ik-2

[oak pendant]

That's a doable thing, just on a list of lots of things, if someone else doesn't get to it I likely would

^

[digital grove]

Solved by having full body tracking also

[oak pendant]

Yeah, tbh in spirit of open communication, I didn't think it'd take quite this long for me to get a slot open to work on it

But on the other hand I'm happy that the other things I'm working on are slotted in. Those aren't announced yet. But if they're done before end of year you should be hearing about them soon 😉

[oak pendant]

The body counter-rotation issue isn't solved just by having FBT

[maiden rock]

🗒️

[oak pendant]

It's an issue related to the player's root being rotated with the head as would normally happen when you joystick turn (but you're doing a head-turn) even when you're not moving, and then any slight mismatch between the absolute position of the feet (amplified when they're further from center of rotation / head) resulting from the tweened full body pose, and the tweened player root causes a slight jiggle there

Having the player root just not turn would fix it, which is a doable thing in FBT (not so much in 3pt)

The issue there is just properly handling tweening when you do finally move and the player root needs to rotate once again

So it's just something that needs working through, but not actively on someone's plate at the moment

It bugs me too though and I'd like to do it if nobody else fixes, when I have time

Actually I should probably mark that Canny as "interested"

[narrow yew]

why is it that it doesn't seem to be the same for everyone though? i have couple of friends who jerk around a lot but then some others don't at all

[oak pendant]

If someone sets immobile via the animation state behavior, or if they open their main menu they'll also lock the player root in place

so you can prevent it by doing those things

otherwise, tweening could be affected by the network situation

[narrow yew]

oh, i have been doing that by pure chance then if you mean disabling the locomotion controller so you don't with joysticks? i at least almost always toggle that on when laying down so i don't move if i accidentally bump my joysticks

this thing, right?

[oak pendant]

yep, so if you have that toggled to "disable" when you lay down other people are likely seeing your legs and feet look stable even as you turn your head

[narrow yew]

great, thanks for the info. that works as a workaround at least until you guys have time to implement a proper fix

[oak pendant]

But it's very inconvenient as a workaround, so that should happen automatically if you're in FBT and not actively doing a joystick move, just also need to crack open the network tweening stuff too which makes it more than a 5-min fix

[maiden rock]

Video made but bloody hell I forgot to apply the RNNoise filter to the microphone, you'll get the raw mic

so far better results, the head tilts more now

I'll link it once the HD processing finishes

[digital grove]

Is it a video of you rapping

[maiden rock]

the classic rickroll

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oceLqdIclg

[oak pendant]

Cool, yeah looks like it helped. So now you're running in to the issue of if it's just at the threshold of needing to crunch the spine or not a small amount of length contraction can make a relatively big angle change, so the neck sometimes flops just a bit

Looks like you're using legacy mode so you can't do the look-down trick, but you should be able to get a similar result by space-dragging yourself up slightly when you calibrate

That'll also offset the relative position of your arms etc vs the trackers so you might have to assume a slightly different pose there IRL with your arms to align them again

[maiden rock]

👍

[oak pendant]

To see the effect you could try to space drag yourself so your IRL eyes are 3~4 cm higher than your avatar's eyes when you calibrate

in essence, looking down (non legacy) sinks the avatar relative to you when you calibrate, so in legacy mode you can raise yourself relative to the avatar for the same effect

[maiden rock]

yeah that makes sense

aka the more trackers I have the less anime girl I can be? :D

[oak pendant]

You can actually still be pretty non proportional and the IK should handle things like the arms and shoulders

it's just if you want them to line up with your body the same way they did before you were offsetting during calibration

you might have to lower your arms IRL a bit, including at the shoulders, so try to lower it as one thing, slumping the shoulders a bit and lowering your hands too

(while still in tpose)

(and for lurkers, this is brainstorming workarounds, this isn't like some new recommended official way)

I'm gonna have to go to sleep here pretty soon, but thanks for taking the time to capture the video with all the details testing from different angles etc

[maiden rock]

np anything I can to assist and provide more samples for this use case

[marsh elm]

its RAW

[oak pendant]

I'll be sure to want you to test if you're not busy at the time when new spine behavior is eventually in beta. Wouldn't want to miss your feedback on that before it goes to release 🙏

[maiden rock]

I'll be around for that

[digital grove]

legacy mode

[maiden rock]

yeah just never been a fan of my head tilt affecting my avatar's playspace position

especially as I use lock to hips

[fiery plinth]

I was excited to use the knee angle in lastnights patch to finally be able to sit on my knees again, but the ik seems to work perfectly at the default setting now so yay improvements

[timber grove]

What does the arms vs height ratio do in the IK settings?

[devout current]

Basically when you have your FBT Calibration Mode set to arm wingspan, the arm to height ratio will define at what multiplier your height is converted to the arm wingspan. (which is then used to define how the Avatar is scaled to your IRL body)

[timber grove]

👍

Thanks.

[devout current]

That's also why the slider does nothing if you have your FBT Calibration set to height based. There it just takes the height you have given to it and tries to match the Avatar to it.

[clever hawk]

Does anyone know if there is a way to disable a tracker in vrchat but keep it in steamvr
Im using a tracker on quest 2 to sync the playspaces, but vrchat keeps recognizing my headset track as a chest tracker

[rustic berry]

make sure you're using the Continuous calibration version of Space calibrator rather than just using the tracker as an override

there is an option within it to hide it from being used by other apps

[clever hawk]

Yeah Im using that version. Is the option in spacecalibrator?

[rustic berry]

yes

[clever hawk]

Hell yeah. Ive been using the continuous version for a couple weeks and its been great. Do you use it as well

I didnt think to look in spacecalibrator. Thank you

Saves me the headache of having a tracker in my face everytime I open a menu

[rustic berry]

I did use it briefly and it worked quite well

[timber grove]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feature-request-custom-value-for-wrist-and-knee-angle-slider

This would make a GREAT improvement on top of the already awesome angle adjusters.

[arctic shell]

https://github.com/SouljaVR/AutoImmobilizeOSC

For anyone who wants better looking full body tracking

[narrow yew]

unlucky, my left thumb stick touch detection is broken

[rustic berry]

same lmao

[raw wadi]

[marsh elm]

Deadzone that bitch and touch the stick i guess

But i don't understand the issue here, is the author implying that people see FBT users like the top gif then they look around?

[raw wadi]

it does that yea

[narrow yew]

oh i should have read the full docs

looks nice

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/network-jitter-with-ik also upvote this everyone so the issue actually gets fixed at some point

[arctic shell]

@rustic berry @narrow yew @raw wadi works with movement too, says that on the post

[arctic shell]

oh thanks i didnt scroll down this chat enough lol ty

[arctic shell]

correct. has always been an issue in vrc.

[oak pendant]

Thanks for setting this up! Another drawback you might want to list in your git readme is that if you turn 180 in playspace and then locomote, remote users will see a quick springing of the player root catching up to the new orientation while tweening. In local view it won't be visible that this happens. That's the main reason we haven't yet taken the time to do this natively. (Not that it can't be done, just that it's a few extra steps so more than a super quick fix)

But this is great because users are much more likely to accept that something like that happens when using a workaround like the one you've prepared here, than if a native implementation had that issue. So thanks for your efforts setting this up 🙏

[arctic shell]

Noted Kung, will get this updated in the read me 👍

[arctic shell]

You're welcome, I appreciate your appreciation!

[bronze nest]

Yo I need a admin pls there is a user named chibi_frogs something and they being mean and crashing severs pls help man

[digital grove]

#moderation-reports

there are no admins here

[digital grove]

also this is the IK2 channel wat

[rustic berry]

do we have an updated version of this?

[devout current]

It's still the same for the most part, you could add an upper chest bone though if you want.

[arctic shell]

is there any advantage/disadvantages to upper chest in vrc?

[rustic berry]

yes, it allows for better spine bending and more chest mobility if you have a chest tracker

[tall dagger]

Hello, im making an avatar for vrchat and i keep having issues with my avatars chest bulging upwards in fbt, if i im sitting on a couch and laying in an angle that is about 45 degrees

How should i lay out my head/neck/chest/spine bones to minimize odd behaviour?

[digital grove]

Wait what's special about 45 degrees

[devout current]

Also, are you in lock hip, head or both / all?

[tall dagger]

im usually in lock hip, but the same happens with lock head too, lock all just makes everything compress

[tall dagger]

i dont know why but the chest nudges upward when i lean back to about that angle

[rustic berry]

if your spine has too much curve in it, that could happen

also, make sure your User real height either matches your real height or is very close to it

[tall dagger]

okay, thanks, ill try to modify the spine

[rustic berry]

it should be almost perfectly straight

[raw wadi]

maybe not

[midnight mist]

Is there any way to play with fbt when i have only 1 controller (and 3 trackers of course)?

[raw wadi]

no

or maybe if you emulate a controller

you can calibrate with space bar I think

i made a canner some time ago

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/6-pt-fbt-but-with-one-controller

[silk crow]

im sorry but how does the arms vs hight ratio slider work?

[jade wyvern]

#ik-2 message

[devout current]

Oh hey that's me!

XD

[arctic shell]

Noted, thank you

[small void]

in fbt when i look down my avatars knees starts to bend in is there a fix for that?

[devout current]

Are you in lock head mode?

[small void]

yes

was wondering if theres a fix without having to use lock hip

[digital grove]

Probably an avatar that has your exact proportions I guess

Other than that, lock hip, or just bend the knee

[mighty crescent]

rreeee

[winged crescent]

i used to be able to use just 2 trackers for lower body tracking (just the legs) but now one automatically sets itself to hips

both active trackers are set to their respective position

[raw wadi]

Change the range in ik setting maybe

I couldn't have only the elbow since one was binding with the hip as well

[past token]

You can set a tracker to act as a controller. But it requires some setup (flashing the tracker with controller firmware etc). The beat saber community is the leading experts on it afaik because they make tracker sabers (saw like a whole tutorial on how to do it). Then you could use your phone with OwOTracker to temporarily replace one of your trackers. (It’s also possible that you could use OwO track as a controller? But I would ask in the OwOTracker or slime discord about that)

[zenith glacier]

Is there a way i could have the standing in desktop mode have less hip rotation when hip&feet are set to animation? Sort of trying to give my avatar a couple of desktop poses which are not "auto footstep" friendly, but rotating or better said stopping out of a strafe movement sort of has a biiiit to much rotation freedom

(To show what i mean)

[raw wadi]

No

You can delay the hip animation but it will create a little snap.

[zenith glacier]

guess i will live with a slight snap then xD

[silent mural]

alright, I'm going to need to ask since this is becoming an issue again:

Before, when IK 2.0 was being introduced,. FBT allowed me to calibrate just two trackers, one for each elbow, without having to wear my Hip Tracker, now it keeps trying to put one to the hip, even if my arms are WAY over my head/hip area. This is very frustrating. Anyone know how to deal with this? I just want to use my leg trackers for my arms right now, I do NOT need to be in 6 point right now and I know it was supposed to allow us to do this.

[marsh elm]

lower the calibration range in the options

[silent mural]

I did, it does not help, one keeps going straight to the hips.

[marsh elm]

then you havent lowered enough

unless you're fucking up the calibration, the elbow trackers should be way out of range of the waist if you T pose

[silent mural]

so if I lower them low enough, they don't get detected by the elbow area at all

I have them on my elbow, and if I raise them up, one just gets auto locked to the hips, I don't know what to tell you

[timber grove]

Where is your hip placement? I assume your model is relatively human scale.

[silent mural]

That would be around my waist? I managed to get it though

it was a hard to define sweet spot, but I got it

[oak pendant]

There's a built in added hip range to account for trackers being far from a center-point when they're somewhere on a belt around the waist, which means the hip zone can't get as small as the other zones

We should probably scale it so that the hip reacts to the slider a bit differently so you can get the hip zone to shrink more

[narrow yew]

i can't remember if i have the default calibration range atm but the range is crazy. i noticed when i forgot to turn on my hip tracker that if i look down just a little bit my feet tracker will try to bind to my hip

[digital grove]

Def not the default

So change it

[narrow yew]

what's the default then? mine is at 0.40m

[digital grove]

[narrow yew]

oh, i guess the button would have resetted the value but i already closed vr 🤔

[prisma meadow]

When neck fix

[devout current]

There is a reset button right next to it xD

[narrow yew]

that's what i said myself =) i think it's 0.40m anyway

the default

[minor rampart]

@oak pendant if you don't mind me asking you about the mocopi system---is it possible to utilize the wrist and head trackers elsewhere? All three of those are redundant for Quest and PCVR users---would it be possible to use them, for say, the feet, or knees?

I believe, for IMU solutions, you need 6 trackers to roughly act as the equivalent to 3 vive trackers (correct me if I'm wrong!) if you're going the standard 6-point solution.

[devout current]

Yeah that's what I was wondering as well, it would be nice if the wrist / hand trackers could be used for shoulders for example.

[digital grove]

Sony would have to implement it innit

[digital grove]

I suggest you request it from sony

[oak pendant]

The head tracker wouldn't be redundant with our current system because we don't send out the HMD's data for incorporation into an external pose solving model. That means the external pose solver is helped by having its own tracker for the head's orientation. The head from the external pose is aligned with your HMD's look direction in VRC to keep the tracking spaces in alignment.

But yeah as to the main point of your question, as testdostres mentioned, that would have to be a request to Sony to implement different configurations. It's still helpful to hear about it here though. It's good to have some "our users have asked for this" for the next time I talk with them.

[minor rampart]

yeah---it'd definitely be nice to have a configuration sold that's effectively equivalent to 3 vive trackers/6-point---and another configuration for the equivalent of 8 vive trackers/11-point.

Realize that you're not Sony---reason I asked is it seemed you guys had some contact with them.

IMU solutions are great for battery life and occlusionless, but the main issue I have with them at the moment is it just doesn't look very natural yet compared to vive's---mostly because you need a lot of IMU's, I believe to get that much positional data.

still exciting to see stuff like this come up---they're so small

[oak pendant]

Yeah we do. Sony has been great to work with. But yeah I also don't want to abuse the contact we have. I'm happy to hear about feedback from our users and batch it up to let them know about though. From personal experience with them their engineers would be very genuinely interested in feedback as mocopi becomes available. (Or even before, about impression on it)

On the topic of more and more high fidelity tracking points, one issue that might arise is limitation on simultaneous Bluetooth connections to a single smartphone

[minor rampart]

of course! I do hope they offer a more complete experience, to be sure; I'm definitely excited for there to be competition in the FBT space.

While the product isn't even out yet, some hallmarks of IMU tracking are immediately obvious; the feet are completely fixed; the legs behave like movable cylinders as opposed to a ball and socket joint that vive/tundra's behaves like....I do think you can get this behavior with IMUs, but you have to have one on the ankle and the foot.

yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[oak pendant]

iPhones and Xperia phones support a pretty high number. But many modern Android phones only support 7 simultaneous connections. That's enough for the 6 trackers in the mocopi set, so as far as I know most modern phones should be ok. But (I think) they only list Xperia and iPhone due to being confident in their Bluetooth compatibility.

[minor rampart]

Question for ya---if HMD position was exported to an app like this, would that negate the need for a head tracker? If so, do you guys plan on doing that in the future for future solutions to be crafted that don't need the head tracker?

Sorry for the 50,000 questions. Just--you're very approachable and this directly relates to your expertise---I tend to be an information sponge at times x3

[minor rampart]

makes sense

[maiden rock]

I'd buy an iPhone but I'm waiting for the usb c support

[minor rampart]

@maiden rock rumor is the highest end iPhone for next year will have USB-C

[maiden rock]

🙏

[oak pendant]

Most I can say there is that my experience with their hardware makes me confident that the motion of the character in their promo videos is not faked. (I saw at least one reply on twitter that thought it was fake)

So if you want a sense of the behavior you can look at the promo videos.

[minor rampart]

didn't think it was--it just looks like what IMU's usually do; no foot movement or rotation

[digital grove]

There is no foot tracking, correct

[oak pendant]

In theory a system that relies on IMUs could have that same data instead supplied by HMD tracking, which would negate the need for a head IMU, but unfortunately we don't currently have plans to send that data out.

[minor rampart]

bummer! Still, your work is a huge leap forward.

Especially for Quest users

[oak pendant]

With their current pose solving, their trackers are supposed to be attached just above the ankle either in contact with the skin or socks such that loose clothes don't shift them.

And thanks! I'm excited to see more and more people get the chance to try FBT!

[digital grove]

Next year kung will be personally sponsoring vive trackers for every vrchat user

[devout current]

I don't think VRChat pays him enough to do that xD

[oak pendant]

https://tenor.com/view/oprah-you-everyone-gif-11387812

[digital grove]

https://tenor.com/view/ok-oh-yes-yes-o-yeah-yes-no-yes-go-on-yea-yes-gif-24983806

[timber grove]

Let’s go more trackers!

[narrow yew]

so is the sony tracking going to look like this 3 slimevr example https://youtu.be/6F1bK-udyrw?t=5 ?

[robust tangle]

@oak pendant Thinking about mocopi + quest controllerless finger tracking. If it could help maintain the hands position when out of view of the finger tracking cone? Instead of dropping to the sides

[oak pendant]

Wrist position isn't part of the data we accept through OSC Trackers, but as we accept more and more kinds of data in the future that would be a particularly good use case for that

[oak pendant]

I'd vaguely say it behaves somewhere between 5~6 when compared to that video, at least from 3rd person view. Not sure on how embodiment would compare in first person.

[minor rampart]

@oak pendant so, if wrist position isn’t accepted….what do the two wrist trackers get used for within VRChat then?

[oak pendant]

For mocopi it would be for general pose completeness in their AI model I think. Even though for the most part the upper body will be controlled by the VR hardware. mocopi is a multi purpose solution that includes full body capture without having a headset and hands, like just running around outdoors. But the best way to integrate that into VRC was to let the vr system controllers handle the arms.

[minor rampart]

Hm.

That’s a bit unfortunate.

[marsh elm]

Would be nice if they let vrchat users repurpose wrist trackers for knees

[oak pendant]

mocopi is outputting virtual hip and feet trackers over OSC Trackers so it's equivalent to using 6pt tracking

[marsh elm]

Its IMU based, i cant figure out how the hell they handle knee bending

[oak pendant]

I've suggested this to them, but I can't speak for them if they will or won't implement that

[marsh elm]

Without 2x leg trackers

[minor rampart]

I’ll wait until I see more demo’s, but for the footage they published, it didn’t seem like there was foot rotation, sadly.

I’ve seen what slime VR does with a virtual hip and it’s generally pretty good. Bit wiggly, but decent.

[oak pendant]

IMUs capture acceleration too, so it will know when the foot is picked up, even without having a direct sensor on thigh rotation. But it requires a good AI model to also integrate all the data coming in in a way that corresponds accurately with the pose because simply integrating position from acceleration algorithmically will lead to exponential drift.

[devout current]

Well there is no foot tracker, just two ankle trackers.

[minor rampart]

Yeah. I know. It’s just that I figured if they’re making virtual feet trackers…I would have expected to see some rotation.

[devout current]

It assumes where the foot would be

But yeah, it would be nice if the hand / wrist trackers could also be used for the elbow or the knees.

[oak pendant]

Yeah it can't give high fidelity foot rotation against the shin like if you raise up your leg and just start rotating your foot, because there's no sensor there and nothing in the rest of the pose to tip off the AI that you're doing that.

[minor rampart]

Yeah. Kinda figured.

Would be nice if you could repurpose the wrist for knees, elbows, or feet, but…I’m guessing each of those would really mess with their model

Especially feet

[devout current]

I have to say for people who would want to use them for only FBT in VRChat they are a bit expensive. But considering the whole package it's okay I would say.

[minor rampart]

I mean.

If you’re starting with a quest

You’re going to pay around d $700

Just to get 2 lighthouses and 3 trackers.

[oak pendant]

Yeah I totally can't speak for them or their plans, but they seemed receptive at least to the suggestion of repurposing for thighs.

[minor rampart]

So the price doesn’t seem too bad TBH.

[oak pendant]

The pose solving is all software so there's always the possibility of updates for different modes etc maybe

[devout current]

I wonder how much it will drain the battery of the phone

[oak pendant]

Hmm, I suppose that would depend on the phone. For what it's worth my phone didn't seem to get hot when using it.

[minor rampart]

Alright—-an obvious question.

[devout current]

That's good to know

[minor rampart]

Are these going to be released in the US

Or EU?

And if they aren’t, would VRC consider a partnership to get them to more countries—-acting as a middleman, as it were.

[devout current]

IIRC for now they will only launch them in Japan

[oak pendant]

Again standard disclaimers, I don't speak for them etc etc, but I'm pretty sure they want to release outside of Japan later on, but the Japan release would come first.

[minor rampart]

Right.

Was going to say. Not releasing outside Japan would be mind boggling.

[devout current]

Well, releasing in multiple countries is a lot of work

[minor rampart]

NA seems to encompass the vast majority of VR users, with the western EU as a second place.

Sure

But it’s Sony

x3

[oak pendant]

I think it's really a multipurpose device, so it's not just for VR but also virtual content creators, like if you were a Vtuber you can now go on location and film something and take like a background plate for the video and then in post you can plop* avatars in

But all you need to go out and shoot an on-location Vtuber AR type video would just be the mocopi system and I guess whatever you wanna use to film the background plate

And who knows what other uses will emerge too, but easy mobile FBT is also a good one, just one of many

[devout current]

It's always good to have more competition ^^

[digital grove]

You should see the Convo we had about this in #full-body-tracking lmao

It was fun #full-body-tracking message

[oak pendant]

Haha I missed that when lurking earlier. That back and forth coulda been endless, because both you and Venom are correct.

Lack of thigh sensors is a challenge, that can be partially overcome by determining position from acceleration, which isn't a simple thing and would cause drift usually

[digital grove]

I tried doing that in university, the result was.... Not very good lmao. Although there was no gyroscope, but I could see how with better hardware and other information it could be improved

[marsh elm]

Yes very fun, i was about to strangle bloope and tesdostres

😂

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I think people's impression when they try it, who actually understand the limitations based on the sensor data available to it would be slightly impressed, while still being able to detect those limitations if they go out of their way trying to trick the AI.

On the other hand people who see 11pt tracking with vive/tundra and then think this is a drop in replacement for that, who don't quite understand the limitations of the sensors it has to work with might feel it wasn't what they expected

But yeah it's very impressive for what it does with the sensor data it has. Would be pretty cool though if they had another operation mode where wrists could become thighs for when you have VR controllers

[marsh elm]

Drop the head to the chest and the wrist trackers to the knees

Bam

Decent lower body kit

[fiery plinth]

if anything id want them for feet and shrug detectors

[marsh elm]

You cant really have shrug without having sensor on your shoulder

[oak pendant]

Head sensor is used for continuous yaw alignment of the OSC Trackers reference frame with VRCs spatial reference frame

[fiery plinth]

as a more auxiliary part to a normal 6pt setup

[marsh elm]

Hmm, slimes dont require a head sensor, i never looked into it

How do they align the tracker in a positional way?

[oak pendant]

But it can be done without, SlimeVR does very well without it. They make the assumption that the user is facing straight forward during IMU calibration and we implemented a feature due to their feedback that lets you assign the yaw offset at that moment

[marsh elm]

I see

Slimes just assume the user is taking one stance during calibration

[oak pendant]

So they don't do continuous yaw alignment but only once when they IMUs are recalibrated

But it's mostly good enough because if they IMUs are drifting, then the accuracy of the head look direction from the head sensor would be compromised anyway probably

[marsh elm]

Yeah

I was thinking how useful a head tracker would be once things drift

And well, if they manage to change functionality to focus more in VR they could start using the hmd as head/wrist trackers, for their IK internal model

But it aint anything we can do about it i guess

[oak pendant]

This part of our specification was implemented in response from request from SlimeVR:

[marsh elm]

And would require vrchat to submit tracking data back to the OSC app

Im sure the smart sony engineers can figure it out 😄

[oak pendant]

Yeah, they seemed receptive to suggestion, but I can't speak for them. If you want a sense, I think they seemed about as open to that suggestion as I probably seem (hopefully) when people bring feedback about VRC's* IK

[oak pendant]

And yeah, we most likely won't be sending tracking data out over OSC

Or at least don't currently plan to

Buuut /avatar/parameters/Upright exists 😉

[marsh elm]

[marsh elm]

Yeah, hopefully they start banking harder in VR

From the way you guys have worded how you've worked together and suggested some existing VR features for them

It makes me feel like they straight up didn't really consider VR at all lol

Like "oops, thats true, i guess our product also kinda works for those guys"

"Someone make it work" 😆

[oak pendant]

Oh I didn't intend to give that impression. They are considering VR for sure, but us VR users aren't used to VR products that are as multipurpose as this is I think

So it's intended for use outside of VR as well

[marsh elm]

No, no, not to mean that they ignored vr

I meant that it just never occurred to them until vrchat poked them about it lol

But yeah, i suppose something like that was always planned

Nice to hear they're open to suggestions though

[oak pendant]

They actually approached us, so yeah they really do care

[marsh elm]

Oh nice

[oak pendant]

Some of their team members that I met are actually recreational VRC users as well

But yeah, it's multipurpose, for Vtubers / content creators too

[marsh elm]

Hopefully the redundant wrists start pissing off these vrchat-playing devs and they start working on alternative sensor placements

[digital grove]

brah the hip sensor in the back

that's insane

[marsh elm]

whatz wrong with that

Besides pissing the user off when they lay down

[robust tangle]

I reallly want controllerless fullbody on natvie quest without my hands dropping to side when my headset can’t see them. Hope wrists-as-fallback is considered in the future!

[digital grove]

this precisely

[maiden rock]

The small of the back has always been one of the worst places for a tracker

Mostly because you can't get a stable placement with any kind of strap

[devout current]

Yup

[marsh elm]

I put my tracker on my back when i want zero wobble 😂

But i have a thick strap

[whole glacier]

The back is the best place to put a tracker for accuracy lol

That's literally were professional mocap solutions put it

[digital grove]

Optitrack has both front and back https://youtu.be/aK1cpr6ShPE

But it's 2 on each side

So that the cameras never miss them

[whole glacier]

Like you said
"So that the cameras never miss them"

[digital grove]

That is correct

Obviously you don't want the cameras to miss them

That's a professional mocap solution is my point

[acoustic python]

Soo... since we actually got some tweaks in the IK Settings now for wrist and knees... Could we potentially get a toggle for this? :3
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/putting-your-arms-up-is-a-bit-weird

Shouldn't be much effort to put in, and it'd be really appreciated :D

[winter iron]

Hey I have been having a problem where my vrchat hands laging behind my steam vr controllers by a large amount, this doesn't just seem like a vrchat thing but just wondering if anyone knows what is causing it? (Also sorry if this is the wrong channel, I don't know which one It should be under)

[digital grove]

if your fps are super slow then that might be the cause

[winter iron]

im running 60 fps average in vrc

so I don't think that is the issue

[digital grove]

Are you using ovr smoothing plugin or whatever it's name is

[harsh lagoon]

are you using an oculus through steam VR? i remember hearing some people having an issue with rift S rarely could be similar?

[winter iron]

I’m not using any plugins and I use index controllers

[harsh lagoon]

oh heck hmmm

[winter iron]

I’m starting to think it maybe is a firmware issue

[harsh lagoon]

does it happen in steam vr home too?

[winter iron]

Haven’t tried the home but every vr game has the issue just vrchat is the worst for it

[harsh lagoon]

I'd definitely say its probably worth to try reinstalling steam VR, have you restarted your pc too?

[winter iron]

Yeah I have tried all the basic stuff I can do but it still is happened

[winter iron]

Can you tell me the oculus fix? It seems to be the exact same issue.

[harsh lagoon]

oh well for them it was reinstalling oculus drivers

so i'm not sure if it'll work

[winter iron]

Well that does line up with what I think the issue is so I’ll see if I can do an equivalent with valve hardware

[gilded rivet]

For the purposes of making an avatar with correct proportions, what is the game using to determine height exactly? ground to head bone / ground to view point / something else?
Then in addition to that, what is being measured to determine the "wingspan"? wrist root/tip of fingers and from what point?

[hot vessel]

What is needed to have Quest Pro eye and facial tracking work? Any special avatars? OSC? Does it work with AirLink?

[rustic berry]

yes, yes, yes

[hot vessel]

Do you have any links on how to set it up?

[rustic berry]

1: avatars need to have the required blendshapes aswell as the logic in their FX controller to drive said blendshapes.
2: you need the VRCFT application (for quest pro I think it's a specific build) running to get the FT/ET data and send the values to VRChat via OSC.
3: you have to use either a custom build of ALXR, or you can use Airlink and enable the options in the developer menu to forward the ET/FT data to the PC

https://github.com/benaclejames/VRCFaceTracking

the wiki should have basically all the info for avatars and the setup

for Quest pro specifics, go to their discord

before trying to set up your own avatar, make sure everything else works using a public avatar from the Jerry's mod world

[hot vessel]

Yikes, it isn't very straightforward then

[rustic berry]

no, there is no official support for face tracking. it all has to be done through community made software and packages and sent to VRC using OSC

[hot vessel]

Makes sense

[rustic berry]

if your avatar doesn't already have the required blendshapes, you'll either need to make them or pay someone to do it

if your avatar is a common base, there is a channel in the VRCFT discord for avatar bases that have had FT blendshapes made for them

@hot vessel the VRCFT discord link is at the top of the github readme page btw

[olive tulip]

Hello, everyone!

VRC does not see the eighth tracker, tell me what can be done about it?

In SteamVR all trackers are displayed correctly
Attached is a log + video

[devout current]

I feel like your knee trackers are in a weird spot btw xD

[rustic berry]

yeaa that's a little odd

the knee trackers should be on the upper leg, preferably closer to the knee

[olive tulip]

They're raised higher so they don't interfere with me dancing on the pole

[rustic berry]

check what tracker role is assigned to it in steamvr

ensure it's not "held in hand" or anything

and also, if you've ever used OVR Space calibrator, specifically the Continuous calibration version, it has a button to hide the tracker from other apps

[olive tulip]

I have a vive pro eye HMD

But for the sake of interest I just put the OVR Space calibrator
There's another space and a "tracker"
You said through this program you can somehow hide trackers?

LOL

Just installing this program solved my problem xD
Most likely because of activateMultipleDrivers: true

THX!

[rustic berry]

lmao interesting

not the expected results but if it works it works ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[narrow yew]

im pretty sure that that is exactly what happens when you have more than 16 devices in steamvr. your tracker will track in steamvr environment but will be stuck on the floor in vrchat. but clearly there are only 16 things in your steamvr panel so i dunno

[lethal bridge]

For some reason, VRChat only sees the first 15 devices (a quirk I’ve exploited)
With your 5 base stations that kind of puts you right over. If you leave a base station off or out of sight completely while turning on your controllers and trackers, you’ll avoid this problem

(But also, why do you have 5 base stations)

[marsh elm]

(yes, why)
(also i thought the limit was 16 devices?)

[lethal bridge]

Yeah, it should be 16 but in practice it’s 15 🤷

[olive tulip]

-_-

[rustic berry]

any given SteamVR tracked device can only use up to 4 base stations at a time. I get that there's time where one will be occluded and there would still be 4 in view, but even if you "only" had 4, there would still be 3 in view. have you tried only using 4?

[lethal bridge]

I mean if that’s going to be your argument why not 6 or 7

[olive tulip]

Yes, but the tracking was sometimes lost
Buying the 5th station solved the problem completely

Remember that pole is a reflective surface

[mild nimbus]

because the handoff system for setups with more than 4 Base Stations is built around multi-room type setups

I've run both 5 and 6 Base Stations setup and in my specific base it was a disaster with my entire playspace being flipped on a 90 degree angle

but again this is my personal experience and is heavily dependent on your room's configuration and other factors such as a pole

[rustic berry]

where were your 4 bases mounted? apparently, putting 2 in opposite corners near the ceiling and 2 in the other corners near the floor works quite well too

[olive tulip]

At the top in 4 opposite corners
The fifth now stands at the bottom

[lethal bridge]

That would explain it lol

[rustic berry]

yea, so 2 near the ceiling and 2 near the floor should be perfect then

and then you wouldn't have the max device limit issue

put 5th one in kitchen so you can walk to the fridge kekw

[olive tulip]

xD

I'll try to move one of the base stations down during the day

[marsh elm]

finally, the beer station

[devout current]

There would still be an offset

[rustic berry]

there's ways

[timber grove]

How do you get the ice in your pfp?

[rustic berry]

you can use a vive tracker on the pole and use OSC to sync its position, but that will be quite jittery. you could in theory create a system that uses it to figure out the position of it initially, and then locks in place and uses a world constraint.

you could also use the Synced world constraint prefab to make sure it's synced to late joiners

alternatively, you could skip the tracker part and just align it manually at first, then locking it to the world and use the synced world constraint

[rustic berry]

I'm just too cool

[timber grove]

[rustic berry]

kek

ideally you'd probably just grab the pole and align the one in VRC using your hand

position constrain the X and Z position of the pole to an empty target on the hand

the vertical offset could be determined by the floor

the method I described would work fine unless you accidentally hit your joystick and move

so then perhaps a tracker would be best in that case

[devout current]

By shoving 10 bucks a month into discord xD

[timber grove]

I assumed it was with nitro.

[devout current]

It is

[timber grove]

I would get VRC+ before nitro.

[devout current]

That's the right thing to do!

Maybe they can afford to hire me for QA then xD

[timber grove]

hehe

Send in a job application!

You would do amazing.

[devout current]

I will once they are looking for QA people again

[timber grove]

Wonder if you would still play VRChat if you get hired.

[digital grove]

what if I told you... you can have both

https://tenor.com/view/what-if-i-told-you-morpheus-matrix-gif-11333821

[timber grove]

No way

I wanna save cash.

[little quest]

Does anyone know how to fix the neck bend when you are in fullbody and you are tracking your head and hip?

[raw wadi]

not happening. but you can look down a little when calibrating

[coral cairn]

wouldn't that have the same effect as raising the viewpoint?

[raw wadi]

Try it and come back here to give us a report.

Post a canny as well.

But those hack might break in the future.

[drowsy locust]

how do i download this?

theres no betas on steam for me

[digital grove]

It's not a beta

[drowsy locust]

oh

[digital grove]

It's part of the game normally

[drowsy locust]

how do i use just 2 trackers then for fbt

cause i heard it had it

[digital grove]

Just use them

Should work

[drowsy locust]

it didnt work for me

[digital grove]

Gonna be a bit weird because it's only two tho

[drowsy locust]

for me it still needs a hip tracker

[digital grove]

What makes you say that

[drowsy locust]

because i tried it and it didnt work with just 2 and when i put a fake hip tracker then it worked but the fake hip tracker sucks so i cant use it

[rustic berry]

yea, hip is a must for any kind of "good" tracking. only feet will still work, but looks very strange

if your foot tracker is auto binding to the hip, try reducing the calibration range in the settings

[drowsy locust]

i turned my vive wands into vive trackers for feet tracking and it works really well but is there any way at all to turn a valve index controller into a vive tracker for a hip tracker i tried to but the config file is different from the vive wands and i tried to do it but it didnt work and i cant find any videos at all of anyone trying to do it

[rustic berry]

do you have more than 2 index controllers? and how would you pair it?

[pliant quarry]

what should a newcomer to fullbody must know aka me

[woven fable]

I have a hip tracker, chest tracker and two feet trackers, but VRC's IK seems to be locking the forward/backward pitch of my chest bone. How do I turn that off?

It looks really weird trying to sit or lay down and attempting to pitch my chest tracker forward or backward during calibration doesn't fix it. It's like the game is completely ignoring one axis of rotation.

It happens on all avatars and changing the head/hip/all lock doesn't fix it either.

[red mica]

Hellooooo, if anyone can help me fix my problem that would be great. I'm having this problem with the htc vive 2 trackers and how they are repositioning themselves when i turn around to face my 2nd base station. In the professional drawing i did, the left stick figure shows where the trackers are positioned facing my default direction and the right shows me facing my 2nd base station. You can see a change in were the trackers are position, anyway to fix this?

[digital grove]

Maybe you need to recalibrate your playspace

[marsh elm]

i'll guess you have a quest 2

and didnt calibrate properly

[red mica]

Please elaborate

I setup my playspace and calibrate before playing.

[red mica]

When i calibrate, do both basestations have to be visible to the tracker?

[kindred vault]

That would certainly be ideal

[naive karma]

This isn't always a third party playspace calibration issue, this is actually a problem with lighthouse tracking in general, especially with the original vive base stations, though even with index/vive pro base stations it can happen, and yes it does affect controllers annoyingly enough, if I'm not mistaken it's caused by the base stations being slightly incorrect with their positioning relative to eachother, which they re-calibrate their positions relative to eachother every time steamVR is started, so one potential cause is the base stations moving slightly during play (but not enough for them to shut off from it), another could be interference causing the base stations to see eachother in slightly different positions from where they actually are.

This is if the desync between trackers is relative to which base station you're facing and it sometimes snaps when turning towards a specific base station, if this doesn't sound like your issue it could very well be playspace calibration being playspace calibration, or who knows maybe it's both and the playspace calibration is making it worse.

[flat sparrow]

ok please for the love of god. i'm literally touching my toes here and everything was fine before the new menu dropped. since then everything is fucked and everytime i bend over and touch my toes it looks like im white girl twerking. before the update everything was fine. idk anymore how to fix it, this occurs with every avatar i have that all of them got different rigging etc. even with the official vrc ones it does that. pls someone help i have no motivation to play vrc like that

this is in fullbody btw

index with vive trackers

[harsh lagoon]

did you try changing the tracking measurment method in the quick menu? the one where you select whether you're measured by your armspan or your head to toes? as well as make sure your height is set to your proper IRL height?

this looks like your measurement method is set to your armspan right now since you're not able to reach legs, given that avatar has a bit of a long leg

[flat sparrow]

this one is head to toes, with armspan it gets worse and i even used the measurement system from vrc

[harsh lagoon]

hmmm heck i'm not too sure then, i don't personally have fbt so usually that fixes things for me

[next walrus]

have you tried the different locked modes? like lock-head, lock-hips, etc.

[flat sparrow]

yes, it didnt fix the issuue

with all locked my avatar goes full spasm mode

[timber grove]

Check your height again. Set it to your actual height.

Also check your SteamVR or OVR Advanced Settings, something might be causing unwanted behavior like this. Also you can adjust the arms vs height ratio for your avatars in the big menu under "tracking and IK" in the settings cog wheel.

[flat sparrow]

did that too, nothing changed

[flat sparrow]

did that too, nothing changed

[timber grove]

I would also check your headset room setup again.

[marsh elm]

You using hip lock here?

[flat sparrow]

i think so

but tried with all of the options

[flat sparrow]

like it doesnt matter what im putting in the settings and it doesnt help

[jovial bay]

Its caused by different proportions to your IRL limbs, you can try using lock hip mode, but keep in mind it will move your head above your view point to compensate. Using lock both will only work properly if you got very consistent proportions.

I highly recommend getting measurements done if your to get a custom avatar, or want to adjust one you already bought. Getting it exact is tough though, and even with 11 point tracking, and my own scratch avatar, getting the exact proportions is a quite finnicky.

Proportionally there is an addon for Blender, you can do it yourself. Just keep in mind, on import to your Unity, you will need to copy many things over, which some tools will help with that too. I am unsure if there is any tutorials on making edits. https://github.com/triazo/immersive_scaler < This is the tool if you want to try it yourself. Make a backup of your project and export the FBX out, and you will be fine to play around as much as you like.

No problem.

Generally I have noticed that is not as much of an issue, I like to wear mine lower too to avoid to much rotation when laying down.

Mostly its just your height settings, and how your calibrating, in the meantime, try not to fully stand straight and do a more neutral pose, as long as your height is correct, your legs shouldn't lock when standing normally, but they will still bend a lot.

[raw wadi]

But you want hip rotation or the neck will do it

[jovial bay]

Fascinating, I got to test that out, I didnt consider if that was why the neck would clinch sometimes.

[jovial bay]

Sadly that's a by product of lock hip mode, I am unsure why it happens, someone else may know.

Lock both requires good proportions otherwise it will crunch in all the wrong areas. I personally use lock head because I got my avatar to mostly good measurements, I can use lock both as well, but not while sitting down.

I believe it's completely local.

[zenith glacier]

If i remember correctly its visible remote as well, just not that much.

If memory servers right, it has something to do with where your "origin" is when you begin moving using controllers. In hip lock your tracking rightfully sees its origin in your hip, while controller based movements have said "origin" more towards your head. You basically see that snapping a lot more if you have a bigger disalignment with your head in hip lock.

I suffer for example a bit more with that, since i usually use avatars with different heel heights, so I am running a sort of "compatibility " solution with my setup (meaning real height is set to slightly smaller, dont want to recalibrate and readjust values for each avi), increasing that effect. No issues as soon as i switch over to head lock

[red mica]

So I've setup mix reality with Quest 2, I have Quest 2 headset connected to pc wirelessly through virtual desktop, i got 2 2.0 basestations and 3 2.0 trackers, and 2 index controllers, and 2 USB VIVE dongles. I setup everything correctly from my knowledge, everything is working perfectly but 1 thing, every now and then either my left or right index controller would suddenly freeze in a position, when its frozen in game i tabbed into my steamvr home and see if it's tracking there, and it is, it only freezes in vrchat, i think try and use the buttons on that controller however it doesnt work either. I've never had a problem where both index controllers freeze at once, it only happens to my right one, in order for it to home back i either wait a really long time or restart steamvr completely.

[green walrus]

Kung, would it be possible to have value adjust for the chest,neck and spine limit/ bending priority value? Even the pure amature itself is almost. 1:1 still wont get a good result on the neck bend or leg bend problem

[green walrus]

Also one point is that even with chest tracker it still not preventing the neck ik going for gamer hunch

[oak pendant]

Ideally we wouldn't need manual adjustment, but if there were to be manual adjustment in the menu that would have to come after the second rework to spine solving which should be coming up pretty soon. I had OSC Trackers on my plate before that so spine rework had been pushed back a bit. In any case, addressing the problems that you're mentioning would go in the order of lock-all spine rework (adding stomach area compression), making lock-head spine bend more appealing (less pulled straight), and then seeing what pain points remain that may or may not need manual adjustment via the menu.

For now lock hip is most likely to give an appealing looking result, which is why it's the default

If you want to use lock-all you can try the trick of looking down while calibrating (not legacy calibration) which will reallocate spine compression away from the neck to the legs and feet.

[rancid glen]

So Kung, now that i have full body i finally got to dive deep into the differences. Something i've always been eyeballing closely is the differences in IK while moving. Generally speaking Full Body always had much more appealing IK while moving (hips have more impact and are allowed to move up and down slightly compared to half body which is just your hip in rails). But since IK2 i'm quite dissatisfied with how the default running animations look, they are kind of a downgrade to the legacy IK ones.

The problem seems to be compared to legacy IK hip and head movement is severly nerfed, so unlike legacy IK you won't bend all the way forward and essentially have the baseline animations running with your hand tracking haphazardly overwriting their transforms. Due to the lesser impact though my avatar always starts hovering while running because the running animation pulls the hips back bending the avatar forward but expects to lower the hip to come back onto the floor, which is not happening in IK2, the head completely and fully overwrites the head position while running at all times, regardless of lock mode. This seems kinda unintentional, considering that the lock modes are designed to allow or disallow drift depending on the selected mode but don't allow any drift of the head even if i choose hip lock, whereas the hip will always drift.

I'd like to see the lock mode actually having an effect on this, from what i can tell initially that was the case, choosing to lock both would result in full body essentially getting half-body movement tracking where the hip stays in place, thus straightening the body stature and resulting in the same look as half body has. Even better yet an option to change the magnitude of hip drift during movement would be nice.

[oak pendant]

Yeah, rather than IK actually the issue here is the default animations for the locomotion layer. 3pt respected the animator's tracking control state behaviors (setting hip to tracking or animation) while legacy FBT IK didn't and had the hip animation pull the head around. During the IK beta for IK2, this went through a couple of iterations, and ultimately landed on respecting the animator tracking control behavior (the two reasons were that 1, that's the logical conclusion and 2, when hip animation can pull the body, the hands can lose alignment while running)

The issue now is less one of IK behavior and more one of if the default locomotion animations are desirable or not. People can make their own custom locomotion animator controller for their avatar, and the tracking state behaviors will now be respected properly, so if you want to get that head-bob back you could either make your own or use a community created locomotion animator controller.

I kind of agree that the headbob looks better especially from a third person view, but redoing the animation sets was outside the scope of the ik rework

If the lock mode for spine behavior had an effect on the tracking control state of the locomotion animator, then custom locomotion layers would lose that control. But yeah, I think the issue is less one of how moving overrides the animator's control over IK and more of if the default locomotion animator is what we want or not.

[zenith glacier]

@oak pendant little outside question. Would it be possible to include something like a "blend duration" to the pose space feature? Currently you can enter or exit it with an delay, but the moment the pose spacing actually happens it snaps within a frame. Being able to blend it with something like 0.2 secs (just to name a number) could potentially help a lot

[rancid glen]

I made my own locomotion layer but i fail to see how i would have any control over this.

As i said, currently the animation will pull back the hips (which is fine) this is what i want, but because it is not allowed to pull down the head and is not allowed to stretch the body it will have to decide what is more important, in IK2 it is ALWAYS your head, your head will always 100% match your tracked position regardless of your settings or animator and its used animations. I haven't experimented with turning the tracking partly off in the locomotion layer while in FBT (i did some extensive testing while i was in 3pt) but i assume it will have similarly bad results as it did with 3pt and will absolutely not achieve what i want. Turning off head tracking will (if anything) prevent head rotation to take any effect, making it look super stiff (but would allow the head to be pulled down for the animation, thus bringing the feet back to the ground while running) but i do not want to lose the head rotation. Also turning tracking on/off has had incredibly weird effects on how the IK handles it, sometimes getting the IK stuck, rotating the body weirdly (such as while strafing like the legacy IK does), flipping the hips (again like legacy does) and other weird shenanigans that seem to boil down to "it is accumulating rotation".

What i want is the running animation to actually respect my locking settings (in addition to tracking) or at the very least actually and fully respect my tracking options. However you want to put it, currently while running (or using any animation while moving that requires your head to be lowered to keep your feet on the ground) simply do not work as intended due to either the locking option not being respected (e.g the hip allowing to drift freely despite locking the hip and/or my head never drifting despite not being in head lock mode) or the tracking options not being respected (once again the hip drifting despite the hip being tracked)

An alternative to that would be a simple option that allows me to enable my head from drifting away from my viewpoint during running (like legacy did), essentially allowing the animation to have more effect on our running stance. (but again that is technically what the locking options are for)

[oak pendant]

An issue with blending pose space would be possibly causing motion sickness. It's possible there could be a more complex solution that has the avatar separate from the user though.

[oak pendant]

Ah, then it might not be working as intended. It's possible that the latest changes that fix index controller users' root motion animations has caused an issue here or something. The intended behavior is that if hip is set to animation, and head is set to tracking, that the head's rotation will be tracked, but the hip can drag the head out of position. Are you sure this isn't the case?

I've tested that it works on some Gogo-loco avatars previously but haven't checked recently. I can test that again myself shortly as I'm doing some other work that has me in and out of vr testing

[zenith glacier]

was more thinking about desktop uses here, but you have a point

[oak pendant]

@rancid glen I was able to test and confirm that setting hip to animation via the tracking control state behavior appears to still allow your hip's position within the animation to drag your head around allowing for head-bob (works in all IK lock modes)

[rancid glen]

Alright, i'll see if that works then, previously i had other animation issues if i used animation for hips (like the mentioned hip rotation accumulation resulting in over-rotation). I'll see how it goes.

It is still weird though (and kinda badly documented) that in order for the head to be dragged around, hips need to be set to animation

Something else i noticed (maybe it was just random) was when i put in a custom (non proxy) running animation (in order to get a straighter running pose) it broke all animations completely. I can't confirm it right now but it might be that mixing proxy and normal animations might break animations

i never noticed this in 3pt

but i also haven't done any of this since IK2 except for FBT now

[rancid glen]

Alright, this is indeed my desired behavior, the transition between tracking being enabled and disabled is a bit jank (since it just instantly snaps into position) but it ok for now. In that case i wish the transition wasn't as... harsh, a soft 0.25 sec interpolation would be nice

to further elaborate, what i did is set up a second layer that toggles the tracking off as soon as movement is detected and on again when i come to a stand still

[raw wadi]

I only want the ik to behave the same way as upright below 0.65 when both feet are set to animate.

hip drag behind went upright is above 0.65

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/upright-065

[polar blade]

when I'm in fbt I can't fully extend my arm does anyone know what might the reason be?

[timber grove]

Are you using scale by height or arms?

[polar blade]

I tried both. Same issue. This is how my armature looks like

viewball

[raw wadi]

Move the view point more forward a little. And change your real height

How wide the shoulder compaire to your can play a role

[oak pendant]

For the best solution, you should use scale-by-height mode and shorten your avatar's arms in Blender. But if you don't want to alter your avatar and just want direct control over how the arms fit, then use scale-by-arms mode, and in the main menu's Tracking & IK section reduce the Arm vs Height Ratio setting to tighten the arms. In all cases you should be using your actual real height for your User Real Height setting.

[polar blade]

oh great thank you

btw does your youtube tutorial still hold up to today's vrik? I'd like to make my avatar as proportionally accurate as possible so I'm wondering if I should follow that tutorial again or if now there's a better solution like trying to match proportions from ybot or some other model

[oak pendant]

For proportional editing you can still use it. But for all the "fixes" I've been able to address (I think) all of them directly with IK2.0 updates now

[devout current]

You can also use an upper chest bone now :p

[oak pendant]

The stuff about height scaling and floor height is still sorta relevant if you want to understand how scale-by-arms mode works, but that whole complexity can be skipped by using the new scale-by-height mode

[polar blade]

is there any point in using it if I dont have a chest tracker?

[devout current]

It just allows for more movement in the chest area, you don't need it, but it's nice to have.

[oak pendant]

It gives a bit more curve to the spine, but it's mostly down to preference. The ribcage area is pretty rigid so some people might prefer not to use one.

I mean the real human ribcage area*

[devout current]

Tbh I still wonder why people agreed on another chest bone as it's normally a relatively stiff area. I personally would have wished for another spine bone.

[oak pendant]

I suppose you could rig it that way with the "chest" bone really low and upperchest where chest normally is. I did a bit of testing on rigs like that during ik-beta. But it's not exactly a primary supported way of doing it

I wouldn't really recommend doing it either, because later on when we can have compressible spines to help with spine crunch gamer-neck a very low chest bone would limit the rage of compression of the spine bone

[devout current]

Yeah, I've seen people do the same. Sadly Unitys Humanoid Rig doesn't provide any way to add more than one spine bone by default.

[devout current]

Btw do you plan to make that configurable by the Avatar creator at the end?

[oak pendant]

It would be configured by the length of the spine bone most likely. In general it's a change that would be trying to improve lock-all behavior on all existing avatars, so needing avatar creator config would mean legacy avatars are left out

I don't think it would be active outside of lock-all mode anyway

[dark glacier]

Alright so idk where to put this but I use a gaming laptop for VRChat on VR and my connection is usually full of lag spikes and everything. Any tips on how to make it better? An Ethernet cable is out of the question due to the router being downstairs sadly.

[marsh elm]

#user-support-old

[digital grove]

the only solution is to stop being cringe and use ethernet

you can use powerline ethernet adaptors to go through walls

[zenith glacier]

Might be useable for head lock as well, since it allows pushing down the hip and avatars begin bending their legs if you look down. (That said, my avi has heels and am running a slight offset to my actual height, so i am not the proper configured audience) toggleable in the menu would probably be amazing I think? (Just like loco anims on/off)

[oak pendant]

Maybe, but I'm guessing some people wouldn't like compressible bones, so it'd be good for an option to remain for them. Totally preventing the hip sag in lock-head mode basically means you're essentially in lock-all, so it would kind of mean we'd just be getting rid of the lock-head option if it were the same as lock-all

[zenith glacier]

true, didnt think it would essentially turn into lock all at thatpoint. hope you can include it into a beta soon, really curious how avatars will behave then 👍

[devout current]

Yeah I would not want lock head to have it

[zenith glacier]

was just like an idea if one has massive hip drift to be like 80% drift 20% spine compression to mitigate a tiny bit (when it gets too large)

[harsh lagoon]

bone compression would be pretty neat if i'm thinking of it the way you're talking about, only thing i'd be concerned about is how it may affect child bones, like if my neck were able to compress would it cause the bell on my avatars collar to also squish and become an oval?

though i'm not sure if the neck is even being concidered for the compression thing lol

[devout current]

The only bone being considered for now is the spine IIRC

[zenith glacier]

Childbone question remains i think, since some avis may have something parented to their spine which is not Chest. Guess thats a difficult one to answer?

[harsh lagoon]

oki oki

[torpid heart]

Hey! I was looking into the possibility of getting finger tracking gloves that are supported by steam VR and was wondering if it is possibly supported by vrchat just how quest 2 finger tracking is?

The gloves I'm looking at works for games like half life Alex and bone works

[marsh elm]

No, they'd have to emulate index controllers for it to work

There is no hand tracking support for pc yet

[torpid heart]

Some people are using OSC and ALVR with quest 2 hand tracking for full hand tracking in vrchat via pc

Maybe something similar can be done through OSC?

I have a link to a YouTube video of someone doing the hand tracking using OSC and Quest 2 hand tracking

[digital grove]

What is OST

Maybe you mean OSC

[marsh elm]

Anything can be done via OSC, doesn't meant it is supported

[rancid glen]

So i've noticed whenver i join a new instance, my avatars legs are turned ~90°, this only happens in FBT, could the rotation of trackers be at fault for this? (does VRChat align them to their original internal rotation whenever joining an instance), after resetting or changing avatars it fixes itself

[marsh elm]

Tracker orientation doesn't matter

[rancid glen]

It shouldn't yes. It doesn't on calibration

[marsh elm]

🤔

[rancid glen]

but it breaks on all avatars after joining a different instance

[marsh elm]

Does it just randomly snap to the side after a bit?

[rancid glen]

nope

only on join

it remains completely fixed for the entire instance session and breaks once i switch worlds

after which i have to switch avatars to fix it again

[jovial shadow]

avatar to real life size scaling zones
one messured feet to hip, the second one hip to headset, the last one for arm length

often avatars are only a tiny bit out of scale for you to get the best tracking results, with scaling zones this might get it even closer resulting in better tracking results

(if it is possible to make in unity)

[oak pendant]

Do you happen to use the "freeze trackers on disconnect" option, and if so, does unchecking that option fix the issue for you?

[rancid glen]

i do, haven't tested turning it off yet

[rancid glen]

@oak pendant nope, doesnt fix it

[orchid moss]

I have a question about full body tracking whenever I calibrate everything and then go sit down or lay down my torso is twisted to the right when in person im sitting up straight and it messes my whole thing up and i need to re calibrate to fix my twisted torso is there any fix for that problem?

[tranquil cipher]

Can't say I've heard of that one. Could you share a video?

[marsh elm]

probably the waist tracker riding up when sitting down

or the legs knocking it around if they keep it in front

[timber nexus]

hello im trying tocalibrate in vrc, but i don't have a calibration option in my menu, even though my fbt is activated on me right now
i restarted vrc multiples times already

how do i get the calibration t-pose?

normally im supposed to have calibrate button here

[timber nexus]

I use a single controller, and so that's the reason i don't have the option to use full body tracking

is there a way to force it?

[timber willow]

pretty sure you'll need to have that controller, my friend was having this issue too, there's a Canny about it but it's not really answered

[raw wadi]

Need 2 controller for fbt

[robust tangle]

I was conveniently on a 2 month vacation away from my index when my most wanted index bug got fixed, so I wasn't able to actually test it until I got home this week.

I don't think root motion is fully fixed! At least, I'm going to public MMD worlds and still seeing group dances where some people have their hips locked at the center of the stage. Going to do more research before sounding all the alarms on the canny, though.

[mortal lagoon]

You will have to emulate a second VR controller. I don't know if this works but you could try this https://github.com/matzman666/OpenVR-InputEmulator

[timber willow]

ooh

[rancid glen]

@oak pendant so after switching worlds in 3pt it happens even without FBT, my legs (and now feet) are turned 90°, regardless of options and regardless of FBT

[rancid glen]

happens in all avatars still

[oak pendant]

Thanks for the added testing. Does this occur with the default/public avatars too? Also are you using your actual height for the user-real-height setting?

[oak pendant]

I think our main testing there was focused on avatar animations rather than station animations. Were you able to confirm that MMD worlds are broken?

[oak pendant]

Also, I'm curious if the issue occurs in both AV2 and AV3 avatars

[rancid glen]

I'll have to try those. Another note i can make is that all my avatars do use their own locomotion layer. 3pt tracking was also with FBT trackers active (and FBT "enabled" in settings) but not yet calibrated.

lemme hop on real quick, i'ma do a couple more tests

It's also networked to others

[oak pendant]

Thanks! Yeah I haven't heard of this issue from other sources yet, so it would be good to rule out an avatar issue. Though in theory avatar at world load should behave the same as avatar at reload, so this is likely a bug, if not a rare one.

[rancid glen]

It's weird it started somewhat recently (shortly after i got FBT)

[oak pendant]

Hmm, it could be that your custom locomotion layer is interacting poorly with the trackingtype parameter, but still it should behave the same when the world loads and when the avatar reloads I think

But yeah would be good to test it on some of the default public avatars with the default locomotion layer

[rancid glen]

Which would be weird since my locomotion layer doesn't touch/use that parameter at all (just like the default)

all it does is just reduce the amount of different "states" it has and compacts it all into one large motion field

But i could imagine the init animation (which is used for the preview) doing some whacky stuff.

[oak pendant]

If it doesn't occur on default avatars but does occur on yours, you could also try disabling locomotion with the button in the quickmenu IK settings area (the one that looks like footsteps)

That completely swaps out the base layer of the avatar, so can be used to see if that's what's causing the issue. (You need to be in FBT mode for that button to appear)

[rancid glen]

Doing a couple dry joins and rejoins in FBT so far and couldnt repro with my own avatars, all worlds were empty, lets see if its depending on other players

First try, immediately broke. Rejoining the world fixes it. Rejoining again breaks it again.

[oak pendant]

Interesting, so it's breaking only in worlds with other players?

[rancid glen]

Seemingly, that would explain why i dont get it in my homeworld and instances i join first

[oak pendant]

Were you able to test on default avatars?

[rancid glen]

doing a couple more rejoins in the same world without people confirmed this

thats coming now

Publics dont seem to do this, neither do my slightly older avatars pre-preview animation

i have an idea...

Okay. So it seems like when an animation state uses Foot IK and Write Defaults, it borks the legs on joining others whenever it isnt already broken, in which case it fixes it.

I forgot to uncheck those, not that they should do anything to begin with because there is always an animation overriding the defaults and foot IK only works while in said state

but since all animations are proxies and the switch to normal loco happens immediately it could get stuck causing this weird issue

[oak pendant]

Can you share some screenshots of the animation state that causes this?

And your transition conditions to normal locomotion as well?

[rancid glen]

if Preview has both enabled it breaks

[oak pendant]

How will Spawn get set to true?

[rancid glen]

Its initially true, as i use it for my spawn in effect to trigger

since it a condition that allows immediate skipping the preview anim state its also useful for this

[oak pendant]

Ah ok. Thanks for the added testing, I think that's enough info for me to file this as a bug internally. In the meantime are you able to get the desired behavior on your avatar by removing write defaults on that state?

[rancid glen]

yes

updated all my avatars to fix this

[oak pendant]

Ok cool. I think this will end up being a kind of low priority bug because it's such a specific case, but it's definitely not intended behavior that the avatar load processes can be interfered with like that so it's very good to know about. Thanks for all that extra testing to chase down the root cause 🙏

[rancid glen]

Alright

[oak pendant]

(low priority, but I'm filing it as an internal task right now)

[fast gust]

I'm not sure if i should be posting this in #avatar-rigging or here but when using FBT my avatar's arms are straight in t-pose and arms down, but will bend when pointing straight forward unless i have lock-all on. Is this still a proportions issue? My controllers seem to line up with the palms in calibration.

Otherwise they straighten when I tilt my head back

[fast gust]

I reset the bone rolls before exporting from blender and it still does it 😦

[zenith glacier]

a picture or video would be helpfull i think

[pulsar gulch]

Anyone has a link to a textual form tutorial for full body avatar fixe instead of a video

[marsh elm]

nope

[raw wadi]

There is not full body fix

[marsh elm]

Reverse is asking if kung's rig troubleshooting video has a text transcript

Which it doesn't, (that i know of)

[oak pendant]

Yeah, you'd have to rely on automatic subtitles. But a lot of the issues I went over in that old video are things that I set out to fix during the IK2.0 update. That whole section on arm scaling isn't needed now if you use scale-by-height for example.

I think the only part really still relevant is how to edit proportions in pose-mode

[pulsar gulch]

I am mostly trying to have an avatar respect my irl proportion and someone actually recommended that video to me. I am thinking of maybe just doing it an other way instead.

And I have more ease to follow information on paper then in video format, mostly why I asked if a textual form existed.

[maiden rock]

Something for docs.vrchat.com perhaps

Going through the process with an extremely simple rigged avatar as an example, based on a user's real life limb lengths as a guide, and works with 11pt tracking

[timber grove]

@oak pendant Sorry for the ping, but I just wanted to quickly say thanks for adding in the calibration positioning tweaking. It's absolutely amazing and works extremely well. Keep up the good work!

https://tenor.com/view/myobi-dance-myobi-vrc-vrchat-dance-gif-19124347

[oak pendant]

Aww thanks! I really appreciate it! And nice moves!

[timber grove]

Hehe you're welcome

and that's not me dancing

(I would break every bone)

[oak pendant]

Ah hehe, well thanks for the encouragement still. Means a lot to hear that kind of thing 😁

[timber grove]

Kind words and appreciation to the team

https://tenor.com/view/baby-throw-window-money-cash-gif-16491349

[oak pendant]

I'll pass it along!

[maiden rock]

can we use the calibration tweaking to extend other limbs of the body including the head position offset?

as to use it as a better alternative with the look down/spine extension work arounds

[devout current]

I think time would be spent better working on the spine it self instead of implementing that.

[maiden rock]

it would but I was asking if that was in scope of the recent patch

[marsh elm]

I mean, you could probably push the waist and legs up/down manually to get a similar result

[marsh elm]

The number of people that went "Holy shi-" when the beta dropped lol

[harsh lagoon]

I think i'll ask this question here since it's more likely to be seen by people that know about full body tracking stuff, but it's just a random thought i had, not anything serious
Do people using full body tracking affect performance at all? Like if we had 2 identical lobbies with the same avatars in them, but all of one lobby was in full body, and all of the other lobby was in half body, does that matter?

[strong sundial]

I would assume it shouldn't with networked ik.
Since your ik is processed locally then it sends over the pose of your humanoid rig over the network multiple times a second.
Both half-body and FBT use networked IK and send over the same amount of data iirc. And you only calculate your own ik.

[devout current]

Afaik since NetIK is used in both cases I don't think there would be a difference.

[harsh lagoon]

Ooohhhh okay that makes sense nice to know!

[devout current]

I'm not 100% sure on that though, so yeah

[oak pendant]

Yes it's correct that whether or not other users are in FBT has no effect on your performance.

The only thing close to having a performance impact depending on other users' IK would be if other users are using whitelisted FinalIK scripts (for example spider avatars) or tons of constraints.

[stoic geyser]

Hello, I am new to fullbody tracking and I was having an issue where IK 2.0 causes my avatar to appear hunched at the shoulders/neck and I can't figure out what is going on D:

[naive iron]

That could be bacause you may have lock all on in the IK settings

[pulsar gulch]

you have so much energy in your movement.

[timber grove]

Hehe

If I were to try that I would break all my bones.

[zinc plank]

anyone have this happen to you???

finger tracking does not work?
my apologies
I am at am impasse here
I have no I dea whats going on.

[marsh elm]

This mf really did go: \o/

[marsh elm]

Have you tried other avatars? Try the public ones

Also check on the steamvr controller test to see if your sensors are registering your fingers at all

[zinc plank]

Yes. It works on my other avis the open hand and jump/move/turn gestures move to all of my motions of my controllers

[wicked fog]

Could I get help as to why in fbt my knees are so far apart? I can be sitting with my feet and knees touching, yet my legs are still making a 'v' shape

Height is fine, floor is fine, using tundra, trackers are on my hip and top of feet

Calibrating so my limbs line up with my avatar, height is my irl height

I've tried many models, even ones with very similar proportions to me irl, issue persists

Had a friend with full body try some of my avatars and he does not have that issue

I tried messing with knee angle but it messes up how other things look that I don't like, and also every time I calibrate or try another model I need to readjust the knee angle setting

Also if I walk it looks bow-legged

If anyone knows any fixes please let me know, it's really bugging me.

Also please ping as I'm in a lot of servers so I may forget to check this one every so often

[wicked fog]

reference picture as to what i mean

[digital grove]

seems you need knee trackers

but also check your height settings

and don't use lock all if the model doesn't have good proportions

[wicked fog]

I've tried all the lock options and messed with height a lot

@digital grove

[digital grove]

what are you using for tracking

[marsh elm]

eyeballing the coordinates on a 3d space and quickly inputting it onto steamvr

[digital grove]

Yeah that'll do it

[boreal current]

Anyone have any recommendations for a chest tracker strap? (Other than the tundra)

[maiden rock]

If you have a tundra to put on it https://github.com/katruud/Catstrap-VR-Tracker-Mounts/tree/main/Alternate Chest %2B Woojer

[boreal current]

Would it work with a vive 3.0?

[maiden rock]

stl for the vive compatible version can be grabbed here https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/787792663620485131/1078669912266002482/reverst-chest-tracker_v4.stl which will be also added to the github tomorrow

Requires 1/4" Stainless steel countersunk screw 13mm (For example: https://www.ebay.de/itm/323970523916)

[prisma meadow]

is there a good way to limit shoulder sag with elbow trackers?

[oak pendant]

You could use the grab-to-adjust FBT feature (in the Tracking&IK quickmenu) to raise up the shoulders slightly. Alternatively, there's a* checkbox in the Tracking&IK section of the main menu to just disable shoulder tracking altogether.

Sidenote: shoulder tracking may behave oddly if you don't set your User-Real-Height accurately, so that might be the first thing to try if it's not set to your IRL height at the moment.

[marsh elm]

omg grab adjust is perfect for adjusting a prerfect shrug tracking

My shrugging always calibrate in a way that has too little motion

Didn't even think of that

[green walrus]

Does anyone know how to fix this problem when just turning the hand up? It's definitely just VRChat IK problem that haven't taking care of for years, or the rig has to be fixed?

[marsh elm]

looks like a twistbones moment

I believe there is a setting in the unity humanoid rig options that let you choose how much the arm twists when doing that

You could try messing with it

[vestal oriole]

clear rolls in blender , its in discord here somewhere how to unmess that (had one like it too)

[green walrus]

Unfortunately it's not that problem, it's fine if you rotate your "hand" at small angles, but it bring the whole arm instead of only the hand rotating.

[green walrus]

Added that happens when you have your hand extended out which fits the model. Not sure it's the IK settings for Vive, I realise that VRChat has different default IK profile for Vive/Index/Quest(Oculus VR)

https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/201832-bugfbt-issues-elbow-now-twists-instead-of-wrist
This problem still exist which is not fixed. Tracked internally but not looked after?

[west bane]

I believe the IK on the arm is behaving as intended. when you rotate your wrist in real life your whole forearm gradually twists. We usually only have a single bone in the rigs for our 3d models so we cannot replicate that gradual twist. VRchat has opted to rotate the forearm along with the wrist since it looks better in most situations.

If you want a more involved solution, look into adding twist bones on your forearm. It will require adding bones and shifting weight paints in Blender.

[green walrus]

The thing is arm itself ignored rotating the upper arm which it should, lower arm should have no rotating except folding up your arm.

[empty root]

when you rotate your wrist, the upper arm doesnt move

the rotation happens in the elbow, and in the wrist

the elbows being scuffed is probably a poor rig

you can be lazy like me and just buy elbow trackers for it, or remove any twist bones

[green walrus]

: /

[celest forum]

Anyone else having weird FBT calibration issues since last update? my legs dont feel quite right

[sharp pawn]

sorry for ping , but did u find a way to solve this problem ? I just faced it too

[zinc plank]

yes, the issue is the bindings in steam vr

disable xsoverlay and ovradvanced settings and restart with no overlays and start up aps

[digital grove]

this sounds like maybe you need to go to the leg doctor

seriously tho that's no information at all, you need to describe what you mean

[sharp pawn]

oooh, sorry but where I can find it ?D:

[zinc plank]

Steam vr settings

turn all the overlay apps off on launch

[sharp pawn]

Oh this one, all this off for me , like all the time

[zinc plank]

hmmmm, okay. what worked for me was uninstalling and reinstalling vrc

[sharp pawn]

I just reinstall my game, but nothing work.. F

[smoky ermine]

Hi anyone know a way to save calibration between game sessions so I can open the game and not have to calibrate

[naive iron]

I don't think it's possible atm, and probably won't get added. Calibration only takes a couple seconds anyways, so I fail to see the point.

[raw wadi]

I don't think you place the tracker at the exact place every session so no

[steady ice]

clip

ree, wrong chat

[empty solar]

I want to know why a Lock to Chest Option isn't available yet?

[iron hamlet]

was about to ask if anyone else had weird IK2-changes since the last update...

Last week calibration of my main was just peachy.

Today - post update - exactly the same settings ingame I cant get it right for the life of me, been trying for hours now juggling with all available settings... no dice

...its one of them "plateau/heels"-cases btw

[raw wadi]

Change the lock option

[iron hamlet]

srsly?

well... testing in a minute

[iron hamlet]

or in hours... just went from gogoloco to vrcfury... yay! down that rabbithole I go! 🤣 🤣 🤣

[whole glacier]

It would be cool to have toggles for FBT locking instead of separate selections.
Tho, I wonder how only having lock chest toggled would look.

[empty root]

https://tenor.com/view/fustylugs-leave-vrchat-bug-glitch-gif-25061484

[vital inlet]

When you are in fbt, and you move your head left and right, your body jitters insanely hard, i really hope this gets fixed soon, since it really degrades immersion sometimes and overall is a pretty annoying thing for remote players

[past spruce]

I am pretty sure Kung talked about this issue somewhere in here at some point. There is a user-created fix for this that you can apply to your avatar: https://github.com/SouljaVR/AutoImmobilizeOSC

[rancid glen]

is a major dealbreaker for me

i fail to see why it wouldn't work with locomotion animations enabled but if thats the case then its no good

[vital inlet]

This should just be globally fixed its been 2 years

[vital inlet]

Like, relying on the community to make workarounds for a million dollar company is cheap

[timber grove]

Is this the issue where 1 person randomly starts to shake and jitter occasionally or is this different?

[vital inlet]

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/104001796/164468165-bcc211b1-a9a5-4429-bbce-ff79ba20a231.mp4

This

1 local, 2 remote

Why does this even extrapolate

[timber grove]

I think @dreamy pawn has this problem.

[vital inlet]

We all do

if you don't turn off locomotion in the FX layer while laying down, remotes will always see you jitter like that

Which has an issue, cause then you can't move around anymore

[timber grove]

Interesting

But he has it while standing up

idk if that makes a difference

but it comes and goes

[vital inlet]

Guess its global

Doesnt matter if laying down or sitting up

Its tracked internally, but hasnt gotten any love

actually, its interested

https://files.moonvrc.com/chrome_dvzHhzlXxT.png
Ayo, @oak pendant Respectfully looking 👀

[spring patrol]

Is there any way to translate my hands, be it in game or in SteamVR? My left hand is always lower down than my right hand when my arms are at my sides and it causes problems. FBT Move and Rotate only goes down to my elbow trackers so that doesn't work

[raw wadi]

Restart steam VR maybe

[split bobcat]

Wonder if theres a way to adjust the strength of the chest tracking. When I lock hips only the chest barely moves but if I lock check and hips the chest moves TOO much and results in bad postures. I wonder if theres an inbetween.

or if theres any advice to fix bad postures

[devout current]

The "bad postures" might just be due to how Lock All works in general. It can look quite broke sometimes, but Kung still plans to work on that in the future.

[jade wyvern]

my workaround for that in Lock All is to calibrate with the chest tracker lower down the body first, and then move it up after. I don't know why, but it seems to reduce the chest movement and make you look less like a wacky waving inflatable tube

[split bobcat]

physically move it down then up?

[jade wyvern]

yes, physically moving the tracker down and up on your body

[oak pendant]

Been pretty busy recently with the eye tracking stuff and related XR backend so haven't been as active as I'd like to be in this channel. Sorry bout that!

[oak pendant]

Yeah, that canny could probably be marked as "fixed". It was tracked as of 2018. After IK2.0 the behavior there is different and to see the severity of issues in there you'd have to enable legacy IK mode in FBT I think.

In general the issue you're talking about though is the reason that the concept of twist bones exist, and it's not easily totally solvable without them. If the bone weighting without a twist bone is smoothed across the entire forearm, when you bend your wrist up and down or bend your elbow the arm would bend smoothly towards it like a noodle, so usually an avatar is rigged with vertex weights that change more quickly near those joints. Given that situation, the twist needs to be relaxed somewhere. It's biased a bit towards the elbow and the current behavior is intended. Without twist bones the "candy wrapper" effect appearing somewhere is kind of unavoidable so the question is do you want candy wrapper wrists or elbows. I consider it a win if the odd behavior appears near painful poses (so trying to rotate your thumb to point behind you). If this was manifesting more at common poses (like in that Canny) then things should be adjust if possible to conceal it towards less likely poses.

[oak pendant]

Do you still have this issue? There were some changes to the way avatar playable layers were loaded which affected the way the TPose was initialized but as far as I know these have been fixed now.

[oak pendant]

It would break even more than lock-all does. The lock head, lock hip and lock all options are there because people prioritize those alignments a lot. For the head it's the alignment for looking people in the eyes, for the hip it affects how the knees bend. Lock all allows spatial positional control of the chest, but it can be affected by the hip and head position as well. I guess it depends on how you'd expect it to function, but currently lock all is pretty close to a lock chest kind of behavior already.

[oak pendant]

Yeah that OSC tool is a good interim solution. The only thing really keeping that from being implemented natively right now is extra handling for tweening coming out of a locked rotation when locomotion engages can have people doing quick spins every time they locomote. I'd like to have a more complete solution for this. Tupper brought this back up to me recently and asked for more priority on this. It pains me to see the jitter in stuff like video content people create. So yeah wanna fix, should fix, (probably) will fix. Lots on my plate at the moment though.

[oak pendant]

Currently not, but the differences in control over hands vs trackers is growing more and more as we add more FBT options, so I'd like to propagate more of that customizability to them at some point. Internally hand position and calibrated FBT trackers are handled differently which is the reason the new stuff isn't just available for hands automatically when we add it.

[oak pendant]

Yep, I've been working on this. I actually have an early prototype but it's not quite ready for beta tests. It seems to perpetually end up as 2nd or 3rd on my list of todos and spot 1 keeps getting new things swapped in. I continue to chip away at the task in between though.

[devout current]

wow thats one big wall of text 😅

[oak pendant]

You could also use the grab to adjust FBT feature maybe so you don't have to move the physical tracker.

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I always try to read everything in here, just haven't had time to respond because of other tasks 😅

[empty solar]

I'm hoping that at the least Lock All does see improvements, especially since the hunchback doesn't look right. This was why last year I was asking for a reference IK so that I could adjust my model to work better for the Lock All method proportion wise.

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I'm making progress with a dynamic spine length. It allows the crunch that collects at the neck to have someplace else to go. I don't think a reference rig could really solve the issue because you'd have to adjust it to yourself anyway. The depth and position of the descriptor viewball can have a lot of impact on how much head pitch rotation imparts a compression on the spine etc.

[devout current]

Yup this is easily noticed when you are in lock head and start to look up / down.

[oak pendant]

I talk about some advice in this twitter thread here: https://twitter.com/VRCSpooky/status/1618461577975562240

VRCSpooky (@VRCSpooky)

@Kung_VR Can you help me set my avatars rig up for fullbody, I am apparently incapable 😅

Twitter · Jan 26, 2023, 4:11 AM

[devout current]

If the spine etc moves too much with it the view point is either too far out or too far in.

[oak pendant]

Oh that thread is kinda long actually, this is what I was referring to: https://twitter.com/Kung_VR/status/1619137610223607814

Kung (@Kung_VR)

@VRCSpooky Viewball is where you will be IRL relative to the avatar. Viewball far in front means avatar far behind. And reverse if the viewball is deep in the avatar's face. When you tilt your head (for example) down IRL things attached behind go up and things in front go down. (see image)

Twitter · Jan 28, 2023, 12:57 AM

pulling on the spine in lock-all isn't too bad because even though it's lock all it does allow the hip to slide towards the head, but pushing on it in compression forces the bones to get out of the way somehow, making the hunched back

[empty solar]

I know this is unrelated, but i know people have requested this and it's still under "interested" https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/network-jitter-with-ik. Apparently 2020+ fixed Time.deltaTime so it should stutters less but i guess we'll have to see whenever we can go to the new LTS

[oak pendant]

The tweening issue isn't a bug with Time.deltaTime as far as I know. I mentioned the status of that issue here though just a bit a go: #ik-2 message

I agree that the solution should probably be to not try to rotate the character controller when it's not necessary to be able to sidestep the problem altogether

[timber grove]

That was a discussion with m.o.o.n and another guy about that

I know ColeFreezer had this really bad, like way more than a lot of people.

[oak pendant]

You're referring to the head rotation, body counter rotation tween discrepancy right?

[timber grove]

I’m referring to the jitter problem.

[empty solar]

I'm not sure how the network handles IK. I think with me saying that and your explanation, I think what I brought up might relate more to stuff like Contacts, Physbones, and anything using a fixed time

[timber grove]

https://youtu.be/wCQ8VZ5e3PY seen in this video at 0:33

[oak pendant]

Oh, is there a Canny for that issue?

[green walrus]

It's not a hard angel to twist imo, like you open your hand to take something from others, I was wondering if the arm can twist like real life rather than relying on the elbow.

[timber grove]

There is I believe

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/network-jitter-with-ik

[empty solar]

as much as that's a bit of a weird bug tbh I'd want that as a feature since we can't use Dynamic bones to do that anymore

[green walrus]

To be real, the arm should do the rotation than the elbow dealing with the rotation I think?

[oak pendant]

In real life the radius and ulna bones cross, which would behave something like twist bones. But for avatars rigged without twist bones it's not possible to express that, so some unrealistic tradeoff has to occur

[devout current]

wow that's some extreme jittering

[green walrus]

🤔

[devout current]

In real life your forearm has to bones, when you rotate your wrist these two cross

[green walrus]

but the calculation took place at the elbow bone

[oak pendant]

The twist is biased to follow the wrist more than the elbow, but it's not locked to either one completely

[empty solar]

in blender you could use drivers and blendshapes to correct deformation. Unity I don't think it's possible

[devout current]

That seems like a good compromise

[devout current]

I mean you could also just use a twist bone sooooo yeah

[oak pendant]

You could rig it with two bones with look constraints to have them cross like IRL too, dunno how hard it would be to have that look good but could be a fun project

But yeah personally I use twist bones on my avatar

[devout current]

How tf would you weight paint that? xD

[devout current]

How do you even use these btw?

[oak pendant]

Interesting, I took the description provided in that canny to mean the rotation counter rotation. But maybe "shaking side to side" is a positional movement.

[oak pendant]

Yeah you'd probably have to have extra bones pointed across the two to allow the "skin" to slide on the surface

[timber grove]

@dreamy pawn sorry for ping but do you have any information on this?

[oak pendant]

Yeah I know exactly what's happening with the rotation issue, but I don't know about that positional snapping. That looks like tweening is like, totally not even occurring

[devout current]

I wish Unity's Humanoid Rig would support twist bones by default....

[oak pendant]

If I can reproduce the issue myself I could get a sense for what's going on. It looks like in Sipp's video only they are experiencing it, and no other users, so it appears to be less of a degree of failure but more of something unique happening in that case

[empty solar]

when quest can't use constraints

[timber grove]

This might be related?

[oak pendant]

That appears to be the rotation issue

[timber grove]

Ok

[vital inlet]

My issue is easy to reproduce

[oak pendant]

In Sipp's video at 0:33 there's no yaw rotation, only sideways translation, and it appears as though it causes an issue with the position and the issue is snappy and not tweening either. The rotation issue has to do with the accuracy of absolute position of the limbs when two tweens are combined (head rotation and body rotation)

[vital inlet]

Litterally just sit in fbt and move your head left and right

[oak pendant]

By move you mean yaw rotation correct?

look to the left, look to the right etc?

[vital inlet]

Yeah like in that example video

Ye

[devout current]

Yeah

[oak pendant]

Ok yeah, that issue I understand and can reproduce

[devout current]

That's just the normal IK jitter

[oak pendant]

In Sipp's video at 0:33 something else is occurring

[vital inlet]

Temporary fix is to turn off locomotion, but that wont make us able to move

[green walrus]

I would also like to point out that if using different controller the IK will be different, which is strange when its not based on the headset I use

In general Index IK is better than Vive

[oak pendant]

Different in what way?

[devout current]

I didn't know that fixees it, interesting

[vital inlet]

I wonder if the client can just immitate that for remote and that fixes it

[green walrus]

The IK in FBT is slightly different, I feel the Index is more accurate

Both using Head lock

[oak pendant]

Yeah, disabling locomotion via AV3 prevents the character controller from rotating which prevents the issue. The only reason that can't be implemented as is would be a larger tween happening when you do engage locomotion.

[vital inlet]

So is it cause your head rotation makes the "actual player" rotate too?

Thus interpolation happens on remote?

[green walrus]

The viewport drift from old IK is fixed by head lock, I remember that when I switch the controllers back then

[oak pendant]

Hmm, interesting. There shouldn't be any difference currently. It used to be that because with index controllers the local pose was processed once to apply the finger bends and Vive wasn't that there was a difference, but now we handle both the same way

[green walrus]

It's odd because when you laying down, the hip position is slightly different still, I can tell index is closer to real life.

Can't this share the same IK profile?

[oak pendant]

Yeah, that's the fundamental issue. And the pose itself is tweened too. So for example the end location of your outstretched leg is the result of the entire player pointing in a new direction combined with the tweened pose of the new difference in rotation between the head and hips (and leg)

It would be much more stable if the character controller didn't rotate

[oak pendant]

As far as I know it does. There's no special handling for index vs vive at the moment

But if this is an experience you had long ago (like a year +) there was a difference back then

currently the Vive behavior has been changed to match Index though

[green walrus]

Could be placebo effect? but still I think there are some difference, just need more than me to have a test run

I wish to the controller offset sometimes, since we already have rotation, and profile for types of controllers.

The center of Index is not the same of Vive of course

[oak pendant]

Yeah it's possible there would be a difference for the controllers since they're different tracked objects. For the hip though there shouldn't be a difference

And yeah mentioned that a bit here #ik-2 message

[green walrus]

I will need a second person to try, because to me it's just me running two sets of controllers time to time

I can try get some video if possible

[oak pendant]

Yeah if you find out something more concrete that's on VRChat's end (so like the SteamVR overlay doesn't show the difference but VRC does) then I'd be interested because if it's the case it sounds like unexpected behavior

[vital inlet]

Any idea why the avatar is shifted to the left?

[devout current]

idk why but to me it looks like one arm is longer than the other one

[raw wadi]

One arm is maybe longer. Or, your view point is not 0, or, you have have multiple avatar enable in the scene, or tell us more info, that's not normal but you might have to adjust you PlaySpace hehe haha.

[zenith linden]

Will we ever be able to go through walls or props in fbt and not freeze the body?

[shrewd phoenix]

I use the stationary toggle with Gogoloco to do that

[zenith linden]

Yea but some avis dont have gogo. I shouldnt have to use third party to do it

[digital grove]

You should be able to do the same gogoloco does in your own avatar and upload it like that. Gogoloco only uses what you can already do with the SDK.

[raw wadi]

@zenith linden you can open the main menu and walk or PlaySpace

[west bane]

are you using a non-lighthouse tracked headset? I get that sort of shift between my windows headset and index controllers/trackers because the tracking "universes" drift apart over time. I just have to run the space calibrator to get things to line back up.

[grand delta]

When I calibrate in FBT and extend my arms out to match the t-pose, my avatar's arms line up perfectly. But when I put my arms down to my side, or forwards, they are extremely stiff and my IRL arms reach further than the avatar's. Help?

Issue is the same without FBT

[raw wadi]

Depend how wide the shoulder of the model vs yours are. That will happen

[empty solar]

I have to readjust my shoulder bones

[devout current]

Yeah that really just sounds like the body proportions are just wrong

[obtuse dock]

my avatar has kinda chibi proportions, and his hands are not reaching his hips when they are put down (they're moreso just curling) this is without fbt btw

[digital grove]

fix your avatar then

[mortal lagoon]

Most likely you'll have to move the viewpoint down a bit to fix that, especially if your avatar has a huge "mascot head".

[obtuse dock]

thank u broo

[hybrid iris]

Has the toggle off full body tracking button been removed from the UI? Trying to get 3PT tracking back is now a nightmare when my trackers turn off

[sonic briar]

Ive been using an inverted hip bone for years and I never questioned whether or not its just an outdated standard.
Are there any advantages to flipping it to the standard upright orientation? I know that Id have to fix things like tail animations. It just isnt something that I thought about

[mortal lagoon]

Inverted hip bone is a very, very outdated standard, yeah. Several years ago it was basically necessary for FBT so that's why people were doing it, but that reason is no more and it's just bad practice in todays time.

[twilit prism]

Hi! I've been wracking my head over trying to fix a specific issue regarding leg bending if you have your tracker on the foot.
TLDR: Avatar is scaled to my proportions, correct height in VRC, tried all lock modes, tried with and without chest, elbows and knees.

An example I guess, would be at 22 seconds

The knee or leg isn't being moved in real life, just the ankle being bent up and down slightly

I'm just guessing that it's an unwanted side effect of having the tracker on your feet as opposed to lower leg.
Maybe having an option that allows priority for leg bending to follow the knee tracker stricter? especially if the leg is straight?

[cedar umbra]

10 point tracking🥹

[vapid pond]

I always get better results when I make my hands touch infront of my chest

[raw wadi]

You are touching the heart, the core

[torpid heart]

hello. i am wondering if the max amount of tracked vive trackers is 9?

i currently am using 10 trackers. 1 head, 2 hands, 2 elbows, 1 waist, 2 knees, 2 feet. issue is that only one of me knees track and the other is stuck atbone spot in the ground. the tracker itself is perfectly tracked within steamvr

[tranquil cipher]

the limit of trackers is 8, but that doesn't count head and hands because those aren't trackers, they're headset and controllers. So the total amount of tracked devices supported by VRC is 11:

head
hips
chest
left/right hand
left/right foot
left/right elbow
left/right knee

it sounds like the limit you're running into is more about general connectivity issues, and one of your dongles doesn't have a good enough connection

even if you had more than 8 trackers, they would still all be detected by VRChat correctly, and VRChat would only use the ones that are closest to the points during calibration

[torpid heart]

this isnt the case

whichever of the 10 trackers turned on

last is the tracker vrchat ignores and wont use

im using 12 tracked devices

i have a workaround however

thank you

[narrow yew]

so the actual reason is some old steamvr unity plugin that vrchat is still using. steamvr supports 64 tracked devices but that plugin has a limit of 16. the issue is that base stations also count as devices even if they aren't tracked.

so the 16 first things in that small steamvr window will track in game. the workaround you probably have is to shut off your base stations, start steamvr, turn on all trackers once so that they populate the list first, turn on the base stations

[digital grove]

Yeah probably one of the main reasons why I really want vrchat to finally update the dead unity version

[torpid heart]

My work around instead is to just not turn on my right hand tracker till I fully launch vrchat. I don't need vrchat to even recognize my hand trackers as they are for tracking overrides with my controllers so I can put my controllers down when breakdancing

[somber scaffold]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/878727840118505533/1118031817451261992/VirtualDesktop.Android-20230613-000616.jpg?width=608&height=608

tf's going on here

[tranquil cipher]

looks like you have the calibration mirror on in addition to a regular mriror

[somber scaffold]

I'm talking about the calibration

why is it trying to get trackers assigned to the arm

trackers that don't exist, I should add

[tranquil cipher]

if they don't exist, then what happens when you move away from them?

do they follow you? Are they attached to something?

[somber scaffold]

when I lean towards them while in the calibration mode, they swap to the other arm

the green circles swap, I mean

[tranquil cipher]

it's pretty hard to tell with just an image

[somber scaffold]

they seem to be in the same position as my waist tracker

I'm only using 6 trackers though

[safe leaf]

6 slime tracker?

did u press reset

[coral nymph]

I got a question but I'm not 100% sure if this is where I should ask.

It involves ik I believe idk I'm a bit dumb but it's the arm vs height ratio does anyone know how I can calibrate this so my arms won't bend when at the sides of my body and actually look as accurate as possible when I move them? It's starting to annoy me lol its only really noticeable with certain avatars and it sucks cause I like to use a lot of the avatars that do it.

[west bane]

You could switch to armspan mode instead of the default height based mode. This might cause a little weirdness with FBT on the lower body, but that mostly happens when your height or arm/height ratio is off from the model.

[coral nymph]

i think i figured it out thanks for the advice tho i don't have FBT yet but i should be getting it in October hopefully

[jade wyvern]

https://ask.vrchat.com/t/developer-update-29-june-2023/18711#ik-updates-and-improvements-8
ohh my god so excited for this!

[twilit prism]

Ohh holy shitt

lets go boys, we're popping the biggest bottles for this

[strong sundial]

That spine movement looks so much better, I'm super excited for it

[oak pendant]

Looking forward to getting it out to everyone as an ik-beta!

[timber grove]

[raw wadi]

@frosty loom I lost my long kung skull pls post

[frosty loom]

[raw wadi]

No the long one

You said you save it 😦

Find it

Big brain time

Here long

[digital grove]

[oak pendant]

Oh god...

[raw wadi]

@@@@@@@@

Anyway plz fix the 0.65

[oak pendant]

Is that a bug that persists with the Locomotion Animation QM option set to disabled?

[raw wadi]

It's been an issue since 3.0, we have multiple canny.

Search 0.65

[fiery plinth]

Ik 2.0.1 lets goooo being able to sit on my knees again

[devout current]

There have been quite a few changes since IK2 originally came out, so calling it IK2.0.1 wouldn't be really fair xD

[marsh elm]

sorry, you're right

IK2.0.2

[raw wadi]

If they fix what I want. 2.65 update.

[devout current]

IK2.1 imo was the elbow / arm overhaul we got, so IK2.2 would be the spine overhaul

[empty solar]

So I'm realizing something with how the lock options work.
Lock Hip: the "old" system where everything is aligned properly but viewpoint drift when sitting and laying down is present
Lock Head: aligns IK to view point, trade off is it straightens your armature, which can result in bent knees.
Lock All: supposed to combine the best of both worlds, no bent knees and all, but sitting down gives us the neck hunch.
From reading the devblog these should be resolved soon in the new beta

hopefully the new IK beta is coming very soon

[azure path]

as for one using a Occulus CV1 .... its broken on the hands.... its twitching left and right =,=

[livid finch]

I am very glad to hear about that, where is that devblog so I can read through that?
found it ^^

Cause so far I have only this as a fix to that issue but its not efficient at all, cause you'd have to apply that to all of your avatars.

In VRchat, there is a common problem where the viewpoint (what you see) is set at the avatar's nose, causing discomfort or unnatural body movements when looking up or down. This can result in bent knees or standing on tiptoes in the virtual world.

Solution: To fix this issue, it is recommended to adjust the viewpoint by moving it inside the head and aligning it with the spine and hip bone. This alignment reduces sensitivity to rotation, resulting in smoother movements and preventing the entire body from shifting when looking up or down.

To summarise: Move the viewpoint inside the head and align it with the spine and hip bone to prevent discomfort and unnatural body movements caused by looking up or down in VR.

Although moving the viewpoint in the head makes it hard to see your toes if your avi has got boobies.

[raw wadi]

Go flat

[rancid glen]

You say that like its easy. Imagine having a big fluffy chest.

[strong nova]

family guy

[inner stump]

is my controller broke or is it js dead bc when i turn it on it doesnt vibrate the light however comes on what do i do?

[digital grove]

wrong channel innit

[marsh elm]

IK2 stands for
I - broken
K - controller
2 - help

[hot fulcrum]

wow, IK beta

[lean zodiac]

yayy

[timber grove]

I’ll very much be testing it out later!

[lean zodiac]

I wonder if this will fix the one issue where if other people move their head in FBT, their whole body jitters for a moment.

[hot fulcrum]

can you add version number, build number info?
(just to make sure you are in correct branch)

[rocky crypt]

Also maybe mention its live-compatible 😅 ?

[oak pendant]

Get in there and test it out! Also please keep feedback here and in the ik2 canny (so as not to make the normal open beta fill up with info about multiple builds)

[devout current]

That is in the change log

[rocky crypt]

huh ? where

Oh god

[devout current]

Maybe move the #ik-2 channel in the open beta category during the beta preriod btw

[rocky crypt]

I¨m blind

I need to sleep

[tawny oyster]

I will definitely test it in that case

[lean zodiac]

BET

[tribal kernel]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/951210857260527646/1124510127408558152/-1944f484254383a8.gif

[rugged trench]

:O

[rocky crypt]

Idk if Kung can move channels, might have to poke Tupper

Kung does not have Admin role

[rugged trench]

really looking forward to testing the neck/spine/chest IK improvement out, that was/is the only major thing that just didn't look right

[rotund vessel]

I wonder how this'll affect my usage of the Standable "fake" FBT simulator for SteamVR

[oak pendant]

Yeah, will have to poke Tupper about that. I'd probably break something if I had that role tbh

[rocky crypt]

😆 fair fair

Tupper, Sach or Spark have that role

[wooden lion]

Connecting too many SteamVR devices should no longer prevent the last few devices from being usable (unless you have 64 devices!). Note: this doesn't mean 64-point tracking! This is addressing setups where having many base stations or other devices caused some trackers to not be recognized.
um i want all 33 vertebrae in my spine tracked thanks

[devout current]

poof the entire server is gone