quest-development

[gusty ember]

Did you add extra physbones to them before it happened?
It removes them all if you add too many on Quest.

Yeah it does that

No clue without seeing your project, maybe duplicated armature?

[autumn radish]

Are you only putting the physbones on the root bones in each chain or on additional bones?

I remember during the beta some people were putting a physbone on each bone individually, which is not what you are supposed to do outside of select circumstances.

[warm tinsel]

Apparently, they did fix this. Turns out blender was adding Leaf bones on export and that was causing it to skyrocket in count. Figured I'd let you know.

I responded to them as well in the Quest Avatars server.

[autumn radish]

Ah yeah that'll do it. I had that happen when I imported an FBX to work on. Blender added leaf bones to the leaf bones. It was as frustrating as it was hilarious.

[warm tinsel]

What's wild is how quickly they add up...

[autumn radish]

Yup

[raven jackal]

So I'm workin on a bowling world and god the bowling prefabs uv map for textures is. God why

[quick marlin]

@teal canyon @lusty rapids @lethal junco can one of you please for the love of God give just a simple yes or no on this im so sick hear different things from so many no drama no flaming no spamming am I going to lose my ability to use my full body since I use open space calibration though steamVR just a simple yes or no pls

[lucid holly]

N

Bro ur tweekin

If you want banned just talk about how to get mods

Easy

[raven jackal]

You should be fine

[wraith jewel]

Is it a glitch if you cant block someone's avatar but can block everyone elses

[bronze viper]

I don't think this is the right place to ask but I'mma ask because there doesn't seem to be a proper channel for it. I play VRC on my Vive Focus Plus on standalone, i assume its in the same vein as the Quest build. Yesterday it asked me to use the latest version. No updates are available. Is Vive Focus Plus still be supported?

[karmic girder]

Probably not. Vrc isnt into supporting its users

[raw arch]

Anything through Steam should still work on VR, if it doesn't then it might be a glitch and they are working on it

[brazen oyster]

What happened?

[lofty sand]

Quick question, I've just updated my SDK and everything

I thought audio sources were allowed on quest but my SDK is saying it's not allowed

Is Audio actually allowed now or?

I also thought that light sources work now as well but it also says it doesn't

This is all for an avatar upload btw

[fair tinsel]

neither of those are allowed on avatar quest because they're to performance expensive

[lofty sand]

Huhhh????

Lots of avatars that I've seen on quest have had both of them on it

Guess there's a new modified SDK then

[fair tinsel]

https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/quest-content-limitations#components

[lofty sand]

Again, I've seen it on multiple avatars on quest

I'm just assuming there's a modified SDK people have been using for that

I appreciate your help tho

[fair tinsel]

would be against terms of service and could get you banned using a modded SDK

[lofty sand]

Never even said that I'm using it, simply making an observation

I don't like nodded SDKs for that reason alone

[fair tinsel]

and if it's helpful reference to many audio sources have outright crashed the quest 2 which is why no audio sources on avatars officially

[lofty sand]

Gotcha

[fair tinsel]

and real-time lights are very expensive for the mobile processor as it would basically like make the Avatar like two times or more expensive

[autumn radish]

I've heard that audio sources used to be allowed in the early days of Quest, but audio-source abuse, and the fact that audio in general has regularly been a performance issue on [VRChat for] Quest, historically, it was removed.

You can still see the remnants of it in the safety options, as there's a toggle for avatar audio even though modern avatars cannot use it on Quest.

[sweet tundra]

Also some audio compression formats just flat out crash the quest… so…

Yeah I think this is for the best.

[autumn radish]

Are VRC Unity Players suddenly broken for anyone else?

I feel like I'm going mad; was messing with things that did break them time to time, but I removed all the objects and reverted my world to an earlier state. Yet video still doesn't play.

And ADB spits out a cryptic error periodically as if its trying to play but the video isnt decoding?

[autumn radish]

HAHAHA nevermind I just wasted an entire day because Jinnai at some point broke whilst I had also broken my player, so I was under the impression it was something I did still.

Just tested with a direct MP4 URL and... it's fine. RIP.

[tepid canyon]

does audio link work for quest worlds?

[frozen canopy]

no

[frigid vortex]

Does anyone know how to do hue on quest avatars? I know how to do the animation but it doesn't seem to work for me

[hexed estuary]

Am I the only one having issues with loading portals and my avatars bugging out?

[zinc epoch]

anyone know why it makes this error?

its in unity after i import the avatar sdk

[half pier]

Wrong Unity version

[zinc epoch]

alr

thx

[zinc epoch]

k i downloaded the correct one and it has the same error and 2 more

[glossy flicker]

Question on Youtube in Unity/AVPro Players on Quest:
(And please let me know if it is allowed to bring up the topic here (Bare with me))
I understood that Quest does need direct file link to play. Some players seem to have worked around this restriction by relaying through external server (it running youtube-dl with either -g or local download).
That server seemed to have broken down. So no chance to watch in VRChat on Quest.
Anyone around or anyone to discuss this and go into details to make this work again? I actually tried to rebuild that functionality on a server (youtube-dl/scripting) however I ran into problems I cant solve at the moment. Love to exchange with others interested and engaged in that matter too. Is this the place here or can anyone forward me?

[frigid vortex]

Would anyone have any idea why the avatar is appearing white in game? This is on quest - the shaders used are standard lite/toon lit

Only some are as you can see the shoes/body is fine but the rest is losing it's texture and turning white

[dull chasm]

I too would like to know of any current work arounds for this.

[autumn radish]

Huh. So the reason XR plugins seem to break worlds is because the XR plugin defaults to Multi-pass.

I just did a test out of curiosity with it set to "Multiview" (Single-Pass) and it worked.

Which... makes sense. Multi-pass renders the objects for each eye, whereas they are duplicated from the left eye in Single Pass.

...which means anyone who upgrades to XR and doesn't select multi-view is compiling shaders which will fail to render the right eye in-client.

[autumn radish]

Being said there's no OpenVR XR plugin so I have not the slightest clue if it'd work for PC builds (then again, people uploading these broken XR worlds have to been playing it successfully somehow?)

[glossy flicker]

Hey there. My conclusions so far. The players in VRChat on Quest native(!) do not allow youtube-links. Only direct links to video files. + Copy/Pasting something in on Quest natively is cumbersome.
What worked in the past was that users running on VRChat PCVR (Quest or not) were able to enter a youtube-link into the player. This worked as VRChat on PC has a component Quest has not: youtube-dl. A library that talks to youtube in the background and retrieves a direct link. (Keyword: Link Resolver).
That link then is passed to the VRChat Player and works. .. on PC as on Quest (as the RESOLVED LINK is synced to the native Quest users). So all can enjoy the party.

Why cant we just enter the Resolved Link, or store it permanently. Well, the resolves links are dynamic. This means they are only valid a certain time and expire. So you have to fetch it quite close in time you want to watch the Video.
So though the above allows for Quest users to (also) enjoy a video. There is little way to them to initiate a new video. (As a www.youtube.com/watch?v=....) is not a direct video link and cant be resolved on Quest anyway.
Some folks have build a workaround by setting up a kind of relay web server that retrieves the desired youtube-link, does the link resolution and return the direct video file link.
I dont have the web server name at hand, but its something like https://www.t-nx.net/?url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=.......
So by entering that address into the Quest VRChat video player it returns back the direct link for that moment to play.
This is - as far as my knowledge - the way almost all video players that work on quest act. Especially when you walk into a room and there is a video directly playing or you have a set of presets.
......

[glossy flicker]

..... This gets you to another (new) situation: Quest VRChat now has Copy+Paste buttons on Keyboard. So what you can do is copy+paste a URL in, from a list or so.. HOWEVER: You have to enter a resolved link (resolved shortly before, see Expiration note above) OR a link to a dynamic link resolver in the format similar to the above example.

Think back: I guess you never had entered a youtube like directly into a Quest native VRChat video player, correct? It was always via PCVR and then the resolved link worked. 😉

The world I am working on (Disclaimer: buggy, premature!!!) has it working with presets that call the external link resolver. Check out 'My World Club'

Next step is to have a textbox to enter the URL (I lately broke it)

Hope this helps?!

[mental parrot]

So sounds work on quest now right? Do I just upload an avatar normally for them to work?

[fair tinsel]

Avatar sounds are not available on Quest avatars because too many of them crashes the headset

[mental parrot]

alright thanks

[wintry tendon]

Whenever I switch to an avatar, I am not in first person and looking above the avatar, and I cannot move their hands, then if I switch to another it’s normal, is there a way to fix this?

[raven jackal]

So you have this models blend files? It may be vertex painted white, which in standard lite shaders overrides the colors..try toonlit to see if that's the problem

[frigid vortex]

No sorry, the issue was my animation was forcing the material back to poiyomi

All fixed now :)

[raven jackal]

Yea poiyomi can be finicky sometimes, glad you figured it out tho

[barren thunder]

Since the quest 2 can handle more then the quest why not just stop making VRChat for the Q1. and just add more performance updates to the Q2 instead, it can handle more then the Q1, so this is only a suggestion, I think it is good if you stop making Vrc for the Q1 and only for Q2 so you can add more functionality and optimisation

[gusty ember]

The Q1's performance in VRChat was only tolerated because it was the only way to play it standalone.
The experience was very laggy and poor, pretty much unusable.
The Q2 made the performance and experience good enough, but it still isn't great.

Removing support for the Q1 isn't going to make performance better for the Q2, the limiter for performance is, and always will be, the avatar and world creators.

Which means there is essentially no way for the VRC devs to optimize specifically for the Q2, or higher performance headsets.

Honestly better if faster standalone headsets just mean that the experience gets smoother, because Quest does not have a very smooth experience.

[forest viper]

Why is there sound for quest but its also not actually

And just asking can you fix the mirrors when I’m a big avatar I can’t see myself in a mirror

[fair tinsel]

are you referring to sound effects on avatars

[forest viper]

Yes its weird

[fair tinsel]

basically some people were using illegal sdks to upload sound effects on their avatars even though they're not supposed to

[forest viper]

K

[wraith jewel]

you can't call it illegal

there is a better term for that

[random shore]

It's not ilegal sdks due. You have the wrong info. Idk how to do it myself and my avatars dont have sounds so no interested someone told me more less. Its all about knowing basic game development in unity and using that to make audio thats not on mp3

[wraith jewel]

as i said

those sdks are not illegal

ur mentioning the wrong person

[random shore]

oh sorry i didnt noticed

[fair tinsel]

https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/quest-content-limitations#components

[random shore]

rainwolf you dont need to tell me the limitations. i make quest avatars

but currently there is a way on unity 2019 that lets you make audios that are not as a audio source

which allows the SDK to upload them

im saying this trying to remember what my friend explained to me i honestly didnt care cuz i dont use audio on avatars eitherway i find them even on pc avatar annoying sometimes and not necessary

[balmy blaze]

Could anyone provide me some guidance on what size materials are optimal for quest? I'll be doing atlasing and I'm not sure what resolution to pack things to.

[wraith jewel]

2048x2048 is the highest you should really go

[balmy blaze]

Would you consider that a goal? Should I pack four 1024 textures into one 2048 or just use the four individually

[wraith jewel]

you should combine them, yes

[opal jewel]

I would play around with the texture size for optimization! Anything past 2048 honestly looks the same, I would stick to 1024 and lower but switch debating on details and how blurry they end up looking!

[balmy blaze]

I've got my textures on say 1024 already. The question is if it's cheaper to combine them into one larger images that's the material for more objects or send more materials in smaller sizes.

[opal jewel]

I would definitely recommend combining

[balmy blaze]

Yeah, I'm just curious where I stop. Does quest get inefficient at handling textures over 2k? Or should I mash every object in a scene into an 8k for instance

[gusty ember]

Textures take up VRAM, 8k textures takes up a ton of it.
However the more individual textures you have, the more draw calls you get, with each separate texture/material and mesh being its own draw call, draw calls are extremely expensive and you want as few as possible, especially on Quest.

[raven jackal]

Yea the way got patched ages ago, but a modded sdk is needed now

[lament owl]

IIRC the client won't load textures over 2k, it'll load (at most) the 2k version

[raw ledge]

my god this no notification bug is so fucking annoying

it's bugging me to no end

[small heart]

Same

[coral goblet]

Anyone else having trouble with oculus software update?

Like when I load up my oculus app on pc it only brings up a grey screen and nothing else

I tried calling to login on the app but it seems to not be working for me either

[fossil sorrel]

Anyone else having issues when changing avatars where it makes you walk around like a PC user, and the camera is messed up?

[wraith jewel]

Considering quest players can take pics with the vrc camera provided when do you think we will get the chance to record with it. After all the images get straight sent to our file viewer on meta quest. I feel vids would be to.

[tired matrix]

Uninstal and re install ur game should fix it

[fossil sorrel]

I did that, it went right back within half an hour of playing the game

[tired matrix]

srry then idk cause mine hasnt done hat

ull just have to keep installing uninstalling

[wraith jewel]

So I just updated my game and I can’t do anything in the game without getting a the oculus loading screen (black with 3 dots).

When I first opened the game after the update, I logged in and was told I had to do a tutorial. Once the tutorial world loaded, I got the black screen so I tried relaunching the game, reinstalling it, restarting my wifi and nothing worked. So I just waited on the black screen and it finally worked. But then I tried changing avatars and got the black screen again

?

[wraith jewel]

I literally can’t play the game can someone help me

[coral goblet]

im having a similar issue but this time anytiem i launch oculus pc app it just loads a grey screen

[ripe marlin]

Does anyone else have photos in portrait mode not showing up. When I take a picture in portrait mode it just shows all black in the photo. I can take pics. Just not portrait ones.

[brazen olive]

I think the keyboard for me is bugged out for the request invite and invite buttons because when I was trying to backspace it wouldn’t delete.

[sinful lily]

I fond an issue report that is possibly identical of yours. https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1222quest-rotated-picture-is-broken

[wraith jewel]

its saying android is not supported how do i fix it

[safe abyss]

make it android supported

[wraith jewel]

I fixed it

[wraith jewel]

where can i edit the vrc avatar descriptor

nvm

[tardy widget]

I’ve been having the same problem with every keyboard except the chat box

[wraith jewel]

Making quest world for the first time. Does object count matter much if they're all static? Does quest hangle post processing at all?

[gusty ember]

Static isn't the same thing as if they were all the same mesh, so yes, it does matter.

So, it is just a good idea to make everything that is meant to be static in Blender, or other 3d modelling program.

And Quest cannot do post processing.

[wraith jewel]

So if i upload a quest world with post proc will it crash the quest or something? Or will the sdk just not let me upload.

[gusty ember]

It won't let you upload, here is the list https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/quest-content-limitations#components

[wraith jewel]

understandable have a nice day

[wraith jewel]

Hello am I allowed to ask very noobish questions in here? I will try my chance!

I am creating a world with Unity, and I can not figure out how to test it locally on my Oculust Quest 2, I tried many different ways, but it always end up opening VRchat on my Desktop. I have the Oculus app on my machine, and my Oculus is linked via USB-C cable.

Thanks before hand for the answer

[grand horizon]

It's not possible sadly, you'd have to push an update to test any android exports

[wraith jewel]

Thank you for your answer.
I guess I can just try it on my Desktop then.
Have a nice day

[warm tinsel]

You could always run a beta version that's private. Upload to that and test. When it's ready to go, swap BP ID's, push update.

[warm tinsel]

This is what I do, anyway.

[muted garden]

can anyone help me with an avatar thing you can see my post in #avatar-help

[dire pawn]

Sometimes my character gets stuck and i cant open my oculus menu

[teal shoal]

I recommend this too. This will always be my go-to since you get to test the android point of view(if you have quest).

[vapid lotus]

When will vrchat also support the pico-vr as standalone?

[tough valley]

I'm getting this error when publishing for android which doesnt seem to make sense, anybody have a fix/work around?

The build/test button is greyed out obvs

[grand horizon]

does changing a directional lights' in runtime color cause it to stop working?

it works fine in the editor but in quest it's pitch-black

[grand horizon]

I'm absolutely clueless on this one, even a regular non-changing realtime directional light isn't working here

It has worked before in every other world I did this in

Unity development I guess :(

World's gonna be removed im done with this lksdfj
9/24/2022 EDIT::: The skybox was like, negative brightness. doing max(0.0, col) fixed it

[spiral jacinth]

wasnt sure where else to put this so im putting it here until i get yelled at
so im a questie and a lot of avatars have been showing up as errors. i try to wear them and they're errors. others wear them and they're errors. what do

[grand horizon]

@spiral jacinth It might be that they're pc-only avatars

Check the little blue+green icon when you select them, green means it's quest compatible

[spiral jacinth]

they’re all quest compatible. hell half of them are avatars i used to use fairly often @grand horizon

then again vrc is kinda breaking again. i can’t go to certain worlds that are quest compatible that my quest friends go to and i cant edit invite messages

[grand horizon]

Huh, that's very weird

Are you using the latest version?

[spiral jacinth]

i believe so

its been happening for days

[peak abyss]

does anyone know why specifically the vrchat shaders are showing up pink on the teeth here? all my other textures are working fine, but specifically on the teeth, it seems to continuously tint whatever applied to this specific part of the mesh, this is how it looks with toon lit

and how the texture is supposed to look while on the pc shader i use

[night path]

Check if your avatar has any vertex colors. IIRC all the mobile shaders use the vertex colors as a color input.

[heavy linden]

But why.?!.

Can it just not.?.

I’m just putting grab Prop and putting the prop back on my back. But why is Android wanting to remove my Receiver? That’s literally going to brake it.
I’ve already seen a bunch of other avatars with prop grabbing fetters, so unless I missed something, or there doing something different, that I don’t now about?

[silent lance]

Does anyone know how to make it so I can swap between 3 different avatar skins via the little wheel thing

[gusty ember]

Shouldn't be removing the reciever, but sounds like you are using contraints, which it is complaining about.
Which Quest avatars aren't allowed to have.

[night path]

Quest avatars don't support Unity constraints

[wraith jewel]

Please give us world constraints and screenspace shader access

[night sigil]

if by screenspace you mean these avatar distortion shaders that some people use to annoy others, it's likely that will not be supported for android since grabpass is a performance heavy function and it will probably be used to annoy players in the lobby too

[knotty schooner]

Hello I’m trying to make my world compatible with the quest, but when I switch to android build it gets hung up at 99 percent, even if I leave it for 12+ hours. I tried restalls of unity, and have all the android SDK stuff, also I’ve already compressed my textures and lightmaps and removed all real-time lights. What could be causing this?

[knotty schooner]

I have tried freeing up hard drive space and compressed more textures in the assets folder maybe it was too large and ran out of memory, it’s about half way now

[wraith jewel]

Any tips why quest blocking links from youtube in vrchat video player in quest version. Is there any way to fix that ?

[gusty ember]

Quest isn't blocking, VRChat just can't include the thing, yt-dlp, that is the reason you can watch it on PC.
That is why you need a direct link to the video.

The solution is to use a resolver, like Nextnex https://nextnex.com/

Extension that simplifies things -> https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/vrchat-jinnai/jfgmcnhhlcebpcnpghfoeippgpaadanm?hl=en

Or hosting your own using https://github.com/techanon/vroxy.

[wraith jewel]

@gusty ember thanks a lot 🙂

[wraith jewel]

My vrchat is broken I can't log in becaus3 it ways that I can't go there when I log in I press ok and it pops up agian

[lethal socket]

need help

[umbral socket]

Which version of Unity are you using? It should be 2019.4.31f1

[tame jacinth]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629852835261186099/1027035802259165255/unknown.png I've been spending a while trying to figure out what this error message means. It won't let me upload quest content. What am I missing?

[bronze tide]

still stuck?

[tame jacinth]

Reloading the SDK seemed to do the trick in getting it uploaded. I also didn't have the android module installed for unity. All better now!

[bronze tide]

ah, nice!

[wraith jewel]

I check that and still is blocking videos from youtube 😦

[gusty ember]

Do you have untrusted URLs turned on in settings?

[wraith jewel]

In menu there is no option to check about untrusted urls

[gusty ember]

In non-beta it is in the big menu in settings on the left side.

In the beta I haven't checked

And here it is in the beta

[wraith jewel]

I check and is allowed but still blocking 😛

[gusty ember]

Well then it is either jinnai or a problem on your side.

[timber summit]

@gusty ember help me

[wraith jewel]

Is there any other way ?

[gusty ember]

Just to rule out if it Jinnai or not I am going to DM you the Vroxy instance I run.

[wraith jewel]

👍

[gusty ember]

What do you need help with?

[timber summit]

bro evrything

[gusty ember]

Can't be much of help unless you can specify

[timber summit]

cani dm call u buddy

[gusty ember]

Not got time to do step by step walkthroughs.
Just ask in #quest-general or something, people usually pop in to help.

[wraith jewel]

Does anyone know how to add particles and sound to a Quest avatar?

I’m trying to make an avatar that has working guns and plays music.

[sweet tundra]

You can't add sound to Quest avatars.
As for particles, you can do so via just adding a particle system. There are heavy limits to those btw, including no transparency, and going over any of the limits will remove all particle systems for everyone on quest no matter their settings (more info: https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/avatar-performance-ranking-system#quest-limits, https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/avatar-performance-ranking-system#minimum-displayed-performance-rank).

[wraith jewel]

Then, why have I seen multiple avatars with cross platform audio?

[sweet tundra]

Likely breaking tos

It's not officially supported due to some audio formats crashing the quest

[wraith jewel]

I don’t really care about breaking tos, I just wanna know how I can add cross platform audio.

Also, I have avatars with quest audio that perform fine.

[sweet tundra]

I don’t really care about breaking tos

Also audio is incredibly expensive

[wraith jewel]

Wdym?

[sweet tundra]

You know how the game slows down a lot with many people in a single instance?

That's mainly because of audio

(and other networking stuff but audio has a major impact)

[wraith jewel]

I generally avoid instances that have more than 20 people unless one of my friends is there.

[sweet tundra]

Okay, but 20 people means 20 audio sources, each create a lot of computational expense on what is essentially a phone, and if you let each person have avatar audio, even just one source per person, we're back down at Quest 1 limits

Which is ~10 people at 40fps tops

[wraith jewel]

Are you gonna tell how I can do it, or did you only reply to say that I can’t?

[sweet tundra]

I don't know how to do it

Even if I knew, telling you would get me banned

[wraith jewel]

If I can’t have cross platform audio without breaking tos, then maybe it should be changed.

[sweet tundra]

It's a miracle the game even runs on the quest, and they're already stretching Meta guidelines about framerates

[wraith jewel]

Ok, but I don’t think VRChat had guidelines in mind when they added something that nobody wanted or needed.

And yes, I’m talking about EAC

[sweet tundra]

I'm not.

That's completely irrelevant in this conversation.

Anyway, if you really want avatar audio on quest

This server is not the place to find that information

[wraith jewel]

Well, I assumed I would find someone who knows how since I’ve seen about ten avatars with working quest audio, and only one of them got removed.

[sweet tundra]

The only way to get quest avatar audio is modding your sdk, which I can't help you with because tos and rule 9 of this server

[wraith jewel]

You don’t have to tell me in server chat.

[sweet tundra]

I don't know how to do it anyway

[wraith jewel]

Wow

You know

[sweet tundra]

I did say this before btw

[wraith jewel]

This could’ve been avoided if you had just ignored the message altogether

[sweet tundra]

I answered your original question, and then we went from there ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[wraith jewel]

I didn’t ask if I could, I asked how I could

I never said anything about tos

And I never said anything about not wanting to break tos

[sweet tundra]

Usually people here don't break tos

[wraith jewel]

I haven’t either

[sweet tundra]

nor do they want to

I gave the answer that, from my experience, would fit most what most people ask

[wraith jewel]

What would working quest audio even fall under in tos?

[sweet tundra]

As I said, you need a modded sdk, so the modding part

Wherever that is... I just know it's in there.

[fair tinsel]

the vrchat terms of service does not allow you to modify the client or the SDK in anyway

[wraith jewel]

Did I fucking ask about tos??

[fair tinsel]

yes you are literally asking what was being broke by using Quest audio

[wraith jewel]

If you use the feature known commonly as “scroll up,” you will se that this was originally about how I can get quest audio. My original question never said anything about tos or getting banned.

And if one more person mentions tos, I will fire my M32 into oncoming traffic.

I shouldn’t have to fear getting banned just because VRChat can’t be bothered to add cross platform audio.

I just want to make a Hotline Miami avatar. Is that too much to FUCKING ASK?

[wraith jewel]

I know several fucking avatars I know of with working cross platform audio and I will list them all right now if I have to.

[fair tinsel]

that doesn't really change anything listing them out nobody here can tell you how to do Quest audio

[wraith jewel]

They exist, and only one of them has been removed.

[fair tinsel]

yes because vrc can only remove stuff that's been reported

[wraith jewel]

So you’re saying that it’s only a problem for VRChat if it’s a problem for players?

[fair tinsel]

well they can't actively check every single Avatar

[wraith jewel]

Exactly

[fair tinsel]

so honestly listing your avatars would do the opposite of what you would want

[wraith jewel]

So the odds of me being successful are pretty high

[fair tinsel]

well you are lowering your odds by talking about it

[wraith jewel]

Does it sound like I care?

[fair tinsel]

well the point being nobody is going to tell you

[wraith jewel]

I just want a good Hotline Miami avatar and if I have to break tos to get it, I fucking will.

[wraith jewel]

Nobody here

[fair tinsel]

well you can't enjoy your avatar if you're banned from the game

[wraith jewel]

I can’t enjoy the game if it’s not worth enjoying

When was the last time people agreed to an update that removed things?

EAC was titled the “security update” and it ironically made things worse

They threw a temper tantrum over something that only a handful of mods did and responded by doing something nobody wanted, needed, or agreed with

VRChat is literally putting avatar audio on the same level as avatars that intentionally crash people.

[fair tinsel]

well they can crash the quest out right

and you run into problems of like okay one more person joins the room suddenly put putting your audio Source into crashing territory which was fine previously

[wraith jewel]

That’s why there’s fucking SAFETY SETTINGS

[fair tinsel]

you cannot disable very poor with the safety settings on Quest

[wraith jewel]

I still end up turning avatars on even on the lowest safety settings.

[fair tinsel]

and like vrchat has pretty much hit the ceiling as far as what they can safely do with Quest avatars with Avatar Dynamics so I don't see them allowing audio source anytime soon

[fair tinsel]

yes and that's a good way to crash yourself showing very poor avatars

[wraith jewel]

Most of the very poor ones I’ve seen have that rank because optimizing them would require what makes them good

Quest audio has been done in avatars without causing problems before.

If they wanted to allow Quest audio, they would let the community decide how it’s done to avoid pissing people off.

[fair tinsel]

personally I don't consider avatars that like put on 50 toggles to be a good thing even on PC

[fair tinsel]

well for sure they couldn't allow uncapped amount of audio sources

[wraith jewel]

That’s the thing

They don’t care about what the players want anymore.

That’s why VRChat is dying in the first place

[fair tinsel]

I also wouldn't surprise me if vrchat has harsher what constitutes run well compared to most of the community

[fair tinsel]

vrchat isn't dying school is starting up so a lot of the quest kids can't be on as much as they have been during the summer

[wraith jewel]

Look at steam reviews for VRChat in 2020 and compare to reviews in 2022

With one update, it went from mostly positive to overwhelmingly negative

[fair tinsel]

that's not the same thing as it dying it's not like bleeding users left and right

and honestly easyanticheat conversation 11 kajillion doesn't have much to do with Quest development

[tight grove]

Can we get like something that allows avatar audio all the time

Where like we don’t have to rejoin to hear avatar audio

[fair tinsel]

do you mean the voice audio or sound effects on avatars

[tight grove]

Avatars

[primal gazelle]

I don't think quest avatars having audio is actually supported as far as I'm aware, so any quest audio in terms of avatars is going to be buggy, in general

[sweet tundra]

It’s not due to some formats crashing the quest, and the fact that audio is very cpu intensive

[rare basin]

I just want quest audio again

[sweet tundra]

wasn’t officially there to begin with

[mint charm]

avatars w audio for quest use a modded sdk

which is against tos, so probably not happening anytime soon tbh

[wraith jewel]

Is it true what I’ve heard about the higher avatar upload limit for quest?

[gusty ember]

That it was a mistake in a beta build, yes.

Quest is not getting a higher avatar upload limit, it is not something many people think of, but Quest has a tiny amount of RAM and loading in a ton of avatars (and an often unoptimized world) fills that up really quickly, it is one of the major causes behind crashing.

[wraith jewel]

I’d think it would be good to at least have a 10mb increase

[gusty ember]

They would have to make crunch compression disallowed before they could do that.
In that 10MB extra size you could fit half a GB of texture memory (at worst actually more like 1 GB) and once again Quest only has 6GB RAM in total.

[vapid lotus]

When will VRChat also supports more than just Quest Standalone Headsets?
For example, why they not just reuse all the Quest Assets and their ranking System, also for alternative Platforms, like the Pico 4?
It even has the same: "Qualcomm Snapdragon XR2" Processor like the Quest, so I think it should have a good compatibility already...

So I think, they don't even have to make a third Platform, just rank every other XR2 Headset in the same category like the Quest is already.

(Especially where Meta makes so many bad decisions and the alternatives mop up the bad implementations that Meta can't get right.)

[gusty ember]

VRChat doesn't share much about their plans so for all we know they could already be working on it, assuming Pico wants VRChat on their store.

But what makes it much harder is that VRChat isn't using OpenXR, so they would need to spend dev time converting the Quest version to Pico and then supporting it as a semi-separate branch.

[vapid lotus]

how hard is that, if 2 different headseads, shares the same CPU?

[gusty ember]

The CPU isn't the problem, it is the operating system.
Sure, both Quest and Pico use Android as a base (I think Pico does anyway), but the things built on top won't be implemented similarly, things that need to be tested with each version of VRChat to make sure nothing breaks.

And seems like Pico might require apps to use OpenXR, which is a huge task since it requires rewriting a ton of things, OpenXR is basically a compatibility layer, but that means everything goes into it and that requires a ton of work and testing.

[vapid lotus]

What I can say is, I would love to see Pico Standalone in VRChat and maybe the could rename "Quest Avatar" to "Android Avatar" or something that tells that not only Quest would be the only possible Headset without a PC. especially like I told in a time where meta is having a really bad reputation and even the Quest 3 leaks does not look good at all... Hardware Developers gets lazy, if they don't have to fear a congruence that can mean Intel VS AMD or also Meta VS Pico...

I think the move to OpenXR was long overdue and the longer we wait the harder the move will be in the future when at some point the work should become too cumbersome and expensive to work without this simplified compatibility layer.

[vapid lotus]

I think at the latest when the Pico is not only sold in Europe, but also in the USA, it will be a very, very tough conguration for Meta Quest and many will eventually switch entirely where they are not forced to connect their accounts and where the gaming experience can also be longer than max. only 1.5 - 2 hours... (because of the batteries)

I don't think it's more a question of a "if", but much more a question of when.

[gusty ember]

Obviously.
They have to do it eventually, just because VRChat is older than OpenXR doesn't mean they can sleep on it.

And personally, I think they should rename the platform from "Quest" to "Standalone".

[gusty ember]

As said, the only road block would be Pico/Bytedance, if they are fine with VRChat then it doesn't make any sense why VRC wouldn't come to the Pico store.

[forest owl]

getting these errors while trying to convert my world to quest any suggestions?

[forest hollow]

anyonde know why urls wont load on quest native
[1:46 AM]
allowing untrusted links and cleared cache

[vale sierra]

just remove the standard assets folder, you can't use them in sdk3 worlds anyway, and the error is from one of the scripts, probably not compatible on android

[vale sierra]

what kind of url link is it? quest native cannot load youtube by itself and needs a 3rd party resolver

[forest hollow]

it is youtube

how do i get a resolver

[vale sierra]

the publicly available one is https://nextnex.com/
or you can self host with https://github.com/techanon/vroxy

[hushed portal]

would be nice if yall add stuff in accessibility for blind and deaf like close caption or see to text chat and also transcribe which basically help a blind person see things while theyre pointing their avatar head in a specific direction.

we need more disbility assistance since we cant use mod now since it against vrchat tos

[tight grove]

I agree

[tidal bridge]

hi guys, is there any plan to include facial tracking for Meta Quest Pro?, also, there will be a mode for Meta Quest Pro to use that extra power/ram and allow to use better avatars and not too restricted?

[fair tinsel]

they're unlikely to change the Avatar restrictions because the majority of the user base would be on Quest 2

and the power boost is not enough to overcome what mobile Hardware is bad at

[gusty ember]

More power means VRC won't run as awfully on Quest, content rankings are very unlikely to change, because both not enough of a difference in power (and architectural capability) and that they would need to make a new, more complicated, ranking system to handle it, which I don't think they are going to do for this headset.

The RAM will probably be useful though, the 6GB on the Q2 is very much not enough for user unoptimized content.

And facial tracking is a big we have no idea and the VRC team doesn't often mention their plans, except for dev logs, which they relatively recently started doing. There hasn't been any mentions about facial tracking in them in a long time, if at all.

[fair tinsel]

well for one they can't start making plans for the quest Pro until they have one

[gusty ember]

Very true.

And probably no SDK support for it either I'd guess, unless they were sent one by "Meta".

[olive moss]

Does anyone know what setup the colour buffer for the main camera is on quest?
Main things I want to know are, does the colour buffer support HDR and does it have an alpha channel?

[minor moth]

Hey, um so my mic keeps saying that I have an android mic and I couldn't find any other mics (for example headset mic or just any mic) on the oculus maybe someone can help me?

[safe copper]

20 second rant

I don't mind quest avatars have to be lower poly. But I am very sad that shaders and transparency are completely disabled

rant over

[fair tinsel]

allowing arbitrary shaders could melt the quest

[safe copper]

Yeah. There's just no way to tell how much performance impact a shader can have, so I understand their choice to disable them

[fair tinsel]

yes somebody could load a avatar Shader that does software Ray tracing

[tough egret]

does the "contacts" feature work on Quest?

[fair tinsel]

yes all of Avatar Dynamics works on Quest

you just have a hard cap on how much you can use

[wraith jewel]

hi

[nimble egret]

Hello

[round valve]

how i disable quality limit for map skybox

[dusk flicker]

i was wondering if anyone has an updated version of quest tools and if this is the correct space to ask for it ?

[vestal mantle]

Quick question guys. I would like to know a little bit of importing movies into vrchat. There is many worlds that have this type of feature, and I would like to know more about it. Thinking about putting it into my world, but I want to first know how do they even host these movies, where do they find them, and most importantly is it not money heavy.

[gusty ember]

Would you be willing to give up being able to use crunch compression?
Because they have to keep memory usage down, to keep the Quest from crashing.

[wraith jewel]

Does anyone know how to properly program a TV for vr chat I been following tutorials and it won't play in world on pc or quest

[gusty ember]

It is pretty much drag and drop assuming it doesn't say that scripts are missing if you click on it.

Otherwise I have had problems myself with video players if they are turned off by default, my fix is instead having its toggle udon script run whenever the local player joins as well.

[wraith jewel]

How do I do that

[wraith jewel]

I did drag and drop it then I went to play and test the video worked fine then I uploaded and the video simply doesn't play

[gusty ember]

After upload did you try it in Quest VRChat?

Because pretty much no links work by default on Quest, you need a direct link to the video or the use of a resolver like http://nextnex.com/.

What a resolver does is convert a youtube video link into a link pointing directly to the video.

[wraith jewel]

So I use that then I can use the resulting url as the url for the video in the player?

[wraith jewel]

It still didn't work

[wraith jewel]

Just realized that if I want to use finger controls, I need to go to settings and turn it on

Also, go to settings in comfort and the finger turning is off

[faint cypress]

I have two friends who both play on a quest one, I play on a quest 2. One of my friends who play on a quest one keep crashing for certain worlds but work fine on other words(EX:movie & chill) while my other friend can join it with no problems. Is there a way to fix that?

[wraith jewel]

Does anyone know when the hand tracking will enter the live vrc?

[winter phoenix]

Once they got everything working and it is clear to use after beta work. It’s still in testing to ensure things are okay with it and have no faults. So when that is done, should be good to go. I don’t believe there is a timeframe.

[wraith jewel]

I hope its soon

My vr controllers broke like 6 months ago and im super hyped for it

[fair tinsel]

honestly considering this is experimental feature potentially a month or two

[wraith jewel]

Dabg

Dang

[zenith bear]

The youtube thing needs an external tool. Looking at that now.
Hand tracking wasn't done at integration, also researching that.
Hey VRCHAT, need an employee? Student running Unity, c#, c++, java, css, etc. Have a headset, and just a playthough see so many quick fixes.

[gaunt breach]

I wonder about this, though. Of course Quest Pro isn't that much more powerful - but on the other hand VRChat has seen some performance improvements since those limits were set originally. Especially the option to hide other avatars based on distance. I don't think the Quest Pro would run into performance issues rendering 2-3 typical PC avatars. I probably wouldn't want to use it as a replacement for my gaming PC setup, but it would help a great deal while travelling. Also the Quest 3 will come at one time, so arbitrary forcing limits onto the users without giving them any choice doesn't seem like the most future proof idea to me...

[fair tinsel]

most users aren't going to be using the quest Pro so doesn't make too much sense for vrchat to up the limit now

[gaunt breach]

the question is: couldn't Quest 1 for example handle talking to one friend in a simple world with a complex PC avatar? I do see an added value there...

[fair tinsel]

problem is Windows and Android run on completely different processors so Android vrchat is not capable of running a PC Avatar at all regardless of the performance concerns

as it hasn't been compiled for Android

[gaunt breach]

I see. I wasn't aware that the format of the avatars was this close to the actual hardware. I would have expected the format to be more like an FBX with some additional stuff thrown in. If you have to compile it for a specific platform anyways, it does indeed make sense to have different limits. Still a very unfortunate situation though :/

[proper mauve]

Hey, just a suggestion for the devs, could you set the hand tracking soo instead of your hands just disappearing and going to the character’s side that instead it keeps the hand in it’s last known position? I find the disappearing hand thing quite annoying

[next gale]

I agree, though it’d be nice to have it as a setting option for people to choose.

I also wanted to ask, in regards to the hand tracking, if it’d be possible for the motion to grab things be touching like the thumb to the middle, ring, and pinky while the pointer, whether down or up, could be used for trigger applications like with pens and guns. Rn there’s no way to shoot a gun or toggle the pen to write or not, and it’d be nice to not need to keep switching back and forth between hands and controllers for things like that

[stiff spindle]

While we’re on the subject, PLEASE add a way for the wheel to come up. It’s so inaccessible to people like me who need to use the chat box to communicate (I’m nonverbal).

[proper mauve]

It’s hard to do two actions at once per hand, simple actions are already less reliable enough

[wraith jewel]

how is the new quest going to change things?

[proper mauve]

Only for developers, but it changes nothing really

[proper mauve]

I would love a way to use the chat box with hand tracking somhow

[wraith jewel]

presumably the new quest will have significantly higher power and abilities. Will this mean that worlds/avatars will have 3 targets? PC, quest, new quest?

[fair tinsel]

we already know how that went with the quest to it's just going to stay PC and Quest as even when the quest 3 comes out there still going to be a long while while most people are still on the Quest 2

[sage zealot]

If I design an avatar for Quest, will it automatically be compatible with PC as well?

[fair tinsel]

you'll have to manually upload for both platforms

[silk thistle]

Hello, does anyone know why my avatar material appear differently than it does on Unity (for quest). I have a black jacket on my avatar it's black on unity as well but all my quest friends sees it in a bunch of weird white textures on it

[outer raptor]

is the material on the quest version the VRChat Standard Lite material?

[silk thistle]

Yea, it shows up as black on unity but white on quest

[outer raptor]

do you have vertex colors on the source mesh? the standard lite shader will automatically use those while the standard shader will not

[sage zealot]

I can’t just generate both at once? Or can I just make it for Quest, then build and export it twice with different settings without making any changes to the avatar?

[fair tinsel]

Unity can only be in one bill Target at a time so you would still need to quickly upload button for PC and Quest separately but yes you could reuse the quest quality avatar for PC

[silk thistle]

idk, it was working well at first

[outer raptor]

that doesn't really tell me much, obviously something changed

check to see if you have vertex colors on the jacket in blender; that'd be the most common reason why things would go wrong. then double check the material on the android version of the avatar and make sure the material is standard lite

[silk thistle]

Alright I'll give it a shot, thanks bro

[grand horizon]

what's the recommended max render texture size?

my paintable area is currently 2048x2048 but I want to know if making it higher could cause issues

[wraith jewel]

did u end up figuring it out

[tribal sphinx]

so i recently got an avatar and i’m learning on how to upload menus and toggles to the avatar that she came with and idk how it works can someone show me ? i only know how to add gogo and i use quest

[stiff spindle]

so like. everyone before me that has put a small amount of thought into it has requested this, but,
PLEASE for the love of god can we get the action menu / wheel for hand tracking? it’s more than just ease of access for expressions and emojis, it’s actually an accessibility flaw. i assume, like many, we know of mute players. a good portion of those players have disabilities (like myself) who make it either very difficult or not an option to talk. either adding the chat box to the wing menus or adding a button on the wing menus to open the action wheel (similar to PC where its on the UI, and can be controlled like it. also would request QOL with that system, but get what i get i suppose.)

https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/add-chat-for-hand-tracking-and-qol

[uneven spear]

you can just set one of your wings to Expression

and it's the same as the action menu

[stiff spindle]

chat.

if you read the thing you would know this isn’t about expressions, it’s about chat and accessibility flaws

[ocean dagger]

I 100% agree

[fluid gull]

Teaser for the new Castle Town update!

[olive summit]

Hello! I'm thinking about purchasing an asset from the unity asset store. Though I don't know which ones work with quest or just actual assets that are useful. Anyone have any recommendations?

[torn river]

Very Vague

[olive summit]

Oh it’s already taken care of XD I went into details with someone else.

[minor pumice]

the finger tracking on quest sucks for vechat

[wraith jewel]

It really does

I figured out the controlled but man is it ever hard to activate

[abstract viper]

Has everything to do with the quest

[wary oar]

It does not

It's awesome :3

If you do it right that is :3

I DO understand on how it can be a pain

[minor pumice]

it did when i tryed

[wary oar]

hmmm

[wraith jewel]

i guess this would go under quest devolpement but. Since we have hand tracking theoretically speaking couldnt we use the controllers as the feet for fbt on the quest alone? im not too educated in this but it sounds like it could work but youd need a third “tracking device” for the hip and a way for the controllers to have a mode for feet tracking

[fair tinsel]

the hand tracking and the controllers cannot be active at the same time

[wraith jewel]

welp theres the first flaw out of many

[fossil lynx]

so i have a friend who's trying to make an object trigger for world music on a quest world, problem is the music doesn't play, it seems to only work on pc

[gusty ember]

Youtube links only work on PC unless you use a resolver like https://nextnex.com/. (The most commonly used one)

Or find one hosted based on this github project https://github.com/techanon/vroxy

PC has yt-dlp which extracts a direct link to the video to play, Quest does not.
Think the official reason was that yt-dlp didn't have a version supported for Quest, but at the same time "Meta" would probably not have been all too happy with it.

Resolvers use yt-dlp to do the link extraction off device.

[fossil lynx]

interesting stuff.. I wouldn't know how to do most of this but its a start, thanks

[upper whale]

is there youtube video player support for Quest yet?

[gusty ember]

@upper whale
Read my message above.

And as it hasn't happened yet, it is unlikely to happen anytime soon because of the reasons also stated above.

[gusty ember]

Simple, just input youtube link into that website, it will give you a link that should work for Quest (nextnex, being the most popular one, seems to have issues with some people).
All the website does though is add the youtube link after the equals https://nextnex.com/?url=.

[upper whale]

and it still displays for PC simultaneously?

thx for taking the time to reply btw

[gusty ember]

I haven't checked, but video player seems to sync based on playtime, so as long as the videos are the same length (which they obviously are since they are the same video) it syncs correctly.

[upper whale]

that sounds like there would still be 2 video players

[gusty ember]

You might want to use networked IDs if you project isn't using it already, if the video payer doesn't load correctly then I am not sure what happens (it seems smarter than that, but networked IDs are smart to use anyhow)

[upper whale]

i mean to ask, could i throw an URL like that in UdonSharpVideoplayer and have it display correctly on PC and Quest with one and the same player?

[gusty ember]

Yes, it is synced.

[upper whale]

sweet, thanks for the info! I'll try this out soon

[gusty ember]

Quest and PC exist in different realities, kinda, which is why I refer to them like that.

[upper whale]

i think i understand what you mean

[dusk sigil]

Just wanted to ask if the tri limit for the excellent rating is 7500 tris or 5000 tris?

[fair tinsel]

the vrchat documentation would be more up-to-date than the medium article

[dusk sigil]

I reckon so, I guess I'll only know when I pass it (if I ever do, currently at a drought of ideas as I've done most of what I planned to do)

thanks!

[fair tinsel]

https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/avatar-performance-ranking-system#quest-limits

[wraith jewel]

[granite cypress]

how do i fix this

[wraith jewel]

third person

[wraith jewel]

i try to connected my oculus to pc bc it keep saying that the graphic doesn't support
vrchat
or oculus

[outer raptor]

if your pc is a laptop, it likely uses nvidia optimus to switch between the built-in gpu and discrete gpu and can't support VR. if not, sounds like you might need a driver update unless your hardware is truly ancient

[wraith jewel]

oh i will fixed it tmw

[wraith jewel]

are you taking about this

[upper whale]

is transperancy possible on quest yet or is it still huge performance hit?

[feral marlin]

Afaik no :/ bc vrc limits all quest models to use /mobile shaders

I think you can use /mobile/particles/ for "transparency" (more like translucent) but not on models (it wont let you upload)

[alpine dome]

All my windows do be holes tho

[gusty ember]

Is a hardware architecture problem, so not going to be efficient unless Qualcomm redesigns how the GPU works.

All the Quest can do right now is brute force it, which is why it is so intensive on the Quest.
It is allowed on worlds, but it isn't recommended and you shouldn't have a lot of it.

[copper orbit]

I originally asked on quest-general but I think it's better suited for here.

How nicely would OSC fbt and the quest's hand-tracking work together if you had trackers on the arms? Would the hands just reset to the default gesture when you put them behind your head and have the tracking work normally, or would there be some strange behaviour?

[turbid cairn]

when i make a pc and quest world Pick ups would be platform sided any way to fix?

[outer raptor]

what does "platform sided" mean and what does this have to do with cross-platform development

[turbid cairn]

meaning if quest picks up a pen

pc dont see

[outer raptor]

this happens because your scene hierarchy doesn't match between quest and pc. the scene hierarchy needs to be exactly the same for object sync to work.

[red briar]

Unless they don’t have the object sync on the object

🤷🏻‍♀️

[delicate folio]

Heyho!
Do I have to upload separate Windows world when I'm creating an Oculus-first world and both versions should be the same? Does Windows fallback to the Oculus version?

[outer raptor]

there's no such thing as an oculus-first world... pc can only run worlds built for pc, quest can only run worlds built for android. you can upload a world only for quest if you want, but windows users won't be able to use it

[delicate folio]

Ok. Thanks for the answer!

[hallow cloak]

Why are the face mirrors broken

[vapid lotus]

Why is my build sise just 7.9MB, if the Assets alone already have 10.3MB ?

And how did I got 8 animations from the left folder in my quest avatar with a final size of the avatar itself + 8 animations of the folder with just 7.9MB ?

[fair tinsel]

from what I recall it does some compression at upload time on quest?

[vapid lotus]

it feels like I have compress 1/4 Gigabyte of animations into 6MB.

If I had to guess, I would assume that VRChat knows which keynotes are unnecessary fillers and can get out and just only taking the most important transformation that tells where to start and end what bone in what moment... Am I possibly correct?

[fair tinsel]

I have no clue

[vapid lotus]

so, how the Hell did they compressed 1/4 gigabyte of animations into just 6MB that can fit without issues in my quest avatar ?

[pallid shell]

Ur hand tracking sucks, no offense, I can’t open my menu

[fair tinsel]

how weld a hand tracking system behaves would be entirely on meta

[gusty ember]

Think that is the bug a Quest firmware update introduced.

[dense cargo]

Will it ever be possible to use the hand tracking on Quest 2/Quest Pro on the PCVR version of VRChat via link?

[gusty ember]

Maybe.
Depends on "Meta" I think, because there is "hand tracking over link" available to developers, but that to developers, is probably what might be a problem, no game on the PC Oculus store has hand tracking.

[pallid shell]

What does that mean

[gusty ember]

Quest update broke a thing. Literally every Quest update breaks something semi-major (like developer mode).

But VRChat just fixed what "Meta" broke in the most recent update today.

[pallid shell]

Is it the same gesture?

Pinch left hand?

[gusty ember]

Fixed usually means they fixed it, not changed it from before.

[pallid shell]

Okay

Thanks

[dark flint]

I'm new to Quest dev for worlds, did VRChat ever resolve the video player compatibility for Quest players? Can we still not add video players to Quest worlds?

[fair tinsel]

you can use video players on Quest just the videos need to be direct MP4 links not YouTube videos

[dark flint]

ok, I read that but it does not have to be AV Pro right? that cost 500

[fair tinsel]

the AVPro video players are already provided in the SDK

[zinc umbra]

I thought the Quest 2 Hand Tracking update was cool ever since I first tried it, but I unfortunately have to play standalone, and would like to ask if it would ever be possible to use the feature while being Linked via Cable?

Or maybe even a future update to allow that if you play the game through the Desktop Oculus App over the Steam Version?

Ah, well I'll be damned. Looks like I am slow to the question.

Disregard last

[mental galleon]

On virtual desktop there is something like it but not as accurate you can’t really move or turn more of just clicking the bottoms and stuff and grabbing things

But yeah hopefully in the future

[zinc umbra]

ill pass on network based connections, as wifi here is garbo.

[wary mist]

Can we please have a studio in vrchat quest like rec room just without kids😭😭🙏🏽

[fair tinsel]

vrchat is unlikely to ever do in app World building

[trim hawk]

My oculus quest mic is not working in VR chat anymore, it says I’m not muted but nobody can hear me

[ocean dagger]

if you didn't try this yet try messing around with the mic sensitive

sensitivity (

[trim hawk]

I got it working

[ocean dagger]

awsome!

[trim hawk]

Yea

[vague maple]

idk if this is where i ask but i need help w unity im tryna upload a quest avi and i have the right unity, but i cant put it to android, i dont have the add modules option

[stark jolt]

been making throwable objects for quest avatars and have made tons of progress so far

[white hatch]

Trying to make my world quest-compatible, but keep getting this error. I have the latest U# packages from Creator Companion. And the only U# code in my project is the video player, which I already understand doesn't function on Quest. Any help on this?

[umbral socket]

Check your console! Some of your U# scripts have errors.

[white hatch]

The only thing I did was click "Switch Build Target to Android." Everything worked fine before I clicked that button. After clicking it, nothing builds. And I can't compile USharp, these are assets I've downloaded from others, like USharp video player. And the references listed in the error are pointing to the SDK Control Panel. I tried switching back to Windows, but it still won't build.

[umbral socket]

Hmmm, that error definitely indicates that UdonSharp had something to complain about. UdonSharp scripts can compile differently, based on your platform.
I'd still check the console to make sure there aren't any other errors preceeding this one.

[gusty ember]

Video players do work on Quest, you just need a resolver to make youtube links to work.

[white hatch]

Well, the conversion alone is what ruined my original project. I had to resort to the backup I'd saved, and everything worked fine in there. If there are any instructions for how to recompile U# code for a third party asset in order to make a switch from Windows to Quest work smoothly, that would be great. As well as common issues switching PC to Quest (I already know ASTC 4x4 fixes all the issues of ETC texture compression for lightmaps). Otherwise, any attempt to port a Windows project to Quest definitely risks all code in the entire project, preventing it from ever building again.

There's nothing wrong with the code from my project. The conversion alone did this. Perhaps a bug related to the latest version of Creator Companion? I did update it prior to attempting this conversion.

[gaunt quest]

It needs to be better

[umbral socket]

You may have been affected by one of the breaking changes in UdonSharp 1.0. Check out this page to see what's affected: https://udonsharp.docs.vrchat.com/migration/

[dark flint]

I made a world with chairs and when I finally tested it in Quest I can see the invisible trigger locations. One is the pickup cube on a flashlight and the other is the chairs. It looks like I am sitting in a green transparent box. Any way to fix this? Do I need to scale the chair box surrounding the seat?

[charred mortar]

Can someone help me out trying to make her quest hut this showed up!

[dark flint]

Are there any resolutions to video players in Quest 2 World creation? I heard using Jirrai works to format a youtube link and Merlin is good but I also heard you might need local videos playing instead of Youtube.

[gusty ember]

https://nextnex.com/
Yes, you input the youtube link you want to work on Quest on this website, it will give you a link that you input into the video player.

And when people have talked about local videos, they do not actually mean "local videos", you cannot play videos that aren't on a server.

Playing a video that is on your computer is therefore not possible unless you upload them to a server.
Easiest is uploading to youtube and making the video unlisted.

[dark flint]

Ok thank you, advice on which video player to go with?

[dark flint]

@gusty ember

[gusty ember]

Usharpvideoplayer is simple and fine.

Too many are just needlessly complex.

[dark flint]

Ok I'll try that

Thanks @gusty ember

[quartz nebula]

Hey I’m having problems with people joining me or me trying to join them, if anyone can help me with this issue, that would be amazing

[dark flint]

@gusty ember I am getting tons of errors for adding the USharp Video Master, I thought this was not complicated?

Ignoring the errors I tried to test and I get this Export Exception - System.IO.FileNotFoundException: C:/Users/digyv/AppData/Local/Temp/DefaultCompany/HereNOW Help/scene-StandaloneWindows64-HereNOW Help World 2.vrcw does not exist

[gusty ember]

Do you have UdonSharp installed?

[dark flint]

I need both?

whoops

[gusty ember]

Yeah, almost every third-party video player requires UdonSharp to be imported.

USharp Video player is just the baseline pretty much.

[dark flint]

Well that explains a lot lol

[gusty ember]

You will probably need to right click the UsharpVideoplayer folder and "reimport" after you've imported UdonSharp.

Worst case, right click and do a "reimport all", it works as a fix all solution most of the time.

[dark flint]

So import UDON Sharp and then UDONSharp video and it should fix the prefab?

[gusty ember]

Assuming you didn't unpack it, yeah, it should.

[dark flint]

I downloaded both from Github, unzipped it, and extracted it to the assets folder

[gusty ember]

That explains why it said master at the end.

It is probably fine most of the time with these things since the files are in such a raw form, but there is a releases section that puts everything into Unity packages. https://github.com/MerlinVR/USharpVideo/releases/tag/v1.0.0

Also if you are going to keep updating this project past January then you should probably migrate to creator companion, SDK updates can only be gotten from it past that.

[dark flint]

Really?

interesting

[gusty ember]

Also keeps easy access to some of the useful Unity packages, like UdonSharp, worldtoolkit, questswap etc, not super useful, but does mean you won't have to find the github for them and should be able to trust VRChat that they have been vetted.

[dark flint]

Do you have the link for the most updated UDON Sharp? I think I got the old one

I tried adding UDON Sharp and I get this You are trying to import an asset which contains a global game manager. This is not allowed.

lol wtf

What the hell am I doing wrong? I got the right SDK3 and the right 2019 Unity and this one package prefab keeps crashing and dropping tons of errors

[gusty ember]

The new version is apparently only available on VCC

[gusty ember]

Never seen that message before.

[gusty ember]

Dependencies are easy to break, which is why reimport all fixes so many things.

[dark flint]

Maybe I need to open it in explorer and purge everything I just added again

How the hell do I update that and access the files?

I'm migrating right now

[dark flint]

I think I get it now, I have to have a fresh github UDONSharp package and open it through Creator Companion and it should update does that seem right @gusty ember

[gusty ember]

It should actually just be there in the list of packages.

[gusty ember]

"Reimport all" if you haven't tried that.

[dark flint]

All of the chairs in vrchat are gone lol

ii cant find one world with working chairs

[gusty ember]

?
Huh.

Check Luminescent Ledge, it annoyingly has tons of chair turned on by default.

[dark flint]

I just checked pug, default home, one of my worlds and the new one and nada

lol

I thought I messed up my world, can anyone confirm?

broken on desktop lol

Nevermind, Quest avatars on PC testing can't sit

I feel dumb

[dark flint]

I figured it out, I gotta to work on PC because I did not go to the VR chat communities download for udon sharp I went to the original one and that works fine I knew that if I went back 1 I knew that I would be able to find a stable version

[dark flint]

Gotta find whitelisted videos with HTTPS to play, at least I know the video is up but blocked

[delicate folio]

Heyho! I'm having trouble with Standard Lite Shader. I have some kind of White-ish reflections which doesn't look right in comparison to Unity's Standard Shader. Can anyone explain me the reason? Can we fix that or is it just the way the Quest shader is working?

The material preview doesn't have this shine. Tho, it also doesn't look the same either. (First pic Standard Lite, second pic Standard)

[wraith jewel]

Anybody wanna hang and watch a horror movie add me

[fair tinsel]

from what I recall the standard light Shader doesn't use reflection probes

[delicate folio]

Oh, ok. Damn

[delicate folio]

We could use Unity's Standard shader for worlds on Quest, right? Just not on Avatars and without any kind of transparency, right?

[fair tinsel]

yes you can use the standard Shader on worlds for the quest it's just more expensive

[delicate folio]

It's a PoC anyway. Highly probably it won't get published. So, performance shouldn't matter that much in this case.
Thanks for the answers!

[delicate folio]

Question about transparency for the Oculus Quest: When and how are they possible?
I noticed that transparencies in UI elements will be displayed without any issues. However, I've read multiple times, that transparency should be possible. Even VRC mobile shaders don't have transparency.
Can you use the transparency of Unity's Standard Shader in worlds? I don't care about avatars

[fair tinsel]

yes you can use transparencies on the unity standard Shader in worlds it's just very expensive to render

[delicate folio]

Ah, ok. Shouldn't matter that much for our PoC, but do you have by any chance an experience on the amount of materials/objects with transparency when it will get noticable?

[fair tinsel]

from what I can recall it has more to do with how much the transparencies overlap with each other

[delicate folio]

By overlapping you mean multiple objects behind each other which each have some kind of transparency?

[fair tinsel]

yes

[delicate folio]

Ok, gotcha. Thanks for the answers again! 🙂

[fair tinsel]

and just make sure to test stuff actually in the headset for checking the performance

[delicate folio]

Yeah, I just don't have a Quest on my own and always have to ask a colleague 😄

[burnt island]

Its not letting me import the sdk3 it greys out the boxes in unity

also this error message

anyone know how to fix?

[past kindle]

head to creator companion channel

[placid egret]

Anyone have any ideas as to why the fps on quest in my world starts high but progressively goes down till it stabilizes at about 11 fps? There is nothing new spawning or anything. The only thing I can think is that the udon sync gets overloaded the longer your in the world

[wraith jewel]

I released my horror game for vrc, and I want to know how to put it in quest.

[gusty ember]

Assuming android build support was ticked when installing unity, then you just click the button in the upload window that changes the build target to android (Quest) and then you could just upload (assuming world is below 100MB and you aren't relying on post processing).

However you should really upload a test version and get someone with a Quest to test it because some shaders turn black or pink because of hardware incompatability but also to test performance.

Unless you put focus on optimizing it from the beginning, then it is likely going to run too badly for Quest, it is only a phone processor.

And if it runs terribly then you shouldn't upload it without optimizing.

[wraith jewel]

Thanks

[wary stream]

So im either slow or my unity isnt working. i have the correct unity version. but when i go to add android build support the add modules button isnt there. what do i do.

[kind prism]

Im getting some errors when trying to upload my vrchat world, everytime i publish i get 2 errors. “Error building player because scripts have compile errors in the editor” and “Export Exception - System.IO.FileNotFoundException (pathway) - scene-android-world.vrcw does not exist” any help?

[kind prism]

It happens in a lot of worlds. Even in blackcat for me amd stuff. Its likely a quest issue, there isnt a fix as far as im aware, there might be as alot of worlds dont do this though

[glass tiger]

Does anyone know how to fix the terrain billboards rendering issue? It was fine the other night but now they’ve completely stopped rendering , the parts where you can see the skybox are supposed to be filled with the billboards.

[wise copper]

I am seeking Help, Questies are crashing Randomly in my world and i dunno how i can fix it cause i dont know the problem, Everything is fine, this world me and friends spent nights in and notting but for some reason questies are suddenly crashing and idk why

[wraith jewel]

I got to say, those trees are beautifully rendered! I have never seen them in 3D like this before, nor trees with so much girth lol. Really nice stylistic choice and the only downside is what, some excess distortion in the grain of the wood? Reguardless its really pretty good job m8

[glass tiger]

Sadly I won’t take credit as these were ripped from AoT 2 lol

I’m just using them to create a map

[wraith jewel]

Ahhh mka

Supreme choice reguardless

[glass tiger]

Thanks

[delicate matrix]

I’m having an issue with avatars. On PC, I can see my own avatars clothing just fine but when I try to play it on just the Oculus Quest itself, no clothing spawns. Is there any way to fix this?

[pseudo night]

How do I fix the shaders issue?

[muted salmon]

Hey, does anyone know how to fix the issue with quest crashing after like 5 min of play? Even with avatars hidden and stuff. Like sending u back to oculus home crash

[wraith jewel]

my video player works but i cant enter url in game how do i fix that

[cobalt wren]

why can i not uplode my avitar ? (Someone ask also asked if I had a quest friendly avatar but idk how to make 1 plz help)

[fierce osprey]

You'll want to fix most of those big red errors.

see #quest-optimization of course.

[hollow blaze]

hello, ive tried loading unity and it says my license isn't valid. why would that be?

[alpine dome]

https://tenor.com/view/google-exists-google-search-it-geekboy-geekboy-cz-gif-25933207

[terse mauve]

Are there plans on removing some limitations for the quest 2 for vrchat?
Or have a settings for quest 1 and quest 2
Cause like
It would be nice

[fierce osprey]

If anything there is talk of making them more strict

[azure dew]

Wish there were constraints on quest. Even with a strict/hard limit would be fine.

[gusty ember]

Quest 1 can't really run VRChat anymore, so if anything VRChat is already on that Quest 2 setting, if there was one.

Even with the Quest 3's hardware upgrade it wouldn't surprise me if they barely lessened the limitation because that is how badly Quest VRChat runs, for the sake of Quest standalone users I seriously hope they do not lessen them because then the game could actually run with some stability.

[gusty ember]

Unlikely to happen until VRChat makes their own constraints, the cost of Unity constraint grow linearly, while physbones for example grow logarithmically.
Constraints are expensive. https://twitter.com/hfcRedddd/status/1547958650899009546

hfcRed (@hfcRedddd)

#VRChat
Some quick graphs I slapped together to show the impact of Constraint Components and Sources, since a lot of people dont seem to know about this.

Likes

136

Twitter · Jul 15, 2022, 2:57 PM

[raven crag]

Will there eventually be custom shaders available for the quest?

[autumn radish]

Hey, uh, has anyone experienced an issue of the Quest client somehow pulling an older upload of a world, even if a newer upload was submitted?

I tried clearing my content cache but somehow the world update isn't, well, updating, despite there being no errors in Unity.

[fair tinsel]

highly unlikely

[autumn radish]

The only thing I'd like is to allow showing avatars for users in my friends list and that's about it, with the current state of the ranking system. Other than that, it's mostly fine where its at for Q2 usage. World devs could stand to have a little bit of restriction placed on them.

[autumn radish]

Yeah no. The SDK says its uploaded, but the site still shows an old update date. PC builds upload perfectly fine however.

NVM figured it out.

[autumn radish]

I take that back, I'd also like them to allow audio sources, albeit with some kind of limitation like the particle limiter (Maybe 1 audio source actively playing at a time?)

[teal python]

Sounds aren’t allowed due to a CPU and especially a RAM problem. Even if the audio is not currently playing, it would be loaded into RAM

[autumn radish]

Yes but this limitation wouldn't be as much of an issue on Quest 2 would it? And isn't there an option for audio sources to load the audio instead of keeping it in RAM?

[teal python]

I don’t know where else it would load it besides RAM and the Quest limitations in place might as well be the Quest 2 limits since quest 1 cannot even run VRChat anymore at this point and the Quest 2 is already at its limits, for example the most common cause of crashes is most certainly the Quest 2 running out of RAM

[autumn radish]

...storage.

It'd be slower, e.g. audio wouldn't play instantly, but it could stream from the disk, yes?

[teal python]

I personally doubt that would work, but they would need to make a custom audio source because unity’s cannot stream from the disk. And if the audio cannot play at a second’s notice then the only thing people would really wanna put on their avatars would be music which would by itself take up the 10 MB avatar size limit

[autumn radish]

Wrong: https://docs.unity3d.com/2019.4/Documentation/Manual/class-AudioClip.html

Streaming: Decode sounds on the fly. This method uses a minimal amount of memory to buffer compressed data that is incrementally read from the disk and decoded on the fly. Note that decompression happens on the separate streaming thread whose CPU usage can be monitored in the “Streaming CPU” section in the audio pane of the profiler window. Note: Streaming clips has an overload of approximately 200KB, even if none of the audio data is loaded.

[teal python]

Dang, I knew unity could do that but I didn’t think that was in the 2019 version

But that still runs into the CPU usage problem and audio is very CPU heavy with the Quest’s already at basically it’s max utilization

But still it’s cool to know that 2019 unity can stream audio

[autumn radish]

It says it does it on a separate thread. The Quest has sorely underutilized multi-threading, but supposedly it wouldn't bog down the main thread.

[fair tinsel]

basically assume any Quest limitations at this point is limitations of the Quest 2

[autumn radish]

If they enforced active source counts, shorter range limits, and forced all audio assets to streaming, in theory they could reduce the perf hit and bottleneck.

If they wanted to go further they could have a performance-tied limiter that disables avi audio if the sustained performance drops below X frames.

After all, people said dynamic bones would be impossible, and we have physbones now.

[autumn radish]

Im not saying it'd be great. It'd be like particles or physbones where there's strict hard limits.

And it'd have to err on the side of caution in terms of dropping audio vs. dropping frames.

But I genuinely think it could be doable. At least for smaller instances (they'd probably have to disable audio on large instances, but I personally wouldn't mind that tradeoff).

There's room for things to be a bit more dynamic.

[fair tinsel]

like Avatar audio is not allowed at all because too many audio sources outright crashes The Quest 2

[autumn radish]

Yeah but that doesn't stop world devs?

[fair tinsel]

yes but that means the same problem can happen if you put too many of them in

[autumn radish]

They have maximum capacity instances that allow up to 40 people.

If they can do that, surely they could allow avatar audio for instances of 10.

[fair tinsel]

then that would leave no budget for world sound effects

[autumn radish]

Which is why I said they could put a sort of "watchdog" that disables avatar audio and notifies the user if performance drops below an immutable threshold.

[fair tinsel]

and I really doubt vrchat would be interested in having features be enabled / disabled based off of Maximum user count

[autumn radish]

Isn't that sorta what all the new features do, like earmuffs and avatar distance hider?

there's even an option to hide all but X avatars near you

[fair tinsel]

those literally aren't based on how many people are allowed in a world

like those features are going to work identically whether you're in the great pug or black cats

but Oopsy Daisy your chill bedroom allows 12 people now your audio is going to be cut off is kind of weird

[autumn radish]

Eh. I'm just saying you are being a bit defensive about the idea?

It's not impossible.

Like, if they:

• Limit it to small - medium instances
• Prioritize world audio
• Cut audio off in large capacity (say... 16, before overflow?) instances
• Stream from disk (uses separate thread)
• Enforce 1 active source per avatar (other sources allowed but inactive)

I think it could work within their framework.

People were defensive about dynamic bone before physbones was a thing.

Saying bone physics could never be done.

And VRChat could stand to start being more dynamic with performance anyhow. Disabling features that hit performance is way better than the headset crashing or freezing and this applies to things already in game — They should start doing this where they haven't.

[fair tinsel]

that would probably get frustrating as the Avatar user to have their audio cutoff seemingly randomly

[autumn radish]

Hence using that fancy hud for notifications (pretty sure I posited that earlier above but oh well)

[fair tinsel]

and people would still probably complain if they were hard-capped to only one sound effect

[autumn radish]

They already do about the physbone limits.

[fair tinsel]

and like vrchat has mentioned Avatar Dynamics has pushed the quest avatars to the Limit as far as what can be safely handled

[autumn radish]

And VRChat is constantly hovering over the big read button that says "nuke " so they're clearly considering more limits.

[autumn radish]

Yes but in what context.

Is it always pushing the limits? In 40 capacity worlds? 10 capacity? details details.

Like, when they say this stuff it is boiled down for us commoners.

They're not exactly posting VRC internals, debug info, test results, etc. for our viewing pleasure.

[fair tinsel]

well why would they considering they're already saying no we're not going to do this so what good is posting that info

[autumn radish]

No = no for now. They've already changed course on other things in the past, and technology is improving, as is the software itself.

[fair tinsel]

the quest 2 isn't going to magically get more CPU

[autumn radish]

VRC on my Quest 2 runs considerably better today than it did when I first got it.

Software technology.

Not hardware.

—
Once again, I'm kinda tired of people treating me like any time I suggest an idea that it is bad and wrong and never going to happen, when things that were never going to happen ended up happening in the past.

They even have the beta for all this kind of stuff now — They could throw it in beta, restrictions and all, and gauge user feedback.

If it's too problematic, pull it. If it turns out everyone is mostly chill about it (save for those who complain about any limits), leave it.

—
But just saying "no" to features which to this day give Quest a "mark" in the public consciousness, drive creators to make worlds and avatars PC only, and generally make the Quest experience worse is a copout.

[fair tinsel]

like the Quest 2 is fixed Hardware so vrchat already knows the answer to this and don't need to waste their time doing a open beta to re-establish what they already know

[autumn radish]

Do you work for VRChat.

[fair tinsel]

no but literally everybody Quest 2 is identical in performance metrics

[autumn radish]

Like seriously. No one is infallible so unless you have inside information I don't, it's possible theres some things they don't know.

[fair tinsel]

so vrchat can already test themselves does 10 Quest avatars with a audiosource each work okay

[autumn radish]

Like, for instance: Originally on Quest 2 VRChat wasn't requesting the maximum performance level from the CPU and GPU, so it was being rate limited to that of a lightweight experience.

Now it does this, and they did it with so little fanfare I made a fool of myself by opening a canny after they had already done this.

They didn't know, then they did.

[fair tinsel]

they're not going to get that magic free performance again to suddenly change their current benchmarking

[autumn radish]

‪¯\_(・–・)_/¯‬ Never say never

[fair tinsel]

how are they going to magically get more CPU if they're already running at the maximum

[autumn radish]

Meta introduces new performance reduction technology, they improve code performance of the base application, better multithreading for the Quest's big.LITTLE architecture, etc.

Like, the things the Quest 2 client does today it couldn't do before.

They could also start clamping down on world developers; start limiting real time lights, require light probing, limit texture size via the SDK, etc.

Part of VRChat's problem is unoptimized content, so they have to make major concessions. Avatars are the easiest because they are everywhere in every world and always present, so their features are the first to go.

[fair tinsel]

wouldn't all of those mostly be just affecting the gpu

[autumn radish]

Not entirely. the CPU still has to prepare data for the GPU, and the more complex the data, the more it has to process.

Otherwise poorly optimized worlds (through lights/models/textures) wouldn't crash the entire headset, just the client and/or force it to eject the user from the world.

And those were just tangential examples anyways.

But in a game like this, everything is connected. The less the CPU has to do, the better. But same for GPU too.

And down the road, they'll eventually have to move on from Unity 2019.

If they ever embrace the URP, there's a slew of new features available to them for performance optimization from Meta, AFAIK.

But that'll be some years off.

[fair tinsel]

they're unlikely to do URP as that would result in literally everything in the game breaking

[autumn radish]

So they're just going to stay on 2019 and the BIRP forever?

Like I know they ain't doin it now lmao

[fair tinsel]

yes everybody's custom shaders makes it completely impractical to change rendering Pipelines

[autumn radish]

AFAIK Unity lets you convert BIRP projects to URP projects. If they did a migration period before releasing a big SDK 4-oh they could give developers time to migrate worlds.

[fair tinsel]

that's still going to probably break most people's shaders the auto converter

[autumn radish]

Run a beta alongside it to test shaders and let devs work with it hands on.

It'd probably be a year or two long process (just look at the deprecation of SDK2) but it'd be worth it.

[fair tinsel]

there are lots of people who no longer play vrchat or who are dead so there's inevitably going to be a large backlog of content that completely breaks with no hope of repair

[alpine dome]

Tbh, if the game doesn't update to URP it'd stagnate and so would the playerbase imo

[autumn radish]

Does SDK 1.0 content still exist on VRChat?

I literally never hear about SDK 1.0 content. Only SDK 2, and they're only promising to support it as long as they can. They're cutting off uploads for it.

[fair tinsel]

I doubt the user base would be happy with having the completely re-upload every single Avatar they have as there is no way to Auto convert all of the shaders

[alpine dome]

If the upgrade was done instantly then yeah it'd be a problem but if it was phased in over a year or so the community would have time to develop, and a lot of older content would be left behind. It'd cause the game to grow and evolve, allowing for more opportunities creatively in the long term

[fair tinsel]

custom shaders are also the reason why dlss & AMD FidelityFX can't be implemented in vrchat correctly

[autumn radish]

Like, they have two options, or even 3, realistically:

• Stay on BIRP forever. As OSes update, and time moves on, the game becomes more problematic and difficult to work with, and feature additions stagnate, pushing users to competitors.
  – Put the effort in, do a one to two year migratory process, then release a URP client.
• Maintain a legacy client and build it into the new client — Switch between clients under the hood, with an extended load time as it warms up and swaps.

Third one is most compatible but the most work and least performant arguably.

[fair tinsel]

question what can't be visually done at the moment with the built-in render pipeline but could be done in URP

[alpine dome]

frosted glass

[autumn radish]

As far as shaders? A bunch. Heck, a lot of performant liquid shaders on Quest require the URP.

And all the BIRP shaders Ive found that are similar just do not work on quest.

The BIRP on Quest is basically a hijack of the BIRP on Android, and there's a lot of flaws with it.

There's a bunch of things that are purportedly easy with the URP, but complex and non-performant on the BIRP due to the Quest's API limitations.

If they move to the URP, they can also start enforcing certain shader requirements which are needed for AMD FidelityFX and modern DLSS, as well as AppSW and other performance enhancements on Quest (and even FSR since thats platform agnostic).

Like, there are a ton of benefits in terms of making VRChat exist the next 10 - 20 years in moving to the URP.

Here and now, not as much. But the clock ticks, time moves on, and VRChat is quickly getting more and more difficult to improve without such a change.

[alpine dome]

It also allows for the shadergraph to be used which lowers the barrier of entry for making shaders, for better or worse

[autumn radish]

If they move to the URP they could also potentially re-evaluate things like avatar shaders,. A lot of VRChat systems arguably are the way they are because VRChat content is already in place.

Starting fresh means they can "Do it right the second time", maybe have a little more intelligent design in their checks and balances. Better benchmarking, better design, better rules, better limits, better features, etc.

Like, the writing is on the wall. Unity 2019 LTS is no longer, well, LTS. It's unsupported, and 2019.4.40f1 is the last version. A lot of new performance and shader features VRChat could benefit from are URP exclusive, and there's great benefit to them being able to rework the underpinnings of the platform to be more capable of expanding and improving in the future in ways the BIRP has unfortunately restricted them.

[alpine dome]

It's a shame we're not in the year 2027 bc I'd be totally advocating for the vrchat HDRP update

[autumn radish]

Isn't HDRP PC only?

[alpine dome]

Probably

[fair tinsel]

well those new features would need to be really good features to make up to the user having to do stupid amounts of uncompensated labor for fixing their stuff that from the user bases perspective vrchat broke

[autumn radish]

Users already do uncompensated labor just to update things.

VRChat regularly breaks or has issues. It comes with the territory.

[alpine dome]

I mean, passionate avatar creators will put in the work and some creators might not, it'd certainly cull a lot of bad avatars

[fair tinsel]

yes but that is a bit of an order of magnitude difference

[autumn radish]

Realistically, a legacy BIRP client, whether built in to a URP client, or provided separately, would be the easiest way to numb teething pains. — New uploads could be prevented, a la SDK 2.0, forcing new creators to the URP. Maintenance uploads would be allowed for existing worlds to maintain content, with a push for them to update to URP and support the new platform.

[fair tinsel]

honestly I don't see vrchat trying this until like built-in render pipeline is completely removed from a future Unity version

[autumn radish]

Considering how long "Write Defaults" has been around there's a "fat chance" of that.

As the expression goes.

The only thing they have really removed is the old XR system and that's because they moved to a plugin system.

In terms of things that effect VRC.

[fair tinsel]

also apparently Unity 2020 changes how the VR rendering Works which would also break a bunch of people's shaders in VR

which is probably why they haven't been in a huge hurry for Unity 2020

[autumn radish]

They removed the VR packages in favor of Unity XR Plugin System.

But I've done a test build of a world on 2019.4.31f1 with the XR system and it worked, after some setup.

[fair tinsel]

it also removed Single Pass Stereo rendering which is what vrchat currently uses for the VR rendering

[autumn radish]

Nope.

They just renamed it.

It confused the hell out of me but you can still do single pass basically but it's not called single pass anymore.

Unless the same XR plugins 2019 can use are different than 2020?

Since the plugins work across multiple versions of Unity

[fair tinsel]

yes but It still going to require the shaders to be updated which is why vrchat is when they added Avatar Dynamics started Auto compiling it

[autumn radish]

They call it "Multiview" now, per Meta's documentation.

I.E. "Single Pass" = One pass, for all views; multiple views (stereo) > "Multiview"
vs. "Multi Pass" = One pass, per view

I think they just didn't enforce it before on shaders; I've encountered VRChat worlds on Quest where the shaders were clearly multipass because everything only rendered in the left eye. — This same thing happens if you build a world using the XR plugins at their default, or switch to multipass in the deprecated VR options.

Now that their quest userbase is building, it makes sense to start enforcing single pass as otherwise people are going to just be porting multipass shaders that worked on PC over without checking, causing more occurrences of "why is everything only showing in my left eye? support PLZ HLP"

It's An Issue™︎

[autumn radish]

Unity 2023 even still has Single-Pass: https://docs.unity3d.com/2023.1/Documentation/Manual/Android-SinglePassStereoRendering.html

It just went through a confusingly-similar terminology change, and multipass never worked on VRC Quest to begin with.

[mental bough]

Hey so, I was making a world for quest and pc, but I've been experiencing an issue where the world crashes the quest, what's weird is that it used to work completely fine on an older version of VRC. With the latest version it seems to always crash though, and I'm wondering why.

No changes were made to the world during that time.

[autumn radish]

Enable logging in the handheld menu (Launchpad > Gear icon in bottom row > Scroll to the bottom > Debug > Logging) then visit the world. It should save logs somewhere which you can view by hooking your quest to a PC and pulling the log off of it

It'll give you an idea of what's going on, hopefully.

[sturdy palm]

I seem to be having an interesting object synch issue that I was wondering if people have dealt with before. The object is cleanly synched for desktop users, but quest users seem to have unsynched versions of the items. This is the case for both the pen prefab as well as other pickup items I have made

[dark flint]

Does anybody know if there's any nature prefabs for quest? Trying to find one for a project and it's either that or make it with terrain toolkit

[fair tinsel]

https://booth.pm/en/items/2605533

[dark flint]

Thank you @fair tinsel What about less cartoony?

[fair tinsel]

realistic foliage and Quest isn't going to go to terribly well as the quest doesn't handle transparency well

[dark flint]

Damn good point, I used terrain builder and painted trees with fog and it messed it up big time lol

I found one world in VRC that is cross-platform that looks great called nature.

I think it's a furry hangout lol

Keywords are nature peaceful calm furry

I did find full fbx modeled trees maybe I can try that out tomorrow with terrain builder

[rotund osprey]

Can I create maps through my oculus (I’m new to development anything would help)

[outer raptor]

no. you need a PC.

[candid crystal]

Will a Vroid made avatar work as fall back?

[outer raptor]

potentially, but you'd need to make sure that it's within the polygon and joint limitation, and with only a single material.

[modern whale]

Developing my first Quest-specific world and of course I've run into the issue of my meshes being single-sided. Is there any way to remediate this?

[fair tinsel]

make them double-sided in blender

if you need both sides rendered for whatever reason

[modern whale]

ah okay

[candid crystal]

I am simply trying to spread the legs apart

But the knee is not following the bone?

[outer raptor]

the skin weights on the thigh aren't bound to the correct joint

you'll need to paint weights so that the thigh is primarily following the right leg joint at the hip

[modern whale]

Are there any particular settings recommended for generating world lightmaps for quest?

[fair gulch]

how do i make a avatar quest and pc compatible together

see their seperate i want the quest one to be pc compatible as well

[fair tinsel]

you use the same build ID for both quest and pc

instead of two separate build IDs

[fair gulch]

oh

[vestal tendon]

anyone got any quest eyebrows i can use for this model

[umbral socket]

This page might help: https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/creating-content-for-the-oculus-quest

Yep!

You're basically uploading your world twice, once for PC, once for Quest. Both with the same world ID.

[rotund osprey]

Uhhh idk if this is a place to ask but where could I find people to make some avatars for me?

[devout flax]

Hey.
So im making my first World ever (and also using unity for the first Time..i have 3 day of développement) and often test my Map whit a few people for me to test if everything is alright.
BUT..
Im on quest 2 standalone. And they are on PC.
And i dont know why. But my lightning i not like what they see (light passing through texture, asset and walls for me but not for them)
Music and ambiance sound not playing for me but playing properly for them.
Big texture bug for me (like color brightness goes up and down depending on my movement etc..

Where i failed ? I use only free asset for everything, so i dont have to code yet. Or create anything yet. Im not yet confident for that.

[trim hawk]

How do you fix the AFK animation because whenever I go AFK in VR chat, my avatars arms go straight to her side and not into a crisscross animation is that normal?

[gusty ember]

Don't know about the lighting and texture bug, but if you used a video player to play your music and ambience then they only work on Quest if you use a resolver like nextnex.com, or use a self-hosted one based on https://github.com/techanon/vroxy.

[devout flax]

No i dont use a vidéo player, i only drop song and sound on my asset and World.

[gusty ember]

Well that is very weird then, an audio source is almost as simple as you can get.

[cunning linden]

Anyone familiar with Udon sharp and Udon video player (Merlin) can't seem to connect the scripts..

[zinc sleet]

The VRChat docs site for "Quest Content Limitations" says "Audio sources are restricted in worlds in VRChat Quest". It does not expand on that saying what they mean by restricted though. Other components either say explicitly say disabled or permitted.

[devout flax]

Hum...my music and sound work now for quest..dont know why but when i reload the Map, its stop working..i think im gonna make whit this.

[teal python]

on avatars, audio sources are completely disabled. On worlds they may be used, but audio is cpu intensive with the already stretched to its limit quest cpu, so you need to keep that in mind and use sound sparingly

[loud spade]

I want to let my avatar be able to toggle a weapon to appear (left hand holding a sheathed sword), then when I use the "fist" gesture, the sword would appear on another hand(while the left-hand only has the sheathe without the sword).
Using the Open-hand gesture would return to original state of left hand holding sheathed sword.

I was able to create the animation for them all, and was able to create a toggle to make the weapon(in its sheathed state) appear on my left hand.

I am able to make them work separately but I don't know how to make it so that only when the toggle is on, that my right hand gesture will make the sword appear on my right hand, while only the sheathe remain on my left hand?

I was doing this by having 2 of the same asset in the scene and making one appear while the other disappear

What should I do in the Animator layers?

[teal python]

you could make it so to move on to the animation where the sheath is in one hand and the sword is in the other, make the transition require both the left hand to be in the fist gesture as well as the toggle to be activated

if you make multiple conditions for a transition, it acts like an "AND" statement, so "condition 1" and "condition 2" must be true at the same time

[loud spade]

This worked. I literally did not know you can add more than 1 condition on the transition. Thanks

[forest owl]

Sorry to bother yall anyone know a quest compatible video player for vrchat?

[gusty ember]

They all are, just needs a resolver server for Quest, because it doesn't have the software that PC uses.

The most popular one is http://nextnex.com/

A self-hosted alternative can be spun up with https://github.com/techanon/vroxy

Someone also made an app, at least on android, that can make it easier, if you as a Quest user, wants to input a video. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=tk.megamonkey.vrccb (Have not tried, so be wary installing random apps to your phone)

For PC users there are extensions to web browsers to quickly get links.

[forest owl]

@gusty ember Thanks for the help bro

[fervent siren]

VRChat doesn't seem to be using FFR on Quest 2. Anyone know why?

[gusty ember]

You sure?
Last time I checked it was using it quite heavily.

You can also just force it on or off using Sidequest.

[fervent siren]

@gusty emberI was wrong actually. It's dynamic. I had to go and find a world that killed my frame rate to see it kick in. I'm used to it being a fixed user-exposed setting in AltspaceVR.

[gusty ember]

Didn't actually know it was dynamic, huh.

[rustic adder]

Can someone make me a police station for role-plays for YouTube?

[oblique field]

Is it possible to have video embedded in the unity project or do you have to use a streaming service (e.g. youtube, vimeo, etc).

[fair tinsel]

you have to use a streaming service

[noble axle]

Hey, just had an idea that it'd be cool to have a game world in VRChat based on the Netflix movie "Circle" (not to be confused with the reality show of the same name)

I've never commissioned a world before, wondering about how much a project like this would cost? Probably not ready to commission it right away though.

[sturdy nacelle]

please how do i change my dominant hand in vrc- i changed the quest settings but it doesnt do anything for vrc

[sturdy nacelle]

@umbral socket sorry for the @ but can u pls help?

[umbral socket]

#quest-development is for the discussion developing VRChat content for the Quest! 😄

... But to answer your question: I don't think VRChat has that setting

[rustic adder]

Can somebody make me a prison DM me

[candid skiff]

can you make this clearer ?

[late zodiac]

They just want someone to make them a prison map

(World)

[novel timber]

I was trying to download the android/oculus version for unity and when I go to download it it says that failed to locate Unity exe anyone know how to fix it

[deft osprey]

Does anyone know why my quest might be crashing the entire game when I open up my menu?

[balmy mist]

try reinstalling the game

[terse mauve]

Can there be more shaders allowed for quest?

[fair tinsel]

not really as the amount of Hardware available in the quest to to render all of your shaders hasn't changed

[young plinth]

Hiya, newbie here!
odd question, and maybe this is the wrong chat but i work with young people learning about VR and I want to upload a world and have them explore it without giving them the option to leave the world (They'll just join worlds they shouldnt and miss the point of the lesson). Is there any way to lock a user in a world? Or have it so they can only join worlds in a favourite list/worlds that i have approved? Thanks so much

[fair tinsel]

there's not really any way to trap a user inside a world or make it to where they can only visit worlds in a favorite list

[young plinth]

Ah okay thank you for letting me know

[fair tinsel]

no problem glad to be of help

[oblique kiln]

You can however prevent them from making a portal in the world

@young plinth

[young plinth]

Oh thats so smart thank you so much!

[wraith jewel]

can i show off my stuff in the discord

[raven carbon]

Why do the QV pens I added only work on PC (as in they only write on PC but quest can pick them up as well)? Its the latest version and everything

[oblique kiln]

#quest-general message

Considering this is a topic on development and the visual lack thereof, I thought id make a point here. Lets focus on this so it can be solved

[raw arch]

It might be because of how they are set up. There aer default pens in the SDK in CC

[celest nexus]

are u able to switch betwen android and windows mode with out breaking anything?

[gusty ember]

Not had anything break for me, but some things do not work on Quest.

[celest nexus]

oh :p

idk

Am converting 4 quest as a test

But also so it doesn’t take forever the next time me do it

[polar oak]

I've been battling this for 6 hours now among other optimizations, can anyone tell me why this is happening, tried render queue, tried using Temporal's Players Only Shader with opacity at 0. I'm just really lost as to why this is happening here specifically because I've used the default mirror for quest before and it did no such thing!

The cutout mirrors work flawlessly for some reason

[lavish breach]

Does anyone know any c# or c++ discord

[toxic zinc]

someone help me I made an avi quest compatible and it worked but questies can only see naked with no clothes. how do i fix it pls??!

[oblique kiln]

from my experience, you need the radial menu's expressions to be 1:1

[left thistle]

working on the quest version of my av and I've always been curious, what do these do exactly? Turning them on and off I can't really notice a difference (but that being said I can't test it exactly either, I only have PCVR to test it on)

checking documentation says to always keep GPU instancing on, but doesn't really elaborate on why

[celest nexus]

i think its to keep unity from making dupelcet textures in Vram

[fair tinsel]

basically if it's duplicate objects in the scene it can render them in one draw call

[celest nexus]

oh

[fair tinsel]

so like if you're in a warehouse with lots of crates it can draw the crates together

[celest nexus]

but is also doesnt do it if its using baked lighting tho

[fair tinsel]

they can be render together if they're in the same lightmap texture

[celest nexus]

oh oki

i thought it was more inefficent for it to be using baked cuz of it not being able to use instanced

[fair tinsel]

so basically you static batching when you have different geometry that shares the same material and use GPU instancing for literally identical objects

[celest nexus]

ah oki

wait so like wdym by litterly indentical

these baked fileing cabnets are allso completelty identical

[fair tinsel]

if you have like a table and chairs the chairs could be GPU instanced as they're the same but the table could not be instanced with them as it's a different shape even though they're both using the wood texture

[fair tinsel]

yes that is somewhere you could use GPU instancing

[celest nexus]

oh

but is says i cant do that cuz its baked

[fair tinsel]

I suppose it wouldn't hurt to use static batching then

[celest nexus]

cuz im not very good at using the light probes so they look wonky with out having baked lighting

[fair tinsel]

then yeah you would be fine with static batching

but if you have like any pick up objects those would be great to GPU instance as those would be on light probes

[celest nexus]

oh

theres like 4 interactable objects in the world rn

and only 1 moves

that being a switch

there will be doors

[fair tinsel]

then you don't need to worry about that right now but good to know in future

[celest nexus]

but am trying figure out how do that

[fair tinsel]

https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/GPUInstancing.html

[celest nexus]

wat me supposed to be taking away from this link/ screen shot?

[fair tinsel]

the details of how GPU instancing works

so that you know when you can utilize it

[celest nexus]

oh

altho does it interfere with culling

cuz it sounds like it could

[fair tinsel]

it would probably do that after the visibility calculation

[celest nexus]

oh

ur gramer there made less sense than usslal

[fair tinsel]

GPU instancing is just reusing mesh data that's already on the graphics card at different positions

[celest nexus]

Oh

Ok

[river breach]

Anyone familiar with using Bakery and quest worlds? I'm getting pretty crazy low bit-depth and banding. First time developing for a Quest world instead of full PC.

edit: (Solution: Under Player Settings, set lightmap quality to High, and under Project Settings set compression to ASTC)

[thorny swan]

Hey all, does anyone else have a problem with render textures on quest?? I just have a camera that renders on a render texture and it works fine on pc but on quest is just rendering the ui layer and apparently everything that has a render queue value grater than 3000.

[serene totem]

Would i need any android modules when i am trying to import my unity world?? i convert the game settings to android but then it says no module found. please help

[outer raptor]

yes. install the android module from unity hub

[serene totem]

which one?

[serene totem]

i already have it installed but still nothing

@outer raptor

[primal storm]

any unity plugin to show what is making an avatar so large?

maybe it offers tips on what to do

vrcsdk does that a little but it's not very good

I've seen some insane quest compatible avatars that have three times the assets that mine has

[fair tinsel]

technically this plugin is intended for worlds but will tell you what's taking up file size on an avatar https://github.com/oneVR/VRWorldToolkit

[vague grove]

how i solve the problem of constantly crashing...? I have a oculus quest 1 but is always crashing entering a world and is so annoying

[gusty ember]

From what I have heard the Quest 1 is basically unusable in modern day VRChat, the 2GB less RAM it has compared to the Quest 2 really screws it over. You'll have to keep clear of any worlds above 50MB (the limit back when the Quest 1 was relevant).

If it happens regardless of how small the world is and you are alone then all I can really recommend is doing a factory reset, not much more you can do with a Quest to solve its software problems.

[vague grove]

Damm thanks

[lunar flume]

is there anything similar to a post processing volume for Quest? with special regards to Exposure.. It would ave a ton of time bcause I dont want to redo all the shaders???

[fair tinsel]

Basically there is no post processing available at all on quest

[plucky sandal]

why is this grayed out

[gusty ember]

Can happen with multiple avatars enabled, not sure why.

[plucky sandal]

why can't i upload help

[plucky sandal]

how do i disable other ones

[fair tinsel]

Turn off the is active checkbox on the top right of the inspector when you click on the avatar

[plucky sandal]

where's that at

[fair tinsel]

You see where it shows the blue cube right next to that before the name

[plucky sandal]

i see

[plucky sandal]

anyone know where to disable this

[gusty ember]

You can't and it is very weird that it is even showing up at an apparent 0 colliders.

But if you do have any then you need to remove a few. Why it isn't properly counting is something I can't help with, except ask if you are on the newest SDK release.

[fallen sierra]

Image sizes greatly impact an avatar size while uploading. You can lower the image sizes and compress them in Unity

[near sand]

Are input fields supported in quest worlds?

[gusty ember]

Yes.
Clicking one will bring up the VRC keyboard.

[near sand]

Thanks.

[fierce osprey]

When you click 'select' does it select some object? 'Cause it should, that should be where the issue is

[buoyant void]

Hey there I'm building a team or in other words an organization ✓ Iooking for active/loyal (1v3) comrades who play vr ✅️and other games stats rq a place to grow and learn we are also looking for chatters for daily discord interactions come grow with us. We also have a map team who are well known for most played maps.

If interested- check my Bio or DM.

[near sand]

The docs mention that when uploading Quest content, duplicating the project isn't necessary anymore. So assuming the Quest version of the world doesn't require any changes, is the workflow now just:

• Switch project build target to Android
• Upload world
• Switch project build target back to Windows
  ?

[gusty ember]

Yes.

But usually you want to change materials/shaders for the Quest version.

[near sand]

Thanks.

[half shell]

Does anyone know where I can get my hands on a panorama shader? Got one that works great for PC but not so much for quest.

The pano shader that's included in the VRCSDK doesn't work at all before anyone suggests it.

[drowsy monolith]

Whats the deal with quest menu melting on my world?

Its like shaking weirdly. Fps is high but its shaking

[gusty ember]

You are too far away from 0,0,0, the origin of the world.

[drowsy monolith]

Oh

[gusty ember]

Floating point errors.
Not fixable without some custom solutions.

[drowsy monolith]

Damn so i have to make my world smaller

[gusty ember]

If it is an open world, you either need to put in fake teleports, or something, section it off.

[drowsy monolith]

Cuz im creating the whole solar system basically with each planet moving. Andd.... I think the Scale oi just to big

Is*

[gusty ember]

Depends at what scale, but generally 1000-1500 Unity units is too far in any directions

[drowsy monolith]

Welp. My objects are even somewhere around 3000

Lol

My second world ever so i didnt knew thats an issue

[ionic socket]

Anyone take Commisions for maps

[tender aspen]

create an empty game object thats centered above all your stuff
parent everything to the game object
move that game object back to 0,0,0
everything should follow along and still be in their correct spaces

cuz im assuming you just built your word far from 0,0,0

[short dawn]

hey man do you know anything about music toggles?

[tender aspen]

yes

[short dawn]

i have a simple toggle switch and added audio component

will this work?

[tender aspen]

ill be honest i thought you meant on an avatar because udon is completely out of my knowledge but that audio source looks fine to me

[short dawn]

oh ok ill look inudon

[drowsy monolith]

Yeah my objects are a bit far from 0.0.0

Then if i małe them Child of node thats on 0.0.0 it will lag more or....?

[oblique kiln]

Hey @buoyant void I don't think this is the place to advertise. Seems kind of sketchy

[primal grail]

the fact that they just joined thiss year is also sketch to me

[tender aspen]

message does look sus, but the date they joined the server isnt really a good indicator on its own, for example i leave and rejoin this server all the time

but that message is sketch

[sweet tundra]

Self promo is against the server rules tbh you could just report it

Actually imma do that now

[safe quartz]

hello, any ideas why that leggings is invisible please?

[twin bolt]

so i’m making my world available for quest, and i’m using the mobile standard shader vrchat gives. When i use it though, tons of meshes turn pure black in game when they don’t look that way at all in unity. Is there any reason for this?

[gusty ember]

I am the reason for the ping and missed that it looked fine in Unity.

Only idea I have is ask if you are using baked lights or not, if it is realtime maybe the objects are out of range of the lights.

[twin bolt]

They’re baked

I’m thinking of maybe trying Toon Lit instead of standard, maybe that’ll change it

[gusty ember]

Did you bake the ones with the standard lit shader, because it doesn't support lightmaps, that is what the lightmapped shader is for (might have gotten the name slightly wrong)

[twin bolt]

Nah, didn’t bake them yet

[gusty ember]

How are they getting lit then?

Lights set to baked in unity only emit light in the editor.

Assuming nothing has been baked.

[twin bolt]

Directional light is doing most of the work. The other lights guys are mostly from the pc version of the world. Though I might try messing around with the lights to see if that’s it. I didn’t think much of them because it was only some parts of the world having the problem, not most

[indigo topaz]

Hello, I’m having a problem with my jetpack prefab in one of my worlds. When the player reaches high speed but has a high framerate, the jetpack works well and doesn’t cause any player tracking issues. However, when the framerate drops and the player is flying at high speed, their movement freezes. The game still runs and updates frames, but the player can’t move their hands to steer the jetpack for exemple, as if the game does not track it anymore. Slowing down gives the tracking back. Could this be due to a limitation of VRChat on the Quest platform?

I'm using "Udon Jetpack" by Synqark/Ostinyo

[grave rose]

is it just me on quest where all the characters are shown as “unsupported” when joining a game until you show it yourself regardless of privacy settings? i literally turned it completely off and it still didn’t work

[fair tinsel]

there's no way to Auto turn on very poor avatars and PC only avatars here only ever going to see the fall back

[grave rose]

no like it was other quest users avatars as well