open-beta-discussion

[timber jewel]

This month

[shrewd estuary]

freevrchatplus.exe

[olive hare]

that'd be pog

[timber jewel]

Yup pretty pog

[jade flicker]

I've been hearing reports from some people that the new bones are actually struggling with performance and are actually perform worse. I've yet to see this and disagree with that but just wondering if anyone has any performance issues

[bright jungle]

note that no official ETA has been given for the update

[hazy geode]

There fault

Just saying, something called a filter system exist

I can't send malicious files through Discord

[jade flicker]

lmao

[hazy geode]

Filtered half the time by Discord themselves

[jade flicker]

this dude

is he fr

of course you can

[olive hare]

Well I think my performance in non-beta is just my PC 😳

[bright jungle]

wrong channel for this, and I really don't feel like arguing semantics for like 30 minutes

[bright jungle]

perf has been great for me o:

[timber jewel]

Could you please stop the #general-media chat in here?

[jade flicker]

Where be the chat mods when ya need them

[hazy geode]

I was talking about features, this bera chat after all

[olive hare]

Well, I know I contributed, but this is more focused on the AD Beta

[jade flicker]

Not features of the current beta, you are suggesting ideas for a future build

[bright jungle]

this is a chat for the current open beta, not for feature requests

[timber jewel]

Go to #feature-requests if you want to, this channel is specific for the ongoing beta

[hazy geode]

Yea, I go to off topic and get my ass chewed for talking about VRChat

Hush

Lol

[olive hare]

ight imma go play minecraft ✌️

[jade flicker]

Have you noticed any difference between phys and dyn bones though? My PC also isn't the best but I haven't seen a difference and honestly thought phys were better

[olive hare]

I've barely used the beta

[timber jewel]

I have done testing earlier with Dynamic Bones I had 270 FPS with Phys Bones I had 290 FPS

https://streamable.com/a05l2r

[bright jungle]

physbones are much more lightweight, and use more than one core unlike Dynamic Bones

[olive hare]

it's also mainly with other people's avatars but I dont want to change my prefs because I don't want to have to enable people's avatars when i need to ||Lazy 100||

[jade flicker]

Fair enough, same here. Most of my mates don't touch the beta so I kinda haven't bothered putting a huge amount of effort into creating unique stuff yet which is unfortunate as I've seen and lot and also have a good amount of ideas planned out

[olive hare]

I've tried it for 1.5-2 hours max

in total

But it's still interesting

[jade flicker]

I am hoping this gets pushed live soon

[olive hare]

absolutely

[jade flicker]

but that is just hope lol

[olive hare]

Well in #open-beta-announcements they mention how it's not a release candidate yet so I'm guessing there's one coming soon

[timber jewel]

There aren't many big feature request left, it mostly just comes down to fixing issues now

[tender dome]

wheres my haptic feedback

[jade flicker]

Yeah god progress has been made

[bright jungle]

hapticspls

[olive hare]

I think after my Minecraft session I'll check out the beta

[molten cobalt]

people have hooked up haptic vest to vrchat using open Sound control and Avatar Dynamics

[tender dome]

im talking about with physbones

interact with hair and your controller go brrr

that sort of thing

[bright jungle]

also, being able to use colliders to affect other people's physbones could be cool

[near grove]

my hype is unreal

[olive hare]

wait there's vibration support for other people's avatars??? (NOT IN A WEIRD WAY)

I just think like pushing a button will feel real

Like the little showcase robot dude

but immersive

[inner kayak]

i stole it

[sullen elk]

I really want haptic feedback so I know when I’m in range to grab something

[near grove]

unlikely, but theres an unfortunate chance of sdk 2 avatars/worlds not working in the future

probably not any time soon but… a possibility several years down the line

[inner creek]

Please no

[opal pasture]

The hair has three bones (left, right and middle) but not a single one is being animated when I leave the root transform as none; does this have something to do with them being parented to the head?

[inner creek]

Sipbox, my controllers don't last enough as is, I don't need them to go brr more.

[open kite]

You can actually already do some trickery to achieve that effect

[tender dome]

but i dont want trickery

[open kite]

I knowwwww

[tender dome]

make it a toggle, ez

[open kite]

It would be sick but also kind of abusable I guess

[timber jewel]

what "bug" ?

[raven laurel]

all i see is error in console

[small surge]

🤔 uuh

[hazy geode]

Which is odd.... VRChat runs on unity 2019.... Which that version don't support multi core...

[small surge]

nice ripped model there

[timber jewel]

true

[hazy geode]

VRChat on it's own runs on 1 core,

[timber jewel]

no....

[bright jungle]

wth are you on about

[hazy geode]

Yess?

[bright jungle]

you can open task manager right now and see that it runs on multiple cores

dynamic bones is singlethreaded, the game is multithreaded

[timber jewel]

VRChat has always been multi threaded

[bright jungle]

do you really think that every Unity game from 2019 and back is singlethreaded

[hazy geode]

Then it sucks,

Cuz I check my live processes

I only get 1 core used

[raven laurel]

first check console and all errors.

[hazy geode]

I have a 6 core processor

[timber jewel]

yeah, thats because of db...

[bright jungle]

1: cropped screenshot with no source
2: cropped screenshot with misinfo

[small surge]

casually post a image showing its a ripped model, expect help 🤔

[timber jewel]

ah yes, single threaded

[bright jungle]

disable DBs on live via the config file, then check your CPU usage

alternatively, check your usage on the beta

[hazy geode]

If you want me to short the source I can. But I've herd from more than one person it was one core.

[bright jungle]

yes, because that's incredibly common misinformation that's been spread since DBs have been in the game lol

[hazy geode]

Windows 11?

[small surge]

Never one core, dynamic bone is only thing left

[bright jungle]

hearing it from multiple people does not mean it's true

a lot of people say the earth is flat lmao

[timber jewel]

yeah and?

[hazy geode]

I want to use windows 11 so bad, but Oculus says it isn't supported

=w=

[gritty moat]

Can someone tell how to add physbones to a quest avatar?

[raw forge]

Windows 11 is bad in itself

[hazy geode]

Ah I see

I was wrong

[tender dome]

take it from someone who likes windows 11, don't.

windows 10 is still much more stable

[hazy geode]

Yeaaa

Ig

Only peace of software stopping me from upgrading though is this:

1. Wallpaper Engine
2. Oculus
3. The Idea if needing to fix my settings all over again

But that's a convo for another day

Would it be smart to use the beta SDK and get all my current models ready for the new update?

Or should I just wait

[sullen elk]

I feel like my new build coming with Win 11 was a mistake because I feel like I nerfed my OP gear :(

[wheat pelican]

Any updates on the release date?

[timber jewel]

nope

[wheat pelican]

Alright thanks

[hollow hatch]

If there was, it would be in the announcement channel likely

[queen geyser]

Is there anyway to get rid of the open beta to get back to the live version that actually works on quest 2 because I would really like to know so I can get back to my friends

[hard pond]

toggle on app/website to live, uninstall, wait hour, then install again.

[queen geyser]

Okay I’ll try that

[tender dome]

what are good use cases for "hinge" and "polar" angle limit types?

[timber jewel]

For Polar I would say hair, strings on a hoodie and so on

so small things on your body which you don't want to go through the body

Hinge is more for funny stuff like levers etc.

not that useful for normal stuff

I use it to pull the cap of my hoodie over my head for example

[tender dome]

Wouldn't angle be better for those things? Especially with the extra performance cost of Polar

[timber jewel]

hmmm I would say you can use both

but yeah you could use angle for that true

Hai made this with polar:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/449386885299830794/962644387538534420/sx_2022-04-10_11-24-27_QEtlI8385A.mp4

[sullen elk]

I use Hinge when I want to measure the angle of a swing but at only one specific orientation relevant to the prop, i.e. swords.

[timber jewel]

thats also what I do for the cap of my hoodie

Use hinge to get the exact Angle value of the Phys Bone to then use that for a blend tree

[sullen elk]

I don't see Polar having as many use cases however it is nice to constrain yourself into movement within only two axis instead of full three without having to be equivalent to hinge.
It's Hinge+

[timber jewel]

yup

[sullen elk]

Quality use case for Polar lmao

[timber jewel]

lmao

there was a canny for something like Polar:
https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1184-request-anisotropic-maxangle-with-offset

there are a few reasons for it in there I think

[tender dome]

im seeing it as like, hinge for one axis, polar for two axis, angle for three axis

[timber jewel]

thats a good use case for polar

[inner kayak]

i use hinge on my keychain

and max angle rotation to limit it so it doesnt clip with my body

[sullen elk]

That's a very smart use ^^

[outer python]

Nice I like it

[muted bloom]

Polar is good for anything that you want to swing a lot horizontally but only a little vertically, etc

Since the polar angle limit is sort of a rectangle drawn on a sphere with dimensions you pick

Pure angle limit is a circle drawn on a sphere

[inner kayak]

is there any way to keep the bone from doing a 180 when its pulled opposite of its rest pose?

ima just assume thats how the math works, but its annoying and means i'll need to have my chains point backwards at rest to combat it

[tropic forge]

I am not sure about avatar DB visible disappeared bug. I know what cause by use afk steam overlay in Live. That avatar is DB and upload by 2022.04.08.17.32 SDK. I don't know about beta because I can't ask people in public. my friends busy. I am deaf. I can't conversation without keyboard chat or draw ink.

[wintry notch]

Are there any tutorials on how to make an avatar togglable button that plays audio with a receiver

[wintry notch]

I'm trying to make it so that whenever the contact is touched, audio plays but it won't play

[muted brook]

would yall recommend I convert my avis over now? or do yall think that there are some more major changes in the pipeline?

[timber jewel]

I don't think there are any major changes in the pipeline, I would bet it will mostly just be bug fixes now

Apparently the Force On button doesn't work when you have your Avatar Interaction set to Friends only, it does seem to work fine though when you have set it to Nobody.

https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1188-force-on-does-not-work-when-avatar-interaction-is-set-to-friends-only

[keen nova]

Quest 2 just arrived, time to test out AD bones on the quest.
(And struggle to get off the beta, lol)

[drowsy quiver]

oh oof that looks like some gimbal locking

[tropic forge]

avatar with DB and upload by 2022.04.08.17.32 SDK is broken on only live. when you went to afk. it made avatar visible disappeared. no problem in open-beta.

[warm cedar]

I don't wanna sound rude, but I had a stroke reading that

[vague wolf]

Who here is counting down the days for the live release of the avatar dynamics

[wheat fjord]

Given tupper's last message it sounds like a release candidate is coming soon

I'm eagerly awaiting release but at the same time, if something isn't working on release, I just hope they fix it without breaking updates. Don't want breaking updates in general (that cause us to have to rework our avis physbones and other AD components). The last breaking update was managable, but I did lose some angle values that weren't in my quest versions (I used the old quest angle values as a reference because it wasn't not at all outlined that we'd lose angle limits). As long as that doesn't happen from now on. I'm good with a release at this point. Intertia's been added.

They most likely want to make sure all bugs are gone before release, though, and there's probably some things I haven't experienced personally.

Wouldn't be surprised if this Friday or next we see the first (and hopefully last) release candidate.

[vague wolf]

Oh damn

I havnt worked with Dynamic Bones for a bit so I didn’t know about this

Does the chest have separate bones? Like for each breast and such?

[wheat fjord]

Inertia was missing until last update and it really broke some effects, like my knife system. Now, even the conversion system gets it I think perfectly.

Do this

Create a gameobject that's a copy of the chest

Put a physbone on it

no movement?

Oh you have end bones

You could also put them on the Breast_L and Breast_R

There's just no breast root, but it can be done either of those ways

How exactly is it clipping?

what is your angle type set to?

Do you have a gravity value?

can you screenshot the settings you used

also screenshot the view with the physbone gizmos showing

You can use snipping tool btw

or xshare

for screenshots

this is the problem the ends are set to the floor and ceiling

let me look at your settings

You entered an endpoint on X

remove the endpoint on X and show me the result in unity after that

[inner kayak]

update your sdk

[wheat fjord]

Yeah that is the old sdk too

[inner kayak]

where’s the advanced mode? where’s gravity falloff

[wheat fjord]

shes using the old one but it that's not the only problem

she has an endpoint position on x

where those cones are is where the bones are going to move

they should be point outward towards the breasts

not to the ceiling or floor

remove the endpoint position from x

screencap?

the scene view

[inner kayak]

the sdk is different in vrchat and in unity because you are using an old version
update your sdk before continuing to debug #open-beta-announcements

there will be differences if you aren't up to date

[wheat fjord]

yeah this is the sdk you should update to - but before you do

[inner kayak]

[small surge]

That person is using a ripped model, earlier screenshot shows it > #open-beta-discussion message

[wheat fjord]

make sure you take NOTE of your angle limits!

https://files.vrchat.cloud/sdk/VRCSDK3-AVATAR-2022.04.14.17.35_Public.unitypackage

[inner kayak]

detective thulen

[wheat fjord]

make sure before you update, you record on a notepad or screenshot your angle limit values

the new sdk will affect them

I was able to get all my avatars working on the older sdks just fine

[wheat fjord]

Yeah... there's even a folder in the project view called "Asset Ripper"

[shrewd estuary]

so how's the open beta

[wheat fjord]

Improved a considerable amount

[shrewd estuary]

i hope they add the handshake nameplate icons back
they were more helpful imo

[wheat fjord]

Yeah I liked that, too, but I could see how some users found that confusing so now they just show if YOU can interact with that user

They're kinda expecting you to know your own settings

[shrewd estuary]

true

[wheat fjord]

with the new blacklist system, I can see how their might be reason for it to make a comeback, but I'm not too concerned. I think you easily reset that list just like you can with volume settings per user

I'm not sure if its a blacklist or whitelist or both

But you can set interaction on a per user basis as well now

[shrewd estuary]

ye

[wheat fjord]

I wouldn't want to be whitelisting a ton of people, it's likely gonna be a blacklist for me but in certain publics I may set it to friends only

In the open beta I just have it set to everyone

[opal pasture]

does anyone have any idea why I can't seem to put any physics on the hair bones? does it have something to do with them being parented to the head?

[timber jewel]

you need to set an endpoint

or manually add end bones to the Avatar Armature

Unity has no concept of bone length that's why you need an end point so Phys Bones know where to end

[opal pasture]

What i mean more-so is that even if I select the hair bones as the root transform, literally nothing happens

They're the only part other than the head itself that won't work

[indigo sluice]

not sure if it's worth reporting, but it's only happened to me while in the beta - occasionally i'll get a "connection to VRchat lost" message, and the world will boot me, reload the same instance, and continue as usual. but one time that this happened, no audio data came through (avatars mouths not moving, not being able to hear people talk, world audio was fine) and I reset VRchat to get back to normal.

this last weekend i was in vrchat (not in beta) for maybe 5 hours straight and this never happened, but i got the error 3 times within a 2 hour session with the beta earlier today (where the audio bug also occurred) I hope this information helps! I'm very impressed w/ the beta so far

[noble bramble]

Proximity float jumps to 0 when receiver is disabled, even if synced. Any way to preserve the value?

[mossy python]

You could use a parameter driver

Have the parameter for the proximity contact drive another parameter and stop driving it when your contact is disabled

[noble bramble]

but parameter driver can drive only specific value, not range from 0 to 1

[mossy python]

You can make 10 or 20 different states with parameter drivers that get driven by your proximity contact I mean

Unless it has to be a super smooth animation which at that point not sure how to tackle your issue

[noble bramble]

yea i figured its possible this way, but i dont really want to create 20 states for each layer.

thanks though

[open kite]

Yep very much possible

You just need a single Animation State

[noble bramble]

How exactly?

[open kite]

You just make a 1 second Animation that Animates a Float from 0 to 1 and then use the Float from the Contact as the Motion Time of the Animation State, then when disabling the Contact you just transition from that State to an Idle and it will preserve the value

[noble bramble]

How can animation animate a float? which object holds this parameter?

[open kite]

You literally just add the Float to your Animation as a property

[open kite]

@noble bramble

[noble bramble]

Thanks a lot, i got the general idea and technique, but for some reason when i play animation it locks parameter on 0 even though float is animated like you showed.

[open kite]

Why is it animating 2 floats?

[noble bramble]

just playing around since first one didnt work

[open kite]

Aight gotcha

Write Defaults Off?

[noble bramble]

on

[open kite]

Gotta turn it off for this

Otherwise it wont save

The Animation should be set to loop

And the Animation state should look like this

"Input" being the Float from the Contact

Ignore the Write Defaults On in that picture I was just messing around, but it has to be off on the empty state

[wintry notch]

Can someone explain why it won't transition from the off state to the on state?

[open kite]

Have you tried without the Emulator?

[wintry notch]

Yeah

Should I turn it off?

[open kite]

The contacts arent on your Avatar?

[wintry notch]

Do they have to be on my avi?

aight

[open kite]

The Receiver has to be yeah

Senders dont have to be on the Avi in order for the Receiver to notice them

But the Receiver is what sends the value to your Avatar, so it has to be somewhere on there

[wintry notch]

I dragged it in

still wont play

[open kite]

What about disabling the Emulator now

[wintry notch]

No change

[open kite]

Move your Sender inside the Receiver and check the Inspector of the Receiver

It shows you the value here

[wintry notch]

Ill change it to proximity

I also do not have those values

[noble bramble]

Thanks a lot for suggestions, it seems that my project has some issues, works great in new clean one.

[open kite]

None at all?

Tags are probably messed up then

[open kite]

You have to go into playmode

[wintry notch]

It's still at 0

[open kite]

Its important that the empty state that the Float Animation transitions to is actually empty, no Animation, if there's an Animation in there the Float will not save and reset to 0

[open kite]

Do your tags match?

[wintry notch]

Yeah

[open kite]

Can you go into playmode and move the sender into the receiver and take a picture of the Inspector of both the sender and receiver with the scene visible?

[wintry notch]

Sure

[open kite]

Your Sender has negative radius lmao

[wintry notch]

o

oop

Now it's working

[open kite]

Awesome

[wintry notch]

Audio wont play

I cannot hear anything

[open kite]

Does your Main Camera have a Audio Listener Component on it

And is it enabled

[wintry notch]

Yup

I had my PC muted 💀

[open kite]

😭

[hard thunder]

i just built an avatar with a bunch of shaders that definitely do not have instanced rendering, how do i get the errors to show up

[wintry notch]

The animation now plays, but when I make the sender touch the receiver, audio wont play, but the animation does

[open kite]

Play on awake is on?

And you're actually turning off the audio source at the start of the animation and then activate it after 3 frames?

[wintry notch]

No

[wintry notch]

Yeah

[wintry notch]

wdym

[open kite]

Well I don't know your exact setup

[wintry notch]

I could show you my frames

[open kite]

But you have to disable the audio and reactivate it for the sound to actually play

The best way to do this is deactivate the Audio Source for the first 3 frames, turn it on for the exact amount of time the audio plays, then turn it off for 3 frames

No lopp on either the audio source or the animation

[wintry notch]

The animation plays properly and everything

Just not on playmode when I move the sender

play on awake is ticked

[viscid knoll]

ummm im having a wierd issue atm. for some reason my whole avatar is actingly like the whole thing is a phy bone.

the avatar was working fine, then i added some colliders. but now that i've gotten rid of them, im still all floppy

there isnt a physbone for the hip at all in my project so i'm thoughouly confused

[warm cedar]

Showing the issue, would be an ideal step from here

[wintry notch]

I am about to snap lmao why won't it play in the scene

[warm cedar]

whatcha issue my friend

[wintry notch]

Scroll up

[warm cedar]

Lemme read and get up to speed

[warm cedar]

This issue?

[wintry notch]

Yeah

[warm cedar]

Because I know that audio doesn't disable itself sometimes

[wintry notch]

It's frustrating

idk what I'm doing wrong

[warm cedar]

check for any errors in the animation for that

Always disable the component, if not twice, with 'play on awake', if it doesn't get disabled, it won't play again

[wintry notch]

It is disabled

[warm cedar]

then play the animation, and keep an eye out for the component, if it's set to 'play on awake', and isn't playing, well you practically have narrowed it down to only a couple of causes really

either it be volume, pitch, the audiotrack itself (which I doubt would case the issue) or the enabling/disabling in the anim

[wintry notch]

The audio source wont even turn on when I touch the reciever

[warm cedar]

Could you send me the component the audiosource is on, just to be clear, it's only 1 audiosource on the component, correct?

[wintry notch]

yup

I really wish this server had voice channels

[warm cedar]

are you disabling the object, or the component here?

[wintry notch]

Component

[warm cedar]

okay don't wanna make you feel/sound stupid but make sure you're not disabling/enabling the object

if the component is disabled, enabling the object won't change the component itself

[wintry notch]

It is enabled

Or do I disable the component or the object?

[open kite]

You keep the Component on and toggle the object with the animation

[warm cedar]

^

Or vice versa, toggle the component but keep the object active

[wintry notch]

o

so

[open kite]

Also increase your minimum radius a bit or move main cam closer to the audio source because your audio listener can barely hear the audio

[warm cedar]

It's kinda like a child of a gameobject, if the child is disabled, enabling the parent won't enable the child.

[viscid knoll]

this is what i'm getting

[open kite]

Oops all phys bones

[warm cedar]

Oh Lord I'm laughing my ass off, this look hilarious!

But could you check any physbone components you have on the avi?

if you don't have any physbone components... at that point just reinstall the sdk

[wintry notch]

So do I not mess with the component on the animation?

[viscid knoll]

oh i do have physbones, but none are set. these were actually autoconverted from dynamic ones XD

[warm cedar]

Lav, your component is default disabled, correct?

what does the animation for sound do?

[wintry notch]

enable and disable the component

[warm cedar]

Is the object itself also enabled?

[wintry notch]

yes

[warm cedar]

Could you quickly show those animations?

[wintry notch]

I feel stupid at this point

[warm cedar]

Don't, unity is hard and we all hit roadblocks once in a while

we're here to help, we'll get this fixed!

[wintry notch]

I am like so used to being called dumb because of my poor comprehension

[warm cedar]

Not when I'm helping

Could you move to timestamp 3:10 (the next keyframe) please

Look I don't want to add extra work I just want to be 100% sure

[warm cedar]

Nono, the bar not just selecting it

[wintry notch]

oh

which bar?

I am so sorry

[olive hare]

Tomorrow marks one week since last beta (Unless we somehow get one tonight 👀???)

[warm cedar]

Okay those look fine, good that we checked it though!

Check the animator, does the animation play properly?

is there any exit time on the animator?

[wintry notch]

No exit time

it does play on the FX layer

[warm cedar]

What about the states themselves, do they have the proper animation in them? (common mistake I tend to make myself)

[wintry notch]

Yup

[viscid knoll]

ok, i think i figured my issue out. the physbones apperently go all wack if the armature is disabled. afaik i fixed it simply by reapplying the right bones (aka i have more than one version of this avatar in the file so when i tried copy pasting the dynamic bone back again when i was having issues earlier it kept the reference to the disabled bone armature)

[warm cedar]

Don't get your hopes up, the beta will come when it comes Wasn't directed towards you 😅

[warm cedar]

So you fixed it? or fixed it partially?

[wintry notch]

?

[warm cedar]

Wrong reply, whoopsie

[warm cedar]

Don't get your hopes up, the beta will come when it comes

[olive hare]

yea

[viscid knoll]

it seems to have fixed it fixed it, the avatar is now not all bendy wendy. xD now i can maybe go back and see if i can get the phys colliders i was wanting to work to work.

[warm cedar]

I'd just say check it during a play in the editor, pay close attention to the components and states

[warm cedar]

You're making progress, that's necessarily what counts

Lav, Knowing how annoying audio in animations can be, I really want to help you here

[wintry notch]

The component does not turn on when the animation plays

[warm cedar]

❗ This is super important!

[viscid knoll]

i would think though that having a reference to a nonexistant/disabled bone would just mean the physbone would stop working not like idk what the hell it was doing XD

[warm cedar]

Go to the animation, and check the name of the property in the list

lemme show yu

Double click this, check the path

[wintry notch]

Can I DM call you

[warm cedar]

Surely

[wintry notch]

enabled

[timber jewel]

why is my plane collider there?

it should be below me normally

and not in front of me

okay I know why

at least I have an idea

[inner kayak]

it wanted to be one step ahead of you

[timber jewel]

it only seems to happen when I disable my locomotion with my custom locomotion controller

enabling it again makes it come back

@silver ledge any idea why locomotionfix LITE could cause this?
The floor collider is a child of my Armature

it happens when I look down

[near grove]

I really hope the beta comes out as a normal release soon

[timber jewel]

maybe they were right

[hard pond]

let it see. maybe in few hour

[timber jewel]

hopfully

[mossy python]

I doubt we see anything before the weekend

My guess is Friday or Saturday we see a release candidate and Monday or Tuesday we get the update

[timber jewel]

internal beta = beta update in a few hours

(if the beta has no major issues)

[olive hare]

Epic Pog Moment

[hard pond]

yeap, there is no limit how many update to beta can do per week so no issue update tonight even.

but more likely bug fix.

[olive hare]

But to quote Might, don't get your hopes up (or too high)

[hard pond]

Hope is priceless, you can do however you want to hope for.

[olive hare]

Yeah

[warm cedar]

It's generally because the excitement of actually getting the update is even better when you didn't have any hopes for it

like if they were to release it tomorrow out of nowhere, nobody was hoping/expecting it

[olive hare]

Yeah

[warm cedar]

So generally, just go through your day not expecting an update, best way to keep your adrenaline down and yourself calm

[hard pond]

xD

[olive hare]

I know I keep replying "yeah" to things, I just don't know what else to say 😅

[warm cedar]

Better than no response at all I suppose XD

[olive hare]

Ironically I don't know what to say to agree lol

besides yeah

[signal condor]

well

internal beta is pretty close

i’m hoping soon, but not too much cuz it’s a huge update

i hate having to swap between beta and live and keep signing into my account

[hard pond]

Let's go

[timber jewel]

[hard pond]

hahaha, fun]

[timber jewel]

tupper is typing in #open-beta-announcements

[hard pond]

yeap

[timber jewel]

:3

[hard pond]

coming

let's check

[short jasper]

OOOH

[sullen elk]

oh my god it's time

[barren wigeon]

OPMG

[hard pond]

ohh world sdk

[slate wolf]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/689188817374281779.webp?size=48&quality=lossless

[near grove]

Does this mean the update is out?

[keen lantern]

"- Additionally, on the Quest, PhysBones components will be removed if they exceed the Very Poor limits, even if you click "Show Avatar""

👀 lets goooo

[muted brook]

its the release candidate

[near grove]

ah

[keen lantern]

im all for more hard limits on quest

especially given the possibility for overuseage

[vague wolf]

OMGGGG!!!!

[oblique crag]

lets go, release soon

[molten cobalt]

yeah that's a good idea hard cap the quest

[quasi bramble]

YESSSSSSSS

[near grove]

oh

[timber jewel]

I really hope this will be fixed before a relapse
https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1187-small-bones-no-longer-move-at-all-with-physbones

[near grove]

i was saying very hype for it in all caps 😭

Is a fix for the avatar tracking loss with seat prefabs planned to be implemented at the time of the full release of this beta? Or will that be held off on until the ik-2-beta is launched fully?

[amber prairie]

My body is ready

[sullen elk]

Isn't that more of a your Seated Animator thing or the Chair's Override Animator thing?

[near grove]

I am not sure what the exact issue is with it, all I know is it affects all AV3 avatars.

[shrewd estuary]

AAH

update jumpscare

[hollow mason]

a

[near grove]

Open beta instance:

[quasi bramble]

also can someone tell me how to setup a physbones grab with a blendshape? I dont know how to quite set it up

[sullen elk]

https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/vrc_station
Maybe you have a setting creating an issue.

[topaz void]

@near grove can you like not be in a world that's 200+ Mb pls xD

[near grove]

There was a pretty lengthy discussion about it in #ik-2 . This part was when talking about some possibilities concerning it: #ik-2 message

It happens with various seats with different versions of the issue with any AV3 avatar. It is weird how the behavior differs.

[sullen elk]

If you have knowledge of how the Unity Animators work.
Define a parameter on the phys bone, you'll now be able to use the parametername_IsGrabbed
Define that parameter in your FX animator
Make an FX Layer and Animation State with that parameter.

[obsidian wagon]

anyone know whats new about the world sdk?

[sullen elk]

Oh neat, it's the same issue that I had from ages ago with the introduction of AV3 I believe.

The Animator is aborted before it can reach its reset/restore tracking state.
https://youtu.be/yPNe3FqXTfM

I say the same because it seems to have the same root cause going on.

[wraith island]

cant join for some reason

[quasi bramble]

same

[wraith island]

clicking on join does nothing

[ancient bridge]

(boo)

[sullen elk]

I've had a bunch of people in VRC Events mention that the Discord live presence join doesn't work

[wraith island]

mmh, personally i never use them

well i cant really create these invites

i have default rpc from vrchat disabled to override it

[near grove]

Main instance was broken, new one:

[wraith island]

still doesnt work

[muted brook]

anyone got some good settings for a tail?

[wraith island]

pls use join urls

[sinful breach]

did they add the automatic dynbones -> physbones conversion or do you have to rig things again?

[viscid knoll]

there is an automated system atm

[sinful breach]

woo, thank goodness

[wraith island]

why i only get 60fps on open beta

i cant get more

[sinful breach]

thank you, I'll hop in to see if everything is in proper order

[near grove]

https://vrch.at/jc7wwf06

there

[wraith island]

thx

[viscid knoll]

yeahit should autoconvert on the client side to physbones, unless you turn the performance option off to not do that. then it'll use dynamic bones (for now)

[wraith island]

im getting a shit ton of screen tearing on open beta

[modern tree]

is it just me, or is the wording of "## Changes - PhysBones (...)" kinda incorrect?

[wraith island]

what was the launch option to change fps again? Im getting less than my monitors refresh rate

the screen tearing looks awful

[modern tree]

--fps? just, you know, read the docs?

[stone rapids]

Man, the hard limit to all very poor avatars disabling physbones stinks. I get it, but that’s going to limit a lot of people.

[sullen elk]

What's incorrect?

[molten cobalt]

if they didn't do that the headset would probably melt

[sullen elk]

If Quest users had to convert a 6k collision check DB model they'd never get past startup

[hazy linden]

If they dont want to be limited, they can always just save up for a pc and use pcvr instead

[molten cobalt]

and this is still a vast improvement over the previous status quo

[wraith island]

vrchat needs v-sync

[modern tree]

overall i cannot understand what's really being told there.

and "- Remember: On Quest, the Minimum Displayed Perf Rank is set to Very Poor by default, and cannot be turned off. On PC, this is turned off by default" seems like it's completely mistaken. on Quest, according to docs, default MDPR is medium, not very poor. it literally cannot be set to very poor. also it's not really "turned off" on PC. it cannot technically be "turned off". it's "very poor", which has the same result, but still, technically different thing.

[wraith island]

oh in recordings its not visible

[modern tree]

are you using steamvr's motion smoothing? yeah, turn it off.

[wraith island]

im on desktop

[modern tree]

it makes stuff wiggly sometimes

oh

[wraith island]

screen tearing on open beta is absolutely abysmal. Every centimeter i move the camera the screen is tearing apart completely

[sullen elk]

So Very Poor is the wrong default minimum, it's Medium.

But anyways, here's what's being stated.

Users set their Minimum Displayed Rank
If you have Phys Bones past that rank, they're all removed.
But Quest also has a defined Very Poor rank.
If ANYONE is above Very Poor with phys bones, it is all removed on that model.
That is the hard limit.

[wraith island]

i really cant show recordings of that happening since its not visible there

[shrewd estuary]

use your phone to record the monitor

[modern tree]

so am i right that if, for example, i set the MDPR to "poor" and someone has an otherwise excellent avatar with many PB that make it "very poor", then i will see his avatar normally, just without the PB, instead of it being replaced entirely by a fallback?

[sullen elk]

The components won't be on the avatar in the first place so you'd see their avatar.

Sounds like it'd be stripped away on upload.

[wraith island]

not visible there either lol

[shrewd estuary]

are your eyes just being fucky

[sullen elk]

Your eyes are broken D:

[wraith island]

no

[shrewd estuary]

octo forgot to update their eyes as well

[modern tree]

err, no. SDK part says "the components will be removed at runtime"

[quasi bramble]

whenever I try to test grabbing in unity all it does is the selection box thing

how do I fix this?

[shrewd estuary]

camera tag "MainCamera"

[sullen elk]

So you'll see see the avatar, the components don't exist on the avatar now lol

[shrewd estuary]

click play button in unity

if i remember correctly that's how

[muted brook]

so would all the dynamics components get removed at runtime if you are over that limit or only some of them?

[modern tree]

it says all

those are the clear parts

[molten cobalt]

basically it's not possible to upload very poor physics bones at all

[modern tree]

on quest only.
and technically it's possible, just nobody will ever see them.

[olive surge]

Are the devs aware that phys bones don't work at all on Quest in 1189 build?

[wraith island]

is it possible to somehow force V-Sync for VRChat?

[plain orchid]

you have screen tearing?

[quasi bramble]

what do i tag "Main Camera"?

[wraith island]

yes abysmal

[modern tree]

enforce it in settings of your graphics card for vrc or all programs

[wraith island]

if i move the screen tears constantly

[shrewd estuary]

a camera

reply fail

[shrewd estuary]

a camera

you can just put a camera in the project and give it that tag iirc
memory's foggy

[quasi bramble]

thank you but it seems like my Grab thing is not working either

Can someone help me please :/

[hollow sky]

Is it just me or did most avatars' physbones just stop working?

:(

[near grove]

So I’m not the only one-..

[wraith island]

this worked thx, made a nvidia control panel rule for vrchat and force V-Sync on it

[shrewd estuary]

vrchat machine broke?

[silver hamlet]

Yeah, all the bones in them just completely disappeared

[hollow sky]

Even in the avatars I uploaded myself

I'm gonna cry if I have to update them

[hazy linden]

There is a canny for them being broken on quest https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1189-phys-bones-currently-arent-working-on-quest-at-the-moment

[hard pond]

so....physbone broken currently in general?

[tender dome]

quest has hard limits for physbones now

[hazy linden]

I havent noticed any physbones breaking on pc

[tender dome]

so if the physbones on a quest avatar exceed 64 transforms or 8 components, it gets removed

i assume many physbone avatars that have been uploaded for quest until now have been uploaded with numbers far beyond that

[shrewd estuary]

inb4 "why my avatar broken"

wait that's already happened

[wraith island]

im already fine

[molten cobalt]

yeah wouldn't surprise me

[wraith island]

mine are rated medium on quest

[molten cobalt]

yeah I think mine was medium

[wraith island]

my quest avatar still has a better rating than my pc versions xd

[shrewd estuary]

you should use your optimization techniques for your avatars pc build as well

[wraith island]

aka no features since thats why quest has better rating

[hollow sky]

This is dumb

[shrewd estuary]

everything that's on the pc version of my avatar is also on quest

[wraith island]

only the pen and locomotion is on quest from my pc stuff

[shrewd estuary]

the one trail renderer pen that's on my avatar drives the performance rank down to poor alone

[hollow sky]

I spent hours adding physbones just for this to happen

[shrewd estuary]

the fact that it's now above 35,000 polys doesn't help

(i added props, it was 28k before)

[tender dome]

optimize

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[wraith island]

if i would add literally anything to my quest avatar it would immediately go very poor

just a single poly is enough

[oak anvil]

Why is the phys all messed up?

[hollow sky]

Bruh

[shrewd estuary]

certified trail renderer, 6 materials, 2 mesh renderers, and 36k polys moment

[tender dome]

#open-beta-discussion message

[wraith island]

im exactly on the limits between poor and very poor for quest

[shrewd estuary]

hey at least it's rated good on pc

[hollow sky]

Bruh

[river wedge]

super excited for AD to come to live 😄

[wraith island]

found a wild Herp

[stable mantle]

Ugh Im still not able to get the physbone emulator to work on one of my model. Even with fresh scenes and no animator controllers applied.

But it works if its not enabled at editor playtime.

Whyyyyyyyyy

[silver hamlet]

I'm confused since the bones on quest were perfectly fine before the update?

[wraith island]

also rip PumkinTools, had to delete it with newest sdk update

[tender dome]

#open-beta-discussion message

[wraith island]

since it got compile errors

[stable mantle]

Because before the update there were no limits.

TL:DR Update added limits.

[hollow sky]

Then why not leave it that way

It was way better

[stable mantle]

Performance in numbers.

[fallow rock]

It’s nice to know no one is reading the updates xD

[hollow sky]

Bruh

[tender dome]

because quest is not a gaming pc

[stable mantle]

Dont want crashers on Quest. People were already talking about making bone crashers.

[hollow sky]

I can't even fix my avis

[wraith island]

there are already enough quest clappers out there

[hazy linden]

Vrc also plans on eventually entirely removing showing very poor avatars on quest. You shouldnt be designing for it anyway

[tender dome]

physbones can still be abused. too many of them will cause problems still. this is especially gonna be a problem on weaker hardware like the quest

[wet bluff]

completely off topic, but I had no idea nitro boosters had access to external emotes

[tender dome]

limits are needed.

[shrewd estuary]

people when they see other people using the "InFeRiOr PlAtFoRm":

[wraith island]

eventually, so since over a year ago

[hazy linden]

Yeah, we'll see if it ever happens. The warning is most likely only there incase Meta ever decides to crack down eventually on quest performance

[wraith island]

no more than 2 years already

that warning exists since i began playing in 2020 already

and killing very poor on quest would like kill the vast majority of avatars there where the selection already isnt that great

[modern flame]

This change is gonna result in so much confusion from quest users

[fading wave]

Does this mean any avatars with the old bones system will break?

[bright pewter]

I want y'all to be brave and strong. When this goes to Live. You'll be the ones with the knowledge. Pass it onto the others as they ask and cry like babies begging to be spoonfed an entire new system's worth of info into their tiny brains. Be patient with them. Thank you.

[humble pulsar]

No, I’ve done a lot of testing with old avatars. Heck even sdk 2 avatars for fun and the auto conversion is seamless and works well

[ionic bison]

Quest avatars haven't had DynamicBones before, so no

[bright pewter]

Or just tell them to read the docs idk

[fading wave]

Pc?

[tender dome]

dynamic bones will autoconvert

[humble pulsar]

Some adjustments will be needed for avatars that currently use dynamic bones but it’s not a big deal, especially when you can auto convert

[modern flame]

There's auto conversion

[fading wave]

Alright

[ionic bison]

Keep in mind that you can test it right now, especially on PC the process is very easy

[ionic bison]

Glad to hear it! I've been surprised by the improvements to auto-conversion made over the course of Open Beta

[modern flame]

Bleh I should prep all my avatars for an official update rather than depending on auto I've just been lazy

[vocal hatch]

i also tested it out quick, and yeah it improved. some of my avatars broke completely first but now most of them are usable

[humble pulsar]

I was surprised as well, I thought that the auto conversion was gonna be sloppy and that you’d have to do most of the work again manually in Unity but I was pleasantly surprised to find out I was wrong. Sure, It won’t be 100% perfect and still requires tiny edits here and there but overall it’s excellent.

Please give yourself as well as everyone on the VRChat team a pat on the pack for an awesome job well done 😁

[viscid knoll]

yeah it didnt take me long to fix things up. sometimes i wish the curves in unity were multi-pointed instead of two points but XD

[ionic bison]

you can add points

[stable mantle]

Isn't that an up in the air thing? In general, a lot agree that the gap between performant and bad avatars is pretty deep and wide. That and they already have separate ranking systems for particles and physbones.

[viscid knoll]

i mean i dont know unity curves at all till now but XD i might have to look it up then

[ionic bison]

I think you just double-click on the curve and it'll add a point

[hazy linden]

It's on the docs

[wheat pelican]

lets goooo

[stable mantle]

Yeah they've had warnings like that for years.

[wheat pelican]

Release canidate

[near grove]

Lesssss goooo avatars dynamics in a day or two if nothing goes wrong

[stable mantle]

That and that message outright says "may". I.E. it's not even guaranteed it is just under consideration.

[wheat pelican]

Yuh

[frozen cliff]

Bro none of my avis have phys anymore 💀

[hazy linden]

I realize that it's been there for forever. That doesnt change the fact that it's still there and you really shouldn't be making very poor quest avatars

[tender dome]

#open-beta-discussion message

[swift prism]

20K tris isn’t even that strict of a limit anyways

[stable mantle]

Except the ranking system doesnt take into account a number of performance optimizations you can make with avatars and it has been acknowledged as such.

[swift prism]

if you know how to dissolve edge loops you can get below 15K

[stable mantle]

Stricter than you think.

[frozen cliff]

"limits"

[swift prism]

@stable mantle are you just used to high-poly bases?

[tender dome]

yes

[swift prism]

my PC avatar, with no additional optimizations applied, sits at 37K

[ionic bison]

PC used to be limited to 20k and it was fine

[stable mantle]

My base, without any add-ons or customizations, with optimization, sits between 20K & 30K.

[tender dome]

pain

[molten cobalt]

well it used to be 10,000

[stable mantle]

On Quest though that's

Just by tris alone.

[swift prism]

15K should be fairly easy to achieve by dissolving edge loops

[foggy granite]

I just use decimation in CATS plugin

[swift prism]

CATS decimation breaks topology with some things like the fingers and mouth

[quaint rain]

almost tiiime

[stable mantle]

My base doesn't have any edge loops? That is, modifiers tend to outright destroy the model or do nothing. Im still somewhat new to 3D, but the model is already fairly optimized.

[swift prism]

A, Alt+J, Alt-click

[frozen cliff]

Limits mean we have bones not they don't have bones at all 💀

[stable mantle]

That and it has interchangeable clothes and props, and still hits 30,100.

[swift prism]

@stable mantle what’s the base without any clothes and props then?

only 10K?

[foggy granite]

Eh thats not my main concern, id rather just get the Quest version up there without spending too much time on it

[hazy linden]

That would be very fine for pc, but that many polys for quest is a problem. Quest is a very limited platform

[tender dome]

Yes, but most avatars that have been uploaded on quest with physbones have gone over the "very poor" limits, so they get stripped out

[stable mantle]

Without clothes theres no torso but 16K, approx

[ionic bison]

Pretty sure most of the player models from overwatch fall between 20k and 40k, including weapons

[swift prism]

@tender dome made a tutorial on it

[molten cobalt]

yup

[viscid knoll]

lol xd my base i use made from someone else is like 80-90k XD i'll never be seen on quest XD lol

[ionic bison]

It's not about being possible, it's a question of effort

[stable mantle]

Pretty much half the avis in the Undernet Hub are VP.

[tardy mason]

Wait I have a question will beta be network compatible soon?

[swift prism]

many of the weapon models in The Walking Dead: Saints & Sinners average around 10K

[stable mantle]

The limit should be agreeably a bit aggressive.

[tender dome]

It will be pushed to live soon. (barring any major issues)

[stable mantle]

This is an RC. If theres no bugs itll be live.

[viscid knoll]

it'll be live soon (with luck)

[swift prism]

a lot of character models from PS2-era games average close to around 10K tris

[wraith island]

my pc base alone is already 60k lol

[cedar leaf]

When is the physbone coming ouy officially?

[molten cobalt]

if it like a fighting game

[foggy granite]

Hopefully tomorrow

[tender dome]

within a day or so, if no major bugs are found

[swift prism]

jak’s model from Jak 3 is just under 15K

most of the main character models in Metal Gear Solid 2 are less than 4,000 tris

[cedar leaf]

WAIT SRS

[stable mantle]

Like, the Quest 2 can handle 30K avatars fine. This isn't a PS2.

[tender dome]

read #open-beta-announcements

[tender dome]

It stacks up though

[urban salmon]

For the sake of everything working well I hope those bugs are found if they exist.

[ionic bison]

I remember the Quest developer guidelines were a maximum of 100k polycount and 100 drawcalls for the whole scene

[stable mantle]

It can yeah. In my model's case, only ever, maybe 20-ish K is visible at one time?

[swift prism]

it’s funny how the Quest and PS2 achieve similar levels of visual fidelity but have exact opposite strengths and weaknesses

[tender dome]

hidden meshes and whatnot still add up on VRAM

[foggy granite]

I reckon polygon limit could be bumped up an extra 5k

[stable mantle]

I thought that was only blendshapes that hid meshes.

[near grove]

How come they didn’t just strip it out before making the update/ announcement..? I think it would of been better then having everyone question why the avatars with physbones don’t work.

[stable mantle]

I was advised that for performance to take the draw call hit (separate meshes) in exchange for better performance (not constantly rendering unused meshes).

[tardy mason]

Thank youuu

[swift prism]

something worth noting: what about 4K texture atlases for models with just 1 material?

[tender dome]

whatre you thanking me for xD

[ionic bison]

4k on Quest?

[wraith island]

just go with a resolution where it doesnt look like minecraft anymore

[tender dome]

Dunno, to focus on more important aspects of the update if i were to guess

[stable mantle]

Like, NGL, to date, in use, my Quest 2 has less issue with poly count and more so:

• Bad world occlusion
• Voice Chat
• Large groups of people on-screen

[shrewd gust]

This

[swift prism]

4096x4096, but on just one material

[stable mantle]

In fact, Audio hits it the worst. CPU spikes any time large groups talk at once.

[fallow rock]

1 4k is 4 2k, that’s a lot of texture

[near grove]

One thing I don’t really understand is why would they strip it out if the avatars in beta worked perfectly fine?

[cedar leaf]

I have one more question. Will all avatars now have physbone or at the start will some only have it like vrchat official ones

[swift prism]

has the radius 0 bug been fixed

[foggy granite]

Yeah poly count isnt much of an issue, its largely just a high concentration of people in one spot that kills it

[stable mantle]

Because they worked "perfectly fine" alone.

[fallow rock]

To stop people abusing it

[tender dome]

because people could still abuse them, especially on weaker hardware like quest

[molten cobalt]

also the mirrors

[ionic bison]

A single 4k texture uncompressed is like 70MB in memory

[humble pulsar]

Yeah… please don’t use 4K textures on avatars. It hurts a lot 🥺

[swift prism]

when will vrchat get around to setting mirror resolution to 2048 instead of 4096

[ionic bison]

iirc the Quest 2 has 6GB of RAM for the OS as well as however much they give apps, and that includes VRAM

[stable mantle]

Mirrors are a mixed bag. I made an avi testing world where mirrors work fine at max FPS, and then theres worlds with nothing but mirror and it runs like chunky peanut butter. And visually they're no different in quality from a noticeable perspective.

[swift prism]

maybe a limit on the 4K texture stuff should be added

[modern tree]

a single avatar pedestal in VRC is like 100+MB in memory. pretty sure there's some overhead :v

[icy bramble]

It's already capped at 2048x2048 per eye. If you play with supersampling in SteamVR you can see that mirrors stop getting sharper once your SteamVR render resolution passes 2048x2048.

[molten cobalt]

that literally can't be the case because then like any Avatar world would like crash everybody

[ionic bison]

VRAM usage as a perf stat has come up before, it'll probably happen at some point

[molten cobalt]

yeah that would be a good idea

[frozen cliff]

Bro why don't yall add options such as allow phys bones limit so we have a choice or not just like PC users have a allow dynamic limit

[stable mantle]

Realistically, I think should be kept, but a "hard limit" above that should be set. No 100K+ avatars with mega-crunched 8K textures. Something reasonable for complex SDK3 avatars (allowing for multiple meshes and renderers), but that's a whole different conversation.

[molten cobalt]

because if you allow people to show very poor physics bones you melt the headset

[lyric ocean]

thry's got a avatar evaluator i use that tells you vram usage its nice

[modern tree]

my homeworld literally crashed me because of that after a minute or a couple of loading hundreds of pedestals

[tender dome]

Do you want to melt your headset?

[frozen cliff]

We've seen very poor avis for almost 2 months now

[swift prism]

what about application spacewarp

[stable mantle]

Quest doesn't fail gracefully. It won't melt your headset but it WILL cause your whole OS to crash and display nausea inducing corruption on the display, worst case scenario.

[molten cobalt]

would require Breaking All the content in the game to implement

[modest ivy]

requires new unity version unfortunately and also the new Universal Render Pipeline

[stable mantle]

Requires Unity 2020 or newer and the new Universal Render Pipeline.

[swift prism]

oh

[molten cobalt]

that would literally break all Legacy content in the game Universal Render Pipeline

[humble pulsar]

What is application spacewarp?

[remote tree]

Are they releasing the beta now?

[fallow rock]

Wait, what causes this? because I have 8k textures that run as 42.7MB
Not on quest just in general

[stable mantle]

Basically VRChat is stuck between a rock and a hard place. They don't even set the GPU/CPU level to max (last I checked it only goes to Level 2 with Quest, not Level 4, the max).

All the performance features require too new SDKs.

[lyric ocean]

thats compressed thay arent compressed on vram

[molten cobalt]

how much size they take up on your hard drive is a different thing from how much vram something uses

[timber tree]

is the beta out now??

[stable mantle]

Basically assumes what frame to render next. Kinda like interpolation but for VR, from what I understand. GPU/CPU draw calls and rendering load get halved.

If I understand correctly.

[fallow rock]

what's the best way to find how much vram something uses?

so I can look into my own projects like immediately

[viscid knoll]

makes me want to be evil and make a 2049x2049 texture 😛

[lyric ocean]

you use poiomi

[wraith island]

My avatar in total uses around 100 MB in VRAM

[pine dune]

wait so r they releasing avatar dynamics like tomorrow or is it gonna still be a beta

[patent hearth]

PhysBones is now part of the Minimum Displayed Performance Rank system, and will now be disabled for any avatars that exceed the set rank if they pass the limits for the Rank set
If an avatar exceeds the set Minimum Rank due to PhysBones, all PhysBones systems will be removed from that avatar

Can someone ELI5 this to me please? Are these for PC as well as quest or only quest, and how can I make sure that this doesn't happen to me

[molten cobalt]

it's release candidate so probably within the next several days

[tender dome]

The hard limit is only for quest

[molten cobalt]

basically on quest you cannot upload very poor physics bones

[ionic bison]

an 8k texture is 269MB uncompressed

[pine dune]

W

[patent hearth]

okay cool ty guys <3

[pine dune]

I been so ready for this fr

[ionic bison]

People aren't kidding when they say do NOT use 8k textures

[fallow rock]

ooof
Noted

[stable mantle]

If Im understanding though, a with or better physbones still work, yeah?

[swift prism]

is it better to have four 4K texture for materials or one 8K texture for one material

[tender dome]

i believe so

[icy bramble]

Are you using Crunch compression? Even with block compression like DXT5, BC7, ETC2, or ASTC an 8K texture will still be much larger than that in VRAM. Crunch compression doesn't affect VRAM only the bundle size. It'll still expand out to normal DXT5 or ETC2 which is 8bit/px instead of 32bit/px.

[ionic bison]

I believe so but I'm not 100%

[wraith mist]

If quest doesn’t have phys bones anymore then why don’t they make the beta only for pcvr players?

[stable mantle]

Oh good so it's not like particles.

Presumably

[molten cobalt]

that's identical amounts of vrm usage

[tender dome]

Quest does still have physbones, there are just hard limits now #open-beta-discussion message

[stable mantle]

ELI5: It has physbones, they just had to limit them on Quest for performance.

[wraith mist]

People I know on rn are saying it’s basically not there for any avatars they have

[molten cobalt]

otherwise the headset would crash if there is no limit

[stable mantle]

Because the avatars go over the new limits.

[tender dome]

because they were uploaded past very poor limits

[molten cobalt]

that's because all their avatars were uploaded before the limit was put in

[hard kayak]

i think that's a good move, so that we won't see the same thing as on pc where an avatar has two billion dynamic bones

[wraith mist]

So the creators are gonna have to redo all of it-

[molten cobalt]

yes

[tender dome]

depends

[molten cobalt]

well that's their own fault for going past the poor limit for their Quest avatars

[tender dome]

*very poor

[urban salmon]

I mean it’s beta so changes should be expected.

[wraith mist]

Was there a limit stated prior?

[hybrid lion]

the minimum displayed perf rank on quest is vpoor by default
Dont they mean medium?

[stable mantle]

TBF lumping everything under the same ranking system is confusing. PhysBones have a separate ranking system, so the SDK UX could use some work.

[near grove]

EE

[stable mantle]

Maybe they mean for PhysBones?

[fallow rock]

Nah that was without Crunch. I guess I just don't know what number I should be looking for in unity

[molten cobalt]

nope before this update they let you upload very poor physics Bones on Quest but they would still be aware but for this update they were uploading very poor content

[wraith mist]

So that’s on the developers not the avi creators

[molten cobalt]

well that's the Avatar creators fault for uploading very poor Quest avatars

[wraith mist]

Don’t blame the people who weren’t given a limit in the first place

[wraith mist]

Everyone uploads very poor quest avis with no significant issues

[tender dome]

why would it be on the devs if people are making unoptimized content

[hybrid lion]

Ah well

[tender dome]

it's a beta, you should assume things can change at any moment

[molten cobalt]

like the documentation also mentions future plans to remove very poor altogether so yes that is your own if you're uploading a very poor Avatar

[wraith mist]

Why would the devs let there be unoptimized content of its such a problem

[stable mantle]

GOOMBS is making a fair point. The SDK and ranking system as a whole don't give very good feedback, and penalize more creative SDK3 avatars. Though Im like a broken record at this point.

[molten cobalt]

well they're doing something about that now by putting in the hard limit for physics bones

[stable mantle]

A **YO this is worse than ** kinda warning would be good.

[wraith mist]

I mean on live as well

[frozen cliff]

"Now"

[wraith mist]

Thank you candy

[frozen cliff]

Yurp

[stable mantle]

Because you can have performant and optimized avatars. The ranking system is not infallible. It's meant to curb bad developer practices and protect weaker hardware.

[tender dome]

https://sippbox.life-is-pa.in/5u2ZxnI8C

[stable mantle]

So it's going to be heavy handed by design.

[tender dome]

tldr it's heavily discouraged

[stable mantle]

That will be the day I stop playing VRChat TBH.

[frozen cliff]

-$-

[wraith mist]

There should be a way to reject the upload of very poor in the first place

[frozen cliff]

They already said in the update log there gonna start doing that

[stable mantle]

Realistically, no.

[tender dome]

for physbones, not anything else

[stable mantle]

Then why have the rank at all.

[wraith mist]

Why make it possible

[frozen cliff]

Exactly

[stable mantle]

There should be something worse than though.

[wraith mist]

Why?

[tender dome]

[amber prairie]

Very Poor Plus Ultra

[stable mantle]

Like a hard "Do not pass go do not collect $200" point.

[muted brook]

there should be a benchmark for the avi tbh to actually give it a safety rating

[swift prism]

lmao

[stable mantle]

A limit that prevents even worse avatars to be uploaded.

[muted brook]

there was that. but people just modified the sdk lmao

[stable mantle]

Quest & Quest 2 ranks should also be fully separated.

[ionic bison]

This is quite a bit off topic, but understandable due to the changes

[stable mantle]

Then whats to stop the same with physbones.

[muted brook]

idk

[tender dome]

quest 1 vrc is more likely to be just be discontinued

[ionic bison]

You want a rank beyond VP, but the gap here is that VP is the beyond

[stable mantle]

Like, I like how PhysBones are being handled. They're their own ranking, essentially.

[stable mantle]

On PC, yes.

On Quest 2, not so much.

[ionic bison]

That's not what I said

[frozen cliff]

Oop that's gonna make y'all lose allot of players ......and money

[stable mantle]

Then I misunderstand what you mean.

[tender dome]

just a guess, i don't work here

[molten cobalt]

most of the quest users are on Quest 2

[tender dome]

^

[subtle wharf]

i'm not :(

[timber jewel]

There aren't many Quest 1 players tbh

[urban salmon]

It’s normal for older devices to slowly fade out. If people enjoy something they’re bound to find a way to continue.

[subtle wharf]

i'm a quest 1 player- sadly

[severe citrus]

I'll be very upset if they remove physbones to vp avatars on quest because I spent hours putting physbones on my avatar for quest and it's vp

[subtle wharf]

some worlds i can't even join or be in without crashing

[frozen cliff]

That's like saying killing a small state won't effect a country

[tender dome]

quest 1 vrc at this point stuggles in worlds with more than a dozen people. I have a feeling it will eventually go the way of horizon worlds

[ionic bison]

The VP rank is where the determination has already been set for "too much", there's no need for an extra rank. The root of the issue is that Show Avatar can bypass that and allow for infinitely bad avatars. If you want to argue to adjust the limits for VP then sure, but the warning that Sippbox keeps posting is there for good reason.

[stable mantle]

I get that on Quest 2 too sometimes. It relies on worlds being optimized and having baked or probed lighting, occlusion, etc.

Bad worlds will kill a headset.

[wraith island]

Quest 1 couldn't handle 10+ players properly even in 2020

[molten cobalt]

and I can think of some maps that outright crash The Quest 1

[ionic bison]

and just to chill the conspiring a bit, there aren't any plans to stop providing VRChat for Quest 1

[peak charm]

Why have the Physbones disable?!!?

[severe citrus]

I refuse to reduce the polygons on my vroid avatar just for it to have dynamic bones on quest because all it will do is make it look awful

[stable mantle]

Everytime I argue to increase VP limits I'm told by many they're that way "for a reason". The "hard limit" past VP (that is "you cannot upload this") is basically me compromising. "OK, let VP avis be uploaded, but set a hard limit on by how much".

[peak charm]

I had so many nice avatars that are good.

[tender dome]

https://sippbox.life-is-pa.in/5u30PHfhg

[swift prism]

dissolve your edge loops on the body

reduce hair smoothness

[near grove]

Limited Dissolve exists

[swift prism]

don’t forget shapekeys

dissolve edge loops on the face

[muted brook]

most of my polys are in the hair and face because i use face tracking

[hard pond]

Just quick question,
I heard as World SDK is pending while make it able to touch PhysBone from U# at time of release IIRC, but seems not included in World SDK at this time.
What's the pro publishing world SDK this time?

[muted brook]

I cant really get my avi past 60k polys

[peak charm]

You should add the old physbones back they were better no physbones work.

[severe citrus]

Edge loops? Like the edges?

[near grove]

Feels like their screwing over quest in a way.

[frozen cliff]

Not anymoreeeee

[peak charm]

In a sense.

[swift prism]

@severe citrus a, alt-j, alt-click

[stable mantle]

3D modeling modifiers like dissolves and decimation only do so much. They're not magic markers. Some models just can't be realistically simplified without compromises.

[stable mantle]

Quest didn't have the old bones.

And it has the same exact physbone system, just a hard cap.

[molten cobalt]

and the old bones would melt a quest

[peak charm]

No before the update my physbones worked fine!

Now they done.

[swift prism]

you gotta do it MANUALLY

[molten cobalt]

you just have too many physbones

[ionic bison]

We didn't provide world SDKs for the regular Open Beta updates because nothing was changed. Since this is an RC (and for the SPS-I changes) we built one to make sure that it stays updated even if not much has changed.

[urban salmon]

The new limit removes them if you pass it.

[stable mantle]

Not everyone is skilled at 3D modeling software.

[wraith island]

My Quest avatars will forever stay . But eh except the physbones stuff they will never get any updates

[near grove]

Actually, good time to ask; Will IK-Beta be merged with AVDyn?

[swift prism]

sippbox managed to explain it in less than a minute

[peak charm]

Well I have all my avatars that were physbones which of (Worked fine by the way!)

[stable mantle]

Well good for them.

[peak charm]

And now it’s bad I can’t see the physbones NOTHING!

[near grove]

This pisses me off, it legit feels like quest is being screwed over. Legit

[peak charm]

Fr

Same

[stable mantle]

Avatars need updated.

The Physbone limits make sense.

[tender dome]

Physbones can still be abused, especially on weaker hardware like the quest. Limits were needed.

[molten cobalt]

well this is inherently just something that folks will have to get the skills for or people to write tools to automate

[swift prism]

people be malding cause they don’t know how to optimize

we should write a song about optimizing avatars

[urban salmon]

Haha

[humble pulsar]

No, it wouldn’t

[peak charm]

Only really tiny avatars work with physbones Wtf.

[humble pulsar]

Hence why limits stop that from happening

[near grove]

That won't load, because the quest has a hardlimit of physbones.

For probably exactly that reason

[urban salmon]

^

[stable mantle]

Like, the physbones limits make sense, and I hope going forward, additional features take after it. Instead of killing just kill feature subsets that are .

[near grove]

Yeah cause that "fits the limits" tbh they could make it a bit bigger, i get the limits but seem way to damn low.

[tender dome]

You're probably using an avatar that is below the physbone limit

[peak charm]

Below?!!?

What?

[tender dome]

https://sippbox.life-is-pa.in/5u32jGuEV

[near grove]

Legit, feels like quest is always being screwed over.

[humble pulsar]

I think people misunderstood my point, I was explaining the fact that if there were no limits on quest then someone could just lag everyone.

[ionic bison]

The limits are in some cases over double what would put a PC avatar with dynbones into Poor rank, and that's for Quest

[peak charm]

Ever since the update nothing works for physbones y’all need another update for it to work.

[swift prism]

pin

[wraith island]

If vram gets into performance ranking i probably will be permanently on pc. Currently I'm that anyways but i could get lower by removing features

[tender dome]

nobody reads pins

[near grove]

I do ;)

[stable mantle]

So do I

[tender dome]

They work, just almost every quest avatar with physbones go over the new limit

[molten cobalt]

I'll be fine as I was just medium ranked on quest

[stable mantle]

ELI5: Most avatars just took the PC bones and put them on a Quest avatar. No one optimized their models for Quest, so limits were instated.

[peak charm]

So y’all make it so it’s like the live version?.. not even open beta anymore just like old avatars nothing on them. Like the old version Wtf.

[molten cobalt]

but then again my avatar doesn't have lots of long hair

[tender dome]

sigh

[near grove]

Hey Aev, any news on what's going to happen to the IK-Beta? Branch merge with Avdyn or?

[stable mantle]

They already do that with Particle Effects.

[molten cobalt]

yes that's a good summary of it

[humble pulsar]

It was expected sippbox let’s be honest xD

[upper mountain]

I hear you.

No one wants to listen, they just wanna complain.

[humble pulsar]

Indeed

[tender dome]

it do be like that

[shrewd gust]

There there sipp

[ionic bison]

Probably a question better sent to #ik-2

[peak charm]

Open beta was the first I had physics and now it’s gone..

[near grove]

Yeah, true, wasnt sure which one would fit better

[molten cobalt]

and yeah it's their fault for uploading very poor physics bone avatars in the first place

[humble pulsar]

I think everyone needs a hug

[upper mountain]

The old "not my job" shtick.

[stable mantle]

That's the point of a beta. Test new features, instate limits if necessary.

[stable mantle]

You're not wrong.

[tender dome]

They aren't gone. They just have hard limits

[urban salmon]

It’s still there. The creators or you just have to change the amount of phys bones on the avatars.