career-advice

[rotund crest]

It does, I find it to be somewhat of a legitimate concern. But they said they are basing more of me programming ability based off of an overview of past projects I worked on. They said that I seem to have enough experience that they don't really mind training me on what I am missing because it's easier to train people to code than to understand the theory.

[delicate bane]

maybe their expectations for you arent much, especially for a junior role

[rotund crest]

It's not a junior role

[delicate bane]

hmmmm did you ask about the position and what it entails

like, what do they expect you to be doing exactly

[peak halo]

If they're willing to give you time to learn, that's really valuable.

[rotund crest]

It is basically a machine learning dev position for a software based consulting firm. They would be giving a wide variety of projects based on whatever the needs of that particular client are.

[delicate bane]

ahhh i see

i can see it going either way, really depends on the consulting firm

[rotund crest]

I told them my current salary and they kind of winced and said they could probably match it.

but it would be a disaster if they give me an offer and there is a serious mismatch in terms of expectations

They do know that I am a Mathematician, not a Computer Scientist though

[delicate bane]

hmm thats a tough call to make, especially since you dont really know what theyll expect from you. and more importantly, how much support youll get from other devs.

[lapis wind]

tbf they probably find the Maths background compelling

as you'll probably pick up the language quickly and the ML libs in use. But the maths background can take a long time to form

[delicate bane]

just on a podcast i heard today, the guests were talking about how math peeps make some of the best data engineers lol (they said it half-jokingly ofc)

[rotund crest]

It’s real awkward because leetcode is quite easy to me. But I have no experience whatsoever in some pretty mundane stuff like, I don’t know, websockets

[delicate bane]

i feel that. i have learned more networking in the past couple months than i ever thought possible lol

[rotund crest]

I 100% fall on my face when leetcode asks me to write a bash script or if I were asked to do anything in powershell

I saw a meme the other day that was like "They call me 007, 0 coding, 0 communication, 7 udemy course certificates". I wonder how far off I am from a 007.

[random pagoda]

100% agreed the total cost get this is around 80,000 USD and as coming from the 3rd world country. It takes almost a whole life to save up funds to this amount.

Develop and host an API with Flask (Really easy, super interesting and has high practical implementation (i.e. in Desktop apps, Android apps, Web Apps) host it on heruko make a report on it and submit it.

[hearty island]

oh great, so indeed and glassdoor merged? now they both suck lmao

[lapis wind]

they merged?

[hearty island]

yep

[lapis wind]

Oh god, welp. Time to say goodbye to indeed

[vapid jay]

Do you guys think programming is a good path in life? If so, why?

[lapis wind]

Do what you enjoy, I enjoy programming :) So I would say yes.

[vapid jay]

Same here!

[peak halo]

you're asking a bunch of programmers. but if you like learning and problem solving, it would probably be a satisfying career for you. and it pays comparably well among office jobs.

[vapid jay]

But will programming ever help you in any financial situation?

[near ocean]

I cant find anything about this glassdoor & indeed merger thingy but i dont think it matters that mch anyway

[vapid jay]

I defneitly do, that's why I like to code, basically challenging my self

[hearty island]

idk i think indeed and glassdoor are pretty busted... maybe it's my resume

[near ocean]

in what sense

[vapid jay]

im in a loop idk what i should learn like go with python js learn webdev ml ai what do you suggest im stuck

[vapid jay]

Go with what you like

idk what i like

Dont stress out and try to learn all languages at once, that'll not help you by any chance

[lapis wind]

I mean, I think so. Apparently I earn considerably over the average wage for my age

[hearty island]

i never hear back

[near ocean]

probably your resume then

[vapid jay]

Go watch the basics of py, js etc, that'd help you find something you'd be interested in

[vapid jay]

That's really good, what do you focus on?

[vapid jay]

ok thx mate

[inner wren]

Hey @hearty island!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[hearty island]

oh are we not allowed to attach our resumes for review here?

[lapis wind]

not against the rules. But we limit what files you can upload. Cuz viruses etc

[hearty island]

oh i just wanted to upload a pdf of mine for constructive criticism

[near ocean]

best way is a screenshot of the resume

and blur out identifying information

[hearty island]

got it

this is for a business analyst position

[smoky quest]

looks nice!

One nitpick is it may benefit you to add a sense of scale

managing 100Mb dataset is not the same as 100 Pb

I would also call out internships

You mentioned a lot about how you built models for X or Y, but you never go into how and which models.

[haughty sparrow]

Question: is this channel appropriate to ask about how's the job market for newly python learners? I might move to Europe with my wife (she's a European citizen) next year but sadly I just started python around 2 months ago (although I feel more and more confident).
I graduated as an English teacher in Argentina which is... not entirely related to Python. Was just wondering how Europe is as of late for entry level jobs. Sorry in advance if this is not the appropriate place to ask

[smoky quest]

Hi! That's a great place to ask!
However it's past midnight across most of Europe and the EU members are most likely offline. You may want to ask again at a more EU friendly time

[haughty sparrow]

Thats totally fine! I appreciate it. I'm really enjoying my python journey but it makes me a bit uneasy to make such a radical move without too much info haha.

[graceful mason]

any idea where in europe?

[haughty sparrow]

That being said, is remote jobs across countries a thing for developers? or is it more a 'location based' despite being remote?.

She's from Finland but hates it haha. I'd assume I'd have a better chance in Western Europe if I had to guess.

[near ocean]

They're far rarer than other remote opportunities, taxation becomes quite a bit more complicated when where you live and where you work is different

[smoky quest]

Also your lack of experience/degree would make some employer a bit more hesitant

[dense mesa]

Estonia could be worth looking at: language is similar to Finnish but most people in Tallinn will speak English, lots of focus on tech jobs at the moment, and they're looking to help people emigrate

[haughty sparrow]

Ah that's what I expected, that's okay. I was a bit worried about Finland because I did some research and some people say that you need Finnish, others that English is more than enough so I'm... a little confused haha.

@dense mesa The only problem is I don't speak Finnish haha she does. I can do groceries but that's about it. 😦

[dense mesa]

If you're in Tallinn, English will be fine for the most part

[haughty sparrow]

Oh perfect! I'll definitely look that up. I can also speak French so there's that. Some friends are living in Scotland and London but I'm not sure how hard landing a job in those countries would be, since they actually did have an it background.

[dense mesa]

UK could be alright but yeah you'll likely need some experience if a company will sponsor a visa. French could be useful for a few countries?

[haughty sparrow]

Ah I see, my plan was to try to apply for a job (even if it's not exactly Python to start getting into the field) in Argentina, acquire some experience I can show in other country mostly, rather than just leaving with 0 from here.

[raven timber]

Is it realistic to become a "python dev" ?

Say I spend a year devotedly learning about python and become an expert... Is it realistic to land a job?

[buoyant seal]

it depends on background

[raven timber]

So I will not be able to land a job without a degree?

[buoyant seal]

well, so far i hear chances on the level: it will require obesession level of self education maintained for this year + a minor train of luck

[smoky quest]

what's your situation?

[raven timber]

Broke 2nd year College student 19 years old on a third rate country the Philippines

Parents divorced

2 Years for my apartment paid by both my parents

I know nothing about programming but I can confidently say I probably have 30k+ hours of screentime as most of my time is spent in a computer day and night.
Meaning I know how the internet/computer works

[buoyant seal]

while people get degree: even laziest train themselves for at least 4 years(or 6), or kicked in the ass for all those years to learn at least something
+they have advantage of more likely being hired just because of having higher education.
It will be much more difficult to get into it without any background

u need at least some sort of other advantage? being an expert in some domain knowledge or something like that?
well, or a shitton of self education and luck

[raven timber]

I don't believe in luck but I believe in persistence I refuse to believe that if I keep on applying to 5 different companies everyday that I won't get accepted.

I am going to the route of "data analyst"
And I bought a lot of books about python.

After I master this I will learn SQL

[buoyant seal]

sure. persistance breaks mountains 👍

i thought data analyst more higher math oriented job though, if i am not mistaken?

[raven timber]

Yup but I read from somewhere that it requires python knowledge

[buoyant seal]

did u learn already higher math before?

[raven timber]

Python Basics/ Data Science Basics

Basic SQL
RProgramming/ Statistics
Data Visualization and Dashboards

I just realized that I need to master these 4 and both are hegemons of its field, I am fucked but so what? I will do my best, I'll struggle for the next couple of years to be free in the later stages of life

[smoky quest]

are you set on data analyst? Theses are in general more stringent on the education level than webdev

[cyan sequoia]

@smoky quest should one choose what field within 'tech' to go into after learning languages to not limit yourself from the start?

[raven timber]

No, in fact it was my weakness and it was why I decided to take law.

[raven timber]

No are there other options? Something on that level?

[buoyant seal]

ergh. Forgive me for being blant, but i am not mistaken, u doubled amount of difficulty.
U need to convince being good enough programmer (though i think for data analysts it should be pretty low bar, that should be easy to manage)
but u chose path difficult in terms of choosing data analyst path. If i am not mistaken having master or preferably even higher science rank is super highly preffered/obligatory for data analysts.

[smoky quest]

It's a little bit of both.
Deciding the end goal far in advance may be difficult due to how far in the future and the associated unknowns. But at the same time, learning something that will be completely irrelevant to your goal will be useless (besides knowing about it)

[raven timber]

What if I transfer to a course that has "statistics"? Would it be better?

[smoky quest]

CS/tech is very broad!
From technical roles to hybrids (ex: technical sales)

[smoky quest]

if you are in college, why not going for a cs degree?

[raven timber]

I read a reddit post and was really motivated

there was a layout of instructions which is all layed out there which will make it easier for me for example

[inner wren]

Hey @raven timber!

You either uploaded a .txt file or entered a message that was too long. Please use our paste bin instead.

[buoyant seal]

ergh, what do u mean by that? if u mean statistics as just a discipline statistics, then it is just one of dozens stuff a person in higher education learns. It would be just a fraction of necessary learned stuff for data satanist/analyst

[raven timber]

ython Basics/ Data Science Basics

Goal: My goal before was to have at least basic knowledge with programming and skills to do data visualization and data manipulation enough to be hired as a data analyst.

Resources:

Codeacademy: During the pandemic, there were a lot of free courses. The Codeacademy PRO subscription was available for 3 months. I was able to complete the data analyst path/ basic python path. But honestly, the format was not for me. I didn’t learn that well. But still, this is a good resource for beginners because you don’t have to set up anything.

Python Crash Course: Good introductory book on python. It covers all the basics of Python

Automate Boring Stuff With Python: Some would suggest that you start with this. However, this book can be overwhelming if this is your first book. I suggest you start with PCC and then this. Try to finish all the exercises. Just try.

Python Data Science Handbook: This was my first data science book. This covers all basic data science libraries (e.g, Pandas, Numpy, Matplotlib, Sklearn). I was able to finish the book but I didn’t appreciate the machine learning part. Probably because machine learning was not part of my priorities at this time yet. Actually, you can skip this book. The next reference is even better.

Python for Data Analysis: From the creator of pandas himself. Probably the best reference for learning python for data science. It has the same coverage as the reference above but has a more detailed explanation. It also has example data analysis problems towards the end of the book.

Matplotlib playlist: I used this playlist to learn as an introduction to matplotlib for data visualization. Use matplotlib and seaborn documentation when creating visualizations. You won't learn data visualization by reading or following tutorials. Just get some data and do the charts!

[raven timber]

I can't afford it.

I am on a public school right now, and I am a scholar which means all expenses are paid.

I transferred from legal management to financial management.

[smoky quest]

There are no public cs schools?

[raven timber]

Haha, here at the Philippines CS is expensive to learn.

[smoky quest]

I don't know anything about the philippines, except for the food

[buoyant seal]

i heard about philippines being yet another source of outsourced IT power. Probably poor economics too.

[raven timber]

Some data analysts don't know python but I have heard that when you know the program you'll get a MUCH HIGHER HIGHER chance of getting recruited.

[coarse crag]

Yeah i think it's very similar to my country. (Indonesia)

[buoyant seal]

same as my origin country. (russia), at least we have some positive vibes/stereotypes for having a lof of good programmers (and hehe famous even for having good hackers)
Well, currently outsourcing just dies in a country due to financial iron wall though. So outsourcing would be left only for those who ran away from country 🤔

[coarse crag]

Yeah, that's what my country does not have. Indonesia is still relatively new in terms of facing tech advancement. There aren't many good developers here. I don't think it's common to find a neighbor who's really good at computer things here.

[buoyant seal]

my country had a nice history regarding it. due to having poor economy... and smart enough people, we had cracked software for dozens of years. And really well distributed it.
Everyone had free software for everything even if it was proprietary. I think it made some impact on general IT awereness.
getting 10/100 cracked games/movies on CD? xD that was common. That is still common. 🏴‍☠️ so yohoho and a bottle of rum 🍾
To be honest i am used to have pirated software of a better quality than licensed original software.

[coarse crag]

Oooo yeah.. i do think Russians are quite famous for their computer skills. Even a friend of mine who was not in tech, he at least knows about some computer and networking vulnerabilities

Sometimes I wonder if I will have it easier to apply for jobs since not alot of people here are as good as someone from a first world country (in terms of dev skills). But then again, working in a first world country is my end goal anyway. So i gotta catch up on the skills. 🔥

[cyan sequoia]

Thanks

[delicate bane]

my cybersec prof says those types of cracked stuff are more likely to carry malware

[buoyant seal]

Sure. that's why i keep separated operational systems with work stuff and cracked stuff

[coarse crag]

That's interesting, thanks!

[coarse crag]

From the article :
"If you want to practice solving interview problems, the website LeetCode has many different algorithmic coding problems. The easy problems in the array section are about the difficulty you should expect in a programming interview. For any of those problems, you should be able to implement a program that solves the problem and be able to explain its runtime (in terms of big O notation) in <45 minutes."

Is this true? or easy in this case is not the same as the problems with the label "easy" in leetcode?

Maybe, my question is more like, what level of difficulty is present in technical interviews in general?

ah i see. that makes sense. thank you for sharing!

[summer roost]

easy to medium is the range I'd expect for interviews.

[coarse crag]

oooo, thanks!

[coarse crag]

If you were to craft a career path from the start, what would it be?
(please explain the why for every choices you made, and if you'd like to avoid a certain choice, please state the reason why)
(you can go in detail as much as you want)

1. Degree : (No degree, Bachelor in CS, Master in CS, PhD in tech-related field)

2. Field you'd like to jump into : (video game, QA, security, devops, frontend, backend, fullstack, data science, mobile dev, ML, cloud-related system, etc)
   What tech stack you'd like to learn/ have first (it may change over the years but you can mention why you'd like to change from field/tool a to b. For example: you'd like to start off with javascript for frontend dev but you'd like to convert to python for backend later)

3. Type of work : (part-time, full-time, freelance, remote, create a startup)

4. Type of companies you'd like to apply to : (FAANG companies, non-tech companies, medium-sized tech companies, start-ups, etc)

5. How you'd like to get interviews and connections : (networking through social media like twitter or linkedin, apply directly to companies, find or contact a recruiter)

6. Salary range you'd accept for the first job : (30k-50k, 50k-80k, 90k-110k, above 120k) or you can state your own salary range. (in USD)

7. The kind of projects you'd like to work on in the future : (ML, computer graphics, NLP, robotics, etc)

you can reply me anytime, it could be days, i just want to know what you guys think. if you don't think the question has any value, it's fine not to answer. thank you in advance!

[smoky quest]

yeah, medium would be a more realistic target. Do expect some hard sprinkled here and there, but they should mostly be basic DP.

[smoky quest]

How do these questions help you?

Today is a different time comparing to even 5-10 years ago. Some of the things you mentioned that exist today, wouldn't even exist 10 years ago. Similarly, today's starting salaries are greatly different from those 5 years ago.
But the fundamentals remain:

• Aim high and be ambitious. You don't want to regret not having taken an opportunity and wondering what could have become
• If you can aim for a masters, go for it. It holds a lot of value and will open up more doors than a bs. Phd's value depends more on the country but is in general targeting research rather than the industry. Ms and phd do make it much easier to emigrate though
• As in any other industry, lack of degree will most likely means menial and easy jobs while a higher level of education will lead to more interesting and deeper opportunity, which correlates also with lucrative opportunities
• Your first salary will greatly be determined by your country, level of education and field
• Pick a field you enjoy. It won't tie you for your whole career if you have a change of mind and if you can handle it (a degree helps with that too 😉 )

[smoky quest]

Hi and welcome!
However this is not a channel for shitposting

[dapper depot]

@keen hollow what they said ^

[keen hollow]

hmmm

[lucid siren]

Hey all wanted to get some resume feedback

[coarse crag]

Thank you for your answer, it was helpful. I just wanted to know if there are things that i don't know that i need to know. For example, "I'd avoid robotics because the job availability is low in general." Or "I'd try to chase after cloud engineering because it pays good."

I know that it's mostly preference/bias, but even a biased information is still an information that i can try to dig further.

I know nothing that's why i asked. I want to know what i can get into in the future, what is best for me to do, etc. Right now everything looks fun to learn but that's exactly why i feel like i don't have a certain path.

"Aim high and be ambitious". Yeah, I'm doing my best but at the same time, I don't even know yet what is it that I have to aim for.

[coarse crag]

Is it really okay to just go with the flow?

[smoky quest]

• Your skills feel a bit like a laundry list and the misalignment stand out
• Maybe showing a list of skills is not the best to introduce yourself
• With regards to the experience, having a one line about what is the role about may also help
• Your descriptions of the experience feels very much implementor. The more senior the role, the more interested I would be in either more leadership/mentorship/strategy aspects or depth/scope rather than pure IC.

[smoky quest]

That is a bit too open ended for me to provide a comprehensive answer, especially considering you are in a part of the world I am not that familiar with (except the food). For instance if your interest lies in designing chips, there may be zero opportunities in your country if there is no university/college teaching that and there is no such industry.
It will be a lot more efficient if you do some exploration and ask more pointed questions.
Some of the explorations you could do:

• What are the universities/colleges in your country and the diplomas they deliver?
• What are the industrial poles around the universities/colleges?
• You mentioned emigrating. What about your target countries?
• Go to the companies you care about and check out their job listing pages
• Go to websites specific to something that interest you (ex: techcrunch or related for startups) and check out the mentioned companies/topics
• Try some of the possibilities at home. CS is great that most of the tools are available for free and you can try it at home to see how it feels

[smoky quest]

No. Do your research, but stay flexible for surprises or learning along the way

[coarse crag]

• the universities in my country aren't that good. let's say, there are public universities and private universities. the education in public universities are not as good as private universities, but private unis are very costly. so i don't think that i can rely on universities except for the connections they provide.

• i'm thinking of going to US in the future (but i don't even know the standard level of skills to be a developer in the us). at least from my pov, US seems like it's leading the tech industry.

• in here, nepotism is very very common, that's why i do think it might be easier to apply for private/international companies than other companies, especially government institutions. you can say in here it's like "jobs and information are scarce, it's better not to share good information". that's why it's so hard to even find an indonesian salary range in here. i looked up on "AWS jobs salary in indonesia" and nothing good shows up. i only got one information which is "about few figures".

if my goal is US, what do you recommend me to do?

[coarse crag]

i see

[smoky quest]

• Study in the USA
• Do internships in the USA
• Get hired by a company in the USA
• Work abroad for a USA company and then have them look into a L1

[coarse crag]

ahh i see, i think the last option might be the better one

[smoky quest]

fyi, I put them in descending order from my pov

[coarse crag]

oh?

hmmm i'll try to look for more information, i probably need a scholarship if i want to study in us

if getting an information from indonesian people was easy, i wouldn't have asked here 🤣

[coarse crag]

https://www.quora.com/What-does-it-take-to-migrate-to-Indonesia/answer/Rizki-Adiputra?ch=10&oid=158826264&share=269d36a9&srid=hTxfLf&target_type=answer
this is a good answer that describes the situation in indonesia (if anyone is interested)

https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/improving-education-quality-indonesia-no-easy-task

[cursive silo]

Hi 👋 guys

Can any body suggest me that which framework should l learn REACT or ANGULAR?? I am very cofused in choosing one!!

[buoyant seal]

React is more popular wide. Safe options to find a job due to large pool of vacancies. Messy ecosystem of multiple choices.
Angular should be having less confusing, stable Google ecosystem. And safer in code growth and stability due to work in typescript only. U a locked into Google ecosystem / vision how things should be done only. Higher entry bar in skill.

Angular is 3 times less having pool of developers and jobs than React.

[livid shell]

I've done DSA, what are the opportunities in brief

?

[near ocean]

opportunities in what industry, with what tech, which country, etc
you have to be more specific

[gritty rivet]

Do you mean that it's hard to find developers online from Indonesia to ask career questions? If so, I would try LinkedIn

[near remnant]

I started reading "Fluent Python", it is really great, can recommend it to anyone.

Hope I can finish reading the 800 pages soon

[coarse crag]

is it normal to ask people on linkedin? i mean, i would try that, but in general it's just hard to get a good answer from indonesian people. maybe developers are better and more willing to share actually (but there aren't many developers whose skill is advanced and are willing to share, i would say that's because of our education system and maybe the inability to speak more advanced english prevented them from keeping up with international standard for their skills). things such as salary range, company culture, how to get connections and how to get a job... it's not common to share valuable information about those (unless you're really close with someone from that company and they are willing to share with you). because alot of people are afraid to lose their job if they share these information.

[gritty rivet]

I see... I'm sure you're right that the professional culture is different there to at least some degree. But I do see people from there on LinkedIn, and in general I do find that if you take an interest in someone's career path and seek their advice many people are willing to share information

[coarse crag]

I see, i'll try to ask around, thanks!! 🙏

[ancient onyx]

oi

[coarse crag]

Hi, welcome! do you want to ask a question?

You can just ask it and someone will respond to you later

you can ask that question in #python-discussion or you can open a help channel

[void linden]

So you want a list of dictionaries.

[ancient onyx]

oh

i press the wrong channel...sorry guys

[coarse crag]

good luck!

[ancient onyx]

ty

[crystal void]

Hey guys, I wanna ask,
I like coding (python mainly)

I like Electronics (Robot Building)

I like AI

So, which career option would work out for me? (Just estimated suggestions)

Currently I'm in school, so I can't have degrees and all, but for, say after 10 years, what option would be solid for both, Fun and Money?

[graceful mason]

All of those will be valid careers in 10 years
If you want to look into robotics you will need to use languages other than python - python may not be used at all (other than tooling/mule scripts etc)

[nimble jackal]

Are front end developers typically responsible for creating the initial design of the UI, or is a graphic designer hired to draw it out, and the front end developer would code this in HTML / CSS and their chosen framework?

[buoyant seal]

the second
even in super minor micro teams, graphic designers is usually present. UI design / psychology to do it, all of it is a really spearate skill
frontend dev needs to know it only at basic level in order to understand stuff better to suggest stuff better during its creation

In super small (team out of 1 person)... alone frontend freelancer team, then can be the same person

[nimble jackal]

Ahh, understood

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. Knowing UI design for frontend dev is like for backend dev to know frontend. More or less equally same. Needed to be learned in order to architect solution better, but not requried.

[near remnant]

Just started this book, its extremely good : https://www.amazon.com/Python-Essential-Reference-David-Beazley/dp/0672329786

I feel like I learn a lot of theory by learning from books. I know some people find it boring but for me it works well.

[sudden gyro]

is being a dev a good option?

[gritty rivet]

If you like the work, it is. If you don't, I hear it's miserable! So try it and see how you feel. There will be a lot of job opportunities for the foreseeable future, if that's what you're asking

[graceful mason]

It's also usually developed over discussions between designers/stakeholders/sometimes engineers etc

[sudden gyro]

I am 16 year old IT student and I can spend 3-4 hours sitting on my butt figuring out logical problems and 80% of the time failing to

[vapid jay]

same lol

[gritty rivet]

That's a fine start. Keep at it and you'll do well. Start thinking about where you want to go for university

[vapid jay]

So what's up with blockchain developers lately?

Like I see these "blockchain dev courses" on every youtube ad n stuff

[nimble jackal]

Now that you bring that up, what sort of metrics / other data would you use to choose your university to apply to?

[gritty rivet]

It's trendy because there's a lot of money there right now. Explore it if you're interested, or just ignore it if you're not

[vapid jay]

Well do you guys think it'll be trendy in the future? Maybe like, within 10 years from now?

I just need opinions ;-;

[gritty rivet]

I hope not but maybe 😫

[vapid jay]

Cuz the whole field's huge and I figured web development isn't enough

[steep osprey]

web dev probably will be taken over in the future by AI

[vapid jay]

e

[gritty rivet]

You need web skills anyway even in the crypto space, so it's probably a better place to focus

All technologies are going obsolete all the time, don't worry about it too much as long as you keep learning

[vapid jay]

Noted, mate

[steep osprey]

true, new types of jobs will keep popping up

[coarse crag]

i thought blockchain is popular because of web decentralization (web3)

it seems people have been trying to build "decentralized apps" cause of personal data being owned by large companies issues kinda thing

but i'm not sure if blockchain is worth learning for now, other types of technologies seems more promising as blockchain is relatively new

it's funny that we haven't even implemented web3 (only few people did) but some people have started building web4 and web5..

[near ocean]

if you want a super stressful shaky high paying job then sure, learn solidity and rust and go into crypto and NFTs

[lucid siren]

Sorry could you expand ‘pure IC’

[lucid siren]

I’m also trying to display my inner developer role, not sure where im going wrong

[vapid jay]

What are top languages/framworks to land a non webdev/embedded positions?

Anything else useful counts

[smoky quest]

IC = Individual Contributor
It gave me the impression (that's just an impression when reading the resume, I could be wrong), that these were just tasks. This is in opposition to the more strategic level of solving specific problems and then having these tasks as implementation details (still important)

[smoky quest]

Not sure to follow there.
Maybe you could expand on what you want to do next?

[smoky quest]

You may want to look at the latest stackoverflow survey they published recently

[smoky quest]

Web1.0 is already decentralized :p

[coarse crag]

oh damn yeah lmao, then why did they call "web3" as decentralized?

maybe it's just for the hype?

[smoky quest]

"marketing" and it sounds cool.
They are also cannibalizing the original meaning of web3 which was about the semantic web and was a lot more interesting

[coarse crag]

ah i see yeah that makes sense

i mean, i can understand all the hype but i don't think web can truly be decentralized (as in money exchange stuff) until people stopped thinking about getting more money. we need another linus torvalds for this lmao

i have a friend who put his money in ethereum, he told me he was so worried cause ethereum was going down (he had been watching over it for days). i told him that if he has money it's better to invest in real companies with real building and real stock option. but then he confidently told me "you don't understand. blockchain and crypto is the future." 🤣

he wasn't in tech btw. he's doing video graphics and editing.

[coral lintel]

Hey I wanna ask something related to c++ can I?

[smoky quest]

Only if it is related to #career-advice , otherwise #❓｜how-to-get-help would be more appropriate

[smoky quest]

At this stage it's just speculation and VCs pushing money

[coarse crag]

yeah it seems so

[coral lintel]

Well I got some errors while using c++ terminals...and I can't figure out where I went wrong so...where should I ask for this?

[near ocean]

!ot

[inner wren]

Off-topic channel: #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[coarse crag]

probably in a c++ server?

[honest pivot]

This is a Python discord

[coral lintel]

Well...I'm too lazy to look for that

So trying to find someone who can clear my doubt in the server I already joined in

[smoky quest]

Please take it elsewhere

[coral lintel]

Ah ok

[vapid jay]

should you become a fullstack, front end or back Developer

front end Looks some what easier

[smoky quest]

Are you saying you are optimizing your career for what is easier above every other factors?

[vapid jay]

what other Factors could there be?

I suppose there the question of who hiring and Money and also being able to work from home

[smoky quest]

Having something interesting, growth opportunities, responsibilities, impact, compensation, people you work with, etc.

Note also that in general,if something is easy, there are more people able to do it, which in turns means there are less reasons to pay a lot for it. So the easier the work, the lower the pay

[vapid jay]

actully

[vapid jay]

what did you mean by impact

[smoky quest]

saving lives, the world, helping with X

[vapid jay]

eh I don't really have morally respectful high end goals

anyway one more question

@smoky quest out of 3 listed which one would prove the most Difficult

[smoky quest]

backend

[vapid jay]

alright then that's the goal

The 3 T's

it won't be a matter of money tho It will be a matter of people ill work with

@smoky quest Well thank you I'll report back to you in a few years with my results

[random pagoda]

Hi, I have experience in developing applications with pyqt5, kivy, Tkinter and python. I love doing this and can I get a remote job related to this work or python is just used for web development in professional settings i.e Django, flask?

[delicate bane]

in another weird situation again, sigh

its honestly frustrating at this point

why are some companies so bureaucratic sometimes

[fierce oracle]

I took a fundamentals course for Python, and I've been working on "easy" projects on leetcode. I've also watched a lot of videos and read various guides. I'm still a beginner, but I want to make sure I am progressing toward my eventual goal of machine learning and artificial intelligence. I just tried the data structures and algorithms class by Google and absolutely hated it. I'm considering trying another data structures and algorithms course, but I'm not sure where to go from here.

When should I start taking courses on machine learning and artificial intelligence? Such as this one: https://www.coursera.org/learn/machine-learning ? What do I need to be able to do before that is the correct move? I feel like my skills are somewhat stagnating just watching random intermediate python videos on YouTube right now.

[gritty rivet]

I'll gladly take bureaucracy over the most common alternative: bad managers free to arbitrarily do whatever they want

[gritty rivet]

Sounds like the usual 'tutotrial hell'... Too much watching and not enough doing? So just build stuff. Don't wait to feel ready, start a project that really interests you and see how far you get. If you're completely stuck on something, find a smaller and simpler but related project to get you there

If you're looking for more specific ideas, try #data-science-and-ml

[delicate bane]

yeah true. for me its just HR bureaucracy

they said they would create the full-time position for and "hope that i will apply" but like

[ivory sluice]

@static plaza your message has been deleted bc we don't allow recruiting or offering paid work. please reread our #rules which you accepted upon joining

[delicate bane]

its been a month already and they said its still getting approved, which i guess is normal

[static plaza]

Oh sorry, got any suggestion of a place to seek a python freelancer tho?

[delicate bane]

the twist in this though is the original person who said they wanted to hire me is leaving in 5 weeks

[ivory sluice]

i think maybe fiverr or similar services

[delicate bane]

so...yeah

[static plaza]

Thanks:)

[delicate bane]

context: this is the same company ive been interning with so far

[gritty rivet]

Oof, I hope it works out for you but it sounds like a good time to be applying for other opportunities in case it doesn't :|

Sounds like it will, it just sucks to be waiting for confirmation

[vapid jay]

The cpp server is full of ||nazis|| tho

[delicate bane]

yeah im just more of a pessimist than an optimist so ill be royally pissed if it doesnt work out. also ive been busting my butt to try and get aws working with my model so i hope i get hired FT...otherwise...i will cri

[ivory sluice]

@sonic slate your message has been deleted bc we don't allow recruiting or offering paid work. please reread our rules which you accepted upon joining
was that a job listing you were advertising?

[dense mesa]

What?

[true harness]

is that an ad lol

[ivory sluice]

@wintry tendon your message has been deleted bc we don't allow self-promotional content. please reread our #rules which you accepted upon joining

[orchid brook]

@leaden jasper

[inner wren]

Hey @orchid brook!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[orchid brook]

this is the other one

[leaden jasper]

So! under education, I could put a line that's like:
Awards and Commendations: Full Tuition Scholarship type of language as well as any other awards and things you might receive

[orchid brook]

hmmm okay

[leaden jasper]

let me see if I can show you a snippet from my own resume

[orchid brook]

thanks

[orchid brook]

i like this because here it separates projects, extra curriculars and experience

because now my ecas, exp and semester long semi professional projects are kinda together

extra curriculars are like officer or leadership roles

and semester or year long projects are making software or engineering solutions/products for the community, sponsored by big companies

[orchid brook]

this is part of the university and we have like weekly meetings design review etc

and full professional exp is just one summer internship

[orchid brook]

and maybe on the top right instead of us citizen i can have my linkedin link? so like website link then linkedin link?

[leaden jasper]

For instance, this is a redacted version of what I have for my Undergrad, you can see at the bottom I put "Scholarship Recipient"

[orchid brook]

should i do major and overall gpa

[leaden jasper]

Depends, is over overall above 3.5?

[orchid brook]

almost, 3.4 but should bump up

got fucked in sociology for missing hw

[leaden jasper]

mmmm 3.4 is close enough that I would put it down

[orchid brook]

but major is 4.0, although im only a freshman so they might expect better for overall

[leaden jasper]

overall, I like the layout/sections of this one. I would remove the "US Citizen" part personally.

I'm not really a fan of bullet points as major levels, but that's a personal choice.

"Involvement" I would probably change to "Leadership & Activities".

[orchid brook]

right

[orchid brook]

i was thinking about this? but does it look good to have info on the header like left and right side of the name

[lucid siren]

id like to get into backend dev, i thoroughly enjoyed using retool and getting the connections working with what users can do!

[smoky quest]

That's great!
But note that your resume isn't geared towards that, as is. It would be fine for an IT position but wouldn't get much calls back for a backend dev position

[lucid siren]

trying to get out of general IT 😅

[smoky quest]

any opportunity for writing some code at your current job?

[gritty rivet]

I recently made the transition from help desk to backend dev, you got this!

For dev jobs I think your resume could be a lot more succinct about your previous experience, but add a "projects" section to illustrate your coding skills more concretely

[vale orbit]

Hi. Is there any job for people with basic knowledge of python? I've been learning for like 7 months or so, I've learned up to File Handling and Modules
and I miss knowledge of Matplotlib, and Machine and MySQL , MongoDB
if there is a job can someone guide me how can I find ? Thanks 🙂

[dense mesa]

Look for entry level jobs and apply, something like LinkedIn or Indeed will have listings

[gritty rivet]

Yes there are some entry-level jobs where basic Python proficiency is a central part of the required skillset, without requiring other more advanced skills, but they are not always easy to find. It's mainly a matter of searching lots of listings and networking with people who might have leads.

[vale orbit]

Thank you for your help, do you have any further information about how much is usually the payout for these entry level jobs? I know it kinda depends on the time and employer but just want to know an avg $/hr

[gritty rivet]

In the US? 60k/year would be a reasonable minimum I guess? it depends on other skills and experience you have

obviously higher in a high COL area

[vale orbit]

Thanks for your help friend.

[true harness]

for software engineering in the US 60k is relatively very low, like bottom 10%

[vale orbit]

I'm not in US I just want to do it remote, also is knowing the basic stuff about python that I mentioned in above messages enough to sign for software engineering positions?

[true harness]

maybe, check the requirements of positions you want. if you meet most of them, you're probably good for that job

[dense mesa]

The competition for entry level is gonna be a lot higher, so make sure you have something that immediately stands out (in a good way) on your CV. Also, you'll very likely have to be in the US to do a remote role for the US. Working across countries is difficult

[lucid siren]

Thank you for sharing!
This helps a lot to know, if you can make the transition, then so can I!

[gritty rivet]

I'll mention that I did the Nucamp Backend bootcamp and it was a critical step for me. If you're disciplined enough you might not need it, but for me it helped to have some formal structure and support.

[silk yoke]

Whats up w all these dev jobs requiring cs degrees

[true harness]

they give credibility to the candidate

[delicate bane]

not every job requires it but they are usually looking for something else to make up for that

[drowsy timber]

are edx certs worth paying for?

[gritty rivet]

Nah, AWS and Azure certs for DevOps in the cloud seem to have some value if you're going to do that type of work, but in general certs don't seem to mean much at all when it comes to traditional SWE roles

[drowsy timber]

thanks for the answer. I will save my money

[lucid siren]

What fundamentals/techniques should I display in my projects?

[gritty rivet]

Whatever is most relevant to the jobs you are aiming for.

The most significant project in my portfolio personally was a RESTful API that did CRUD operations to and from a Postgres database. I included docker files, documentation, etc.

But again, it's all about matching the skills you have to job openings that you're interested in

[tidal gazelle]

Does an online portfolio help when looking for jobs?

[upper brook]

Hi, Im a 2nd semester CSE student and i just wasted half of my College Life doing nothing. I was just studying bare minimum for passing the exam and now i realise, i learned nothing at all. But i want to start over. I know the basic of coding (but not good in one specific language). My upcoming semester will focus on networking and iot. so What can i do right now while focusing on my main course too?

[smoky quest]

It comes down to learning what you have missed and catching up. So:

• Review the topics
• Practice with some projects

[stoic timber]

Python can be combined with networking, but mostly when you're already very skilled at it (automating routing and switching etc.). IoT with Python is probably easier to get started with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdgxJUvLgs0&list=PLkWRCY_kK0GgKVA9dywDfoBynRWeCZxyR

[tidal gazelle]

Anyone?

[stoic timber]

sure, it's good to show what you can do

[tidal gazelle]

I mean, is a digital portfolio better than a handwritten one?

[stoic timber]

definitely
handwritten one can get lost over the mail, in-person interviews are not so common anymore, especially the first rounds are online now (at least where I live, NL)

[tidal gazelle]

Also, is there anything an O-level student can do to add to their portfolio in the future?

[stoic timber]

what is O-level exactly where you study ? I know it from UK, but I think they also have it in African countries

[tidal gazelle]

Year 11

[stoic timber]

I mean more like primary school, high school, university ?

[tidal gazelle]

High school

[stoic timber]

I wouldn't feel limited, you already learned basic math and language at this point, just add things to your portfolio that you want to add. What are your hobbies/passions ?

[smoky quest]

forget about the portfolio at this stage. Your skills now will be nothing in comparison to your skills in 5 years when you enter the market, and that will make your portfolio from today irrelevant because you will have much better things to show off
I would recommend to:

• Make sure you have the grades to get into a college/university so that you can get a CS degree
• Have fun and build things. Explore the world of CS and make websites, robots, games, backends, frontends, mobile apps, iot stuff, etc.

[tidal gazelle]

Well I want to become a python developer

And quite regrettably I didn't take CS for O-levels, though I hope this isn't too bad. I can try to do it for A-levels

[smoky quest]

I would recommend to look into the education system of your country, but in general, high school hardly limit your ability to get into a college/university for a CS degree like a license or a bachelor

(and obviously, you would know more about that than me but it doesn't hurt to double check)

[tidal gazelle]

Is the CS degree crucial to becoming a python developer/software engineer?

[smoky quest]

Different levels of educations lead to different outcomes.
For instance a nurse would study less than a doctor and while they would still be helping saving lives, they would not do the jobs of doctors. Similarly, you would be able to find a job without a degree, but that would make you unavailable to some very interesting and technical jobs which do require a higher level of expertise. It would also make you less appealing than other candidates and you would have to work even harder to compensate for it. And note also that employers will definitely look into paying you less just because you aren't as educated

In third world countries where the education system is non-existent, that may matter less, but it does matter in first/second world countries

[tidal gazelle]

hmm okay yeah thanks for the info

[tidal gazelle]

quick question: Is it worth purchasing a custom domain for the site if you make one, or just use the file path as domain name?

[stoic timber]

free domain would be fine for now
if it's just the filepath noone else can see it (it will be local instead of online)

[sturdy shore]

Suggestions for CS-Related career that involved a lot human interaction & less coding

I'm now in the final year of my CS Degree. I can tell that I can't sit in front of laptop coding all day. not even an hour. Very depressed.
I love to talk with people and mingle around. But I don't want to waste my CS Degree. 🤗 \

[tidal gazelle]

Is the CS degree relatively difficult?

[stoic timber]

data analysis, you can give presentations about things that matter to the business. To find out which (and how to present for the audience) you have to talk with the employees alot

[broken sedge]

the exact opposite of me and probably most other programmers lol

[true harness]

a custom domain is just so cheap (many are like 5-30 dollars/yr), you might as well

[true harness]

teaching, maybe

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384> straight up mods ping because it takes so much of my screen and thats making me angry

[misty idol]

Please don't use our server to post unapproved advertising.

[pastel thunder]

can't we just sell the part of compensation given in stocks?
If yes, why do people talk so much about how the real salary isnt what is mentioned and it actually include stocks

[gilded valley]

Made extra offensive just by the fact it was such a dumb name

[rich kelp]

guys having difficulty in understanding leet code questions ,i do know the basics of python but not able to solve easy questions as well ,any suggestions guy

[true harness]

not any more difficult than any other stem degree

[gritty rivet]

If you're stuck on a specific question: #❓｜how-to-get-help

Get through a few and it will get easier with practice :)

[gritty rivet]

I've also seen it recommended to start off by just studying the answers, which you can find online. Then once you have seen the patterns, then practice actually solving them in your own.

[rich kelp]

thank you sir will definitely do that thank you for your reply

[true harness]

yes, you can just sell them. because the total compensation is different from salary, when you add stocks

[vapid jay]

Is working with anvil good for web experience?

[pastel thunder]

So, that means people saying "faang arent impressive enough because employee's monthly salary isnt CTC/12" are just wrong?

[true harness]

you can't really say someone's opinion is wrong, maybe misguided, though

[pastel thunder]

hmm

[gritty rivet]

I'm not sure I understand what this question is meant to ask, but I don't think Anvil is nearly as widely used in production as Django or Flask if that's relevant.

[orchid brook]

guys

can anyone suggest which way should I go

Grad school or industry

like does faang look better than an ivy league tier university

Do internships help in grad school prep or does research experience help in the industry?

Which helps more or is more flexible? Like if I have some internship exp but mainly research exp id be ready gor grad school, but would i still be useful to the industry? Compared to if i only do internships and get involved with competitive programming leetcode geind competitions etc would i be ready for grad school?

[near ocean]

This makes it sound like you can freely pick between the two. Can you easily get into a FAANG or an ivy league school?

[orchid brook]

Not easily but I know it’s not impossible

uni is top 10 in the us for my major

Like id dedicate my soul to that purpose

But i dont know which one i should dedicate it to, or if I dedicate it to grad school and end up wanting to switch to industry would that undergrad profile help….or vice versa

[near ocean]

is there a reason you'd pick grad school over work?

[smoky quest]

what do you mean by grad school? Like a ms?

[orchid brook]

yeah

Or phd idk but ms is the first step

[orchid brook]

because I can always get into the industry after grad school? Ultimately my goal is to be in the industry instead of academia, but grad school will add a layer of qualification right?

[near ocean]

not really, just sounds like youre getting into more and more debt for diminishing returns tbh
if you can get into the industry I would do so as soon as possible, youre losing on many years of experience by doing a masters and/or phd

[true harness]

you should only do a PhD if you really really want to do the research, not if it's just something extra for your resume

[vapid jay]

phds cant write code for shit

on par with highschool programmers

[near ocean]

I don't think thats accurate for CS phds

[random pagoda]

Disagree about the comment that CS degrees don't matter in a third-world country. While the education standard is satisfactory or just okay. But our country (Pak for example) is obsessed with the idea of having a CS-related degree for a developer job or anything even remotely related to a CS degree. I have a year of experience in application development using Python with experience in using C++, Java, and Assembly but I get rejected by my own people in remote jobs (I have a BBA degree). The only people who work with me are from the USA, Greece, UK, and South Africa mainly. In Pak, CS grads even become bankers lolz and commerce guys have additional competition with CS grads who want to become bankers even Pakistani banks prefer CS grads over commerce grads to train and stuff with an MBA degree. (What a mess)

[vapid jay]

why would you train in commerce when there is cs

[smoky quest]

The point was not to make an absolute truth across every single country but more that it is less clear as the path is less well defined. It becomes very much country dependent

[random pagoda]

Agreed, I think a person without a CS degree will have better luck in finding an opportunity in a first-world country than in a third-world country. But having a degree in a CS-related field is very very very helpful.

[random pagoda]

Due to having fewer marks, I had to go to the BBA but now I desperately want to shift my career since I love writing code every day.

[coarse crag]

that is similar to my country. my sis is studying civil engineering, but her seniors said that some of them would rather work in banking (somehow banks prefer engineering grads for their higher level positions, so the accounting grads ended up working like help-desk or sales job etc, but not all tho)

[random pagoda]

Pretty sad for commerce grads, can I ask which country you are from? also in third world countries there is no way to shift your domain from commerce or business to CS (No Conversion courses are offered here in Pak as far as I know)

[coarse crag]

Agree, it's hard to shift domain, but at least in my country it's still possible. I'm from Indonesia btw

[vapid jay]

try going for smaller fish

they might hire you, i like data science for example and maybe someone in business would have a good time working with data/money etc

[random pagoda]

Good luck to you my friend then, I have to go somewhere else If I want to change my career.

Already doing low-pay coding jobs friend

[coarse crag]

Oh i see. that's a very unfortunate situation. From someone who's also in a third world country, i wish you luck! Cheers!

[random pagoda]

Yes, I just want to gather enough funds to get myself out. It will take time but it isn't impossible.

[coarse crag]

Yeah. You sound persistent and hard-working. I hope you will reach your goal! 🫂

[raw marsh]

I'm new to this server. I'd like to know if it's possible to learn web development in one month. Another question is, what is one programming language that I can learn in one month and make money right away?

[peak halo]

programming isn't a get-rich-quick scheme. you can learn the basics of web development in a month, but you probably wouldn't be employment-ready for a while longer.

[raw marsh]

For how long will I be able to be employed?

[fair flower]

Is anyone here working as full time python developer ?

[peak halo]

yes, but ask your question, not for an answerer

[fair flower]

On which framework or tool you are using in development?

[peak halo]

for what kind of development? I'm an AI developer, so my tech stack is going to look very different from a web developer.

[fair flower]

If you stay consistent 5-6 months are good enough to get started

[fair flower]

Ohh I am backend + Aws developer

[raw marsh]

@fair flower By the way, I have around 10 hours per day to invest in education.

[coarse crag]

yeah, but it's only "getting started". for most people it takes them years to have decent skills

[fair flower]

Make sure you do proper hands on

[fair flower]

How long you have been working as developer?

[raw marsh]

I don't understand.

[coarse crag]

i just started learning. but i know that i probably can't do it in 6 months

there are just so many things to learn i guess

[fair flower]

Just focus on one thing at a time. Otherwise it gonna be a super mess

[raw marsh]

What it means: proper hands-on

[coarse crag]

yeah, completely agree with that. i have been having a hard time with that as the field is very diverse.

[fair flower]

I mean do some practical rather than just doing theory

[coarse crag]

as in you do alot of coding, not just following up on tutorials and theories

[fair flower]

Where you from?

[coarse crag]

country? indonesia, you?

[raw marsh]

Thank you

[fair flower]

India

[coarse crag]

ooo i see 👍

[fair flower]

Good luck

[raw marsh]

I'm from Italy.

[fair flower]

Great

[raw marsh]

There are a lot of smart programmers from India.

[coarse crag]

i agree

[fair flower]

Ohh

Anyone can become

Its not a big deal

Just keep practicing

[raw marsh]

So, over the last three years, I've started a lot of businesses and failed a lot of them, and I was so depressed that I wanted to like my... you know what, and now I've decided to start learning a skill so that I can get a job. I live with my parents and I don't have a job, so I'm ashamed to tell you that I'm 24 years old.

That's the reason why I'm learning programming.

[coarse crag]

i see. the tech industry is pretty good. and i don't think you should be ashamed. 24 is still young. you've got lots of time to learn and build your life. you just need to learn alot of things and be persistent. good luck!

[fair flower]

Bruh. Its never late to learn anything. Coding is full of opportunities. Make sure you don't quit. Don't run behind result just give your 100% whatever you are doing. Atleast you are trying rather than just sitting

[raw marsh]

I appreciate your messages. @fair flower @coarse crag

[fair flower]

Anytime. I have to sleep guys. Good night. Good luck

[raw marsh]

Good Night

[cyan sequoia]

For those of you that know multiple languages is python bettter to start with or Java

[forest seal]

it doesn't matter that much. java has more boilerplate-esque coding. both of them are very popular, I would say python > java for intuitiveness but you'll probably end up learning parts of both anyways if you end up getting a job

[smoky quest]

It depends mostly on the one that your friends use and can go ask questions to. They are both used for learning.

[near ocean]

Not really a career question, start with python because why not? 🤷 This is a python server

[peak halo]

in my opinion, the advantage that Java has over Python pedagogically is static typing, because I think it's better to become type-aware sooner than later.

Beyond that, I think Java is an absolutely terrible first language. If you write a beginner hello world program, almost none of the code on the screen makes any sense to a beginner (public static void main string args? system out?), and even if we take for granted that there are benefits to Java's approach to OOP, none of them are obvious or relevant to beginners.

[cyan sequoia]

Ah

But for jobs Is Java more valuable to employers?

[near ocean]

That depends entirely on your local market
For example where I live C# seems to be king

[peak halo]

a lot of enterprise software is written in Java, which means that even if a new project is never written in Java ever again, there will still be tons of Java code bases to maintain for the rest of our lives.

but there are domains where Java just isn't used. I work in AI, and we all use Python for everything.

[near ocean]

Python is more versatile currently, you could go from full on web apps to AI to simple scripts for office automation, the only place i see java in is backend with spring really

[delicate bane]

much of our enterprise stuff is written in C#

only the newer stuff is python + react.js

[rose charm]

the university i want to attend offers electrical and computer engineering and im kinda confused because i wanted to do computer engineering alone but i have no problem with electrical part but the problem is would i still be able to do stuff like software, creating apps and programming?

or would i have to do a software engineering degree too? would i still be able to get a job in software with a electrical and computer engineering degree?

[gritty rivet]

If you really want to know, look on LinkedIn. This is the best way to identify how rare or common a specific career path is and seek advice from people who maybe have done what you're trying to do... Maybe even the same university ideally

[gritty rivet]

More generally I would say that if the university doesn't have a program that fits what you want to do, you may want to pick another university

[rose charm]

there isnt much university options in my country and i dont plan on going to another country. i read more about electrical engineering and it sounds cool so i dont have a problem with the degree.

[gritty rivet]

And you seem to be saying you want to do software engineering and that's the closest thing available? I don't know about the job market in your country but I expect it's possible if you develop the skills you need in other ways. Assuming people use LinkedIn in your country,.I do think that's where you'll get the clearest picture

[rose charm]

im not really looking at the job market in linkedin cause my dad said im too young to be stressing over lol im just deciding what to do in university

i just hope if i decide to do something likek cybersecurity or software stuff the ECE degree and whatever experience i get would be enough to get a job

[dense mesa]

ECE won't have a lot of app developing and high level programming

[rose charm]

can i learn that on my own?

@dense mesa ?

[dense mesa]

Yes

[rose charm]

ok thanks

and thanks @gritty rivet

[dense mesa]

I was busy earlier so couldn't give a detailed response, as long as you do a decent internship you should have a good shot at anything relevant

[tulip pine]

What is the most employable python variant

[true harness]

wdym "variant"

[tulip pine]

Like data structures , software designing , idk

you can go a lot of different ways with python right?

[true harness]

so like, data science, web dev, stuff like that?

[buoyant seal]

Python web developer
Data Scientist / Machine Learning guy
Data Engineer
DevOps engineer
Did i miss something? In theory python can be used in embedded development. On practice I am not sure how often is it useful there.

[worn geyser]

good ol foolin around

[delicate bane]

i think its also used sometimes for scripting in some IT roles like SRE, sys admin, network engineer, cybersec, etc.

but bash scripting is probs more common

[peak halo]

I would expect powershell to be more commonly used for that

[vapid jay]

You got this bro 💪

[smoky quest]

it depends on the environment. Powershell is very microsoft specific

[delicate bane]

also this

[buoyant seal]

Kind of it is all about that DevOps engineer
https://youtu.be/7PCkvCPvDXk

SRE is kind of sub specialization of DevOps engineer, meant to provide maintainance thorough automating manual toil
Sys admin is deprecated
specialization leading to become DevOps engineer
Network engineer... Well... Still DevOps engineer responsibilities to do it in infrastructure as a code way
Cyber security... Did I mention DevSecOps specialization that is same but automated as a infra/pipeline code during continuous deployment?

[delicate bane]

we are really overloading the term devops, huh?

[buoyant seal]

Feel free to add Pipeline engineer and Cloud engineer to same pile.
In micro company it is all DevOps engineer responsibilities. Subspecializations appear only in big enough teams/companies.

[vapid jay]

hi, is this career discussion only for python devs?

[delicate bane]

and platform engineers

[smoky quest]

DevSecOps*

[vapid jay]

Hello, I need some advice regarding working online
I know Web Dev is demanded a lot, but i'm not really into it
is there any other thing that you can advice me to focus on ?

[buoyant seal]

Desktop Dev (windows, macOS flavours)
Mobile Dev (Android, iOS flavours)
Data Satanist? (Extended into machine learning)
Linux C/C++/Rust stuff? (I wonder how this one is named)
Crypto solidity/rust stuff?

[vapid jay]

Thank you, i will explore these

[buoyant seal]

u a welcome. For desktop dev (in windows at least), we can consider C++, C# stuff (probably few other languages will work as well. I saw even in golang stuff). Technically Java works too.(Hey minecraft was made in Java, Jetbrains IDEs too)
MacOS/IOS i think is Swift
Android means Java/Kotlin
Data Satanist is Python

Java looks like a safe bet, working for mobile dev, and should be acceptable for desktop dev as well 🤔 And at same time Java hehe, is still not too late to switch back to web dev.

Java is best to make further specialization as mobile Android dev

C# is technically multi-target-platform language too. Desktop + Web. A bit too attached to Microsoft and first world economy though

[vapid jay]

Alright, thank you so much

Anything but front end and php lol

[paper chasm]

does anyone know a good website i can make my resume on for free?
Im shifting jobs and my current resume is the one i made 2 years ago right outta college.
its in dire need of an update

[near ocean]

i made one in MS Word, my girlfriend uses overleaf, but thats latex you might have to learn a bit
not that it wont be useful but it's more hassle than plain Word

[buoyant seal]

Was it generated by neural networks?

[near ocean]

yes in fact

The OG neural network, my thonker

[wind hinge]

Hey guys, ehat knowledge would be mandatory for junior python web dev, what should i learn, on ehat should i focus, i need this so i can build my own first project with those skills combined

[vapid jay]

Full stack python

[wind hinge]

Can you ss requirements for that position please

[gritty rivet]

No recruiting here, check the #rules

[vapid jay]

Nooo I wasn’t recruiting @gritty rivet

I was making fun of the full stack python dev 😂

[near ocean]

what about it

full stack python means a backend framework + templating engine, its mostly python
you could put up web apps with minimal JS/CSS

[gritty rivet]

A common first project is a Restful API that can do CRUD to a DB like Postgres. You could use FastAPI or Flask.

It's hard to say what's "mandatory"... Study the job market wherever you are, start applying as soon as you have a couple of projects (don't wait until you're "ready") and you'll get a feel for what you really need to learn

Check out the Backend and Python routes here, but that's an overall guide and not the minimum you need to find a job: https://roadmap.sh

[near ocean]

Blog is a good first project, you could stick with a simple CRUD app or go even further with logins, comments, auth, validation, etc

[wind hinge]

I have made crud app its not like a lot i tried to focus on backend more

So it has login sys, make update delete, stick posts...

And its hosted on heroku, that was my graduation project from highschool

As well with comments and like option

[gritty rivet]

If you're just out of high school and you're trying to be a software engineer, I would encourage you to focus on getting a degree

That said, you could try applying for jobs and see if anyone will give you a chance. If not you'll hopefully get a clearer sense of what skills you need to demonstrate in your next project to have a better shot

[gritty rivet]

Also you probably want to do something with another cloud provider. This might be a good way to go: https://cloudresumechallenge.dev/

[vernal nebula]

I've got an interview coming up where SQL will be on the interview questions / technical test.

I'm used to using mongoDB and python stuff like numpy/pandas etc., is there a good place to learn SQL given that I'm basically just trying to learn syntax and already have a solid base in non-relational databases?

I've used SQL once or twice before but never actually learnt it formally.

[gritty rivet]

There are endless resources available, just go with whatever draws you. I kind of like DataCamp for starters. Sqlzoo is a popular one. The SQL questions on LeetCode are fine too

[harsh jolt]

I wrote an sql tutorial for python programmers a while back. let me grab a link...

https://www.owencampbell.me.uk/sql_python_tutorial

[harsh jolt]

@vernal nebula

[vernal nebula]

ok thanks, this is all fairly intuitive! Is it simple enough to directly push a pandas dataframe in as an insert?

[gilded valley]

https://pandas.pydata.org/docs/reference/api/pandas.DataFrame.to_sql.html

[random pagoda]

Hi, I have a question has anyone in this group done a remote software engineering internship or data analytics internship in the USA, UK, or Canada remotely?

[gilded valley]

I did a remote data science internship during Covid

[peak halo]

a lot of programming-related internships have been remote over the last few years. but you're more likely to get an answer if you ask your actual question.

[silver quail]

Dont ask to ask, just ask

[peak halo]

!starify 660882846306795522 "3 hours" This community is intended for users as young as 13, and "horny perfume" is not what we want them to see.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied superstar to @silver quail until <t:1659119261:f> (2 hours and 59 minutes).

Superstarified!

Your previous nickname, horny perfume xoxo, was so bad that we have decided to change it. Your new nickname will be Jay-Z.

You will be unable to change your nickname until <t:1659119261:f>. If you're confused by this, please read our official nickname policy.

[silver quail]

I am sorry for that, forgot to change server nickname

[peak halo]

!unstar 660882846306795522

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: pardoned infraction superstar for @silver quail.

[silver quail]

Thank you

[gilded valley]

Happy to talk here - not in DMs

[random pagoda]

Okay no problem, can you explain how you applied to one of these?

[gilded valley]

I applied to about 500 internships

spamming applications on Gradcracker (UK) and similar sites

[random pagoda]

Wow, that's a lot man how many offers have you got? Do any other sites you know?

[graceful mason]

I did a fully remote embedded software engineer internship during covid (UK)

[delicate bane]

wow this is similar to my experience

[gilded valley]

I stopped responding to programming challenges etc after I got 2/3 interviews

[delicate bane]

finally got a DS internship past spring, now finishing up a software dev internship with same company this summer

[gilded valley]

and all interviews were converted to offers

[buoyant seal]

Nice. That's a really practical way to go.

[near ocean]

Thats actually highly impractical

500 apps before you land an internship? Jesus

[gilded valley]

500 is probably hyperbole
I didn't actually count

but it was just sitting there applying to anything that just required a CV and ctrl+wing any tabs that asked for annoying amounts of info

with LinkedIn Easy Apply though, you can genuinely do probably 60+ applications an hour

[near ocean]

Anything over 100 is just insane really

[peak halo]

Generally speaking, I think applications are more likely to end up in front of a decision maker if you apply on the website for the company

I put any LinkedIn, etc. listing I was interested in in a spreadsheet, and then found it on the website for the company, and applied there

[graceful mason]

I think I maybe applied for 10 at most and got 2 interviews + some personality tests

[gilded valley]

you might be right, but having to make an account and fill in their bullshit forms often takes 10x the time of a LinkedIn Easy Apply. Unless you're specifically interested in that job/company, it doesn't seem worth the effort

[smoky quest]

They end up in the same bin.
The ATSes would uses APIs to publish to indeed, linkedin, website, etc. and then it all gets into an inbox

That's why you would see a lot of jobs.lever or indeed URLs on the job listing pages of the companies

[hearty island]

yay guys i have an interview for an IT position

[hearty island]

that's a good ratio

[summer moth]

what was your journey of becoming data analyst?

[amber crane]

that's a hilarious punishment

[vapid jay]

to get job aat google

do i need a specific school/course

or i can just learn by myself

[hearty island]

getting a cs degree is always nice

[vital wolf]

any one know sites for practicing aptitude questions?

[hearty island]

what's an aptitude question? like behavioral interview questions?

[vital wolf]

mcq type logical reasoning

like that

[hearty island]

not sure, sorry

[vapid jay]

Does anyone have a good cv template here?

[vapid jay]

Does it work well. Gee thanks

[sacred sandal]

hey everyone, I am trying to plan my next steps here and as a developer right now, I was planning to pursue the kubernetes CKA certification. Do you see this as a valid option to pursue along with other recommended skills like devops/code versioning tools, cloud, etc?
I´d say I´m a junior dev, so as from what I can see, docker/k8s is kind of a mandatory skill for you to move forward.
Appreciate your comments

[onyx trellis]

hello guys can anyone help me like where I can get any language certificate official ?

[buoyant seal]

i think you jump a bit of too early into kubernetes
I would recommend
Linux -> Docker -> Docker-compose -> Config managemt like Ansible -> Infra tool like Terraform -> Learn to setup CI CD pipelines, and after then jump to Kubernetes
Ah forgot to mention, you are also in parallel need to learn at least one logging / monioring system, like Prometheus / Loki / Alert Manager / Grafana (or ElasticSearch-Logstash-Kibana can be learned too)

[sacred sandal]

Thanks @buoyant seal . This helps me and gives me a good idea of things I need to know. Some of the basics you mentioned I already have some knowledge like Linux and CI/CD.

[buoyant seal]

You can't know CI CD fully until u tried Continous Deployment, which should be fully automated.
For that you need to know at least one infra provisioning tool to automate cloud provider actions (Terraform / Pulumi / AWS CDK)
And at least one deployment way 1) Config Management into Linux Server (optionally with Docker), 2) Container deployment straight into cloud provider 3) Deployment into kubernetes cluster on push 4) There are also kubernetes native deployment systems like Argo CD, which have a bit different deployment flow
Obviously for almost all of the deployment strategies you need also to try building docker images and pushing into docker registry, before they can be deployed

[sacred sandal]

yeah I'm in the phase of trying to setup automated deployments to get more familiar with all this process.

[buoyant seal]

mm yeah, and for that to happen. prerequisite tools need to be learned

[smoky quest]

that may be perfect for a devops but a bit too much for a dev who wants to get their feet wet though

[buoyant seal]

it is a life saver to learn, if team has no one who knows how to do this or why it should be done at all. Believe me it is a high relieve to throw deployment details out of a head
if his/hear team has no one who knows it, better to learn, otherwise yeah, no hurry

[smoky quest]

not denying the usefulness, just saying that it has escalated very quickly

[buoyant seal]

goals should be placed high and cool xD

[smoky quest]

As a dev, if you start with learning about docker -> docker-compose -> k8s is a valid path as well.
The rest is a very useful and most of them would be required to reach the senior level too

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. k8s as standalone technology is not enough if you can't create your cluster. Some infra provisioning tool is really desired

[smoky quest]

Devs don't provision infra 🙂

[buoyant seal]

plus it is just too much of a jump to high end tech without learning stuff in between

[buoyant seal]

DevOps stands to merge Devs and Ops into one team / body and soul xD

Devs need to know what infra stuff exists in order to plan cloud architecture better

to know which cloud objects exist in order to implement scalable horizontally architecture

[smoky quest]

I completely agree with you on that. But these aren't entry level engineers anymore

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. and i would say the only reason why it should not be learned early, only because backend devs have a lot of their plate already in order to learn how to write code in a scalable way / easy to collobarate with other devs. This stuff is kind of an equal size. And this is kind of more priority than learning infra stuff, as it is their main obligation.

Plus not everyone is into infra xD Everyone has their own kinks to indulge into

[smoky quest]

yep, totally agree.
That;s also why I would have the dev learn about k8s first, get some hands on experience, feel some pain and then introduce them to flux/argocd, patterns (ex: sidecars, etc)

Otherwise there is a risk they learn about something but do not necessarily grasp the problems it's trying to solve since they don't even know they exist yet

[sacred sandal]

very nice discussion guys, I'm enjoying all the tips from the posts

[buoyant seal]

That's exactly why i think they should learn how to deploy into Linux servers first, with configuration management tools liks Ansible, and going with Docker/Docker-compose stuff. More primitive deployment strategies should be learned first, otherwise they would not get why k8s is necessary

[smoky quest]

yeah that's fine too

[scarlet shale]

how easy it is to find a python related job that you can do remotely? Like I'm 90% sure python isn't used in my country so I guess if I want to go full python I would have to be looking for a job elsewhere

[peak halo]

for job hunting, I think it's more important that you know how to do a certain kind of thing (web dev, data science, etc.) than that you've mastered a specific language.

[scarlet shale]

yeah, I was looking at the job postings in pythong.org and they all require some specialization, is this the same with all the other languages?

[peak halo]

I would think so. programming languages are tools. they're hiring you for what you know how to do.

[gritty rivet]

Finding a job you can do remotely is one thing, from another country makes things considerably more difficult

[vapid jay]

Hi, I have a career question:
Am I actually better off moving to the US as a Software Engineer or Data Scientist?
Currently in London but have an American passport too.

Just wondering about cost when you factor in medical, must-have private education for children, having a car is necessary. (not paying for any of those atm and have no intention to for a long time)

Any suggestions on switching from software engineering to product management? Pros and cons? Is product management more stressful?

[smoky quest]

there is no difference

[smoky quest]

it depends more on what you enjoy and the culture at the company than the roles themselves

They can either be very stressful or very chill

[dense mesa]

There's a PM discord server which is good, some would say it's more stressful than software in some regards. You'd probably wanna change your name before joining.

Would also recommend reading Inspired by Marty Cagan

[rustic schooner]

Would you mind sharing that server with me? Id love to get some more insight in what the job entails

[gritty rivet]

Not sure what you mean by "must-have private education" but it's probably just as possible to live without a car in some US cities as it is in London

And medical coverage is not a significant expense here for most professionals here unless self-employed

Though I have no idea how salaries compare

[sturdy badge]

Where is a good place to look for remote part time jobs?

[smoky quest]

oh my bad, I stopped at swe vs ds.

In the whole US vs UK, the USA is still worth it, even with the additional costs. You will be fine with regards to the quality of life as long as you stay along the coasts. But then it depends on what you value the most and that's more of a personal quest

[smoky quest]

linkedin and indeed are great

[native narwhal]

so what kind of salary are you guys satisfied with? is it like $10k per month or what? 😄

[true harness]

depends on...everything

[summer roost]

Cars aren't necessarily required if you move to a large city, since several large US cities have decent public transit. Though large cities have high cost of living. Though so does London, of course.

Medical insurance is not likely to cost you much out of pocket in the US, since the employer generally pays a considerable percentage of the plan premium.

Salaries in the US can be much higher for equivalent software engineering jobs than salaries in London, from my experience.

Bigger differences in my mind would be the cultural differences and ongoing culture wars, the setup of retirement accounts, and the worse social safety net. If you have kids, add the cost of higher education to that list. And the declining quality of US K-12 education

and there's much bigger differences between US states than you might expect. The two party system means that one party can completely run away with things in a state where they have a consistent majority. One of those parties has made it a goal for several decades to try to dismantle public education, for instance, so the quality of the education system in states where that party has a consistent majority is worse than the quality in other states.

[near ocean]

that depends mostly on location because of cost of living and also how many hours go into work as well as what kind of work it is

10k pcm would sure be nice tho

[summer roost]

$120k/year isn't a particularly high salary in the US. In most places, that's an upper middle class salary.

[near ocean]

£120k/year is pretty good, should get there within the next 5 years hopefully

[summer roost]

the exchange rate alone puts that at £120k/year at ~$145k/year

[smoky quest]

and for context, that's close to entry level, past entry level in some areas of the US

[near ocean]

sad that I dont have the option to just move to the US, would be making bags

[graceful mason]

IIRC looking at income of percentage of population £40k is around the same as $100k (top 20% or something)

[true harness]

is that for software dev?

[graceful mason]

As in regardless of job, the 80th percentile for income is £40k in the UK and $100k in the US

[true harness]

sure, but it's different for software dev. in the us, BLS has $120k as the median

[summer roost]

the salary distribution in the UK is way less wide than the one in the US.

that is, the UK is much more tightly clustered around the median.

which is probably a net positive for society, even if not for the high earners.

income inequality is a hot button topic in the US these days. e.g.

Walmart Inc., for instance, has a CEO-to-worker pay ratio of 983:1, with the median person receiving $22,484.

[gilded valley]

For software devs, it's very much par-for-the-course. Comparing to all jobs, the mean wage is 66k the median I think 48k. It's a pretty high salary https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_ct.htm

[summer roost]

Like I said, in most places that's upper middle class.

[gilded valley]

sure - but when does upper middle class stop?

300k is upper middle class

[summer roost]

$300k/year or $400k/year or somewhere around there is where you move firmly into "upper class", I think

[gilded valley]

I know someone who worked for FB on pretty that exact salary who insisted that it was firmly middle class. I think phrasing it in terms of class ends up just bunching things together and not being that helpful, we don't have exact percentiles, but that's probably a top 10% for the US overall, that's a pretty high salary

[summer roost]

To put some numbers on it:
100k/year puts you in the 79th percentile across the US by income.
150k/year in the 90th
200k/year in the 95th
300k/year in the 98th
450k/year in the 99th

[gilded valley]

where are the percentiles coming from?

[summer roost]

https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/

Which was just the first thing I found on google, so if you have better data I'm happy to accept it 😄

that also starts to be skewed as you get to the higher ranges, since people who are rich-rich don't tend to have a huge amount of income, but do have a huge amount of assets, from which they can draw only as much as they need to meet their yearly expenses as income. But that's getting into the weeds.

[gilded valley]

nvm - looking at the wrong page

[smoky quest]

it does matter as the grants can go up and do tend to overtake the % of the comp as one becomes more senior

No different than the CEO being paid 1$/year and also getting 9-10 digits stock plans

[gilded valley]

But yeah, the tool lines up with pretty much what I'd expected, 120k is between the 88th and 89th percentiles

[summer roost]

or congresspeople being paid only $174k per year but making most of their money through legal insider trading.

_>

[past slate]

is working for $45 an hour good?

[summer roost]

Putting a percentile on it is more helpful than saying "upper middle class", anyway, so your point is well taken.

better to be quantitative than qualitative.

[summer roost]

if you spend $50k/month, no. If you spend $50k/year, yes.

[graceful mason]

That's what.... $100k a year for 40 hours a week?
depends where you live

[summer roost]

yeah, my answer was a bit tongue in cheek, but that's exactly what I was driving at.

[graceful mason]

All this talk is real confusing as some from the UK... Does class not having anything to do with social status in the US? For me salary has basically no bearing on class

[gilded valley]

Class in the UK and the US are just viewed in very different ways, and trying to have conversations and getting the UK perspective off is just near impossible in my experience

[smoky quest]

can you expand on your expectations of class and social status?

[summer roost]

the US couples financial independence to class, rather than lineage/upbringing

[dense mesa]

There's broke people in the UK who come from "good lineage" so they're somehow "upper class", load of cope

[gilded valley]

if class is purely tied to income then we should just exclusively refer to income brackets and ditch the idea of class

[smoky quest]

There aren't that many old families because there isn't that much history. in my experience on the west coast, everyone is either a foreign national with no history or a transplant from north -> south or south -> north

[dense mesa]

Class is decided by your tax bracket /s

[summer roost]

"upper middle class" rolls off the tongue better than "in the top 4 tax brackets but likely not wealthy enough to never work again"

[gilded valley]

bump into additional rate bracket, hire a manservant and a gardener

[dense mesa]

God bless the queen

Or save idk which one it is

[summer roost]

but yeah, the UK allows for the possibility of someone being broke but upper class. That's not a concept in US vernacular. Class is tied to assets here.

[graceful mason]

For me class is a mix of family, education, accent etc
You can be working class and rich, and upper class but poor
A lower class person could become insanely rich through hard work, and be accepted by upper class social circles, but still wouldn't be upper class because they don't understand what it's like to live without having to worry about anything

[gilded valley]

One of the key indicators is the kind of work your parents did

[summer roost]

because they don't understand what it's like to live without having to worry about anything
That distinction does still exist in the US, but only to people who come from old money. People who need to work would probably call both of those categories "rich" or "upper class", but those groups subdivide themselves based on who is "nouveau riche" / "new money"

[gilded valley]

there's definitely people who seem to think vaguely Northern Accent = working class

[summer roost]

The US is a huge amount less classist than the UK, FWIW.

I think "upper class" just means something different in the US than it does in the UK, just like "college" does.

and I should remember not to bring it up here in the future, to avoid unnecessarily muddying the waters 🙂

[true harness]

if anything, it emphasizes being quantitative

[summer roost]

yeah, I think that's a good take away - though like I said, as you start to get towards those upper few percentiles, looking at "income" is entirely misleading

[graceful mason]

On an unrelated note I start my new job on Monday and I'm super hyped

[summer roost]

nice!

[fierce oracle]

I've noticed a lot of interview preparation advice focuses on learning the fundamentals and then data structures and algorithms. I almost never hear anyone mention frameworks, but aren't frameworks important for job applications of any kind? Or is it common for software engineers to only know basic python, data structures, and algorithms before they apply for jobs?

[gritty rivet]

I think it varies pretty widely according to the role and company

But yes, DSA in general and LeetCode in particular do seem to dominate

On some level that makes sense... Frameworks aren't hard to learn on the job if you understand the fundamentals

[sullen linden]

Hello,
I am a collage drop out. Can't afford it. Learned only html, css, WordPress CMS, have no other programing knowledge. I am from New Jersey.

1. Can I learn Python and use it to get a job?
2. Is not having a degree stop me from getting a good job with python?
3. How far can I go in career without a degree if I have programming skill set?

[fierce oracle]

Thank you @gritty rivet

[fierce oracle]

I'm just a beginner, but based on my research on the same topic you're interested in, you'll need to expand your skill set. The short answer is yes, if you learn python you can use it to get a job. The long answer is no, you'll need more skills before you can realistically work as a python programmer.

Other skills you'll need on top of HTML and CSS include:

• Python fundamentals (how to code)
• Data structures and algorithms (how to code efficiently and correctly)
• Testing and debugging in python (how to make sure your code works at a professional level)
  (The three above are all separate skills learned in different chunks, not in a standard beginner python course)
• JavaScript to supplement your HTML and CSS knowledge for WebDev
• Django and/or Flask to supplement WebDev on the Python end
• Scipy, Numpy, and Pandas to supplement Python common framework knowledge
• SQL knowledge to supplement WebDeb with general database knowledge

From there if you want to specialize in something else you can, like machine learning, data bases, etc. The skills above, based on what I've read/heard, should be enough to get you started. Each skill will probably take a few months to learn, but some only a few weeks if you work hard. I hope that was helpful, but you may still want to listen to more experienced people here if their opinion/advice differs.

[sullen linden]

Thank you for your advice. Your advice helped me understand on how far I have to go to achieve the ability to get a professional level. But, do you think, not having a degree will be a problem for me to get a job?

[fierce oracle]

I haven't applied to any jobs yet myself, so keep that in mind, but I do not get the impression not having a degree will matter as long as you can complete projects and communicate well.

[true harness]

the truth is that not having a degree will force you work much harder than other candidates; most of them will have degrees

[true harness]

a web dev is not going to need scipy, numpy, or pandas

[smoky quest]

You will eventually be able to find a job, but it will be more difficult to prove your skills and also it won't lead to the same outcome in terms of career or compensation.
But it doesn't look like you have a choice anyway.

[sullen linden]

I will definitely gonna do research, I just want to make sure, if I am spending time to learn something for future, will I be able to achieve good results without a degree or am I wasting time. That is all.

[smoky quest]

there won't be getting any guaranteed results. Many people fail along that path (and abandon) while some others succeed.
Your competition will have degrees, opportunities, projects and internships. So you will have to work and learn extra hard to make up for this or settle for much lower jobs

Alternatively, looking into grants and students loans can be worthy in CS

[peak halo]

a web dev could use pandas to make html tables, if they want to alienate themselves from their colleagues.

[gritty rivet]

#1 possibly, but think of Python as a single tool more then a skillset. If you want to be a data analyst or a backend web developer or some other specialty, you'll need at least a little more then Python

#2 it's not an absolute 100% "no way", but considerably harder without a degree

#3 not sure how to answer that... You can have a reasonable career, but you'll be handicapped. If money is literally the reason you can't get a degree, maybe you can go back and finish part time in a few years or maybe you really will decide you don't need to, I can't say

If you're just desperate to get a job in the general IT field, a much quicker route is to do a certification like the CompTIA A+ and do desktop support or help desk. You won't earn as much as an SWE but it's a start. I did that route for a few years before I became a SWE

[vapid jay]

Where can I download python codes? I want to see if I can understand them after a week of studying

[fickle flax]

You can try github or codepen.io

But just a word of caution, some python code even the most advance may not seem understandable because it uses libraries , software architecture so it can be more complex but it okay as long as understand syntx or you feel comfortable to start making things.

[buoyant seal]

1. for career is required to learn not just python (pink purple squares), but also Software Engineer general skills (green squares). And in case if going web backend Dev, learning yellow squares is needed too.

https://github.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/blob/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg

Check https://roadmap.sh for common roadmaps for all web related paths, Frontend included. My map is just more full one Backend map, due to mentioning to learn what is needed to learn but for some reason no map mentions

My map can also gives better clues what to learn for desktop/mobile/embedded devs since green squares are equally reusable for all SWEs

As far as I know, green squares are significantly less important to know if u a frontend Dev, that what makes this path significantly more simple. I am not sure for sure if it is less relevant or not though

[solid aspen]

Of course you can find a job. You can choose an area you'd like to work, like NLP, CV, or something. Then search for the courses in the internet and study. Python is much more easier than the other languages, and your skill is much more important than your degree. Good luck to you!

[timber wharf]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bId3N7QZec

Lmfao.

[honest pivot]

I have to say, I had assumed "invert a binary tree" must be something hard or confusing. I knew what a binary tree was, but hadn't heard about "inverting" one. I looked it up recently and it's dead simple, lol. (And it's just a test if you can write a simple recursive function.)

[vapid jay]

its dead simple and regurgitation

id rather have someone write a recursive function without nothing fancy or explain what a recursive function is

lc is mostly regurgitation designed to feed a system of pretentious pseudo intellectuals

[honest pivot]

I don't see any reason to call them pretentious. There is something you can get from asking a medium difficulty algorithm question and then having a discussion over the reasoning behind it and how you might improve it.

[true harness]

do you have any examples of a recursive function without nothing fancy

[vapid jay]

sort trough a list, add the elements, if element is not an int and is a list all itself again

[true harness]

I can only guess what problem you're trying to describe, but what makes that less fancy

[vapid jay]

you dont mess with unused data structures like binary trees

especially if youre a webdev, or a normal dev youll never touch that stuff

Hi all,

So I am a student, and I am looking for part time programming job (or full time if sufficient pay/hours can be negotiated to different times)

What would be your advice?

I can share resume+basic CV+website+GitHub if your interested.

Thanks

When I say student I mean I am doing a Cert IV in programming as I have only recently turned 17 (although I develop many bots, mobile apps etc)

[signal hemlock]

I dont completely agree, for backend engineering you can albiet at very specific situations leverage advanced data structures like trees, eg if you are working on some micro-framework or library that will be called by others in the org

[ivory sluice]

@solar dune we don't allow advertising, please stop posting such messages

[smoky quest]

except when you do 😉

[smoky quest]

What is there to memorize there?
If someone has to memorize that, it would surface a deeper problem and something worth working on

[vapid jay]

Well you need the job. So you memorize

At least in usa. We dont have that problem here

[smoky quest]

That's missing the point though

inverting a binary tree is not a "know the trick or fail" type of question (which have no place in interviews anyway)

[vapid jay]

Well you dont pay attention to binary trees so its a niche thing

[smoky quest]

binary trees are part of the fundamental data structure. So maybe our divergence of opinion starts from there

[vapid jay]

I would say so. I am product focused. Fundamentals dont matter if they are not used

Anything that is not used is good as dead.

[smoky quest]

That is unrelated to the product

Without fundamentals and understanding of the building blocks, there won't be much product to be built

[vapid jay]

Well you dont learn the fundamentals because you love the fundamentals. You learn them if you are going to use them

And i havent used a binary tree in forever

[dark arrow]

have you used recursion in forever

[vapid jay]

I have used it in coding challenges

[smoky quest]

And that's fair. But then the type of jobs where you barely use the fundamentals is not the most prevalent one and certainly not a reason to generalize it to a whole field. It's also the type of job for which bootcamps are more suited and that aren't the most compensated

Interviews should definitely reflect the responsibilities of the role to be hired for

[vapid jay]

Which jobs dont use fundamentals webdev? I dont know a job that uses binary tree traversal

[vapid jay]

Ive had very good interview except very few. And they were all on the details of language/fundamentals/bug fixing etc.

[smoky quest]

Anything with a tree like structure, which is way more common than you may think.
I can also cite an example of a frontend engineer implementing a DP algo to be able to surface the differences between two structures

[near ocean]

this is very controversial advice I would say, can you qualify your experience a bit?
what tech do you use, what do you work with and on?

[buoyant seal]

not really needed to know how to use may be in details, but still needed to know how it works for sure.
postgresql default index works on binary trees.

[true harness]

a b-tree, no?

[smoky quest]

yep and still a tree and still good to at least understand when it's good and when it's not so good

[vapid jay]

Python/cpp/and java c# dev. I use the first two most of the time.

Ive heard about these tests wreaking havoc on us graduates on webdev somehow

[smoky quest]

there are a lot of candidates, much less good candidates.
the huge amount of money involved attracts all sorts of people

[vapid jay]

I mean as in usa graduates. Even google did internal checks and found out they would get the same result if they chose the candidates randomly

[honest pivot]

There are a couple different variations of data structures like a binary tree, they are of course important if your job involves implementing algorithms that benefit from logarithmic insertion and retrieval.

[vapid jay]

So these weird hoops are completely useless

[true harness]

have you used cpp's std::set? or std::map?

[smoky quest]

that wasn't the outcome of that study

[vapid jay]

Not the map. Is it the same on python

[vapid jay]

They published a book on it

[honest pivot]

There are lots of jobs that are not web dev! And many people need to think about fundamental data structures. I do every day.

[true harness]

no, cpp's map uses a binary search tree. set also uses a binary search tree

[vapid jay]

Well the issue is these are beings used to cut down on the candidates. When i apply to small gigs the interview is always easy. So its not about getting someone skilled

[smoky quest]

I know, and their conclusion is not that you can hire randomly

[honest pivot]

Of course they are being used to cut down the candidates. If it's a job that requires understanding fundamentals, then that is a reasonable thing to do.

[summer roost]

winnowing down the pool of applicants is the entire point of an interview, after all

[vapid jay]

I think its very pretentious. Majority of the folks writing code have no idea of what is going on the leetcode problems. Its a pseudo intellectualist thing

[honest pivot]

We're talking about very different needs. If you don't need to understand fundamentals of DSA to do your job, then that is totally valid! But there are many jobs that do require this.

[smoky quest]

What are the arguments behind these claims?
All the jobs I have worked at did require trees and basic DSA

[near ocean]

do you use them professionally?

[vapid jay]

I use python part time

And cpp back in the day for embbedded

[summer roost]

honestly, for the question about inverting a binary tree, you could go into that question without knowing what a binary tree is and still be fine. It's such a simple data structure that there's not really any prior knowledge required to answer questions about it

[near ocean]

is the issue with the data structure used or with the entire concept of testing fundamental data structures and associated methods

if they used some other obscure data structure like, idk a multiset, then sure I'd be pissed off, but tree or linked lists are pretty common structures

[summer roost]

Yeah. I think the only data structures that are conceptually simpler than a binary tree would be a linked list and a dynamic array

a binary tree is really just a generalization of a linked list where every node has 2 "next" pointers instead of 1

[near ocean]

like, I've had to use small simple trees and I do internal tooling in python/vba/powershell

[true harness]

a multi set isn't even that obscure, though. it's just a collections.Counter

[near ocean]

cant do set operations with a Counter

[true harness]

you can, actually. you can add, subtract them. also union, intersection

[honest pivot]

Not all set operations make sense with a multiset

[near ocean]

smh are you gonna make me google some obscure data structure now

[honest pivot]

It's not obscure! Symmetric difference makes no sense when you can have any number of an element 🙂

[lime bramble]

Any hackaton guys?

[peak halo]

we don't really advertise/promote hackathons here.

[solar narwhal]

hey is pcap worth it

(i am gonna enter btech (cse))

[gritty rivet]

Are employers in your country looking for it? Check job listings.

Beyond that, "worth it" always depends on everything so you may need to be more specific

[solar narwhal]

hmm k i will tell everything i need you to understand

see i completed my schooling in india and am going to enter btech in computer science engineering i will be graduating in the next four years and i have a lot of interest in artificial intelligence so now i am completely free for 2 months and thinking to learn python(which interests me) and i wanna know will this certification be useful in the future

[gritty rivet]

I'm in the US and don't know how things work in India but in general I would say there are probably better ways to spend your time, for example building a portfolio of projects.

[solar narwhal]

all i know is basic python and mysql;-; with very little experience

[gritty rivet]

That's enough to try building a CRUD API with Flask or FastAPI, which would be a good experience if you've never done it

[solar narwhal]

ooo 1st lemme find out what are they xd

[delicate bane]

+1 for FastAPI

[near ocean]

This channel is for career discussion, have you look at #python-discussion and #❓｜how-to-get-help

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> shitposting. It's also similar to another shitpost from 2-3h ago that got cleaned. So potentially an alt account

[balmy spade]

Keep it relevant to the topic of the room.

[random pagoda]

Hi, if any one has studied Knuth art of computer programming and if so, how it helped them in their career? I am planning to study this to enhance my skills and want to use it become a better python dev.

[vapid jay]

I m now my complete diploma in computer engineer... So software engineer practice it's good for now .... ???

[copper yarrow]

what can I do to earn some cash (like commissions) with some technical knowledge I currently have. (In the meantime so I can earn some passive money). I like maintaining servers. I have some experience with ubuntu. Or python programming

Iam also interested to atleast have some experience with tasks to challenge and prepare myself for future similar harder jobs.

[smoky quest]

as a side gig or full time job?

[copper yarrow]

side gig atm

[smoky quest]

fiverr and upwork then. But they may be bottom of the barrel type of compensation.
As a student, it comes down to either "knowing someone" or a typical student job

[copper yarrow]

I am currently still a student, and I feel like I am wasting my current potential not doing anything about it like accepting requests for other people or being part of a small team of developers. even If I am inexperienced on other scopes, the fact I have goal will strive me to atleast accumulate some knowledge and learn it.

[smoky quest]

You would be wasting your potential taking small gigs to admin their servers

The best way to grow your potential is to learn more and have more side projects

[copper yarrow]

the issue is I kinda need income to maintain these projects as well. AWS costs me and I have so many project ideas using these services..

[smoky quest]

a rpi or a nuc can go a long way 😉

[copper yarrow]

Hmm yeah they're certainly worth an investment.

[smoky quest]

also as an interviewer, I don't care if your project is currently running on a server or not. I care the most about the skills you demonstrate and have learnt

[vapid jay]

Are my projects weak?

Especially the java one for exampke

[near ocean]

not necessarily the projects but I think the descriptions (bullet points) you have for them are weak yes
you should be explaining what the project accomplishes first and foremost, then the tech used

[graceful mason]

don't assume they'll look at your github so anything interesting on there should be written out
generic stuff like snakes and ladders can probably just be left out

[vapid jay]

Yeah thats why those small projects are just on one line

[vapid jay]

Ohh thats good.

Any other advice, i assume youre a professional cuz the advice good

[near ocean]

that's all for now for what we can see in the screenshot

[vapid jay]

Thank you

[near ocean]

Maybe work on your skills section a bit too, but that is not so consequential

[vapid jay]

What could I do for the skills? Those languages are what i am familiar with and im self conscious about not having very good knowledge of them due to not having done "professional" work yet

[near ocean]

you should be prepared to answer basic questions about anything you list on your cv
but what I was talking about is that some of them dont seem to belong to the categories you have
bootstrap is a framework, .NET is a development platform and runtime, doesnt exactly fit next to flask

I don't have categories on mine, I just list tech I've familiar with

[graceful mason]

I'd recommend putting Skills at the top and tailoring it to anywhere you apply to

[near ocean]

that's what I did, also helps with getting all the buzzwords for automated screening systems

[vapid jay]

Thanks a lot

[vapid jay]

Some moron convinced me otherwise thank you. I will do that

[near ocean]

its definitely more work, I didnt bother with that

[vapid jay]

Exactly. Is it better to put uni on top as well

[near ocean]

if you have experience, no, if you dont then i guess you have no choice

[vapid jay]

cv formatting talk?

[vapid jay]

I have no paid work experience no

[vapid jay]

My cv is up there. Were talkingg about formatting and tips yes

[near ocean]

do you have any kind of experience outside of personal projects?

[vapid jay]

better to say sorry than ask for permission

[vapid jay]

Unfortunately only the robotics instructor. Ill try and get an embedded gig this year tho part time. Fingers crossed

[near ocean]

thats fine, i didnt have exp either, I put my education on top

[vapid jay]

Thanks. Hope you have a gig now tho

[near ocean]

generally you want your cv to be structured like so
Name and contact details
Short oneliner skills section
Experience
Personal Projects / Education

but not everyone can do this, I couldnt at the start

for sure (github), and linkedin
those go in the contact details section

[graceful mason]

i'd try looking at ocado if you haven't already - they have variable length embedded internships in hertfordshire

[vapid jay]

experience wise, depending where you are applying, and what your education/personal projects is like

is not really a thing for junior positions

[vapid jay]

Thank you. I know. They gave me three algo wuestions, botched the last one with a few test cases. Oh well.

its very dependent on where you are applying, your educational background, and for what, but there's loads of junior opportunities for 0 experience

[vapid jay]

Yeah theyre at the top

imo jobs are usually about stack

[vapid jay]

Are you sure. I am looking for junior gigs

Yes i am, it depends on where you are applying and for what, of course

[vapid jay]

Where to apply to jr positions? Linkedin?

I meant what company

[vapid jay]

At no names tbh

No names are a bit more difficult

Not google or big companies. Are bigger ones easier?

What you want is a saas company that is not a faang

Sass or saas?

saas

I see. Where to find them?

[near ocean]

Which region are you in? linkedin and indeed are usually the most reliable

[vapid jay]

Hertfordshire, UK

[near ocean]

oh UK yea, linkedin and indeed

theres also giveagradago, which is how i got my first job

[vapid jay]

Linked in is good. 1000 new jobs a day for software. Ill mass apply like a machine gun

Yeah ive heard that, along gradcracker

Ive heard of those

[near ocean]

and also a bunch of other services that help with graduates

[vapid jay]

globant/accenture are two that tend to grab anyone that can do a loop and teach them their stack

[vapid jay]

Ill make sure to look at accenture

i wouldn't recommend though

[near ocean]

i havent heard of good things about accenture tbh

[vapid jay]

yeah, you dont want to work in places like that

I know some companies love to teach their stack to grads on gradcracker. Im looking for their stuff

[near ocean]

also avoid grad schemes of the type,

We'll train you and place you in a company for a percentage of your salary
lots of these out there

[vapid jay]

Issue is im an immigrant so i only have two years of sponsorship free work

Tbh id do smth like that if i were acompany xDdd

there is no growth in places like that other than their corporate ladder, its a stack game

Oh hey its the coffee maaan!

[vapid jay]

Oh nk ive seen those

the problem is what happens when the stack is no longer relevant

You learn a new one i guess?

but then you are just cycling on the same level

Unfortunately thats the case

learning the new hip framework

[near ocean]

Why is it unfortunate? it benefits everyone

[vapid jay]

So choose a comp with a decent stack, some seniors told me they switch stacks with every new project or smth

your personal goal should go to make your game more and more meta

[vapid jay]

Does it benefit the company?

[vapid jay]

I know python and java. Does it get more meta?

[near ocean]

It benefits those who matter, us, the employers
If companies match offers it also benefits them as well, yes

[vapid jay]

What you want is to develop transferable skills

[vapid jay]

How to do that. Does any work grow transferrable skills

Let me put it this way, if you are a web developer, and your company does web development and sell websites to clients, how do you grow as a web developer?

You grow by getting meta

[vapid jay]

You learn web technologies and how apis work for example

Getting meta is very vague

[near ocean]

soft skills are transferrable, technical skills could also be transferrable, learning how to do code reviews, pair programming, reading docs, archtecturing software, etc

[vapid jay]

Yes, non tech specific skills should betransferrable am I right?

No, you recognize patterns in what your clients are asking for, and develop meta tools for making that

[near ocean]

yes, how to negotiate with coworkers, state and defend your opinion, cooperate, talk to clients, etc are all transferrable

[vapid jay]

I mean as in coding as well, someone told me exact tech languages or frameworks are bike shedding and the real experience is more about code architechture debugging etc

The 10th time you program a listing web of some sort you have to wise up and start developing a listing-web-making tool

[near ocean]

yes that is correct, learn one you learn them all, the majority of the struggle is how to use them to build real products

[vapid jay]

Its all about patterns and going meta, as a programmer the game is to make your computer work for you

[vapid jay]

Thanks for the confirmation. @vapid jay is it like writing small scripts to do a decent amount of non automated work to work automatically?

Its that, but as you grow in your profession, you should be applying it more and more and more

Its like refactoring

you refactor in a project, well, refactor when you realize 10 clients are asking the same thing

abstract all you can

@near ocean what is your tech stack btw. I want to see if it is comparable to mine as well and im curious?

[vapid jay]

Oh exactly. Im not dumb enough to do everything from scratch again ahah

I mean, when you realize you have done the same function in 10 projects, your next step should be to try to make that function as abstract as possible so you can then use it in all future projects of the same kind

You should, at the same time as doing your work, be creating a toolset so every project will become easier than the one before, as you gain more knowledge in the problem's area

Thats what i mean by going meta

[vapid jay]

I now understand what do you mean by meta

For that I need to understand what is going with the clients by working with a decent amount as well

Yeah, it requires you to build your understanding of the domain

Companies like the ones we mentioned before, globant or accenture, are very sleek versions of that mindset

[vapid jay]

Ill take a look at accenture tho. What the worst that could happen

You get a good salary and work experience, lol

[vapid jay]

Idc about salary as long as it is over 25k. Is it low or high for graduates?

25k an year?

US/EU?

[near ocean]

I started off at 25k GBP, I don't have a stack, I don't do webdev, I use Python/VBA/PowerShell and I do internal tooling and reporting for a small fintech startup, switching to Fullstack with Python/ReactJS next week tho

[vapid jay]

Yeah ofc. Uk

shouldnt be a problem

as far as i've heard thats standard

[vapid jay]

Thanks a lot for this. I know not everyone is comfortable doing it. Your ts looks nice. Hope they trained you for js tho.

[vapid jay]

I could go lower to 23, you know i need to have an edge since im an immigrant.

[near ocean]

I've used JS/TS before but yea hopefully I'll improve quite a bit during my time there

[graceful mason]

depends where you live too - I interned for 30k and graduated for 40k near Hertfordshire

[vapid jay]

Thats awesome. Which stack and company/sector tho?

[graceful mason]

embedded software engineering for ocado technology
internship was for one of their bot teams using QP/C (embedded C), Java, C++, Python, GCS with a couple of secondments using GCS/Terraform and React/Spring
then was hired direct entry to a new charging systems team that uses the same stack as the bot team

[vapid jay]

Daaaammmmnn ggggg. You must have bombed the leetcode question they send tho. Ill have to do some part time embedded for my final year. Hopr I can land a good job later on like that. 40k almost double what i eant for grad

[dense mesa]

How were you bashing leetcode as an interview strategy without professional work experience?

[graceful mason]

tbh the leetcode is just a way of thinning out the huge amount of applicants they get, it mostly comes down to your CV and interviews
if you have a solid CV they aren't going to penalise you a huge amount for messing up a leetcode question

[vapid jay]

Only few companies send it here. Id say ocado is one of the justifiable one since they do algos on the bots

[vapid jay]

They penalised me for missing an edge case on the hard question

[vapid jay]

Other than that it is completely useless. As cat said its for thinning out 200 applicants they get

[versed beacon]

Any python jobs out threre?

[foggy marten]

Hey, I'm looking for universities/colleges, that I could go to after I finish HS. I was thinking that computer science would be the best major, but I am still not sure what exactly I would pursue in that sphere. My grades are average and I try not to focus on them too much. Anyone have any recommendations for universities with a decent tuition cost? Also not sure whether computer science would be a good major, thanks. Netherlands, EU.

[vapid jay]

In us go to community college or state school

[dense mesa]

This is probably more a discussion for #pedagogy, but if you have no formal work experience and haven't graduated yet, how do you actually know that leetcode-style questions aren't suitable for interviews?

What do you propose instead?

[dense mesa]

If by here you mean the UK, it's extremely dependent on where you're applying

[vapid jay]

Yeah. Some big companies, especially from usa use it. Even small companies in usa dont use it as well. Its luck tbh in usa and its not standard practice in uk.

[dense mesa]

Where are you getting this information from out of interest? And what do you propose they do instead?

[vapid jay]

Why are you so passionately defending leetcode

[dense mesa]

Where am I defending leetcode

[gilded valley]

Tonnes of companies do them, it might not be the majority but it's definitely pretty common

[vapid jay]

Around 30% do them. Some big ones where more hr oriented.

[dense mesa]

Is this 30% of the ones you applied to?

[vapid jay]

More like 5% i applied to.

I suppose is more for certain companies.

Companies that gain little traction often have a chat with the senior

[gilded valley]

I can think of at least 2 UK tech companies that did leetcode questions - Improbable and Red-something-or-other

[vapid jay]

I got visa, ocado only. And some other company did smth similar. Rest were very chill

[dense mesa]

Not sure why you think I'm passionately defending leetcode, I'm more interested in what you believe should be in place of it

[vapid jay]

Ok. Code review. Bugfix. Fundamentals questions. All of them little by little

[dense mesa]

If there was something better in every aspect, that's basically a solid business idea right there

[vapid jay]

But as i said lc is used to thin out people, not filter. Both are different

[dense mesa]

Does a leetcode style question not cover all of this? How many more hours would these take

[vapid jay]

Each taking 6 minutes so done in 20 mins.

I done one with soft skills and tech skills which took about an hour. For an internship

[dense mesa]

Would you apply this same process for grad interviews or beyond?

[vapid jay]

If i were the company?

[dense mesa]

Yes, imagine you're the CSO and need to streamline recruiting as enough resource hours are wasted on leetcode interviews

[vapid jay]

I would do smth similar. Coding practice/code review(not some invert your this and that but production code), bugfix, architecture.

Which ds could be used in what contex, what the differences, between ds's and tech stacks, languages, some concepts like shallow copy or deep copy, stack vs heap, inheritance oop questions

[dense mesa]

With 6 minutes each?

[vapid jay]

No more like 4 of them each 5 minutes or 6 up to 30

Rest 30 is knowing about personal ambitions, if good listener, can learn, has potential

[vapid jay]

What do you think about it. If you get around 10 applicants a job this is good filtering. If you get 100 then lc is necessary

Or have the hr do phone interviews for soft skills according to selected cvs if you have a lot

[dense mesa]

Sure sounds good 😊

[faint obsidian]

Heyy sup?

[true harness]

there's no way you can even present a problem in 5 minutes, let alone have someone think of a solution

[vapid jay]

Why are you so passionately defending leetcode?

[true harness]

i'm not? i'm just wondering how your proposal will work. you can't present a leetcode problem in 5 minutes, either

[vapid jay]

Well since leetcode doesnt anything should be better than that

Its a stupid trend google started. No wonder their products keep failing

[vapid jay]

For non grad positions experience talks. For grads knowledge of concepts and personality talks. Its very simple

[gilded valley]

if you're so sure you've got the right idea as to how to hire the best people at a given price point - then you should start a recruitment business

[vapid jay]

This is the only place where ive seen people not bash lc to hell and beyond. Yall are super weird

[buoyant seal]

That would be a tough competition with multiple online games created just for the sake of recruiting IT people.
And multiple body shop reselling companies
And who knows what else kind of recruiting

I think in case of IT recruiting, people went with everything already

[gilded valley]

Recruiting is hard - but if you're managing to beat out all of the companies doing apparently worthless leetcode interviews, then you have a succesfull business model

[vapid jay]

There are popup scams like algoexpert making money off of this stuff

[gilded valley]

the fact is that getting hiring right takes a lot of time effort and consideration, and it's incredibly difficult to do for things like grad schemes where you're hiring 30 people at once

[buoyant seal]

Technically I agree. Leetcode interviews are kind of bad.
But it has its own merit being easily automated

[gilded valley]

there's two separate things - leetcode as a pre-filter application step, i.e before you speak to a human - and leetcode style interviews where you sit down and work through a problem with an engineer

both have some merit. The second one has the merit of possibly being completely discounted if a candidate shines in another area

[buoyant seal]

I would propose something like

1. first part with HR to make contact
2. second round is fully automated leetcode task
3. thorough technical interview in a more or less free style, but with feeling certain questionary list
   And having practical task to refactor some bad code example on purpose at least

This makes sure to waste minimal IT specialist time, while still being thorough

[near ocean]

I think going into a leetcode interview with a negative mindset is what's causing this intense dislike
they're not there for you to solve things perfectly with 100% efficiency and pass all test cases first time
they're there for you to show how you tackle a problem, explaining what youre thinking out loud, ask about test cases, ask for hints, etc

(and also to weed out people lying on their cv that cant type up a fizzbuzz solution)

[vapid jay]

I did easy, medium and hard but hard missed a case or two and i was immideatly rejected for ocado for example. They dontcare about test cases not meeting

[gilded valley]

I think if I were hiring, the steps I would go for is:

1. Very simple leetcode style interview, less about dsalg more just a very solvable problem which any decent programmer could do. Just to filter out jokers
2. General technical/cultural interview for 30m with a developer
   3.a) Programming interview where you work through a real problem in a pair programming context
   3.b) Software architecture interivew

[vapid jay]

They are hr heavy companies who do not know how to interview that get 200+ apps

[gilded valley]

for grads or interns, I'd just crank up the difficulty of the leetcode question

because you get hundreds of them - and it's perfectly reasonable to expect a university graduate to be comfortable with data structures and algorithms

[near ocean]

just cause some company is doing a bad job with their interviews doesnt mean that style of interview is bad