questions-2

[glass venture]

Thank you so much, now I get it
May I ask, what's with this expression 'welche weg'? I can only translate it as a question part as if 'where do you want it to be delivered?' is applied

[left salmon]

its exactly like the english construction
ich pack - ill put,
dir -for you,
welche - some,
weg - aside

welche weg is no "expression"

[eternal arrow]

I have a german listening (with and without videos) and reading test (B2) in exactly 9 days and I dont know how to prepare at all. I'm dutch so the language is a bit similar but I still have a hard time with reading and listening, any tips of what i can do for the next days to prepare? Test duration: 2h

[night dagger]

is it a telc or goethe test or similar

[eternal arrow]

what does this indicate?

[night dagger]

it indicates how you might prepare

[eternal arrow]

like the meaning of telc and goethe

[night dagger]

oh, those are standarized tests

[eternal arrow]

It's for school so im unaware

highschool

[night dagger]

without knowing the format personally, its hard to know how you should prepare -- thats something i would clarify with your teacher

[woven valve]

Broskis is this the correct way to label measurements for a jacket/sweater. any akwwardness?

[night dagger]

you could look up hearing comprehension tests though

[eternal arrow]

my teacher said watching movies german movies/series with german desc. would be good, would that be the right way atleast for the listening part

[eternal arrow]

what's the difference, i do know what kind of texts we're getting but just not the meaning of those two types

[delicate tiger]

seems fine

[woven valve]

Dankedanke

[hushed dawn]

beschwichtigen und beruhigen,
that is to sooth vs to calm down right ?
Sie sind austauschbar ?

[dawn oxide]

I never really hear anyone say beschwichtigen tbh, I'd just use beruhigen

Beschwichtigen is more like to appease

[night dagger]

like die hohen Tiere beschwichtigen

[brave flint]

Kann man seit mit Uhrzeiten benutzen?

Ich bin seit 4 Uhr wach.

[fervent kernel]

ja

[green moth]

Ebenso andere zeitliche Abläufe.
Seit vier Jahren wohne ich nun hier.
Seit ich aufgestanden bin, brummt mein Schädel. (Slang für: ...habe ich Kopfschmerzen.)

[obsidian raptor]

How does 'zum Trinken' work in the situation "Und zum Trinken nehme ich einen wasser."? Zum is the combination of zu and dem, so it is 'to drink' right? But Trinken is capitalized like a noun, but is also conjugated like the second verb in a sentence (I forget what the second verb is called specifically), and seeming to be in the second position (not sure though).

[willow socket]

all verbs can become nouns by placing 'das' before the infinitive form: das Trinken = the act of drinking.
zum + nominalised infinitive is a special construction which basically expresses 'for the purpose of' or 'to'. So: Trinken is capitalised because it's a noun, and it looks like the 'second verb' because it is the infinitive form

[fair scaffold]

"ein Wasser"

[obsidian raptor]

Ok, danke

[sacred ice]

How is G pronounced in German

I here gay and geeh when I look it up on YouTube

[willow socket]

the letter is pronounce like 'gay'

[fair scaffold]

But with a bit less of the y sound. So more like you only pronaunce the y half as much.

[balmy haven]

<g> can at times simply be /g/ but at the end of words, it can also at times be pronounced adjacent to "ch" (ipa /x/), such as the words neunzig or lustig

[fathom raft]

Yeah think like a Scottish person saying gay
Geeeeh

[limpid trout]

why does the adverb "herweg" not seem to exist, at least according to the dictionaries i've been looking at?

to counter "hinweg", i mean

[mossy pilot]

there's "auf dem Herweg" as an adverbial phrase

idk beyond that

[teal cliff]

Der Hinweg?

[mossy pilot]

the adverb rather than the noun

[plush pelican]

Do you mean the separable prefix?

[mossy pilot]

is this a leading question lol

[plush pelican]

It's kind of hard to tell when it's one or the other sometimes, 😅

[mossy pilot]

e.g. über etw. hinweg

or: hinweg mit dir!

adverb meaning away is what i'm getting at

[dawn oxide]

probably cause it wouldn't make any sense, what would that even mean?

[teal cliff]

"come here"

Like to the speaker

zuwa in Bavarian but I can't explain myself right now lmao

[dawn oxide]

It has 'weg' in it though, here away? idk just makes no sense to me

[teal cliff]

Oh true, away from here, dauni in Bavarian then 😭😭😭

[teal cliff]

Wait.... no, omg I can't think

You're standing over there but move even further away

right

weird ahh concept lmao

[dawn oxide]

dauni? 😆 nie gehört

[teal cliff]

Bist ja wahrscheinlich auch kein Bayer oder Österreicher, hab ich Recht?

xD

[teal cliff]

Aber das hier wär Weida dauni...

[signal cipher]

Wenn, all dieser Reichtum ausrecht dir nicht, können wir nichts anderes tun.

Is this a proper usage?

Can I separate and emphasize all conjunctions like that

[plush pelican]

How many clauses are you trying to form here?

If it's just 2, why are you separating "wenn" from the rest of its clause?

[signal cipher]

I will say it emphasized

[plush pelican]

German doesn't insert commas based on emphasis

it inserts commas based just on grammar. It's not like English, where you can sort of insert a comma for dramatic effect

2. With a "wenn" clause, it's a Nebensatz. You have to have the verb at the end. Also, is the verb you want there "ausreichen"?

Are you trying to put "dir nicht" in the Nachfeld or something?

[plush pelican]

There, they've restarted the entire clause. Notice the Hauptsatz word order instead of a Nebensatz word order

[signal cipher]

Doesn’t it mean sufficient

[plush pelican]

to suffice, yes, but you forgot the "i"

[signal cipher]

Oh

[plush pelican]

This again feels like something, and I can't really explain it fully, but it's like the last time. The fact that there are sentences before the "weil" helps the comma there make sense.

With absolutely no sentences before it, it doesn't make sense to immediately have a comma

[signal cipher]

I thought it may emphasize.
Something like that:
Becaaaaause I can do whatever I want you know

[plush pelican]

Ask a native, but I strongly doubt you can put a comma straight after "wenn" like that, especially with absolutely nothing before it.

[timber yacht]

You absolutely can't if you want to obey the rules.

[plush pelican]

Suppose there were sentences before it. Would that make any difference?

Wir haben schon so viel für dich gemacht. Wenn, all dieser Reichtum dir nicht ausreicht, können wir nichts mehr dafür.

[signal cipher]

What about collequil (or something like that)

[timber yacht]

Nope. 🙂

[plush pelican]

I would assume no, but I want to have a clear opinion from a Native

[plush pelican]

Is "weil" an exception, then, with the commas?

[plush pelican]

can you imagine that kind of comma with any other conjunction?

It works with "aber", I think?

[signal cipher]

Sometimes we say the conjunction and pause and say rest of the sentence. Can’t I do that in written language?

[plush pelican]

Ich habe schon immer alles für dich getan, aber, ich werde nichts mehr tun. Du bist undankbar.

[signal cipher]

https://grammis.ids-mannheim.de/systematische-grammatik/1607

[timber yacht]

"Weil + Hauptsatz" is something people started to use in spoken language. It's definitely not good style. But you wouldn't use a comma after weil either.

[plush pelican]

Neuerdings (weil, das hört man ja jetzt immer öfter) wird jedoch von Grammatikern verstärkt beobachtet, dass besonders in der gesprochenen Sprache nach einigen subordinierenden kausalen Konnektoren wie "weil" oder "zumal", nach einigen adversativen Konnektoren wie "während" und nach einigen konzessiven Konnektoren wie "obwohl" oder "wobei" ein Verbzweitsatz als internes Konnekt anstelle eines Verbletztsatzes verwendet wird.

🤔

Well, to your credit @signal cipher that is roughly what you were talking about. But idk if any of that counts as actually grammatical in Hochdeutsch

a lot of things that are done colloquially aren't actually considered grammatical

[signal cipher]

I wondered would it be also valid for other conjunctions like wenn

[plush pelican]

It's not even considered valid for the conjunctions listed, 😅

if by "valid", you mean "grammatically correct"

[signal cipher]

Colloquially correct is enough for me

If it’s not gibberish it’s okay

[plush pelican]

idk about you, but my goal is to write German that Germans like, not that Germans look down upon

Btw @signal cipher

"A lot of Germans consider this kind of thing to be 'bad German'."

[signal cipher]

What about word order? Even if can’t write comma, can I write verb in position 2? To emphasizing purpose.

[plush pelican]

verb in position 2 following what conjunction?

For all normal subordinating conjunctions, absolutely not

[signal cipher]

Wenn, weil, obwohl

[plush pelican]

for "weil", colloquially you can, but it's still considered speaking sloppily

[signal cipher]

I can’t guess how would it sound. What difference would it make

[plush pelican]

If you put a verb in position 2 after "dass" or "wenn" or "obwohl", it sounds like you don't know how to speak German

A lot of English speakers, for instance, do this a lot when they're first learning Nebensätze

I've done it, 😅

[signal cipher]

Ist es Ihnen nicht wichtig, dass, ich spreche gut Deutsch?

Imagine it like an appositive

[cerulean dock]

Hello I have a question. What does ”wieder” mean? I see it in many sentences where multiple words with different meanings could be used.

[signal cipher]

He , my good friend, came here yesterday.

[tiny scaffold]

The funny thing is that you can bypass this with ''denn'' and use it just like in English but I'm so used to ''weil'' now that I can't go back 😂

[plush pelican]

I think it pretty much always means "again" or "re-", something along those lines.

[plush pelican]

I mean, it seems wrong to me, and the native speaker also said it wasn't right.

[signal cipher]

It sounds like an appositive. It seems like it works. 😞

[plush pelican]

"dass" isn't even listed on that page

[signal cipher]

What about das

[plush pelican]

Like, among the conjunctions listed on that page, doing it is considered "bad German".

"dass" isn't even there

[signal cipher]

Ist es Ihnen nicht wichtig, das, ich spreche gut Deutsch?

[plush pelican]

You mean a relative pronoun?

[plush pelican]

that's just a misspelling of "dass"

native speakers confuse "das" and "dass"

[signal cipher]

Like first using just a pronoun, than adding details separately. Like in ()

[tiny scaffold]

In speech maybe, but in written language it'd be weird

[plush pelican]

at no point did you have anything that "das" was representing as a pronoun

[signal cipher]

Peter, my old friend, ask you.

I try to create something like that

How can I

[plush pelican]

yeah, I mean that's an appositive, that works

[signal cipher]

Appositive with nebensatz

I wonder about this

[plush pelican]

There, "Peter" and "my old friend" share the same case and it's like you can swap either one out in the clause

[signal cipher]

This, my English speaking, is a very important talent.

[plush pelican]

There, "my English speaking" is like a noun, not a clause

[signal cipher]

Do we use da?
“Da ich Englisch spreche, ist das ein sehr wichtiges Talent.”

I thought it means because

[delicate tiger]

in rare cases "gegen" (z.B. "Orden wider den tierischen Ernst")

[plush pelican]

Are you talking "wieder" or "wider"?

[delicate tiger]

oops

[plush pelican]

There, it does mean "because"

"da" can do a lot of different things

there, it's like "weil"

[signal cipher]

All these searching and I turned back to secondary predicatives, appositives 😄

[plush pelican]

It feels like all this researching into extreme edge cases is making a muddle of your basic German proficiency

I've said it before: I think you'd be better off spending more time with normal German sentences, reading books, news articles, etc, rather than dealing with all these edge cases

[signal cipher]

It’s like saying buy your fish from market to a person who drinks his bear and catching his fish calmly in a shore. Or saying just take a bus to a cyclist.
I love these things. I like to search them, trying to understand them, discussing about them.

[plush pelican]

okay

[marble coral]

ohh ur still awake

[short raven]

"Ist es Ihnen nicht wichtig, daß (dass) ich gut deutsch spreche?"

[plush pelican]

Er versucht, die Grenzen der Grammatik zu erkunden. Er hat diesen Artikel (https://grammis.ids-mannheim.de/systematische-grammatik/1607) gefunden, wo man ein Komma direkt nach "weil" hinzufügt, und jetzt denkt er, vielleicht gilt das auch für andere Konjunktionen oder so.

Aber wie ich schon gesagt habe: Auch im Artikel steht, dass sowas tendenziell als "schlechtes Deutsch" angesehen wird.

[short raven]

Also daß nach "daß" oder "weil" ein Komma gesetzt wird, habe ich noch nie gehört. Ein solches Komma ist wohl eindeutig ganz schlechtes Deutsch.

[plush pelican]

Naja, schon im Artikel gibt's nichts über ein Komma nach "dass", nur nach "weil", "zumal", "während", "obwohl" und "wobei". Er geht sogar über den Artikel hinaus mit seinen Versuchen, 😅

[short raven]

Also Komma nach "weil" geht, aber Komma nach "daß" geht nicht.

Wobei ich den Verbletztsatz eigentlich gewohnt bin ohne Komma nach weil anzuhängen. Ist meiner Meinung nach irgendwie flüssiger. Ich mach dann lieber mal einen Punkt. Wie übrigens gerade eben. Ich hätte ja schreiben können: ...... gewohnt bin ohne Komma nach weil anzuhängen, weil, ist meiner Meinung nach irgendwie flüssiger.

[plush pelican]

Geht's mit den anderen genannten Konjunktionen?

[short raven]

Ja

[plush pelican]

Auch auf einer Prüfung oder so? Oder nur in der Umgangssprache?

[short raven]

Ich bin jetzt kein Deutschlehrer oder Prüfer, aber wenn es das Leibnitz-Institut für Deutsche Sprache schon so schreibt, dann wird es wohl so anerkannt sein. Ich denke aber, daß man auch im Deutschen die Sätze nicht unbedingt so sehr verschachteln sollte, sondern sich ruhig das Englische mit kurzen Sätzen so ein Bisschen zum Vorbild nehmen kann.

[signal cipher]

@short raven Danke schön

[tiny scaffold]

I'm used to using ''würden'' to express ''would'' but always knew that I could use the Konj 2 form of verbs too, but I just came across a song in which there were 3 Konj II forms I didn't recognize or have seen before

[signal cipher]

Würden is konjunktiv 2 too

[tiny scaffold]

They were: flög (fliegen), ständ (stehen), and fänd (finden). Are these in normal use or do Germans sort of just know that they exist and will recognize them when given the pronoun?

[signal cipher]

It’s konjunktiv 2 in future structure. But it is not used like standard future. Just its structure is future.

[tiny scaffold]

Ja das kenn ich, aber ich fragte nach anderen Verben

[willow socket]

Fände and Stände i would recognize immediately. Flöge with context. Assuming natives are better than me: they know they exist

[tiny scaffold]

I recognized those two from context, since ''ich'' was right next to them but otherwise I'd never seen these forms before. ''Flög'' took a bit longer to click

I mean you'd think I'd get it immediately cuz the song was called Flügel 😂

[plush pelican]

My personal experience: I've seen "fände". I've seen a different form of the simple K2 of stehen (stünde). Idk that I've ever seen "flöge"

[mossy pilot]

i've only ever seen flöge as an example of a deprecated use of the imperfect subjunctive where one would nowadays use würde

[woven valve]

yo broskis, "Peppen Sie Ihren Look ".

can you understand twaht this means?
what*
I want to say "Elevate your look"

[pulsar sand]

"Peppen Sie Ihren Look [(mit) input with what] auf"

[delicate tiger]

please ask only in one channel at a time

[lusty compass]

guys how to say ''I want to become a lawyer'' in a present tense? I thought it would be ''Ich mochte Juristin sein'' but Chatgpt is saying i should use werden but also says its not present tense? how would it be correct? A1 please, we only learned present tense yet

[delicate tiger]

"Ich will Anwalt werden"

[lusty compass]

omg thanks!! im getting ready for an oral exam tomrw so this is so helpful

practicing different topics

[mossy pilot]

werden means to become and can be used as such in the present tense, but is also used as an auxiliary verb for the future tense

[cobalt ocean]

how common is it to say kuli vs kugelschreiber for pen?

[warm lily]

(hi, nice to meet you - hope my answer helps, I am new here)
pretty common I would say. since "Kuli" is way shorter. though just saying "Stift" in general is also very prominent.

[short raven]

I would say 70 % Kuli, 30 % Kugelschreiber. "Stift" is very common too, but may also mean a "Bleistift" (lead pencil) or "Buntstift" (colored pencil).

[nova sparrow]

use Kuli and (almost) everyone understands you, but be aware it's meaning is ballpoint pen not any pen (as pointed out by @short raven ) and there is also a Filzstift (felt-tip pen).
so if would like to get any pen just ask for a Stift.

[icy flax]

Habe mich gefragt, wofür die Nachsilbe -lei steht. Die Erklärung von Wiktionary sagt mir nichts. Dieses Wort gehört dem alltäglichen Sprachgebrauch nicht, oder? Ich glaube, ich habe sie mehrmals in Geschichte und Gedicht gelesen oder auch in TV Shows gehört, wenn der Moderator was Geschichtliches ausdrücken wollte.

Derlei Unterschied gibt es bei Tieren nicht.
Derlei habe ich nicht erfahren

[fervent kernel]

ich würde sagen es ist ähnlich wie "art"

Allerlei, allerart

[icy flax]

Und empfindest du auch durch dieses -lei ein gewisses Gefühl von StoryTelling, @fervent kernel ?

Es ist keine normale Formulierung, finde ich

[fervent kernel]

Vielleicht in dem sinne, das es einfach "schönes" bzw. leicht gehobenes Deutsch ist und daher mehr von Personen verwendet die auch mit Sprache umgehen können

[icy flax]

Dat!

[fervent kernel]

ich frage mich aber auch ob es auch etwas veraltend ist, und dann könntest du schon recht haben das es eher ältere personen verwenden 🤔 in meiner generation hab ich es auf jeden fall bisher selten gehört

[dawn oxide]

Wird einfach nicht mehr so häufig verwendet

sowas wie 'allerlei' oder 'vielerlei' schon öfter

oder "zweierlei" "dreierlei" etc. wird auch viel verwendet, hast du vielleicht öfter gehört als derlei

[hushed dawn]

Hallo
Guten Abend !!!

Gibt es einen Unterschied zwischen einbeziehen und einschließen ?

schließt das Gesetz auch Jugendliche ein ?
vs
bezieht das Gesetz auch Jugendliche ein ?

Beispielsweise

[fair scaffold]

Nein, ist das gleiche. Die einzige Außnahme ist, wenn etwas z.B. in einem Schrank oder in einem Gefängnis eingeschlossen wird.

[short raven]

Es gibt Überschneidungen, bei denen man meinen kann, die beiden Wörter hätten die gleiche Bedeutung. Aber selbst dann gibt es wesentliche Unterschiede.

[short raven]

-lei als Nachsilbe steht für:

a) Fels, Schieferfels z.B. Lorelei
b) Gattungszahlwort: Einerlei, Zweierlei, Allerlei usw.

c) Worterweiterung um Art und Weise zu beschreiben
d) sonstiges wie: Ziegelei, Händelei, Knobelei oder aber Liebelei

[icy flax]

das schon

[icy flax]

Diese sind mir aber sogar fremder.. und.. da wir schon bei Nachsilben sind, was ist es mit dem "allzu"? Wenn du das sagst, denkst du einfach an eine gesteigert "zu"?

Wenn Muttersprachler auf gehitzte Diskussionen sind, merke ich, dass sie es gerne benutzen

[runic needle]

Hello guys, quick question from me. Sein Lieblingsessen ist Schweinefleisch und KFC. Or Sein Lieblingsessen sind Schweinefleisch und KFC.

[night dagger]

seine Lieblingsessen sind oder sein Lieblingsessen ist

I would go for „ist“ there but „sind“ is also technically grammatically correct as long as you use „seine“, so the plural

[willow socket]

Sind

https://blog.leo.org/2021/03/29/sind-oder-ist-nudeln-mit-pilzsauce-mein-lieblingsgericht/#:~:text=nach den Regeln der Grammatik,waren grüne Bohnen mit Speck.

[willow socket]

Usually when sein connects a singular and a plural it is conjugated for the plural.

[night dagger]

true

[runic needle]

Ok danke schön!

[merry vessel]

Hallo alle zusammen, ich weiß es nicht was bedeutet „geil“ Können sie mir helfen?🫠

[rich prism]

Dictionary

[night dagger]

faq Definition

[stoic mauve]

What does this word mean?

The best way to understand the meaning of a word is to use a dictionary. Monolingual dictionaries such as dwds.de, de.wiktionary.org and duden.de will often provide the most accurate definitions and examples for a word. If you are not yet comfortable with using a monolingual dictionary, bilingual dictionaries are also an option (dict.cc, dict.leo.org, pons.com).

The key here is to empower yourself to find the answer on your own. Using the many examples provided in dictionaries like DWDS, Wiki and Duden can help you confidently understand the word, and how to use it. If you still have trouble; don't worry! You can use #questions, #questions-2 or the #942470380692590632 to ask someone for further clarification.

[merry vessel]

Vielen Dank alle 🙏🏻

[plush pelican]

What a deeply specific grammar topic, 😅

[signal cipher]

Someone said deeply specific grammar

[lament pagoda]

Hallo zusammen wie kann ich in einer private chat voice gruppe kommen

[delicate tiger]

faq limited permissions

[stoic mauve]

How to join Voice Chat

Please read the [Roles section](#getting-started message) in #getting-started for info on how to join VC and more!

[tiny scaffold]

@tepid dawn if you have a definite article, the adjective takes -e

if the definite article is plural, then the adjective takes -en

[tiny scaffold]

Your example is correct

''der'' and ''dieser'' function the same way, as far as adjective endings are concerned

Are you a troll

[tepid dawn]

Hmm.. Okay.

[plush pelican]

You can use the same chart as from that website I linked earlier, the first chart for weak declension:

https://www.germanveryeasy.com/adjective-declension#Weak-declension

just use "dieser" instead of "der" or whatever

"diesem" instead of "dem"

etc, etc

[tepid dawn]

Right. So the determiner would take the strong declension and the adj would take the weak one.

Der kleine Hund ist mein - > Dieser kleine Hund ist mein.

[tiny scaffold]

Correct

[tepid dawn]

Alright, makes sense. Thanks

[tiny scaffold]

When we use ''mein'' to describe an object, it gains an ending to match the gender of the object

In this case it'd be ''ist meiner'' because der Hund

[plush pelican]

In other words, when "mein" is standing on its own, it's different than when it's an article in front of the noun. This difference is only noticeable in like 3 of the 16 combinations, though

[tiny scaffold]

If you're saying a feminine like ''diese kleine Blume ist mein'' then it becomes ''ist meine'' because of die Blume

[plush pelican]

https://www.germanveryeasy.com/pronouns

When "mein" is standing on its own, that is "not attributive without article"

The chart above that one on the website, "attributive or determiner", is when "mein" is in front of a noun

[tepid dawn]

Ahh I see

So Der kleine Hund ist meiner.

[plush pelican]

The difference only appears for the 3 combinations:

(Nominative, Masculine)
(Nominative, Neuter)
(Accusative, Neuter)

all other combinations look the same as when it is before a noun

[tepid dawn]

So the above sentence has the combination of Nominativ, Maskulin

What about something like:-

Die Blume ist mein. Would it be that or would it be "Die Blume ist meine". It wouldn't apply right? - because it doesn't come under any of the combinations.

[plush pelican]

"meine"

I am talking about the case of "meine", because in that sentence it is a noun with a case

and its case is "nominative"

Die Blume (Nominative) ist meine (Nominativ)

This is like:

Der Mann (Nominative) ist Arzt (Nominativ)

[tepid dawn]

I didn't quite get you.

[tiny scaffold]

Die Blume ist meine

Whatever the gender of your noun is, is reflected on ''mein'' there

[tepid dawn]

Alright.

[tiny scaffold]

Der -> meiner
Die -> meine
Das -> meines

[tepid dawn]

But i didn't exactly get the exceptions that Argus stated.

[plush pelican]

Die Blume ist meine.

There are 2 nouns in this sentence:

1. die Blume
2. meine

when you are looking at the chart and talking about "nominative case", you are talking about the case of "meine"

Another example:

Ich habe meinen Löffel, und du hast deinen.
I have my spoon, and you have yours.

"deinen" is a noun here, in accusative case, (Accusative, Masculine)

When you have the "deinen" or the "meine" or whatever, and it is standing on its own as its own noun, it follows the chart that I linked

This chart

This is different compared to the other chart on that page, this one:

That chart is for when "mein" or "dein" or whatever is in front of a noun, and is thus an article and not a noun itself, for example:

Mein Name ist Helmut.

[tepid dawn]

AHH!! Okay, thanks. I got it now.

[plush pelican]

Again, the first chart is:

Der Kuli ist meiner.

Note the difference: (Nominative, Masculine) for the one chart says "mein", the other chart says "meiner"

(Nominative, Neuter) for the one chart says "mein", the other chart says, "meines"

(Accusative, Neuter) for the one chart says "mein", the other chart says "meines"

Those are the 3 times when the declension is different for when these possessive things are either 1) a noun on their own, or 2) an article in front of a noun

technically speaking, when it is on its own, it is called a Possessivpronomen, a possessive pronoun, and when it is in front of a noun, it is a Possessivartikel, a possessive article

The website confusingly calls them both "possessive pronoun", though, and a lot of sources get this mixed up.

[tepid dawn]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, I finally understood what you were trying to say 🙏

I have one more question if you dont mind.

[tiny scaffold]

Go ahead

Argus is the master here but I can probably help

[tepid dawn]

Durch can be used as a sentence talking about cause: Ex - "Durch den Regen koennte ich nicht spielen".
So can Weil, Ex - "Ich koennte nicht spielen, weil es regnete". Without taking into consideration the difference between the specific sentences that I mentioned here - what exactly is the difference between the usage of both the words in this context?

[tiny scaffold]

I think using ''durch'' points out the duration. What happened DURING the rain?

If you say ''because it rained'' then it doesn't say more about what happened during the rain, only that it caused you to not play

Through the rain, something else can happen

[plush pelican]

🤔 I think more usually you would use the preposition "wegen", which is a genitive preposition

Wegen des Regens konnte ich nicht spielen.

(Side note: konnte, not könnte)

[tiny scaffold]

That would make more sense

I thought the two sentences expressed different ideas

[plush pelican]

Idk, I don't have a good feeling with "durch" for talking about cause

I would have to research this more

[tepid dawn]

Alright,

[plush pelican]

I'm not saying that using it is wrong

but I am more used to seeing and using "wegen"

[tiny scaffold]

Me too

I've never seen ''durch'' to express ''because'' / ''because of [something]''

[tepid dawn]

http://germanforenglishspeakers.com/prepositions/accusative-prepositions/

Was referring this website.

Maybe my interpretation of what was written there is wrong..

[tiny scaffold]

Hm, it looks like your usage based on their definition is correct, however, I've never seen it

[tepid dawn]

Okay. Then ill just cancel it from my notebook. Don't want to be too confused.

[tiny scaffold]

I would. There are just more common ways to express that

[tepid dawn]

Right..

[tiny scaffold]

Both wegen and weil work

And don't forget denn

3 ways to essentially say the same thing

[tepid dawn]

Right,

[plush pelican]

Idk about "because" specifically, but I have definitely seen "durch" as sort of "explaining a cause or reason"

[tiny scaffold]

That I've seen

[plush pelican]

https://www.dwds.de/wb/durch#d-1-1-3

Durch angestrengte Arbeit ist er krank geworden.

[tiny scaffold]

Through something is something else affected

[plush pelican]

well, I don't think vlad is restricting specifically to an exact translation of "because", but rather he's asking about explaining a cause, a reason

[tiny scaffold]

But again that can be expressed using any of the 3 ideas above, just with a different sentence structure

So while it does exist, and we know what it means, I wouldn't stress over using it

Just know it exists so you can recognize it

[tepid dawn]

Yeah, I mean - I wanted to know if this use of durch can also be accommodated.

[tepid dawn]

Fair enough - makes sense.

[tiny scaffold]

So good for theoretical knowledge, don't worry for practical knowledge

Book smart vs street smart :p

[tepid dawn]

One more question - pls dont mind.

Any tips for a "Bildbeschreibung"?

We have to write a 200 word one.

[tiny scaffold]

What's the image?

[tepid dawn]

Not sure. They can give us anything.

[tiny scaffold]

Describe the colors, foreground or background objects, how many elements are there...

Is there verticality? What's in the sky? What's on the ground?

[willow socket]

For the record, it's also good for practical knowledge It's very good to try these things out. That's how you learn. Not everything has to or should be ruled by how a teenager in the bus would say it.

[tiny scaffold]

You have a point, but it's redundant to the point of why does it matter if you master it? Just know it exists and spot it when it comes up. This sounds like the kind of thing a learner might pick up and go around using with native speakers and they go ''well that sounded weird''

[willow socket]

And then they correct you, and you refine your usage/knowledge. Beyond a certain point, this is the only way to progress.

[tiny scaffold]

If you still think it's worth it, be my guest. More power to you. I see nothing wrong with sticking with weil/denn/wegen

[willow socket]

As for why it matters if you master it...that's up to the individual. For me it matters because I hate sounding stupid.

[tiny scaffold]

Some things I think are not worth the effort, but again, that's me

[tepid dawn]

hmm..

[willow socket]

yeah, up to the individual. I'm sure it also makes a difference whether you actually need German to live and advance in career and academics vs. just speaking it as a hobby or on vacation.

[tepid dawn]

Is there any resource with premade sentences, etc.. specifically for bildbeschreibung?

[plush pelican]

Looks up and learn descriptive words

[tiny scaffold]

If it's a real thing, there should be. Try looking them up. I'm just giving you ideas to describe things

[willow socket]

what exactly is Bildbeschreibung? Like just any picture or a piece of art/art-adjacent thing you're supposed to describe?

[tiny scaffold]

It sounds like a general exercise in a language class

[plush pelican]

1. colors - rot, grün, blau, gelb
2. size and shape - kantig, glatt, eckig, rund
3. words describing scenery - die Wiese (meadow), der Fluss (river), der Schnee (snow), der Hügel (hill)

[tiny scaffold]

Use your knowledge of the language to describe things in this picture

Like describe things in your room

Or describe an environment

[tepid dawn]

I see.

[willow socket]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWfuD697LZg

[tepid dawn]

Ill send you some photos. Its similar to this.

[willow socket]

sowas?

I think one of the most important things for basic versions of this is knowing when to use liegen/stehen, es gibt/es ist, and ofc directions (auf der linken/rechten Seite, im Hintergrund, im Vordergrund, rechts/links, hinten/vorne, usw.)

[tepid dawn]

I see..

[tiny scaffold]

Yeah just describing objects

[tepid dawn]

The first pic is from our model paper.

[tepid dawn]

Right okay. Ill have a look at the video as well.

[tiny scaffold]

The boy has a ball, he's next to a boy wearing yellow, the grass is green

[willow socket]

Zwei Kinder spielen Fußball.

less is more

[tepid dawn]

hmm i see

[tiny scaffold]

Es gibt nen Ball. There, that's the best

Or even better, ''nen Ball gibts''

Full points

[tepid dawn]

"Ich wohne mit meinen Eltern" oder "Ich wohne bei meinen Eltern". Wanted to know which one was correct?

[willow socket]

Mitten im Bild spielen zwei Kinder Fußball. Das Kind im schwarzen Trikot prahlt mit seinen Fußballfähigkeiten und verspottet das andere Kind, das vergeblich versucht, ihm den Ball abzunehmen. Im Hintergrund ist ein erwachsener Mann zu sehen, der über die Schulter schaut. Er trägt einen roten Pullover, der seine Leidenschaft für Sport symbolisiert.

[willow socket]

bei meinen Eltern sounds normal if you want to say you live at the house of your parents

[tiny scaffold]

One is with, one is at. Are you living with them in some house? Or are you living at their house? ''bei'' is ''at'' here

You could live with your parents in a hotel, a park, a sandy beach

[tepid dawn]

I live at home with my parents.

[tiny scaffold]

Then ''bei'' works best

[tepid dawn]

Okay

[silent ore]

hello what conjuction should i use to describe a repetitive moment in the past

wenn oder als

like when i was a child i always ...

tag me

[tiny scaffold]

''als ich ein Kind war..'' and then include ''immer'' after

[icy flax]

"wenn" when you can naturally translate to english as "Every time when". If not, then it is actually a "Zeitpunkt" past, for which als is your pick. Notice how weird it would sound with a wenn

Wenn ich ein Kind war,...
Every time when I was a kid,...

[willow socket]

I like this method of discretising time in the past very much 😄 always do it in my head, too

[plush pelican]

But what about "Wann auch immer"?

or "immer wenn"

[willow socket]

what about it?

[plush pelican]

I mean, those also mean "whenever", right?

I have no idea how to differentiate

wenn, wann auch immer, immer wenn

[grim ice]

hallo! do i use gehe rechts or geh rechts when it comes to directions

[pure crescent]

look up "Imperativ gehen" since you're using gehen as an imperative here, right? telling someone to go right?

[grim ice]

yes

[jade hawk]

Gibt es Akbürzungen "mitm" oder "mitr"? Sowas wie ausm

Oder gibt es einfach irgendwo eine Liste der umgangsprachlichen Präpositionabkürzungen

[dawn oxide]

mitm gibt's

[delicate tiger]

(sehr umgangssprachlich)

[fair scaffold]

Kein Mensch schreibt das. Das ist maximal gesprochen.

[fair scaffold]

Gut, es gibt auch Leute die statt Okay mit OK abzukürzen einfach nur K schreiben, insofern traue ich den Menschen alles zu, aber mitm odee mitr habe ich noch nie irgendwo geschrieben gesehen.

[rustic dock]

doch, kommt durchaus vor

[fair scaffold]

Nun gut, aber auf Discord oder sonst wo habe ich das noch nicht gesehen und in einen ofiziellen Dokument erst recht nicht.

[rustic dock]

die herkunft von „OK“ ist ungeklärt, allerdings ist OK die ursprüngliche form und „okay“ eine neubildung

[plush pelican]

Wo kommt das vor? In welchem Zusammenhang?

[fair scaffold]

ist einfach eine Abkürzung von "mit dem" "mit der". Z.B. "Mit dem Auto" "Mitm Auto". Ganz ehrlich: Beim Sprechen macht es kaum einen Unterschied und beim ("beim" statt "bei dem" ist tatsächlich recht gebräuchlich) Schreiben bringt einem die gesparte Lebenszeit auch nicht so viel.

[plush pelican]

Aber "beim" ist durchaus akzeptabel beim Schreiben, "mitm" aber nicht, oder?

Meine Frage war also: In welchen Kontexten darf man "mitm" schreiben? Auf Discord? Auf WhatsApp unter Freunden? In einer Email? In einer Email an den Chef? Es gibt Stufen der Lockerheit/Umgangssprache, ich würde gerne wissen, in welchen Stufen sowas akzeptabel wäre.

[nova sparrow]

When you give someone directions you would rather use:
An der 3. Ampel rechts (abbiegen <- can be dropped)
without gehen

[nova sparrow]

wo? 🤔

[delicate tiger]

a) ich würd eher "mim" benutzen
b) Discord/sonstiges Chatprogramm, E-Mails schon eher nicht und an den Chef schon gar nicht

[plush pelican]

mim?!

Und die Deutschen beschweren sich, dass wir englische Muttersprachler bestimmte Konsonanten nicht aussprechen/weglassen...

[delicate tiger]

"biste mim Zoch jekomme?"

[rustic dock]

dafür gibt es mehrere ursachen. zum einen würde "mit'm" zwar das muster der anderen abkürzungen dieser kategorie übernehmen, allerdings ist "mit'm" - obwohl gebräuchlich - nicht standardisiert worden wie die anderen, weshalb es wohl eher kaum in einem buche oder in offiziellen schreiben auftauchen würde. es wird also generell nur in alltagssprachlichen kontexten benutzt, obliegt deshalb also auch dem gefühl des schreibenden. und da gibt es mehrere möglichkeiten. ihm könnte "mit'm" am logischsten erscheinen, jedoch könnte er auch "mim" schreiben, da die aussprache von "mit'm" nicht unbedingt das ist, wonach es aussieht, so kann das geschriebene "t" auch zum "p" werden oder zu einem glottisschlag, aber das wird den allermeisten leuten nicht bewusst sein; wäre auch seltsam, das zu schreiben. oder aber "mim" ist tatsächlich die richtige aussprache in einem dialekt: im saarland oder in baden-württemberg, zum beispiel, könnte ich mir das vorstellen.

[plush pelican]

"obliegt",

[plush pelican]

warte, "mip'm"?

[rustic dock]

so wäre die aussprache, schreiben würde das aber wirklich absolut niemand

[dusk spruce]

“Mip’m” sagt man also in ganz Deutschland? Es ist nicht auf eine bestimmte Dialekt beschränkt oder so?

[plush pelican]

Ich kann absolut nachvollziehen, wenn die Aussprache "mi'm" oder "mim" wäre.

"mip'm" verstehe ich gar nicht als Aussprache. Wie wird da T zu P?

[plush pelican]

Das frage ich mich auch

[nova sparrow]

Nicht wirklich, @rustic dock hat weiter oben ja auch ganz konkret 2 Regionen angesprochen (Saarland und Ba-Wü) und das mim kann ich für beide in der Umgangssprache/Dialekt bestätigen.
@delicate tiger hat ja oben auch was gepostet und durchgestrichen, da würde ich rheinländisch vermuten.
Aber definitiv ist mim KEIN Hochdeutsch 😱 🤯

[delicate tiger]

durchgestrichen: als Lerner nicht benutzen

[plush pelican]

Wenn du "kein Hochdeutsch" sagst, was bedeutet das genau?

Du meinst, man würde das nie so schreiben, oder auch beim Sprechen gilt das nicht als Hochdeutsch?

[nova sparrow]

Okay, danke für die Klarstellung, und ist es rheinländisch? (ich würde ja fragen, Köln oder Düsseldorf, will aber niemandem auf die Zehen steigen 🫣

[plush pelican]

Es gibt viele Dinge in der Umgangssprache, man würde sie nie aufschreiben, das heißt allerdings nicht, dass man Dialekt redet.

"haste" würde man z.B. nur beim Texten schreiben, oder? Allerdings ist das kein Dialekt, nur Umgangssprache

[nova sparrow]

Da hast Du völlig recht und jetzt kommen wir vielleicht schon in den philosophischen Bereich, aber die erste Frage wäre dann ja:
HOCHDEUTSCH spricht/schreibt, wer genau?
Mir fällt da sofort Hannover ein und dort habe ich das nicht wirklich gehört 🤔

[plush pelican]

Ich will nur wissen, ob du meinst:

1. außerhalb eines Dialekts wird "mim" nie gesagt
2. außerhalb eines Dialekts wird "mim" nie geschrieben
3. beide

Was genau meinst du?

[nova sparrow]

2

[plush pelican]

beim Sprechen aber schon? zumindest, umgangssprachlich?

[nova sparrow]

genau so, umgangssprechlich, geht mim völlig in Ordnung

[plush pelican]

Und was ist mit "mip'm"?

[dusk spruce]

Ich glaube jedoch, ich habe „Haste“ oder etwas, das sehr nah dran liegt, zumindest ein paar mal zuvor gehört. Es klang umgangssprachlicher bekundet als ein einfaches “Hast du”, jedenfalls.

[plush pelican]

Ich glaube, beim Sprechen passiert das öfter. Die Wörter werden zusammengeschmolzen, 😄

[dusk spruce]

das kommt hin

[nova sparrow]

Also, wenn man das P beim miP'm nicht "platzen" lässt, (und das sollte man mMn auch nicht), dann gibt es [fast] keinen Unterschied zum mim...

[plush pelican]

...was?

[nova sparrow]

das ist ja auch der Fall beim mim...

[plush pelican]

wenn man das P nicht ausspricht, gibt's fast keinen Unterschied?

🤣

Wofür steht das P denn?

[nova sparrow]

Nenene! 🤯

[plush pelican]

Vocaroo mir eine Aufnahme

[nova sparrow]

MMn für ne kleine Pause ...

[dusk spruce]

Das will ich auch hören

[nova sparrow]

und ich habe ja oben schon geschrieben, dass ich, wenn Verschmelzung, dann eher mim präferiere.

[nova sparrow]

Vocaroo???

[plush pelican]

Vocaroo ist eine Webseite, mit der man leicht eine Aufnahme machen und teilen kann

Man braucht nur ein Mikro

https://vocaroo.com/

[rustic dock]

ich bin leider nicht bewandert genug in lautlehre um das richtig beschreiben zu können, aber die lippen sind in der selben nukleusposition wie beim P, nur wird keins so richtig ausgesprochen

das ist aber irgendwie die einzige beschreibung dazu, die mir einfällt

mir persönlich ist das am ehesten an einem P

[plush pelican]

Ist das wie ein "glottal stop"?

[rustic dock]

ja, aber irgendwie qualitativ anders

zu deutsch übrigens „glottisschlag“

[plush pelican]

https://youtu.be/chcjHwWwVxQ?si=_7L3vL_yUqHJqv-q&t=53

[rustic dock]

yeah i know

[plush pelican]

wie anders? 🤔

Kannst du eine Aufnahme durch Vocaroo machen?

Ich würde es gerne hören

[rustic dock]

ich glaube, mein mikrofon würde das nicht richtig einfangen

[nova sparrow]

bitteschön!

[plush pelican]

Und das ist echt ein P, anstatt einem T?

[rustic dock]

just tried it, vocaroo compression makes it difficult

[rustic dock]

that’s what i mean

it’s the compression

[plush pelican]

Wie kommt man darauf, ein T zu einem P zu machen 😅

[rustic dock]

the point is that it sounds very similar to T, but the tongue is not in the position for a T

[rustic dock]

because T to M is an awkward movement

[nova sparrow]

energy saving

[rustic dock]

and pm is a cluster present in colloquial german

[plush pelican]

zum Beispiel?

[rustic dock]

the word „Steppen“ without a schwa would not be steppn but steppm

way easier to pronounce

[dusk spruce]

Also ist das P eigentlich nicht so ausgesprochen, wie ich dachte. Sogar wenn ich den Buchstaben gehört hatte, klang es irgendwie noch immer wie “Mit’m”, wenn das Sinn ergibt. Es ist interessant, wie’s funktioniert.

[plush pelican]

warte, warte, das N wird zu einem M?

WAS TREIBT IHR DA?

[rustic dock]

bei vielen, wenn nicht den meisten, deutschen

pn is a strange cluster

[nova sparrow]

es ist definitiv KEIN T / D

[rustic dock]

da die zunge die vorherige position beibehält, oder?

[nova sparrow]

Also, ich finde, wir haben hier ne Menge Spass???

[rustic dock]

hm, eigentlich ist die zunge ja das ganze wort über in einer neutralen position, wie es ein labialer konsonant zulassen würde

[plush pelican]

Heute lerne ich, dass umgangssprachlich scheinbar alle Konsonanten zu allen anderen Konsonanten wandern können 😛

[nova sparrow]

Naja, nicht alle zu allen, aber es gibt definitiv Verschiebungen, um Energie zu sparen, die Sprache flüssiger zu machen....

[dusk spruce]

Wenn nur die Umgangssprache so vorhersehbar und logisch wäre wie andere Teile der Sprache haha

[rustic dock]

dann wäre sie nicht besonders umgänglich!

[plush pelican]

Ich würde sagen, sie sind immer noch vergleichbar...aber nur weil die anderen Teile so unvorhersehbar sind, wenn man ins Einzelne geht

[keen coral]

Is it "komme heir" or "kommst heir"?

[dusk spruce]

What are you trying to say, exactly?

[keen coral]

I'm trying to say "come here" in German

[dusk spruce]

Oh, I see. I think “Komm her” would sound best in this case.

[keen coral]

oohh danke :0

[dusk spruce]

bitte

[nova sparrow]

If you want to make it sound a bit more polite you'd say: Komm bitte her.

[keen coral]

Ah danke schön!

[nova sparrow]

Bitteschön!

[nova sparrow]

and if you're up to use modal particles:
Komm doch mal bitte her.
#questions message
posted in questions ... just a bit up...

[keen coral]

Does "mit mir" means "to me" or "with me"?

[willow socket]

with me

[keen coral]

Danke 🍓

[acoustic breach]

Ich habe gelernt, dass die Deklination des Wortes "Schweiz-" bei "Schweizer Käse" (und auch bei "Berliner Wurst") sich nicht ändert, egal in welchem Kasus das Wort steht.

Geht das auch bei "Vereinigte Königreich"? Sagt man "aus dem Vereinigte Königreich" oder "aus dem Vereinigten Königreich"?

[teal cliff]

Ich weiß was du meinst

Ich weiß nicht wie man das transkribieren soll, aber ich hab auch geglaubt es ist einfach ein gloppisschlag

glottis

Colemak typos schauen to goofy aus lmao

[plush pelican]

Gloppisschlag schreibt man mit '
oder?

mi'm

[plush pelican]

In Hammer's German Grammar 6.1.3(g) wird besprochen, wann Adjektive nicht dekliniert werden:

"Berliner Wurst" verstehe ich (Das ist eine Stadt, das wird in Hammer's erwähnt), aber "Schweizer Käse" verstehe ich nicht

"Vereinigtes Königreich" wird immer noch dekliniert.

Das kann man leicht bestätigen, indem man den Wiki-Artikel anschaut.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vereinigtes_Königreich

https://german.stackexchange.com/questions/5742/schweizerisch-oder-schweizer

🤔

Allgemein ist Schweizer Käse korrekt, da es meistens als Eigenname, bzw. Synonym für den Emmentaler verwendet wird.

[acoustic breach]

Danke

Also wird "Deutsche Welle" auch dekliniert oder nicht?

Die Deutsche Welle
aus der Deutsche? Welle

[plush pelican]

Ich benutze denselben Trick: Ich gucke kurz den Wiki-Artikel an, 😄

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Welle

[acoustic breach]

Ja sorry habe gerade auch gelesen xD

[plush pelican]

Der Journalist Peter Limbourg ist seit 1. Oktober 2013 Intendant der Deutschen Welle.

[acoustic breach]

genau diesen Satz xD

Danke @plush pelican !

[plush pelican]

*gelesen

[teal cliff]

naja nein, im IPA hab ich gemeint

[plush pelican]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottal_stop

Aber ich kenne mich mit dem IPA nicht aus

[teal cliff]

Ich weiß halt nicht ob es wirklich ein glottal Stop ist xd

[plush pelican]

Just found this ridiculous example of a Partizipialsatz in an article about Syria: https://taz.de/Nach-dem-Sturz-von-Assad-in-Syrien/!6055341/

Mit der Eroberung von Tal Rifaat und jetzt Manbidsch hat die türkische Regierung ein seit Jahren verfolgtes Ziel erreicht: Die von der syrischen Kurdenmiliz YPG nach der Eroberung der am weitesten westlich gelegenen kurdischen Enklave Afrin im Frühjahr 2018 noch gehaltenen Stellungen westlich des Euphrats sind nun erobert worden. Nach mehreren militärischen Vorstößen nach Nordsyrien seit 2016 hatte die türkische Armee bereits eine Reihe grenznahe Streifen in Syrien besetzt, jetzt ist diese grenznahe Zone westlich des Euphrats erstmals vollständig unter türkischer Kontrolle.

[dusk spruce]

Ist es eigentlich normal, dass solche Sätze ein wenig schwer sind, komplett zu verstehen, wenn man mit ihnen noch immer nicht besonders vertraut ist?

[pure crescent]

someone sponsor a writing training for that journalist, what a horrible sentence 😂

[night dagger]

der Satz ist doch schön

[willow socket]

es ist normal. Normalerweise lese ich so einen Satz 2mal. Einmal, um zu sehen, dass die Struktur komplizierter ist, als bei einem einfachen Satz, ein zweites mal, um den Satz dann zu verstehen.

[plush pelican]

Only by working my way through it did I realize it's actually a Partizipialsatz inside of a Partizipialsatz

which is to say, a relative clause, inside of a relative clause, in the position of an adjective

Die (von der syrischen Kurdenmiliz YPG nach der Eroberung der [am weitesten westlich gelegenen kurdischen] Enklave Afrin im Frühjahr 2018 noch gehaltenen) Stellungen

[rustic dock]

huh what’s odd about that

honestly i only read it one time and didn’t struggle at all to keep track 🥲

[dusk spruce]

Achso, danke.

[rustic dock]

it’s good german

[willow socket]

It's as unsurprising that a native speaker reads fluent german as it is that a non-native speaker might struggle with complex Satzbau

[rustic dock]

sure yeah, though even germans complain about such sentences

[plush pelican]

Using Partizipialsätze in the position of an adjective doesn't even really exist in English. We use a relative clause, because otherwise it's a "run-on sentence" with too much complexity that needs to be broken up into multiple clauses.

So the very idea of these things is already weird.

And then here, you have nested Partizipialsätze, one inside the other.

[rustic dock]

which is splendid hehe

[nova sparrow]

^^aus dem Vereinigten Königreich

[plush pelican]

aus dem Vereinigten Königreich, oder?

Da "vereinigt" ein Teil der Name ist, wird das Adjektiv ebenfalls großgeschrieben

[plush pelican]

Here's a "fun" little tidbit:

verneinen - to deny/say no/negate
bejahen - to affirm/answer in the affirmative

There is, however, no "verjahen" or "beneinen" 🤔

WHY, GERMAN, WHY

[old roost]

does feierlich have meaning of serious or only festive

[tiny scaffold]

Wäre zu einfach

[tiny scaffold]

Both. But generally I see "ernst" for serious

[willow socket]

I don't think it really means 'serious' rather solemn/ceremonious

[nova sparrow]

https://www.dwds.de/wb/feierlich

[old roost]

achso

[thorn zodiac]

Going through Grammat Aktiv B2-C1 Partnerseite and doing the passiv part.

This was one of the activities at the end but could someone explain whats going on? I can recognise the passiv + modal (so z.b Die Tür konnte geöffnet werden) is normal to me but I cant recognise quite whats going on here with the haben stuff.

Its like haben + Nomen but idk tbh. Could someone explain?

We also came across a Futur 1 passiv usage which was also new to me

-Looking through the resource on it, apparently there are some scenarios where the passiv cant be formed, would this be one of them?

[fair scaffold]

The difference to "Die Tür konnte geöffnet werden" is that "Hat jemand Stühle leihen können?" is a question. As a question it woud mean "Hat die Tür geöffnet werden können?" or as a non question (dont know the english word for that) it woud mean "Die Stühle konnten durch jemanden geliehen werden".

I am not sure if that is an answer to your question but hopefully it helps.

[thorn zodiac]

Truthfully I dont think so 😅 , my confusion comes from the haben usage. The example I gave was supposed to show I understand whats going on with modals + passiv but with this haben chucked it im not to sure how it functions.

I can tell the question isnt in perfekt but im not sure of what grammar exactly is going on apart from clearly there is modal + passiv (assuming it fits) but I dont know what this grammatik structure fully is.

When I mentioned the futur 1 passiv, I meant also that this was the first time I encountered that and assumed this was some other structure I dont know 😳

Danke im Voraus 😎 🤝

[rustic dock]

ver- with ja would be strange, because the connotations of the two components would be antithetical to one another, i think

so beneinen would have a slightly higher chance to be a word

also sounds less strange to me

but it never came to be

[nova sparrow]

Allerdings gibt es eine Menge anderer Verben, die mit einer der beiden Vorsilben zusammenpassen. Ich bin leider kein Etymologe, um sagen zu können, woher sie kommen und nach welchen Regeln sie verbunden werden (dürfen).

[willow socket]

verjahen sounds to me like condemning something by approving it. Like if you would give the go-ahead on a project you wanted to see fail (and knew it would) 😂

[rustic dock]

closest to the intended meaning i could understand it like would be if something had transitioned from no to yes

but it mostly sounds like it implies a mistake or something negative

[rustic dock]

welche denn? (stehe etwas auf dem schlauch :DDD)

[nova sparrow]

Oh Beispiele mit
ver:
Versichern
versprechen
verhandeln
verkaufen
verwöhnen
verlassen...

[nova sparrow]

und Beispiele mit
be:
besprechen
behandeln
belassen
besuchen
beleidigen
begrüssen/begrüßen ?
bezahlen

[plush pelican]

Can you expand on this?

ver- as a prefix has a bunch of potential meanings, doesn't it?

[plush pelican]

"Hat jemand Stühle leihen können?"

IS in Perfekt tense. It just involves the Ersatzinfinitiv.

Let's rearrange stuff. First, make it a statement:

Jemand hat Stühle leihen können.

For a certain set of verbs, when doing Perfekt tense, you use the normal Partizip 2 form (gekonnt) if there are only 2 verbs in the clause, but if there are 3 verbs in the clause and you're doing Perfekt tense, you use the infinitive form instead of the Partizip 2 (können instead of gekonnt).

Ich habe das gekonnt.

Ich habe das machen können.

Now, Perfekt is equal in meaning to Präteritum, so you could rewrite the sentence instead as:

Jemand konnte Stühle leihen.

That's "leihen" as the main verb, with "können" as a modal verb. Someone was able to borrow chairs.

Jemand hat Stühle leihen können.

Someone was able to borrow chairs.

This is the Ersatzinfinitiv or "double infinitive", so called because, as you see, there are 2 verbs in infinitive (leihen können).

https://www.colanguage.com/double-infinitive-german

Well, not just Perfekt tense, but all "compound" tenses that would normally involve Partizip 2.

But you see it most often with Perfekt tense, simply because Perfekt is so common.

https://studyflix.de/deutsch/passiv-zeitformen-7682
https://deutschegrammatik20.de/passiv/passiv-mit-modalverb/

If it were Futur 1, there would have to be a "werden" in there somewhere, and in order to be passive, the accusative object (Stühle) would have to have become the subject.

(Futur 1, Aktiv) Jemand wird Stühle leihen.

(Futur 1, Passiv) Stühle werden geleihen werden.

Add back in the modal verb:

(Futur 1, Passiv mit Modalverb) Stühle werden geleihen werden können.

Futur 1 implies "werden" as in "will"

Passiv implies "werden" (as in become/get/be) + Partizip 2 of the main verb

Stühle werden geliehen werden.

Chairs will be borrowed.

Stühle werden geliehen werden können.

Chairs will be able to be borrowed.

(Sometimes, in English we have to use "be able" instead of "can")

[nova sparrow]

As you can see above!
Need more?

[plush pelican]

I mean, listing them without explaining the meaning of "ver-" in each doesn't help a non-native speaker much.

There is a website that lists some of the potential meanings of "ver-":

https://germanstudiesdepartmenaluser.host.dartmouth.edu/Wortbildung/Inseparables.html

[nova sparrow]

I see, but you sure are aware, that most of them have more than one meaning and I didn't want to write a book on this topic 😉

[plush pelican]

That's why I'm curious as to why "verjahen" wouldn't work. Maybe with one meaning it wouldn't work, but what about the other like 20? 😅

[thorn zodiac]

Wow thank you for a very informative response! Ill look into this more when im home from work 🤝

[shut sinew]

Hi is there some beginners (a1) guide to “kein” vs “nicht”? I’ve googled, but found only either too simple articles (like kein is for nouns, nicht is for verbs), or too complicated like the whole negation story in the language.

[plush pelican]

"kein for nouns, nicht for non-nouns" will get you 90% of the way there.

There can also be some times when you use "nicht" with a noun. But those are more exceptions and when you're really stressing something, it's not how you normally negate the noun.

[shut sinew]

Well, but placement is also important. Like nicht after verb, but before adjective, and then “Das ist nicht gut” - does it negate verb or adj? 🙂 that’s artificial example, but at times I’m lost…

[plush pelican]

I mean, there is no simple explanation of "placement of nicht"

😅

[shut sinew]

Ouch…

[plush pelican]

If you look in the pinned messages in #questions , the first pinned message is a neutral word order.

There, they have a spot for "nicht"

however, to understand that order, you have to understand what all the categories mean...

Which is itself a task

Especially "Verbgefährte"

Prerequisite knowledge:

1. the TeKaMoLo adverbs (google this)

2. the 2 spots for verbs in a main clause (especially the right verbal bracket, die rechte Satzklammer)

3. Verbgefährte/verb complements

Knowing separable verbs helps explain #3 a bit

[shut sinew]

Tekamolo I read about, yes, but not yet good at it. Okay, way too complex for A1 (or even A0+) I’m learning, lol. Will stick to “kein for nouns with indefinite article, nicht for everything else” for now. Thanks 🙂

[plush pelican]

Or no article

Hast du Geld?
Nein, ich habe kein Geld.

[shut sinew]

But “ich habe nicht so viel Geld”? Because nicht here is to viel?

[plush pelican]

There, you're negating "so viel", not "Geld"

Ich habe so viel Geld = I have a lot of money.

Ich habe nicht so viel Geld = I have not(a lot) of money = I have little money.

[signal cipher]

After nicht is negated (including verb even when it’s in position 2). But the thing right after it is negated more.

[shut sinew]

So, how do you differentiate between “I don’t have a lot of money” and “I have not so much money”? It’s semantically very close, of course, but still

[willow socket]

Ich habe nur wenig Geld is the only other way I could really think of to say it. There's no difference.

[plush pelican]

🤔 I don't think I would ever say, "I have not so much money" in English. At least not in my American English.

Is that a British thing?

[shut sinew]

I’m not a native English speaker either 🙂 Maybe bad example on my side

[charred harbor]

I’d only say that if I saw someone pull out way more money than I had and I wanted to make a joke

[potent copper]

Wie nennt man dieses Ding auf Deutsch

[rich prism]

Duschschwamm?

[rustic dock]

i don't even know what that is

[plush pelican]

For scrubbing dead skin cells during a shower

[rustic dock]

exfoiliating?

[plush pelican]

We call them "loofahs"

[rustic dock]

luffa apparently

i think they are universally called that

in a way or another

i have just never seen one that looks like that

mine's like a mitten

[stone igloo]

My grandma had one of those i think

[plush pelican]

I would've thought you put nicht in front of "auf die Schweiz", like

"Die EU kann nicht auf die Schweiz verzichten."

1. Is the version in the headline also correct?

2. Does one of the two versions add special emphasis to the sentence rather than being a general negation, and if so, which version?

[left salmon]

if you put nicht in front of die Schweiz it puts emphasis on die Schweiz, as in, switzerland is the only country the EU cannot go without

I get that they couldve written that here but the version in the headline sounds more neutral

maybe also more natural?

[plush pelican]

Interesting, so my version is the stressed one, and theirs the general negation. I have absolutely no idea how to explain that.

[left salmon]

maybe this puts emphasis on verzichten?

[left salmon]

me neither
maybe its also just my impression and im actually in the wrong here

[plush pelican]

What if we add more adverbs?

Die EU kann heute wegen der vielen bevorstehenden Probleme (nicht) auf die Schweiz (nicht) verzichten.

Is the more neutral version still at the end?

[left salmon]

No, now if its at the end it sounds like emphasis on the verzichten part

no actually

on switzerland

wtf

hmm maybe both?
im putting varying stress on both parts in my head and sometimes verzichtne is more stressed and sometimes switzerland

maybe my confusion comes from there lol

[nova sparrow]

I feel like both versions could be used equivalent, imho the first one is more common, the 2nd ist still valid though.
@left salmon

[plush pelican]

Which one is the first one? nicht before "auf" or nicht before "verzichten"?

[nova sparrow]

... kann nicht auf die Schweiz verzichten...

[left salmon]

For the one with the many adverbs? Or the original one

[nova sparrow]

actually both 🤷‍♂️

[left salmon]

heh thats funky

maybe i was wrong then initially

[plush pelican]

For what it's worth, having "nicht auf die Schweiz" lines up with what I have learned so far about position of "nicht"

Of course, I think I still haven't mastered the position of "nicht", though...

[nova sparrow]

But keep in mind, I'm not an expert as such, only a heavy user of the language
@left salmon

[plush pelican]

"heavy user" That's an interesting description for a native speaker

[left salmon]

heh you probably use it more than me
i have some weeks were i go almost completely without german and only use it to call my family
so like maybe 3-5 hours of german for an entire week lol

[signal cipher]

Why would you put nicht before auf die Schweiz when you don’t want to emphasize it? It’s not verbgefährte or something like that?

[plush pelican]

auf etwas verzichten

It is a Verbgefährte

verb + preposition combo

to do without something

[signal cipher]

Are you sure? Isn’t it just prepositional object

It doesn’t modify the verb

[plush pelican]

If you want to say what you are going without, you have to use "auf", and it has to be in accusative case.

Just like how if you want to say what you are remembering, you have to use "an" with erinnern, and it has to be in accusative case.

sich an etwas erinnern

auf etwas verzichten

[nova sparrow]

others maybe sit and watch TV the whole day, and maybe never read more than a handful of books, that's not me 😁
And I need to talk for my job (teaching adults) 🤷‍♂️

[signal cipher]

Verzichten means same with or without it’s object

You just add object

[left salmon]

buuuuuks
me likey

[plush pelican]

The object is added through the prepositional phrase "auf etwas", just like the object for "erinnern" is added through the prepositional phrase "an etwas"

Do you think that's not a Verbgefährte?

sich an etwas erinnern?

[signal cipher]

I think it isn’t because it doesn’t modify the verb

[plush pelican]

It's definitely a Verbgefährte

[plush pelican]

It does belong directly to the verb

In order to say what you are going without, you must use "auf etwas"

and it must be in accusative case

[signal cipher]

Meaning of verb doesn’t change with that object

[plush pelican]

Bro

[signal cipher]

It’s just my thought 🤷‍♂️

[plush pelican]

Verb + Objekt mit Präposition

How much clearer can it be? They even have "auf" there in the example

[nova sparrow]

Ottfried Preussler, Astrid Lindgren, Erich Kästner, J R R Tolkien, J K Rowling, almost all 70+ books of Karl May, Cooper, Noah Gordon, Goethe, Schiller, Thomas Mann, ....

[plush pelican]

For comparison:

You can in fact just say, "Er freut sich."

Or you can say, "Er freut sich auf die Party."

It's the exact same situation: If you want to specify what he is happy about/looking forward to, you have to use Objekt mit Präposition, and that Objekt mit Präposition is the Verbgefärhte

[signal cipher]

Does it say all of them

[plush pelican]

Moment

[signal cipher]

I am happy, I am looking forward

Verb must mean slightly or totally different without the verbgefahrte

[plush pelican]

In that same list, we find

auf etwas verzichten

and

sich auf etwas freuen

[signal cipher]

That means both does/can have object with preposition.

That doesn’t mean all objects with preposition are verbgefahrte

[plush pelican]

The other page literally defined "Objekt mit Präposition" as Verbgefährte

It didn't say, "except for the verb 'verzichten' for some reason"

[signal cipher]

I understand it like which structures can be verbgefährte

[plush pelican]

Are you arguing this because "verzichten" in Turkish doesn't need an object or something?

[signal cipher]

This is an interesting assumption

See not all noun+verb are verbgefährte

[plush pelican]

all verb-noun-combinations are

[signal cipher]

“Die nicht alleine stehen“

[signal cipher]

Some are just an object, some are verbgefährte

[plush pelican]

You can say, "Er erinnert sich"

Are you now claiming then that "an etwas" isn't a Verbgefährte for "erinnern"?

[signal cipher]

If erinnern means same with or without its prepositional object, yes, that prepositional object is not verbgefährte.
Personally I don’t know that verb well. Like I said if.

You can see that in the example without verbgefährte it means being happy, with vebegefährte it means looking forward.

The change doesn’t have to be that much but there must be a change.

[plush pelican]

That's the English, in English we change the translation

Verbgefährte are not required to change the meaning of the verb in order to be Verbgefährte

[signal cipher]

Slightly or totally change is mandatory as I know

[signal cipher]

Because meaning changes

[plush pelican]

Wir müssen auf die Ferien warten.

We have to wait on vacation.

Wir müssen warten.
We have to wait.

Is that also not a Verbgefährte now?

despite it literally being printed in the book as such?

[signal cipher]

Location complement.
Throwing, throwing in a box. These are different. Like I said meaning doesn’t have to change totally.
Waiting and waiting in something. They are slightly different.

[plush pelican]

That's not a location complement

They are not waiting onto the ferry

it's in accusative case

[signal cipher]

I will check again

My lack of German 😄

[rich prism]

What book is this from

[plush pelican]

Grammatik Aktiv B2-C1

[signal cipher]

I don’t know that example. Meaning may change or not. I couldn’t figure it out by myself.

[plush pelican]

I'm telling you: If the object of the verb is gotten by doing (preposition + object), then that whole thing is the Verbgefährte

You don't always need an object, you can often go without them

It doesn't change the fact that they are Verbgefährte

[signal cipher]

I still don’t agree. Meaning much change as I know.

[plush pelican]

From the section on Verbgefährte they have example sentences:

Ich muss im Wartezimmer immer sehr lange auf den Arzt warten.
Ich habe mich oft darüber geärgert.
Ich fürchte mich dann die ganze Zeit vor dem Arztbesuch.
Er hat mir netterweise zum Geburtstag gratuliert.
Er hat also daran gedacht.

[signal cipher]

I have no time right now to read but I have found a source which may help.

https://yourdailygerman.com/meaning-warten-erwarten/

[plush pelican]

auf etwas warten
sich über etwas ärgern
sich vor etwas fürchten
zu etwas gratulieren
an etwas denken

[signal cipher]

It may not help. I didn’t read yet

[plush pelican]

To wait on something
To get mad about something
To be afraid of something
To congratulate (someone) on something
To think of something

Objekt mit Präposition

You can equally say:

Ich ärgere mich.
Ich ärgere mich über etwas.

Ich fürchte mich.
Ich fürchte mich vor etwas.

Ich gratuliere jemandem.
Ich gratuliere jemandem zu etwas.

Ich denke.
Ich denke an etwas.

It doesn't change the meaning.

it just adds the object of the verb (bzw. Objekt mit Präposition, it's not a direct object)

[signal cipher]

I will search more source about verbgefährte. I can’t judge well these examples since I didn’t study well about prepositional objects yet.

[nova sparrow]

(holidays/vacation) Ferien <-> Fähre (ferry)

[plush pelican]

hoppla

[nova sparrow]

Maybe you can change Ferien to Fähre in your text above, so nobody gets the wrong impression? Or change the translation?

[plush pelican]

It was in the book itself as Ferien, I'm quoting the book

I did cut out some stuff from the sentence:

Wir müssen auch nicht mehr lange auf die Ferien warten.

[nova sparrow]

and the translation is also from the book?

[plush pelican]

No, that's from me

The book itself is entirely in German

[nova sparrow]

Okay, np, everything looks fine now.

[left salmon]

Jap jap jap jap
Who is cooper

[nova sparrow]

James Fenimore Cooper iirc, he wrote Lederstrumpf

[plush pelican]

You're giving author recommendations?

What do the books have in common?

[nova sparrow]

I've read them all XD nothing more and not a complete list tbh

[plush pelican]

leather stockings?

klingt irgendwie anzüglich...

[nova sparrow]

some were for children like Ottfried Preussler, Astrid Lindgren.... so maybe for beginners 🤔

[plush pelican]

I see, this is "stockings" in a very old meaning of the word

[nova sparrow]

It's about a guy in the wild west. There you can't go to a shoe shop and have to adapt if you don't want to be barefoot 😉

[plush pelican]

more like pants

[nova sparrow]

Oh you have Strumpf in Strumpfhose and no, even today I wouldn't say it's an "old" expression only ppl nowadays mostly have socks (Socken).

[plush pelican]

@nova sparrow

Question: How understandable do you find this paragraph?

Mit der Eroberung von Tal Rifaat und jetzt Manbidsch hat die türkische Regierung ein seit Jahren verfolgtes Ziel erreicht: Die von der syrischen Kurdenmiliz YPG nach der Eroberung der am weitesten westlich gelegenen kurdischen Enklave Afrin im Frühjahr 2018 noch gehaltenen Stellungen westlich des Euphrats sind nun erobert worden. Nach mehreren militärischen Vorstößen nach Nordsyrien seit 2016 hatte die türkische Armee bereits eine Reihe grenznahe Streifen in Syrien besetzt, jetzt ist diese grenznahe Zone westlich des Euphrats erstmals vollständig unter türkischer Kontrolle.

I'm thinking particularly of ||the Partizipialsatz innerhalb eines Partizipialsatzes an der Stelle eines Adjektivs, :D.||

||Sowas machen wir im Englischen nicht, es wird als grammatikalisch falsch bewertet; stattdessen benutzen wir fast immer einen bzw. mehrere Relativsätze.||

[left salmon]

Oh interesting
Never heard of that book

[plush pelican]

It's a series written in the early 1800s.

One of the titles I've heard of: Last of the Mohicans, there was a movie about it in the 1990s.

[tiny scaffold]

Ich hab mir ihn angeschaut aber ich fand ihn langweilig

Die Musik gefällt mir doch

[plush pelican]

Damals hatte alles eine andere Geschwindigkeit. Langsamer, gemütlicher. Es ist schwierig, jetzt zurückzugehen, weil wir heutzutage an eine schnellere Geschwindigkeit gewöhnt sind.

[nova sparrow]

I'd say it's perfectly fine, we Germans are famous for long-ass sentences 😇
If you're interested in the topic you could read Dietrich Schwanitz "Bildung..."
maybe also for @left salmon

[plush pelican]

In welchem Jahrzehnt wurde das geschrieben? 😄

[nova sparrow]

1999

[plush pelican]

Das sind aber viele Worte, mit denen kaum etwas gesagt wird, 😄

"Schrift und Sprache sind unterschiedliche Arten der Kommunikation."

Okay, hab's kapiert,

Im Englischen haben wir dieses Problem nicht, weil wir keine Schachtelsätze bilden, 😛

[nova sparrow]

the example sentence on page 432 top explains a bit how one might feel when learning Geman.

[plush pelican]

Fast jeder Deutschlerner liest irgendwann die Beschwerden von Mark Twain über den Satzbau der deutschen Sprache, :D.

Da hat er etwas Ähnliches über Schachtelsätze geschrieben.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_schreckliche_deutsche_Sprache

[nova sparrow]

Okay, 👍

[slim kiln]

I need some good anki decks

[plush pelican]

https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1586166030

[neat warren]

hallo zusammen

[quartz escarp]

Hey, I've got a question 😅
I'm studying Konjunktive (type II) rn, and for some words there is an optional e in the ending, like:
du wär(e)st, ihr käm(e)t
But it's nowhere explained what that depends on, if anything. Are both fine whenever?

[nova sparrow]

I would say, without the e is more spoken language and with the e rather written but both are fine

[quartz escarp]

Good to know, thanks

[plush pelican]

Is this also an age thing, like Dativ Singular -e?

Idk that I've seen anything with "wärest" or "kämest" that wasn't a poem from like the 1800s

[quartz escarp]

I asked my partner who just came home and they think, kämest etc is an old way to say it, yeah. It's the "proper" way in writing but they would never use it in speaking

[plush pelican]

Here's what Deutsche Welle's app for German learning says:

https://learngerman.dw.com/de/konjunktiv-ii-wünsche-2/l-40511139/gr-40512387

The forms in parentheses are only rarely used today.

[nova sparrow]

maybe you could find it in a newspaper (but not the ones with very big letters 😉 ...)
imho it has to do with time, and it's rather colloquial, to leave the e even in 3rd person sg:
er wär ja gefahren, wenn nicht....
But I'm no expert, only (heavy) user 😉

[plush pelican]

Which newspaper would you recommend?

Is Tagesschau excluded?

[nova sparrow]

Tagesschau is no print media...

[plush pelican]

The fact that I get news by a website rather than directly on TikTok already puts me one step behind The Youths

Print is 2 steps behind 😛

Oh, sorry, there's also Tagesschau the tv program.

So I guess print is 3 steps behind xD

[nova sparrow]

Sth like Süddeutsche Zeitung, Frankfurter Allgemeine, Die Zeit, ... but it depends, really

[signal cipher]

What does that mean?
… dass die Tür auf nicht geht.

[rich prism]

I would assume it means, ....that the door doesn't open. However it looks incorrect to me

[signal cipher]

It’s an example for emphasized positioning of nicht.

[fair scaffold]

It is correct depending on the context

[signal cipher]

Not aufgehen but auf…
?

[rich prism]

In which context would it be right

[timber yacht]

That sounds wrong.
"... dass die Tür nicht auf geht." = "... dass die Tür sich nicht öffnet." oder "... dass die Tür sich nicht öffnen lässt."

[fair scaffold]

It is wrong. I read it wrong, my mistakr

[plush pelican]

You can't put nicht in the middle of a separable verb. "aufgehen" is a separable verb, and both parts are in the rechte Satzklammer, which means they have to be rejoined together.

Also, "nicht" goes in the Mittelfeld, not in the rechte Satzklammer itself.

[thorn zodiac]

I got a question relating to sein perfekt but specifically regarding change of state and adjectives.

So I know naturally "Du bist fertig" works but I dont quite understand the difference between sein perfekt (when it occurs) and when P2 is used (z.B Du bist getrocknet).

Like I assume its an adjektive but how do I know for sure? Bit of a weird question I just thought of on my drive home 😅

[icy flax]

I think it sort of intersects.

Es ist trocken, es ist getrocknet.

Der Unterschied scheint mir nur daran zu liegen, dass man aus dem 2. ableiten kann, das Ding ist einmal nicht trocken gewesen.

[plain umbra]

What do you mean by P2 here?

[icy flax]

(ganz wohl) Dies, mein guter Base.
https://learnattack.de/schuelerlexikon/deutsch/partizip-ii
P1: trocknend
P2: getrocknet

[signal cipher]

Your daily German says you can but it creates big tension

[plain umbra]

Sure, but I wanted to ask them, because if they meant Partizip II, then their question is a bit confusing. "The difference between sein Perfekt and when Partizip II is used". But Perfekt is made using Partizip II.

[signal cipher]

Danke schön

[plain umbra]

I would have thought they're asking about Perfekt compared to Passiv so maybe they formulated their question wrong.

Like maybe rather than Partizip II they meant Zustandspassiv.

[plush pelican]

Where does it say you can put "nicht" in the middle of a separable verb?

[plush pelican]

found it

YourDailyGerman is being incredibly generous there, labeling it merely "super weird" rather than outright "wrong".

I don't think any native would ever say or write that sentence

unless they were stumbling over their words and said something in the wrong order, as you do sometimes when speaking quickly

And you heard from 3 different natives earlier, who all said it sounded wrong.

[signal cipher]

May be something like that

It gives an emphasize, but I am not sure exactly what kind

@plush pelican

[plush pelican]

Something like what?

[signal cipher]

Not aufgehen but aufmachen for example

[plush pelican]

there's no "machen" part of it

and "aufmachen" is still a separable verb

[signal cipher]

Just an example

It doesn’t negate auf but negate the root

[plush pelican]

Again, you can't do that

[signal cipher]

I can. You read

[plush pelican]

The Soul guy later on said he misread the example, and said it was indeed wrong

[plush pelican]

You mean, what YourDailyGerman wrote?

[signal cipher]

Yis

[plush pelican]

He's bending over backwards to avoid saying "wrong"

and even he says it's "super weird" and sounds wrong

[signal cipher]

Says poetic

[plush pelican]

Are you going to sound like a poem when speaking?

[signal cipher]

Why not? I may want sound poetic or may want to write a poem. I wrote Bulgarian poems

[plush pelican]

In poems, you can basically break the rules

[signal cipher]

It’s useful to know the difference between gibberish and poetic

[plush pelican]

If you are writing a poem, you can sort of do whatever.

I would not advise you to write or say anything like "auf nicht geht" in real life, though.

[signal cipher]

I won’t write it in Goethe exam

(Unless I wrote a poem in the exam)

[plush pelican]

Even there, it would probably be marked as wrong

[signal cipher]

I don’t think so. Some things are real gibberish.

[plush pelican]

This is basically gibberish. It only makes sense in a poem, and poems allow you to break rules

[signal cipher]

Not all of them. You can’t write whatever you want. So it’s good to know what you can write

But I need to know what kind of emphasize this position of nicht creates.

… dass die Tür auf nicht geht.

It may not be what I am guessing

[plush pelican]

It's almost incomprehensible

"aufgehen" means "to open"

I'm not sure how you negate only part of "to open"

Maybe you could say, instead of aufgehen, it's auffliegen or something?

So the door doesn't open up (at a normal pace), but instead flies open quickly?

this is all deeply speculative

in real life, you would never use anything like this

[signal cipher]

Ich habe die Tür meines Herzens auf nicht gegangen. es ist bereits auf.

[plush pelican]

Wouldn't the verb there be "aufmachen"?

Ich mache die Tür auf

Die Tür geht auf

[signal cipher]

I don’t know. I would say geöffnet 😄

[plush pelican]

also, "aufgehen", like "gehen", is movement and requires the "sein" helping verb

[signal cipher]

But isn’t it a state change

Not open to open

[plush pelican]

Die Tür meines Herzens ist auf nicht gegangen. Sie ist bereits auf.

[plush pelican]

Either way, it requires "sein"

[signal cipher]

Oh right. State and position change use sein, others Haben.

[plush pelican]

Even writing this sentence seems wrong to me

[signal cipher]

You sound poetic

[plush pelican]

it sounds wrong

You'd just write

Die Tür meines Herzens ist nicht aufgegangen, sie ist bereits auf.

[signal cipher]

Emanual warned me about you

[plush pelican]

Emanuel himself said it sounds wrong

He then qualifies it by saying it's not "really" wrong, it just sounds wrong. Or poetic, if a poet does it

[signal cipher]

I wont discuss further about what is wrong in a language. It’s a problematic topic for here.

Als ich dich sah, hat mein Herz auf nicht gegangen, es hat aufgeflogen.

[plush pelican]

sein for helping verb

also for "auffliegen"

[signal cipher]

Als ich dich sah, ist mein Herz auf nicht gegangen, es ist aufgeflogen.

[vernal ermine]

Good morning friends. I hope you all fine.

Can i know what I have to learn additional for B2 from B1

[left salmon]

Yeah no haha
You wouldn’t even say that in a poem I think
Or at least I have never seen this in my life

[nova sparrow]

@plush pelican Dont't get me wrong: I think every native speaker would get, what you wanted to say, but even in a poem (you want to impress the other person, right?) you wouldn't use it.
The only one that came to my mind, using that twisted order is YODA, and there it's intended.

[signal cipher]

What kind of nuance it adds

I sometimes translate poem. These kind of nuance givers are useful for me.

[nova sparrow]

Then it's art and you can pretty much do what you want 😉
But it should stay believable, so I wouldn't use it for a romancing (is that even a word? 🤔 ) poem.
If you ever have the time, watch a german version of Starwars, you will have fun, analyzing how YODA speaks 😉

[signal cipher]

I mean what is the difference between nicht aufgehen and auf nicht gehen.

I can guess but I am not sure

[nova sparrow]

The 2nd is just a wrong formed negation:
If you want to play a bit with negations I would be up for it with some examples. 🫡

[signal cipher]

Ich kann auf Brot nicht verzichten.
Ich kann nicht auf Brot verzichten.
What is the difference between these sir yes sir

[nova sparrow]

In a spoken context I'd say, pretty much none, while some may say where the negation stands changes, what you emphasize:
Imho you emphasize much more while emphasizing the important word:
Ich kann auf BROT nicht verzichten -
Ich kann auf Brot nicht VERZICHTEN
In a written context you just can't do that.

Some examples with negation and aufmachen:
Ich kann die Türe nicht aufmachen
Ich kann nicht die Türe aufmachen
Auf kann ich die Türe nicht machen (but I can show you a backdoor)

Mach die Türe nicht auf
Mach nicht die Türe auf...

[signal cipher]

Danke schön mister

[nova sparrow]

Bitteschön

[plush pelican]

Man, why y'all responding to me? Boris (Russian character name guy) is the one claiming you can put nicht inside of a separable verb. I'm just telling him he needs "sein" for the helping verb and the subject needs to be "die Tür"

[plush pelican]

You're saying, between "auf Brot nicht verzichten" and "nicht auf Brot verzichten", the difference is smaller than the emphasis you get by giving "BROT" or "VERZICHTEN" special intonation with your voice?

Can these emphases work at cross purposes?

Ich kann nicht auf Brot VERZICHTEN.

[nova sparrow]

correct, but ofc only valid in spoken context 😉

[plush pelican]

In a written context, though, you have to use the placement of "nicht" to give emphasis, right?

because you don't have a voice to emphasize things with

[pure crescent]

so placing the nicht in front of the word emphasizes it, right?
iCh kann nicht auf Brot verzichten = BREAD is what I cannot live without
ich kann auf Brot nicht verzichten = I cannot LIVE WITHOUT bread

?

I'm asking because reading the different sentence structures doesn't really emphasize different things for me, so I'm unsure 🤔

[nova sparrow]

I've been pondering quite a while about this and came to the following conclusion:
If I were to phrase it with emphasis in a written context, only the negation would not be my cup of tea, rather
Es ist das Brot, auf das ich nicht verzichten kann (und nicht die Butter)
or
Ich kann auf Brot nicht auch noch verzichten.

[plush pelican]

I mean, what I've learned is that there is neutral position of "nicht", so it just negates the sentence generally, and then there is specific negation, which happens when you put nicht in front of something outside of its neutral position.

Based on Grammatik Aktiv's neutral word order (check the pinned messages in #questions to see it for yourself), the neutral position would be in front of any Verbgefährte like "auf etwas" in "auf etwas verzichten"

So, "Ich kann nicht auf Brot verzichten" would be neutral, general negation.
Whereas, "Ich kann auf Brot nicht verzichten" would be specific negation of "verzichten" (you can do something else with bread, but you can't do without it)

[nova sparrow]

there you go 👍 (see above)

[pure crescent]

thanks, checks out with my intuition

[plush pelican]

"Ich kann auf Brot nicht auch noch verzichten"

😵‍💫 "nicht auch noch" sounds...confusing, to me, 😄

What does that sentence mean?

[pure crescent]

I have been making do without so much - candy, meat, love. bread? that is the last straw! I cannot possibly survive without it!

[plush pelican]

So it's negating also?

I can't also do without bread (in addition to the other things I'm doing without)?

[nova sparrow]

It hints that you already skip already sth else (bread rolls e.g.)

[plush pelican]

I like how "Bread rolls" don't count as "bread", 🤣

[left salmon]

I know, I was hoping hed see it
Maybe I should’ve pinged him in the message

[nova sparrow]

It's the way to hint at the waiver rather than the bread, I'd say.

[nova sparrow]

Of course they don't, 😉
look at the costs: usually bread is far cheaper than bread rolls.

[plush pelican]

(In the US, we don't buy a lot of bread rolls, and the bread we buy is what Germans call 'toast', and it's sold in supermarkets rather than at dedicated bakeries.)

[nova sparrow]

Hmm, I see, If you ever come to Germany be prepared for an overwhelming abundant choice of "types" of bread!
Even in Supermarkets.

[thorn zodiac]

I spoke my tutor about it today also but basically Zustandspassiv

[plain umbra]

Okay, yeah, makes more sense.

[versed wasp]

was bedeutet Lastöse ?!

[stoic stag]

soweit ich weiß ist eine Lastöse eine Öse, also ein Ring zum einhängen eines Hakens, der für große Lasten gefertigt wurde

[pure crescent]

highly specialized tool, you can Google it for pictures. translations are often difficult for people who are not of the field with such specialized stuff.

[versed wasp]

danke für ihre hilfe leute

[versed wasp]

Unterschied zwischen Einrichtung und Vorrichtung?

[nova sparrow]

Hast Du schon hier geschaut:
https://www.dwds.de/wb/Einrichtung
https://www.dwds.de/wb/Vorrichtung

[vernal ermine]

Do anyone answer to my question?

[latent wadi]

@vernal ermine Ill answer this tomorrow

[vernal ermine]

Ok 👍

[wicked gulch]

hi

[iron rune]

Hey, any tips on how to pronounce "u" as in "genug", or really "u" in general? Lots of guides on how to pronounce "ü", but I cant find anything on just plain "u", and I've been told I don't do it right. Thanks!

[plush pelican]

Here are some audio recordings: https://forvo.com/search/genug/

[iron rune]

Thanks! I think I can hear the difference in these recordings between the english and german u, the german sounding more.. guttural? I was told to purse my lips more, but I don't think that fixed it, or I didn't purse them hard enough lol.

[nova sparrow]

For an u you don't have to put to much effort in, the ü is done with more pursing almost like whistling

[manic raft]

How do you recognize witch word is from witch declision

[tiny scaffold]

What do you mean? German doesn't have declensions like in Latin. Do you mean cases?

You usually need to know the gender of the noun and the article that is next to the noun

[manic raft]

So basically there is this declision table I learned like declision 1 had masculine and feminine but so did the other declisions so now I don't know witch it is

Like the word Tür is feminine so I know the gender but that doesn't really tell me the declision

[manic raft]

Oh wait I mean the special list of nouns

Like Der acker is declision 1 and like Der apparat is declision 2 so both are same gender how would I know witch is from witch declision

[plain umbra]

What do you mean by declension 1 and declension 2?

[manic raft]

this

Different continuations same gender so idk

[tiny scaffold]

Ah, so these ''declensions'' are nouns that decline in a similar fashion

To be honest, I don't think this is very useful because these words are not connected in any fashion that I can see, so it's a lot of rote memorization

Unless these ''declensions'' apply to a large number of words, in a similar fashion to Latin, I don't think it's worth it. It seems there's a ''declension 1'' missing from the image that I can see. Are there even more?

[manic raft]

It's a lot of words

A whole table

And after these "declensions" I'm given a exercise to give for example the genetive singular and nominative plurar for a word but I can't figure out from with "declension" it is

[tiny scaffold]

Where are you getting these exercises from?

[manic raft]

A pdf book

[tiny scaffold]

What is it called?

And what year is it published?

[manic raft]

I mean I think it's pretty old

Is this stuff irelavent nowadays

(should I just skip this)

[tiny scaffold]

I figured it'd be very old. I've never heard of these declension tables

[manic raft]

Cuz everything before this is clear

[tiny scaffold]

Maybe @plush pelican has an idea here

You might also wait for a native speaker to chime in

[manic raft]

Oh I thought you were a helper

[tiny scaffold]

I am

[manic raft]

I mean I would understand it if I just knew how to differentiate the declensions it's not explained

[tiny scaffold]

I can tell you some patterns, but I couldn't tell you which ''declension''

[manic raft]

Patterns?

[tiny scaffold]

I'm just not entirely sure how any of this would be helpful in the long run, because German plurals are, for the most part, hard to identify

[manic raft]

I mean this is a beginner book

Is Knabe still used?

Nowadays

[tiny scaffold]

Yeah, like there are a few classes of nouns that gain plurals in a similar fashion, which look similar to your system

[tiny scaffold]

It's a rather uncommon word nowadays, I think. We'd rather say ''der Junge''

[manic raft]

If it's similar then sure

[tiny scaffold]

https://germanwithlaura.com/plurals/

So here you can see the 6 categories of plurals

But see, it is tied to the spelling of the word, rather than the declensions based on case

Looking at your system again, the declensions seem to be based on what the plural of the nouns are, but without more information, it's hard to determine a way to make that useful

Instead, I think the 6 categories laid out in the website are much more useful

But they probably don't help your exercises that much, so I'm at a loss

[plain umbra]

Yes, you should skip it. No one learns these because they are not really useful.

Just memorise the plural when you learn the noun. It will be the same amount of work but less confusing.

[manic raft]

Yeah I will have to do that actually

Hopefully there won't be to many words like this

[plain umbra]

I don't get what you mean by that.

Almost all nouns have a plural form.

[zenith socket]

I think the table you sent combines all forms of declensions, even the one where you add an extra n at the end.

[manic raft]

So you can't know the declensions continuation just by seeing the word for example Stock you would need to remember the declension it's from?

[zenith socket]

its easier to just know what goes when where

[tiny scaffold]

The endings will help, so look at the link I sent

[zenith socket]

like the rules

[plush pelican]

Modern German only has 2 types of declension:

1. regular

2. the declension of weak nouns

"der Knabe" is, by the way, a weak noun

Regular declension is pretty simple:

1. in the combination (Dative, Plural), the noun adds an -n to the end, if possible.

2. For masculine and neuter nouns in the Genitive case, add an -s or -es if possible.

Otherwise, the noun doesn't change form (except for whatever changes it takes going from singular to plural, for example der Mann->die Männer)

"weak nouns" are a small group of almost entirely masculine nouns. Their declension is:

1. For every other combination except for (Nominative, Singular), add an -n or -en to the end of the noun.
   ,
2. for (Genitive, Singular), you might additionally need to add an -s after the -n/-en, but it depends on the noun, and you'll have to look up the noun to be sure.

[tiny scaffold]

@plush pelican for the genitive case masc / neut nouns, is there a preference for -s or -es? I remember seeing many nouns that can do both

zB ''des Königs'' vs ''des Königes''

[plush pelican]

Not sure

[plush pelican]

This looks almost like modern declension, except it's listing the (Dative, Singular) -e in parentheses. That has died out recently, and is now only found in fixed expressions like "im Sinne von X" or "nach Hause"

I've no idea why they're bothering to list "declension 2, declension 3, declension 4", as they make very little difference, except for "der Knabe", which is a weak noun and obviously very different.

I get the feeling this is continuing from a list of declension types from older German, where the different numbers used to actually mean something, but even in your picture, they mostly don't.

Btw, where is "declension 1" for your pic?

[plush pelican]

Wiktionary lists it as a regional word that's becoming obsolete, so...not exactly the most common word

I think I've seen it in Fantasy stuff before, when they're intentionally trying to go for an older vibe.

[tiny scaffold]

Yeah it's in Erlkönig

[plush pelican]

?

Oh, that's a poem from Goethe?

[tiny scaffold]

Das berühmte Gedicht von Goethe

Genau

[plush pelican]

Would it surprise you to know that I don't know the names of Goethe poems?

[tiny scaffold]

Yes 😂

Now, is it ''des Erlkönigs'' or ''des Erlköniges''?

[plush pelican]

Wiktionary lists both as possible

[tiny scaffold]

I know, and that's a problem because it's a liability

[plush pelican]

Sometimes, even the Germans allow multiple spelling possibilities

Especially after the 2004/2006 reforms

[tiny scaffold]

There were reforms post 1996?

[plush pelican]

In 1996, they tried to make the language a lot more consistent

In 2004/2006, they published addendums where they backtracked on some of that, allowing multiple valid spellings

[tiny scaffold]

So not all nouns follow this, right? Just a lot of them?

Like ''Richter'' only takes -s, not -es

But ''Buch'' does take both