ik-2

[final flint]

is that a bug with it?

[bleak anvil]

No its just the way the different techniques work

In order to maintain the position of one a sacrifice of another is kinda required in a way.

[robust tangle]

Lock head will make your head the perfect tracking point, lock hip will make your hip the perfect tracking point. The spine will extend naturally and the one you didn’t lock will be a little off of his tracking point.

If you lock both both will perfectly track but then if the two of them get closer together your spine will buckle as the bones in between cannot squeeze they must bend

TLDR, used Lock head only if you want fullbody that works just like regular 3 point but with legs added

[cosmic hamlet]

i am just wondering if someone has the download link for the ik-2 😄

[dusk anvil]

#open-beta-info tells you how to switch to the beta

[cosmic hamlet]

@dusk anvil sorry i was looking for the actually link to download it sense i dont have it

[dusk anvil]

you get ik 2 by... switching to the ik beta.

[final flint]

Thanks, really appreciate it

[cosmic hamlet]

ohhh XD ty

[dusk anvil]

ye no prob

[alpine briar]

this is the error im getting?

[robust tangle]

https://tenor.com/view/tiny-text-cant-see-ken-jeong-gif-5957945

Could you paste the text lol

[alpine briar]

LOL

SOrry yeah i gotchu

Field 'VRC.SDKBase.IAnimParameterAccess VRC.Dynamics.VRCPhysBoneBase::param_Stretch' from 'Assets/VRCSDK/Plugins/VRC.Dynamics.dll', exception Failed to resolve VRC.SDKBase.IAnimParameterAccess
UnityEditor.BuildPipeline:BuildAssetBundles (string,UnityEditor.AssetBundleBuild[],UnityEditor.BuildAssetBundleOptions,UnityEditor.BuildTarget)
VRC.SDK3.Builder.VRCAvatarBuilder:ExportCurrentAvatarResource (UnityEngine.Object,bool)
VRC.SDK3.Builder.VRCAvatarBuilder:ExportAndTestAvatarBlueprint (UnityEngine.GameObject)
VRC.SDKBase.Editor.VRC_SdkBuilder:ExportAndTestAvatarBlueprint (UnityEngine.GameObject)
VRC.SDK3.Editor.VRCSdkControlPanelAvatarBuilder3A:OnGUIAvatar (VRC.SDKBase.VRC_AvatarDescriptor) (at Assets/VRCSDK/SDK3A/Editor/VRCSdkControlPanelAvatarBuilder3A.cs:526)
VRC.SDKBase.Editor.VRCSdkControlPanelAvatarBuilder:ShowBuilder () (at Assets/VRCSDK/Dependencies/VRChat/Editor/ControlPanel/VRCSdkControlPanelAvatarBuilder.cs:156)
VRCSdkControlPanel:ShowBuilders () (at Assets/VRCSDK/Dependencies/VRChat/Editor/ControlPanel/VRCSdkControlPanelBuilder.cs:329)
VRCSdkControlPanel:OnGUI () (at Assets/VRCSDK/Dependencies/VRChat/Editor/ControlPanel/VRCSdkControlPanel.cs:213)
UnityEngine.GUIUtility:ProcessEvent (int,intptr)

that copied a lot more than i thought it would but the first part is there lol

[robust tangle]

Did this happen when you clicked auto fix on some dynamic bones or when did it show up

[bleak anvil]

Lol

[alpine briar]

sorry im still pretty new to all this
so im sure its a little bit of a dumb question

i did autofix it

[robust tangle]

Hit clear button on the console log to see if it’s a persistent error or if it was just a one time thing with the conversion

[alpine briar]

Assets\VRCSDK\Dependencies\VRChat\Scripts\Validation\Performance\Scanners\ContactPerformanceScanner.cs(36,23): error CS1061: 'AvatarPerformanceStats' does not contain a definition for 'contactCount' and no accessible extension method 'contactCount' accepting a first argument of type 'AvatarPerformanceStats' could be found (are you missing a using directive or an assembly reference?)

Assets\VRCSDK\Dependencies\VRChat\Scripts\Validation\Performance\Scanners\PhysBonePerformanceScanner.cs(78,56): error CS0426: The type name 'PhysBoneStats' does not exist in the type 'AvatarPerformanceStats'

Assets\VRCSDK\Dependencies\VRChat\Scripts\Validation\Performance\Scanners\PhysBonePerformanceScanner.cs(83,27): error CS1061: 'AvatarPerformanceStats' does not contain a definition for 'physBone' and no accessible extension method 'physBone' accepting a first argument of type 'AvatarPerformanceStats' could be found (are you missing a using directive or an assembly reference?)

Assets\VRCSDK\Dependencies\VRChat\Scripts\Validation\Performance\Scanners\PhysBonePerformanceScanner.cs(86,27): error CS1061: 'AvatarPerformanceStats' does not contain a definition for 'physBone' and no accessible extension method 'physBone' accepting a first argument of type 'AvatarPerformanceStats' could be found (are you missing a using directive or an assembly reference?)

[vital inlet]

Any updates today?

[late vector]

oops sorry wrong channel

[harsh lagoon]

go post it elsewhere then and delete it here you sillyyyy

[late vector]

Trying to copypaste in vr is hard ok

[vital inlet]

someone help? how do i do the SDK thing on quest 😭

[robust tangle]

You can’t use the SDK unless you have a computer with unity installed

[dusk anvil]

na

[split pulsar]

please forgive the dumb question (I've been trying to find the answer on my own but failing)... does IK 2 Beta also contain all the features of the Open Beta?

[silver geyser]

nope they're two separate Betas

[vital inlet]

Please explain

[silver geyser]

they are beta testing both features at the same time with separate versions of vrchat for each feature

[vital inlet]

What are both of the features

[silver geyser]

open Beta announcements describes both of them in great detail

[vital inlet]

Too many words

[silver geyser]

the open Beta is for Avatar Dynamics which makes your jiggle bones go faster and people be able to touch each jiggle bones and Trigger animations with them. ik 2 is about making arm and leg movement better

[subtle spoke]

Must resist commenting about the jiggle bones!

[devout current]

jiggle bones xD

[silver geyser]

mostly I just went with jiggle bones so I didn't have to deal with distinctions of physics bones versus Dynamic bones

[devout current]

xD

[tame pewter]

i hear jiggle bones i think source engine .qc

pain

[silver geyser]

https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Jiggle_bones

[fickle fulcrum]

#932343643040284682 message ooo just watched this and immediately downloaded it on steam

this is so cool :DDD

im interested how itll work for me since i have kinect tracking

[tawdry glen]

If you are using Driver4VR for Kinect tracking, they added support for knee and elbow tracking with it in the latest update for use in this beta.

[robust tangle]

Then beta is too complex for you honestly >_>

[vital inlet]

No I'm just too lazy to read

[loud palm]

its the best way you'd get info, even just scanning it for what you want out of the text helps you figure out things and not have to ask

i mean, they did label the Features in the messages

[robust tangle]

Then you are also too lazy to read the documentation which means you’re not going to be able to use the beta anyway

[copper trench]

[formal bluff]

SOOOooo how does one activate the ik beta?????

[prisma meadow]

Same way you activate normal betas

[formal bluff]

https://tenor.com/view/tom-and-jerry-what-insomnia-no-sleep-gif-13337078

[formal bluff]

yes and how you do that

[manic gust]

#open-beta-info

scroll up

[formal bluff]

to wherethereis so much shit

https://tenor.com/view/batman-batman-intensifies-gif-19486549

😂🤣🤣

[ebon rune]

does physics bone work with ik beta

[subtle arrow]

No they are separate builds at this time

[ebon rune]

Cheers. Guess Return to dynamic bone then

[robust tangle]

Hot take; People who aren’t willing to read the instructions on how to get into the beta should not be allowed to get into the beta

[devout current]

yeah kinda true

[ebon rune]

I am sorry sir. I am so focus on trying to make my avi work and kind of missed out on the document. Sorry

[robust tangle]

For every user you hand hold to get into the beta you will have that same user asking why they can’t see anyone and how to get out of the beta

[robust tangle]

Wasn’t directed at you lol, you’re fine

[devout current]

Yeahh I noticed that reallll quick

I also loved that one person who wanted to test the beta but didn't wanna read the change log "because it was to much text"

[robust tangle]

Yes yes they’re going to get on and give the very important observation that the auto replacer is currently inaccurate

[robust tangle]

There are not currently any private betas

Well, there might be, but no one here can tell you how to access them if they even do exist

[formal bluff]

oh oh it auto updated so quick i didnt see it oops

[digital grove]

Yes

[mint panther]

what is ik2?

[digital grove]

#open-beta-announcements

[silver geyser]

basically it makes arms and legs move better in vr

[mint panther]

oh ok

ty

[digital grove]

(also 10 point tracking)

[silver geyser]

of course I was just giving the super simple explanation

[celest lance]

Yes and the stupid issue where you would lay on your side and your chest would flip 180 degrees or somn

[ebon rune]

I love the arm length one. It is more accurate and now I am adjusting the avatar height to finally make my knee in its place

[vital inlet]

I can't go back to live?

I have switched but when i go to play i'm still in beta

[spark junco]

If on Quest, you have to factory reset.

[vital inlet]

Oh?

Cuz, i cant re-add vrchat

[minor rampart]

factory reset the entire device?

[spark junco]

Yes.

[minor rampart]

yikes

[spark junco]

That seems to be the best method thus far.

[silver geyser]

basically Facebook made the software for handling beta versions very poorly

[robust tangle]

“ why would anyone need to rollback their version of a game?”

[steady sigil]

Actually if you have multiple accounts on the quest you just have to remove the accs or uninstall the vrchat app from THOSE accs.
But if it's only your acc on the quest then yeah I guess-?
I had the same problem and no one told me about the multiple account thing

[steady sigil]

Whoop I replied to the wrong one-

[spare path]

There's a lot of kids who are wiping their quests because they don't know how to get out of the beta.

[silver geyser]

because apparently Facebook coded the system for like handling betas very poorly

[spare path]

Right it's facebook's fault people are stupid

actually

that might be true

🤔

[silver geyser]

like even vrchat moderation is recommending the factory resetting

[spare path]

lmao what

[silver geyser]

so it's not just children being not knowledgeable

[spare path]

Really?

That's crazy

[silver geyser]

#ik-2 message

[spare path]

he's... Not a mod

he's a nitro booster

🤦‍♀️

[silver geyser]

sorry for the mix-up

but yeah even the adults are having to factory reset to fix it

this open Beta is the most amount of quest users I've seen try to join

[spare path]

they finally get the dynamic bones they've heard so much about so I'm sure it's a big deal for alot of them

the majority of people in the open beta worlds right now are quest users

it's quite infuriating actually

Trying to test avatar dynamic stuff with people who can't even see you

reee

[loud patio]

Time to be quest compatible!

[spare path]

No. The most you're getting is a fallback.

[loud patio]

Then the most testing you're gonna get is fallback IK

[bronze seal]

do we know when the ik 2.0 beta is going to be fully implemented into the game? im having a hard time deciding which beta i want to use right now tbh

[devout current]

There is no ETA, it will probably still take some time

the IK beta is network compartibile though, so if you wanna play with freinds, use the IK beta, if not you can use the Avatar Dynamics Beta

[mystic reef]

Just get a friend that can use both quest and pc

Also

Idk if this is the place to ask

But, does anyone know when the dynamic bone component will stop being whitelisted?

[devout current]

but this is also the #ik-2 channel so please use #open-beta-discussion for any further questions etc

[mystic reef]

Ah, TBA

[spare path]

it's better this way

[mystic reef]

Thank you! There’s so many channels it was a bit overwhelming to find

[spare path]

dynamic bones are awful and if they don't permanently remove them even with the new system people will be lazy and just say "JuST tUrN OfF BoNe ConVeRsIonS"

I promise

instead of fixing stuff people always choose the less optimized option

because optimizing takes work

[mystic reef]

It does! Let’s chat about this in the discussion if you’re comfortable moving

[spare path]

@ me there

[bronze seal]

oh so the open beta isnt network compatible?

[devout current]

nope, you can only see people who are also using the Avatar Dynamics beta

[bronze seal]

its just the problem that i wanna use both lmfao

alright i guess ill just use the ik for now

[devout current]

sadly, you can't

[bronze seal]

thanks tho!

[zenith glacier]

this, 100% . Sadly one has to sort of force people to do something right, otherwise they will be like "but it works" or "my avatar is medium, what do you want?" while it gets outperformed by decent made very poors xD

[rigid acorn]

Does anyone know if Ik 2.0 beta works with a Kinect

[hollow sigil]

Here's a suggestion

try it

[signal epoch]

is it just me, or are the elbows in ik 2.0 very Snappy. like when u stretch all the way it locks/snaps in stretched

[carmine gate]

Yes it does, as for extra trackers they're supported in the latest beta version of KinectToVR. (Amethyst)

[devout current]

yeah it's a bit more with IK 2

but changing your height setting might help with that a bit

my friend hated that about the new IK, it made him feel a bit sick xD

[signal epoch]

yeah .-. feels clunky

[copper trench]

would rather have my arms snap straight out like im stretching than be permanently bent like im wearing a cast

i believe that is because you have calibrate-by-arm-length enabled...go back to height and i imagine it may not be as pronounced

im sure if your model was measured perfectly to match your joint proportions in meat-space it might be behave more "realistically"

[robust tangle]

I think they are anticipating this, but I believe the ability to grab and interact with other people on old content is going to pressure people into keeping the auto converter on.

You’ll have people shouting to turn the Phys bone converter back on, as well

But it will certainly be a point of contention, thankfully one that will get better with time as new content keeps rolling in that isn’t effected by the setting.

I don’t see many SDK2 avatars these days! It will be the same with DB with enough time

[zenith glacier]

i would still like to see, that since it is a huge change already, they would reward people for optimizing their avatars a little, so people might even consider "hey, i could do something" cause they have to adjust their avatars anyway

[robust tangle]

Once the auto replacer gets a bit better it will be a one button fix. They just need to make Isanimated and Endoffset convert a bit better

Also #open-beta-discussion since this one is for Ik oops

[vital inlet]

needing help, only 5 my trackers work

and ik 2.0 is ment too support 10 point?

the others are all under my right foot

[robust tangle]

IK 2.0 supports 7 body trackers

[vital inlet]

oh?

i thought its ment too support 10?

[robust tangle]

The other three are your headset and controllers

[vital inlet]

yeah

how am i gonna use elbow tracking then? D:

[devout current]

It's 10 point tracking cause your head and controllers also count as tracking points

[timber grove]

Using 7 vive trackers makes your setup 10 point.

Now back to why they aren't connecting

[vital inlet]

ive only got 5

[robust tangle]

The 7 body trackers are 1 hip, 2 feet, 2 elbows, and 2 knees

[devout current]

3 + 7 = 10 🤯

[vital inlet]

and if its 10 point

im only using 7

so i should have a other 3

[devout current]

you don't need to, but you can if you want

[timber grove]

Since you are using 5 trackers it should be 8 point right?

[vital inlet]

because 5 are trackers and the other 3 are my controllers and headset

[vital inlet]

it aint working tho

they are just under my right foot

1 sec

[timber grove]

Are your trackers not pairing, connecting or are they glitching out?

[robust tangle]

Sounds like they are not paired

Are they moving in SteamVR?

[vital inlet]

omg

i might know why.

brb

[timber grove]

Dongles not plugged in perhaps?

[vital inlet]

dongles?

my friend im a kinect user lmao

and yes ik what software im using

it can track up too 21 points

[timber grove]

oh

Well then that changes everything.

[vital inlet]

indeed

:kek:

i disabled half them

[timber grove]

You are on the new beta right?

[vital inlet]

only got 7 enabled rn

[vital inlet]

yep

only 7 enabled rn

[timber grove]

What happens when you try to calibrate

[vital inlet]

it looks normal just some trackers under my right foot

it may be because i enabled them during ingame

so ima restart

and see if thats the issue

[timber grove]

Try that

[robust tangle]

You shouldn’t be disabling virtual tracters in steam VR

[swift thunder]

here's a video of my issues with asymmetric arm positioning and elbow tracking. The avatar height is set to 20cm higher than my real height, so the left arm never locks out, while my right one always does. Its the same with 8point-knee, 6point and 3point tracking. I swear my arms have an equal length, i have no shoulder mobility issues or anything like that. Controllers dont wobble when turning or anything.

Sry, video is offset because i am stupid and cant use obs properly 😛

I post this mostly to link it to this canny issue: https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/vr-arms-becomes-much-shorter-in-new-ik-causing-extreme-arm-pull

[robust tangle]

Your driver software should just be generating only seven virtual trackers from the start

[vital inlet]

fric.

i accidently left the lenses of my headset facing the light while i was fixing it

now the screen has a pixeilated square

please tell me this is a glitch instead :wah:

thank god

its vrchat itself

btw uh also can confirm this new tracking is amazing https://youtu.be/h-jXN-EChxo

sitting is amazing aswell

[brazen condor]

What are ya'lls recommendations for elbow/knee straps?

[loud patio]

Skywin straps on Amazon. Comfy and cheap

[brazen condor]

https://www.amazon.com/Skywin-Tracker-Straps-HTC-VIVE-System/dp/B07DGH5KD2/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1VXXLHRI1D2A4&keywords=Skywin+straps&qid=1646864723&sprefix=skywin+straps+%2Caps%2C58&sr=8-2

Just these?

[loud patio]

Yep those

[brazen condor]

Gotcha, thanks for the heads up ^-^

[minor haven]

If you are a bit bigger (i'm 240lbs) those skywin straps might be a bit tight under your knees. comfortable on elbows and feet though

[icy ravine]

oculus quest 2 es work

[strange idol]

Ugh, I can't log into the Canny to give a suggestion, reeeee.

I was going to say that the head lock position should be pushed backwards a little to be more accurate to where someone's head might actually be. 🙂

Right now it's using the HMD position, which is forward on the face, as a result facing down will pull the head lock position down.

(Implementing this could also help avoid the body sinking down when looking down in FBT calibration)

[tranquil cipher]

that depends entirely on the viewpoint of the avatar descriptor

which should be placed between the eyes for exactly that reason, not in the middle of the head

[strange idol]

But the same issue happens. :o
I have it between my eyes, at the 'View Position'.

Basically pupil level, as I would expect the HMD lenses to be at.

[tranquil cipher]

could also be the size of the head and neck position

[strange idol]

But I mean, this issue does exist anyway in FBT calibrate too, it's what causes you to 'sink' when you look down. 🙂

Horrible example but this is what I mean:

Blue is what SteamVR will provide as the HMD transform position.

Red is the actual place you 'pivot'.

Realistically you just want rotation, not the levering caused by the HMD position being forward. Just needs an object offset backwards from the HMD position a little and it'd help a lot. 😄

The only issues I could see with this is if some headset decided the 'Head transform' was actually the head not the headset front... 😅

[tranquil cipher]

but the viewpoint position allows you to control that. If it's not correct, change it

maybe the calibrate pose shouldn't use the HMD transform, that's a good suggestion. But that has no bearing on when the avatar is actually being used

[strange idol]

So to prevent the avatar from moving down when look forward to hold the head lock, what should I do? Move the view position forward out from the head?

Further forward I mean, right now it's about the bridge of the nose.

[strange idol]

And yeah, I suppose today it'd mess with calibration of pre-existing avatars unfortunately! Would be good for FBT calibrate though so you can actually look at your feet as you calibrate. 😄

[lethal light]

Moving the view point inside the head actually works fairly well for lining the your avatar up with you better, although I think the only people that do this are few and far between, and should be able to change it relatively painlessly (could make it a toggle somewhere in the ik settings)

[zenith glacier]

probably cause every single guide said "have the viewpoint between the eyes and the viewpoint sphere slightly behind your face skin or barely visible" since unity 5.6 (year 2018) as far as i can tell.

I guess testing would be in order, if the new IK favours a different position.

[hasty adder]

I am having issues when I use the IK Beta and I play games such as among us murder four and I believe ghost it is not letting me Spond in with everyone else and I just get stuck in the lobby can someone please help me

[native condor]

does the ik beta include the new bones open beta stuff? or do i have to pick one or the others features

[devout current]

You have to pick one or the other

[native condor]

rip, guess ill pick bones

[devout current]

Ik 2.0 is networking compatibility though, which the Avatar Dynamics beta isn't. So if you wanna play with friends you can only use the IK (or live)

At least as long as your friends aren't also on the Avatar Dynamics beta

@native condor

[native condor]

i must test the headpats!

[devout current]

xD

[zenith glacier]

understandable, personally i think the next version of the avatar dynamics beta will get interesting, since they hopefully implement a lot of the feedback suggestions they got.

[hasty adder]

Please help me with this

[devout current]

this is all they have marked as complete for now, basically two of the main issues I had with it. anyway let's rember that this is #ik-2 and not #open-beta-discussion

[zenith glacier]

i guess some people reported (only here in discord as far as i know), that ik behaved weird and had people t-posing and so on over network. can you test if it still happens when you are not in beta?

What i am basically suggesting is, making sure its the IK beta causing that behaviour and if it is, posting it in https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20?sort=new so they can have a look, why teleport/spawn events of such maps could break with the new IK

[hasty adder]

Everything works fine when I am not using the beta But after I used to beta everything breaks and I am no longer able to spot in games such as among us and murder for I just get stuck in the lobby everything else other than that works fine

[zenith glacier]

then a post in feedback it is i guess. Otherwise they wont fix that

[hasty adder]

OK I will get to it later thank you

[upbeat vault]

did you rule out minor desync issues between beta and live?
try to create an instance and only invite others that are in the beta

[mossy tendon]

when i use an avatar with stations i get very laggy and eventually frozen ik to others even if i look fine to myself. not consistently, seems to happen more often on crowded maps
i still need to test it more before considering a canny. ie see if it happens with other people who have the beta ik client (because if it doesn't its not an issue) but anyone else ran into this

[robust tangle]

According to comments, this bug has gotten even worse on the IK beta, as a possible workaround has also stopped working. https://vrchat.canny.io/avatar-30/p/bugbuild-1004-avatars-30-emotes-on-index-do-not-have-root-transform-applied-prop

[desert tartan]

how to get

[dusk anvil]

#open-beta-info

scroll up in there

[desert tartan]

i already have open beta installed

[dusk anvil]

then you launch vrchat

[desert tartan]

yea

[ionic heron]

choose the IK beta, instead of the other beta

[vapid mica]

if you fully quest try u installing it and reinstalling it and change it back to Live-release before you do this from my experience.

[errant helm]

Is 11/7point tracking on the board for the new IK? (Chest tracker) I know 8 and 10 just came around but I was just wondering if I could ever make use of my extra tracker

[zenith glacier]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/chest-trackers

[dusk anvil]

👀

[vital inlet]

how do you enable this on quest 2

[zenith glacier]

yeh, i am for supporting as much as possible, even if that means if i have to redo parts of the locomotion layer i provide over wetcats gumroad.

[vital inlet]

heh?

[devout current]

the ik beta is currently not available for quest yet

[severe harbor]

It on quest

You have to go the quest website to do it

[dusk anvil]

dont know how the fuck this happened
i have no mods installed, on the ik branch of the beta. don't know how to reproduce this bug.

and also on the ik branch when taking a photo for an invite, after taking the photo it's a grey square on the main menu.

dont know if anyone else is having this problem or if it's just me (again, no mods installed.)

[tame pewter]

logs may help, worth a canny and/or video clip

[dusk anvil]

ye
i'll see if i can recreate it tomorrow

[harsh lagoon]

that looks to me like your playspace just got misplaced or something

theres a chance when you were loading the game up, your headset was covered or not being seen by a tracker or something and threw you off to the side, and stuck you there when you loaded

[chilly jolt]

I used the IK 2.0 beta with my cobbled-together, smartwatch-based full body tracking setup, and the ability to add the extra knee trackers really seemed to make a difference. I'm seeing much less of my elbows clipping through my torso too. Nice work, VRC team!

[dusk anvil]

i was on desktop

[devout current]

well, that's a different story then

[solid sky]

You ever going to fix the vote kick for IK beta I know it's fixed in the live version.

[devout current]

yes, with the next IK update we will also get the patches out of the live version

[vapid ermine]

Hello all, This is an open question, but I hope it might lead to some interesting ideas!

I'm a PhD student working on using VR for gait rehabilitation to allow stroke / spinal cord injury patients to more easily gain access to more effective rehabilitation.

One area I'm especially interested in is the use of fully tracked avatars, which is not being done in any research yet, I believe mostly because of the lack of knowledge on how to achieve this (in real time). Even meta calls FBT unnecessary and "physically impossible", which is just false. From the limited research that has been done, there is enough evidence to think that using avatars can indeed be very beneficial.

VR IK 2.0 system so far looks better than anything I've seen so I was hoping there are some possibilities for a collaboration or perhaps an open discussion about your thoughts and ideas. Is there anyone on the dev team of this IK technology that would be willing and able to share their thoughts on this matter? 🙂

[minor rampart]

@oak pendant see above.

[dusk anvil]

guess it was just a special case of game being funny. haven't managed to get it to happen again so far

these issues prolly don't exist on the avatar dynamics beta, probably. haven't tried to get the grey invite photo on that beta yet

[scarlet pine]

i have the problem that my viewpoint sinks into the chest when laying down. if i use lock head my hip will sink down and not match with my body anymore. if i put both on lock it squashes my body / hip

is it because of the viewpoint?

[devout current]

no, that's because your Avatars proportion don't really match with you IRL proportion, either your head or your hip will move away a bit

[zenith glacier]

what may help if making yourself a tiny bit bigger with your real life height than you are. The issue is like blackrat said that the avatars proportions dont fit your real life ones

[robust tangle]

The first two are expected behavior, lock both only works if your avatar is proportioned to yourself Tracker locations are being worn correctly

I call Lock Both Kung Mode. You need to work for it.

[devout current]

"Kung Mode" xD

can we please rename Lock Both to Kung Mode? xD

[zenith glacier]

lock both puts strain on the back joints (spine, chest, upperchest, neck). If you look down roughly 20% during calibration it already works way better

[icy ravine]

but how How

[halcyon sonnet]

I'm not going to lie that sounds like a really interesting setup

[digital grove]

Looks like you have a ridiculously huge play area and just walked really far away

[dusk anvil]

me omw to rent a warehouse just for this image

(nobody will stop me)

[feral jackal]

How do I enable the ik beta on my VRC?

[dusk anvil]

its not on quest

if on steam go through the same menu

but select ik beta instead

[feral jackal]

i figured it out, thanks.

[chilly jolt]

I put all the details and an example of the tracking on Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvuB1QDji8I&t=10s

[dusk anvil]

this sounds pretty neat

[chilly jolt]

If you're the sort of person who has spare smartwatches hanging about, or who wants occlusionless FBT on a budget while waiting for SlimeVR to arrive properly - yeah, it is pretty neat! Let me know if you try it out!

[unreal vale]

Hey guys I have a question,

so bsically I want to put the IK beta onto the oculus rift verison of vrchat but im not sure how, any help?

[lone mango]

I'm having issues switching back out of beta

[idle veldt]

same

[fickle fulcrum]

how do you test out phys bones?

do they not let you test within unity like dynamic bones let you do? :(

so in a video he does seem to be able to do it within ''play mode''

but i cant seem to move my camera or anything?

oh

do you need to be in 'scene'?

but even then

how do i move the model?

like how do i grab and move it around freely

wait i think i got it?

but is there not an easier shortcut like ''g'' in blender?

also, if i have a chain of bones like, say a tail

do i only apply physbones to the first bone?

or every bone separately?

actually

specifically not applying this to the first bone of the tail seems to help it stay in place

neat!

wait

now im here again

eh??

can someone help me

i cant seem to be able to access open beta

i was in it just a sec ago but after switching back here it just dissapeared again

the category is opened

[carmine gate]

It's steam only

[fringe marten]

Could someone tell me where to swap to the live ik2 beta? I’ve got steam just don’t know where the option is. Thank you!

Nvm got it. Same spot for regular VRChat open betas

[raw junco]

Switch out of game tab and go to scene tab to be able to move your avatar around and see what the phys bones look like when applied

[fickle fulcrum]

yee thanks

im in #open-beta-discussion rn

[vital inlet]

ik has suddenly unsupported 10 point tracking

now it only handles 9

using 10 everything works

like every input and everything

i just cant walk

someone able help?

well well well

it didnt fix it

[lethal light]

By chance are you using the hip locomotion program by juice? I know that caused issues with me. Or any other program that adds in an extra tracker (even if it is just a virtual tracker)

[vital inlet]

nope, im using diffrent software

kinectv2

it was working perfectly yesterday

so i assume. A: due too a vrchat update or B: its a steamvr update

or C: the cable wasnt fully connected

and yes if it aint fully connected it sometimes causes me issues

[vital inlet]

i mean i did get a notification saying system but when i check it, it was blank

then i exited and got on today and walking doesnt work

it was working like a charm when i was first using it, all 10 points same software https://youtu.be/h-jXN-EChxo

so i think it may been a steamvr update

[lethal light]

I don't think vrchat has updated the ik beta yet, but steamvr updated yesterday (for beta users)

[lethal light]

Did you turn on your controllers or the kinect2vr first, I get wierd issues if I turn on my trackers before my controllers; I also assume you have restarted the computer right?

[lament thistle]

I don't know if anyone else has seen this yet with the final ik but different armatures on avatars have completely broken and it's making things very buggy like when I go to change into a mamagen Avatar my custom one the tongue will pull itself away from the model until I do a facial gesture involving that tongue

Or even when I change into one of my commissions that I've done before the clothing is completely torn away from the Avatar and you can see everything underneath it's a little buggy I don't know if anyone's mentioned anything about it yet but I just wanted to make sure that people know that it's a thing

[zenith glacier]

you have to do a post on their feedback forum, else it wont get addressed. screenshots would help and maybe even visiting the world mentioned in the pins here might help you to understand which bones may act different than you expect them to

[warm lintel]

Wait so is more than 3 trackers live now? Cause I tried 4 and it didn’t work

I’m on the beta

[tame pewter]

my afk animation spins twice as much with beta ik..?

[tame pewter]

https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/root-transform-rotation-applied-twice-as-much

[acoustic snow]

the options in IK2 are 3 point, 4pt, 6pt, 8pt, and 10pt. no other configuration will work.

(HMD and controllers are points; 3 point tracking is HMD and controllers.)

[all tracking options greater than 3 point require a hip tracker]

[polar blade]

how does this armature look like for fbt? should the chest/spine/neck be vertically aligned?

[copper trench]

upper chest is supported now btw

[polar blade]

have you tried it out? how well does it work?

[timber grove]

owo? it is??

[cinder violet]

Really? 11 point? Details please.

[marsh elm]

I think he is talking about rigging, rather than tracking the chest

Upper chest was cursed in the previous SDK and now works fine apparently

[copper trench]

- Added/refined support for upper-chest humanoid bone in FBT

just the rig

[polar blade]

ty

[vital inlet]

they both turn on together

and i cant turn any them off because then they dont work

[loud sage]

How does one get out of open beta??

[alpine bronze]

Reverse what you did to get into it. If on Quest, you would also need to uninstall VRChat and then reinstall

[vital inlet]

nope its defo vrchat itself

so you know how you can see what your pressing or moving

in vrchat it shows im moving the joystick yet it doesnt move me

[robust tangle]

What would cause the knees to bend in head-locked mode but be straight in hip lock mode?

What do I fix

[lethal light]

Hmm... I haven't really used those modes at all, but it could be that the knees are not bent enough or just not proportioned well. When you say bend, do you mean like bend backwards? {And is this in fullbody or half body?}(edit I'm stupid) And how are you trying to bend them?

[robust tangle]

No the avatar just slightly crouches in headlock mode and stands up straight in hip lock. I’m just standing up straight

Knees should have no bend at all

[coral cairn]

Does your torso move up and down when switching?

[robust tangle]

Yes, it moves up and down

Head does as well

[coral cairn]

So I feel like the view point irl position doesn't match my height exactly in most cases

[robust tangle]

I have the viewpoint pretty much exactly on like when I do the shoulder touch test and stuff

[coral cairn]

If I round up on my real height it gets better

Wish I could set that in cm not inches

[coral cairn]

Head or hip lock mode?

[robust tangle]

Both

[lethal light]

I think this is kind of the "inteded" scenario, as hip lock makes the feet/legs more accurate at the expense of the torso and head, with head lock being pretty much the opposite. I could see it being a little off from straight just because of the innacuracies of the method. What pager says about setting the hieght better might help. Also, what scaling mode are you in?

[coral cairn]

But you said it moves up and down?

[robust tangle]

It does but they both look pretty much accurate it’s just awkward knee bending that looks problematic

I’m just not sure why the floor isn’t just rendered lower in headlock instead of making the knees bend

[lethal light]

are you in hieght scaling mode?

[coral cairn]

In theory there shouldn't be a difference

Imo there always is

[robust tangle]

Or just render me in the floor and Let me place space up

[coral cairn]

Happens to me a bit in both

[robust tangle]

It used to just let your feet phase through the floor and you could fix it with playspace adjustment

[lethal light]

that's fair, like I said I use heads + hip mode always, so I don't have to deal with these specific issues, just thought it might be a good idea to try the other one if only one has been attempted

[lethal light]

this still happens, no?

[robust tangle]

I’ll test tomorrow and see if there’s anything I can do I just wanna be able to use headlock without knee bend

A normal standing stance looks dopey

[lethal light]

is this a personal avatar or just all avatars?

[vestal oriole]

Had the same oddness with knee, not really tested it much

[robust tangle]

Just mine honestly But it only happened with the introduction of headlock

I’m sure there’s something wrong with my armature

[lethal light]

could you not use head + hips mode and adjust the armature to fit your proportions?

[coral cairn]

I think a useful test will be to

1. enable legacy ik calibration
2. put something visible on your avatar at the height where the viewpoint is
3. see if the height of your viewpoint matches up with your actual viewpoint before calibration

I have a feeling it'll be just a smidge off and that's what we're seeing.

[robust tangle]

I prefer head only mode. So I just noticed it still happens in three point only mode in non-full body so I think there’s something seriously wrong with my armature

Hip lock in fullbody “fixes” the issue

[lethal light]

could post a pic of the armature, someone could probably pick out anything too eggregious, but I think pager is close to the money on this one

[robust tangle]

How do I enable legacy calibration again?

[lethal light]

it is a tickbox in the ik settings menu

[robust tangle]

And yeah properly but if that’s off it means my real world height is off then? My view point is correct

[coral cairn]

https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/full-body-tracking
--legacy-fbt-calibrate in launch options

[robust tangle]

Oh just non beta

Oh that

[coral cairn]

I guess it just means real world height is off then? like the actual top of your head doesn't matter much but but you should probably scale your user real height so the viewpoint lines up.

[robust tangle]

Guess I’m still lying about my height on Beta then lol

[coral cairn]

only if it's actually off in calibration

you don't actually need legacy fbt calibrate, you could measure the same thing by seeing how far from the floor your feet are in normal mode, but that's hard since it moves up and down whenever you move your head.

Hard to measure something you have no real way of looking at

[robust tangle]

whaaa... just went from one extream to the other on real life height and they all make the knees bend

only thing that stops it is hip lock mode

[lethal light]

xD tis like that sometimes

[coral cairn]

did you just change it by one inch?

[vital inlet]

check your height

hm

still have my problem tho

it wasnt steamvr

it shows all 10 trackers

reinstalled the software

reinstalled the beta

no, im not using mods

it was working perfectly yesterday with all 10 trackers

when loading i can see my joystick moving when i move it but when i try move in game it makes my avatar float up a small bit but doesnt make me walk

[robust tangle]

it was sitting mode 💀

[lethal light]

lmao

[vital inlet]

oof

[lethal light]

wait, can sitting mode even be enabled with fbt?

[vital inlet]

yes

well i think?

in a older ver

i forgot

[lethal light]

what does it even do tho? besides breaking things

[vital inlet]

been doing 5 hours of debugging too try figure out the issue

im starting think a vrchat update broke it

[lethal light]

can you try it with three tracking points?

[vital inlet]

yeah it works fine

[lethal light]

5?

[vital inlet]

if i do 9 tracking points it works

doing 10 it doesnt

theres 11 total but the other one is the lighthouse too track all the points

so that shouldnt be causing issues

[lethal light]

send me a pic of your steamvr panel thingy, the one that shows the trackers n stuff

[vital inlet]

uhh

im in bed rn lmao

[lethal light]

xD

fair enough

[vital inlet]

ill send it like tommorow

its on my main pc

[lethal light]

yep

[vital inlet]

i may just uninstall everything then reinstall

see if that fixes it

[lethal light]

could also try and verify files

[vital inlet]

i have

i always do that first

[lethal light]

I would have expected so, just throwing it out

I will try tonight and see if I can replicate your issue again (as I had it one time)

[vital inlet]

alr

this hasnt been updated https://github.com/SDraw/driver_kinectV2

nor has alot

but in steamvr you can see all trackers operate perfectly

so i think it is vrchat itself

[lethal light]

yep, probably

[vital inlet]

i mean

there was a update last night

may been that

[lethal light]

could always try to downgrade it

[vital inlet]

how?

[lethal light]

ohh wait, for steamvr?

[vital inlet]

nono

vrchat

[lethal light]

the ik had an update?

[vital inlet]

it shown the usual "update"

[vital inlet]

yeah

ik 2.0 update

was a small one

but thats done somthing

[lethal light]

ohhh, I thought they hadn't updated yet

[vital inlet]

some reason for me it did

it shown the update button

[lethal light]

never mind, I don't think you can downgrade that

[vital inlet]

yeah

would probs not work with the network

[lethal light]

ehh... it probably would

at least in this case

[vital inlet]

maybe

dunno

ill wait a few days for a update come out

[lethal light]

forgot, not gonna be on vr tonight, so tomorrow if you still having the problem

[lethal light]

could also make a canny request

[vital inlet]

?

[lethal light]

vrchat cany saying there is an issue with movement and 10 kinect trackers

[vital inlet]

it may started after connecting my nari ultimate, but it couldnt be

[vital inlet]

ah

[lethal light]

try removing it

[vital inlet]

its only audio..

[lethal light]

.......

[vital inlet]

so its super unlikely for that to be messing with tracking

[lethal light]

what are the controller ones again

xD

[vital inlet]

rift s

?

[lethal light]

I mixed up the product

nah

[vital inlet]

oh

[lethal light]

razer has some gamepad controller thingys

[vital inlet]

yeah ik

i disconnected my xbox controller

just see if its that

not that either

[lethal light]

could see if there is anything unneccessary in the steamvr addons

[vital inlet]

yeah

anyways ima sleep

[lethal light]

night night~

[vital inlet]

night

[robust tangle]

ok viewpoint or worldscale is different in halfbody vs headlock fullbody. somsthing is inconsistant here

I think worldscale is changing

Hm... maybe my neck pivot is too far back?

[lethal light]

hmm... try moving that forward

[robust tangle]

worried about nightmare deforms lol

[lethal light]

I think you want the neck head spine hips chest (and upper chest) all straight

[lethal light]

hmm?

what deforms are you worried about?

[kindred saffron]

M

[nimble storm]

sometimes when I start the game on the ik beta while using valve index + vive trackers I get these phantom controllers that don't got away, even after finishing my avatar calibration

recalibrating, avatar changing, no matter what I do these phantoms appear and wont go away until restart the client

[warm lintel]

Ah okay thanks bought another tracker than for 8 point

[warm lintel]

I’ve also had that happen.

[copper trench]

post it to the canny or it never happened

[robust tangle]

https://vrchat.canny.io/bug-reports/p/798-vive-controller-outlines-always-display @nimble storm looks like they've got it marked as Complete

Needs to be re-opened. Just file a dupe. i guess

Are you sure you can't have this happen on the live client?

[nimble storm]

personally this bug has only ever happened to me on this IK beta branch

[round osprey]

I've had this twice on beta and never before

[warm lintel]

I’ve personally had it occasionally since October

But very rarely

Like once or twice every month and I play every day

[cyan flume]

Not sure where to put bug reports but I wanted to mention that the animations take over your legs when falling semi randomly. So going downstairs via walking through my playspace my character looks like theyre floating sometimes. Same goes for the jump button. It will randomly disable my legs while jumping. I think a button to disable the animations for all things including walking, falling, and jumping would be the best solution.

Love the new ik and calibration though

Sorry just found where to report in pins

It keeps giving me a 504 so I'll have to report it later

[warm lintel]

I don’t really think that’s a bug

[tribal sandal]

Wait, how do we accesss the beta on quest? I cant figure it out

[frosty loom]

Like those ?

[cyan flume]

I can understand that perspective, but I think it would be much easier to show how it can be a problem if I had some footage of it.

[cyan flume]

Sorry my unity knowledge isnt so great but it seems like this could be what I'm referring too.

Im sure there's a purpose for it but for anyone who uses alternative locomotion like infinite walking or even just has a large playspace this feature/bug is pretty annoying

The "bug" part is that it isn't consistent

Sometimes it will have the leg animations while jumping and falling and sometimes it won't.

Avatars can be a factor with this but it's shown to be inconsistent even on a single avatar

[frosty loom]

Pretty sure it's all velocity based

[cyan flume]

I know what you mean but I promise it sometimes just doesn't work

I'll try and get a video tonight so you don't have to take my word for it

[frosty loom]

[cyan flume]

Thanks for your interest and support 🙇‍♂️

I pretty much only infinite walk so I run into this problem constantly

[warm lintel]

I personally don’t see a problem. The game is made to be that way. As Rubbick pointed out turning off 3 point and 6 point forced locomotion would probably achieve what you want to achieve.

Also can disable locomotion entirely in unity as a toggle

[keen grove]

how good is the IK beta right now?

[cyan flume]

Are you talking about disabling those options on the avatar itself?

[warm lintel]

Yeah

[cyan flume]

Didn't know that was an option I haven't worked on my main avatar since 2019

A button would be preferable but if that's the solution I guess Ill just have to modify every avatar I use?

And again if it's meant to do that then it still inconsistent and doesn't appear to be working as intended (this will be more clear once I get a clip of how its inconsistent)

[final raven]

Woah, update incoming~ 👀

[clever thicket]

[dusk anvil]

fear

i wonder if they'll merge the 2 betas before release.

[raw shale]

[crimson mason]

😫

[mystic urchin]

Doubt it, if anything they'll released AD before IK Beta :>

[dusk anvil]

AAH

announcement jumpscare

[oak pendant]

Current plan is IK-Beta stays in live network compatible beta through the entire Avatar Dynamics open beta process

[ionic heron]

announcement go b o o

spoomk

[oak pendant]

Once Avatar Dynamics is released, then IK-beta + AD would be tested

[dusk anvil]

sick plan

[final moss]

lesgoo

[strong nova]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feedback-elbows-for-hands-on-hips-position-looks-awkward May need to be updated to In Progress, then. 🙂

[oak pendant]

Ah yeah thanks!

[strong nova]

No, no. Thank you all! ❤️

[frosty loom]

Stop being in the bad timezone

[crimson mason]

dude arent you like.. also in it

[frosty loom]

[strong nova]

-Time zones are cringe-

[dusk anvil]

time zones are for nerds i live on the sun where there is 1 timezone and that timezone is FIRE TIME

[final moss]

4am gang

[static kite]

3AM here as well xD

[mystic urchin]

best timezone

[final forge]

4 am

[final raven]

- Measure-by-arm now uses the old legacy scale factor
Curious if this means my feet trackers will no longer be below my feet when using scale by arms and using irl height just like with legacy ik.

[ionic heron]

timezones are cringe, delete time

[vital inlet]

Nothing specific to mention but did want to say that new IK is working a million times better for me in fbt so thank you for all the work on this.

[oak pendant]

The intent there is to avoid the scaling confusion when people had the new scale factor. So if you set your user heal height the same as legacy, it should behave the same as legacy in that mode. Let me (canny) know if it doesn't

[vital inlet]

did notice that saving IK between avatars is marked planned, is there any word on whether that will be included in the beta before full release?

[dusk anvil]

pst cringe!!!!

[strong nova]

Oh, I heard it's easier to walk on the sun when it's night time 😊

[dusk anvil]

10 thousand lions would win against the sun if they try attacking at night

[strong nova]

Only if they're on the IK beta.

[oak pendant]

Ideally that would be tested in beta. It's just down on the list because it doesn't require as much feedback and iteration as all these other things

[dusk anvil]

Further improvements and tuning to elbow clip avoidance
woo yeah oh yeah

[final raven]

Will do. My main model that I use is extremely proportional so when ik-beta was first dropped it was interesting to see when my feet trackers were no longer lined up where they should be despite using my irl height settings.

[empty solar]

with regards to this patch does this fix the hand drag and head "lock" problems when using forced locomotion in full body

[vital inlet]

Awesome, thank you so much! That is very exciting to hear. I think nearly everyone I've talked to who uses fbt was hoping for this.

[tame pewter]

now i wonder, do i immersive scale for height or wingspan
@coral cairn what are thoughts

[ancient geode]

um lol

love new elbows lol

[final raven]

Usually in my case, I scale by height when in FBT and scale by arms when in 3pt~ Of course though I'll usually change it up differently if I happen to switch into an avatar with unusual proportions.

[dusk anvil]

completely normal arm behavior

[ionic heron]

hyooman arms
also https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20

[coral cairn]

well I've already updated the dev version to match the legacy scaling by default but the old value is there as a toggle.

Regardless of what the scaling ends up being, you'll be able to use immersive scaler to
a) match height and arm scaling (default), or
b) put in your own scaling somehow, with the expectation that you use height scaling. Not 100% sure how this will work. I might include the old-new scaling as a preset (just uncheck legacy scaling r.n.)

[ancient geode]

making canny now but its funny

[final raven]

Will test this out myself once I get back on VR in an hours time but uh oh, canny time? 👀

[ancient geode]

ya the elbow ajustment i think is to sensitive

[oak pendant]

The intent is that scale by arms is for people who got confused by or didn't like the new scale factor. So they have a simple way to have it "same as always" and then if you really care about proportional fitting you'd use scale by height to automatically have your feet fit, then iteratively scale your avatar's arms in blender until you like the length of them

[ancient geode]

seems to only happen on my left arm

[dusk anvil]

left arm build different

[coral cairn]

My current preference will be the old-new scaling factor until I figure out how to best customize stuff further. I'd probably want somewhere like 75% between the old scaling and the new personally but that's at the point where everybody will be different

[ancient geode]

heli arm

[dusk anvil]

establish FLIGHT

[final raven]

helikopter helikopter

[oak pendant]

Can you test on other avatars too? Also make sure to leave info in your canny about what vr setup you have (particularly your controllers)

if you find it's only that avatar if there's a public version available would be helpful to troubleshoot

That could potentially be it trying to activate elbow trackers that exist in steamvr but aren't tracking also, if you have extra devices in steamvr active. The tracker assignment processes still needs a cleanup pass

[empty solar]

wait Kung does this update fix this?

[ancient geode]

ya i testing others now and will its not as bad never had it break like that before on that avatar. seems to happen with all yuuko bases found a public one will put id in canny as well avtr_c0718d47-afdc-4752-9e61-7960c25cf269

[final raven]

Oh? Can you clarify on this?

[thick thorn]

question for the beta on pc

do i just like switch to none on steam vr?

or the ik beta

[oak pendant]

It might, there are a lot of different locomotion controllers people use. But I think that issue should be at least improved

[final raven]

ik-beta for ik related stuff

[thick thorn]

im still confused

so which one do i do?

[final raven]

ik-beta

open beta is for avatar dynamic stuff but that branch is not live compatible

[thick thorn]

which one is live compatible ?

[lilac wave]

IK beta would be

[raw shale]

ik-beta is live compatible

[thick thorn]

oh ok

thanks

im brain dead so took a while but thank you guys

[tame pewter]

how you do those inline code/quote blocks

[raw shale]

` before and after

or, are you referring to something in the announcement

[lilac wave]

` inline `
or ``` full formatting```

[final raven]

Basically surround the text you want code block with a single ` on each side

[tame pewter]

this
thank you

[final raven]

or if you want fuller code block it's three ` on each side

[oak pendant]

thanks for the avatar link. I can see what's causing it. The bone orientations are pretty wild. Usually they'd point along their y-axis. These seem to point along negative x

[empty solar]

So if you had a custom locomotion layer and you moved forward or backward the arms dragged a bit more than where they are relative to where your hands are IRL. As for the head the head would lock position too. So if you looked up and you were moving your model would be looking forward instead of where you are actually looking in VR

[oak pendant]

This might be something that gets fixed, but might not be. It's similar to the upside down hip type situation

[final raven]

Huh, I use franada's gogo loco controller on my avatars and I don't believe I've noticed any of these issues. Will take a look again once I get back on~

[oak pendant]

I made efforts to improve this situation, as far as I was able to test, it's at least as good as legacy (which has a small amount of drift when you let an animation pull the avatar around)

I'm very interested in people testing with custom locomotion layers etc though to see how it goes

[empty solar]

I'll be able to test it properly tomorrow or whenever I can

[ancient geode]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-elbow-breaks-on-some-avatars
made a post anyway idk in every verson of the beta and live this never was a issue if i find more avatars with it will add to canny post

[strong sundial]

I feel like the issue is a bit inherently different since it's not directly warned against in the docs like the upside down hip and also hasn't broken before (unlike like the upside down hip with the first ik beta)

[tame pewter]

unitys humanoid avatar system is pretty resilient to weird bone normals, have met quite a few people who didn't know that it was even a thing
blender does a pretty good job with automatic bone roll tho too

[gleaming canyon]

"- Measure-by-arm now uses the old legacy scale factor" before the update i was able to fit every of my avatars well without scaling but now i have to readjust my height. i can't kneel properly like i did before without weird bending

[coral cairn]

Is there already a canny for collecting scaling by arm comments?

[strong sundial]

I'm guessing your avatars use heels?
I say this because atleast personally the previous beta scale factor worked a lot better for all of my heeled avatars. The legacy scale factor in this beta causes issues with them

[ancient geode]

ya im curious how many other avatars have that as it wasent a issue in the past

[gleaming canyon]

both heels and non heels fit me perfectly with the previous version. now with the legacy i have to go back to scaling manually each one

[tame pewter]

its not hard to fix in blender, automatic bone roll is usually good enough
avatars that had their skeletons improperly mirrored probably will have issues

[strong sundial]

Okay, so it's both. Interesting.
With the reasoning that Kung provided I doubt we could get it reverted, but I'm tempted to atleast make a canny requesting an option to change between the two scale factors

[ancient geode]

ya seems like the issue also explains why its on one side

[gleaming canyon]

usually i was able to kneel and do a back bend easily without issue but i can't with the update without it messing up unless i rescale my height

i wish that part be revert. it was perfectly fine for me

[tame pewter]

could be nice to add scale factor in launch options or .config, as the qm is filling up quite fast

[strong sundial]

The problem with a config/launch option is that it's very inconvenient for testing. Finding the right FBT settings for an avatar is best done ingame and options like that shouldn't require a restart

[coral cairn]

There's an argument to be made that having a better scaling factor for people new to the game is more important than having things be the same for people who had scaled avatars before.
At the end of the day all other scaling adjustments for arm scaling may as well be done with height changing + playspace

[strong sundial]

I disagree with the second point. Having the do playspace/height adjustment every single time you want to bind in is annoying and inconvenient

[tame pewter]

load on avatar init, kinda like osc json

still a pain, but its just an idea

[strong sundial]

Yeah, it'd be atleast something.
I feel like the best option would be to have a "advanced FBT options" button in the big main menu. But we haven't gotten the new main menu yet so I don't think we'll get any buttons added rn

[tame pewter]

probably fits this canny
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/provide-in-depth-ik-configuration-options-for-enthusiasts

[oak pendant]

The initial changes to the scale factor were to provide a more accurate fit, but it also confused or caused trouble for a lot of people. If we weren't providing the scale-by-height option it probably wouldn't have been reverted. But I now view scale-by-arms as the mode for people who either want it the way it was, or don't like it when arms under-reach due to not having torso leaning now.

Scale-by-height would be the mode for anyone who cares about proportions and customization

which leaves room for everyone left in a hard situation by the scale-by-arms change to have that back as the legacy scale factor

[strong sundial]

Yeah, I understand that. I agree that the default scaling shouldn't be confusing anyone.
But why can't we just get an option to change the scale factor ourselves? Ik enthusiasts could actually adjust it to perfectly fit their avatars

[gleaming canyon]

honestly for scale by arms before legacy patch worked fine for me on all avatars in most movements. with the other options i can't get the same result without rescaling my height over again. I mean we have the option rn for old legacy could it just apply to only that with scale to arm legacy instead of the new IK

[coral cairn]

With most avatars, you'll now have two options
a) scale by arms - giving noticeably too large scaling (better to err this way)
b) scale by height - giving noticeably too small scaling

Before scale by arms was much closer but it was pretty good and anecdotally people who tried it liked it more.
Most people don't have a scaled avatar and tuning it by height isn't an option (don't know unity, etc.), so there's no easy middle ground.

Also I know it often goes unsaid but thanks a ton for letting us know your thought process on all this and taking the time. It really does help.

[lilac sandal]

for me i had finally been able to use my models without an offset with perfect scaling on scale by arms before the most recent change

[tame pewter]

i slide now

hm

its like my feet ik targets the place i was standing before i moved

[dusk anvil]

cha cha real smooth

sliide to the left

sliide to the right

[misty palm]

LMAO

[tame pewter]

yeah i think thats exactly whats happening

[harsh lagoon]

friends avatars arm is really broken with the latest ik update

[tame pewter]

land swimming

[harsh lagoon]

uh huh

their arm and elbow isnt following the way the other arm is

it flails and seems almost backwards, its happening on this and another avatar

it do a hurt

[coral cairn]

same as this?

[harsh lagoon]

oh yeah

same thing

[coral cairn]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-elbow-breaks-on-some-avatars

[harsh lagoon]

gratsi

[oak pendant]

It's hard to give a satisfying answer to the "why can't we have an option to ___" question. I'd refer you to that canny NotAKid linked. But in short every option has multiple costs: in UI space, baby steps to the tipping point that the application looks like an airliner cockpit, dev time for both implementation and maintenance (which can prevent or slow new features), new user confusion/give-up tipping point mind-share, etc. But when an individual user is faced with the single question of "do you want the option to X, or would you rather not have the option" They'd choose to have the option every time forever right until all the hidden little costs that options incur pile up to unreasonable levels. That doesn't mean that options can't be added. It just means it needs to be done more carefully than it might appear when looking at each potential option as a one-off. If things area really really important there's a good chance they'd get an option at some point. If asking my own personal view (not a promise that something gets implemented by the team when reaching such a threshold) I think that if you want a sense where things sit if you compare a "Can we have an option to X" canny post to one that doesn't require a new option, and multiply the votes on the option one down to 20%~30% of what it has, you'll get a sense for where it might stand relative to other posts. BTW personally if it was just for myself, I'd love to have a whole UI page full of things to tune and poke at for FBT and IK. So yeah go vote on that canny. But it'd need quite a bit of upvoting to overcome the high option-cost it would have.

Also don't want to shut anyone down from suggesting an idea for an option if they've got an idea. Just doing my best to give an answer to what can't really have a satisfying answer.

[harsh lagoon]

i wouldnt mind if there was like a secret menu or page with advanced options like that, though i understand that would have issues in of itself

[final raven]

Noticed my left arm doesn't seem to extend fully anymore when standing at attention. 🤔

[oak pendant]

Is this in scale-by-height mode?

[final raven]

Yup.

[oak pendant]

It's likely the slight added motion range in the shoulders then

[tame pewter]

made a canny
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-desktop-feet-ik-targets-previous-still-position-for-a-second

[final raven]

Ah alright, I see~

[oak pendant]

Thanks, by the way are you using default locomotion? Or a custom locomotion animator?

Also if default, SDK2 or SDK3?

I'm unable to reproduce the issue on desktop trying a bunch of avatars

[tame pewter]

Custom animator. Its split for Desktop/VR/FBT but the Desktop bit is pretty basic other than adding Xiexies jump/fall animations.

[tame pewter]

I believe SDK2 world. @shrewd phoenix i forgot
I assume the default alien is SDK2, which I can reproduce in.

[oak pendant]

oh interesting, I couldn't reproduce it on the alien myself

do you have a link to that world?

[acoustic snow]

i just wanna say i appreciate the transparency

[tame pewter]

Alternate Dimension ∗Old∗ by @shrewd phoenix
https://vrch.at/0vkfrjw

[raw wadi]

That's how people rig in Maya I think

[harsh lagoon]

this is probably related to my friends issue with their elbows spinning

my arms seem fine other than this new thing

[tame pewter]

it is also happening in vrchat home too

[carmine gate]

this is on vive/tundra? and here I thought the kinect had finally given in

[oak pendant]

I tested on alien in the world you linked and couldn't reproduce it... could you try restarting VRChat while in the alien avatar?

[carmine gate]

Though, I need to check rq
I think there might be a strong difference between Kinect V1 and V2 when it comes to handling elbow rotation if the arm is stretched out

[tame pewter]

still occurs

[oak pendant]

There are a few painful poses where it'll break. Palms straight forward, fingers straight down, twisting pinkies together is one. Hand out to the side, thumb twisted to point straight back and twisted a bit further is another. Do you feel like this palm-forward pose is possible to occur accidently within normal range of motion?

[harsh lagoon]

for me yeah i'd say so

if i were handing out an item or patting someone with the back of my hand it can happen

[oak pendant]

Does it happen when your fingers aren't also pointed down? It's the fingers simultaneously down that make it painful

[harsh lagoon]

it does only happen at more extreme angles though so not too often i feel

uhh

like my avatars fingers?

[oak pendant]

hopefully your avatar's fingers point in roughly the same direction as IRL

[raw wadi]

Doc. I feel pain when doing X. Then don't do that.

[harsh lagoon]

yeah they do xD maybe a bit slanted but nothing bad

[oak pendant]

I'll give it another test later on if I can remember. You can make a canny for it if you'd like. When I was testing before I knew of that pose breaking but considered it mostly outside of normal range of motion

[harsh lagoon]

if i move my wrist as if i were reading a watch it twists

okai

i got 2 more to wrack your brain with

[oak pendant]

If you give video examples with poses in normal range of motion that's extra helpful

[harsh lagoon]

friends elbow is moving weird when they 1. turn neck and 2. extend leg

[harsh lagoon]

give me a moment ill have that for ya

[willow iris]

I was just about to report this but Taco seems to have it covered. It effects motions like putting a closed fist on your hip, twisting your elbows from a palm down to palm up position, and laying on your side with your head resting on your palm

Some motion is to be expected in those instances but it's waaaay exaggerated since the update

[oak pendant]

It's actually the slight extension of the arm that's causing this (even due to the neck turning). This isn't ideal but it's currently allowing the hands-on-hips pose that people wanted without having the gimbal lock issues with hands behind back that people don't want that legacy has

[harsh lagoon]

ah so just happens then

[raw wadi]

[oak pendant]

If this happens often I'll adjust to find a different to address the poses that are issues

[final raven]

Huh, I see~

[carmine gate]

@hearty raft IK-Beta is not on Quest, you most likely meant to post this in #open-beta-discussion

As for the issue, if you have a shared account on the Quest, reinstall VRChat on that other account and it should fix itself.

[oak pendant]

Does that avatar have normal bone orientations?

[harsh lagoon]

aha im not alone xD

[raw wadi]

I remember A pose have some IK issue at some point in the past.

[harsh lagoon]

as for my avatar, far as i know ive followed the rig requirements pretty dang spot on, no weird hacks or angles

[oak pendant]

Oh, it's likely an issue that needs fixing then

I missed it, did you set up a canny? and if so can @final raven put that video in there too?

[harsh lagoon]

oh heck lemme do that

just a moment

[raw wadi]

@final raven try one of my avatar am curious.

[oak pendant]

Sorry got side tracked, I still can't reproduce this. I'll have to wait and see if more people have issues in the canny.

[tame pewter]

the only avatar that does not give me this issue is one that disables feet tracking on land using default SDK3 locomotion

but im guessing thats cause it disables the feet tracking for that moment

[oak pendant]

Did you happen to toggle into legacy IK mode in VR before going into desktop?

[tame pewter]

possibly

[tame pewter]

ill check

[oak pendant]

Thanks, that's helpful, yeah those are some normal looking bones. Ok that pose will need addressing

[final raven]

any avatar?

[oak pendant]

I'll forget about this later for sure if it's not in a canny though, so I guess just watch out for if ItsTacosDude makes one

[raw wadi]

Sure

[final raven]

@harsh lagoon ping me when you do pls~

[tame pewter]

measure-wingspan and legacy ik- the IK issue occurs in VR (non fbt) as well

[oak pendant]

Thanks, can you toggle into Beta-IK and see if the issues go away?

[tame pewter]

it did

[oak pendant]

I'm beginning to believe that I didn't make Legacy mode fully legacy when doing some fixes for animation blending

[tame pewter]

issue is not present with beta ik

[tame pewter]

ill fix my canny to correct for new findings

[harsh lagoon]

just my pov of the thing

[oak pendant]

Ok that explains it, and yeah I think I know what I need to do to fix it. Also I should probably force new IK when in desktop because that toggle isn't visible in that mode

[oak pendant]

Thanks!

[final raven]

Ah was desktop mode still on legacy-ik so to speak?

[oak pendant]

Yeah, the toggle still has an effects in theory, though desktop mode should basically be the same between the two

[harsh lagoon]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-elbow-twists-at-some-angles @final raven

sorry that took me so long i was busy

[oak pendant]

but that's one of the things I want to get testing on in this beta is if legacy mode is properly functioning as the actual live build does too

[raw wadi]

Seen fine to me? or am missing something? Those don't have twist bone, so the deformation in the elbow when the palm is up is expected. But yes, yours really get funky.

[tame pewter]

fixed on desktop once i swapped to Beta IK from VR

[oak pendant]

Thanks for running through all that testing, that was really helpful. I know what to do to address it now

[final raven]

included my stuff in the canny

[harsh lagoon]

not all my avatars react the same as this, some of them, the elbows tips just get brought together

[final raven]

Your avatars were fine yeah

[tame pewter]

should the IK setting set in VR persisting into Desktop be thrown on the canny anyways?

[raw wadi]

Maybe a A pose issue ?@final raven

[tame pewter]

if not, ill just add it to a comment on the other canny just to have things noted down

[final raven]

No idea :v

[oak pendant]

I was aware of it, I think the canny you have there about the locomotion issue will serve as enough of a reminder

[tame pewter]

[harsh lagoon]

this is likely the same thing me and sal are having but ive just noticed when i look around it also messes up my elbows a lot

[oak pendant]

are you in 3pt there?

[harsh lagoon]

its heccin weird

yeah all my stuff is 3pt

on a CV1 if that matters

guess i should have mentioned that sooner

[oak pendant]

the slight rotation is causing the arm extension to change, (and it sticks because 3pt won't turn until you turn your head far enough) so yeah it's the same thing as when you just extend your arms in the other video

[harsh lagoon]

ah i see

well i dont know exactly what changed in tonights update but overall it seems my arms are generally much weirder than ever

[raw wadi]

If you have the file check if it's in a A pose natively

[harsh lagoon]

my avi is T posed and same issue as sal

[raw wadi]

t pose in the fbx?

Or force t pose in unity

[oak pendant]

I'm not convinced it's exactly the same actually. I haven't seen the issue on your avatar while your palms are faced straight up, @final raven also had sausage twisting at the elbow

[harsh lagoon]

this?

[oak pendant]

The issue doesn't occur there until you point your palms forward / fingers down

[harsh lagoon]

mmm mmm ok

ive also just had this happen while sitting down

seems to happen more downwards, hand is at a completely normal angle for this

[oak pendant]

yeah, stick that one in the canny too. Can you take a screenshot of your avatar in: https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2 and share it in the canny as well?

[harsh lagoon]

SHOULD ADD it happens when i move that arm half way past my middle of my avatar, something i just now noticed

sure thing yis

new canny post?

[oak pendant]

I think same one is ok

[harsh lagoon]

okay

how would i put a video in the canny?

[oak pendant]

right click the download icon in discord and do copy link

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/946881839400882196/953157870143299644/2022-03-15_00-07-35.mp4 is the video you shared

[harsh lagoon]

okay

[raw wadi]

And there is me. That try to fit all the information in a 8 mb gif when doing a canny.

[harsh lagoon]

will put in canny

[oak pendant]

Oh boy... looks like bone roll on the arms matters again. Yeah I'll have to find another way to handle the twist

[harsh lagoon]

hecc is thst a bad thing for us or for you? xD

[oak pendant]

For me I guess, I mean it's my job so not really "bad" but can't have avatar's so sensitive over non-zero bone roll

lots of avatars are like that and it's not really reasonable to require

[harsh lagoon]

mhm mhm

[lilac wave]

I'd like to say that this beta for me at least has solved a few persistent and annoying issues that only majorly affected my avatars for some reason, I'm excited for further work and improvement in it, since I really enjoy not having to rotate my hip tracker 12 degrees counterclockwise every time I calibrate on my avatars
I've seen some issues with the elbows liking to bend more to the right on some avatars, but it looks like people have already been sharing issues that are related to that.

[oak pendant]

Glad you're enjoying the improvements. I'll try to keep more improvements coming until (and after) this releases

[carmine gate]

This probably has no use, but it did teach me just now, that Kinect prefers t-shirts (well, short/rolled up sleeves)

More elbow-centric testing around 1min in, 1m35 I roll up my sleeves

The avatar uses the default proportions from stable IMScaler, I am using arm-length measurement, and Lock Head.
https://streamable.com/n8ho2t

[strong sundial]

As others have said, thank you for the transparency Kung. This is a more thorough response then I have gotten from any other vrc dev when I've asked a question.
(Also, sorry for this being a bit late of a response. I really wanted to take some time to read through your response and create a meaningful reply. It's also a bit of a wall of text)

I understand the worry of adding more options, too many can become an ui nightmare. It's hard to have a balance between new features and more options.
But for FBT/IK, I believe it requires atleast a few additional options. It is inherently experimental right now. But not everything has to be adjustable right now, a full page of options can wait. I don't even think it would be practical to try to implement anything that thorough with how limited the amount of FBT users are. It would be wasted dev time.
But atleast like 2 or 3 "advanced" options for current known pain points like (for example) scale factor, elbow ratio to body positioning, and what parts of avatars bend to accommodate locked points would help. Just a few options would go a long way to make this beta feel more "finalized" and ready to use on 90% of avatars.
The beta scaling factor really showed an useful alternative IK option that some of us would benefit from. Having it suddenly changed with no option to revert/change without a popular canny post just feels... shitty. And the playspace mover/height method to get similar results isn't viable for regular use.

If you managed to make it through the wall of text, I would like to atleast ask one thing. Do you think a seperate canny requesting a scale factor option would be useful/considered? Or should I just let it be and hope that the big post by Knah eventually gets more consideration down the line?

[oak pendant]

I think a separate post requesting the option would make sense (for scale factor). It would help gauge what kinds of things people want. And also you can vote up the existing ones for elbow clip avoidance options and spine bending config. I think scale factor is a slightly less likely one though just because although it's not exactly ideal, the difficulty of offsetting playspace and using a custom User Real Height is about on par with the level of enthusiast that would need a custom scaling ratio that couldn't be solved by scale-by-height and adjusting arm length. But that's just my expectation that people would be more interested in options that provide functionality they don't currently have a way to configure (for example adjusting the elbow clip avoidance)

[strong sundial]

Okay, I'll look into making the post and we can see what the interest is like. I understand your expectations and I can see it. Other options may just have to take priority.
I think an ideal scenario would just be more regular IK updates. Like atleast a small update every 2 months or so that either adjusts a pain point or adds an "advanced" option. Then stuff like a scale factor setting could come later down the line after more major settings have been addressed.
But that's just my personal ideal thinking, I don't really work on Ik systems and you are the dev at the end of the day.

Also, just thank you in general for this beta. It's been nice seeing this number of changes at once. And being able to just openly discuss it. It's a breath of fresh air compared to previous Ik updates adding 1 or 2 small things then getting nothing for a year. You've said before you plan to do future stuff with IK and you seem to have real passion for it. Im excited for the future of FBT/IK in vrc with you working on it

[oak pendant]

I'm glad you're enjoying the beta. It's actually a bit of an experiment having such a long running beta that covers an update when not even all the features are implemented yet and changes come in on the fly like this. I personally wanted to do it this way because FBT in particular is a very personal thing for people, I mean it's how your own body moves. So I wanted to get granular feedback on incremental changes. I'm glad it worked out with the timing of other updates and agreement of the team that we could do it this way this time.

[strong sundial]

Yeah, honestly, I kinda love a beta like this. It allows us to actually test changes without having to miss friends on live.
I know it'll heavily depend on any future Ik updates, but I would love if we just got this style of beta for any future ik changes. It's good for experimenting and getting good long-term feedback

[hot fulcrum]

I don't expect it happen that soon but how is your interest to 11 point tracking by now @oak pendant ?
You got some comments on canny by now so curious of knowing what you think.

[tiny token]

Poggers

[rustic berry]

lmao

[hazy sleet]

Muh elbows

Don't have that issue on my full custom avatar. Guess I did something right with the armature

[oak pendant]

That one's gonna require a decent amount of experimenting and some internal testing before I can give a definite response. I can see that the interest is very strong for sure, so will at least be doing those experiments. Just had a bigger list of small things to get to before digging in to another thing that could likely take a bit of time away from the current polish pass. And with how the elbows are so rig-sensitive now, that'll take another pass for sure. I'm planning to take a look at more-than-6-point improvements once I can get through some of this other stuff though.

[oak pendant]

It appears to be sensitive to both bone roll and non y-axis oriented bones. I'll be going over a decent amount of the current elbow behavior because of that sensitivity.

[hot fulcrum]

Thanks for response, yeah I understand it takes time, no hurry anyway. Will look forward to see how you find it once there is chance of looking into it.

[tiny token]

What’s the world that shows the coordinates of the bones?

[oak pendant]

https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2

[regal cargo]

Heeeeo, I have a question, It seems that my avatar's arms no longer extend fully when I stretch my arms out in front or when I am standing, in the previous beta version it was working perfectly, do I have to fix something or is this a beta issue? This use to happen a lot on with the old IK and I was really liking it

[strong sundial]

Are you using "measure by arm-span" or "measure by height"?

[regal cargo]

I tried both

But usually I use height

[strong sundial]

Hmmm, then it could be related to the changes to elbows or the changes to shoulders. People have been having trouble with the elbow changes, though those are more so the elbows bending with weird angles

The only other change that would be related only affected "measure by arm-span". Since they reverted the scale factor on arm-span to what it was with legacy IK. So it now scales you differently to your avatar. And that's caused some avatars that worked well with it to have issues with arm length and distance to the ground

[lilac sandal]

They need to put the scale factor on "by arm span" back to the improved version and not legacy

[devout current]

They put it back to legacy so people can use the new IK within getting confused of the new scaling

If they want the new scaling they can use scaling per height

[lean badger]

I can also report having one avatar with wierd elbow bending in the larest beta

[lilac sandal]

Some of us had better results with that scaling though.

[strong sundial]

It's why I made a canny https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-add-an-option-to-revert-scale-factor-to-previous-non-legacy-value

The beta value works better for some avatars. The legacy one works better for others. We should have both

[lean badger]

The elbow scaling has slightly better results in general for me (still a lot of avatars with too short-feeling arms thpugh)

but for this avatar, stuff like this happens

seems to be avatar specific though

[lilac sandal]

The model in question matches my irl height. Only with improved arm am i capable of using it with an ingame height set to my irl height. Otherwise i have to resort to using an offset thru ovr as and a shorter height to get the same results

[lean badger]

elbows point way too much inward (6-point)

add elbow trackees though and it works fine

[strong sundial]

By height scaling is very different then the previous arm-span scaling. With height scaling, any avatar with heels becomes a t-rex. But with the previous arm-span scale, they have only slightly shorter arms. But it was still able to get very close to the ground

[lean badger]

i wonder if this avatar has some odd rotation in the rig or so? don't think so though.

identified another avatar with issues

[final raven]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-elbow-twists-at-some-angles

[lean badger]

this one i know might have some rig issues though(it loosk funky as hell in blender

trying to post a picture of blender but discord thinks its lewd...

there we go... despite this, it has tended to work well in most applications I've thrown it in

one thing these avatars have in common: A pose

[final raven]

- Further improvements and tuning to elbow clip avoidance
After a bit of time tonight, I feel like the tuning here feels a bit too aggressive in some cases~

might just be me tho

[harsh lagoon]

yeah i was on for like 5 hours and overall i much better liked how it was yesterday, the only thing i consistently noticed was how nice the shoulders stretching upwards felt, they were good before but even better now for certain

it felt like my elbows and the torso collider were slightly less smooth than before? i'm not sure how to explain it but it felt like a smooth rotation before and i feel like now its smooth but has steps in the rotation or something

on top of tons of other weird little things, like when i stand straight up and walk left and right my elbows might fly out and jitter around, or when i look to my side and hold my palm out my elbow flips out. Like, i was talking to someone who was a bit below me and i was just moving my hands to express and my elbow was not having it

felt really weird

AV3 Tracking Control for head should no longer be limited when hip is set to animated - those who had issues with this, please test it again and let us know how it goes!
I didnt even think about this part fully, but does this mean it should fix that thing where if i crouch or i'm laying down i'm not able to look up fully even though i should be able to?

i'll definitely take a look at that tomorrow

[lean badger]

how the rig of the first avatar looks, for reference

arm detail

[grand lynx]

The arm scaling that has been in the beta for the past few weeks allowed avatars to feel larger around my body. It felt perfect in 10 point tracking. The height scaling makes avatars and the world so small that it feels like im overlayed over the avatar puppeteering. I hope there is at least an advanced option(even if its a bit hidden in the ui) to use the arm scaling as it was before this update.

Also, I like that the shoulders/body didnt movement when arms extended out.

[strong sundial]

I've already made a canny specifically requesting a toggle for the scale https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/11711-add-an-option-to-revert-scale-factor-to-previous-non-legacy-value

[grand lynx]

Thank you fizzy, will go updoot it

[strong sundial]

Ty!

[grand lynx]

As a dancer, tracking has never felt so good as the arm scale we've had the past two weeks. I'd be pretty devastated to lose it.

Avatars have never felt so good to use.

[strong sundial]

Yeah, I really don't want to lose it either.
It was useful to have. And honestly, with how well it worked for some avatars it doesn't even really have to be an "advanced" toggle. It could just be a 3rd measuring mode.

[grand lynx]

I get that Kung doesn't want there to be an overwhelming amount of options for the user. But yeah

[strong sundial]

Yeah, it's why I made a seperate post. A full big page of IK options would be really nice to have but it's probably destined for a different update if it ever happens.
But this alt scale factor is something a lot of people got used to over the beta and is something we need rn

[final raven]

In general, it kinda felt like my arms were too bent in some situations like if my hands were too close to the front of my body, (palm down > fist > index finger extended & pointing straight forward) and it felt like my wrists were bent to the side at what looked like an extreme angle to me. I'll have to grab a photo of it later when I can~

[harsh lagoon]

it felt like it was overcompensating if thats what you mean yeah

i for one noticed that when just sitting in casual pose with my arms to my side but kinda in a bicycle pose, if i wiggled my wrists there, my arms were doing a ton of movement when really i was just doing a tiny wiggle

[final raven]

Basically overcompensation yeah. I'm kind of starting to see the appeal of this canny (https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/provide-in-depth-ik-configuration-options-for-enthusiasts)

Kung can only do so much when it comes to fine-tuning the IK to suit as much as possible but obviously can't account for everyone. Maybe having a seperate tab or options window for "IK Enthusiasts" to configure different aspects of the IK would be great~

Although I guess that depends, I dunno how many different variables the IK uses for adjustments, but I'm assuming there are many.

[harsh lagoon]

yeah i know lol

i definitely felt like we were at a really good spot for both fbt and 3pt users before todays update though

its probably just one thing wrong that'll fix 95% of the issues we had today, since nearly all of them seemed to be related to the arms in one way or another

i absolutely prefered the way the arm measurement was working before though, my one avatar with long arms felt god awful to use today, it was like having really long but skinny arms and my hands were like half the size they shoulda been lol

[lean badger]

I feel the new old scaling might be working slightly better for avatars with shorter arms for me, but I still have to increase the value over what it ought to be to make sure that I do not become unable to reach things/my real hands going further than my avatars' most of the time. It is almost inevitable to happen at least some of the time... (lock hands feature/torso leaning toggle option when?)

As for which one to make default, I definitely prefer measure by arms. I can deal with slight stilts, but my hands not going all the way is outright uncomfortable to me.

[flint bison]

old IK beta was better imo, the arm rotations mitigating the clipping is way too harsh.
tested on multiple out of the box booths.

video of laying down being bleh

[oak pendant]

There are various constants defined that could be plugged in to slider style adjustments, but the majority of the difference between IK2.0 and legacy as well as many differences between modes of operation like the "lock" modes, is a difference in code itself. It involves writing IK solver code to get the desired behavior so there's no combination of sliders or variables that could be made available to users to produce IK2.0 from for example a stock FinalIK setup. If any options are implemented they need to be specifically coded for and blending between whatever configurable states the user might have (if not just exposing some constant in use) must be implemented (and also execute simultaneously if blending, which would have a minor / theoretical performance difference). Toggles are more practical than sliders because it doesn't require simultaneously running different ik solving functions to blend between. But still, I agree having a ton of user configurability would be cool, it just touches on my wall of text above on the topic of options.

[oak pendant]

thanks, yeah very next thing I'll work on is a different way to get the hand-on-hips pose while mostly having the previous elbow direction behavior from the last update.

[flint bison]

Danks :D

[oak pendant]

This update attempted to use the same algorithm from legacy FBT to determine the arm bend direction, but legacy has a few issues with gimbal lock that IK2.0 (last update) didn't have. So I made an effort to solve gimbal lock by containing it to hard to reach poses. But the legacy algorithm is more prone to gimbal lock in general, so there was a lot to solve. Trying to contain to specific poses made it rely more heavily on bone orientations and so some avatars work and some break. I got it to the point that all the ones I tested on worked... but turns out still there are many that break, so I'll rethink the arm bend direction solving again.

[real bane]

@oak pendant thank for all the hard work! I did some testing with my avatars and with the newer IK with legacy FBT and had similar issues like other that have mentioned since the release. Keep it up!

[final raven]

Yeah, seeing from how much tuning and tweaking the IK is gonna need to get as many things as possible just right, definitely was the right call in the end on making this a long-term beta.

[final raven]

Another thing I guess I could probably note down is it feels like there’s a bit too much movement in the elbows when bending your wrists up and down~

[robust tangle]

Elbow chest avoidance seems perfect for me in this latest update

[final raven]

It's been pretty good in most cases, but I have noticed some instances where it felt like it's been too good if that makes any sense.