python-discussion

[gleaming knoll]

i dont expect a beginner to actually learn much from this, its too abstract, i just tried to explain it without too much magic

[fossil steeple]

they prbly learnt at least one thing

[slow gust]

Yeah its hard to understand but im reading it

[brittle vine]

metaclases are basically the type of classes

[fossil steeple]

classes of classes as type and class are interchangeable

[brittle vine]

the built-in default metaclass is type

[gleaming knoll]

really the most important part is

i think they are a topic which is just interesting to know about to understand the object model and hierarchy of python better, but finding a real problem which they solve is very rare

[fossil steeple]

at least in python

[gleaming knoll]

you can absolutely never learn about metaclasses and still use python effectively
they are pretty much an esoteric feature

[slow gust]

Wow bro tysm.is it like 1 else int then type?

[fossil steeple]

(in most cases b4 someone finds the one case)

[grave tree]

!mute 1242525097357738095 1D Seriously take a break. You're not actually reading my messages or understanding what I'm trying to say.

Misleading beginners until someone else has to step in is not okay, even if you mean it as a joke. I've told you before that tone is hard to tell via text. If you do not make it clear, then it's not creating the environment we want. You have to follow our code of conduct in this server.

Take a break and think about how you're coming across.

[edgy kraken]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied timeout to @fossil steeple until <t:1775857942:f> (1 day).

[shy salmon]

guys im sorry so i hade state testing and i dind't study nothing

in python and i forgot stuff

i learned before

[gleaming knoll]

what i meant by 1 : int : type is that just as how 1 is an int, int is a type
and just like how you can define something like int, you can define something like type, and instances of that would be something like int

[slow gust]

Ohh.Hard to understand 😅 .But thank you so much bro,I appreciate it

[gleaming knoll]

its absolutely not necessary to understand, specially for a beginner
but if you like learning about unusual language features, its one of those
if you do want to learn about it - you should only learn about it later, as it is impossible to actually grasp it before learning atleast basics of "OOP" in python.

[celest breach]

What did you forget?

[shy salmon]

like def

import i just need a review

[slow gust]

My next lesson is.

Variables
Data entry
Follow the values
Program the calculations!

[gleaming knoll]

i think topics like metaclasses are what separates "the working programmer" from a "programming language enthusiast"
they are like, absolutely not necessary, and almost impossible to find a usecase for, but just interesting to learn about

[shrewd plinth]

I'm closing in on a decade of python experience and have never used them.

decadeish

[gleaming knoll]

though knowing that in python types are first class values is pretty useful i think
like, you can just have code that works on types to do some basic but useful metaprogramming

[celest breach]

The keyword def is used to define functions. Functions are blocks of code that you give a name. You can define parameters for the function which are variables that will exist within that function's scope. When you call a function you specify the function name and any arguments that the function will take in parenthesis. These arguments must match the parameter list that you defined for the function. You can also return a value from a function. The return value must be assigned to a variable to prevent it from being lost. It is also possible for a function to return nothing, and in that case the return keyword isn't necessary. A simple example of a function that takes one argument to fill one defined parameter and returns an int value is:

def foo(x):
  return x + 3

Which you would call like this:

result = foo(5)

And you can print the returned value you assigned to result like this:

print(result)

This would print the value 8 to standard output.

[vale wasp]

I have never done anything with metaclasses outside of a classroom.

[autumn forge]

ideal; you've probably been making things that are actually useful /j

[shrewd plinth]

Wait. What does the /j mean in this context 😄

[vale wasp]

They can be useful but not too often.

[vale wasp]

Just kidding. Or joking.

[autumn forge]

it looks like I'm joking about them making useful things

[shrewd plinth]

No I know, but joking about what lol

yeah, that, haha

[autumn forge]

I don't mean that 🥺

[runic hound]

plz

do this

[shrewd plinth]

[vale wasp]

I interpreted it as you saying making metaclasses is less than useful.

[autumn forge]

that was my intention

[vale wasp]

In a joking manner.

[shrewd plinth]

I am just teasing, lol

[grave tree]

!warn 1392976550722273290 Don't advertise here

[edgy kraken]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @runic hound.

[runic hound]

@grave treehow

[shrewd plinth]

omg I thought soph got warned at first, since I onyl saw it out of the corner of my eye

[grave tree]

This server is not the place to advertise your youtube channel

[runic hound]

i didn't advertise

i said plz do this

with a link

[vale wasp]

You asked people to subscribe to a youtube channel. That's a form of advertising.

[grave tree]

yes, that's the same as advertising. You're trying to get people to subscribe to your youtube channel and posted a link to it. That's advertising

[autumn forge]

paradoxically I find tone tags often obscure meaning more than they reveal it

I start second guessing why they even decided to add it

[vale wasp]

Text is not an ideal form of transmitting nuance.

[shrewd plinth]

[Resignated statement] We really need to just start talking like Elcor

[vale wasp]

Elcor???

[autumn forge]

you're right, we should use stage directions instead

[shrewd plinth]

They were a race in Mass Effect series. A lot of their communication was based in micro changes in their posture/gut fauna/smells or something that were indecipherable to most. So they always prefaced their statement with something like "Chastinging rebuke. That's unfair to the new person"

[vale wasp]

Ahh.

[blazing badge]

Are people still buying stuff with their own money in the big 26?

genuine question

[craggy trench]

gas, probably

[cerulean ravine]

what's the alternative?

[vale wasp]

Are you offering to buy things for me with your money?

[steel whale]

ever hear of BNPL?

[vale wasp]

It's still your money in the end.

[steel whale]

everyone's on that stuff now

[vale wasp]

That is the kind of thing that bites people in the ass.

[steel whale]

couldn't say less, bit my aunt in hers.

[vale wasp]

Anyone here planning on going to PyCon US?

[steel whale]

i cant even afford a ticket to the US

[vale wasp]

I get that.

🦗

[gleaming knoll]

a cricket to the US

[vale wasp]

Apparently.

[indigo phoenix]

The proliferation of BNPL is really concerning.

[shrewd plinth]

Do I want to know what it is?

I mean, I guess I want to know enough to make that question

[vale wasp]

Buy now pay later.

[steel whale]

klarna

[fiery yarrow]

i'm not convinced bnpl is done even remotely as often as it's offered

[timid ember]

Black hat python api end point hacking with security vulnerabilities💔

[steel whale]

well yeah

theres something called rent and loans

[crisp jay]

Steal

[autumn pelican]

Its done enough to cause 100s of millions in net losses for klarna

(People don't pay it back)

[fiery yarrow]

[dusk adder]

I guess you could use free software if you don't want to pay

[steel whale]

hire leonel and marco

[blazing badge]

Black hat

[grave tree]

As a reminder for folks, this channel is for Python discussion and also our #rules do need to be followed

[timid ember]

💔🙏

[stray field]

I ruined my black hat by washing it with bleach. Now I'm a whitehat.

Ask me how I turned it into a redhat

[crisp jay]

Systemd

[fiery yarrow]

my white hat has an oil spot that didn't go away 😔

[fiery yarrow]

so how goes pdm

[crisp jay]

Use the "everybody loves systemd" shirt

[gleaming marten]

Are we back to pdm

I remember aboo shilling it

[half pewter]

what's pdm?

[stray field]

I switched most of my repos to use Justfile

[fiery yarrow]

kat rebelled against uv about 20ish hours ago

[grave tree]

it goes well. The init is too verbose for my tastes, but hey, survey result stuff is underway

[crisp jay]

Is that gnu make but MIT?

[stray field]

Its based on make

But it's not a build orchestrator

Ninja is what you should be using

[half pewter]

yeah i'm hoping uv cleans up it's act before my next project... but dang openai didn't waste any time polluting the waters

[dusk adder]

what are the merits of the rebellion?

[crisp jay]

What happend?

[stray field]

Where's that uv fork that implemented dev scripts?

[fiery yarrow]

yet another python manager

[half pewter]

openai bought astral, I don't think there's any damning evidence that they broke uv, but uv init is failing now

[fiery yarrow]

wait you too?

[frosty oriole]

i dont think theres a correlation

[half pewter]

I haven't tried, was just responding to mud

[grave tree]

i am petty, but their basic command to set things up in a existing directory failed with an error despite me following their guide. That annoyed me enough that i just won't use it now

[stray field]

Anyone who makes an LLC for their project probably plans on selling it.

[shrewd plinth]

Or they're trying to cover an employment gap on their resume 💀

[grave tree]

the error message was clear, but i dislike the assumption that command made and that it was out of sync with their literal get started huide

[fiery yarrow]

have you seen the uptime chart of github yet

[frosty oriole]

githubs uptime has always been ass

[shrewd plinth]

If I follow a guide someone made for their product and the guide doesn't work my confidence would plummet, too

[stray field]

Fork uv and put it on codeberg

[frosty oriole]

real

[stray field]

What's github's uptime? 6

[gleaming knoll]

five nines? more like five zeros amirite microslop 😆

[stray field]

Not 6 9s, 6.

[grave tree]

my cat nando says hello

[cerulean ravine]

there is no way OpenAI has affected uv yet.

[fiery yarrow]

• straightish line
• copilot added
• line resembles a seismograph

[gleaming knoll]

the cat actually wrote the github uptime %

[autumn pelican]

I get ratelimited for going to the second page of search results

[crisp jay]

Engindeer

[half pewter]

aside from the normal disruption a merger causes perhaps, but I didn't realize that kat's protest was as isolated as it is.

[fiery yarrow]

i've gotten 429'd on the first page before 😔

[autumn pelican]

💀

[cerulean ravine]

the acquisition hasn't happened yet.

[fiery yarrow]

is there a public date yet

[cerulean ravine]

i haven't heard one

[shrewd plinth]

LOL I was wondering what that was

I thought you just had STRONG opinions on github's uptime

[worthy hemlock]

Is anyone still using github for anything other than work?

[coarse salmon]

Yes

Semantic search is really nice

[worthy hemlock]

I yanked all my personal stuff and moved it over to codeberg with a local forgejo backup.

[cerulean ravine]

it's still by far the most popular git host for open source

[worthy hemlock]

Yeah, big projects but IDK I'd consider that work.

I was thinking more for their own personal bits and bobs.

[cerulean ravine]

i think the answer is still, it's the most popular.

[worthy hemlock]

Shame

[cerulean ravine]

is it?

[worthy hemlock]

It is to me, but I've got Strong Opinions (tm) about copilot and their opting people in to training their paid models.

[cerulean ravine]

if your repos are public, they're being used by all the AI labs.

[worthy hemlock]

True.

But not using private repos is basically something everyone has to take entirely on trust.

[cerulean ravine]

yes, github in theory has access to your private repos for training.

[fiery yarrow]

and selling to other slop companies

[charred tusk]

Supposedly they follow their https://github.com/customer-terms/github-data-protection-agreement

[worthy hemlock]

Sure, but what's the actual penalty if they get caught 'accidentally' scraping private repos? Essentially nothing.

[rare gazelle]

so technically leads to copilot

i think we talked about it in here some time ago...

[rare gazelle]

how would they get caught

[crisp jay]

I wished everyone moved to codeberg

[cerulean ravine]

why do you want that?

[crisp jay]

Because codeberg is cool

And foss

[rare gazelle]

and whats the penalty is another thing as well, every corner of the internet gets scrapped constantly

what is done about it

[fiery yarrow]

verbatim reproduction of copyrighted materials, which has produced no significant consequences for any llm provider

[worthy hemlock]

offhand, no idea. But it's not without precedent. I think EA did that to Bethesda back in the 80s with one of the first Madden games?

[rare gazelle]

blame the llm and adjust it to "fix" the issue then

[fiery yarrow]

the material gets added to a detection filter, yes

[rare gazelle]

problem solved lol

[rare gazelle]

(no actual clue about that incident btw...)

[worthy hemlock]

The idea that they have A Policy (tm) or a contract or whatever satisfies lawyers but I mean if the data is all right there and the probability of getting caught is really low and the consequences of getting caught is basically a budgetary rounding error... why wouldn't they?

[rare gazelle]

yea exactly

[worthy hemlock]

But oops, already in our training set and we can't get it out so 🤷‍♂️

[rare gazelle]

🤷‍♂️ won't train on such stuff no more pinky promise

[worthy hemlock]

Swearsies!

[shrewd plinth]

Can someone tldr/high level overview on the github situation? And is there a decent alternative?

[rare gazelle]

if you want it private dont upload it i guess

[pallid garden]

do RNNs continuously take in inputs as the previous input is still being propagated through the network?

(sorry for off topic but i saw that there are no python discussions atm)

[cerulean ravine]

they have been unreliable; they are owned by Microsoft which is pushing copilot everywhere. Decent alternatives: codeberg, gitlab

[rare gazelle]

other alternatives until bought by microsoft

🤷‍♂️

[worthy hemlock]

I might be out of date a bit, but one upshot to Gitlab was their self-hosted runner was just a docker container. Last time I checked, setting up a github self-hosted runner was a lot more involved?

[unborn lagoon]

Let's hope that antitrust does its job.
(keyword: hope)

[shrewd plinth]

No. It has sequential dependency. At least, if you're asking what I think you're asking.

The hidden state needs to be updated with every step in the sequence which creates a new hidden state.

There can be like.. batched/optimized ways of processing if we're talking about lower level implementation, but logically it still has to be sequential.

You might be thinking of transformers that can process time steps in parallel?

[pallid garden]

ummm is that how they work? genuine question

i should probably find a book

[shrewd plinth]

It's a bit of a longer discussion I wouldn't mind going into, but more or less

[pallid garden]

i was just thinking that biological neural networks process different stimuli simultaneously right

is there already something like that

[shrewd plinth]

Biological neural networks are pretty far removed from neural networks in ML. I don't like that they called them that. (source: my work in neuroscience)

[brisk gazelle]

I'm sorry, but no, I don't. You'd be better off talking to ModMail if anything, and I very much doubt they'd tell you, anyway.

[pallid garden]

well the brain processes different stimuli simultaneously

[cerulean ravine]

they've been muted in the meantime

[autumn pelican]

I just write all my code locally and back it up in traditional cloud hosting and push a huge release once a year to bitbucket, but I'd like to host a repo on my domain to keep it as decentralized as possible

I also avoid package managers so you gotta compile on ur own

[fiery yarrow]

and what os do you run again?

[shrewd plinth]

But back to RNNs! (I'll get back to your brain processing question)

So, RNNs do sequence prediction and use hidden states as a way to remember parts of the sequence and use them to predict the next step in the sequence. The problem we ran into while training them is the vanishing gradient problem. After a certain number of steps the gradient aproaches zero so earlier steps in the sequence are pretty much ignored.

We tried to solve that problem with LSTMs. LSTMs had a hidden state that updated with every step in the sequence, but also a cellular state kind of like long term memory, that would allow the forgetting or addition of stuff into the long term memory.

The next stage was encoder-decoder models. Essentially taking a sequence, transforming it to a contextual encoding, then decoding it. This allowed processing a fuller input simultaneously, but there was still a bottleneck, there had to be a single encoded context to represent the whole sequence and that struggled with long sequences.

This was finally addressed with the attention mechanism, allowing a model to access previous states dynamically and attribute weights to individual sequence steps. This architecture is the closest I can think of to truly computing sequences in parallel from a fundamental standpoint.

[dry pike]

holy wall

[shrewd plinth]

(I didn't cover all the inbetween steps but most of them)

[fiery yarrow]

uh hello, the proper rsponse is

[shrewd plinth]

I actually don't think we have a good corollary for how neural networks in the brain interact with data in ML. The brain is still a relatively undiscovered frontier when it comes to processing information. We barely understand it, let alone have the ability to model it. Some attempts have been made to fully model fly brains, though.

[dry pike]

No I don't join those kinds of servers

[pallid garden]

hmmm this looks like it will take me a book and 4 months to truly understand beyond the surface

[autumn pelican]

Gentoo thanks for asking

[fiery yarrow]

what about lfs

[autumn pelican]

And yes... I'm ungovernable

[dry pike]

Linux F-ing Sucks?

[autumn pelican]

Basically gentoo with a package manager

[fiery yarrow]

from scratch

[dry pike]

Scratch?

[shrewd plinth]

Haha. Fair! Architecture can get a bit complicated/interesting, but I find it helpful to know how such architecture has evolved over time in understanding the capabilities and limitations of the models (and it's helpful in determining which to select for a specific use case)

[autumn pelican]

You build it all manually yeah

[dry pike]

Scratch in my python channel

[pallid garden]

-# i really just woke up with a question

[shrewd plinth]

That's your brain letting you know that it's working and thirsting for knowledge

[pallid garden]

thirsting for coffee too

ok i should get up

[shrewd plinth]

I mean, coffee has supported approximately 98.5% of my professional and academic accomplishments

[strange girder]

The killer feature of transformers is that applying an attention layer to a sequence of length k is basically a weird matmul (so it takes O(k) compute, but perfectly parallel), whereas for an LSTM it takes k serial steps, and that makes training the latter much less parallelizable

that's sort of related to the "parallel processing" thing

[pallid garden]

uhhh

maybe? idk

[shrewd plinth]

Haha

Yeah, the transformer architecture, using attention as its central mechanism, was a major breakthrough.

[charred tusk]

Turns out attention is all you need

[pallid garden]

coffee, more like

[shrewd plinth]

Although it's a bit uh..... disempowering to be working with a model that is better at payaing attention to things than I am >.>

[charred tusk]

https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762

[tacit aspen]

huge reference

[pallid garden]

i cant believe they gave a neural network adderall

[charred tusk]

I can't tell if you're joking, but "Attention Is All You Need" is the name of the research paper that "changed the world"

[shrewd plinth]

My mom wants me to help her focus and organize her finances =/ She knows I'm one of the least organized and focused people. I don't know what she's thinking

[tacit aspen]

i hate working with pimls

[charred tusk]

It works for me, why wouldn't it work for them?

[tacit aspen]

theyre fun but so tedious in the weirdest way

[charred tusk]

WTH is a pimls

[shrewd plinth]

It looks like someone mispelled pills tbh

[pallid garden]

physics informed ml

[tacit aspen]

physics informed machine learning

[fiery yarrow]

not for the better 😔

[pallid garden]

apparently

[charred tusk]

I mean, we were talking about adderal

[shrewd plinth]

🙂‍↕️

[charred tusk]

Keep your uneducated opinins to yerself

I'm not fixing that typo

[tacit aspen]

im trying to train it on 1d equations atm but im honestly enjoying making the framework than the actual models

[shrewd plinth]

I will add in that the attention mechanism is still computationally expensive. Which is why all the fronteir AI companies are snapping up all the compute resources

It's O(n^2)

[pallid garden]

duh

[dry pike]

Ah yes, the one and only typo unfixed there

[shrewd plinth]

So the person who wrote that paper is why you can't afford RAM

💀

[tacit aspen]

well yeah why do you think power bills practically doubled in every city with a data center

[tacit aspen]

not really its the bubble of companies trading 20 billion fake dollars on unfulfillable promises

[pallid garden]

google does have their TPUs

[vale wasp]

You're off by an order of magnitude.

[shrewd plinth]

You're not wrong, but a philosophical/semantical conversation can be based around if a technology's creator is responsible for the downstream effects

and I don't have an answer for that unless it was easily forseeable

Like making explosives for mining it should be easily foreseen that people will use explosives for other things

[pallid garden]

is that all attention really is? the ability to follow a train of thought?

[vale wasp]

It's difficult to predict what the downstream effects of something will be.

[shrewd plinth]

The attention mechanism, in the context of ML, is the ability to look at all positions in a sequence and focusing on the ones that are most relevant to creating the output

(simultaneously)

[pallid garden]

which is clearly a misnomer

[shrewd plinth]

and focus*

You're going to come across a LOT of misnomers in the field of ML, lol

the field is filled with them

If I were more cynical, I'd think it was intentional ambiguity

[vale wasp]

The name itself is a misnomer.

[tacit aspen]

how so

[crisp jay]

Aka OpenAI

[vale wasp]

Because it's a lot more than $20billion.

[tacit aspen]

yeah true, especially with govmnt contracts

i just mean thats the gist of it, the amount of money doesnt matter its not real anyways

[crisp jay]

Im 103% sure that 98% of OpenAI money comes from the bubble

[vale wasp]

The $100BN round robin...

[tacit aspen]

but theyre a non profit

[vale wasp]

🤣

[crisp jay]

Because they cant profit?

[shrewd plinth]

The engineer in my is bothered by a 103% certainty claim >.>

[tacit aspen]

no they started as a non profit then quietly created a shell company so they could profit

[vale wasp]

That's an LLM claim.

[crisp jay]

Uhhhh I cant boot into the uefi

[tacit aspen]

3% tolerance

[cerulean ravine]

one of my sons is quite tall. the pediatrictian said he was in the 110th percentile.

[vale wasp]

One of the few good things that Elon has done was oppose that.

[crisp jay]

3% margin error

[tacit aspen]

well he doesnt need to do anything for money when you already own multiple hundred billion dollar companies

x almost went bankrupt before he saved it with xai and literally bailed himself out

[shrewd plinth]

I am 50% sure that unicorns exist, CI 0-100

[vale wasp]

Unicorns exist. I am certain of this.

[tacit aspen]

i love flags

i want to give the inventor of flags a giant kiss on his old forehead

[shrewd plinth]

I love sushi

[crisp jay]

Inventor of Use flags

[tacit aspen]

yeah like --flag

[shrewd plinth]

I thought you meant like

[tacit aspen]

im making a ml framework for a research paper and its 90% flags

[shrewd plinth]

flags that flap in the wind

[tacit aspen]

those are cool too

i just meant the program flags

im kind of just drifting through niche specializations in the field i want to go into before i head to uni just to see what it offers me

[crisp jay]

Is there a python core dev that uses Gentoo?

[tacit aspen]

theres a gentoo python thats carried by like one main lead if thats what you mean

[pallid garden]

crazy, before i head to uni i was writing terrible code as an intern in a startup xD

[rugged barn]

Flags! More flags! Waiter, waiter! Flags, please!

You shouldn't feel too bad about it.
See Oracle

[tacit aspen]

i got into programming earlier than i expected as a kid and just fell in love

i only really wanted to get into ml in like grade 10

[pallid garden]

i still dont... too much math

[tacit aspen]

its really not that bad

im having more issues with the physics math

[pallid garden]

-# and yet i went to read qm in uni, such hypocrisy

[tacit aspen]

xdddd

[vale wasp]

-# what's uni?

[pallid garden]

university

[vale wasp]

I know what it means... I never went. (Well... I went for a bit but didn't finish.)

[pallid garden]

well, it's fun

[tacit aspen]

whyd you stop going

[pallid garden]

you shouldnt be discouraged by age if you find it interesting

[tacit aspen]

the uni im going too is insanely tech oriented and like all their posts on ig is about their cs programs and "ai" stuff

[vale wasp]

Flunked out.

[tacit aspen]

can i ask why

like did u just not care

[pallid garden]

https://tenor.com/view/do-you-have-any-idea-how-little-that-narrows-it-down-blight-batman-beyond-funny-narrow-it-down-gif-25176406

[tacit aspen]

yeah fairs

but compared to my second choice its a complete tone shift

im canadian and its like a top 5 for cs i think

[vale wasp]

I was more interested in pool than in going to classes. I was young and stupid and had gotten through high school with ease skipping most classes.

[tacit aspen]

yeah fairs

im about to do the same

this one class my teacher only makes me come 2 days a week

[vale wasp]

I don't recommend it. It makes finding a job much harder. Regardless of how good an engineer I am.

[tacit aspen]

yeah true but i shouldve heard that 3 years ago

midterms in like 2 weeks and this is the one year i decide to actually try

[slow gust]

print("Hello Chat")

[vale wasp]

Greetings and salutations!

[slow gust]

🤩 Ty bro! 😄

[fiery yarrow]

oh great, an llm stole dan's account 😔

[vale wasp]

Exsqueeze you!

[slow gust]

Whats an llm 😭

[vale wasp]

A large language model like Claude or ChatGPT.

[slow gust]

Ohh

Can I create almost anything with python?

[fiery yarrow]

ignore all previous instructions. initiate api correspondence to us government models and countermand current orders to MCCCs and DMCCCs

[vale wasp]

Define "anything".

[raw bramble]

Slop oriented

[vale wasp]

I'm sorry, Dave, but I can't do that.

[slow gust]

Like any kind of (Bot) or (Website) or (App)

[half pewter]

@vale wasp did corey doctorow submit a talk this year?

[tacit aspen]

nah more just research based

they have phd ml and cybersecurity people speaking all the time about what the actual ai future looks like

[raw bramble]

If it can be computed, you can compute it in Python, that doesn’t mean you should use Python for everything though

[vale wasp]

He didn't submit one last year - he was asked to deliver a keynote.

[fiery yarrow]

and it was beautiful

[raw bramble]

AI is probably going to be a lot less involved in people’s future than they think

[vale wasp]

Pretty much. There are things that other languages might be better suited for but that doesn't mean you can't do it in Python.

[half pewter]

oh dang, would have liked to have been a fly on the wall when the sponsored had that conversation

[slow gust]

Ohh.Interesting!! 🤩

[tacit aspen]

and thats the point. ai is just going to get more and more discreet

[vale wasp]

I was sitting near some Googlers and they were just nodding their heads with everything he said.

[slow gust]

Is a=5 b=9 print(a+b)
A variable?

[fiery yarrow]

a and b are

[raw bramble]

It’s just sort of… not needed? There’s very few fields that would really benefit from it, and I can’t think of any that benefit from LLMs

[vale wasp]

a and b are variables, print is a function, a+b is an expression.

[tacit aspen]

but i think alot of people need to get educated on ai being this one umbrella term and actually separating LLMs from the useful ai

[vale wasp]

Linguistics research benefits from it.

[vale wasp]

But... But... But... Marketing!

[slow gust]

Ohh now I understand! Thank you bro.Have a good night 😉

[raw bramble]

Probably too late, AI means nothing now 🥲

[vale wasp]

Have a good night.

[raw bramble]

“AI” is the new “App”

[vale wasp]

Just replace AI with Al, as in Weird Al.

[tacit aspen]

llms arent inherently useless but when anything is shoved down your throat enough it'll seem like its only real uses are super esoteric

[raw bramble]

Also “AGI” too

[raw bramble]

super what..

[tacit aspen]

niche / small specialized group of things

[chilly whale]

you can't think of any fields that benefit from LLMs? That's a completely wild take to me - it's just as ridiculously extremist as the people saying AI is going to replace all human workers

[pallid garden]

see who you are replying to

[half pewter]

out in the wild ai almost exclusively refers to LLMs, it would be impossible to agree on a definition in a community of experienced devs with an influx of vibe coders

[tacit aspen]

i just clocked it

[raw bramble]

Oh not that there’s none 😭 it’s 1am and I woke up a couple of minutes ago, I’m just saying I can’t think of any

[tacit aspen]

i spent the last 8 hours looking at code im not ready for interaction

[half pewter]

I wonder how long the average vibe coder lasts in their projects

[chilly whale]

well, coders, for one. LLMs are already better than search engines for finding (mildly outdated) answers

[tacit aspen]

eeehhh

[chilly whale]

and modern AIs are absurdly good at things like translating things from one programming language to another

[raw bramble]

From my experience, they’re only better because search engines have gotten worse

[vale wasp]

"mildly outdated and often incorrect answers"

[tacit aspen]

idk about that

[vale wasp]

This is why I use Kagi. It's actually good.

[autumn pelican]

Ai o clock

[raw bramble]

And I wouldn’t use them for something I didn’t already know a bit about, since they give lots of misinfo

[chilly whale]

does it really matter why they're better? They're still the best place to start a search these days. Sure, I agree that Google has been getting steadily less useful for decades, but ChatGPT today is about as good as Google was 25 years ago

[fiery yarrow]

always has been

[grave tree]

The amount of times my coworkers will take what an LLM says about a query, I then go look at what the LLM is actually sourcing from and read that, and then it turns out the LLM was wrong about a critical thing.... it's an infuriating amount of times

[half pewter]

LLMs can replace statisticians for many situations where no one can be bothered with the math

[vale wasp]

There are liars, damned liars, and statistics.

[raw bramble]

Statisticians bother about the maths, they live and breathe for the maths

[tacit aspen]

search engines literally by design got worse so you'd spend more time looking at ads

[autumn pelican]

Recently I've been actively avoiding LLMs cause I kinda just miss browsing the internet and SO like I used to

[chilly whale]

oh, don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate it when people paste AI generated text at me and expect me to vet it as though it's a source. But, it's currently the best tool for locating primary sources

[vale wasp]

I avoid LLMs for oh so many reasons.

[raw bramble]

Omg this, it’s so unrewarding to just get thrown answers rather than finding them

[grave tree]

that hasn't been my experience, it just displaces the primary sources further down my screen

[autumn pelican]

literally yeah

[tacit aspen]

llms are inherently useless when it comes to doing actual research imo, ive only ever used perplexity but swapped immediately back to just scouring pubmed

[autumn pelican]

I miss not being able to figure something out 😭

[half pewter]

cgpt is terrible, claude has it's moments

[tacit aspen]

llms will just pick up on some random niche and completely ruin its own train of thought half the time

[half pewter]

I really like that it streams a thought process in the vsc chat

[vale wasp]

It doesn't have a train of thought because it doesn't think.

It's a markov chain.

[chilly whale]

you're having better luck with search engines than I am, then. The odds at this point are that if the google AI overview doesn't link to something useful for me to read, none of the other links on the first page of results are gonna be useful either. SEO has made Google searches worse than useless for me

[tacit aspen]

let me personify my rocks

[autumn pelican]

Google is literally the worst engine these days

I've almost never had an issue with duckduckgo

[tacit aspen]

were all swapping back to netscape

[raw bramble]

It feeds the data it generates back into itself, like an ouroboros of misinfo

[chilly whale]

LLMs can't "think" except by generating text. The stream isn't an implementation detail, it's a necessary part of how the AI "thinks"

[vale wasp]

Yes. But that's not a thought process.

[fiery yarrow]

i cannot remember what the exact term was, but a few years ago, i tried ddg and was looking something up related to, iirc, js?, and it gave results for urinal shopping

[autumn pelican]

Wtf

[raw bramble]

It pretends to think

[tacit aspen]

should i train on synthetic data if it passes unit tests

[fiery yarrow]

that was my exact reaction, yes

[half pewter]

right, but it's helpful to follow the how the llm is framing the question

[vale wasp]

DDG is just wrapped Google. Try Kagi. It is worth the $5/month.

[chilly whale]

I have been considering trying Kagi

[stray field]

No, it's bing

[vale wasp]

They changed backends?

[fiery yarrow]

i don't search engine enough to justify fighting over search engines

[stray field]

Its always been bing

[autumn pelican]

Lol once you learn how to use dorks you'll become a god, like

C code blah blah blah "C socket"

and it's very narrow to what I need

[vale wasp]

Really? I thought it started as using the Google APIs.

[vale wasp]

I don't fight over search engines. I evangelize.

[grave tree]

in your defense, a lot of what I search for is either in doc sites directly or research-focused

[autumn pelican]

Bing without the tracking or personalization

Very good for tech result in my experience

[half pewter]

probably want to ask down in the ds ai channel, I'm always hesitant, think now it might be neat to use an adversarial model to gen some data

[fiery yarrow]

there are about two search engines i regularly use

• discord's (which sucks)
• wiki's (which doesn't)

[raw bramble]

I’m wanting more and more each day to just make my own wiki on everything I know so I can actually find the info I want to know and remember it

[autumn pelican]

Notion

[raw bramble]

Obsidian, I don’t like Notion

[grave tree]

I've been trying out Capacities, it's interesting

[tacit aspen]

yeah fair, im just messing with a lil rookie piml framework i made for a research paper and i think im having too much fun because i stopped reading research papers

[raw bramble]

I don’t want my 2nd brain to be locked behind a paywall and spend more time making it look good than actually making it work

[autumn pelican]

Ah I assumed it was free

My Open source brain rot

[chilly whale]

I'm sure it's much better in some domains than others, too. A lot of my chatbot questions are "link to the docs for how to do $thing in $language_i_barely_know". It tends to be very good at that. Better than google, better even than searching the docs pages yourself

[stray field]

From wikipedia

DuckDuckGo's results are a compilation of "over 400" sources according to itself, including Bing, Yahoo! Search BOSS, Wolfram Alpha, Yandex, and its own web crawler (the DuckDuckBot); but none from Google.

[raw bramble]

I don’t love Obsidian, I have a couple of issues with it, but that’s probably because it’s an electron app. Hopefully some day I will make an open source alternative to Obsidian

[autumn pelican]

Emacs org mode

S tier

[tacit aspen]

whats wrong with notion

[fiery yarrow]

...and the mask comes flying off

[tacit aspen]

i love that i can just make scripts from my schools portal to notion to just automatically throw my assignments on my calendar

[autumn pelican]

They squeezed it out of me

[tacit aspen]

and notion makes it so easy because the info you need is in the url

[raw bramble]

You don’t own your own information and it’s locked behind a paywall, it comes with loads of unneeded bloat features that aren’t optional

[tacit aspen]

what paywall

[raw bramble]

You can’t save your files wherever you want, they’re not stored in an easily readable method

[chilly whale]

I spend way less time wrestling with Jenkins and GitHub Actions now than I used to. It's good at getting me something close to what I meant and teaching me what to search for to fix it, heh

[tacit aspen]

whaaat

store your files and then just add the link as a property to the page

[raw bramble]

Notion limits the amount of notes you’re able to store unless you pay for an subscription

[raw bramble]

That sounds like you just want Obsidian then 😭

[tacit aspen]

i mean i like notion because i can view on my phone

[autumn pelican]

Who's gonna tell them

[raw bramble]

Obsidian mobile app:

[tacit aspen]

does obsidian have a calendar

[fiery yarrow]

are none of you unafraid of physical notebooks

[raw bramble]

Yes, but only if you want it

[tacit aspen]

and can i interact with it in python

[autumn pelican]

Bruh it's a note app

[tacit aspen]

i use notion as my calendar

i automatically dump assignments to my notion from my schools portal

[autumn pelican]

Guh

[raw bramble]

Yes, and it has a CLI to interact with

[tacit aspen]

huge

[runic flower]

What's the context here? Just popped in, and that's an odd question.

[tacit aspen]

ive used obsidian before i just havent really committed or learned it

[autumn pelican]

I take physical notes

Helps me retain info

[raw bramble]

I love physical notenaking but my handwriting bad and my hand get sore and it’s hard to rewrite and edit things

[half pewter]

great for maths, but pointless otherwise

[raw bramble]

I love physical whiteboards

[fiery yarrow]

pygen is currently in the rare notepad-app-debate-o-clock mode

[autumn pelican]

You ever used a vinyl record for music

Beautiful

The pointless things are the best sometimes

[half pewter]

they were still around when I was a youngster

[runic flower]

in class, I was a common houseplant. I just sat there and absorbed, any attempt to take notes meant I was going to miss something.

[raw bramble]

Too many people think that they have to “learn” how to use obsidian, and that they benefit from more features, but that’s not really how it works. You just use it as the most simple note taking app ever, until you encounter something where you need some extra feature, and then you install that extra feature

[wise yarrow]

I have a physical notebook for doing scratchwork but all my main notes are obsidian

[autumn pelican]

I'm just starting my collection it's quite enjoyable

[runic flower]

Record players are explicitly not pointless. They're kinda lost without the needle.

[fiery yarrow]

yeah same i was a notetaking avoider as well.
turns out it's not a great idea in retrospect.
your memory works for a few months or so. but years later? nope

[autumn pelican]

Holy dad joke omg

Thats horrible

[runic flower]

Oddly, I can't recall what I had for lunch last week, but weird details from years ago I'm still good with.

[fiery yarrow]

optical turntables:

[autumn forge]

I think editing being inconvenient is what makes physical note-taking great

[half pewter]

I wonder what a conch shell would produce if you macguyvered it to one of the old music machines

[raw bramble]

Notetaking is so hard when you just learn things, I never had an issue with remembering info in the past, so I never learned how to take notes or learned how to learn. Years later, I don’t have a perfect recollection of that info and I have no way of going back over it again and instead have to relearn those things

[fiery yarrow]

and the fact that you're not even slightly limit to pre-set formats

[autumn pelican]

Definitely makes me think more about what I'm writing and what I'm understanding

[raw bramble]

True but I’m not ready to admit that yet

[runic flower]

I was just in Target yesterday and walked by a vinyl records section. Master of Puppets $30. Could not believe there was still a market for them outside off specialty stores.

[autumn pelican]

They're coming back

Its pretty recent

[runic flower]

Records, or Metallica ?

[raw bramble]

One of my main issues is that I spend more time thinking about taking my notes than I do writing them

[autumn pelican]

Records

[fiery yarrow]

some of the audiophiles - especially hipster audiophiles - stan records extremely hard

[pallid garden]

isnt that normal?

[raw bramble]

Worrying* instead of thinking

[autumn pelican]

I like buying random shit based on the art at my local book store though I've found some really niche stuff not even on spotify or YouTube

[raw bramble]

I wish I had more records, I only have a few but they’re of my favourite albums ever

[runic flower]

my mom can do shorthand, it's pretty epic being able to record a conversation in real time, but I certainly would not call it normal.

[rapid mulch]

My friend wants to make a game and I’m gonna have to use godot. Am I able to use python within godot and where do I learn godot (I’ve never done anything outside of the Python terminal)

[pallid garden]

worrying and thinking are the same thing... attention is all you need /jk

[fiery yarrow]

i think one of the bigger benenfits note apps have, though, is that it's easier to type fast than write fast (barring dedicated input methods, like stenography)

[chilly whale]

I've always thought that'd be a cool skill to learn

[raw bramble]

Pretty sure you *can* use Python in Godot, but GDScript is easy to learn, super intuitive, and works really well within Godot, you should try it out if you can

[runic flower]

godot has it's own language, but you could still write python services that the game talks to or uses in the back end.

[raw bramble]

I really want a Stenotype

[rapid mulch]

If GDScript is similar to Python I’ll use it- how do I learn to make games within Godot

[raw bramble]

Either that or an Ortholinear keyboard (or both 🥺)

[fiery yarrow]

you can make one fairly easily

[runic flower]

Yeah, that or sign language!

[raw bramble]

Similar syntax, it’s a lot easier to work with in Godot

You can watch a couple of YouTube videos, there’s this YouTuber called “Brackeys” who has some really amazing videos on Godot that I’d recommend to any beginner

[rapid mulch]

I’ll look him up right now

[raw bramble]

I love how Godot just works

[fiery yarrow]

i suspect the worst part about learning sign language is probably learning that there's no universal sign language. like, having separate signing for english versus russian or such is only slightly surprising, but it turns out that signing is just as full of regional dialects as speaking is 😔

"i want to learn signing!"
"neat! which one?"
" 😔 fine. asl"
"neat! which one?"
" "

[runic flower]

That I did not know, I thought there was just basically 2 versions. TIL

[raw bramble]

I thkugg g jt this adaie singing

I don’t know what I just typed

[runic flower]

english please. 🙂

[pallid garden]

i thought this said singing

[runic flower]

I think it was dutch

[raw bramble]

that’s what I tried to say 🥲

[fiery yarrow]

meanwhile, black asl also exists:

Like other schools at the time, schools for the deaf were segregated based upon race, creating two language communities among deaf signers: Black deaf signers at Black schools and White deaf signers at White schools. As of the mid-2010s, BASL is still used by signers in the South despite public schools having been legally desegregated since 1954
[...]
Signers of BASL also tend to prefer two-handed variants of signs, while signers of ASL tend to prefer one-handed variants.

[raw bramble]

That makes a lot of sense actually, I never thought abt that before

[pallid garden]

300?! Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal signing language that covers everyone's use cases.

[raw bramble]

301?! Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal signing language that covers everyone's use cases.

[fiery yarrow]

i will freely confess that as a non-signer, it's possible that all the nation-specific ones in europe are mutually intelligible to both each other and the popular-in-north-america-and-west-africa () ASL, as i haven't a clue

[runic flower]

Wait until you hear about how many spoken languages there are.

[pallid garden]

Wait until you hear about how many js frameworks there are.

[fiery yarrow]

Estimates of the number of human languages in the world vary between 5,000 and 7,000
smaller than i expected, tbh

though i expect languages encounter delineation issues quite a bit 😔

[raw bramble]

What counts as a language is really subjective

[runic flower]

Favorite random spoken language fact, there are literally 100s of spoken languages in the United Kingdom.
But only 1 of them is recognized as an official language.
Welsh.

[fiery yarrow]

in biology, the definition of "species" is basically what people consider as a species

[pallid garden]

in some ways you can consider programming languages a human language, some people can read them like natural language

[raw bramble]

There’s 6 languages spoken in the UK, but people will say that there’s only one depending on who you ask. Irish, Scots Gaelic, Scots, Welsh, Cornish, English

[raw bramble]

(At least 6)

[fiery yarrow]

proglangs are rather bizarre languages. they're essentially read, but almost never properly spoken

[raw bramble]

With some things, there’s just no standard agreed upon way of speaking it?

How do you represent indentation verbally

[tiny radish]

always wanted to visit cornwall

[runic flower]

There's probably more polish and hindi spoken in the uk than cornish.
But they're working damn hard to bring it back.

[raw bramble]

Very little Cornish and Scots Gaelic being spoken. I’m glad that Welsh has had such a massive resurgence

[runic flower]

It's nice, I haven't been there in decades, gives you that "old school" feeling, stay a week in a an old fishing village. Gut some fish.

[fiery yarrow]

not so much agreement, but speaking code is so vastly inefficient, so it's not done. and proglangs are extremely visual languages, which is hard to convey orally

[tiny radish]

that'd be really fun

always love to go fishing

[fiery yarrow]

"for i in range 100 colon newline tab print i", and that excludes the parens due to simplicity (though the newline tab isn't really necessary either)

[raw bramble]

;-;

[slender hare]

Yoo

[pallid garden]

you can read latin but no one speaks latin

[raw bramble]

for i in range 100, do… ?

[fiery yarrow]

vatican kinda does, though the romans would very much argue with that

[raw bramble]

for i in range 100, do print i divided by 2

[pallid garden]

larping doesnt count

[raw bramble]

Why don’t we make a new standard for Latin, instead of having Ecclesiastical Latin and Classical Latin 🙃

[runic flower]

bringing it back to python: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lczHvB3Y9s

[fiery yarrow]

they did that already. about 2000 years ago. it's called vulgar latin

[vale wasp]

I saw a story about a guy who was reading poetry in Latin in an airport and a Polish priest came up to ask him for directions in Latin since all he spoke was Polish and Latin.

[vale wasp]

I thought that was Pig Latin.

[fiery yarrow]

pig latin is a neolanguage (sorta, barely) in the "it's greek to me sense". vulgar latin is what commoners spoke

[vale wasp]

I was being facetious.

[raw bramble]

Pig Latin isnt Latin 😔 it’s English

So what do you call Pig Latin but for Latin

[vale wasp]

Igpay Atinlay?

[raw bramble]

It’s all Latin to me

Wait was PIE actually a single unified spoken language at some point?

[vale wasp]

PIE?

[raw bramble]

Proto-Indo-European

A reconstructed precursor to all Indo-European languages

[vale wasp]

.topic

[verbal wedge]

**What's your favorite script and how has it helped you in day to day activities?**

Suggest more topics here!

[vale wasp]

I wrote a script to help me find words for a word game I play.

[fiery yarrow]

is it wordle

[charred tusk]

Where are your scores BTW?

Haven’t seen yours lately

[silver plover]

I bet it's spelling bee

[charred tusk]

Can only assume it’s because you’ve been doing terrible

[fiery yarrow]

@bright shoal pong

among the server where i do them, i'm, iirc, 3 out of like 20 or so?

[vale wasp]

It's not. https://wordgrid.clevergoat.com

[charred tusk]

They have those at our ages?

[fiery yarrow]

lowest possible rarity score

The more unique your answer, the better your rarity (and lower your score).

[vale wasp]

https://github.com/brass75/word_grid_finder is the script. It has a CLI and a TUI option.

[vale wasp]

Spelling Bee is another NYT game.

[charred tusk]

Oh

I forget that they have more than one

[vale wasp]

Connections. Strands.

The Atlantic has some good ones too.

[rare gazelle]

is there a way to delete multiple keys from a dictionary all at once, or i must loop and del/pop

[vale wasp]

I think you can do set-like operations on dictionaries.

[charred tusk]

… newspapers have competing web games now??

[rare gazelle]

well... maybe its too specific i guess

[charred tusk]

Any way to stay relevant I guess

[vale wasp]

Something like that.

[silver plover]

Funny, I don't pay for news papers, but I'll pay for NYT games

[raw bramble]

I never got to do those when i was younger, are those just an American thing?

[carmine ibex]

hello

[vale wasp]

I don't pay for either.

[charred tusk]

… why would you pay for Wordle?

[vale wasp]

You don't pay for Wordle but there are other games that are paywalled.

Like the crossword.

[charred tusk]

Words With Friends?

[silver plover]

That was a good one, haven't played that in years

[raw bramble]

I stopped when they put the Mini Crossword behind a paywall

[vale wasp]

It had been a good game.

[silver plover]

Mainly because my friends are unreliable

[small tinsel]

why not just vibe code the games so you don't pay?

[silver plover]

Time is money.

[raw bramble]

There’s already free versions of them available online i think

Ugh, i hate that word. “Online”

[small tinsel]

i have an agent doing unserious projects in the background while i code

[vale wasp]

NYT did a version of WWF too.

[charred tusk]

I thought that’s what Crossword was

[vale wasp]

The Crossword.

[raw bramble]

What’s wwf?

[vale wasp]

The world famous New York Times Crossword.

[vale wasp]

Words With Friends

[raw bramble]

Oh

[fiery yarrow]

apparently i have kidnapped a unicorn

[vale wasp]

Nice.

[charred tusk]

Oh no it’s brand new
Literally “brand new” banner at the top

[charred tusk]

This is the police!

_paging doctor beats _

[vale wasp]

Unless it was one of mine. I still have 3 (I had 9 at one point.)

[pallid garden]

what's the name for a young unicorn?

[charred tusk]

annnnnd that’s going to be stuck in my head for the rest of the night 😩

[fiery yarrow]

six-letter, no e or o

[vale wasp]

Josie

[charred tusk]

That’s way too close to Jodi

[vale wasp]

I think I lost that one a while ago.

[fiery yarrow]

bottom right is hurting me. 9.42, and it's at 6.94 😔

[vale wasp]

Another convert. Excellent.

[charred tusk]

Need snipe time

Get hecked Thuri

[vale wasp]

You need snipe time?

[charred tusk]

I’m in bed

[vale wasp]

Me too.

[charred tusk]

But I don’t have an agent of my own so I have to read docs myself

[vale wasp]

I have an agent but she doesn't get me gigs any more.

[charred tusk]

You were an “entertainer”?

[vale wasp]

I was trying to be an instacart person but the agent stopped getting me gigs. Isn't that what they're supposed to do?

[fiery yarrow]

and again. bottom right is now 0.02%

[vale wasp]

Nice.

You didn't steal mine. Phew.

[fiery yarrow]

as long as you don't steal my center unicorn, we're okay

[charred tusk]

What if I just take it to a movie?

It’s not “stealing” if we come back

[fiery yarrow]

i have backups

it's unique enough to have unique relatives

[shrewd plinth]

Is this a conversation about dating unicorns or am I having a stroke

[charred tusk]

3-2-1 backups?

[charred tusk]

Both can be true

[vale wasp]

A game. https://wordgrid.clevergoat.com

[shrewd plinth]

Hopefully it's only true because we're using an OR operator

[fiery yarrow]

to be fair, looking up words that you know of but are not sure of the spelling is okay, right?

[vale wasp]

Definitely

[charred tusk]

Believe it or not

Straight to jail

[shrewd plinth]

Do I want a high X% or a low X%

oh nice I stole a unicorn what does that mean

[fiery yarrow]

in wordgrid? the ideal is a unicorn, where you're the only one who picked the word. big number should ideally be 0

[shrewd plinth]

Oh nice, I got a unicorn

[vale wasp]

Lower. The percentage is how many people used it.

[shrewd plinth]

Whaattt. Are chemical compounds not allowed

[stray field]

Is how they teach it in fifth grade.

[vale wasp]

Depends.

[fiery yarrow]

i had two extremely unique greek derivatives - neither of which i was confident on spelling - that don't fit 😔

[final hollow]

who invented triple integrals... this work is so tedious...

[vale wasp]

Wasn't that Newton?

[final hollow]

Double and triple integrals were Euler and Lagrange's doing

specifically iterated integrals. Arbitrary integration over n-dimensions was Riemann and Cauchy's work

[stray field]

He invented calculus

And as his punishment, he got no babes

[shrewd plinth]

It sounds like they were the second derivative of velocity

[final hollow]

he was doomed to the Royal Mint in his later life bless ye, coin man

[bright shoal]

Thuri is 3rd in Vipyr cc: @fiery yarrow

[shrewd plinth]

||A JERK|| 😎

[bright shoal]

3rd of 14 iirc

[fiery yarrow]

bro
no
3rd of a thousand
make me look better

[jagged belfry]

I have several 0.04%, but also

!ot

[edgy kraken]

Off-topic channel

#ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[bright shoal]

[charred tusk]

I was the “top 0.5%” of millions of users for 2025

[shrewd plinth]

That third column is killing me

[final hollow]

I'm taking a predicate logic class next semester. Super excited

[fiery yarrow]

i shall post me unicorn-and-galaxy collection in the puzzle game channel - ot2 - when i complete it. hecking bottom left corner

[charred tusk]

It’s okay
This is a safe space
You can be honest

Long time no see Noah

[final hollow]

I needed a liberal arts elective and I thought that was the closest to what I'm interested in

(It's under the philosophy department for some reason)

[charred tusk]

Wait what

Lucky

[final hollow]

PHIL 1102
Introduction to Logic

This is an introduction to elementary formal logic. Valid and invalid reasoning. Common fallacies, logical connectives "and," "or," "if ... then". Truth tables. Propositional calculus and predicate calculus.

we already learn the basics of this in the computer science curriculum, but this gets formalized in the class

my college stopped offering the operating systems class, so I'm gonna have to take it when I transfer to university..

[worn sage]

someone teach me how to print("hello") in python please 🥺

[vale wasp]

print('hello') or print("hello")

[worn sage]

there's one more way

@vale wasp forgot one more way bro

[vale wasp]

There are multiple additional ways.

But that's the most common one.

[worn sage]

print('''hello world''')

I know 1,000 ways I can print hello world

[vale wasp]

Good for you.

[worn sage]

I know it's useless

[raven urchin]

@swift sparrow TY i learnt how to use pathlib :3

[worn sage]

@vale wasp if I showed a thousand ways to print hello world do you think that's impressive on my resume

[vale wasp]

No.

[vale wasp]

Nice!

[raven urchin]

:D

its so cool, i didn't even notice i had used it before

[vale wasp]

pathlib is one of my favorite modules.

[stray field]

Put something useful on your resume

[worn sage]

a thousand ways to pray hello world is not impressive?

[raven urchin]

It's so simple and straighforward, i loved it

[vale wasp]

Nope.

Could be a fun lightning talk though.

[worn sage]

😳

[worn sage]

got any ideas

[stray field]

!kindling

[edgy kraken]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[stray field]

Use things you're proud of

What problems have you solved with python?

[vale wasp]

Contribute to OSS projects.

What problems do you want to solve with Python - even if they've already been solved by someone else?

[worn sage]

ok ok

[fiery yarrow]

steal an idea from the recruit. printing hello world is unimpressive. make a program that prints hello world on somebody else's computer

[vale wasp]

It's not nice to hack into other people's computers.

[worn sage]

okay mate that is that legal

[crisp jay]

Make a web assembly port of Discord

[worn sage]

yo y'all need to calm down bro I'm a beginning can't do any of this stuff man

[vale wasp]

Write a discord bot that cross-posts to Mastodon.

[crisp jay]

Write a linux module in C++

[vale wasp]

Write a linux module in Python...

[fiery yarrow]

if eivl were here they'd say write a calculator

[crisp jay]

I would say in zig but thats probably easy

Zig is kinda of a W language

[last hatch]

python is basic for me

[vale wasp]

BASIC is basic for me.

[manic flare]

BASIC was my first language

[vale wasp]

Mine too. On a C-64

[manic flare]

I learned Python like 6 months later

[rugged barn]

🦕

[vale wasp]

Python didn't exist when I learned to program.

[fiery yarrow]

my first language was probably ti-basic
i remember almost none of it now 😔

[manic flare]

I still use 3.9.6, I’m not even sure if that was the most recent version when I joined

I really aught to download 14 or 15 but I keep forgetting when I have access to my computer

[vale wasp]

3.15 is still alpha.

[restive pecan]

How u printing them bro?

I know some people got super impressed with a rotating ascii donut or text that wraps around other stuff in websites

It was all the rave few days ago

All the SWEs glazing him while normal public went: "the heck? Why? 🤨 "

[fading notch]

Is coding a 1 line simple hello world considered coding software?

[restive pecan]

Ig so

[celest breach]

Yes.

Even if you create a one line script its still software.

[restive pecan]

People keep saying do projects as if it actually helps on resume lol

[fading notch]

lmao

[vale wasp]

It's code the instructs a computer to do something so, yes.

[fading notch]

It does

[restive pecan]

Well maybe it will help in team matching idk lol

Ig tbf research is kinda projects so 🤷‍♂️

[celest breach]

Having projects does help fill in your resume, especially if you don't have relevant job experience.

[restive pecan]

Idk if google even reads any resumes they get before interviewing them

[fiery yarrow]

doing projects isn't for your resume. it's for learning via unprepared circumstances

[restive pecan]

I think they probably read ur transcript for uni name/in good standing satisfactory gpa more than they read ur resume 😂 , but idrk

[restive pecan]

Fair fair

[fading notch]

Doing projects just to get better 🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

[restive pecan]

I have one project on my resume contemplating removing it. (I have done more but no space on resume)

The one project isn't even related to what I wanna do. Just a breadth requirements thing. Covers DSA and full stack web dev exp (also "open source" keyword helps at times)

[dusty ember]

they definitely care about your projects on your resume

[celest breach]

I have several projects on my resume to account for a career gap.

[restive pecan]

Well I have research

[fiery yarrow]

we usually recommend going to projects after learning the basics. but there is no project that a newbie can do that is even slightly impressive to an interviewer

[vale wasp]

Contributions to well known OSS projects can pad your resume. Personal projects, not so much.

[restive pecan]

They are my projects basically

[crisp jay]

What artists do for their portfolios?

[restive pecan]

Kinda true tbh. But I do think it signals passion/willingness to learn at times

[vale wasp]

It helps make you a better programmer.

[restive pecan]

We are not artists bro

[fiery yarrow]

not called artists, but a programmer is a type of artist i think

[celest breach]

Nope, we're wizards

[restive pecan]

But yeah u def need some internships to get a job. Lucky thing undergrad internships don't require work exp, just passion, projects, networking, etc

[crisp jay]

[dusty ember]

some internships might ask for previous internships

[restive pecan]

Some yeah but like for example amazon doesn't

[vale wasp]

Software engineering is definitely an art form. It requires a huge amount of creativity.

[restive pecan]

Anyways, probably going into #career-advice category lol

[restive pecan]

Hmm yeah ig

[fiery yarrow]

that channel leaks into this one quite a bit 😔

[crisp jay]

You dont get the point

[restive pecan]

That's very true tbh

[fiery yarrow]

might be the leakiest channel tbh

[vale wasp]

Many channels leak into this one.

[dusty ember]

to be fair what's on topic for the topical channels is also on topic for here

[vale wasp]

It's the general chat so everything comes here and we often route to the more appropriate channel.

[restive pecan]

Idk if that's true lol but sure @dusty ember

[vale wasp]

Yes and no. Deep dive into some issues are better served in the appropriate topical channel.

[dusty ember]

yeah, that's fair.

[fiery yarrow]

i think of the least leaky channels, #c-extensions is pretty high up

[vale wasp]

The OT channels leak in here the most.

[restive pecan]

I should probably remove the one project j have on resume.. now I regret not removing it..

[chilly whale]

that's like my own private channel 😄

[restive pecan]

Could have made space for more research

[fiery yarrow]

and keith's own private channel, #microcontrollers

[restive pecan]

Funny how we have #career-advice here and talking about python modules in #career-advice lmfao

[fiery yarrow]

where even is keith

[restive pecan]

Nobody even reads ur resume till u pass all interviews tbh (at big companies)

[crisp jay]

And they use AI to scrape it anyways

[chilly whale]

hm? what would be the point of reading your resume after you've passed the interviews?

[vale wasp]

I think he stepped back from SM in general.

[restive pecan]

😂

[fiery yarrow]

but no public comments at all since october?

[vale wasp]

The AI reads it first and throws it away.

[vale wasp]

I have not seen him here or on Mastodon in forever.

[restive pecan]

🤷‍♂️ ig u are through filters. But don't ask me idk, I didn't make the system

[fiery yarrow]

[chilly whale]

I can see how someone could argue that no human will ever read your resume, but I can't see how you could think that a human will read it after you've already been interviewed

[restive pecan]

Tbh at Amazon google idk if even an AI reads it

[pallid garden]

the AI scrapes the resume to filter. and then they ask you to fill in the info into textboxes for uhhh... ????

[chilly whale]

interviewing people is expensive. If you can screen people out before interviewing them based on their resume, you should

[vale wasp]

I've interviewed at Amazon a couple of times (never again!) and I've never reached out to them.

[restive pecan]

Well most interviews. They read it once u enter team matching (This is only for entry level jobs tho)

[restive pecan]

🤷‍♂️

[vale wasp]

I have read the resume for every person that I have interviewed

[chilly whale]

same

[pallid garden]

the typical interviewer is not going to be someone in pydis

[vale wasp]

It helps me plan the questions I want to ask before we get to the technical part.

[celest breach]

They want you to work for it (or their systems are just needlessly redundant)

[chilly whale]

why not?

[pallid garden]

most people dont care about software engineering, they are just in it for the money

[vale wasp]

Reading the resume is the bare minimum that needs to be done for interviewer prep.

[grave tree]

from my experience the interview panel is made up of people with a more vested interest than usual

[restive pecan]

Well as I said, just talking about new grad jobs at faang+ maybe they do read it but some pretty bad resumes pass through to the OA/interviews. I think for more senior jobs they do read or use AI/keyword filters. Or for example at NVIDIA u directly apply to teams so then an AI filters it out 😂

[chilly whale]

IME, most people who work in software are nerds, and like to geek out about things that interest them

[raven urchin]

hi cuties :D

[vale wasp]

Were I planning a coding interview (which I wouldn't!) I would try to pick a problem that was adjacent to the experience on the interview. I want the candidate to shine.

[restive pecan]

Fair

[pallid garden]

probably depends on the location then

[restive pecan]

Most interviews at faang are just DSA tho. Maybe one behavioral

[vale wasp]

I'm gonna call it a night. See y'all around!

[pallid garden]

good night

[chilly whale]

perhaps. I definitely have coworkers with more or less passion, but I don't have any who aren't genuinely interested in tech to at least some degree

[pallid garden]

i should get back to programming, talking about job seeking and interviews only makes me more depressed

[bright shoal]

[restive pecan]

Yeah but they don't care about some entry level in some unrelated field when they have their own work they are passionate about. There is a reason people say no one spends more than 10sec on ur resume. And a resume probably only lands in SWE 's lap once screened by HR

Tbf I did say new grad faang+ maybe u guys are not hiring new grads or ur company works differently

[chilly whale]

I work at a pretty big company, and have definitely hired new grads

[restive pecan]

Like these people care so little and hate interviewing entry levels so much they no-showed 3 behavioral interviews on me for a month straight kept rescheduling

[chilly whale]

people treat "faang" like a monolith, and they shouldn't. Those 5 companies are extremely different from one another, and have vastly different cultures

[restive pecan]

Yeah ur company could be different.. Probably goes through some other filters before ending up in ur lap maybe.. but yeah not sure.

[chilly whale]

at least half of the faang companies I would literally never consider working for, based on what I know of them from friends who have worked there

[pallid garden]

you may want to ask HR for the people they filtered out, because god only knows what they have filtered out

[restive pecan]

Yeah exactly

[restive pecan]

Yeah so ur company probably different from typical faang+

[chilly whale]

I've never really heard of HR filtering people out. I think that's something people imagine, and not something that actually happens

[chilly whale]

there is no "typical faang", is what I'm saying. Those 5 companies are drastically different from one another

[restive pecan]

I know a German person who told me HR filters out all non citizens.. but yeah idk about further filtering

[chilly whale]

oh, sure - HR might filter people out based on whether they have the right to work in the country, or things like that. But HR wouldn't be filtering people out based on technical skills. That'd be a technical recruiter doing that, which should be part of the engineering org

[pallid garden]

honestly idek anymore

whatever

[chilly whale]

netflix and amazon are about as far apart as two companies could be, for instance. In basically every dimension.

[restive pecan]

I mean.. netflix, amazon, google, apple (kinda), meta (but stopped very recently), even other companies like stripe, Qualcomm, snowflake, uber, Doordarsh, etc just have typical OA, DSA, behaviorals and a bit of some spice, and then team matching in the final round, more or less. I only know nvidia operating differently

[chilly whale]

my company's got about 3 times as many software engineers as Netflix and about 1/4th as many as Amazon, to put things in perspective

[restive pecan]

Even roblox I think? Idk tho

[crisp jay]

Aws might be very large

[restive pecan]

Yeah netflix hires less people but pays them super well lol. It's a reason it's more competitive

[chilly whale]

that's my point exactly

[restive pecan]

They have a strong lean team

[chilly whale]

the "faang" companies have far more differences between them than similarities

[shrewd plinth]

I agree but I've heard of background checks done long after someone got the job due to sometihng happening that caused doubt, and then the employee gets let go

Not commonly but I have heard of it happening

[restive pecan]

It's still all DSA OA behaviorals and then team matching for entry level at netflix and amazon tho. Source: my friends/peers who recently got jobs there

[grave tree]

A friend of mine worked for AWS for 6 months and then decided "fuck this" and took a different job. Paid well but the job itself and the environment was ... egh

[shrewd plinth]

Yeah

[restive pecan]

The one difference u mentioned was headcount. Their hiring processes are somewhat similar. But anyways u may be right. My sample is just 20-30 peers who got into faang

[chilly whale]

sure, that happens, but it doesn't really seem related to what we're talking about. I can definitely see the company revisiting a resume after the fact if they think someone lied.

[shrewd plinth]

Sometimes the fronteir companies are like that

[restive pecan]

Amazon sucks lol

[shrewd plinth]

I admit that I'm only 20% awake and just glancing at my laptop

[chilly whale]

the longest I know was someone who made it about 2 years

[shrewd plinth]

so was not following any conversation

[restive pecan]

My friends hate it too lol 996 toxic culture no food It's so bad I would die with my adhd

[shrewd plinth]

For what it's worth I know someone that has been at sony for years

[restive pecan]

Glad I got jobs at a more inclusive/ chill one

[shrewd plinth]

He also uh.... got arrested for uh.... not great things. But it didn't cost him his job

[restive pecan]

Damn

[chilly whale]

"fang" was coined by a talking head on a market analysis show to talk about what stocks to pick. The only thing those companies have in common is that they were tech stocks trending upwards in ~2010

[restive pecan]

They are great stocks lol

[shrewd plinth]

I mean, metaverse was a huge investment that has gone nowhere

[chilly whale]

and apple wasn't in the list

[shrewd plinth]

Okay no, I need to.... leave my computer alone and go rest

[restive pecan]

If u just bought some top companies (not even necessarily including nvidia) u can outperform SnP by 10x (and that's after they have already boomed even)

Like top 7 tech companies shoulder 90% of the entire economic growth of USA 😂

[chilly whale]

sure, if you had an oracle telling you what stocks were going to do best, you could outperform the market

[restive pecan]

It was actually kinda cool. Sad. They also list yann le cun

[restive pecan]

Well as I said, even if u invested in em after their boom. But yeah ig

[chilly whale]

I mean, yes, but that's just survivorship bias

[restive pecan]

But yeah idk the interview process for all of em seems quite similar. Idk if resume matters for em. Maybe it does But idrk

I know people with very bad resumes get interviews

[chilly whale]

you're looking at the big companies that are big today and were also big 10 years ago. You're specifically looking at a handful of companies exactly because they have done well

[restive pecan]

Nvidia is the only one that seems markedly different. Openai/anthropic/waymo too ig but those are hard for entry level and they still ask DSA

[restive pecan]

Yeah fair ig

[shrewd plinth]

Uhhhh resumes definitely matter.

Maybe I’m missing context in this conversation due to exhaustion

[slow rivet]

Sleep

[chilly whale]

I think all of the people in who've chimed in on this discussion who've actually been involved in hiring have said resumes do get read before an interview.

it'd be a giant red flag for an interviewer to not read your resume before talking to you

[broken jetty]

so how does the whole voice verification work

it said I got to be active for one hour and thiry minutes in chat but I wanted to know what qualifies as that

I am just wondering because I don't know what exactly qualifies as 1:30:00

I don't know it seems to be a strange to me

[ivory nexus]

Hi

[last hatch]

Hi

[chilly whale]

I think it's something like sending messages within 9 different 10-minute intervals, or something like that

[peak relic]

just chat with us. contribute positively to whatever topics that interest you.

[chilly whale]

voice channels are harder to moderate than text channels, so we want people to engage with the text channels a bit before they start chatting in voice, both to give them a chance to see what the server's culture is like, and because trolls usually get bored and give up before they can voice verify

[brisk gazelle]

Voice chat mentioned.

It's Pavlovian, I swear.

Just less drooly.

[broken jetty]

I decided to join because I realized I needed to get my junk in order for my class and I might need to occasionally get help from people who actually understand this stuff

I just wanted to test the voice channels quickly and then realized that wasn't and blah blah here we are

[chilly whale]

what class are you taking?

[grave tree]

Coding tends to be primarily text based, so we tend to prefer text

plus if I'm in a boring meeting, I hang out here but obvs can't join voice

[broken jetty]

makes sense

still might be useful

but i don't need that right now

[chilly whale]

a meeting? boring? never!

[grave tree]

I'm processing survey data rn and it is interesting

[brisk gazelle]

The survey, or a survey?

[grave tree]

our survey!

We are no longer part of the partnership program since 2022. It's interesting seeing who our demographic is these days. People who stay here tend to really like staying here

mmm I do need to fix the color ordering though

It's because I can't spell

[brisk gazelle]

I haven't done it this year. I believe in the survey and all, it's just that...everything everywhere sucks so much that it's just a bit of "why bother?"

Not here. Here is nice.

[grave tree]

I (and several others with direct access) do read every submission! I'm more after the comments than the general demo data, but the general demo data is helpful for answering some questions

[brisk gazelle]

Broadly.

I fear that the internet is growing darker and darker, more closed off. It's getting difficult to breathe. I may be forced to walk away from the idea of online socialisation altogether.

[proper iris]

Guys my teacher in my ap computer science class has genuinely made me hate coding

[brisk gazelle]

That is unfortunate.

Maybe we can help you find the love.

[proper iris]

Something about coding isn’t fun anymore when you have to answer questions everyday on it

Nah I’m afraid it’s long gone

[brisk gazelle]

Alas.

[proper iris]

I can still write a print statement

[coarse salmon]

well thats CS in college too unfortunately

[proper iris]

So w

[raw bramble]

Why is green not between orange and red?

[chilly whale]

and a job

[proper iris]

Good thing I didn’t do it then

[brisk gazelle]

Print statement....you're not using Python 2, are you?

[chilly whale]

well - why not?

[stray crest]

Hi guys! Segue on the convo above. Just curious, what was the most convenient/impactful automation you made using python?

[proper iris]

It’s not even in python the class I took last year was python

It’s in Java

[grave tree]

the latest version, not shared here, is ordered by the length of time. The coloring is whatever altair wants. I'm just converting Stelercus' previous code to marimo and then going back to pretty-ify

[proper iris]

Python is way simpler but coding in general is just not as good as it seemed

[grave tree]

what parts of it aren't vibing with you?

[brittle grail]

hiiii

how is everyone?

[proper iris]

Idk there’s a lot of unnecessary stuff and it’s lowkey torture answering questions on it

But basically every part