ik-2

[dark silo]

rest in RIP

[dusk anvil]

ripbozo

[undone plinth]

Before you ask, no, the live-compatible IK beta is not going away. HOWEVER, because we're leaving it up, we need you to do us a favor. Please run through worlds and avatars on this Open Beta branch in particular. Really test it out! A lot of stuff changed other than IK 2.0 and it might cause problems. We want you to find them.

nvm this channel isn't dead (probably?)

imagine reading the patch notes before shitposting

[hot fulcrum]

last?

[oak pendant]

Yeah live compatible ik-beta will stay, because, well taking it away would just be mean... But please test out the open beta to make sure there are no big surprises with the next release

[tame pewter]

[hot fulcrum]

we shall

[timber grove]

Thanks Kung for all of the amazing hard work you have put into making VRChat's new IK literally 9000 times better than the legacy one. I love your commitment to making it as good as possible. We all appreciate it.

[final raven]

Bless you Kung for keeping this branch up for in-between testing open beta~ Appreciate the hard work you put out on this! Ready for everyone else to finally get to enjoy the benefits! ^^

[hot fulcrum]

huhh
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/11946-hmd-movement-causes-exaggerated-body-swings-when-lying-down

[oak pendant]

Yeah, that's expected behavior when a tracker disconnects or reconnects. In bd_'s case there were many tracker disconnects for some reason. This is an edge case for the 2sec while we wait for SteamVR to settle on new tracked device indices. In general it's something that should be rarely experienced. The previous behavior was to just let the tracker jump to the wrong index (so you'd see your hip become your foot for 2sec

)

[gleaming spire]

im a little confused on how to enable elbow tracking, 8 point tracking btw, when i calibrate it shows that the elbows are showing up but wont calibrate to the avi

[oak pendant]

Make sure you stand in a Tpose. Also if you don't use your actual user real height it may cause issues during calibration

[gleaming spire]

still nothing

[oak pendant]

If you'd like you could send in a log and I could take a look

[gleaming spire]

kk

[devout current]

Where there any changes for the IK 2.0 between the latest IK-Beta and the Open-Beta version Kung?

[final raven]

Probably still the same for the most part. Also curious how this branch will be handled with open beta. Assuming any ik changes will have parity between the two.

[devout current]

Since IK 2.0 is compatible with live, it wont be with the Open Beta

[devout current]

Should we now use the Open Beta canny for for bugs / feedback related to the new IK? Or should we still use IK 2.0 for that and only use the Open Beta canny for all of the other changes in the Open Beta?

[robust tangle]

if you find a bug that only exists on the open beta branch, you should put report it on the open beta canny.

If it exists on both, put it on IK beta

[devout current]

makes sense

[robust tangle]

Include the earliest build number that has the bug

[oak pendant]

Thanks Adeon, I should have clarified this when open beta started, but this is exactly right 💯

[oak pendant]

No changes to the IK2.0 parts of the next release patch between IK-Beta and Open Beta. As Salbug guessed, any changes to IK2.0 during the open beta process will be ported across to IK-Beta as well. This will help us isolate issues that arise from the other features coming in the next release or if IK2.0 is what's causing issues that may arise.

[devout current]

Ah okay, thanks for the info ^^

[devout current]

For some reason the arm goes out further out then the controller and then comes back when putting your hands up, any idea why this happens?
https://streamable.com/lcv5pj

Also, it seems like the chest snaps in from the wrong side:
https://streamable.com/chbl49

[steel ocean]

I'm still getting an issue where trackers only will freeze for 2-3s (resulting in them locking to headset briefly) and then shift back. Off beta seems to be fine.

[final raven]

#ik-2 message

[steel ocean]

unfortunately, they arent occluding or disconnecting, if I'm in my steam menu, and watch the trackers, when locking in vrc, they are still being tracked in steam. This happens just standing in the middle of playspace.

its once every minute or two

[devout current]

The toggle to switch back to the legacy IK does not work in 3 point tracking if you disable FBT via the menu.

Update: It appears to happen in general that it does not work, not just when I turn FBT off via the Menu, also just when starting in 3 point.

[grand lynx]

all lock when head gets too close to chest tracker if you have neckfix

it doesnt happen locally

only for others

[tranquil cipher]

what exactly is "neckfix"?

[grand lynx]

old weight painting method so rotation isnt at where head meets neck but closer to where neck meets chest, fixed issues with view points and looked a bit more natural when dancing

[tranquil cipher]

if it's just weight painting then that should be irrelevant for this particular issue, but if it's actually moving the neck bone to somewhere it shouldn't be then that's probably not recommended

[grand lynx]

lots of older avatars use it so i thought id throw it up. they fixed shoulder issues that occured with neck fix in the past, always worth mentioning things

[tranquil cipher]

yeah, if it was "this bone bends slightly weird when I completely break my armature" then that's ehhh hard to justify. But what you're looking at here is a severe issue caused by a minor tweak so it's probably still a valid report

[still grotto]

afaik the neck fix was to remove all of the weight painting on the neck and apply it to the head and chest instead

and then to make the neck extremely small

I think it's safe to say that avatars with that setup are going to have issues

[grand lynx]

yeee figured

[serene ermine]

@oak pendant Can we get an update to the official documentation with new recommendations on how to rig for full body?
https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/full-body-tracking
Existing documentation could use an update for when IK2 becomes live

[gleaming spire]

the k test build is now broken with my setup again, also ik beta live and ik beta 2.0 no like quest controllers as elbow trackers

[tidal rampart]

Yeah the ik beta broke, cant even load into the game, and if i manage to it insta crashes the second i try and calibrate m fbt

[final raven]

strange, i'm on rn

[acoustic python]

Has any of the devs ever addressed this topic or commented on future plans with this?
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/stop-locking-avatars-in-place-when-players-walk-through-walls

It's the 7th most upvoted post in IK 2.0 category and i think a lot of people would really wish for this

[golden sigil]

@oak pendant it worked thank you my full body works good the problem i have now is other pepole might have the same problem if this swings over into realise as there are pepole my size playing vrchat in fullbody

but it was a quick fix

[grand ether]

I think maybe it should work by pushing ur playspace back so your not able to pass threw walls at all. and there will be no avatar freezing because u cant go threw the wall.

it would be great because people cant cheat games by looking inside a wall

[prisma meadow]

the vast majority of time the freezing is just annoying.

it literally only matters in game, and even then those are a minority

you can still look through walls. your character just freezes

[fiery star]

anyone understand IK well enough to know what's wrong with my rig? it bends fine in the muscle editor and blender, but the IK isn't too friendly with it. the upper legs are stuck in a way that they always rotate with the hip and can't rotate themselves

EDIT: Ended up being a physbones thing. don't put physbones on direct human armature bones... i forgot lol

[devout current]

but you can't just grab stuff from another room

[marsh elm]

then disable grabbing or something, freezing because you clipped some random geometry is stupid

[vast tangle]

Yea I find it pretty annoying trying to figure out if my SteamVR tracking just crapped itself or if my head is ever so slightly touching a collider that just happens to be in the way

[shrewd vector]

brb going to clip a random vertex that’s sticking out of a mesh

[marsh elm]

avatar creator's way of saying they'll trim their nails

[devout current]

lmao

[zenith olive]

Hey so I’m on the ik beta that is compatible with live build, I didn’t change anything but now when i calibrate as I normally would only my hip moves

Before it worked fine

Like the tracker balls show up during calibration but once I calibrate only the hip moves

[tidal rampart]

While using the beta my game insta crashes the second i open it, any ideas on why|?
Ive tried reinstalling, deleting evry folder associated with vrchat, and it still wont work
Game just immideatlely crashes uppon startup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxmEBK9ihr4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_bvyAOg3Ls

This is what happens every single time i try and start the game

[marsh elm]

private video

[tidal rampart]

Oops mb

[tidal rampart]

Try them again

[empty solar]

is it possible that locomotion layers can cause some IK bugs

[zenith glacier]

probably, thats why during testing it might be beneficial in the case of suspecting the locomotion layer to use the vrchat standard one

[inland nebula]

Hey Y'All, wanted to play around with a MIDI controller but it seems i always get "Failed to open MIDI input device HostError", anyone else is having the same problem?
P.S. Dunno if it is related but i am on IK-Beta, i have added launch option like it is in the Docs, Did try various combinations of the "--midi=" parameter, also did try a virtual midi device as a pipe-through of the IRL controller to a different name...

[rancid glen]

found this in the latest update, otherwise seems to be an improvement (for desktop at least)
https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/11949-tracking-takes-very-long-to-set-in-when-using-vr

[limpid vessel]

E

[proud zodiac]

Hey, I recently switch to the beta, but now everything is too low

I can't reach my avatar menu for example

[vital inlet]

This is the knee issue I was talking about earlier @oak pendant, seems to still be in this beta, let me know if you want my avatar's id (although it is private)

Top is Beta

Bottom is Legacy

I am in 6pt tracking also

[devout current]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/putting-your-arms-up-is-a-bit-weird

[devout current]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/3p-walking-sideways-and-then-coming-to-a-stop-looks-weird

[devout current]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/3p-in-legacy-mode-the-arm-cliping-prevention-is-the-same-as-from-ik-20

[whole glacier]

I'm not sure if it's beta specific but.
Is it just me or do avatars always calibrate slightly to the left for anyone else?

[marsh elm]

Is this what the kids call the lean these days? 😄

[whole glacier]

the lean?

[whole glacier]

I mean like the entire avatar looks like it's shifted left.

[devout current]

I have not noticed that

can you seen a screenshot or video?

[solar cloud]

Uninstall mods

[devout current]

And also

[barren creek]

Modification of the VRChat application

There are NO "modifications" of the VRChat client that are considered safe or allowed, no exceptions.

Any application that interacts or modifies the VRChat application is a violation of the Terms of Service, and using it will result in your account being banned.

[vital inlet]

Like the bend is more to the left

If you had that, then look at mine lmao, my entire knee just goes straight to the left

[robust tangle]

If we are just living in IK-beta and uploading avatars for it, should we still be on the current live SDK or was there an SDK specifically for IK-beta on live?

[rustic berry]

there isn't a new SDK for the IK beta

[robust tangle]

Thanks!

[vital inlet]

There is the SDK for the open-beta

but due to the Avatar Param bit raise, it is not fallback to live supported

[marsh elm]

Bit raise? Ooh, how much is it?

[vestal oriole]

128 > 256

[ionic heron]

^ #open-beta-announcements c:

[vital inlet]

I never used past 40 ish

so it isn't amusing to me, but with the new senders and recievers, I might find a use for so much

[rustic berry]

with puppets and face tracking, you will hit that 128 easily lol

[vital inlet]

Oh yeah OSC

Lol

[rustic berry]

couldn't even do eye tracking even if I wanted to without removing literally all other avatar functionality

[vital inlet]

I would imagine you could pull it off with 2 floats

Unless you tryin to cross eye, then four

[rustic berry]

you need:

• EyeX_L
• EyeX_R
• EyesY
  for gaze, then you also probably want eyelids

you need eye closed, eye expand, and eyes squeeze

for optimization sake, you can pack all 3 into a single float by using different ranges of it

for example, eye squeeze could be -1 to 0, eyes closed could be 0 to 0.8, and expand could be 0.8 to 1

[vital inlet]

Me, an avid state machines programmer, I can do that in 4 floats and an int

[rustic berry]

but you still need that per eye lol

[vital inlet]

For both

[rustic berry]

so in total it'd be 5 floats

so 40 bits

you can be a bit more efficient by reducing the precision of the eyeexpandedsqueeze params using Binary parameters

basically using a limited amount of bools that then get converted back to a float in the animator

or you can skip the converting back to float part and instead do the smoothing via animation transitions

[vital inlet]

I am a personal hater of facial tracking in this point however

the network timing makes it REALLY annoying to watch

Eye I am chill with

[rustic berry]

I have a special setup where I stack visemes on top of face tracking to make it more responsive

[vital inlet]

I remember one of my friends sending me a video of someone eating in VRChat with that facial tracking, and I was just, grossed out

[rustic berry]

the visemes system is custom, and the overall weight of the visemes is dependant on the face tracking

to avoid overdriving stuff

[vital inlet]

Statuses would be better than pure location tracking

[rustic berry]

?

[vital inlet]

What makes anime appealing is how fast the character moves in frame by frame expressions

With the slowdowns that the human body has when communicating, it just doesn't look great whatsoever

On an anime rig

[rustic berry]

I use a bunny avatar though, so it's a lot different lol

you'd just need to see it in game

[vital inlet]

That is why we dont use jaw flaps for talking, it flashes to the sketched version of that syllable. allows for more confinement to the art of that character.

[rustic berry]

if I'm talking, it'll basically look like normal visemes, but with the extra expressivity and emotion that face tracking provides

[vital inlet]

If I were to make mine, most def would go to closest neighbor of the face I am creating irl, and have a more strict wait time.

Mocking the frames of animation,

So I would most def be able to prerender most faces, rather than doing blending

meaning less bits

but that is me

[robust tangle]

Mathematically incorrect expression 😏

[marsh elm]

I will mathematically correct your expression

Get ready

[vital inlet]

🍿

[prisma meadow]

if you have face tracking setup well it looks really good. you just gotta make sure you dont overdrive things

[marsh elm]

📐 ✏️ 📏

[vital inlet]

i can finally do sexy poses with ik 2.0!!

except im on a kinect!! D:

At least your knees bend normally TwT

[vital inlet]

Sometimes

its my elbows that do the funny twist

[vital inlet]

@vital inlet

I am legit just raising my foot

yipee

welcome too janky kinect tracking 101

[dusk anvil]

[vast tangle]

Poggers

[vast tangle]

Does this include modifications which aid in accessibility? I’ve heard of clients which allow better experiences for people who suffer from epilepsy for example by limiting how shaders can be displayed without hiding avatars. Or one user I saw who was using full body despite missing a leg via a modified client (before ik beta allowed using only one foot tracker)

I take no sides in any topics relating to the aforementioned subject

[ionic heron]

Modifications are banned, full stop

[marsh elm]

[loud patio]

Appauled

Or very interested?

[vital inlet]

I am using 3.0s

[final raven]

any and all modifications are banned. No exceptions are made.

[vital inlet]

i think a mix

[vital inlet]

oh?

[visual jolt]

Does anyone know how to use Final IK with IK 2.0?
Specifically, I want to offset the head position while maintaining tracking, but the head tracking is inevitably maintained.
With legacy IK I could add VRIK and FBBIK to the avatar route and then Disable in animator to turn off the default tracking, but it doesn't seem to work with IK 2.0.

[rustic berry]

for anyone that uses XSOverlay and also uses more than 3 trackers, consider commenting on this/reacting to give it some more attention https://github.com/Xiexe/XSOverlay-Issue-Tracker/issues/214

[bright tartan]

Anyone have issues kneeling down with the IK beta? I seem to really have to work to not have my legs bow out really far compared to legacy IK

[lethal light]

What lock mode do you have it on? I assume that some of the modes will play better with kneeling than others, although kneeling is hard to get proportioned right. I also thought (might have been fixed) that the new IK tended to spread the knees further apart (without knee trackers)

[final raven]

Lmao, wasn't it always the case before where you would be frozen in place when attempting to walk through a collider in 6pt? Just noticed the behaviour is slightly different in the ik-beta.
https://streamable.com/h8gzo8

[lethal light]

I really hope the freezing gets fixed before the new IK hits live

[bright tartan]

it tended to be with hip lock and both lock; hip is more consistent in general for dancing to me but it seems to have issues getting low. Both Lock is when im just relaxing.

And yea I preferred the last beta for kneeling since it was a lot easer to control myself with 6 point tracking (my trackers are bolted to my shoes, not on my ankles so having my feet rotated right to prevent issues is a problem atm. even my powerslides don't look as clean)

[lethal light]

sounds about right, hip lock (and both) forces the hip and legs to be perfect, which for kneeling, shows pretty much any flaw in leg proportions. Do you make your avatars? If so, how far inside the head do you put the view ball?

[bright tartan]

I don't make my own, but I modify mine quiet heavily. the only thing I havent done is reproportion it to my body.
But as far as the view ball I do tend to hover it a little in front of the nose, allowing me to see easier over my chest for redoing my calibration and such

[lethal light]

ahh, if you havent proportioned it, that is going to be your largest issue. Would definitely recommend popping it into blender and trying that sometime

[bright tartan]

proportional editing tends to hate me a ton in blender...

[lethal light]

also, for the view ball, I am finding that if you place it closer to the head bone/back hierarchy, it places you better in the avatar for proportions

[bright tartan]

yea and then i cant recal without a mirror or camera, which both might be out of the way during an event.

Mirror would be in a dancer room, and cameras are more or less prohibited unless your a photographer for that venue

but the kneeling issue was a consistent problem i had no matter proportions cause the IK is someone good at translating it

[lethal light]

I have yet to figure out kneeling. Tis one of the hardest positions to perfect it seems

[vital inlet]

ok theres a weird issue where it causes your entire spine too twitst backwards even if ur calibration is pefect

[devout current]

I wouldn't say that's any better though xD

[final raven]

I know lol, just pointing it out.

[devout current]

Btw I like how you are patting the table xD

Have you made a canny for that yet?

[devout current]

I mean we got half of what we wanted I suppose 😅

[final raven]

https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/stop-locking-avatars-in-place-when-players-walk-through-walls

[devout current]

Is there a a Tag on the canny for doing half of what was asked for? 😅

[limpid vessel]

E

[lethal bridge]

Anyone else notice you can't really use the chest tracker to "hunch" and instead the IK likes to keep your back straight and bend your neck forward instead?

[digital grove]

what

are you using lock neck

also do you also have elbow trackers

cause it feels like you probably need both elbows and chest for something like that

[lethal bridge]

11 point and lock all

[digital grove]

have you tried different lock combinations

[lethal bridge]

of course. obviously the other lock options do even less

right now it seems the IK allows the chest to bend outwards but not inwards. basically, you can puff your chest, but you can't curl up

the chest seems to just lock to the spine at about the "straight" angle

[digital grove]

maybe it's time to report it on the canny then

[lethal bridge]

and then proceeds to ignore the chest tracker's rotation but not the position

yeah, just wondering if anyone else noticed this

[lethal light]

I believe it was letting me hunch properly, but I can do some more checking tonight

[digital grove]

if it did, then it could be a thing with a specific avatar

[vast tangle]

I would think your avatar needs an upper chest bone for 11 point tracking, do you not?

[marsh elm]

need? not really, no

helps sure, but it works fine without one

[grand lynx]

So, reverted pre neck fix so i dont have spinny head. And now im pigeon necked. its not just my models but all of them. This is 11 point with all lock. Does not happen with hip lock.

works fine with neck fix locally, but others see my head spinning

[vast tangle]

Same, like if I were to slightly lean back into a couch my everything would freeze in place

Honestly there should be an option to switch between having your avatars hitbox dependent on head or hip, because often hip would be more accurate to where you really are

except for when my hip tracker goes flying into space

[lethal light]

I seem to back into some wall or other object daily
And I believe there is a cany asking for the hitbox to be parented to the hip instead of the head

[lethal light]

ohh no

[vast tangle]

When you go up to 7 trackers you are bound to have some interference issues

[grand lynx]

looool

[vast tangle]

Tracking loss moment

I honestly wish the trackers would prefer locking in place over flying away when they get lost

[vast tangle]

Unless the issue is that they don’t know they’re lost

The tracker knows where it is because it knows where it isn’t

[lethal light]

They fly away because they lose the lighthouse reference and go off of the imu's. It would probably be up to steam to implement a filter of some sort to use while the devices cannot see the lighthouses, unless wait.... Aren't the coordinates calculated on the trackers? Maybe the filtering would have to be done there

[grand lynx]

would like neck to not do this lol

[vast tangle]

If they were going off of the IMU it still wouldn’t cause the tracker to fly away. Most of the positioning is from the IMU, the basestations are to correct slight drift over time.

IMUs themselves are pretty accurate most of the time, but they will drift in their coordinate space over enough time. Like moving 1 foot forward being maybe slightly more or less than exactly a foot each time

[lethal light]

hmm? I thought the rotation and most of the quick movments was done on the imu's, but the lighthouses grounded the position in reality 60-100 times per second so they wouldn't drift, although I am not an expert on the systems

[vast tangle]

The lighthouses correct the one foot not being precisely a foot

[grand lynx]

one last example, does this when dancing

[lethal light]

nonetheless, I believe that the most kung could do is disable any trackers that are significantly away from the others as the rest of it is calculated earlier in the chain of programs

[vast tangle]

If the tracker isn’t moving, the IMU is useless, at which point the basestations can progressively narrow down its exact position to millimeters accuracy

[robust tangle]

I wonder how accurate index tracking would be if it didn't rely on IMUs at all

[vast tangle]

Not very

Fast moments are hell for laser tracking

Laser tracking is excellent at finding the exact position of a stationary object

IMU tracking is excellent at moving objects

[robust tangle]

I honestly miss external camera tracking

[vast tangle]

An IMU can’t tell anything about where it is in space, only how it has moved. Laser tracking is the opposite

[lethal bridge]

are you only moving your head forward or are you also pulling your chest back?

[lethal bridge]

that still uses IMUs 🙃

[vast tangle]

^

IMUs, lots of cameras, and lots of AI

There’s a reason mobile vr only ever allowed 3dof even though most phones of the era had 6dof IMU chips

Because IMU is still shit at being precise

[lethal bridge]

technically, there are a few options for a tracked device's pose result, i.e. "Fallback_RotationOnly" and "Running_OutOfRange", though not sure exactly when these pose results are set

[vast tangle]

It’s like when you accidentally move a basestation. The entire world gets fucked up, all of your trackers are in the wrong place, but they can still tell where they’re moving

That’s the IMU at work

Without an IMU if the basestations got moved they would be detecting phantom motion as the relative positions between the basestations is never what the tracker expects it to be

[robust tangle]

Ah, I thought the base stations look at consistent inaccuracies to determine their offset from an average

[vast tangle]

They compliment each other. The basestations tell the tracker where it is, while the IMUs tell the tracker where it’s going

[robust tangle]

yeah, but a base station can also figure out it's own offset from another base station if every tracked object in the scene on average has the exact same offset while stationary

[vast tangle]

More accurately the basestations help the tracker find where it is. The basestations don’t transmit any data

Other than to sync with other basestations

[robust tangle]

Yes but SteamVR itself should be able to update the releative offsets of the base stations from each other. in fact, it does it during initial setup

[vast tangle]

Exactly

[robust tangle]

it should be entirley aware if it changes later

because two base stations will report everything in different locations, but consistent offsets

[vast tangle]

It doesn’t do that continuously, and it can’t. The entire setup process is to tell SteamVR where the basestations are in respect to the room via the controllers location as seen by the basestations

[still grotto]

The tracker knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference (or deviation)

[vast tangle]

💀

[robust tangle]

I knew that was coming XD

[vast tangle]

During the setup process the controller is going “so theres this lighthouse over there, and another over here, and when I go over here they go over there and there. Ok you’re telling me that when the basestations are there and there that I’m in the center of the room, and when they’re over there that means I’m on the floor. And now when they’re there that means I’m at a wall. Ok I know where I am now. Here’s the room”

[grand lynx]

just lowering head

[vast tangle]

Are you “pecking”?

[grand lynx]

its pretty annoying when dancing

[lethal bridge]

so isn't that the right behavior? What should it be doing?

[grand lynx]

im a pigeon apparently

will show comparison

weird then normal

[vast tangle]

Neck compression :)

[grand lynx]

?

[vast tangle]

It makes the neck look like a spring in the weird example

That’s my take on it. It looks like the neck is compressing

[grand lynx]

yeah, thats how all avatars are right now unless you use that old neck fix style of wright painting

with neckfix, all is fine locally, but others see this if head gets to close to chest

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/946881839400882196/974796246835404860/2022-05-14_00-05-49_Trim.mp4

do we need to be painting our necks differently?

[lethal light]

Do you have an upperchest bone?

[lethal bridge]

that's just how using lock all works with disproportionate avatar and the standard spine chain

it's made worse with the fact that the chest bone is very limited in how much it can bend forward

forcing the neck to compensate for everything

it's a bit better with an upperchest bone as the IK has more segments to work with but still, since they can't bend forward once the spine/chest/upperchest chain locks, the only possible bend point becomes the neck

forcing it to bend forward extremely

[grand lynx]

it does this regardless of proportions, tested different avatars, it happens on all so far from various creators and types

most avatars dont have and upper chest bone, and didnt kung say they help some but make only a small difference?

[lethal bridge]

depending on the avatar the difference may or may not be more noticable

this is what Kung said: #ik-2 message

[grand lynx]

thank you

just not thrilled to do spinal surgery on 11 avatars

[lethal light]

I just tested on my avatar (with upperchest) and while there was a little bit of crunching at some angles, nothing like what you were experiencing

[grand lynx]

uggggh, dont want add another bone and paint for it

maybe i could lift the neck bone up a bit so it doesnt flip on my neck fix avatars when its pushed too close to the chest

because locally its fine on those

[digital grove]

it does makes sense that you'd need an upper chest bone for moving the chest

[mellow lichen]

Neckfix is outdated before 3.0 came out, but when 3.0 came, it broke them like this.
So you either need to remake the weight paint of the neck, or use older version that didn't have the neckfix and refit the outfits and all that you worked on.
You can also resize the neck a bit, that might help though not guaranteed fix.

[grand lynx]

Correct, neck breaking and looking like a pigeon is without neck fix. Head spinning is with neck fix. The problem is All Lock works perfectly with my old neck fix avatars without an upper chest bone, locally anyway. But others see the head flipping around like crazy if the head moves down towards the chest too far. Most avatars don't have an upper chest bone, so I was looking into alternatives.

[digital grove]

Time to normalize having an upper chest bone

[grand lynx]

Might be difficult to do as it primarily benefits people using chest trackers and all lock and has a small effect on everything else.

Sorry my typing skills while in vr can be rough lol

[digital grove]

time to make upper chest bone mandatory

[zenith glacier]

i wouldnt make it mandatory tbh, its a nice to have but if i compare my two models (same base, one with and the other without upper chest), the advantages of having one in fbt with hip lock is not alot. (with hip&head lock its more, no questions asked) And updating already uploaded avatars with an upper chest bone and reweightpaint chest clothing is not a five minute thing

[digital grove]

45 minute thiing

[zenith glacier]

if you say so

[lethal bridge]

ironically, disabling the chest tracker will allow for hunching 🙃

[marsh elm]

lolnope

we don't have mandatory 5 fingers for index folk and the upper chest is just as optional

[lethal bridge]

what should happen is more attention to the idea that you can have an upper chest bone, as since av3.0 it won't break your avatar and as of IK2.0 it could benefit those with chest trackers

[marsh elm]

yeah, i had to dig pretty deep in google/discord results to make sure whether upper bone = good/bad a couple of months ago when i started making avis

some people still share old information so everyone says something different when you're trying to figure it out :|

[vital inlet]

Is the open beta the one that allows for more than 15 steamvr input devices?

[digital grove]

What

[digital grove]

What'cha talkin'bout willis

[carmine gate]

All changes of IK 2.0 Beta are present in the current Open Beta.

IK 2.0 supports up to 11 tracked points. It will register all existing tracked devices active in SteamVR, but ignore all those outside the calibration range configurable via launch options.

SteamVR itself supports up to 64 tracked devices at once.

[past spruce]

Legacy SteamVR input system allows for max 15 devices.

So with headset, 2 controllers, 8 trackers and 4 base stations you are already going go hit that limit in VRC, which still uses legacy input system.

[digital grove]

The base stations count as an input device?

[hot fulcrum]

it shouldn't

[devout current]

Yeah it shouldn't, you can connect up to 16 so it would be weird of they would count as well

[vast tangle]

Meanwhile me and my 7 trackers with one of them always flying across the room and a controller vanishing

I’m using a powered hub for the trackers, and I don’t think interference would cause windows to detect a device disconnect

Although the issue has gotten much less prominent since switching to a powered hub

[vital inlet]

@digital grove yeah bastions controllers and trackers , eg everything the shows up in steam vr legacy input only allows 15 devices , heard rumors' that the open beta has support for more than 15.

[digital grove]

where did you hear this rumours

because they sound fake

[vital inlet]

no comment , see

卂丂口レ尺工乂 comment probs not fake tho 4 base stations and trackers hope we get off on legacy imput

[digital grove]

so you made it up?

it does sound very much made up

as vrchat hasn't said anything like that and I don't see how it could even work

ah nevermind there's the track your cat thing etc

lol

so yeah I do see how you could use many devices

but if you made it up well...

[vital inlet]

Dude math 11 trackers , headset , controllers and 4 base stations.

oh well

idk anymore

[dusk anvil]

base stations aren't input they just sweep your room all day with lasers and your stuff sees the lasers

[devout current]

Btw what is Kung currently working on? I haven't seem him active in here for around a week by now.

[vital inlet]

Would be nice tho , for Ik when We look down legs no bend like irl.

[devout current]

If you have your Avatar set up correctly then you won't have that

Your view point is either to far inside your head, or to far outside of your head

[timber grove]

Maybe he's taking a break idk. Pounding out all these updates is difficult.

[vast tangle]

Basestations don’t count as devices. The only time they even transmit data is either to other basestations to sync up or to the computer to turn on/off with auto power or to update their firmware

Other than that, they’re just fancy lights

In fact 1.0 basestations can only connect to the pc via a wired usb connection, in which you have to take down the basestation and plug it into the pc to update it

[timber grove]

No-one can use 11 trackers in VRChat. It's 8 trackers, 2 controllers, 1 HMD.

[vast tangle]

8 trackers is max where did you get 11 from

[harsh lagoon]

they mean 11 point tracking

which includes the controllers and headset as they are points of tracking

[timber grove]

mhm that is what I assumed.

[oak pendant]

Been working on some stuff behind the scenes working towards actual release, and also keeping an eye on issues while trying to keep things settled in order to not introduce any heavy changes soon before release.

[devout current]

Yay Update :p

[oak pendant]

That said, here. Have a little patch! 😉

[devout current]

And thanks for the info ^^

[oak pendant]

But yeah, leading into release I've tried to slow down the frenzied pace a bit so that whatever hits release is something that's settled for a bit before going out

[dusk anvil]

shoulmdr trakimg

[timber grove]

Poggers, brand new build

[teal halo]

always nice to see shoulders still getting better, that was my favorite thing when ik beta launched

[oak pendant]

I'm thinking there will still be post-release patches with improvements ofc

[timber grove]

Works with live right? Just want to double confirm.

[oak pendant]

Yeah, ik beta is still live compatible

[devout current]

that's probably the shortest changelog I've seen 😅

[oak pendant]

Also this change isn't merged in to open beta yet. Those of you with shoulder/arm trackers can jump between the builds to compare

let me know if it's worse somehow

[dusk anvil]

two types of people when open beta

[tame pewter]

[gloomy moon]

how long is this update gonna take, it's been like 6 months, hell physbones came out before

[oak pendant]

Yep trying to keep it settled. This was a change I wanted to get in before release though

[dusk anvil]

shoulmdr trakimg

[timber grove]

I haven't ever heard of shoulmdr trakimg

[teal halo]

ik fixes are wrestle back and forth to ensure it will work well for as many as possible, things take time

[devout current]

Ah, makes sense ^^

[timber grove]

coolio

[gloomy moon]

Physbones broke half of all avatars lmao

[rustic berry]

yoo?

[harsh lagoon]

i like patches they make me the big happy

[devout current]

I suppose a release is close then :p

[oak pendant]

"shoulmdr trakimg" should improve especially on avatars with shoulders much lower down than your IRL shoulders

for example, the default row alien avatar

[timber grove]

I like that alien.

[dusk anvil]

thanks donkey kung from donkey kong the hit nintendo video game series

[harsh lagoon]

omg

[dusk anvil]

(i've wanted to make this joke for literally forever)

[oak pendant]

Basically if the avatar's shoulder height didn't line up with yours, shoulder tracking would work poorly before, now it should be much better

[rustic berry]

really looking forward to testing that out

[acoustic snow]

i assume this shoulder change also helps out 3pt tracking users like the other stuff in IK2.0?

[oak pendant]

I should probably add that if you don't use your actual height for your User Real Height, you may have issues with the improved shoulders. If you need to mess with scale you should be using the Avatar Measurement toggle or the --custom-arm-ratio="0.4537" launch option.

[oak pendant]

This is a change for tracked shoulder behavior, so you'd need to be at least 5pt (using trackers on the upper arms)

per-tracker IK lets you use tracked shoulders without having lower body tracking though

[acoustic snow]

gotcha

[harsh lagoon]

i really gotta measure myself, cus i keep saying i'm 5'8 but according to my 5'8 friend i am not in fact 5'8 XD

[final raven]

while trying to keep things settled in order to not introduce any heavy changes soon before release.
Ah okay, was wonder what the roadmap would look like up to release. Keeping anymore bigger changes until post-release~

[quasi sable]

anyone check the shoulder tracking? I kinda wanna go in and see if that issue I had was fixed

[vital inlet]

@timber grove 11point tracking...... dum moment

my bad

mixed 8 takers and 11point,

trackers

[timber grove]

Eh don’t worry about it. No big deal

[waxen timber]

Anyone I can pay to help me fix my avatar spine neck compression issue? I wanted 9 point to work so bad but it’s unusable for me. DM.

[vast tangle]

9 point?

[waxen timber]

Or is it all in flux and I should wait if it’s not something I can do myself?

9 point tracking. When I lock, I get scoliosis

[vast tangle]

What are the 9 points

[waxen timber]

Elbow, chest, hands, feet, head, hip.

[vast tangle]

What locking are you using

Lock hips is the only one that doesn’t make my neck go weird for me

[waxen timber]

I wanted the tracking so it would track my rib cage movement better, I only see that working with the full lock. But that one makes my avi wonky. The head and hip lock work but it’s nit really any different than just having the elbow trackers on, shoulders work better and that’s cool but I want to use the full lock.

Yeah, lock hip you might as well not have chest tracking. It kinda works better without it.

I think I need the spine scaled. But I have never touched bones or blender, only Unity basics.

[vast tangle]

I wonder if chest tracking needs an upper chest bone

[oak pendant]

I think waiting is probably the best in this case. If you want something right now you can try tightening the spine by looking down slightly while you bind in. Binding in a tightened state will shift the burden of keeping both head and hip locked in to a slight drift at the feet instead.

To better improve the lock-all behavior would require network-incompatible changes. I'd like to get to that eventually. But for now lock-all is provided mostly because people wanted a way to force everything to lock in simultaneously.

[waxen timber]

Tbh, as an end user who doesn’t follow the dev channels, the idea of locking this or that is … well, I still don’t really get what it means or why you would want to use one type or the other.

But I can see what I want almost working in full lock.

Thing is, every avi tried did this though admittedly some seemed less bad. Do I need an irl chiropractor instead?

[oak pendant]

(assuming you don't use the legacy calibration launch option) try looking down at an angle around 30 degrees or so when binding in and see if that improves it for you. It's a good stop-gap until network-incompatible changes can be made that go beyond just the current NetIK's muscle-based handling of the pose

[waxen timber]

I think I did try that while troubleshooting. I tried a lot. Putting the chest tracker in different places. Raising and then lowering the waist tracker after calibration. Didn’t seem to make much difference but will try again.

I even tried putting the chest tracker on my back. Comedy!

The standard tracking in the ik is great for me fwiw, shoulders also look good and improved.

But sigh, I wanted rib cage movement.

[oak pendant]

I'd like to work on some additional improvements to lock-all mode, but doing that right now would break IK-Beta's compatibility with live

[vast tangle]

Where do you strap the trackers to for shoulder tracking

And what are the pros and cons of it over elbow tracking

[waxen timber]

Well, elbows, but it gives you shoulder movement.

I’m using elbows. Blows allow you to shrug and shoulder roll.

[vast tangle]

I have my elbow trackers strapped to the forearm side of my elbow

[oak pendant]

It should always be above the elbow / on the upper arm

[vast tangle]

Hmm

[waxen timber]

I put them above the elbow but they’re still elbow trackers,

[oak pendant]

Anywhere rigidly attached to the upper arm bone will work. It can be nearer to the elbow or up higher on the arm, whatever is comfortable

Think of both elbow and shoulder tracking as "upper arm bone tracking" with those joints at both ends

[vast tangle]

That makes more sense

So if I have them say on my bicep should they be bound as elbow or shoulder trackers in steamvr

[oak pendant]

Just don't have them set as held-in-hand in SteamVR and VRChat's calibration will take care of the rest

If they're held-in-hand they might be treated as controllers which will mess stuff up

[vast tangle]

Interesting

So this whole time the roles did nothing?

[waxen timber]

So kung, if spinal adjustments would help me now, but a fix is coming. Any estimates on that change? Is it definitely an avatar scaling issue, or could it be something else? Or do we not know what fixes it? It might be worth it to me to get help even if it breaks at some later date when things presumably work better.

[oak pendant]

Well, the default is held-in-hand, so setting it away from that default does help. If you already have your normal hand controllers turned on first you might have been avoiding issues there, but I definitely recommend setting the roles to something other than held-in-hand

[vast tangle]

No I had them bound to the exact roles

Right foot on right foot etc

[oak pendant]

No harm in doing that, but we don't require it

[vast tangle]

Figuring out which was which was a pain

Good to know it’s not needed

[oak pendant]

The current behavior will be affected by relative bone lengths in the spine, but I'd like to do more on our end to support a wider range of avatars, and right now even best-case is pretty finicky. So I wanted to mention I have plans to further improve it before you spend tons of effort dialing it in.

[waxen timber]

Is that going to be in the upcoming release eventually or in a later release?

[oak pendant]

I can't promise when that would be, but there's decent chance it would be after things go live, in a subsequent patch.

Meaning even once IK2.0 comes out, I still wouldn't immediately jump on trying to tune up an armature for lock-all mode

Of course if you want to play around with it and see what you can do, go for it. But you were talking about commissioning avatar work, etc. I wouldn't recommend doing that.

[grand lynx]

aww, really love lock all for dancing, but i understand

[robust tangle]

Is there a cure for “real life height” always having bent knees? I must always lie and say I am considerably shorter in order to not have bent knees. This is even after using Advance setting’s floor fix

Regardless of avatar, they all do it

[marsh elm]

bent knees... doesnt that mean your avatar's legs are too long?

limb sizes

[tidal trellis]

bent knees for me happens when i look down

[harsh lagoon]

So i was looking around and as far as i can tell this hasnt been discussed or put up in the canny, and since this is the IK beta and the question i have is IK related i'll ask here.
I've noticed for years now that 3PT users that use larger avatars start having really weird movements, specifically their spine/hips never straighten out and it gets worse any larger they get. You cant look down because your hips get thrown backwards for some reason and then your legs are floating above ground lol. Never quite understood why that issue exists but was wondering if theres anything to do to fix it. I've been told to try scaling my avatar up to that size in blender but I dont really wanna have to do that if i dont have to.

Its not too big an issue since i dont use giant avatars very much, but the occasional time that i'm messing around with people it just looks silly

i can provide a video if needed

[rancid glen]

It happens with all avatars and has been for years yes, it happens because the way looking down works currently is moving your hips back as you said, which is unnatural to say the least, when looking straight down you use your neck and head to look down your chest, you don't move your hips back (which is what causes your avatar to lift off the ground), comparing this to desktop where your avatar actually just uses the neck and head to look around (looks a lot more stiff but desktop also doesn't use chest, arms and has a completely different posture compared to VR)

Its seemingly worse for Quest (mobile) users, they often float (or see PCVR users float) and looking down just yeets them away (i frequently see it in among us lobbies with the standard avatars). This issue is only amplified with a bad view point position, the further out (from the center of your head) you put your view point the more your hips will be shoved backwards

[harsh lagoon]

yeah i thought it was something to do with viewpoint but nothing would help

[rancid glen]

You can only minimize it but you can't get rid of it

[grand lynx]

If you lower yourself slightly before locking in it can reduce the knees bending. After a while you get a feel for exactly how you need to lower yourself it to line up right. But it causes issues with the feet, you may lift up a bit when you look down

Also keep in mind, legs being too long is an issue, you don't want to shorten them too much it looks unnatural. Arm length plays a huge role in how your avatar scales as well.

Sometimes its as simple as adjusting the arm scale ratio in steam. The default that was in place didnt work for me.

[snow flame]

Hi there. I tried looking in previous chats about my issue but could not find a remedy. In the ik 2 beta, when i attempt to calibrate my 6-point tracking it still ends up only being 3-point. when i swap to the legacy tracking it is also not calibrating correctly. it sort of just leaves me in a strange frozen state even the i see the calibrations orbs in the correct positions prior.

I use an Oculus CV1 with vive trackers if this info is helpful.

[digital grove]

do you see the spheres of your trackers?

did you pair them?

in steamvr

[timber grove]

-Are there any mods installed? If so, remove them.

• Try assigning tracker roles in SteamVR settings. Even though VRChat does not use tracker roles, it may, just may, help.

[snow flame]

i do not use mods. and in steamvr i have them set to roles. left mfoot, right foot and waist. and i also see the spheres.

[digital grove]

Are you pressing the triggers to calibrate

Also, does this mean in the non beta it's working for you?

[snow flame]

yeah. non beta its working. i do press the triggers to calibrate. i then proceed to look like my first picture even though my spheres were where the should be when i press the triggers.

[digital grove]

[snow flame]

when the ik2beta was new this issue didn't exist. this happened recently a few weeks ago.

[digital grove]

I've never seen this behaviour

But I can test it in a few

[digital grove]

just tested it

6 point is working fine for me

could it be somethhing with your avatar?

[snow flame]

i've tried other avatars. same issue. you also used an oculus cv1 and allowed multiple drivers to use vive trackers?

[digital grove]

i havve an index

[snow flame]

that's my setup. oculus cv1 with vive trackers. this was never an issue before

[dusty dirge]

try setting the tracker roles to "Disabled" in steamvr settings
if they're assigned to a role, wierd things can happen

[rustic berry]

more specifically, any role that is not "Held in hand" will be fine

[snow flame]

i'll try this the next time. ty

[digital grove]

I do have my trackers assigned so I don't think this is the culprit

[digital grove]

what is "multiple drivers"

what does that do and where do you set it

[rustic berry]

steamvr config file setting, allows you to use multiple ecosystems at once

like lighthouse + oculus

[snow flame]

it's what you need to use for oculus + lighthouse. yeah. it's worked before.

[digital grove]

I see

then in my case it's most certainly off

[little zealot]

so uh

if i'm laying down on a couch with my head propped up with the ik2 beta active, it pushes my chest way into the air

if i do full lock on head and hips it fixes it but makes my body look jank

how do i hit a happy medium here?

it was fine with IKT before

[robust tangle]

had another MMD party ruined by the index root motion bug :(

group dances just look so bad with everyone stacked on each other

[raw wadi]

mmd party ?

[dusk anvil]

who tryna get stuck at 0,0,0 w/ me

[tame pewter]

[jovial shadow]

Anyone noticed, that the knee behavior worsened after the last 2 updates?
6point tracker on feet

[devout current]

Hm I use the IK 2.0 Beta every day with 6 poin, my knees look fine to me

I also have them on my feet

[livid skiff]

Can you give me more detail on what to look for? i didnt play that often but havent really noticed something being worse with them

[primal palm]

I believe IK-beta has an ignore range for trackers, so if the trackers are too far away from their expected points they won't track.

This was probably added for people with trackers they don't want to use for FBT.
Tundra trackers won't turn off if you are charging them for example.

Could you try to get the spheres showing up closer to the waist and feet?

the calibration looks really off as-is

(I run Quest 2 + Index controllers so I have to line my playspace up more accurately)

[snow flame]

i made them look off on purpose to show that the spheres are visible because otherwise they would've been hard to see. When I do actually calibrate the spheres are accurately where they are on my body on my avatar and real life.

[primal palm]

ah, alright

strange then, FBT works for me with a sort of similar setup. 🤔

and I have tracker roles set

[devout current]

Have you tried what others suggested before? So setting the trackers in SteamVR to hip, feet etc and to make sure none are set to Hold in Hand.

[snow flame]

yes. I've set the roles to left foot, right foot and waist. if that's what you mean.

[jovial shadow]

More knee movement on foot wiggle and of your foot is close to your ass, they now have a similar behavior like the elbows if you get too close ro your shoulders

2 updates ago, the knees where so much better in my opinion

[livid skiff]

i'll test around a bit when i'm on again. The knee moving weirdly away when my feet are close to my butt is indeed a bit annoying. I like to sit in poses where they are close to my butt and cant really do that because my knees bend away ingame.
But i'm affraid that i can't say of it got worse or not because i didnt pay too much attention to it before

[digital grove]

That might just be a matter of personal opinion.
The knees are of course being predicted in 6p because there is no way to know exactly where they are without knee trackers.
If you want that level of precision, you should consider getting knee trackers. (I did)

[jovial shadow]

You never can estimate the knees with 6 point and on the feet, but the knees seemed more stable with overall better estimations in more folded positions

[narrow yew]

i posted about a crash that has been happening when trackers seem to be reconnecting / resetting / reattaching https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/vrchat-crash-when-trackers-reset-or-reconnect

[devout current]

Hm, I don't have that issue

It's weird that it only happens when you felt asleep though

[lethal light]

I've definitely had that happen before, although last time I remember it happening (few days ago) I was on linux so I chalked it up to valves terrible steamvr implementation; however, maybe it is more than just that?

[devout current]

I'm just confused what the difference is between your self turning them off and SteamVR turning them off that causes this to happen.

[snow flame]

to better show my issue i recorded what it looks like. what i failed to mention before is when calibrating full body on beta it does catch my hip tracker but not my feet

i've tried setting tracker roles and disabling them in steamvr. no difference.

[devout current]

I'm even more confused now ngl

[oak pendant]

Are you using your actual IRL height as your User Real Height?

[snow flame]

Changing that has fixed my issue. Thanks!

[oak pendant]

If you were using a custom User Real Height to get the avatar to fit, I suggest using the Avatar Measurement toggle, setting it to "height" mode instead

[devout current]

How did that cause this btw? The all trackers looked like they all lined up perfectly?

[oak pendant]

Disregarding trackers that are too distant from your body depends on the body size you specify using the User Real Height setting. I'm assuming it was set artificially low in this case. The system is told that you're 4'8" but remember that during calibration the avatar will be aligned with your standing height no matter the User Real Height Setting. So you can imagine it looking for a 4"8' person hanging off the face of a much taller person. It won't look all the way down to the taller person's feet when searching for trackers.

Tracker assignment depends more on tracker placement vs real body, however tracker binding / motion depends on placement compared to the avatar

It's a little confusing, but this prevents things like having knee trackers bind to an avatar's feet when the knee trackers are closer to the feet on the avatar, even though the IRL human wearing them would have them obviously on knees

Up to an extent, messing around with the User Real Height setting will still work because there is some leeway in the detection ranges. But if you go really far out, various systems will start to function unexpectedly. If you find yourself setting a very inaccurate User Real Height, it's better to use the Avatar Measurement toggle or the --custom-arm-ratio= launch option

[devout current]

Ah interesting, thx for the info ^^

[final raven]

Wonder what's in this patch~ 🤔

[dusk anvil]

AAHHH

[final raven]

Ah nvm lol

[ionic heron]

boo-dip

[devout current]

noice

[oak pendant]

Hopefully this will help people still having issues with knees

If you had a custom IKPose for the legacy system, you should be able to reuse it now too

[dusk anvil]

kmiicep

[empty solar]

I've been thinking for a bit, but from what I can gather the longer the shoulder bone is the more likely the chicken wing can happen

[dusk anvil]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/449386885299830794/978490843952447568/unknown.png
kung no!! you have to put the ball more into your arm!!! your trackings gonna suck !

oh no he can't hear us he has air pods in

[oak pendant]

Hehe, it's above my elbow, it's within spec!

[dusk anvil]

it's outside your ar m

[empty solar]

I still want that option to enable tracker balls within the debug menu

[dusk anvil]

shit look like it boutta roll off and ur juggling it

[oak pendant]

Haha well, we don't yet have the technology to embed trackers inside our own flesh 😅

[ionic heron]

yet
:monkas:

[dusk anvil]

not with that attitude

[digital grove]

vein tracking when

[dusk anvil]

the haritoraX can do toe tracking

[digital grove]

what'cha talkin'bout willis

[robust tangle]

and you can push it with OSC

[digital grove]

it doesn't even track your feet does it

[dusk anvil]

it can

it has ankle detection camera shit in the bottom unit

it can do vertical movement but not so much horizontal

[robust tangle]

Do you have horizontal rotation on your toes? 🤨

[dusk anvil]

im talking about the feet themselveS

let me rephrase a bit

[digital grove]

interesting I didn't know that, I wonder how good it is

[ionic heron]

twists toes

[robust tangle]

Everything I hear puts haritoraX on par with Vive trackers.

[digital grove]

I can rotate my toes in 5 dimensions

[digital grove]

vro no

what'cha talkin'bout willis

[robust tangle]

🤷‍♂️

[digital grove]

very el wrongo

haritorax is basically the same as slime vr

[robust tangle]

I know what I heard!

[digital grove]

doesn't work for rapid movements i.e. dancing because it makes it drift fast af

[vital inlet]

He isn't wrong, HaritoraX is pretty close to true tracked Vive

[digital grove]

and has the "floaty" feel, like slimevr because it's the same technology

[vital inlet]

A load of dancers with really nice setups have said it is pretty close, and it just feels the software is lacking

[digital grove]

it's a hardware limitation more than the software

also who are these "load of dancers"

would be cool to read what they said or see videos if they posted them

[vital inlet]

These are people I am talking to directly in app

[digital grove]

here is my source of this information #general-media message

[vital inlet]

Names are long forgotten, but 70% of those who I comm'd with own 2.0 and 3.0s and prefer Haratora

[digital grove]

@weak pivot has the haritorax

[vital inlet]

This is one in X, software and hardware is notorious for having niche issues, IIRC ThrillSeeker had some info on it

[digital grove]

drift is a known problem of this technology

it's a hardware limitation

[vital inlet]

Calibration fixes that

[digital grove]

yes, but if you wanna dance and it can't keep up that's not cool

if you don't wanna dance, then it's probably good enough for many people

[vital inlet]

Most I know is the people I talked to are slow-dancers and say it feels pretty spot on if they cal before starting

[weak pivot]

yes

[vital inlet]

They love the freedom and the fact that certain movements are not spazzy because of occlusion any more

[ionic heron]

drift will always be an issue with IMU tracking afaik, though how bad of an issue it is depends on the IMU itself and how you deal with it in software (i.e filtering)

[weak pivot]

frantic movement is a nono with haritorax

[digital grove]

I'm not sure what a slow dance involves but I guess if your movements are slow it might be tolerable

[vital inlet]

I hear from slime it is night and day

[ionic heron]

default dance but at 25% speed

[vital inlet]

slime just is really bad at catching pose

[digital grove]

for me it wouldn't be enough (which is why I got vive trackers )

[vital inlet]

Trackers will always be best

if you have wallet

And occlusion is where it falls off

[weak pivot]

the thing is I can walk and lay in bed just like I would normally do and hari will keep track of it perfectly fine

[digital grove]

that is pretty cool indeed

[whole glacier]

#full-body-tracking 🤔

[vital inlet]

ik-2 is kinda a pseudo track talk area

So I mean?

[whole glacier]

It's a beta feedback area

[digital grove]

I can happily say knee and elbow tracking are very cool

[vital inlet]

considering this was of the topic of the HartoraX on this beta ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[digital grove]

does haritorax do knees and elbow? or does it translate to only feet and hip

[whole glacier]

Yup :)

[devout current]

Yup, they are definitely cool. I have to say though that I could imagine 11p tracking to be a bit uncomfortable for just normally playing / chilling.

[digital grove]

the only thing I find uncomfortable in 10p tracking is when I want to cross my legs

gotta move around the tracker

[devout current]

Because of all the extra stuff that can be occluded and be in the way when sitting down/ laying down on something like a couch

[whole glacier]

Way late 🤣
But I ment more like this.

[weak pivot]

knees but not arms

[digital grove]

also if you want to do push-ups in VR, putting the knee trackers on the front is uncomfortable

[vital inlet]

I bought a one piece and measured the screw pos, best tracking I have seen

[whole glacier]

I actually don't notice many issues with 11 point tracking.

[weak pivot]

besides how can it do elbows when it's for lower body

specifically

[whole glacier]

"I'm not sure if it's beta specific but.
Is it just me or do avatars always calibrate slightly to the left for anyone else?"

[weak pivot]

with the ability for chest tracker

[digital grove]

oh you are right I forgot it didn't include the upper part of the body

[weak pivot]

my job is done here. Time to mute this channel again

[digital grove]

thanks pea

[weak pivot]

yes Omega the only channels I have unmuted are general-1, off-topic and open beta announcements

[marsh elm]

imagine going in general

i chat in support channels like a chad

[whole glacier]

If I make a feedback post should it go in IK beta?

[digital grove]

if it's about the ik beta then yes

[dusk anvil]

I have an emote speed slider on my avatar

the default speed is 10% on the radial puppet

[dusk anvil]

what counts as frantic in this case

and how bad does the tracking get during said frantic movement

[digital grove]

1m/s

[marsh elm]

you just realized you sat on an anthill

level frantic

[dusk anvil]

so you're saying stuff like uhh
shaking around violently

[digital grove]

dancing

including shaking violently

[dusk anvil]

like "playing beat saber with your entire body" movement

[marsh elm]

im imagining one guy doing the michael jackson lean to cut blocks

[dusk anvil]

is regular less frantic dancing fine?

[marsh elm]

hee hee

[digital grove]

if it's like tai chi meditation maybe

regular dancing is not really slow innit

[dusk anvil]

not really much of a vr dancer i just want it to not implode on itself if i make a shitty attempt to do the orange justice

have y'all seen the haritora japanese Twitter? they say stuff about an updated model recently. let's move to #full-body-tracking

[weak pivot]

Just dance type of movement

[dusk anvil]

[jovial shadow]

how high can a chest tracker be warn? like lower neck also?

[dusk anvil]

put it on the chest

like
center

[jovial shadow]

chest is bad if you go on the ground belly first

[dusk anvil]

put it on the side of your chest like how you wear the hip tracker sometimes

[jovial shadow]

and well you know, putting it on a collar

https://tenor.com/view/anime-shy-gif-18334899

[dusk anvil]

don't imagine you'd be able to move your neck much if a tracker is in the way

[ionic heron]

don't bodyslam the chest tracker lmao

[jovial shadow]

lower part of the neck has minimal movement

[dusk anvil]

still gonna be uncomfu

[jovial shadow]

vive 2.0 will take it like a champ, more worried about the ribcage

[dusk anvil]

just put it at same vertical place as chest just rotate strap so the trackers on the side

[jovial shadow]

neck tracking when?

[dusk anvil]

you have a headset for a reason 😛

[jovial shadow]

12ponit xD

[dusk anvil]

hi kung

[ionic heron]

If your neck moves enough from your head to require it's own tracker, you should probably see a doctor

[oak pendant]

Here's the fundamental issue that people are requesting a fix for. You can see why this requires direct control of the hand #ik-2 message

[dusk anvil]

fuck head tracking all my homies have neck tracking

[jovial shadow]

also the other thing that also bothers many, is the avatar freeze on hitboxes preventing you to bend over a table with a hitbox, will that ever be removed?

[rustic berry]

I still remember watching those videos from Reactant showing off 11pt tracking in Neos and thinking "wow, I'm never going to do that, but it looks cool"

[oak pendant]

(this is continuing a discussion from #open-beta-discussion )

[dusk anvil]

continue deez

[rustic berry]

I actually just tried to find those videos but it seems that Reactant completely fell off the face of the earth

[dusk anvil]

[rustic berry]

due to drama in the Neos community

[dusk anvil]

[rustic berry]

not surprised

[devout current]

Btw coming back to my topic Kung, I noticed this as bug just because it felt a bit weird that they first reach more out then your hand and then come back. It's not a huge issue, but it definitely felt a bit weird.

[dusk anvil]

big man in charge being into crypto for no reason and having a standoff with literally all of the devs moment

[rustic berry]

lool

[dusk anvil]

wonder if any neos devs that leave due to the crypto shit will end up coming here instead

or if that's already happened

anyways

[oak pendant]

It's kind of janky right now because the lower body doesn't freeze. I'd like to fix it to be less janky, might be nice to have it have a bit of leeway before freezing so reaching over a table wouldn't stop you so easily, but walking through walls isn't incentivized

[dusk anvil]

ik beta am i right

[oak pendant]

Yeah, it should be only when above from the direction of your chest, so you should only be able to see it happen if you crane your neck. The benefit it provides is when people extend a hand to wave to a friend etc, it looks much nicer

[jovial shadow]

but freezing on walls you stand to close to is also really irritating

[dusk anvil]

imvrse kenimotiks tew

[devout current]

That sounds like the best solution tbh, it would stop people from going through walls, but would not freeze you when reaching over a table or a chair etc.

[jovial shadow]

it would need a buffer zone

[rustic berry]

hey just to make sure, I noticed that the IK beta is being merged to live. will the live-compatible IK beta still be going on to further refine things, or what's going on?

[oak pendant]

Yeah, so (not a promise just thinking out loud) if you had like 1m of leeway it might feel better without causing game-design issues

[jovial shadow]

and potentially putting the hitbox on the hip maybe?

[dusk anvil]

suggestion: don't let the player even look through the wall like a certain other game does it

[rustic berry]

and about that freezing thing, why does the avatar freeze in the first place?

[devout current]

That sounds reasonable, I really hope you can get this done ^^

[rustic berry]

is it not possible to just not freeze the player?

[dusk anvil]

to prevent it from going through wall

[devout current]

certain other game?

[dusk anvil]

two words that both start with r

[ionic heron]

there are legitimate reasons you'd like to prevent the player's avatar from going through a wall

held game items, as an example

[dusk anvil]

viboe gaem

[ionic heron]

Udon world colliders attached to the avatar, etc

[devout current]

That would cause immense issues in game worlds, people would just go through walls and grab / press stuff they shouldn't be able to.

[dusk anvil]

who up tryna get stuck in a wall with me

[dusk anvil]

another hint the avatars don't have legs and it's infested with kids

[fathom gust]

I started having a issue where if I'm in full body and my head goes below a certain height, it won't use my hip tracker anymore

[ionic heron]

you can say other game titles here, y'know

[digital grove]

What's a reactant

[oak pendant]

It won't. The next IK2.0 updates will likely be non-live compatible changes. I wanted to mention in this channel too (we were talking in #open-beta-discussion ) We'll probably close down this channel at some point after release. So just wanted to say thanks for all your beta testing! The last many weeks of changes to IK2.0 are directly based on your feedback, so big thanks to everyone!! 🙏

[unborn whale]

Surely you could put the player in a "no interactions" state when they would usually freeze at a wall, but not disable tracking and kill my immersion because i sat down a little too close

[fathom gust]

It'll still track my feet but it'll stop using my hip tracker to place my hip

It also occasionally will only track one foot even if I properly align my trackers with my avatar's feet

[rustic berry]

I see. will those changes be part of the normal open beta, or will it remain as a separate beta?

I'm asking because if it was with the normal open beta, I assume updates would be less frequent

[devout current]

I suppose they wont be in any beta

[minor rampart]

@oak pendant A bit off-topic, but still adjacent to full body.

Are there any plans to officially support a toggle that enables/disable locomotion? It's still rather frustrating that this has to be set up on a per avatar basis and you have to have 2 identical models if you want to utilize a walking animation, even temporarily.

[rustic berry]

whereas if it was its own beta, you'd basically be free to push new updates whenever you wanted (for the most part)

[oak pendant]

Depends on timing, they may come as direct patches to live, or rolled in with the next release during its open beta

[rustic berry]

I see

[ionic heron]

that wouldn't prevent issues with things attached/dependent on the avatar's bones, and could also just be trading one frustrating situation for another, where you sometimes won't be able to interact with stuff without knowing why

[devout current]

If there is one (hopefully not).

[devout current]

I would love that, I had to put in an entire locomotion controller because of this. I wanted to be able to toggle it instead of it just always being off. When just hanging out etc I don't want locomotion, but I defiantly do want it when playing games like Murder etc.

[oak pendant]

Most I can say there is that I'd also like to have such an option, but it would hypothetically have to wait until a bigger pass on UI config for a lot of these things, (and deciding if it should live with IK options or someplace else)

[minor rampart]

Good to hear---I understand UI is holding a lot of things up right now--but glad to hear it's a desired feature. Thanks!

[rustic berry]

personally, it should either live besides the FBT toggle, or besides the Gesture toggle in the radial menu

(or both!)

[devout current]

Tbh it's a part of the IK in my opinion, so it should defiantly go in to the Ik section. There isn't much space there though sadly.

[unborn whale]

It seems like something you'd use on the fly, so the expression menu seems like a good spot

[rustic berry]

just like how nameplates have options both in the quick menu and radial menu

[oak pendant]

Good feedback. Yeah if it were to be with IK there's also the question of finding a UI home for toggling shoulder tracking and tracker-freeze-on-disconnect etc. Seems kind of related to that too

[rustic berry]

what if IK stuff had its own quick menu tab at the bottom?

[devout current]

Stuff like toggling shoulder tracking isn't something you need to do all the time, so maybe give that stuff their own section in the Main Menu 2.0 Settings Page?

[rustic berry]

since the current settings tab is getting quite crowded, especially since the avatar dynamics added even more stuff to it

Worlds are supposed to be able to add their own quick menu tabs in the future, so I don't see why IK couldn't have its own :p

[devout current]

That would probably be too much, the QM is for quick acces, everything that you wouldn't want to change all the time should go in to the Main Menu.

[rustic berry]

right, but the main menu also really obstructs your view. when tweaking IK settings, I would rather be able to see myself in the mirror

[oak pendant]

These are all good points!

[devout current]

I feel like you guys need a UX department xD

[rustic berry]

I like this sort of back and forth discussion to try to figure out the best way to do this. if you'd like me to create a Canny post for this, let me know.

[rustic berry]

they probably do

pretty sure VRC employs ~65 people

[loud patio]

I got denied a job at vrc sadly

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I'm less involved with that side of stuff, which is why it sounds like I'm speaking less directly when the topic gets into UX.

[rustic berry]

understandable. you did also mention that it was far easier to get options added as launch parameters rather than adding UI stuff lol

[digital grove]

UX is done by kung's split personality Kang

[rustic berry]

is there someone who does work on the UX side of things that would be interested in chatting about ideas related to IK options?

[rustic berry]

what about King

and Kong

[digital grove]

He works on network stuff

[digital grove]

Sound

[oak pendant]

Not all team members are active on discord, but when it comes to stuff related to IK things I can represent that internally to the team when those topics come up

[rustic berry]

I see

[devout current]

I love UI / UX a lot. So I will be really happy once UI 2.0 comes out :p

[oak pendant]

So I can be like "good feedback, this is great! I want that too!" and then when it's an internal team discussion I can relay "community is expressing a need for X"

So if it's IK related yeah, you can let me know. But I'm pretty aware I think of what people want if it's been mentioned before too

[rustic berry]

awesome, thanks again for being as open as you are about this

[oak pendant]

Yeah hopefully we'll have a nice open beta period when more options can become available, give plenty of feedback then too

[rustic berry]

it's a huge shift from the walled garden it felt like before the last Dev stream last year

and I'm all for it lol

[lethal bridge]

where this year dev stream

[rustic berry]

would be cool

[devout current]

Kung, can you ask someone out of the team why there is now a worlds wing? It isn't in the change log of the open beta.

[oak pendant]

There's less telephone game maybe because I'm working on implementation as well as being active on discord. But I think in general everyone wants to be as open as possible, but simultaneously not making people disappointed if they feel something was promised when it was only being discussed.

[rustic berry]

make sense

[ancient geode]

when open beta goes live will it be the end of ik beta?

[tame pewter]

@ancient geode

[ancient geode]

thanks

[grand lynx]

Was there a change recently? My shoulders are boxy now, like im holding them up, They wont slope dope down any more.

this was before

[oak pendant]

If you're using tracked shoulders, then there was a change 2 patches ago

[grand lynx]

only happens with elbow trackers

[oak pendant]

Are you using your actual IRL height as your User Real Height? and also make sure to wear them on the upper arm, not lower arm

[grand lynx]

yes

[silk olive]

Hey, ive noticed when I do for lack of a better term, a "draw me like one of your French girls pose" while bending my hand up, my elbow bends backwards, but I was deliberately trying to break it xP

[grand lynx]

never mind, sorry, no idea why but my height was set like 3 inches higher... no idea how,i never change it

its fine now

[oak pendant]

Ok cool, yeah user real height matters much more now than legacy with various systems so if you have an issue that'd be the first thing I'd check. Glad it's working now for you 👍

[grand lynx]

sorry for false alarm

[oak pendant]

No problem 😁

[knotty acorn]

yeah, if I lay on my side and my elbow goes behind where my body is to like, prop myself up, my elbow shoots out in front of me. sometimes it just happens and I suddenly have a face full of elbow

[steel ocean]

still getting the same issue where every few minutes, sometimes more than once in a minute, the trackers (not controllers which are on dongles too) will pause for 1-2 seconds then come back. Switching off beta fixes the issue, or being insteam menu, i can see my ingame trackers pause, but steamvr menu they are fine. I wonder what is causing this

[mild nimbus]

I've had the same issue but I thought it was down to Tundra/Vive Wireless but it seems its something on VRChat's end

[steel ocean]

thats the steam menu view

[oak pendant]

Check your logs for a tracker role being changed or a device being connected or disconnected

[mild nimbus]

vrc logs I assume?

[oak pendant]

Just because it still tracks with the same rendermodel doesn't mean all the trackers would have the same indices, which is why they are paused to refresh when a tracker connection changes

yeah vrc logs

[lethal bridge]

that does look like when a tracker disconnects / reconnects

[oak pendant]

It may not be that your foot tracker is having a problem but if another tracker is constantly connecting/disconnecting it will mean the foot tracker's device index is no longer guaranteed. Previously we just let things sometimes swap to the wrong position for a moment if you had this issue, but we now freeze as indices are refreshed, to support the --freeze-tracking-on-disconnect launch option

if it were to hop to the wrong position while disconnecting, it would freeze you in a scrambled pose

[steel ocean]

would they be at least jittering in other places if dc'd?

[oak pendant]

Not necessarily but maybe, the vrc logs will record an event triggered by steamvr itself that indicates if a device connection has changed

[steel ocean]

ok pulling them now. its really weird, it started with tye may 11 update

[oak pendant]

yeah that's this: Added the --freeze-tracking-on-disconnect launch option.

you would have had the trackers sometimes jump to the wrong index instead

which would have been less noticeable maybe

because the same 2 second refresh window will trigger, so it would have jumped back after 2 seconds

and not all of them would have necessarily been incorrect. But yes to support that feature we now freeze when the indices may have been upset

[mild nimbus]

happens far more frequently when you have more trackers because if only one of them bugs out like that your entire body freezes up

its almost non-stop sometimes in 11-point tracking

sadly I only have logs from when I was in 6-point the other night

[lethal bridge]

really?

[oak pendant]

I don't personally have the issue with 11point but yeah, depending on your RF environment or possibly issues with your dongles or something, you may have a harder time the more trackers you have on

[mild nimbus]

for me at least, doesn't help wireless + 11-point in an apartment building where everyone has their own wifi router makes for tracking hell

[grand lynx]

have my dongles spread out pretty widely in 11 point and rarely experience it personally

[steel ocean]

2022.05.24 19:50:14 Log - [IK Debug Log] Number of active trackers changed from: 0 to: 3

2022.05.24 19:50:15 Log - HTTPFormUseage:UrlEncoded

2022.05.24 19:51:08 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Device connected

2022.05.24 19:51:09 Log - VRCApplication: OnApplicationFocusLost at 88.50916

2022.05.24 19:51:11 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Refreshing tracker info...

2022.05.24 19:51:11 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Tracker info for LHR-53B07AAA was updated

2022.05.24 19:51:11 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Tracker info for LHR-43E6F40A was updated

2022.05.24 19:51:11 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Tracker info for LHR-09A8C248 was updated

2022.05.24 19:51:12 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Device connected

2022.05.24 19:51:15 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Refreshing tracker info...

2022.05.24 19:51:15 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Tracker info for LHR-53B07AAA was updated

2022.05.24 19:51:15 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Tracker info for LHR-43E6F40A was updated

2022.05.24 19:51:15 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Tracker info for LHR-09A8C248 was updated

2022.05.24 19:51:21 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Device connected

2022.05.24 19:51:23 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Refreshing tracker info...

2022.05.24 19:51:23 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Tracker info for LHR-53B07AAA was updated

2022.05.24 19:51:23 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Tracker info for LHR-43E6F40A was updated

2022.05.24 19:51:23 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Tracker info for LHR-09A8C248 was updated

2022.05.24 19:51:26 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Device connected

2022.05.24 19:51:28 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Refreshing tracker info...

2022.05.24 19:51:28 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Tracker info for LHR-53B07AAA was updated

2022.05.24 19:51:28 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Tracker info for LHR-43E6F40A was updated

2022.05.24 19:51:28 Log - [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Tracker info for LHR-09A8C248 was updated

[mild nimbus]

better to upload the entire log .txt

[lethal bridge]

looks like it, connecting logs then tracker refresh

[steel ocean]

oh ok

[mild nimbus]

should embed in discord just fine

[oak pendant]

What you'll be looking for are these: [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Device connected

[oak pendant]

that's updated in open beta to specify if it's a disconnect or a connect, but right now both event from steamvr will trigger the [Always] [IK Debug Log] [Steam] Device connected log entry in ik beta

unfortunately right now we aren't logging which one is connecting / disconnecting, you might be able to find that in some steamvr logs, though I'm not sure where to look

I can see that it's happening pretty often with the timestamps though

[mild nimbus]

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\logs but there's a LOT of different logs

[oak pendant]

my gut would say the vrserver log might be a good place to start looking

yeah, @steel ocean trying looking at vrserver.txt in Steam\logs

[oak pendant]

it appears to show the serial number of devices as they disconnect

[mild nimbus]

No legacy bindings found for app steam.overlay.250820, controller type vive_tracker_left_foot. Trying generic.

🤨

[steel ocean]

I think the other one had me walking in and out of playspace to check computer also. This one i calibrate once, and stand still before closing

Let me find the steam log, Its so weird that in steam menu and non-beta it doesnt replicate, this time i was just standing still in the middle of 4 base stations too, it's almost like its refreshing them more than they are lost

(what it feels like, im a fool)

[oak pendant]

So for example, in the steam overlay, it could display a tracker at index:3 in the position of your left foot, then you have a device reconnect, and now the position of your left foot is index:4 visually you see a device there so you think nothing is wrong, but internally it's important what index that was, so just seeing it doesn't mean there isn't a problem

[mild nimbus]

wouldn't this all imply something is going weird between how SteamVR is outputting the data and how VRchat is reading it?

[steel ocean]

ok so i pulled the events from just that moment and it looks liek this

[oak pendant]

Because we don't require people to accurately set tracker roles, if we lose a reference to a previously calibrated tracker we must reestablish it somehow. Currently the serial number is used. Unfortunately immediately polling all device indices to return their serial number isn't accurate in the moment that a steamvr device connection event occurs, and a small delay is needed

[steel ocean]

I do have them assigned in steam though

[mild nimbus]

interesting, wonder what then about the May 11th update trigger this new issue

[oak pendant]

Unfortunately that's unrelated to your issue

[steel ocean]

Yeah im not sure

oh ok

it sucks in the moment though, especially while talking and sitting with legs up, because momentarily my whole body follows my head 2-4 times over the course of like 5 min

[oak pendant]

previously we'd allow an index shuffle to just occur and operate on possibly bad data until we can recapture based on serial number (2 seconds later) But because of the requested feature to freeze trackers on disconnect, we actually need quite accurate positions during the disconnect process otherwise it might freeze bound to the wrong location. So we can only operate on assumed good data

I can see that this is an issue though and maybe this freeze behavior should be restricted to the case that you operate with that launch option active

[mild nimbus]

if there's not another way around it that might be the best solution

[oak pendant]

Polling more often for the serial number is an option, but at a performance inefficiency cost. There may be other possible solutions as well, but there's a point that I can't talk about exact specifics of how we do things internally

[steel ocean]

So it's like an overactive feature

understandable

if trackers are assigned, and consistent across sessions, is there a way to permamark the roles in vrc?

[oak pendant]

Not currently, but once calibrated in a session the same serial number will map to the same calibrated body part even after disconnects

For ease of use we don't require the tracker role assignments to be accurate

(though held-in-hand role can mess stuff up)

[oak pendant]

As an analogy, it's more like if you put your trackers under some cups in the ball and cup scramble game magicians sometimes do. Before we'd be like "meh, there's a tracker here, ok" even after the scramble (devices disconnecting and reconnecting). Then slowly read number written on the bottom of them and correct as we go along. Now (to support the tracker freeze in place feature) if they get possibly scrambled we gotta go "wait a second, lemme read those serial numbers to make sure none of these are swapped"

and it's the "wait a second" that you're experiencing during device connection changes

But there's really nothing wrong with using the bad data for a second, as long as you don't need to freeze it in place during a disconnect. So the simplest option here is to at least support using possibly bad data when you aren't using that launch option

because possibly bad isn't guaranteed to be bad, and overall it'd probably work better for you

[mild nimbus]

--allow-bad-tracking-data

[oak pendant]

I think people are gonna start lighting torches and grabbing pitchforks if I add another launch option 😅

[mild nimbus]

would be nice if a lot of these launch options could be offloaded to the in-game UI x.x

[oak pendant]

It makes sense to work in tandem with the freeze on disconnect feature anyway though because that's the reason it's needed

[steel ocean]

but the launch option may fix?

makes sense

like a placeholder info

[oak pendant]

such a launch option would cause lots of problems for the freeze on disconnect feature, so might as well have the existing feature be what causes a switch in the behavior

[mild nimbus]

--freeze-tracking-on-disconnect disallows bad data whereas the default allows it?

[oak pendant]

Yeah that would be the idea

[mild nimbus]

seems reasonable to fix a somewhat edge-case issue

hopefully can be rolled into the next Open Beta RC

[oak pendant]

Kind of unlikely for RC timing, but I'm convinced to revert the behavior for people not using the freeze launch option so it should get in to one of the post-release patches I think

[mild nimbus]

good to know, hopefully there won't be too much time in-between

[steel ocean]

Thanks for the feedback, I will wait for the launch option and just deal in mean time.

[whole glacier]

You can arleady do that.

At least for pressing things.

[rancid glen]

We're going out of beta and still haven't fixed the incredibly long transition from static pose to IK after walking that was introduced a couple patches back?
https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/11949-tracking-takes-very-long-to-set-in

[oak pendant]

The auto-foot-step engage process is prone to having little issues where it steps momentarily in the wrong direction or any number of other things that have gone through a process of polish and fixes through the course of the beta. Yeah, it would probably be nicer if it engaged faster in vr than in desktop but there's the possibility it'll try to step in the wrong spot again if the engage timing is off. The current slow blend in is intentional and it will go out of beta as is but there may be future adjustments.

[rancid glen]

oof thats kinda sad, before that change it was really good, i liked the faster engagement time

but i saw some people reporting that wrong ik target issue

i wonder whats actually causing it

making it an option per avatar upload would be a better solution

[whole glacier]

feedback post.
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/avatars-calibrate-slightly-to-the-left-from-the-neck-down

[clever latch]

not a big fan of recent knee prediction change in ik beta, really messed with a couple niche avatar legs that i frequently use.

[clever latch]

primarily backwards facing knees (Like a birds) suddenly became viable with ik beta and really added a lot to my avatar. I invested in trackers recently because they were. (Avatar was completely unsupported in legacy)

not so much now. Great change across the board for regular legs, not so much for others

[final raven]

Curious how the legs were rigged actually.

[clever latch]

dunno, its not something i think id know how to fix on my own

[gleaming imp]

I have a issue with my arms/elbows flipping around when I place my arms on my shoulders using 6 point tracking.
It is effective by the view point position.
This is the position I use

I will post a canny and video later tonight to show the effect

The only fix I found is place my view point ball all the way outside my face

Placing it inward make it even worse

Or maybe it the world location that has a effect on it. but most people I have talked to say it is a normal position

[devout current]

That's known, if you place your hand on the shoulder of that same arm it will flip around a bit.

Kung hopes to improve this in the future though.

[gleaming imp]

Ok well I'm also trying to help him out with extra information I have had this issue sins ik beta start

[devout current]

Yup, it's because of how the arm solver works

[harsh lagoon]

Yeah has been like that for a little bit, hopefully will improve a but

[zenith glacier]

Can you show us how the legs look like in blender? I know that my furry had some issues as well, so I gave it invisible knee&ankle in more humanoid positions and am using rotation constraints to move the real ones in unity

[clever latch]

I'm not at a computer and wont be for a little bit. I'm aware there is a more optimal solution with constraints and fake bones, but I'm not really interested in messing with that especially if it already worked.

that and I'm not that good with blender.

most I can do right now is just show what I mean

This is how they are posed normally(And how it behaved before): https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/856146408515698729/978990686747652096/VRChat_1920x1080_2022-05-25_21-52-15.294.png

[lean badger]

finally got around to trying the new version with elbow trackers. on models where shoulders didn't move before they move. but almost too much. on others they move about the same amount

or actually, maybe it's fine. might be down to calibration

[tame pewter]

if you interact with the vrchat window from steamvr/virtual desktop while in vr you will tpose

[clever latch]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/knee-bend-prediction-in-202212p4-in-fullbody-causes-specific-avatars-knees-to-bu

made a post

[lean badger]

i have one avatar that levitates during calibration with new ik, but not legacy

i use --enable-legacy-calibration, which might make a difference

it used to work fine up until a few updates ago

[dusk anvil]

don't use legacy calibration

[livid skiff]

i like legacy calibration better

[devout current]

I did first to, then I started to use the new version a bit more and prefer it 100x more. So much faster.

[high wave]

I use legacy calibration so I can line up my feet. Is it any easier now? The new way just didn't work because it didn't allow me to line up my trackers with my feet.

[digital grove]

how does it not allow you to do that exactly

that's always been possible

[rustic berry]

if the avatar's feet are far from your trackers, the avatar is at fault

[devout current]

I don't even look at my feet when calibrating, I'm just standing in a T-Pose IRL and done. It basically always fits perfectly.

[high wave]

My avatar is fine. I like the line up the trackers on the toes to match where they are irl. The new calibration method didn't allow me to do this because you need to look foward while calibrating. Looking down to line up my feet while callibrating messed it up. I asked if anything changed to make it easier since the last time I tried the new calibration was quite a while ago.

[oak pendant]

Since way back when it was first implemented, the addition of AV3 has made it more practical to get more precision with foot alignment because you can make your own custom TPose animation

If you find that when standing in a natural pose your feet are too far to one side or front or back, adjust accordingly in a custom TPose animation that you apply to the avatar and it should be doable to get a pretty consistent and precise fit with the non-legacy system.

[high wave]

I just prefer the old way because even if I use your method, my toes may simple be off because I am standing with them too far apart or too close. I will look at that solution but naturally, I am lazy and using something that is just working already.

[loud patio]

That moment when I used the T-pose layer to create my own custom t-pose idle animation where my character gets angry waiting for me to calibrate lol

[oak pendant]

Yeah, the legacy option still exists because dynamically positioning your feet doesn't have a better replacement. In my opinion (not a promise) we probably shouldn't remove the legacy option until there's an at-least-as-good dynamic alternative. But it's still considered legacy, so not a priority to support.

Thanks for your info on your avatar height being incorrect during calibration though. If it only happens on your avatar it's unlikely to be a high priority to fix, but if all avatars are messed up it might be something to look in to. Extra details on a canny would be good in that case

Personally, I really didn't like the new calibration method until I started messing with custom TPoses, and now I prefer it

[high wave]

Thanks for your efforts btw. Your videos are wonderful.

I'll definitely look into custom tposes.

[grand lynx]

having this issue again reliably, height is set correctly.

boooxy shoulders

[rotund vessel]

Last in this channel

[devout current]

Yay, at least this will stay

[rotund vessel]

o nvm

[hot fulcrum]

yeah, this is kung's playspace, nor tupper;s

[rotund vessel]

lel

[devout current]

This channel is now property of Kung.

[hot fulcrum]

Kung's Test bench™️

[tame pewter]

[hot fulcrum]

and IK beta moved to internal (k-test/k-dev) by now....

[clever thicket]

rip this channel

[zinc plank]

E

[carmine gate]

Damn

[runic rover]

im last

[carmine gate]

I'll miss you guys

[zinc plank]

L

miss y'all

[hot fulcrum]

nah...still open for while IIRC

Not planned to close imidiately IIRC

[carmine gate]

Now I have a lot of shit to update.....

[hot fulcrum]

yeah....IK2.0 as standard + SDK update there also

avatar perm slot be double as well.

[marsh elm]

yeet time

[real bane]

welp, now switch to live patch!

[marsh elm]

brace for modified users complaining about weird shit 🤪

[pure hedge]

Much love Kung ♥️

[dusk anvil]

thanks vrchat

[restive cloak]

We love you Kung! ❤️

[oak pendant]

Thank you guys for all the testing! You rock! So let's keep this channel around

• beta

[hot fulcrum]

channel name changed.

[terse kestrel]

welcome to your new home

[hot fulcrum]

Welcome to Kung's Home

[vital inlet]

yoo

[devout current]

We just moved

[oak pendant]

Get off my lawn!

Actually, no, you can stay!

Wait, come back~!

[devout current]

Yay :3

[hot fulcrum]

xD

[devout current]

stealing your Tundra Tracker

[oak pendant]

Well, I guess now that my trackers are gone, no more updates (/jk)

[devout current]

XD