#ik-2

1 messages · Page 5 of 1

empty solar
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there'd need to be some improvements for OSC but like Prof. Oak says this ain't the place for that

rustic zodiac
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I mean, Kung is the IK master so filling his head with idea's isn't a bad idea 😉

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As far as I know, the original IK2 Beta and suggestions for chest and shoulders is the reason we have those features today 🙂

empty solar
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I'm wondering, does lock all approximate when standing vs sitting, or when legs are straight vs bent?

rustic zodiac
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It just forces head and hips to the tracker positions IIRC

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Legs are not affected by it from my testing, Head only adjusts legs as it can force the hip position to be different.

empty solar
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I was thinking in relative to standing vs sitting to have the viewpoint not drift when sitting but attempting to keep it as accurate as possible. But another thing that would be worth considering would be for manual tweaking options via the SDK but that would have to be fine tuned in order to get a satisfactory result

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and i mean really tuned

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but Kung is only one person so I say let them cook

livid skiff
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hmm tbh i'm not really a fan of the the local tracker jitter "smoothing" as it is now. It looks good but "feels wrong". i'm quite sensitive to delay and it just feels off having my legs dragging behind the trackers a bit. It feels a little like walking on clouds or in a dream... it's a bit immersion breaking for me.
When laying down everything feels numbed down while doing subtle movements.
For some reason it doesnt feel as bad for the hand controllers as it does for feet, knee and elbows (i dont have a chest tracker).
It would be amazing if would be possible without the delay or if there could be a slider for how much we want it to fight the jitter and that we can turn it off completely. I prefer responsiveness and precise little movements and dont really want to sacrifice it for less local jitter.
If all the ingame settings would be too much of a hassle, it would be great if there could be a launch argument to disable it. As it is now, i wouldn't like to use it.

devout current
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Not everything is effected by the change btw. you will mostly see it on your feet.
Kung talked about it earlier:
#ik-2 message

livid skiff
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glad that Kung is already aware of everything. I hope i didnt sound too rude. I'm sure there is a lot work behind everything and i am glad that there is a lot testing and communication going on before realeasing stuff

serene ermine
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Thought I'd give my 2 cents too.
I used the beta for hours on Saturday with 11 point tracking, including some dances. After these changes, I cannot go back to the old IK. So much better.

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The smoothing is so nice, before when I would stomp my foot when shuffling, it would jitter like mad. Now it looks way more accurate to what I do irl.

devout current
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I have to say it's quite interesting to see the different opinions about the "smoothing" (non predicted tracking data).
There are people who love, people who really hate it and a few people who would want some what of a middle ground.

serene ermine
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Yeah, I'm surprised at the negitive feedback given how positive my experience was.

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Like this Saturday was the first time I could disassociate with my real body and associate with my avatar given how accurate the tracking was.

devout current
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Everyone has different opinions / priorities when it comes to tracking

livid skiff
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it certainly looks great. for me it's just the feel that isnt right as i am sensitive so slight delay. i feel like i would fall over my feet because they drag behind. some kind of motion sickness? xD idk

serene ermine
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True, for me I want accuracy and no jitter given my use cases. Others may have different issues.

devout current
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It's definitely more accurate, but sadly you also have a bigger delay due to it

serene ermine
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I don't mind, I don't even notice it tbh

livid skiff
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i guess i have other priorities too because i dont dance xD

devout current
serene ermine
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Even not dancing, I was just sitting and it was WAY more accurate.

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It was a wild experience for me given I would always notice issues previously

livid skiff
devout current
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yep

vestal ridge
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I've even opted out of the ik beta for now b/cuz I'm sick of it

warm jasper
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I stated before this really needs a toggle to turn off. It makes little sense to force smoothing like that when not everyone even experiences jitter. on top of most tracker set ups have this already built in these days. it just further compounds delays on delays and feels terrible. it is AWFUL for dancers.

devout current
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You might find it awfully, but please don't generalize your opinion as the one every dancer has. I've seen quite a few who really like it

sullen bloom
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Is there going to be a guide for how best to set up the hips->spine->chest ratio going forward to best make use of the spine compression? Cause I've noticed a number of my avatars noticeably crumple at the chest now since that's the new 'crumple zone' instead of the neck. Not a deal breaker but it's definitely noticable sometimes.

oak pendant
sullen bloom
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Neat, I do like that I can finally experience lock all without my avatar fully going hunchback. Made me notice that lock all lets you use the chest trackers pitch and not just the yaw like in the other two modes

oak pendant
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Yeah, new in ik beta is using pitch and roll of the chest tracker, before it used yaw to twist the spine as it does now, but now it will also use the tracker's full orientation data to help with chest isolation type moves (while also matching the position)

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Isolation style dance (or any movement style where as much 1:1 tracking as possible is required) is the main target use case for lock-both

sullen bloom
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Was wondering if there could be an option in the future for how much of the pitch/roll is used from the chest tracker to influence the chest. Cause I've found that it sometimes feels like too much movement. Though that's probably pretty niche and also likely more of an issue w/ the avis I was using more than anything.

robust tangle
devout current
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good news for you! That's already the case xD

robust tangle
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Kung is doing the lord’s work 🙏

wise dew
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Finally got into non-desktop mode over the weekend. Didn't expect to feel how good the new beta ik is.
Could not find any issues even when trying to break it. lol.

oak pendant
mossy tendon
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it would definitely be nice to have a slider for chest/spine max angle bend stuff
but i understand not doing it because having even more fbt tweaking options just adds complexity to a non-power user happening to scroll to that spot

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i might like to see less side to side chest movement, its kind of funny seeing my chest sway side to side by tilting my head. i like it a lot as it is for forward movement though

wise dew
oak pendant
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Nice!

oak pendant
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IK-Beta is temporarily not live compatible. I'm working on getting a 2023.2.4 compatible version out to everyone ASAP

grand lynx
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yaaay, hard to play without it

empty root
fair rapids
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Umm by chance anybody have a problem with where apparently some servers have the wrong client?

wheat river
zinc plank
devout current
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Well that was quick, thanks Kung!

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That's a fucking amazing change log!

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Love it!

hot fulcrum
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Well, he is testing few hours as per as branch log...

oak pendant
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Live compatible again!

devout current
wheat river
oak pendant
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Oh god, not that again NotLikeThis

devout current
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I'm so happy I made this

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xD

oak pendant
devout current
oak pendant
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The default is 0% (prioritizing better looking poses is usually the default when possible)

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So no change for current IK-Beta users unless you go mess with the setting

honest apex
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I expected AT LEAST a few hours
Bless you

oak pendant
oak pendant
devout current
oak pendant
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spray ratJAM Haha! Too slow!

devout current
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:c

oak pendant
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(j/k ofc, I appreciate all the beta testing help you provide!)

devout current
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You can't just give me nothing to make a canny about! I'll always find something ratPeek

oak pendant
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There's gotta be something. I only had time for basic testing of the scaling interactions

honest apex
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The slider for motion prediction seems logically backwards or am I thinking about this wrong?

devout current
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time to give it the ultimate test with AufioShrink

oak pendant
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0% is no future prediction (remember it's not and never was smoothing)

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It's a little confusing but doing otherwise would have to set it up as "technically incorrect" which is the worst kind of incorrect haha 🤓 ☝️

honest apex
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So 0% has no smoothing and 100% is maximum
Announcement makes it sound like 0% is 100% smoothing enabled

oak pendant
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It's the percent of motion prediction that is in use

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People mistakenly think it's applying smoothing and it would be incorrect to perpetuate that I think by having that be a higher percentage of something, becuse the raw "real" poses have "nothing" applied to them, so better match with a 0% on a slider

empty root
honest apex
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So the announcement is just backwards?
0% is the previous IK-Beta behavior
Would mean it's on
and 100% is the same as live.
And now motion smoothing would be off

devout current
honest apex
oak pendant
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Let me double check. It's built on the 2023.2.4 rc thinkingrotative

devout current
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that's just me starting my game btw xD

honest apex
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Is your home world a public?

devout current
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no, Invite+

oak pendant
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You may be confused if you'd believed we were applying smoothing, but actually in the ik beta before this we had been removing prediction that SteamVR was applying

wheat river
rapid goblet
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Same

devout current
wise dew
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Wait its already live compatable again? lol

oak pendant
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Made sure to restart steam?, I gotta check and not be chatting in here

agile drum
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Gotta use the turn based servers

oak pendant
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It should be though people seem to be having problems

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if it's not will fix asap

rustic zodiac
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My vrc did not update, might be incompatible with live?

hot fulcrum
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What's going on...

proven cave
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all good for me

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(:

honest apex
oak pendant
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It's possible that people having trouble didn't get the new update downloaded yet

rustic zodiac
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I'm sure kung will have it sorted by tomorrow, for now just use prod

rapid goblet
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restarting steam rn see if it just didn't update

oak pendant
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checking myself now

wheat river
oak pendant
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Works for me

wheat river
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Restarted PC and will now check again

oak pendant
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On build 1319

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[64ad]

rustic zodiac
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Oh Kung, before I go off. The new IK with the neck is MILES better than before. Almost all the weird neck squashing is completely gone 👍

hot fulcrum
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huhh....yeah? it is not network compatible

image.png
oak pendant
devout current
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weird, now it works

wise dew
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validating game files fixed the not updating issue for me

oak pendant
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You may have been joining an instance created on the previous version

wheat river
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Ok it works now

hot fulcrum
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👆

devout current
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I saw it updating, but it still needed a Steam restart

wise dew
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Yeah steam reboot then validate seams to make steam pull down the right files

rapid goblet
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also working for me now, after 1 error trying to log into my home world

oak pendant
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Ok cool seems like it's just the gradual update process sweaty_pressure

devout current
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Why is the slider design different? xD

image.png
oak pendant
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To take up less space, you don't need as much fine tuning as an angle right?

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The other ones have extremely fine-tune interactions with spatial behavior

devout current
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true

oak pendant
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Same design as calibration range below

devout current
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aaaa, no slider snapping qwq

devout current
oak pendant
devout current
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xD

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I love this one

image.png
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I no longer crumble up when sitting down xD

wheat river
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It's giving the same error again when i got in VR

devout current
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hm

oak pendant
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It would depend on the instance you're joining I think

wheat river
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it worked before on desktop

oak pendant
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Do you have a public instance set as your home world, or one set with launch option or something?

wheat river
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nope

devout current
oak pendant
# wheat river nope

May be worth verifying files again, and possibly restarting PC or something, since it appears to work for some people it seems like it's not the build itself

tawdry nymph
oak pendant
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(other people are in on the build in VR right?)

tawdry nymph
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is this intended?

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vrc shows tracker on the floor after tracking loss

devout current
oak pendant
devout current
oak pendant
# devout current

Ok yeah that's about expected. It won't fly totally across the room. We'd probably have to cache poses to do better than that

devout current
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ah

oak pendant
# tawdry nymph is this intended?

It's not desired but I'd have to know why your tracker is doing that to know if it's avoidable. Poses will not update if they're not bPoseIsValid or not Running_OK

timber grove
oak pendant
oak pendant
devout current
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No problem ^^

tawdry nymph
oak pendant
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It might be that the hybrid handling of the hip is messing it up, if so should be an easy fix

devout current
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It works perfect on my foot

oak pendant
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Yep, it's bugged then. Thanks for the quick catch ( @tawdry nymph too!)

devout current
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Same with with prediction at 100%

oak pendant
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Yeah, it's only the hybrid handling that might still be active

devout current
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Controllers still fly away btw

tawdry nymph
oak pendant
tawdry nymph
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during my testing on RVR of the behaviour between Running_OK and Calibrating_OutOfRange, I've noticed that sometimes during frenetic movement and dances, the tracker has "temporary occlusions" that lasts like a few milliseconds, but the IMU looked pretty capable at filling these temporary gaps

devout current
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btw, is the hip also effected by tfe slider?

tawdry nymph
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have you noticed something similar during your trials?

oak pendant
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If you're able observe and document it happening with this new behavior in VRC please let me know

tawdry nymph
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it's like micro-occlusions that the trackers just seamlessly completes. to illustrate, it's like if you attached a trail renderer pen on all the data that is Running_OK, and another on all the data that is Calibrating_OutOfRange, the pen from the Calibrating_OutOfRange fills the missing gaps on the Running_OK in a non-degenerate way

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sure, I'll keep an eye out

oak pendant
warped grotto
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Just wondering is the ik beta updated with scaling or is that being kept out of it till IK2 gets pushed out of beta?

devout current
oak pendant
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It's updated now

warped grotto
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Oh lmao I just kinda glossed over that sorry. I read it like 10 times and just never saw it

civic wagon
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Hey Kung where is it that you place the viewpoint on your avatar? Since ive noticed that viewpoint positions plays a noticeable effect on FBT; from my testing ive noticed that having it further into the head causes your legs to bend more when looking at your feet, and having it further towards the outside of your head makes that happen less

oak pendant
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So you have that relationship between your real HMD and real neck pivot, and there's a relationship between the avatar's viewpoint and the base of the avatar's head, connecting to the avatar's neck

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But beyon that the avatar's torso and shoulders may not be as far front-back as you IRL body, so the effect the HMD has on dragging the avatar around may vary becaues of that

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So rather than a "correct location", it's probably best to adjust with trial and error per avatar

tawdry nymph
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side-topic, does OSC trackers have a way to tell VRChat that it's lost tracking, so that VRChat tries to run these same remediation strategies as a non-Running_OK tracker?

civic wagon
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Ah okie thank you, gonna play around with some stuff later and different rigs

oak pendant
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In theory the sending app if it knows its own tracking fidelity could actively* send unmoving data for when fidelity fails

tawdry nymph
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you don't do any unusual remediation like solving in avatar space/head space rather than playspace or something?

short knot
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How about sending (0, 0, 0) pos

oak pendant
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OSC trackers should currently allow 0,0,0

oak pendant
hot fulcrum
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so....more like earlier "failed to authenticate" issue more likely IX side issue and not need to verify game or restart steam anymore.

image.png
oak pendant
oak pendant
narrow yew
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oh, settings reseted? because of the new menu? avatar measurement to arm span and to lock hip

devout current
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yeah, seems like it

final raven
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New update?

hot fulcrum
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ah, new update.

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huh, no patch note?

devout current
hot fulcrum
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comes

oak pendant
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Thanks for the near instant bug reporting on that issue @tawdry nymph & @devout current the fix is out now

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If possible, please give this a try in the latest build, it may be improved a bit

urban pumice
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is there a one handed calibration?

devout current
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kind of, you need to press space to calibrate

urban pumice
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basically anyone who owns a valve index product is aware that valve hardware is made out of glass and can barely make it 3 months on a shelf without breaking

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and losing 1 controller invalidates every single tracker you own in vrchat

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and IK beta actually has a feature regression

devout current
urban pumice
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closing/opening a menu no longer exits T pose, which doesnt go away after respawns or exits, meaning you are locked in T pose forever

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especially since this spacebar thing i am about to try isnt documented anywhere

urban pumice
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this is way worse than the years old problem of the avatar debug menu requiring you to press pgup/pgdn

oak pendant
urban pumice
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please add scrolling to the debug menu while you are in there please

oak pendant
hot fulcrum
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Is " Shoulder Width Compensation" option be removed ok ik beta?
(just to be sure)

oak pendant
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No, is it gone!?

urban pumice
devout current
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it's still there for me?

hot fulcrum
hot fulcrum
urban pumice
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second button of "apply calibration" to replace double trigger click will work for people with a broken controller, and those people are highly unlikely to have elbow trackers, so button should be sufficient

oak pendant
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It's in the Tracking & IK main menu page

devout current
hot fulcrum
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ah, I got why

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It removed from quick menu

devout current
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it was never there lol

hot fulcrum
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Is it....oh, then my bad

oak pendant
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Though this update does move a lot of stuff from the QM into the MM

devout current
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yeah

hot fulcrum
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xd yeah

oak pendant
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(2023.2.4 update I mean)

hot fulcrum
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indeed, my friend crying on change as JP tutorial world need to update.....as UI be changed.

urban pumice
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spread the word

oak pendant
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Haha that's one way to do it. Probably best possible work-around right now is like one of those voice command programs to do a keystroke for you. Also very much not ideal.

urban pumice
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also vrc kinda has arm length multiplier in a hacky kind of way

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but having worked with IK a lot it is really surprising how few applications have implemented both an arm length multiplier and a leg length multiplier

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it's a really big deal to be able to match spine length correctly

timber grove
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Wait, space bar can calibrate FBT?

urban pumice
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it worked for me

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no idea if thats an IK beta thing or was in the old IK system

oak pendant
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Been that way for a very long time

urban pumice
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i'm gonna tell everyone that has an index

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it's really important for when one of the controller design flaws make them one handed

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and then they have to "wait for the warehouse" for a month

timber grove
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I would just purchase a new set if one of mine go oof lol

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I’ve hit some things pretty darn hard and no damage had been from that thankfully lol

urban pumice
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arent they like $350 though?

timber grove
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1 set is $280 usd

urban pumice
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bro not everyone made out of money

timber grove
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good point

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As a person with money to spend I have no huge issues with that, although the index controllers should be a bit more durable.

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Left joystick touch sensor went out about a month ago.

urban pumice
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fact of the matter is that vrchat has one handed index users and people with disabilities and need to be accommodating the disabled

timber grove
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Good idea. Make a canny for that.

pure hedge
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Oh yeah, you need to be able to calibrate with one arm. You can hit spacebar to confirm but that's not a solution.

timber grove
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use the force

marsh elm
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use xsoverlay

warm jasper
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did vrcat escape again From the quick meu? >.>

civic wagon
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idrk whats change in past few updates since initial beta release but at first it was just slightly better for me but after some testing just now its very noticably better!

harsh lagoon
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anyone else on this ik beta having trouble loading other peoples avis? they stay stuck at "queued" for about a minute

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im the only one in my lobby on the beta and only one having the issue, and i tested my internet speed and its fine, other things are loading well

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restarted once and its still happening so thought i'd ask here

robust tangle
deft spruce
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I was gonna talk about issues I had with some Avatar Setups using Lock All on various Furry Avatars I frequently use due to the Spines on them... BUT after the latest Build, I think it's so much better now. No more crunching when sitting down! Thank you @oak pendant! Don’t change a thing and please keep it this way from this point on. 🙌

north lagoon
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IDk if this is just an issue with the IK beta just yet but when I scale up some constraints on my avatar don't scale correctly with my causing my chest to invert in on itself

formal spear
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Is the ik beta updated with the new update aswell? Or included?

civic wagon
jade wyvern
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the latest changes are fantastic. I love Lock Head now and will probably use that from now on, since the Lock Both chest movement has always looked comically rubberbandy for me.
the prediction slider is nice too. now that I can compare 0% vs 100% with passthrough, I see that foot tracking looks more accurate with 0%, and now I realize that the prediction made my legs move faster than they actually were, which might be why some people feel that 0% is delayed. I think 0% feels pretty close to irl, and it's definitely faster than the equivalent SmoothTracking setup I have to use to eliminate stompy foot jitter.

ebon laurel
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I can't talk in open beta for some reason? so this is gonna go here. I don't know if this is the latest patch or the new IK beta but I can't auto-level and follow my face at the same time. nor can i turn on smoothed camera and auto level.

smoothed and follow me override auto-level and autolevel doesnt level at all

honest apex
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Oh heck. The "freeze relative to playspace" is actually an amazing change

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No longer need to freeze locomotion if planning to turn off your trackers and get under a blanket. Body wont rotate widly if you turn onto your side.

ruby musk
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yesss had same problems

honest apex
narrow yew
mystic basalt
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I am really liking the ik beta as of last night except for one thing I've noticed my spine collapsing a lot more easily

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Definitely more than I would like due to the model I use

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Would there ever be any chance of adjustment slider for this?

devout current
livid glen
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hey @oak pendant is it possible to still have rotational imu tracking working if a tracker (eg hip) is occluded? the work you and the team are doing is awesome. This update fixes many annoyances and problems. Having rotational tracking still work would be the cherry on top. Also network jitter fix when?

oak pendant
oak pendant
oak pendant
mystic basalt
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I use maya (booth) here is one of mine avtr_974fa956-e547-48c7-95fe-574bcd3366dd

oak pendant
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Thanks! Do you have any sceenshots of that failing pose?

mystic basalt
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I think it's an issue for models by kyubi because of how he tends to weight paint and position his armatures

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No sorry I am at work

oak pendant
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Ah no worries. I'll take a look

mystic basalt
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Putting into lock both on the non beta ik will give a very good extreme example of what the issue is

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But I am finding it's crunching up in that area a bit more since last night

oak pendant
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Do you use a chest tracker?

mystic basalt
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No

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I use lock head btw

oak pendant
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Hmm as far as I can see that avatar is working properly in Lock-Head

devout current
#

intensives note taking noises

timber grove
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kung noises

oak pendant
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Heh, I wonder what that noise would be

devout current
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good question xD

timber grove
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"ik....bone rotation....avatar"

oak pendant
timber grove
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But fr, this newest IK beta is a 10/10. Slider makes it 100% positive. Thanks for the hard work

deft spruce
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Dunno if you saw my message, but it still stands. Your fixes to Lock All yesterday made my Avatars perform leagues better when sitting down now. No more crunching!

oak pendant
devout current
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(Spine Mode got reset, yes)

mystic basalt
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I Will Check over everything tonight

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I spend about 125 hours a week in fbt so maybe problems seem worse to me

oak pendant
mystic basalt
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I know I was in lock head though because I have tried lock both every update to see how it is

devout current
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Yeah I'm also pretty happy with the current lock head and lock both

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Haven't tried chest tracking yet though (in lock head)

deft spruce
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For reference, I use 10-point FBT. No Chest Tracker.

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But yeah, I’m very happy.

mystic basalt
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I would love to try chest tracking but I have not seen a solution yet which would be comfortable enough with booba to wear as much as I do

oak pendant
devout current
oak pendant
devout current
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and no laying down

deft spruce
oak pendant
#

Has anyone tried the new lock-head positional chest tracking support? I haven't heard any feedback on that yet, which is probably meaning there aren't problems. But I'm curious what people think

devout current
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If I find a way to magically make a 4th tracker appear I would love to try it out xD

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My bf has a chest tracker though, I'll ask him later what he thinks about it ^^

oak pendant
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Yeah, personally I think EOZ stuff is really great. I've talked with the staff on multiple occasions and they genuinely care about getting more people into FBT more comfortably

oak pendant
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(like borrow from a foot I mean)

devout current
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yeah I know, I did that before. Without a strap for it is kinda janky though xD

oak pendant
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Yeah, I guess not a real test situation

devout current
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I'll hopefully be able to get more trackers in a few months when I have the money for it

mystic basalt
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I have spent 5 digits of hours in fbt and have tried every strap that existed before eoz and eoz blows them all out of the water

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Especially the upgraded vrchat editions

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They actually seem to care about making comfortable quality products unlike some (Rebuff)

narrow yew
mystic basalt
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I have had random generic straps that were better quality than rebuff lol

narrow yew
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especially with this damn steamvr bug being around where it's like 10% chance of crashing each time i playspace move

devout current
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I have 3 Vive Trackers 2.0 and the Rebuf Track Straps+... I'm never going to buy a Rebuff product again

mystic basalt
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They made it obvious how much they cared by using usb cables instead of pogo pins

devout current
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🙃

sullen bloom
devout current
#

only lock all does the stretching / compressing of the spine

#

So yeah, it makes sense you didn't saw it in Lock Head xD

sullen bloom
#

Hm, maybe it was just the rotation of the chest I was seeing then. Cause it def felt like the chest of my avis was getting compressed/stretched sometimes

robust tangle
oak pendant
robust tangle
#

OK that’s exactly what I needed!

oak pendant
deft spruce
jade wyvern
mystic basalt
#

Uses pogo pins very pog

devout current
#

To me lock head and lock both are basically like:
Lock Head: more stable, but doesn't respect tracking data as much (stable ik > accuracy)
Lock Both: not as stable, but respects tracking data as much as it can while still looking good (accuracy > stable ik)

That doesn't mean that Lock Both is unstable, but as it tries to respect the trackers position / rotation as much as it can, it sometimes wont look as perfect / stable from the outside as lock head does.

marsh elm
mystic basalt
#

Yes

rustic berry
narrow yew
#

what's happening with my knees when trying to calibrate? they are moving when i move my head forwards and backwards 🤔

oak pendant
#

Yeah, that's no good. May be related to the issues with scaled small avatars feet being broken after 2023.2.4 merge

oak pendant
narrow yew
#

never seen it before but i didn't use my extra trackers much

latent knot
#

I sit up and my chest sways. I don't think it should be. This happens in the "All lock" mode, and in the "Lock-head" mode. On all my avatars. There is no tracker on the chest.

devout current
#

That is normal, without losing chest / spine flexibility there can't be much done about it.

#

There is already some compensation for it when standing straight (when your hip is in line with your head)

oak pendant
#

Yeah, there was a lot of iteration there during the closed beta and a bit during open ik beta too. It's currently in a tradeoff of allowing a curve in the spine and looking good in motion. The more directly above the hip (relative to tracked hip's current orientation) it is the less it will do that, but when you recline you'll want a curved spine and so it does to some extent

#

Beyond that, lock hip is the mode for someone who really has issues with that behavior.

robust tangle
#

This may not be on topic but I spotted it when testing - is there a reason temp pose space doesn’t activate in FBT? Not new behavior, it never has since it’s inclusion. Just means I can’t test fbt + sitting

latent knot
#

Yes, "Lock hip" doesn't have that problem. The latest version of the beta works best for "All lock". Although the early versions of the beta did not have "chest swing".

oak pendant
#

There was feedback to slightly increase the amount the spine curves, which is what's causing this. The earlier version would have had it too, but to a lesser extent

devout current
#

Yeah, the current behaviour is fine imo

hot fulcrum
#

Compare to before, when I do head pat, my chest not shake widely. so I'm happy with current too.

oak pendant
uncut sedge
#

almost like the spin is being scaled

oak pendant
#

If looking up and down is causing a lot of compression / extension there and you're using Lock-Both mode, then that's the intended fail-state for the introduced compression/extension. Some avatars will be less suited to it because of the way the viewpoint and head-root on the avatar sweeps with rotation of the user's real headset. In that case using one of the other two modes is best

latent knot
#

The best behavior of an avatar is when it matches your skeleton (proportions) as closely as possible. I make avatars myself. And I use the "Legacy" calibration to accurately set the trackers.

oak pendant
#

One of the benefits on non-legacy calibration is it ensures that the viewpoint is also matching when you bind in. Because if using legacy you're not calibrating an offset to the viewpoint and it will snap to the viewpoint there, so for example distance from viewpoint to hip tracker may not match what you're trying to calibrate for. If you stand very carefully though the discrepancy would be minor

devout current
#

I completely forgot about legacy existing ngl xD

latent knot
#

I have no problems with the head (descriptor) with legacy calibration. The avatar's head snaps onto my descriptor perfectly. The descriptor distance is chosen by me to exactly match my face.

#

Question. Why does the chest not turn after the head and arms? She always follows the hip. My arms and head are out to the side and my chest is straight (following my hips).

agile drum
#

body still sems to move a lot from horisontal head rotation for remote players

#

these two are straight for me

oak pendant
agile drum
#

ah was hoping imobilise would fix that

oak pendant
#

In general twisting against the hip at the center of the spine (base of ribcage) is pretty limited for most humans

#

at least compared with neck range of motion

latent knot
latent knot
oak pendant
uncut sedge
#

so this is when i lock in normally with head and hips locked. i'm only moving my head here, the rest of my body is perfectly still.

latent knot
#

The spine of your avatar is in the center of the body. Your real spine is in the back))) (chest pulls down 😆 )

oak pendant
#

This might help you understand the issue: https://twitter.com/Kung_VR/status/1619137610223607814

Kung (@Kung_VR)

@VRCSpooky Viewball is where you will be IRL relative to the avatar. Viewball far in front means avatar far behind. And reverse if the viewball is deep in the avatar's face. When you tilt your head (for example) down IRL things attached behind go up and things in front go down. (see image)

Twitter ·
uncut sedge
uncut sedge
#

so it is something to do with the viewball as well. vrcAevSlap

latent knot
#

Making a good skeleton avatar and weight paint is not easy..

devout current
#

the positon is fine lol

oak pendant
# uncut sedge I have noticed that if i lock into my avatar while looking down, the spine will ...

When you look up while calibrating it will raise up the avatar, so you're binding the lower body trackers with the avatar higher up relative to them, in other words the lower body trackers will be trying to push the avatar up once you lock in, which will bake in some compression to the spine, but that constant compression would cause other issues. It's best to figure out the relationship between your HMD and IRL neck pivot when compared to the avatar's viewball and headbone root

uncut sedge
#

yep, moving the view point forward seems to have fixed the issue quite a bit 😅

devout current
#

I love the new tracker occluded stuff btw, it's great just being able to use a blanket

primal valve
#

i still want IR transparent blankets

devout current
#

yeah xD

uncut sedge
#

time to reupload every single one of my avatars >.>

primal valve
#

also i can't tell if it's just in my head but the new IK feels slightly less responsive, but like... i can't tell when i try to move my legs really quick. i guess this is related to smoothing bit?

#

like it's something i would 100% not notice if i didn't already have so many hours in fbt lol

#

is there toggle for it or would i need to switch in and out of beta to a/b test?

devout current
#

just set the tracker motion prediction to something other than 0 if you don't like it lol

jade wyvern
#

I felt that way until looking at my irl legs with passthrough. it was more like prediction made my legs move faster in game than they really were irl, making the new behavior feel delayed, so I guess I'll get used to it eventually

warm jasper
#

If I'm not mistaken I think there was an unofficial way that did it that per avatar to improve tracking.

acoustic snow
#

i'd love to see an "advanced" menu that really lets you tweak shit, but until that's possible the provided options need to be as simple as possible for VRC's less technical users (and there's nothing wrong with being less technical)

warm jasper
#

While true, the fact that external ways did this in the past and were used by most the fbt community also shows this was heavily needed and utilized, I do agree with keeping it simple tho. An advanced ik tab has been requested for a really long time to adjust things like rigidity and twist. Just the current iteration might be too limiting for user experience if half the avatars are folding like pancakes around their middle. I'd almost opt for current neck failure point over what it's doing in some of these cases with lock all.

acoustic snow
#

like i said, i strongly agree. i also used said external ways, and i'd like to see the "advanced menu" or something as a middle ground.

oak pendant
#

(I could be misunderstanding folding with compression though)

frozen juniper
#

in the current IK beta I've seen avis work perfectly unlike non beta where it folds your spine over

warm jasper
#

Actually one of my main avatars did it. It's related to tracker positions im pretty sure, I have a shorter torso being more petite, and the spine seems to crunch in around the stomach when it didn't in the past before the beta. It is compression. Not actually folding.

oak pendant
#

Ah ok, yeah that's expected then. The failure mode for lock-both has been changed to compress the spine rather than extreme folding, so I was concerned there was a bug there

#

You might prefer lock head then, it's received a lot of improvements as well

warm jasper
#

I have 11 point tracking tho. I like the fluidity of lock all for dancing.

oak pendant
#

Ah, then that'll likely be best yeah. Though lock-head now has positional chest tacking support as well

warm jasper
#

Oh does it? I'll experiment with it. I still think a slider at some point to loosen/tighten constraints on the spine would be highly useful. That reminds me, I was happy to see that a slider for prediction was added for latancy. Tho the wording is a bit confusing. Shouldn't it be flipped? 100% be the new behavior and 0% be no filtering?

#

I.E. 0% be live behavior

oak pendant
#

Some info there

#

There never was filtering, so it'd be incorrect (even if intuitive)

devout current
#

a tooltip is badly needed here

oak pendant
#

Yeah, it exists but isn't set up through localization thing yet

#

Sets how much latency compensating motion prediction to use on body trackers. Only works for SteamVR trackers.

#

is what it'll be

warm jasper
#

Ah I see. Yeah definitly that one sentence you said is plenty I think.

"Percent of motion prediction in use"

#

Then maybe add higher values may increase latency

primal valve
devout current
#

it's both :p

warm jasper
#

I think the planned tool top might be too wordy and confusing tbh.

#

Latency compensation is already a mouthful for people who don't fully understand it.

final raven
#

Assuming the ik-beta branch will also be brought up to parity with the latest open-beta?

oak pendant
#

Probably better not to, to keep changes isolated

terse kestrel
#

FYI to IK testers as well as Kung-- I just added the <@&1136085996254003260> role, which you can add to yourself via the "Channels and Roles" section of Discord at the top of the channel stack:

image.png
devout current
terse kestrel
oak pendant
#

Thanks!

warm jasper
#

Oh nice added.

#

Assuming new updates will use those pings?

oak pendant
#

Yeah, I'll do that going forward

deft spruce
#

Awesome, thanks Tupper!

devout current
oak pendant
#

Yep, that's what I was thinking I'd do

deft spruce
#

Don’t forget to hit that “Publish” button so that subscribers get your message in their Discord servers ^^

lean zodiac
rotund vessel
lean zodiac
#

for me it like just disappears

final oasis
#

On Legacy IK doesnt work Lock hip, and Lock head. Doesnt matter what i chose, i still have like lock both.

devout current
#

With legacy you shouldn't even be able to choose?!

final oasis
#

Its hard to trace the problem, i found out, that i'm flying about 5cm. Then i checked all the settings, and i cant even remember how it was set up. I see its not working now.

devout current
#

As I said with legacy you shouldn't even have any of these options

final oasis
#

I really dont remember now. I see that my avatar after accepting calibration, avatar moves about 5cm above the ground, and it looks like it have lock both option.
I cant even check how it was on previous version, because vrchat doesnt allow it...

old mulch
#

they had the most extreme example which was useful

rotund vessel
#

Not sure if this was asked but the IK beta doesn't have Open Beta features and vice versa right? That means I have to switch builds back and forth?

short knot
final raven
warm jasper
#

oh i think i found a substantial bug related to the tracker locking issue.

#

the new IK seems to break on worlds without scaling enabled.

#

the trackers seem to shift all around with the occlusion bug.

digital grove
#

what's the occlusion bug

warm jasper
#

actually nvm <.< my trackers were just being dumb and not shutting off properly.

halcyon forge
#

loving the chest tracker improvements to lock-head 🙏

robust tangle
#

I have not been able to “block avatar globally” on the IK beta. Is this known or is it a setting I’ve done

#

The icon for it is disabled

#

Similarly, I’ve not been able to unblock things globally

mystic urchin
#

Have you tried clicking it?

devout current
#

That's also an issue on live IIRC

mystic urchin
#

afaik it looks disabled but it still works

devout current
#

At least the button being greyed out

#

yeah

#

I hate how unorganised the QM User Profile is btw

mystic urchin
#

just confirmed it works

#

just backwards

tiny token
#

can we refer to new ik as ik 2.1?

devout current
#

It would be more like 2.2

#

Since we already had the arm rework between the original release and now

tiny token
#

thats 2.0.1 vrcLaughing

robust tangle
#

but it's not ik-specifc bug so my bad

mystic urchin
lofty lily
#

any chance the tracking freeze could apply to controllers too, not just trackers? would be great for sleeping

devout current
#

(that's a different issue)

lofty lily
#

it is, but freezing the controller in place is one of the suggested "fixes" by users in the comments

devout current
#

kind of I guess?

lofty lily
#

I'm not sure if there is an actual canny specifically just for freezing controllers

devout current
#

That canny specifically is about controllers being treated as if they are disconnected if they lay still for a moment.
(Which was actually done on purpose cause Meta stopped telling VRChat if controllers are actually disconnected)

lofty lily
#

I know, I read the canny post. Might have focussed too much on the latest comment:

image.png
#

😅

#

but yeah, either way it would be nice if the freeze behaviour was consistent between devices. Controllers and trackers

hot fulcrum
#

Actually, this one be more techny.

image.png
hot fulcrum
lofty lily
#

read that too, but unrelated to what I was asking about x3

#

I'll remove the link..

hot fulcrum
#

ah, I got what you meant by

devout current
#

Anyway, I do think that being able to set controllers to remain in the same spot when turned off is a good idea

hot fulcrum
#

yeah, actually.
also prediction method used for tracker may works.

warped grotto
#

I dunno if this is just me but my knees seem to bend inward

#

like an ungodly amount more then it used to

#

while on beta

oak pendant
warped grotto
#

Last I checked it was at 0 but hmm

#

I dunno it might be an issue with me using my tundras on my feet?

#

and not like ankles?

oak pendant
#

I use them on my feet, and that's a supported position. The other thing I could think of is if you're calibrating while your avatar is scaled below default scale with the new avatar scaling feature, foot calibration can break (which affects knee angle too)

#

But seems most likely the knee angle slider might have an accidental value set, so that'd be the first thing I'd double check

devout current
#

The knee slider was kinda wonky for me yesterday

oak pendant
#

(I assume you don't use knee trackers)

oak pendant
devout current
#

Basically no matter if I've set it to plus or minus, the legs bent in the same direction

#

It fixed it self after moving the slider a bit

#

I haven't reported it before as I haven't done any testing yet

oak pendant
#

Hmm, I wonder if there's an issue with the menu rework causing settings to get set improperly. I feel like we'd hear more about it if that was the case though

#

I guess if you discover it's a repeatable issue, let me know / make a canny if you're able at that time

hot fulcrum
oak pendant
hot fulcrum
#

yeap

devout current
#

I hate these new selectors btw

#

Give me a drop down please xD

timber grove
#

it works just fine for me

#

But yeah I hear you

devout current
empty solar
#

Wait no one else tested shin tracking?

#

I do shins because my straps are not floor/carpet friendly

devout current
#

wdym?

oak pendant
#

Wearing foot trackers above the ankle is also supported

devout current
#

ahhh

oak pendant
#

It should work fine, but with the Tracker Motion Prediction option, one of the main reasons to do so would be reduced. There are still other reasons though like the one Smash-ter mentions

hot fulcrum
oak pendant
#

Possibly, though I need to be careful with trying to mess with controllers. The main focus of this ik beta is still for improving the spine behavior. Messing around with controllers, and any issue that could occur is much riskier and more severe than a FBT issue because it could prevent you from using the menus altogether.

#

Maybe separating out he hand IK behavior from the controller and menu behavior is one way to reduce that issue, which would be pretty nice, but I don't know if I'd be able to get to it in context of ik beta because it's kinda technically out of scope

devout current
#

time for another beta in 6 months xD

hot fulcrum
#

xd

devout current
hot fulcrum
#

(Personally thinking, Kung knows what's could be better so maybe person who got idea of how to avoid from vrc team be kung)

oak pendant
#

A change regarding controller disconnect behavior would probably just be part of regular patch and release cycle unless all IK beta issues are solved and I somehow still have time for that as well as part of this (kind of unlikely though). The main point of doing ik beta as we do is because it affects avatar behavior for everyone in a very subjective way on a wide variety of avatars, so giving a longer window for heads up, testing, and feedback is ideal.

#

Issues still remain with calibration and avatar scaling, as well as binding OSC trackers with SteamVR needing a 2nd try to get the binding people want.

hot fulcrum
#

yeah...

serene ermine
#

How would wearing knee trackers below the knee impact tracking?
I wear my knee trackers below the knee to use my calf muscles to prevent slipping.

#

Before ik rework I didn't see a difference before and after, now I see knees are a bit less responsive. Wondering if knee position is the reason

devout current
oak pendant
# devout current

Does the world you joined scale you down below default size while joining?

devout current
#

no idea

oak pendant
lean zodiac
#

No steamvr motion prediction?

oak pendant
#

Yep. Need to get the tooltip in with our localization stuff to show up properly, which I haven't done yet, but tooltip will be:

Sets how much latency compensating motion prediction to use on body trackers. Only works for SteamVR trackers.
lean zodiac
#

ah kk it was kinda confusing what it did

oak pendant
#

So higher values will predict more into the future and feel like less delay at the cost of more shaking due to inaccuracy in prediction.

lean zodiac
#

What value would you say is the best of both?

oak pendant
#

That really depends on the person. I like 0% because that represents closest possible sample to last "real" data from the tracker IMUs running at 250Hz

#

Anything above 0% starts to introduce "fabricated" data, but it'll become more severe the more you add. So if all you want is it to be a bit more snappy you can add a bit of prediction

final oasis
lean zodiac
#

thanks for the explanation

devout current
timber grove
#

was about to say that

devout current
#

the menu is probably just bugged

final oasis
#

So why they are locked? I see how avatar acts.
On build 1313 i didnt notice any IK issue

devout current
#

@oak pendant when using Legacy IK all the IK 2 options are still in the QM

#

Just tested it my self

oak pendant
#

Ah, ok yeah would be good for those not to appear probably when in legacy IK

devout current
#

yeah

final oasis
#

But still, legacy ik breaks always after calibration. It looks fine after changing the world.

tiny token
#

Is there a way to toggle between ik2 and beta-ik2 other than changing participation in the beta?

devout current
#

nope

oak pendant
#

It may be the case that at some point we start to depricate legacy IK though. I don't know if now is the time (probably not quite yet?) but if it starts to slow development to keep it around we'll eventually have to

final oasis
#

For me, it will be enough, if there will be no scaling for legacy ik or any other extra options. As long as it will work.

tiny token
#

Does anyone else here wear their hip tracker to the side? Like 10 or 2 o'clock?

final oasis
devout current
tiny token
#

I definitely prefer it over 12 o'clock due to occlusion. But beta-ik2 makes it feel weird, I can't really describe. I'd like to A/B test

oak pendant
# final oasis For me, it will be enough, if there will be no scaling for legacy ik or any othe...

At some point the legacy IK solving will be fully depricated and removed though, so it might be good to start getting used to the new system sooner rather than later, or if there's a specific reason why you're unable to use the new system provide feedback on that. Of course can't promise to implement everything but it'd be good to know why you can't switch over. As far as I know the only behavior in legacy IK that we don't and probably won't have is having the arms pull the torso in different directions

#

(But separate from that point, thanks for reporting bugs as you find them!)

tiny token
#

damn, people really still using ik1?

devout current
#

looks like it 😅

agile arrow
#

People would still be using SDK2 for new uploads if it was allowed

#

On 5.6.3

final oasis
oak pendant
#

Ah yeah, the elbow behavior in legacy FBT is different and is able to move upward more

final oasis
#

I think this is the only reason.
And dumb reason is, i have tracker on my back. I can't lie on my back. I can't lie on a side, because of the chest turns. and i cant lie on my stomach, because of my ribs hurts after few minutes XD
So i'm not typical FBT user.

warm jasper
#

why is it avatars reload when ever you press the quick menu? after switching from full/half body.

#

it tends to bug out sometimes and load an error bot at times. then you have to change avatars to fix it.

old mulch
oak pendant
# old mulch It looks like its pretty severe with the ik2 beta. What would be the cause for t...

This looks the same as on live to me, unfortunately it's probably not something I can address in the ik beta because it's blocked by requirements from our world creator support that Udon's GetRotation on the player object still provides the pointing direction of the head (or a viable alternative is made available). This really bothers me too and I've been pushing for the fix internally but yeah, that's the current status of it.

sullen bloom
urban pumice
#

being able to adjust avatar spine length would be really helpful

civic wagon
#

With chest tracker + lock head it feels like spine isnt bending enough it almost looks like theres just the hip and chest bone moving until a certain threshold and then spine will bend a slight amount, with chest tracker disabled the spine seems to bend throughout the motion i was doing, idk if theres any rig adjustments i could be doing to make spine be bending more. without chest tracker it seems like chest is the main thing bending still and spine only slight amount compared

crystal falcon
#

IK Beta is working great for me. I'm using lock both with the looking-down during calibration and 6point. Spine and neck aren't crooked like they used to be, very nice!

final raven
warm jasper
# urban pumice *being able to adjust avatar spine length would be really helpful*

I second this xD i have a shorter torso, some many avi's don't fit exactly right. also this is something i was just thinking about today. it wasn't an issue long ago with IK1.0 but was especially after updating to 2.0. it still happens in the beta now. Personally haven't tried with the lock hip as this post suggested since it wasn't too big of a deal to me.
https://www.reddit.com/r/VRchat/comments/xv70w6/fix_knee_bend_when_bending_down/

reddit
r/VRchat - fix knee bend when bending down?

3 votes and 10 comments so far on Reddit

urban pumice
#

i have tried both, and both have problems, especially when you are doing hip related activities

warm jasper
#

with 11 point tracking i'm usually in lock both mode at all times. i think my main complaint tho so far is spine rigidity and length needed vary pretty widely from avatar to avatar. but that has also always kinda been the case. i still think it would be nice to add those 2 options as sliders to the menu. I'm aware that clutter is a thing to worry about, but these seem important enough to address. even if hidden under an "advanced" drop down like the new chat box settings among other things.

robust tangle
#

If certain ratios look better with some settings it could be adjusted automatically instead of being user-facing, at least if there’s a consensus on what looks best for a given avatar

warm jasper
#

but why make a general pass when individual preferences are different? isn't VRChat about freedom of expression? there is absolutely no way to test what looks best on the hundreds of thousands of avatars in game. that is just the nature of being able to upload your own content to a platform like VRC. even just user body to avatar differences changes how things look drastically with tracking. a optional tweak i don't feel would negatively affect anything. especially since there are already similar IK settings like it. like arm ratio.

honestly ratios for spine, arm, and legs would be nice for a perfect fit drastically increasing immersion. and likely could easily replace the more finicky options like tracker dragging in the settings. too hard and tedious to eyeball rotation and position perfectly especially since they don't persist on calibration. I think the IK settings menu as a whole could probably be drastically reduced and simplified.

I kinda wonder if there is any data on the use of those settings.

empty root
#

has anybody noticed the weirdly high latency to a tracker moving in steamvr to the ik moving?

#

its like a solid 1/3 of a second

#

cant tell if its the tracking being overly smoothed from the anti jitter thing or if its cuz of mixed osc and tracker setup i have going on

devout current
empty root
#

can i turn it off

devout current
#

You can find it in:
Main Menu > Settings > Tracking & IK the slider is called Tracker Motion Prediction.
0% = No Prediction
100% = Full Prediction (similar to live)

empty root
#

its on 0

#

and theres still latency

devout current
#

As I said, 0% = no prediction which results in more accuracy but also higher latency. If you don't want that you need to set the predcition to 100%.

empty root
#

thats counterintuitive af

#

id expect 0% to be well, 0% of whatever makes it feel slow

devout current
#

Depends on how you are looking at it

#

but I can see where you are coming from

empty root
#

i see thing called smoothing with no description on 0% and i assume smoothing is off

devout current
#

It's not smoothing though

empty root
#

or estimation or whatever

devout current
#

100% does estimation / prediction, while 0% is just the raw tracking data :p

empty root
#

id expect 0 to be off, 100 to be on, make me feel like im a big flag on the moon

devout current
#

technically 0% is of since you are turning down the motion prediction 😅

empty root
#

what im saying is the slider should have a proper description

#

cause honestly i had no idea what it did

devout current
#

Yeah, the tooltip is currently missing

#

It will look like this once it gets added:

Sets how much latency compensating motion prediction to use on body trackers. Only works for SteamVR trackers.
empty root
#

i think specifying "does not work with osc trackers" or something is clearer

#

even tho it does appear to effect osc trackers

devout current
#

Technically speaking it can't even effect OSC Trackers.

#

As the way they send data to VRChat is completely different than what SteamVR does.

empty root
#

mayhaps its some funky shit going on with extrapolating real trackers into a single osc tracker

devout current
#

Btw @oak pendant is the Tracker Motion Prediction slider disabled / removed on Quest? If not you could probably do that since on Quest / Android the only way to get tracking data is through OSC.

#

suddenly a blanket!

image.png
keen zephyr
#

I really like “Freeze Trackers on Disconnect” option in the beta! I think it's a great solution to the problem rather than having them drift off!
I do have a concern about it though. In some situations, the only way I realized I lost tracking is by noticing the tracker fly off into space.
Would it be possible to implement something to alert a player to tracker drift? Maybe a hud element that appears when you lose tracking for example!
I really like the changes in the beta, you're doing a great job!

oak pendant
oak pendant
keen zephyr
narrow yew
#

could something like ovr toolkit implement that? it already has some low battery warnings i think

oak pendant
#

Ah, yes it could indeed! The same info is available to anything that's interfacing with SteamVR

narrow yew
#

i'll drop a suggestion there. the dev is very active and often implements suggestions from users

north lagoon
#

hai just wondering if this fix will be added to the ik beta at all?

image.png
oak pendant
dusk anvil
#

excellent

acoustic snow
acoustic snow
north lagoon
#

um @oak pendant just curious with the new ik would you say twist bones are no longer necesarry? or are they still worth setting up, I tried uploading a version without them and I honestly dont know if I saw a difference

oak pendant
north lagoon
#

hmmmmmm gotcha okay thankyou very much ^-^

#

btw amazing job on this IK update, this is genuinely one of the best updates in awhile I feel so so much more immersed it feels so good~

oak pendant
#

Thanks! I'm really glad to hear it's working well for you! apoi_cheer

north lagoon
#

one thing though is with the new ik I have found I can finally solve the legs bending down when I look down at my feet issue that has plague so many for such a long time, however I always have to increase my height by 2, calibrate then go back down by 2 again for it to be perfectly fixed, I was just curious if there was potentually anything that could be done so i'd no longer have to adjust the height each time?

oak pendant
#

I'm assuming you're using lock-head mode. The tradeoff that height change technique is adding is tightening the spine when you calibrate with a larger avatar and then adjust your height setting to wear it as smaller, which would introduce some sliding in the lower body joints when it goes beyond and returns to the binding points. If you want an easier way to quickly "bake in" a bit of tightness to the lower body binding points, you can experiment with how much you look up and down while calibrating (not legacy calibration). That's not really recommended... but that's what it'd do. If you don't mind the dynamic spine length though, you might wanna give Lock-Both a try, since that won't allow the hip to slide out of position (which is what causes the knees to bend)

north lagoon
#

hmmmmmm interesting i'll give that a shot thanks

warm jasper
# oak pendant I'm assuming you're using lock-head mode. The tradeoff that height change techni...

lock both actually doesn't help with this. neither does offsetting height by calibrating while looking up and down. I was actually just talking about this earlier. it was an issue that started with ik2.0 I haven't tried it yet myself but intended to tonight, but it was mentioned lock hip fixes that in this thread on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/VRchat/comments/xv70w6/fix_knee_bend_when_bending_down/

reddit
r/VRchat - fix knee bend when bending down?

4 votes and 10 comments so far on Reddit

oak pendant
#

I might be misunderstanding the association with "bending down" and knee bending. I assumed you meant what happens when in lock head looking downward you're tilting the HMD down and lowering the positioning of the tracking allowing the hip to sink slightly which allows the knees to bend slightly

#

This wouldn't be happening in lock-both mode because the hip doesn't move down unless the hip tracker does

#

Do you have any video example or the motion that's causing the knees to bend?

mystic basalt
#

is the ik beta going to be updated with todays patch

final raven
mystic basalt
#

is it gonna be today

#

i am having some of the issues that patch is addressing

oak pendant
#

I'm not sure. Still fighting with issues for scaled down avatars and calibration. I'd hoped to have that fixed when doing the next patch but it isn't quite yet.

mystic basalt
#

ah ok

#

im having significant fps lost vs last week in heavy worlds with high player count

#

x3d cpu and 4090

#

i think the patch might help but i am enjoying ik beta lol

oak pendant
#

I'm glad you're enjoying it! If not today then I think I'd want to at least get the p1 patch merged in tomorrow, if this calibration fix keeps taking too long

#

(continuing to work on it as we speak)

mystic basalt
#

u hav been working fast thank u :>

warm jasper
# oak pendant Do you have any video example or the motion that's causing the knees to bend?

I don't have a video sadly, its kinda hard for me to record in VR. basically when bending over at the waist like if you were going to touch the floor your legs will bend slightly instead of staying straight (while your irl legs are straight ofc). its been a thing for some time now, not specifically about the beta. I also think it specifically affects knee tracking if i'm not mistaken. i can experiment in a moment when i get on for more information.

oak pendant
#

It would be good to test in ik beta if possible, live has a bug with calibration that would affect something intricate like that. What you might also be noticing vs legacy IK is that legacy had inaccuracy around the binding point of the hip, which caused lots of issues with small offsets. It may just be the case that the offset was helping you previously

#

In order to successfully carry out that motion without any change in knee bend, you'd either need leeway introduced by some tightning offset, or extremely accurate positioning on the thigh bones on the avatar so the pivot matches IRL

warm jasper
#

yeah i've been exclusively using the IK beta so far it feels really nice. ^^ I intended to test in beta

oak pendant
#

Probably the best way to introduce some tightening leeway in your specific case, now that I understand it better, would be to very slightly bend your knees during calibration. That would give some extra room for them if the issue you're experiencing is slight when you're bending over

#

If it worked in legacy IK but doesn't in IK2 it's likely you only need a few cm because that's around the range of possible offset with the old legacy IK binding issues

warm jasper
#

i see i'll try that now, i was just about to log on. i'll report back anything i find ^^

oak pendant
#

So if the tracking is perfect this still has to happen, but if you've baked in some tightness to the legs for any various reason / with any various technique, it can be alleviated

#

probably a combination of trial and error with the thigh pivot points, and then binding in a very small amount of leeway by very slightly bending your knees (during calibration*) would be best in your situation. I don't think reintroducing the imperfect binding of legacy IK is a good idea.

warm jasper
# warm jasper but why make a general pass when individual preferences are different? isn't VRC...

Ah that makes sense, i mentioned something earlier i wonder if would be considered. its already available with wingspan. but could ratios be added for arms/legs/spine legnth? there are so many different avatars its impossible to test them all for perfect tracking. currently there is the grab and rotate trackes that can fix this kinda thing too. but its a bit frustrating to do it that way since you need to perfectly eyeball it. and it also resets on any kinda avatar reload making it ineffective for long use. i can easily see it replacing those. I kinda feel it would also alleviate a lot of the complaints i've seen with spine bend acting odd on a few avatars.

oak pendant
#

The height vs armspan toggle (and the ratio slider that's active in armspan mode) doesn't actually change any proportions on the avatar, it just allows you to pick what measurement is used to match it with your IRL body. So the concept wouldn't apply for something like leg/spine length

#

For for armspan mode the arm vs height ratio slider allow adjusting the relationship between the arms and height that's used to find an arm length to match the avatar based on the user input User Real Height setting

#

For measuring by height mode that doesn't do anything because there is no ratio, because we directly match the avatar's height to the user's User Real Height

#

The same concept doesn't really apply to sub-parts of an avatar like spine/legs etc

#

I think I do understand the request though, dynamically rescaling proportions of the avatar via settings of some kind. But it's unlike anything we're currently doing, and would likely add a similar amount of complexity that the recent scaling update did 😅

warm jasper
#

thats fair, likely well outside the scope of the beta. that also reminds me i need to try elbow tracking out. I haven't yet on beta.

empty root
oak pendant
warm jasper
#

out of curiosity were physbones affected by the scaling update? i can't tell if the changes are from the live or IK beta yet. i know they pushed some kinda fix for constraints and some things which isn't live for us yet.

#

i only recently noticed one of my avatars broke, seems to be due to gravity parameters? perhaps?i'll have to do more testing tomorrow

regal oasis
#

disabling the "tracker motion prediction" sounds like a great idea, but... why is their motion (looking like) smoothed out now? they lag behind the actual limbs significantly, and it's not because SteamVR doesn't know where the trackers are - their position in the overlay is accurate.
is SteamVR using some kind of motion prediction too?

devout current
#

The motion prediction isn't something VRChat invented, normally every SteamVR device has motion prediction applied to it.

#

Turning it down results in higher accuracy but sadly also in higher latency

hot agate
#

I am having a really weird issue on my avatar, and only this one. with lock both the avatar kinda acts like lock hip, but the avatar dynamics stuff follows what lock both would do, aka squish the spine. also the avatar hands get offset from where my actual hands are, the av dynamics debug matches my real pose. any ideas what could potentially cause this?

#

in the video I kinda squish myself to try to get the spine squish to apply to my avatar if it wasn't clear. and it works on the sample avatar of the model

devout current
#

Yeah I've noticed that on other Avatars as well

#

where it looks like the hands etc move away from the controller when the spine get's compressed

oak pendant
oak pendant
hot agate
devout current
oak pendant
oak pendant
hot agate
fair cove
#

I would love to see the ability to crudely adjust the length of the legs/leg bones in game. Obviously super long/short legged avatars would look jank, but i have many avatars that only need small leg length adjustments to fit perfectly. I think that would be cool 🙂

oak pendant
hot agate
#

don't be lazy like me, make actual root bones 😔

image.png
mystic urchin
#

😂

devout current
regal oasis
mystic basalt
#

im not going to ping but thank u kung for fast update

marsh elm
mystic basalt
#

very nice lol

20230804124040_1.jpg
dusk anvil
#

that popup is probably ancient by now

deft spruce
#

Yeah, they gotta update that eventually.

agile arrow
#

That popup is old enough to vote

small void
mystic urchin
hot fulcrum
#

joke

small void
#

Sorry i guess?

mystic urchin
tardy dune
#

Unrelated to ik beta specifically, but hopefully it can get fixed in the beta or something

#

I'm noticing repeated random crashes, no freezing or anything, just straight up poof as if I just closed VRChat type crashes.

#

It tends to happen without warning, or signs leading up to the crash and it's very quick.

#

I'm noticing this same crash happens on the IK beta. 🤔

#

Is it hardware specific, is it just me? Is it something wrong on my end? Are others having this issue/experience? These are questions I want to know the answers too before I create a canny.

hot fulcrum
#

no idea unless you check output log

tardy dune
#

I'll have a look at those when I get home

sullen bloom
regal oasis
mystic basalt
#

Not too often but it went from like zero crashes for months to a few this week

tiny token
#

Kung, any possibility of an in-game toggle for beta and non-beta IK2?

tardy dune
#

It should be removed for live tho

devout current
#

I'm not Kung but that is in my opinion very unlikely to happen, as it would cost exta dev time etc and could result in more issues.

elfin relic
#

So I have a technical question, just to clear something up.
Is OnAvatarChanged() intentionally run before IK is finalized/active?

Because if you wanted to measure the bone lengths of an avatar, to use as a hash, then with the new spine stretching this beta introduces, it wouldn't work at runtime anymore. However, the IK stretching, or IK in general, doesn't seem to be active when OnAvatarChanged() is triggered so it would be good to know if that was intentional, or if it needs to be planned around some day changing.

hot agate
hot agate
devout current
rustic zodiac
#

@oak pendant your a damn wizard man, after last update and tweaking things a bit I can now actually do full hiprolls and belly dancing in vr, this looks amazing, thank you so much ❤️

oak pendant
devout current
#

btw my bf tested the chest tracking in lock head and it looks great!

devout current
oak pendant
devout current
#

Sad but understandable

oak pendant
#

There would be potential workarounds but it would get real hacky real fast. "Stay where they are relative to your playspace" I think is a good way to have it behave by design

#

playspace moving is external to VRC and as far as we're concerned you've moved through your playspace when you do it

devout current
#

Yeah I know, that's also why I didn't really expect there to be a solution. Just wanted to ask anyway in case there would be ^^

mossy tendon
#

could be a suggestion to ovr advanced settings devs instead maybe, though i dont know where youd do that

oak pendant
#

Hehe worlds colliding! I'm also a dev on the OVRAS project, working on playspace movement and rotation. But I gotta keep a separation between that and my VRC work.

agile arrow
#

Settle in the middle with an OSC endpoint which moves the play space

elfin relic
devout current
elfin relic
#

Allows you to also physically walk through walls.

#

Without tracking freezing.

devout current
#

But how would it improve this situation?

#

As VRChat just puts the trackers down into those specific spots

elfin relic
#

It moves the trackers with you

devout current
#

hu, weird

elfin relic
#

Notably not the movement animations, but using the locomotion component in the animator that turns off your ability to move.

deft spruce
#

Typically, your Avatar will be visibly “frozen” in the last pose when your Head goes through a collider.

elfin relic
#

Which it doesn't when locomotion is turned off.

robust tangle
timber grove
#

if there is a better place to put this pls let me know

This is unrelated to any issues with the ik system. I noticed last night the social tab and groups tab weren't being updated to show new friends/group instances that started up. Restarting VRChat fixed it. Is this a problem in live or only in the IK beta?

split plinth
#

with the new Ik beta can we have a neck/chest balance slider for Head/hips lock? head/hip works amazing now with the neck not collapsing like it use too, but now the chest/spine feels alittle too squishy

on a side note, using just head lock, leaning forwards causes the hips to lift cause legs to straighten out eve when leaning forward to a crouch

#

eg pics of how the chest/spine squeeze (also head tilt causes chest to shift sideways due to neck stiffness)

VRChat_2023-08-06_03-55-00.400_3840x2160.png VRChat_2023-08-06_03-55-02.732_3840x2160.png
#

having a slider to fine tune that per avi would be amazing

rustic berry
#

@split plinth your viewpoint might be too far forward, causing the entire spine to be pulled up when you look down

split plinth
#

oh no thats when i lean forwards while lead down or slouching while stood

#

so when im dropping my head but keeping my spine straight irl it conresses the whole spine

devout current
# split plinth eg pics of how the chest/spine squeeze (also head tilt causes chest to shift si...

Hmm, isn't that kinda expected when using Lock Both?
Lock Both locks, as the name suggests, both the Head and Hip position / rotation, so it kinda has to do some squishing etc to achieve that.
You just use lock head if you don't like that. It would have the same effect as turning the squishing down, as the spine behaviour of lock both and lock head is pretty similar.
The biggest difference between them is that in lock head the spine wouldn't compress and instead the hip would just drift away from it's tracked position, which looks pretty okay for the most part.

#

btw idk what version of the Rex you are using, but in newer versions the weight painting of the chest isn't as great imo and can look a bit weird with lock both (or even just lock head), it looks fine on your avatar for the most part though

warm jasper
#

i think there may be a sync issue with the beta and live atm. noticed battle disc doesn't spawn abilities in the instance. anyone able to confirm? xcross discs r4

#

works fine for everyone else in the instance i'm the only one on beta

chilly juniper
#

Running into an issue where none of my avatars show up in mirrors locally after a bit in an instance on the ik2 branch. anyideas what i could do to fix/get more info?

marsh elm
#

something i noticed, if i hold my controller steady in place while holding an object spawned by the world, then shake my head left and right

#

The object shakes left/right too even if my hand is steady in place in game

#

If this a beta thing? I never noticed it before

devout current
#

Yeah that's normal

marsh elm
devout current
#

IIRC that's due to the same issue as the jittering on remote when turning your head

#

(not 100% sure though)

robust tangle
#

I'm noticing with a chest tracker that "Lock both" occationally lifts my feet off the ground when I lean forward but just "Lock hip" does not - something about spine compression is lifting my feet off the ground!

#

I'd assume lower body shouldn't change since hip is locked in either mode

devout current
#

The hip is technically allowed to move away from its tracked position in lock both if the stretch is already maxed out

#

Which is probably what is happening here

#

In lock hip that will never happen though as there the hip is always locked

nimble turtle
devout current
#

at least I think that they are related lol

mystic basalt
#

I am noticing the floating point issues from being too far from origin are way worse now I don't know if that is from the scaling update or if it is from the ik beta

#

Has anyone else seen this

empty solar
devout current
#

no idea

marsh elm
empty solar
#

what I'm asking is if people notice that stuttering when the world is at a high frame rate, or would it be noticable in low frame rate situations

elfin relic
lean zodiac
#

Think it depends how fast remote avatars move their head? idk

#

i believe this is the canny for it specifically

short knot
#

“Smh”

mystic basalt
#

I am not super knowledgeable but from my understanding of unity this is floating point errors

#

i've been testing with the world creator and can give more info if needed

hot fulcrum
#

float issue be something which also happen by multi reason.
*like not clean numbers. (ak like 1234.1234...., up to 3 degit each way, unity be ok...but more...they are become not)
*hierarchy structure (basically don't put too far/ smaller object under root object, make it root if it too far each other)

anyway....so many thing can think as cause.

mystic basalt
#

we tested it with and without ik beta

#

it was fine without

#

and they should not be happening at only a few hundred metres from origin

hot fulcrum
#

Yeah, few hundred metre be not something would expect.
(Avatar Scaling + IK beta is not yet spend that much time....so maybe float matter numeric be not yet clumped to account to exist together but yeah.....I believe will be better day by day.)

devout current
mystic basalt
#

it's not just me

devout current
#

Weird

#

It could be a FBT only thing but that would be really weird

#

Make sure your Avatar has the same scale when comparing though, as that can also make a big difference

#

(smaler Avatars will notice floating point errors quicker than bigger Avatars)

#

I have to say, It's always funny to look at floating point errors though xD

image.png
hot fulcrum
#

lol

devout current
hot fulcrum
mystic basalt
devout current
#

Are you in desktop or VR?

mystic basalt
#

maybe take the same steps and get in vr if u want to recreate

devout current
#

I guess it could be a VR only issue

#

Would be really werid

mystic basalt
#

I provided screenshots

#

maybe should not bury it in arguing and let the devs see it

devout current
hot fulcrum
#

clean

devout current
#

(ignore the "Live:" at the top left, I forgot to remove it)

hot fulcrum
#

xd

#

(It seems to be no matter of Live/Beta, some people got something weird at the moment. but at least it got fixed if you verify game files. then...maybe happen again after sometime...)

devout current
#

wdym?

hot fulcrum
# devout current wdym?

like some breakage matter, there maybe something but it got fixed by just run verify game files on steam.

mystic basalt
#

u can try to discredit the issue as much as u want but maybe make the conditions the same

devout current
#

I'm not trying to "discredit" anything lol

#

I'm just trying to reproduce your issue

mystic basalt
#

arent u a chat moderator

devout current
#

I'm a moderator for the Discord yes, that's about it. I don't have anything to do with VRChat it self.

hot fulcrum
devout current
#

I'm personal just really active when it comes to Open Beta etc and report a lot of issues.

mystic basalt
#

these arent extreme distances

#

distances are as small as 400m from origin

#

there is some interaction between scaling and the ik beta

#

we tested it with and without

devout current
hot fulcrum
#

yeap

devout current
#

Scaling your Avatar smaller will make the issues appear faster, as all the calcualtions etc have to be done on a smaller scale

#

(Your menu etc will also be smaller in world space)

mystic basalt
#

yes but i am having issues at even 1.3m

#

yes scaling to 5m tall makes the issues go away

#

but thats not an acceptable solution

devout current
#

There is no real solution to floating point errors sadly, unless Unity switches to 64bit floats soon 😅

mystic basalt
#

maybe there is a 3rd factor at play but the ik beta is the difference between them having or not having issues in the world

#

u can try this world

devout current
#

Sure

mystic basalt
#

i can provide distance from origin for all areas

#

from creator

devout current
mystic basalt
#

hpw tall is your avatar

devout current
#

(I've set my eye height to 1.27m in both cases)

mystic basalt
#

try around 1m

#

i wonder if it is affected by how long the game session is

#

the game does break more after a few hours

devout current
final raven
mystic basalt
#

the issue is mde worse with the ik beta

#

thats the whole point

devout current
#

it's not though?

#

At least not for me

final raven
mystic basalt
#

everything is worse than on live

#

we tried both

#

and i really dont think any level of these issues is acceptable at only a few hundred metres from origin

final raven
#

Uhhh, question. Do you usually happen to have force near clip distance enabled?

mystic basalt
#

nope

devout current
#

These are Unity limitations due to them using 32bit floats, that's totally expected to happen at that size & distance

mystic basalt
#

i know that causes issues

final raven
#

Ah nevermind then

mystic basalt
#

so it was disable

mystic basalt
#

i think a world creator should be able to utilize at least 1000m of space

#

because it was not an issue before scaling update

#

before scaling i had a small and normal version of my avatar

#

and I am now having issues on the ik beta on that smaller version

#

not just at micro scales

hot fulcrum
#

If other user can reproduced: kkk...time to file bug report.
If other user cannot reproduced: what is your issue? why it happen.

mystic basalt
#

he already has tho

devout current
#

I havent?

mystic basalt
#

his menus are starting to wiggle at a few hundred metres

hot fulcrum
#

I didn't see that on his post.

devout current
#

Live and IK behave the exact same

nimble turtle
#

Whatever it is, that isn't anywhere near as bad as the screenshot Kai's canny post

devout current
nimble turtle
#

Was that picture from the lobby of the world you linked kai?

devout current
#

hm?

nimble turtle
#

Where the text is badly distorted

mystic basalt
#

no that was in i think board game room

devout current
#

Yeah, those are just normal floating point precision issues

mystic basalt
#

about 700m

#

and they shoudlnt be hppenign so close to origin

devout current
mystic basalt
#

so we can now only use 500m from origin got it

#

official vrchat opinion

nimble turtle
#

The text looks fine in BlackRat's video

mystic basalt
#

@plucky sluice

devout current
# mystic basalt official vrchat opinion

As I said before, I don't actually work for VRChat 😅
These kinds of issues are normal unity behaviour and they will be more president at smaller sizes. Unless Unity switches to 64bit floats this will be kinda expected.
The world I tested before explains it quite nicely ^^
https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_b9f80349-74af-4840-8ce9-a1b783436590

Floating-point Precision Breakdown by Dvorakir

See what happens to your avatar as you go further and further from the center of the universe․

plucky sluice
devout current
mystic basalt
#

this wasn't an issue before scaling tho at the very least

#

I don't think any difficulty using menus at 1m eye height around 500m from origin is just not an issue

#

it was never this big of an issue before unless u were many km away

plucky sluice
#

I guess ill have to scale avatars if they are further than 500 m from origin xD

nimble turtle
mystic basalt
#

I was 0.9

nimble turtle
#

I do see some wiggle at 1m, but not to the point I can see text distortion

#

What gpu do you use?

mystic basalt
#

4090

nimble turtle
#

I'm on a 2070, shouldn't make much of a difference for this issue I don't think

#

Given both are nv

acoustic python
#

I wondered if there ever was a thought put into a "lock feet" mode?

Currently i am kind of always moving the hip a little higher after i lock FBT in, so that my legs will be properly stretched through in VR, even if i IRL slack off sliiightly. But because of this the the feet get pulled up a little bit from the ground. It would be cool if i could add a little "buffer" so that my knees bend only when i actually go down in my knees, without my feet elevating slightly above the ground :D

#

I mean mostly its perfectly fine anyways, even without raising the hip after calibrating, but sometimes it just bends the knees slightly even if i feel like im standing up straight. And it just looks so much better when the legs are properly stretched through

sullen bloom
#

Were you using the dynamic view distance toggle when testing? I've found that does tend to increase the amount of floating point wiggle even at standard heights

sullen bloom
warm jasper
#

also serious question. anyone else noticing desync in beta? certain games and stuff are not synching up with live making them unplayable. "playhouse escape" and "battle discs r4" are two i've noticed this in. live plays fine so its definitely not the world. I imagine there are a lot more worlds out there too. so far i'm the only one that is on beta among my friends. So it's hard to test for feed back.

Can anyone check these 2 worlds to verify its not just me?

  • In "Playhouse Escape" the gun doesn't reload properly after firing it. (caution this is a horror escape)
  • In "Battle Discs R4" none of the power ups spawn into the game. (this i noticed was renamed to Xross Disc)
terse kestrel
#

i'm quite familiar with them as I spent a ton of time in flying worlds >_>

#

but they've always been around and probably will continue to be until (as BlackRat said) Unity swaps to 64 bit precision for floats, but considering that Quest already has to run with half-precision anyways, it's unlikely to occur

golden yacht
#

Riddle me this, if you can now use full body once a controller has died, why can't you confirm calibration with a single controller?

devout current
#

You kinda can

#

You need to press on your space bar

timber grove
#

Tupper is a man of the skies

golden yacht
#

Why that way tho? I feel like that would mess up the position at which the trackers are set

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plus be even harder for those who might be trying to use fbt, but are missing one of the two limbs

devout current
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I'm not saying that is the ideal solution, obviously you just being able to use the Trigger on the one controller you have would be better.

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That's just currently the only way to do it. (Being able to calibrate using the space bar is not new btw)

golden yacht
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Oh yeah, I know you didn't mean it that way ^^ and oh?

devout current
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Technically you can even have FBT without any arms if you really want to xD

golden yacht
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Oh geez lol

acoustic python
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if you drag your hip slightly higher than what you calibrated, regardless of height or lock mode or avatar, or scale, your avatars feet will slightly float

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and if the hip is slightly lower than what you calibrated, the knees will bend

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i'd like this area of "feet are dead locked to the floor, and knees completely stretched through" to be slightly larger than 1cm height of the hip calibration

chrome socket
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I just want to ensure this is intended behaviour and isnt planned to change, since if it does itd break a udon system more and make finding a solution really annoyingly complicated

warm jasper
acoustic python
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interesting idea, haven't thought about this approach

warped grotto
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Could those camera changes be reverted on the ik2 as well?

devout current
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You would need to wait for the current open beta to go live

robust tangle
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Seeing weird behavior with locked trackers - after turning all my trackers off I was unable to properly “exit” fullbody even though my calibration button became a disabled sit/stand button. Disabling FBT via menu did not help and I was still stuck in my last sent pose. Had to relog to fix.

vital inlet
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when u want to go half body

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had a similiar case of the body points not unfreezing when toggling off fbt on live over a month ago

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many times

robust tangle
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I feel like that is undesirable behavior however - if fbt is disabled, the trackers should be totally ignored and body should revert to regular IK

vital inlet
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yep

vital inlet
sullen bloom
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I recall having similar issues on live a while back when trying to turn off fbt to show a friend something in half body so it's probably not a beta specific issue

warm jasper
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I had this happen to me too. Also used to happen when just starting vrchat iirc, ik is frozen like when in full body (I have locomotion off). But I think a fix for it was patched a few months ago.

robust tangle
tardy dune
full atlas
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10/10 open beta announcement post ||(are you ok do you need help aha)||

oak pendant
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Will try to get it updated some time today (today being Japan timezone Thursday)

hot fulcrum
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nice

fickle spear
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is there any chance that hands will be added to motion prediction?

hot fulcrum
fickle spear
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ohh, thanks for that @hot fulcrum

floral turret
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in VRchat how to disable animation for walking so I can not walk with full body tracking @clever thicket

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Or someone answers

hot fulcrum
floral turret
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And it used to work so idk what happened in the update @hot fulcrum

hot fulcrum
floral turret
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I did even restarted @hot fulcrum