ik-2

[digital grove]

I hope 13 point tracking is the next goal

[warm lintel]

That’s so many trackers to wear o.0

[digital grove]

tundras or vive 3.0 are very small and light so it's fine

[brazen condor]

I think outside of 6 point tracking its kinda just for dance peeps

[warm lintel]

I have 3.0s

[brazen condor]

I can't find much use further than 6, but I might try 10

[digital grove]

don't discriminate the dancers

[brazen condor]

Hey I dance too

[warm lintel]

Yeah honestly I’d be too lazy to put on more than like 5 vive trackers

[brazen condor]

(poorly)

[warm lintel]

Mainly just wanted the elbows

[brazen condor]

I mean that the level of accuracy is only useful for dancers or someone who needs that accuracy

Maybe people who wanna get as close as possible

[digital grove]

more expression is always good

[brazen condor]

Diminishing returns in theory but yes

[digital grove]

face tracking, eye tracking, and 13 point tracking will save us all

[warm lintel]

Yeah but at that point I feel like you should just wear a mocap suit

[brazen condor]

If VRC supported Mocap tho

[digital grove]

yes but those add two zeros to the price

[brazen condor]

Actually

[rose beacon]

if you write your own steamvr driver it can.

[snow mirage]

You can just do that with a toggle on your avatar

[brazen condor]

Since VRC does IK locally, actually in theory you could do Mocap

Maybe if OSC exposes the skeleton

[brazen condor]

It needs a universal option

[digital grove]

without chest and shoulders it still looks a bit unnatural

[brazen condor]

It looks too jank and adding it would remove a lot of the reasons people mod

[warm lintel]

I’m confident they will make mocap suits for Vr users at a reasonable price eventually

Might be a while but still

[tight aurora]

not worth the CPU cost

[brazen condor]

In what manner?

[tight aurora]

mocap is really heavy

on your system

[robust tangle]

Sadly, the Index Remote root translation bug is NOT fixed. https://vrchat.canny.io/avatar-30/p/bugbuild-1004-avatars-30-emotes-on-index-do-not-have-root-transform-applied-prop

[brazen condor]

When we say really heavy

Do we mean "Running 2 AAA games at once"

[tight aurora]

regardless of whether you run it on your cpu or gpu

[brazen condor]

Or bitcoin mining on your phone

If its the first, in theory a high end system with good multi-core could

If its the latter, you right

[clever thicket]

[brazen condor]

Not really feasible without some sort of intermediary computer inbetween

[tight aurora]

your vr performance will suffer (source: mocap drivers exist)

[brazen condor]

Fair

One idea

Computer A sends OSC data of the IK to Computer B

[tight aurora]

april tags + owotrack / aughip is a better solution

[brazen condor]

So the IK is calculated on a different computer than the VR

[brazen condor]

Whats that

[warm lintel]

I literally bought base stations and vive trackers after using that

I was like hell no this shit sucks

[tight aurora]

yeah the apriltags hip freaks out

apriltags are lightweight visual tracking
owotrack / aughip are used to give you a decent hip because apriltags hip sucks

[river wyvern]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/10-point-hip-issue-lock-hip-and-head-produce-stiffness-in-hip-area posted to canny hope this helps

[brazen condor]

I just watched that video

I'm trying to gauge what you mean by stiffness

[river wyvern]

positional. Its not matching to how far out Im pushing my hip out irl

[brazen condor]

odd thing

Would you go to the Beta IK testing world and send a screenshot of your bones?

I think it might be your hip bone might be wack, it also could be an actual issue

I can't tell, bone data would determine which

[normal nymph]

pelvis

[river wyvern]

Nah its not wack at all hold on

[brazen condor]

https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2

[river wyvern]

heres the hip bone

[brazen condor]

🇵

[brazen condor]

I can't quite tell where the hip bone is on the avatar

Can you do overlay?

The position looks right I do agree, compared to the hip

[brazen condor]

Hrm

I'm not an expert but the bone might be too low, I'll let Kung or someone more knowledgable check

[river wyvern]

Its correct. I'm a from scratch modeller. This rig also works in neosVR 11point with no issue

[brazen condor]

Post the bones on the Canny as well

[river wyvern]

Yeah Im about to

[final moss]

Just bought elbow trackers

why did I

[brazen condor]

You won't be a rex

[final moss]

discord moment

[flint yew]

lol

[brazen condor]

So you could elbow your enemies

Obviusly

[final moss]

I mean the reply

[brazen condor]

But you did buy the elbow trackers to elbow your enemies right

If not to defeat your enemies whats the point

(I figured just wanted to joke)

[gusty ridge]

My legs are too short on the beta :/

[brazen condor]

Are you sinking through the floor?

https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/feet-under-the-floor

If so upvote this canny

[gusty ridge]

I had my avatar made proportioned and I used proper height, but now I float

[brazen condor]

I had the issue and already reported my feet being through the floor constantly

Float?

[gusty ridge]

my legs became shorter and tracking balls are below legs

[brazen condor]

Ok I haven't seen floating I've seen sinking

hrm

Interesting

Can you get some pictures of what you mean?

[fiery plinth]

Is there a new reference skeleton for this much better ik

[brazen condor]

Not to my knowledge, ask Kung once they get back maybe they will cook something up soon

[urban marsh]

hello. Basically, I really like the new IK, but there is one thing that bothers me.
there is one thing that bothers me. It's cuter when she waves with her underarms closed, but when she turns her hands to the other side to greet someone, instead of inside, she ends up with her elbows open in a not-so-cute pose. Is it the same for everyone? Sorry if this is in the wrong thread or something.

[fiery plinth]

Hecc yeah, cuz the old one seems to not agree in the spine tightness area (whatever that means ill find out i swear!)

[gusty ridge]

new

old

heoght set to irl

[brazen condor]

Thats new ._.

Is your height accurate and your not using playspace mover?

[wintry gazelle]

surprisingly my digitigrade (parallelogram bones) legs didn't get broke, though I did have to adjust my height taller

[sudden plank]

IK beta seems to have a problem seeing all of my trackers at once. SteamVR sees them, fpsvr sees them, all of them are tracking perfectly in steam, but vrc puts one or two of them in the floor a few feet away.
Anyone have any idea what could be happening? I've restarted, unplugged, and restarted everything again and all it does is change which tracker VRChat doesn't "see".

[gusty ridge]

yes

[digital grove]

time to buy trackers for elbows

[gusty ridge]

my normal avatar - I've adjusted it to be proportionate for me, so I don't playspace, or cheat with height

[digital grove]

did you set the roles

[gusty ridge]

and most avatars are ok for me

[strong nova]

So, about animations, they go in Feature Requests then?

[urban marsh]

My wallet is killing me.；；

[sudden plank]

I believe so. Knee tracking works perfectly, elbow and foot work perfectly too, but it seems to randomly decide one of them isn't there properly.

[brazen condor]

Depends on which animations

There is one in the canny about 6 point tracking moving animations

[brazen condor]

Understandable

[strong nova]

I wanted to involve feedback about the fall animation. Basically, when you jump in full body on a flat surface, it still twitches your body as if you fell anyway. I wanted to see if they could increase the threshold.

[brazen condor]

Could you elaberate

"It still twitches as if you fell anyway" What do you mean

[sudden plank]

You can fix that with an edited Base layer

[brazen condor]

Like you jump IRL, what do you expect versus what is happening

[sudden plank]

Heck, I can DM you what to set as the base layer if you'd like

[strong nova]

One second.

[wintry gazelle]

kinda curious if the Leap Motion v5 elbow points are accurate enough for IK purposes

(though idk if VRChat supports OpenXR hands yet, or if OpenXR hands even include elbows)

[strong nova]

This shouldn't be default. Always been a pet peeve of mine. I always thought the fall threshold should have been adjusted.

[brazen condor]

Oh yah I remember ye from earlier

We tried dancing

(To varying levels of success on my part)

Hrm ye

Your right it is a bit too high

[sudden plank]

Yeah, I have the fix for that. And the fix for when you get to low your chest wiggling

[strong nova]

Should I bother to submit this as feedback? Feature requests? IK Beta forum?

[tawdry glen]

This is WAY funnier than it has any right to be lol.

[wintry gazelle]

it doesn't :/ but the wrist is supposed to always point towards the elbow so I guess there's that

[solar cloud]

on 3pt tracking i have to set my height thing way higher to prevent overreach now

well not really prevent but mitigating it

[strong nova]

Also, hands on hips seem off. Putting in a Canny on this.
EDIT: Thank you to all the devs for looking into it! Much improvements have been made. ❤️
EDIT EDIT: COMPLETED IN CANNY. THANKS!

[vital inlet]

It's not perfect

But it works well for the "non-niche" things

Source: a peer of mine

[brazen condor]

I don't think VRC has a way of guessing your hip size relative to your arms

So in theory it couldn't ever line up

Unless your avatar had the same hip size as you

[strong nova]

Thread for this now.
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feedback-elbows-for-hands-on-hips-position-looks-awkward

[robust tangle]

Sadly it is not. DX https://vrchat.canny.io/avatar-30/p/bugbuild-1004-avatars-30-emotes-on-index-do-not-have-root-transform-applied-prop

[ancient geode]

ya it got left out i guess

[green gorge]

i got stuck in a tpose after sitting in a station

[oak crow]

hmm, sitting on a lot of avatars looks pretty bad now

my back is straight, but the avatar slouches 😂

[minor rampart]

@terse kestrel

Can confirm. I tried this with a fresh Rex avatar upload:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/220513312335593473/946967317244424243/VRChat_1920x1080_2022-02-25_20-55-26.580.png

The issue I mentioned earlier, with going cross legged is still present.

I made an issue report about it.

In general, the new leg/knee IK is kinda overly sensitive. I used to be able to dangle my feet off the edge of my bed and swing them around and it largely mirroed what I was doing IRL---but now it makes my leg stance look super wide and the slightest movement makes my knees and legs move very dramatically

Need me to test/do anything else?

[terse kestrel]

please ensure its in the feedback board! pinging me wont accelerate things or etc. :p

[minor rampart]

my apologies! And yeah, I did.

[terse kestrel]

thats all you gotta do then, ty! and no worries

[strong nova]

Someone brought up the point that one of the bones for the Rex avatar is actually upside down to fix an old bug that is now irrelevant.

I hope that brings up some insight. You may have to contact the avatar creator to fix that issue.

[rustic berry]

orrr fix it yourself in blender lol

[robust tangle]

i think bugs related to upsidedown hips are not bugs :P

[oak crow]

I think what's causing issues is that, well, when sitting, the hips tracker doesn't move, right? so when shifting positions, hip doesn't rotate at all, but the chest/spine do

[coral cairn]

Is the world scaling to arm length ratio the same? I won't be able to test until Monday sadly.

[oak crow]

so VRC thinks I'm in some weird slouched position while my back is straight

[strong nova]

That's Nota question to ask here. Try #vrchat-general-1.

[oak crow]

hmm, an avatar that I fixed nearly perfectly to my proportions breaks when sitting

[ionic heron]

do you really need to ask in 13 channels

[wooden lion]

my arm span is too short in the ik update

i have my height calibrated to my real height in oculus, steam, and vrchat

[solar cloud]

i dont have any knowledge about rigging, is there any upside down hip? https://i.imgur.com/kYlI9Fi.png

[tranquil cipher]

yes, this is an upside down hip

[solar cloud]

mmh

[silver geyser]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/390924372782612480/857200376842027028/Humanoid_Rig_VRChat.png picture from the pin section of the Avatar rigging Channel

[solar cloud]

and having upside down hips now causes issues?

[ionic heron]

they've caused issues for a long while

that was an old FBT rig ""fix"" a couple years ago, which was patched

[tiny perch]

yep

[solar cloud]

mmh if it causes any issues ingame guess im fucked

[oak crow]

for some reason avatars that were by default okay, but not perfect have gone to near perfect, while the avatar that I fixed to be perfect for my proportions has gone from perfect to a mess 😂

I guess it now cares less about actual lengths of the bones compared to the body using it than about... how close it gets to some preset?

[solar cloud]

i can just hope i wont face any issues since i cant fix it myself and would need to get someone to fix it for me. Besides that having to basically redo the whole setup which would be an absolute pain in the ass in unity.

but i also cant test

i dont have fbt

[bleak anvil]

That is an easy fix honestly

[solar cloud]

i dont know anything about how to use blender or rigging

even just how to only display the bones took me a while to figure out

[hazy sleet]

Same. Not only that but my finger tips used to touch. Now I need to set my height to 6'10 to do that

[gusty ridge]

Also, I don't think I can go more correct than this

[dusk anvil]

oh hey @strong nova saw me whip out this avatar to do the default dance really fast in the open beta instance sippbox was hosting

[solar cloud]

anyone can test my avatars in open beta?

[oak crow]

your own proportions aren't necessarily exactly the same as those, and VRChat might use other proportions for avatars than that

[gusty ridge]

it works perfectly for legacy with my IRL height and I did tweak it for my proportions

[ionic heron]

It's a pretty easy fix - select the avatar's armature in object mode, go to edit mode, grab the hip bone, and flip it
either hold ctrl and move it to snap turn it, or set it's rotation to 0 0 0

[oak crow]

oh yes, I have an avatar that worked 100% perfectly in legacy for me, I tweaked it for my proportions and everything, but in the new one

it's a total mess

the avatar's feet no longer are anywhere near my actual feet, while before it was 1:1 match

[hazy sleet]

Yeah, the space callibration is definitely off, by almost a foot

[solar cloud]

how do i export the avatar?

[oak crow]

and, some avatars slouch massively

while others don't

[solar cloud]

as fbx

[oak crow]

note, I've never used fake heights in VRC

[solar cloud]

i always had to use a fake height

[oak crow]

I also don't use any weird tweaks

[silver geyser]

there should be a fbx file for your avatars somewhere in your Unity project

[ionic heron]

Go up to File > Export > .FBX

If you have issues with the avatar, try collada .dae
Blender's FBX exporter is kinda jank sometimes

[solar cloud]

collada?

[ionic heron]

It's another model interchange file format, also widely supported like .FBX

[solar cloud]

selecting hip and changing anything moves the whole armature

[ionic heron]

You're still in object mode - select the armature in object mode, then switch to edit mode in at the top-left
also should prob move to #3d-modeling o:

[river wyvern]

Twist bones are causing unexpected rig errors with 10 point tracking. Still looking into this, the fix is to completely remove them. Constraints are having issues as well

[scarlet quarry]

So if your avatar has any intermediary wrist bones or digigrade legs using parent constraints, you should expect issues?

[river wyvern]

Yes it folds into itself Im still testing bases at the moment but it was the common denominator. Which I tried my base without twist it worked fine

[scarlet quarry]

Damn. Ill test it out later too. My arms have those and my hip bone is still upside down.

Thanks for the heads up, now I've got time to fix it before tomorrow night

[grim haven]

So limb distance is an issue, head lock on it's own completely breaks my avatar, locking both head and hips breaks my neck.

[icy ferry]

i'm a little late, but if you need people to test i know some of us would be willing. i wouldn't mind at least.

[solar cloud]

yeah would be neat

[icy ferry]

i'm down. just let me know whenever. i've been having a blast testing avatars with the beta.

[solar cloud]

https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_860bdea8-0499-4c16-8170-5683a3a3ab8a&instanceId=22130~private(usr_771d461e-a7f5-4b7f-9a23-c6f921741644)~region(eu)~nonce(73E661B429FEE60090200E2A35F8AF99A6D2D693F5298139)

[icy ferry]

i'll set up my vr!!

[robust tangle]

LOVE the head locked fullbody mode

[pliant gale]

Sorry if it's a stupid question, but is chest tracking also supported?

[fiery plinth]

im lovin the both locked mode! Went through and made my hip bone parallel with my legs and my chest/neck/head in a line with a combination of apply rest pose and edit mode movin to make it as tight as possible and it seems to be working as intended now. Have to set the irl height thing to five inches above actual height though, I might just have oddly long arms.

[steady lantern]

The IK beta introduced a lot more arm pull (where my VR arms is a lot shorter than my IRL arms) for me, on every avatar I have tested so far.

This issue might be related to @viscid hatch's report where their trackers are under the floor, and their arm length shortened. (I also experienced trackers going under the floor.)
Link to their post: #ik-2 message

For reference, this is the old IK:

And here is the new IK:

The index controller's tracking ring (which usually floats above the back of the hand) is now at the second section of my finger.

(For reference, my user real height is set to 175cm on both sets of pictures, matching my irl height.)

[solar cloud]

so my alpha version of my hobkin has now a fixed hip

now it works with head locked

[silver geyser]

cool

hopefully it wasn't too painful to fix

[solar cloud]

i just suddenly have instead of 70 bones 106 bones

[robust tangle]

Have you tested this on head lock mode on the gear menu

Both options were included for this reason

[coral cairn]

So world scaling is completely different now? Is it at least a constant?

[robust tangle]

Chest tracker is not included no

[coral cairn]

I'll probably need to update immersive scaler then if so

[robust tangle]

It’s still based on wingspan from what I see

[tame pewter]

i didn’t notice too much difference arm wise, but i was running into the issue of the trackers being in the floor with my irl height set

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feet-under-the-floor

assuming was running into that

[coral cairn]

You'll notice foot position being different with world scale first.

[robust tangle]

When I loaded in with my previous height (which was 4 inches shorter than my true height) I was still level with the ground but I noticed my arms greatly over reached my avatars. Once I set it back to my actual real world height, arm length was correct although my feet were sinking and I had to use advanced settings to scoot me back up.

@coral cairn

[coral cairn]

So they just changed shoulder/chest ik to not extend as much?

[robust tangle]

TLDR my accurate real world height setting now gives correct arm reach where as previously I had to say I was 4 inches shorter than true height. But as side effect I need to scoot my playspace down using OVR which I did not have to do before

But Once I do that absolutely everything is perfect

Can even reach the floor and it’s the correct height

[coral cairn]

So both your Avatars feet and your own were clipping through the floor?

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I'm convinced that the floor height is a bug and not just people being surprised by the different scale relationship with user real height. That will probably be the first thing I go after once I have time to start working through open beta issues

[solar cloud]

i need to go to 2m height despite me being like 1,70m

before i used 1,85 ingame

dunno how big i am but 1,85 was the best before

now its 2m

[gleaming igloo]

Anyone else crashing every now and then? Crashed 3 times in the last hour with the last thing in my logs being an avatar loading

[oak pendant]

If an avatar load is causing you to crash, if you can figure out the avatar ID that would be helpful

[gleaming igloo]

Not one of my avatars, and uuuuh....

[mossy tendon]

it varies from model to model, but i've found when looking down with head lock my hips move a lot more than id expect
did test at my rl height, then up and down by 5 inches

also my neck is kind of weird on some models but i can probably adjust that by changing the neck bone position, ik must be trying to straighten it out to some certain position

im expecting some movement of hips, naturally, since they arent locked

[coral cairn]

So before the relationship was (head_to_hand_distance / .4537) + .005 = view_height, and the user height was basically assumed to be view height. If it's scaling differently now something about that equation has to change which means avatars need to change.

[solar cloud]

i just remembered i would also have to make a quest optimized version and a fallback version of my avatar too again with the hip fix. Now i want to die.

[gleaming igloo]

Not conviced this is a vrchat issue yet as I'm on windows 11 and have had pretty frequent crashes

[oak pendant]

Thanks, if you end up being able to find someone with an avatar that consistently crashes you that would be good to know. That could also be an issue with remote avatars using FinalIK scripts on them. Last time I tested that was local only

[oak pendant]

There's a bug right now with where the floor ends up, but yes that relationship has changed in the new IK

[coral cairn]

oh ok 👍. What's the new one if you don't mind my asking? I can get it down if it's concrete. Looks like I'll need to update some code.

[tawdry glen]

Accidentally exported with leaf bones?

[oak pendant]

I don't mind sharing because this is previously public info but because it's early in the beta the new relationship is very subject to change especially because it's hard to get proper feedback on scaling ratio with the floor bug confounding things (though people who shift with OVRAS have said it's good). Anyway, you can replace "head" with "neck" in your info and ".4537" with ".415"

[steady lantern]

using head lock, hip lock, both lock and re-calibrating each time I switched does not seem to improve or hurt the situation at all.

[coral cairn]

awesome, that's easy enough I can make a change to immersive scaler but I'll keep it in dev until it's more final and keep an eye on the scaling of my tests. There are other bugs to fix there anyway. It's definitely something you want feedback on and I got a lot of people asking me about making arms shorter with my plugin so 👍👍👍 on this change. I can already see that new constant will help a ton with lanky arms though so definitely a win in my book.

[oak pendant]

The only way to change that would be to increase your user real height setting beyond* IRL (but it's important feedback that you have too much arm pull) The current scaling targets just barely locking the avatar's elbows straight when you reach your arms to the side in an IRL t-pose. Whether or not there's more or less arm pull with the arms in other directions depends on shoulder bone length and shoulder position

However if your neck bone is high above the line drawn between your wrists in a t-pose scaling might not be exactly on target

if you provide a screenshot of your avatar in this world: https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2 I can judge the bones. But if you just post in here I might miss it, to make sure I see it, it has to be on canny

[oak pendant]

Great, yeah if it's successfully positioning the controllers and world scale such that IRL t-pose just barely locks the elbows when using IRL user real height, then the scaling is working correctly. (Though as mentioned before it appears that floor height isn't properly matching due to a bug)

[steady lantern]

this is the bone structure, will this screenshot suffice? or should I go to that world and take a screenshot too

[oak pendant]

Nah, this screenshot is perfect, thanks! Your neck bone is in the expected range. Do you get extreme arm pull when you do a t-pose to the sides IRL after binding? It looks like those screenshots are during calibration.

As you can see in the old IK the avatar arms are too long causing slack, so the goal is that there's no slack left in the arms during IRL t-pose, (but it's just on the threshold right after elbows locked, and if it's pulling far beyond that, that's important feedback)

Otherwise, if you're noticing that the arms pull tighter in general, that's intended. There's another factor to that too. Previously the torso would be pulled in the direction of the arms, so rather than over reach the torso would deflect. That doesn't happen any more so over reach might be more apparent

[steady lantern]

the screenshots are not during calibration, I opened the big menu to make the controllers show up.

In the new IK, the arms have minor arm pull (around an inch) in T-pose, and extreme arm pull (2~3 inches) with the arms extended forward.

[river wyvern]

@oak pendant about to post the the canny, thought I'd let you know twist bones for elbows and knee helping bones are causing undesirable results in many different base bodies. Constraints are also acting funky. This is in lock hip mode. Will record and upload a video too like the other one. Any other information that maybe useful to you that I should collect?

[oak pendant]

Ok, the forward extension depends on shoulder position, but in general most avatars will see more pull when reaching forward. I'm considering allowing the shoulders to reach further forward to combat this, but worried that it'll make weight painting the shoulder blades a lot harder when they can move forward more

[oak pendant]

screenshots of the unity setup of the constraints would be very useful

(I have twist bones on my arms and haven't seen an issue yet, so I'm not so sure it's all constraints)

so gotta narrow down what causes it

[river wyvern]

I'll ask the creators whose bases I was testing to forward me that information. When we tested it was also effected even when constraints werent active. We could only fix it by completely deleting the bone altogether. Is there a specific naming convention you are using with your twist bones?

Im thinking it might be a naming convention thing if thats the case

[oak pendant]

I doubt it would be naming, though I suppose it could be a "humanoid bone not first child in hierarchy" thing, though AFAIK first child or not should not affect the IK 2.0, in any case would be relevant info

[river wyvern]

I have tested a total of 6 bases now and about to test another but it was all the same thing that happened, their twist bones caused the leg to go inwards towards the other leg and twist, shoulder would twist weirdly and elbow would go like one of those spiral pastas

[steady lantern]

that will be great, and I think it'll make it look more natural too, since shoulders IRL do have some range of motion back and forth

[river wyvern]

but when testing the ones without twist bones it was working correctly

[river wyvern]

Yeah thats what I assumed too otherwise we would have noodle arms already

[oak pendant]

The new IK has more forward motion and a lot more upward motion (and less downward motion) than legacy IK, but if the feedback is that even more forward motion is wanted, I'll keep that in mind. (Though a canny post always helps in case I forget)

[steady lantern]

gotya, will edit my post on canny to mention this
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/vr-arms-becomes-much-shorter-in-new-ik-causing-extreme-arm-pull

[oak pendant]

If there's a public avatar ID that I can test on that has this issue, let me know too, that would help me to test fixes once I can narrow it down

[river wyvern]

One moment let me check with the base creators and see if I can get them to give me a public ID for you 🙂

I'll DM

[coral cairn]

ok immersive scaler has updated code (thanks kung!). I won't be able to test it in vrchat until Monday since I'm on a laptop but from an eyeball it's not completely off.

That said, if anybody wants to test it out on the new scaling, just dl the zip from master and rezip the imscale folder. I'm not going to make a release for this yet since it's likely to change, and avatars may need to be rescaled. https://github.com/triazo/immersive_scaler

[final moss]

God I love the IK

Tysm ily

[oak pendant]

And note that it may not align the floor until I can get to that separate bug floor height issue. Thanks for providing community tools!

[maiden rock]

being slightly lower in the floor is definitely something I noticed, and this was after I did an OVR fix floor before starting vrchat for good measure

after 6 hours of dancing though i'm quite happy with it

[burnt depot]

This beta is actually great

one issue

ill post screenshots

me in vr

me irl

that is the one issue I have

sorry for the messy room but tbh who cares lol

screenshots were taken at the same time

if yall are able to fix this it will be perfect

I stand like this to help my back

looks like a power stance but try it sometime :p

also I had to set my height to my actual irl height which is actually very appreciated

makes so much sense for new users

fix this issue and its perfect tbh

[full tusk]

So pc only testers

[burnt depot]

I do hope that someone sees this

may repost later cause I stand like this a majority of the time in fbt cause it is actually awesome for my bad back

Kung seems to be awake so maybe they will see it

[wooden lion]

so does anyone else get their necks craned forward a lot when they enable all (head + hip) locked mode?

[digital grove]

time to get the elbow trackers

[charred heath]

Will this come to quest too? I want to test if it works well on quest

[burnt depot]

if only

i got these in 2019 before i lost my job

🤣

its okay we do college now

shoutout to my parents

<3

[ionic heron]

Don't report issues here, report them to the canny! o:
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20

[charred heath]

Does ik 2.0 need a new kind of rig?

[ionic heron]

nope, same 'ol rig

[ionic heron]

This beta is only available on Steam for now, though it'd make sense for the new IK to come to Quest as well

[tiny token]

Cant dab anymore...

[burnt depot]

yes but can't is actually fucking awful

I will but literly why canny

😩

actual garbage

so much more effort

[strong nova]

Running on a Kat Walk C using 6-point looks a lot cleaner in the beta.

[digital grove]

say what

[ionic heron]

early in the morning brain = not functional

[tiny token]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/cant-dab

[raw wadi]

a

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/cant-dab

pretty funny one

[rocky forge]

Has anyone noticed they've gotten... shorter or something. Like, my scale seems different between the IK versions in the Beta. Pics in a moment.

Old -> New

Only thing I changed was IK type.

Gonna see if my actual height changes or if... I'm imagining the huge size difference.

[smoky relic]

there is definitely a scale difference but they've made this clear, idk if it's fov related or what but it's probably more accurate anyway

[rocky forge]

Gotcha, my apologies.

Well, I'm 6.4 so this means my life gets much more difficult. lol

[digital grove]

It's in the patch notes

[ionic heron]

Note this part of the patchnotes:
**IMPORTANT:** Adjusted "User Real Height" scaling method. **If you had previously set a height that differs from your actual real-life height, please enter your actual height before giving feedback on the scaling change.** If you prefer to adjust scaling you can enter any value in "User Real Height" but start from the baseline of your actual height

[rocky forge]

Ah, gotcha, that's an oversight on my part.

Appreciate the response. First time digging into a beta and I jumped the gun. lol

[ionic heron]

lmao you're fine!

[final raven]

Yeah, I wonder if this has anything to do with how my tracker balls for my feet now line up with the bottom of my avatars feet on beta IK whereas on Legacy, it matched up with the top of them. (for reference, I have my height set to my IRL)

And so I have to adjust my height in-game to get them to line back up properly again.

[rocky forge]

Probably. It's also probably why there's mentions of arms overextending more often.

Used to be fine at 6.4 real 6.5 settings.

Now to keep arms from overextending.... 7.0 roughly.

However, all changes are nice so far! My freaky proportions aside.

[burnt depot]

im still upset that i need to post om canny

:(

[final sphinx]

Yo did anyone request calibration lines yet at the canny? Cant find it and its a cool feature in chilloutvr

Also funny how tupper has an open fbt ik related canny https://feedback.vrchat.com/feature-requests/p/full-body-tracking-calibration-needs-work

[balmy gull]

Just tested it out and it works great for me! I tried using most of my avatars and public ones. The chest bone problem is also fixed when laying down on side

I really like how the hands are no longer "priority" of the body. For instance, if you put controllers on the floor and you stand up, your virtual hands will move up with your body so your body is no longer getting folded

I tested it with Quest 2, HTC Vive 3.0 Trackers

[empty solar]

Only thing that's weird for me while testing the new IK is that when forced locomotion is enabled the hands do not behave similarly to how the old ik system worked when my avatar moves

I will make a few tweaks to my rig for future versions of my avatars, but for now this is the thing I'm experiencing

[balmy gull]

I assume you are using custom locomotion so whoever made it has to update their locomotion in the future

[final moss]

One thing I have noticed is the chest ik causing clipping on some of my outfits now...

[empty solar]

Just Gogo Loco

Should be fine but it's like as though my hands being dragged

[balmy gull]

Ah I haven't used that before

[digital grove]

I saw this when locking both hip and head

When locking only one, it didn't happen

[final moss]

Precisely, my avatar works best that way as its mostly proportionate

[digital grove]

Overall the beta feels quite nice

[digital grove]

What the hell is gogo loco

[final moss]

A prefab for animations

[digital grove]

[kind tartan]

For those of you with old VIVE wands, who could use an extra two points of tracking for knees or elbows, I wrote up a quick tutorial how to convert them so SteamVR (and VRChat) treat them as trackers.

https://ask.vrchat.com/t/how-to-convert-those-dusty-old-vive-wands-into-trackers/8823

Note that your headset can only connect to two controllers... since you're converting VIVE Wands and presumably have two index controllers, that's two more than your headset can connect to directly. So.... SteamVR wireless receiver dongles are $30-40 each. yeah like those stupid bluetooth things that come with your wireless mouse. For some reason the ones compatible with SteamVR are in short supply and so that's how much they cost everywhere.. So using converted controllers might still cost you $60-80 for both controllers.

[final sphinx]

how do you not know gogoloco

its THE most common prefab for custom animator layers in vrc ever

i also run a heavily modded version, you can grtab yours from the vrc prefabs database, it's by franada, a guy that has a lot of experience in vrcs avatar3 and unity content

[ionic musk]

Does the new IK update fix this bug?
https://feedback.vrchat.com/avatar-30/p/bugbuild-1004-avatars-30-emotes-on-index-do-not-have-root-transform-applied-prop

[harsh lagoon]

pretty sure its relatively new and not popular in the general consumer space

especially people who dont make or edit avatars

sure in terms of locomotion layers its popular but i'll bet 90% of players dont know how those even work

[final sphinx]

Its a year old

And like every 5th public avatar uses it

And ye players dont

They just see, use and like its features like "fake playspacemover"

[crisp bronze]

with the legacy toggle enabled is old ik movement networked

[river wyvern]

I use locomotion fix from wetcats crew I much prefer that one

I just finished making a measuring guide as well for those wanting to use 10 point. Dunno where to post it though as its a visual guide

[drifting steeple]

IK 2.0

[lean badger]

hmm... I instantly miss torso leaning (I have a lot of short-armed avatars). This is the one thing I feel that the old VRC IK, despite its faults, got right compared with other VRSNS applications. I do not like the sensation of my hands disconnecting from my avatars'. It "feels" odd.

Could Torso leaning be an option for the new IK? That or automatic rescaling of arm length.

Meanwhile I am easily fooled into believing that I am rotating my torso a little despite not actually doing so IRL

[tame pewter]

those little rusk and mint avatars are using my edit of wetcats loco fix with gogoloco stuff dropped on top

[final sphinx]

yup

[devout current]

I made a canny about the issue I had with the rotated / moved back chest:
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/chest-bone-gets-moved-back-when-its-not-directly-above-spine

I'll will also make one about the issue with the fliped hip bone

[robust garden]

I've been playing with the IK Beta and the experience has been really good! Elbow inversions are quite hard to do now on my specific avatars. Much better calibration and tracking performance on (intentionally) malformed/outlandish armatures. The drift lock for head+hip feature has been really great for keeping the viewpoint out of my chest when laying down and during yoga. Great work overall!

[final sphinx]

yeah, the viewball not staying in the frikken head was my main problem tbh

[lean badger]

Arm pull issues aside I am indeed pleasantly surprised that some of my avatars with stranger armatures seems to work just fine. And in general move more naturally.

[devout current]

hm idk I have a few issues with my Avatars sadly

like, this is how it should look

and this is how it looks

[solar cloud]

Did you already fix that upside down hip bone?

[devout current]

nope I haven't I don't really know how to my self (never really did anything with blender) even if I would a lot of people would still have issues. There are still a lot of Avatars that have a flipped hip and not everyone knows how to fix it.

Supporting a flipped hip is essential.

[solar cloud]

#3d-modeling zuvali showed me how

Fixed all issues related to new IK

[devout current]

idk Rezillo him self (dude who mad the rexouim) has never gotten FBT working on his avatars without using a flipped hip

[solar cloud]

My avatar with not upside down hip bone now works totally fine on either lock mode

Mmh

[devout current]

idk the point that a tone of avatars still use a inverted hip

[solar cloud]

Probably wouldn't hurt to still try it

[devout current]

and telling everyone to just revert this isn't really the solution tbh

[solar cloud]

Just make a copy and try it there

So it doesn't touch your main avatar

[devout current]

yeah ik might try it, but as I said, a lot of other people will still have this issue

[solar cloud]

I know it's unfortunate

[devout current]

so it should still be considered to implement support for it

[solar cloud]

I shared my fixed fbx already in Hobberts community

[oak crow]

the slouching when sitting bothers me a bit, I do think the hip/foot positioning is like half a foot to a foot below as to what it used to be

regardless of avatar, too

in some avatars, it works to your advantage since the feet and hips were a little bit above where they were "supposed" to be, but in others, it... doesn't 😂

BUT, I also noticed that some avatars that used to not work at all now work!

[small isle]

You have to toy with your height (in game) to fix this. Like a lot, depending of the avi.

I think ideally you want both the head and hip locked

One thing extremely funny I noticed. If you go from 8 point tracking back to 6 point after you messed with the settings and accidently sit in a chair you and everyone around you sees you turn into a giant?

Messing with it again and you turn smol but you don't see it and everyone else sees you smol

Tried messing with it a lot to replicate it but I couldn't figure it out consistently. Someone with 3 point managed to get it to work too once.

[lean badger]

Might it have to do with scaling of your avatar? I've had issues before in some chairs with some avatars where they return to their size as they come from the .fbx

[small isle]

did it with two different avatars. That one in the picture is a public avi. The other one is one I made that is already pretty smol. It goes to like a set hight when it bugs out (big or smol) almost like when someone is seeing one of the fallback avatars.

Putting on my conspiracy hat: Possibly will we see the ability to scale our avatars in game in the future? 🤔

[oak crow]

I've never played around with height scaling because I didn't have to, so if an upgrade "forces" you to it's not much of an upgrade 😂

[small isle]

I can only assume you're a blender/unity perfectionist then lmao

[oak crow]

well you see, the avatars I fixed to work perfectly now are completely messed up

because the hip/feet are now, as I said, half a feet to a foot below the spot they used to be

I wonder if this is caused by arm length or legs being too short now or what

or is the torso too short

no way of knowing

the scaling was as close to perfect as I could get it to my body's proportions and now it's broken as fugg

[small isle]

are you using 6 point? Or higher?

[oak crow]

6 point

[small isle]

if youve never messed with the scaling before in game I'm willing to bet money that will fix your issue.

I get what you mean though, not much of an upgrade adding an extra step.

[oak crow]

having to mess with the scaling sucks though

and having to mess with it differently for every avatar sucks even more

[small isle]

What do you mean lmao, it's easier that opening up blender or unity, you just do it in game

[oak crow]

messing with the scaling always made avatars feel completely wrong, too, like either too small or too big

[robust tangle]

There is no ideal setting, all three have downsides that’s why all three were included. If your avatar is perfectly sized to your specific body proportions it is safe to lock both but you will still get occasional odd neck rotations

[oak crow]

the avatars perfectly fixed to my body proportions are COMPLETELY HUNCHED now lol

because the hip/foot positioning broke

[small isle]

oh you must be speaking of no neck Quasimodo style

[oak crow]

literal calibration taking place underground

[robust tangle]

Which lock mode are you using

[oak crow]

if I lock both, that happens

[robust tangle]

Yes that is the downside of locking both

[oak crow]

if I lock just one, it's generally okay, but the perfectly proportioned avatar? it's big oof

in legacy, when I touched the soles of my feet

I touched the soles of my avatar's feet

now I touch air

[robust tangle]

If you lock both and get super hunched it just means your avatar is not matched to your body proportions as well as you think it is

[oak crow]

half a foot away from the foot

I wonder if I have to scale the avatar to my actual height now too lol

for it to work

[robust tangle]

If you are lock head only and you switch to lock hip only and your head shifts a ton, Your torso size is off

[tardy ibex]

Try turning on the legacy full body tracking in the quick menu

[robust tangle]

Personally lock head only is my favorite setting

Because it acts like three point with legs

[oak crow]

in legacy, I could touch my knee, and then touch my foot, and it was 1:1. hip, just right, shoulders, perfect. but with the new, it's all different

but now, 2 avatars that I haven't done anything to work essentially perfectly

[small isle]

I feel like when it comes down to realize, the legacy will still be available.

[oak crow]

one has small hunching issues when I lock both

the other has none

[robust tangle]

Lock both is going to have weird spine issues, the tooltips above the settings say that ahead of time

You can’t lock two bones on a chain without slack/tension

[oak crow]

locking just one also causes funny hunching in some avatars

but the avatars I got to match me perfectly in legacy no longer match me at all 😂

[robust tangle]

It just means they didn’t match you as perfectly as you thought

Sit down in full body and switch between hip only and head only and see if your head is shifting up and down😉

[oak crow]

I have my doubts about that, every avatar I have has had their hips and feet go a full half foot/foot off their earlier locations

it feels like it's more an armature sizing issue

[robust tangle]

This is the ultimate test and will objectively show you

[oak crow]

yeah, it happens because the feet and hips are now misaligned

in a completely new way

[robust tangle]

That means your real world height is probably wrong

[oak crow]

but... the height I have ingame is as close as possible to my RL height as possible, and has always been

[robust tangle]

Interesting

[oak crow]

I've never played around with height in VRC

[robust tangle]

I had to always set my height 4 inches shorter than I really was until this update now the correct setting is my correct light

[oak crow]

I've always set it as close to my actual height in VRC as possible

[tardy ibex]

It maybe steamvr you may have to reset it up

[robust tangle]

If you have an leg length that is much different compared to your height than as is average, you may have to tweak your in game height a little

[oak crow]

thing is, this avatar that's now broken

I literally measured the length of my feet, lower leg, upper leg, hip, torso, neck, arms

and scaled the avatar as close as possible to that

and it worked perfectly in legacy

now, not anymore 😂

[meager sand]

leg ik and height is completely screwed for my avatar on the new ik beta, because the legs use a custom digitigrade ik setup, and now they're way shorter than they used to be and don't calibrate right 💀

[winter iron]

I have this issue on some of my models with the elbows pushing back when I have my hands on my hips but no leg issues at all. (Using six point tracking)

[oak crow]

the way it feels now is that VRC uses its own default model proportions instead of your own

[robust tangle]

My experience: before, I had to say I was 4 inches shorter than I really was to make everything work

Now: correct height gives best settings, but calibration puts my avatars shoes underground. After calibrating and moving playspace down to unbury my feet, everything is perfect. But ovr was never needed before

[coral cairn]

There's also at actual floor height bug apparently.

[meager sand]

this is what i get for making an avatar with systems that'll potentially break from an update

[coral cairn]

Vrc has always used its own scaling method that you have limited control over. It's now a slightly different one.

[oak crow]

oh, sure, but your own proportions still worked okay

now, I'm questioning that

[coral cairn]

Not for everybody, I've talked enough to plenty who could 'never get the arms short enough'

[oak crow]

avatars that use some sort of default size stuff work better than things I tweaked

[robust tangle]

Yeah the only thing I think is wrong with the new set up is where it adjusts the playspace translation after the scaling. I think some people are trying to fix that by messing with real world height which is not what you want to do

[rancid glen]

I would Murder (4) to get legacy-like full body tracking-like lower body movement animations in 3 point tracking, i envy full body users because their running animation looks so much more accurate and cooler to the actual animation it is supposed to be based on, i'd like an option to force this lower body movement for 3 point tracking

[oak crow]

also Adeon, sounds like what fixed things for you is what broke them for me, the lowered foot/hip calibration 😂

[lean badger]

Now all my arms feel too short instead 🤣

[tardy ibex]

Try going out of the open beta and see what it does to your avatars

[coral cairn]

Oh definitely. User height is the only other tweak you have for world scale but it also affects things like viewport height so I don't like messing with it. OVRAS shouldn't be needed.

[coral cairn]

Seems like their open to changing the scaling value again if enough people say that.

[rancid glen]

apart from a very few minor instances and the almost completely absent shoulder rotations now (which could further improve arm accuracy and improve chest clipping prevention even further) its a massive improvement, the motion looks a lot more natural

[robust tangle]

That’s the key, I don’t think it’s world scale that is broken it’s just play space translation after the scaling, which real world user height fixes by scaling it incorrectly. Only true work around is playspace offset in ovr

[lean badger]

I wish for torso leaning to come back, since it's a pretty elegant fix for short-armed avatars IMO. You don't really notice that the avatar is leaning its torso while you IRL aren't.

[rancid glen]

Also that, i had to raise my real user height to insane 6 foot 5 to get something that feels comfortable now (world scaling wise) and then had to counter the downwards push via OVR

with the new scaling my real world height everything just feels super tiny

[loud patio]

I believe this means your avatar isn't scaled correctly

[rancid glen]

my avatar is scaled pretty much exactly to my real world height

[robust tangle]

Yeah something is definitely off with your armature that doesn’t sound right at all

[robust tangle]

Can you post a picture of your armature

[rancid glen]

its independent of avatar

[robust tangle]

Which headset do you have

And when you say you need to set world scale insanely high to feel right what do you mean by feel right what are you trying to make work

[rancid glen]

sec

like i said, the world is scaled down so much everything looks really small in comparison to legacy scaling

[robust tangle]

That’s not what you should be concerned about

[rancid glen]

also basically my entire body doesnt match up at all

[robust tangle]

When you set it to your actual true real world hide that should be the setting that causes your arm length to not overreach or under reach

[rancid glen]

it always does

because my avatars arms are not exactly as long as they are in real life, i was going to fix that

but everything else doesnt match either

i'm either floating or when i put my controllers on the ground i'm at my shins rather than the floor

[robust tangle]

Avatars with much longer arms than real life is going to have the world scale be tiny that’s just how VR chat works that’s how it is supposed to work

[rancid glen]

but my arms are shorter

not longer

[robust tangle]

I guess what would be ideal is a toggle between world scale being based on wingspan and world scale being based on height

[rancid glen]

or a completely separate world scale option

i mean thats what user real height was supposed to be isn't it?

it just fancy named

if that armature is broken, then basically almost any common armature is broken

this is the straight up stock Wickerbeast armature

and pretty much all furry avatars have the same/similar armature

except the ONA kobold

that one is horribly broken but it was in legacy and still is

i just want the original scaling back, the rest is just nice to have so far

but i'll have to write some proper bugreports/feature requests when i'm not running on fumes and about to go to bed... i'm dead at this point

[robust tangle]

They included the original scaling method in settings

[drifting steeple]

I just note the viewpoint still drift a bit but it's very small ( in comparison of before it's a major improvement )

[thorn osprey]

hol up

How many more trackers should I buy

Tbh I just want a chest tracker

And elbow

[oak crow]

there's no chest tracking for now

it's head, hip, feet, knees, hands and elbows

[thorn osprey]

Chest is neeeeeded

man

chest is like

The only one needed

And elbow

[spark junco]

Head, shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes.

[oak crow]

need to be able to shrug with just your shoulders huhu

so chest and shoulder trackers

[strong nova]

I came into work tired because I was testing the IK beta and staying up late last night. One of my younger bosses just told me he uses VRChat, and I was telling him why I was yawning and still sleepy. He's going to try out the beta later. 👀

[oak crow]

a horrible mistake

[strong nova]

Yeah, I think so. Maybe.

[oak crow]

I hope you didn't tell him the name you use on VRC at least

[strong nova]

The more feedback VRChat has, the better.

[spark junco]

Imagine playing VRC with your boss.

[strong nova]

It's easy to figure out.

[oak crow]

... oh no

[strong nova]

[solar cloud]

I guess most people will probably use hip locking still, especially people only using public avatars cause of the thing with upside down hip bone

[final raven]

I’ve primarily used “lock all” for the most part unless the avatar I’m using has a particularly hunched forward look~

It’s nice we’ve got options to choose from ^^

Kung out here really thinking of just about every possible scenario :v

[thorn osprey]

Imagine living in VRC

Like

Full consciousness

[solar cloud]

Same

Had to set real world height higher to fix

My real world scaling is pretty much now set to 6,5 foot

Before it was 6,0

Without fbt

Don't have that

[final sphinx]

Chest isnt currently supported

Who knows it will be when this goes live

[coral cairn]

Oh yeah how big should the hip bone be now?

[final sphinx]

Kinda sad clientusers can still "flex" with their chest tracker support lol

[empty solar]

I honestly want a way to take a screenshot of my model calibrating or show my trackers+controllers so I can find out what I would need to tweak to adjust for the new IK system

Or at least a sample rig may help

[minor rampart]

I wouldn’t go overboard on adjustments yet.

Until bugs are fixed.

[coral cairn]

mhm there's a floor height bug which will make things confusing, and the main scaling constant is subject to change.

Come Monday I'll have immersive scaler tested/debugged so resizing in blender shouldn't be a manual process.

[tiny perch]

I use 1 chest tracker and 2 foot trackers only

The user real hight is much better now

[loud patio]

They can also get banned for having said chest tracker

[final sphinx]

well ye but id rather have the feature too

[loud patio]

Chest trackers are kinda useless though IMO

If you have elbow tracking, your chest can be predicted almost 1:1

[final sphinx]

I dont really care that they still use their shit, the ik2 update already fixes enough for myself but the chest tracker thing makes me jelly

[final sphinx]

I need to try myself in a day

[rustic berry]

nah, not the same

can absolutely tell the difference

[tiny perch]

Yep

[loud patio]

Yikes

[rustic berry]

and if I could do shoulder tracking too, I would

[loud patio]

Just do mocap at that point

[rustic berry]

I do want to actually lol

I have the trackers to do it

[whole glacier]

Not nesaserally: 🙂 Chest tracker Feedback thread: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/chest-trackers

[whole glacier]

Not only are they still useful.

But IMO it’s extremely noticeable.

At least from first person.

[leaden pike]

whats ost?

[tiny perch]

At least on my main avatar is very useful 👌

[leaden pike]

how does OST work?

[clever thicket]

https://hello.vrchat.com/blog/vrchat-osc-for-avatars

[silk crow]

Is the new IK beter for really tall people? Im around 6"5 6"6 and i always have to set the user hight to something way lower to fit my feet

[minor rampart]

This.

If you have good enough IK, having a chest tracker is not really necessary.

you can get a really accurate estimation with the elbows+hands+waist.

[clever thicket]

yeah i really dont see the point of a chest tracker unless youre like, a really intense dancer

[minor rampart]

betting this is why they're not supporting it, too.

[loud patio]

Super agree

[minor rampart]

right now it's not going to be perfect---but I'm willing to bet, by the end of this beta, with IK adjustments and various fixes, the gap between having a chest tracker and not having one will be fairly thin.

[whole glacier]

A chest charger is still borderline necessary.

[whole glacier]

You can’t really.

[loud patio]

Borderline wrong

[whole glacier]

lol ok.

[minor rampart]

There's limits to trackability of things---there has to be a line somewhere to draw.

Having trackers on the shoulders would enhance things---having trackers on the wrist would enhance things.

Eventually you hit diminishing marginal returns and it's not really worth it to implement.

with the elbows, waist, and head, and good IK, you shoudl be able to get fairly accurate estimation of what the chest is doing.

[silver geyser]

especially when you're asking like several hundred more bucks for marginal Improvement

[minor rampart]

it's early on though, so I wouldn't expect perfection yet

[rustic berry]

I would at least like the option to be there though, even though most people won't use it

the majority of VRC players don't use full body, does that mean we should just forget about FBT? of course not. I realize that the amount of people who are going to be using chest trackers is comparatively small, but it's far from 0. it's better to implement this now while they are currently working on the IK, than later when they've moved on to work on other features

and Fox, I totally understand your point with the "where do you draw the line". things like shoulders is definitely not as practical as elbows, and I don't actually expect that to be implemented. but again, would be nice, especially since I already have the trackers to do it, and I know I'm not the only one

[whole glacier]

"diminishing marginal returns" happens after chest tracking. 🙂

[rustic berry]

I agree

[minor rampart]

that's not really for any of us to decide.

[rustic berry]

11 point is really the most that any sane person should use

it's the max supported in all the other VR social games

[whole glacier]

Imo chest tracking > knee tracking

😏

lol

[digital grove]

Why do you keep shitting on chest tracker just because you don't care for it doesn't mean it doesn't do anything

[minor rampart]

that's...a gross exaggeration of what I've been saying.

[whole glacier]

No. It's not.

[zenith glacier]

i personally dont need them as well, but if people want them, now its the best chance to tell vrchat to potentially implement them, so its good to have a talk about that tbh

anyway, anyone know what the feet tracker get appointed to? the beginning of the foot or the end of the foot bone?

[minor rampart]

there's a huge gap between "this probably isn't necessary with good design and estimation vs what it can actually do"

and "chest tracking is stupid and I hate it"

[zenith glacier]

could be kinda cool to have an option to choose between them, since i know a lot of people who have "feet trackers" on their ankles, while a lot others have them on their feet

[whole glacier]

Imagine thinking thang have to be literal.

Things can be implied.

[coral cairn]

What are you all mounting to your elbows and knees with? Just trackstraps?

[empty solar]

testing a new rig configuration, so yeah small shoulder bones should be a thing in the past, as the IK now fixes the shoulder sag problem

[prisma meadow]

I use normal trackstraps for my elbows and xl's for my knees

[rustic zodiac]

Using all 7 seems the shoulders still do not stretch at all

but, they mentioned you can change the settings for head or hip enforcement

But I cant find where

[undone plinth]

just had a total desync

everyone else saw me in a mixture of poses. T, A, in the ground, in a weird pose.

I was clean locally

Got video from local and remote

Disabling/enabling FBT didn't fix it, swapping avatars to another humanoid didn't unjam it, but swapping to a generic and back fixede it

[tranquil cipher]

it's stations

you can't have too many on one avatar

[undone plinth]

Don't have any stations on this avatar when it happened but I was previously in one with a few stations

[tranquil cipher]

yes, it will stay broken

[undone plinth]

All right. Sounds like that's tracked then.

And the answer is as usual, stations 🙃

[carmine gate]

I found that calibrating elbows with Kinect is very peculiar, you have to do the t-pose very quickly and immediatly calibrate, or else the elbows have mirrored movement. interestingly, if you calibrate correctly (by going fast) then you can hold a t-pose as long as you want without anything breaking. I'll look into there being anything on our side, but I found that really weird.

[spark junco]

Are you the same Aurora who I see in the Pug all the time?

[vital inlet]

hey so im using 8 point tracking which is working great but my avatar has its locomotion turned on when it didnt before (And yes force locomotion is turned off in unity). Do i need the latest SDK or is this an actual bug?

[tulip acorn]

Anyone seen some issues with syncing on beta?

[terse kestrel]

Double-check in Unity and if its off (but you're still getting locomotion) please submit/contribute to the feedback board

[tulip acorn]

I got some reports that either synced variable or just broadcast events ( to all) do not work 🤔

[solar cloud]

The thing with overreach and needing to set real height higher to mitigate: what is exactly the canny post from that? I can't really figure it out but want to upvote

[robust tangle]

Gear menu. The category was minimized for me.

[wintry totem]

Will legacy IK be permanently kept in as something to switch to? I find that even though I use my real height, my tracking balls for the feet are half way in the floor, and going on my tip toes makes my avatars toes go under the ground, doesn't happen with legacy (1.0) IK :/

[tranquil cipher]

the whole point of the beta is so you can give feedback and make it into something that you don't want to just revert :)

but that being said - https://twitter.com/Kung_VR/status/1497469245374234627

Kung (@Kung_VR)

@revengerer @VRChat "Always" is pretty strong phrasing. But I can say that currently there are no plans to remove it.

Twitter · Feb 26, 2022, 7:11 AM

[wintry totem]

Other than the foot in the floor thing, it works fine, so if it was ever forced and legacy IK was to be removed then I could put up with it sure lol

[maiden rock]

This. Using XLs for mounting knee trackers above the knee, but would like to see some more secure "knee brace" style mounting options in the future, as it suffers rotation issues, and slight slippage

[tranquil cipher]

either way, that particular issue is already known and will be fixed before release

[tranquil cipher]

https://twitter.com/theVeronicaJae/status/1495219621833560066 🤣

[coral cairn]

I wonder if I can rig a mount to my knee guards for skating, they're stiff foam and pretty comfy.

Does the ik expect it to be above, below, or on the knee?

[maiden rock]

oh no 😂

[wintry totem]

That's good, thanks for finding that Tweet and responding :D

[maiden rock]

inspired though

[maiden rock]

I wouldn't be surprised if dancers put a 1/4" thread on knee pads

for floor work

[oak crow]

torso compressing when standing with both locks means it's too long right?

if it was too short it'd be stretching, right?

[clever thicket]

lock all makes me look like a hunchback xD

[oak crow]

I'm facing a strange combination of my hands no longer landing where they should on the avatar's torso, but the torso also taking a quasimodo-like posture lol

[minor rampart]

yeah, unless you have really good posture, hanging your head even a little makes you look like you just got up and haven't had our coffee

[rustic zodiac]

Not sure if its a bug, but shoulder movement does not stretch if using elbows, only on full arm stretch

[oak crow]

I doubt it's a posture issue, it's an avatar's ability to match you issue

if the torso is considerably longer than yours, the greater the effect

so far that's what I've noted from trying a bunch of different avatars, the longer the back, the worse it hunches trying to contort to my back

but what's weird is, why is the hip tracker so much lower than before, but the back contorts as if it's too long anyway

the hip tracker position makes me think the back is too short, but the back contortion makes me think otherwise

[minor rampart]

yup

[oak crow]

on some avatars, the head actually moves slightly down and back when locking lol

to both

avatars b wack

but locking to just hip leaves the view point to a perfect spot too

... view point issue?

what's the perfect spot for the view point in the new IK? 😂

[solar cloud]

I wish i could also test fbt stuff but most i can do is 3pt

I always have to bug other people to test stuff

[oak crow]

yeah view point issue is what it feels like

[kindred acorn]

so I've looked a lot more into the issue I described yesterday, where I cannot cross my arms - it is avatar specific, entirely. I just cannot figure out why. It only happens on this very avatar, the elbows get pushed away from the chest or spine bone from too far away. How is the "size" of the chest area to avoid calculated? Anything else I might need to fix on my armature? I can send more screenshots of vrc and blender/unity if it helps debug this. Also doesn't happen in legacy IK, obviously.

[timber grove]

What this

[oak crow]

I've also started to notice that some of my avatars have BUILT IN SLOUCH lol

I never noticed it before 😂

the neck is in an angle, and the upper body is in a slouchy angle too

seeing the back do all those awful things is starting to make my own back hurt lol

[acoustic python]

Video Summary: Im 190cm tall, when i use that height my hands are way beyond avatar length. When i change the height to 206 cm its pretty good, but i need to use placespacemover to correct it.

It would be cool if your Avatar wouldnt die when you get too close to a collider (e.g grabbing over a table, taking picture close to a wall)

Elbows seem to always be kinda far away from torso, would be nice to have a way to keep them out of the torso, but still close to it

Overall its good tho, chest doing weird things in a lot of scenarios is fixed really good, keep it up 👍

damn why no preview embedded D:

[oak crow]

the shoulders being completely stiff is a bit funny though

it feels like if they were a bit less stiff, the hands would reach where my hands are reaching (since, surprise, my shoulders aren't that stiff and let my arms move just that small bit further 😂)

[magic wigeon]

your file mp4 to mp3 look like there no Video

look like this

[marsh elm]

your player is broken

[magic wigeon]

no?

[marsh elm]

yes? the video works for me

[magic wigeon]

this got error

[marsh elm]

i.e. your player is broken

[magic wigeon]

i test few

still same

[marsh elm]

its an HVEC video, so your player might not have support for it

[old mulch]

discord only supports 264

make sure to change your davinci resolve settings 😉

[misty frost]

Would be nice to add chest tracker support

[old mulch]

upvote on canny

[old mulch]

to un derail this

[solar cloud]

i just get prompted to buy

https://i.imgur.com/FnkcxsK.png

@acoustic python change your codec or something, people cant play it

[carmine gate]

There used to be a free alternative called "HEVC Video Extensions from Device Manufacturer"

but it was taken off the MS Store after people started abusing it

TLDR, dont use HEVC

[robust magnet]

Or just install vlc/mpv and it works completely fine

[raw wadi]

From some rapid testing. To not get hunch when sitting. Your hip tracker need to be placed more toward the crotch. So it will rotate back when sitting, relaxing the neck.

If you hunch while standing. You can actually hunch a little when calibrating.

[river wyvern]

@acoustic python it’s important to note that models need to be fitted to you. I posted this to twitter this morning. From testing all day yesterday in multiple different models what I’ve found is you have to have lengths correctly done to your proportions to get the best results.

[marsh elm]

hmm

trackers gotta be above the joint?

[river wyvern]

It’s best practice because otherwise your doubling up on tracker points

[grave seal]

Is there any info on what a "good rig" should look like, maybe a couple images?
Because with the new IK, it changes a lot of the measurement

[robust tangle]

Yes tracters tell where your bones are not where your joints are. The new tracker points are technically upper leg and upper arm.

[ancient geode]

in general matching it as close to your irl perportions is best

[grave seal]

Will give that a go, but what about bone positions, since I know theres issues with the spine not being vertical

[wary knot]

what is the official VRChat Recommended View Position Location™ for the best ik?

[robust tangle]

The position that Makes your avatar shoulders lineup with your real shoulders

Place hand on your real shoulder to see how accurate it is

[marsh elm]

there is an image pinned at #avatar-rigging w/ an example of good bone rigging

[tawdry glen]

Oh my God LOL

[raw wadi]

Because the hip need to be set to animation in FBT. But the default animation have the hips a little back when running. Before the hand was dragging the chest forward. But now since the hands can't over reach, they drag a little behind. I was planning to Conter animate it to fix the hunch in FBT but a lack the time the past few weeks. But now it seen a necessity.

[marsh elm]

shoulda said "BARK"

to see his reaction

[tawdry glen]

That was a missed opportunity to troll him lol.

[marsh elm]

we do a small amount of tomfoolery

shit i gotta rething my strapping strategy if i gotta put my business above my knee

i use wands as trackers and my socks only go so far 😂

[robust tangle]

I love the head locked FBIK

so glad there's options

[hazy sleet]

I how looking down shoves my body back with head lock

[clever thicket]

https://i.imgur.com/cpDJsk8.png

[oak pendant]

Please post feedback on that here: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/in-lock-head-mode-hip-position-can-drift-insanely-far-from-hip-tracker

[real bane]

So I tested my personal avatars and it is mostly all good as I made damn sure my avatars are perfect on me. I notice my trackers are lower on the new IK. Is this normal?

the feet trackers

[coral cairn]

afaik a) there's a floor bug so the floor will be a bit too high, and seperately b) world scaling was changed so your arms will feel slightly shorter, and your Avatars feet will be slightly higher.

[oak crow]

but... most avatars I've used, the feet are lower than where they used to be

or are on legacy

I'd say the biggest cause of arms feeling shorter comes from the shoulders/chest not budging one inch, too

it's harder to head pat two people at once now, what a bummer

[coral cairn]

So like your foot trackers are higher on your Avatars legs then they used to be?

[oak crow]

no no, my foot trackers are sinking into the ground now

[coral cairn]

ok yeah that's what I mean by your Avatars feet being higher. Higher in a real word space.

[oak crow]

ah, right

it's not just the feet, too, the hip does the same

feels weird

as a result, avatars that used to not work very well work PERFECTLY now, while avatars that used to work perfectly are now really messy

[coral cairn]

mhm. World scale has changed and your viewpoint is the only fixed point.

Yeah I had a blender script to get the scale perfect before and now I need to adjust it and run it again for all my avatars

[oak crow]

but if there's a floor bug, it might be a good idea to wait until it's fixed lol

or you'll fix it for the bugged state and then you'll have to fix it again

[coral cairn]

Yeah. I'll be watching closely and only do a test avatar (or two).

[oak crow]

the funniest thing

the avatar that I found to work the absolute best for me with IK2.0

was Rawra, of all avatars I own 😂

this one right here https://booth.pm/en/items/3166554

so I guess I'm a child now

[coral cairn]

Overall it's probably good, since the vast majority of public Avatars I've seen would match the new scaling better.

Ofc matching Avatars shouldn't really be the goal it's matching how people move.

Of course I'll withold final judgment until I can actually try it in person

[oak crow]

then I also noticed that some avatars I own have built-in slouch and... it's not great

[coral cairn]

Full body? What pinning?

[oak crow]

any pinning, the back just slouches by default

for most avatars, there's no slouching when I pin it to the hip

then I pin it to the head, no slouching, but I don't really like that for most avatars

pinning to hip + head, CRUNCH

[coral cairn]

I guess that's why you have the options

[oak crow]

I can't see why the crunch would happen if it didn't mean that the torso is too long

[coral cairn]

I should add a parameter to my script to adjust torso portions

Anybody know what's anotomically normal?

[oak crow]

there's a weird combination there with the torso, on one hand, the torso crunches to be smaller

[coral cairn]

For legs I had to get measuring tape and measure my own.

But it completely solved a lot of knee placement issues

[oak crow]

BUT, it feels like my hands, as I point at parts of my torso, are wrong in a way that'd feel like the torso is too short?!

it's so weird

oh, I did a lot of measuring and fixed one avatar for legacy IK, and it was perfect

now with the new IK, it's... well, the floor issue probably causing issues

my feet used to be 1:1 matching the avatar's feet

now my feet are below the avatar's feet

[coral cairn]

I'm pretty sure ik was not human perfect. It wanted the arms to be like 3-5 percent too long.

And if your goal is matching the floor measuring your body will get you close but never all the way unless you play with it after (or just dwbi and use immersive scaler ;) )

[oak crow]

oh, with the old IK, wing span was used for height stuff, so you had to either make the legs really stubby, or lengthen the arms

[coral cairn]

Yeah. Still is but the ratio is different.

[oak crow]

I'll wait until the floor bug is fixed (or confirmed to not be a thing at least?) to see how much I need to fix the avatar's arms

[coral cairn]

Yeah. The new ratio is also subject to change.

[tawdry glen]

Multiple people have reported the floor bug, so I'm convinced it's actually a bug.

[oak crow]

yeah I buy it, everything's going so much lower

for no obvious reason

[coral cairn]

So was Kung so I'll believe it

[tawdry glen]

Some people are having to use playspace movers to fix it, so yeah, it's most likely a bug.

[oak crow]

I doubt my torso and legs just grow longer when I use the new IK lol

[coral cairn]

tbf using playspace to fix Avatars has always been a thing and not having to do that is one of the goals behind the scale change (I assume)

[oak crow]

I made a point to never use anything to fix avatars, most of them worked okay as is

or with some work

as in, in-VRChat

outside of it, sure

I never used fake height or playspace movers

[coral cairn]

I'm telling ya, immersive scaler, gets it right every time (and if it's not perfect please let me know that's a bug)

[oak crow]

wrong height always made avatars either feel too big or too small, and I didn't like that at all

[coral cairn]

Hm, so in some sense the new scaling should be like moving your height down a bit.

[oak crow]

I guess it helps I don't use avatars with stilty legs caused by too short arms and too long legs a whole lot lol

[tulip vale]

let me think

[coral cairn]

Most of my bases had legs that were like a foot too long out of the box

[oak crow]

most of the avatars ... I've bought on Booth are fairly close to my proportions

feet are, at worst, in the ankles

hip is usually at hip

although now, hip tends to be just below the spot it should be with the new IK

when before it was exactly at the right spot

it's the same with essentially all avatars, too, my hip is lower than it used to be

[coral cairn]

So fairly close to vrchat's golden ratio? It's for better or worse not really a personal thing. But my theory is that longer legs and shorter arms are perceived to be better looking (at least for female models) so it's always been a battle of fighting to make the legs as long as possible without affecting the scaling too much, and the arms as short as possible without them affecting the scaling too much.

Now torso length... There's some play there.

[serene ermine]

The arms are also less long. My avatars which were perfect are now too short on terms of hands. This is without user height changes.

Overall it works better tho, but some of my avatars gonna need some changes

[oak crow]

that's in part because the chest no longer gives an inch lol

so now it's just pure arm length, no shoulder/chest movement

[serene ermine]

My elbow and knee trackers work really well tho, the vrchat team did a good job.

[oak crow]

... seeing the back crunch has made my actual back hurt a little lol

but yes, the arms definitely feel shorter, but as pager said it's due to changes to how things are calculated

feels like now it doesn't matter if the arms are too long for that, too.

or maybe the "too long" feeling arms were actually too short

[wet gorge]

Gonna post this on the Canny, but I'm having issues with my custom Base layer. I toggle Tracking Control to allow myself to have both locomotion and no locomotion animations with "Force Locomotion animations for 6 point tracking" unchecked.

Now the problem lies that if I set Hip to Animation it seems to act like It's setting the head to animation as well.

Legacy Mode

IK 2.0

[oak crow]

you're literally bobbing your head?

[wet gorge]

moving it left and right

[raw wadi]

Shoulder should rotate forward I feel. Now it's kinda limit reach.

[wet gorge]

but it seems when I do this it also overrides the head.

[oak crow]

oh it's definitely taking over for your head there

[wet gorge]

Yeah, which I don't feel it should.

[oak crow]

if it doesn't in legacy you're probably right 😂

[wet gorge]

Well there's one clip for each.

[oak crow]

as you showed, it doesn't in legacy, so you're right

[wet gorge]

Putting her on the canny

[raw wadi]

2.0 fix the over rotation of the body when going left to right. But maybe they overwrite the head to do so

[oak crow]

shoulders not rotating forward is part of the reason why arms feel so short

[wet gorge]

yeah, but you'd think if I set that to "Tracking" it would override that. Spoiler alert: It doesn't

[raw wadi]

What if you put animation on the head

It do the same?

[wet gorge]

Well, it's being animated by the walking animation.

And yeah

it does the same thing

[raw wadi]

So they do overwrite it

[wet gorge]

Without a custom base layer you can still move your head around though

[raw wadi]

Only happen when you lock both?

[wet gorge]

It's only doing this because I want to be able to have a toggle to have no walking animations

[raw wadi]

Or only head or only hip

The new option

[wet gorge]

So, if don't change to Animation on the hips, crouching and prone animations get REALLL funky looking, but I can move my head.

Basically you turn into a spider monster

[oak crow]

I never even thought about these issues since I just turn off animations and slide everywhere like a weirdo

[wet gorge]

Yeah, this model is for a medieval roleplay thing I do, so if you want to for example mime someone picking you up doing this kind of thing is handy.

[oak crow]

I can imagine

[wet gorge]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/when-hipanimation-in-tracking-control-headhmd-movement-is-also-seems-ignored

Someone else had the same issue.

[acoustic python]

yeah it is fitting pretty well, i made sure to look at that. The white silhouette is me tposing in front of my camera on top of my model (different outfit, same rig/proportions)

[heady thistle]

heyo, question, has anyone tried using vive controllers as trackers for this?

[harsh lagoon]

oculus rift cv1 user here, no fullbody
i'm loving the update to the tracking! My IPD / FOV feels different than before which is unexpected, i feel somehow larger in my own body (even with height set correctly). it doesnt feel bad its just different, my hands felt a bit more in the right place though. I'm in love with the elbow collision to the body, much needed! and i love that the shoulders finally have use, my arms and shoulders have never looked better! only small thing about the shoulders is i feel like they dont stretch forward enough when i reach forward. My hand stops moving and my shoulders still wouldnt stretch which was strange. All good changes overall though!

good job whoever worked on that 😁

[tight aurora]

works

although i config flashed mine

[frosty loom]

https://ask.vrchat.com/t/how-to-convert-those-dusty-old-vive-wands-into-trackers/8823

[silk olive]

ooooh. i can now use my extra kinect tracking points!

[silk olive]

Hey, so apparantly my head is going through my chest when i sit, it doesn't happen on live.

[digital grove]

not sure kinect supports sitting down

[silk olive]

It usually works for me

in live that is

(Using an xbox one kinect, trust me it works)

[digital grove]

in fact the head through chest is a very old bug that's been there for years and seems to be fixed with this update

[silk olive]

Huh.

i think i'm using an avatar with a relatively old rig

though it's interesting it actually got worse over the update

(for me that is)

Actually, every part of it is better for me

but the sitting is the only problem

[digital grove]

have you tested different avatars

[silk olive]

Because the knees and elbows are freaking great

I'll have to check later, had a crash

[left nest]

Is anyone else having the issue where with full body ik, their foot tracker orbs are in the floor, but with legacy they line up correctly.

For instance with legacy the trackers are placed correctly relative to the floor and my foot, but with ik, the trackers are below the floor. And its not a tracker issue, as when i view the trackers in steamvr they are in the correct place.

[oak pendant]

This one is a known issue: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feet-under-the-floor However, the relationship between scale and User Real Height is also different in IK2.0. In general, if you preferred the scaling in legacy, increasing your User Real Height will allow you to restore the same scaling. (This won't solve the floor height issue though, that's a bug that still needs to be addressed)

[swift thunder]

Here is my feedback on ik 2.0, after testing it for about 12 hours over two days.

The big issue: If i completely pull my shoulders inwards and only rotate the joint, the arms length seem fine. The moment i move them, not just rotate, my real hands reach way beyond my virtual hands. The vrchat ik 2.0 does not account for the shoulder joint moving.
Sadly, this makes the beta feel terrible. The shoulders need to move and the hands need to always be where they are in real life. I need to set my user real height about 15-25cm higher (from 175cm to 190 or 195) to make this not a pain.
I also tried to make the arms of my avatar long enough, which looks rather comical and way beyond any reasonable human proportions, and it still doesnt feel good ingame. Reaching forward, they still lock up way before my real hands, even with a much increased shoulder bone. And while holding the arms down, they are strongly bent ingame when thay are fully locked out irl.
Moving the arms to the side, my right arm locks out before the left one, moving them forward, the left one locks out first. My irl arms are symmetric, there was co controller drift or anything.

Other issues and nitpicks i have:

• The neck moves too much with the head (only when hip lock is active), far more than my irl neck, i would tone that down. On head lock, the neck doesn't move much at all.

• Knee tracking works beautifully, elbow not so much. My trackers are mounted symmetrically just above the elbow joint. They show in steamvr in the correct position, as does every other tracker and controller, no offset or anything. In calibration, the balls are where they should be, but once i press the triggers, my left elbow is pointed inwards. It still moves independently from the right one, but its just offset inwards.

• Steamvr trackers are legendarily impossible to turn off, especially when charging. If i use just 3 trackers, and have my others on the charger, they still are recognized in steamvr and vrchat, and mess up calibration in vrc. I would like an option to force different tracker setups, like just 6 point, even if more trackers are recognized. Temporary fix is to wrap the charging trackers in aluminum foil and turn them off through the steamvr ui.

But to not just complain, the ik of the elbows without elbow trackers is much nicer, same for the knees. The hip to head ik is a night and day difference to before. Even with locking ik to the hip, my viewport doesn't end up inside of the neck anymore when i sit down.
As long as the shoulders not moving issue gets fixed, this will be really good.

[oak pendant]

Woah, thanks! I'll read through this... but before I do I need to suggest that things go into canny wherever possible. After the weekend as I work through the development on this, that's the big organized list I'll be looking at.

[swift thunder]

Ill gladly post it there as well

[oak pendant]

Thanks, here's a link in case you need it: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20 With detailed feedback like that it would be a shame if it were to slide off into the noise of back and forth discussion (which is what discord is great for)

[swift thunder]

should i split it up into individual posts, or just dump it as is?

[oak pendant]

See if there are existing posts on canny for any parts of it and paste those parts in as comments and upvote the canny if your issue is the same

then if anything is left over, make a separate canny for each relevant issue

separating it helps gauge overall community feedback because others can chime in and vote on each separate issue

[swift thunder]

ok, ill do my best

[oak pendant]

Thanks 👍 I'll read through it here now, but "it doesn't exist unless it's on canny" (And I'm only human and can forget things if they aren't on a list)

[tawdry glen]

(And I'm only human and can forget things if they aren't on a list)
I felt that on a personal level lol.

My memory isn't the best either.

[oak pendant]

Haha yeah, actually my memory is pretty good, but it's more like forgetting to remember. Going down a list of tasks to work on is much easier than choosing whichever issue one comes to mind first.

So these aren't on canny yet as far as I know:

The neck moves too much with the head (only when hip lock is active), far more than my irl neck, i would tone that down. On head lock, the neck doesn't move much at all.

my left elbow is pointed inwards. It still moves independently from the right one, but its just offset inwards.

If i use just 3 trackers, and have my others on the charger, they still are recognized in steamvr and vrchat, and mess up calibration in vrc.

oop meant that to tag as a reply @swift thunder

I think each one should be a separate canny post

To ask a question about the arm reach issue, are you able to solve it to a satisfactory level by increasing your User Real Height?

[swift thunder]

i just posted them:
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/neck-movement-too-strong-with-hip-lock-almost-none-on-head-lock
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/elbow-tracking-assymetric
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/recognized-but-not-tracking-trackers-mess-up-calibration-and-ik

[oak pendant]

It seems like this might be feedback that the shoulders should reach more to the front

[swift thunder]

mostly, hands feel natural, there is still a bit of an arm pull, mostly if i move the to the front

its a trade off between having the feet too low and the hands feeling right

[oak pendant]

Also about asymmetric tracking, there's a simple test you can do in the steamvr overlay. If you put your controller rigidly against your headset and spin in your playspace, do you see them weaving in small circles? Or staying locked in position with your HMD? (I know you'd have to test in vr later)

In my experience asymmetric elbow behavior reverses when you face the opposite direction in your IRL playspace and is caused by imperfect real space alignment between the HMD and controllers (this can happen even with an all-lighthouse setup)

[oak pendant]

Ok, so the arms can feel correct (shoulders and all?) if you adjust User Real Height, but it comes at the cost of your feet being too low?

(The feet going below the floor is a know bug right now)

[swift thunder]

tested it right now, controllers are completely rigid, the feet beeing below my real ones is caused by the increased user height setting, if i set it to my real height its fine

[oak pendant]

Also to add on the "imperfect real space alignment between the HMD and controller" point, this was much less perceptible in legacy IK because the torso was dragged around by the controllers, and the torso would have been dragged to the center point of any offset if one were to exist

[oak pendant]

If you rotate IRL are you able to find an orientation which causes the opposite elbow to bend first? (you might need to joystick turn in VRC to re-face a mirror or something)

Also @swift thunder I assume you're testing stuff right now, but if you're able to add screenshots of your elbows issues to that canny post that would help too.

[swift thunder]

will do

[oak pendant]

thanks!

[jovial heath]

I am liking the fact that an avatar I'm working on for someone, I was getting the dreaded 'sideways hip' issue while under FBT and this appears to just be auto-fixed in the beta!

[steady gyro]

Are there a certain set of configurations that are required for this? I've done some testing and I used the normal 6 point with my hip and feet, then added trackers for the knees. Those worked fine, but adding a single tracker to one elbow showed no difference. Is it all or nothing?

[zenith glacier]

i noticed yesterday during 8p tracking testing, that as soon as one tracker dies (in that case foot tracker), that the leg/feet trackers got reassigned weirdly. Maybe it would be a good idea to just "stop" the tracking like normal 6point does?

[regal oasis]

pretty sure both trackers must be working for every left/right pair of tracked joints (except hips of course)
just move one from knees to the other elbow - knees will stop working but elbows will start

that's why it's 6/8/10 point tracking, not 6-10 :)

[steady gyro]

ah yeah that seems kinda obvious haha

[marble obsidian]

oops sorry about that link. tried puttin it in a video player!

[vital inlet]

I'll second this!

[strange idol]

'To my knowledge', if we're thinking of the same thing, this offsetting appears to be specific to Vive Trackers and their flashed Steam Controller dongles. I'd assume it's related to connection issues between the devices and the dongles? For example, if you pair a controller to a tracker dongle then this issue happens, if you pair a Vive Tracker to a headset receiver this issue doesn't happen, etc. 🙂

The SteamVR team wants to work on this as user's pairing controllers to tracker dongles if becoming a rather persistent issue. Unfortunately I don't see a fix for the issue when using Vive Trackers outside of buying a TundraLabs 'Super wireless dongle' for greatly improved connectivity.

I think it's even more insulting because Vive again used the same receivers for the 3.0 trackers... 😅

[oak pendant]

Oh really? I'm using my index controllers on flashed* steam controller dongles. So the issue only applies to reflashed dongles?

I mean, stock vive dongles wouldn't have that issue? (I have some of those sitting unused at the moment)

[strange idol]

Sorry, I mean the dongles in general, after all the Vive Trackers just use a flashed Steam Controller dongle. 🙂

Stock Vive dongles have the same connectivity issues.

[oak pendant]

I see what you mean, yeah I thought they were the same

Ok, hmm interesting, yeah that would be great if a steamvr update could fix that. Now that we don't pull the torso to the hands (allowing it to move to the offset center), people will notice this
more and more

[strange idol]

How come you pair your controllers to a dongle? Using a hybrid lighthouse setup or something? Or WMR? :o

[oak pendant]

Trying to reduce USB traffic over the wireless adapter for my headset

[strange idol]

My Tundra trackers arrived a few days ago with their Super Wireless Dongle, and man... The different is amazing. So far I haven't experienced a single 'drift' or offset issue.

Just like with the Index Controllers paired to HMD.

[oak pendant]

That's good to know that some solution exists at least. Will be great when Tundra can ramp production

[strange idol]

Does it make that much difference? In comparison to the HMD video, I can't imagine controller poses take much bandwidth. :o

[oak pendant]

I had the dongles, so didn't really have a reason not to

Also if wireless connectivity drops, steamvr handles it better when the other tracked devices remain connected

[strange idol]

For sure! They've made a really great product, really great to be away from Vive's constant re-releasing of the same product with minimal improvements... 😅

That makes sense!

I'm personally waiting to give PiMax's upcoming '12K QLED' headset a try, until then, I'm stuck wired with the Index. 😄