questions-2

[last snow]

learning Schweizerdeutsch instead of standard german would be very strange tbh
but you could practice german with a person from switzerland to pick up some words

[lilac dagger]

It's not strange if your goal is to be in Switzerland

I want to go there for studies

Are there no online courses for swiss german?

[iron basalt]

Then you definitely actually need to know standard German. Professors do not teach in dialect. They teach in the standard language.

[last snow]

no im telling you, it would be very strange. it is not like in arabic where it is recommended to learn the regional dialect.

[iron basalt]

I have no clue, I've never learned it

[lilac dagger]

The swiss standard version or the normal standard version

[iron basalt]

Swiss standard

But it's almost the same

It's got some small differences and an accent lol

[lilac dagger]

Thank you Nate

But when you're fluent in standard German

Say C1 or C2

Will it be easier to learn the swiss dialect too

[iron basalt]

I'm just telling you tho because you wouldn't wanna learn only Swiss German just to get to Switzerland and not even understand the professors because all you know is the dialect

[lilac dagger]

I see

[iron basalt]

Absolutely

It's not discouraged to learn a dialect ofc but it's not necessary until you know standard

(Not even really necessary at all for most people unless they wanna live or study somewhere that has a strong regional dialect like you do)

[delicate tiger]

Additionally, almost everything written is in Standard (Swiss) German, not dialect.

[fervent kernel]

"Hallo Petra. Wie schön, dass du heute die Zeit gefunden hast, mit mir zu sprechen."
"Hallo Petra. Wie schön, dass du heute die Zeit mit mir zu sprechen gefunden hast"
are both valid? if not, is there a name for this type of sentence?

[undone hatch]

first one sounds better. I can't pin point why though, sorry

[devout latch]

ya hier ist ersteres richtig

das konzept hab ich mir eingeprägt durch das beispiel "ich ahne schlimmes"

[hasty zinc]

The first one is correct, the second one is understandable, but not correct grammar. Sentence structure generally is 1. subject 2. verb 3. object.
In your sentence time (Zeit) is the subject, to find (finden) is the verb and you (mir) the object. To speak (sprechen) adds more information to the object and used above is a "Finalsatz" that is always separated by a comma. Basically as soon as there is a "zu + infinitive" combination it has to be split off by a comma. You usually can find the correct comma placement by asking yourself "why or what for". What has she found time for? -> to spend time with me -> place comma before "to spend time with me"

[vagrant crane]

Hello
Sorry I’m new on here

[pseudo fog]

faq beginner

[stoic mauve]

How to get started - Part 2

Please make sure to read Part 1 before starting Part 2!

Part 2 – Beyond a Simple Sentence

1: Conjunctions (coordinating and subordinating)
2: Subordinate clause word order
3: Dative case
4: Dative verbs
5: Verbs with two objects (e.g. geben)
6: Prepositions (accusative, dative, and two-way)
7: Spoken past tense (Perfekt)
8: Written past tense (Präteritum)
9: Genitive case
10: Relative clauses
11: Adjective declension

Tips

• Make sure to practice writing and reading simple texts
• Some of these concepts are confusing to start with, so it’s a good idea to ask for help in #questions when you’re unsure
• You should use a declension chart to help with declension to start with, because you won’t be able to memorize it straight away
• After you feel confident with creating sentences, you can start learning the adjective declension properly by using the command >faq adjective declension and reading the guide provided

Page 2/2

[barren mural]

i am in german class and i need help a bit

[iron basalt]

can your teacher not help you?

[wet kayak]

🥀

[opaque lake]

do you speak german?

[thin oak]

Hi guys I have a question

Usually pronouns are written without capitalizing the first letter right? Like "und ich bin Frau" Instead of "und Ich bin Frau" right?

I've seen in Duolingo this sentence "Sind Sie Professor?"
Is "sie" when meaning "you" written w capitalized S ?

[hasty zinc]

So you would have to say "ich bin eine Frau". In polite (written) German you write "Sie" (polite you) with a capital letter, the same applies for "Ihr" and "Ihre" in that case. You do not do the same when talking about yourself (ich).

[thin oak]

Okaaay, does it only apply to Sir, Ihr, Ihre ?

[hasty zinc]

"Eure" as well. You can also do the same with "du", "deine", "dein" etc to be polite
Whenever you are adressing other people directly

[deft mural]

Hallo

[plush pelican]

Yes, most pronouns are not capitalized.

The exception is the formal you "Sie" and the formal possessive pronoun your "Ihr".

Du hast deinen Hund.
You have your dog. (informal you du, informal your dein)

Sie haben Ihren Hund.
You have your dog (formal you Sie, formal your Ihr)

You can find out about stuff like this on German grammar youtube channels, like YourGermanTeacher.

See also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEZev5K9TDI

[thin oak]

Thank you so much

[rapid sequoia]

true but in my experience Du, Dich Dein/e/en, Dir etc. aren't used all the time by everyone like the formal Sie is. Ive seen a lot of native speakers that don't do that (I think the younger generation tends to not do that, but please correct me if I'm wrong)

[hasty zinc]

You are absolutely correct ^^

[deft mural]

Hello

[fervent kernel]

I asked ChatGPT first, and it said my answer was acceptable?

(the difference is the particle "hin", omitted from the "correct solution")

[plush pelican]

1. Duolingo does not have all valid sentences. Duolingo literally just has a list of pre-approved sentences, and if your sentence isn't within 1 character of one of the items on the list, it marks it as wrong, even if it's right.

2. ChatGPT doesn't know grammar. Do not ask it if something is grammatically correct; it will simply lie to you.

If you want to do a course on German that is free, try Nicos Weg and YourGermanTeacher

https://learngerman.dw.com/en/nicos-weg/c-36519789
https://www.youtube.com/@yourgermanteacher/playlists

[fervent kernel]

Duolingo is fine for my needs, and yeah, I don't rely only on it!

Got this result after 11 months

[plush pelican]

@dawn oxide Kann man hier "hinsetzen" statt "setzen" sagen?

Ich bin mir nicht sicher

@fervent kernel Based on this TikTok, seems like you shouldn't have the "hin" if you specify exactly where you're sitting down

https://www.tiktok.com/@deutsch_mit_verenita/video/7517316242437377302

[dawn oxide]

I feel like colloquially people probably say that, but setzen sounds more correct to me

[fervent kernel]

Transcript + DeepL

Wenn du eine konkrete Angabe machst und so zeigst, wohin du dich setzt, legst Oder stellst, dann brauchst du
das „hin" nicht.
If you give specific information and thus indicate where you are sitting, lying, or standing, then you don't need
the word “hin.”

Und wenn du keine konkrete Angabe Oder nur die Wörter „hier" und „dort" benutzt, dann brauchst du „hin".
And if you don't give any specific information or only use the words “here” and “there,” then you need to use “hin.”

[plush pelican]

I feel like I summarized it pretty accurately above?

[fervent kernel]

Yep, thx!

I translated anyways since i didn't know some words like Angabe, then I decided to post it here in case anybody else would profit from it...

[plush pelican]

I see

Yeah, when they say "Angabe", that's like TeKaMoLo stuff, adverbs/propositional phrases

[grim elbow]

I'm with Karta here, it doesn't sound quite right.
Sounds much worse if you move the "hin" and start with "Ich setze mich hin, zwischen ...", but I don't know if those are related in a way where one tells us something about the other. Do you know @plush pelican?
"Ich setze mich hin, zwischen dir und dem Kinderstuhl" on the other hand would work imo (same if you move the "hin" back to the end), but that's more sitting down for the sake of sitting down, rather than expressly seeking to sit between two entities.

I think it works like this:

The main focus is the action of sitting down
setzen: Ich setze mich. Wo setzt du dich? Ich setze mich zwischen dir und dem Kinderstuhl.
hinsetzen: Ich setze mich hin. Wo setzt du dich hin? Ich setze mich zwischen dir und dem Kinderstuhl hin.

The main focus is where you end up
setzen: Ich setze mich. Wohin setzt du dich? Ich setzte mich zwischen dich und den Kinderstuhl.

[whole portal]

Seems wrong to me

I was about to say the same thing about using Dativ instead

[plush pelican]

You mean, you were going to say that using dative with zwischen also sounds wrong?

[whole portal]

No I mean what Tjip said, "Ich setze mich zwischen dir und dem ... hin."

"Ich setze mich zwischen dir und dem ..." sounds a little odd but I don't think there's anything wrong with it per se

[plush pelican]

But...

Setzen vs sitzen

Setzen is active, movement is literally baked into the verb

Why wouldn't it trigger accusative?

Ich sitze zwischen dem und dir.

Ich setze mich zwischen den and dich.

Unless you're saying with the dative that you were already between the person and thing before you even started sitting down, and after sitting down, that didn't change at all.

But usually, you're saying that the sitting itself is what makes you be between them, right?

I'm just trying to imagine a situation where you're between them before and after sitting down, and it seems odd

[hasty zinc]

When you sit down "zwischen" you sit in the middle of 2 people, so you have to use plural. "Ich sitze zwischen euch / Ich setze mich zwischen euch." "Ich sitze zwischen denen (rude, better use names in that case)."
You can instead adress just one person and say "Ich setze mich neben dich."

[plain umbra]

The plural here is represented by the compound object "X und Y". (I don't know if "compound object" is the right term but hopefully it makes sense.)

[hasty zinc]

Yes, just not used that way in spoken German. I assume you mean "Ich setze mich zwischen den/die und den/die"

[plush pelican]

The original was talking about between you and a kid's chair, not using "den" to mean another person. I was being lazy and not typing it fully out.

Zwischen den Kinderstuhl und dich

[hasty zinc]

that would be correct in that case ^^

[plush pelican]

I wasn't trying to use den to refer to a person. But even if I was, that's possible anyway, right?

Ich setze mich zwischen ihn und dich

[hasty zinc]

Possible yes, but not really used that way as it may be perceived as rude. When saying "zwischen ihn und dich" you are asking one person / talking to one person only and the choice of words suggests you dont know at least one of these people. Better would be "zwischen euch" as both people are included (the sentence is a hidden question -> "Can i sit there?"), if you are familiar with them you can use "ich setze mich zwischen name person 1 und dich"
Grammatically "zwischen ihn und dich" isnt wrong either way 🙂

[ember iron]

Dürfte ich fragen wie ihr das umschreiben würdest ohne "man". Es klingt nicht wirklich so schön aber ich weiß nicht wie ich es schreiben soll.😭✋️

"Wenn man Zeichnen oder Malen gerne macht, kann man auch versuchen digital zu zeichnen."

Es geht um Eltern, die ihre Kinder in die digitale Welt begleiten und Medien kreativ nutzen.

[plush pelican]

Wer gerne zeichnet/malt, kann es auch digital machen.

[ember iron]

Oh daran hab ich nicht gedacht oopps. Dankeschönnn 🙏🙏

[jade hawk]

Enzos Abwesenheit sprach Bände. Sie hinterließ ein Vakuum, das sich schnell mit Spekulationen füllte, und zu Vincenzos Schrecken war das für ihn Undeknbare etwas, das die Dorfbewohner längst aus alten Zeiten kannten.
Is this Undenkbare etwas just a poetic rendition of etwas Undenkbares or what? I've never seen this form before

[iron basalt]

Its base form would be "das Undenkbare"

[grim elbow]

no, what is meant is this: "Das Undenkbare war etwas, das die Dorfbewohner längst kannten"

I feel like there should be a comma between "Undenkbare" and "etwas", but I've never been good with that stuff

at least while reading I'd have a slight pause there

[jade hawk]

oh

yeah thats confusing but makes sense after reading it a few times

[grim elbow]

the structure isn't exactly easy

[jade hawk]

but that is basically etwas Undenkbares then

Das Undenkbare war etwas, das
etwas Undenkbares war das, das

Why is it Undenkbare if there's no das, it should be Undenkbares then, no? No article, so strong declension

[iron basalt]

idk if it helps you any further but, "das Undenkbare" means "the unthinkable," whereas "etwas Undenkbares" means "something unthinkable" @jade hawk

[jade hawk]

does help but still why is there no das before the capitalised Undenkbare

[grim elbow]

"das" does not refer back to the previous sentence, it's the article for "Undenkbare".

[jade hawk]

but there is no article

oh unless you mean the das in the middle of the sentence

how is it so detached?

[grim elbow]

das (für ihn) Undenkbare

[jade hawk]

oh nvm I know this

Yeah okay thanks

[iron basalt]

It's definitely a little difficult to get used to this construction but the more you read the more you'll get used to it 👍

[grim elbow]

You are not completely wrong, but there's still a difference "Das Undenkbare" is more dramatic than "etwas Undenkbares" (because in the latter ther can be multiple unthinkable things, wheras in the former there is one singular main concern)

Also, it doesn't really work in that sentence. "Zu Vincenzos Schrecken war das etwas Undenkbares" means that he was terrified by it being unthinkable, rather than being terrified that the unthinkable was something that other were already familiar with

btw where it that passage from?

[jade hawk]

yeah I get it now. I've just never seen an extended attributive/extended participial phrase/erweitertes partizipialattribut combined with a nominalised adjective before so it caught me off guard

[jade hawk]

Page 580 of Bella Germania from Daniel Speck

[grim elbow]

ooo interesting

[gleaming dust]

hello 👋

how long maybe to learn German to be B2

or speak almost fluent

is working with native speaker good

like listening to them and trying go comunitate

[willow socket]

sure

[rustic cove]

Ich möchte helfen gehabt für mein Grammatik perfekt. Es ist nicht sehr gut 😭 .

[willow socket]

hast du eine spezifische Frage? (falls du Englisch kannst, kannst du die Frage auch auf Englisch stellen.)

[rustic cove]

Meine Muttersprache ist Englisch

Can you explain when you use the prefixes like ge for past and what is defined as part?

[willow socket]

I don't know what you mean by "what is defined as part".

Here is an article that explains the Perfekt tense: https://berlinoschule.com/the-german-perfekt-perfect-tense/

there are also youtube videos on the topic, if you prefer that to reading.

The "quick and dirty" of Perfekt is that it is formed with an auxiliary verb -- either haben or sein -- and a past participle (Partizip I).

Auxiliary verb 'sein' if there is movement or a change of state involved. Otherwise 'haben'. For example: Ich bin gelaufen (I ran). Ich habe einen Mantel gekauft. (I bought a coat).

Past participle for regular verbs is formed by adding a ge- prefix and a -t at the end. There are exceptions to this for irregular verbs. And special rules for certain verb forms. Most notably, verbs starting with a prefix like be-, ent-, er-, ver-, etc. do not get an additional ge- prefix on their participle (ex. beenden -> beendet, erhalten -> erhalten, verbrauchen -> verbraucht). And verbs that end in -ieren also do not a get a ge- prefix on the participle. Just a -t ending (ex. kombinieren -> kombiniert, evaluieren -> evaluiert)

[rustic cove]

Thank you

[knotty basin]

Hallo

[timber yacht]

should be Partizip II, right? 🙂

[willow socket]

Yeah ofc

[thin oak]

Hi guys, hope y'all alright
Do we say " ist es sonnig heute?" or "ist es heute sonnig?" ?
And if it's the same for other descriptive words too? Like cloudy, rainy ... (Idk what they are in Germany yet)

[flint nimbus]

does anyone have a suggestion for aristotle's nicomachean ethics in german translation?

[thin oak]

Also can we say "es sonnig" ??
Because Duolingo showed me "it's raining" as in "es + raining in German"
Without "ist"
So I'm wondering if that's possible too

[spiral ravine]

both are correct, the second one sounds more normal here, and yes it is the same for other adjectives

[spiral ravine]

duolingo is wrong, it's -> es ist is correct

[thin oak]

Okaaay thank youu Kira

[spiral ravine]

np^^

[dawn oxide]

Es regnet is correct

sonnig is an adjective though so that doesn't work without ist

[thin oak]

Aaaaah okay I see it

I see it now*

Thanks y'all !!

[spiral ravine]

oh right, I did not read correctl

sorry @thin oak

[thin oak]

Nah dw you did help
That we must use "ist"
I thought we can just say "es sunnig"

But apparently regnet is a verb

[teal cliff]

yes
saying es sonnt might work in some dialects but not in standard german

(using sonnen (not a real word) as a verb in that sentence

sonnig is the adjective

Sonne is the noun

[thin oak]

Alrighty thank uu

[spiral ravine]

sonnen is a real word tho

sunbathing

[teal cliff]

oh yea
but not in the sense of the sun shining i guess

[spiral ravine]

yes, logic is still sound^^

[teal cliff]

i come from a dialect where you can say es kaltet and it would work lmao

[spiral ravine]

x3

[teal cliff]

its quite common to say something like mia koidts

= mir ist kalt

[spiral ravine]

ah na a bayer

[teal cliff]

a boar bini neda!

[wispy yarrow]

[cold gale]

I've found an app on android that allows me to read german articles, and we can tap words to have their translation. Is that a good way to start learning ? I'm asking because there's a subcription model so i'd like to be sure

[main flare]

I’m pretty sure there are plenty of free browser extensions that do the same

[cold gale]

Oh, that's more interesting indeed

all the ones I've found so far are AI 😒

if anyone knows of any non-ai ones, ping me anytime

[static quartz]

Don’t you actually can do that with kindle? Like it’s included in every book?

[main flare]

Yeah you can

[outer imp]

Ain’t you a German ?

[wispy yarrow]

Natives have a yellow colour

[modest sedge]

is the -ig suffix (zum beispiel "es sonnig") pronounced differently to the regular g sound, someone said something like this

[iron basalt]

Technically there are 2 different acceptable pronunciations.

You can pronounce it like "ik" or "ich"

It's more so a region-dependent thing

[modest sedge]

so it's the same rules as ich? is the g sound still detectable or is it just transformed

[iron basalt]

As far as I'm aware the more southern areas say "ik" in that suffix

[iron basalt]

No, because ich isn't pronounced "ik" unless you're speaking a Berlin dialect

[iron basalt]

It's transformed if you pronounce it like ich, yeah

If that's what you mean

[modest sedge]

yeah thats what i was thinking

ty

[iron basalt]

Np

[outer imp]

Hello

[jade hawk]

Whats the most natural way to express "to become attached to somebody"? Jemand ist jemandem lieb geworden? Ans Herz gewachsen? Or just Jemand ist an jemandem gehangen geworden?

[plush pelican]

I have no idea about the answer, but for the last sentence, if you have "werden" and another verb, you have to use the other form of werden's Partizip 2, right? The "worden"?

So "gehangen worden"?

[jade hawk]

that was what I wrote before I decided to not trust my sprachgefühl and edited it to the other option

so yeah prolly

[willow socket]

why would it be passive? The construction is just "jemand ist an jemandem gehangen".
I see what you meant to do with geworden ("becoming"), but worden I think is just wrong

[willow socket]

to answer the question, ans Herz gewachsen and an jemandem gehangen sein are both fine ways to say someone has become important to you or you are attached to them ,respectively. To add the concept of "becoming", you can add a time adverbial I think. Just add 'im Laufe der Zeit' or 'mit der Zeit' or even mittlerweile perhaps.

[jade hawk]

Damn. It seems that I've been confused by the passive again

jemand ist an jemandem gehangen is already passive, no? Zustandpassiv
Cause the main construction is this, in active voice

[plush pelican]

https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/hängen

Apparently, "hängen" takes sein as a helping verb in parts of southern Germany and Austria and Switzerland? And it's also sometimes written as "hangen"

[willow socket]

now I'm confused. I swear I've seen "ist an jemandem gehangen", but shouldn't it be hat an jemandem gehangen? is it zustandspassiv or perfekt?

[plush pelican]

For this intransitive meaning, anyway

[jade hawk]

dwds says you can use sein too

[willow socket]

Ich hänge mittlerweile sehr an ihr.
Sie ist mir (mit der Zeit) ans Herz gewachsen.
Sie ist mir mittlerweile/mit der Zeit sehr wichtig geworden.

These are the ways I would say it (might not be the best)

Ich bin/habe an ihr gehangen would be past, also possible ig(?) with an adverb that emphasises process.

[plush pelican]

Btw @willow socket I had a question in the other channel, if you have any idea about that:

#questions message

[soft beacon]

Are these correct?:

Wie Heißen Sie?

Wie Heißt du?

Ich Heiße Leonard.

[jade hawk]

None are correct due to how the words are capitalized

[soft beacon]

Oh oops

I was thinking heißen was a noun for some reason

But it’s a verb

[jade hawk]

yeah verbs arent capitalized unless theyre at the beginning of a sentence

[soft beacon]

If I fixed the pronunciation would it be correct?

Capitalization*

Damn it

[jade hawk]

Yes

[soft beacon]

Danke

[fervent kernel]

was ist der unterschied zwischen la regidité (die starre, die steifheit) und l'austérité ??

[wispy yarrow]

#other-languages

[fervent kernel]

das ist deutsch.

ok?

ich hab die deutsche nicht verstanden

[wispy yarrow]

What do you mean?

[fervent kernel]

deutsche bedeutungen

[wispy yarrow]

Then why do you ask for frech words? ._.

[fervent kernel]

maybe someone knows about it

[willow zinc]

Hallo, Leute!

Ich habe auf eine interessante Bedeutung des Wortes "innehaben" gestoßen.
2. gespreizt etw. besitzen

Ist es OK dieses Wort heutzutage statt haben oder besitzen zu nutzen? z.B. im Essay für C1 Niveau / im Gespräch usw.

[karmic yoke]

Ich als Deutscher habe davon noch nie gehört

[willow socket]

Zumindest in der schriftlichen Sprache sieht man das. Aber selten in der gesprochenen

[willow zinc]

Vielen Dank!

[viral ibex]

"der" in "derselbe" here would be referring to the examiner? also does this construction sound natural? it threw me off for a bit 😆

[rustic dock]

yes

[viral ibex]

thankss

[plush pelican]

German does not require the subject (der Fahrprüfer) to be in position 1. This is quite different from English, and takes a while to get used to, but is quite normal in German.

[viral ibex]

that's fine by me, what threw me off was more the change of topic in the middle of the phrase that in other languages i feel would be sort of separated from the main body with ( ... ) or - ... - or introduced with a "the examiner, WHO was the same as...", but here it's all the same and just sort of thrown in there, and then attached to that interjection is immediately the continuation of the main phrase 😆 if that makes sense

[plush pelican]

what is the interjection?

not "who", "it"

[viral ibex]

the phrase starts off with the purpose of reporting what the examiner says, then interjects saying it was the same examiner as the last time and then back to what the examiner said

if im reading it correctly

[plush pelican]

After 5 minutes, the driving instructor told me already (that) it was the same as the first time: "You've failed."

[viral ibex]

yes that was how i read it initially

but then wouldn't that be "dasselbe"?

[bold relic]

bern hat schlinck der forlesse

[viral ibex]

or is it implying something like "fall", with "der"?

[plush pelican]

idk why they did "derselbe", but nothing else makes sense in the context of the "Sie sind durchgefallen", other than referring to "it" (the situation) being the same

[viral ibex]

exactly, that's what confused me

[plush pelican]

What about the previous 2 sentences?

Look back and see if there's anything else in the context it could be referring to

Like, if the previous sentence is, "Ich hatte auf einen erfolgreichen Abschluss gehofft", then maybe

This is also useful advice in general: If the sentence itself raises questions, look to the context around the sentence and see if something before or after helps make sense of it.

[plush pelican]

It must be that "derselbe" is the neutral form of the word without reference to anything in particular

interesting 🤔

[viral ibex]

curious ahah

[plain umbra]

What does the 8 refer to?

[viral ibex]

it just explains the purpose of die/der/dasselbe but it doesn't make any reference to the text itself

[plain umbra]

Okay, I see. I think the derselbe refers to the Fahrprüfer.

[plush pelican]

That doesn't make sense, though?

After five minutes, the driving instructor told me, it was the same driving instructor as the first time: "You've failed."

It makes much more sense for "derselbe" to be referring to the general situation, to be talking about them failing again

[viral ibex]

i forgot, the translated text does seems to hint it's talking about the instructor being the same (though that's up to who adapted the book in italian and not the original writer, not sure how their process looks like)

[viral ibex]

yes it sounds pretty awkward

[plain umbra]

Think of it like this:
After five minutes, the driving instructor told me (it was the same instructor as the first time): ...

[plush pelican]

Yeah, and if there had been parentheses, that would make sense

then I'd definitely agree with you

[viral ibex]

so I was interested to know if the construction is also awkward in german

[plain umbra]

But German doesn't really use different punctuation as much as English for stuff like that. That's what I think is causing the confusion here.

German very often just uses commas for everything.

[viral ibex]

would you say this one sentence flows well though?

[plain umbra]

Hard to say since I'm not a native speaker. I don't think I've really seen this structure myself much, but it sounds very conversational, so maybe it's just specific to this writing style.

[plush pelican]

@coral karma What does "derselbe" refer to here, in your opinion?

[plain umbra]

Like it sounds like a person listing their thoughts on an event casually as someone who's not necessarily a literary writer.

[viral ibex]

i see, thank you. this one text is supposed to be an entry in a diary so that'd be plausible i guess

[plush pelican]

Btw, what do the bolded parts mean? Is there where you're supposed to pitch your voice up or down or something?

[viral ibex]

yes it's where the word is stressed

the book is accompanied by audios

[coral karma]

Sup

Let me read

[coral karma]

You have to read it contextually: the day began badly. By afternoon I had my driving practice . Since it’s my second time, I was very nervous.
Part 7: after 5 minutes, the driving instructor says, it was the same (es war derselbe) as last time: you have failed

[plush pelican]

so "derselbe" refers to the general situation, rather than saying that it was the same (driving instructor)?

[viral ibex]

so you think it's talking about the same outcome rather than the same instructor?

[coral karma]

Es war derselbe breakdown: es war= it was. Derselbe = the same thing. Der = the , selbe =same

[plush pelican]

Why "derselbe" and not "dasselbe"?

[coral karma]

Bc it emphasises the exact same thing / person

Who did the same mistake last time

So the person practicing driving , repeated the same mistake

[plush pelican]

wait, what?

the person speaking is using "derselbe" to refer to themselves?

[coral karma]

No

It’s a bit hard to explain, give me a minute

[plush pelican]

To be clear, I was asking if it's either

1. "derselbe" refers to the general situation, the outcome, that they have failed again

2. "derselbe" refers to the driving instructor, it's some aside saying that the driving instructor is the same as by the first test

I think you're saying 1

[coral karma]

dasselbe = neuter things (test result/Es) -> Es war dasselbe wie das erste Mal.

derselbe = masculine things/people (examiner/Der Prüfer) -> Der Prüfer war derselbe.

Yes, it should be das

Wait I’m confused, what is the task asking for?

[plush pelican]

We're asking what "derselbe" refers to, because as it stands, it looks like an error or something

[coral karma]

It refers to the same mistake as last time

Same result as the first time

[plush pelican]

Base thought maybe it was referring to the driving instructor, like:

Nach fünf Minuten sagte mir schon der Fahrprüfer (es war derselbe wie das erste Mal): "Sie sind durchgefallen."

[coral karma]

That they failed

[plush pelican]

but in order to refer to the same mistake as last time, it needs to be "dasselbe", right?

[coral karma]

The author implies that the driver is going to say it was the same result as last time, then author quotes the driver

[plush pelican]

That's how I interpreted it, except for the fact that it's derselbe and not dasselbe

[coral karma]

Yeah it should be das. Der is just grammatically incorrect. But I think that’s the point of the workbook, but the poster didn’t send context of the workbook activity

[plush pelican]

I don't think there was anything in there about correcting mistakes for the activity 🙃

[viral ibex]

it's just a text, we're not supposed to correct or anything

[plush pelican]

I've encountered mistakes in other German workbooks before, btw

sadly

[coral karma]

Why is it in bold then

Are you sure there’s no activity

[viral ibex]

it's where the word is stressed to help with pronunciation

[viral ibex]

yes

[coral karma]

I mean derselbe works but it’s just more colloquial

[viral ibex]

well their method likes to use colloquial language rather than strictly academical so that wouldn't be so weird, as long as it's correct

[coral karma]

Ok yeah that’s probably why then

As long as your exam board (if you are doing one) is ok with it

Then it’s fine

[viral ibex]

i see, thanks a lot then

[plush pelican]

why is derselbe more colloquial than dasselbe?

is the colloquial thing to just default to derselbe for everything regardless of gender?

[coral karma]

Lazy ig

Just skipping the neuter noun

[viral ibex]

oh so you didn't mean colloquial to refer to the examiner?

[coral karma]

Not grammatically correct but ppl know what you mean

[viral ibex]

it still reads like they're talking about the outcome?

[coral karma]

? Wdym

The author was speaking colloquially

By saying derselbe instead of dasselbe

[viral ibex]

thought you meant the phrasing was colloquial, but that they meant the examiner was the same

[plain umbra]

I'm pretty sure it is referring to the examiner.

[viral ibex]

i would think derselbe is just a mistake if used to describe the outcome

[viral ibex]

seems likely yeah

[coral karma]

Yes it’s describing the outcome

That the person failed again

Got the same outcome: failed first test and second

[plain umbra]

But maybe ask some other native speakers later when they're available.

[coral karma]

I answered duuude

[plain umbra]

Is there any issue with asking other people as well?

[coral karma]

[willow socket]

Not a native speaker, but I agree with Basementality: as it's written, it (imo pretty clearly) refers to having the same examiner as last time. And I don't think it's a mistake. @viral ibex

well....could be a mistake. It is a bit odd that they say 'es' instead of 'er' :/

[plain umbra]

Ja, I was wondering about that too. But I could see how someone could insert "es" casually there. Not sure if that's English influence though (in the sense that we use "it is/was" phrasing like this pretty often).

[viral ibex]

thanks, that added to my confusion as well but concluded it was just another use of their ""filler es"". good to know it sounds a little off used like that

[timber yacht]

The word schon is in an awkward spot here, that's why it does not flow.
Since it refers to the short span of time, you'd either say:
"Schon nach fünf Minuten sagte mir der Fahrprüfer (...)."
or
"Nach fünf Minuten schon sagte mir der Fahrprüfer (...)."

In the original sentence, it sounds like more people were involved but der Fahrprüfer was the first to note: "Schon der Fahrprüfer sagte mir, ich sei durchgefallen." ("Schon meine Mutter meinte, ich könne alles schaffen." | "Schon der Busfahrer bezweifelte, dass ich den Flug noch kriegen würde.")

Regarding the question whether derselbe fits here, in my view it's a hundred percent clear that it's correctly used and referring to the Fahrprüfer, him (he?) being the same as last time. If it was referring to the situation, dasselbe would have been used. "Es geschah dasselbe wie beim letzten Mal." With schon in the right spot, it's a perfectly fine sentence and specificly states what is referred to.

[viral ibex]

thank you, if it's very intuitive it's talking about the examiner, in which way would you say "es" used in "es war derselbe" is to be perceived? why not "er war derselbe"? is it in a similar fashion as when you guys say "es ist" to signify "es gibt"?

like, i guess if adapted to english, would it be correct to read it more as a "there was the same (examiner) as the last time" rather than "he was the same (examiner) as the last time"?

[plush pelican]

But if it's referring to the Fahrprüfer, shouldn't that aside have been in parentheses instead of only separated by a comma?

Nach fünf Minuten sagte mir schon der Fahrprüfer (es war derselbe wie das erste Mal):

[jade spire]

would the sentance "man kann seiner Kopf sprechen" make sense? i probably butchered the case though

"man kann von seiner Kopf sprechen" ?

[dawn oxide]

What are you trying to say in English?

[iron basalt]

Probably "to speak one's mind" is what they're going for

[jade spire]

yeah

smt along the lines of "one can say what's in their head" that makes sense

[willow socket]

Why? (And no)

[iron basalt]

Forgot to say what I think works best earlier, my bad. In German you can simply use the expression "seine Meinung sagen/ausdrücken." There's not a word-for-word idiom that I'm aware of, but this German expression does the same thing.

The one you wrote does not work.

Also this expression exists: "sich [etw.] von der Seele reden" but this is not a general "to speak one's mind" rather it's like "to get smth. off one's chest" I just thought I'd mention it as a little bonus because, "to speak one's mind" is not always necessarily a positive thing.

[timber yacht]

The comma before the colon is omitted because you'd have ,:" in a row. https://blog.leo.org/2016/11/07/komma-vor-dem-doppelpunk/

There are more rules like this, e.g. if your sentence ends in an abbreviation you don't have two full stops.

[charred harbor]

(Also worth noting Kopf isn’t feminine)

[plush pelican]

what? You have misread my comment

I'm not saying, "Why isn't there a comma before the colon?"

I am saying, if that bit of text was meant as an aside, the bit that reads 'es war derselbe wie das erste Mal', if that is meant as an aside, why is that only separated from the clause before it with a comma, and why is it not instead separated by parentheses?

So if that bit of information was meant as an aside, why is it,

Nach fünf Minuten sagte mir schon der Fahrprüfer, es war derselbe wie das erste Mal:

And not

Nach fünf Minuten sagte mir schon der Fahrprüfer (es war derselbe wie das erste Mal):

?

To me, it reads as though they are paraphrasing what the Fahrprüfer said.

After 5 minutes, the driving instructor told me it was the same as the first time: "You've failed."

so the result, how they did on the driving test, the situation, it was the same: they failed the first time, and they also failed the second time.

[whole portal]

I don't see any issue here

I would've said "wie beim ersten Mal" instead of das, but it's clearly an aside. The comma and parentheses both work as far as I understand

Der Einschub wird meist von Gedankenstrichen umschlossen in den Satz eingefügt oder durch Klammern oder Kommata vom restlichen Satz getrennt.

Which one you use is kind of a style question, there's a bunch of opinions on when to use the Gedankenstrich but
... - es war derselbe wie beim ersten Mal: ...
would've worked as well

The colon does make it awkward here but using commas isn't anything out of the ordinary

[timber yacht]

Ah ja, entschuldige, das habe ich wohl nicht gründlich genug gelesen.
Ich bin aber überrascht, dass Du den eingeschobenen Nebensatz, durch Kommas abgetrennt, nicht als durchaus üblich erkennst.

[plush pelican]

The thing that messes me up is that it is so close to meaning something else:

Er sagte mir, es war dasselbe wie das erste Mal: "Sie sind durchgefallen."

[timber yacht]

Derselbe makes it clear.

[plush pelican]

And if it had been dasselbe?

[whole portal]

It would be an odd way to phrase it

[plush pelican]

He told me it was the same thing as last time: "You failed."

What would be a more normal way to phrase that?

[timber yacht]

Schon nach fünf Minuten sagte mir der Fahrprüfer dasselbe wie das erste Mal: "Sie sind durchgefallen".
Ich finde übrigens auch, dass beim ersten Mal besser klingt.

[plush pelican]

Not "he told me the same thing as last time"

"He told me it was the same as last time"

[dawn oxide]

No translator would ever make that kinda mistake tho unless they used ChatGPT or smth & even that would probably not make that kinda mistake*

[timber yacht]

Das klingt, als sei der Grund für das Durchfallen derselbe wie bei der letzten Prüfung.

[plush pelican]

I've seen mistakes in German learning textbooks before

[plush pelican]

Weil der Fahrer derselbe ist 😄

[dawn oxide]

Ja das glaube ich dir, aber dasselbe mit derselbe zu verwechseln wäre schon komisch

[timber yacht]

Das sind doch zwei verschiedene Aussagen, und hier ist ganz klar, dass der Fahrprüfer derselbe war, nicht unbedingt der Grund für die vermasselte Prüfung.

[plush pelican]

I was making a joke

The joke: the reason they failed both times is the same: Because it was the same driver both times

I wasn't re-interpreting the sentence

[timber yacht]

In my view, the whole sentence isn't ambiguous at all. 🙂

The placement of schon is wrong.

[plush pelican]

so they can be wrong about "schon" but not wrong about "derselbe"?

If it was supposed to be "dasselbe", would that make the placement of "schon" better?

Because again, if it's supposed to be "dasselbe", then it makes sense, doesn't it?

"I don't need to see any more than these 5 minutes, because it's the same as last time: you're a terrible driver, you've failed."

[whole portal]

I'm kinda still confused which part is so odd to you

The sentence is perfectly normal the way it is

[timber yacht]

Ich habe hier #questions-2 message versucht darzustellen, warum ich das schon falsch oder ungünstig platziert finde: es war schon nach fünf Minuten und nicht schon der Fahrprüfer.
Wenn man nur derselbe durch dasselbe ersetzt
Schon nach fünf Minuten sagte mir der Fahrprüfer, es war dasselbe wie das erste Mal: "Sie sind durchgefallen".
dann wäre die Situation die gleiche, nicht der Fahrprüfer.

[whole portal]

(Yeah the schon is weird)

[plush pelican]

I'm just wrong, it's not important

[whole portal]

And no, dasselbe would not change anything about the schon

[plush pelican]

question about schon: "schon" always comes before the thing it's modifying?

or is it just that it's split off from the "nach fünf Minuten" with the verb in between?

[timber yacht]

Nö. "Nach fünf Minuten schon ..." geht auch.

[timber yacht]

Gute Frage.

[plush pelican]

It sounds like the issue is that it's been split off from the "nach fünf Minuten" and separated by the verb

Can you have a "schon" that's not attached to anything in particular in a sentence?

🤔

[timber yacht]

Schon!

[plush pelican]

But here, it clearly should be attached to the "nach fünf Minuten"?

[timber yacht]

Es sollte eindeutig erkennbar sein, worauf es sich bezieht.

[plush pelican]

What would it mean to attach schon to "mir"?

"He told me of all people already"?

[timber yacht]

Die syntaktische Systematik überschaue ich nicht, leider.

[plush pelican]

(whereas I would've expected he would've told other people)

?

[robust glade]

I personally think it refers to the Driving instructor (i had German in my Abitur as an "Leistungskurs"). I also asked my brother and he is also very sure that it refers to the instructor. The explanation of Basementality is right here, the comma is on a weird spot but it definetely works like this. I still think the sentence isnt fluent, because the "schon" doesnt Sound very nice in that context. "Derselbe" definetely doesnt belong to the General Situation or the mistake, because i that little Text is nothing mentioned about a mistake. If something is written about a mistake in the Text before (which we cant see) it could refer to the mistake.

[willow socket]

Sich dieser Abhängigkeit schämen
I am familiar with sich für etwas schämen. Is this a genitive object that fell out of fashion, perhaps (fingers crossed lol)? Or dative?

[plush pelican]

Sounds like genitive yeah

Reminds me of sich etwas (genitive) erinnern

Isn't that a part of German switching from being a synthetic language to more analytic over time? The switch to prepositions rather than more complicated cases?

https://deutschegrammatik20.de/der-einfache-satz/verben-mit-akkusativ-dativ-nominativ-genitiv-praepositionalergaenzun/verben-mit-genitiv/

[whole portal]

Yeah all of the * ones sound just plain wrong to me, feels like something that died out a century ago

[rustic dock]

erinnern + genitive is correct though and you can still read it in books

(grammatically it makes most sense out of all options, but colloquialisms seem to be taking over)

[rustic dock]

yes… awful

[eternal ruin]

Could you use "Verantwortung" to translate "responsibility", as in the concept of someone who is dependable, or does it only work for someone who is accountable/liable for something?

[iron basalt]

That's closer to like a liability in English. Dependablility is closer to die Zuverlässigkeit

[eternal ruin]

yeah unfortunately I've already used Zuverlässigkeit as a translation for reliability and I'm trying to distinguish between the two, but it seems like that nuance might not exist in German

[plush pelican]

What about "verlässlich"?

from "sich auf jdn. verlassen"

[eternal ruin]

is there difference in nuance between Verlässlichkeit and Zuverlässigkeit?

[plush pelican]

Idk

https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Verlässlichkeit

the definition literally uses "zuverlässig"

"Zuverlässigkeit" is listed as a synonym

[willow socket]

verantwortungsvoll can be used to mean something like 'someone who acts responsibly', but zuverlässig is the closest to dependable.

[jade hawk]

Hallo was ist eurer Meinung nach das beste Buch über die Geschichte und Entwicklung von der deutschen Sprache? Oder ne Doku/TV-Staffel/was auch immer

[plush pelican]

🤔 keine Ahnung, vielleicht ein Uni-Kurs über die Sprache? 😄

Dieser Typ hat viele Shorts über die Sprache: https://www.youtube.com/@LachundSprachgeschichten/videos

[jade hawk]

och ja ich könnte das studienprogramm einer universität nachschlagen da sollten ein paar bücher darüber stehen

[plush pelican]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-B0J-DuBOk

Man kann auch bei 16:02 anfangen

[jade hawk]

danke

[jade hawk]

okay hab gecheckt und der kurs über die sprachgeschichte an meiner uni wird auf diesen zwei bücher basiert

Polenz, Peter von (2020): Geschichte der deutschen Sprache. Berlin, New York: de Gruyter.

[jade hawk]

och das ist auch von einer uni, ausgezeichnet

[plush pelican]

"Wir waren bei der 2 Stunde vom Schwimmkurs."

bei der 2 Stunde?

bei der zweiten Stunde?

[nova sparrow]

Definitiv! wir waren bei der 2 Stunde sounds just 🤮

[plush pelican]

So lächeln = smile
lachen = to laugh
But laughter is das Gelächter?

I constantly confuse those two, and that doesn't help

[rustic dock]

yes

lächeln has -eln which often signifies a slighter version of something.

the act of a dog walking on only 2 legs, with its back upright, might be described as „menscheln“

as it is somewhat humanly to do that, but not quite „menschlich“

think of it like that

lächeln is doing something similar to lachen, but not quite, a weaker version of it

in gelächter, the ä is a natural umlaut that occurs becuase the root is lachen and e is a front vowel

so naturally it becomes ä

it is not a reference to lächeln

this might cause confusion to you, but especially in nouns, this can in most cases be traced to the i-umlaut

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_umlaut

if you care enough, you could read about why umlauts happen at all in german

the short version is that they bring a vowel of a word stem closer to the old germanic ending (usually i)

so a back vowel is fronted to match the sound of i

it’s a form of vowel harmony that makes words easier to pronounce since both vowels are closer to one another

so your mouth and tongue have to move less

in this instance, the reason why i’m telling you this, is because lächeln and gelächter both developed that way

they both come from that phonological pattern

i.e. gelächter is not derived from lächeln, or vice versa

but both their respective morphemes (in both cases suffixes) demand vowel harmony

so in their shared stem, the vowel is fronted

it’s a purely phonological thing, not an etymological one

this is a bit much theory but maybe it helps you understand the ‚why‘ and ‚how‘ of it

a thing to consider is that the term „i-umlaut“ is no longer exhaustively descriptive of the phenomenon. while it happens with ‚i‘, it does not exclusively so, in modern german, often times it also applies to ‚e‘

but it’s not a completed or perfect sound shift, so it’s not fully consistent

multiple other sound changes along the centuries influenced it

a thing to look out for are monosyllabic word stems with back vowels like in the case of lachen, which is lach- + infinite -en

there, it’s most consistent

don’t think about it too much tho :D

[tawny niche]

Hi

[flint nimbus]

do you have any tips for famous german books that are fine at like a b2 level and worth reading for grown ups?

the resources pdf recommends tintenherz and momo

[willow socket]

I have a list of books, but I have trouble classifying an originally German book into a level like B2. You can try to read it at B2, but realistically more comfortable at C1+, probably.

[flint nimbus]

yeah i'm really just saying something that's perhaps a bit easier than normally. I'm not really at b2 myself

[soft crown]

Can someone tell me the difference between ABCD

[dawn oxide]

Maybe you can find smth here

https://www.reddit.com/r/German/comments/1b9oy04/actual_book_recommendations_for_b1b2/

[dawn oxide]

What do you mean

[trail prism]

Maybe an actual beginner question (lol) IDK. Back when I did German classes, the lecturer strongly advised against using lieben casually and we'd often get told to use some form of mögen + intensifier instead. These days I see 'liebe' being used a lot more e.g. in context of favourite footballer/actor, hobby, food etc. Is this an actual use, is it a colloquialism, or...?

(Not the 'hab dich lieb' construct.)

[dawn oxide]

I'd say it depends on context and who you're talking to. If you're writing about what you like then yea you'd rather use mögen, liebe in this context feels a bit too colloquial and intense

[trail prism]

Context is I saw a Haaland fan just type a bunch of stuff including "ich liebe Haaland" after a match and I was a bit surprised. Does that make sense, is that a thing you would just say mag for?

[dawn oxide]

Yea that's pretty normal. It's more intense than just mag. it's not much different compared to English though I'd say? I love Haaland vs I like Haaland

I love pizza vs I like pizza

Kinda the same, you just wouldn't express it that way when writing something formal for a course or something if they ask you to talk about your favourite things

[trail prism]

Ah so colloquial v formal?

[dawn oxide]

I wouldn't say mögen is necessarily formal, it's more so that using lieben that way would be considered more colloquial than mögen

Lieben is more intense/strong than mögen, but colloquially you'll hear both

But when negating, you'd never rlly use lieben there

[trail prism]

Fair, yeah, then that makes sense to me, thank you so much 🙏 I think we don't touch too much colloquial uses case in class so it's the one that I struggle with. (I suppose also because when you're in A1 the presumption is you're not using it competently rather than using it colloquially. Also why the 'Freundin von mir' thing confused me.)

[trail prism]

Ok, one question (if you don't mind sorry.)

[dawn oxide]

Yea I think for that it helps to just talk to people or listen to videos/streams where people talk to each other normally how they'd irl

[trail prism]

I know in English if I say "Well, I don't love X," I can be taken to be implying a weak to moderate dislike for X. The direct way I'd say it auf Deutsch is "Ich mag X nicht" or something in that vicinity. Does this mean this kind of implication is not possible with negating lieben?

[dawn oxide]

We'd just never use it that way

It's possible, it can also be used in a different way but people just don't say that usually

[trail prism]

Thank you so much, just gotta listen yeah 🙏

[flint nimbus]

thank you! I'm a little surprised no one seems to want to recommend a book on their own, but this thread is a great gold mine regardless 🙂

[dawn oxide]

Idk, as a native I have a hard time telling which ones would be considered B level

I guess other learners would know much better

Maybe ask again later when some others are active here

[flint nimbus]

it's not really about B or C, i regret saying that now. I just meant something which isn't unnecessarily complicated, or perhaps something with relatively simple vocabulary. I feel like i'm ready to read stuff for natives that isn't super difficult, if that makes sense, even if it would be difficult. But i have a lot of ideas now. I need to make a list of stuff to read and start checking stuff off! 🙂

i should have at least 10 books now

[trail prism]

I was in B1 when the lecturer recommended Der Richter und sein Henker and I was like nope never again never passing on that trauma, so all I know are anti-recs 😂

[willow socket]

häh das ist doch ein gutes Buch. Mochtest du es nicht? Oder war es einfach zu kompliziert?

[dawn oxide]

Have you tried any so far?

[flint nimbus]

btw there was a bit of a funny exchange in that thread. Not throwing shade or anything, but someone was like i want to read something originally in german, and someone responded listen the translated stuff is also really good, kind of missing the point - it's exciting to get to read something in its original language, in a language you previously didn't know!

[flint nimbus]

yes, i've read around 28 books or so, but mostly children's books or easy german books

and started on some more, eg der Hobbit

not der kleine Hobbit btw, which it seems most german speakers read

[willow socket]

yes kind of. It's just pretty difficult to find originally-German books that aren't for kids/pre-teens which aren't "too difficult" (for B level). Translations are easier and not age-group specific. But German authors writing in German for adults use language most learners would consider difficult

[dawn oxide]

Hm, also the stories von den Brüdern Grimm? They're a bit traumatizing compared to the Disney versions LOL feel like they'd be not that hard to read but I have no idea 😭

[trail prism]

Als ich damals auf B1 war, war's ein bisschen zu kompliziert für mich, aber ich hab's überlebt und davon gelernt 😔

[willow socket]

oof okay ja das ergibt Sinn

[flint nimbus]

really want to get around to them sometime, especially the original versions

[dawn oxide]

Well try those then?.-.

[willow socket]

Dürrenmatt mit B1 lesen 😂 was für eine Aufgabe

[flint nimbus]

a part of me feels like i should become more proficient in standard modern german first

[trail prism]

icl the guy who said reading Kant in German is Dark Souls is not wrong, even my supervisor read Kant in English and he was German 💀

[flint nimbus]

reading kant in german might be fun, but... probably not this year haha

[dawn oxide]

I mean a lot of the german books we read are "old" tho

[flint nimbus]

yes, that is true

and it's for sure something i look forward to

it's part of why i want to learn german

but getting to a conversational level and being able to speak with real, modern people feels like a natural first step before diving into the historical stuff

if nothing else, that's the path most german speakers have taken

[willow socket]

I think der Vorleser (Schlink) is a book that uses not-too-crazy language but is aimed towards young-adults and adults. Also just a good book that gets you thinking.

[flint nimbus]

what's something cool about it?

ok i need to start an ideas for reading list hold on 😆

[trail prism]

I'm shamelessly cribbing off your list because I'm going through Der Marsianer at a snail's pace rn but want to imagine a future after I'm done, so thank you for asking.

[flint nimbus]

i'll try to avoid the mistake of making lists without using them 😆

[dawn oxide]

I just wonder if you'd really use books for that? If your aim is to speak with real modern people

[willow socket]

Die Geschichte und die Themen, die darin behandelt werden. Vor allem wie jüngere Deutsche (Nachkriegszeit) mit der 'Vergangenheitsschuld' umgegangen sind und wie die Verbrechen der vorherigen Generationen sie beeinflusst haben.

[trail prism]

Vielen Dank, hab’s in die Liste geschoben.

[dawn oxide]

Idk I just feel like to me it doesn't make a lot of sense to read books to become conversational 🤔 like if that's the goal

[flint nimbus]

it's not the only thing i do

[trail prism]

It's two different skillsets I'll give you that. It's actually why I struggle with colloquial German now because when I first started, my goal was to be able to read Alfred Nordmann's research papers in 2 years. I did reach it with - struggle and the need to look up a lot of things. But ask me to have a casual conversation about football on German Twitter and I struggle a lot (well getting there lol.)

[flint nimbus]

one thing i do is discuss these books with a language exchange partner i have, for example

and i watch movies and tv shows

and youtubers

actually i watch some Buchtubers 😆

[flint nimbus]

that's really cool! great to have such a goal to strive towards

and you're probably a lot closer to learn converseational german now, than you were when you started at least

[flint nimbus]

danke schön!

[dawn oxide]

Yea I didn't think that, I just mean we don't speak like we do in books usually unless it's like a very modern book about normal everyday stuff and if your aim is to talk to real people I don't think it'll help much. That was my personal experience with the languages I learned at least but if you discuss it with a partner then that's different

[flint nimbus]

there's going to be more overlap with the vocabulary and grammar, right?

[trail prism]

I do recall he also recced Hesse's Siddartha FWIW since you're looking for OG German books. I never had the chance to get to Siddartha so I can't attest to difficulty other than to comment I was in B1 at the time he dropped the rec.

[flint nimbus]

honestly started reading hesse's books in english and just didn't like them

[dawn oxide]

Yea, I mean the grammar is the same mostly, it's mostly the vocabulary

[trail prism]

Fair lol, I still gotta try it one day to see if I like 'em or not

[flint nimbus]

i find it kind of odd that the hesse books have become such pillars of german literature

[dawn oxide]

We had to read some in school and I honestly don't remember much LOL

I'll have to reread them

[willow socket]

we had to read Siddhartha in English for our German literature class (lol). I also didn't much care for it.

[dawn oxide]

Got Siddhartha, Demian and Das Glasperlenspiel somewhere

[trail prism]

He did recommend Demian, I think he pushed Siddhartha more because he saw my major and was like "ok you'll love this", ignoring I wasn't an Indian/Buddhist specialist 😂 ;;

[flint nimbus]

tbh it might help not to be, the siddharta of his work is not true to the siddharta of buddhism afaik

perhaps the hesse books have become such classics just because they are considered good "coming of age" existentialist kind of books for teenagers

[flint nimbus]

btw my "german goal", as far as having a kind of more tangible milestone to look forward to is der herr der ringe atm. Maybe a bit funny to have a translation as a goal, but anyway

[trail prism]

Good luck with it! Insanely fun goal to have! I just want to get back my old proficiency then look into expanding it from there 👍

[flint nimbus]

thank you! I started with der hobbit. It's difficult but doable. But i suspect der herr der ringe is a bit more difficult. And also a lot longer

[rustic dock]

it’s a great translation

c;

[flint nimbus]

you're probably not going to like this, since you speak of translation in the singular, but i'm reading the krege translation 😆

[vagrant sedge]

Hi!
Right now, my German level is around A2, and I feel totally lost. I’m not sure what I should do next. I think listening to music and starting to watch some series would be nice, but other than that, I have no idea.
I would like to reach at least B1 by the end of this year. Does anyone have any recommendations for books or ideas on how to practice vocabulary, grammar, listening, and writing?
Thank you!

[icy flax]

Das ist deren Problem
Das ist ihr Problem

Mein Kolleg sagt immer den ersten, wenn er sich auf die Leute einer anderen Firma bezieht. Warum nicht "ihr" sagen? Schlicht und einfach, weil es von der Aussprache her auf vieles (eine Frau, ein Sie oder mehrere Leute) beziehen kann?

Auch dazu, was suche ich genau, um es zu verstehen, was für eine grammatikalische Klasse dieses "deren" hat? Im normalen Fall wäre ein "deren" als Relativpronomen im Genitiv einzuordnen.

[plush pelican]

Ist das nicht dasselbe Phänomen wie "der" statt "er" usw?

[icy flax]

Ich weiß nicht.

Das ist dessen Problem
Hab ich hingegen nimmer gehört, du?

[plush pelican]

Ich lebe nicht in Deutschland 🤷‍♂️

[icy flax]

Ich schätze, das macht er nur zu verdeutlichen, dass es um eine Mehrzahl von Person/eine Gruppe geht.

Ich frag ihn nicht, weil er als Deutsch selbst wohl kaum Ahnung haben muss

[whole portal]

nimmer 😭

[flint nimbus]

one simple thing to do is simply to systematically work through lecture series from this site https://learngerman.dw.com/en/learn-german/s-9528. Nico's Weg is especially popular on this server

[plush pelican]

Nicos Weg has a B1 course, to be clear: https://learngerman.dw.com/de/nicos-weg/c-36519718

[plush pelican]

A2 is still quite low to watch shows/read books, you need resources targeted specifically at learners, things that use a restricted set of vocab so they don't overwhelm you

Working on your vocabulary is quite important for both reading and listening; you cannot recognize a word if you don't know it to begin with

Anki is a free flashcard app where people have pre-made decks you can download for German vocab, for example: https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1586166030

There are these like "reader" books aimed for people at A1, A2, B1, but they cost money: https://www.klett-sprachen.de/deutsch-leichter-lesen/r-1/663#reiter=titel&niveau=A0

Nachrichtenleicht is news in simplified language, that's free: https://www.nachrichtenleicht.de/

Also if you search YouTube, there are videos aimed at your level, like search "Deutsch lernen durch hören a2-b1"

There's also a lot of channels talking about grammar, for example: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKCEuz6wxDQkgF3lXQTOq7KhWbh6Oao4G

[flint nimbus]

btw what you could do for nico's weg, if you think you have already covered everything in a1, is to just watch the a1 part as a movie on youtube, then start the course as a course at a2

i love simplified german books and such!

makes it feel a bit more real

now, about that list... do you think i should order my book reading ideas list in terms of rough expected difficulty? 🤔

i personally enjoyed harry - gefangen in der zeit, btw

it's also a course on that site

and i thought it was very fun. There are less exercises, which could be advantage or disadvantage

[plush pelican]

I mean, do whatever keeps you reading, is the main thing

In the beginning, you're going to be super lost and constantly looking up words

it will be quite challenging

[flint nimbus]

rather than making lists? 😆

[plush pelican]

I tried reading Harry Potter at B1 and couldn't make it past the first like 5 pages of description

[flint nimbus]

this isn't the beginning of my reading journey, but i get you

yeah b1 is a bit of a tricky stage for this

[plush pelican]

My first actual book was a shitty Krimi detective book my brother bought me from Köln, which was written entirely in present tense. This helped me get into reading, because so much Präteritum is difficult starting out.

[flint nimbus]

the easy german books are getting too easy, and also a bit boring, but the real books are a bit too difficult

[flint nimbus]

believe it or not, i was just looking for shitty krimi books! 😆

[plush pelican]

then I had some Guided Reader stuff: https://www.amazon.de/Learning-German-through-Storytelling-Baumgartner-ebook/dp/B01LB6VTLK

Then I jumped straight into reading Fantasy novels, which in hindsight was a mistake, with how I was looking up multiple words per page

[flint nimbus]

but you enjoyed it, right?

i mean that's the thing

it's easy to call stuff mistakes, but of course the reading isn't going to be ideal at first

[plush pelican]

it also strongly depends on the book: I have read a Cozy Fantasy book where I looked up 1 word per page, and a Warhammer 40k book where I was looking up 4.5 words per page

[flint nimbus]

what was the cozy fantasy book?

[plush pelican]

Spellshop

[flint nimbus]

4.5 words per page really isn't a lot tbh

[plush pelican]

It is when the book is 400 pages and you're spending 30+ seconds every time you stop to look up a word

4.5 x 400 = 1,800 words

[flint nimbus]

it's true it will take a long time to get through the book

maybe i'll try to find a book i can read to the end tonight

been weeks since i finished a book

[plush pelican]

Right. Still, it was more like I was enduring the books rather than enjoying them at first. I've read 21 books in German now, and it's still more difficult than reading in English

[flint nimbus]

i've read more books!

but pretty much only very easy and short books

[plush pelican]

My books are almost all Fantasy novels that are 400+ pages long, 😅

[flint nimbus]

some books i could finish in an hour, and i'm not a fast reader

like 30 pages with big text and pictures 😆

cool! Like i wrote before, my long term goal is lord of the rings in german, so fantasy books would be interesting!

i started with der hobbit but it's a bit tough

4.5 words per page would be very light compared to this 😆

[plush pelican]

How many words per page are you looking up?

[flint nimbus]

not sure, it also depends how close of a reading i'm doing, like do i try to understand every word, or only what's necessary to mostly understand what's going on?

some pages i didn't have to look up anything, some pages have been very slow

some pages over 10 words probably

[plush pelican]

I was incredibly pedantic in the beginning, looking up absolutely every word that I didn't know, even if I could guess the meaning from context

I was spending more time in the dictionary than in the book

[flint nimbus]

yeah, probably not the best idea

might be better to do something else then

[plush pelican]

That made it not fun, but I think it did help me long-term to have a better base of understanding

[flint nimbus]

gtg, i'll be back later

[flint nimbus]

did you like these? Like were they good reads, regardless of the language?

[flint nimbus]

i'd be interested in one of these, that could prepare me for tolkien, probably with easier language

[plush pelican]

They're Krimis, which I'm not a fan of the Genre, but they were very helpful for the level I was at

[plush pelican]

like I said, Spellshop was much easier than some others

In general, I think if it's more Urban Fantasy or Romantasy or something based closer to real life rather than Epic Fantasy, I think it'll be easier reading

[flint nimbus]

yeah i guess

have you tried neverending story?

[plush pelican]

Yes, but again it's not really my kind of story. It's more Fairy Tale than Fantasy, it gives me the ick in an Uncanny Valley sort of way

[flint nimbus]

do you think tolkien is also a bit fairy tale-y?

[plush pelican]

Idk

Honestly it's been a long time since I read Tolkien

[wispy yarrow]

Maybe

[plush pelican]

Ich hatte sie seit jenem ersten Abend in Daretana nicht gesehen, aber sie sah ziemlich genauso aus, wie ich sie in Erinnerung hatte: hochgewachsen, ernst, spartanisch, ins Schwarz der Legion gekleidet.

Why in + Akk?

This feels like basically the same question as before, I think

in etwas (Akk) gebunden

[dawn oxide]

What does Akkusativ mean with prepositions other than "movement"

Are there other words as well that describe it

[plush pelican]

Yeah, idk

LOL

Hammer's German Grammar using a lot of words to say, " 🤷‍♂️ "

[dawn oxide]

Lol

Guess it's just idiomatic then

[spiral ravine]

@neat nova
finde ich soweit akzeptabel, bei den Zitaten am anfang kannst du im zitierstil varieren und wichtig, die eigene meinung kommt in einen eigenen teil und darf nirgens anders durchrutschen

wollte es nicht im mainchat posten, also hier

[neat nova]

Ich gebe zu, dass die Zitaten sehen lwk hässlich aussehen, ich verändere das später

Ich war mir unsicher, ob ich mit der Nutzung eine Parenthese irgendwie meine eigene Meinung reineutschen konnte

Aber angeblich nt

[spiral ravine]

würde ich nicht riskieren^^

[neat nova]

Ich frage meine facharbeit betreuerin um sicher zu sein

[sharp tiger]

I managed to finish the first two books it was pretty challenging but I guess it was also rewarding. Instead of continuing the series I am testing now "er ist wieder da". I gotta admit I am looking up more words now 🙂

[trail prism]

Unsure if it helps but this is what I got down RE: my earlier question

"Ich bin derjenige, der ihn (?) zur Aufgabe gezwungen hat." The problem is I can't make out the rest of the context and I swear I heard "habe" at the end.

Is this likely to just be simply hat, case closed, or is there some odd Kon 1 world here?

[placid veldt]

Hallo! Ich habe eine Frage😁 Was ist deine best trick für Deutsch lernen? I an trying to get to a1 as quick as possible and I am close but feel disappointed that it didnt go as planned. So far I am learning by the apo “Deutsch a1” which is super helpful! But what would be the recommendations to memorise better? Is it really just flashcards? 😔

[sharp tiger]

pick up a graded reader book and build your vocabulary from there

I guess it is pretty straight forward because you can set the pace

[placid veldt]

Yeah i saw that recommendation in reddit too so i’ll try put ☺️☺️ thank youuuu
I thinkw reading you can at least reread and see what you learnt

[willow socket]

question on native speakers (or anyone who knows):
my german partner always corrects me if I say something like "Ich vergesse, wie der Film heißt" to mean "I forget what the movie is called". Apparently it should be "Ich habe vergessen, wie der Film heißt".
Is this correct? Or is 'ich vergesse, wie der Film heißt' normal and correct?

[rustic dock]

yes

she is correct

it’s an anglicism on your part

[willow socket]

thank you @night dagger

[rustic dock]

i think it’s a uniquely english (maybe even american) thing to use forget like that. it’s not considered a process where your not knowing something happens in the middle of it, but a completed (subconscious) action causing your ignorance

i had trouble learning this the other way around lmao

it always sounded wrong to me in english but i think i remember someone telling me it’s considered a process and therefore correct

[flint nimbus]

surely "i forget" is kind of slangy? Like it's not necessary to say that?

[rustic dock]

i think „i forgot“ is also completely correct, but it might have a different connotation

[night dagger]

i've only claimed that i hear this in day to day usages of the language

[flint nimbus]

i have forgotten, would be the most natural imo

[plush pelican]

Question: What can be changed to make it correct while keeping it in present tense?

For example: "Ich vergesse immer, wie der Film heißt"

Is that correct?

Can you add some other type of adverb to make it correct?

[rustic dock]

it is already correct

[night dagger]

i can't prove it of course, beyond the examples i've provided - you are free to do your own research

[rustic dock]

but the meaning of this is that even after remembering, you keep forgetting

[night dagger]

but "ich vergesse, ob ..." is something that ive heard quite often

[rustic dock]

never heard that personally

[night dagger]

and use myself, but that's no substantiation of course

[plush pelican]

I'm confused. I thought you said "Ich vergesse, wie der Film heißt" is an Anglicism and therefore not correct?

[rustic dock]

it is

„immer“ is the load bearing word in your example

[willow socket]

I also do not hear it from native speakers, and have painstakingly trained myself so that now I cringe even if I say it 😂

[rustic dock]

immer implies repitition

you can repeatedly forget something, which makes the use of vergessen there permissible

but the act of not remembering something due to having forgotten it, is not a process in the present, but a completed action in the past (the forgetting part)

[plush pelican]

I guess I didn't formulate my question well enough, and then your answer was confusing.

I was asking

1. Is the example sentence with the Häufigkeitsangabe "immer" correct?

2. instead of adding a Häufigkeitsangabe, can you add other adverbs, and would they similarly make it correct?

[rustic dock]

ohhh

hmmm

[plush pelican]

For example: Montags vergesse ich, dass ich das Auto tanken muss.

[rustic dock]

that’s permissible

[plush pelican]

Im Park vergesse ich, wo sich der Ausgang befindet

[rustic dock]

but it also semantically implies a repeated action

[plush pelican]

Wegen meiner Schlaflosigkeit vergesse ich, wo sich meine Schlüssel befinden.

[rustic dock]

other than „ich vergesse, wie der film heißt“

[rustic dock]

also repeated action

[night dagger]

how do yall feel about published texts, is that enough of a credible source?
https://www.wunderweib.de/eine-nacht-ueber-den-daechern-130130.html

"Ich vergesse, ob Menschen draußen auf uns warten, meine Gedanken sind wie entführt."

[willow socket]

I also wanted to point out that in at least 1 of the examples you gave, it is being used differently. i.e. truly in the present tense. If "ich vergesse, dass er aus Lautsprechern kommt", it's happening in the present tense, it isn't like I can't remember because I forgot.
I imagine the other example is similar. It's about boxing, and while I cannot see the context because paywall, it's entirely possible he's actually talking about forgetting in the moment

[plush pelican]

@rustic dock Is this sentence correct?

ich vergesse, dass er aus Lautsprechern kommt

[rustic dock]

huh?

[night dagger]

see the above example, also feel free to find more examples lol

[willow socket]

"guter sound bedeutet für mich, dass ich vergesse, dass er aus lautsprechern kommt" (full context)

[rustic dock]

besides that being abominable writing, i think this particular context is different

[willow socket]

but you see the difference, right?

[rustic dock]

that’s fine yeah

[night dagger]

yes of course\

[rustic dock]

this lends itself to the tense used in that story telling though

this is not a thing you would casually exclaim

[night dagger]

mein senf dazu: "ich vergesse [immer], ob ..." so kann man sich rausreden

[rustic dock]

there are several things happening there

[plush pelican]

"vergessen" steht da also im Präsens nur, weil die gesamte Geschichte im Präsens geschrieben ist?

[rustic dock]

the story is written in the present tense in short sentences as a stylistic choice to make it seem more tense and claustrophobic (/atmospheric i suppose), and her use of „ob“ there is to imply uncertainty, because „dass“ would imply she knows

but i don’t think outside of story telling this is a thing people would say

actually, it’d be illogical to day that

[night dagger]

but you have already claimed that they do

you said it was an anglicism

[rustic dock]

if you can tell someone you are currently forgetting something, you are aware of it and it cannot count as forgetting

[plush pelican]

But

[rustic dock]

his personal anglicism, not an anglicism germans use

[plush pelican]

"Bist du Amerikaner? Ich vergesse"

There I am aware that I don't know it

[rustic dock]

not permissible

[plush pelican]

that doesn't change that I still don't know it

[rustic dock]

you are forgetting it as we speak?

lucidly?

[plush pelican]

In English, you would in fact say, "I forget"

in present tense

is the issue

[willow socket]

we stoopid

[plush pelican]

Ich werde deinen Namen vergessen.

That works, right?

[rustic dock]

and that does not mean something like „i tend to forget and coincidentally i don’t know now“

but really just „i don’t know right now because i have forgotten“

[rustic dock]

you can try 😏

yes

[night dagger]

ich bleib bei der Aussage , in meinem alltag kommt das defintiv vor, sei es als Anglizismus/Umgangssprache, was auch immer

[plush pelican]

so:

• There are some adverbs that can make it work in present tense, but they tend to change the meaning to be a repeating action.
• You can predict that in the future you will forget

But

• you are almost never actually in the process of forgetting in the present moment

[rustic dock]

ah hold on i think an important difference here is that german lacks the continuous aspect (or the clear separation from simple present thereof) for this to make sense in german

[rustic dock]

mit „immer“ ja

[plush pelican]

Ich vergesse gerade, wie er aussieht. Ich habe Demenz 🙁

[night dagger]

auch wenn es nicht gesagt wurde

kann daraus geschlossen werden

[rustic dock]

ich habe es jedenfalls noch nie gehört

[night dagger]

nein

[rustic dock]

ahhhh ich weiß nur noch zu 17% wie er aussieht

15…

12…

[plush pelican]

Wenn es ein Roboter wäre, dessen Gedächtnis gerade gelöscht wird?

oder wie im Film "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind"?

https://tenor.com/view/eternal-sunshine-of-spotless-mind-gif-5037716

[night dagger]

geiler film

[rustic dock]

hmm dann vielleicht

[plush pelican]

@rustic dock Stellen wir dir immer Fragen, die dir ansonsten nie aufgefallen wären?

eingefallen?

[unique trench]

You sly dog

[plush pelican]

I still don't understand why it's "eingefallen" there

I only knew that from Sprachgefühl from having read similar sentences

the logic of it still escapes me

Because to me it seems like it should be "auffallen" based on descriptions from before

[unique trench]

I'm thinking of it like, there wasn't an outside stimulus causing you to specifically think of it?

In a way

[plush pelican]

These are questions about things we're realizing, we are realizing, "Wait, there are only certain times when you can use 'vergessen' in the present tense"

[plush pelican]

but

[unique trench]

It wouldn't have come to mind, if you hadn't presented a problem

[plush pelican]

ALL thoughts are dependent on outside stimulus

You cannot have a thought without at some point having had an outside stimulus

we are not brains in vats

[unique trench]

Yeah I don't know. I feel like I can sort of understand it but not really explain why the stimuli are different

[willow socket]

you aren't realizing the questions. There's nothing you're looking at or examining which makes them apparent.

[plush pelican]

we were examining Yuhu's sentence

and mine

[willow socket]

yes, and an dem Satz kann dir etwas auffallen. Aber die Frage fällt dir nicht auf. Sie fällt dir ein.

the questions aren't there to find

[plush pelican]

Wie gesagt: Die Logik entgeht mir immer noch

[willow socket]

Ja, es ist leichter, den Unterschied durch viele Beispiele zu verinnerlichen, als eine Logik zu finden

[plush pelican]

It's vibes all the way down

[willow socket]

luckily, although it can technically be a mistake, swapping them will not really impede understanding of what you want to say

[plush pelican]

Jeder Fehler ist mir ein Splitter im Auge

Perfektionismus nennt man das

[willow socket]

wenn das für mich gälte, wäre ich längst blind.

[plush pelican]

Das Erlernen einer Fremdsprache empfinde ich als schmerzhaft, wie man erwarten würde 🙃

finde ich schmerzhaft?

[willow socket]

für mich sieht der ursprüngliche satz schon gut aus

[night dagger]

grob gesagt: auffallen - psychische sachen mit den augen gesehen, eingefallen - ideen, konzepte, fragen, usw

also wahrnehmung gegen gedankenzeug

[plush pelican]

Wir haben doch in #questions längst darüber gesprochen, dass das eine falsche Dichotomie ist

Wenn ich z.B. ein Rentner bin und ich denke an meine Erinnerungen aus dem Zweiten Weltkrieg zurück, und ich merke, dass mein Bruder mit meiner Frau fremdgegangen sein muss, das fällt mir anscheinend auf und nicht ein, obwohl das alles in Gedanken passiert.

[night dagger]

ah ja

naja hab ja grob gesagt

[plush pelican]

»Nach sieben Tagen haben wir die Quarantäne aufgehoben, da es zu keinen weiteren Vorfällen gekommen war«, sagte Fayazi, »obwohl wir natürlich weiter versucht haben, die Natur von meines Vaters Tod zu ergründen.

Why not "die Natur vom Tod meines Vaters"?

Voranstellung wie das ist eher ungewöhnlich (außer bei Namen), oder?

[rustic dock]

creative liberty, stylistic choice

both are possible but the writer’s choice sounds more dynamic

[plush pelican]

Anas anfängliche Wut wandelte sich in zu Sorge. Sie wandte mir das Gesicht zu, als hörte sie meinen Herzschlag, und überlegte für einen Moment.

in zu Sorge?

[willow socket]

is it a translation? Or original?

[plain umbra]

My guess is... they changed their mind about which preposition to use, but forgot to delete the old one.

[rustic dock]

did a german write this?

this seems like either terrible machine translation from english or a mistake a native just wouldn't make

[plain umbra]

How would you write the sentence?

[plush pelican]

It's a translation of an English original book

But it says it was translated by 2 professional German translators

[willow socket]

i think they just had a brain fart and translated in to as in zu

mistakes slip through even in native texts

[plush pelican]

Jakob und Karla Schmidt

[rustic dock]

to me it seems like this is what you would get from the worst machine translation software if you input an english sentence where the writer wrote "into" separately like "in to"

[plain umbra]

But is it just the preposition being doubled that's the issue? Or the whole sentence?

[plush pelican]

Same book. Seems like maybe they're getting in "English brain" too much

[rustic dock]

generally the sentence, i wouldn't use "wandeln" there at all, it also seems like a translation from "turn in to[sic]"

[willow socket]

wandelte sich in Sorge um (?)

[rustic dock]

i don't think it matters much what i would write, but personally, "umwandeln" seems like something only a foreigner would write, i personally would use "umschlagen"

[plain umbra]

I don't really think the "in zu" thing is as big a deal as that. Native speakers really do make mistakes like that all the time when writing. It may not even be a translation error at all but just an extra word that the auto-check didn't highlight for some reason.

[rustic dock]

or something similar idk

[plain umbra]

Just think how often people write things like "and and" in texts.

[rustic dock]

no lmao that particular combination sounds very foreign

[plush pelican]

It's my favorite game all over again: "Is this a mistake, or some new grammar thing I've been unaware of until this very moment"

[plain umbra]

If you actually read it properly and notice the mistake like Argus did, yeah. If you're the one writing it and looking at thousands of words/sentences, then it's really not so obvious.

[willow socket]

is it a new-ish book @plush pelican, asking bc AI lol

[plush pelican]

2024

[willow socket]

aha

questions questions

[plush pelican]

Remember we had this conversation before

[rustic dock]

i just really doubt a professional translator would go about that sentence in that way at all

[plush pelican]

»Bei Ihren Fragen geht es um eine Verseuchung«, sagte Topirak. »Nicht war, Sir?«

Even I know this is a mistake

[rustic dock]

it looks and sounds so very english

i simply don't believe it

[willow socket]

tippfehler?

[rustic dock]

yeah this is terrible

but the typo makes it look human

[plain umbra]

Again, yes, if they were focussing on just this sentence alone. But this is a whole book. Mistakes happen. Even with the best possible translators.

[plush pelican]

»Ich frage mich, wie viele Schrecken du in deinem Kopf stecken hast, Tuwey.«

This works? Stecken, not gesteckt?

[rustic dock]

if this was translated by a human, it wasn't a native speaker of german

[willow socket]

yeah stecken is normal I think

[rustic dock]

no this one is natural

[plush pelican]

It said it was translated by a husband/wife translation team, Jakob und Karla Schmidt

[plain umbra]

It could absolutely be a human native German speaker who just overlooked the sentence.

It's impossible to draw any conclusion like that it was AI or a non-native speaker, based on one single mistake.

[rustic dock]

»Bei Ihren Fragen geht es um eine Verseuchung«, sagte Topirak. »Nicht war, Sir?«
this one too sounds like a very literal translation though

like a machine would do, but maybe they just suck at translating

[willow socket]

in the end a mistake is a mistake and there's no way to know how it got there without asking the translators. Different translators also have different styles, more or less literal.

[plush pelican]

They have definitely made the decision to leave "Sir" untranslated. I've seen several German translations do that

[rustic dock]

this is normal for german translations of (mostly american) english

it's a purely stylistic choice

[plush pelican]

Why does it sound very literal?

[rustic dock]

the sentence just sounds clunky

not only the sentence construction but also "Verseuchung" sounds like someone looked up a word in a dictionary for a lack of better terms

[plush pelican]

I'll quote a random, longer passage. See how it feels:

»Oh nein. All das – die Geburt wichtiger Persönlichkeiten oder ihre Todesdaten – das sind nur Vorwände zum Feiern. Menschen feiern, weil sie sich verzweifelt ihrer Zugehörigkeit versichern wollen, und um sich an das Gefühl von Lebendigkeit zu erinnern. Es sind meine Hallen, in die jeder Offizier Talagrays kommen und den Sängern zuhören kann, wenn sie ihre Geschichten erzählen ‒, von den ersten Khanum, die ins Tal der Titanen gekommen sind. Oder von den Vollendeten Prifictos, den ersten, deren Verstand verändert wurde. Oder vom dritten Imperator Ejelgi Daavir und seinem Marsch auf dem Pfad der Titanen.« Ein seltsamer, ungesunder Glanz trat in ihre Augen. »Wissen Sie, mein Ur-Urgroßvater war dabei. Er gehörte zu den Legionen, die die Bestien töteten und als Erste den Weg zum Meer freimachten, und dafür erhielt er unser erstes Lehen. Das war noch vor den Kantonen. Vor der Errichtung der Mauern des Dritten Rings.«

Ein Moment seltsamen Unbehagens folgte auf ihre Worte. »Sehr beeindruckend, Ma’am«, sagte ich schließlich. »Können Sie mir erzählen, wann sich ihr Vater während der Feier wo aufgehalten hat?«

[plush pelican]

A large plot point revolves around plagues, both natural and man-made

Or whatever you call them, idk

[rustic dock]

i'm honestly unsure

[plush pelican]

They say Verseuchung, I assumed that was plague

I haven't read the original English

[rustic dock]

but in any case i think it's quite poor style

[rustic dock]

that's just Seuche, if the black plague (pest) or bubonic plague is meant, then Pest or Schwarzer Tod

Verseuchung means the plagueing of something

[plush pelican]

I think the English word used was "contagions"

Based on the English description of the book

[rustic dock]

it just feels weird to me to express it like that, although that word is not technically wrong at all

[plain umbra]

Do you know if they call it that in that lore usually?

[rustic dock]

maybe it was made up for this specific context

[plush pelican]

I haven't read the English original

[rustic dock]

https://www.dwds.de/wb/Verseuchung?o=verseuchung

[plush pelican]

But the blurb for the English book mentions "contagions"

[rustic dock]

it is apparently a somehwat used word

[plain umbra]

Yeah, I mean like maybe that's the German term used in-universe.

So it might be weird in a real world context but makes sense for the setting?

[rustic dock]

this is what i'm thinking

[plush pelican]

All I know is that's the word used in this book, which zuzu is apparently unhappy with

[plush pelican]

How would you translate "contagion(s)"?

[plain umbra]

Yeah but the difference is, whether it was the choice of the translators, or whether they went with a convention.

[rustic dock]

i would have to think about that

[plush pelican]

A key plot point is a very contagious plant-based disease

[rustic dock]

this is generally a difficult thing to translate, german doesn't even necessarily distinguish "venomous" and "poisonous"

and "contagious" is also not a unique concept

so something based on Seuche or Gift is kind of the only option

but both sound unfaithful to the original distinction

[plush pelican]

It spreads easily and leaves behind flecks of mold or spores or something on the paper walls

[rustic dock]

i guess "Ansteckung" is the most common word to express that, but the connotation is different from "contagion"

which might be why they chose Verseuchung

it's kind of tricky

the way i understand it, "contagious" is a negatively connotated thing, in the sense that it's inherently toxic and aggressive

while "Ansteckung" is more passive and almost neutral

but "Verseuchung," while inherently negative, also sounds more passive than contagion

[plush pelican]

And did this passage seem unnatural to you?

[rustic dock]

well it's an obvious translation and i sort of don't like it, but it's not incredibly unnatural

[plush pelican]

What makes it obvious?

[rustic dock]

it's hard to put into words

but it feels like an ambitious compromise to possibly keep the tone of the original and to be "good enough" but not much more

[plush pelican]

Are the sentence structures too similar to English?

The word choice? The style?

[rustic dock]

i don't know a lot about sociolinguistics but i think there are language-specific ways to tell a story

as in, even before you told me so, i knew the original is probably english

which has got to be telling of something

[plush pelican]

Grob gesagt wie unterscheiden sich der englische Stil des Erzählens und der deutsche Stil?

[rustic dock]

i don't have it layed out

[plush pelican]

Ein grober Eindruck?

[rustic dock]

i would also have to think a while about that and read a longer english text to draw a comparison, this is purely rooted in intuition

[plush pelican]

Rough impression, does that work in German?

[rustic dock]

did you come up with that yourself?

[plush pelican]

Yes

[rustic dock]

because it's both correct and fully idiomatic

[plush pelican]

Whee 🥳

Sometimes German and English do match up

[rustic dock]

yeah for sure

is "grob" a frequently learnt adjective

[plush pelican]

You ever read a book in English and then read it in German, or vice-versa?

With Kindle, it's easy to buy 2 versions of most modern books

[rustic dock]

mmmmmm

only one that i can think of

[plush pelican]

Fixed phrase "grob gesagt" reminded myself of it

[rustic dock]

but the original was japanese

however, both translations seemed quite distinct from one another in tone

the book was Norwegian Wood by Haruki Murakami (German title is "Naokos Lächeln")

the german one had a less casual tone and i felt like the sentences were more complex

the english one had a way lighter feeling

it's very slight but to me it almost seemed like reading two different books

another example would be the film The Social Network by David Fincher

i watched it in both languages and in german not only did Jesse Eisenberg's role (Mark Zuckerberg) seem more autistic, it also sounded a lot more serious, and certain scenes felt like they bore much more weight than in the original

again, this is really hard to put into words

and lest not forget that cultural differences in both actions and saying play into this

so there might very well be an underlying issue not just in the translation of words, but of culture aswell

[rustic dock]

that's an indicator for your correct understanding of the word

[plush pelican]

How often do you read Fantasy books?

I ask because the Fantasy genre seems much more active in English than in German, and a lot of books are translated from English into German

[rustic dock]

fantasy as in high fantasy or just fictional novels?

ah ok

[plush pelican]

The fantasy genre

[rustic dock]

hmm not that often

i played quite a few roleplaying games where that lexical register is employed in full effect and i read some fantasy novels

[plush pelican]

I wonder if the peculiarities of the fantasy genre affect things

[rustic dock]

for sure

[plush pelican]

Particularly as Germany doesn't seem to have a strong pool of its own fantasy authors

[rustic dock]

not internationally recognized ones no

but book stores usually have a section for so called "Historische Romane" which are not actually classical novels, but rather set in a historical setting

they are quite popular with old women i think

personally i think it's lazy slop but eh

[plush pelican]

"fantasy" is its own genre, is it not demarcated in German bookstores?

Or is it at least put in with sci-fi?

[rustic dock]

don't hate me for this - especially because he was a linguist - but i liked tolkiens books way better in german than in english

[rustic dock]

no no of course it is

but linguistically i think both amount to the same

[plush pelican]

I think there's bound to be a large difference between a target audience of old women and a target audience of young men and women

[rustic dock]

well high fantasy is usually set in medieval-based settings

and therefore the lexical register is pretty much the same

alongside some grammatical quirks

[plush pelican]

Fantasy has in the past 10 years become very influenced by videogames and their terminology

[rustic dock]

also their insisting on using "Ihr" for an honorific instead of "Sie"

[plush pelican]

LitRPG is a subgenre literally based on the premise of being sucked into a video game and then dealing with the rules of a video game to survive

[rustic dock]

well yeah, it almost has clearly defined rules and tropes

even worldly things of those vastly different universes

take for example Tolkien's "Mithril ore"

it's found in many, many fantasy universes

[plush pelican]

What I'm saying is, I doubt the historical novels are influenced by videogame terminology

A point of divergence

[rustic dock]

what would be an example of that

and i mean sure

[plush pelican]

It depends on if we're talking LitRPG or not

LitRPG literally uses video game rules explicitly

[rustic dock]

i think someone told me about an anime that does that

[plush pelican]

But even non-LitRPG will use things like mana, spells, health, copper/silver/gold as common levels of money, etc

[rustic dock]

but i don't watch anime so no clue

[rustic dock]

ah i see

but most of those things are rooted in ancient concepts

that's where video games got them from

though the specifics of 100 copper pieces to a silver piece, and 100 silver pieces to a gold piece, is very video-game-ish, yeah

[plush pelican]

I read a fantasy book recently talking about expending a 1st level spell, which was very clearly derived from D&D rules for spell slots

[rustic dock]

peep this for example

[plush pelican]

Historical novels aren't talking about mana, though

[rustic dock]

of course not

[plush pelican]

Well, I'm saying I think there is a difference in language between them and fantasy novels

[rustic dock]

i read quite a few shadowrun novels, shadowrun being a tabletop rpg with a rich universe that is a combination of sci-fi and high fantasy

it's by definition cool as shit, but it employs a lot of those concepts all at once

[rustic dock]

yeah

those specific words sure

but i meant more the general gist of it

emulating medieval speech in a modern language

by either a lot of relexes or borrowings from actual historical language

[plush pelican]

Relexes?

[rustic dock]

replacing words

[plush pelican]

Btw, the book I was quoting earlier is a fantasy Sherlock Holmes

[rustic dock]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relexification?useskin=vector

[plush pelican]

So its language usage probably is mimicking Holmes stories

In the English original, I mean

[rustic dock]

essentially creating an idiolect to create a certain atmosphere

[plush pelican]

Verseuchung does sound idiotic

Just joking

[rustic dock]

it's just not entirely the same as contagion and a rather rare word

[plush pelican]

It made sense to me in the moment, but I don't have the Sprachgefühl of a Muttersprachlerin

[rustic dock]

is using "not" first there considered wrong or changing the meaning of the bit behind "and"? would it be solved by a comma before and or would you put the negated part last to make it clear the other part is positive

i just realized it reads a bit ambiguous in english

if you were to use only one verb

[plush pelican]

No, it has no impact after and

(not entirely)

[rustic dock]

o ok