ik-2

[final raven]

Gonna spend some more time this afternoon seeing if I can find anymore quirks or anything else that can be viewed as regressions~

[chilly juniper]

Unfortunately, it seems like the recent regression to the old legacy scale factor for measure by arm has made my experience worse overall. Proportions seem much worse than previously. Is there a canny post to vote on for the prior version instead of legacy?

[final raven]

Messing around with elbow positioning, does seem slightly better from what I remember last night~

[final raven]

https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-add-an-option-to-revert-scale-factor-to-previous-non-legacy-value

[chilly juniper]

Thank you

Elbows seemed better from what i was seeing though.

[final raven]

Actually gonna go to some avatar worlds I tested previously to further test the adjustments to scale-by-arm

[final raven]

Elbow clip prevention has been good so far in most cases for me.

Hmmm, so I'm actually kind of confused now. I'll need to find more models to test but what kind of regressions were others finding with the legacy scale factor in scale-by-arm span mode? Noticing a lot of others are finding it in general a regression.
https://files.catbox.moe/alzacw.mp4

Oof oh yeah, @oak pendant here's an instance of where I feel the elbow clip prevention works too well
https://files.catbox.moe/rmaqz9.mp4

Maybe it's just me, but when I extended my arm back down in front of my stomach, something about it just didn't feel natural at all.

Oh yeah like this pose for example

That arm bend in combination with the wrist just doesn't look right at all.

It looks fine most of the time when standing up, but laying down poses a few quirks with it.

Crossing my arms like this for example actually looks even better than previously.

[final raven]

Curious though how the elbow clipping adjustments feel for others. Some parts I feel might just be being overly nitpicky ^^;

[gleaming igloo]

Ayyo who’s playing Elden ring in the background? 😂

[final raven]

Lmao yeah, in a VC currently. 😛

[mint abyss]

I notice that in all instances of the VR IK is that half-body users lower-body locomotion (playspace walking) does not initialize unless in line of sight, and the issue is that it takes a good 2-3 seconds for the lower-leg ik to initialize, so they're sort of moving around without their legs moving for a brief period of time, has anyone else noticed this?

[final raven]

the issue is that it takes a good 2-3 seconds for the lower-leg ik to initialize, so they're sort of moving around without their legs moving for a brief period of time

Yeah, always been a thing actually.

[mint abyss]

I made a post in the feedback site

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/request-smooth-half-body-pronecrouch-transition

it is ik related, and affects all quest users,

but Kung already has a lot on his plate already so I wouldn't be surprised if this got reworked much later since two betas are being worked on at once.

[final raven]

Actually wait...

[final raven]

Actually I think that's mostly been eliminated? Now that you brought that up.

[mint abyss]

we could double check, I am enrolled in the IK beta, I'll check for the issue around a bit

[robust tangle]

Legacy arm scale seems to be better for me though I have not tested vigorously with many blueprints. I wish we could easily AB test by turning beta IK off

[final raven]

At least it seems like autostep IK is immediately kicking in now.

[wet gorge]

I found a fun bug that doesn't happen all the time with crouch and prone animations. Having a hard time replicating it, but if you're sitting down with one foot on your knee in full body and move around the legs in the crouch/prone animations turn your legs into a monster from the thing.

[mint abyss]

but I'm at school

[wet gorge]

I don't know if it always did that or if this is a new behavior though, just noticed it last night with the new ik beta.

[mint abyss]

try and record yourself replicating the issue

[wet gorge]

I will it was just like 2 am last night and I had to go to bed.

[final raven]

one sec

[final raven]

hmmm

[mint abyss]

compare to non-beta if you can, also the issue happens typically with other peoples avatars and it is based on line-of-sight when no cameras are present iirc

[mint abyss]

much better

[mint abyss]

Kung is the one responsible for the new ik mostly?

[final raven]

As far as I'm aware, yes.

[mint abyss]

I'm not even sure if that was a bug posted in the canny but that its fixed is really nice

[final raven]

So Kung, I was able to repro this issue on multiple avatars including the alien avatar. I added some additional info to this canny.
https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-legacyik-feet-ik-targets-previous-still-position-for-a-second

If you're still unable to repro it, please let me know~

[bold osprey]

some of the avatar elbows became misaligned, it was everything almowt perfect before this update.
it rotates crazy when im on 6point

the 10 point is okay

[merry gale]

I know there is a canny, but I have to mention the new scaling was way better than the legacy one. It fitted to my avatar which is as proportional as I could do it with my IRL size in the settings and that with heels or barefoot. Arms would be straight when straight IRL. We really need that back. It made me happy how well it fitted.

[bold osprey]

in th3 picture, im doing a 🙏🏼 symmetrical pose irl

[distant flame]

im having elbow ik problems too. was fine before

[polar blade]

was there any changes to beta? it feels sooooooo much worse now

i cant fully extend my arms anymore

[mint abyss]

you need to set your real world height accurately

[mint abyss]

real world height

[polar blade]

it's the same it was b4

[final raven]

- Increased shoulder motion range depending on upper arm angle
#ik-2 message

[polar blade]

oof

is there any public avatar out there that has "the perfect proportions" for reference?

all of mine get bendy elbows it's so annoying

[robust tangle]

Holy crap yes Omg

That was like the most ugly part of the IK for at least a year now

Hype if it’s finally gone

[final raven]

#ik-2 message

comparisons

[steel geode]

Real world height on the vrchat application that asks what your real height is or on the avatar itself?

Just want to confirm

Oh wait I didn’t see the announcement I’m dumb disregard

[tame pewter]

I added it to the canny, but originally I reported the issue as “Desktop feet IK targets old still position.”
The IK setting you choose in VR persists to Desktop, so I believe that’s what caused confusion when Kung tried to reproduce. I was using LegacyIK while they were using BetaIK. Both issues are known now, and just for clarification I added a comment to the canny.
#ik-2 message

[small quail]

sadly now my elbows go so far inward since my avatar's torso is super duper skinny.

[harsh lagoon]

essentially exactly what you said right there i felt too yeah

[robust tangle]

I feel like elbows are really good as of yesterday’s build, I couldn’t get them to clip no matter what

[final raven]

They're good, but too good in certain circumstances.
https://files.catbox.moe/rmaqz9.mp4

Slight regression in some cases in other words.

[grand lynx]

oh man, tracking both 3 and 10 point on arm length with hip lock was perfect, whatever has changed, it has really messed up my both 3 and 10 on arm length mode, finally testing it

either arms or viewpoint are off now depending on how i adjust

[coral cairn]

biggest change there was changing the arm scaling constant back to what it was before. More discussion:
https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-add-an-option-to-revert-scale-factor-to-previous-non-legacy-value

[spare moon]

Can I have a bit of help with bata

Beta*

[lethal light]

https://dontasktoask.com/

[tiny token]

Arm scaling is weirdly not symmetrical for me. There’s no way my left arm is that much shorter IRL, right…?

[marsh elm]

Uh oh

[deft spruce]

Is there a Canny created for elbow crunching in the Beta IK 2.0? Because whatever happened in the latest Open Beta broke the Awtter's elbow rotations.

Can the Open Beta please revert to the previous patch? I don't like it one bit.

And I hate the Legacy IK.

[final raven]

https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-elbow-twists-at-some-angles

[deft spruce]

Great, hope they fix it. Cause it's very annoying. Kinda defeats the purpose of IK 2.0

I think @strong nova made a Canny about it too, but it seems to still happen.

[strong nova]

My Canny post was about hands-on-hips positioning. Reply to Kung's comment on here. https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feedback-elbows-for-hands-on-hips-position-looks-awkward

[deft spruce]

Yeah, that still seems to happen.

[final raven]

Btw, Kung is already aware of the issue.
#ik-2 message

[deft spruce]

Good, cause I'm not happy about this issue at all. I can't stand using the old Legacy IK since I started using IK 2.0.

[dusk anvil]

upvoted

[merry gale]

It's not your avatar that is wrong. With the latest update they went back to the old somewhat wrong scale factor for your arms span measurement, which was fixed to a good working value before with the IK beta. There is a canny you might want to vote that is asking to return the better new scaling as an option. https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-add-an-option-to-revert-scale-factor-to-previous-non-legacy-value

[real bane]

It felt off the moment I put my arms forward versus the previous beta IK

I am doing the 10 point tracking and the elbows took a hit from the recent beta IK changes

[surreal pond]

In agreeance with Easyquest here; previous beta was perfect; able to use irl height with arms able to straighten when standing and extending arms around, this from having to shorten irl height to get arms to straighten out. (Index)

[cursive juniper]

The new IK seems to have weird broken arms

[final raven]

yee, kung will be continuing to work on that~
#ik-2 message

[cursive juniper]

For posterityyyy

[marsh elm]

oh lord

[final raven]

Oh god lmao, Kung will probably be curious to see how it looks in this world

https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2

[vivid apex]

yeah theyre a little... interesting

[dusk anvil]

hmm maybe the arms are a bit too good

gotta test the beta and see how broken my avatars arms are lul

[raw wadi]

Why mine are fine. That idk

[final moss]

Is the bug known where if you lay down your right foot is up higher up than your left?

Ive asked a friend and he has the same issue

Its noticable when just laying on a flat surface in fbt

[polar blade]

Thanks. Upvoting

[flint bison]

head lock arms wiggle with head rotation

[vital inlet]

So that is the weird thing that was bugging me last night

already thought my controllers had a moment ...

[past spruce]

Seems to be related to this: #ik-2 message

[lavish glade]

Have there been any odd interactions with the IK Beta and Unity colliders on an avatar folks have seen? Been wondering if something I've been doing on an avatar has been causing issues or if it's related to the IK Beta

[oak pendant]

I haven't heard of any issues with unity colliders. To check if it's IK-Beta you'd need to swap over to the live build and check the avatar for the same issues there. If there's a difference then it might be IK-Beta causing it

[lavish glade]

Okay, and if it's not that I'll check the colliders; maybe I accidentally have some self-collision going on

[zenith glacier]

using cloth physics and capsule colliders? if so make sure they are set to "is trigger" otherwise enjoy the helicopter ride

[lavish glade]

That would explain a lot, I'll double-check

[robust tangle]

Report back with what you find, it’s nice to know when something isn’t a bug as well

[minor rampart]

the elbows are SUPER wonky with the latest update. If I'm lying down and resting my hand on my upper chest...uhhh...things get weird.

it's fairly understandable your elbow won't bend and conform to your body, as it would in real life (at least not without trackers)

but now it'll contort wildly and stick straight up in the air or bend inside-out.

[oak pendant]

There will be an update sometime in the next few hours that should fix this. It's a known issue with the current build.

[minor rampart]

Oh. Alright. Thanks Kung. It's much appreciated.

[oak pendant]

👍 No problem, should be pretty soon. The build is ready, just running a final test on it and then reviewing patch notes for typos etc with comms team members.

Actually, I'll just put the new build on ik-beta now because the current elbows are pretty annoying if you're on one of the affected rigs. It's pretty early in the morning for the rest of the team but the open-beta-announcement channel needs review before posting there because it goes out to announcement subscribed discord servers.

I'll just post the patch note here for now, there'll be a more reviewed and stylish announcement later in the announcement channel.

Build 11712: Made predicted elbow direction less dependent on rig setup.

Ok build 11712 should be available on ik-beta if you restart steam now

[grand lynx]

Is that just a fix for the arms or is this reverting back to the arm length settings from last week?

I really loved the arm length settings with 10 point from last week, that was the best ive ever fit an avatar

[oak pendant]

No changes to measure-by-arms scale factor in this build

[grand lynx]

understood

[mystic urchin]

Apparently Desktop up and down got reverted (fixed?), This is so sad.

[idle apex]

big sad

[oak pendant]

Desktop up and down?

[mystic urchin]

In live the head bone is clamped to something less than what the camera could do, the previous ik beta patch allowed the head bone to follow the camera fully, now it's back to live :(

[oak pendant]

There shouldn't be any changes to that between 11711 and 11712 (the patch I just pushed a few minutes ago)

But 11711 did do some fixes to locomotion etc animation blending for the head, I think that would have likely "fixed" the desktop head thing too

[mystic urchin]

(maybe it was 2 patches ago)

[oak pendant]

Actually, yeah, I know what "broke" it and what "fixed" it and yeah would have been fixed in 11711

It was fun, but the intended operation is to look less broken I think

[mystic urchin]

Awww

[dusk anvil]

got emails from vrchat canny where thingies were fixed and there was the mention of build 11712 in the attached comments

new build imminent?

[oak pendant]

It's up now if you restart steam

[mystic urchin]

Lol

[dusk anvil]

wicked

ill test when i get home because i am not home rn

[oak pendant]

Cool, thanks for testing when you have a chance

[dusk anvil]

for now i will watch #open-beta-announcements

[oak pendant]

Info is here, also info on why it's not in announcements yet: #ik-2 message

[dusk anvil]

aah i see now
not much worth making an announcement over for now

i should also test to see if i can reproduce those bugs i was having earlier

ill make a feedback post if i can

[oak pendant]

Yeah, we've got cool people who's job it is to make sure communications are good and nobody sends a typo out to 100 subscribed discord servers too, and also make wording be good of word type kind werd yes. But they're asleep now 😅

[final raven]

@oak pendant good news yeah, arm bending oddly for my models when palm facing up and arm extending looks fine now

[oak pendant]

Nice!

[dusk anvil]

simply just push out an announcement with a hundred typos

[oak pendant]

That's what twitter is for

[final raven]

Will test fbt later when I can.

Was elbow clipping adjusted as well?

[dusk anvil]

but yeah if i remember correctly is it true that the ik beta will still remain around and network compatible when the avatar dynamics beta gets pushed out into live

[oak pendant]

Elbow clipping wasn't changed, but the previous bend direction issues could have interfered with it

[final raven]

Ah okay, yeah that may have been it~

[dusk anvil]

so basically when the dynamics update goes out the ik beta will still remain so we can have both AD and IK2

[oak pendant]

That's the plan

[dusk anvil]

sounds good

[flint bison]

I shall test and come cry in 5 minutes if elbows are still uga buga

[oak pendant]

Might be a slight delay as I work through merging it, hopefully I can have it out simultaneous with release though

[flint bison]

I assume this Made predicted elbow direction less dependent on rig setup means that elbows wont be as aggressive

[final raven]

ik-beta will be running long term and AD will be merged with it once AD is live, yeah~

[flint bison]

Mine just updated

[dusk anvil]

yo wait i just remembered these plushies start shipping like a week or so after my birthday

[oak pendant]

Hopefully, it should improve things. The wild elbows should be un-wilded

[dusk anvil]

no more helikopter helikopter

[oak pendant]

Now to just wait for the Canny request: "we need an option for helicopter elbows"

[dusk anvil]

someone make this it'd be funny

[oak pendant]

(j/k please don't request that... well unless you actually want it)

[dusk anvil]

there's gotta be someone out there that'll want it around just for shits and giggles

[final raven]

Although I am still not quite understanding the issue many others it seems with the way measure-by-arm scale works now.
#ik-2 message

[flint bison]

Alrighty

[dusk anvil]

i wonder if it's possible for vrchat to implement something that automatically guesses your height and applies the settings, going off of where your floor is set to be in steamvr or the oculus guardian.

just stand straight up, have the floor at well.. the floor, and press the "auto guess height" button or something

[final raven]

Oh before I forget, @oak pendant did you happen to catch the additional comments posted on this canny? (https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-legacyik-feet-ik-targets-previous-still-position-for-a-second)
Have been able to repro it myself effortlessly, and you mentioned not being able to.

[oak pendant]

Before 11711 measure by arm was a tighter (more accurate) fit. After 11711 it's the same as legacy. The issue is that some people liked the better fit, and a whole bunch of other people were confused by the change not even knowing scale was the issue, thinking IK broke or something. If we do implement the new scale factor it'd likely be a separate update after the release of IK2.0 I'm thinking. So many people just thought everything broke because the scale was different.

[flint bison]

I've only ever done geometrical IK & FABRIK so I've got a very uga buga understanding about more complicated systems:
It's better but it still feels like the elbows go from nothing to 100 way too fast in terms of rotation for the chest clipping fix. The rotations should probably start earlier and end later in order to not have these bizarre snap rotations where the whole elbow just zooms around the chest in half a second

[dusk anvil]

vrchat machine broke

[flint bison]

Haven't changed rig stuff since last video & same settings
user real height (real height set up), head locked

[oak pendant]

Yep, I'm aware of that one and the reasons why it happens. Just didn't prioritize for the quick update to fix elbows in 11712 so haven't changed anything there yet

[flint bison]

It feels very off in game, might look okay in the video but the snap happens too aggressively DaFeels

[final raven]

Ah okay I see. I haven't noticed much difference with the avatars I retested anyway, and what I could remember so I wasn't quite too sure.

[oak pendant]

Check your menu to make sure you're on build 11712 but also it would help to see in the bone visualization world. Then I can see rotations

[dusk anvil]

banana rotat e

[lyric peak]

I have the Ik-beta turned on in steam, but i dont seem to get this new menu

[dusk anvil]

what's your build number

[oak pendant]

Here's the link to that world in case you didn't have it: https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2

[flint bison]

yus

[final raven]

Hopefully we get some detailed documentation once this gets pushed to live so that even the most novice of users can understand the intricacies of this section right off the bat ^^;

[flint bison]

Wait, is vrchat using FABRIK for IK actually?
I can't think of many real time solving algorithms that look humanoid

[dusk anvil]

off topic for a second
will the vrchat docs like the cloning avatar doc ever be updated to have the new ui

[lyric peak]

no i mean, i dont see it

[oak pendant]

You'll have to be in VR to see those options

[lyric peak]

its just the normal non beta quick menu

[dusk anvil]

i can see the docs confusing people and them being like "i don't have that quick menu! i have the one that's actually good."

[final raven]

Oh right! Misinterpreted the last part of your sentence there ^^;

[oak pendant]

IK2.0 doesn't incorporate a FABRIK algorithm currently

[dusk anvil]

what does it use if you don't mind me asking

or is it like your own thing that you can't publicly disclose or something

[flint bison]

Build 11712

[oak pendant]

Ah I think I see what's happening there. The hand will take priority and allow you to escape the anti-clip if you fully pull on the arm. And also you may have a bit of back lean in your chest. The anti clip is determined by the chest orientation, so if the chest is leaning back, the under the chest area will protrude forward a bit more making the clip exclusion zone slightly larger

I may play around with a smoother escape from the anti-clip as the arm approaches full extension, but if it causes too much clipping near full extension I'd likely not do that

[flint bison]

D::

😔 the first IK beta worked well in regards to the clipping fix

[oak pendant]

Oh, interesting, ok that's useful info. I'll do some comparisons with that specific motion in relation to some of the recent changes to the anti-clip behavior

[oak pendant]

Well FABRIK is a general term for "forward-and-backward-reaching-inverse-kinematics" any algorithm that solves iteratively from both ends can be referred to that way. There's a bunch of different academic terms for various methodologies for handling IK and FABRIK is one of them.

[dusk anvil]

#open-beta-announcements

yaaay announcement

[thick rose]

well that was fast

[oak pendant]

In general legacy IK used FinalIK to do the solving. IK2.0 uses FinalIK as a kind of wrapper to handle arrays of bones flying around but under the hood it's largely using our own custom solving functions to produce the results. As to specifically how it works under the hood, unfortunately I can't give those kinds of details.

[raw shale]

non-pinging one this time around since it's a small update, but wanted to make sure we recorded it somewhere 😛

[dusk anvil]

cool beans

[oak pendant]

Thanks Spark!

[robust tangle]

Is best practice that the knees still have to be bent slightly on armature or can we make them perfectly straight

[devout current]

Oh so you can't post stuff in #open-beta-announcements? Interesting

[viscid inlet]

So i heard the beta would become and update near the end of the week or in summer, is this information accurate or just a rumor? I dont wont to get my hopes up too quickly

[dusk anvil]

likely a rumor

current eta is just "it'll be out when it's ready."

[viscid inlet]

Sounds about right lol

[robust tangle]

"Near the end of the week or in summer" is quite the speculation range. Though I'm confident it will be one, the other, or somewhere in between. 😄

[tawdry glen]

Avatar Dynamics is definitely going to release before IK 2 though.

[robust tangle]

That's a common expectation, yes

[prisma meadow]

thats what the devs said so ya

[steel geode]

Is that a script thing you can run on unity to do a limb check?

[zenith glacier]

look at the pins, the world is pinned there

[steel geode]

Oh thank you

[flint bison]

D:< ping

[steel geode]

Srry!

😆

[merry gale]

I really hope that's a "when we release the new scale factor" and not an "if". I know there are many others like me that always wanted to have their avatar fit like a glove to their proportions and it was always off because of the legacy scale factor. Now we had for two weeks of joy about it finally being so good (perhaps best VR IK) after years of tinkering with avatars and trying to find work arounds. I have a hard time to accept that it was just taken away from us again because people that don't even bother to check the scale setting are confused while trying a beta.
Using height measurement seems to produce different results from avatar to avatar, I guess because of shoe height etc. so that's not the best solution.
Using legacy arm scaling has the problem that you have to adjust your play space and than you hover over the ground when you sit down etc.
Wouldn't it make more sense to use the accurate scaling and tell people to check their height setting in the release notes?

[high nest]

I wonder if you could drop people into a calibration routine of some sort (even for 3pt) to determine arm length or height and reset the initial value

move your arms in a circle around you to finish setup, sort of thing

(possibly out of scope though)

[tame pewter]

inside tracking go nyroom

[high nest]

true, but you can't just run that all the time or you'll get a bad value when people put their controllers down

[oak pendant]

I'd personally like to have the new scale factor be default too if it was just for me. The group of people it negatively affected was very large though. There are a lot of people who uploaded/commissioned avatars iteratively fit to the old scale factor, who don't know how to rescale avatars. There are also a lot of people who dislike IRL arms reaching beyond avatar arms, something that's also more likely without torso leaning. Still even with that risk I was motivated to implement it initially for the sake of it being more accurate. However scale by height is now the most accurate option and scaling arms to fit that mode iteratively is much simpler than when arm length also affected world scale. So for the "we want accurate scale" use-case, I consider scale by height to satisfy that now, thus rendering the initial development purpose of the new arm scale factor unneeded. The only use case that remains is a smaller slice of people who don't actually want accurate scale. They don't want it height wise because their avatars have high heels while IRL they don't. That slice is small enough and enthusiast enough that it makes sense if they continue using custom User Real Height and playspace shifting. The end result of those is functionally identical to the tighter scale factor. This isn't a "no, never" response though. It's reiterating that "if" the new scale is implemented it's probably best to separate it from the initial release of IK2.0 because of confusion issues. Later on I'd like to see it, but it's much less necessary than previously because scale-by-height exists as the accurate scale method.

[harsh lagoon]

i'll check out this latest update tonight yesyes

[oak pendant]

I had considered this when previously targeting accurate arm scale, an issue with this though is the difference in shoulder rotation point, or do you mean using an arc to take an average value for arms to side and arms forward scaling? In general, keep in mind that the avatar's shoulder pivot rarely matches IRL

[mint abyss]

for fullbody Ik, I wonder if there should be "elbow locking" for whenever the avatar is laying in some position and its elbows are floating around the floor (keeping elbows realistically grounded) so people don't look like they're in akward poses when lying on their side on the floor.

I'm in the new IK beta but there's still the akwardless of laying down

if you want to "rest" on your arms while lying on your side it will look funky

[oak pendant]

If you can get screenshots of awkward elbow poses I might be able to address them. It's true though that what makes a natural pose when standing might look strange when laying down and one aspect of IK2.0 is that it should always provide the same pose regardless of the avatar's worldspace rotation

Also if* the pose worked better in legacy that's useful to know too

[mint abyss]

I know that there are already 2 public betas but when one (or both) of them close I'd be interested in testing one of the next betas (open or closed) for the new rendering technique, from what I can imagine it might be compatible with live depending on how VRChat handles unity versions.

but thats several months away

[high nest]

I'm just talking about measuring the user's real body here and using it as an input to set an initial height right when folks switch to the new IK for the first time

Or otherwise forcing people to reset their settings when they switch over

[merry gale]

Thanks for the reply and the good work for VR in general. That there are not many people who have heels on their avatars but not IRL I would estimate differently judging from my personal experience in the party scene, the number of female avatar pictures here or the number of thumbs up from strangers on my previous post within minutes. I thought so too that existing avatars that are made for the legacy scale factor are a reason, too. Therefor just toggle box or runtime parameter would be neat to switch between these methods.

[tacit kite]

First IK beta scaling was so good once I adjusted in game height to my real height. Every avatar I tried fit me so well and my arms actually locked where they would lock, no shoulder droop.

[dusk anvil]

inside out tracking go (guy falling down stairs sfx)

[oak pendant]

Yeah I'm definitely hearing the feedback that the new arm scale factor was also liked. (I'm glad to hear it worked, too. It was my attempt to make the old system more accurate, so good to hear it was working for that). Basically to make the case for it, it must show why scale-by-height is not solving the use case though. High heel avatars is definitely a valid one.

[merry gale]

Out of curiosity how is the height measured? I would have assumed from head bone to ankle bone.

[strong sundial]

I think the other use case besides heels I've been seeing is that it was a nice middle ground between legacy arm span and height based for just generally less proportional avatars.
Legacy arm-span just feels like it let's avatars be as un-proportional as they want. Arms may be accurate, but the feet aren't close at all and you aren't even close to the ground.
But height based scaling was just the other wild end of the spectrum. It would make arms feel as short as they possibly could just so feet would match. This worked well for some avatars, but just really didn't for others.
The beta arm span was just a nice middle ground between those options. Arms were a bit shorter but nothing unreasonable. And the feet got close enough to allow for rotation while still keeping the arms sane.

Some avatars just feel like they have to pick between two extremes right now. Either let your arms or let your legs be horrible. And it's frustrating when we already had a good middle ground before. It honestly feels like the beta arm span could fit as a third scaling method alongside the other two with just the use-case it provides that the others dont

[oak pendant]

It measures to align your viewball height to your user real height value, while the zero-origin floor of the avatar matches your vr calibrated floor height.

[coral cairn]

Most people aren't avatar creators. Height scaling works amazing if you are but if not you're stuck with what you can find, and the chances of that being good for scale by height are slim. Imo it's not a solution for your average player even if it is an amazing one for avatar creators and users who get commissions.

It's entirely possible the set of available Avatars gets slowly scaled better over time so they do work with height scaling, now that proportions there are more intuitive. In that context I see where you're coming from wanting to keep arm scaling the same to see where it goes, but what's happened so far is that base creators do what looks right for the character regardless of scaling and I don't personally think that will change.

[oak pendant]

Make sure if you're pulling for the newer scale factor that you've also voted in the canny for it. This is all good feedback.

[merry gale]

So if toe bones were assigned they could be used instead of the origin for humanoid avatars at least. But don't want to suggest too much, because I always hated that when I developed and people that don't know the code or coding made assumptions 😅

[coral cairn]

yee I'll make a post there once I've collected more thoughts 👍

[strong sundial]

It would probably be good for us to copy some of our points to the comments of the scale factor canny just to keep it easier to see and consider.

[oak pendant]

Here's the canny for it, looks like FizzyTaco made this one: https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-add-an-option-to-revert-scale-factor-to-previous-non-legacy-value

How about I merge the canny post into this one and make you all battle to the death! (j/k)

[strong sundial]

oh no

[oak pendant]

But yeah, this is good feedback so keeping it organized in that canny will help when trying to find solutions to things

[coral cairn]

That was a seperate bug wasn't it?

[oak pendant]

That was people noticing the new scale factor for arms is tighter

[strong sundial]

I think its the same. Someone else also responded saying that the new build fixed it

[oak pendant]

Not trying to shoot down the feedback you guys are trying to provide though. I was only joking. But yeah there's an other side to the scale factor stuff

[strong sundial]

Yes, there really is. It's why I would advocate for a toggle or additional scale setting. This update should accommodate as many avatars as possible without going full ik options just yet

[coral cairn]

On the first iteration there was definitely something else off with user height/scaling, which the second iteration fixed.
That canny was the only one talking about scaling though and now I'm arguing in both directions lol. (I care way too much about this)

[oak pendant]

It turns out there was no bug with height in the first iteration... I was convinced there was because so many people seemed so sure. It turns out it was just confusion for how scaling works

The "fix" to the height was to just add the scale to height option, for people who needed a way to guarantee floor height

[coral cairn]

Hm...
You sure?
Imscale with your new constants was off on the first iteration and wasn't on the second. I'm now confused.

[oak pendant]

Pretty sure, I might have fixed something without remembering it. But I specifically have the memory of digging in thinking "alright the bug should be here with height if there is one... no no, this is all correct." And so I started work on the scale to height option, because there really was no other way to supply perfect floor height to users

Oh, but there were a couple iterations of the arm scale

nothing to do with how floor height reacts to arm scale though

just different scale factors honing in on it

[strong sundial]

Yeah, both seemed to be kinda worked on at the same time. And solved kinda different issues. The most recent "beta" scale factor was the one that was pretty well received.
But it also made the arms still a bit shorter for some avatars. So it makes sense to have the legacy one as the default since it matches the arms. It's better for new/returning users with unproportional avatars. But the beta one ended up being good for enthusiasts with unproportional avatars that didnt find height scaling adequate

[coral cairn]

There were definitely behaviors that couldn't have been explained by a different scale factors - significant deviation in viewpoint position for example since no scaling configuration should have that being off when user height is set right. That's what I assumed the canny was talking about since it also had a knock off effect on scaling.

Aside from the most recent change have you tweaked the scaling factor publiclly?

Although given how canny works related issues get kinda mixed together anyway.

[oak pendant]

Hmm I'm not sure, of course there have been many changes over the course of the beta and I can't get into specifics that directly talk about source code etc. There are a few things that might possibly have affected it I suppose.

I think there has been one change to the scale factor during open beta besides the recent one reverting it to legacy

[coral cairn]

I can try dl'ing an old steam depot later and investigate more. I'm curious if it wasn't just some error in my avatar setup but my process shouldn't have had an error like that

[oak pendant]

Yeah, it's not something I'd specifically request feedback on because it's an old version, but if you find something interesting in a specific build feel free to post in here. (btw I have no idea on our policy for dling old depots so don't take this as either endorsement or discouragement I guess)

[lavish topaz]

uhhhh so the head rotation in desktop was reverted to the old way i see?

when u look all the way up or down u dont actually look all the way up or down in desktop for others interested y this was changed?

[oak pendant]

It was introduced accidently as a bug that was a consequence of optimizations elsewhere. Then the bug was fixed. I think the original design idea behind the limited head rotation was that desktop avatars can look pretty scary with full 180 degree vertical rotation.

[lavish topaz]

oooooh so it was a bug ok i thought it was intentional ty

[dusk anvil]

it is with great pleasure to inform you that i cannot reproduce the invite photo bug

instead of being a grey square it now works as normal

[grand lynx]

Height scale shrunk the world space and perceived avatar size to the point it felt awkward, the recent change to legacy on arm scales has caused arms to curl up. that new legacy scaling that was moved away from a day ago didnt have those issues. hope we can appease everyone.

Could use real height

testing right now with a bunch of mine

[dusk anvil]

i shouldnt find how im just standing there in this image so funny

really went " 🧍‍♂️ "

[final moss]

Happens in all avatars

[oak pendant]

It would make sense if this is caused by the base layer's crouch or prone pose. Does this issue have a canny post? If can remember to test later I can try testing on an avatar that both has and doesn't have the default crouch and prone activating under the IK

If you have avatars with custom locomotion layers you could also test on them to see if the issue goes away with a custom locomotion controller

[final moss]

Happens no matter how high im up

Also still have toe bending I just noticed...

[oak pendant]

Oh, if you playscape drag up you mean? And ah, the toe bend was intended to have been fixed. I couldn't see it in my own testing. Are you sure you have an avatar uploaded with nothing in the locomotion layer slot?

So it uses the default I mean

[final moss]

I use an edit of default to disable falling in fbt

[oak pendant]

Your edit would then have the old behavior still baked in

[final moss]

But that foot issue with one being higher up has always been from my experience...

[oak pendant]

Does it also happen on the live build for you?

[final moss]

It happens as long as I can even remember using fbt, before ik 2.0

Only recently realized that I dont seem to be the only one affected

[oak pendant]

Interesting, I haven't seen it myself but I'll keep an eye out for it. If you have a canny up it'll help collect more data on in what situations it happens

[final moss]

Imma make one later then

[oak pendant]

Could be IK related, could be base animation related, could be avatar rig related, could even be vr hardware or tracking driver related. Thanks yeah, figuring out when it does and doesn't happen and what's in common is the first step (no pun intended)

[final moss]

Its been on most models ive used so animation or rig would be odd

Ill try some avatars

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I'd say try a super wide variety including public row avatars etc

if it's on all of them then unlikely to be custom animator related, but could be related to the default crouch still because the left foot is back in that pose

[final moss]

It doesnt fix when playspacing up unlike toe

[oak pendant]

I'd be surprised though. Bones not directly controlled by the IK especially those past the end of the chain might make it through (like toes) but directly controlled ones like the foot should stay in place

yeah if playspacing up doesn't change, then it's not likely to be the animator

wide sample of avatars (not just one base type) would help rule out rig

[final moss]

will do

[oak pendant]

thanks for testing, and yeah keep a record of it on canny if possible

[tiny token]

Does scaling factor mean the assumed wingspan based on a height?

[wooden lion]

elbow bending is pretty screwed up now

i can't sit and rest my hands on my lap without one elbow bending up like i'm breaking my arm

[final raven]

@oak pendant putting a hand on back of opposite shoulder does this for example. I'll get a video in bone position world later when I can~

I think a lot of it comes down to arm clipping needing more tuning~

[tiny token]

Why not change the height setting to “arm span” when using arm scaling?

[mild nimbus]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/1171-2-bug-tracker-balls-do-not-go-away-after-swapping-back-from-selecting-an-av

minor bug but a funny one

[harsh lagoon]

oh god i just noticed this too lol

[magic wigeon]

so i see on right foot is twist

[harsh lagoon]

yeah biggest issue i had today was if i stick my arm straight out and downwards and stretch it out, my upper arm jutted out and moved really wrongly. Also, when i was doing the thing from before when i stick my palms out and flex my hands downwards, it wasnt broken like yesterday but it didnt feel right at all, like my upper arms felt like they were being magnetized to my torso

[devout current]

hm idk I have to say that from the small testing I did yesterday, I'm not so big of an fan with the changes to the arm IK

But I have to test it out a bit more today to say something for sure.

[fiery plinth]

I got asked if I had elbow trackers while in 6 point, was like nope just in the ik-2 beta wee

[devout current]

xD

[flint bison]

laying down elbow uga buga

[ripe mauve]

what is this effect in the ik beta? it happens on all avatars and only in the ik beta branch, not release. Also happens in both new ik and legacy settings, but is much more pronounced in legacy mode. its very unpleasant.

[final raven]

https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-legacyik-feet-ik-targets-previous-still-position-for-a-second

[oak pendant]

Ah thanks Salbug was about to post that.

[final raven]

Although never experienced that on the beta ik

only legacy

[ripe mauve]

its on default avatars too, and in every world i've visited, not a custom locomotion controller thing

[final raven]

Yeah, it's affected every avatar I tried while in 'Legacy Mode'

[oak pendant]

Yeah that one's known. It's kind of working as intended with beta mode toggled on. What you're noticing is a faster triggering of the auto foot placement. People complained (can't find the canny right now) that feet would float and drift without autoplacement for a few seconds when stopping locomotion. The snap to auto placement is somewhat intended. But this new quicker activation doesn't play well with legacy at the moment because legacy doesn't handle the fast blending. Legacy should actually have the slower activation still (because legacy should always be old behavior) but I didn't gate the new behavior behind the legacy toggle properly, so that's a bug for what's appearing in legacy

[ripe mauve]

oh, yeah just saw that foot placement change. kinda preferred the old way lol

[oak pendant]

Old way had your feet slide on the ground for about 1.5 seconds or so after coming out of a locomotion state

[mystic urchin]

I hated the delay because it cause my knees in 3 point to follow my head direction until foot step kicked in

[oak pendant]

It needs further tuning probably though

because right now it doesn't handle standing up quickly from a crouch well

[mystic urchin]

I think it needs a small blend in time, looks too snappy.

[oak pendant]

it needs to blend slower if you're crouching and faster if you're standing

[mystic urchin]

The public alien avatar does it if you jump > move (left/right) > land

[oak pendant]

Yeah, stand from land, and stand from crouch needs a slower blend

even if you stand straight and jump you can see the feet extend from some up position down to the ground because it's playing the landing animation while auto foot placement is also active

[final raven]

Beta IK

[oak pendant]

In the initial pass I just set it to activate faster, but it needs tuning based on states like crouching, or not grounded etc

[final raven]

Live (aka Legacy)

Much better now that this has been fixed, such a small change, but one that does add a lot in the end~

Also damn, my upload speed

[oak pendant]

I was actually spending quite a bit of time on all the intricacies of animation blending and tuning up issues people had with old legacy behavior as well as new requirements to fix blending and animation things that broke due to IK2.0 coming in with different implementation of similar things.

Thus the last update had a big chunk if tiny animation related changes and took a long time

But I'm going to try to focus the next set of stuff on feature implementation a bit more I think

over the long beta things will likely break and break again, so polishing to perfection might end up being wasted effort if a feature change requires it to be redone

Though, I do want to address the elbow avoidance looking worse in this current iteration compared to 2 updates ago

But soon, 8+ tracker behavior needs a bit of work. And also there's calibration saving that's just sitting there un implemented while I polish animation blending etc

Keep posting this stuff on canny though, really really helpful to get these videos etc that show exactly what's off

[final raven]

Ah yeah, I assume you caught my video earlier with the elbow going through my head~?

[oak pendant]

Oh yeah, so that's a thing I was aware of but was kind of waiting to see if anyone would complain

The issue is, the pose is actually correct if you put your hand there by relaxing with your arm behind your head

[final raven]

I'll usually be the first to notice 😉

Oh? I'll have to remember that later then when I get back into VR~

[oak pendant]

So if that pose is fixed to stay in front no matter how far behind your shoulder you put your hand... then when you relax with your arm behind your head and approach the opposite shoulder, it would then pop in front while youre arm remains behind

[final raven]

Oh so arm behind your head instead of across your chest?

I see~

[oak pendant]

Yeah so imagine you were like scratching the back of your head, then relax to lean back on your elbow behind your head

In that case, the pose is actually correct

So when they hand is way back there, the elbow should be doing what it does when it popped there

problem is if your avatar's shoulders are further forward than your IRL shoulders, it might be too easy to get your controller behind the avatar shoulders and have it pop around

I may implement further countermeasures to try to determine what pose you're in. But countermeasures require relative position info. And I've already fallen in to the trap too many times of assuming a rig's bone orientations give accurate axis info. Of course I can reconstruct correct axis orientation based on the bone chain etc ignoring the original rigged axis directions, but yeah... at least for now, the expected pose there is that the elbow goes behind the head.

If you reach to the opposite shoulder from behind and rest your hand there the rotation of the hand itself in space doesn't really change so much between reaching from in front or behind, so hard to judge from that data

I've got some ideas for countermeasures though. But gotta be careful about talking too much about all the tricks and solutions IK2.0 uses. There's a grey zone between info needed to help people create avatars and what's VRChat's proprietary info.

[final raven]

Ah yeah, make sense. I can see how it'd be tough to judge for the IK to guess in situations like that~

[oak pendant]

Yeah, it's not impossible but the more clever you try to make the system, the more annoying it is when it guesses wrong. At least the pop behind current behavior makes sense. If there's a separate system to judge that sometimes fails it might seem very arbitrary and frustrating

I've still got some ideas though. The beta feedback here has been great for finding if the solutions work out or someone finds an important pose that is ruined by it

[final raven]

Glad I could help out as well~

IK 2.0 has definitely given me more of an urge to get in fbt every session instead of lazying around in 3pt. :v

[oak pendant]

Yay, yeah I'm glad the beta can be network compatible so people can just use it in their casual time.

[final raven]

The biggest plus for me is the immense increase in usability every avatar has gained out of this. I spent so much time when measure-by-height was added going to old avatar worlds I used to frequent back in the day and just being flabbergasted as just about every avatar I tried out just fit really well now in FBT as well as correcting most rig hacks any would utilize.

[tardy galleon]

Some feedback on IK2 after trying it on and off between patches. I would stay on IK2 if it wasn't for those damn knees, everything else seems really good ;-;

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/knees-too-prone-to-open-when-laying-on-the-side

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I feel like measure-by-height was a pretty big win there. I know there are still people stick in between measure by height and the old measure by arm scale that don't have the use case they want. I'm still paying attention to feedback there too.

[oak pendant]

Were you using a custom IKPose controller to get your knees to default to a more closed angle?

[tardy galleon]

No custom IKPose, no. I do use custom locomotion however

[robust tangle]

You are a crazy minority though... the slow footstep activation has been my #2 biggest annoyence since it's first appearence over a year ago! So happy to see it finally gone

lots notice it, it looked sloppy

[tardy galleon]

In legacy before the beta I used to make my height down to like 160cm on most avatars but it works just fine with measure by height in beta as well when using legacy IK. IK2 on multiple avatars is the only case where I cannot close my legs

[final raven]

Oh yeah~ For me personally I've been stuck in measure-by-height combined with Lock-All and it all just felt really nice so far~

[oak pendant]

Ok, yeah there has been a bit of discussion that the knee orientation isn't perfect or that people preferred the legacy handling. There are some very slight differences to how it's handled. I'll check out this pose if I can remember next time I'm testing (helps that it's in canny to get me to remember)

[final raven]

Whoop, meant to disable that ping :v

[oak pendant]

For accurate comparison, now that measure-by-arms is the same as legacy scale. It'd be best if you compare at same user real height setting in measure by arms mode, and swap between legacy and beta ik comparing knee orientation.

Also nice legwarmers!

I spent a long time in getting the cloth sim right on mine, but yours look very natural

[tardy galleon]

oo, you did great! I wish I could say I made mine but I got them from a really nice creator on Booth c:

but yeah, I could go and try out the Measure by arms right now to see how that works out!

[oak pendant]

Thanks, if you find anything make sure to keep it recorded in your canny post too

[tardy galleon]

yess, I will update ^^
Thank you for answering it so fast!

[dusk anvil]

kung got drip

[tardy galleon]

big true!

[oak pendant]

😱

[final raven]

[oak pendant]

But actually I don't mind so much if people leave the @ on when replying to specific issues in here.

But it's technically against the rules I suppose. I personally don't care if it's directly useful info for my work

[final raven]

I feel that rule in this case with this channel is definitely more so up to the team member's discretion~

[oak pendant]

I for sure don't enjoy it when people go down the list of all team members @ ing us all in #vrchat-general-1 to report something like a ToS violation that should be sent in via a ticket instead though

[dusk anvil]

also yeah the funny arms thing no longer happens on my avatar since the patch yay

that's what im calling it now
the funny arms thing

[robust tangle]

Was the most recent patch more than just a revert? Because I like them even better than (before funny arms)

Probably placebo

[oak pendant]

Nah, not placebo, it was more than a revert. Revert would have lost the hands-on-hip elbows out pose support

[final raven]

You talking about how in the last patch the ability to "chicken dance" in 3pt / fbt was even more pronounced?

[oak pendant]

It was another method to solve things

(which is now causing issues with snappy elbows when reaching forward into the elbow anti clip zone)

[final raven]

I personally prefer when there's less movement in the elbows when bending your wrists back and forth~

[oak pendant]

It's currently somewhere in between build 11711 and build 11702 but using a different method

however hands-on-hips pose should be fully as supported as in 11711

[robust tangle]

having both hands over your heart or the base of your neck. Arms drop to sides and it looks more natural than before. (3pt)

[final raven]

Yeah I noticed that as well~

[oak pendant]

Yeah this was intentional, glad you noticed/like it

hopefully it doesn't get worse when I try to address the snappy elbows. The anti clip behavior will have more iteration on it to come

[final raven]

How does the arm clip prevention work if you can say without having to go into confidential detail of course?

[oak pendant]

I can say it's not just a capsule collider or anything like that. It's a lot of vector math

[final raven]

Ah gotcha

[tardy galleon]

what is that IK test world people in here keep using? to show bone orientations

[oak pendant]

https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2

It's in the pins if you lose it later

[tardy galleon]

aa, thank you! I should have read them properly 🙏

[oak pendant]

Kurotori (the creator)'s the real MVP 😎

This world has been really helpful

[tardy galleon]

I can imagine!

[final raven]

Now I just need a test world with an actual overlay of humanoid bones that overlays on top of your rig's bones positions giving even more of an in-sight without having to go to the rig settings in Unity.

[high nest]

shouldn't be too hard to make. I've done something similar for my attach-to-me prefab, but it only shows one at a time

[oak pendant]

That test world only shows humanoid bones

Or you mean you'd rather see it as bone-length geometry?

[final raven]

Yeah a friend and I were actually discussing that earlier this past night like, something like how your prefab shows the bones basically but for the entire skeleton.

Basically, being able to view your full rig in-game

without having to open blender or anything

I feel like that would help ten fold with ik-beta testing

and just avatar testing in general really.

[high nest]

one thing I'll note is when I created that asset, I chose the bone-axis-rotation vector fairly arbitrarily. It just uses a look-at quaternion to place the bone pointing to its next child

the main problem I faced with that display is that, depending on the 3d software in use, the bone rotation can be fairly arbitrary - there's no single rule for which axis points "down" the bone (or indeed, if any local axis points down the bone)

so it's not actually rendering the bone axis, but rather the direction to the next child bone. Which is maybe okay, but the problem then is figuring out which direction it's twisted in

which for my purposes didn't matter too much so I just made it mostly point in a consistent direction to avoid constant movement

[tardy galleon]

I've updated the post with better pictures! Arm measuring is better since it's at least possible to close the legs if clench them together, but it still just doesn't work when I have my legs rested sadly

[oak pendant]

👍 Thanks for updating with the added info

[tardy galleon]

No problem! Just hope it's useful ^^

[high nest]

I've also noticed a tendancy towards legs opening in a sitting pose as well

[final raven]

Same as well actually. I tend to sit with one leg down, and the other folded with my foot resting against the side of the other's knee and I noticed the knee of the folded leg is lower then my IRL knee.

Hmm, lemme see if I can ms paint a mock up real quick

So when viewing me from straight forward, Black lines are IRL leg positions, Red lines are avatar leg positions

[oak pendant]

That would imply that your avatar's legs are more closed than IRL though. Maybe I'm not understanding the combination of your description and the image though

[final raven]

Maybe I could've been more descriptive yeah

Hmmm, So basically, the knee of my left leg as well as the general angle of my left leg (horizontal line) is lower compared to my IRL left leg which is more straight and basically at a perfect 90-degree angle compared to my right leg.

I'll be getting in VR here at the end of the hour, I'll see if I can get a good image to better demonstrate what I mean then~

[oak pendant]

Yeah, same thing as Riley did, if you can use same User Real Height and set to scale by arms and swap between legacy and beta in the bone viewing world and show the differences and maybe add notes to the images, that would help

[mint abyss]

Could the new VRIK be built to combat things like tracking jitter, if not already?
whenever things such as trackers experience a sudden change in velocity it tends to oscillate back and forth because of the way trackers are attached to the player's body.

Also, in rare instances, VRChat legs will jitter between two locations every frame, causing them to appear to be in two locations at once, this issue appears occasionally, I think I could log it and record it.

I'm not quite sure if its related to VRC however, that's what I need to check.

VRChat fullbody motion smoothing and jitter reduction (on clientside), I don't think that would be a wise idea because that would mean input latency, but such a feature would be great for media created by fullbody users.

[oak pendant]

I have some plans to experiment with things related to this, currently it's only planned for experimenting not planned for implementation. May not ever reach a beta or release. I was going to begin taking a look after IK2.0's release. Though things could shift depending on length of beta or release timing of AD etc. This is very much not a promise to implement such a change, gotta be careful how things like this are phrased.

[mint abyss]

I feel like what experimentations you're talking of would be helpful to making fullbody-tracking look very appealing and smooth to users who don't have it, e.g. implementations to make the IK as realistic and smooth as possible while being light on computation

[oak pendant]

The tracker jiggle problem is mostly an issue for local first person perspective. The update rate for NetIK is usually just in the range of barely below the usual resonance frequency of a tracker wiggling following a hard impact.

[final raven]

Tracking jitter... you talking about that jitter that's very visible when doing harsh movements/impacts that's visible locally but is very well masked remotely due to IK interpolation?

Ah okay nvm

[mint abyss]

oh, that, I was thinking of that

tracking interpolation

[oak pendant]

But this is pre-experimental stage of a not-promised thing so I probably shouldn't really dig into details here

[final raven]

And yeah I do agree. Somehow implementing tracking interpolation on the clientside would probably not feel great and would most likely give one a sense of movement latency, if that's a correct way to phrase it.

[robust tangle]

I wish I had your problem. I always have "knock knees", not from IK-beta, just since always, and I don't know how to avoid it.

[mint abyss]

I don't know if I'm mentally insane, but what if the vrchat cat was an interactable UI cat that sat around, slept, purred, and went from parts of the UI?

https://feedback.vrchat.com/feature-requests/p/vrcat-should-be-a-ui-interactive-pet-that-does-cat-things
off topic, but this would be wild

[robust tangle]

#feature-requests :p

[tame pewter]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/feature-requests/p/1142-feedback-clicking-vrcat-enough-should-make-it-fall-down

[vital inlet]

question
if i make a avatar with the beta can i upgrade to full realease when its out?

or will i have to start over

[ripe mauve]

yeah, i found the locomotion to IK feet transition to be perfect on the older iteration, sometime around the last IK update iirc a year ago
but the very new one from today is a bit too sharp for me

i guess i just got used to the slow one

[robust tangle]

You slide around after you stop walking it honestly looks bad but 😬

Do you play on desktop? Because you can’t notice the problem on desktop

But if you move around in real life at all after you stop locomotion you just glide around

[ripe mauve]

i play fbt most of the time, so i don't see it at all

but i gotta test stuff in 3 point

[robust tangle]

Yeah, the problem is not noticeable in fullbody

But for 3pt, which is most people, it has been terrible for like a year until now. This change was very long wanted

[final raven]

Should be fine I believe once AD is pushed to live.
Also a question better suited for #open-beta-discussion since that's the channel to go to for Avatar Dynamics. This one is for the IK Beta.

[vital inlet]

uhh ok
sorry im still new here

thank you for the help

[fossil oriole]

is there a way to join the beta on quest?

[tawdry glen]

The IK 2 beta is not available on Quest.

Besides, I wouldn't recommend doing anything related to beta versions on Quest, it's a pain to get back to the live version if you want out before it releases.

[fossil oriole]

dang

[oak pendant]

Heya, probably a good idea to edit your message to not list things out so directly. As you note there are some rules about that stuff 😅

[half cradle]

Dang

[craggy abyss]

where can i find the ik 2.0 to test

[raw wadi]

I̶̡͛n̶͚͋ ̷̯̄s̷͍̑ţ̵̒e̵̳͆ạ̸͒m̷̬͊,̶͉̽ ̸̻̓r̸͕͐i̴͚̋ĝ̵̲h̶͖̕t̸͇͆ ̶̼̚c̶͎̀l̴̠͝i̴̙͊c̷̃͜k̸͙͝ ̶͈̍t̴̠̃ĥ̷̠e̷͈̚ ̷̦̕V̷̛͍R̶̜̄C̷̯̆ĥ̶̰à̶͔t̴̹̔,̴̝̆ ̴̧́p̶̝͝ŕ̵̪o̷̢̓p̷̖͋r̶̹̕ȇ̵̜t̶̬̀i̶͔̊e̸͇͌s̶̡͑ ̵͓͋ẗ̷͓h̵̰͋e̵̥̒n̶̹̊ ̸̈betas, chose ik-beta

[craggy abyss]

Okag

[empty aspen]

whats the code?

[rustic berry]

what code?

there's no code for the beta

[empty aspen]

its asking me for a code?

[bleak anvil]

Just click the drop down no need for a code.

[gaunt cypress]

so everyone rigging upper chest bones now ?

[rustic berry]

it's a good idea yes

[final raven]

Yeah uhhhhh, probably not a good idea to just outright talk and/or namedrop what "certain things" you use(d), especially here.

[vital inlet]

Its asking me for a code and idk what to do

[ripe mauve]

roger roger, i should probably reread the rules

[loud patio]

No it's not. Just select the beta and close the window

[real bane]

Initial testing with the adjusted IK is it is a little better other than when you put your arms in front of you it bends the elbow while in IRL, the arms are straight. I will check on other avatars if they behave the same.

[upbeat dew]

Hello, apologies if the question feels dumb, I looked through many messages from this channel before asking.
I just tried this beta and so far it's such an improvement!! However, I'm confused at the "lock" feature (allowing to lock the hip, the head, or both). What exactly does it do?

[high nest]

Your avatar is probably not exactly the same size/proportions as your real body, and your trackers aren't exactly on your joints. So it's impossible to make your avatar exactly match your movements; something has to give. The lock setting tells VRC to make your hip/head/both exactly match - and as a result it pushes this drift in various places. Lock hip pushes the drift to the head, lock head pushes it to the hip, lock both pushes it to the spine.

[upbeat dew]

Ohhh, that makes sense!! Thank you for the clear explanation.

Considering I'm using owoTrack for tracking, I probably want to use head locking then, since the headset is much more trustworthy than the trackers, haha

[high nest]

I'd recommend just experimenting with them all and seeing what works

results will depend on your tracking method, rig setup, posture, etc...

with tundra trackers I'm usually doing lock head but I'll switch into lock hip sometimes when exercising

[robust tangle]

lock head will remove all head drift, and make sure other people are always looking exactly at your view position. It's nice

waving around in front of a mirror won't look weird since your head stays locked like you'd expect

If you have a perfectly scaled avatar you can enable lock both AKA Kung Mode, but it won't have good results for most random avatars

[high nest]

it's very nice to have options here now

one size does not fit all

[robust tangle]

yeah having all three modes is great

lock hip admitedly usually looks better for other people

but they may not look exactly at your view if they see your head a bit higher

[past spruce]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/feature-requests/p/full-body-tracking-problems - not too sure if I should be duplicating one point from this request to a new post in IK 2.0 section, but I would want to see this addressed in new IK:

The thigh should not be rotating 1:1 with the ankle. This has never been how the human body works. Most characters are not weight painted for such abusive twisting in the hip.

[robust tangle]

Officially the category is only for bugs that exist only in this branch and not in live, But under the circumstances I guess you could file the duplicate as feedback, just be sure to mention that it is current live behavior as well and not a regression.

[subtle arrow]

I'm trying to imagine in my head what is meant by the thigh and ankle rotating 1:1. meaning straight leg condition the thigh bone rotating the same amount as the ankle or something different?

[robust tangle]

Knees cannot twist at all they are a hinge joint I am guessing he wants most of the angular movement to be handled by the ankles instead of hip twist. It may be the case that models are not weight painted properly for it, but that is indeed how humans move, our upper legs rotate. A lot.

[past spruce]

It's more like 60% on ankle joint and 40% on upper leg - hip joint.

[robust tangle]

Upper legs actually have far more twist mobility than ankles. (In real life)

[subtle arrow]

Isn't that fixed by a twist bone in the thigh? Though i guess quest can't use that option. Because yea that is what i was thinking

[past spruce]

I have yet to see a model that uses twist bones on knees though.

These are popular on wrists or elbows, but not anywhere on lower body from what I can tell.

[subtle arrow]

There are models with "butt" twist bones and the upper legs

[past spruce]

And from what I remember aren't twist bones a hindrance with new IK now?

On arms at least.

[robust tangle]

Personally I wouldn’t let how people weight paint their models drive how IK is calculated, IK should bend realistically plausible like a human and people can learn to deform it properly

[subtle arrow]

They should never be. they just fix the fact that our forearms twist internally and aren't a single bone. The thigh area is just to make weight painting easier

The other way is making the forearm with 2 bones so there is more twist as the wrist rotates

[robust tangle]

Hips twist a lot, if the model breaks it needs to be painted better, basically

We should be going with what feels like one to one motion with real life

[past spruce]

I don't think hip can twist 90 degrees though...

[robust tangle]

Actually they have a range of like 160

Try it

[past spruce]

Like if you stand straight and rotate one of your feet 90 degrees (so they form an L shape), how much of that rotation is handled by knee and by upper leg - hip joint.

[robust tangle]

Well zero is handled by your knee unless you’re dislocating it :)

[past spruce]

But you will see your knee rotating at around half the rate of your foot still.

As in where it will be pointing.

Hmm... I guess twist bones would make more sense here.🤔

[subtle arrow]

To bring this back to IK, I would have to do math or someone else can comment: If you don't enforce the constraint that the ankle and Knee line up there is a chance you could get an indeterminate system for the IK solver on the legs without knee trackers. Also I need to get in the game to see how it handles extreme outward rotation again.

This is bringing back memories of doing the IK solver for robotic arms with multiple joints. so many singularities and under constrained systems

[dusk anvil]

ive dislocated both my kneecaps once, can confirm.

[robust tangle]

Yeah don’t move it that way

[dusk anvil]

you can't tell me what to do!
(jump cut to me being driven to the hospital)

[subtle arrow]

actually I'm curious what constraint they use. A foot and hip fixed in space have infinite solutions for the thigh/lower leg bone position. they form a triangle (points at the joints: Ankle, Hip, Knee) where you can rotate about the Ankle-Hip line and still have a "valid" solution. so the system has to constrain it to the ankle angle.

What proportion of the rotation do you think would look more natural?

[dusk anvil]

this beta is fueling my interest into getting full body tracking.

[raw wadi]

Only way to negate this issue is to have at least the hip and feet set to animation but it still doesn't look good https://i.gyazo.com/11f93e33d19b1deb78d66a5ca35dde77.gif

https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-legacyik-feet-ik-targets-previous-still-position-for-a-second

Bypassing the land animation to go strait to the walk have a better result

https://i.gyazo.com/8c877d9dd9bff9e761a59ff871ecaef5.gif

When the user give no input, it look like the Head take priority for the hip /head placement. As you can see the body go up to match the view point.

https://i.gyazo.com/44df1e335869e2f70c21b9dbde382db7.gif

It's when doing this that is the hip/feet get drag behind on avatar that have them set to tracking on the current beta.

An example of when a world move a player but the hip and feet are still tracking.

[cyan flume]

Sorry it took so long, heres a video demonstrating the issue i couldnt explain a few days ago.

[final sphinx]

@oak pendant sorry for the ping, but what is causing arm(+elbow) tracking to die when you playspacemove through colliders with disabled locomotion via av3? I reported this on the canny 2w ago but didnt get a response yet. I kinda not like to see noclipping die like this and its an important feature to use my arms elbows (and hands) while performing this technique as thats the only way i have as a vanilla user to pull this off. It doesnt happen in live and afaik didnt happen in rhe v first public ik2 beta build.

[oak pendant]

Could you link the canny again?

I remember seeing it, but I want to take another look

[final sphinx]

It wasnt really detailed, didnt include an example vid (i only posted one here somewhere) or reproduction steps and also wasnt sure it always happened at that time

[oak pendant]

Ah ok, I think there was a similar one with an example video, I just wanted to double check it was the same issue.

[final sphinx]

Heres the vid #ik-2 message

Lemme search the canny

[oak pendant]

I believe this would have happened on live if you were to do it in 3pt tracking

[final sphinx]

Nah that just freezes your legs

like make them point into the direction where you disabled loco

Arm tracking would still be usable

but thats judt a minor issue affecting like 0.2% of the playerbase

I only have seen like one other person even knowing bout this technique but it would still be sad to see it destroyed, its always sad when vrc updates eat v useful features imo (a lil bit unrelated but the last bug thats gone now was the selection bubble ghost that was useful for keeping tracks of players in maps without nametags/tagging of players for "locomotion checks")

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/noclipping-via-ovra-sometimes-turns-arms-into-desktop-arms-once-per-world thats the one, its a horribly formatted bugreport but it should bring the point

[oak pendant]

Ok thanks for linking

[cyan flume]

no, https://i.imgur.com/2pBqObp.png

I am using a managerie of avatars here (one is sdk2, one is a recent quest compatible, and another i dunno) but i have this issue regardless of what avatar I use

switching between legacy and Ik2 beta may be part of what triggers it

I should probably try replicating this without using the brown hair avatar at all to be certain

but I dont really wanna go bug hunting if this is actually an intended feature like others have suggested

I'm jut not sure why this seemingly random issue would be purposefull

[toxic cobalt]

hey! I noticed some pretty funky things with the ik beta when in half body, mostly to do with the way legs and hips move. I'm not really familiar with how to report this behavior the most effectively so I'll just list it here in the hopes of moving it into the canny or having someone else do it too.

Basically when in halfbody on legacy ik and you move, the hips will rotate in the opposite direction before stopping, proportional to the distance you moved. (So walking a short distance to the right, will cause the hips and legs to twitch to the left, a longer distance will cause the hips and legs to twitch further, going off the floor even) This happened both with my friend in halfbody and me who has trackers connected but had fbt toggled off. We also tried several worlds, including one that had been updated the day before to the same behavior.

In Beta IK, the leg and hip behavior isnt quite so janky but if you stop suddenly there is an odd stutter? Happens across multiple avatars, both sdk 2 and sdk3 with humanoid body type. The best way to describe the stutter is when you move and suddenly stop, there is a thigh bone and below rotation for a brief moment?

Let me know if theres a way i can make this less janky for posting on the canny, or feel free to reproduce yourself!

In any case, really love the new beta! I told my friend about it and we LOVE the extra level of immersion from being able to fix the armspan regardless of avatar proportions!

In particular, the full body fixes have been so wonderful for me. I have an Oculus + Vive Trackers setup so I thought maybe the strange disconnect and extra dysmorphia I was feeling was because i didnt have a valve or vive...It was distressing to be in full body and look in the mirror at times. But this is a real game changer and I finally feel better with my trackers and less weird. Looking forward to more!

[icy ravine]

but how

[vital inlet]

would it be posible if the full body callibration could be saved so if you change avatar that it aplies it to the new avatar ?

[lethal light]

I believe they are working on/interested in this
Don't quote me, but I think Kung said they would work on this later as there is a lot more pressing issues to work out that need to be tested, whereas this should be fairly easy to implement and would not need extensive testing

[carmine gate]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/save-ik-between-changing-avatars right here

already marked as planned

[lavish glade]

Well, after some looking into my weird issues, I can confirm that it's not the IK Beta at fault here, it was the colliders that were generated on my body for interactions. There was some odd clipping issues with them crossing into each other, so I tried to shrink down the colliders to conform to the body more tightly. Also did that "is Trigger" change to all of 'em to see if that helps

[final raven]

Kung has mentioned that calibration saving is on his to-do list, just a bit further down right now though.

[lavish glade]

Ah, priorities

[final raven]

it was the colliders that were generated on my body for interactions.

Wait, are you talking about Avatar Dynamics?

[lavish glade]

No, this is from Live/IK Beta

[final raven]

Huh, because that was the impression I got from that quote right there

[lavish glade]

A plugin I installed on the avatar auto-generated Unity colliders for it that were kinda bigger than the avatar mesh

[final raven]

Huh, okay.

[nimble storm]

So I figured out the root cause of this issue, and I was able to replicate it too: it turns out, if I launch "OVR Advanced Settings" before logging into vrchat, these phantom controllers will show up like this, but if I launch VRchat first and OVR second then this issue does not happen. Additionally, this issue only happens when I'm using my valve index plus my 3 Vive trackers

So if I launch OVR advanced settings without using my vive trackers, or if I launch vrchat before OVR settings while using my trackers, then this doesn't happen

[harsh lagoon]

havent been a fan of the way my body throws itself to the direction we look in

shoulders sometimes end up thrown sideways too

[tame pewter]

should use stream camera to have a stationary camera angle

[harsh lagoon]

ah fair

lemme try again

arms doing a weird, and i personally dont remember the body moving towards the direction you faced so much

also what i talked about earlier too, when bringing arms forward they do this, happens when standing or crouched

[tame pewter]

feels like desktop

you can swap between LegacyIK and BetaIK, does it occur on both?

pretty sure thats normal, just maybe a bit exaggerated with BetaIK..?

[harsh lagoon]

definitely new

without a doubt

this with legacy

[prisma meadow]

I have a pretty well proportioned avatar, but when i calibrate with height scale and both locked while looking straight my spine gets all bent, But if i calibrate when looking down my avatar fixes itself and looks normal. is anyone else experiencing anything similar

[lethal light]

I am pretty sure this is due to the chest pointing backwards.
Basically, a lot of avatars' rigs have the hips, spine (and legs) straight up and down, but angle the chest backwards with a straight neck and head. This is bad because the new IK expects a straight chest unlike the old ik.

I can get a photo if you would like a visual

[prisma meadow]

a photo would be good

[lethal light]

one sec

good armature

[tame pewter]

so everything straight as possible is best with new ik?

[lethal light]

yep

[prisma meadow]

still want knees a bit bent though right?

[lethal light]

I believe so, although I have mine bent an imperceptible amount and it seems to work fine

few more sec for the bad armature pic

[prisma meadow]

ya thats what mine looked like

[lethal light]

pretty sure the new IK attempts to pull the head forward to correct for it not being straight up and down

[tame pewter]

mm

[lethal light]

I think at some point the docs should house a lot of this info, but it seems that is not a priority at this moment

[prisma meadow]

whats a good way to correct this? should i just scale all the bones in the y axis in edit mode? or would pose mode work better?

[lethal light]

depends on your avatar. If there is enough room, you can just move the bones in edit mode.
If yours is like NotAKid's, pose mode might work better, although with pose mode, the child bones are also going to move

which you have to be careful of, you could also move the bones in edit mode and use a lattice to move the mesh

[tame pewter]

already did that

bruh

gonna straighten out the head bone once applied pose mode changes

then will compare with original rig later

[lethal light]

yep, seems to work good

[tame pewter]

i guess that makes doing eye tracking the slighest bit easier..

eye bones are easier to align with the head bones angle if the head bone is straight upward

hurts my brain though to not have a curved spine after working on source engine models for so long

[lethal light]

xD

[tame pewter]

my original rig was pretty close to the example rig guide
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/730948173379535022/875589509574713414/Humanoid_Rig_VRChat.png?width=676&height=676

i guess just gotta try the straight spine ._.

[lethal light]

yeah, I think that is a bit out of date, considering the spine is bent back and the hip is raised quite far above the legs

[prisma meadow]

they really should update that

[lethal light]

They just need to update the entire documentation. I think they are holding off though for now as stuff is still prone to changing, and it would be a lot of effort to rewrite the entire documentation just to have to do it again a month or two later

They could start pinning some of the tips in the IK beta channel though, so that it is easier for people wondering what is wrong to find that information besides trial and error or re-asking questions

[prisma meadow]

it would have been nice though to at least give some text guidance for the new ik best practices

[lethal light]

I do agree, although I'm not sure even they knew the extent of what was good/bad

[prisma meadow]

but i fixed the rig and still seem to be having issues. Looking down when calibrating seems to make it all disappear, so im just going to roll with that

[lethal light]

have you made sure to "regenerate" the rig in unity?

[prisma meadow]

yup. But its almost 1 am and i want to sleep. So i guess ill figure it out tomorrow. thanks for the ik tips tho

[lethal light]

no problem

[raw wadi]

[raw wadi]

I just try that rig avatar and everything work. FBT and 3 pt

sitting, dancing, etc

there might be 1 or 2 inch overreach issue, but it might be just me with long arms.

The spine strait itself. Anyway, that exact rig from mine that was ping at some point show no issue in the beta. Why it work, I don't know. Magic

[zenith crescent]

Any info about when will constraints replace the Final IK?

[raw wadi]

silence from the crew

[polar blade]

@oak pendant Sorry for the ping. Could you confirm is this is true. Is having vertically alligned hips/chest/spine/neck/head the best or should it be slightly bent?

Or is there some official documentation on how rig should be specifically?

[oak pendant]

It's currently the case that a bent spine in the rest pose is viewed as slack that can be applied as the ik solves the spine curve. This combined with the generally increased mobility of the upper spine compared to legacy, and the tendency for lock all mode to look better the tighter the spine is, means that right now a straighter spine will produce better results in most cases. This isn't something that should be in any kind of official docs at this point though. I'd like to address the issue but it's currently medium-low priority and also a fix would be potentially limiting to the range of solutions the spine solver can find. So the current state of straight spine being best is very subject to change.

[polar blade]

I see. Thanks for the explanation

[tame pewter]

i wasn’t necessarily having issues, just wanted to know if it was an improvement to straighten the spine

which is why i wanted to try it on my own rig and compare later

[zenith glacier]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/946881839400882196/949440232875524096/unknown.png

mine is like this for example and it seems to work pretty well. Hip & head lock require a slight looking down, like 5-10° degrees

[latent ocean]

So I have found that in the ik beta I'll sometimes be fine and sometimes my elbows don't track properly, they will track the right position by the ik will act strangely. Next time it happens I will get a video. I'm currious if I should bend the elbows forward but wanted to hear if ya'll already knew a fix.

[lethal light]

Pretty sure this is just Kung’s changes to the IK elbow positioning. Since it is a known issue and being worked on, I would wait before trying to fix it through the armature. Everyone seems to be having problems with the elbows at this point.

[latent ocean]

Thank you, I'll keep it as is for now. Glad I asked before trying things

[lethal light]

Mmhm

[robust tangle]

How about bent knees? It used to be that you needed the rest post to have slightly bent knees for the game to know which way the knees should bend, is this still true?

[oak pendant]

It should still be the case for AV2, but for AV3 the IKPose should handle applying the correct knee bend. However, there's an active canny that IKPose is not correctly working to adjust the bend direction. I still need to investigate what's going on there. The intended function of the IKPose in AV3 though is to handle that.

The knee bend in the TPose if use a custom one, would mainly be to allow your feet trackers to align well with your avatar's feet in the longitudinal direction, as the avatar hangs off your face during calibration.

That could be handled with bend at the thigh too though, so it additionally kind of sets the amount of slack in the legs and could be adjusted if you feel the avatar's knees lock sooner or later than your IRL knees when bending knees.

[toxic cobalt]

has anyone experienced this too? I have some time to port this to the canny if it hasnt been done already ^^; I hope its not too verbose for bug reporting purposes

I dont wanna post a duplicate issue.

[oak pendant]

This is the canny for it if you'd like to add to it. But I know what's causing it at this point. https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-legacyik-feet-ik-targets-previous-still-position-for-a-second

[final sphinx]

o so this is what caused it mk

[raw wadi]

For constraints, straight armature is ideal. So good thing we can align everything now.

[raw wadi]

But am not sure upper chest is suppose to be that high. If you say it work great. That's interesting.

[zenith glacier]

upper chest is basically slightly lower than armpits

i mean, where else should it be on a female avatar without breaking potential weightpaint on the upper chestarea?

[robust tangle]

How would you all feel if "Real User Height" change to "Real User Wingspan" when scale by armlength is active?

[tame pewter]

since when in my life have i ever measured my wingspan

if there was a button to calibrate/automatically assume wingspan with some little arm circles though…

[robust tangle]

well the plus side is once you get it right it's right for everything... but height -> wingspan assumption seems to be hit or miss

Apparently I have to lie about height to get it to assume the right wingspan

it's also pretty easy to measure wingspan in-game, just get the distance of the controllers from each other

No easy way to do that with height

[oak pendant]

Assuming the user stands straight, we have real world measurement of the HMD from the floor, but at least for release there won't be large changes to the default scaling I'm pretty sure

(still thinking about solutions though to the issue brought up in the canny that high-heel avatar users are having. I'm not ignoring that feedback)

[tame pewter]

i can say for every quest player without guardian enabled, our floors are usually in the ceiling or at our waist

it just… moves

drifts away each time you start the headset without guardian

it’s not too hard to fix, just throw the guardian back on for a sec to set the floor

but the quest sometimes bugs out and won’t allow you to enable or disable the guardian unless you factory reset or toggle developer mode a few times

just something to keep in mind if looking to use floor for anything

[zenith crescent]

Any info yet on the replacement of the Final IK?

[acoustic snow]

iirc finalIK is not on the way out

[coral cairn]

re: FinalIK

[sharp ermine]

Final ik will never be gone

It's the king of whitelisted components

[carmine gate]

final fantasy, final ik, when is anything actually final???

[subtle spoke]

self collision avoidance sounds like it could get annoying.

[modest imp]

Can i ask question about the SDK that is out, the one from March from the map of the beta ? Since i just install it in a clean unity project and got only error

[modest imp]

yup yup i just notice while logging in into the sdk

[high nest]

Wrong open beta channel but take a look at https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1184-spurious-console-errors-claiming-burstmathematics-arent-installed
It seems to be a spurious error message, in my case things seems to actually have loaded

[modest imp]

is it on the discussion on ? Either way i found the solution, now im just analizing the robot to figure out everything

[polar blade]

When using the lock head + hip type, does anyone know if there's any way of making it so that head doesn't lean forward excesively? like this?

My armature and viewball position (z=0.06) look like this

[zenith glacier]

easiest for now would be to look down by roughly 10-25 degrees during calibration to give it a bit more to play with. as far as i know neckbehaviour is still subject to change in the future

[bleak anvil]

^ can confirm this help alot with the way it works/looks

[polar blade]

it does help, thanks!

Interesting how a seemingly small difference when callibrating can yield such a difference

but yeah pretty satisfied with this thanks again. I liked lock head + head cause it felt like the most immersive one but the head slouch was a bummer.

[zenith glacier]

yeah, the amount of looking down differs from avi to avi, mine with an upper chest and "i tried something out" alignment almost does not need it (i do like 5-10° on her), while my old models need like 20ish

[final raven]

Uhhh, looks like you meant to post that in avatar dynamics section.

[robust tangle]

Fixed thanks

[mint abyss]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/toes-wiggle-aggressively-while-walking-in-fbt-with-force-locomotion-animations-f
the title speaks for itself

"Toes wiggle aggressively while walking in FBT with "Force locomotion animations for 6-point tracking" disabled."

[hot fulcrum]

xD

[ionic heron]

that's..an interesting one lmao

[mint abyss]

its hard to miss

[dusk anvil]

when the toes

[final raven]

That's just default locomotions being retained yeah. Notice it in the upper chest as well.

[marsh elm]

Yup i recorded a video about it a few weeks ago but decided that i didn't care enough

Toes wiggle and your chest moves like you're trying to free yourself from being lasso'd up

😂

[tardy ingot]

Where can I find the access code?

I was told to press enter without putting in anything, but it's not working

[dusk anvil]

there is no access code?

if you're on steam it's the box above the code input

[knotty acorn]

You don't need to put an access code in. Just do this.

[tardy ingot]

Ah, I see. It was saying the code wasn't valid or whatever, but turns out all I had to do was press the X and the beta was applied anyway.

[harsh lagoon]

yeah there is no code

dont know why it tells us to put one like we need one XD

[devout current]

If you would want to acces one of the internal version, you would need to put in a code, that's why it's there.

The code input and the beta selecion thing have nothing to do with each other

[harsh lagoon]

ooo fair enough

[devout current]

so for any of these branches (other than Public, Open Beta and IK-Beta of course) you would need to put in the corresponding code

[robust tangle]

There are most likely closed betas.

VRchat has secret codes didn't you know

Sadly they are not listed on GameFAQs

[ionic heron]

toes

[vital inlet]

How to turn on the bones for yourself

[icy vector]

Hi @terse kestrel 🤗
just pooping in to ask
what is the current Unity version VRC is supporting an any plan this year with changes for new versions

[ionic heron]

Unity 2019.4.31f1 - I'd also recommend reading the #rules, namely rule 11 c:
https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/current-unity-version

this is also the channel for the IK beta branch, and Tupper is a community manager at VRChat, not the sole developer of the game lol

[devout current]

you might want to remove that "v" at the end 😅

[ionic heron]

pfftdon'tknowwhatyoumean

[devout current]

xD

[icy vector]

lol thanks for the 404 page not found
ya we all know who Tupper is as we been in VRC for any years
thanks for the tip cheers

[ionic heron]

[bleak anvil]

[zenith glacier]

smell like troll, anyway. any eta for the next ik beta update? (just my curiousity)

[polar blade]

I've had this issue for a while where it feels like any of my avatars is always slightly bending forward. Does anyone know what the reason could be? This causes things like pic related where my avatar's front body doesn't match my real (before someone asks, no I'm not fat)

On the left pic my hands are touching my skin irl but the avatar is still super off. On the right one my hands are down on my hips sideways but the avatar has them somewhat forward

On the other hand if I touch my back it's the opposite, my hand would go through my avatar's skin, as if the hip were offset backwards

[robust tangle]

What tracking type do you have?

I know in 3 point your viewpoint will hang over your toes instead of your feet if you have toes bound as humanoid. I fix that “MJ lean” by just not binding toes

[polar blade]

6 point

[tough rock]

Does anyone know when open beta ends because I had been told about 4 times that it would be ending soon

One person told me it was gonna end then the actual update for dynamic bones in love version will be coming out so I just wanna clarify so I can go back in and test out some more avatars and have fun before it ends

[vestal oriole]

ik2 likely wont be out until physbone is (heres another guess, we dont know)

[robust tangle]

I’m not sure who told you that But this is going to be a long-term bet, it’s network compatible so you’re free to use it right now. Because of that there’s no real rush to put it on live. As Thulen said physbones will hit live (and be added to this beta) before this goes to live.

I would realistically expect it to last a few months

It will be kept up-to-date with live so there’s not really a difference in being live in the first place

It just gets to have more frequent updates

[teal pier]

will the update break all pre-existing avatars with twistbones? cause that is gonna break hundreds of avatars 😬

[rustic berry]

why would it do that?

[tranquil cipher]

I haven't heard of any twist bones breaking, including the ones I use myself. If you have a specific case where something is breaking you need to post on the canny and include as many details as possible so that it can be fixed

[high nest]

IK beta updated?

[final flint]

one thing ive noticed is that almost every other time i go onto VRC i have to re-do my avatar height, cause the trackers are almost a foot off from my last session, is this happening to anyone else?

[hot fulcrum]

Let's see what changed.

I think same update as live update so nothing special.

ohh many

[ionic heron]

pog

shoulder tracking? o:

[prisma meadow]

ooo

[real bane]

oh boy!

[primal viper]

People are gonna be covered in trackers

[real bane]

good thing I was going to FBT tonight!

10 point here we go again!

[acoustic snow]

Shrug update dropped

[final flint]

anyone else having the issue im having?

[loud forge]

TOES?!?!?

furries are going wild rn dude

[merry gale]

--custom-arm-ratio from the IK beta update sounds good, have to test!

[real bane]

because we need 10 trackers for each toes

[lilac sandal]

Likewise ^^

[ionic heron]

ten trackers on each toe?

[real bane]

joking of course

[ionic heron]

das a lotta trackers

[loud forge]

Are they going be like little rings on the toes

Just like

[strong sundial]

Im glad we atleast got a launch option for the beta ratio. A full option would be nice later on, but atleast having it for now is good to test.
Im also curious about how the shoulder tracking works

[merry gale]

The toes thing should be from when they fixed that your left toe curls up when you crouch in SDK 3 avatars

[real bane]

@merry gale oh that bug!

[loud forge]

Whoops

[real bane]

I was wonder why my toes were lfting

[loud forge]

Like I was saying, THAT'S HAPPENS?!?

[real bane]

yeah it happens

[merry gale]

used to, is fixed with this beta

[loud forge]

This shit sounds so funny

Just the toe curls up

lmao

[ionic heron]

some put their pinky finger up when they drink tea
others..

[real bane]

NO, we want 10 trackers one for each toes make it happen! joking of course

[hazy sleet]

So, wait: is the shoulder tracking a separate thing from elbow tracking? Or based on elbow tracking?

[oak pendant]

The shoulder tracking conceptualizes the arm tracker as more of an upper arm tracker than an elbow tracker, gaining information about the joints at both ends of the upper arm. It's not so simple because the shoulder pivot on the avatar rarely overlaps your IRL shoulder, but I did my best to get it to work. If you have at least 8pt be sure to test!

[loud forge]

Its like 500 dollars for each toe tracker too

[real bane]

"0.415" will approximate previous beta arm scale so what version of beta we talking about?

[oak pendant]

I posted a video of what it looks like here: https://twitter.com/Kung_VR/status/1506060927678181377

Kung (@Kung_VR)

VRChat IK2.0 Beta update 11721:
-Fixed legacy autostep blending
-Added --custom-arm-ratio="0.4537" launch option. "0.4537" is default, "0.415" approximates previous beta arm scale
-Implemented shoulder tracking for 8pt+ arm tracking. You must wear arm trackers above the elbow

▶ Play video

Twitter · Mar 22, 2022, 12:11 AM

[tame pewter]

woa shoulder roll

[ionic heron]

can finally shrug woo!

[loud forge]

ah cool

[silver geyser]

wonder if anybody has slime VR to test how it behaves with the new stuff

[maiden rock]

I wondered when this would happen :)

[oak pendant]

The version before we reverted the scale factor back to legacy for measure-by-arms

[hazy sleet]

I need more trackers so I can finally shrug whenever someone asks me why I'm mute.

[strong sundial]

Huh, that's really interesting. I didn't think of using a tracker for ik info like that.
Some dancers will definitely like that! I'll have to try it myself sometime this week since I've already been using 8 point tracking for elbows

[real bane]

so I can go the launcher and change --custom-arm-ratio="0.4537" to --custom-arm-ratio="0.415" ? @oak pendant seems to be it but just making sure

[dry wedge]

could you calculate custom-arm-ratio for a given avatar in blender or unity?

or what is it a ratio of exactly

[tawdry nymph]

https://fxtwitter.com/vr_hai/status/1506063050201251840

[oak pendant]

Yes, that would make it like before the patch reverting arm scale to legacy

[oak pendant]

LOL Haï~!

[clear wing]

absolutely amazing

[real bane]

@oak pendant Thank you, also since I use my trackers above my elbow, I will see that quality shoulder tracking.

[coral cairn]

Is the command line option going off of neck or head?

[coral cairn]

I'll add an option to immersive scaler to get this, and add it as a parameter.

[oak pendant]

It goes off head, thus 0.415 "approximates" the previous beta

[maiden rock]

head as in the head bone of "Head" IK assigned bone?

[final flint]

so you just need elbow trackers for the shoulders to work?

[onyx nest]

Does the new launch option for custom arm ratio work when using scale by avatar height?

[coral cairn]

it should only be relevant for arm scaling. Height is just fixed to your view height.

[oak pendant]

It measures from root of the head bone to wrist, the custom scale factor does not re-implement the measuring from neck. Supporting both methods in ik-beta would cause some tuning problems elsewhere.

[final flint]

if so imma just use my feet trackers as elbow trackers, if that works >.<;

[oak pendant]

If 0.415 is not exactly how you want it you can do more fine adjustment

[real bane]

very nice!

[oak pendant]

this is correct

[carmine gate]

oh you know Im gonna mess with that slider till it goes real wonky

[coral cairn]

you could already add 'extra leg length' has the same effect. and it gets very cursed

[maiden rock]

getting more understanding on how it previously worked to begin with helps as well, its not well documented, but thanks

[carmine gate]

(value*)

[real bane]

given the notes, my shoulder going to pop off. lol

[oak pendant]

Yes, you need elbow trackers. Though I'm gonna personally start calling them arm trackers, because now they're tracking two joints at both ends of the upper arm

[final flint]

ah, makes sense, and cool, thanks

[dry wedge]

assume distance from head to wrist is only in one axis?

[oak pendant]

It's in 3D

[real bane]

cannot wait to test this out! all my stuff is charged up and going to dance my hearts content!

[coral cairn]

it's linear distance when armature is in t-pose (that's how imscale gets it)

[onyx nest]

so now with this update we can now track both shoulders and elbows using 10 point?

[maiden rock]

for sanity reasons it sounds like it makes your life easier having your wrist bone at the same Y axis coordinate as the root of your head bone

[oak pendant]

Imagine testing this while developing it. My shoulders are tired now...

[pure hedge]

DLed and loading in with 8pt rn to test

[real bane]

@oak pendant woah there, need a massage?

[coral cairn]

kung's shoulders MVP here

[oak pendant]

I'd suggest using scale-by-height mode if you're trying to target a precise scale factor that gets feet on the floor

[maiden rock]

I do that currently, my avatar descriptor is exactly my pupil height from the floor

[coral cairn]

just assume shoulder height is the height of the wrist and the sum of the lengths is the how far out it is.
Or use imscale since that's how it works anyway.
This will make roller blades easier to scale right now 😃

[brazen condor]

Does adding shoulder trackers increase the number of potential trackers?

Or is it an optional elbow or shoulders and the max is still 10

[summer garden]

What counts as "above the elbow" exactly for elbow trackers?

[brazen condor]

I'm assuming above the joint

[real bane]

I personally assume towards the front of the biceps

[oak pendant]

anywhere that moves with your humerus (upper arm bone)

[real bane]

near the joint of the elbow

[summer garden]

Ahhh ok got it thanks!

[oak pendant]

It's not either elbow or shoulder, it's both. The upper arm bone is being tracked in a sense, which is used to calculate an IK position for both ends of that bone (the elbow and shoulder). As I mentioned before it's not quite that simple because the pivot point of the shoulder rarely matches between avatar and IRL. Unfortunately I can't go into specifics on how that problem is solved, but conceptually you can think of it as tracking the upper-arm bone.

[brazen condor]

I gotcha

I'm trying to think of if there would be any elbow accuracy loss

Honestly don't think there would be

[oak pendant]

It will increase the accuracy of the elbow

[brazen condor]

I meant doing it on the shoulder

Rather than above the joint

I think in theory it should be the same, the only conflict would be maybe hitting your head/face

The arms a fixed joint, if you know its length you can solve for where the joint should be

[oak pendant]

Oh... positioning the tracker you mean. I'd put it wherever feels hard to occlude and rigidly attached to the humerus bone

so probably somewhere around the middle maybe?

[brazen condor]

Honestly, some impressive workaround

[oak pendant]

depends on how ripped your biceps are... those might tend to move around

[brazen condor]

oop

So basically the best spot is either above the elbow joint or on top of your shoulder

Biceps is probably a bad idea

[rustic berry]

YOOO shoulder tracking

thank you Kung 💙

[brazen condor]

Though serious Kung that was some good thinking

[oak pendant]

I wouldn'*t put it on top of any joint. I've been having good results with it basically in the middle of the upper arm

[brazen condor]

I wouldn't have thought you could use elbow trackers as shoulder trackers

Makes sense in retrospect but an impressive idea non the less, good job

[rustic berry]

I was ready to wear extra trackers for shoulders but this is a much better solution lol

[brazen condor]

I'll wait for the dance pros to give their input but the idea and concept seem solid

I'm curious how the hell I'm going to get trackers on my shoulders through

I don't think a strap through my armpit will be confortable

[rustic berry]

just over the elbow should be fine

[maiden rock]

something like this?

using a bone to take the exact measurement is strangely easier than using Blender's measure tool

[oak pendant]

Thanks, yeah it's definitely not simple, if you just apply raw tracking data, the* shoulders on the avatar will instantly turn inside out if there's any pivot discrepancy. But I managed to get it working. I still probably needs some iteration based on feedback we'll get from you open beta testers

[rustic berry]

now that the logic is there for using a tracker to solve for 2 ends of a bone, can we expect a similar implementation for a chest tracker?

[coral cairn]

unity's t-pose may differ slightly from blender's but that's the idea

[brazen condor]

The chest tracker is where I'm kinda lost

[oak pendant]

I can't really comment on chest trackers beyond what's on canny, that we're "interested"

[brazen condor]

In theory the only joints in that area is the neck and maybe the bending of the back

[rustic berry]

figured, all good lol

[brazen condor]

Do we have outside source info if a chest tracker improves accuracy measurably?

(Aka from that other similar game)

[oak pendant]

Reason being that people don't really like it if features come and go, not trying to be uncommunicative.

[rustic berry]

I found that in Neos it would definitely help making sure that the chest stayed put during shoulder or head movements

[maiden rock]

OK one question I have, for a more accurate scale by height, what should we be targeting here, the head bone again, or is this relying on avatar descriptor to hmd eye position

[rustic berry]

understandable, I really appreciate the level of transparency and collaboration during this whole beta. it's a real breath of fresh air

[maiden rock]

I'd like to be a bit more scientific in dialling in the avatar rather than "keep changing stuff until it looks good" :o

[merry gale]

When scaling by height it's descriptor and origin

[maiden rock]

ok then that's what I'm doing right now then

[coral cairn]

head bone, based on trying with weird avatars back in legacy.

[maiden rock]

for reference

assuming that's to match up exactly with the location reported by steamvr of the hmd

[short knot]

what happens if you have elbow trackers on your forearm?

does it behave as normal (like last version) or does it break your shoulders

[oak pendant]

It'll break your shoulders. Forearm elbow trackers are no longer supported.

[short knot]

what?!

Would it be possible to add a toggle for forearm

[maiden rock]

stop wearing them wrong

[short knot]

SlimeVR's elbow tracking needs them on the forearm as we use the controllers as reference point

[oak pendant]

If you really don't want to track your shoulders, you can make super tiny shoulder bones. The shoulder tracking will detect this and give up. In that case you could continue wearing the trackers below the elbow

[tranquil cipher]

wait if you're just using the controller then what's the point of having elbow trackers at all?

[oak pendant]

Oh... you're using slime VR, slime VR will have to use their internal FK model to provide a reference of the upper arm bone, if they want to support this properly

[short knot]

Except this isn't possible with the sets we've been selling

We would need 2 trackers per arm for it to work with that

which is ridiculous

That is, one tracker on forearm and one tracker on upper arm

[oak pendant]

You'll* need a more sophisticated FK + IK model then to predict the upper arm position of an average humanoid wearing the HMD as seen from the predicted elbow position

[short knot]

Can you not just add a toggle to switch between "Elbow" and "Upper Arm" tracking? Or did you entirely ditch the old system?

[oak pendant]

This makes a good case for a need to disable shoulder tracking but keep elbow position only tracking. Please make a canny for this. The fact that there's an existing product that this would break is a strong motivator

[short knot]

Alright thank you. Will make one

[rustic berry]

this is definitely one of those things that would go in an "advanced" FBT config menu

pretty sure I already have a long canny comment about that

[short knot]

can you link it? I wanna share it on our server

[brazen condor]

I think to a extent they are trying to minimize UI as much as possible

Since UI space is a luxury

[carmine gate]

VRChat ought to be supporting all the methods and usecases, this game is THE reason there even is a consumer full-body tracking industry

[rustic berry]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/chest-trackers

[oak pendant]

Your request to be able to disable shoulder tracking, but keep elbow only should have its own canny post

[rustic berry]

^ agreed

[short knot]

oh the canny is about the advanced menu

alright

[rustic berry]

ye

I think having a floating menu while in FBT calibration mode would be cool

[raw wadi]

For UI space. Everything can be drop down so that's not an issue

[brazen condor]

Drop downs hard to do in UI (For VR and make it intuitive and functional)

There's a reason the VRC UI overhaul has been a process

Its a design problem much harder than it initially appears

[raw wadi]

I say drop down but what I mean is the expend

[brazen condor]

Sorta like the feather menus?

[raw wadi]

The wing are under use

[oak pendant]

It does make sense to have our IK2.0 model handle the shoulders based on the avatar rather than an internal IK + FK model from slime vr that doesn't know the avatar's proportions... so this is likely something that I'd implement. But make sure to document it on canny (so I don't forget)

[brazen condor]

I mean sorta like that

[maiden rock]

would it be facetious of me to raise a canny to ask for documentation

[short knot]

Thanks. Doing that right now

[raw wadi]

We should be able to customize those freely

[oak pendant]

Please document all the documentation you'd like in the canny post /freelabor

Just joking, documentation will come a bit later when things are more locked in

[maiden rock]

👍