career-advice

[covert plaza]

Do you guys apply for jobs that require Bachelor even if you dont have one, if the rest is a match for you?

I'll start applying very soon, but I've been searching for some already, and quite alot ask for Bachelor degree. It seems to be more common on these entry level jobs than in the ones that you need experience (quite understandable tho, but I dont have a degree so it kinda demotivates me)

[dense mesa]

Try and call them, does sound a little suspicious

[delicate bane]

today's presentation in front of non-technical stakeholders went well

especially considering there were execs + the CEO in the audience

[dreamy spade]

How many projects and how much of the quality of the projects do you think I need to put on my GitHub in order to fully maximize my chances of getting employed?

[hearty island]

i tried, radio silence

[gritty rivet]

It doesn't hurt to apply, especially if you're a good fit otherwise

[hearty island]

just gonna move on to other ones

[gritty rivet]

There's no end to "maximize", you can always do more and better. As long as you have something that's a fair representation of your skills, you apply for jobs and hope for the best... If what you have isn't good enough to get where you need to be, then you keep working on your skills and projects

On a resume I think of 3 projects as an ideal number, but it really depends on what you have, what you're applying to, etc

[buoyant seal]

just one if it is large enough xD

usually, when person works, there is not really time for pet projects, i usually have time in my free time only for one serious pet project xD
where i apply maximum of available at that time skills

[delicate bane]

[buoyant seal]

i mean, after work, your free time is divided between learning new stuff (mostly theoretical) and doing pet projects to practice learned stuff xD

u a somehow needing also time to find time after that to relax and socialize

there is actually a way to have multiple pet projects though

if pet project is having its active development finished, it should not be taking a lot of time technically.
The problem is, if you did this project in the long enough past when you skills were far lower.... ergh. u would not wish to show it off, and refactorizing it can be taking as much effort as making new project xD

[delicate bane]

oof. this last point tho

what do you do about this perpetual problem that seems to continue on forever as you progress through your career

💀

[buoyant seal]

ergh. Doing recent pet projects, i start to feel that i am finally able to write code that can potentially live for a much longer time (like... i get rid of code smell very quickly when it appears during development). I am not sure if i am disillusioning or not, but i hope this time it is different.
Finally the knowledge about code architecture started... to merge between different learned resources in my mind.

I haven't finished reading all planned books for that in my curriculum though

[buoyant seal]

It is so easy to mess up code though. I find more and more beauty in golang philosophies regarding code, they really help to keep code less tangled. Kind of recommending to learn golang just for the sake of learning its philosophy. It would be good complimentary experience to learning code architecture in general.
Though mind you it is just an addition. Generic code architecture stuff is still needed being learned

[buoyant seal]

one way to deal with it, is having in pet projects Continuous Refactorization Development btw xD Nothing is developed. U a just refactorizing code until end of times.

[delicate bane]

i--

he really said refactoring until the end of time 💀

[dreamy spade]

Yeah I heard about this suggestion as well. One gigantic excellent project.

[dreamy spade]

What would a gigantic excellent Python project be?

[buoyant seal]

the limit is only a fantasy.
just think about any features/service you desire to implement, experiencing need to have
https://c.tenor.com/dd-y_9vIzXEAAAAd/what-is-it-you-desire-tom-ellis.gif

[buoyant seal]

ergh. Almost literlaly any project that has users in it, comes up with a new features requested by users\

So, just do something that would be used by any even small audience (10+ people at least constantly)

[buoyant seal]

and with more people using your project, you will be eventually facing some scaling problems... you will wish to have better infrastrcture / architecture
and it will become quickly a normal lifecycle of any application, where you choose which requested features to add next, when u wish to take care of infrastructure and scaling, when your project becomes smelling and u wish more refactorizing it. (hopefully it will be remaining clean and refacorized in time/tested throughly at each step of development)

[buoyant seal]

Essentially this is a recipe for big projects: planning probject to which you can add in new releases more features
and trying to do in in production grade / scalable / fault tolerant / secure / clean architectured... everything will add additional amount of time to develop a project
having users as they would introduce even more problems you would not discovery on your own xD

there can be even a problem to define minimal viable product to see at least some of it working version xD and then adding more desired features / scalability stuff to it
considering that it is pet project, you have a free reign to overengineer it in advance.

[violet prairie]

Hi guys!

I am looking at python certifications and I saw python institute has some the first is called PCEP – Certified Entry-Level Python Programmer

Are these certifications industry standard and recognised by employers?

[summer roost]

at least in the US, employers don't care about certificates at all.

[buoyant seal]

i use pet projects to learn new technologies though. having always a major part of a project unfamiliar new top-level technology in it (or even multiple ones)

[summer roost]

a STEM degree, a boot camp, or interesting projects on your github would all be more beneficial to your job search than a certificate program would be

[violet prairie]

For networking which is my field, it is heavily required, I was just looking to get some programming ones on the side

[summer roost]

yep. IT and things like networking do use certs, but programming tends not to

[violet prairie]

thank you!

[summer roost]

if you're looking for a move from a networking position to a software one, maybe it would be beneficial from the PoV of showing another side of you to employers who are used to hiring based on certs?

I could see that if you've got, say, a CCNP already listed, that maybe having a Python cert as well couldn't hurt, if you're trying to move towards the devops side of things. Maybe.

but I wouldn't expect a software engineer hiring manager to care about the certs.

[violet prairie]

I just graduated networking and Security degreee

I'm taking CCNA sometime soon, but I know my employers for getting high end jobs after i've already had a graduate job will be looking for some python experience

so I thought PCEP and PCAP might be good

[summer roost]

well, you know your industry better than me. I was answering from the point of the software engineer industry, and I can say that software engineer hiring managers are unlikely to care about the certs. I'm not sure whether the story might be different for dev ops or network tech or systems administration hiring managers

[dreamy spade]

What is a "pet project" ?

[violet prairie]

Yeah I appreciate your help very much! thank you

has anyone heard of these before? (I know now, that programming doesn't usually require certs but if anyone knows anything could they let me know?)

[buoyant seal]

any project you do as non commercial project in your free time. it should be preferably clearly defined software product you wish to get though.
pet projects are usually personal little projects.... which you develop with extra care and affection. You chose them to be done because you trully desire them.
Technically they can be even commercial projects.
pet projects are often show off of all your skills + little extra on the top to push further

[buoyant seal]

https://mastery.games/flexboxzombies/ https://mastery.games/gif/fbz.gif
this guy made beautiful text quest games to learn frontend syntax things, as different kind of games. Some games are free, some are paid ones.
if he would be earning enough revenue... it could become even full time main job xD

[rotund crest]

I got a pretty respectable job offer today as a Machine Learning Software Engineer. I don't know if it is a slam dunk accept because if I am being honest with myself I really do not think I have the experience suitable for the job and I am confused how I even got this far in the application process.

[buoyant seal]

you know, Nginx famous web server was born as a just a pet project of a russian developer xD He did it in his free time from 200* year. And few years ago sold for N millions of dollars to F5 company

[summer roost]

doesn't seem worthwhile to worry about that. As long as you didn't lie during the application process, they know what they're getting.

[rotund crest]

It really makes me uneasy that they barely asked me any questions about machine learning or software development even if they are a reputable firm. They claim they just want to focus on people that are able to solve problems and think on their feet and that leetcode only gets them so far. I still can't help but doubt they evaluated me enough.

[dreamy spade]

Wow. That's really cool.

[summer roost]

ok, well - you say you're uneasy. What's the worst case scenario?

[rotund crest]

The worst case scenario is that I get laid off within the 90 day probation period and I am unemployed now.

[summer roost]

so you currently have another job, and you would be leaving that other job for this job?

[rotund crest]

Yeah, pretty much

The job is a fairly desirable and difficult to get one, but for all the glamour of the title it is extremely boring

I am probably more risk adverse than I should be because I had to start a job search in February 2020.

That was very much not the most confidence instilling experience that's for sure

[summer roost]

ooh, yeah, that was a tough time to search for jobs 😓

so the cons of accepting the job are that the work is extremely boring, and you're concerned that you're underqualified, and you're concerned about the drop in job security by leaving your current job. The pros are that the job title is glamorous and the firm extending the offer is reputable. What else?

[rotund crest]

Sorry I communicated poorly

Right now my job is fairly desirable, but it is extremely boring. The new job would be much more exciting, but I am pretty worried about that 90 day probation period and how they didn't really test me at all on my capabilities. They mostly cared if I can solve problems.

Currently I work as a Quantitative Analyst for an Energy Company. I am mostly responsible for their commodity pricing models and implementing numerical solutions to stochastic differential equations. That sounds really fancy, but it is about 2% PhD level math you can figure out on stackoverflow, 1% programming and 97% explaining basic concepts to external auditors like "what is a seed" and "why did you choose that seed randomly". That 1% programming really gives me no practical experience in everything from unit testing, to git.

On average, I would say I write 100 lines of code a month.

So when this company declined to even bother to fizzbuzz me or ask me about bubble sort or something, I really can't help but worry.

[summer roost]

the new place may find that someone who understands the math is more important to them than someone with software dev skills.

[rotund crest]

Well, if nothing else, it is a relief that you didn't see this as an immediate and serious red flag so that is helpful

[summer roost]

what sort of questions did they talk about or ask you about?

[rotund crest]

They asked me about what Machine Learning background I had. I told them I had none, but to me Machine Learning is just numerical analysis. It's just input goes in, you do some calculus using gradient descent or newton's method; Linear Algebra with some vector geometry; or some combination of both like a basis expansion technique like a Fourier Series and then an output comes out of your black box. Then I said machine learning doesn't seem very hard if you know Linear Algebra and Calculus.

Then they asked me about some projects I've done, and I told them about grabbing some JSON from an API and manipulating it in a data frame to sort my trading card collection.

They asked me a little bit about my work, but I couldn't talk much about it because all our algorithms are trade secrets so I gave them some very simple problem that was slow that I replaced with a look up table.

Overall, I don't think I said anything too impressive.

[summer roost]

If the company is reputable, that may well just mean that no one else was able to say anything any more impressive than you

[rotund crest]

I need to go, but thank you for listening to me rant a bit. I am a little bit more confident in proceeding after talking with you.

[boreal nimbus]

hi

[summer roost]

hi

[craggy verge]

I need advice (re: self-taught web developer journey)
I took an Intro to CS course in highschool 2 years ago. I learned a little bit of Java then. I didnt continue any coding until recently. About 3 or 4 weeks ago now, I really got into coding and I am now fascinated with front end web development. I first learned basic Python and now I am really getting into HTML, CSS, Bootstrap and basic Javascript. I am wondering what it is I should learn next in addition to advancing what I currently know? Nodejs, react, angular? My goal is to learn enough to get a front end web developer job or at least an internship

Essentially trying to get a job/internship without any experience or degree lol

[tiny mortar]

everything u said

https://roadmap.sh/frontend

what im following

@craggy verge

[serene aurora]

Hi, has anyone here taken Full Stack Open and if so how was it?

[summer roost]

you're still young - is getting a degree an option?

[narrow owl]

Hi, I'm considering immigrating to a non-English speaking country. Crossing the language barrier is of course challenging, but how would I go about learning programming terminology in that language? Of course there's a lot of programming terminology that isn't used in everyday speaking, so it's not like I can just learn it through Duolingo. Any advice is appreciated.

[errant yew]

thanks for sharing this, Ive never seen a detailed map.

[digital fjord]

Most programmers that I know of use English terminology anyway. The exception being academics.

[narrow owl]

Is it acceptable in European countries to write code in English?

[buoyant seal]

in any international project it is... obligation to use English only in code. even in non native, non European countries. Opposite is done only in the lowest companies without code culture at all. English is also often the standard language to communicate.

[narrow owl]

Hm... interesting. Would that mean that me being a native English speaker is a plus rather than a negative in the eyes of employers?

[buoyant seal]

Yes. It would be an absolute positive plus for majority employers among the world xD there is only one exception

[narrow owl]

What's the exception?

[buoyant seal]

two:
you are getting less opportunities in local market
and if boss/clients of company products aren't speaking English, u will not be able to take leader positions to direct software development.

[narrow owl]

Well I plan to be fluent in the native language before permanently living there.

[honest pivot]

Like people have said, there is a good chance that the code will be in English, and that your colleagues will know English to a decent level. There are many tech companies that primarily use English in the office as well, and will list English in the job requirements. Of course you should also learn their language since you'll need to use it in society, and it will also help you make friends and understand the discussions / comments that are not in English.

(I am a native English speaker who has been working in non-English-speaking countries for the last 6 years)

[cyan void]

For consulting and rest api development, should I be learning Flask or should I go with django?

[near ocean]

learn both, usually you'd see flask in startup environments because its simpler and easier to setup and get going with a minimal product, but django holds a bigger chunk of the market

[cosmic dragon]

Most academic publications are in English so not even they are an exception

[peak halo]

I read academic CS papers pretty regularly, and I often read ones that I suspect no native English speaker was involved in the production of.

[true harness]

it's probably true that most are English though

[honest pivot]

Very much true in other subjects as well. But English is still the language of academia.

I did once have to read a mathematics paper in French, so I guess there is still a publishing community in that language. (It was recent)

[timid pumice]

hello

[frosty terrace]

Should I be applying to all experience levels for a role?, used to use just entry level

[true harness]

no, you don't want to be over or underqualified

[craggy verge]

I’m getting a degree in med lab
This is just a side hustle, just for the summers. I enjoy it but I don’t want to do it for the rest of my life. My main focus is med lab

[craggy verge]

O thank you
Will definitely check it out

[deft mural]

I have taken cs in alevels or high school and I basically mainly know python as I created my project using only python

But my question is , is a degree worth it

[delicate bane]

how has that experience been? and what would you tell folks considering such a move?

[gritty rivet]

This question is asked almost daily so search if you want more details but the simple answer is yes, you should get a degree

[heavy stirrup]

monke

[hearty island]

i have an interview w ericsson today 🗿 and an interview w UHG this upcoming week

[hearty island]

lamest interview ever, i can't stand these pre-scripted questions that you have to answer in a specific amount of time

[true harness]

examples?

[hearty island]

name your hardest challenge, what's the smartest decision you've ever made

i mean it was an easy interview

but it felt very generic and cheap

[honest pivot]

What I would tell folks is what is in the comment immediately above that one, lol. I have barely had to use any languages besides English and as a result I haven't learned them very well.

[vapid jay]

Looking for a junior english developer, minimum 10 years of english developement

Haha i tought you were my friend or smth @dense mesa

[orchid brook]

a microsoft recruiter reached out for their freshman/sophomore summer internship on linkedin

is it....bad?

[hearty island]

i would say that's good

[vapid jay]

They reach out to everyone

[orchid brook]

ahh

[vapid jay]

But try to apply if you want to

[orchid brook]

how competitive is the program tho since it's targeted for lower classmen

[vapid jay]

Its microsoft

[orchid brook]

right

[vapid jay]

Very competitive at all times. Faang always is

[orchid brook]

but is it like the typical faang application or is it a bit easier since it's for a younger/potentially less experienced audience

[vapid jay]

Not easy. Perhaps easier. Nothing could go wrong if you apply. Its fine try your luck

[orchid brook]

is the application on a time basis

like will earlier apps have more priority or should i apply after im totally ready with more exp in the next semesters

https://www.reddit.com/r/csMajors/comments/i2o5br/guide_to_applying_for_microsofts_explorer/

giving me hope aaa :(

[hearty island]

still nothing from my recruiter, feels bad 😦

[forest seal]

for someone here working with python on a daily basis, what do you do? what languages is it typically paired with?

[balmy spade]

That's going to widely depend on the job. Python pairs with so many tools.

For myself, python is used to provide our automation backend between dozens of platforms. Backend is done in Python. Sometimes the API is managed by a gateway from AWS, other times it's a Python solution deployed out. Front-end is commonly a nodejs variant that just calls the API and allows Python to do the work from there. Ci configuration, terraform, docker, K8s, and all the little tools involved with them are included in my daily work to a lesser extent.

[summer roost]

I develop low level tools and libraries in Python and C++, designed for Python application develops to leverage.

... how did I reply to that message?

I meant to reply to @forest seal

[forest seal]

I understand, I just wanted to get a few examples

[forest seal]

that's cool, did you learn C++ first and then python or learn python and then lower level language like C/C++?

[summer roost]

I learned Python first, but largely forgot it by the time I was in college. My first professional jobs were in C++, and I eventually had to relearn Python

[fallow crest]

Hello, junior sourcer/recruiter here, before I get banned, hear me out. DISCLAIMER, I AM NOT HERE TO RECRUIT ANYONE. thanks. I have IT as major in HS, so i am pretty confident that i have some background, but still, i don't know. I have one question that i cant figure out, so i decide that it would be best to ask programmers directly. When trying to find programmers for client, i got lot of ignoring, well, that happens and its pretty common, but what is uncommon for programmers is amount of hostility, is there some particular reason? are you bothered or feel just like another number on our report? is it about attitude in emails, or is it just that you don't want to get sold to another company?

[eager blaze]

Hello everyone!
Currently I am pursuing B.TECH in Artificial Intelligence.
I am noob in programming currently I am learning python (book - Python for Geeks) and I want some tips/suggestions or anything else

Please!!!!

[pliant narwhal]

Where you trying to go lol

[summer roost]

Good programmers are harassed by recruiters constantly. Like, more than one cold email per day is not unheard of for senior engineers. It's exhausting, just like spam calls are.

[pliant narwhal]

this is true, i got two emails from google recruiters in the last two weeks (1 per week lol). im not even looking for a job

[summer roost]

I get cold emails from Amazon on the regular. I would literally never work for Amazon. I've considered telling the recruiters so.

[fallow crest]

so, its more isue of carpet bombing with generic offers without any care of that person and their skill set, preferences and wishes?

[summer roost]

Yep. And at any given time, most people aren't hunting for new jobs.

[pliant narwhal]

Would u work at google tho?

[summer roost]

And there are a lot more bad recruiters out there than good ones (though good ones can be great!)

[fallow crest]

how would you define good one?

[summer roost]

Working with the applicant to place them in positions that meet their skillset and passions, rather than the ones where the recruiter gets the best commission

[summer roost]

Probably not, though I'd consider it, unlike Amazon or Meta.

[pliant narwhal]

what do u do now?

[fallow crest]

something like searching what exactly he do, what framework, front end/ back end/full stack, what type of company structure he/she prefer, what project could be interesting for him/her?

[buoyant seal]

i evaluate new companies i wish to be hired in, based on how it would benefit my career/skills growth
I wish the company providing me with challenges i need to have in order to grow to the role/experience I wish to aim being

[buoyant seal]

i think it is not really real to become a real senior developer if you hever get a chance to fully own project, planning it?
if you are just a small gear inside of enterprise machine that fixes that small corner over there / develops more or less straight word all pre defined feature requests

[fallow crest]

so try to find something when you know would be interesting and when programmer isnt just corporate slave and another number in the box?

[buoyant seal]

so final decision is based on = evaluated score for skill growth + salary.
There are also to consider parameters like... how easy it would be to blend in with other present people / atmosphere / standards to code and to a process of development in general, interacting with managers / clients of a company

[summer roost]

yeah. Honestly, even knowing salary range that it would take to get them to accept a job. If I get an email about an opportunity and it doesn't mention compensation, I ignore it completely.

[fallow crest]

we cant say numbers 😄

[summer roost]

you can usually say ranges

[fallow crest]

at least our company :D, so if i got it correctly, just message about great job that you have predispositions for is just strait ignore, but how about description of project, techs used in it an negotiable salary in 10 minute call?

[summer roost]

unless I'm actively searching for a job, I'm unlikely to accept a call. I might email back and forth, instead.

but advertising a job without saying how much it's worth feels like the same high pressure sales tactics as car dealerships have. Which is why people hate dealing with car dealerships.

let's say someone is currently making $200k, and the median pay for engineers in their metro is $150k. If you say "I've got this great job" but don't give any idea what the pay range is, they're pretty likely to just assume "well, it probably pays around average, so it would probably be a ~25% pay cut. If they were paying well they'd say so."

[fallow crest]

so, for me as recruiter, best thing I can do is get permission for range, got to know what the person iam interested in is doing and send normal, human to human email and not fake personalised carpet bombing with vague phrases?

[summer roost]

yes to all of that.

[fallow crest]

thanks for your input, its valuable

[buoyant seal]

ergh. i don't really have preferences for interesting, it would be more like... i would wish it did not meet my dislikes in technologies / domains
ergh as for corporate slave... it can be.... different based on how you are within a current team/project, and how you are within a company in general.
I value that i have good standing/nice atmosphere within current project, and i can tollerate that company in general is less nice?
but it is also kind of only because of limited choice to me at the moment.

Then more i will have choices in next job findings, then more i am going to be carefully picking hopefully the best available choice?
human life time is limited, and i need to make the most out of my what 10-20 of a active career years?

[fallow crest]

thanks for info

[summer roost]

i don't really have preferences for interesting
Lots of people do, though. Especially at the senior level, where your salary is likely more than high enough for all of your needs.

to make the most out of my what 10-20 of a active career years?
Is that planning for early retirement? Most people work more like 40 years (early 20s to early 60s, or so)

[balmy spade]

Belated but just last week I wrote an administration process to automation the import of user accounts to our incident platform. From Python it required gluing data from our AzureAD into a database (Aurora mySQL) with data from our ITSM database. Then translate permissions and create accounts in the platform that auto-populate a handful of business requirements (have to have a phone number, have to have x, y, z settings). This is mostly just more API calls but also needs a custom "go do it like a user" because the platform doesn't have an api to do what we need. (hacks in prod!)

The deployment is built out in CircleCI and an in-house terragrunt/terraform deployment platform. So additional languages include sql, terraform config, circleCI config, a pinch of bash for the CI shell script, and a tiny-tiny touch of Go to make the terragrunt magic work.

All wrapped under the misleading job description of "software engineer". :D

[buoyant seal]

i mean... there are too many domains in the world, as long as i did not try them, i can't be knowing if i will like it or not.
I can mostly know only what i will dislike

and there are clearly defined dislikes and likes to technologies i wish to be in.
I will like cloud deployment, i will dislike physical server deployment
I will like modern CI CD solutions like ArgoCD, Gitlab CI, i will dislike Jenkins (and to be honest i think i dislike Github actions too)
I will like code standards where people care about code architecture, i will dislike where people just smash the code of everything together
I will like microservices approach, i am going to be disliking seeing monolith where product asks for more than that
I will like kubernetes deployment, i will dislike AWS ECS, and deployments to linux servers directly (especially without any config management tools)
I will certainly dislike any projects related to TOS breaking web scraping.
and etc

[summer roost]

lots of people care more about the problem domain than the tools.

Though I agree with you about Jenkins 😆

[fallow crest]

what is kubernetes deployment?

[summer roost]

a type of containerized deployments where the number of containers able to provide some service can dynamically scale based on demand.

[fallow crest]

something cloud related i guess?

[delicate bane]

where is @buoyant seal. i found your future job

[buoyant seal]

are you familiar with what are containers / docker already?

[fallow crest]

nope, no clue, trying to wrap my head around it enough to at least know what is it

my base idea is that if you want to have normal mail conv with devs about changing job, knowing something about it could help a lot

[buoyant seal]

.. okay, are you familiar with deploying application to linux servers? installing some python server with flask application for example?

[summer roost]

it's not really related to cloud vs not cloud. "Cloud" just means "someone else's servers". Kubernetes is often used when deploying stuff to the cloud/someone else's servers, but it can also be used on-prem, when deploying stuff to your own servers.

[fallow crest]

so sorry for asking about everything 😄

[delicate bane]

highly recommend learning containerization. just used it on this last project

[fallow crest]

I have 4y of HS coding, and in python I made non working trading bot, that would summ up my experiences in that field

and not working, like it wasn't profitable during back testing, it would trade, I would just lose money, so i postpone that project

[delicate bane]

its okay, no need to apologize. this is a place to learn.

[buoyant seal]

i hope my future jobs title having things like Senior Backend Developer / Senior DevOps Engineer / Software Architect / Cloud Infrastructure Architect

[delicate bane]

very interesting.

[buoyant seal]

so are you already installed a python application to run on a linux server? installed some linux stuff necessary to run along side of it?
also have you worked with virtual machines?

[summer roost]

well yes, but specifically this is a place to learn about and discuss jobs and careers

[delicate bane]

oh yeah thats true

[summer roost]

the discussion about learning new technologies is starting to wander off topic - perhaps it should jump over to an off-topic channel

!ot

[inner wren]

Off-topic channel: #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[fallow crest]

lets move 😄

[ivory sluice]

hello, please only use english as per our #rules @worldly falcon

[worldly falcon]

Im not english am French

[ivory sluice]

i'm not english either, but i use english on this server per our rules

[covert plaza]

Is using freelance websites for jobs a good thing for someone who's hunting for a job on entry level?

[forest seal]

I would say it depends on the type of projects your taking on. if it's comparable to a github project you'd make anyways, sure make some side income. but make sure it's something you can use towards your first job

[smoky quest]

It depends on your background, how you see your career and what you want out of it.
If you are targeting FAANG type companies, I would focus on a full time position instead in a company relevant to your interest and that aligns with it

[covert plaza]

Thanks for the answers.

[pearl wadi]

What's the most fun programming job?

[smoky quest]

there is no single answer to that as different people gets attracted to different things. So the answer is literally the topic you enjoy the most.
In terms of jobs, motivations is typically split into three categories:

• Autonomy
• Mastery
• Purpose
  So look for opportunities which align with what you enjoy and help you fulfill these three categories

[pastel thunder]

is there a possibility of not getting interview even after a referrel?

[buoyant seal]

everything is possible. it is a real world. see a process of getting job according to a formula

out of 100 sent applications, only 10 will get interviews
only 3 you will pass, and u would like only 1 company out of 3

(same formula works for recruiters hiring devs obviously)

[near ocean]

Yes

[smoky quest]

It's possible, but I wouldn't take it as a sign of a great company with a strong engineering culture

[near ocean]

Why would you assume youre getting an interview in the first place? Referral just means you skip the automated screening and HR person thumbing through your cv

[smoky quest]

I would nuance it more than that. HR is not disconnected from the managers. In general, HR and the EM partner together and are in sync.
HR would still have to get you in the pipeline and ensure your visa status and clear out a few things. But it's just with less steps in between

[pastel thunder]

trying to estimate my chances in various scenarios

getting job is so meh

[near ocean]

You have a higher chance of getting an interview, yes, but it doesnt mean you'll 100% get an interview

[orchid brook]

Hi

So theres a rolling application for microsoft and a university recruiter just reached out to me

when this semester begins ill have some nicer bullet points in my resume but thats a month later, should i just apply now? If the recruiter reached out to me i guess my current experience isnt too bad?

[balmy spade]

I would go ahead with the application now. The recruiter is talent scouting. It will be good experience for you regardless of the outcome. Chat with the recruiter, get to know the process. Ask all the questions of how it works.

Just sets you up for either an early offer or more comfort in the next round.

[delicate bane]

oh i forgot to mention this earlier, but i was able to obtain a full-time role successfully. many thanks to everyone here in the python discord community

[balmy spade]

Awesome! Whatcha doing? Can you say?

[buoyant seal]

🎉

[delicate bane]

[balmy spade]

If only I could be so grossly incandescent. \[T]/

[delicate bane]

its a data scientist position. but im def deploying my own models. like my last project as an intern, i was able to serve my model as an api on aws for other devs so that was pretty neat

[balmy spade]

Sweeeeet!

[delicate bane]

it took some blood, sweat, and tears to get it into a serverless type of format, but it was worth it lol

[balmy spade]

I need to learn me some docker. It's on my list this weekend. I'd like to break out of my current role into a more flexible one.

[delicate bane]

[delicate bane]

do itttt. if i can do it, you can definitely do so

[balmy spade]

Oh I can. It's just a matter of applying that ability.

[delicate bane]

[balmy spade]

You know... not playing video games for six hours.

[buoyant seal]

on unrelated note, i have achievement too which i gained just right now. Jumped with zero knowledge into AWS
and finally was able to write terraform code for it that deployed necessary logging agent into AWS ECS EC2 targeting AWS RDS postgresql
Learned a bunch of stuff in the process... attaching cloudwatch logging / session manager for debugging.
I think i don't like AWS for how it was all not really friendly in comparison to kubernetes. and discovered clear gap in my fundamentals knowledge, going to learn few books about networking fundamentals, i want to understand what was going on fully

[delicate bane]

ayyyy congrats my dude

[delicate bane]

doesnt aws have that managed kubernetes service, EKS?

[buoyant seal]

it has, but my current project/team already uses AWS ECS as its alternative for container deployment system

[delicate bane]

ah gotcha

i think, whats it called, aws fargate is also compatible with both

another day, another aws service. amirite

[balmy spade]

AWS alphabet soup. I'm familiar with lambdas and all the serverless structures around them. SQS, SNS, the databases, S3, etc. My company leverages both EKS and ECS deployments too. That's my next target, getting some of my console tooling up into a cluster as a learning experience.

Cloud deployment, planning, and use seems to be a super valuable skill set at the moment.

[buoyant seal]

highly recommending this book from container guru https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/docker-deep-dive/9781800565135/

[balmy spade]

.bm check it

[brittle thorn]

Wow nice and celebrate with coffee

[shut copper]

Anyone alive that can take a look at #help-orange 👀 sorry to bother. Code works on repl.it but not python IDLE shell. Discord bot goes online in both

[smoky quest]

Hi!
How does it relate to #career-advice ?

[pastel thunder]

what do they want to know? company job?

[vapid jay]

Hey guys
I have a question
Is it necessary to do college to get a job at google or can you just do online courses and work on personal projects and get a job at google after school?

[young sky]

I sell a tool and a bot to have nitro , are you interested ?

[visual oracle]

Can I sell on FiveR as a business / company ? Like, I'll take projects but pay others to do the work.

[stoic timber]

we don't sell in this server sorry

[stoic timber]

since Google is one of the most popular places to work at, I'd say try to do college/university Computer Science. Without it your chances will be much lower

[vapid jay]

Oh, what if I do online courses and get an online degree/certificate? I'm still in school. Will it help if I start studying stuff like data structures and algorithms now?

[stoic timber]

sure, it helps, but it's not enough to get the top-tier jobs usually

[spare zinc]

hi, there started my first job, two weeks had been passed already

[vapid jay]

ok thanks

[true harness]

summarize what you did, I think

generally, certificates don't mean anything. if you do an online degree program, as long as you get a legit B.S from it then it's fine

[dry shoal]

Hello
I work in company whose product is not software, but uses software to create some internally built and used tools. However most of those tools are a mass of legacy code, most of it in Fortran, and not very well organised and documented. I have sufficient experience in the field of coding to improve the quality of the code and practices in general, but I am having a lot of trouble on changing the mentality of some colleagues that are still very stuck to "how we used to do things". It is also a relatively big company, so it is always harder to changing course with that ship...has anyone faced this kind of challenge? How did you deal with it? Any suggestions is appreciated

[gritty rivet]

Of course this is a common problem, or Fortran probably wouldn't even still be used at all. There are certain stakeholders who have the power the to make the decision to modernize. In a large company you may not have direct access to those stakeholders, but your only hope is to persuade them that the time and money and grumbling and every other cost that comes with investing in modernizing this software will come with tangible benefits that make it worth doing

[dry shoal]

It's not even necessarily ditching the Fortran software, it's introducing good practices like using git instead of copy-n-paste galore in the common server. Documentation, preferably automatic (currently I am using ford, but I can almost hear the colleagues complaining about the dependency with an "external library")...

In a dream-like scenario I would ditch Fortran, but that is much harder argument to make. What would you suggest pivoting to, considering we have heavy mathematics computing demand?

[autumn mica]

Hey anyone doing the red hat course rn?

[orchid brook]

hi

can anyone review my resume pls im an incoming sophomore

i changed participated in research to researched and worked on creating to developed

any other tips?

[honest pivot]

I mean, "heavy mathematics" is actually a legit reason to use Fortran (although I'm aware there are plenty of other good choices as well). I think your main difficulty is gonna be the fact that software is not your company's main product, but just a tool you use internally. So, they will view software development as a "cost" rather than as a profit-generating activity. So you will have an uphill battle convincing them they should make any changes to a working system.

But I agree with you that they should at least use source control and get away from this copy-pasting files nonsense...you should be able to easily argue the cost benefit of proper source control. Make it clear that you don't want to rewrite rewrite anything, but just want to set them up so that the whole system is easier (and cheaper) to maintain. Take your time to do some research into some good arguments to present, that will illustrate the savings they will make over time by having things properly in git. For bonus points, try to anticipate some of the concerns they may have about making the switch.

[gritty rivet]

You have to pick your battles and it sounds like version control is a good place to start. Focus on that. If you can persuade your coworkers that's great but this should be managements job. If they don't see the point of imposing version control yet, all you can do is try to educate them on the advantages of git vs the insanity of what you're doing now

[lapis wind]

Yeah, git seems reasonable, dropping fortran, less so.

Realistically if you're touching any sort of numerical work, any alternative you offer is probably going to be a downgrade in terms of handling and developer knowledge although you may get gain readability, the issue is what do you replace it with?

For numerical stuff, Fortran is agreeably better than C or C++ for the job, along with you'd then have to argue why it should be changed and loose the probably decades of battle testing that code has stood up to.

[delicate bane]

do people change their linkedin status when they sign the offer letter or when they officially start the job? or does it not really matter in the grand scheme of things

[buoyant seal]

Better to change when officially started job. It is safer way. Signed offer letter can be not final.

Technically even officially started job is not final for first three months while u a in trial

[delicate bane]

yeah i think youre right

[graceful mason]

Current employment: "It's complicated"

[delicate bane]

hahahaha didnt that used to be from facebook

for relationships or something 💀

[delicate bane]

i-

wait really? or does this depend on country

[buoyant seal]

It depends on a company contract
Usually each company has their own trial period time
During which it is always easier to say goodbye to each other

[buoyant seal]

+country laws can be interfering, and could be adding additional legal penalties/protections after trial is over, and u a fully employed. That moment already only country specific

[delicate bane]

[buoyant seal]

Some big company like AWS I heard has something like... Juniors have 3 years to become middle developers, otherwise they are kicked

Past that they are safe and can be middle devs forever

[delicate bane]

i have heard the same. those companies are not for me

[delicate bane]

anyway, good thing i asked. i will wait before making any changes. thanks DW

[near ocean]

Definitely when you officially start, you contract probably states in it that during your employment you will do your best to further the company's goals and agenda and such, changing your linkedin could be seen as pretty much doing the opposite of that lol

[buoyant seal]

3 years is actually considerably a lot. For person with higher education degree it is sufficient time to become even senior Dev if apples sufficient effort and lucky enough to have tasks helping for growth quickly

[honest pivot]

I'm definitely not changing my LinkedIn while still at the previous job, lol

[delicate bane]

oh its still the same company. just moving from internship -> full time role

i forgot to mention that

[vapid jay]

hi all,
i am in my early 30s in grad school. im currently studying algorithms and class starts this month. my previous experience is in industry in biotech (US). i'm wondering if i get a B- and get dismissed from my program if it'll be realistic to try to pivot into tech with the python knowledge i've picked up. pls advise what you think is realistic

[stoic timber]

One B- is enough to get dismissed ? That's harsh. How long have you been in the program ?

[vapid jay]

that's just how grad school works. you have to get B's or better. i've been in long enough to complete biochem, molecular bio, intro to bioinfo

its a bioinfo program, not CS

i guess there is nothing to stop me from interviewing, although i'd need a lot more practice probably before i could pass a coding interview

[delicate bane]

i find that many biotech/pharm/life sciences companies use R, but i would personally pick up both if you can in order to transition

[vapid jay]

no i mean i want to get out of biotech for pure tech

just python / algos / CS stuff

[delicate bane]

you could try. just know that if its pure tech, only python wont be sufficient

[vapid jay]

dang ok

[delicate bane]

i wouldnt get discouraged. keep looking around and see if you can find transition roles to maybe get there

[vapid jay]

i mean worst case i go back into biotech with some grad school courses under my belt where i did really well, however, i'd much prefer to leverage the 6 months of studying algos to get into pure tech, if that is at all possible.

[vapid jay]

i agree. everyone had to start somewhere

[shut copper]

It was late at night and server was quiet

I was able to figure it out though ty 🙂

[dry shoal]

I know Fortran performs quite well, but the code is also changing somewhat frequently...nothing like the neck-breaking speed of the software industry, but you know...maybe there is a new requirement every semester or so, and take into account that our team isn't working exclusively on the software. The Fortran project is also getting to the point that it is becoming very bloated and it is kind of difficult to change anything...personally, I think we should pivot to C or something like that...but...well...that is just my opinion

[gritty rivet]

Do you have a couple of projects you could list on your resume and share on GitHub to demonstrate general proficiency in basic Python? If so, that's good enough to try applying for jobs. It's rough out there but you don't know what's realistic for you until you've really explored the job market and given it some serious effort.

Here's recent article that paints a pretty dismal picture of the job market right now but also has a lot of actionable advice I would read very closely https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-software-engineers/

[vapid jay]

ok thank you. i wouldn't try to go up against ppl w BS in CS (the gold standard?). but maybe i could get a job somewhere as a "python programmer" rather than software engineer. but thanks again and i certainly will read this

the closest i have to displaying my public knowledge is certificates granted by an EdX course or series of courses

[honest pivot]

None of that is an argument for changing the language of the project. But great arguments for better source control habits.

[dry shoal]

A code that is hard to adapt isn't an argument for changing the base code? At least an overall refactoring...?

[honest pivot]

Refactoring is different from rewriting, and definitely different from rewriting in another language.

[delicate bane]

this was a very good read and perspective on the entry-level market

[gritty rivet]

Titles are fuzzy... "Python Programmer" might imply a more junior role, but the same exact job might be called "Software Engineer" at an other company

I do super basic work in pure Python, do not have a CS degree, but don't hesitate to call myself a software engineer. My formal title is "Solution Delivery Engineer"

So basically, "software engineering" is a broad catchall term and if you're looking to write Python as the main focus of your job, you'll likely fall under it (unless you're more of a data analyst / scientist maybe)

[delicate bane]

this particular bit stood out to me as i remember 2021 like this:

Even in 2021, the market for less experienced software engineers was already chilly. For experienced engineers, job opportunities were plenty, and large compensation increases were common.

A year later, the market has cooled down for experienced software engineers. Where does this leave engineers with less experience?

The market for these people is even worse than it was in 2021. There's far more competition - bootcamps and universities have not stopped in graduating new entrants to the market - however, companies are still more likely to hire for experienced engineers, and they are more likely be able to afford these people versus in 2021 when the market was on fire.

[gritty rivet]

I would emphasize that projects, no matter how basic, count for more then those. Build something useful, no matter how basic. If you've done something practical with Python in the bio realm, start with that. But it can be any sort of personal project

[vapid jay]

to avoid asking a new, I'm assuming the same advice applies for someone who's already working but for a frontend developer role with some backend (me) and I want to switch to a fully backend role.

[gritty rivet]

I think so. Your existing experience should help a lot as long as your resume is balanced (managers hiring for backend roles are not looking for frontend resumes). The article I linked to is for junior roles in general so that's still relevant

[vapid jay]

yeah, guess I'll work on my side projects and at least sell my previous work experience (my company given title is software engineer and I wrote some Python we pushed to production but not much)

[gritty rivet]

Sounds like a good plan

[buoyant seal]

(background music among us: https://youtu.be/ukTnyciSDwk ) Kind of sus how is this information relevant to #career-advice ?

[peak halo]

Be sure to ping the mods if you see that kind of thing

[shadow ermine]

helu everyone! I've decided to learn coding during this vacation beforehand as i'm going to start my college in few months.
Can anyone guide me with how to start learning?
like what language should I start with or from where and how :)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/506350613953642496.gif?size=60&quality=lossless

[hearty island]

why did my hiring manager who'll interview me on Thursday block me on LinkedIn 💀

i haven't even talked to her once yet wtf is wrong with these people

[summer roost]

did you send a friend request (or whatever linkedin calls them) to her?

[hearty island]

nope

weird as hell

[peak halo]

since this is the Python server, the easy answer is to tell you to learn Python. And I would encourage you to learn Python. But this is also the career discussion channel, and if your goal is to eventually start a career as a developer, keep in mind that learning languages is not the end game. You need to know how to do the things that professional developers are paid to do. Web developers aren't paid to "know python", they're paid to make websites.

[shadow ermine]

I'll be checking over python now hehe
thank you :))
:))

[coarse crag]

Is it because she doesn't want you to look up on her information so that you won't try to pull anything on her? as in, doing something to gain her favor in the interview?

when i first got in hs, my seniors who were in charge of taking care of our group deleted their pics and info on social media. gaining favors of the seniors during the student orientation period was not allowed.

but that... sounds so childish especially for working environment. probably that was not the case for you, but that's the only thing i could think of.

[hearty island]

that's what one of my friends suggested as well, i laughed it off

[coarse crag]

oooo

[hearty island]

but if she's going to act like that idek what i'm gonna be expecting thursday 🗿

[coarse crag]

well, yeah, that method definitely sounds childish

but i am not really sure as i have no clue about it. i wish the best for you, and i hope you'll do well on the interview.

[hearty island]

thank you! i'll update everyone after

there was also the issue where my recruiters suddenly swapped out and my interview was scheduled by a diff recruiter

[copper current]

Hi everyone, Does anyone know of any free online courses for python that use pyCharm for their Ide ?

[coarse crag]

i honestly have no idea if this is a good or bad thing, or it's just something that happens often. but compared to the previous one, this one sounds more acceptable/normal.

[coarse crag]

that's actually not a question for career discussion. maybe you can try asking in #python-discussion

do you have to use pycharm tho?
https://youtu.be/kqtD5dpn9C8 (not sure if it's up to date, it was uploaded in 2020)

[hearty island]

oh, so it was just a broken link

once i searched her up on LinkedIn it worked

[coarse crag]

oh i see i see, glad it was not something to worry about

[sour tartan]

i'm not sure what big N is, but I haven't worked there. I've worked at D, L, H, e... 🙂

algorithm interviews are dumb because people study for them, learn red-black balancing or whatever, and then never have to use that knowledge again.

D=Digital, L=Lotus, H=Hewlett-Packard. What is Big N?

[brisk anvil]

what's big n

holy crap he's worked at hp

[sour tartan]

is that good?

[brisk anvil]

generally probably

[covert plaza]

I think he meant FAANG kind of companies.

[brisk anvil]

oh

[sour tartan]

it wasn't in my experience. they seemed clueless and dumb.

[brisk anvil]

ah ic

[sour tartan]

but hp is a huge place. I worked in the printer group (also at Digital, which was bought by Compaq, which was bought by HP).

sorry, gotta go.

[brisk anvil]

bye

[covert plaza]

Is working on FAANG kind of company a huge deal when it comes to Salary? From what I read, the average is the same. Maybe it is a big deal if you get to senior or higher roles.

[serene kindle]

@modern ore

[covert plaza]

And is it possible to apply to FAANG without having bachelor?

[serene kindle]

yes but the bachelor helps

[peak halo]

"apply to" and "get a job from" are entirely different things. FAANG companies are much more likely to immediately delete applications from those who don't have a degree if they don't also have substantial relevant experience with other companies.

[serene kindle]

yeah even entry level jobs can have like 10 year of experience

[covert plaza]

Understood. Yeah, that is what I've been seeing.

[serene kindle]

of course if you have bachelor from a top college you can bypass that 10 year of experience completely

[peak halo]

if you can get your foot in the door without a degree in a less desirable company, then you might be able to make a lateral move to a FAANG company later in your career. but if you're a career starter without a degree, FAANG is the least likely place where you should expect to be successful.

[covert plaza]

For entry level jobs Bachelor's Degree is much more important than for jobs with higher experience.

Its understandable tho, but it kinda demotivates me =/

[serene kindle]

bachelor's degree is regarded very highly and seen as a super basic certification

like of course you can get a job without it but it helps a lot

[peak halo]

is there a reason the need to obtain a degree demotivates you?

[covert plaza]

Yeah, because I didnt want to go through another bachelor.

[serene kindle]

whats your bachelor

[covert plaza]

Already have 2 and a masters on a different area. Law School and Economy.

[serene kindle]

ouch

[peak halo]

for what its worth, one of the senior members of my department does computational law.

[serene kindle]

isn't it super easy to get a new bachelor since you fulfilled the requirements

nevermind though, you should just apply for jobs directly

[peak halo]

not having general education requirements is not the same as being easy.

I would think they'd have the degrees on their resume...

[serene kindle]

i have 10 years of experience right now

[covert plaza]

Tbf, when thinking about my CV, I dont even think I'd mention these other degrees, since they really dont matter to what I'm focusing right now.

[serene kindle]

it was like 5 years of experience on my resume

[peak halo]

@serene kindle if you have an economics degree, you might be able to do a boot camp and get a job as a data scientist, or something along those lines.

[serene kindle]

i'm currently taking a break from working though

[peak halo]

@modern ore please stop doing irrelevant emojis, both in the chat and as reactions.

!rule 3

[inner wren]

Rules

3. Respect staff members and listen to their instructions.

[serene kindle]

just do amazon interview

[covert plaza]

I also feel like I'm too old already to get another degree. (34 rn). I'd be 38 when finished.

[serene kindle]

just get a job

[peak halo]

what do you think about my suggestion?

[covert plaza]

This one?

[serene kindle]

data scientist jobs are really competitive and usually are phds

[peak halo]

it depends on the company and what their concept of a "data scientist" is. but if this person wants to work as a programmer of some kind, I think their best bet is to be some flavor of analyst ("data scientist") and work towards becoming an ML engineer.

[serene kindle]

ML engineer is the hardest job to get though

[peak halo]

there are "data scientists" in my company with economics and statistics backgrounds.

[serene kindle]

lol i have massive ML experience and couldn't touch the ML jobs

[peak halo]

well, I think that's their best bet given their current credentials and non-desire to get another degree.

[covert plaza]

Since, you tagged Neko I thought it wasnt for me. Yeah, I think it is a good idea. Perhaps the best choice. But I have to say that when I started studying programming, (2 months ago), I thought and read that there were not a real need for a degree, and this was really important when deciding that I wanted to learn.

[peak halo]

I thought and read that there were not a real need for a degree
the need for a degree is most prevalent for young people with no experience. you have both, just not in programming-related things.

[serene kindle]

i mean, if you have that capacity to get a CS degree it seems like the best choice. might as well do bachelors and masters in CS

if the only problem is age it seems like the best choice

[covert plaza]

Humm, nice. Well, if that help, I also founded (and sold two years later) a TMS development company. So, I understand deeply the foundations and brainstorms involved on creating something. But it was like 10 years ago. The amount of editors, frameworks, stuff that help today is just absurd. I feel like my knowledge on those things is completely outdated.

[serene kindle]

frameworks get outdated really fast , even in 1 year

[covert plaza]

Thanks. Actually, thanks everyone. I've been studying 4 hours a day, but whenever I stop to look at jobs, I feel kinda "eh.. dunno if I should keep doing it without going for a degree!"

[serene kindle]

i'd just do bachelors and masters in CS if i had that capacity

you don't have to rush the process, just that there is genuinely a massive amount of stuff to learn and the most efficient solution is a degree given your capacity to get one.

[covert plaza]

Getting Masters Degree here is tough without being inside the Academy. As corrupt as my country are, it also reflects to our educational system. So I'm not sure if I'll get the masters by doing Distance Learning.

[serene kindle]

you could try getting a job though given you have some experience

[covert plaza]

Yes I will, as soon as I finish this bootcamp that Ive been doing, I'll start applying and stuff.

I dont really want to apply without having one relevant thing to do put under the "Education" part of my CV.

I'll probably hire someone to manage my LinkedIn too, since I never had any social media (really dislike the culture that it brings).

[serene kindle]

you can just put a linkedin profile, you don't need to engage with linkedin

[covert plaza]

Anyway, thanks for all the answers.. I'll sleep on it, and if I decide for the degree, I'll start it asap.

[serene kindle]

you'll end up using the degree material in the job anyway

linkedin is the social media for getting a tech job

[covert bolt]

I was sorta curious about this, but how does programming at a company actually work? Whats the process of your code getting implemented into the actual software and stuff?

[buoyant seal]

it depends on a rank/role

in most of cases:
you get available list of tasks to perform (there would be prioritization highly likely what to do first)
you do some task, research how to have it done
creating git branch
write your code that explores solution / refactoring / writing tests
pushes your solution to remote git
when you open merge/pull request into master branch, it triggers for sure CI pipeline that runs unit and linting tests at least, if it is green, a person is invited for code review
your code is reviewed, you fix little things
it is eventually merged into master
then eventually master branch runs CI pipeline with unit and linting tests again, and also deploys current version of application into staging infrastructure enviroment where it gets tested with automated tests or with manual QA
if it goes well, tasks is marked as completely done, otherwise additional fixes are requested, in some cases your merged solution is reverted until fixed one is gained

additionally to this workflow if they are from US/EU, they can be following SCRUM stuff

if you are senior role and even having leader level positions in a project:
you can be also planning the project / its direction of development
and distributing tasks to complete between other developers and you included xD

[covert bolt]

awesome, that was a rlly good explanation, ty 💪

[buoyant seal]

u a welcome. If you are the one developing project and fully owning it, the process of software development (SDLC) is pretty much quite good described here
https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Analysis-Design-Alan-Dennis/dp/1119496489

phases like: getting estimated proffit out of project / having initially approved to be done
gathering business and functional requirements how it would look like
designing its user usage cases
designing how its storages / database would look like in tables
designing infrastructure
designing UI/UX
designing estimated code architecture
distributing tasks to developers
gaining first feedback from development and adjusting course of development
rushing to Minimum Viable Product and repeating previous two tasks
launching MVP and getting more feedback from client / users
repeating to do new tasks for new releases / getting feedback from new releases / adjusting course of development

[covert bolt]

awesome, Ill take a look at that too 🤝

[covert bolt]

@buoyant seal btw have you ever interviewed for a software engineer job before?

Was wondering if the coding interviews are as awful/difficult as people make them seem

[buoyant seal]

recently i went through a dozen of interviews before deciding i don't wish to change current job

[covert bolt]

Did you have to do any of the coding interviews people talk about?

[buoyant seal]

shrugs, i had just 2 unpleasant level conding interviews out of 20 interviews
Mostly they can be fun, as it can be some creative task to solve / or even architect
but sometimes they are really ugly and just asking only implementation details and having like 30 seconds to answer per question, in this case i get dissapointed

[covert bolt]

Ah ok, good to know, ty

[summer roost]

remember that interviews are a two way street. You'll have to go through quite a few interviews before you start to get a feel for this, but eventually you'll be able to pick up on things like "that was a weird interview" or "they asked dumb questions" and decide you wouldn't like to work for them after all

[vapid jay]

hi. Is it bad if you list projects that aren't full stack on your resume when applying for general Software Engineering positions (not a specific role)?

[buoyant seal]

How to apply not for specific role?

[vapid jay]

Yeah I'm saying there is no harm in putting regular non web dev projects on my resume for general "Software Developer/Engineer" roles correct?

Obviously, if I get that if I apply for "Front-end engineer" then yeah I would expect to have front-end projects

[buoyant seal]

Backend Dev projects, desktop app projects, mobile app projects will be all benefiting general SWE

Frontend projects for some reason I can consider only partially. I would check first how they were written before deciding if specific one can be counted into SWE or not

[vapid jay]

Okay thanks. I'm not that interested in full-stack development or front-end, and I read somewhere that it's better to have a visual/full-stack project on reddit which kinda made me concerned. Not sure though, as I've tried to start a full-stack project with the MERN stack because I never made a project with a REST api, but I got overwhelmed with NPM and setting it all up and kinda just went back to making my project with Flask and Jinja templates (I previously made a full-stack project with Flask so that's where I got my experience from). Maybe I should have just started properly learning Javascript and build up from there.

[vapid jay]

I see. Thanks for the clarification

@buoyant seal what's consider a backend dev project? Just things related to the server right?

I can't really think of a project that doesn't involve a front-end that's not a desktop application

[inner wren]

Hey @buoyant seal!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.svg). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[vapid jay]

what types of Software Engineering jobs that involves using the terminal? I enjoy learning and using it, and the UNIX philosphy is quite interesting as well.

[buoyant seal]

https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_darkbot
I do my pet project
It is made out of 4 microservices parts
2 out of them are Rest APIs
2 out of them are message queue celery producers/consumers
2 out of them are my frontend listener and viewers through Discord Bot

[vapid jay]

I see. Seems quite interesting

[buoyant seal]

If project has rest/graphql/grpc transporting protocols, highly likely it is backend
Also some backends can be Message Queues or Event Streaming producers/consumers

Usually backend applications get interactivity with databases, in most of the cases SQL databases like Postgresql. Sometimes document databases like mongo, key value like Redis/rabbitmq, sometimes with search engine like Elastic Search, sometimes 8 more type of others

[buoyant seal]

Probably all of them
But backend and DevOps engineer ones are especially more often living in Linux terminals

[fair flower]

Is it possible to get job abroad remotely?

[stoic timber]

yes, but typically you have to be quite skilled already, because many people want to work remote now. dowcet posted a great article the other day that might interest you too:
https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-software-engineers/

please don't ask programming questions in this channel, also that's not even Python 😅

[finite otter]

guys iam planning on starting andriod development but idk if i should start with java or kotlin any suggestions ? please help ;-;

[stoic timber]

both have their own advantages,
Java: more documentation, can be used for other things besides Android dev
Kotlin: easier syntax and more modern
For a more in-depth answer it's probably better to ask in a Java/Kotlin server though

[onyx relic]

May depend what you want to do with it. You can use kivy and still program in python, but it's finnicky and your options & app performance will be limited

[pastel thunder]

lol, i thought i had pre opened something which i never close and sent it there

[stoic timber]

np it happens

[vapid jay]

@vernal ledge

I would like to interview you.

You are very passionate about the exact things we are looking for.

Please friend me and we can talk about it.

[coarse crag]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[vapid jay]

it’s not paid

[coarse crag]

Oh i see

[vapid jay]

he js has the qualities and passions we r looking for

[coarse crag]

Well, it's just that this server doesn't allow recruiting for job offers

[vapid jay]

oh wait what??

[coarse crag]

Maybe i misunderstood your intention

[vapid jay]

my intentions are to scout.

i’m scouting ppl who have the qualities we r looking for

[coarse crag]

I see, I am not sure if that's allowed. Maybe you should ask the mods if they allow you to do that.

[vapid jay]

sure thing

[boreal moss]

Can I get some part time job here?

[stoic timber]

no, for recruitment and jobs, please see https://www.python.org/jobs/

[boreal moss]

thx~

[gritty rivet]

Abroad + remote is very tough. At least here in the US the vast majority of remote jobs still require you to be a resident here.

[near ocean]

Scouting sounds like it goes against rule 9, specifically the part about offering work

[serene kindle]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[delicate bane]

yeah it usually comes down to company tax reasons

i believe companies with global offices are more likely to have open positions for abroad work however

[near ocean]

Can confirm half the team members in this new role at an international company are not in the UK

[delicate bane]

we have some international folks too but mostly domestic i believe

[fringe hamlet]

Heyy!!

u all doing jobs somewhere?

[raw hare]

Hlo

Does any one know the course content's for Studying Software Engineering ?

[near ocean]

Yes, some people here work

[errant thicket]

how can i be put to work with my intermediate coding skills ?

[hearty island]

make some projects and start applying

[vapid jay]

Hi

[raw hare]

?

[fringe hamlet]

Which language is better for my career in software engineering

I am learning python

Is it ok?

[peak halo]

yes, though unless you're going to be a data scientist/ML engineer, you can't know only Python. Web development has several different tech stacks, and all of them involve JavaScript for browser-based code. JVM languages and C# seem to be popular for enterprise software.

[frosty terrace]

Got a question, I've been told not to include jobs that I only worked 3 months for. In that past year, I was hired, then we got bought out, then laid off. how should I put that on my resume? right now I just put that previous job that hired me, not the one that bought us out. The one that bought us out was extremely scummy and laid off must of us afterwards

that's making 5 month gap, rather than 2 month, which even in my opinion, looks bad. Maybe I should say I'm a freelancer to fill the gap?

[summer roost]

I think it's bad advice to not list companies that you only worked 3 months for.

I wouldn't give them a lot of space - probably just one bullet point. But I'd still list them.

[smoky quest]

don't lie in a way that you misrepresent what you did (ex: you didn't do freelance).
You could list it and put "acquisition" next to it to signal that wasn't due to you being let go for being a bad hire

[summer roost]

Or possibly even list the whole 5 month span under 2 company names, if your job title and duties remained unchanged until you were laid off - "Company A, later acquired by Company B"

[smoky quest]

It's kind of interesting to see that trend of people trying to fill gaps with "freelance". I have seen that a bit more recently and it's so easy to spot. In general it ends up with me asking "So what type of contract(s) have you done?" and that makes for an awkward answer. And that doesn't make the candidate look good

[honest pivot]

People are really afraid that an ATS or an HR person will simply screen out their resume because it has gaps

Of course, I don't care if someone has gaps, and I bet you don't either. Life happens, and I would say being continuously employed is not, in itself, the purpose of life. But there's at least a growing number of people who believe that their CV is getting rejected before it even gets to you.

[true harness]

probably because people try to get you to pay for their resume editing service that you "can't get through ATS without"

[frosty terrace]

Something like...Old Company (now New Company) – City, State

[summer roost]

I'd use the word "acquired" or "acquisition" instead of just "now", to make it clear that the company changed management as well, not just their name

[frosty terrace]

well they didnt change their name, just the department was sold out

and then aftewards I got laid off because they were trying to force me to move to Texas, which is scummy being that I was a remote position, should I say that in my job interviews if they ask? obviously in a nicer way

[smoky quest]

yeah, I only care if there is a pattern of multiple short stints, which could point at the candidate having something wrong rather than the company.
And people make ATSes far more advanced than they actually are (ie. a web view of a spreadsheet)

[delicate bane]

may or may not be relevant to the convo but i just saw this example so you could probably do something similar

[summer roost]

"Company A, then acquired by Company B" covers the case where the department was sold.

and honestly, that probably tells a big part of the story on its own - someone who notices that the stint was only 5 months might wonder why, and then say "oh, probably related to the acquisition" when they notice how you listed the company.

Laying someone more junior off and keeping only seniors after an acquisition isn't really rare. Neither is laying everyone off and just keeping the product.

Neither of those scenarios reflects poorly on you.

[frosty terrace]

i include then months for both companies, right? for the duration. Also what about the excuse of why it occurred, should I state they were pressuring me to move to Texas?

[gusty kraken]

poto

[smoky quest]

If it's within 1-2 years, using months may make sense. Beyond that, specifying months may not provide much value

[summer roost]

I think I wouldn't include when the switch happened. I was originally thinking of listing it as "Company A (then acquired by Company B)" with dates "Jan 2022 - Mar 2022 (then Apr 2022 - May 2022)", or possibly "Jan 2022 - May 2022 (for company B Apr 2022 - May 2022)", but either of those probably would confuse an ATS, and you don't really benefit from being that precise. Instead, I'd just do "Company A, later acquired by Company B" with dates "Jan 2022 - May 2022"

[frosty terrace]

... not long ago i had people contacting me left and right, now nothing, is that a me problem or is everyone experiencing this?

I keep hearing how there is more jobs than ever now, which I don't see that whatsoever, I'm applying for jobs in my field, and even other fields, and this time I'm getting no bites where previously I'd get loads with interviews and everything

[summer roost]

Re: short stints, the only reason companies care at all about how long you were at a previous company is they want to know if you're likely to quit or to underperform and need to be fired. Putting "acquired" in the company name section is almost certainly enough to alleviate their fears by giving an alternative explanation. "I wanted to stay at this job, but couldn't, through no fault of my own."

[summer roost]

A few of the larger companies have announced hiring freezes of late - Google and Meta both announced hiring freezes recently

[frosty terrace]

thanks for the help, ill post my resume in a bit, maybe I need something more for it to stand out

[summer roost]

One other situation that might be specific to you: if some company contacted you 5 months ago, they probably won't reach out to you again only 5 months later.

[frosty terrace]

Lets say I send a resume out, how long before I get contacted? Does it take up to a week or longer or is it usually fast?

also stopped working on projects on github because ive been literally wasting every second job searching and i know that's bad.... this really sucks

not sure if I should put "Business Managment" for degree, or if management is fine.. honestly just trying anything to stand out at this point. Crazy how much potential I believe I have and how overlooked I am

[pastel thunder]

16LPA(Fixed)+8LPA(Bonus)(Joining and Retention)+8LPA ESOPs(vested equally across 4 years)

in this^
assume lpa = K per annum......so 16lpa= 16,000 (in curreny) per annum (just example, its not 1000 in real)
so for esop part what does it mean by "vested across 4 years"

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
This is not a channel for shitposts

[frosty terrace]

should I start looking for a non-remote position? maybe that might give me an edge since everyone wants to work remote

[smoky quest]

Look for whatever you feel comfortable. There are still tons of opportunities out there

[smoky quest]

Not sure what are these units, but the vesting part tends to refer to shares/stocks/options. Vesting over 4 years would most likely means you get all of them if you stay 4 years, half of them if you stay 2 years, and a fourth if you stay one year (assuming the contract allows for that and is not all or nothing, there should be a vesting scheduled somewhere)

[flint fog]

Hey, can anyone who has experience in the programming working space help me? I am going to start studying computer science in september and I am curious on how to begin a career in this space. I'm currently 17 years old and I've followed courses on HTML, CSS and Python basics. I'm now following a course on javascript and I'd really like to start doing jobs which fit my skills, but I don't know if any employer is ever ready to take in a freshman university student. I am interested in security and websites. So could anyone please tell me how and when I should start this career path?

[near ocean]

Youre probably not going to find full time work as a freshman but you could start putting a couple projects together and apply to internships, that should give you an advantage in the marketplace for when youre done

[smoky quest]

The main route is to go through a CS degree, which opens up the most opportunities and greatly boost your career.
In the mean time, learn things, explore the fantastic world of CS and build robots, websites, mobile apps, etc.

[frosty terrace]

any tips for my resume above? 😦

should I put certificates from websites that I did programming languages?

[serene kindle]

indicate size or time spent on projects so that they don't have to open it to guess how big it is

project needs some sort of timestamp on it ideally to know when you worked on it

[delicate bane]

dowcet posted this really good article earlier that may provide some perspective about the market atm https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-software-engineers/

[vernal ledge]

i have ping?

[vernal ledge]

what

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh this is not normal

[vapid jay]

It is normal.

[summer roost]

we do not allow recruiting here.

[vapid jay]

Not recuiting.

[dreamy spade]

This is a great article. I will be super-vigilant.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-do-you-protect-yourself-online-during-job-/

[summer roost]

then what is it?

[vapid jay]

Scouting.

It’s not a job. It’s not like hes doing a job.

[near ocean]

My guy what are you scouting for and why

[vapid jay]

That’s not for you to know is it?

[vernal ledge]

they're scouting for this

basically they want to make a new country from scratch using hacking

that will solve climate change and explore space

[summer roost]

as a mod, yes, it absolutely is for me to know

[peak halo]

!otn a it's absolutely for godly to know

[inner wren]

:ok_hand: Added it’s-absolutely-for-godly-to-know to the names list.

[summer roost]

@vapid jay that's... not how countries work, my guy

[near ocean]

This is the most childish thing i've read in a while and not appropriate for the channel, here we have real people asking for real advice about how to succeed in the industry, not some tween's pipe dream about hacking their way to owning a country

[vapid jay]

Country??

No no no you got it messed up.

The Emprotic Party
The Making Of The Perfect Political Party: Emprotic Party

The Emprotic Party emphasizes on Technological Advancement and Space Exploration, Which in theory lowers taxes, If we exploit spaces resources (asteroid mining) and in the process make technological advancements taxes would significantly decrease and bring us as a humanity forward hence the Greek term Empros (which means forwards), You may think that asteroid mining is a Sci-Fi idea but with most of the money coming from taxes we could easily accomplish this feat within 5 years. The exploitation of asteroids could potentially solve poverty and if poverty is solved we can grow more as a society also More job opportunities which brings the nation and the world forwards, Most of Taxes for right now will go into NASA and Technological Research (as an investment) instead of a whopping 1.92 trillion U.S. dollars (as of 2019) into the military, Putting money into the military is not helping our top priorities (Poverty, unemployment), Space exploration (Going to different cellestial bodies i.e The moon and Mars) on the other hand will solve multiple different problems (giving that we exploit the resources from asteroids we could easily build structures and bases) that we humans may face in the near future such as, Climate change, Ecological Collapse, Overpopulation and Global pandemics, Therefore concluding that the only way to make a perfect society is if we advance.

[vernal ledge]

Chat flood???

[vapid jay]

Not chat flood

i’m stating what our aims are

[vernal ledge]

yeah I didn't accept

[near ocean]

Im so tired of people hijacking my language to name their goofy ass parties

[true harness]

this is great but i don't think it belongs in #career-advice

[vapid jay]

Hijacking your language?

Um where’s your name?

[near ocean]

Not sure what that means, anyway try #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

[vapid jay]

If u don’t want to join it’s fine. Just don’t put us to shame

[vernal ledge]

ok but someone asked a question and I replied with the information I had

seems innocent enough, it's not like I leaked state secrets

[summer roost]

Sounds like this had nothing to do with careers, then? Doesn't belong in this channel at all.

[vernal ledge]

Hey, do you think any computer hacking jobs needs CS degree? It's kind of orthagonal to coding and computer architecture

This isn't malicious, I'm talking about legitimate jobs and only legitimate jobs

[near ocean]

The legitimate job is called either cybersecurity or penetration testing, and yes you should get a degree for it
Cybersec sounds like one of those careers that needs postgrad studies to break into as well, kinda like finance

[vapid jay]

Ok you know best discord mod.

[frosty terrace]

should i add hyperlinks to links on my resume?

can it mess up ATS?

[summer roost]

As long as it's in addition to the URL, that sounds fine

[frosty terrace]

is there a way to test a RTS scanner?

[summer roost]

Don't exclude the URL, since the link would be lost if it's printed - or copy pasted

[summer roost]

There's a few sites for that - do a quick Google and you'll find one

[frosty terrace]

are they safe?

should i be adding my address and phone number on my resume?

[true harness]

address is a little weird, phone number is ok

[frosty terrace]

is...
Phone: (phone number) | Email: (email.com)
better than
(phone number) | (email)

[split oasis]

guys who here has founded a company?

[ivory sluice]

is address really weird on tech resumes? every resume i've seen has a city and state if not a full address

[balmy spade]

I stopped including my address on resumes about ten years ago. Contact info only. Not sure if it's common though, I still see name, address, contact on a lot of them.

[vernal ledge]

Should i go a college?

After university, university doesn't teach hacking

[near ocean]

Youre not gonna get a job to hack, life isnt hollywood

[vernal ledge]

???

How do you know that already? You can't possibly have evidence

[near ocean]

The career path is cybersec and pen testing and theyre not at all what you think they are, theyre not "hacking"

[vernal ledge]

Oh come on, I know perfectly well what hacking is

[near ocean]

Why do you call it that then

[vernal ledge]

It's the name???

The field is literally called ethical hacking, do you want me to change that or what

I haven't even watched any movies about hacking except maybe Iron Man

[near ocean]

There is no such thing lol, jesus, the field is called cybersecurity

[vernal ledge]

Saying ethical hacking doesn't exist is ridiculous

We can't have a productive discussion if you continue to deny reality

[balmy spade]

No, there is very much a trend toward the term "ethical hacking". It is in essence InfoSec/CyberSec.

[vernal ledge]

Yes, cybersecurity isn't the same, I'm explicitly talking about the offensive side

[true harness]

that's still cybersecurity

[balmy spade]

That is CyberSec/InfoSec. Just red team not blue.

[vernal ledge]

Yes but that word doesn't describe it, would it be accurate if I referred to you as "the human"? Sure, but it doesn't convey enough information to be useful

There's a lot of names for it and related activities, ethical hacking, offensive cybersec, red teaming, pentesting. It literally doesn't matter what I call it

[split oasis]

that;s like... not an academic discipline... maybe a certification xD

if you want to be a hacker, study math and psychology (?

[balmy spade]

It's absolutely an academic discipline. A good half dozen of them really. Networking, security, forensics, programming, communication, business...

[vernal ledge]

Math? I'm not Bruce Schneier

[split oasis]

then study psychology

[vernal ledge]

Yes, I'll probably take some courses on the other thing but planning to take CS

[split oasis]

many hackers just deceive people into giving them access

[vernal ledge]

Idk how university works, but I think there's something called a "major" which you're only allowed to do a single subject mainly? Or something

Sorry, I don't understand postsecondary can someone explain that to me

[true harness]

i think his point was you're not going to get a degree that says "b.s. ethical hacking"

[vernal ledge]

No shit

[ivory sluice]

chill out, maybe walk around a bit for 5 minutes

[split oasis]

😂

[balmy spade]

Well, I certainly don't know what degrees are out there.

[vernal ledge]

?

I saw my teachers say that to some kids to making jokes in class but what does it mean

[true harness]

it means calm down

[vernal ledge]

oh, I am pretty calm rn just reading a book

YA fiction because I'm still a teenager no matter what 😛

[split oasis]

onyx

[vernal ledge]

heya! 👋

[split oasis]

you are in the math server

[ivory sluice]

go to off-topic >>> #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[split oasis]

I just hacked your account and saw that (?

[summer roost]

I'd say that if you're local to the company you should include your address, since it might be a selling point. CC: @frosty terrace

If you're not local, listing it might be a negative, so I wouldn't list it in that case.

[vernal ledge]

I want to know what are the degrees pentesting contractor wants? Is it still CS? Or are some universities teaching hacking as a course?

Because how to build computer using pipelining contours seems pretty disconnected from the jobs usually done there

[true harness]

some schools have cybersecurity degrees. CS is also fine

[vernal ledge]

I've heard of some colleges maybe teach something specific to one job, maybe it was some special course for Penetration Tester?

[near ocean]

My CS course had a cybersec module and the school has a cybersec and pentesting msc course as well, it depends on the school

[summer roost]

there wouldn't be a whole major for penetration testing. A CS degree with a concentration in security is likely the closest you'll get.

[vernal ledge]

But idk if I can still go a college AFTER. A university

[summer roost]

are you in a country where "university" and "college" mean different things, or a country where the terms are used interchangeably?

[vernal ledge]

What's concentration?

[true harness]

a focus inside the major

[vernal ledge]

College has "jobs" like Software Developer or 3D Artist, but university has "degrees" like Computer Science Master's

[balmy spade]

That's not entirely accurate.

[summer roost]

what country is this?

[vernal ledge]

Canada

[summer roost]

within a major, there are many courses that are required, and some courses that are optional. A "concentration" or "track" or "focus" or "module" is a set of courses related to the major that are grouped around a single topic.

[vernal ledge]

College doesn't give any type of degree like Doctorate but only university has that

[vernal ledge]

Ah I've seen only about track and module but that makes sense now

[summer roost]

This might be true for Canada. I'm not familiar with the Canada system, but a quick Google seems to corroborate roughly this

[split oasis]

"Colleges and universities are part of the post-secondary education system in Ontario. Colleges generally offer programs of study that can be applied towards a career. Some colleges offer courses that lead to certification in specific areas. Universities focus on academic and professional programs."

[vernal ledge]

I'm not from Ontario but that seems correct

[balmy spade]

hmm, fair call out that I have near zero experience in post high-school. I was quite certain that college in Canada mimic'ed the states. Common for the 2year associate degree and 4 year BA.

[balmy spade]

Interesting.

[summer roost]

in the US, the terms "college" and "university", while technically different, are used interchangeably colloquially. If you get advice here that uses the word "college", you should probably just mentally replace it with the word "university".

[near ocean]

So college is trade school? I'd say go uni if you can

[split oasis]

By the way @vernal ledge, penetration testing might be one of the skills a hacker has... but the skillset goes beyond, that's why I mentioned math and psychology but for what you want... I think college might be more appropriate, assuming they offer something related to cybersecurity

[vernal ledge]

College is more useful for positions like artist while university like scientist and doctor

[vernal ledge]

But it doesn't teach hacking (note: probably college doesn't either, haven't checked)

[split oasis]

what kind of hacker do you want to be?

[near ocean]

Again with the hacking, what kind of hacking are you talking about

[vernal ledge]

Is it allowed to take multiple courses in university? Like Psychology and CS at the same time? I need to go to university eight years for that?

[vernal ledge]

I am not planning be red team , it is too hard to find jobs

[summer roost]

uni absolutely does.

[split oasis]

in the US, yes, I got 2 majors and 1 minor and took lots of classes outside my areas of study

[near ocean]

What does that mean

[summer roost]

then... wait, I'm confused. "Ethical hacking" refers entirely to red team, doesn't it?

[true harness]

you did 2 majors and a minor at the same time? in 4 years?

[vapid jay]

is being a programmer well paid

[summer roost]

no one describes security consulting or blue team as "ethical hacking"

[split oasis]

6 years

[vernal ledge]

my city one doesn't I checked

[near ocean]

Yes

[summer roost]

depends on your skill level, but it can be very well paid, yes.

[split oasis]

the mayors are related, physics and math

[summer roost]

There's no security track in their computer science program?

[vernal ledge]

I don't think there is

[summer roost]

that sounds... very surprising.

[vapid jay]

so im trynna make it so whenever i wanna add a file i can instantly add it using argv yk how?

[summer roost]

I don't think that I've ever heard of a CS program that didn't let you focus on security related topics.

[balmy spade]

To the best of my knowledge the term ethical hacking is being used to specifically focus on the skills used by a red team. Sort of a re-branding as the entire SecOps community tries to bring in more talent. They have some work to do with their gatekeeping though, imo.

[summer roost]

That doesn't seem to have anything to do with this channel's topic.

[vapid jay]

yeh true but the other channels aren't responding lol

[summer roost]

that's my understanding of the term as well.

[summer roost]

see #❓｜how-to-get-help. It's rude to ask questions in channels that are for something else.

[vernal ledge]

Ok then i guess it IS red team

[vapid jay]

okay sry

[near ocean]

Nobody calls it ethical hacking either, its cyber security, auditing and risk management, pen testing, i've worked at an ISO27001 compliant software company and no one would even ever think of calling it "ethical hacking" you'd be laughed out the room if an auditor caught you saying that

[vernal ledge]

I'm not well informed about this topic

The name isn't the important part ok???

[summer roost]

yeah, "ethical hacking" is the new buzzword for red team.

[balmy spade]

Nobody "called" it ethical hacking. Terms and words change and even in my field the term is used more frequently than just six months ago.

[summer roost]

right, but you've gotten answers about the non-name part of things. You want a CS degree, and within that degree you want to focus on security courses.

[near ocean]

Its a buzzword used by people and companies to get kids to buy certifications that dont matter, so why keep using it?

[summer roost]

it's a term used to get people interested in the field, even if it's not the term that professionals use for that field.

[near ocean]

In a degree you'll find these modules called cybersecurity, so if you've been skipping past those thinking theyre not the same thing you should go back and reconsider them

[vernal ledge]

Ok I'll try and find a security course if there is any. Thanks!

[vernal ledge]

I'm 14 I barely know what a degree is, much less the content of the CS course at my local uni

I think usually they would want me to pay for that information

[near ocean]

The content should be available on their websites, you could also order one of those leaflet books with more in depth descriptions of the courses, i forget what theyre called

[vernal ledge]

That's pretty funny I don't think naming things differently is going to help on that front

[near ocean]

Prospectus? I think theyre called

[vernal ledge]

"red team" makes me think of TF2, "ethical hacking" makes me think of criminals

[true harness]

criminals are unethical

[split oasis]

would you be first gen in college?

[vernal ledge]

what's that sorry gtg talk 2 u later in like an hour thx

[near ocean]

You should pretty much always be wary of things being labelled "ethical" or "legal" or whatever other shady qualifier

[summer roost]

Well, it seems to have helped in your case. You're interested in the field, largely because of the name.

[split oasis]

😂 asking if your parents have gone to college or uni

[vernal ledge]

I'm interested because it's fun? I literally didn't know this name when I started

[balmy spade]

On of the challenging things, I've found, in a career focused on information security is that the skills you learn and practice are seen as dangerous or disingenuous to other communities. Red teaming practices involve penetration testing, cracking, and all manner of subjects that we don't support in this server at all.

But we need Red teams. So the challenge becomes how do we keep training the next minds that will be the ones to find the newest vulnerability and patch them without alienating them before they even start?

[vernal ledge]

yes they go university a good one

[summer roost]

Information about what courses are part of a curriculum is not something you need to pay for

[split oasis]

then you can involve them in this... I don't know if I was a parent for a 14 yo I would prefer to be involved in this

[near ocean]

This only happens in tech, and I think its because of the influence of popular culture, nobody's showing what "hacking" actually looks like, in my opinion its boring af
You dont see auditors having this aura of uncertainty around them, yet they literally do the same kind of work for a different industry with different methods

[jagged glade]

and the added challenge of: how do we ensure that the whitehats grow in number and skill faster than blackhats, considering that teaching and training one of them inevitably trains both?

[summer roost]

Well, compensation, mostly.

[balmy spade]

I don't draw the line there. Life is not a box, nobody fits in a single one. I want to support the interests of those learning.

[true harness]

huh? don't we want to not have criminals

[near ocean]

kpmg auditors caught cheating on an exam about ethics precisely for that sweet compensation and auditor benefits

[balmy spade]

My statement has nothing to do with criminal, or legal concepts at all. My question is how to open the doors to learning and knowledge, not keep them behind gates. The ethics of society are a different challenge. I want knowledge to be available and paths to learning that knowledge to not be obfuscated in the fear of what someone will do with that knowledge.

[true harness]

sure, but isn't black hat hacking criminal by definition?

[balmy spade]

I'm not sure what black hat hacking has to do with my statements and pondering so perhaps I've mistakenly assumed you were referencing what I said.

[vernal ledge]

They went to in an entirely different country, believe me, they are helping me much more than some chatting website for gamers

They will pay my tuition as well, I've got nothing to worry about

[vernal ledge]

your opinion that it's boring I don't agree with. I'm sure some people also started coding and thought it was fun and got a coding job

I never watched any popular culture about hacking although I listen darknet diaries which is a podcast that says "don't commit crimes, even smart level headed people can commit crimes. don't, you will go to jail" which is quite an unappealing picture of hacking

[vernal ledge]

it seems as suspicious as if I said I will give you a 100% unpoisoned breakfast

I much prefer the real meaning of hacking than "breaking into computer" which is a small subset of it

They should not co-opt words which have meaning already

[delicate bane]

change the culture (easier said than done). pentesting is cool and all but you find that vulnerability, you better try just as hard, if not harder, to find a way to defend against it. purple teams are the way forward now, and many companies cant afford the headcount to have a separate pentester nowadays.

one day you are red, next you are blue, day after you are doing network admin duties

etc.

everyone wants to be a pentester, but who wants to be on-call at the SOC desk

[vernal ledge]

i like purple it my favourite color

well lavender specifically but who cares about that details, no one not me for sure

[delicate bane]

great, thats not really on-topic tho

[vernal ledge]

yes it is??? we are talking about red teaming and blue teaming, attack and defense

these are legitimate jobs you do in a company, no matter if you're an independent contractor or the company's own people

[summer roost]

your favorite color has nothing to do with security, and even less with careers.

[vernal ledge]

oh 😭

i was joking and being sarcastic though

[delicate bane]

purple team is a legit cybersecurity term as well as white team. i wasnt being blasé

[vernal ledge]

i know that , i am agreeing with you using a tongue in cheek color analogy

[coarse crag]

maybe it's good to build a culture where whenever you learn how to build something (software) you also try to learn/figure out how to attack it. that would be alot of work and expectations for the new generations of developers, but idk, that idea sounds nice. it's not like human brain's capacity can't grow either. (nvm, that sounds like tiny little wonderland)

[idle hollow]

Hello can anyone help me?
I need help

[coarse crag]

it would be better for you to address your problem so that the people reading can help you.

[idle hollow]

OK
See I use Replit and used python to code a project
Everything is fine but when I run it it says "Port 8080 is already in use either identify it or use a different port"
I need help

[coarse crag]

that's not about career-discussion. i think you should open a help channel or ask about it in topic channel

[idle hollow]

How to? I'm new here

[coarse crag]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[vernal ledge]

i think that is literally all developers in 2022

[coarse crag]

not really? i mean, we all are already busy learning how to build stuff, it takes additional effort to learn the security part of the software imo.. security is not everyone's expertise

[vernal ledge]

but it is the same as developing software

[coarse crag]

developing software vs learning how to break a software is the same?

[vernal ledge]

yes, two sides of the same coin if you will
same skillset of reading code clearly, no matter if it is for debugging or attacking

[coarse crag]

i agree with those being two sides of the same coin. but i'd still think of them as two separate skills. maybe my knowledge is very limited that i can't see your perception. it's just that whenever i hear people talk about hacking vs software development, they seem to perceive those differently. i watched a youtube video where a hacker explained that she doesn't know how to build a software at all and that those two are a completely different thing. but then again, my knowledge is very limited.

[vernal ledge]

that's very different from my experience, I guess everyone has different ideas

[coarse crag]

i see, yeah.

[coarse crag]

i think the theory is just the same as criminal vs police. a police wouldn't know how to break open a door lock, and a burglar wouldn't know how the law/court system works. unless the burglar was a police, or the police was a burglar. well, that's just how i perceive it, i guess.

[vernal ledge]

but they are both me

[coarse crag]

?

[pastel thunder]

So one year total compensation is definitely not 8 from esop.
Its actually just 2, right.
And is it same for next 4 years , after first 4 years are over?

[velvet viper]

are leetcodes required for every tech company or mostly just faang?

[true harness]

depends on country, but in the US it's fairly common

[velvet viper]

i see.. thanks

[whole wasp]

Is it good to have a summary in resume

[summer roost]

It has fallen out of popularity in the US. I probably wouldn't include it unless I had extra space that I needed to fill.

[whole wasp]

When is a gap in employment too much im currently at 6 months but I have years listed instead of months

[summer roost]

There's no point where it becomes too much. The longer the gap is, the more likely it is that future employers will ask about it in an interview. They'll be trying to figure out if the reason for the gap is that you weren't able to get or keep other jobs, which would be a red flag for your employability

[whole wasp]

do you have to tell them the actual reason? What’s a good reason. What if u just go back to school

[summer roost]

When you accept a job, one of the standard papers they make you sign is to swear that you didn't mislead them in the interview process. If you lie and they find out, they can fire you, and possibly sue you, and possibly have you investigated for criminal fraud.

So, yes. You should tell them the truth. You can tell them the version of the truth that reflects best on you, but you should not lie.

[whole wasp]

So if u say u have been traveling or taking a break or taking online courses is bad? Also, why would u tell them about a job u Wer only at 1-3 months many people say not to even list it on resume

[summer roost]

No, lying is bad. If you've been traveling, or taking a sabbatical, or taking courses full time, it's fine to say that.

Likewise, it's a bad idea to mislead them about what your previous jobs were. It's pretty standard in the US to make job offers contingent upon a background check, and your previous employer will likely show up on that background check, and that might cost you the job if they discover that you lied to them about what your previous position was.

Think of resumes like ads, except instead of advertising some brand, it's advertising you. Just like ads, it's expected that you provide the facts in a way that presents you in the best possible light. And just like ads, it's a very bad idea to outright lie or engage in false advertising.

[smoky quest]

After your granted is vested, that's it, it's over.
It's common for companies to continue granting new shares over time during compensation review. But they don't have to.

[pastel thunder]

So, all that remains is the Basic and performance bonus
Almost feels like a scam

[smoky quest]

why would it be like a scam?

[pastel thunder]

Not even a single company that came to my college mentioned split in detail. All i see is a CTC.
Someone who hasnt specially look into it, like me, had the wrong idea till now

I think thats one more reason people change job every 2 to 3 yrs

[smoky quest]

Yeah, compensation isn't openly and explicitly talked about at school.

And yes, people leaving once their grant is fully vested/exercised is a common theme. But that doesn't make it a scam

[buoyant kindle]

Hi there guys. I am pursuing Masters in Data Analytics in 🇨🇮 . I learnt Neo4j (Graph Database Tool) while comparing its performance against SQL Server. I have grown interest in this tool. So, how much is the scope of Neo4j or Graph Databases and should I seek career in it? I got very small overall industrial experience. Thanks for your help 🙂

[near ocean]

What is your experience? Have you worked as both cybersec and software dev? Is this just from reading stuff online? Please explain

[fallow crest]

Hello, junior sourcer/recruiter here, again, i asked before, but I am eager for more opinions, hear me out please, thanks. I hade IT as major in HS, so i am pretty confident that i have some background, but still, i don't know. I have one question that i cant figure out, so i decide that it would be best to ask programmers directly. When trying to find programmers for client, i got lot of ignoring, well, that happens and its pretty common, but what is uncommon for programmers is amount of hostility, is there some particular reason? are you bothered or feel just like another number on our report? is it about attitude in emails, or is it just that you don't want to get sold to another company?

[lapis wind]

Generally I ignore most recruiters. Mostly because half of them either don't pay attention to the roles I do, don't offer better compensation to convince me to switch or a crypto jobs (which are an instant no)

[near ocean]

Can you say more about what kind of positions youre pitching to programmers? I too would definitely not take any shady sounding crypto gigs

[lapis wind]

Overall Most of the devs I know don't generally respond in a hostile way if they do respond. Although I can guarantee if it's a pretty big nonsense email you may get posted to a internal bored and laughed at

[fallow crest]

so, no: "i have this special and unique option for you"
and go just straight to:

• price range
• project
• tech
• etc etc

[lapis wind]

Which countries are your clients in and for what price ranges?

[fallow crest]

this is oriental for me, iam not actively searching
to know how to aproach

[lapis wind]

Extending that, im getting at essentially if you're trying to recruit for a role while equally paying under the average for that role and location, then you're probably gonna get some push back

[fallow crest]

so, basically, problem is that recruiters expect programmers to don't know they price, and be wiling to grab anything that involve code?

[near ocean]

i think the most important thing is to get the project and tech right, by looking at what each candidate has listed
Low salaries I dont mind, I just scroll past them, but if people try and sell me on tech i've never used before I get mad

it takes 3 seconds on my linkedin profile to see what i've used professionally

[lapis wind]

Mmm im not necessarily against new tech, sometimes I see that as a plus providing your "New tech" isn't "Our legacy dot net code base"

[fallow crest]

so, insead of ultra personalised mails, send something relevant with good pricetag?

[near ocean]

personalised emails should be relevant with a good pricetag, otherwise how is it personalised?

talk to your boss about what your budget is for each role, if its below market average then raise to be at least market average

[fallow crest]

you can just spam in that you is interested in him becouse of something something, and something catch your eyes becouse he worked as something in his free
then you have it personalised, but not relevant

[near ocean]

yea thats not gonna work, lets be real, recruiters barely even look at your profile
spamming me with irrelevant shit will get you posted on a facebook meme page for sure and it might also get a sarcastic response out of me

[buoyant seal]

Dejavu, this question was answered just recently a few days ago

[fallow crest]

yep, askin for more opinions 😄

good to see you again

[delicate bane]

i usually just ignore them tbh.

i dont really see hostility, but it might be country-specific/location-specific

[fallow crest]

in my country i got flamed few times, so, thats the main reason why I am asking 😄

[near ocean]

What country is that (if you dont mind sharing)

[wraith jay]

LMAOOOOOO

[small stump]

hey!
I am new to these programming languages ....

I want to know about Instagram
like what languages are used...

from App perspective and Website too

Anyone??

[modest fern]

Hi everyone!

Please reply to me!

[small stump]

hi

[gilded valley]

this is a question better suited to #python-discussion or an off-topic channel, at best tangentially related to careers

[small stump]

ok

[sharp vigil]

what sort of technologies would a credit card company mainly use ?

[vernal ledge]

no I play video games of both for only a hobby

[gilded valley]

a payment network operator (Visa etc), or just someone who issues credit cards (Capital One etc)?

[near ocean]

so your only experience with cybersecurity is playing games where the theme is cybersecurity?

[gilded valley]

tbf, that's got to be worth at least a PHD or two

real cybersecurity is all about QTEs and puzzle games where you connect pipes right?

[near ocean]

yea if youre 14 you should worry about finishing high school first and definitely not get heated when someone else "mislabels" a profession you know nothing about

and also maybe read #career-advice message

[vernal ledge]

yes, they are known as CTFs and only challenge to the technological side, not phishing or anything

[vernal ledge]

I'm finishing high school next year, then what?

[near ocean]

video games are not CTFs, thats like saying playing cyber punk is like attending a hackathon

[sharp vigil]

hey thanks for the reply, It would be a company comparable to visa yes

Im starting there soon and want to get a head start

[gilded valley]

university is by far your best bet. From the sounds of it your current skillbase isn't particularly broad, so trying to differentiate yourself without a degree will be near impossible

[near ocean]

this is a nice interview question to ask btw, what kind of tech they use, from languages to frameworks to other tools
did they not mention what theyre using?

[sharp vigil]

she mentioned java but i answered the questions using python

[near ocean]

Go to university for computer science, after that maybe look at a MSc in cybersec

[gilded valley]

Payment networks are a different kind of beast to normal enterprisey software. If it's a payment network company, then you can probably just find out online what tech underpins their network - there's only 3 major payment networks out there.

[gilded valley]

if it's Java, there's a good chance it's doing something a bit funky like Reactive stuff in Springboot, definitely worth just trying to find out directly from the company

[sharp vigil]

I messaged the interviewer after i got the acceptance call but no reply yet

I just dont want to sleepwalk into a fucking nightmare

[vague crane]

Who has discord.py server?

[sharp vigil]

so how are you with cobal or something from a stephen king novel

[dreamy echo]

Hi

[gilded valley]

At this point most of the critical COBOL running on mainframes is wrapped in layer upon layer of abstractions in other languages - and only touched by IBM consultants who get paid 10x what you do - it's unlikely they'd throw you in at the deep end on it.

[dreamy echo]

I will probably start university in CS this year

[sharp vigil]

i didnt even spell it right hahaha

[dreamy echo]

any advice?

I am trying to make a unique project for myself but im just braindead and cant figure out anything

[gilded valley]

Make something that you yourself actually want to use. A calculator for a game you play, a tool to manage a hobby in your personal life, a game that you would find fun to play etc

[vernal ledge]

Ok even i don't know what is a MSc is it Masters degree (second level of university)?

[vernal ledge]

Like Google CTF and Deloitte Hacky Holidays 2022: Unlock The City and b01lersctf that one, sorry if I specified wrong I guess they aren't "video games" in a traditional sense, I called them that because it is a game played with a screen

[dreamy echo]

Thanks, is there anything else I can do like knowledgevise before the uni? (learn this, learn that etc.)

[sharp vigil]

yes

read a book called the code hidden langauge of software and hardware

[vernal ledge]

Also by thw way is every level like bach deg we and Master's degree and PhD, what are the lengths of learning in these degrees like ik Bachelor's is four years

[gilded valley]

IMO getting comfortable writing code is the best thing you can do - you'll obvoiusly have intro to programming style units, but if you get to the point where you're comfortable messing around in whatever language they expect, then you'll have a much easier time than a lot of your peers

[vernal ledge]

Can i speed up degree by taking one million classes every day?(parallel processing)

[gilded valley]

no

[sharp vigil]

you could prob find a bootcamp making that promise

[vernal ledge]

why I heard some people do that in the internet like smart rich people

[near ocean]

are you one of those?

[digital fjord]

I am pretty sure my school will let you do that, but it is extremely difficult due to the way prerequisites work.

trying to get a degree done early more or less means you lose all your social life, which is a large part of the value of uni.

[zealous path]

Anyone in London looking for a Graduate Data Engineer?
Possibly with a focus on APIs?

[near ocean]

this isnt a server you can find jobs in, try linkedin, indeed, totaljobs, etc

[zealous path]

You think I haven’t tried there?
The amount of times I got rejected from a graduate job due to a candidate with 5+ years of work experience….

[near ocean]

youre applying to the wrong ads if you see them asking for 5+ years experience

[zealous path]

The problem isn’t the job spec.
It’s the candidates with 5+ years of work experience applying for graduate jobs

[near ocean]

thats not a thing lol, why would anyone do that

[gilded valley]

this seems utterly insane to me - the market for data engineers and related professions is incredibly hot

[near ocean]

how would you even know you got beat by a mid-senior dev

[zealous path]

Welcome to London, where all the graduate positions are snagged by non graduates

[gilded valley]

I live in London

[near ocean]

i live and work in london

[gilded valley]

I am in a data engineer adjacent graduate role - I think your experience just does not line up with what is happening in the broader job market

[near ocean]

5 years experience probably nets you 3-4x whatever grads get paid

[gilded valley]

I really wish we had US quality of data for salaries in the UK - I really want to know what the average software engineer gets paid in London

[near ocean]

glassdoor says 47k but thats an average across all salaries with the title "Software Developer"

[zealous path]

Grad pay is £30,000 average

[gilded valley]

"Software engineer" is average 53k according to glassdoor https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/london-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM1035_KO7,24.htm

[gilded valley]

I want data - not numbers someone has made up. I can make up my own numbers

[near ocean]

i dont understand why there's so much disparity between "developer" and "engineer"

surely its some boomer effect where they think youre not as good as "engineers" back in the day cause you dont use C

[gilded valley]

yeah - this is one of the things that makes me question glassdoor numbers. If you ask ten softwarey people to describe the difference, you're not going to get particularly cohesive answers

[near ocean]

I started at 25k

[zealous path]

Ok

[gilded valley]

I started on 40k last year, friend started on 33, I know someone at UBS who started on 40 last year. I've heard of multiple starting salaries of 50-100, and one salary of >100

[near ocean]

anyway, if youre getting calls back and interviews then youre on the right track
if not, you need to look at your cv for improvement

[summer roost]

I doubt it? People think that "engineer" sounds more advanced than "developer", so the places that call their coders "software engineers" value them more highly.

[near ocean]

why do they think that tho?

[gilded valley]

tbf, is this not just a more generous phrasing of what Mariosis said?

[near ocean]

i wanna blame boomers regardless, i think

[summer roost]

I don't think so - I think it's the exact opposite.

I think the cause and effect are the reverse of what mariosis suggested

[gilded valley]

so you think that engineers actually have the more difficult/complex day-to-day vs developers?

I really would have thought the day-to-day would be pretty similar, enough that it wouldn't explain a 10+% difference in salary

[summer roost]

No, more that engineering is recognized as a group of high paying professions, and so companies who want to signal that they pay better call their programmers "engineers"

[near ocean]

what does this mean then?
same company, different titles, different average pay

what do software engineers do that software devs dont or cant

and should people be picking between these nonsense titles when applying? 20k is a significant difference

[summer roost]

Well, they're not, right? Google doesn't actually have a position called "Software Developer" and a position called "Software Engineer". The job titles on Glassdoor are self reported, and so they won't necessarily match up to what the company calls the position

[near ocean]

Hm but why would people report the wrong titles like so

[gilded valley]

surely implicit in that is that engineers are doing the harder stuff - higher valued employees = higher skilled employees in the aggregate

[summer roost]

Why must that be implicit in what I said?

Why can't choosing the word "engineer" just be a signal from the company that they're competing for top talent on pay, without telling you anything about whether they think "engineers" are more skilled than "developers"?

[vapid jay]

well it sounds like my computational journey may take much longer than expected or fizzle out. trying to break into bioinformatics, algorithms begins in 3 weeks. i've been prestudying all summer including reading CLRS, discrete math, algebra, writing code. i've got a nice mergesort and randomized quicksort running. haven't gotten into graphs and graph traversal yet. met with prof last night and she didn't like my algebra skills and that i haven't taken data structures. wish me luck lads

if it doesn't go well i'm going to withdraw and go back into industry (hopefully as a scientist) and try to take college algebra and and data structures in person if possible (idk if unis actually would offer this stuff nights or weekends though). online school is the worst DO NOT do it

you get zero support, no TA, no tutor, just paying for piece of paper and the unis know you need it so they do f***all, don't answer emails, etc. this is a prestigious uni in the US btw

[near ocean]

that also sounds kinda scummy, just like w3s is using w3c to trick people into thinking they are quality, affiliated content
google is recruiting kids with laptops, not chartered engineers

[gilded valley]

I'm just saying more pay = on average better people = on average harder work

[hearty island]

i got the job, the recruiter took some time to process everything

[vapid jay]

congratulations!

[hearty island]

thanks!

[vapid jay]

what position?

[hearty island]

project manager intern 🗿🗿🗿

[vapid jay]

🎉

[hearty island]

now i have to let the other 4 interviews know i’m tied up

at least i think i do?

[summer roost]

Perhaps, but that's still conflating cause vs effect. That's an argument that software engineers do more difficult work than software developers because they're paid more, not that software engineers are paid more because they do more difficult work

[smoky quest]

Is it a EU vs US thing?
in some EU country, that's kind of by definition. Developers would be bs level and "engineer" can be a protected title for ms level (from specific schools)

[summer roost]

No, it's about pay disparity based on job title in places where "engineer" is not a protected title

My argument is basically that companies that intend to pay better are more likely to choose "software engineer" as the job title than "software developer", based on people already associating engineering with high salaries

[smoky quest]

ah that's fair.
The same has happened to with qa -> qe or ops -> devops -> sre

[summer wasp]

if i wanna do data science but the college i wanna go to only has computer science, would it be fine to then go with computer science? i really like data analysis like analyzing stock/crypto price data, making algorithms based on that and all things in that sphere and i already know python and im pretty good at programming with it so i prob wouldnt suck at computer science, but i just dont know cuz i dont have many college options since im from eu and i wanna go study in us and most colleges are very expensive and this one that i have rn is prob one of very little options i have

i also dont know if a job solely based on data science would be that interesting, i sure love data science as a hobby, but im just not sure if doing it full time would be that interesting

[gilded valley]

if i wanna do data science but the college i wanna go to only has computer science, would it be fine to then go with computer science
Yes

i really like data analysis like analyzing stock/crypto price data, making algorithms based on that and all things in that sphere
This doesn't really line up with a typical data science degree. A typical data science degree would have a lot of ML which is realistically a different beast compared to quanty stuff

[summer wasp]

whats ml and quanty?

[gilded valley]

quanty is more what you describe

Machine learning is AI, things like deep learning and computer vision

[summer wasp]

what i like messing around with is data models that ud apply for trading/investing, data stuff with pandas and all that

[summer wasp]

yeah, thats what i like

[gilded valley]

Quantitative financial models are a substantially different sphere to deep learning and AI, a data science degree will focus on the latter

[summer wasp]

i take that back, i didnt read the whole thing. i do like these things, but i dont actually do anything related to that

[gilded valley]

It's a UK university, but there's a good chance there's similar degrees in your country, but this is the kind of degree you might want to be looking for if you're looking to get into the intersection of finance and computer science https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/msc-mathematical-and-computational-finance

[summer wasp]

so ur saying that if i was hired as a data scientist, i wouldnt be doing no stock/crypto analysis and all that i said before?

[gilded valley]

That's a masters which would want maths as the underlying degree

[summer wasp]

i really only care about us colleges cuz thats where i wanna later live and all that

[gilded valley]

it's not impossible - there is overlap between the two fields - but in general, no

[gilded valley]

A straight computer science bachelors with a minor in finance or maths seems like a more likely path then

[summer wasp]

i see. i kinda suck at math like with the school stuff, my grades in math were pretty bad and the upcoming last year of high school ill try my best to really finish off strong, but if the college will look at my 11 grade math grades, they wont be impressed

[gilded valley]

If you want someone else to pay you to build out models that predict stock/crypto prices, you need to be good at maths - that is the primary ask

[summer wasp]

yeah, i get that. ik this may sound a bit stupid, but how could i get good at math? as i said before, ill tryhard in school this upcoming year, but besides that, what else can i really do?

[vapid jay]

guys i wrote a flask website using few tutorials. its very similar to what is available on these sources, is it ok to put in onto my cv? Ive no professional experience to put on there

[gilded valley]

Same way you get good at anything - practice a lot, if you don't like your highschool maths teacher, work through Khan Academy or some other online course/set of lectures

[summer wasp]

i feel like my logical thinking is pretty good and i feel like i have what it takes just because i always mess with numbers and im always able to solve any kind of mathematical or logical problem i come across

[summer wasp]

thanks, ill check it out

do u think a year would be enough if i regularly spent time learning with khan academy and did all my math homework and all that for me to get good at it?

[true harness]

sure, as long as the code is well written it probably can't hurt

[gilded valley]

Yeah probably. The test is really your grades though, if you're struggling to get good grades still, then you probably need to either study more or differently

[true harness]

^ now is a great time to make sure your study habits are good

[summer wasp]

this year i should have a different math teacher whom we're kinda cool with, so if i get her it will help a lot, cuz the last one was a nightmare

[gilded valley]

Recruiting is not allowed

[opal plume]

Got it

[vapid jay]

Thanks. Ill customise it a little as well

[vernal ledge]

I will if I do parallel processing in irl

[vernal ledge]

I'll be 16, I need to AVOID a social life or get kidnapped by pedophiles

[near ocean]

A little bit more self awareness and maturity might come in handy too

[vernal ledge]

Sorry I'm very bad at both of those

[near ocean]

Maybe work on those two things

[vernal ledge]

Trying to improve though

I am going to be more mature by taking Social Studies grade 12

[buoyant seal]

Read manga 🤣
It has a lot of higher math related books
Regression analysis and etc