questions-2

[vernal ermine]

I don't know the meaning of ausschlafen.

English translation is like sleep in

[plush pelican]

Do you know what "sleep in" means?

[vernal ermine]

No, bro first time I am hearing this.

[plush pelican]

sleep in = sleep late

[bitter ivy]

Can it be "until".

[plush pelican]

to sleep for longer than you're supposed to, and stay in bed

Sonntagvormittag = Sunday morning

Sie schlafen am Sonntagvormittag aus.
They sleep late on Sunday morning.

So, rather than getting out of bed, they sleep for longer on Sunday morning

[vernal ermine]

I thought that they started sleeping in the morning coming after a night shift.

[plush pelican]

I don't know who "they" are, my dude, 😄

But I mean, if you think of it from the perspective of society, workers who work a night shift sleep later than normal people do

so you could think of it as "sleeping late"

But I wouldn't personally call it that

Because that implies that they should be awake and are being lazy by sleeping so late.

But they are not being lazy, they simply have to sleep at a different time because they work the night shift

[vernal ermine]

I go with this meaning

[bitter ivy]

I use definitions tab in Google Translate, which shows English explanation(s) as well as similar German words and their meanings too. Can be a useful tool 👍

[plush pelican]

Those are unusual definitions of the word

[vernal ermine]

Yeah nice, but they given only sleep in.

[plush pelican]

They're not as common as the "sleeping late" I described

Btw, there are other websites for looking up definitions, like Dict.cc

https://www.dict.cc/?s=ausschlafen

And, once you can understand some more German, Wiktionary or DWDS

[bitter ivy]

Also

[outer edge]

Thanks for the explanation

[bitter ivy]

Looking meanings of similar words sometimes help me when offered meanings don't make sense to me + acquainting with new German words

[vernal ermine]

Do sleep in and sleep late are same?

[bitter ivy]

Of course it doesn't hurt to look to other sources, nothing to lose, everything to gain.

[plush pelican]

roughly, yes

There might be more advanced, subtle differences, because if you talk about "sleeping late", it implies you are being lazy

[vernal ermine]

Verschlafen and ausschlafen, what is the exact difference?

[plush pelican]

I believe (I'm not 100%) that "etwas verschlafen" = "etwas verpassen because you slept too long"

So you miss something because you slept through the time you were supposed to do it or be there

[bitter ivy]

I guess one is leisurely activity, other is when you are supposed to wake up at certain time. If I understood correctly?

[plush pelican]

Are you asking about "sleeping in" versus "sleeping late"?

[bitter ivy]

I meant first part for ausschlafen, other one is for verschlafen

[plush pelican]

oh, 🤔

I'm not entirely sure, to be honest

Hopefully a native can get in here and answer, 😅

[whole portal]

ausschlafen just means you're taking all the sleep you need

you only get up once you feel like it

verschlafen means you slept longer than planned and etw. verschlafen means missing something because of that

[plush pelican]

Is there a word associated with "sleeping too late because you're lazy"?

[whole portal]

being me

I mean you can use something like verpennen ig

[charred harbor]

I was literally about to make the same joke

[plush pelican]

so

ausschlafen = sleep in
verschlafen = oversleep

etwas verschlafen = sleep through sth.

[whole portal]

I don't think there's a special word that marks the reason, it's just verschlafen because you were lazy ig

[whole portal]

yes pretty much

if we are already on the topic durchschlafen means sleeping without interruption, wegschlafen means falling asleep and beischlafen means having intercourse

that's all the -schlafen words I can think of

[plush pelican]

wegschlafen means fall asleep?

not einschlafen?

[whole portal]

both do

[plush pelican]

🤯

[whole portal]

wegschlafen (or I would say wegpennen is more common) is just more colloquial

you're sort of drifting away

[plush pelican]

Dict.CC also lists:

• beschlafen
• entschlafen
• herumschlafen
• hochschlafen
• überschlafen
• unterschlafen
• vorschlafen
• zuschlafen

[whole portal]

out of those I only recognize hochschlafen

Which means sleeping with your boss to get a higher position

[plush pelican]

herumschlafen = to sleep around, apparently

etw. überschlafen = to sleep on sth.

[whole portal]

feels more like a direct translation from english to me

[plush pelican]

Now I need to cross-reference them with Duden? 😮

[whole portal]

überschlafen could be related to über etw. schlafen

[whole portal]

I mean it's possible that people use that word, it to me just feels less like something that evolved in German and more like something that got more common by English influences

[plush pelican]

Duden lists:

• beschlafen
• entschlafen
• überschlafen
• vorschlafen

[whole portal]

Okay seems I was right with überschlafen, time to look up the others

okay beschlafen once again just means fuck

entschlafen seems to be a posh/outdated word for dying

[plush pelican]

beschlafen = umgangssprachlich veraltend, have sex with someone
entschlafen = gehoben, to die
überschlafen = to sleep on sth.
vorschlafen = umgangssprachlich, to sleep in advance of a night where you think you won't get enough sleep

[whole portal]

And vorschlafen seems to be what the word suggests which I am not sure does actually work like that scientifically tho

[plush pelican]

so vorschlafen = to bank sleep in advance

[whole portal]

yeah

pre ... sleep

yeah I've never heard these before .-.

[plush pelican]

beschlafen, entschlafen, and überschlafen all show strongly downward curves on DWDS

vorschlafen, on the otherhand, is a flat line, and has growth after like 1990, but the absolute number is still very low

[whole portal]

Ich hab deine Mutter beschlafen. 😎

doesn't sound that great

[plush pelican]

I mean, it makes sense if you intend it as an insult, because doesn't it make "deine Mutter" sound like an object?

Usually, you be- verb an object, right?

[whole portal]

I mean maybe but the word itself sounds incredibly outdated

Ich habe deine Mutter bestiegen. might work better

[plush pelican]

"street insults with (unpronouncable name)"

[whole portal]

It's still yoshi32 it's just cyrillic letters

yi, o, sh, i

begattet isn't that great

too nice

I guess there is besamen

[bitter ivy]

I can hear this in a posh British accent, in a palace or something 😄

[whole portal]

Ich habe deiner Mutter beigelegen.

Ich habe den Beischlaf mit deiner Mutter vollzogen.

[bitter ivy]

slaps with gloves

[vernal ermine]

@plush pelican Vielen Dank❤

@bitter ivy Vielen Dank❤

@whole portal Vielen Dank❤

I have another question -when we use erste and when we use ersten?

[kind knoll]

erst- is declinable, so that would be dependant on the case and gender of the word

[vernal ermine]

When we use before dates?

[kind knoll]

example?

[acoustic breach]

"Am ersten Januar"?

[vernal ermine]

Am siebzehnten Januar fahre ich nach Berlin.

Heute ist der siebzehnte Erste.

[vernal ermine]

How this is made?

[whole portal]

wdym how this is made

der erste Monat

[vernal ermine]

I don't know the meaning of this sentence 😅

[plush pelican]

I believe "Erste" = 1st month (January)

[south zenith]

Correct

Seventeenth day, first month

[vernal ermine]

How the ending "e" Coming in the both the words?

[south zenith]

Der applies to both

[vernal ermine]

But I think Der is something that comes according to the noun.

[kind knoll]

and Erste here is a noun

[plush pelican]

...did you get this from Nicos Weg?

They explain it on the page

https://learngerman.dw.com/de/ordnungszahlen-1/l-40443451/gr-40445055

[vernal ermine]

Yes

[vernal ermine]

It is feminine

How it can be der

[plush pelican]

der Alte, die Alte
der Erste, die Erste

I think this is an adjectival noun, in which case it can be either, depending on what it is describing

[kind knoll]

when they turn into a noun it would still depend on what theyre referring to

Er ist der Beste

Sie ist die Beste

[plush pelican]

In other words: don't assume that what Google says is the 100% complete truth

https://www.dartmouth.edu/~deutsch/Grammatik/AdjectivalNouns/AdjectivalNouns.html

[vernal ermine]

Wie spat is es? Page 12 can you tell what they told in that audio?

[fervent kernel]

Is there any ways to explain 4 German cases that is easily understand?
Nominative, Dative, Gentive, Accusative
I still have trouble with 4 cases.

[vernal ermine]

It takes time, better to watch you tube videos.

[fervent kernel]

Can you recommend the useful recourses to learn these cases?

[vernal ermine]

https://youtu.be/xbWOui-V-U4?si=35JGbbI3chjCOV8T

https://youtu.be/bZL5OB61XXM?si=ENtNNnX1dg83VHf-

[runic wing]

Nominative: The main subject that preforms a verb || "Ich habe einen Text mit einem Stift geschrieben."
Accusative: The Direct Object that is being used || "Ich habe einen Text mit einem Stift geschrieben."
Dative: The Indirect Object that is "for" / "with" / "to" || "Ich habe einen Text mit einem Stift geschrieben."
Genitive: no clue bruh still a struggle for me.

[vernal ermine]

https://youtu.be/8VowGvnRU_s?si=Pgt_fLEjKsXuqTUZ

[vernal ermine]

https://youtu.be/-XjraxIEzrk?si=fSrxlebOjg7YXLC4

[vernal ermine]

@plush pelican bro did you get it?

[plush pelican]

page 12 of what?

I went to 12 of the thing I linked, and that was not on the page

[vernal ermine]

Lesson 8

[plush pelican]

Here is a playlist on cases: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKCEuz6wxDQk_EIj2hea3GbXiBdXfd3MW

[plush pelican]

"es ist schon fünf vor halb drei"

Of the ways to talk about time in German, I think this is the most confusing

Do you know how to figure out the time from that?

[vernal ermine]

Yes

I would like to know

[plush pelican]

So you don't know?

[vernal ermine]

Halb drei - 2.30

[plush pelican]

"yes" and "I would like to know" are two contradictory things you said there, so I'm confused

"yes" means you know how to figure it out
"I would like to know" means you don't know how to figure it out

I still don't understand-- do you know, or do you want me to explain?

[vernal ermine]

Little bit confusion is there for me in that @plush pelican

[plush pelican]

What is "fünf vor drei"?

[vernal ermine]

Why they used schon there

[vernal ermine]

2.55

[plush pelican]

so what is "fünf vor halb drei"?

[vernal ermine]

2.25

[plush pelican]

and if that is PM, that means 14.25

[plush pelican]

I think you didn't understand most of the conversation?

Voice 1: Peter kommt schon wieder zu spät
Voice 2: Wie viel Uhr ist es denn?
Voice 1: Es ist schon fünf vor halb drei.
Voice 2: Ja, ja, das ist immer so. Ich rufe ihn mal an.

Peter is once again late
What time is it, then?
It's already 2:25
yeah, yeah, it's always like that. I'll give him a call.

From the conversation, we can guess that they are trying to meet for a social gathering, but they cannot start because Peter is late

"It's already 2:25" as in, "(We aren't going to have enough time to do the social activity at this rate), it's already 2:25"

2:25 is already unacceptably late, even if he were to show up as they are talking

and because he is not yet there, one can assume that he will come even later than that

[vernal ermine]

In that audio I heard like schon funf uhr Drei. Previously @plush pelican

[plush pelican]

I mean, you just have to work on listening comprehension

[vernal ermine]

Is that audio fast?

[plush pelican]

Depends on how good you are at listening, 😄

It is actually somewhat slow compared to how people actually speak, but because you are a learner, everything seems fast to you

The more you listen, the more you will get used to recognizing the words, and then you can understand more things at a faster speed

And so you train your listening until you can listen to things faster and faster

and things that are more and more complex

Until hopefully you can understand everything people say

It took me over a year of listening almost every day to be able to understand things like the news at like 70% comprehension

and I am still working on my listening comprehension now for TV shows and things that are more complicated/have background noise

which, that's like over 2.5 years of listening

Of course, it also depends on how long you listen on each day

If you spend several hours a day, every day, you will train your brain faster

but that's hard to do

[bitter ivy]

I feel like games with a lot of German dialogue can help if you are into it. Or maybe audio books?

[plush pelican]

audiobooks are very complicated

Because books use more complex vocabulary than speech

Also, in German, if it's truly an audiobook, they are using a different tense than speech

[bitter ivy]

Yea, probably, kind of artistic style.

[plush pelican]

books are written in Präteritum, whereas in speech you use Perfekt for past tense

Even reading a book on paper and seeing the words, this switch is difficult at first

a lot of verbs have a vowel change or other changes for Präteritum, so you may have trouble recognizing verbs

podcasts are a lot easier for listening

[bitter ivy]

I can say games did help my English accent and vocabulary. May help in German too. However it can get very boring very fast

That's good if you can keep up with context

[vernal ermine]

When I do listening, vocabulary is missing and without meaning, it is hard to continue listening.

[plush pelican]

German also has something called "Hörspiele", sort of like radio plays, where it is basically a theater play, but entirely audio. In those, they use Präsens and Perfekt and not Präteritum, so they are in-between a podcast and an audiobook in difficulty

[plush pelican]

You're right: without enough of a vocabulary, listening is hard

[bitter ivy]

I 100% agree.

[plush pelican]

Which also implies: If you work on your vocab, that can be working on your listening

especially as a beginner/lower intermediate

[vernal ermine]

For vocabulary, sources are very less.

[plush pelican]

I use Anki app

digital flashcards

[kind knoll]

they have flashcards for goethes vocab from a1 to b1

[vernal ermine]

Anki doesn't work for me. It is boring.

[plush pelican]

Learning vocab is often boring. But it is worth it

[bitter ivy]

What I currently do for vocabulary is to read novels. I first started with a comic book that took 3 weeks to complete, then after a while I could finish a book or two in a day. So reading helps immensely.

[kind knoll]

well get used to it, there are barely any good ways to learn vocab other than flashcards

[plush pelican]

If you can do just 10 minutes a day, after a year, you will notice a huge difference

[bitter ivy]

Without struggling first it's impossible to get better

[kind knoll]

no one likes staring at a screen clicking buttons

[plush pelican]

What was your method for unknown words? Did you look them up immediately? Did you try to use context? Did you simply get a vague idea and be like, "that's good enough"?

I feel compelled to look up every word. I just need to know the meaning

[bitter ivy]

I try to understand the meaning from context and even try to dissect the word to extrapolate meaning, then to be sure and get a proper/different meanings looked it up as well. I never go with good enough, it is easy to be wrong in German.

[vernal ermine]

What makes boring for me is that often looking for meaning and it also distracts my mind.

[vernal ermine]

German words has different meaning for each word

[plush pelican]

Make sure you have flashcards where there is an example sentence that uses the word

[bitter ivy]

That is a problem at the beginning unfortunately.

[kind knoll]

yeah i add text to speech and examples to all my cards

[bitter ivy]

Stopping every other sentence is not fun

[plush pelican]

I mean, I still stop every other sentence in my current book 😅

[vernal ermine]

In flashcards they have limited words to use in a day.

[kind knoll]

current example lol

[plush pelican]

I'm not sure what app you are talking about, but for the Anki app, it is unlimited and free

[bitter ivy]

I too do stop but not as much as the beginning.

[kind knoll]

I find 80% of new words I dont know can be deduced from context

[bitter ivy]

Even for words I have seen couple of times. Some words have 30 meanings

[kind knoll]

yeah thats the most annoying part about new vocab

[bitter ivy]

Not to mention grammar blocks that prevent you to understand the meaning even though you know every words.

[kind knoll]

but hey, that means there are 30 words less you have to learn

[vernal ermine]

It shows daily study limit reached.

[bitter ivy]

That's the spirit 😄

[plush pelican]

You can change how many cards to study per day in the options

you can set it to whatever you want

[plush pelican]

Some pages there's nothing new. And sometimes, it's like this:

[marble halo]

can someone help me to translate a sentence in german to english? a friend of mine sent it to me

[plush pelican]

https://www.deepl.com/en/translator

[bitter ivy]

I know the feeling, there are quite "a few" words I would look up from this. But have to see this not a hinderance but means of learning new words

[vernal ermine]

I want something like an app / website which has listening and reading and a word meaning at the same time.

Any suggestion?

[plush pelican]

A free app?

🤷‍♂️ good luck

[vernal ermine]

Anything

[plush pelican]

I think LingQ can do listening and reading at the same time, and you can click on things and get a translation. But you have to pay a monthly subscription to do more than like, 20 words in a day or something.

[marble halo]

But can I trust this? I’m afraid of it being wrong

[plush pelican]

🤷‍♂️ It's pretty accurate

[marble halo]

alright thanks

[runic wing]

If you pass an "A1 Placement Test" are you now A1, or A2. If one or the other, are you "A0" before you pass "A1"?

[bitter ivy]

Language level has nothing to do with an exam, it just shows the level you are at with your current knowledge. If you pass A1 proficiency exam, you are at least A1.

[vernal ermine]

Good app

@plush pelican Vielen Dank ❤

[bitter ivy]

I suggest reading comic/manga, at least those have pictures to make it easy to get the context and make it less boring than reading an unending wall of text of novels.

[vernal ermine]

I like very much. Where I can find those?

[bitter ivy]

They are sold on stores or as e-book I believe

I don't know if there are free ones

[vernal ermine]

Vielen Dank ❤ @bitter ivy

[bitter ivy]

When you are up to speed you can move to normal books. Reading beats focusing on flashcards to learn new words, in my opinion.

[kind knoll]

Reading books and then putting words you didn't understand in flashcards>>

[bitter ivy]

That works too I guess but I find them boring a bit. Rather brute force it by repetition when it comes up again.

[kind knoll]

I get what you mean, i have 400 words written down from my aspekte neu b2 book that i am just too lazy to make into flashcards

if only there was a way to do it automatically

[bitter ivy]

Only way to not make it arduous is to make it as you go. If you wait until it's hundreds or thousands of words then of course it seems hard 😄

[plush pelican]

How? I have 1,700 marked words in my current book, and I'm not done with it yet.

[kind knoll]

Okay well I just did it with AI and i have those words in a deck now how didnt i think of that

[plush pelican]

If I'd done that with the other 6 books before this one...god

[kind knoll]

how big is your book

[plush pelican]

I'm on page 390

4,35 words per page

[kind knoll]

what the fuck are you reading? dostoyevsky?

[plush pelican]

Die Stadt der Träumenden Bücher

[kind knoll]

thats more vocab than a1 and a2 combined

[plush pelican]

I posted a thing of it earlier

[plush pelican]

.

[kind knoll]

Do you think all these words are important to learn, I mean in novels there gotta be some words that are basically never used

[plush pelican]

I mean, I don't make anything into flashcards

I just highlight it, look up the meaning, and move on with my life

[kind knoll]

Jesus

[plush pelican]

I try to read 20 pages in a day. at 4.35 words per page, that would mean 87 new flashcards per day. Who the hell has that kind of time?

[bitter ivy]

I do the same, I use google translate "Save" function. So if I look the same word again it pops up then I can shame myself for not remembering it, jk

[plush pelican]

I wouldn't even be able to review them fast enough

[bitter ivy]

Brute force all the way

[kind knoll]

how many words do you think you know argus

[plush pelican]

I am far beyond keeping track of it

And the tests I've done online show wildly differing results based on slight changes in input

🤷‍♂️ I have no idea

[kind knoll]

https://www.arealme.com/german-vocabulary-size-test/en/ try this

[plush pelican]

is this timed?

[kind knoll]

why would a vocabulary size test be timed that beats the purpose

[plush pelican]

🤷‍♂️

[kind knoll]

it is not

[plush pelican]

test instant-recognition

also, I can play elimination with this--should I, if I don't know the word?

let's go with "no"

Okay, now we're getting philosophical

Is the opposite of "defense" to attack, or to capitulate?

Both of those are in some ways the opposite

defending means you are fighting against something, capitulation means you are expressly NOT fighting against something anymore

I don't think that number is accurate. Despite not wanting to, I found myself playing elimination with several guesses.

If I really knew that many words, I wouldn't regularly encounter so many unknown words

[bitter ivy]

🤏

There should have been "I don't know button"

I think 26k words is pretty much above native

[plush pelican]

The English test has most of the same words, just in English

Is the German a copy of the English test with translated words?

[bitter ivy]

This feels like one of those facebook tests honestly

[plush pelican]

I think it is one of those facebook tests

[bitter ivy]

"Answer these 10 questions to know your IQ"

[plush pelican]

Again, getting philosophical: is the opposite of "compensate" to underpay, or to extort?

[kind knoll]

what the fuck

[plush pelican]

I suppose extort is more of an opposite?

[kind knoll]

okay but to get such a high number you gotta have a crazy vocab, the new vocab u r getting, you gotta understand, you are reading a 20 yo novel, meaning the vocab used is almost extinct

Also you have incredible understanding of German grammar, try doing a C1 mock exam please

[plush pelican]

There's no way that my German is near my English vocab size. English is my native language

[kind knoll]

well yeah its a flawed test but like i said, to have such a high number you still gotta have a huge vocab

like it might not be 26k but its at least 15k

[plush pelican]

I doubt that

[kind knoll]

You are underselling yourself

[plush pelican]

If it was 15k, I wouldn't be averaging 4.5 unknown words per page

I feel like it's got to be under 10k

[kind knoll]

like I said, its a 20 yo novel, the vocab used there is quite different and unusual

lol

i only knew like 80% of the words, the rest were a guess

[plush pelican]

"like that of a 8-year-old child"

[bitter ivy]

Btw even positions of answers are same for all languages

[plush pelican]

And they have a grammar mistake in there

[kind knoll]

Keep in mind I speak most arabic dialects and can communicate with all arabs except algerians and morrocans

[kind knoll]

I would say its just bad programming

print("Your vocab is the size of a", level_vocab)

@plush pelican would you say that this is accurate?

[plush pelican]

https://tenor.com/view/simpsons-unpossible-gif-5110385

[kind knoll]

I have the vocab of a 10 yo yet got a 9 on my ielts

truly interesting

[plush pelican]

Maybe the test is less accurate than you thought,

[kind knoll]

erily, albeit Basementality proffered such counsel two years hence!

https://tenor.com/view/fancy-wine-mustache-elegant-man-gif-14321023

[bitter ivy]

"So, die Herrschaften, verkrümelt euch" How does this mean "Off you go, move along there" It literally means crumble

I mean I can "imagine" the meaning behind it but still weird.

When I translate it in my language it shows similar to "to escape, scram etc"

[pure crescent]

https://www.dwds.de/wb/verkrümeln

Bedeutung #2

yes, literally means "to crumble away yourself", like a cookie. you're turning yourself into crumbles = you're disappearing without making much noise around your disappearance. isn't it cute!

[bitter ivy]

Thank you, it's pretty unusual. I doubt it's commonly used.

[pure crescent]

Don't think I ever actively used it even once in my life 😂 But everyone would understand it.

[bitter ivy]

I can see it 😄

[plain umbra]

Nachrichtenleicht has that. You can also use a book + audiobook for listening + reading.

[vernal ermine]

Vielen Dank ❤

[red palm]

So, why is it "gefangenen Forschern" in one situation and "gefangenen Forscher" in the other?

[long whale]

Because, as you correctly remarked, helfen requires Dativ (and what happens to most nouns in Dativ plural?), while retten requires Akkusativ. 🌻

[red palm]

the N-deklination? I heard about it but I don't really understand it... As far as I knew, most nouns use the N-Deklination in both Akkusativ and Dativ and use the normal form in Nominativ (eg. Herr- Herrn)

[long whale]

Huh? Nothing to do with N-Deklination. "das Glas, die Gläser" -> mit den Gläsern 🤷

der Forscher, die Forscher -> mit den Forschern

[red palm]

Well, I don't exactly know what N-Deklination is, I remember reading about it some time ago but I never actually understood how and why it works, so whenever I see an added "N" I just assume it is this stuff...

[kind knoll]

i think he meant it with weak nouns

[red palm]

so you just add an N when using the dative plural?

[long whale]

N-Deklination is sth special which applies to some nouns, like "Herr". It means an extra -[e]n is added in every single case except Nominativ singular.

[long whale]

Yes. Unless the noun has already acquired an -[e]n in plural: die Banane, die Bananen -> nothing changes in Dativ plural.

[red palm]

so, let me get this straight, whenever I use a noun in plural dative I have to add -(e)n to it if there isn't already -en ending?

[long whale]

Yes.

[red palm]

huh, well, no I have to keep count of this too, beside the weird n-deklination stuff...

and, just to be sure, you don't add the any -n in singular dative, like not "Mit dem Forschern* in" but "mit dem Forscher* in"

Like, those where you do add an -(e)n in singular dative are actually the n-deklination ones

[red palm]

Anylang has some books and you can click on the words to get their translation in context. Some books are premium but there are also many free books. You can look it in browser or the phone app.

While reading on the phone I use ReadEra as it has a dictionary with some words, but you can also highlight the words and automatically search them on google translate if they aren't in the dictionary (it has a "searh on google translate" option once you highlight a word).

Sometimes I also have a secondary book in my native language open in another book-reading app (I use Librera for this because it has a dark mode) with the main book in the german language in Readera and I read them both in parallel (I used to read the part in my native language first, then the same part in German, but now I do it the other way around).

[vernal ermine]

Vielen Dank ❤

[broken oasis]

"Inges Mutter reagiert entsetzt, als sie von Inges Erlebnis erfährt, und bereut ihre Entscheidung, Inge zu Doktor Bernstein zu schicken." or "Inges Mutter reagiert entsetzt, als sie von Inges Erlebnis erfährt, und ihre Entscheidung bereut, Inge zu Doktor Bernstein zu schicken." Which is correct? (it's the placement of "bereut")

[midnight bison]

Inges Mutter reagiert entsetzt als sie von Inges Erlebnis erfährt und bereut ihre Entscheidung, Inge zu Doktor Bernstein zu schicken.

First one

[broken oasis]

@midnight bison , but why? Isn't it a conjunction, and doesn't the verb need to be at the end?

[long whale]

I don't know what the "* in" is doing in there?

[long whale]

Yes.

[midnight bison]

Man kann beides benutzen. Das erste klingt aber Natürlicher.

[long whale]

"und" is a co-ordinating conjunction introducing a whole new main clause here: She is horrified. And she regrets her decision. She is not horrified to regret her decision, if you see what I mean? That is why the 2nd does not work at all. 🌻

You'd need a different scenario if you wanted to connect 2 subordinate clauses with "und".

[broken oasis]

@long whale Is "und" always a co-ordinating conjunction and therefore cannot introduce a subordinate clause?

[midnight bison]

U also cant use "und" and "," toghether

[long whale]

As I said: it can be used to connect subordinate clauses.

But here, you get "Inges Mutter reagiert entsetzt, als sie von Inges Erlebnis erfährt und [sie] bereut ihre Entscheidung, Inge zu Doktor Bernstein zu schicken."

Compare this with sth like "Inge findet es gut, dass ihre Mutter entsetzt ist und [dass sie] ihre Entscheidung bereut". In this case, Inge is glad about both things: her mother being horrified and her mother regretting her decision.

@broken oasis

[broken oasis]

@long whale But how do I know when "und" connect subordinate clauses and when it introduces a main clause?

[long whale]

When you see a German sentence? You just look at its word order.

[broken oasis]

Thank you, Susana

[vernal ermine]

Und du findest bestimmt auch noch ’ne gute Arbeit!
What is the 'ne after noch?

Is it eine?

Is it good to use like that?

[long whale]

It's colloquial.

[vernal ermine]

Danke 🤝

[red palm]

I saw that germans add the *in/innen when talking about the female... So Forscher would be male and Forscherin would be female... Forscherin.

[red palm]

yeah, I saw a lot of 'nen, 'n and 'ne used to talk about einen, ein and eine.

[vernal ermine]

Vielen Dank ❤

[long whale]

Yes, but in singular, the article and the adjective ending would have to change if you used "Forscherin".

[red palm]

yeah, I should have added "mit dem/der Forscher*in"

[vernal ermine]

I read many times doch and noch but still don't know it's usage.

Please give some basic information.

[red palm]

https://www.dict.cc/?s=doch

https://www.dict.cc/?s=noch

this is the basis but hopefully someone will be able to give you some examples, because I have a terrible headache right now and can't think of much 😦

[vernal ermine]

Vielen Dank ❤

@long whale Do you have idea?

I think both are same.

[fathom raft]

Noch essentially means still, doch is an interjection that usually means however, there are some more complexities with that one but that's the basic idea

[red palm]

Well, to give some examples

You could say
"Ich habe __noch __etwas zu tun" which would be - I still have to do something.

"Ich bin __noch __nicht bereit" - I am not ready yet

"weder Blitz __noch __Donner hielt sie auf" - Neither lightning or thunder stopped them

"Es ist __noch __kälter als ich dachte" - it is even colder than I thought

For doch... doch is also used as sort of a filler word some times (and could signify a closer bond). I mainly met the word in constructions where it signified "on the contrary" or "however":

"Du magst keinen Fisch, richtig?
-Doch, ich mag ihn" - You don't like fish, right? -On the contrary, I do.

"Ich bin doch hier" -> something you would say a friend, but you would say "Ich bin hier" to a boss.

"Zielvorgaben sollten anspruchsvoll, doch erreichbar sein" -> Targets should be ambitious, but doable

There are surely more ways to use "doch" but these are the mains one I've heard it used.. either to mean "however", "on the contrary" or as a filler word to make a sentence more familiar/casual/friendly.

even in that link I sent, you can see the "Gewiss doch!" and "Klar doch!"

You'll understand it better as you learn the language because you will hear these filler words (like doch, mal, etc.) more and more and you will just understand them and their role, idk how to explain it.

[vernal ermine]

sometimes without using doch und noch, the sentence gives a good meaning. I don't know Why they are using it? 🙄

Is it necessary to use it?

[red palm]

well, noch is pretty necessary from what I saw, but doch can be dropped in some cases, it depends on the context. Like sure, you could respond with "Ich mag Fisch" and drop the "doch", but it would sound a bit robotic and not how a native would speak... Or, as I said, in some cases it implies a closer/friendly connection between the two speakers. You could avoid it, but the sentiment behind the words would also change slightly.

like "Ich bin hier" -> you would say to a superior that calls you and asks if you are at a place, but "Ich bin doch hier" could be something like "Hey, I am here, am I not?"

Hope someone corrects me if I'm wrong here, but this is what I understood from how I saw the word used.

[vernal ermine]

Is it only used for speaking?

[red palm]

what do you mean by only used for speaking?

formal/informal?

[vernal ermine]

Just used for speech or it is also used in writing?

[vernal ermine]

I also would like to know about that.

[red palm]

Well, as I am not a native, I can't say with certainity and I don't want to give you false info, so hopefully a native speaker can clear this up.

[vernal ermine]

@red palm Vielen Dank❤

[icy flax]

Ein Gardener bespricht das Anzüchten von Ingwer und sagt:

Wir hätten es jetzt definitiv nicht ausbügeln müssen, wir hätten es im Topf lassen können.
Wenn es das Wetter wieder passt, an 'nem warmen Standort stellen, angießen, und da treibt er wieder aus
https://youtu.be/UqCNRazJ1p8?t=181

Ich verstehe das Wort ,,ausbügeln" da nicht. Meint er mit "ausbügeln" sowas wie "ernten", weil er gerade den Ingwer aus dem Erde genommen hatte? Die Wörterbücher gehen so "ausbügeln: durch Bügeln etwas entfernen"

[plush pelican]

Ich glaube, das Wort war eher "ausbuddeln" oder so

Exactly at the time stamp given in the link

https://www.dwds.de/wb/ausbuddeln

[long whale]

*Wenn es jetzt das Wetter wieder passt, an 'nen warmen Standort stellen, angießen, dann treibt er wieder aus; aus der Erde genommen 🌻

[icy flax]

Genial! Ich hörte auch "D", aber dachte, er spricht "G" einfach anders. Jetzt haben sich all die Spitze getroffen. Das Enigma wurde erklärt. Vielen dank!

[icy flax]

Verstehst du das was er hier sagt?
https://youtu.be/UqCNRazJ1p8?t=269

Hier spricht er von Laden, wo man gute Ingwer kaufen kann. Nach der Aufzählung sagt er "Kopf-wichs-sprung", was wahrscheinlich soviel wie "jump heads in!" bedeuten muss.

[pure crescent]

G'hopst wie g'sprunge = Gehopst wie gesprungen = local dialect phrase meaning "it doesn't matter" (hopsen and springen are synonyms, so whether one is gehopst or gesprungen makes no difference)

[long whale]

"gehupft wie gesprungen" seems the most common form. ;)

[icy flax]

what the actual f#$%. I would never guess it

Die Weise wie er es ausspricht, lol.

[pure crescent]

the man has a noticeable dialect (Schwäbisch, maybe Badisch?) — but not an overpowering one

[devout rain]

"Ich trinke in die bar" oder "Ich trinke in das bar?"

[delicate tiger]

"die Bar" in Nominativ, welcher Fall wird hier benötigt?

[devout rain]

akkusativ

[long whale]

@pure crescent Help, please? For the life of me, I can't explain why "bleiben" seems so completely wrong to me here: Bis heute bleiben die einsamen alten Männer auf der Insel.

[devout rain]

aber feminin akkusativ and nominativ ist dasselbe

[long whale]

Is the question "Where?" or is it "Where to? Towards where?"

[devout rain]

ah, ich brauche dativ, ja?

Ich trinke in der Bar

[pure crescent]

I'm afraid I can't help. It sounds fine to me 🤔 What's the context? Hearing it, I imagine it as a closing word for a documentary about some island that's experiencing brain drain, or something. "Viele junge Leute sind abgereist. Aber bis heute bleiben die..."

[long whale]

Interesting. Thanks. Well... if it's just me... 🥹

[pure crescent]

As in, the word order puts heavy emphasis on the fact that they still stay until now.

What other word would you use? 🤔

[long whale]

Context is exactly that: everybody else left/died long ago. I wanted to go for sth like: Nur... sind ... geblieben. That's why I got so confused.

I obviously need to have my head examined if you feel it's fine. 🤕

[pure crescent]

10pm Sunday will do things to you 😄

[pure crescent]

I think nur sind geblieben is better — feels more natural, flows better, and is heavier.

[long whale]

Okay, well, many thanks! 🌻

[icy flax]

@pure crescent, auch Dialekt da?

"gießen aber ne zu hei gießen"
https://youtu.be/UqCNRazJ1p8?t=753

[delicate tiger]

"arg"?

[long whale]

aber net zu arg gießen

= aber nicht zu sehr/viel gießen

[icy flax]

Dank Euch, @delicate tiger und @long whale!

[plush pelican]

Does he not have an "ei" kind of sound in there somewhere? Do one or more dialects pronounce the a in "arg" like "ei"?

[long whale]

To me, it sounds like "ähr" (apart from the guy's dialect, the problem is the next word starting with a "g"), and yes, I think there is more than one dialect where a long a changes into a kind of ä.

[whole portal]

seems to me like a, [movement towards g], glottal stop, gießen

[icy flax]

das erste Mal hörte ich "nicht zu <high> gießen"

als wäre es ein denglisches Slang

[plush pelican]

He definitely has an i-like sound in there, if you slow it down.

[whole portal]

yeah idk if that's his dialect or just him sorta fumbling his word tho

[devout rain]

Does this sentence make sense I say "I'm moving to berlin"

Ich ziehe nach Berlin?

oder

Ich umziehe nach Berlin

[kind knoll]

ich ziehe nach berlin

[grave sage]

or ich ziehe nach Berlin um

[charred harbor]

Yeah, "ich umziehe nach Berlin" doesn't work because it's a split verb.

[vague rain]

Guten Morgen! Warum benutzt Man "Nachbarn" anstelle von "Nachbars" in dieser Satz? "Der Mann meines Nachbarn ist vorgestern umgezogen."

[plush pelican]

When you have nouns that have N-Declension, it also often messes with their form in Genitive case as well, such that they only have an -n ending and no -s

"Nachbar" appears to be a special case where some people consider it to have N-Declension (and thus do "des Nachbarn") and others consider it to not have N-Declension (and thus do "des Nachbars"): https://deutschlernerblog.de/nachbar-oder-nachbarn

The blog recommends treating it as having N-Declension, though

Here is a video on N-Declension, if you don't know about that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGn56Qj9h2w

[vague rain]

Super! Das ist sehr hilfreich. Vielen Dank.

[plush pelican]

Note: this isn't true for all nouns with N-Declension. Annoyingly, some N-Declension nouns seem to both add an -n to the end and an -s in Genitive, so they end up ending with -ns

and there seems to be no clear rule for when this happens

[kind knoll]

Sometimes I hate German

[plush pelican]

"der Name", for example, becomes "des Namens"

[vague rain]

that's quite interesting, danke 🙂

[vague rain]

can somebody tell me what is the difference between these two?

[acoustic breach]

Konjunktiv 1 is indirect speech used in very formal settings like newspaper

Er sagt, dass er das machen werde

Konjunktiv 2 is the englisch equivalent of "would [verb]". It is used to express "irreale Vermutung", politeness, etc

[acoustic breach]

In usual speech, people would just say "dass er das machen wird" and not use the Konjunktiv 1

And I am guessing Konjunktiv 1 is a C level topic because i did not learn it when i was in B1/2

[vague rain]

ach so! Vielen Dank, ich bin noch immer auf Level A. 😄

[acoustic breach]

My opinion:
You have to eventually learn K2, especially to show politness and stuff

but for K1 I dont know when I am going to use it except when reading news

[vague rain]

yes, i'm working on K2 right now ! 🙂 i'm often confusing it with präterium and even with K2 of the verb sein... but im slowly getting there...

[dull jackal]

i have a question for the Natives and the people who have gone "Native" lol

What would you say are some of the easiest jobs to get coming from another country? Mainly the US?

I have already heard from DeutscheBahn that they could potentially hire me, even with just B1 level German, and I have options at a couple of offices....but I am not 100% sure I will get them, and would like to expand my searches.

[pure crescent]

#1033125270217048246 🙂

[rapid zodiac]

Are Umkleide and Umkleideraum the same?

[peak moat]

'Umkleide' is for me the small little changing room area in a store and 'Umkleideraum' is an entire room to change clothes for example in a gym but I think people also refer to the 'Umkleideraum' as 'Umkleide'

[long whale]

Yes. It's just that "Umkleide" is colloquial.

[vague rain]

hallo, ich habe eine Frage...

warum ist es "seiner" ?

ist Rotkäppchen kein Mädchen?

[bleak rivet]

Rotkäppchen ist ein Mädchen allerdings ist der Artikel des Rotkäppchens "das" aufgrund des Diminutiv

words ending on -chen and -lein are usually neuter

[vague rain]

ach ich verstehe das jetzt!

vielen dank, that makes sense

[sudden tendon]

How come some things end in 's? I see it in subtitles, but I don't know why it does that. Does it have a different sound?

[echo ore]

it depends on the gender and the case of the sentences. that is why sometimes it end in R/N/M/S

[sudden tendon]

oh but with the apostrophe, it is due to case?

[echo ore]

ohhhh the that means the word is shortened

for example. . wie geht es dir = wie geht's

[sudden tendon]

ohhhhh

interesting

is it informal then?

I should know the whole thing first before I do that

[echo ore]

yeah. we learners dont usually use that, it is more common to natives

[tranquil flower]

Wie geht's dir? ~ Wie geht es dir?

[sudden tendon]

[vernal ermine]

What is am Schreibtisch?

[plush pelican]

an + dem = am

If there's a more specific meaning, idk

[vernal ermine]

What meaning I can take?

[plush pelican]

literally, it means "at the desk"

[vernal ermine]

auf dem Schreibtisch and am Schreibtisch. Do both are different?

[plush pelican]

I believe "am Schreibtisch" is like you're next to it, perhaps in a seat, and "auf" means you are standing on top of the table

[vernal ermine]

Vielen Dank ❤

[vernal ermine]

I understand now 😊

[vague rain]

Guten Tag! Was ist der Unterschied zwischen "vorlesen" und "lesen"?

Ich übe eine Satz "Können wir die Geschichte zu Ende vorlesen" und weiss nicht, warum es vorlesen stattdessen lesen ist.

[long whale]

lesen just means "to read", i.e. it's usually done silently. vorlesen means "to read out loud" (to entertain others, like a mother reading bedtime stories to her children, or in class, to practice pronunciation)

[vernal ermine]

Can we use möchten und gern in same sentence?

What can be the difference in the meaning when möchte is used with gern and without gern?

[long whale]

None.

[vague rain]

vielen Dank 🙂

[vernal ermine]

Thanks

[vague rain]

ich habe noch eine Frage... i couldn't understand it from the dictionary. Would "melden sich" be "melden dich" oder "melden dir"?

to raise hand ^

[long whale]

to raise one's hand = sich melden -> Melde dich! (Raise your hand! OR Say when! OR ~ Let me know! - depends on context)

Do you know about "Du wäschst dich" vs. "Du wäschst dir die Hände" - ?

[vague rain]

no i dont think i do...

i do know the second one is to was your hands

[long whale]

Yes. The verb "waschen" requires a direct object/Akkusativobjekt. That's why we add in "mich/dich/sich" for "I wash/I'm washing myself/yourself/himself/herself/itself". So far, so good?

[vague rain]

yep 🙂

[long whale]

So, if you add in what exactly it is you're washing, which part of yourself, this becomes the direct object/Akkusativobjekt -> I'm washing. - What are you washing? - Hands.

But German, instead of saying "my hands", goes for turning "myself/yourself/himself" into the indirect object/Dativobjekt:

[vague rain]

So ich wasche mich, i wash myself, ich wasche mir die Gesicht, i wash my face

[long whale]

Ich wasche mir (Dativobjekt) die Hände (Akkusativobjekt)

[long whale]

das Gesicht (neuter noun) - Yes.

[vague rain]

Oops sorry!

[vague rain]

Klingt ziemlich kompliziert 😅😅

[long whale]

I get that. But this happens a lot in German. So, try to wrap your head around it - knowing about this is going to come in extremely handy. 🌻

Like... Ich kaufe ein Auto. = I'm buying a car.

(a car being the Akkusativobjekt, obviously)

[fickle dune]

Why does anything in german sounds so aggressive?

[long whale]

So, if you want to clarify and say who you're buying the car for, this person will be in Dativ - either "mir" or "meiner Mutter" for example. @vague rain

[long whale]

How many Germans have you talked to so far?

[fickle dune]

2/3 maybe 4

[vague rain]

Yes that makes sense 🙂 so i should always figure out those when writing sentenced?

[long whale]

And everything they said to you sounded aggressive, did it?

[fickle dune]

Not everything but pretty much

[long whale]

The problem won't always come up. Still, I think knowing about the principle is pretty neat. ;)

[charred harbor]

Do you mean wunderbar?

[fickle dune]

German was made from people who screams, for people who screams

[charred harbor]

Not really (?)

[vague rain]

Ive never heard that before

[long whale]

Plus, this ties in with why you were unable to figure out whether melden worked with "mich" or "mir". Because in military context, "etwas melden" is used for "to report". So, if you report something to someone... Can you see where this is going? @vague rain

[fickle dune]

KRAKENWAGEN!!!!!!

While in english it's just: ambulance

[vague rain]

So ich melde mich would be "i raise myself"? 😃

[long whale]

Please stop spouting internet memes.

[fickle dune]

But it's true

[long whale]

That sounds a bit weird... 😄

[charred harbor]

Krankenwagen

And it’s not true

[vague rain]

But do i get the idea?

[long whale]

I think so, yes. 😄

[vague rain]

Super!!!!! Vielen Dank Susana 😄

[vernal ermine]

Ich esse nicht gern Obst zum Frühstück.2.Ich esse gern nicht Obst zum Frühstück.

Do both are same?

[delicate tiger]

Second one doesn't work

[vernal ermine]

Why?

[delicate tiger]

"I Iike eating not fruit for breakfast" same in English

[vernal ermine]

Thanks

Apfel und Orangen sind Obst. Can we use die in front of Obst?

[vague rain]

I think you could say "Ich esse gern kein Obst" though.

[long whale]

"I like eating no fruit" - ? Really?

[vague rain]

yeah? LOL

you cant say so?

[long whale]

In German, it definitely makes no sense. Or, well, it might - if you were trying to say sth like "The act of not eating fruit makes me happy" which...

I mean, you'd most definitely go for a different construction if you did want to say this.

[vague rain]

yeah i was moreso going for the approach of "i eat no fruit"

so that's my bad

[long whale]

Well, that's simply "Ich esse kein Obst" (I don't eat fruit; I eat no fruit)

[vernal ermine]

Why it is wrong? @delicate tiger

[long whale]

You got the gender of Obst wrong. Plus, it's an uncountable noun, i.e. it has no plural. -> Same as in English, Apples and oranges are the fruit. simply doesn't work.

[vernal ermine]

Äpfel und Orangen sind die Früchte, die ich besitze. What about this? Does it works?

[long whale]

No. Normally, you cannot use countable nouns without any article in singular.

[vernal ermine]

I am confused now .

[river glacier]

Wenn die Früchte reif wären, half Ilse bei der Ernte. Is das richtig?

[long whale]

No. You're effectively saying "If the fruit were ripe, Ilse helped with the harvest"

-> Are you talking about a conditional (If the fruit were ripe, Ilse would help) or about a fact (Whenever the fruit was ripe, Ilse helped) - ?

Either way, one of the verb forms needs to be changed.

[vernal ermine]

Which noun are you referring?

[long whale]

der Apfel, die Äpfel = countable noun

[river glacier]

I was given a text to be constructed "Das Leben von Ilse Obermeier"
Wenn - die Früchte reif waren - bei der Ernte helfen

[vernal ermine]

I changed it, I want to know about the other part of the sentence ( die Früchte).

[long whale]

So, why did you use "wären" (= would be, but not as in the sentence: When I was a child, my grandfather would tell me stories = past habit, because this simply doesn't exist in German) - ?

[river glacier]

Is autocorrect from my phone

So is it correct without the umlaut?

[long whale]

Yes.

[river glacier]

Okay

Thank you

[long whale]

Yes. Now, it's correct.

[vernal ermine]

But you told that for fruit we don't use an article before that because it doesn't work . Now, how is it correct?

[long whale]

You changed "das Obst" (uncountable) to "die Frucht, die Früchte (countable). Plus, Apples and oranges are the fruit. doesn't make sense, same as Äpfel und Orangen sind das Obst., while "Apples and oranges are the fruit [which] I own." is fine, just like "Äpfel und Orangen sind das Obst, __das __ ich besitze." OR "Äpfel und Orangen sind die Früchte, die ich besitze."

[vernal ermine]

Vielen Dank ❤

[rapid zodiac]

Are party and feier the same?

[wise pendant]

Yes, for all intents and purposes

[long whale]

Please note capitalization of nouns is not optional in German: Party, Feier 🌻

[vernal ermine]

Ich mag Haustier am liebsten. /Ich mag am liebsten Haustier.

Which is correct?

[wise pendant]

none of them is correct, but the order of the objects can be switched around as you did

[vernal ermine]

Ich mag Kaffee nicht gern/Ich mag nicht gern Kaffee.
Which is correct?

[vernal ermine]

Why it is wrong?

[wise pendant]

because the word Haustier can't be used like that

[wise pendant]

The first is the better version. The second sounds pretty weird

[vernal ermine]

I didn't understand what you are telling?

[wise pendant]

You either add something to your sentence or change Haustier to plural. It doesn't work how its written there

[vernal ermine]

Weird means? In what sense are your telling?

[long whale]

#questions-2 message

[wise pendant]

strange, ungrammatical

[pure crescent]

"I like pet best". That sounds strange in English too, right?

[vernal ermine]

Can this sentence " Ich mag nicht gern Kaffee" also be used?

[wise pendant]

You shouldn't use it like that

[vernal ermine]

What reason?

[wise pendant]

Because natives don't use it like that. Or which reason you want to know`?

[vernal ermine]

Ich mag das Haustier am meisten / Ich mag die Haustiere am liebsten?

How about this? I changed according to your suggestions

[wise pendant]

Still strange sentences, but both are grammatically fine

[vernal ermine]

How you will answer to this? Magst du gern den Kaffee?

[wise pendant]

People will understand what you mean with it, but the word order is unnatural

[vernal ermine]

How I can tell that better?

[pure crescent]

Magst du Kaffee?

[wise pendant]

Already told you that

gern after Kaffee

[pure crescent]

Magst du Wildtiere, Nutztiere oder Haustiere am liebsten? - Ich mag Haustiere am liebsten.

then the sentence would make sense. otherwise, I do not know what you are trying to tell me.

[wise pendant]

But in questions adding "gern" seems weird nonetheless

[wise pendant]

Btw your use of the word "tell" in english threw me off a couple times

[vernal ermine]

I didn't understand. Do you feel I was like rude?

[wise pendant]

No, that word is just not used how you did in English

[vernal ermine]

Es tut mir leid,I am not native English bro. So I don't know.

[wise pendant]

It's ok, just wanted to let you know

[vernal ermine]

So isn't it good to use gern in questions? Which purpose / situation we use gern?

[wise pendant]

If you talk about something you yourself like (doing).

There are many situations where its used.

Difficult to name them all here

You should just be aware in general, that any sentence you construct yourself without having heard it yet might not sound natural, as it depends on context when and how any word is used.

And the next time you stumble on a word you are unsure about, its better to find example sentences and learn/memorize the situation in which natives would use that word

Mostly the reason why certain things are used like this or that doesn't matter, as long as you had seen enough example sentences you will develop a feeling for which word to use in which situation

[vernal ermine]

Thank you bro 🙂❤ @wise pendant

[wise pendant]

You're welcome!

[rapid zodiac]

Are Ehe and Trauung the same?

[long whale]

No.

[rapid zodiac]

Nevermind, I mixed it up

[dull jackal]

Are there any good games that are good for learning german?

[echo sleet]

german translations always sound off IMO

[dull jackal]

Yea, thats why I am asking. I need one thats not, or an actual language learning game.

[echo sleet]

why need games tho
won't vids do?

[dull jackal]

You cannot play inside a video.......lol

[echo sleet]

ikik

[long whale]

Try lyricstraining.com - keeping in mind something you might not usually go for, like children's songs or pop would probably be more useful for language learning than, say, rap.

[dull jackal]

Will check it out

Now if they only do Rammstein songs and Die Prinzen, then I am set lol

[wicked pumice]

I find latin languages transfer vocabulary very easily to English (e.g, -tion words, -ly words, etc) Are there large conversions that help maximize German vocab like this? Especially if like latin conversions one gets often a noun and a verb from the same source (e.g., organization, organizar,...). I know the German -ieren ending for this, but it seems less frequently used

[long whale]

That's the problem, yes. Many of those words exist in German, but chances are they're quite rare, or only used in scientific papers - or worse, have changed their meaning. This is an excellent source for checking word frequency (graph on the right, bars on top of graph): https://www.dwds.de/wb/Bifurkation The German version https://www.dwds.de/wb/Gabelung isn't very common, either, but if you look at the numbers, it's still used 10 times more frequently than the Latin version -> chances are, a great many German native speakers wouldn't even know what the Latin version means. 🌻

[wicked pumice]

Great thanks, are there other ways to convert English to German for vocabulary?

I often find I just don't know how to reach the German word without looking it up

e.g., busy (occupied) -> beschäftigt

its hard to predcit

or is there a way to break things up to get more out of the vocab one has already learned?

[quartz galleon]

Anyone who know german well can help dm me if you can

[long whale]

Ehh - no. Looking up words in dictionaries is part and parcel of learning a language. Trying to come up with your own version would end in gibberish, trust me.

[quartz galleon]

Its A1.1 german

[wicked pumice]

Less making things up but more recognizing patterns. Of course any preposition + schlafen will deal with sleep but its hard to predict exactly

in contrast, sometimes, we can see things in latin that suggest words naturally

consequences suggests the verb seguir for example

I'm hoping to find some tricks to extract more vocab from a smaller set of words in German

[long whale]

I totally get what you'd like to do. Unfortunately, learning about German prefixes and suffixes, for example, will only help you to understand words - and only to a certain extent! It will not help you to instantly acquire a larger vocabulary. I mean, even if you managed to find a place with lots of these kinds of "families" as in the example here: https://wortwuchs.net/grammatik/wortfamilie/, you'd still have to look up the individual words to find out about their meaning, since "fahren" = to drive, and "gefahren" = driven, but "die Gefahr (sg), die Gefahren (pl)" = danger/s.

[wicked pumice]

Thanks and that's of course fair. I was asking if it existed not trying to will it so 🙂

[fervent kernel]

Heeeey

Any one to speak English with me

??

[long whale]

Wrong server, I think. Definitely the wrong channel.

[fervent kernel]

Why

??

[long whale]

Have you checked the server name? Plus, the question channels are specifically for questions about the German language (grammar, vocab, usage).

[fervent kernel]

Hmmm

Why ur angry

[wicked pumice]

They are not angry, just clarifying. I wish you luck finding a good place to practice.

[reef moss]

Die Präposition "unter" bezeichnet manchmal einen Begleitumstand. Ein Beispiel: "unter Tränen/Angst/Zittern etw. tun". Wird unter in dieser Weise im folgenden Satz verstanden?: "Unter Erkenntnis dieser hochgesetzten Erwartungen spürte ich eine Pflicht in mir, mit Kompetenz zu beraten"

Gemeint ist: Man hat die Erwartungen erkannt und aufgrund dessen spürt man die oben erwähnte Pflicht

[lofty gull]

auf jemanden scharf wie Nachbars Lumpi sein - als ein große Lust auf jemandem haben. Was ist genau diese Nachbars Lumpi? Ich will besser diese Wendung verstehen.

[delicate tiger]

spitz wie Nachbars Lumpi - sexuell aktiv wie der Hund des Nachbarn

[vernal ermine]

Mein Bruder macht mehr Hausarbeit als ich.

Why we can't use mich instead of Ich in this sentence?

[south zenith]

bc of your relation to the action
the implication is
'Mein Bruder macht mehr Hausarbeit als ich [mache]'

als mich would instead compare how much chores youre brother does with how much he does you
the two things being compared match case in simpler terms

[vernal ermine]

I didn't understand this point.

[south zenith]

#questions message

[vernal ermine]

@south zenith so meaning completely changes bro.

[south zenith]

thats what i said

als mich comapares you to the hausarbeit, both of which in this case your brother is doing
als ich comapres you to your brother, both of which are doing hausarbeit

[vernal ermine]

Mein Bruder macht mehr Hausarbeit als mich. What meaning does it gives? @south zenith

[kind knoll]

ich**

[south zenith]

Mein Bruder macht Hausarbeit öfter als er mich macht

Mein Bruder macht mehr Hausarbeit als mich
this compares 'Mein Bruder macht Hausarbeit' with 'Mein Bruder macht mich'

what you want is
'Mein Bruder macht mehr Hausarbeit als ich'
this one compared 'Mein Bruder macht Hausarbeit' with 'Ich mache Hausarbeit'

[vernal ermine]

I understand now better 🙂

[vernal ermine]

After als does verb comes in the second position?

[south zenith]

after als is a subclause/nebensatz, verb pushed to the end

[vernal ermine]

@south zenith Vielen Dank ❤

[vernal ermine]

Max findet Yoga viel besser als Joggen. Can we use 2 adjectives together?

[acoustic breach]

Referring to "viel besser"? Yes

[vernal ermine]

Why viel not changed to mehr?

[plush pelican]

more better?

I think it's like quantities, not comparisons

ein wenig besser
viel besser

ein wenig schlimmer
viel schlimmer

This lines up with English: much better, much worse

[vernal ermine]

Is this used to stress even more?

[plush pelican]

yes.

I will make up some numbers for comparison

Your German has gotten better = Your German has gone from 3 to 5
Your German has gotten much better = Your German has gone from 3 to 7

"much better" = a significant improvement

"much worse" = the exact opposite, a significant decline

[vernal ermine]

If we use reflexive verb, in that sentence when subject comes in the 3 rd position , where reflexive pronomen sich goes?

Do you have any idea? @plush pelican

[plush pelican]

So you're thinking of for instance

Heute erinnere ich mich an meinen Hund, der vor 6 Monaten gestorben ist.

?

I believe it depends on if the subject is 1) a pronoun, or 2) a full noun

1. if the subject is a pronoun, it comes before other pronouns, including the reflexive pronoun
2. if the subject is a full noun, it comes after the reflexive pronoun, because of the rule that "pronouns precede full nouns"

Heute erinnert sich Paul an seinen Hund, der vor 6 Monaten gestorben ist.

[vernal ermine]

Bro what if the verbs comes in the last like in perfekt tense or modal verb or nebensatze , what will be the position of sich? @plush pelican

[plush pelican]

Same idea

the subject is mixed in with other stuff

[vernal ermine]

Does reflexive pronomen get fixed with verb at the end or it comes with subject or other verbs?

If it comes with other verbs, does sich comes before or after that verb? @plush pelican

[plush pelican]

The reflexive pronoun is a pronoun. Did we talk about the rule of "old before new" before?

#questions-2 message

Yes, we did

pronouns tend to be old information, meaning they go near the front of the sentence, the left side of the sentence

[vernal ermine]

Yeah 👍

[vernal ermine]

Bro I didn't see this type of sentence , do you have some sentence for that?

[plush pelican]

one sec

"sich" can be a little flexible; sometimes it can be before the subject, sometimes after the subject, especially in Nebensätze, but it will almost always be near the front of the clause, the left side.

It won't generally be near the verb at the end

Unless the sentence is very short and there isn't anything else in the sentence that would come between "sich" and the verb

[vernal ermine]

Ich werde mich treffen.
Does it correct?

@plush pelican

I used reflexive verb with werden.

[plush pelican]

I mean, usually you meet with somebody, 😅

[vernal ermine]

Yeah👍

[plush pelican]

Ich werde mich mit meinem Bruder treffen.

here, "werden" is not the passive thing, it's future tense

"werden" = will

I will meet up with my brother.

This is grammatically correct

The problem now is: In reality, Germans rarely actually use future tense

Instead, they use present tense, and some adverb of time

Ich treffe mich morgen mit meinem Bruder.

Because you have an adverb of time that is not now, it is understood that this is actually future, even though it is written as present tense

[vernal ermine]

I understand now

[plush pelican]

Okay, I need to go to bed now, man

[vernal ermine]

Vielen Dank ❤ @plush pelican

[vernal ermine]

Darf es sonst noch etwas sein?

Is this an expression without word by word meaning?

But you used there instead of it? Why?

[long whale]

Then, the answer is: yes.

[vernal ermine]

Your last post is good. Can you repost it.

That is very understandable.

[long whale]

Then, why did you start picking it apart? 🤕

[vernal ermine]

These doubts are silly that cannot be asked when I was in C level.

So what these expressions are called in German?

[long whale]

idiomatische Redewendungen I guess

[vernal ermine]

That is different.

[vernal ermine]

Where can I practice my pronounciation?

[long whale]

You can record yourself and post the recording in #pronunciation to get feedback.

[vernal ermine]

If it is app or website, it would be very good.

[vernal ermine]

It doesn't work for me.

[long whale]

It does if you use something like vocaroo to record yourself and then embed/copy-paste the file.

[west pond]

"viel" is an intensifier adverb here not an adjective. It's like saying "very good" "sehr gut"

sehr is an intensifier adverb just like viel

viel comes before uncountable nouns or it comes before comparison adjectives to intensify their meaning, or it comes before prepositional phrases or it comes at the end of the sentence to intensify the verb.

Ich habe viel Geld.
Here it came before an uncountable noun.

Ich habe viel Wasser getrunken.
Same thing like the last example.

Ich spiele viel Fußball.
Same thing

Ich bin viel netter als du.
Here it came before a comparison adjective to intensify it's meaning.

Ich spreche viel mit meinem Bruder.

Here it's intesifying a prepositional phrase that is tied to the verb, so the thing it's intensifying here is "mit meinem Bruder sprechen"

Ich muss viel auf meinen Bruder warten

Same thing intesifying a prepositional phrase tied to the verb, so here it's intesifying "auf meinen Bruder warten"

Ich esse jeden Tag viel.

Here it came at the end of the sentence to intesify the verb "essen"

The adjective is "viele" or "vielen* that only comes with plural nouns.

Ich habe viele Menschen geschlagen.

Here it is an adjective that only comes with plural nouns. In the Nominative and Akkusativ it's "viele"
In the dative it's "vielen"

Ich habe mit vielen Menschen gesprochen.

====

If anyone finds a mistake in that post you can gladly help

[keen silo]

Any english german speakers that can translate a 5 second segment from video for me please?

[long whale]

No mistakes, just a side note: of course, people say things like "Ich muss viel auf X warten" or "Ich spreche viel mit X", but I'd advise against using them in writing. They're kind of sloppy, aren't they, because it isn't clear what they mean. Do you frequently talk to your brother? Oft? Or do you mean you have long talks? Ausführlich? Or both? Oft und lange? 🌻

[long whale]

faq How to ask a question

[stoic mauve]

How to ask a question

If you want something corrected, you can put it in a Google Doc and share a link with permission level »can suggest« in #writing .

Don't ask us to translate something for you outright: that takes professional time and effort and we're not here for that. You can try your luck with deepl.com.
For single words, use dict.cc or another dictionary, it'll be quicker.

If you want to know if/how a word can be used, provide some context to help us understand the situation.

Don't ask us to do your homework or exams for you! Show us your best attempt at something and try to pinpoint what exactly you don't understand.

[keen silo]

I mean i just need to see if subtitles are correct not translate it

[west pond]

Thank youu

[keen silo]

@west pond do u support eren jaeger?

[west pond]

Nopeeeee

[keen silo]

Why not

As a fellow german i thought youd understand

[west pond]

He tries to be edgy soo hard and his plan makes 0% sense, just a psychopath, zeke is superior and his plan makes sense

[long whale]

Please note the question channels are specifically for questions about the German language (vocab, grammar, usage). 🌻

[west pond]

I am not German tho

[long whale]

Everything else is for #general

[keen silo]

Alright

[vernal ermine]

Vielen Dank ❤

Guys, can anybody suggest me a good pronounciation checking app?

[gaunt heart]

i was listening to some german songs and noticed that the verbs usually end in ‘ instead of being conjugated. Like “hab’” or “lieb’”. Is this because of slang or something? Or just to make the word shorter?

[long whale]

Dropping the final -e in 1st person singular is extremely common in speaking (and texting/chatting), but not in writing. 🌻

[gaunt heart]

oh ok thanks. in texting to people usually put the ‘ at the end?

[long whale]

No, no apostrophe in texting. 😄

[gaunt heart]

ok thank you

[plush pelican]

Use Forvo.com and listen to how they pronounce it, then mimic it

[glass hawk]

Piggybacking on the above—other good resources for pronunciation are Wiktionary-DE (most words have at least one sound clip), and dict.cc (most entries, phrases or words, have at least one soundclip).

[dusky compass]

Can anyone give me ideas on what I can write in German? Some small essays and stuff like that. It would be better if there was a website where you could see a model of an essay and some general vocabulary.

[plush pelican]

Do you mean in general, or do you mean you have a test coming up and want to practice specifically what to write for that?

[dusky compass]

I mean in general

[plush pelican]

I mean, in general, write about whatever you want!

Here are some topics to get you started: https://www.fluentu.com/blog/language-exchange-topics/

[dusky compass]

But is there a website where you can see some model essays?

[plush pelican]

Try to say what you would say in your native language, but in German

[plush pelican]

probably, have you tried googling for this?

[dusky compass]

Yeah, but I couldn't have a website that goes in depth into this.

[plush pelican]

Well, I don't know any 🤷‍♂️

[vernal ermine]

Vielen Dank❤

[vernal ermine]

Vielen Dank ❤

[vernal ermine]

Was ist dunkel dinner?

Any idea?

[whole portal]

It's like an entertainment restaurant thing where you eat in a completely dark environment

[fast fox]

Can anyone here join voice Channels?

[whole portal]

At least that is what I'd expect from that name, the typical word for it is Dunkelrestaurant

[vernal ermine]

Is it only available in night?

[whole portal]

Well Dinner implies you won't eat breakfast there, as typical for a restaurant it will be opened in the evening but the darkness is achieved by curtains and such, not nighttime (which isn't dark enough anyways)

[vernal ermine]

Mainly for which purpose, the dunkelrestaurant are used just only for party or for family gathering also?

[whole portal]

It's like an experience thing, you would probably go there with a partner or maybe your family, not necessarily that many people

[vernal ermine]

@whole portal Vielen Dank❤

[plush pelican]

Do the Germans regard it as sacrilege to eat "breakfast for dinner"?

[whole portal]

Hm?

[plush pelican]

Because in the US we have several restaurants that serve exclusively breakfast food

regardless of the time of day

so if that were in the US, it could still well be that you're eating a breakfast meal

just at night

[plush pelican]

You never heard of IHOP?

[whole portal]

Well I think there are multiple things at play here

Firstly, breakfast in Germany isn't usually a meal in the classic sense and will most commonly be more similar to a buffet

Like you're having Brötchen with some of the 10 different breakfast spreads in your kitchen, maybe scrambled eggs if you're feeling fancy

So I would argue "breakfast food" isn't really a thing here

[plush pelican]

https://tenor.com/view/general-zod-heresy-man-of-steel-superman-destroy-it-gif-25934938

[whole portal]

Secondly, I would argue that the kind of place you go to to have an experience or spend quality time with people you go to usually in the evening

When I said "you won't eat breakfast there" I really just meant "you won't be going there to eat something between 6 and 10"

Not that I would eat Schnitzel for breakfast

I don't eat much in the morning either way tbh but that's unrelated

[whole portal]

Only in the context of sucking someone off behind an IHOP dumpster in some skits

[plush pelican]

It's the International House of Pancakes. Their main entree is...pancakes

I think the only thing they sell that isn't a breakfast food is steak

[whole portal]

https://youtu.be/NOqrlyDkBZw

[whole portal]

Not so international now

But that name is hilarious

Yeah I think most people will know that hollywood movie breakfast (that is enough to feed like 20 people and the actors only ever touch maybe one pancake) but that's not really a thing here

(Plus the american variant of pancakes in my opinion doesn't come even close to the european variants)

[kind knoll]

You forgot about the syrup footjobs under the table

[plush pelican]

https://tenor.com/view/shocked-burn-parks-and-rec-chris-pratt-gif-2693723001935437012

The European variants? You mean the "thin burritos"?

You talking crepes, or what?

[whole portal]

Well I'm sure every country will tell you that Crêpes and Blinys and Eierkuchen and Palatschinken etc. are totally different

But they're a lot more similar to each other than the american one which is fairly thick in comparison

I went to canada and ate pancakes there but honestly I ended up drowning them in blueberry sauce to mask the fairly unexciting taste

Not very convinced by them

[plush pelican]

Wait, you're judging America for Canada's sins?

[whole portal]

I didn't say USA smh

[plush pelican]

"the american variant"

[whole portal]

But as far as I can tell they're the same concept

[plush pelican]

I mean, obviously if you go to another country expecting their food to fulfill exactly the same function as your food back home, you're going to find it lacking

[whole portal]

I would call that us-american

[plush pelican]

I don't go to Mexico and tell them that these burritos are shitty burgers

[whole portal]

No I didn't expect that

[plush pelican]

American-style pancakes are doing something different than crepes

[whole portal]

I don't think comparing them makes that much sense honestly

[whole portal]

Yeah I agree

[plush pelican]

Then why did you start off by comparing them and saying American ones are worse? 😛

[whole portal]

Because when I say pancake I will usually mean the European one which is different

It's more the lack of differentiating words that is the problem here

If I say egg cake I don't think most people outside of east germany will understand

[plush pelican]

"crepe"

[whole portal]

That is below my dignity

But I guess that's how you do it in the US, huh?

Never thought of that honestly

[plush pelican]

Do what? refer to stuff?

[whole portal]

No calling them Crêpes to differentiate

[plush pelican]

I mean, you gotta differentiate somehow

[whole portal]

In Germany we have it easy because we speak German so Pfannkuchen (or Eierkuchen) vs Pancake is easy

Idk how they do it in Britain

I don't know their take on Pancakes at all tbh

[plush pelican]

The wiki article says "English pancakes are similar to French crêpes and Italian crespelle. "

[whole portal]

I wasn't even aware of the Italian variant

[plush pelican]

Apparently crumpets are "a variation of the pancake"?

[vernal ermine]

Difference between zumachen und zuhaben? ?

[night dagger]

sie machen gleich zu, danach haben sie zu.

They are about to close and then they are closed.

[vernal ermine]

Not clearly understandable, do you have some other sentence?

[night dagger]

Think about it in the context of a restaurant closing for the day.

[vernal ermine]

2nd part is like future.

[night dagger]

They are closing
They are closed

[vernal ermine]

Vielen Dank❤ @night dagger

I understand now

[vernal ermine]

What is au pair?

[pure crescent]

Well, what does the dictionary tell you? 😁

[vernal ermine]

It is same au pair.

[pure crescent]

You can very easily look up what it means then, if it's the same word in your native languagr.

[vernal ermine]

English is not my native bro.

[long whale]

[vernal ermine]

I thought this word is used only in German.

[vernal ermine]

I didn't understand that.

I read like looking after children for language learning.

But Can we use die Hausfrau for that?

[brave harbor]

Au pair is not a Hausfrau but mainly responsible for the kids. There's no German word for it, everyone just says "au pair" all over the world

Also If you actually want more information on how to be an "au pair" send me a pm / search on #1033125270217048246

[vague rain]

Guten Tag! Ich habe eine Frage. Warum benutzt man "Studiums" stattdessen "Studien" in dieser Satz?
Während ihres Studiums hatten meine Cousinen Spass.

[glass hawk]

Das ist der Genitiv in Aktion. Es handelt sich nicht um den Plural, sondern um den Singular im Genitiv, der an die meisten männlichen/sächlichen Substantive ein -s anhängt. Die Präposition "während" löst in diesem Fall den Genitiv aus.

[vague rain]

ja das ist der Genetiv, aber warum ist es "während ihres Studiums" stattdessen "während ihrer Studien"?

i didnt completely understand your reply in German

[glass hawk]

No worries, will rewrite in English. I try to answer in German if someone asks in German. One sec 🙂

[vague rain]

yes, i appreciate that 🙂 but there were a few things i didnt yet catch... but that is my bad

[glass hawk]

It's the genitive in action. It's not the plural, but the genitive singular, which adds an -s to most masculine/neuter nouns. The preposition "während" triggers genitive in this instance.

Does that clear things up?

[vague rain]

well yes, that helps with singular genetiv but I don't quite understand why its not plural in this instance

it is two people studying so why isn't it "während ihrer Studien"?

[silver fjord]

Was ist der Unterschied zwischen lernen und zulernen?

[plain umbra]

Does zulernen exist? Can you show where you saw it?

[silver fjord]

I heard like hast du lust auf deutsch zulernen?

[glass hawk]

To be honest, I don't really know the idiom in that instance in German. It might just be more natural to refer to a single instance of study in German as singular. "Studien" in the plural might more refer to the process of studying over a long time. It's hard to say without more context.

[silver fjord]

What's is with zulernen is that an old german stuff?

@plain umbra

[glass hawk]

"zu lernen" as two separate words

If you heard it, I can all but guarantee that was the intent... if you saw otherwise, however, well... all bets are off 😛

[vague rain]

Thank you for your reply thats very interesting 🙂

[glass hawk]

And in terms of usage, "zu" + [verb] is used in a clause when the subject is not repeated.

[plain umbra]

Hmm, as Teddy said, it should be "zu lernen". Basically, the normal infinitive of a verb is just the verb by itself (lernen) but there is also a zu-infinitive (zu lernen). It's similar in English actually. For example, we typically write the infinitive of a verb like "to learn" but the bare infinitive is just "learn.

For example:
I can learn. (after "can", we use bare infinitive)
I try to learn. (after "try", we use to-infinitive)

German has something similar to that, although the details are slightly different.

[glass hawk]

E.g. Wir können morgen versuchen, ein Auto zu kaufen. @silver fjord
"We can try to buy a car tomorrow."
"zu" + [verb] lets you use a verb in a separate clause without a subject

[plain umbra]

I don't think that's quite right as a way to explain it.

I mean, that's not the purpose of it and you can do that without the zu-infinitive.

Like in your example sentence, the zu-infinitve is required because of versuchen, not because of anything to do with subjects.

[glass hawk]

Can you clarify? You're probably right, I'm rusty, but it's how I've always thought of it. Not that it's the only way to form further such clauses, but in this particular construction

[plain umbra]

It's the same reason as in English. Certain verbs trigger one type of infinitive, while others trigger the other. In German you typically learn it that modal verbs trigger bare infinitive, whereas most other verbs will trigger a zu-infinitive.

So for example:
Ich will Deutsch lernen. Ich kann Deutsch lernen. -> Modal verb triggers bare infinitive.
Ich versuche Deutsch zu lernen. -> Versuchen triggers zu-infinitive.

[long whale]

Look, "die Studie, die Studien" = studies, as in " experiments conducted by scientists under specific, controlled conditions", as in "According to a recent study...". While what you do at uni to get a degree is called "das Studium".

[vague rain]

Thats very interesting, ive so far always viewed zu the same way TeddyBearBonfire explained it.

Im gonna go study which verbs trigger zu when im home 🙂

[plain umbra]

Yeah, in German it's a bit easier than English I think, because in German the bare infinitive ones are modal verbs + some verbs of perception (sehen, hören) although you don't see that latter group much anyway.

In English it's a bit more random.

[vague rain]

Ah i see thank. So its two different words…

But whats the plural of das Studium?

[long whale]

Well, you're right inasmuch as you usually can't use an infinitive with "zu" when you have 2 different subjects. But otherwise - what Basementality said. 🌻

[vague rain]

I was able to figure it out in English so im sure ill be able to handle it in German 😁

[plain umbra]

Yeah and I think for other uses of zu-infinitive they are also pretty much similar to English so you can use that to help understand it.

[long whale]

Yeah, that would also be "die Studien", but it would be really rare, right? If you wanted to say someone's studying more than one subject at uni, you'd say "er studiert 2 verschiedene Fächer", or, if you're trying to point out X and Y are 2 different subjects/courses,"X und Y sind zwei verschiedene Studiengänge"

[plain umbra]

Like if you consider the one with Lust haben as an example, "Ich habe Lust, Deutsch zu lernen" is the same structure as "I have a desire to learn German".

[glass hawk]

I feel like our explanations aren't actually at odds, almost just approaching the same thing from different angles. The modal verbs aren't triggering another clause in this instance, whereas the others are (even if the lack of a comma in the simpler construction masks that a little, I believe it's still an infinitive clause... at least, so claims Hammer's Grammar & Usage)

Oops, badly snipped haha

[plain umbra]

I think the problem is that you're describing the features of a zu-clause but not how or why they are used.

Like yeah, it's a separate clause and you don't include the subject, but that doesn't tell a learner why it's there or when to use it.

[glass hawk]

Hmm, I'll be honest, that is how/why I use them. I don't think about the verb I'm using, I think about the structure I'm using. I can only really relate to how I myself learned to understand it. But certainly, that's the value of learning the same thing from multiple people/sources

[plain umbra]

If you want to feel like you're right on this, feel free.

[glass hawk]

Please don't misunderstand; I'm not trying to one-up you or something. I think it's just a matter of different perspectives and conceptualisations :S

[plain umbra]

I don't think you're trying to one-up me. I just think you are not understanding why what you're saying doesn't make sense.

If you really want to get into it, then let's look at these examples again.

Ich will Deutsch lernen. vs Ich versuche, Deutsch zu lernen.

Why does one use a bare infinitive and the other a zu-infinitive?

How do you apply your logic/explanation to explain this difference?

[silver fjord]

That's makes dam make sense

Thank you

[silver fjord]

[vague rain]

Yes i understand. Vielen Dank für deine Antwort.

[glass hawk]

Apologies, work got busy for a bit there

The way I think about it is that auxiliaries don't trigger a secondary clause, so the subject is still active in the same clause as the relevant verb, thus the verb can be used without "zu". In the latter case, a secondary clause is triggered and the verb requires a "zu" construction in the absence of a subject.

I guess the disconnect here is that I think about the clausal implications first if an auxiliary is or is not in question, whereas you think about the direct impact on the verb. But it essentially seems to arrive at the same destination for me

[glass hawk]

No worries at all 🙂

[plain umbra]

But you don't decide to use a zu-infinitive clause there because you want to make a new clause. You do it because the verb is versuchen as opposed to wollen.

[glass hawk]

Fair enough, it's all good

[plain umbra]

As a side note, auxiliary verbs are sein, haben and werden (when being used to make other forms like Perfekt or Passiv).

Here we're rather talking about modal verbs.

[long whale]

I don't want to nitpick, but thinking of modal verbs as "auxiliaries" is - or might become - a little problematic (apart from simply being the wrong term). 🌻

Oh snap.

[glass hawk]

Sorry, used shorthand for "modal auxiliary". I learnt that from Hammer, but I'm beginning to think Hammer might be flawed as I feel like I do get pushback for using its terminology at times

Although actually the auxiliary aspect as defined in the above is, come to think of it, precisely why the one-clause vs separate clauses thing is even an issue haha

[plain umbra]

Sure, that's fine. They're typically just grouped separately though.

[glass hawk]

Come to think of it, does German have any modal lexicals, now or historically? 🤔

I wonder how certain English modals became lexicals instead of auxiliaries... there's a good rabbithole for some of my downtime today at work 😛 Anyway, I digress

[plain umbra]

Not sure, but I had a quick look at how auxiliary and modal verbs are defined in English vs German and I think the Hammer's terminology is a matter of choosing the English conceptualisation over the German one. In English modal verbs are considered a subcategory of auxiliary verbs because of the specific way auxiliary verbs are defined in English. But in German grammar it's viewed a bit differently than that.

[glass hawk]

Makes sense. Grammar terminology is frustratingly (but understandably) inconsistent from language to language. I tend to stick with English for grammar terminology as a result of dabbling in a bunch of languages—helps keep things internally consistent.

[long whale]

Mind giving me an example?

[glass hawk]

"to want" for example, "willan" in Old English, functioned as a modal auxiliary then, but is a modal lexical now. "Will" (as in meaning "to want") is the auxiliary but is increasingly archaic in English

EDIT: And as I should've predicted, "want" comes from Old Norse, displacing the West-Germanic "will" over time.

[plain umbra]

It can be useful but the problem is that often the terminology is different because the languages are different. In which case the consistency isn't actually possible by just using the same terms.

[glass hawk]

I need to look up the actual etymology of "to want" and have a dive 🙂

[plain umbra]

But regardless of that, I think for learning contexts like here, sticking to the terms the learners use is more important than the exactness of different grammars.

[glass hawk]

Yup, hence "understandably", as much as the fist shakes at the gods on admitting it

I remember my struggles with Thai grammar terminology with particular fondness... not even a grammatically complex language, but the terminology inconsistencies threw me for a loop.

[long whale]

It is as I thought: "nicht brauchen" can be used as/considered to be a modal, just like "needn't", which explains why colloquially, "nicht brauchen" tends to be used without "zu", even though it's obviously also a full verb. "werden" can also be used as a modal verb (apart from being both a full verb and an auxiliary). Interestingly, "lassen" is not considered to be a modal verb anymore (according to wiktionary).

[glass hawk]

Great stuff, thank you for that answer! Was sort of wondering aloud more than expecting an answer but I'm glad I did so to get this 🙂

I think some of the complexity in this question comes from the fact that linguists often haven't entirely reached a consensus themselves (at least in English, there still seems to be some debate on that front!) on what constitutes one type or the other, and so the answer changes over time as the debate settles here or there...

[long whale]

In this context, I think it's also kind of interesting that if you asked a native German speaker who's unaware of the definition/implications of "modals", I'm pretty sure they'd tell you all of our modal verbs work perfectly well as lexical verbs... 😄

[vague rain]

Hallo nochmal. Kann mir jemand erklären, was der Unterschied zwischen 'nachdem' und 'nach' ist?

[long whale]

"nach" is a preposition, i.e. it requires a noun: nach dem Abendessen. "nachdem" is a subordinating conjunction: Wir sind ins Kino gegangen, nachdem wir zu Abend gegessen hatten.

[vague rain]

vielen Dank 👍

[glass hawk]

Damn haha, was nearly done with my answer. Can't beat Susana 😛

[vague rain]

😂 happy to receive two answer if you want to practice answering

[glass hawk]

It's all good haha, couldn't say it any better.

[long whale]

For completeness' sake, and because it appears in such an extremely common expression: "nach" can also work as a postposition - which is the same as a preposition, just that you can put it after (Latin "post" = after) the noun: "meiner Meinung nach" = in my opinion.

[vague rain]

that's interesting 😄

vielen Dank.

just so I get it right, 'bevor' and 'vor' is kind of the same thing?

[long whale]

(English has them, too, btw. "a few days ago" - TIL, as in: didn't know "ago" was considered to be a postposition. 😄)

[vague rain]

Forgive me all the questions 😅 I looked up "sich anstrengen" in a dictionary. In the sentence "du musst dich anstrengen nach den Ferien" is 'den Ferien' in akkusativ because of the verb, or did I understand it wrong?

[glass hawk]

Is accusative the only possibility? I think you would benefit from a second look at your definite articles 😉

[vague rain]

as far as i understood this, it would be the only possibility for what I'm trying to say

[glass hawk]

So we have to separate out the components in the sentence a little. The "Akk" in your image refers to what case "sich" must be in, quite apart from "nach den Ferien" in your sentence

[vague rain]

oh yes you're right. how do I figure out the other part of the sentence?

[glass hawk]

"nach den Ferien" is an adverbial phrase, and "nach" is a preposition which requires a certain case of its complement