open-beta-discussion

[tender dome]

man why do i only ever find the lame bugs

[inner kayak]

[tender dome]

one day ill find a bug that makes the users pc explode and i'll report it and i'll be seen as a hero

[hazy linden]

I meant more the main menu. Where even adding the vrc+ button long ago made it feel crowded. The quick menu would be too small for it

[inner kayak]

i cannot unmute

[wind talon]

This message is an ad.

[grim zealot]

Take my money!

[supple forge]

God, imagine having money

[tender dome]

i always get so confused when people call them ads

i dont see the mcrib being promoted to me on the quick menu ever

[inner kayak]

i had to disable toggle voice to speak, push to talk no work either

[wind talon]

i kinda get it, some people see the banner format and immediately assume ad

[inner kayak]

i try to replicate

[wind talon]

the banners (or formally, the "info push system") are meant to be a way for us to nearly immediately communicate with people in vrc

[molten cobalt]

and one of them does include please give vrchat money

[wind talon]

actually i need to enable the beta banner, whoop

[grim zealot]

The art style is pretty poppin' too

[tender dome]

seeing a new banner does get me pogging

idk who does the graphic design for them but you love to see it

[uneven jacinth]

are there any plans to update the sync rate for OSC?

at the moment OSC + face/eye tracking is too slow, network wise, to be usable, without smoothing anims.

[inner kayak]

something something interpolation better than update rate for that use

forgot, scroll up

[supple forge]

It's structured in exactly the same way as ads, and takes up a lot of space, so it's a reasonable assumption

[uneven jacinth]

you can hack this by adding the params to your menu and keeping the pie menus open while you're doing the tracking and that helps

it'd be nice to have that update rate all the time.

without having the menus open

[leaden cairn]

maybe if new banners and information would show up once and then go away, freeing up the space and making it less annoying while still having a way to communicate new game changes and other important information?

[patent hollow]

if they just show up once and go away nobody would remember

[humble pulsar]

Personally I never had an issue with the banners

[supple forge]

It would be much better. Like, having a banner cover a couple rows for a brief second before getting out of the way, and then having a dedicated button in the quick menu to get back to banners

Or even just have a toggle in the settings menu to hide those banners

[patent hollow]

maybe once per session

doesn't bother me either way

[wind talon]

we talked about it a bit before up there, but here (AND AGAIN, i am not the feature czar, this is me paraphrasing, this is not me making guarantees):

• the radial menu thing is an unintentional side effect of having OSC, its kind of a bug but not really, not a super big fan of people using it the way they are using it, as it complicates us making... well, basically any changes there. we have to account for this odd "spacebar heating" use case.
• avatar params is not meant to be the final form of face/eye/etc tracking so we aren't trying to push for that. the "final form" is likely some kind of native on-descriptor definition driven by OSC and any native solutions we end up implementing. networking for that would likely be its own network stack or piggyback on a higher refresh rate extant stack like IK/pose.
• faster update rate isn't necessarily the solution here-- a bit faster might help but really interpolation is what'd help. right now there is zero interp

[leaden cairn]

but then how long do announcements last? I don't need to hear the same information once per session for months? Also about remembering, does everything need to be remembered? It is great to convey information, but a lot of people wont care either way, or if they do they will access it in other ways like through this discord.

[wind talon]

tbqh banners haven't changed, they are off topic for this channel

[molten cobalt]

like as an example open Beta announcements need to stay around the entire open beta

so what's everybody going to do with those extra parameters to be more on topic

[uneven jacinth]

Ok, thanks for the update and information! Really do appreciate it. Is there a roadmap or time frame for when we might see this face/eyetracking addition? As in--is it something we'd be likely to see this year, or is it further out than that?

[wind talon]

No roadmap, no estimate, again, this is me tossing out my wishful "magic wand" thinking here as a result of translating internal chatter and convo into external digestable format that's bound to get screenshotted and passed around until it looks like a ifunny post. 😄

However, needless to say I'd love to have it sooner rather than later!

[ionic bison]

+1

Eye tracking is coooooool

[wind talon]

it is, phase uses it

its creepy

but cool creepy

[sour epoch]

wha

[wind talon]

doxxed

[lyric ocean]

lol

[tender dome]

i dont want eye tracking, that means true eye contact will be a thing

i dont want that

scary

[humble pulsar]

Oh god yeah

[wind talon]

unironically this

[patent hollow]

peepoLeave

[wind talon]

peepoArrive

[sick creek]

people instantly noticed that I'm ADHD as fuck and my eyes go everywhere instead of focusing on the person I'm talking to

[humble pulsar]

Introverts like me will have it real rough then, having to actually use your eyeballs to look at people. Scary
xD

[mortal plume]

I use face tracking and that adds a lot to expressivity. been debating if I want eye tracking or not

if I do get it, I will probably have a toggle for it bound to a gesture lol

[hazy linden]

Just set up a 3.0 toggle to switch between real eye tracking and fake eye tracking. Easy

[mortal plume]

^

[tender dome]

[modern tree]

people will have to deal with me not looking at them just like they do irl

[mortal plume]

you can do that by having proxy bones for the eyes

[sick creek]

now with 256 parameters this is even easier!

[modern tree]

not my problemmm

[mortal plume]

1 pair of bones for real eye tracking, 1 pair for fake eye tracking, 1 more pair that the eyes are actually weighed to. put rotation constraints on the latter with the other 2 bones as a source, and use an animation to switch around the weights of those 2 sources

[lyric ocean]

i can go even crazyer with my fx layer as if it wasent cancer enough

[uneven jacinth]

again, thanks for the information!

[wind talon]

i mean you can also just not get a headset with eye tracking, it isn't like that's going to be a challenge

[wind talon]

sure thing!

[modern tree]

at least people won't be as disappointed that i'm not as "confident" as i seem in vrc lmao

[patent hollow]

that why u leave the slider on shy

[mortal plume]

I mean you do have a point, but then I can't do the Rock eyebrow face can I

with the vine boom bound to it

[wind talon]

eye tracking is one thing, but eyebrow tracking is simply one bridge too far

the technology isn't ready

[mortal plume]

heard from a source that Cambria is supposed to have that

[wind talon]

i mean i heard from a source cambria is supposed to print money and have a functioning fusion tokamak built in

[uneven jacinth]

lol

[mortal plume]

ah yes

how could I forget

[tender dome]

i heard from a source cambria has a built in coffee maker

[wind talon]

bought

[mortal plume]

sold

[ionic bison]

[uneven jacinth]

it'll be interesting to see how accessible Cambria's face+eye tracking is to VRChat.

[tender dome]

coughy time

[mortal plume]

new project cambria leak

[tender dome]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1197-bug-some-quick-menu-text-is-now-bold-causing-overflow

[inner kayak]

[tender dome]

hold on kido i wasnt on beta

[inner kayak]

[uneven jacinth]

@wind talon any clues if Cambria's face/eye tracking would be accessible to VRChat? 😏

[wind talon]

i have no idea

[uneven jacinth]

fair enough!

[visual tangle]

Is the increased parameter limits here to stay when it gets pushed to live? A friend of mine come to belief it's only temporary.

[patent hollow]

it's only in the non-live open beta

[humble pulsar]

Yeah it will be a permanent feature once this update eventually goes to the live branch.
Nothing is 100% sure for beta though

[wind talon]

i am very curious how your friends came to that conclusion

the answer is "yes, of course its here to stay"

[humble pulsar]

Indeed.

[visual tangle]

Well one friend, apologies, they got mixed out when it was mentioned parameters being used for facial tracking was a temporary solution and I guess they got mixed up thinking you were talking about parameters being increased. Thank you! Sorry for the confusion!

[wind talon]

oh! okay, i see. nah, the param space is here to stay. the face tracking thing is just because a native solution (driven by OSC) is what we'll probably eventually have, so using avatar params isn't the final form of face tracking in vrchat.

it's a great "preview mode" tho.

[stiff acorn]

Oh boy, more parameter memory to play with!

[visual tangle]

It is! OSC is great and I love what's people have been doing with it

[humble pulsar]

Yeah I’ve seen some mind blowing things with OSC

[hollow belfry]

[tender dome]

wut

[stiff acorn]

I might put face tracking on my avatar for the lulz now that we've got double parameter bits lol.

[visual tangle]

it is certainly a parameter costly thing to have, but now we got more room to handle that with feature-heavy avis

[stiff acorn]

Also desktop updating parameters as fast as VR now is big for me, cause I'm a desktop player.

[lyric ocean]

so i found a bug now the fun part is finding out what actually broke

[inner kayak]

might just be since i've not been desktop for a while, but i don't remember my hand sticking out while grabbing props working on every avatar before

[wheat fjord]

OMG

Oh my God thank you so much vrchat

Doubling the parameter space friggin awesome

[inner kayak]

wasn't able to replicate the mute button getting stuck, but now i cannot do gestures on desktop

[wheat fjord]

I think it's going to take months and then it doesn't

I'm incredibly impressed

And excited

Doubling the parameters spaces one of the best they did

[lyric ocean]

im so confused i have a animation. works perfectly fine for myself and on live but on the beta no one can see it

i see it working pefect for myself but no one else can

[wind talon]

reproduce it, post the repro steps with the avatar id as a canny

[lyric ocean]

ya i narrowed it down to the specific animation will make a version i can just release and let others tweek at it and see whats wrong

[inner kayak]

think i finally found why the mute bind just dies

used controller and mouse/keyboard at same time, mute and gesture buttons dont work on controller or keyboard now

[mortal plume]

is it safe to use the new SDK for uploading avatars for use with Live?

[muted brook]

heard no

[shrewd estuary]

new project cambria leak

[shrewd estuary]

le canny

[sour epoch]

I thiiiink as long as you don't go over 128 bits it should still work but I could be wrong

[mortal plume]

that's what I figured but just wanted to make sure

[timber jewel]

That's a big beta holy moly

[shrewd estuary]

beta^2

[timber jewel]

Just out of curiosity, what was done for the significant performance boost for Phys Bones?

[shrewd estuary]

gave them gamer juice

[sour epoch]

they have a reduced update rate at a distance

[inner kayak]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1197-bug-swapping-from-controller-to-keyboard-input-breaks-mute-and-gesture-bind

[shrewd estuary]

ok thats actually smart

[shrewd estuary]

upvoted

[timber jewel]

Ahh makes sense

[sour epoch]

that's the most user-facing thing about it though, apparently there's a bunch of other more technical things like just a general code optimization pass

[mortal plume]

would love to see benchmarks

[timber jewel]

good to know ^^

[timber jewel]

@ Table xD

[mortal plume]

like an 80 people lobby with people spread out at different distances

[lyric ocean]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1197bug-animation-works-fine-localy-and-on-live-unable-to-be-seen-in-open-beta @wind talon made a post and uploaded a version of my avitar with it i removed everything possible its jsut a basic toggle that turns on a cube in your hand works on live just fine but on beta its local only im so confused

[shrewd estuary]

[inner kayak]

cough wish that was an option we could play with cough
||https://feedback.vrchat.com/avatar-dynamics-reports-and-feedback/p/1181-update-rate-setting-for-physbones||

[shrewd estuary]

tfw tracked internally

[inner kayak]

[shrewd estuary]

[timber jewel]

Is it know what the distance is for that starting to happen?

[sour epoch]

not sure

[shrewd estuary]

only one way to find out ig

[sour epoch]

it's kinda hard to tell because this only changes the simulated rate but it still gets interpolated every frame between the simulated positions

[timber jewel]

ahh that's good

I hope this wont cause any problems for stuff like grabbing & pulling, so that they will be at the same position for everyone.

[sour epoch]

basic functionality was tested but yeah, always more stuff to be found out in the wild

[timber jewel]

It shouldn't hopefully, since if I remember correctly the Phys Bones will always move to where they are for the Person who uses the Avatar once you let go from them / pose them.

[shrewd estuary]

open beta branch, not ik beta branch

no

ik beta still is tho

[timber jewel]

I wonder how long until it comes out to live

[shrewd estuary]

soontm

[lyric ocean]

probably not long

[limber quartz]

Wonder if it's 20m like it was for dyn bones. :v

[wraith island]

That's a lot of parameters

[timber jewel]

would make sense

[timber jewel]

wrong reply?

[lyric ocean]

ya lol

[inner kayak]

cannot scroll main menu with left joystick anymore
https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1197-bug-cannot-use-left-joystick-to-scroll-main-menu

[bold sparrow]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1197-bug-desktop-shortcut-for-toggling-the-hud-no-longer-works

[warm cedar]

Time to make my cherub even worse ONCE AGAIN

[timber jewel]

I didn't even knew there was one xD

[keen nova]

Oh, I didn't realize beta chat was back. lol

[storm fossil]

Nice, added steam deck controls in new open beta, but do videoplayers work on it aswell or not? I don't see anything about that in release notes.

Also somehow the steam deck microphone in vrchat sounded terrible for some reason - others people could hear themselves and the sound was cutting out. Gonna test it out now, hopefully that is fixed now or in the future.

[timber jewel]

Not much VRChat it self can do about Video Players on Steam Deck as far as I know.

[inner kayak]

related, this old issue came back
~~https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/navigating-with-joystick-in-the-main-menu-is-reversed~~

made a new canny for it anyways
https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1197-joystick-scrolling-is-inverted-again

[storm fossil]

If its a proton issue then maybe vrchat team or anyone who knows about how to fix it to contribute on proton github, hopefully in the future everything works, its been kind of sad not being able to watch anything or listen to music with friends on the deck or any linux distro in that mattter 😦

[timber jewel]

Yeah it's a Proton issue if I rember correctly

[bright pewter]

@storm fossil The issue is a LOT MORE COMPLEX than that, You can read more about it here https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/1199

It boils down to codecs and WMF

[storm fossil]

Aye, thx, will read on it.

[bright pewter]

I see you're in the NEOS Discord. In their case, videos work fine on Linux because they're using libvlc for audio/video stuff instead of any system-native multimedia helpers exposed by Unity.

Which isn't a good solution for VRChat, because Neos devs despise libvlc, and would much rather use basically anything else.

[rain harness]

oh? 256 parameter memory now? i am definitely getting eye tracking with my facial tracker now

now i can pair every avatar with eye tracking and mouth trackin pretty much its funny i always wanted it to be more because i would just go over the limit most of the time. 256 is def perfect i think

[timber jewel]

Yup 256 is great and in one year everyone will complain about getting even more xD

(hopfully not I really can't think of anyting you would need more than that)

[rain harness]

i mean with the dynamics system you do not even need parameter slots

[bright jungle]

inb4 people using ints and floats for literally everything :sadge:

[rain harness]

i made an avatar with sheath unsheathe. swing sounds and hit sounds takes no parameters

[inner kayak]

damn cant use WASD to scroll the main menu either now

https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1197-bug-cannot-use-wasd-to-scroll-main-menu

[timber jewel]

Btw should issues with IK 2.0 be posted on the Open Beta cannz or should we still use the IK 2.0 canny for that?

[inner kayak]

oo can scroll sideways with mouse wheel and the Mouse5 back button also workssss

i wants to scroll horizontally while holding shift like literally every other program ever, but think that would need to wait til MM beta

[storm fossil]

Also noticed in the new open beta that the crouch key is mapped on steam deck, but not the prone key (z on desktop), also prop rotation is done by holding L1 - using left trackpad for it would feel much more natural, and you could map prone to L1, also L4 L5 R4 R5 would make alot more sense for gestures since these buttons are right under the fingers.

[inner kayak]

try holding the crouch key

when i was messing with the gamepad stuff, holding the left joystick down would put me into prone

[clear torrent]

Bro 256 avatar memory

[silver ledge]

Really depends, stuff which necessarily has to use floats (basically where you control the motion time) are pretty expensive if you use a couple of them.

[timber jewel]

yeah but you can now have lik 32 of those, I think that should be enough xD

[silver ledge]

I just hope people don't get the idea "I have 256 bits now, so I can add another 100 layers to my fx controller"

[inner kayak]

i have no idea what to do with all those bits

[silver ledge]

Agreed, that should be enough now I hope, I did hit 128 pretty consistently (I usually would use like 140)

[timber jewel]

Yup same I can now finally do some OSC stuff xD

Btw what happens if I load an Avatar with the new SDK and more than 128 Paramters in live?

[silver ledge]

I guess everything above 128 wouldn't get synced

[inner kayak]

i was told if above 128 the game ignored all parameters on live

need test

[silver ledge]

All I need now is less unexpected behavior of physbones with scaled bones in the chain (like making hair shorter with scaling a single bone), then my creator life is fulfilled xD

[storm fossil]

Yup, that works, though not quite confortable or intuitive. Also obviously a button layout screen would be nice with all these new controls ^^

[inner kayak]

just looking at this feels weird

so many ints

[last viper]

All I need is access to parent constraints for quest (even if its with harsh limits)
I have seen some canny post that were set as tracked internally but can't seem to find em anymore

[silver ledge]

And it looks weird, now imagine being able to use something like int4 instead of int8 xD

[inner kayak]

when did the Quest Creators canny board get removed

[lyric ocean]

i have more than that before the update

[inner kayak]

scary

[lyric ocean]

its not scary yet

just wait till after this update

[timber jewel]

As said by the devs before, Constrains acutally have a really high perofrmance impact which is why they aren't on Quest. They also have to keep Quest relatively good perofrmance whise, because if they don't do that, they could be kicked out of the Quest Store.

[lyric ocean]

it might still get added with limits

[timber jewel]

Which is kinda sad, I still hope that we will get them at some point in the future :/

[lyric ocean]

like physbones

[timber jewel]

If they do it that would be the only way

[lyric ocean]

limit it to like 10

[timber jewel]

10 would probably be to much xD

[last viper]

Ah i see, wasn't sure about the performance cost, for me it's mostly an annoyance because have to put duplicate objects on an avatar if i want it to swap positions, which both increases poly count and material count

[lyric ocean]

not really thay arent that bad but people will put 100s

[timber jewel]

Quest is havealy CPU limited, I'm honesly suprised that they even got Phys Bones.

[timber jewel]

From what I've been told they actually are

[lyric ocean]

exactly its why personally 10 is reasonable but who knows

[inner kayak]

i remember on the "constraints on quest" canny, tupper said something about wanting to tell something preventing quest getting constraints in the future but the canny was deleted

[keen lantern]

do you have a quote for that? because ive only ever heard the opposite, since of course constraints arent even tracked by the sdk at all, indicating they have next to no impact.

[last viper]

I Myself would say 5

[lyric ocean]

its relative thay are more expencive then previously thought not insanely expensive

[last viper]

I mean, I assume that they have been tested in a quest build to actually see their performance within said environment?

[lyric ocean]

it was previously believed to basically be free i still wouldn't call them expensive

though havent seen actual numbers

kinda curious

[sour epoch]

they're free in small numbers but they scale disproportionately. there's a huge jump to multiple milliseconds around 50

[lyric ocean]

ya sounds about what i expected

[keen lantern]

by all means i wouldnt mind a hard limit on it if it truly does cause an impact like that

i was happy about the physbones limit

[inner kayak]

i want 1 single parent constraint

[keen lantern]

theres alot you can do with just one

[last viper]

Hmmm

[inner kayak]

it for hair in first person

[keen nova]

Man, I'm so exited to mess around with the new max amount of pram bits.
Now I can make more OSC magic, with out having to use weird compression tricks.

[silver ledge]

I can see why, but at the same time I would get annoyed by my hair blocking the view approx 2.48 seconds after loading the avatar xD

[inner kayak]

i would be using for twin tails in the back cause they can be grabbed with physbones now

[last viper]

Actually I wonder now, for parent constraints do they always have some impact on performance or only when they are set as active?

Of course there is some performance cost but I'm asking more like, does setting a parent constraint to active cause the performance to go down at that specific moment?

[mystic turret]

Okay are we back in beta ?

Cause if so omfg why

[near grove]

Not disputing the performance impact, but was curious if anyone had a reference to the parent constraints discussion? I'd like to know how much evil I am visiting on others by not slapping objects throughout my armature.

[timber jewel]

Ah okay, goot to know ^^
A hard cap of like 5 sounds reasonable then I would say @lyric ocean.

(If you think about bigger instances)

[lyric ocean]

to be fair thay could make more than 2 or 3 make you very poor and at that point your blocked by default

with a higher hard cap

but its up to them

[timber jewel]

Yeah

Most people really just want one or two anyways

[last viper]

Worst case scenario would be like 32 players where everyone has 5, so around 160 parent constrains. Then again that is worst scenario and I doubt such an scenario would pop up

[bright jungle]

read #open-beta-announcements to see why! c:

[topaz nimbus]

Just want to ask and confirm because brain slow rn, but is the new SDK only working for open beta? Like how I would want the increased parameter memory and wanted to use it in the live version for example, would it work?

[keen nova]

The open beta is not network compatible right now, so live is stuck at 128b for now.

[topaz nimbus]

Alright thank you so much!

[timber jewel]

If you upload and Avatar with more than 128 Bits, it will work fine in the new Beta, but they everything beyond the 128 mark will be ignored in live.

[wheat fjord]

I'm a bit confused

before tonight, the ik beta was network compatible

[errant cypress]

ik beta =/= open beta

[wheat fjord]

So 11946 is not network compat

[errant cypress]

ik beta is still network compatible, open beta isn't

[wheat fjord]

but 11944 is?

So the open beta includes 11944's IK 2.0 improvements plus more?

[errant cypress]

Presumably, yes

Check the patch notes for more info

[wheat fjord]

I saw that

I haven't had time until now to read it fully

I am so anxious for 256 bits to reach live

[inner kayak]

if you go above 128 on live, all parameters are ignored

not only what went above 128

[wheat fjord]

I imagine this open beta won't be in beta for too long

[errant cypress]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[timber jewel]

oof okay, good to know

[wheat fjord]

If you had paid attention to the OSC github page the 256 parameter thing was mentioned, you'd know this was gonna happen, just never imagined it would so quickly, but I love when I am pleasantly surprised.

VRChat has been rapidly evolving over the past 2 years.

[timber jewel]

Yup same, I knee they planted it, but not that it would happen so quick xD

[wheat fjord]

So exciting, I'll finally be able to implement eye and face tracking into my avatars

I like making multipurpose avatars

[timber jewel]

Yeah I don't have a HMD with face or eye tracking so I sadly can't

Valve, where is my Deckard????

[wheat fjord]

I expect this will become more common in the next few years and more headsets will integrate this tech.

[timber jewel]

Yup, hopefully

[wheat fjord]

Based on steam vr data mining its likely the deckard is 1.7 or more years away

[clear torrent]

I actually started modeling my master complication watch yesterday
Knowing that I do not have to worry about it having too much functions taking too much memory is great

[wheat fjord]

It's still in proof of concept stages

[timber jewel]

I'm gonna cry

[wheat fjord]

Valve is very focused on the steam deck technology at this time and that technology is a very large stepping stone to creating a standalone headset that's x86-x64 compatible (has compatibility with the steamvr library)

They don't want to create something that will be outdated in 6 months

they want a headset people can keep for atleast 2 years before being obsolete.

For example is there SteamVR tracked headset that is available at this time, that has all the features of the Index with no drawbacks, that costs the same or less than the Index?

Keep in mind while the Index full package is $1K the headset alone is $500 and all other steamvr tracked packages and headsets cost more than the Index at this time

While some include features the Index lacks, they have a drawback, usually in terms of audio or FOV

Or adding audio costs $150-$300 USD and it costs more and is inferior in terms of quality of audio (both mic and headphones/speakers)

[timber jewel]

Yup the Index is the best allrounder for me, especially for VRChat

[willow tartan]

Did they update the osc update rate for facial tracking? So it doesn't look choppy for others?

[inner kayak]

no, they brought Desktop parameter sync in line with VR

[inner kayak]

#open-beta-discussion message

[willow tartan]

The current update rate is 5hz as far as i remember?

[inner kayak]

around there

[wheat fjord]

Same

[bright jungle]

#open-beta-discussion message
#open-beta-discussion message
in short no, but avatar parameters aren't meant to be the final form of face/eye/etc tracking

and yes, the update rate is 5hz

[wheat fjord]

I thought they improved in new open beta to IK speed

[inner kayak]

nothing in the change log said that

[wheat fjord]

Right. Just not yet. This is on the roadmap.

They have expressed interest that OSC will eventually sync at IK speed

[timber jewel]

Not really, they plan on implementing Face Tracking in to VRChat without needing to use Paramters etc.

[wheat fjord]

Even better

[timber jewel]

The Sync Speed of Paramters will probably not change.

[wheat fjord]

I think it's OSC parameters that are slower

There's jitter with the facetracking OSC app

[timber jewel]

Not sure about that

[wheat fjord]

This is in the canny

I've also used it

Locally its finee

Remote users see some jitter

[timber jewel]

Ah okay, yeah I remember. It's slower but it gets faster when you use the Parameters in the Expression Menu and have it open.

[wheat fjord]

Once this beta is live I am going to use my vive pro eye and facetracker more

[timber jewel]

Such a weird "bug"

[wheat fjord]

I have haptic integration done already

Just need to add eye and face tracking to my main avi

Why is my space bar only working sporadically

There's no dirt under it

As soon as it's commercially available and I can afford it I'll plug my brain into VR and never look back

[strong cedar]

Now that we got more params

I need a different name

[timber jewel]

What about (Finally enough Params)

[strong cedar]

Good idea. Gonna change it when im home 👍

[timber jewel]

Why are like 90% of the bug reports from @inner kayak ? xD

[inner kayak]

the menu scrolling made me angy

cause i reported same thing during qm beta

[timber jewel]

Yeah, that's complelty understandable xD
I didn't even have time to test this update yet, it released at like 3 am for me and I'm not home untill 12 pm xD

[inner kayak]

oh- i forgot time

it almost 5am

[timber jewel]

Well, unless you didn't miss something like your work it's fine I suppose xD

[inner kayak]

i’ll be fine

[timber jewel]

If you say so 😅

[merry crystal]

Another open beta without List<T> exposed to udon : (

[wheat fjord]

The more people that report bugs and make feature requests the better. This is the only way the team will know what the problems are. They don't have the time to sit here and discord to hear all of the issues that people are having. They're busy working. The feedback canny is the tool for communication between the team and us. This is something very important to communicate to other users in VR chat that are frustrated with how things are. If they want things to change encourage them to put feedback in the canny rather than complain about it to other users.

[inner kayak]

i think they were just joking, obv we know why the canny is there

[wheat fjord]

Anytime I meet a user who's upset with certain things I always make this recommendation

[timber jewel]

IK, I wirte a lot of bug reports etc too xD
I just found it funny how currently 90% of the ones in this current beta are from @inner kayak xD

[wheat fjord]

Of course most people in this discord are aware of it. Most VR chat users are not

Even users that have been the platform for many years are unaware of its existence

[inner kayak]

they said input got redone when afk button no work, so i lookie at anything else input related

[timber jewel]

Yeah ik, some one I talked to also didn't know that VRChat is planning on a better face tracking integration. (He was mad / sad about how bad it currently is)

[wheat fjord]

I think it would be a good idea to communicate this to other users in the menu or something.

Perhaps I'll make a feedback canny you report about this

[timber jewel]

It is, there is a banner linking to the canny.

[wheat fjord]

I felt the same way. Although I read the GitHub and the team already expressed the intent to change this.

I was willing to wait patiently for it to occur.

Half of that plan has already come to pass.

i don't expect it will be long before face tracking will be built into VR chat

Likely before project cambria becomes released

[inner kayak]

the github stuff too hard to look through, not everything is in one spot

[timber jewel]

Most of the stuff from the dev stream from last April is also now done. I think only UI 2.0, UI 2.5 and the creator economy are missing

[inner kayak]

creator companion too

[timber jewel]

Creator Companion?

[inner kayak]

well idk if that was in the stream thing

[wheat fjord]

This information was pointed out to me elsewhere by another user of VR chat. This user is responsible for the OSC application that drives the B haptics suit

Every time this user makes a prediction about what's coming to VR chat it comes about two or three weeks later

It occurred to me this user was paying close attention to the canny and github's

This is the best way to predict things that are coming to VR chat

The team does indeed communicate to users of VR chat you just need to know where to look

[inner kayak]

companion app thing that helps manage packages for your vrc projects ..?

idk the canny for it is public so peeked there

[timber jewel]

Ahh that think, I complelty forgot about it xD

[wheat fjord]

Hmmm... interesting this sounds intriguing

I suppose time will reveal the full nature of this "creator companion"

[inner kayak]

pretty sure even though it’s closed beta, the download link for it is just sitting public

[timber jewel]

Yeah tbh I hope a dev stream later this year so we can get a bit more of an insite of what is going on.

[inner kayak]

least i think i remember stumbling on the doc link from something while ago

edit- remembered where and yah it just sitting public by vrc team

[wheat fjord]

I've noticed there are quite a few users who have expressed the difficulty in the learning curve in terms of creating VR chat content

[inner kayak]

too tired, looked spooky

[wheat fjord]

Perhaps this creator companion may help bridge the gap

[timber jewel]

Btw what happend to the VRChat Dev Labs, wasn't that also a thing that was planned?

[wheat fjord]

VR chat dev labs?

[inner kayak]

showcasing anything dev here just makes people pouty

cause they wants

[wheat fjord]

Why is that?

[timber jewel]

I think it was supposed to be a place where the devs show more of what was currently going on

[wheat fjord]

That will go a long way in terms of communication between users and the team

How small is the dev team in the VR chat staff team?

I already know it's not very significant

[timber jewel]

It's acutally not that small anymore

but there are still a lot of open positions

[wheat fjord]

do you have an exact figure on the number of individuals involved on the dev team?

[timber jewel]

I don't think there is any offical information on how many devs there are / who does what

[wheat fjord]

I already expected this answer.

[timber jewel]

(at least not that I know of)

[wheat fjord]

There doesn't seem to be much public information on this

my persumption is that it is not a huge number

[timber jewel]

no it's not, but it's also not tiny

[wheat fjord]

PC game development teams can include hundreds in some cases

At least in terms of AAA games

VR chat seems to be somewhere between indie and AA

The VR game contractors only includes 3 developers for example

One of them personally contact me to give out game keys on my stream

Originally I thought this was some kind of scam because it never happens to me

I was quite surprised when I figured out it was legitimate

I'm way too small a streamer to receive keys from developers

Although interestingly enough this is happened twice now

[clear torrent]

Has anybody tested boolean parameter driving ?

[wheat fjord]

You're going to have to be more specific in what you mean

[clear torrent]

If it still syncs at a different speed for the the user client and the observer clients

Well if you drive a boolean in a controller, if there is not a time delay introduced it will work for you but not for other people seeing it

[wheat fjord]

The parameter type bool has been a part of the VRChat for quite some time

[wheat fjord]

The time it takes for the animation to have an effect depends on your transitions

[clear torrent]

Dude

I know

[wheat fjord]

but yes there is an amount of time that it is synced across the network

[clear torrent]

Nevermind, disregard my question

I'm going to test it myself later

[wheat fjord]

VR chat documentation should have an answer for this question

[clear torrent]

It does not

The thing is, I found a solution that works, but in the changelog there is a mention of "- Various fixes and improvements to internal memory management processes"
So I wondered if it could influence this also

[fluid peak]

Ah man, really wished they had increased the sync rate for the osc driven parameters, 5fps is really not that much

[wheat fjord]

They've expressed interest in doing this in the github. At least for facetracking

[hollow belfry]

The Legend Of Zelda: Breath of the Wild had 44 programmers I think. Just programmers. There's also designers, modelers, sound and music people etc etc etc

[wheat fjord]

Coders aren't always the only developers of games. Development is a much more loose terms these days.

You can create a game with modern game engines without ever touching code.

[hollow belfry]

Yes that is why I said there's also X and x etx

[wheat fjord]

Asset creation is a part of developing games.

[hollow belfry]

But the programmers is the only number I remember

However the Dev team of vrchat Imma say is probably around 10-15 people in my opinion

[wheat fjord]

Possible.

[sour epoch]

there are 66 listed on linkedin. I'll say that a few are unrelated trolls but the vast majority are valid and there are also a few who are on the team and don't have a linkedin, so that figure is a good estimate

[timber jewel]

That is more than I expected xD

[clear torrent]

You can find the approximate number of employees on the internet, it's public information. Just look up the company info itself

There is also information about investors

[timber jewel]

And also Phasedragon (who works for VRChat) just said it lmao

[limber quartz]

that's a major lowball estimate there~

[timber jewel]

Yeah it really was, I was expecting around 40 - 50

[hollow belfry]

I don't think all of them are devs tho

There's maybe hr, legal, moderation etc

[clear torrent]

The thing is, people outside US and Canada are contracted, so they probably do not count as employees here

Also, on jobs.lever.com/vrchat there is 19 (!) open positions

[viral axle]

If I upload an avatar using the new SDK not using the new parameter space, will it work on live?

[timber jewel]

Nope, the parameters will all sadly just be gone

[viral axle]

Dang. Thanks.

[timber jewel]

btw where did you got that info from?

[clear torrent]

2 minute google search. This is all public information

[timber jewel]

I meant that specific website but okay 😅

[timber jewel]

I think it would be cool if we could use LB and RB to switch between the different Tabs in the Quick and Main Menu

[inner kayak]

oo

[timber jewel]

And actually use the B button on an Xbox controller as a back button

ohh sad, I can't right click buttons anymore to just play the click animation without actually doing what the button should do xD

was always using the to play the open / close sound of the QM wings xD

[inner kayak]

can still click and hold to play the sound before the animation

[timber jewel]

true

[storm fossil]

Uh oh, am I the only one whos new controls on steam deck stopped working (except gyro) after reinstalling vrchat? When switching back to stable it works like before.

[shrewd estuary]

put in a canny

[timber jewel]

doing that :p

Btw how do you do Emotes with a controller?

[storm fossil]

Hold one of the shoulder buttons (R1 for me)

And then use the joysticks for each hand

[timber jewel]

hm nothing happens

[timber jewel]

I did it.
https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1197-feedback-let-us-use-lb-rb-to-switch-between-tabs

Btw did anyone else have issues with UI sounds just being gone?

I have no idea how that happend

[timber jewel]

It's just gone for me right now

Rejoning has fixed it

Okay it's the world which is weird

the issue happens on live

[timber jewel]

Made a detailed canny about this!
Currently the B button is only used to close either the Quick Menu or Main Menu, my suggestion is to make it work more like a Back Butten as it does in other Games.

https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1197-feedback-make-the-b-button-work-more-like-a-back-button

[shrewd estuary]

updooted

[wheat fjord]

I think this part in the announcement reveals the true intent behind this open beta

This leads me to believe it will go live much sooner than the Avatar Dynamics beta

Depending on which elements go live first

If it's the whole thing it may take a month or so (likely less)

[open crown]

Hooooold up, does this mean I can upload something with more than 128 params?

Like... right now?

[small surge]

only 128 will be on live , but sure

[open crown]

Ah, I should hold back then for the moment-

[timber jewel]

this open beta is what will go live (after some bug fixes of course)

there is no splitting or anything

[hollow belfry]

Someone said it just doesn't work for live (becomes 0)

I think

[wheat fjord]

The only question is time.

I imagine as always it will happen sooner than I expect

They did this with the physbone update.

[summer slate]

While the increase to 256 bits of synced parameter space is a no-questions-asked literal improvement over 128, that's still not really enough if you really need to get into the meat & potatoes of doing cool stuff with your avatar without having to gut everything for 1 specific feature.
For the main example that prompted this post, this is what the parameter list would look like if you wanted full eye and face tracking with the current version of VRCFT:

1. EyesY
2. LeftEyeX
3. RightEyeX
4. LeftEyeLidExpandedSqueeze
5. RightEyeLidExpandedSqueeze
6. EyesDilation
7. JawOpenForward
8. JawX
9. SmileSadRight
10. SmileLeftOverlay
11. MouthUpperUpRightApe
12. MouthUpperUpLeftPout
13. MouthLowerDownRightUpperInside
14. MouthLowerDownLeftLowerInside
15. MouthUpper
16. MouthLower
17. SadLeft
18. CheekSuck
19. PuffRightUpperOverturn
20. PuffLeftLowerOverturn
21. TongueRoll
22. TongueY
23. TongueX
24. TongueSteps
25. TongueUpLeftMorph
26. TongueUpRightMorph
27. TongueDownLeftMorph
28. TongueDownRightMorph

The numbers represent the limit of floats you can have with 256 bits. You get left with 32 bits for other things. If you wanted both a tail puppet and your ears to react to sounds around you with 'VRC-OSC-Audio-Reaction' to go along with your full face and eye tracking (not exactly a unrealistic combination of things to have on a single avatar), guess what? You're plum straight up out of parameters again, so not even any bools for outfit changes or other basic on/off things.
With a increase to 512 bits, now we're at the point that you'd have to be really trying to fill that list up with even the craziest of custom setups for cool things.

[timber jewel]

Just no...

If you really fill up 256 bits aka 32 floats then you defiantly doing something wrong...

Also currently doing Face Tracking with parameters is just a temporary solution, VRChat is planning on doing it in a more official way, so without you needing so many parameters for it.

And if you really need more then 256 bits for all your toggles etc. you should really consider splitting your Avatar up in to multiple ones, for the better performance of everyone.

[limber quartz]

Honestly, no reason not to split up your avatar bases into multiple ids if you have different outfits and all that at this point especially considering calibration saving is a thing now. 😉

No more 300 skinned meshes on your avatars please.

[gritty salmon]

well, the avatar menu UI is one reason... not a lot of options for categorization there

[sour epoch]

avatar wing is a thing 😅

[gritty salmon]

it is, but the problem is there's limited ways to organize it. You have basically five categories - "all avatars" and each favorites group, and can sort by either upload date or creation date. You can't, e.g., categorize by avatar base, or by the occasion (unless you only need five categories)

[limber quartz]

Main Menu overhaul plz save us 🙏 🙏 🙏

[strange spoke]

oh god i've never seen it that bad ;-; have you?

worst i've ever seen is eboy avis with like 60 meshes

[limber quartz]

There's a customize your own spartan avatar floating around that comes to mind.

Every time someone loads into it, always comes with a nasty hitch

[strange spoke]

ah yes

the one with every single armor piece from Reach and a few guns available to change between

i know the one

[bright jungle]

512 parameters

[muted brook]

just add 512 bit param support as part of vrc+

[sudden rivet]

Hi guys I’m new to this server

And I play be

I mean Vr

[static kayak]

but I want to animate all 20 materials on my avatars hue shifts independently tho ....

[stark harbor]

That would be 20 out of your 32 floats

[hollow belfry]

Truth be told more parameters are always good to make cool stuff like osc interactions (not including face tracking)

[soft sphinx]

but i need more space to make single toggles with ints!

[fallow rock]

Make your single toggles with floats and just trigger everyone that makes anything in sdk3

[timber jewel]

You could actually do that now, you can have up to 32 floats lmao

[surreal pier]

aren't the floats in the animator 8 bit mini floats? so they would use the same amount of memory then the 8 bit ints ^^

[timber jewel]

Yup, they are

[fallow rock]

Yeah, but just about everyone has been using Ints and bools for their toggles. Using 1 float per toggle would set a few people off I’m sure of it.

[surreal pier]

well, yeah

there are reasons for it tho

of you use something like proximity, or the height as input

[timber jewel]

I mean for stuff like proximity contacts you don't need to use a synced parameter

[verbal scaffold]

I'm not sure when to set my contacts to Local Only. I am using both default and custom collision tags. It seems like animations end up local-only depending on what I do. The parameters are defined on my ExpressionsMenuParameter list.

[timber jewel]

If you defined them in your Parameter List they will be synced over the network.

[silver ledge]

why only hueshifts? full rgb main color controlls with three floats and a blendtree :p

[limber quartz]

Contact parameters are run on both the local and remote machine regardless so defining them in your parameters list isn't necessary. If you choose to do so though, you should check "local only" otherwise, you don't.

[inner kayak]

i did that for a while cause i had to set a float from 0-1 in a blendtree

now i have bool and use parameter driver to set the float

cause i’ve learned

[naive dragon]

Hue shift requires one float. RGB requires 3. More floats means more memory means less memory for other parameters

TL:DR hueshift is better than rgb

[silver ledge]

i will write sarcasm after the sentence next time.

[naive dragon]

however

RGB will make your avatar run faster 💀

Common knowledge

[timber jewel]

- PhysBones have received a **significant performance improvement!**
Btw how big is this performance improvement?
(Not because of limiting the Updated Rate for people who are far away but because of the code optimisation)

[soft sphinx]

will it work if i upload an avatar to live with the new sdk?

the params dont go over 128

[molten cobalt]

generally no you shouldn't be uploading for the live version using beta sdks

[hollow belfry]

I think it simply won't show up on live

[sour epoch]

as long as you don't go above 128 bits it will work on live

[hollow belfry]

Have you tested this

[sour epoch]

yes

[vivid vector]

How long does it usually take for Open beta to get pushed to live?

[naive dragon]

Depends

On a lot of things

[vivid vector]

words cannot express how excited I am for the double parameter memory

[teal cave]

Is it normal if you use the beta sdk and upload an avatar with the doubled parameters to live the avatar menu is disabled like i cant click any button in the avatar 3.0 menu

[hollow belfry]

I think if you went over 128 bits it gets deleted on live

[teal cave]

yea but why disables the whole menu tho,should still be able to use to 128 memory space

[hollow belfry]

Because it's a beta I guess

[teal cave]

yee. Hope the beta gets out soon so i can make my avatar more complex

I been stuck at 127 for months and would be nice to add some senders/receivers for animations^^

[timber jewel]

Contact Senders / Receivers don't need a synced parameter though

[hollow belfry]

*years

[teal cave]

from tutorials i seen it needs float parameter but that has to much memory

[timber jewel]

(unless you really need them to sync perfectly)

[timber jewel]

Contacts can be ints, bools or floats depending on what you want. They also don't need to be in your Synced Parameters...

[teal cave]

idk why there's a limit after all, could make one in safety settings but dunno

[timber jewel]

That would be a really stupid safety setting...
And as I said, you don't need to us a Synced Parameter for Contacts and you also don't have to use floats...

[teal cave]

I mostly follow the tutorials from Sippbox and that's what they used i think. Im not familiar with the reciever/sender yet only adjusted physbones stuff

[timber jewel]

Sippbox hasn't even made a tutorial for Contacts yet...

[teal cave]

back then i used int for cloth toggles but i learned bool is easier

and less space

Sippbox made me understand Physbones easier but you are right. It was someone else, my bad

but ye Sippbox is still the one who made me understand Ava3 much easier. Quick and easy, not a half hour tutorial x3 but yee hope they make a tutorial on the advanced stuff too

[hollow belfry]

You can also read the official docs

[verbal scaffold]

That is what the official doc says, but doesn't answer my question. If I use a custom contact (for example a pen makes contact with a book, activate a parameter from ExpressionsMenu to activate an animation) do I make that local?

[naive dragon]

if you're toggling between less than 8 different states use booleans. any more than that you should use an int

the one downside to using booleans in that scenario is having to toggle them back off, unless you set up a driver

[silver ledge]

im toggling between 8 states with three bools, since 2^3 = 8 possible states :p (but thats basically a situation of each bool can be toggling something independendly)

[naive dragon]

i mean yeah if you want to encode your menu options in binary go for it

[ionic bison]

If you only plan on enabling one option at a time, using an int value for multiple settings is great

but the systems that use ints in place of bools are really heavy, bools are much better if you need more than one thing enabled at once in a set of changes

[silver ledge]

any way that we may get something like "int2 / int4 / int6 " stuff, so one may use the easiness of int without always having to use 8 bits?

[sour epoch]

ints may have more of a network impact because they take up a whole 8 bits which is overkill if you only have like 5 outfits, but bools have a bigger framerate impact because you'd need either a whole new animator layer for every independent bool or a ton of states and transitions

[ionic bison]

Maybe eventually, there should be enough room to generally not worry about that now though

[silver ledge]

from what i saw during testing its better to have less layers but more possible states

[ionic bison]

I'm firmly in camp "absolutely do not put multiple outfits on one avatar"

[sour epoch]

yeah that's the real solution

[ionic bison]

I really hope that calibration saving helps people to stop doing that

I never used the avatar wing until calibration saving was a thing, now I love it

[sullen elk]

Avatar wing and expression wings are amazing, I love them.

[sour epoch]

it's really unfortunate that "I'm very poor because I have multiple outfits" is so normalized, makes it impossible to use safety settings

[sullen elk]

Download size limit does a pretty good job for me.

[silver ledge]

guess a lot is coming from "oh, 70.001 tris, so whatever" mentality as well

[sour epoch]

ah yes, using the multiple outfit excuse to hide the fact that each outfit is 150k tris 😅

[silver ledge]

btw, i am doing this, even though it are anystates, it seems to be better for frametimes doing that instead of three layers without anystates for toggling stuff (3 independend toggles in one layer combined)

[sick creek]

I've managed to do it and stay under 70k but oh boy did it take a lot of blender time

[sour epoch]

wait did you put your outfits on separate blend files?

you don't have to do that, you can just remove the extra meshes in unity

it's a lot of extra unity time which is totally fair but it should have no impact on your blender workflow

[sick creek]

no I mean getting the polycount down took a lot of time

[sour epoch]

oh well you should be doing that anyway

[sick creek]

:v

[inner kayak]

but that require breaking the prefab right

[sick creek]

almost all my avatars are medium or better

[sour epoch]

not if you remove the component

[inner kayak]

ohh i see

[ionic bison]

All of my avatars are their own blend file with meshes merged

unless I specifically need to enable or disable them

[silver ledge]

same, one mesh for head for blendshape separation, other mesh for everything else :x

[inner kayak]

so i could have one model with multiple outfits in blender, then separate into diff avatars in unity by removing unneeded components for each dupe?

[sour epoch]

yes

[inner kayak]

i guess i'd still need separate models if outfit has different bones, cause removing those requires breaking prefab

[ionic bison]

Doesn't that assume that the outfits are all not merged though

[inner kayak]

but that sounds pretty useful

[sour epoch]

you could do it either way - keep the skin separate and now you have two meshes, or include a copy of the skin in each outfit's mesh, which also gives you the opportunity to delete the skin underneath the clothing to prevent clipping

[inner kayak]

weird

switching to the robot avatar while head tracking is set to animation will persist

[ionic bison]

That avatar swap method is unusual

[inner kayak]

ctrl+\

[ionic bison]

I know, I mean I wouldn't recommend it for anything besides the "escape" situation of being in a bad avatar

[inner kayak]

eh it persist to any sdk2 avatar it look like

not just the ctrl+\ robot

(is live issue too, so placed in Avatars 3.0 canny) https://feedback.vrchat.com/avatar-30/p/switching-from-sdk3-avatar-with-head-tracking-disabled-persists-to-sdk2-avatars

[ionic bison]

Ah, that's good to know then

but also, SDK2

[inner kayak]

[surreal pier]

that's why I have about 30 versions of my avatar >.>
initially (when 3.0 got released and enable/disable things got so much easier) I wanted to make one avatar to rule them all... but I quickly realized that A) I don't need all the outfits everytime, and B) it's just terrible performance wise.

but I used the opportunity to create "unique" features for each avatar outfit ;)

(the jedi one has a working lightsaber, the stormtrooper one has working blasters, the bikini one has a beach chair, parasol and watergun, etc)

and I'm always advocating to very poor avatar users to either optimize themselfs, use more optimized avatars or at least use very poor avatars only in small instances >.>

but that is kinda an uphill battle with those e-girl/boy avatars <.<
and I get the same response quite a lot: "Get a better PC", even tho I probably have better hardware then most of them, and I don't suffer that much from the bad performance then others...

[silver ledge]

well, that is a "so so thing" in my opinion. "very poor" covers a bazillion avatars, a lot of then unoptimized and actually very bad for the performance yes, but i know a couple of "very poor" avis which outperform medium/poor ones. I think avatars have developed too quickly on multiple areas and the current performance ranking can only give a rough estimate now, but does actually not reflect the impact of said developements

[surreal pier]

I'm talking about actual very poor avatars (not those who may have 76k polygons but 60+ materials, 300k polygons, 4k collision checks and so on)

[silver ledge]

dont forget the 100 4k textures to kill the vram 🙂

[surreal pier]

ah, yes >.<

I mean, I use 4k textures from time to time, but it's usually justified, as the other option would be to use several 1k,2k textures

but then it's maybe 1 or 2 textures

[silver ledge]

same, i only use 4k if i have a lot of detail on a large area (at least 50% of body height has to be that texture, for example a summer dress), i am aiming for maximum 120mb on thrys vram calculation tool, but mostly end at around 70-90

[surreal pier]

thrys vram calculation tool? may share more info about it?

[silver ledge]

thry has a vram calculator, where you can put in your avatar game object and it takes every referenced texture/mesh into account to calculate an estimate.

[surreal pier]

found it, thanks :3

[silver ledge]

even if it shouldnt be accurate, its very handy to look at potential wrongly setup textures which end up way bigger than needed

[surreal pier]

mhm!

I usually just guesstimate it myself

hm... one of my most heavy avatars is also in the 120MB ball park...

[silver ledge]

in my example there the both top textures are both 4k ones, but one with and one without alpha channel, seems like even that makes a difference (the 10mb one doesnt require alpha, so i disabled it)

[inner kayak]

oh tf

[surreal pier]

thanks to it I found a wrongly setup mask... that used 10MB >.>

[surreal pier]

like he did xD

just reduce the resolution of it, a mask usually doesn't need that high of a resolution

[silver ledge]

and thats sadly a thing, avatar creation advanced a lot and so did the quality and resolution of textures people use, imagine a "good" rated avatar using 8 materials, but every single texture (really, every single map etc.) set to 4 or 8k. that would be half a vram nuke, but its not getting recognised by the performance rating

[surreal pier]

from tuppers comment:
"8192MB of VRAM - 2048MB (for world, OS, app, etc) / 80 people = 76.8MB each."
that isn't that bad...

[silver ledge]

yeah, thats doable , but it feels like a lot of avis are more in the 200-300 range, not including the 500+ nukes one encounters every now and then

[surreal pier]

yeah...

[flat patrol]

I think that why I put a tracking control on the first state in the base layer to prevent that.

[silver ledge]

same, first state does basically set a "defined state" to ensure nothing carries over from other models

[flat patrol]

what the purpose of the open beta

[surreal pier]

to test new features for breaking changes, before they get pushed to live

[worn saffron]

For the VRChat community to be able to preview upcoming features and find bugs in the future updates

[surreal pier]

also gives avatar/world creators some time to test and update their stuff, if needed

triple A studios do that too, but they call it "release" :P

[flat patrol]

I mean this one

[surreal pier]

it already got answered

[limber quartz]

A lot of stuff changed other than IK 2.0 and it might cause problems. We want you to find them.
I'm surprised you're unsure of the purpose of this OB in particular Franada. :v

[gloomy dagger]

Even booth users, I have my game set to 25mb avatars, most booth avatars can't reach that with a couple of outfits, but then, so many have 200-500k poly 60mb+ avatars that you don't see them using but ONE OUTFIT FOR ALL. -_-
Yes, 60mb is a already too much, even 30mb is not good at all, that's already unoptimized and has unnecessary stuff in them. yet complain game needs fix. xP
even E-boy/girl outfits can get down to poor with mad good shader work if you slightly work on optimizing them. But these ppl rarely do or care and still complain on game.

[plucky owl]

I think the heaviest any of my avatars ever got was around 40mb max

[vivid vector]

I always hang around people with 100-160MB avatars

and I never have any issues

[timber jewel]

VRAM goes brrrrr

[bright jungle]

cache also go brr

a 100mb avatar is one seventh the game's file size lol

also, download time - there isn't any good reason for an avatar to be that large

[timber jewel]

yeah there really isn't xD

my normal one with all my fancy stuff on it is 54mb and my more optimized one is 34mb

(that's still a lot but wayyyy more reasonable then 100mb)

[bright jungle]

heck, my main avatar is 1.14mb lol

[orchid peak]

Hello guys, I'm new here and also I'm new in unity, I have these problems, And I don't know how t fix the problem? Anyone can help me?

[surreal pier]

wrong unity version

https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/current-unity-version

[orchid peak]

Ehhhh, So I have to download another version?

[surreal pier]

"The current Unity version in use by VRChat is Unity 2019.4.31f1."

[surreal pier]

yes, it's easy if you use unity hub

@orchid peak btw. that would be more a question for #avatar-help then the #open-beta-discussion channel ;)

[orchid peak]

Haha, sorry I really don't know that, I'm really new at here.

[inner kayak]

A third if you don’t count the predownloaded base avatars and worlds.

[bright jungle]

heckb

[glad charm]

i update the sdk and now no toggels are working anymore

[wraith island]

dunno how people manage that but ive tons of material toggles and stuff on my avatars and im ranging between 9 and 12 MB

the highest resolution i use on my avatars is 2k

[timber jewel]

in beta or in live?

[glad charm]

in normal

[timber jewel]

yeah if you used more then 128 bits with the new SDK in live it will not work

[glad charm]

Oh oki

[glad charm]

Thank you

[wraith island]

dunno what i would use that much bits for. Im at 60 or something. Though a lot of params are unused after updates now.

[timber jewel]

I'm at 127 currently

[wraith island]

my vram usage is fine

but yeah everyone should use that vram calculator

meshes are making the highest usage of vram in my case

oh nvm

actually not

im still very poor though

[vivid vector]

I have my cache set to 100GB

[vivid vector]

How do you get this vram calculator?

[wraith island]

https://github.com/Thryrallo/VRCAvatarTools#vram-checker

[vivid vector]

y i k e s

[mortal plume]

jeez

sounds like someone needs to go through all of their textures and crank down the resolution as far as you can

[vivid vector]

but I like my 4k textures

[mortal plume]

you do not need 4k diffuse + 4k normal + 4k metallic

4k diffuse sure, but 2k normal and ~1k metallic

set the resolution for each texture individually according to their needs

keep turning it down until it looses too much detail

[vivid vector]

I wish there was a way to just mass compress textures

[mortal plume]

there is, you can select multiple textures at once

but that's not how you should go about it

because chances are, one texture can have a lower res than others and you won't notice the difference

[vivid vector]

so
4k for base colors
2k for normals
1k for metallic?

[mortal plume]

as a general rule of thumb yes

the smaller the asset, the lower all of those become

a ring does not need a 4k texture

1k max

then normal 512 and metallic 512 or 256

you get the idea

the lower you can make the resolution for everything, the better

turning down the resolution by 1 notch is a 4x improvement

[wraith island]

lmao rip

[vivid vector]

thats better

[mortal plume]

much better, but could still be improved

[mortal plume]

even better

[vivid vector]

I dropped all 4k textures to 2k

and I dropped all 2k to 1k'

most of the specular or metallic I dropped to 512

[mortal plume]

which shader are you using?

since a lot of shaders can use packed textures for metallics

[vivid vector]

everything is standard except my main body and my collar

those use Poiyomi pro

[mortal plume]

so that you can have 1 texture for metallic/reflection/smoothness rather than separate

[vivid vector]

Before:

After:

holy sh*t

[mortal plume]

mhm

[vivid vector]

thanks haha

[mortal plume]

👍

optimization pog

more people should do it

[timber jewel]

welll uhm yeah

[raw forge]

That Thry tool seems a little uhh, not good

[vivid vector]

wdym not good

[raw forge]

A lot of the info there isn't really true

[timber jewel]

it is

[vivid vector]

how so?

[timber jewel]

VRAM is not download size

[vivid vector]

it literally says that XD

this seems extremely accurate too

[raw forge]

"If there were 40 of your avatar you would take up 18,02 GiB of Video Memory"

This is false. If there were 40 of your avatar, you would take up the exact same amount. It can reuse the same textures in vram, it doesn't need to copy paste it 40 times

[mortal plume]

is that really important though?

[vivid vector]

I think they mean 40 other avatars of the same performance rank etc.

[timber jewel]

that is not really important though

[mortal plume]

the point is to put the amount of VRAM used into perspective

[vivid vector]

^

[mortal plume]

not actually because 40 people will use the same avi

[raw forge]

That it should probably be written differently. Saying "40 of your avatar" is not right

[timber jewel]

it's just to display how much 40 people with such an Avatar would take up

[vivid vector]

^

it depends on how you read it

[dapper scarab]

it would still require duplicating the texture which does use extra vram probably not as much but there’s still an impact

[vivid vector]

also, I had no idea VRChat would just reuse textures in VRAM

[shrewd estuary]

vrchat smort

[vivid vector]

so basically this is saying

"with a 3090, you're gucci"

lol

I have a 3080

LOL

[dapper scarab]

the fuck

[vivid vector]

did you just say br

[timber jewel]

even only the body of my Avatar takes up 34 MiB

[dapper scarab]

yes

[vivid vector]

with alot of r?

lmfao

I would show the whole list

but that would be bad

[dapper scarab]

👀

[timber jewel]

nothing to hide lmao

[vivid vector]

yeah I can't show that

[shrewd estuary]

go on

show it

[vivid vector]

not unless I rename some assets

[shrewd estuary]

[dapper scarab]

lol ok

[vivid vector]

LOL

[shrewd estuary]

discords whole "bad language detection thingy" never actualy works

[vivid vector]

this isn't the full list

thats just most of my meshes

[shrewd estuary]

go on

[vivid vector]

how can I reduce file size of a mesh without breaking it

[shrewd estuary]

show the full list

[vivid vector]

VRChat would get mad at me

[raw forge]

Remove unused blendshapes

[dapper scarab]

Also lots of blendshapes do destroy frametime as they’re not linear when recomputed

[shrewd estuary]

bros got the whole planet in their avatar

[vivid vector]

how do I see what blendshapes aren't being used?

[dapper scarab]

You check and see

[raw forge]

In your animations

[dapper scarab]

Then yeet them off in blender

(Technically possible in Unity)

[timber jewel]

interesting how a texture that is only 483kb in size can take up 21,33 MiB

[vivid vector]

I have way too many....

https://vizionis.gay/RcNp0pSZ

[timber jewel]

yeah Rezillo has a tone of blend shapes

[dapper scarab]

If you have a lot of moving blendshapes (like FT) it’s technically more performant to split the head mesh from the body

[vivid vector]

I do not have FT

I want it

but I don't wanna giveup my Index

[dapper scarab]

You can do facial but not eye with the index still

[vivid vector]

oh right

I can't justify getting the facial tracker without the eye tracking

it'll feel out of place

[dapper scarab]

Pro Eye isn’t that much of a downgrade though

[timber jewel]

it kinda is

[vivid vector]

the index has plenty of room on the inside for some kind of DIY version
just need someone to make one

[dapper scarab]

If you don’t use the high refresh rates meh not really

[dapper scarab]

Pimax has an eye track kit also

If you want that

[timber jewel]

terrible mic, worse speaker / audio solution, lower refresh rate, lower FOV, more scree door effect, for the most part a lower comfort, needing to run extra programs to use it

[shrewd estuary]

what website is this

[vivid vector]

https://versus.com/en

[shrewd estuary]

thanks

[timber jewel]

Anyway, let's get back to the open beta topic, this is getting a bit #general-media .

[vivid vector]

right

[dapper scarab]

Pro doesn’t require extra software that’s the Pro 2 but yeah

[timber jewel]

Ah okay, sorry my mistake then.

[mortal plume]

already a thing

also, face tracking on index works just fine

[worn saffron]

SMH the vive pro eye doesn’t have a remote control such a poor design choice

[muted bloom]

Ugh can we PLEASE fix Index controllers stopping Root.T from coming over in actions/emotes? It's been years. T_T

[muted bloom]

https://vrchat.canny.io/avatar-30/p/bugbuild-1004-avatars-30-emotes-on-index-do-not-have-root-transform-applied-prop

users with index controllers have Root.T dropped remotely when they do emotes.

looks fine for themselves

[strange spoke]

i've never noticed anything like this with my friends 0-0

[muted bloom]

You'd need to see then playing an emote that makes them walk around

they'll be walking in place

[timber jewel]

this looks hilarious
https://gfycat.com/fearfuldizzygangesdolphin

[muted bloom]

up and down motion is broadcast, but any side to side is killed

really visible in MMD dance worlds that have you walking around the stage

one person will just be standing in place

[timber jewel]

Kinda funny because the person who made this bug report now works for VRChat.

[muted bloom]

I know.

this bug has been the biggest thorn in my side for 3 years. and since you look perfect for yourself, very little people complain.

it's had me tempted to just get vive wands to avoid the bug.

[timber jewel]

ooof

I rarely use any dance animations etc, so I never really noticed it.

[muted bloom]

again you won't even notice it on yourself, you just look wrong to others

it pays perfectly locally

I have an AFK that sits me on the ground, everyone else sees me burried

[timber jewel]

Yeah ik, I mean I never noticed this on anyone else, or at least not as being a bug. ^^

[muted bloom]

Don't mind me, just being the squeeky wheel hoping some day it'll get addressed so I can go back to making cool emotes T_T

[timber jewel]

Well, let's hope it will be fixed ^^

[muted bloom]

me too

weirdest thing is, leave at least one tracked body part set to animation (has to be one that would visually ruin the animation), and the bug doesn't show up

[timber jewel]

weird

[dapper scarab]

I discovered triggering the default AFK animation and going back fixes this, because it forcefully is switched from local animation to NetIK

Root transform still needs to be fixed though :/

[vivid vector]

This bug has been super annoying and really aggravating me because it only affects index controller users

which aren't a huge percentage of VRChat players so maybe they just don't have the drive to fix it compared to all of the other stuff they're working on in the background

[inner kayak]

Kinda on the topic of root motion being wacky, one of my animations are a bit busted in VRC with IKBeta. I posted about it on the canny, but after more testing I believe it is my animation in particular that is broken, as other animations I've tried that also animate root rotation work fine.
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/root-motion-rotation-in-animations-applied-2x-locally

Live

IKBeta

Would anyone be able to point me in the right direction to fixing it and having it animate properly? I've got images and the actual animation clip linked on the canny.

[molten cobalt]

that's because crunch compression only helps with download size and you can probably make that mask texture lower-resolution

[mortal plume]

^

every texture is decompressed before being put into vram

so crunch compression does not help

[molten cobalt]

which is kind of why like detail Maps can be quite helpful so you're not having to make your textures 4K just to have repeating detail

https://twitter.com/VIANVOLAEUS/status/1517951135528665088?s=20&t=oL6rJLXqivUomB5L0BcWVg

𝗩𝗜𝗔𝗡𝗩𝗢𝗟𝗔𝗘𝗨𝗦 (@VIANVOLAEUS)

Single material, 3.3k △, using RGBA masked 256px normals in @poiyomi's shader. 🧵👇

Likes

260

▶ Play video

Twitter · Apr 23, 2022, 7:38 PM

https://twitter.com/VIANVOLAEUS/status/1517951160740687873?s=20&t=oL6rJLXqivUomB5L0BcWVg

𝗩𝗜𝗔𝗡𝗩𝗢𝗟𝗔𝗘𝗨𝗦 (@VIANVOLAEUS)

Back to shader: Can use seamless tiled normal maps per RGB area - tiny (128/256px) normal maps, but tiled around 50-100 times in the shader, giving you a higher effective TD.

You can combine these with an base nrm map for creases and baked normal details etc: (Blend with Base)

▶ Play video

Twitter · Apr 23, 2022, 7:38 PM

[river raven]

Modification of the VRChat application

There are NO "modifications" of the VRChat client that are considered safe or allowed, no exceptions.

Any application that interacts or modifies the VRChat application is a violation of the Terms of Service, and using it will result in your account being banned.

[timber jewel]

(original message was deleted by the user who wrote it)

[uncut walrus]

are we no longer allowed to have more than the recommended max number of phys bone colliders and such with the new sdk in the #open-beta-announcements ? cause i was able to upload my avi before i updated to that sdk, now i cant

[timber jewel]

On Quest that has been the case since it released. The Quest has a hard limit for Phys Bones.

[wheat fjord]

Anyone that's been keep up with this beta, think it will be released this week? Or are there major bugs that need to be fixed?

Seems like a pretty simple update vs physbones

Just getting excited! 😁

Hoping it comes out soon!

[uncut walrus]

I'm not trying to upload to quest though

[timber jewel]

Don't forget, this "simple" Update also has the new IK in it

[timber jewel]

hmm weird

[wheat fjord]

But that beta has been out for a while now, though

Have the bugs not been ironed out?

[timber jewel]

There are still a few issues here and there

I also haven't written bug reports about 2 of these I think, which I will do later this day.

[fallow rock]

The phys beta was around for like 2 months and it still had bugs/issues on release. Nothing’s perfect, there’s always things to work on.

But testing things is never a bad move especially when it’s such a massive update like this one is

[hazy linden]

This beta mainly has problems with syncing rn. Avatar parameters and udon arrays have issues syncing. Some worlds are completely broken, especially with a lot of people in them.
The IK side of it is pretty much fine, it's mainly the rest of it that's pretty buggy. I doubt it'll release this week.

[uncut walrus]

I'm gonna try switching build target to Android then back

[timber jewel]

I don't have any problems with there being a hard limit (Yes ik, this looks terrible but it's only there for performance testing.)

[uncut walrus]

So this actually seemed to have fix my issue

[fallow rock]

[timber jewel]

weird, maybe the SDK still thought it was in Android mode

[uncut walrus]

Either way, if anyone else has that issue now we know the fix at least

[near grove]

Cursed af

That is too cursed my guy

[gloomy dagger]

Sadly, I don't have an animation that moves my avatar away from root, so I don't think I can help. :<

[inner kayak]

[uncut walrus]

I should mention that your poly count is nothing compared to mine, so don't worry about that regard, I have multiple hair and clothing toggles

just thought it a funny fact at how high my polys are

[timber jewel]

are you telling me your Avatar has over 800000 Polygons? oooof how tf did you manage to do that

[uncut walrus]

It, uh, has over a million
14 different shirts
7 different hair
Like 8 or so pants
Tail and ears
A few misc items here and there
Multiple guns from Halo and Titanfall

Mind you almost all of them are disabled at any given time

[shrewd estuary]

just use material swaps br o

use material swaps for the shirts !!

[uncut walrus]

Material swaps?

[shrewd estuary]

yeah

you can do that

material swaps and radial puppets

[uncut walrus]

What is that, can it completely change a shirt from, say a t-shirt to a dress without the extra polygons that having the 2 objects would have?

[shrewd estuary]

no but it can switch between other shirts

[uncut walrus]

So like using an int param to choose which shirt is active

[shrewd estuary]

yeah

[uncut walrus]

Which is what I have already

[shrewd estuary]

itll help with the polygon count if you make the shirts into simple material swaps

[mortal plume]

my 10 pieces of clothing + the entire model is <90k

[proud vault]

What is the poly count on these shirts and pants such that they add up to much of anything

[mortal plume]

surely you don't need over a million tris

[uncut walrus]

Most of them aren't active at any given time, as I have quite a few int params to limit different spots to 1 item
Like only 3 guns can be enabled at once, and only 1 of those are bigger guns

I've made sure to keep the avatar optimized at runtime, even if it is a big avatar
So far no one has had any issues with it in any world I've been in

[mortal plume]

what about those 59 skinned meshes and 139 materials though

surely with the amount of toggles you said you have, you have a lot of meshes per item you're toggling, which could all be joined together

[uncut walrus]

Nope, only 1 mesh per item, so most of those are also disabled at a time
As for the materials, it's mostly between shiny black, black, white, metal, and if the item has a specific texture. If it has multiple textures, I atlased them together

[mortal plume]

for things like props that you won't really be editing the textures of, using CATS's Bake is very useful

reduces it all down to 1 mesh/1 mat

if you have UVPackmaster2, it uses that when repacking the islands

[uncut walrus]

I plan on reducing the materials and textures and such when I get most of the rest of my avatar setup, reason I haven't done it yet is due to not having enough of the avatar done to know how best to optimize it for what I need

[timber jewel]

why do you have 24 Phys Bone collider btw? xD

and 12 Audio Sources

[uncut walrus]

So the tail doesn't phase into the body, along with the scarf
Multiple colliders are also for the bullets for the machine gun I reuse the same bullets for all the guns to reduce colliders
Gonna need a collider for the weapons, but I haven't set those up cause imma see if I can use 1 then parent it around like I do the bullets and lights and just parent it to each gun
Equip sounds and fire sounds for individual guns, with similar sounds being parented around to reduce audio sources

[mortal plume]

keep in mind that Angle limits are nearly free in terms of performance, unlike colliders. you can use angle limits to prevent physbones from going into the body

[uncut walrus]

Issue about angle limits though is if you set the max limit based on pulling the tail straight up to the back, that means if you pull it straight out then you cant bend it upwards in the middle cause the angle limit at that bone doesn't know or care if the previous bone is at it's max or not

Unless I'm mistaken on how angle limits work

[mortal plume]

the limit determines how far each bone in the chain can move relative to their rest position

you can add a curve for the angle limit, to make it so that different bones in the chain have different max angles

you can use the Pitch Roll and Yaw fields to "offset" the angle aswell

and use curves for those aswell

[uncut walrus]

Meaning that if you setup, say a chain against your chest, so the angle starts at the rest and can move out for each one to not let it go into the body, then if you pull on half of it, the other half is gonna stick straight out cause it's gonna already be at it's max angle that way

Which is the basics of what I wanted to avoid for my tail so I can still grab it and move it in front of me, but not have it phase through my body in doing so

[near grove]

Even this should not exceed over 1 mil. please, please, just use the good ol blender to optimize these meshes. Unity still background loads and renders these models, and being this unoptimized is not healthy.

the 3080 can handle about 9.5mil tris, you are 1/9th of the gpu

That is TERRIBLE

not to add that this is in a falling opengl test, meaning it is just OGL rendering the model with limited libraries

And well, Unity has draw calls outside of just placing triangles on screen

[muted brook]

im pretty sure that gpus can handle more tris than that. the main issue is draw calls and such

[near grove]

nah, stress tested was 9.8 mil

that is A LOT

And well, this is without batch sizes, batch sizing can get you up to 14.2 mil

but the asset IS NOT batched

[wraith island]

you say that but all these meshes and textures are killing vram

please import this https://github.com/Thryrallo/VRCAvatarTools#vram-checker

and check

[near grove]

THANK YOU

[wraith island]

i really want to see the result, i cant imagine it being less than 200 MB

probably around 500 MB

btw can you already update sdk and use it in live?

[bright jungle]

yes, as long as you don't use more than 128 parameters

[timber jewel]

mine is around 500 MiB and you know how mine looks, I really don't want to know how bad this guys is

[near grove]

This is horendus

you are a model! (but with all caps)

please

if it isn't your materials and textures (which should only be a few and around 1024 to 1024 or 4096 to 4096 for atlas), then tune down on the vertexes, please...

[raw forge]

My avatar takes up 21mb and it has a ton of toggles and comprises of a 2k atlas

[near grove]

look at this

I like this

[raw forge]

The wonders of asset optimization

[near grove]

For real