mind.

whats stopping you from applying, getting feedback, and reassessing yourself?

[vapid jay]

I'm not sure if I'd waste their time by doing that. They all want like AWS and stuff like that. I've only done aws once, so I'm not 100% sure

[delicate bane]

ah cloud skills are very valuable; part of why i got my position (which isnt even a true dev position) was some aws experience.

do you think your other skills make you competitive enough? if not, do you think it would be useful to get more experience with aws?

or would your time better be spent on other skills?

[vapid jay]

Ah yes, and I believe they make me competitive enough but learning aws sounds important. Like a slight more of an advantage. But what if you don't match the description for the job? Since you said it will rarely match. Do you just apply and possibly learn later?

[delicate bane]

just go ahead and apply. companies usually put a wish list and very rarely do candidates meet that list 100% (if they do, they should be aiming for higher roles imo).

in the meantime, maybe its worthwhile doing a project using some of these services, focusing on 2-3 of the most common ones for devs (they have a lot that fall under the free tier).

just remember, cloud 101: if you turn something on, remember to turn it off...otherwise

[vapid jay]

Alright so I'm thinking a GUI app that sends messages to a server hosted on AWS. So a chat app maybe, and the messages could save on mongodb

[delicate bane]

theres a few messaging services on AWS, you can host with EC2, dynamodb is the mongodb equivalent, and you can probably set up HTTP stuffs with API gateway. we'll leave it there since more would be off-topic for this channel lol

[vapid jay]

Ah yes we really are getting off topic lol

[delicate bane]

but yeah having a project using those services would def be a boost to your resume

[rotund kindle]

If this is on topic: anyone have any thoughts on how to deal with the feels when your startup starts shutting down? I'll miss my scrappy tech team.

[buoyant seal]

Recruiters like to contact when u have 95%+ matching though
That is why passive income of invitations is cool

Btw, funny video related to education often raised at a topic here https://youtube.com/shorts/BBo1WVMkXuo?feature=share

[delicate bane]

yeah and they offer like abysmal $ though

[buoyant seal]

Only 2% of startups succeed. Get used. Talk to someone. Accept

[delicate bane]

i think another approach could be just staying in touch with your group. if you guys were really close, then maybe its worth planning stuff together every once in a while

(if this is local; could be harder if remote)

[rotund kindle]

We're all remote and several different time zones, but maybe I can collect them into a channel somewhere. Good idea.

[delicate bane]

yeah. it goes a long way and you guys can stay in touch with one another

share memes and whatnot lol

and you never know, maybe one of you will have job openings at your future company and another one of you might be looking at the time

[smoky quest]

Take a break. Recharge, disconnect and have some fun.

[last flume]

I am new , and i am thinking of start programming so without college degree can I able to find a job

[smoky quest]

You can find a job, but that won't be the same type of job or career.
If you are in high school or college age, then going for a college degree will be the easiest path with the most opportunities

[gloomy mesa]

What do you mean by that? I'm pretty interested as well since I've finally decided to get back into coding full force

[last flume]

But If I can't afford college fee then
What I need to do i just 12 th pass out and in my family there is no person who guide me
@smoky quest

[smoky quest]

Think about a handyman VS a contractor. The handyman will do the small jobs around the house but the big and expensive ones will be for the people who have a license/bonded/etc.

[gloomy mesa]

got you

[smoky quest]

So someone without a degree can find a job, and generally the easiest path is in webdev, but they won't work at the fancy companies on the large and complex projects. And because they don't have a degree, they will be paid less and it will take more time to climb the ladder

These compound quite a bit over a career.

[last flume]

And if i graduate from a poor college then could i grab some good package if possible??
@smoky quest

[smoky quest]

It's a lot more important to graduate. There are some benefit to graduate from a better college, but the difference is not as large as graduating or not.
So prioritize graduating with a BS/MS over which college

[last flume]

I am just 20 year old and i don't want to go in college and read their for four year .. if i practice hard and become a webdev and i apply for job then there my life will be settled or not from your point of view??
@smoky quest

[smoky quest]

You can do whatever you want.
If you practice hard and become a webdev, then you will be paid like a webdev who did not graduate. That's entirely up to you.
Also be aware of your competition. There are many people like you being attracted by the field. So it's a lot of work to stand out

[last flume]

Thank for your valuable time brother @smoky quest
But probably how much I can earn in starting in webdev, without degree , is company judge people who have degree and one who have not , is salary are different

[smoky quest]

It depends on the location.
But the difference could be between 20-40k and go bigger over time

Note that after 5 years, the employers may care less, but there is a compounding effect. The people with the degree where able to go further and faster into the problems, climb the ladder higher and were able to claim a higher salary all this time (they won't change jobs for a lower salary, so it has to go even higher).

So 3-5 years of school may sound like a lot right now, but it's nothing over a 40 years career

And also note that compensation is a bit more complicated than regular jobs as the stock/options can amount to quite a bit on top of the base.

[smoky quest]

I have also hired and worked with many self-taught engineers. None of them recommend their path and all of them recommend people to get a degree. That should speak for itself.

[last flume]

Ok from your point of view
I just go for a degree
In computer science engineering

[smoky quest]

What's your situation?

[last flume]

My situation is
I paas my secondary education
And i love computer and coding
That's why I thinking of taking a online course of python Web dev,
And after that if i am good in webdev so I get hired.. this is my thinking and this is easiest way and it takes only 1year or more than 1and half ..

And another is going into college and read their for four years
So what is best for me
Please help me bro
I just need your guidance
@smoky quest

[smoky quest]

yeah, I would go for the degree, especially if it's not an ability problem
It's a lot of fun, you see a lot of different topics and that will open up your career to many more opportunities.

Trying to save 2-3 years now is like penny-wise, pounds foolish.

[summer roost]

you think that the easiest path to getting a job as a software developer is taking one web dev course and then applying for jobs. That is not the easiest path, the easiest path is spending 4 years learning a great deal about the theory and practice of computer programming. You'll find that it's much harder to enter the work force after only 1 year of a web dev course, because you'll be competing for entry level jobs with people who went to college and got 3 more years of education than you, and people who got internships, and people who developed deep subject matter expertise in particular focus areas, like databases or artificial intelligence or distributed systems.

[smoky quest]

If people were able to get the same outcome while skipping 3 years, no one would go to college 😉

[gloomy mesa]

for 2 years now, I've been really thinking about going to college but you guys have really opened my eyes in a matter of minutes lol 'preciate it guys

[last flume]

Doing btech from private colleges
Is worth

[iron lichen]

How can I start learning python. Can anyone provide me some best courses available ?

[last flume]

I can't clear exam because that are too though and u know in my area there is know Prosper college
In this case what I need to do please help
@smoky quest
@summer roost

Should I go for private colleges that are not popular..
@smoky quest

[summer roost]

I'll be honest, I'm not terribly familiar with India's system. I don't think any of the regulars in this channel are. I know that in western Europe and North America, a degree from even an unpopular university is much more highly valued than a boot camp or web dev course. It's possible that the story is different in India - you may want to ask around in a different forum where you may get better advice for your location.

[vapid jay]

just go to college to get a degree (many companies look for bachelors degree)
and do some work for people for small companies build something for them and showcase your work on github,

when you apply for jobs after graduation they don't even look at your college name (if it not MIT, Stanford, etc.)
But they do see your before hiring you.

[wicked harness]

idk what job i want in coding

there are too many, how do i know which one to chose?

[leaden knot]

First thing I'd worry about is licensing. The second thing I'd worry about is benchmarking. This is if all you care about is the product.

A deeper thing to judge from this(these?) incident(s) is the person's integrity. This means what you/your company should do, if anything at all, ties to how it balances between caring about integrity and just shipping things out. You might not be the person to make this call, and in that case all you can do is inform

[smoky quest]

I would look at it the other way around: What is the desired expected outcome and how does it match with what you observe?
If the required work matches that (and the licenses are ok), then what's wrong with it?
If the required work doesn't match that, then that's a different path

Note that if it's the first option, I would also suggest to look for a more interesting job 😉

I agree with you. That seems to point to a gap in some skills.
The part where I am not as clear is if that gap is a problem or not.

[smoky quest]

yeah don't bring that up publicly.
If you have some concerns, it's best to bring them to the team lead or manager.

But note also that you were able to articulate some issues created by that gap as it prevented your team to have more maintenable and performant code

[leaden knot]

I think some of the things in your company are questionable but maybe someone here who's a more senior dev can say something. As to backlash I don't think it's important unless you think the person will literally harm you. But yes to bringing things up tactfully privately, it will reflect well on you. (And reflect poorly on you if you do it publicly)

[tidal pine]

Thanks for the insights

both of you. Perhaps I should wipe the messages here with the semi-specific details

[prisma canyon]

hi

[lofty quartz]

What is the future of an EC engineer?

[last flume]

Hii

[gritty rivet]

What is an EC engineer?

[icy spire]

Hi, I have a question
is it worth to add pong game and snake game to your resume?

[tidal pine]

Yo! What's good?

[tidal pine]

Pong or Snake Game to your resume might depend on who you're submitting resumes to. If you're going for game companies, then I think I would enjoy seeing Snake and Pong github urls that I could check out.

If you're applying to banking institutions, probably not so much lol

[icy spire]

damn, I thought it would be good to show off any project 😅
but thanks!

[tidal pine]

It is good to show them off, very good, but I'd think about it in terms of "who my target audience is"

You can have written the most elegant and beautiful code for a snake or pong game, and end up completely turn off an interviewer at a company who operates in a highly regulated industry because "creativity" is something they are actively attempting to avoid

[icy spire]

interesting

[tidal pine]

That said, personally, I strongly recommend always showing off the things you've built which you are proud of.

My advice about who to present your games to in a resume is purely pragmatic. Personally, I would (and have) let what I am proud of which I display filter out the jerks who I wouldn't want to work with/for, and attract the people I do.

So, go for it on your resume! Just make sure you're applying at companies who your displays of pride will hook with and be congruent with the most.

[icy spire]

Maybe at least I will stand out and they will remember me haha 😅

[honest pivot]

I don't think you should assume people in banking are going to judge you for writing games. All sorts of people enjoy games. And clean, performant code is clean, performant code. What you should look for is how to relate your experiences to what the job needs, and being able to draw connections to game code is certainly within the realm of possibility.

[tidal pine]

Standing out is way more important than most employment seeking people comprehend most of the time.

[icy spire]

I've already understood it since I've been looking for a job for a few months

but i was afraid

[tidal pine]

Good, and! Do you know the ways you want to stand out which are rarely seen in resumes?

Not asking to grill you, just posing the question so you're brain is primed to ask it internally.

I've got two pro-tips form being hired in the last month after 4 months of having a nightmare of a time finding new work.

(If you're curious)

[icy spire]

oh, what pro tips?

[tidal pine]

A bit of setup

The first "pro-tip" is something I've heard countless times before but apparently it's become especially effective recently, but with one strategic alteration over before.

The second "pro-tip" is totally subjective, and might not fit everyone's personal style, but I've gotten the best "resume impression" feedback ever from implementing it.

[worldly trail]

I'll bite. What pro tips?

[tidal pine]

Disclaimer: These worked for me, they are just conceptual suggestions and food for thought, not meant to be taken as gospel or even hard recommendations (necessarily). Also, what I write here are direct observations and impressions gained from my recent experience of aggressive job seeking/interviewing for 4 months straight, leading to one of the best jobs I've ever had (so far)

"Pro-Tip" the First: If you do nothing else, and if you really like the company you've interviewed for, write them a personal and specifically detailed thank you letter (describing how much of a positive impact the interview had and what the conversations meant to you (upon reflection)).

This is kind of a commonly heard one, but probably not as well practiced one, but there is a caveat to consider.

Only write a thank you letter if the company and the type of work you would be doing is very meaningful to you personally.

From Real Life:

After 3 months, I finally found two companies building automation software which affects and controls real world systems. For the last 10+ years, I've just worked at whatever software company because the fit and pay was decent, but I wouldn't say I was "inspired" at work daily. It was until I interviewed with these two companies, that I realized exactly the kind of field(s) of work I wanted to work in. I felt like a kid again, excited about the prospect of working on systems which actually control real world physical things, not just boring old enterprise software.

I told this to the recruiter I was working with, and she immediately said, "OMG! Write a thank you letter right now and say exactly how you feel, thanking them for the opportunity to talk to them and what your revelation about the kind of work you're only interested in doing now as a result of the interview conversation."

So I did exactly that. It felt silly at first, a bit naked (in the British sense of the word), but I got a call back the next day saying they loved and appreciated the thank you letter and that they wanted to move forward with me.

I found out later that the thank you letter was a massive contributor to pushing me well beyond the competition I was facing for the position in terms of standing out. My letter was very sincere and honest, and I was told that this level of realism was a big help.

A bit long winded of a Pro-Tip, but it's honestly one of the most important I've encountered for getting all the way through the interview process and landing the gig.

The final caveat to this "Pro-Tip" is, make sure you actually really want to work for the company you're writing a thank you latter to, make it personal and real, and don't be afraid of expressing positive revelations if you have them from the interview process.

PS I just realized I was supposed to stay within the bounds of "Pro-Tips" for resumes and I totally blew that out of the water.

[worldly trail]

That's good advice. Agree with both of those points. I've done interviews and hiring (not with anything programming related) and I found the whole experience to be exhausting and that I was far more "judgmental" of the candidates than I anticipated I would ever be. I think the impressions that left me the most sure about a candidate was when someone was a mix of excited for the opportunity, willing to be flexible and learn, confident about what they know and not afraid to admit what they don't know.

[tidal pine]

Ok Ok!

"Pro-Tip" the Second (Resume Edition) Tell a story on the first page of your resume. Most people dryly list all of the languages and frameworks and technology stacks they have experience with, sometimes even in a freakin' table in a Word doc... (I used to do that...)

If you want to stand out, there is nothing stopping you from making your resume (truthfully) narratively driven rather than data driven. You can even put easter eggs in your resume and see who notices them for a bit of connective fun (more on this later)

From Real Life:

I cannot tell you how overwhelmingly positive my resume became received after I transformed the first page to an actual 3 part narrative chronicled story of my experience over the last 10+ years.

I took a massive risk (I thought) in re-writing my resume to include an Act 1, Act 2 and Act 3 on page one, with subtitles!

I took an even bigger risk in making the subtitles for each act the lyrics to "A Whole New World" from Aladdin, which just happened to be playing in my head as I was writing the story of my experiences and journey narratively.

I honestly never thought people would respond so positively to this kind of resume, I was just allowing myself to be a bit off the wall but respectful to the truth of my experiences and without being overly silly.

What I learned from getting feedback about my resume is just how much it stood out over other resumes. The narrative first page still listed all of the frameworks, languages, and tech stacks I commonly work with today and other specific details like that from the last 10+ years, but it was framed in such a way which felt human (as I was told).

The people whole recognized the Aladdin easter egg LOVED it, but the one thing I heard the most from literally everyone, recruiters over the phone, interviewers, and even random people on LinkedIn who happened to find me and read it, is just how much my resume stands out because it's written in a refreshing and unique way.

I really liked learning how well my resume resonates with people now. It's rather fun, even if I didn't go forward with a company, I did get a lot of first calls and conversations because a lot of people were just curious to talk to me (again, so I was told many times).

If I'm going to make a prediction about the nature of stand out resumes, it's that there is massive opportunity which no one is expressing in creating a narrative structure over a dry table of tool experience.

[gritty crystal]

is there someone i can privately chat wif who is taking software engineering

just need help with discussing with my career

[buoyant seal]

why not to ask in public?

much more opinions would be delivered, by any people asynchronously available

coroutines for the win

[icy spire]

oh god, thanks for wanting to describe so many things from your experience

[tidal pine]

Lol, just the tip of the tip of the iceberg

But you are most welcome

[tidal pine]

Wish I could right now, but DM me later today if you want and I can answer some of your questions hopefully

[gritty crystal]

sure do

[icy spire]

For me, this long story in the resume would not work and that's for sure, but it is very interesting that someone wanted to be interested in it
and as for writing letters, I will definitely use it ☺️

[tidal pine]

It wasn't a "long" story exactly, it was just three simple paragraphs (more or less)

[cyan furnace]

Hey is there anyone who is doing freelancing in the field of ML.I am new and want to learn from them.

[near ocean]

Could you show us?

[tidal pine]

Sure, but not this minute

[ebon trellis]

Need some assistance with a assignment in python can any one pm me?

[raw rapids]

Take a help channel

[true harness]

surely that took up a bunch of space? did you have to take other content off?

[tidal pine]

No, I didn't take up extra space from what I already had there, but I don't have a before and after to show you

[true harness]

that's pretty surprising. mine (and other people's I've seen) are completely packed, no space for anything else

[vapid jay]

open source ?

[tidal pine]

Mine was completely packed with details about the tech stacks and all that crap. But, it was getting very dry, boring, and I found myself not wanting to read my own resume, so I just restructured the details into something fun and more palatable.

@true harness @near ocean I'll DM you a quick screenshot of how It's written. I think it's a slightly older version than the newest

[true harness]

ah. because you have more than 1 page. in the US, resumes are 1 page. i wouldn't have enough space for even a tiny summary 😦 (without removing stuff)

[near ocean]

Yea most I got is an objective summary at the top and thats 2 lines

[honest pivot]

I have versions that are 2, 3, and 4 pages, but I don't think I could squeeze things into 1 page anymore.

[dark lintel]

Hi

Does anyone know where to look for international remote jobs? I have experience as a Data Engineer and live in Argentina, latin america. Thanks

[vapid jay]

hi can anybody teach me some python

[half sigil]

Hi i am about to learn python but i dont know what after i learn python

[livid nebula]

BECOME DATA SCIENTIFIC BRO TRUST ME

[half sigil]

It's hard

[livid nebula]

nah itz ez actually
and hard cuz dunno how but after 2 yearz exp its ez

but if u have speed skip skill it will be ez in 1 week

[half sigil]

I want that can land me job in sort time like 3 4 months i am actually free right now so i can fully fucus on it tha i can think about data science

[livid nebula]

jobstreet ez 1 sec find u job (if the office in ur country tho)

[livid nebula]

big salary in usa

[half sigil]

I m not from usa

[livid nebula]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfscVS0vtbw 4 hour beginner course

[half sigil]

I have a course in udemy i know besic

[livid nebula]

u really want to be data science ??

[half sigil]

No

Some other thing can u suggest

[livid nebula]

data visualization

[vapid jay]

I want to code a game

[half sigil]

What that

[livid nebula]

so cute XD

[vapid jay]

What The Emoji?

[livid nebula]

i short the data and u visual the data cuz data is number and u make it like pharagraph or volume so that the boss of indusrty ez to understand it

[livid nebula]

XD xdxd thats the emote wdym xdxdxdd

[vapid jay]

Um whatever

[half sigil]

Roadmap for this

[livid nebula]

roadmap ??

[half sigil]

Like what programming language to learn framwork etc

[livid nebula]

python libraries

damn imagine work as data scientific and got title The Fixer

[tidal pine]

I am in the US. I have haven't had a 1 page resume in well over 10 years.

Who told you resumes are supposed to be 1 page long? I've never heard of or seen a single page resume unless someone doesn't have a lot of professional experience.

Even if I minimally described my past job responsibilities, my employment history would be like 3 pages long (which is just too much to present imo). I've kept my resume to 2 pages, truncating my employment history to the last 10 years.

[smoky quest]

Rule of thumb is that if your experience is below ~3 years of xp, your resume should fit in one page

beyond that, make it fit within 2-3 pages at most

[tidal pine]

That groks. It's been eons since that era for me, humbling recognitions.

[smoky quest]

as a data point, the majority of the folks on this server aren't adults

[tidal pine]

Hmm... interesting, what are the data points exactly?