official vrchat ToS
#vrchat-general-2
granite coral
section 5: Vrchat sdk licence
then somewhere else it says is against it
so make up your mind first
cunning anchor
@granite coral It doesn't state "source code" in my url
next glade
nobody in this chat knows anything about the game 😦
dusk tinsel
^
cunning anchor
Ah, yah I overread that line
Another thing is, which probably everybody knows, a ToS and EULA isn't law-binding.,
vocal shard
Oh hey, it's an other "one of those"
floral aspen
legality isn't the issue here. If you violate it you're subject to be banned, no questions asked
cunning anchor
@floral aspen Yeap, but people tend to talk about a ToS/EULA as a lawbounded thing.
cunning anchor
@granite coral God damn, you'rr right.
vocal shard
You are using a provided service (VRChat). You must obey the rules that said service has to keep using the service. There's no working around that. Obey.
cunning anchor
If you read that ToS block 5, it does not say not allowed.
It just states that, without any negative impact on it o_O
ruby needle
https://vrchat.com/community Q. Modification of VRChat App or SDK
is actually rather clear 
cunning anchor
It grants you limited/blahblah, and then that (b) part does not point out it is "not" allowed. Maybe a typo ?
@ruby needle True, it is more clearer there yes.
granite coral
oh, there's where is said that you cant
cunning anchor
But people are pointed to the EULA/ToS all the time.
So it's a pretty awkward situation there.
floral aspen
the (b) part is specifying that you can reproduce/modify any sample software included in the SDK, not the SDK itself
granite coral
is also rather clear that the official ToS says that you're allowed @ruby needle
cunning anchor
Well, as I look at it, the block 5 part overrides the first part.
With that B line.
ruby needle
point 9. bypass any security or other features of the Service designed to control how the Service is used, harvest, or mine User Content from the Service, or otherwise access or use the Service in a manner inconsistent with individual human usage;
rocky blaze
so am in meant to see all the different name tag addons when people join?
cunning anchor
It talks about source code.
ruby needle
limits are definitely features to control how the service is used
floral aspen
"You will not: (iii) modify any of the SDK Object Code included with the SDK"
rocky blaze
there is a "vip" tag and an AFK one
vocal shard
"In addition, VRChat may in its sole discretion terminate your user account on the Service or suspend or terminate your access to the Service at any time for any reason or no reason, with or without notice.". So whatever rules we are debating about, at the end of the day, VRChat can ban you if they want, even if it doesn't look fair on your side.
cunning anchor
Transfer, disclose and distribute != modifying.
vocal shard
So a word of advice: Use common sense, obey the rules and everything will be just fine.
dusk tinsel
just /unban 4head ezpz
cunning anchor
Or "rules"
cunning anchor
Script kiddies are a thorn in the eyes of real hackers too anyway...
vocal shard
I hope they know what happened to those who were very stubborn at keeping breaking rules. It... wasn't pretty. muhahah.
granite coral
ah i give up
vocal shard
@cunning anchor give me your lunch money 
cunning anchor
I loved it last time on Rainbow Six Siege, when my chat screen was spamming with bans of players.
@vocal shard I'm in debt atm.
xD
vocal shard
I ll let it pass this time
cunning anchor
\o/
cunning anchor
My mastercard was abused last week.
vocal shard
Also gold bars since im swiss
cunning anchor
Some @#$% bought a laptop with my money..
floral aspen
oof
vocal shard
Big oof
vocal shard
At least they probably cleared the debt cause it wasn't you that ordered it right ?
cunning anchor
Yah, it's still on "reserved" status.
vocal shard
Most banks have some coverage in case of that
cunning anchor
HP needs to cancel the order..
But they obviously are too lazy to cancel it..
Sigh...
Yah, I just hope HP listens to the bank and cancel it.
vocal shard
Well to the point of view of HP, they just made a sale and it would be a loss to cancel the order.
cunning anchor
Yah true, but then the bank will nag the hell out of mastercard.
And they will reprimand HP for not taking proper action.
So it's a vicious circle 😉
rocky blaze
@vocal shard am in a friends of guests session and when my friends join it shows all the tags before they load in properly
glad rose
a lot of lawyers in general today
vocal shard
@rocky blaze Should be normal behavior. Do you see loading bars under their names ?
Its a bug
vocal shard
It will be fixed when they parch the modded client
cunning anchor
Or block all avatars in config ?
vocal shard
Elen, they still have the tags after they load in?
modest halo
i wonder what the vip tag is supposed to be for I saw one stuck in the ground once 🤔
rocky blaze
no svelsien
vocal shard
Then dont worry about it
floral aspen
might be a tag that was made earlier in development but was never used
compact river
only true vips know what the vip tag is for hehe
rocky blaze
its the initial connecting before they appear as a blue person then avatar
modest halo
🤔
languid beacon
i just bought a cheap headset, will it work with VRChat?
vocal shard
@stuck elm bullshit
Worst they can do is kick you and log you out
Which is fixed by restarting the fame.and login again
languid beacon
it's just a really simple one but it's good
polar bone
@languid beacon is it one that you put your phone in?
small wing
@vocal shard you do realize that never claimed those statements in the screenshot, right?
vocal shard
@stuck elm Please do not post the same message across multiple channels.
@small wing fight me nerd
ruby needle
Advert sniping my warning message 
vocal shard
I call it team-work
small wing
@vocal shard where @ boi
ruby needle
👍
vocal shard
languid beacon
I think it might work with phones i'm not sure it was only $15
polar bone
It wont work
languid beacon
it's called uuh
polar bone
Anything that cheap surely won't work with steamvr
small wing
@languid beacon you can use phone vr for vrchat with a 3rd party plugin
ruby needle
oh... good
small wing
lmao
polar bone
Oh fuck I'm an idiot
small wing
we just got trolled bois
odd crown
Anything that works on your pc will work in vrchat
polar bone
I thought you meant VR headset
small wing
gg
timber spade
test
tropic spoke
wrong
vocal shard
yo tuppers listening to some tunes rn
polar bone
He is dang
tropic spoke
them dev tunes to fix the client
vocal shard
nah listen along
ruby needle
Tupper is not a dev tho
tropic spoke
shutup
ruby needle
Tupper is a community manager
tropic spoke
i actually think tupper blocked me because he joined a world i was in
vocal shard
Tupper is dev
i aint meet him i need too thou
Only dev
ima hug him
Tupper fix everything
left latch
Tupper announces VRChat 2
vocal shard
Powered by Unreal Engine 4
ima hug tupper if i meet him thou ngl
Same time as despacito 2
coral pebble
so, I've heard of problems with hackers, them being in publics, and possibly being able to get in places they shouldn't. How true are these things I've been hearing?
tropic spoke
it can crash you
vocal shard
@coral pebble as true as in #announcements
vocal shard
Worst they can do is kick you and log you out of your account
Which is annoying cuz u need to login again
tropic spoke
just hide in non-public worlds
coral pebble
okay
vocal shard
@tropic spoke it cant do that
tropic spoke
then why did i crash
vocal shard
Yes it can crash you
vocal shard
Particle gun
coral pebble
just wanted to make sure
left latch
That's a great idea, stay near the entrance of a popular world, wait for one to come then crash them
jk
coral pebble
and I should be okay if I stay out of publics, right?
tropic spoke
yeah, the worst they can do is just the regular + log outs
for the people thinking it can fry your cpu with overclocking:
VRChat is NOT ran with administrator NOR is a low level program. It CANNOT overclock your hardware
vocal shard
ye so if you encounter it report them etc or just get out
tropic spoke
the best part is they dont even make convincing moderation notices
oh no tupper has stopped listening to music death incoming
left latch
the fake moderation notices are made for attention, not to convince people that they're real
tropic spoke
who you gunna call when you need pizza there
small wing
lmao
tropic spoke
who you gunna call when friends are there
small wing
GHOST
left latch
the bad boys
small wing
BUSTERS
tropic spoke
thats the most ambitious cross over ever
small wing
yes
tropic spoke
does anyone know if tupper blocks mutes
tropic spoke
idk
left latch
you got blocked for being a mute huh?
tropic spoke
idk if i got blocked
left latch
Looks like you went straight to... The Mute List
tropic spoke
lol
tropic spoke
if you hurt my frames i just block all avatars
small wing
people get close to me all the time like right up in my face
my left eye is dilated so it hurts
left latch
oof
tropic spoke
foo
left latch
foo fighters
small wing
so i tell them to not do that and if they dont listen or get mad i block
left latch
i block people if they're annoying
tropic spoke
step 1: make alt
step 2: block alt
tropic spoke
step 4: use a client because your triggered
small wing
step 5 = doxx myself and leak all my info but then realize i just doxxed myself and thats abit silly
tropic spoke
step 6: complain to tupper
small wing
step 7: tupper calls the police because i sound like a psycho
languid beacon
left latch
step 8: T-pose
tropic spoke
HES A COMMUNITY MANAGER
REEEEEEE
languid beacon
They should change his nametag to not say Dev then lol
tropic spoke
also is vr pill a dev
left latch
vocal shard
Tupper doesnt wven use his dev tag
small wing
can i get a tag that says "ass"? Thanks.
vocal shard
@tropic spoke vrpill is the final boss of vrchat
tropic spoke
do they play the game
left latch
You don't need one, Roll.
tropic spoke
thats my nickname how did you know
small wing
us asses gotta stick together
left latch
Amazing! the same combination as my luggage!
vocal shard
Yes they play
languid beacon
left latch
5/7
languid beacon
picture is perfect, already girls in dresses in front of a mirror
vocal shard
@languid beacon add a knuckles under the dresses
left latch
no
tropic spoke
i wil
small wing
Does anyone know how much ram usage is normal for vrchat?
cause i think im getting a leak
tropic spoke
512 gigs* (i said 16gigs)
small wing
really?
tropic spoke
idk
vocal shard
Not any different from usual
small wing
What is the usual
vocal shard
Getting crashed i guess
left latch
Nah, he's usually worse than this
small wing
i just want an actual answer
tropic spoke
do you want me to boot it up
left latch
boot what up
tropic spoke
vrchat
left latch
why
tropic spoke
to find ram usage
small wing
I mean ive been playing since 2016 so uhhh
left latch
eh i can do it
tropic spoke
ive been playing since January 2018
tropic spoke
https://imgur.com/a/CgeGA8i fixed 100
indigo fern
just use some flex tape
upbeat dust
Soo.... does blocking avatars still help or is this game gonna die now? :l
fast bronze
game wont die if you dont let it
upbeat dust
It is gonna die if these hacker losers never gets stopped though...
median basalt
Blocking avatars won't help, and they're probably working on fixing the exploit
upbeat dust
mfw hacker kiddies knows this game better than the devs o.o
ruby needle
the "kiddies" are not the one writing the clients.
upbeat dust
well, who knows. I can't imagine a fully grown human being dedicating his life to wreck this game for no particular reason.
Guess I'm gonna have to record with OBS everytime I play from now on ...
unless I get hack banned -_-
I mean, tupper did say only actual official moderators can ban you but I'm too scared to trust that right now
vocal shard
@upbeat dust The "hackers" cannot ban you. It looks like you are banned, but it's just a message. Restart the client and everything is fine.
upbeat dust
Until those hackers figure out how to really ban you. Something tells me that's a possibility for 'some' reason
vocal shard
That would require accessing the databases themselves, which requires a totally different skillset. And we are talking... Amazon servers. Good luck hacking that. If you do, you make the news.
fast bronze
if you do you get rekt XD amazon would destroy someone hacking their systems
upbeat dust
Well, I hope you're right, teal. Still, not being able to stop them by blocking avatars anymore is ruining my mood
ruby needle
the problem is that they basically trick you client into thinking that they are moderators
so it treats em like that
but only on your local client
fast bronze
anyway stop the worry routine and play the game, that attitude is what people distributing the "hacks " want
ruby needle
thats why it accepts the ban / kick messages
but a restart fixes it
because nothing has been written to the database
as it was not legitimate
they just trick your local client into thinking it was
upbeat dust
oi, don't blame me. I'm supposed to be worried if this sort of thing happens.
fast bronze
not blaming you, just dont let the script kiddies that likely got banned and want revenge get their way
vocal shard
Basically, don't let 4chan win
polar bone
And also misinformed about what they can do is being spread, which is what they want
ruby needle
^
scareing people to not even start playing is another tactic
and if you do that they win
upbeat dust
And what about blocking the hacker in the room? If I find him, that is.
polar bone
They want us to think they can actually ban us, and by the announcements in some of the discords I've been in, people actually think that
upbeat dust
Does THAT work?
polar bone
Apparently not
ruby needle
@upbeat dust due to em tricking your client into thinking they are moderators, unfortunately not
polar bone
Also fpaul are you a mod
upbeat dust
Well then, If I do manage to find a hacker, and try to block him and I fail - let's just hope I'm recording with obs
ruby needle
😄
upbeat dust
-evil laugh-
ruby needle
i take that as a compliment 
fast bronze
lmao
polar bone
Can't they change their display name?
polar bone
I know that a certain modded client let's you do that
ruby needle
they can spoof your client that they are mods, so i'd guess they can also spoof names 
fast bronze
thats what they seem to use to get in to private instances
upbeat dust
-_- this is getting worse and worse by the second
fast bronze
i had to kick a dear friend yesterday from my server for discussing use of api manipulation
idk if they can
vocal shard
it used to be a thing
Simple solution: Make servers accept only the official client. Like... make it check checksum or something.
fast bronze
heard some people saying it was happening again
vocal shard
then they manage to stop it
fast bronze
it would be simpler than that teal
polar bone
If it were that simple it would probably already be done then, right?
fast bronze
memory injection monitoring so thats not allowed and client version file system checks like a watchdog client
its already dont in other games
vocal shard
Basically: Steam VAC.
fast bronze
essentially
but iirc that still doesnt watch for external memory access
basically if it detects anything outside the game itsself accessing the memory it closes the session and collapses the connection
thats what is needed for that end
client checks can be run by simple fast software
checking with the internet against code referances
ruby needle
in current times there is more then enogh legit thigns accessing it tho
antivirus programs, overlays, discord
ruby needle
vocal shard
Hopefully they won't use Denuvo.
fast bronze
injection through indirects
ruby needle
Denuvo with the single core performance
fast bronze
thats a copy protection
ruby needle
that sounds like hell
fast bronze
however its not hard to program algorithims (fuck spelling) that look for specific edits or evidence of edits
itd be cool if they did tie it to steam vac tho
vocal shard
heck they don't even need to write their own watchdog system. They could just use stuff some mmorpgs use.
fast bronze
XD all them getting their steam accounts banned too XD
teal they likely have to as they cant pay for licencing
grand zealot
Lol literally someone just joined with like 5 different tags. That's enough of this game for me today.
ruby needle
@vocal shard you need to be a bit more carefull when things are user content based but watchdogs are definitely doable
vocal shard
@fast bronze Welp... there goes the big problem. They need cash. And more devs.
fast bronze
it would also protect against things like a certain ninja...
vocal shard
I feel like the VRChat team is just overrun by the size of their project.
true sky
cant have a problem if you made sure server checks everything 
fast bronze
then they have to pull themselves away from it to see if theres any validity
server needs to know what to check and what to look for
miles and miles of code m8
feel free to script it up for them
im surprised with the people complaining about crashes they didnt make a bat that opened the crashlog location with the error when you crash so you can find it with no effort
vocal shard
Totalitarian solution: Case by case verification of avatars. Or restrict upload even more, like only to long term users with no report on their name.
fast bronze
avatars arent the issue
granite coral
client checks are eighter easily avoidable or too intrusive for the type of game we're in. The best solution would be control most things possible serverside so even if someone modifies his client he can't really do anything malicious
median basalt
Yeah, avatars aren't the issue in this case
It's not like someone found an exploit on avatars. Not this time at least.
That has happened though
granite coral
also limiting avatars even more in a platform based on making custom avatars and worlds doesn't sound like a smart idea
median basalt
@granite coral not sure if the devs see it that way
fast bronze
on that note cibbi they could go that route but then id say that the client requests should be compared to the dev teams normal access routes and systems so as to verify if the calls are real and form a real source
median basalt
The vision for the devs doesn't seem to concern avatar making too much
vocal shard
Well that's the consequence of people abusing of the freedom. Remove freedom.
median basalt
The devs are pouring a lot of love into world dev tools
granite coral
and that discourages me honestly
median basalt
Yeah, same
Ever since I joined, we gained desktop gestures but lost cameras
And that's all that happened
granite coral
since avatars are something you wear all the time
meanwhile worlds are what they are, places you visit sometimes
fast bronze
but theres no shortage of avatars
median basalt
We also got chairs temporarily, which will be nice to get back but we'll have to see in which ways they are limited
ruby needle
i mean, there is real cameras now
median basalt
If we can have custom animators on avatar chairs but not our avatars I'm gonna be laughing
granite coral
but you end up being in the same 3-4 worlds most of the times
ruby needle
and cameras still work for friends dont they
median basalt
Technically yes
But it still sucks since a lot of cool shaders needed cameras
A friend of mine had a working minimap of the area
Another friend of mine had a playable Super Mario Bros
fast bronze
people i met, people i tought, even people i made things for have benifitted in the past few months and even ngone as far as surpass my creativity and are now making things all their own
granite coral
they work, but you have to do the trick to make them work on friends, and even then, what's the point if random people cant see it
fast bronze
i dont see a downslope i see a constant
median basalt
I don't understand why they limited cameras to friends, but still require us to use that weird workaround to show them to friends
ruby needle
they still dont really want em i guess?
fast bronze
what workaround?
granite coral
i guess they just placed a fix on top of the broken fix and called it a day
ruby needle
the reason to fight against em is performance, usage of cameras started to explode
fast bronze
^
granite coral
i mean, would have been better to make a toggle
fast bronze
still even though i agree i have to say they could have added a default off toggle for them
median basalt
If they cared about performance we would have material limits
granite coral
so people can actually decide if they wanted that or not
fast bronze
or even bring back the toggle for materials
median basalt
People can still lag you out if they want to, cameras or not
fast bronze
there are so many ways
median basalt
Lmao
opaque remnant
i'd welcome a material limit now
fast bronze
XD
median basalt
I don't think that's possible with a quad
fast bronze
well
granite coral
you have an avatar that lags people
fast bronze
you can tess the fuck out of a quad
median basalt
You could do it with 9999 quads though, that would still be within the SDK limits
ruby needle
now a material limit can be done
opaque remnant
i've brought all my avatars below 5 materials using the material combiner addon for blender
granite coral
@median basalt it is
ruby needle
the new material combinder addon is 
median basalt
A quad has two tris. I think a tri can only have one material at a time
granite coral
i have that as an avatar when i have to explain that is the material count that matters
fast bronze
tessilation is a bitch XD
ruby needle
everyone should use it https://vrcat.club/threads/material-combiner-blender-addon-1-1-4.2255/
soo good
granite coral
in unity a tri can have as many materials ayou want, it will just overlay one on top of another
odd blaze
Redid 67 avatars yesterday to 1-3 materials each with that shotariya atlasing , so yeh it was that easy
median basalt
Oh, okay
fast bronze
anyone know how to write a shadr that renders a quad at verts, sort of like halo rendering in blender XD
median basalt
And yeah, material combiner is great. I heard it's already integrated into the next Cats version
granite coral
is actually a cool thing when you want an effect shader on top of something
indigo fern
Material combiner
Nutt 💦 💦 💦
granite coral
there's an atlasing option in cats since ever
ruby needle
manual atlas ofc still beats it
granite coral
^
odd blaze
Cats one is horrible really
ruby needle
the problem with cats current one is its unwrapping
opaque remnant
but people won't actually do atlasing if they are forced into doing it manually
ruby needle
thats less cats fault but the thing they use
median basalt
Auto atlasing has been unusably bad for me
granite coral
ye, but i mean, is there for lazy people
indigo fern
Cats current auto atlas is poopoo for anything cool
median basalt
@opaque remnant if we had material limits people would atlas
ruby needle
the material combinter is not as effective
median basalt
The auto atlas is literally unusable in my case
sleek pecan
the problem with material limits is shaders
granite coral
if you want something cool you use your time into manually atlasing
sleek pecan
can only have one shader per material
granite coral
is not that hard
ruby needle
@sleek pecan sure
median basalt
That's not a "problem"
ruby needle
thats why the limit should be like 10
median basalt
Yeah
ruby needle
still plenty
granite coral
and blender already has tools to help you with that
ruby needle
yes
median basalt
You're not gonna tell me you need more than 10 different shaders
sleek pecan
thats kinda high
ruby needle
that already is quite a few
ruby needle
i would call 10 the best realistic limit
median basalt
If I could set a limit it would be 5, but that's not realistic.
sleek pecan
does VRchat support leap motion?
ruby needle
we all know how the poly thing works out
sleek pecan
would be cool for hand gestures
indigo fern
Yeah, but imagine this, there are people with 30+ materials, 10 would be a big improvement
sleek pecan
yeah
granite coral
well, you might need more than 10 materials, if you like have 11 different weapons, but not every weapon is on at the same time
indigo fern
If it's not active it doesn't count anyway
vocal shard
Anyway material restriction and increase in poly limit is still the most requested feature on the canny that is not yet accepted.
ruby needle
i would exclude props or have them their own limit to not limit creativity as it is now
granite coral
i wouldn't make the material a real restriction, but a big ass warning instead
median basalt
A limit would be good
sleek pecan
nobody pays attention to the warningss
median basalt
And a warning at 5 materials
true sky
too many draw calls on an avatar
indigo fern
No one reads the warnings, cmon
ruby needle
if its jsut a suggestion no one cares
indigo fern
They can't even read that they need to play the game more to get avatar privileges
granite coral
if is just a suggestion no one cares cause the suggestions so far don't really suggest anything usefull
sleek pecan
its fingers are spiky and I think i'm going to do the animator trick to get a higher polycount
assuming it works
ruby burrow
What do you think of the idea, of worlds being able to set their own optimisation standards for avatars? Eg, 10 materials would be the default limit for all regular worlds, but creators could specify high performance only worlds, where you need to use higher performance avatars to enter.
tidal aspen
how do u decimate materials
sleek pecan
@ruby burrow yeah no
ruby burrow
It would help allow for specialised high population worlds.
sleek pecan
n o
I am not going to make a special version of my avatar because I want to go on worlds with more than 5 people on
ruby burrow
Then we'll never see 100+ user worlds.
median basalt
@ruby burrow I was thinking of that earlier, I think it would be nice but ultimately pointless
granite coral
10 materials limit is actually a big limitation if you consider that a single particle system can use 2 materials by it's own, and multiple particle systems are a common thing, and if you limit only by active materials then we're at the point where people set things off by default and then turn them on on runtime with an animation
median basalt
Even if you have literally no avatar, 100 people is too many for the game's networking and IK to handle
vocal shard
100 avatars at the same time on VRChat ? I hope they are all a single triangle with 1 material on it. lol
indigo fern
100 cube players would lag the instance
sleek pecan
they ment 100 on one world, not one instance
like the 300 people the pug has constantly
median basalt
Having a proper material limit in the SDK sets an example and helps educate people, even if some people will bypass it.
ruby needle
@vocal shard the voice, ik and stuff is actually the worst thing
indigo fern
That's even worse
ruby burrow
No, I mean one instance with massive numbers of people.
sleek pecan
that cant happen
sleek pecan
basicly
vocal shard
Let's not forget: This thing runs on an old Unity version that is completely unoptimized for modern multicore systems.
ruby needle
@median basalt i personally would include a 10 cap in the client just rendering all other material white
tidal aspen
you can be in an instance with 40 people on all non humanoids and it would still lag
ruby needle
to force players to care
ruby burrow
But the points about the network limitations probably do make it a non option.
ruby needle
if possible
sleek pecan
would be supprised if the game doesn't die before they bother upgrading to 2017 or 2018
median basalt
Yep
granite coral
then again, 10 weapons on an avatar that aren't on at the same time, that's over the limit, but it doesn't cause lag, if you consider only active materials it can bypassed easily
indigo fern
It's not over the limit because inactive objects are counted anyway
ruby burrow
The pessimism is unfortunate. ._.
tidal aspen
if it's inactive it won't affect performance anyways
indigo fern
Some people have props way over 20k poly's already
granite coral
and having a limitation on runtime will cause the backslash of the initial particle limiter
vocal shard
Do it the Second Life way: Client side graphics slider that allows hiding avatars that are too heavy to render.
granite coral
^
dry marsh
i have no idea whats going on here, but its entertaining. 🍿
ruby needle
wether or not not active meshes are counted doesnt matter.
it still would result in getting the avarage avatar lmaterial count down
vocal shard
Basically, tell those people with unoptimized avatar to go fuck themselves.
granite coral
client options are the way to go in this cases
ruby needle
@vocal shard highly against it
granite coral
let the user decide what he wants to see
true sky
polys dont kill performance. it is the draw calls that kill it. like uneccesary material drops
ruby needle
2 class experiences completely ruin immersion
and it makes peopel not care again
they are going to be like "use your slider"
true sky
like 2 seperate materials using the same texture file
vocal shard
Well if your immersion involves having 23 fps framerate because 12 people are using 12 different avatars with 24 material each... well have fun.
granite coral
if people say "use your slider" you respond "no, optimize your avatar"
there's no reason to limit users without choise
ruby burrow
There's surely technologies that can get round many of these issues though. It's obviously not something to expect even within the full release stage, but 'single shard' technology has demonstrated tens of thousands of simulated players in one instance in tests and other upcoming games.
true sky
cause most people dont care if someone runs a potato as a pc
median basalt
I don't want sliders in the graphics either
indigo fern
Or those guys that have a completely separate material for solid colors 
median basalt
Just limit materials to a sensible limit to begin with
I'm not proud to say that my second MMD model had 54 materials, 20 of which were solid colors.
If the SDK had told me to knock it off, I would have atlased it right away.
indigo fern
20 solid colors 
granite coral
like, the easiest solution right now: block individual avatars, but not the user
median basalt
Flandre Scarlet, every wing crystal had a material
vocal shard
How about automatic material count detection ? And on client side, set a limit on that. Like "Do not render avatar over X material count"
granite coral
that would solve a lot of problems alone
tidal aspen
individual color materials, duplicate textures on materials 👌
true sky
the knuckles only has 2 draw calls for the body and eyes and is almost 20k polys. only way to kill it is doing it to mouth, gloves, shoes, etc.
where not needed
ruby burrow
Blocking individual avatars is a must have feature. That one needs to come soon.
vocal shard
Definitely
median basalt
Yeah
true sky
cant detect avatar name as someone can always change it
granite coral
just that would largely overcome any limitation problem
vocal shard
Or maybe not like complete block, but maybe... ability to derender some people ? But with the option to still hear them
median basalt
Yeah, blocking their avatar that is
ruby burrow
It's also an alternative means to neuter crashers.
median basalt
Just replace them with the opaque MR bot
granite coral
ye
true sky
only way is if they arent friended, block avatars by default
ruby burrow
Their 9000 shader purple baseball bat can't hurt you if it doesn't exist.
median basalt
The only issue is that blocked avatars have the wrong height. Perhaps MR bot should be automatically scaled?
true sky
nah
indigo fern
Turn them into just the empty bounding box of their avatar
median basalt
To a certain extent, that is
granite coral
almost sure there was already a canny for that
median basalt
No huge MR bots for huge avatars being blocked
vocal shard
Turn them into... low poly knuckles.
granite coral
5 meters MR bot
ruby burrow
Yeah, it'd be nice if the default blank avatar had scaled height. At least, up to a limit of 6 foot or something. So you don't get giant ones.
median basalt
Yes
vocal shard
But yeah, anyone starting a post on canny.io about the ability to derender some avatars ? Would definitely sign that. lol
granite coral
just force their head position to the right one
ruby burrow
I've also been thinking it'd be really nice if the blue loading hologram did that, loading the avatar descriptor in advance, so you're not looking over everyone. No way to know how feasible that'd be though.
granite coral
squatting bots
ruby burrow
It's kind of funny how VR Chat is the only place you ever hear, "Ahem... my eyes are down here."
indigo fern
Hmm
vocal shard
"hey don't step on me !"
ruby burrow
"Woah! Don't squish me!" is my personal version of that line. ^
granite coral
i usually hear "yes step on me please" but that may be for another reason
vocal shard
That moment the 4th more requested feature is the ability to touch boobs. Yeah, literally: https://vrchat.canny.io/feature-requests/p/hand-colliders
And it's "planned"
ruby needle
needs to have a propper way to disable them
and stuff
so it's not a "just add x" thing
granite coral
tho having hand colliders could actually be used for other stuff
true sky
colliders with dynamic bone is possible
granite coral
like for an eventual glove support with haptic feedback
median basalt
It's pretty hard to do, and dynamic bone by itself does not support any "universal" colliders
You have to predefine all the colliders
ruby burrow
This is referring to being usable on other avatars.
And without whatever trick that one particular avatar world uses.
median basalt
Problem is that dynamic bone goes through every collider in the list to check for collision, you'd have to dynamically add colliders to that list
Oh yeah, Kareeda's method
vocal shard
Yeah, as in... now VRChat is going to turn into a gropping simulator.
ruby burrow
"Turn into"
ruby burrow
You mean, "evolve into a more sophisticated one".
granite coral
^^^
ruby needle
thats why there needs to be limitation systems 😛
ruby burrow
Yeah, though that much is simple. just add a menu toggle for "Self / Friends / All"
granite coral
"you can use it only for 5$ every 10 minutes"
ruby burrow
Self being what we currently have, local only. The others self explanatory.
vocal shard
Or else we will have dudes going around gropping everything in sight while saying "uuuhdduuuuuduuuuuh"
ruby needle
"just" the limiting system would have to be implemented tho, and synced 😛
but yes
kinda like that
vocal shard
Finally flat chest would get a massive advantage though 🤔
ruby burrow
You think lack of jiggle will stop anyone? :v
ruby burrow
That is a danger.
vocal shard
yeah
ruby needle
maybe also a limiter that can set max update rate and bones
and when the limit is reached it only renders every other bone
but that would be a bit harder to set up
ruby burrow
The more tactile the game gets, the more fussy people will get with maximising the quality of their avatars hair etc. Beyond reasonable limits.
small wing
I just came to the conclusion that reading chat when sleep deprived here is not a good idea.
granite coral
as long as limits can be changed clientside anything is possible
the problem is when limits are imposed
vocal shard
"Let's animate this skirt with 46 different bones with dynamic bones. One dynamic bones per bone set. What a great idea !"
small wing
ohhhh now i see what you are talking about
yeah, dynamic bone limiters would be cool.
limit the fps of them though
dont disable them because then shit breaks.
👌
granite coral
ye, i've seen a 600 dynamic bones once
indigo fern
granite coral
but run at 10 fps
granite coral
was actually funny
cause wan't really lagging that much
and you would see everything fine
small wing
wan't
granite coral
but the hair lagging
small wing
im confused
ruby burrow
Is 'Cloth' more performance friendly?
small wing
i need to sleep
granite coral
depends
small wing
sleep is good
vocal shard
It's built-in in Unity
granite coral
on how many poly the mesh affected is
like, if you use cloth on a 100k poly mesh
it won't be gentle
ruby burrow
Ah. Interesting.
indigo fern
Crashes unity pretty much at that point
small wing
What if they made a shader that does mesh deformation like dynamic bones?
that would make it super optimised.
granite coral
but on like 1-2k polys runs without any problem and looks really nice
i would like the things added in later unity updates tho
vocal shard
Nini @small wing
small wing
night
ruby burrow
Will have to look into it. Sounds like an ideal alternative for my main avatars skirt. I've been feeling guilty about the number of bones in that lately, but have been reluctant to face the hassle of reducing them in blender.
vocal shard
Yeah forget about using that on hair
granite coral
or better said, it works, but won't look good at all
maybe it can look decent enough on some specific hair styles used quite a bit in games
but would be hell to setup
vocal shard
Especially long hair that need to collide with the head, the back, the arms...
And collide with themselves too
ruby burrow
Mine just has short hair, but I've already got that working really nicely with the tiny amount of bones it has.
granite coral
you actually cant make them collide with themself in this version
no inter mesh collision unfortunately
ruby burrow
Got nicely configured gravity and everything, for those sideway head tilts.
median basalt
@small wing the VRM plugin for Unity has dynamic bone-like physics with super good performance
granite coral
well, honestly a lot of things have better performance than dynamic bones xD
median basalt
Yeah, dynamic bone is pretty unoptimized. It's actually a very large killer, usually more so than materials.
Merge your bones like Tupper explains in his tutorial.
ruby needle
the problem is people dont care... yet again
median basalt
Raw bone counts is what matters
median basalt
Yeah, and distant disable too
ruby needle
but quite a few things wont even need 30
granite coral
actually materials are the second smallest performance inpact factor in vrc, but is one of the only ones we actually have control on
ruby burrow
I met someone last night, with an 'Alien'-esqe avatar, with two long snaking tails. Blocked and un-blocked him to confirm as the source of the lag, and pointed it out to him.
He admitted that each tail had 100 dynamic bones in it.
ruby burrow
And clearly not set to a low refresh either.
He also said that he originally made it with nine tails, but it wouldn't load for him, or something.
vocal shard
This kind of people... this is why we can't have nice things.
ruby burrow
The tails must have had a crapton of polys too. They were super detailed.
granite coral
best dynamic bone setup: put it on the hips bone, set everything to 0, and one update per second
median basalt
Was it a reptilian tail or a fluffy one?
granite coral
enjoy
ruby burrow
Like... the avatar did look pretty sweet, and the tails moved in a really cool way, but it was hard to enjoy it at 10fps.
ruby needle
we're talking about hair Rokk
median basalt
Oh, whoops haha
Thought you meant like floof tails
I have a Ran Yakumo model that I spent ages optimizing for the tails
ruby needle
median basalt
She has like 9 tails or whatever
ruby burrow
I'll have to try that Cibbi. : P
median basalt
Probably more
vocal shard
Yeah Ran has 9 tails I think
median basalt
Anyway, I ended up keeping all the tails but having one bone control multiple. I think I divided it into three "groups" and only branched off at the tips.
ruby burrow
Have you seen GearBells Naga avatars? They use dynamic bones with almost all settings on 0, to create a cool following snake tail effect.
ruby burrow
Smoothly follows wherever you go, and stays there.
median basalt
Probably low elasticity and high damping
vocal shard
Lamia avatar tho... it would require custom made idle/walk/run animations I guess
median basalt
Or just no elasticity and damping
ruby burrow
Much better than the earlier bouncy spaghetti Lamia that existed before.
granite coral
you can just fake legs and let the dynamic bones do most of the thing
median basalt
I really do wonder what the "accepted" way of dealing with this is within Unity. What if a character is missing a limb but still wants to be humanoid?
granite coral
even without custom animations
median basalt
They really couldn't make the Humanoid system with the assumption that a character might not have certain parts of their body?
vocal shard
Maybe make transparent legs and assign that to the leg bones
granite coral
i guess is cause for that you can go back to generic models and do whatever you want with that
ruby burrow
Nah Rokk, just imitate GearBells method. She tried for over a week with different settings, before saying "Fuck it" and setting everything to 0. Turned out that worked brilliantly.
For a snake tail I mean.
granite coral
like, humanoid is mainly to simplify more fully humanoid characters
median basalt
Nice
granite coral
for everything else you can just use generic ones and animate it like always
ruby burrow
I'll check the exact settings.
vocal shard
Although... a lamia/naga would move their "hips" a lot to get the tail to move around.
ruby burrow
The tail moves itself. They're not swinging it from above. It's a giant muscle. 😛
Although that was the one thing Gear didn't manage to get working, a custom "slither" walk anim.
median basalt
That's because the locomotion layer of the animator seems to have an avatar mask over the armature or something.
granite coral
ye
median basalt
For some reason, you can't animate bones in walking animations unless they're part of the humanoid rig definition.
So no extra legs either.
granite coral
and that's unfortunate
median basalt
You can do everything else though, such as shape keys and audio objects
ruby burrow
Settings for trailing tail.
https://i.imgur.com/2sSFcK3.png?1
granite coral
or else you probably couldn't even set audio and such
ruby burrow
I've seen someone with extra legs mimicking their real legs, but don't know how it works.
granite coral
that's rigid bodies-joints
calm trout
I need help
median basalt
Yeah, rigidbodies and character joints seems like a good one
median basalt
Ah, so there is high damping
granite coral
eighter that or something with final ik
median basalt
No, it is the masking
ruby burrow
Yeah, I forgot which it was. That's the "nearly all to 0". Thought it was some other setting.
granite coral
but the problem with final ik is that you need to raycast to find a place as target for your leg
and that's custom scripting
median basalt
@granite coral it seems there's a mask on the armature but not the meshes or anything
Well, VR IK can do that automatically already with the footstep locomotion
Which incidentally contained the giant-ass exploit
granite coral
only for the 2 legs tho
median basalt
Yeah
granite coral
so no spider like things
median basalt
Final IK has grounders and stuff
The procedural spider demo is a good example
No animations, just IK
Walking desert spider
vocal shard
I have an avatar on SL that is basically human top slapped on a spider bottom. lol
granite coral
grounders by themselves don't do the trick tho
you need to script something to get something like that spider demo
and that's something we can't do
vocal shard
Was fun to climb on walls and spook people by hiding under their ceiling`
lol that Miia MMD lamia avatar is so looooong. X)
ruby burrow
And it's tail goes completely beserk when in motion too. ^ ^
It tries to maintain it's coiled resting shape, but loosely enough that it flails around behind.
vocal shard
tail just spaz out and tries to reach space "It's out of control ! Call an exorcist ! "
She's also 84,626 polygons heavy
ruby burrow
One thing to note for avatars with trailing tails, if trying GBs method, is to set them to have larger bounding boxes horizontally than just the coiled body needs. Otherwise the tail will disappear when people nearby look away from you.
trim oracle
havent played since last update, are avatars loading way slower for anyone else?
even my avatars
ruby burrow
They need to either be inside your bounding box, or able to "see" some part of it, for you and your tail to render.
vocal shard
Lots of particularities to get it work eh
ruby burrow
@trim oracle Yeah, they are loading slower, and your own now needs to be reloaded with each world you visit, but it was necessary to kill the avatar stealing.
glass python
can i go to vrchat now?
ruby burrow
Slight trade off, but worth it in my opinion. Slight shame it's not as easy to subtly quick swap anymore, but oh well.
trim oracle
even if i dont world swap going back and forth seams to take a while
ruby burrow
You can Sparky. Pretty sure the servers are up.
glass python
thank you
ruby burrow
Oh
trim oracle
slower than before and i upped my net my about 10x recently
vocal shard
I wonder tho... your own avatars are still stored locally after the first loading right ?
glass python
my keyboar i kin a me up right now
ruby burrow
And if you get any weird messages about being "banned" from a suspicious moderator name. It's not real.
Recent dumb hack. Just restart the game and it will let you log in again.
Annoying, but harmless.
trim oracle
seams like a real shoddy solution to avatar stealing
but you dont see me racing to code a fix so cant complain
north plaza
Is there any ways that i can use leap motion with vrchat? Found one github "mod" but it killed off roomscale tracking for me
ruby needle
i think there was a solution for crappy smartphone hack
trinitus something?
that use that for hand controll
vocal shard
Hello!
hollow patio
How often are those false mod reports
vocal shard
Can i talk to a mod
ruby needle
This discord is not for support or the like.
If you need help you can ask here and someone might be able to help
else reed #vrchat-support
if its about a user to reprot read #moderation-reports
vocal shard
Na its not for that i get banned for a thing i didnt do
and i did send a email to vrchat-support
5 day ago
fast bronze
then wait for the reply
ruby needle
if you want to appeal for a ban you need to mail moderation@vrchat.com
vocal shard
i did never respond
ruby needle
response can take quite a while
vocal shard
i send that email 2 weeks ago
fast bronze
you said 5 days
vocal shard
ya because i did send a email 5 day ago to vrchat-support and i did send a email to moderation@vrchat.com 2 weeks ago
fast bronze
could be they dont need to review your case
ruby needle
usually you should get a mail in that case still
ruby needle
but yes. not any case is respondet to if evidence is considered definite and the result is final.
fast bronze
ntm they dont need to provide reason or allow appeal
"If you violate any provision of this EULA, your permission from us to use the Service will terminate automatically. In addition, VRChat may in its sole discretion terminate your user account on the Service or suspend or terminate your access to the Service at any time for any reason or no reason, with or without notice." -VRChat TOS, Part 10, Sentence 3 and 4
so ya
undone inlet
I just got disconnect saying VRChat not responding? tf?
...then the game crashes reeeeeee
ruby needle
dont post the same thing across multiple chanel
undone inlet
Yes VIP meaning this game no longer getting funded
ruby needle
but these thigns have been existing a bit
glossy hollow
I saw one of those in game today!
ruby needle
its actually old tags
long crown
sorry
long crown
I think the channel is right here, so I deleted it and climbed it.
glossy hollow
Freaked me out and I got offline...
long crown
omg..
vocal shard
Hmm
jade heath
anyone else having trouble connecting?
dull mountain
I love how I see people complaining in the servers I'm in about how lazy the vrchat dev team to work on fixing hacking and the breaches and they just going to rush fix the problem when it is critical.
I don't complain about it. I just show what people say in the servers I'm it.
unkempt swan
hey HTC vive dancers, will you buy vive wireless kit?
vocal shard
should i change my avatar to a male or stay as a female purple fox girl?
are you a male or female
male
vocal shard
im sure what i want tho
*not sure
then stay as the purple fox girl
male makes the best female
someone called me a trap and gay when i was a purple fox girl though
😦
ignore those forever alone who tried to hook up online
ruby needle
then they should learn the correct definition 😛
i can just laugh at people calling male players playing normal female avatars trap
cus... its a normal female avatar... not a trap
vocal shard
god damn it Fpaul i was gonna correct your spelling of learn before u edited
ruby needle
😛
generally symbols i cant input is right tho
ignore those
be what you want to be
vocal shard
stahp correcting before me
somber rain
ruby needle
hopefully that includes a atlas 
valid ember
hopefully you're still under 20k polys 
inner cape
glass python
how do i mute someone?
fading owl
@glass python open up the menu point at someone click your trigger or mouse and then mute them in the menu
wispy phoenix
What's the story about hackers?...
timid dragon
attention
glass python
when i grab on to the top of vr chat to move it some where else it automatically gets dragged to the lower left corner of my screen. Is there a way to stop that from happening?
glass python
thank god.
timid dragon
press escape go into systems and then you can drag it normally
until you close the menu
wispy phoenix
I hear stories from hackers everywhere...
anyone please tell me
timid dragon
i already gave you the answer
glass python
i also need to mention this but i always leave vr chat minimized so in other words that involves the problem that i addressed here as well.
vocal shard
ah, you mean the wizard hacker who can fry your gpu and delete your system32
wispy phoenix
no, i see this news
VRC-News:
DO NOT go into public worlds for the next week or until dev's find a solution.
There are currently two groups of hackers.
One group is getting people banned (not sure how, but it's pretty bad a lot of people are gone)
And the other group is frying people's CPU's and taking their accounts.
Both of these have been proven and should be avoided.
Sorry for the hate because of the all mark.
vocal shard
it is stupid
wispy phoenix
oh
timid dragon
they are hacker
glass python
would your answer still apply to my minimized vr chat?
vocal shard
People start rumors, and they spread and get exaggerated
vocal shard
anyone with a little knowledge about tech should know how ridiculous it is
vocal shard
For the cpu thing, unless you have a hardware malfunction, there's nothing they can do
wispy phoenix
I actually saw a character without an ID yesterday.
That character had Emote in Japanese.
vocal shard
For the mod thing, it's a spoof
timid dragon
and they cant access ur computer or user data until they got permissions to the database
vocal shard
They make the client think they have mod abilities, so client side things, they can mess with
vocal shard
But anything server side like bans, they can't do
wispy phoenix
Three people were using the same character, and no ID at all.
When I checked in the social menu, the world window with the characters looked white.
timid dragon
they just use doors that are not closed yet
vocal shard
they could be hiding their nameplate using a plane with a shader
it is far from hacking
wispy phoenix
Yeah, I could not even ban.
And I could not block it.
I click the Mute button and it disappeared....
vocal shard
but from what I've heard some are saying that they are doing this to force the devs to fix the issues that have been ignored. Don't know how true that is
wispy phoenix
hmm
vocal shard
maybe i should rob a bank to force the government to improve their security
glass python
:/
timid dragon
it also should just be ignored here and not be a main discussion sorry that i started it
glass python
😶
vocal shard
that is how ridiculous that logic sounds to me
indigo fern
new topic, lets go
indigo fern
umm
how about that...
oh, they finally spaced out the loading screen circle properly
vocal shard
👍
indigo fern
so thats kinda cool
wispy phoenix
thank you
indigo fern
about time too 