ik-2

[strange idol]

Some other headsets aren't bad, but the Index visuals and audio are something I can't give up personally.

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I'm that way for wireless

[strange idol]

It feels like right now your choice is:

• Wireless, but poorer visuals and audio.
• Wired, but greatly improved visuals and audio.

Kind of a dumb trade-off. 🙂

Don't understand why no one made an Index wireless adapter.

It's no more bandwidth than a Vive Pro, just a different connector. (At 90hz)

[prisma meadow]

the wigig module is pretty scuffed. so i guess valve wanted to wait for the tech to mature

it also compresses a bit when you use the vp

[strange idol]

It truly is scuffed. 😄

I have a Vive Wireless module still.

Overheating, drop outs, and compression as you said.

But hey, wireless is wireless.

[prisma meadow]

I had one for my og vive when it first came out. i spent 3 weeks troubleshooting it and actually had to look into my pcie lanes like it was the 90s

[oak pendant]

That's what I'm using, it's... yeah, it's wireless! that's what it is

[strange idol]

Oh yeah, I had to do the same.

[prisma meadow]

i dont really want to carry around a 30k mah battery for 6 hours of playtime either

i just setup a good pulley systen

[strange idol]

Truthhhh.

PiMax's new headset looks interesting with the rear-mounted battery for good balance.

I'm really intrigued to see how that is once it releases in I believe Q4 this year. It sounds like they've learnt a lot over the years, just hope their execution is good. 🙂

Eye, face, mouth, and lower-body tracking all from the HMD too.

IK 2 + OSC eye/face/mouth parameters = WOKE

[prisma meadow]

im a bit eh about the fbt on the pimax. you pretty much need to be a skinny dude to even attempt to get any sort of usable data

[strange idol]

Yeah, for sure. 😄

Can you imagine? You put on some weight and it breaks your lower-body tracking. 😭

[prisma meadow]

lmao\

but ya. i dont see it working really well

and if you turn your head like at all it just gets out of frame

[strange idol]

Oh @oak pendant, real quick as I haven't done enough testing for a bug report yet... It seems like the head lock setting has some strange effects. It feels very... Rigid? I guess? Someone mentioned in here before about very little neck movement, I think that's what I'd say as well.

It's like your upper chest moves to match the head and the neck doesn't do much. :o

As I said, I'd need to dig into it further though and grab some videos! Could be rig-specific.

[empty solar]

i think the crunch of locking both might be because most models use old methods for ideal tracking. if a model has a small neck bone when doing lock all it will cause "the hunch". locking hip may work better if you're standing up and locking to the head is more ideal for sitting/laying down so your model isn't looking into the "chest" area

[oak pendant]

Yeah, head lock mode will likely see a lot of changes probably even in the first update

I'm least happy with that mode

[strange idol]

Oh for sure.

Was getting real tired of my head being out of place when sat down. 😄

It's a much welcomed addition.

VRC team has been on fire lately with IK 2, OSC, and upcoming avatar physics. 🔥

[oak pendant]

This is just the first beta release of IK2.0 also, already getting lots of great feedback from everyone.

[empty solar]

in the future the models I make may use a more ideal approach to armature rigging, especially since I used to just shrink the neck and shoulder bones. Are there any plans on providing some model/sample rigs for avatar makers?

[oak pendant]

Not concrete plans, but it's been brought up a few times. It runs the risk of adding a lot of same-ness to VRC

[strange idol]

I was in love the moment I could do the wave with elbow trackers. 🤣

[strange idol]

Realistically, human 'rigs' IRL are pretty similar though!

A sample 'ideal' rig would be good to cross reference. 🙂

[devout current]

Yeah true, the best thing to do would make sure that the new IK works with most IK configurations.

[tame pewter]

id like something to compare to when working on my models skeleton

[strange idol]

Yeah, right now it's a lot of guesswork and looking at tutorials with jank information and hacky workarounds. 😄

[tame pewter]

i love how unity handles the players skeleton compared to source engine

source scares me

[strange idol]

"Neck bones are for chumps", "Ensure your knees look like this!", "Move the spine like this!", etc. etc.

Looks of wacky stuff people tell you to do.

I think a sample could avoid those issues.

[strange idol]

TRUE.

[tame pewter]

proportion trick too hard

[oak pendant]

Who would tell someone to use a rig hack? How could someone do such a thing?

[empty solar]

I'd figured I'd ask because it used to be that the hip bone needed to be a bit high, but whenever I calibrate now it looks like that high hip bones should phase out since calibration spot for the hips is much lower in IK 2.0. Again I'm repeating myself when I say that the fixes to neck and shoulder bones are really good, especially since the new shoulder bone deforms how they are supposed to irl.

[tame pewter]

people who don’t bother figuring out how to properly set up their skeleton

[oak pendant]

(sorry context, I've made tutorials telling people to use rig hacks in the past 😅 )

[devout current]

I think a lot of old tutorials told people to do an inverted hip as an "IK Hack"

which is really bad

[empty solar]

try higher hip bones

which may be bad for the new system because again the tracking spot is in the "correct" position for the hip bone

[oak pendant]

The IK2.0 system should be much less picky about the hip compared to legacy, although an upside down hip won't work with lock head mode at the moment

[empty solar]

I'm just trying to figure out how to fix my model so that when I do lock all the hunch won't happen

[oak pendant]

To fix that you'll likely just want to angle your head down IRL while calibrating

Like look down by about 30 degrees

That will tighten the spine

[empty solar]

I've always looked up so that my feet wouldn't be in the floor

[wet gorge]

Still wondering if your head locking when setting your hip to animation is an intended behavior or not.

[oak pendant]

That's due to the default locomotion layer activating the crouch animation under the IK, we should probably fix this

[empty solar]

would this also fix the problem where if you do an animation on the action layer and jump it breaks the animation?

[oak pendant]

Not intended, animated head and animate hip should operate separately. I haven't had a chance to respond to that canny yet though and was looking out for other people to confirm. I'll test it myself on Monday

[wet gorge]

🙏

[oak pendant]

I wasn't aware of that issue, is there a canny for it? I can say though that IK2.0 will only slightly touch the general AV3 animations systems where necessary. If there's an AV3 issue that isn't directly related to IK2.0 it will probably be solved separately

[empty solar]

it's kinda been a thing since 3.0 came out. something to do with the landing animation that breaks an action layer animation with the default locomotion layers. I'll put it in the canny so that it could possibly be bookmarked. I do apologize for not making it related to the IK system

[oak pendant]

Ah, that's alright we were on the topic of the toe thing that's AV3 related. But yeah, the canny for that probably wouldn't go in the IK2.0 category

[final sphinx]

#rules 9

[zenith glacier]

hey kung, if you want feedback about possible locomotion layer changes, i bet franada (gogolocomotion) and I (locomotionfix) can give feedback what worked out for our controllers

also, quickfix would be to remove the toes from the rigging, that should instantly help if i remember correctly.

[oak pendant]

A revamp of locomotion is a bit out of scope for IK2.0 but if I end up involved in one I'll keep you two in mind. (Though I know you're not suggesting a full revamp) if the issue with the toe in crouch ends up lumped in with IK2.0 I think adjusting some transitions to also depend on tracking type might be enough, but if that's not the case then I might be interested in opening up that topic. In general think locomotion is a pretty cool thing (have you seen my scooting mocap?), but only tangentially related to IK and my main focus is on that at the moment.

I don't really know if it's posted someplace easy to look up, I shared with a few people on discord a few times, but I have a webm here

[zenith glacier]

sadly didnt see the scooting mocap. The issue the current locomotion controller you guys provide is basically, that Desktop, Half Body and Full body are using the exact same logic, though dividing them and look at each specific needs leads to an better experience overall

[oak pendant]

It has a blend tree of mocap animations synced for different locomotion angles, I use it for my crouch anim

[zenith glacier]

and now i have seen it, amazing 😄

[final sphinx]

was this recorded with a mocap suit or sth? This is so smooth and realistic

[oak pendant]

Yeah, a separate animation set for FBT would help. Naively preventing the crouch state by using tracking type in the transition could maybe cause issues with the blend-out of FBT to the crouch locomotion. The main issue is there's a lot for me to work on for IK2.0 and this is right on the edge of being in or out of scope. In general though, the toe thing is a known issue. I think it's tracked on canny probably, I know I've heard of it before

[final sphinx]

gogoloco currently has working setups for that / you can create your own logic with av3 like i did. But yeah a global solution would be better

[oak pendant]

It's actually using Lox9973's shadermotion

[final sphinx]

ok

[oak pendant]

Unity's loop animation tools allow seamless looping of mocap without too much pain, it's kinda magic (though the rhythm of the loop must be at least somewhat in sync to start with)

Here's an old webm with my old avatar showing the blendtree (though I'm kind of going off topic)

[zenith glacier]

we basically handle that as well. The controller I work at allows standing & crouch locomotion animations and as soon as you go too low, it cancels out and returns the avatar into how your controllers are tracking you. Also we included an a lot asked feature of actively being able to turn on/off FBT locomotion animations ingame without having to upload an avatar twice

[oak pendant]

I think part of the cool thing about AV3 is that community projects like yours can customize stuff to that extent too. I think discussion of if all that cool stuff should be default or not though is kind of a separate zone from the IK2.0 update. I mean, I can see how it's related, but there's a need to keep IK2.0 compartmentalized enough to work through and release. Not saying I disagree about it being relevant to bring up, just saying a deeper dive into locomotion is on the outer edge of what this update encompasses and there are more central things that need to be worked through first.

Thanks for your offer to give ideas and feedback though, if I end up in* the area of working on locomotion I'll keep that in mind

[timber grove]

:kungscoot:

[oak pendant]

🤔 scooting as the new default crouch animation would fix the toe issue.... (j/k)

[timber grove]

Honestly that sounds like a good idea.

scooting vs crawling like ur in the army

[oak pendant]

I would kinda want to see a whole room full of people using that animation... but I'm pretty sure the overall community would hate it after the joke wore off

[timber grove]

I'm imagining people in dog avatars doing the scoot

Ok, maybe it's not for everyone.

[zenith glacier]

your welcome, my main intention to work on the "locomotionfix" (i didnt chose the name btw, i just took its developement over) is to provide people a better experience overall.

Anyway, i am testing the new ik out a lot currently and like the changes so far. Did not find any real gamebraking for me personally. A thing i noticed though, is that if you go on the knees, that the new IK tends to turn the legs inwards

legacy ik

hip 2.0 ik

[oak pendant]

Interesting, I hadn't tested that pose yet. It would depend on the foot angle. I'll have to do some comparisons later

[devout current]

You do way more then you probably should do while not actually working xD

[oak pendant]

If it's a consistent and negative issue, then a canny post is needed though. Basically anything that gets into an update is gonna go through the process of "Alright time to get to work, let's pull up the canny and our internally tracked stuff" discord channel stuff would be out of sight and mind at that point

[oak pendant]

Yeah, it's the weekend after a thing I've been working on for awhile went public so I'm probably online right now more than I usually will be. Don't get too used to it I suppose

[zenith glacier]

i am coming from the dancing area of vrchat and others mentioned that already as well. Its basically this

https://www.workoutsprograms.com/media/cache/exercise_375/uploads/exercise/20328485.jpg

some of us go that far that the shoulders reach the ground

so you can test it out properly :3

[oak pendant]

(still want to do my best with getting involved and getting feedback from community though)

[timber grove]

Kung, take a break. You deserve it thanks for all the incredible testing and features you have been working on

[oak pendant]

I'm pretty sure I can do that pose. If I break my legs though them I'm cancelling leg tracking /s

[timber grove]

I would rather your legs not get broken

[zenith glacier]

dont break your legs xD if you have issues with the pose, feel free to shout out basically any dancer in vrchat 😄 most should be able to do that

[devout current]

I really appreciate that you are taking feedback closely and are doing so much to give us an overall great new IK. ^^

[timber grove]

kung deserves not to put his life at risk to do a bendy test

[oak pendant]

(edited that because maybe too much joking) anyway, yeah I should probably get to sleep

[devout current]

maybe he should get something like a testing robot that can do all of those bends for him xD

[devout current]

What time is it for you?

[oak pendant]

I've got a ton of good feedback and I'm pretty sure the first update to this beta can have a decent improvement on top of what we've got so I've got lots of work to do

oh hehe, if I say you'll get worried... oops.. 6:20am

[timber grove]

[devout current]

ooof go to bed then xD

[oak pendant]

I work mostly on US-west time though to sync up with VRC team so this isn't so strange for my sleep schedule. I live in Japan

[devout current]

yeah working remote can have it's up and down sides

[timber grove]

I was gonna say. What you doing up at 6 am

[zenith glacier]

yeah, go to bed already xD.

[oak pendant]

Gotta say, working for VRChat is pretty great though. Definitely send in a job app if you've got some skills for us and are on the fence about applying.

[robust magnet]

already did >:(

[devout current]

Yeah, I actually was thinking of applying in QA, don't have that much experience for it, but had a lot of fun doing it for the betas etc. ^^

[tight aurora]

Would implementing 5 point tracking be a good idea?
An IK based hip could enable more people to get a taste of fullbody.

[devout current]

5 point? so only the feet and not the hip?

[tight aurora]

yeah

[oak pendant]

Awesome, and yeah I'm not in charge of who gets hired so I can only say "good luck" but what I mostly meant is if you wondered if VRC is nice to work for, I can vouch and say, it's great

[timber grove]

Vote if Kung should get tf to sleep

[devout current]

I fell like if you can get 2 Tundra / Vive Trackers one more isn't that big of a deal tbh

[tight aurora]

youd have your hmd hands and feet being tracked, as those are end effectors

[oak pendant]

Doesn't count if it's not in canny! /jk

Yeah... I should sleep

[timber grove]

that's it i'm making a canny post

[robust magnet]

yeah it'd be cool if I did get it since today is my last day with my current place, but unfortunately experience aint up to scratch for what I applied

[timber grove]

:)

[devout current]

do you really want me to make a canny for yoke? xD

[timber grove]

"Mandatory sleep times for employees"

[robust magnet]

unless you count IRC moderation as moderating an online community lul

[timber grove]

But...

[devout current]

cause I will do that xD

[timber grove]

I did want to say Kung, I'm really happy you enjoy working for VRChat and I appreciate how far you come. And you have helped thousands of us with our own avatars and fix issues. Sends virtual fist pump

[oak pendant]

one last thing because Hekky would feel missed, yeah other combinations of trackers are possible, but not all would be implemented because each mode needs special handling. If there's a mode you'd like to see then make a canny post or upvote if it exists

[devout current]

btw is the VRChat tutorial channel getting more videos at a later point? :o

[robust magnet]

I just want hip locomotion :l

the current way to get that sorta works with ovr plugin but eh

it just /feels/ dodgy

[oak pendant]

I definitely want to make more, currently IK2.0 is the main thing on my plate though

[devout current]

makes sense ^^

[loud patio]

I'm not sure if this specific issue has been brought up before or anything but I do have some feedback/issues regarding the new IK now that I have had a chance to use it.

My avatar is currently scaled to my real life height in Unity as well as limbs scaled using the Immersive Scaler tool available. With Legacy IK and previously, everything worked no problem. I can use my real life height in VRC and everything scaled very well to my limbs.
However when I switch to the new IK, my foot trackers end up in the ground while calibrating resulting in some wonky foot tracking results. My arms also end up too short on the avatar. The way I've gotten around this is to set my in-game height 6 inches higher and playspacing up .15 units. Of course this isn't ideal so hopefully there's a way I can get the scales to line up again. All three locking types cause this issue as well (however locking head results in me floating off the ground a bit as well which is an issue in itself)

[timber grove]

I'm sorry I can't help your issue, but...

Locking types?

Is this a new feature?

[loud patio]

Locking Head, Hip, or Both

It's in the new IK settings

[timber grove]

What essentially does it do?

[devout current]

atm the only one I can really use is locking to hip, head is just broken (because of the flipped hip of the Rexouium Avatar) and locked both does some weird looking stuff with my neck

even though I still have the problem with all modes that my chest is moved back a bit compared to live

[final sphinx]

Kung is there a reason there wont be a support for an 8th tracker at the chest?

About to try the new ik with 10pt in a few seconds so idk if its accurate enough yet

[devout current]

I sadly only have 3 Vive 2.0s

[ionic heron]

flipped hips still goin' brr in 2022

[loud patio]

Fix the flipped hip

[devout current]

but thanks to Kung I can now spent money on the 7 tracker dongle from tundra xD

and also get more trackers

[ionic heron]

ye, the issue they ""solved"' was fixed l o n g ago

[oak pendant]

People who previously did iterative scaling against the old ratios will find it doesn't fit with the new ratios. The community built tools around the old ratios as a deep truth to VRC but now that I'm working on an IK overhaul there are more consistent ways to do the measuring. The current scaling factor though is a work in progress so I wouldn't go so far as to edit an avatar at this point. For now keep using your workarounds. Also there appears to be a bug introduced related to floor height when I made the scale measurement method change. So I'll be working on that pretty soon. It'll be one of the first things because it's causing a lot of confusion at the moment. Canny for this is here btw: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feet-under-the-floor

[timber grove]

I finally got 3 vive 2.0's. Mainly to save money at the time.

[ionic heron]

iirc the option to flip the hip bone is still there in CATS, for whatever reason

[loud patio]

I mean, the actual issue is that your hip is flipped. You're not really supposed to do that

[ionic heron]

you might be misreading my messages lol

[zenith glacier]

probably for the unflip button to work

[rustic zodiac]

Is it a bug if the shoulders do not move when your elbows move, but the controllers do?

[ionic heron]

I don't have an avatar with a flipped hip bone, what I mean is that there's still new avatars being uploaded with flipped hip bones despite the issue they jankily worked around being fixed long ago

[devout current]

Yeah we your not, problem is that a tone of Avatars have a flipped hip, so supporting it should sill be considered

[rustic zodiac]

Using 10 point btw

[devout current]

Yeah all of Rezillos Avatars (Rexouium, Canis, etc) have a flipped hip

[loud patio]

Ah okay I figured since it's a beta I should wait a bit to see if it improves on its own, so I'll continue to do that. Thank you!

[final sphinx]

The upper body is calculated real gud but it doesnt feel like moving the actual chest has any affect on the ingame one

Feels like Hekkys aughip kinda

[ionic heron]

I don't strictly see why it'd need to be supported? It was an ancient rig hack that depended on a broken feature. Said broken feature was fixed, so that workaround isn't needed anymore

[loud patio]

I feel like the avatar creators should fix that

[ionic heron]

flipped hip bones have been causing issues for a long time now

[devout current]

for what ever reason he said on his discord that it's the only way he ever got FBT to work.

[devout current]

Problem is that not everyone know how to do, has acces to the Avatar they are using etc

[ionic heron]

unflipping the hip bone is vv easy, at least

[loud patio]

Then he's doing something wrong. With a standard rig there is no reason to flip the hips

[devout current]

idk tell him that not me xD

[ionic heron]

wonder if the distance between the tops of the thigh bones and the hip bone is too small on the rex base

haven't looked at it's armature, so 🤷

[rustic zodiac]

@oak pendant Can I just say, excellent job to the team with the new IK it is generally amazing, a few little gripes and issues I have personally but an excellent starting point.
6 point works far better than 10 point

[loud patio]

The hip and spine are in the same position

Not good

(Of course that's what flipped hips tend to do)

[devout current]

the hip is flipped, that's why it looks like that

[oak pendant]

Thanks! I'm interested to know this issues with 10pt, so make sure to document those in the canny. I think the testing community for that is limited

[ionic heron]

^ https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20

[rustic zodiac]

I have 15 trackers, so I'm more than happy to be a test mule for any other crazy things you can think of 😉

[loud patio]

It looks like if the non-flipped hip is causing issues it may be due to how high the leg bones are.

[ionic heron]

I can't really see the length of the bones there, so still couldn't say - the hip bone is def an issue though

[devout current]

yeah sadly it is

[oak pendant]

In general I would expect 10pt to work better than 6pt unless you're having RF interference issues, so if you feel 6pt is working better, let us know what's causing drawbacks for 10pt

[rustic zodiac]

My main issue is the implementation of the new shoulders mechanic being a bit unpredictable

[devout current]

the Rexouium is also a really popular Avatar, so I just hope this can be sorted out without needing to reupload / fix every Rexouium Avatar

[ionic heron]

to be fair though, that's an issue with the avatar itself having bad rigging practice

[devout current]

yeah ik, but it worked fine with the old IK and a tone of Avatars have that bad rigging, the creator of it isn't even considering to change it atm

[oak pendant]

You can fix this by moving the chest bone's pivot in line with the rest of the spine chain in blender. Trying to support rest pose bent spine's bend is something that may or may not make it in to this update. (I'd like to, but it's complicated because IK2.0 allows much more bending in the spine than legacy. It worked in legacy because above the hip-spine joint the rest of the chain was pretty stiff so it held that pose

[loud patio]

Maybe the creator should consider losing his avatars then (jk)

[robust magnet]

how is the comfort with all those trackers hooked up? - the current 2 on feet and 1 hip is annoying at times so I imagine even more can be worse

[rustic zodiac]

It doesn't bother me

[robust magnet]

currently internally debating if I go for 7 tundra's and sell my old vive pucks

[devout current]

hm okay, interesting have to look in to that. I haven't done any rigging in Blender yet so yeah, I'll at least give it a try ^^

[final sphinx]

10pt is fine

[robust magnet]

I can imagine elbow straps would be annoying

[final sphinx]

I wouldnt mind an 8th one on my chest tbh, this isnt too annoying either

[loud patio]

I kept my vives and got 4 tundras during the kickstart. I use the vives for feet and hip and the tundras for knees and elbos

[final sphinx]

Theyre fine with armwarmers

You dont feel them that way

[robust magnet]

armwarmers?

[ionic heron]

straps too irritating? glue the trackers to yourself
legal note: don't

[robust magnet]

good lord

trying to give me heatstroke

[final sphinx]

Yeah this works

[robust magnet]

9am and it's 26c in here

[harsh lagoon]

could probably modify a pair of elbow pads they do sell those

[oak pendant]

basically if it looks like this, it'll end up using that sharp corner in the spine as slack and it will tend to straighten, caving in that zone.

[rustic zodiac]

I'm made of rubber and bounce around like a maniac with 8, I'm hoping to find a way to custom IK for some programs true shoulder tracking and other misc bones. Also means I can strap one to my drink or other objects etc for some crazy shinanigans

[oak pendant]

currently you could fix it by doing this: (line it up more)

[robust magnet]

I also want to be able to arbitrarily use trackers - I have an idea for my dog that seems fun

[oak pendant]

but I know it'll be a popular request to support more zigzaggy spines, just not sure if it'll make it into release

[rustic zodiac]

@oak pendant What is your shoulder layout like?

[oak pendant]

I actually just responded to someone asking on twitter about that

Let me find that link (then I'm actually going to sleep)

[rustic zodiac]

I want to copy it with my test avatar and new Base 😉

Means you can re-create my issues easily 😄

[oak pendant]

https://twitter.com/Kung_VR/status/1497970263635357699

Kung (@Kung_VR)

@THE_RINDARINDA (1/2) Thanks! I'm glad you liked my avatar! Yeah the shoulder area can be hard. I spent awhile working on mine. Here's my weight distribution. https://t.co/WpMHxUP10G

Twitter · Feb 27, 2022, 4:21 PM

[ionic heron]

kung go sleeMP

[rustic zodiac]

NICE, basically the same as I have it

Except I'm far lower poly 😓

[royal leaf]

that's very good weight painting how many tears did you shed doing that

[devout current]

Thanks Kung, I'll give it a shot, eventhough I still hope for support being implemented at some point ^^

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I'm about 50k

[rustic zodiac]

My new base is 7.8k xDDDD

[devout current]

And Kung.... please go to bed :)

[rustic zodiac]

With clothing, toggles etc

[oak pendant]

nice!

Ok sleep time, in the meantime post stuff on canny or it doesn't exist!

[ionic heron]

good optim :headpat:

[rustic zodiac]

Done 😉

"elbows-not-enforcing-shoulder-movement"

[devout current]

Kung, sleep!

No more typing!

[timber grove]

testing new ik. trackers below avatar feet

sad

i changed my height and its scaled better

[final sphinx]

yea testing 10pt rn, works real gud

[timber grove]

but i need a offset height in ovras

[ionic heron]

make sure your ingame height is set to your real height, the scaling method changed

[timber grove]

i am at a higher irl height and an ovras offset

on new ik

[timber grove]

So I spent about a half hour testing out the brand new IK on 6pt tracking. Here is what I have come to:
Pros

• much improved knee tracking (in 6 point) when laying down on back and moving knee side to side.
• Improved knee position standing up.
• I like the elbow location assumptions when crossing your arms in a thinking pose
• In extremely funky positions I saw no chest flipping
  Cons
• I don't like the more "stiff" feel of the elbow bones in certain scenarios
• Scaling system is different. Feet were above tracker position. I just put my height higher than irl, and set a height offset in OVRAS.
• Crossed leg sitting is less acurate. Making a canny post atm

[strong nova]

Problem that I had regarding FBT a while ago. I just attempted repro, but I don't seem to be having any issues with it now. Let me know if anyone else if having this problem, but here's the thread. https://feedback.vrchat.com/bug-reports/p/fbt-stops-when-steamvr-menu-is-open-upon-world-load

[robust tangle]

This also happens if it is open while the avatar is loading

When changing avatars, etc. It was known but a "useful" bug until we got the ability to disable FBT manually, now it has no use.

[brazen condor]

The sinking into the ground thing is known

I assume thats what you mean by the tracker feet position mismatch

It usually is negative Feet below the floor but sometimes its positive like what you had

[timber grove]

I made a mistake when I typed that out. At 0,0,0 the avatar’s feet are below the ground. I managed to tweak the height setting and set an offset to make it work well.

[tulip dragon]

how do we use this?

[digital grove]

check #open-beta-info

and #open-beta-announcements

[harsh lagoon]

Yeah day 2 and I've noticed that the prone animations I have for my avatar with 3 point tracking are acting a bit different

Specifically, the activation height they activate at is a bit lower than it should be, making my prone (sitting on butt with my legs out) makes my butt go through the floor

I'd guess that has something to do with other people reporting the feet orbs for full body were in the floor cus it seems about that same distance for me is what's going wrong

[final sphinx]

the head locks way too low + stiff on some smaller avatars when laying down , anyone else notice that?

(with head lock enabled)

[subtle spoke]

I noticed people using head lock vs hip lock. Very interesting - i wondered if feet lock would work in future.

I think today hip lock is most expressive.

Though maybe head lock is better for dancing…

[oak pendant]

Lock Head currently has the most issues, and will be changing soon. It's definitely not the best for dancing. I'd recommend Lock Hip for pretty much everyone, but if you care about view drift then wait for updates to Lock Head (or use it, but it's pretty janky when looking up and down now)

[subtle spoke]

Well, when i say “most expressive”, i am mostly in the context of sign language.

So i think people look better with hip lock

[oak pendant]

Oh, interesting. Yeah in general Lock Hip behaves in the most predictable way. (And will likely have little change in at least the first update to the ik2.0 beta) But Lock Head is going to change a lot, and Lock All will be getting some changes too (community feedback has been a big help on this btw)

[final sphinx]

nice

[subtle spoke]

Head just looks stiff with sign in my opinion, and lock all seems extremely stiff.

[raw wadi]

Didn't seen that weird when I test it.

[unborn whale]

Im glad to read its not just me having issues with the head-locking. On basically every avatar i try while using head-only lock it works great... except when i look down - then my hips (and knees/upper legs) thrust away behind me.
With Head+hips the chest often gets pulled back, leaving the avatar with an S-shaped torso, belly sticking out and head looking like its craning over the front like a hunchback

Some avatars dont have the backwards-hip-thrust thing, their knees just bend a bit (which is much better) - so there must be some armature setups that work a little better with the current implementation, i guess

[raw wadi]

For the both lock is fine overal but the chest and neck rotate foward/backward a lot when doing small movement.

[unborn whale]

A working head-locking solution will be best for sign - because currently trying to point to a specific part of your face, like your mouth) is hit-and-miss as your actual head location can drift all over the place depending on how you are standing/sitting/lying

[subtle spoke]

Oh yeah, especially for asl

[vale nimbus]

Does this beta fix the "nut-twister" bug?

[final sphinx]

[solar cloud]

sus

[final raven]

Funny enough, I've actually been preferring to use 'Lock All' as that's been real nice to cancel out all drift even though a few of my avatars are super hunched forward when using it. Lock Head indeed is still pretty jank yeah. Not a fan at all of the hip drifting.

[solar cloud]

Does lock hip also prevent some view point drift?

Or is that exclusive to the other modes

[final raven]

View drift is still apparent in lock hip, but I noticed now in the beta IK that view drift is significantly reduced overall thanks to the fix to torso pulling especially when bending down forwards with certain avatars.

[minor rampart]

it HEAVILY reduces it.

when I lie down with legacy, my viewport is clearly wrong---and if I lift my head, my chest blocks a sizeable portion of my view.

with locked hip, I have a very clear view to my feet and I'm not clipping into my chest.

This is going to vary from avatar to avatar---I have an avatar with really janky proportions where the new IK has made things worse

but I get the idea most of the humanoid avatars with fairly realistic proportions got a massive improvements

[zenith glacier]

@oak pendant can you tell how much the pose animations are playing into the IK's behaviour in FBT? (I mean primarily the standing pose of course), since the standard proxy_stand_still animation has slight spine & chest rotation values in it

[regal oasis]

isn't "lock hip" literally how it worked in the legacy IK? so it's gonna have the same disturbing effects like seeing through your chest (if that's what you mean by "viewpoint drift")

[zenith glacier]

lock hip is legacy behaviour like you said. The drift is less for me compared to legacy though.

[oak pendant]

On the spine in particular the pose animations should have a smaller effect than in legacy, though in theory it should still effect it.

[zenith glacier]

also i threw our custom fbt pose (left) into comparison with the proxy_stand_still (right) - the proxy one has an Y offset, maybe that plays into the "feet in ground" as well

[oak pendant]

Lock Hip is conceptually similar to the legacy behavior, in that it avoids extreme crunch in the spine by not always forcing the head into the tracked position, however the method of calculation for the pose is completely different, so in that sense it's not the same. Hopefully there will be less view drift than legacy, but allowing nicer looking spine at the cost of view drift is the intended function of Lock Hip

[oak pendant]

Interesting, yeah this will require more testing I think. There may be a canny here, but the language is a little vague about if they're altering the base/locomotion layer's standing pose or if they're altering the utility IKpose controller https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/ik-pose-layer-is-not-working

[zenith glacier]

from what i read there they are adjusting the pose in the ikpose controller to lead it into more inwards leg rotation.

never messed around with that one myself, seems like i got something to do this evening

[oak pendant]

That would make sense, as you're seeing an effect from the base pose, but they're not seeing an effect from the ikpose

[pallid stump]

Hello. This is our Canny, and it's about the same issue that occurred in May 2021, where the IK2beta does not allow the Special/IKPose controller to have any effect.

like this canny
https://vrchat.canny.io/bug-reports/p/ik-pose-layer-does-not-seem-to-work-since-202121

[oak pendant]

Ok great, thanks for the clarification. That will help with figuring out the issue.

[pallid stump]

Thank you.

[errant helm]

I'm absolutely scared to test my Quadrupedal locomotion system in the new IK

Time to see how much Ill have to cry :(

[tender fractal]

Does the beta work with current avatars or do I have to change the rig for it to be compatible?

[elfin relic]

Works with current avatars, however if your avatar uses rig hacks then it might look wonky.

[tender fractal]

No rig hacks on my avatars

So they should be fine

[carmine gate]

Yeah, your chances of it working aren't rigged.
But if you got some rig hacks, you'll need some elbow grease to get it going.
But once you do, you'll have a leg up on everyone else.
It really is the bee's knees.

I am so sorry.

[tender fractal]

So if I don’t have rig hacks I’m fine?? Finding your message a bit confusing

[errant helm]

By rig hacks you mean like gimmicks to get it looking a certain way?

My armature is scary enough to look at let alone trying to troubleshoot

[carmine gate]

rigged, elbows, leg, knees, It's a series of awful puns.

[tender fractal]

I must be too smooth brain to understand

[solar cloud]

I only have a upside down hip bone

As long as i didn't push the fix to my Public avatars people just have to use hip locked mode which works fine

[zenith glacier]

you shouldnt have anything to worry about, from what i see locomotion systems simply continue to work

[errant helm]

Its not just a locomotion system its a full FBT rig conversion for Quads :P I'll see how bad it messes up. As my Hip bone is neither Up or down its 90° out

[zenith glacier]

oh, in that case, fingers crossed that it is not that much of a change for you

[errant helm]

How do you enable this overlay?

[zenith glacier]

i had to look up an old project for one with rig hacks, but here you have a small comparison:

Left: "Rig hacked" Hips and Neck, Right: no rig hacks

the hip righack is mostly from the years 2018 - early 2020. The neck one was used a pretty long time as well, till it broke somewhere early 2021 if i remember correctly. Dont be fooled by "your chest bone does not connect all the way up like on the right side", in unity's rigging it does not matter where one bone ends, since in this example "chest" goes from "chest beginning" to "neck beginning".

vrchat devs actually tried to revert it so much, that the neck one does not break, but one can still see a difference between those in game rather easily (unnatural, bending backward when you are crouching in desktop and beginning to move for example)

[rustic berry]

good comparison👍

[zenith glacier]

thanks, just trying my best to be helpful 😄

[rustic berry]

could probably even split that chest bone into chest and upperchest

[zenith glacier]

only issue is, when you do that you will have to reweightpaint a lot, if i am working on a new model and its base has the upper chest sure, but "upgrading" existing models with upper chest...

[rustic berry]

you could probably just right click > Subdivide the bone, duplicate the vertex group, and then use the gradient tool on the chest group with 0 weight and drag from the top down

then Normalize all

so you'd basically be "trimming" the top of chest vertex group, then subtracting the chest groups influence from the upper chest group

makes sense?

[zenith glacier]

i see what you mean, but i guess on female models it aint that easy

this is the chest weightpaint on her, as i hate weightpainting with every fiber of my life, i guess what you wrote would make a solid beginning, but in the end would be a lot of work. I am almost sure i cant use "Normalize all" here as well

[devout current]

that's a cool world which also got mentioned somewhere in #open-beta-announcements ^^

[errant helm]

Nice! thankies my bone is correctly orientated so I'm good!

[rustic berry]

@zenith glacier I mean your weights should all be normalized in the first place

NA just forces all weights to sum up to 1

and by default, prevents the group you have selected from losing any weights

you can also lock groups in the vertex group list

so that they aren't touched

could do that for the breasts

and shoulders

weight painting is hard, but there are many tricks to make it less painful

[zenith glacier]

i just work with the base and the weight it brings, if its not normalized i am not going to force it to tbh, cause the pain may begin then

[rustic berry]

it's automatically all normalized when imported into unity

you can't have un-normalied weights for rigs lol

sometimes though, there may be other vertex groups that are only there as "masks"

those should be ignored

but if not, that's where some issues can come up

I'm not trying to force you to change your rig, totally understandable if you don't feel like it

I'm just trying to lay down some facts to improve your understanding of the process

[zenith glacier]

its fine lol, i am happy to learn more about stuff like this. It's just very bad experiences with auto normalize on during weightpainting on different models, where i am like "i add 0.02" weight to group X and suddenly the vertex shoots all over the place

but enough blender offtopic i guess, this is for IK stuff 😅

[rustic berry]

yea that happens if the weights weren't normalized beforehand

[crisp bronze]

just wondering, do people on stable branch see the same as you see yourself on the IK2 beta

[devout current]

yes

they see you the same way as you do

in terms of IK

[crisp bronze]

thanks, wasn't sure if it was networked

i'm about to test IK2 branch with a friend and wanted to know that before going in (as they're using quest and i'm on pc)

[devout current]

no worries, they see you the same way as you do in the beta ^^

[cloud pilot]

Lock all works soo good with a well rigged armature

[final raven]

Nice to know looking down about 30 degrees while calibrating in 'lock all' mode helps eliminate your neck going into hunched over mode.

[zenith glacier]

@rustic berry u did what you said for the lulz, looks pretty good in the new IK (and at the same time i wanna delete this work, since the breats WP is completely borked now :x )

[final raven]

Not seeing any immediate drawbacks to calibrating while looking down instead of looking straight forward as well so this makes 'lock all' just the definitive mode to use for me now. only thing I'm noticing is doing this will have your avatar pulled up a little bit by like maybe a few centimeters which you'll notice if you squat up and down just a bit.

[rustic berry]

you could bring your old model back into the project, and then use Transfer weights to transfer the weights of the old breasts back

and then Normalize with the breast group selected

[zenith glacier]

i looked into pandas helios base, he included an upper chest there, so i may just opt to test that one out instead and do weight transfers to the clothing and test it there.

[zenith glacier]

maybe i can ask you about that since you seem to know how the rig should look like. Panda did it in his helios base like this:

[rustic berry]

interesting, influence could probably extend a bit lower but looks pretty okay

what about from the back

[zenith glacier]

i am just asking, cause i put mine a lot lower:

[hot fulcrum]

something happening...

[clever thicket]

da hell they doin ova there

[devout valley]

https://tenor.com/view/side-eye-squint-suspicious-hmm-futurama-gif-8526915

[devout current]

I don't think the internal beta is used for the ik stuff though

So either it's a update for live, or anything open beta?

[hot fulcrum]

never knows until happen.
I just post here as no other channel related to beta open now...

[devout current]

Yup

[hot fulcrum]

maybe osc patch, maybe ik, maybe avatar dynamic, can be anything.

[devout current]

I guess it will be a live update to fix a few issues etc

[hot fulcrum]

hope so.

[devout current]

If it would be Avatar Dynamics I think we would have seen other branches also getting updated over the last few days

[hot fulcrum]

like k-xx branch. xD

[devout current]

I think so

k-dev could also stand for "Kung-Dev"

But it could also just be something completely random xD

[hot fulcrum]

xD

IK-dev
Kung-Dev
Kinematic-Dev

can be many idea.

[devout current]

https://tenor.com/view/pure-speculation-guessing-predicting-hunch-assuming-gif-14725690

[frosty loom]

That's not for y'all

https://tenor.com/view/starwars-movealong-stormtrooper-gif-5509326

[hot fulcrum]

[devout current]

😅

[final raven]

Most likely a patch. I know one fix that's suppose to be addressed in it.
#open-beta-discussion message

[robust tangle]

Unless you have index controllers of course. 🎵 https://vrchat.canny.io/avatar-30/p/bugbuild-1004-avatars-30-emotes-on-index-do-not-have-root-transform-applied-prop

[hot fulcrum]

hope so.

[coral cairn]

I don't think they're on the final scaling, but immersive scaler will definitely have a new version once they are. I'll try to keep dev up to date with changes to the beta just so that I myself can give feedback here.

[ripe oriole]

What is everyone using for strapping knee trackers on above the knee? My trackstrap feet straps are too tight for that job

[clever thicket]

I just threw on some velcro straps, does the job

[coral cairn]

ooo that's a good idea

[loud patio]

I use Tundras for my knees and elbows and the straps they came with work perfectly for me. For my knees though I use my old Skywin tracker straps and they fit well enough

[robust tangle]

I assume you were backer? If not how did you get them

[loud patio]

Yeah I was a backer

[robust tangle]

I wish they would have an announcement already. It’s the last day of February and they didn’t announce a delay

That means today or it got delayed without an announcement saying so

[loud patio]

Are you a backer?

[robust tangle]

No.

It’s been dead quiet for the non-backers

[slim temple]

They haven't finished shipping backer units yet

Lots of delays at the moment

[devout valley]

Yes backer phase still ongoing

[robust tangle]

I know, but they publicly said that they would be available this February and didn’t announce a delay to non backers

Bad communication

[devout valley]

They might be soon. All we can do is wait. No use agonizing over it.

[loud patio]

Soon:tm:, but still later this month, we will announce specific communication about Tundra Tracker Public release.

[robust tangle]

I know they’re not going to make it, I know better than to hype myself up. Still, they should have said so heh

[loud patio]

They talked about it to backers in their latest update

[robust tangle]

Yeah but that’s privately to only backers

The only reason I know that is because a friend slides me the details

[loud patio]

Where else could they do it

[robust tangle]

They can make public posts !

[solar cloud]

I hope they fix oculus version not being able to launch in VR

[robust tangle]

Apparently it’s not everyone being hit with a problem because the canny has extremely few votes

[solar cloud]

Output log gives out an invalid path error related to OVR DLL

[robust tangle]

Is everyone is being hit that thing needs way more votes than it currently has because it’s not a priority

[solar cloud]

Wrong slash

[robust tangle]

Yeah I know it looks like one of the backslashes is backwards

[loud patio]

?

[solar cloud]

Currently im locked out of VR completely regarding vrchat

Steamvr i get terrible performance

[robust tangle]

But surely not everyone is being hit with the bug or we would be having raids of angry people

Unless there are really truly that few people logging in with Oculus Home

Even VRChat themselves and said they couldn’t reproduce it

[ripe oriole]

I’ll give this a shot for sure! Good idea

[loud patio]

Oculus is just not a good platform sadly

[ionic heron]

specifying system specs would be vv helpful in that canny post

[robust tangle]

It would be surprising if it were spec related because it’s almost certainly a bad backslash lol. But sure I’ll go poke my friend and tell him to post his specs

[ionic heron]

there might be an issue with vv old CPUs with SteamVR in the current build, which could potentially be related if it's an OVR issue
the slash issue wouldn't be spec-related though, ye

[solar cloud]

Error - Plugins: Failed to load 'D:/OculusApps/Software/vrchat-vrchat/VRChat_Data/Plugins\x86_64/OVRPlugin.dll' with error 'Eine DLL-Initialisierungsroutine ist fehlgeschlagen.
'.

[ionic heron]

\x86_64/

[rustic berry]

how many tundras did you get? if you got 5 or 7, 2 of the straps are longer than the others, those are the knee straps

put the tracker above the knee, do one turn of the strap above the knee,.and then another turn below the knee

[loud patio]

I got 4

[rustic berry]

then stick the end on the upper knee loop

4? so a 3 pack + 1 tracker?

[loud patio]

Yep

So I got two small straps plus one waist one I think

[rustic berry]

I see...

contact tundra labs, they can probably hook you up with knee straps

their queue might be a bit long so it could take a week - 2 weeks max for a response

[loud patio]

Ehh I'm fine. I had an old set of straps before I bought a set of TrackStrap+. The old straps work perfectly for my knees. The tundras work well for my elbows

[ripe oriole]

Looks like the skywin trackers are much longer than the trackstrap ones. Maybe I’ll check these out 👀

[loud patio]

Oh yes they are definitely longer

[carmine gate]

omg, are they not abstracting path combiners???? this is painful

[tawny swan]

Do u guys know how to update ik beta?

[zenith glacier]

#open-beta-info

[tawny swan]

Thanks!

[carmine gate]

Well there's your answer.

[hot fulcrum]

xD

I think this may fix some weird object_sync or sync matter all of sudden not working as expectead got fixed.
and it makes sense to me.

[coral cairn]

ok so I've played around with the new scaling a bit. I'm using my real height and no playspace mover.

• there's definitely a difference in calculation for world scale and floor (viewpoint) height, leading to the viewpoint never being exactly the right height above the floor for a given avatar, and complicating all this. For me, the floor was consistently too low for a given avatar
• Kung's formula at #ik-2 message works pretty well for floor height, I was still about a 5-10 mm off so not perfect, this roughly matches my tool for the old scaling. However, avatars were consistently too small for the given floor height.

it's a lot easier to see if you use --legacy-ftb-calibrate but it happens without

I'll post on canny once I have a better idea on what's going on

[woeful flare]

can you use 9 points?

[clever thicket]

don't use elbow trackers without a long sleeve shirt, worst mistake of my life

[zinc plank]

Yes.

[loud patio]

I always wear short sleeve. I think you need a new strap

[clever thicket]

what straps do you use? im just using old trackstraps

[loud patio]

For elbows I use the default Tundra straps. For knees, I use Skywin straps

[woeful flare]

OwO

[next python]

can you use 206 points?

obv need a tracker for each bone

[coral cairn]

osc and a really complicated animator maybe?

[next python]

plus advance tracking system lol

i ment each bone in a human body

[coral cairn]

use multiple x-ray devices to track your actual bones

[next python]

yes

because xray radiation is fine to have shooting at you for long time

[prisma meadow]

yes

[loud patio]

I mean we get radio signals shot at us 24/7 with wifi and cell networks

[next python]

yes but those dont do anything to us

too little energy

[loud patio]

Well they do, just not enough to do actual harm

[next python]

i did not say they did not have energy lol

[prisma meadow]

if it meant perfect fbt id shoot myself with xrays ngl

[robust tangle]

I’m not sure what’s going on but if you have advanced ovr installed, remove it. I have found that it is extremely inconsistent with reporting its current offset. It will say you are at zero, but it’s actually at whatever you changed it to last time and on your next session at restores that height but it’s the new zero.

[strange idol]

IK or rig issue? With head lock on. :o

[robust tangle]

I think it’s just that IK. That how head lock be. Not sure if it could be better or if there is a reason for it. I don’t like the behavior but I see it a lot with my stuff.

I can’t stand head drift so I must use head lock, so I just cope with the side effects.

[strange idol]

Maybe Kung can provide some insight. 🙂

Seems like it doesn't use the neck bone.

[digital grove]

Osc only allows as many as avatar parameters are available, which are 128 bits in total. For tracking(float), that number would be a lot smaller

I think

[tranquil cipher]

no, it's a bug that will be fixed

[strange idol]

Woo9.

[robust tangle]

Yay!

[digital grove]

Unless you can move bones independently of avatar parameters

[coral cairn]

you don't need to update everything at once, you can have an int parameter set modes, set some bones, and then set save that state until next time they're set, going around very fast.

[coral cairn]

steamvr itself has a 3-6 inch jitter every time you start it so if you aren't resetting it every time with ovr advanced settings, you're going to be off.
I'm using the same setup I've used for years to get accurate scaling and floor height within vrchat to about a cm.

[robust tangle]

Humanoid Bone rotation gets pumped over Network IK so it doesn’t actually need to be syched by parameters, but the current implementation of OSC requires you use up your networked bits anyway.

There is also an odd exception where if you disable someone’s animations via safety, their humanoid animations also play over network IK even though they would normally play locally

[coral cairn]

don't you just send the humanoid animations over net ik anyway, and the animation overrides that?

otherwise you'd know who has your animations shown

[robust tangle]

Not sure actually!

Regardless if you currently want to take a Manual control of Humanoid Bones do you need to use animation tracking control, which orders the other wide to play local animations (unless they have your animations blocked) so trying to pump OSC-powered animations over network IK wouldn’t be possible… yet

[digital grove]

Yes I meant via OSC

[strange idol]

Lock both has some strange side effects too. :o

Kind of leaning the neck forward.

[carmine gate]

I'll have to give IMSCaler-dev a go tomorrow

throw some feedbacks at ya

[robust tangle]

Yes if you look at the tool tips for the three modes they say the other two are to prevent spine issues. Lock both has the spine issues the other two are referring to

[strange idol]

Right. :o

[prisma meadow]

is immersive scaler getting an update to help with proportions?

[coral cairn]

have a dev zip. Proportions subject to change.

[coral cairn]

yep.

[prisma meadow]

oo

[coral cairn]

It'll probably be changed though

only use this to try it out currently, don't overwrite your old avatars, etc

[strange idol]

Oh, @robust tangle, the bug mentioned earlier with lock head, is that on Canny already?

[robust tangle]

I don’t know of one but I haven’t browsed thoroughly.

[prisma meadow]

whats the difference between the dev version and release?

[strange idol]

Maybe I'll give it a post to Canny then if @oak pendant can confirm it's a bug versus a rig problem. 🙂
(Sorry for ping!)

[robust tangle]

Phased here confirmed it’s a bug. #ik-2 message

[coral cairn]

so the important thing is ik 2.0 changes world scaling - immersive scaler basically does vrchat's world scaling formula in reverse to see how much it needs to change. That calculation has changed, so immersive scaler's calculations need to change. There's a button to toggle old vs new calculations under customize.

(also bugfixes and bone name overrides but those are less relevant right now)

[strange idol]

Ohhh sorry, I thought it was you that confirmed it earlier, my bad.

[prisma meadow]

ah ok

[strange idol]

That's why I was asking if it had been reported on canny. :p

[robust tangle]

(Phased is sneaky non-yellow QA)

[strange idol]

Ohhhhhh!

Right, then yep, properly reported. 😄

Good to hear.

[carmine gate]

oh come on, I learned the entire Unity rig naming scheme by heart just because of your tool.... and you go and fix the bug. :(

[coral cairn]

It's still easier to rename a bone than it is to go through the overrides imo. It's mostly for people who don't want to change bone names for whatever reason.

[robust tangle]

Out of curiosity what actually are the scaling rules now?

I feel like the scaling is correct but the end height translation still needs work

[coral cairn]

I think it's the other way around
based on #ik-2 message
the end height translation matches that pretty well, but the scaling doesn't match.

[robust tangle]

🤔

[coral cairn]

also

imscale assumes that distance between the avatar viewpoint and the vrc floor will be the same as the distance between your user height's eyes and the vrc floor

that's not true right now

[robust tangle]

What I’m always seeing is that with my real world height my feet are placed exactly where they should be, I can touch the bottom of my feet with my hands perfectly. I’m just buried underground initially, which once I move my feet up to the floor using OVR, I can then touch the vr floor and it’s exactly where my real floor is.

Arms don’t over-reach or under reach either

[coral cairn]

what was the behavior in legacy ik?

[prisma meadow]

it would be great if imscale allowed you to take measurements of your body and scaled it via that

[robust tangle]

Identical behavior if I lie and say I’m 4 inches shorter, and OVR settings is not needed

On legacy with my true height my arms are wrong

[coral cairn]

I think the world scale was changed in one way, and height calculation in another. Given that the height calculation matches kung's numbers nearly exactly I'm tempted to say it's the scaling that's off somehow.

still trying to wrap my head around it all tbh

[robust tangle]

Glad it’s you and not me

Your brain cycles are appreciated

[zinc plank]

our brains are getting wrinkles tonight

[oak pendant]

That already has a post on the canny for it, but don't worry enough info has already been collected on that one. Thanks for checking on it

[strange idol]

Sure! Was just checking it had been reported properly and if you needed the extra info. Seemed easy enough to reproduce anyway though. 🙂

[runic rover]

rip 1169 :(

[woven gulch]

Measure avatar scale by arm span or height?
Am I reading this right?

[runic rover]

seems like a good change.

[dusk anvil]

dumb stupid dummy question: is your avatar actually scaled up and down, or are you scaled up or down?
had this question from the latest patch notes that just came out right now

and by "you" i mean fuckin uhhhh example if u stand up if ur legs are straight up or nah

[woven gulch]

Your "world scale" changes depending on the avatar proportions and the height you set.

[dusk anvil]

that sounds abt right thanks

[woven gulch]

Well - that's how previously it worked. I'd love to see how this change impacts everything

[oak pendant]

We previously only measured by arm span. Now we can also measure by height

[dusk anvil]

cause i dont need people seein how fuckin SHORT i am irl LMAO

[oak pendant]

It's extra important again now to be using your actual IRL height for User Real Height if you use the height measuring mode

[woven gulch]

Just use a tall avatar :)

[dusk anvil]

na cause then i feel TOO tall >:(

rlly large avatars poopoo smelly

[oak pendant]

If you set your actual IRL height as your User Real Height, and toggle on height-mode for measuring, your avatar's feet will always match, and the floor height will always be correct

[woven gulch]

Maybe I don't need to be too intense about full body proportions anymore 🤔
No more real human monkey dwarves. Will have to see

[robust tangle]

👀👀

[oak pendant]

In height mode, rather than having the leg length vary avatar to avater, the arm length will vary and legs will always match

[final sphinx]

damn that sounds interesting

[woven gulch]

I consist of entirely legs.

[dusk anvil]

i do try to be as accurate as possible to this
i still just dont like really big avatars because i feel like they take up a lot of space

[oak pendant]

(always match as long as you set your IRL height for User Real Height) set your IRL height!

[final sphinx]

Let's see if this works with my scuffed steamvr playspace with offset floors

[dusk anvil]

i forgor 💀 my irl height

[robust tangle]

*Uninstall OVR to be sure! Just because OVR says you're at zero, does not mean it's not offset

[mossy tendon]

oo 👀 im eager to try out the hip changes on head-lock

[oak pendant]

I'd recommend just using OVRAS's floor fix if you want to be sure

otherwise you could run steamvr room setup again to be sure

[dusk anvil]

Allow more forward shoulder reach
does this mean my avatars arms no longer feel short when they're accurately sized

[robust tangle]

Floor fix, for some reason, adjusts differently depending if I drop my left controller or my right controller.

[oak pendant]

Possibly, accurately sized is a very intricate thing. Because the relative width of your shoulders to the total length of arms matters too

[dusk anvil]

when the shoulder bones hit woooohhhh

[oak pendant]

In any case it will help to some extent with reaching forward

[dusk anvil]

thanks Kung from VRChat Team Official Real 2022 very cool

needed this clarification bc my avatars arms felt short but maybe thats because i need to adjust its rig

(it is very old)

[oak pendant]

An easy way to understand it is: Imagine if you put your shoulders way out too far basically where your elbows are... You'd be able to reach to the sides just fine, but when reaching forward (it would look like someone making an elbow-only forward robot pose) you obviously wouldn't be able to reach very far at all

That can help see why shoulder width matters too

[dusk anvil]

example:
on live ik when i hold my arms forward but slightly bent, my avatars arms would be bent accordingly
on beta (last build) ik, when i held my arms out the same way, my avatars arms would be stretched all the way out when they shouldn't be

have not tested this build to see if this still applied and i just need to change my avatars rig or not

will do that tomorrow maybe probably

[oak pendant]

The arms pulling your entire torso forward is removed in IK2.0

[dusk anvil]

is this part of the shoulder detection thingy

the Shoulder ThingAMaJig ™️

[oak pendant]

that would have allowed you to feel better forward reach in legacy, but so far removing torso lean has had much more positive feedback than negative

[dusk anvil]

hmmmn maybe i do have to change this eons old rig then if its the same on the new beta build

[oak pendant]

It's likely the case, on legacy arms out to the side would have still had elbow sag, so if reaching forward was just right, you'd still be in the situation of a shoulder pivot that allows less forward motion than side

[final raven]

Hmmm, height-based still doesn't feel quite right for me. Even with using my IRL height, my tracker balls still no longer line up with the top of my feet for my hyenid avatar (like it used to on legacy) which is supposed to be extremely propotional.

[oak pendant]

(not including the torso lean as well)

[final raven]

Still needing to adjust my height a few inches to get it to match up right.

[dusk anvil]

another cOOL THING i noticed

[oak pendant]

I suppose check your steamvr floor

[dawn stag]

quick question. is the new IK only visible to people in the beta, or can live users see the new ik from someone using the beta?

[final raven]

Visible to everyone

[oak pendant]

You can play with your friends on live and they'll see the new IK too

[dusk anvil]

on live ik when i put my arms all the way up: the area under my arms would stretch weirdly in a way possibly due to old weight painting
on beta ik: yeah this dont happen any more lol lmaooo!!!

[mossy tendon]

yeah the hip movement on headlock fullbody mode is way better now. sitting isnt pain

[dusk anvil]

thanks mr vrchat very cool

[oak pendant]

Glad you prefer the change

[mossy tendon]

its something i can probably fix by adjusting my neck in blender but head lock does straighten out my neck weirdly. number one is headlock mode, two is t pose

[dusk anvil]

i do not have the gamer trackers for the gamer full body but i have friendorinoos that like the change (they have the funny and i do not)

[mossy tendon]

i do not have the issue on my other main model so its probably just the angle of the neck bone from the chest to the head or something

[dawn stag]

cool, thanks!

[silk magnet]

Having the lower body drag when looking down was a huge woe, definitely good change

[oak pendant]

The alternative however is your knees will bend a bit when looking down (in head lock mode)

[silk magnet]

I'd say that's a good compromise

[mossy tendon]

yeah, the hip moving down and knees bending a bit is better than the hip moving horizontally imo

[dusk anvil]

hmm i will become interested in full body tracking and possibly get tundra trackers now because the changes vrchat has been making to how they do full body tracking are all very cool

i am very excited to try the tundras on vrchat

[oak pendant]

Head Lock allows the hip to escape strong spine bend, previously it went back to escape, (well actually previously previously in closed testing it went down like right now, but there were complaints about the knee bend so a fix was implemented... but the fix was worse that what it was fixing, so yeah bendy knees it is)

Also.... not in the patch notes because it's not intentional, but

- accidently fixed upside down hips from not working, this doesn't mean they're offically supported. They're not officially supported!! But they should work again

[dusk anvil]

me when my knees bend slightly (game breaking bug absolutely unplayable)

[mossy tendon]

haha yeah this is probably why my neck straightens out weird. head, neck, and chest bones

[dusk anvil]

awesome 👍

[mossy tendon]

time to go through the song and dance of turning off hair dynamic bones in unity while i adjust the rig 😔

[dusk anvil]

@solar cloud YO

i think you might like this octo

[silk magnet]

Accidentally fixed. I guess pretty cool. I would have liked avatar creators to be prompted to fix bad habits, but for legacy avatars makes sense to not do anything about it

[dusk anvil]

(they had an upside down hip on their rig i think so i pinged them (happy face))

[devout current]

Me very happy about this

[oak pendant]

It was an accident, I swear!

[dusk anvil]

(accidentally cures cancer) whoopsies!!

[oak pendant]

I didn't mean to fix it

[mossy tendon]

punish the reversed hip havers, find out how to undo it

[dusk anvil]

sure yep uh huh i believe you on this one kung

(i do not)

[ruby trail]

Got it, considering it a blocker from now on

[dusk anvil]

there are no accidents ever everyone knows this

[mossy tendon]

yeah i need to play with the shoulder changes and scaling changes after i fix my weird neck shit

[oak pendant]

Yeah, gotta figure out how to re-implement broken upside down hips 😈

[devout current]

Hey, you made more Avatars work with it, so I see this as a win win situation xD

[oak pendant]

(j/k of course) but again, not officially supported

[dusk anvil]

guys omg upside down hips are officially supported!!!!11!!111!!11one (joke)

[oak pendant]

https://tenor.com/view/no-god-gif-5914845

[devout current]

I still hope people stop using them...

[dusk anvil]

that one guy on vrc team accidentally pressed the big red button that unfucks upside down hips good for them

[dusk anvil]

i will now start using upside down hips effective RIGHT NOW

[devout current]

It's just good that all the older Avatars are still working especially for people who have now way of fixing it

When using a no longer maintained Avatar for example

[dusk anvil]

time to start finding the oldest avatars possible and seeing if they work now

hipster jesus where you at

[devout current]

Maybe just write everything in big red text "Stop using fucking rig hacks!" xD

[dusk anvil]

make it impact font too

[coral cairn]

oh cool you also fixed that world scale bug

[devout current]

No..... comic sans

[oak pendant]

- build 11703 implemented something bad that happens when you use upside down hips, some annoying totally unrelated bug that you'd never connect with it, we won't tell you what it is just in case: joking of course)

[dusk anvil]

upside down hip (absolutely game breaking)

(my computer exploded)

the cat has been unleashed to terminate all upside down hip bones

[devout current]

If 1173 detects a upside down hill, it will start to spin it around

[dusk anvil]

nah it does that old geddan meme when u'd tilt the n64 cartridge when playing goldeneye or somethin

[oak pendant]

Try out some old / public row avatars with the new height-based measure avatar mode, a lot of them feel way better in full body like that

[dusk anvil]

hmm this is a good idea i will do this tomorrow

(the first one i will test is nikei)

[coral cairn]

yeah with imscale dev there's very little difference between height and wingspan scaling right now so whatever weirdness there was about world scale or floor height is fixed.

[devout current]

I'll try out my Avatar with it later this evening

[final sphinx]

The calibration via urh works surprisingly well, great work!

Tried 3 avatars so far, a small humanoid furry with a rather messed up armature, and two rather small humanoid models with similar armatures

[oak pendant]

Awesome!

[final sphinx]

This is like magic, im thinking about removing the tpose pose clip from the t-pose layer

[devout current]

At least now I have a real reason to always "Fix Floor" with OVR Advanced Settings every time I start VR xD

[final sphinx]

Is it safe to do that?

[dusk anvil]

you remove t pose t pose removes YOU! (joking probably maybe idk)

[final sphinx]

Last time i tried this, the hands rotations were messed up / the hands were completely misaligned

[oak pendant]

depends on what you needed it for

but I'd be interested in a test, on a difference there if you're up for it

[mossy tendon]

yeah straightening out neck did fix head lock neck weirdness, predictably

[final sphinx]

i still got an hour before work starts, ill make a version thst doesnt tpose. But i have a feeling it will break again

[oak pendant]

I use a custom Tpose layer to position the front-back location of my feet such that the tracker balls align around the middle of my feet when non-legacy calibration mode hangs my avatar off of my face

[oak pendant]

Ah glad that could fix it

[final sphinx]

I currently use the tposelayer to display a calibration mirror and turn thr body mesh transparent / into a wireframe shader so i can see, didnt touch the original tpose clip yet, im playing the original one from the examples folder iirc

[dusk anvil]

pills that make you see open beta patch notes

no

[oak pendant]

Ah I see, that's another good use for the tpose controller

Not yet, there's discussion about it in this canny post: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/chest-trackers

[dusk anvil]

hmm i upvote :)

[oak pendant]

Do you mean something as a result of the added forward reach of the shoulders? Or better avatar scaling?

in either case, glad it's working better for you

[final sphinx]

let's try this without a tpose :o

[dusk anvil]

why is your unity LIGHT THEME

this is a CRIME

[final sphinx]

Lmao

[tame pewter]

old unity icky

[oak pendant]

Ohh I see, so you specify a custom tpose animator controller, but leave the animation blank?

[dusk anvil]

you criMINAL

(modbot moment)

[oak pendant]

hmm... yeah that's not really intended to work,

though curious what happens

[coral cairn]

I do feel like the scaling is still just a smidge too small now.

but much better than before

[oak pendant]

In height measure mode?

[dusk anvil]

height measure mode
this a thing that EXISTS??? yooooo

[oak pendant]

Yeah check out the patch notes

[dusk anvil]

(my mind is fucking blown this game is great)

[coral cairn]

both. immersive scaler is now making the two scaling modes the same more or less (<1 in off)
It's pretty good and it's to the point where you should probably collect more opinions in the canny so I'll post stuff there.

[mossy tendon]

oh no, a set of my older avatars have the neck thing too 😔 easy blender fix at least

[dusk anvil]

neck thing?? i have been entirely zoned out this last hour

[mossy tendon]

oh, so i think in head lock mode, if your neck bone isnt straight up, it will get straightened out to be straight up when in headlock mode
so like if the neckbone is tilted forward, then it will straighten up, so your neck will move back

#ik-2 message

[dusk anvil]

OH

thats athing that happens

[mossy tendon]

can kind of see it on the choker

[dusk anvil]

yea

start speed typing a canny if you have not already

[oak pendant]

To adjust outside of what it's doing now is probably not recommendable as it would depend on individual avatars. It is simply matching the world scale so the distance between your set User Real Height and the SteamVR floor matches the distance from your avatar's viewball and the origin/floor

[oak pendant]

replying to ^

[mossy tendon]

i dont know if that's an actual issue that needs fixing. but i guess it doesnt hurt to make one

[dusk anvil]

unity and facebook being like "no legs ik hard" while yall are over here like:

(in a good way)

[final sphinx]

🦵🦵

[dusk anvil]

SCARY!

(i am now unity real)

[oak pendant]

Yeah, if you're seeing an issue doesn't hurt to post on canny, will be easier to see if it's just you or others based on voting and comments

[oak pendant]

If you want your mind blown, try out some old / public row / very non full body proportioned avatars in measure height mode, they don't actually feel that bad (at least in my testing)

[coral cairn]

the scaler edits the avatar so that they're the same. It's a blender plugin. This way I don't need to choose between arms that fit and legs that fit, it just gets both right.

[dusk anvil]

time to try out the most disporportionate avatar possible

(crab)

[tame pewter]

ferret

[mossy tendon]

i needa try to scale an avatar once this is all done so that it works perfectly in lock head/hip mode

[oak pendant]

Ah nice, it might be targeting the old VRC internal ratio though, so you might want to just match height, and then slowly scale your arms on blender iteratively until they feel right again

[final sphinx]

ah shit my avas now stuck in the musclepose and calibration doesnt work. having NO clip at all is not a great idea

[oak pendant]

Does it actually bug out?

[final sphinx]

im trying to find a more subtle pose like an apose or sth

[oak pendant]

or just calibrate wrongly?

You could export your pose from blender too

[dusk anvil]

you remove t pose t pose removes YOU! (joking probably maybe idk)
hah a i was correcto i think

[coral cairn]

nope you told me the exact new ratio so it's targeting that now 🙂
I'm not complaining, it's really much better overall now than before.

[loud patio]

Yep that's what happens when you remove the T-pose in the descriptor

[final sphinx]

wait nvm thats related to space calibrator

[dusk anvil]

any ways i am going to the bed good night vr forums talk about vr in vr

[final sphinx]

rip

[dusk anvil]

i will test things tomorrow :)

[oak pendant]

Oh turns out that ratio wasn't .415 I checked the wrong iteration of working on it

[final sphinx]

welp

time to find another pose ig

[oak pendant]

Ah so calibration doesn't bug into not working, but also yeah, looks funny

[final sphinx]

[coral cairn]

that could explain the 1 inch or so difference

[final sphinx]

also the hands are rotated as before when i tried custom clips so yeah

im just trying to get rid off the network-sent tpose

[loud patio]

Why?

[oak pendant]

The correct ratio is 0.412 (measured from neck, not head)

sorry about that, it had gone through some iteration

[final sphinx]

idk, its no longer required for the armspan measurement right

[deft spruce]

Y'all should consider implementing a red warning in the SDK showing that flipped hip bones are not supported (if a flipped hip bone is detected)

[loud patio]

But it should still be there. Especially if you ever plan on doing elbow tracking. It will be required.

[final sphinx]

oop oki

[mossy tendon]

red warning would be rough since its not something that can be fixed in unity

[deft spruce]

But it would at least tell Avatar makers to stop flipping the hip bone.

[terse kestrel]

We really don't want people to have flipped hips, red warning will likely happen

And there's no other place for us to put it. It'd have to go in Unity.

[coral cairn]

No worries and I wouldn't be surprised to see it change again if it does. Thanks for letting me know!

[final sphinx]

tried some more public and custom avas with sizes ranging from .5 to 2m and the new calibration just works well

[terse kestrel]

I'm trying out my older, not-human-scaled avatar and wow

i'm uh, shocked how well this works

red warning is not a stop

error is a stop

different class of thing

[mossy tendon]

ohh
if not a stop that's cool then

[deft spruce]

Yeah, should at least make it clear in the SDK when one is detected that flipped hip bone is not supported, and is highly likely break with future updates.

[terse kestrel]

we don't use red warnings

rn

might be mis-remembering really old SDK though

[final sphinx]

sdk2 ava, built in 2020, works well with the height measurement way

[terse kestrel]

oh well w/e, SDK warnings out of scope for IK beta

[hazy sleet]

Added a toggle to measure avatar scale by either arm-span or by height

Is that measurement based on the avatar or the user?

I realized my user height being set to 6'6 instead of my actual height of 5'11 might've worked best for me because my wing span is roughly 6'6.

[deft spruce]

It would be good though to really convince users to stop flipping the hip bone somehow through an SDK warning, at least, when detected.

[oak pendant]

You must set your User Real Height to your IRL value for correct behavior with measure height mode

User real height is based on the user, the VRChat system automatically makes a measurement based on the avatar, and matches the two up

[oak pendant]

I mean, if I wanted to intentionally break it I could really break it. Could be a new feature for ultra-mega broken joke avatars (j/k or maybe not? better not use an upside down hip or you might be risking it)

[mossy tendon]

need to try real height mode on the monstrous blueman with huge arms avatar

[hazy sleet]

I'll give this update a try but setting my actual height did not work out for me.

[deft spruce]

I mean, that's up to you. Do you want to force people to use normal hip bone?

[oak pendant]

If you're using the height mode make sure to toggle it on, it's off by default

[oak pendant]

If we need to break it again, (the vector it provided was useful but I stopped using it, so it's accidently fixed) people might be happier if they were discouraged now instead of uploading all their avatars with it.

If the hip's orientation ever turns out to be useful again, there's a strong chance we'd use it. At which point those avatars would break again

[tame pewter]

does the TrackingType parameter get set to above 6pt if using elbow/knee trackers?

[final sphinx]

no

its still 6

with 10pt

[oak pendant]

Not currently, if you've got a specific use case you can set up a canny post for it

There's a problem with two different types of "8"

[tame pewter]

yeah i just realized that

i don’t have a specific use in mind, but thought i’d ask as my locomotion logic doesn’t expect anything above 6 atm

[oak pendant]

Ah yeah, that's part of the idea for not changing it, avoid breaking existing animator controllers set up for 6

[final sphinx]

heightbased even works without the floorfix and 10pt haha

[oak pendant]

if there was a strong use case well upvoted, I'm sure we could find a solution to the double 8 issue, but otherwise probably best to leave at 6

[oak pendant]

Nice

[tame pewter]

i’m sure there probably will be more reason for it once OSC can mess with tracking

again no specific use off the top of my head, but seems like something that could still be useful

[oak pendant]

Yeah, possibly, at this point it's in the zone of waiting to see if anyone will make a canny, and waiting to see if anyone would upvote it

[honest apex]

was the IK measured by arm-span or by height on the last update?

[final sphinx]

Also i tried to lay on my belly with my avatars tonight, it worked well. Wasnt possible before. Thx again for this ik update

(hiptracker on back ofc)

[final raven]

Ok wow, height-based is magical. Going through all of my favourite avatars and even the most extremely proportional just work, goddamn.

[oak pendant]

Awesome, the scaling mode is actually available for 3pt as well, since they sometimes need to touch the floor and can't reach

[final sphinx]

players in 3pt need to manually calibrate?

[oak pendant]

no it just sets their scale as usual

but set's it (instantly) based on this measurement method

[final sphinx]

alright

[devout current]

btw can you also change user real hight if you are in 3-point mode?

(in the QM)

cause that didn't work before

[oak pendant]

Yeah you can, yeah that's not the case on live if I remember correctly

[devout current]

yup, that's why I was asking

[oak pendant]

I enabled that in the QM again, because it does have effect on 3pt

[devout current]

Yeah, I think I also made a canny when that got implemented to also enable it for 3-point tracking

since it's also really usefull for that case

[final raven]

Good to know ^^

[oak pendant]

Hope I can remember to find it and mark complete when this comes out of beta

[rancid glen]

ohboy, being able to swap to old scaling, so good, thanks for that

[tame pewter]

https://vrchat.canny.io/feature-requests/p/1154-add-hight-changeing-to-qm-even-with-disabled-fbt

[rancid glen]

also the new shoulder movement is a lot better, my arms actually match up even on full stretch for the very first time

[tame pewter]

third result when searching fbt in feature request canny

might be worth a quick scan of those results once beta is done

just to close any old posts

[oak pendant]

thanks, marked appropriately

[devout current]

perfect ^^

I also just searched it up, and saw it was already marked as "Available in Open Beta" and was a bit confused there for a second xD

Now I just need the new IK to work with more strange spine / chest configurations etc and I'm happy xD
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/chest-bone-gets-moved-back-when-its-not-directly-above-spine

[mossy tendon]

if anyone else runs into neck weirdness in head lock https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/in-head-lock-mode-necks-angle-can-be-strange

[devout current]

Btw Kung, are you also working to make the neck move better when in lock both?

Cause atm it sometimes (at least in what I tested before yesterday) it looked a bit weird

or have you already changes something about that?

[final sphinx]

I wonder if i can make my char play a different clip while in tpose over the net by using an islocal check but prob not haha

[solar cloud]

Already fixed on my end. Just preparing for big beta testing of my avatars now.

[final raven]

Found a bug relating to SDK2 avatars (on beta-ik), and their animations being locked to the head so emotes like die or backflip will have them be floating in the air into your viewpoint. Gonna get that canny up soonish~

[devout current]

Ew SDK2

[digital grove]

Sounds unlikely to be fixed as it is deprecated

[final raven]

Oh yeah I'm aware~

[harsh lagoon]

ah yes finally, the abandonment can finally begin

[regal oasis]

well, this doesn't mean they're not willing to fix actual bugs yet. all depends whether they find it important enough.

i kinda hope they don't. the faster it's gone the better.

[devout current]

it's not deprecated yet though, it will be in the futrue

[final raven]

Also anyone else notice how you and others don't seem to get comically pulled away by the hip anymore if your hip tracker loses tracking?

[devout current]

I mean if you lock it to the head then it wouldn't happen

also when locked to both

[final raven]

ah yeah, makes sense.

[ionic heron]

It's considered deprecated: <#open-beta-announcements message>

[devout current]

we have not reached that point yet though

[ionic heron]

It's deprecated, but ye maintenance updates potentially

though the last SDK2 beta SDK was on 11/22/21

all other beta SDKs after that have been SDK3 only

[devout current]

which means stuff like this should still be fixed

[devout current]

yeah ik cause SDK2 has seen no changes, the only thing they still do is to make sure it still works

which they don't really need to update the SDK for, but the game it self

[harsh lagoon]

its basically, if its an easy fix for something absolutely vital for sdk2 to operate, then they'll try and fix it. But they probably wont fix something if its hard to fix or not possible

[robust tangle]

After testing I couldn’t honestly see a real difference between the measure by height or measured by wing Spand

[harsh lagoon]

i saw a small difference i think!

[robust tangle]

I guess it would mostly be apparent for extremely disproportional avatars

[harsh lagoon]

it seemed to me like my arm length and stretching while using wing span was a bit better and didnt reach max length and stretch nearly as much as with height

also the latest update to the shoulder reach movement is soooo good

so glad my avatars shoulders can actually be used! i spent so damn long weight painting them and now they can be used

[drifting steeple]

@terse kestrel and all developers team. hello the ik 2 is much better in particular for the tracking of the torso and the legs but the view point still drift when we are sit and lay down. no so much like the actual but it's still need to be fix. and can you add option to memories the tracking when we change avatars too ? it's will be perfect

[terse kestrel]

Please don't ping me or the other members of the team with feedback! Read #open-beta-announcements to see where to post your feedback.

[drifting steeple]

Sure i will do next time. but now it's useless you have the information so.

[terse kestrel]

I will not be doing anything with your feedback. It's 2AM for me and I'm not working, lol.

Please read the posts and provide your feedback in the proper place.

[drifting steeple]

yup

[terse kestrel]

If you do not post it in the feedback boards it will not be seen.

[drifting steeple]

ookeeeee

[oak pendant]

Your viewpoint shouldn't drift if you choose the "Lock Head" option in the quick menu settings page

[drifting steeple]

Hooooow oke i will take a look thanks for the tips

[devout current]

When you use lock to hip, your view point will always drift a bit.

[oak pendant]

it's this one

note the text below says lock all because that's what's selected in the screenshot

but click where that arrow is

[devout current]

Short Kung xD

[patent root]

it’s a decent height honestly

not too short not too tall

[devout current]

ik I was just joking :p

[harsh lagoon]

5'7 isnt short though!

thats completely average 😡

[drifting steeple]

Thank you very much i will try it

[raw wadi]

Last time I try to put a random pose or animation the hand end up rotated down after calibration.

[final sphinx]

yeah i had that this morning again

but i meant a remote one

i dont want ppl to see me tposing qwq

feels weird being the only fullbody pcvr user ever tposing

[raw wadi]

I know but that's not working

[final sphinx]

i mean i could derender my ava

we have full controll using the
tpose>fx
layer transition

[raw wadi]

Not sure if transition happen remotely on the layer above when calibrating

[patent root]

but wouldn’t that defeat the purpose of calibration?

if you can’t see what you’re aligning with

[final sphinx]

IsLocal exists

i swap my shader locally when calibrating, same as the calib mirror

[devout current]

Why all of this effort? xD

[final sphinx]

idk how limited you are with remote displays

[devout current]

Just calibrate in your home world and done xD

[final sphinx]

bc i must recalibrate on each avatar swap?

this shit breaks often enough

[devout current]

yeah ik I also need to do that lol

[final sphinx]

and often leaves me uncalibrated even when rejoining a world / different instance

[raw wadi]

Just stand still and look forward.no need to see yourself

[final sphinx]

you say that

mixedvr is drifing me tracker points all the time

[devout current]

Yeah I do the same

So funny that I get better results doing this than while actually looking at a mirror

[raw wadi]

Close your eyes. Feel the pose. Let go any stress. Take a big breath. Now press those two trigger.

[devout current]

Yup

[unborn whale]

I tried what someone suggested earlier - looking down like 20 degrees or so when calibrating - and wow that magically made the calibration almost perfect. I then tried this with head& hip lock on, my neck wasnt bent over weird and my spine/chest did no weird pose....
The only slight problem is if i look up too much my whole avatar lifts off the ground maybe a few mm, barely noticeable. Feels really good.

[final sphinx]

so i can make a tpose clip with a 20 deg backwards rotated neck?

[unborn whale]

no idea if thats the same effect

[zenith glacier]

thats because the calibration expects your body to be in a straight line like tpose is, as soon as you look into a mirror you tend to look slightly down, which pushes the armature down as well.

[devout current]

Makes sense

[final raven]

Mmmmm, no can do chief. Gotta have the tracker balls match up as closely on my avatar as the same IRL tbh :v
You ever calibrated with your tracker balls offset from your avatars feet and tried twisting them and watch as they pivot instead of rotate? Feels very weird.
Crude MS paint for demonstration. :v

[zenith glacier]

then you align yourself properly and go pack into tpose like position. and once you have it figured out for your avatar, you dont need a mirror anymore. 🙂

[final raven]

bro i got ocd 😔
i'd rather a mirror so i can get calibrated quickly then spend twenty minutes without one until i get it just right

[drifting steeple]

its work ! just need memories fullbody when we change avatars and its will be perfect

[carmine gate]

already planned https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/save-ik-between-changing-avatars

[drifting steeple]

yeeee

oh the run animation made "Weeeeee" when we move

[tawdry glen]

Bruh.

Guess the bot didn't like my joke lol.

[carmine gate]

too many of the same letter next to each other and the message you just spent 20 minutes crafting gets eaten into the void

[zenith glacier]

all avatars, custom locomotion controllers, etc? a little bit more information would be nice.

[gleaming imp]

Hi~ is there a world that let's you see the bone information?
How would I be able to see this?

[drifting steeple]

i will check at unity in a bit

[zenith glacier]

kung wrote it in the announcement, its this world https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2

[calm torrent]

Was there a canny post for height scaling mode? I want to upvote something, as it's a nice feature to have

[zenith glacier]

@oak pendant you probably want to pin the world in this channel, so people can find or point to it a bit quicker as soon as you guys post more open beta announcements/updates. here is the link again
https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2

[gleaming imp]

Thx~~

[maiden rock]

What poses or body positions are most effective to test the accuracy of the IK? Short of breaking out a yoga for dummies book.

[zenith glacier]

you should probably test it with another avatar, if the issue occurs as well. Might be a rig thing one would have to look into

[drifting steeple]

Or how can i put the complete run animation ?in fullbody i have see we not have the complete animation the head and the shoulder don't move and in desktop or without fullbody we have a nice run animation

[zenith glacier]

for debugging purposes in unity its complicated i guess. Your avatar does however the complete running animation, upper body, your arms and head are just getting ignored and instead they use your headset and hands position. The animations with the standard controller are the same for desktop, half body and full body

[drifting steeple]

it's not that ?

[robust tangle]

Personally I like that I finally know when people are calibrating, or at least, I like when others see me calibrating. Communication good

once the IK beta goes live they'll just know that's what t-posing means

no more "uh, you're spazzing out" while calibrating

[final sphinx]

isnt it like this for a few updates now already

[drifting steeple]

i will try to put only the Force Locomotion animation for 6 point tracking to see i suspect the Auto-Footstep to doing shit

[rare trench]

Just wanted to check, with the new elbow restriction when they would go into your body, do you have to t-pose when calibrating for it? Or can having your arms at the side work too?

[robust tangle]

Possible but I only noticed it with the IK beta

[final raven]

https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/11702-emotes-on-sdk2-avatars-are-locked-to-the-viewpoint-while-in-beta-ik-mode

[dusk anvil]

"yo bro why's your avatar power walking"

[zenith glacier]

this is the one we provide, i did not see any issues yesterday, i will double check today once im going online.

[last brook]

how hard would it be to add support for shoulder tracking ?

[robust tangle]

As you add more tracking points you start having less raw data and more mere rotation hints. Which don’t contribute as much. Chest is in a similar issue

If you want to lock all the trackers, hypothetical shoulders included, you’ll need a very tailored armature

Buying those expensive extra trackers just to get some rotation hinting might not be what people are expecting

[drifting steeple]

it was that the animation is fix

[last brook]

what about using a suit made out of IMU like slime vr , that would not be expensive AND provide "accurate" rotation data

[carmine gate]

"not be expensive"

[robust tangle]

I have absolutely no experience in how slime vr works, what data its senses, or how that data is processed into virtual trackers

[sharp geyser]

for 6 point/knee tracking, t posing isnt necessary; for elbow tracking it's necessary

[carmine gate]

SlimeVR uses IMUs (accel+gyro) and get the rotation data of the 5 joints or higher needed to feed into a forward kinematics rig

[zenith glacier]

huh? what did you exactly do? just put in our controller or turned the force 6point on?

[carmine gate]

by constraining the rig to the rotation of the sensors, and by drift-correcting every other sensors based on those same rig constraints, you get virtual trackers