#career-chat

1 messages · Page 97 of 1

raven wagon
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Hello! Can anyone help me I don't know what I want to be as of now. I am pretty confident on my 3D skills but I am leaning towards VFX, started learning a month ago. I am really stuck and don't know where to go. Can anyone give any tips?

plucky hatch
flat gazelle
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Do you mean VFX as in the VFX industry, or game VFX?

raven wagon
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oh sorry i meant game vfx.

plucky hatch
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What tips are you looking for ?

raven wagon
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Looking to see what people would do. I know that game vfx artists are rare and they get paid a lot. As a 3D artist, as time passes, more people go to 3D art and more people learn and get good. Basically VFX artists are in demand while 3D companies can find 3D artists easily nowadays. Thinking long term stability. I have friends from game companies and a lot of them said that the industry is lacking VFX artists since they are more technical and you actually cant just be an artist or programmer and that you should be both.

plucky hatch
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So what tips are you looking for then?

raven wagon
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Do you think I should go for 3D or VFX artist, for long term

plucky hatch
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It sounds like you already made up your mind that it’s something you want to learn, so are you looking for courses etc ? Well up to you, when it comes to design it’s always a good idea to follow what you are passionate about and enjoy, if you just want money you are in the wrong industry (games).
While VFX artists are less common than 3D artists, it’s still an oversaturated market.

raven wagon
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Well I dont see myself working outside games, so I dont mind if it isn't that high pay. I feel like I can work longer cause working for games seems more alive

plucky hatch
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Well if it’s something you enjoy then go for it, you will certainly be more hire-able. It all depends on where you live too, where I am they are not rare, just more expensive than the usual.

raven wagon
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Alright, thank you! I'll think more about this if I'll lean towards VFX or 3D.

flat gazelle
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Then join the forum and discord (not allowed to link) and you'l be up and running in no time.

flat gazelle
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I also disagree wholeheartedly with the statement that it's oversaturated

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My vfx artist ad has been out for a year. Granted I need a lead/senior. But getting good applications are very rare.

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It's the same everywhere

flat gazelle
plucky hatch
# flat gazelle Where the hell are you!?

Sweden, so have a lot of game studios in my city (over 20), Volvo, Volvo Cars, Polestar and half a dozen other auto companies, Thats before going into all the tech companies and agencies. So really quite lucky (so far)!

plucky hatch
flat gazelle
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That's super odd. I'm in Stockholm and I think I know basically 70% of the FX artists in the countryby name at least. A ton of studios are trying to hire but none of us succeed because there are no unemployed FX artists.

plucky hatch
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Ahh I’m in Gothenburg, I can give you some names of some who may be free if you like?

flat gazelle
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Yes please

plucky hatch
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For sure! I send you a DM

plucky hatch
languid atlas
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Courier

steel creek
steel creek
plucky hatch
steel creek
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I am also in vfx for tv/film, not games, yet, I dont see any issue with them finding people they need, just quality people

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Insomniac is across the quad and those guys dont seem to have any problems here. I see endless apps for vfx from ppl doing both. /shrug

plucky hatch
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What country are you in?

steel creek
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US

flat gazelle
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And yet their ad is still open

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Seems weird that so many companies make up things about this being an issue if they get hundreds of apps.

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This is my entire community and my peers we are talking about. It's quite a common topic in my sphere, but I'm sure there are outliers.

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I barely get either

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Yeah I get spam applications from vfx people who have never touched a game engine.

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Some could be trainable but having done so twice, it's a really big investment for a small payoff.

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Slap on some performance restrictions and their skills evaporate. It's frustrating

round radish
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Howdy!

ionic rose
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I'm here!

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What do you mean his thingy?

round radish
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I don't want companies hiring my thingy.

ionic rose
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Ah, highest, like 250k

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and that's amazon

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because their comp is dumb

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yea for mid

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my buddy just got hired there for 350 at level 6

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senior is level 5

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mid is level 4

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3-4

round radish
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Sounds so much like Scientology.

ionic rose
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For us, probably around 120-140 for mid

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Full remote

round radish
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Sounds about right I guess. I'm contracted for 160/month.

ionic rose
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uhhh show up and do your work

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lmao i mean we say 40 but what does that mean?

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not like we track time or anything

round radish
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Totally counts.

ionic rose
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Pretty easy to tell whether or not someone is putting in the work

round radish
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Tbh for me it varies. Depends how involved in the work I am. OBviously today I'm quite invested... it's 6am and I'm still working.

ionic rose
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yep

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if you get assigned 60 hours of work for the sprint and you show up to standups saying everything is going well then you're not done at the end of the sprint 5 times, that's sus

round radish
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Or you have to onboard someone.

ionic rose
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or interview 5 people...

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lol I wish it was 60 hours

round radish
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Clean up after juniors!

ionic rose
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ah yea

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I don't clean up, I comment the PRs and send em back

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if they have questions, they know how to get ahold ofme

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#whywedon'thaveinterns

flat gazelle
# steel creek Insomniac is across the quad and those guys dont seem to have any problems here....

That's super interesting. I might be misinterpreting you, but since this differs so wildly from my experience I asked the twitterverse.
The first reply was from an ex bungie fx artist calling bs. That has since been liked by fx people from Epic, 343, Insomniac (!), codemasters, amazon, beyondfx ans so on.

So it seems you have found a fairly unique supply of talent, and Im very jealous :)

steel creek
flat gazelle
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Yeah, nobody else seems to even get that.

steel creek
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¯_(ツ)_/¯

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I guess your anecdotal poll on twitter invalidates my experience

flat gazelle
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Didn't you say you weren't in games?

steel creek
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I also said I get apps with experience for both. So, either I am reading things wrong, or applicants are lying, for years. I got no other thing than experience and what I see in front of me, at work, and places that do hire for it.

flat gazelle
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Because it sounds a bit like you are mixing up the two different meanings of VFX. If that's the case, then I have no problem believing it, as that's what Robots vs Dinos did as well.

steel creek
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visual effects?

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boom. sparkle. poof

flat gazelle
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VFX in film: Umbrella term that includes a bunch of different disciplines.
VFX in games: Ther equivalent of FX in film.

steel creek
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the only thing that could be confusing is I do the traditional "form" of VFX but we dont even call it that anymore either

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yeah, we dont just throw out VFX in tv/film as it means anything anymore

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you call ppl and depts by name, like in a game pipe, same same

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old school would call all the technical animators "vfx artists", etc...

flat gazelle
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Interesting, then yeah you have very much stumbled on something unique. In my years hiring for the role, I don't think I've ever had more than one application with any game experience at all per week. Getting one with Good experience is near impossible.

steel creek
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that last part, yes.

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But, I assume this is what it is in Burbank/Glendale/Los Angeles county USA. This is a huge place for games and tv and film. People who cant make freelance doing one, do something else in the meanwhile

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there is also a huge explosion of XR "game" companies in that area the last half decade

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tangential, but maybe a point, I would not recommend anyone move there for a job, unless its a job that is paying north of 140k (US) a year

tidal moth
terse fern
tidal moth
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glad it's that easy

chilly sundial
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Could always go for the 140,000.01, as im sure they would be more willing to do that

terse fern
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good thinking

steel creek
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If it's exactly 140 you could only afford to live in a cardboard box and shop at Vons. If it's one penny more you're allowed to add a door and shop at wholepaycheck

nova tartan
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I dunno I think people exaggerate it
like if your rent is 3k
ok you pay 36k a year in rent, and you probably pay between 30 and 40k in taxes
but that would still leave you with like 30k in raw spending money at 100k
30k in spending money doesn't sound like bad living to me, many people don't even see that much period
am I missing a variable?

steel creek
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a lot. Take home is roughly 72% of what you make after taxes, insurance, contributions, etc... Your home should only ever be 30% of your existence. Why is your rent 3k in the first place (try more like 3800 btw) -- that is RENT btw, not a mortgage, so even worse.

So, lets take 3000 / .30 x 12 months to get the total we should make a year to "cover" month to month... 120k! Woot! Except, I didnt remove the TAX yet..... so lets adjust that by another 25%+ since tax in the U.S. is avg'd out around 27%. 120 / .75 == 160k ..... which is 20k+ more than I already suggested.

Keeping in mind, rent is higher, and cost of living in LA is 2.5 that of any where else in the U.S.

nova tartan
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the 30% rule is on gross usually

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and even with all of that that still gives you HUGE amounts of spending money

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like more money in spending money than people in LCOL see period

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in absolute terms

plucky hatch
nova tartan
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that 2.5 figure sounds like outright bullshit, come on now, I haven't been able to find any statistics that say it's even 1.5x as much as other major us cities, let alone 2.5x

terse fern
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damn US is expensive yo

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no wonder the salaries are turbo high

plucky hatch
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I guess they have other costs too they have to equate too inside the high salary, so it’s not all spending money.

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Medical, education etc

terse fern
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yeah for sure thats what I'm saying

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it's expensive over there

nova tartan
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I dunno I'm looking at different factors
Car insurance is the same as my LCOL city
Internet is the same
Phone bill is the same
Taxes are lower

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I'm not seeing any noticeable food pricing differences

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like rent is substantially more, and I'm sure as an attachment parking is also way more
but overall that still means your spending power is ridiculously high compared to lcol salaries

steel creek
steel creek
nova tartan
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can you source it then for me? all I'm seeing is that LA isn't even the most expensive city in the US, let alone 2.5x higher than the next

steel creek
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yes, the census

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The median California home is priced nearly 2.5 times higher than the median national home, according to 2019 Census data.

nova tartan
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that's home price, not COL

steel creek
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bro, dont be obtuse. Local economues rise to the value they are seeking

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You get paid 150k a year in CA for a job that is 70k in Nevada and the houses scale the same

nova tartan
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I'm not being obtuse you literally said cost of living is 2.5x higher

steel creek
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it is

terse fern
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140k gross is still hella high

steel creek
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correct, it is

nova tartan
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and Except, I didnt remove the TAX yet..... so lets adjust that by another 25%+ since tax in the U.S. is avg'd out around 27%. 120 / .75 == 160k ..... which is 20k+ more this is where you didn't use gross properly

steel creek
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but yes, lets argue about reality and everyone out here saying that the last 20+ years along with evidance in census data as the day is long

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That is correct. I literally calculated the gross payment per year salary you need to cover that scenario lol

nova tartan
steel creek
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160k/year GROSS salary

nova tartan
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no

steel creek
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yes

nova tartan
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gross is pre tax

steel creek
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and your image litearlly backs up what I said. Look at the index

nova tartan
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LA is 3rd place

steel creek
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lol, obtuse. yes, at 202

nova tartan
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you said it was not only #1, but #1 by a huge margin

steel creek
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2x the price of avg

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ok, play semantics bye

terse fern
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well that makes sense now that I see this chart Carthage, My friend was offer a job in san francisco for 250k a year for tech artist

steel creek
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indeed. its expensive as f in SF

nova tartan
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Keeping in mind, rent is higher, and cost of living in LA is 2.5 that of any where else in the U.S.
what's the definition of anywhere again?

terse fern
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but it was a Work form home job so he would stay here in canada and basically make 5 times our salary lol

nova tartan
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does it include newyork, portland, chicage, seattle, boston, jersey...

steel creek
plucky hatch
terse fern
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I couldn't do that, I like working in an office and I'm zero productive from home so I have to stay close to my actual job

tidal moth
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a former colleague of mine went to LA for 140k, hence why I asked

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it did seem excessive

trim pasture
terse fern
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yeah but you'll end up in the middle of nowhere probably haha

trim pasture
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Sort of, but that's the difference between Winnipeg and Gilliam, which has a hydro station, plus only a few hours south of Gilliam is the city of Thompson. Canada's stupidly huge for the population.

nova tartan
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yo are you in winnipeg?

terse fern
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if I do that from quebec I end up in some empty place lol

trim pasture
nova tartan
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ah cool

modern relic
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So I'd like to get more into unreal in a professional sense but I feel I don't know anywhere near enough to start freelancing. One of my friends is helping me out by paying me to work on his game which is going good aside from that I haven't really allocated a lot of time to work on it. I've browsed through some of the job board postings and I can't even help with most/any of them which indicates that I'm not ready and it would be a poor decision to give up my current job (at least in part by reducing available hours) to take on freelancing. I've learnt a ton about unreal in the ~8 months I've been using it but I'm nowhere near where I want to be, or anywhere near some of the posts on /r/unrealengine that say they have been using unreal for 6 months and have made a production ready game solo. I know it's not a good idea to compare myself to other people but I can't help it. Does anyone have any suggestions about how I can get good? I guess the main answer will be something along the lines of "keep practicing"

spice dagger
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Unfortunately you answered your own question at the end there.

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There is no magic pill to take that makes you instantly good at your chosen discipline.

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Experience only comes with time.

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As you mentioned it is very unwise to compare yourself to others, at least at this very early time in your journey.

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People who claim to have a “production ready” game after 6 months are either already seasoned developers or talking out their arse.

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Focus only on what you want to achieve.

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Take as much time as you need to get ready to take on jobs.

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Build a portfolio

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Do unpaid work to get a feel for what means to work for/with others on a project that isnt your own.

modern relic
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@spice dagger great advice, thanks. Sometimes I just need to be grounded I think since I get in my own head

serene crystal
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oh, beat me to it

round radish
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It makes me wonder what type of game they consider "production ready"

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I mean, a tetris clone would probably take you a week.

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And it'd be totally production ready.

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A NaNite number of triangles.

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-NaN. For reasons.

pure kettle
chilly sundial
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Its like that really bad fighting game on steam thats like $200

pure kettle
chilly sundial
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It might be, dont remember the name, just saw moistCr1tikal play it

shut token
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I know which you're talking about - it was literally just an asset from the Unity marketplace.

round radish
pure kettle
lost aurora
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Just curious guys....What are the most in demand skills in the industry with unreal engine?

flat gazelle
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FX is up there

vapid sierra
pure kettle
grim hull
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C++, the deeper you know the engine the better.

royal lintel
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Engineering is always in demand. Specialties like graphics or networking even moreso, but good engineers in general are always needed.

spice dagger
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Good {insert chosen discipline here} are always in demand really.

royal lintel
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Fair enough.

lost aurora
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Appreciated guys

warm crescent
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hey guys i need advice
what are the best ways to make money from all this game dev stuff
like 3d modelling, animation, programming, music, art, video editing etc
if you have all these skills what is the ebst way to make money ?

plucky hatch
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Lol

round radish
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Getting a job usually does the trick.

warm crescent
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Lolol what would you say is better then - job or freelancing ?

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Or can they intertwine

flat gazelle
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It's hard to freelance without the experience from a studio job.

warm crescent
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That makes sense

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I’m thinking of learning on of these skills for game dev then

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Either programming

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Orr

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We’ll probably just programming lol

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I’d learn programming heavily and then learn other aspects slightly too

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For example if I learnt unreals programming language, I’d learn how to use unreal in general quite well too

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Gunna be tough tho I’ve never programmed before lol

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My area of expertise lies elsewhere 😵‍💫

flat gazelle
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You are at least a few years from viable freelancing, or working with Unreal. So don't worry about the career part and start learning the things you enjoy.

plucky hatch
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Hi everyone, I have a question for you. Could you recommend the best sites with offers for game developers?

pure kettle
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The pay rate?

plucky hatch
pure kettle
terse fern
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I personnaly just use linkedin

trim pasture
pallid palm
# warm crescent My area of expertise lies elsewhere 😵‍💫

If your area of expertise lies elsewhere, it might be best to consider focusing on other areas besides coding. Obviously if you're really interested in coding, great, but there are lots of jobs beyond programming, if you have another skillset you want to capitalize on. Starting from scratch without coding before is pretty challenging - totally worthwhile - but yeah definitely can be a long road before you start getting work.

warm crescent
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oh yea dw i already do that

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i never meant taking on coding as a new full time thing i just meant learn it on the side as a side hustle to maybe make money in a year or so time

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im not sure though, still on the fence about it, since its a huge thing to jump into

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and not really my thing anyway. im an artsy guy, dont do well with code 🤣

pure kettle
warm crescent
devout ginkgo
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Is anyone in here a big fan of ARPG genre, titles like D2/Poe? pm me please 🙂

lavish lagoon
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Hi everyone. I have an interview coming up for a Technical Artist position focused on procedural model creation. I will need to answer a 'scenario' type question. Does anyone have resources/examples for what these questions might be? There are plenty of examples for UX and Product designers, can't find much for technical artists. Thank you!

last edge
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So I know that this is already probably asked before

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But is doing game development as a career a good idea? I would love to get into it but I hear stuff online about it being unstable and it being really rough

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That it's better to just do it as a hobby with a job that's more stable supporting it

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But I wanna ask you guys, what do you guys think? Is it worth it to do game dev as a career?

flat gazelle
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It's as stable as any other tech industry. I'm about 14 years in and no redundancies or unemployment. But there are others who have been unlucky and hit by plenty or studio closures and the like. It will also vary based on location.

frail vortex
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Hello everyone, I am from India and looking for VFX (gaming) courses overseas. Can someone recommend me a good college to study and will it be worth it?
I just completed my undergraduation.

steady pewter
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Do you look to move out on your own? You can get most of the necessary knowledge online anyway. It will save money.

frail vortex
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I wanna move out of India and work abroad

steady pewter
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I think you will have hard time to prove your worth without any demonstration of what you can do. Therefore, I can only recommend you you start to learn a lot online, work hard and the apply for positions. Make yourself a portfolio, show your worth.

pure kettle
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Besides, I don't think there's a class specifically for video game VFX (at least from more formal academy institutions)

flat gazelle
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There is not.

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Plenty of material online these days however.

pure kettle
vagrant brambleBOT
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:triangular_flag_on_post: viking#0772 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

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:warning: Failed to send a DM. User will not be notified.

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:no_entry_sign: viking#0772 was banned.

tidal wraith
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Substance Launcher will be gone Sept. 30, 2022. Any idea what will happen to substance source and all the materials I own for unreal engine?

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Never mind, I think I found it. It's called Substance In Unreal Engine by Adobe Substance 3D in the market place. This is replacing Substance Source.

granite solar
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Looking for input outside of GDC talks: Do you guys think that attending GDC - especially as a Conference Associate - is a worthwhile or significantly helpful way to help get a foot in the industry?

pastel estuary
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if you are going to network there, yes.

flat gazelle
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Make sure you plan it though. Book meetings, figure out which parties you are attending, what companies you want to speak to etc.

granite solar
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I planned on going primarily for the networking, just having second thoughts about the trip, all though it's getting a lil late to back out now 😅

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I appreciate the input none the less

pastel estuary
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it can be scary, and there are a lot of impressions, as a hermit/agoraphobiac it was certainly scary for me, but that feeling went away soon as everyone there is kind, friendly, and its so much fun to talk with fellow developers about things you are interested in and enthusiastic about.
I've made some friends for life this way.

granite solar
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As a hermit that lives in the woods of Pennsylvania, San Francisco is waaay out of my comfort zone 😅 I'm worrying about a whole lot of stuff all of sudden. I appreciate hearing about your experience though Luos.

shut token
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SF is just far too expensive. Love to go though.

granite solar
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Yeah, that's one of my biggest concerns. It's not friendly on the college kids bank account to say the least

fading hatch
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How to set up a nice portfolio if you have worked under an NDA and your former company doesn't allow to share any relevant information?

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Or any nice screenshots and stuff? I'm not even allowed to tell what I was working on technically.

round radish
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Maybe use some of the stuff you learned to make a custom solo project?

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Not copying anything from their stuff, of course, just to demonstrate your skills.

fading hatch
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Yeah but it would take some weeks to do that and build something similar. And it misses the industrial scale and complexity maybe. I'll think of that

lucid dagger
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Maybe if some footage is publicly available, you can use parts of if and highlight what was your job in the scene
Also if possible communicate with the former company about that.

marsh stream
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Hey guys just wanted to ask for some advice. I'm a Junior Game Designer that got my first break in the industry (at 26). Despite almost having 1 year of experience, I am constantly feeling:

  • Insecure: Constantly comparing myself to my peers, especially those in the same position as me but are 4-5 years younger with a much better education.
  • Insignificant: The designs I work on either mean nothing or no one cares about my designs.
  • The typical 'imposter syndrome': Constantly feeling like the black sheep of the department, feeling I am not pulling my weight or my designs aren't innovative/brilliant in anyway.

Working over time or learning more in my free time doesn't seem to help either. Any methods of eliminating this? Does it go away over time?

Apologies for the essay.

tidal moth
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I don't know your designs so I can't tell what's going on there. I think imposter syndrome is common though, and not just inside the games industry

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I hear a lot of people that go through it are able to beat it by faking it till they make it (as in, keep trying to think that they are good enough until they convince themselves)

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in the end, imposter syndrome isn't a reflection of reality, it's your own preconception of how you think things are

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as for feeling insignificant, I think it's easy to feel that way if you're a small cog in a big machine. a lot of studios aren't necessarily pushing better attitudes towards juniors, especially if people are already swamped with work. I can't tell if it can be anything else based on just what you've written so far

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as for the age difference: it doesn't matter. education isn't a big deal, and in many instances older people are often more mature, which usually reflects positively rather than negatively

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I've seen people at 35 being juniors and handle it well. don't stress over this

stuck holly
# marsh stream Hey guys just wanted to ask for some advice. I'm a Junior Game Designer that got...

I'm a SW Dev so things might be a bit different but I studied and worked in a different field for a couple years before I made the switch to SW dev so I can relate:

  • Insecure: It doesn't matter what education somebody has but what experience they bring to the table. Experience doesn't just mean in GameDesign but can also be cross-domain. Whatever you did before that must have taught you some fundamental things you can apply to anything in life. If you can't think of anything, think again. The fact you did something different before isn't a burden, it can be your advantage.
  • Insignificant: Make it significant! You can do that either by personally caring for a design you did (although that comes with pitfalls - emotional investment...). So something I like to do more is to focus on the process when I do things. For example try to focus on one small element of your design process and maybe do it a little different a little improved to how you've done it before. Keep track of these things and all of a sudden even though nobody might care about your designs they matter to you because you're improving your design process and your thought process.
barren lotus
# marsh stream Hey guys just wanted to ask for some advice. I'm a Junior Game Designer that got...

She's an actress but her powerful message can apply to all creative types: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc3bKzrz4D4

YouTube
60 Minutes
Viola Davis: All artists have “imposter syndrome”

The award-winning actress tells 60 Minutes how a healthy level self-doubt can be beneficial. https://cbsn.ws/2JHHLQH

Subscribe to the 60 Minutes Channel HERE: http://bit.ly/1S7CLRu
Watch Full Episodes of 60 Minutes HERE: http://cbsn.ws/1Qkjo1F
Get more 60 Minutes from 60 Minutes: Overtime HERE: http://cbsn.ws/1KG3sdr
Relive past episodes and in...

▶ Play video
lucid dagger
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nice one

covert basalt
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Hi, I need help with something. I am trying to apply to one of Epic's internships but my college is not listed in the the drop down options. I tried to look for an active email address where I could address this. But I am not finding anything. Is there something else I can do? Does anyone how I can contact the internship team at Epic?

hard zephyr
covert basalt
#

ty.

hard zephyr
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np, good luck!

marsh stream
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@tidal moth Yeah I guess I'll just keep going, and hopefully my brain will see enough evidence to believe I am sufficient. As for the age thing, I just have this terrible habit of thinking where I'll be in the future in comparison to my colleagues "okay at 30, I'll be Intermediate designer. But at 30 my colleagues will be senior designers." It just makes me feel I am destined to always be behind my junior colleagues. Thanks for your input btw : )
@stuck holly Yeah true, your last point especially is something I've never really thought about. I've always been focused on the end product and not on the process on getting to that end product...ways to improve and grow through this process. Definitely something I need to focus on! Thanks : )
@barren lotus Thanks for the vid! Pretty crazy to think even the most talented and experienced of artists can feel like an imposter...

tidal moth
# marsh stream <@!224571781862653952> Yeah I guess I'll just keep going, and hopefully my brain...

I used to do the same comparisons when I was younger, but you have to remember that this is all your own understanding of things and not reality.

there are no guarantees, and there's certainly people out there who take longer to get to a senior level than others. but that doesn't mean that those same people who started earlier will be able to reach that level as soon as you think. most people will plateau at some point.

keep your focus on yourself. see how you can improve. be curious and interested in the work of other, more senior designers. if you show that you listen to them, it should reflect in their behavior too. and in the end that is only going to reflect more positively on you.

narrow vigil
plucky hatch
# marsh stream Hey guys just wanted to ask for some advice. I'm a Junior Game Designer that got...

my dude. i am 31 and i am still looking for a game job. relax. comparison is the thief of all joy. you may not be as young but you still have more life experience. if your designs dont seem that great to anyone why not turn to some of them and ask them for a critique. let them tell you what's they think is wrong the designs. imposter syndrome I dunno about.never had a job where i had to worry about that sort of thing (yet). i might just be different, I dont foresee myself experiencing said syndrome. i know when i know things and know when i dont (and how to get an answer, generally).

#

i dont assume i know everything or that anyone else does either. if someone says you're stupid for not knowing something, thats their problem not yours. knowing nothing means you have room to grow.

royal lintel
shut token
royal lintel
#

lmao

astral harness
#

Thanks

#

My apologies im not a discord person #UE5isgreat

covert basalt
#

@narrow vigil I wanna give you a kiss so bad! TY!!!

vagrant brambleBOT
#

:triangular_flag_on_post: Kyle McCollum#4082 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

narrow vigil
#

Glad I could help. Best of luck to you!

covert basalt
#

so if an internships says as a qualification: Demonstrable strength in cpp.... Does knowing all the basics to linked lists and nodes, with a few basic applications enough demonstrable strength?

steady pewter
#

Nein.

last edge
#

Hey so, I'm pretty stuck on what to work on.

I really love game development, but based on what people have stated online, it's a bad field to do as a career. I was wondering, what do you guys think? Is there any strategy to doing game development as a stable/well-paying career, or is it mainly just bound to a hobbiest idea?

I mainly want to work in game dev because it's what Iike, but I hear that it's quite unstable and underpaying compared to other computer jobs, which is a major turn-away towards continue to study this field overall. I study game development cause it's an artform I enjoy doing, but I don't want to spend all my time studying it right now if I can spend that time on getting a stable job that'll support me doing game dev later on.

flat gazelle
#

Who are these people saying this?

#

It's a great career.

#

It's not an easy one however.

last edge
#

The easiness is not the hard part in my opinion, I'll get by, it's mainly the work environment and pay I'm worried about

#

I'm willing to dedicate my life into this as long as it's predicted to be a good job choice

#

Or at least if there's a way to plan out to make this a good job choice

#

But again, it's not the job, it's the fact that I love doing this. My only issue is that I want to know what to spend my time on now to support my goal in continuing this field. If it's a bad choice career wise, I could study something with a better chance of career and work on game dev as a hobby. If game dev is a relatively stable job, I'll gladly spend all my time now working and learning for it and obtain opportunities that way

#

I'm currently 18, in college, and am trying to figure out how to dedicate my time. Which is why I'm asking here, as people online and in person give very mixed answers on how to help. I was told to ask people who've worked in the field for their advice so here I am

flat gazelle
#

What does stable mean to you, and do you have examples from other industries you consider stable?

last edge
#

Sure thing, for instance data science is a field that has a lot of demand and also pays well. It's average starting pay is quite good as well (70-80k). It's determined to increase in pay rate over the upcoming years and it's definitely something that could be predicted as valuable for the next 20+ years. Almost any company requires it right now. That's a field I see as stable and growing.

flat gazelle
#

Ah, you can probably match that in games depending on what you specialise in. Stick to large established studios where there are clear and defined careerpaths.

last edge
#

Do you have any examples or ways I can find them? I'd love to know about these.

flat gazelle
#

Any of the big publishers have all of this established. EA, Ubisoft, Microsoft, Sony and so on. You can go smaller, but the smaller it gets the more ad-hoc careerprogression and roles becomes.

#

Basically, going indie is fun if you are doing it from pure passion and willing to take the high risk. Studio work is very unlikely to make you rich over night, but instead it's pretty stable and predictable.

last edge
#

Gotcha. Thank you so much!

proud spear
#

If you really feel like you want to do game dev, do it. And if you want to change careers later, that’s fine too. People very rarely stay in the same career for their whole lives.

#

I myself changed to game dev when I was 32

covert basalt
#

If an internships says as a qualification: Demonstrable strength in cpp.... Does knowing all the basics to linked lists and nodes, with a few basic applications enough demonstrable strength?

nova tartan
#

That's like 1st year comp sci it's really basic

#

What they really want to know is can you work in CPP and solve their problems with it
Have you hooked it up to a database?
What about networking?
Can you implement common data structures and algorithms in CPP
Do you have experience working in a professional software development environment, ie worked with other people collaboratively and professionally to accomplish something

#

Note that if you are good at this stuff it's an EXTREMELY valuable skillset

covert basalt
#

thank you for this answer

#

by database, do u mean csv files or similar?

nova tartan
#

usually that means SQL database

#

like if a game company asked you to work on their microtransaction system which involves customer information stored in a database

covert basalt
#

got u, what are some applications for networking that I should be looking for?

nova tartan
#

multiplayer game infrastructure, cloud services

#

one example might be

#

can you implement a matchmaking system that takes players and matches them according to their skill levels

#

or a quick match function that takes players from a pool of searching players and drops them in a 10 person FPS game

covert basalt
#

I can work with that. but that would be mostly for multiplayer? I am trying to get into rendering. Any specific applications, that might be helpful with multithreading?

nova tartan
#

oh yeah that can be just an entirely separate specialization

#

that's all computer graphics

#

do you know all the basic rendering algorithms

#

and math

#

matrices and vector geometry comes up a lot iirc

shut token
covert basalt
#

I am good with math, the rendering algo? Im looking into them

covert basalt
#

im insane...

nova tartan
#

expecting company systems to be sane will drive you insane

leaden flame
#

Hello everyone. I'm a 3D Character Animator and last year I made a simple mobile game in UE4. I'm pretty well rounded as a Generalist but animation is my specialty. If any of you have ideas of where I can find some work I'd really appreciate it. Here is my Generalist Reel for now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHtBPV_QIXk Thanks!

YouTube
Kevan Balmer
Kevan Balmer Demo Reel 2022

All images and audio by Kevan Balmer.
Made with: After Effects, Autodesk Maya, Unreal Engine 4, Adobe Photoshop, and Propellerhead Reason.

▶ Play video
steady pewter
plucky hatch
leaden flame
modern relic
#

Is it possible to transition into game dev as a career (as opposed to just a hobby) without qualifications? I have what I would consider a decent background in programming outside of gamedev but have no formal qualifications. I'm willing to bet any place worth its salt will accept sufficient experience, yet I don't really have much to show in the way of projects. Most of my projects are either long gone, or I don't have permission to make them public

spice dagger
#

Its certainly possible, in fact its more prevalent than you think. I have no doubt many here could attest to their entry into the games industry was done so without any form of qualification from an institution and they found their way on their own. Myself included.

proud spear
#

And myself as well

wary idol
steel creek
primal jetty
uncut arch
#

Do you guys think a games development bachelor/masters degree is equivalent to a computer science degree?

I've seen many jobs and always wondered, since it's technically technology and programming based, would it count?

proud spear
#

Usually degrees are less about the content you learn and more about the perception that employers have of your skills. If you don’t care or worry about their perceptions of you and your future hirability, then take the degree with classes that you are most interested in. Computer science is looked on as “more balanced” by other industries, where as if you had a game dev degree you might get some strange looks (though I think this is slowly changing as the older generations who never grew up with games are going into retirement)

#

In any case, your portfolio will be the determining factor for programming jobs. So I’d pick the degree which has the most interesting classes (just me personally)

uncut arch
#

yes definitely, a good portfolio will determine if you get in or not!

nova tartan
uncut arch
#

fair enough, your definitely right there.

waxen pumice
#

Hello

#

I am looking for a remote job on unreal engine , can anybody help me where to find it ?

steady pewter
waxen pumice
sage notch
#

Why not be a entrepreneur. You will be your own employee. If you have talent than start with a small studio. Like a game designer

plucky hatch
#

real talk. anyone ever get actionable jobs in their inbox? I always get jobs sent to me over either linkedin or through a job network for sh!t that isn't even remotely in my field. what about "computer scientist" screams "nurse practitioner"? or "recent college graduate" screams "senior java engineer" i feel like im being taunted 😦

serene crystal
#

Indeed is very awful about unspecific job results

#

I think you need to just use specific toolsets and languages as searches instead of "engineer" which has a thousand definitions

#

even though everyone knows what you mean when you say "computer engineer" the search engine will just apply it to those words individually and not really in context

plucky hatch
#

because people brag about being offered jobs in their field to me all the time. all ive ever gotten has been garbage like that

serene crystal
#

Aah, that makes sense

rugged vale
#

Does anyone know how can I find artists that work with revenue share contract?
Everyone is so negative about revenue shares🤦🏻‍♂️

#

I've tried the unpaid gigs channel btw
My question is more general
How can I get them to work with us, make them interested

wary idol
#

Most people avoid it because there is very little chance that they will actually get paid for their work especially if the project is still in early development, I mean there are exceptions ofc

#

Plus most people need money and can't afford to work for free

plucky hatch
# rugged vale Does anyone know how can I find artists that work with revenue share contract? E...

i hate to break it to you but revenue share is not attractive to anyone looking to make money or a living. profit sharing maybe. but not revenue share. game development is a lot like gambling, nobody really ever knows whats going to sell a lot of units. gta 5 being the biggest grossing game ever made but many other multimillion dollar projects barely broke even if at all. asking someone to work for revenue share is like saying "yea well pay you if we make any money" its the bottom of the barrel.

rugged vale
#

That's right
I need to find gamblers like me

#

We have a team of 5 tho

plucky hatch
#

however you could sweeten the deal. if you could provide training or teach things to make things more equal for both parties I think that would be more balanced. like an unpaid internship. look for some teenager who wants experience. im not saying a teenager wont know what theyre worth but someone very new to the industry might appreciate the opportunity for experience

rugged vale
#

Thank you for your advice

plucky hatch
#

not a problem

wary idol
#

I joined a project like that when I first started with UE, didn't earn anything but it was a valuable experience

rugged vale
plucky hatch
#

one thing though. make sure your project hits a mark. if this person you hire on goes on to bigger things they're gonna want to be able to show their experience was worth something. "yea i worked on a project with 5 other people, we sold 10,000 copies and generated X profit" would be a good thing for them to be able to say

#

im just saying dont quit before its done

wary idol
# rugged vale Like nothing? Or small amount of money

Nothing, it was revenue share
Each of us eventually found full time jobs (which is now my current job as a programmer) and kinda just stopped working on that project as we don't have time anymore

I don't regret it all tho

rugged vale
#

But wasn't working for yourself better?

#

In terms of your creativity and freedom

wary idol
#

It is nice if you are just starting out and want to gain experience or have extra free time you are willing to spend on it

But eventually you will need to make a living from something and working for free won't really be an option

plucky hatch
#

Its quite an in-demand job right now, so why settle for the unknown when you can actually get paid. But like others have said, if you can offer anything else of value (training etc) it’s a possible compromise.

pure kettle
#

The catch with rev share project / unpaid gigs from the perspective of the worker, is that they get no material incentives to commit to the project, and no real guarantee that it's going to paid off once the project's somehow came into fruition.

rugged vale
#

It's done indeed

rugged vale
rugged vale
#

Ah I just realized you said demo, you wanna play it?!

rugged vale
#

Can you criticize it a bit? This will help the development a lot
Like why isn't it enticing enough?

#

Thanks 🙏

tall solar
#

One of the main things I'd point out is player feel level polish. I'm not even playing it and it looks irritating in a couple of major spots. Two things jump out at me the most. One is the transition to ADS. Another is the little jump. Feels bad to fall from such a small height and get such an abrasive damage indicator. I think it's well made, but definitely prototype feel.

rugged vale
tidal moth
# rugged vale https://youtu.be/UFBVxAHcHAM

just dropping my 2 cents: the main thing is that the demo doesn't feel like a game, but a list of features. it's like there is no vision for it. it seems like there's not a cohesive player experience, and that you aren't showing anything other than "here's a bunch of things that are cool to do". what would the premise of the game be? how does the level design mesh with the systems design? how does the narrative affect any of this? why are you, as a player, doing any of the things that you do?

rugged vale
plucky hatch
#

I'm working on a draft letter to send to some professors I've found in TED. It's to talk about my material of calculus and linear algebra. I'm not sure if this is a waste of time. I do have intentions to get a job overseas and I was willing to not go straight into a game company because I have no background in game dev

tidal moth
#

it's not uncommon to have maths or physics majors join as junior or intern programmers

plucky hatch
#

I always liked level design but I have a feeling that I don't want to be an env artist

#

maybe a technical artist

#

I believe that by having the foundations in math I could go learn AI

tidal moth
nova tartan
#

from what I've been told technical artist is not an entry level position, but something you move into after you have experience in related areas technical artists try and bridge

flat gazelle
#

There are entry level Tech Artists.

#

But they need to be part of a Tech Art team.

#

solo ta is not a junior role

plucky hatch
#

I know that there is a lot of research on AI, automatic content generation, GPU programming, etc. but I don't know if I'm ever going that way.

steel creek
#

Irony is there's not a lot of math in current AI. It's just Brute Force weight adjustment based on averages

plucky hatch
#

I know there is when there is physics, collisions, reflections, etc.

#

all models are simplified because it has to be fast, compute many times per sec

green saddle
#

? AI as in deep learning? How is that “not a lot” of math?

pure kettle
#

And yeah, NPC behaviour is more of a matter of weighted set of action.

mystic cloud
#

If you are anxious about math knowledge, vector math and linear algebra is ones you need to focus first from what I can see from the people I know

vagrant brambleBOT
#

:triangular_flag_on_post: DeadEagle#9730 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

kindred sand
#

I work in unreal engine and unity i make shaders for fun, do you guys think there is many careers in this field?? I am very curious

pure kettle
kindred sand
#

Cool i want to learn more do you have any advice

pure kettle
kindred sand
#

Okay cook

#

L

#

unreal 👍

flat gazelle
craggy orchid
#

Do people Get hired with just blueprint experience? Or should I learn C++?

pastel estuary
#

yes, and if you want to.

idle maple
tidal moth
craggy orchid
idle maple
#

At our studio our designers and technical artists uses BP heavily

craggy orchid
idle maple
#

For example a tech artist on my team is prototyping the day/night system

#

Both how it works in BP and visually, two birds, one stone

#

Then one can just convert it to c++ later

craggy orchid
#

@idle maple
Thanks for the info! Did not know that an artist is sometimes responsible for things other than art (like programming day/night system)

idle maple
#

But it’s working great for us

#

We have snow deformation in our game and one of our artists set the landscape material and deformation logic up

#

One more example where other deparment jump in to assist

#

And it’s all done in BP for now, and it’s quite fast surprisingly. Sometimes we deform over 50 objects at the same time

#

Lots of things to check every tick

craggy orchid
idle maple
#

I don’t even know honestly. Haven’t been in that system yet 😛

craggy orchid
idle maple
#

It’s a bit scary to change variables/structs and stuff, then magically stuff works and sometimes it doesn’t and crashes

craggy orchid
idle maple
#

I do most of my work in c++ and usually blueprints for widgets and stuff.

#

This might not be the appropriate channel

craggy orchid
#

Well, I will stop it here then

#

Thanks again for all the info 👍 I appreciate it.

idle maple
#

Just DM if you have any more questions or something

sudden yarrow
#

Hi im working up on publishing a game to put up as a portfolio piece, it takes a lot of time and effort and i want to break in with a career in gameplay programming. Do i still have to do the usual leetcode grind or are studios focused on engine/game dev related concepts?

spice dagger
#

@hidden river Naming and shaming is against our #rules

#

If you have an issue with another member of the community bring it to a Moderator in a DM

plucky hatch
#

I'm new to both Unreal and Blender, but I've made significant progress and I'd like to form a team to help me with my game I have in mind

pure kettle
midnight radish
#

hi I'm working on a game and I can't find attach component and i use attach component to actor but its don't work with me . why i can't find attach component ? how i can find attach component ? and thanks

pure kettle
undone eagle
#

Studios really have one focus: Get the game done and according to the vision/quality desired

#

as long as it runs smoothly on target devices and is readable: not much of an issue

#

basically:
if you focus too much on game dev concepts but not algorithms: you will struggle with certain aspects (like optimization or solving certain problems)

if you focus too much on leetcode but not game dev concepts: you will struggle with game stuff

The correct answer is a balance in between. The actual amounts differ between studios but yeah, you kinda need both.

sudden yarrow
#

Feels like the good balance is being comfortable with medium problems. Then work on a project thats atleast 2 months of quality work.

scenic schooner
#

Hay so im a 14 year old game dev and I have been trying to get my career going for a long time and I just dont know how to does anyone have tips on what to do

pure kettle
#

That is if you want to work with someone else. Usually studios can't recruit underages, so you have some free time to "git gud".

Of course you can still release your own prods at the age of 14+.

#

Look into joining game jams to make up your gamedev portfolio, and if you have the specs and guts, you can join the competitive jams as well.

dire bough
#

So I'm about 9 months out from graduation, but had a question. I'm studying game design and was looking at a junior position at a company, but they're looking for "Experience creating numerical designs and modeling their impact on gameplay or combat" Problem. my college has focused more on the art side of things and I honestly haven't even heard of "Numerical designs" wtf are they on about and where can I learn more about them and practice them?

steady pewter
#

lol, game design is so frequently mistaken for modelling props or doing art

scenic schooner
#

fr

oblique ice
dire bough
#

Game Design is a fairly broad term, but unfortunately there's no better term for "Designing gameplay systems" There is "Level Design" but that often gets confused with "Environment design"

steady pewter
#

Game design is more than gameplay design or level design

plucky hatch
craggy nacelle
#

I started programming around that age and never really thought about oh I should do X or Y for career... I just did X or Y because I thought it was interesting or fun

#

Worked out fine, got job as programmer as an adult as soon as I felt like it :P

#

Hell I didn't even think about doing it for work at 14, I just found it interesting so that's why I did it ¯_(ツ)_/¯

dire bough
# steady pewter Game design is more than gameplay design or level design

My point being, I'd very much like to learn whatever "numerical design" is, because I'm not interested in the modeling. I can do it if you point a gun at my head, but I'd rather not. Art is not my forte, but design and project management is, however, I only have a singular gameplay design class under my belt and the fourth edition of Game Design Workshop by Tracy Fullerton. I feel extremely unprepared despite having gone through a full course study and would like to know if there are any resources. Interaction loops, prototyping, player psychology, I'm familiar with all of this, but "numerical design" is a completely alien term for me and google is coming up blank.

flat gazelle
#

Open up an excel doc, use it to balance all the systems in a game. Done 😄

dire bough
#

unsure if serious because that sounds too easy 😅

flat gazelle
#

Then you'll be fine

echo kite
#

hello

tidal moth
#

numerical design modeled on combat sounds like a fancy way of saying balance math formulas in combat to work well (combat being a system)

#

also "modeling" and a "model" is not the same thing. game design will often work with the concept of a model of a system tweaked to the context that it is used in

#

that is not the same as a mesh created by artists

tidal moth
versed fractal
# dire bough My point being, I'd very much like to learn whatever "numerical design" is, beca...

Understanding your target player experience and how tuning (e.g. combat balance, reward economy, enemy damage) helps you deliver that experience is the real goal of that kind of design. There are many ways to do that and being familiar with most of those skills are a good place to start as a designer - spreadsheets, data analysis, playtesting, feedbacking, etc. Each studio has their own culture for design and collaboration and some are more data-driven (e.g. most mobile studios) and some are more experience-driven (e.g. most AAA studios). When hiring junior designers, I'm mostly looking for someone who is interested in learning and open to collaboration more than someone who already brings the exact skillset we need - this is different for every studio and hiring manager, but I recommend not being too worried if you don't feel you cover 100% of what they're looking for in a role, just as long as you show an interest in learning how to do it.

ionic rose
#

Any other companies having trouble finding quality UE candidates?

flat gazelle
#

Ue?

#

You mean ux?

ionic rose
#

Unreal Engine?

flat gazelle
#

Sure, but what role

ionic rose
#

engineer

flat gazelle
#

Again what role?

ionic rose
#

mid, senior, principal

flat gazelle
#

Are we tslking ai, network, rendering, gameplay?

ionic rose
#

What company is going to have a principal engineer dedicated to one aspect of game dev?

flat gazelle
#

Most?

#

I would not want a gameplay coder touching rendercode

#

Or are you talking small indie?

ionic rose
#

When does small indie become big indie?

flat gazelle
#

When they have specialized roles :p

#

But to answer your question, I don't know the world of generalists. But I know we've had some trouble picking up render people.

cyan arch
#

Hey I have a question for everyone - I don't know if this is the appropriate space.

#

I want to apply for copyrights with Legalzoom. Says I need to send my work on a flash drive to their copyright office. Can someone who's successfully done this process walk me through it?

tidal moth
neat shadow
#

Good morning 🌞! I have a technical interview with a medium/big gaming company for one hour regarding a developer position (c++/UE). I have a 15 years background in development but not in games.
How do you reckon the interview might go/should expect from them ?

#

Thanks :)

#

That's my first interview for this kind of role in gaming, and I have around a year in UE dev

vagrant brambleBOT
#

:triangular_flag_on_post: 280I#0981 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

ionic rose
neat shadow
#

Thanks 🙂

shut token
nova tartan
#

That's the big one
If you aren't offering 200k+ you are probably not competitive for senior software developers compared to FANG etc

ionic rose
flat gazelle
#

I'm not hiring engineers, but we are quite happy to pay for seniors but extremely few apply.

#

As comparison, Spotify is across the street and according to Glassdoor I out earn their average senior engineers.

#

I have no idea if they pay well or not.

#

But I think we pay the second best in the city in games. Hard to go toe to toe with Epic if they really want someone...

ionic rose
#

What do you guys pay for senior?

flat gazelle
#

Depends on the number of years experience. We don't do titles.

ionic rose
#

so like 7ishh

flat gazelle
#

Dunno. I haven't hired any mid levels like that yet at this company.

#

But the actual numbers aren't really relevant as that depends on location.

ionic rose
#

you say you think you pay second best in the city, what does that number look like for average roles?

flat gazelle
#

Here in Stockholm, you'd probably need to be looking at fintech to have a serious step up from us.

#

For me it's almost twice what DICE paid.

#

Ubi outpaid dice by about 20%

#

Then coming here added another 30%

ionic rose
#

I feel like I'm in salary negotiations where no one wants to go first. Can you give an actual number rather than percents?

flat gazelle
#

Are you in stockholm?

ionic rose
#

no

#

usa

flat gazelle
#

Then what does the number matter?

ionic rose
#

Curiosity's sake?

flat gazelle
#

Does your number include 30 days vacation, free healthcare, unlimited sickdays, free education etc?

#

If it doesn't it's apples and oranges

ionic rose
#

I don't understand why you're so defensive about giving a number. I have no idea what the cost of living is like in stockholm in general.

pastel estuary
#

i wouldnt mention what I pay my employees in public, as competition can use that against you.

flat gazelle
#

Here's a pretty good summary of averages

pastel estuary
#

and there might be people with same role that get paid more/less, that is all related to negotiations

ionic rose
#

That link is very helpful, thank you

#

these numbers for US seem extremely low though

#

Senior UE4 engineer 50k?

steady pewter
#

I never considered game devs being paid well.

ionic rose
#

but then it says Mid-level in US is $70k

#

ah i guess the senior one is across all countries

#

even 70 for mid seems low. maybe we're at the high end

shut token
#

Yes. Gamedev typically pays less than enterprise software.

ionic rose
#

Yea I realize that

#

I was just comparing what we pay to these numbers

flat gazelle
#

Keep in mind that even within the US there are huge differences. If the people in the survey were mostly from the bay area, it would seem super high to the people basically anywhere else. Same if the opposite is true.

#

Salary comparisons outside a single city is very close to pointless. Comapring between countries, is completely useless.

ionic rose
#

I disagree with outside a single city where basically everything in the US went remote

flat gazelle
#

Ok!

tidal moth
#

I've heard it being said that cutting a US salary in half is the rough equivalence of a european salary but I'm not sure how true this holds

#

(this may be biased towards CA and the west coast especially however)

green oyster
#

Is that for gross or net numbers? here we only ever talk about net in all aspects, the employer pays the taxes

trim pasture
# ionic rose Senior UE4 engineer 50k?

Depends where but that's in pound sterlings, where it also shows the mid level programming in the US is about 70k pound sterling, which would be about 116k here in the Canada.

ionic rose
#

True, I guess pounds have diverged a bit more than I remembered

versed fractal
#

@ionic rose What city? Most larger studios in the US are still paying similar with remote jobs. Higher end markets (e.g. Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle) are all going to be way above average for any role, especially senior engineer.

ionic rose
versed fractal
ionic rose
#

Imagine not working fully remote now-a-days lmao

flat gazelle
#

You've got my curiosity, what games are you guys dropping? Anything I've played?

ionic rose
#

https://store.steampowered.com/app/824270/KovaaKs/

Steam
KovaaK's

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flat gazelle
#

Ah, yeah that checks out. Nice

ionic rose
#

but we need more UE devs 😦

tidal moth
green saddle
#

Salary negotiation should be the last thing on your mind lol

#

Anything CS related is oversaturated af

craggy nacelle
#

people say it's oversaturated, and people say the demand is higher than ever ¯_(ツ)_/¯

steady pewter
#

Both? We have troubles finding experienced personnel.

serene crystal
#

demand for experienced people = high

#

not so much for newbies

tired ginkgo
#

How experience is considered good?

plucky hatch
tidal moth
shut token
#

Refusal to invest in people = very high as well.

steady pewter
#

You can invest so much, at some point you need the work done.
If you have juniors you are not only investing in them, but also dedicate other people to teach them.

#

So, it is a business decision.

shut token
#

Yeah, and it leads to the situation we have now. Everyone wants seniors, but there are not enough seniors and people don't want to pay senior prices.

tidal moth
shut token
#

Yeah - obviously it takes time & money. If your production relies on seniors, but you can't find seniors - then you should adjust accordingly.

tidal moth
#

sometimes you can't adjust and you're forced to work with what you have

#

play the hand you're dealt etc.

steady pewter
#

Business adjust of course. There is a big reason why so much is outsourced. We even have almost permanent outsources, lol.

#

When you start managing a project you start to realise other factors. Juniors are fine, but not always the solution you need.

craggy nacelle
#

It's a problem on the employer side as well tbh

#

Many folks these days have a mentality of using job hopping as a means to increase income, which is problematic when people stay for 6-12 months

#

At the same time they demand high salaries and all kinds of things

steady pewter
#

It always stroke me how game devs are like bunnies, hopping each other month/year to a new place.

#

On other hand, there are some old trunks around who are for 15y+

tidal moth
craggy nacelle
#

Yeah

pure kettle
steady pewter
#

Not really.

#

But yeah, there is such trend.

craggy nacelle
#

Like yeah we'd love to pay our employees more but it's pretty tough as a small startup (we're not in the gaming space, but still).... we have a good core team and got kinda lucky at having them I guess, but it's difficult to find people that can add to it

#

Like I could probably double my own comp at a big company ¯_(ツ)_/¯

flat gazelle
#

Investing in juniors is also a risk as some people are just shit, and no anount of mentoring will fix it. The money people do not like risk.

trim pasture
#

Another side to it all is you have to have teams that actually get along. Sure you can put a bunch of talented experienced people together, but if they hate each other things fall apart.

Still, people with experience don't grow on tree's. Now lets take Hidetaka Miyazaki. He was an accountant I think, but decided to go into gaming I think after playing Ico. From Software was the only company willing to hire him despite his lack of experience in the industry.

Now we have the entire Souls sub-genre. From a game Sony just wanted to push out, hated, and had zero marketing for.

tidal moth
#

I don't think the example of one dude with no experience standing out is going to make the argument that experience doesn't matter. even when picking juniors we do look for potential, I can't imagine it being any different with any other company.

#

also worth pointing out that Miyazaki's first game wasn't dark souls either

trim pasture
#

No, but the point is at some point someone has to enter without any experience. He's just a prominent example. Otherwise...... where to people with experience come from? And it can be similar in many other industries.

flat gazelle
#

Was he inexperienced though?

trim pasture
#

Before fromsoftware? Yeah, he was an accountant I believe.

flat gazelle
#

Compare his job before From Software, with his first job there.

#

Account manager -> Planner.

#

So production/planning on both sides.

#

He didn't exactly join as a junior designer.

tidal moth
#

well "planner" is game designer in japan

flat gazelle
#

I see!

royal lintel
#

And for every Miyazaki... how many times do you think companies took chances on people like that and then it didn't work out? You're talking about incredibly rare circumstances where someone happens to do well despite inexperience.
And no, not everyone needs to start from zero. Whether it's college or studying stuff independently, someone who at least shows that they can design games on their own time is a safer bet than a random accountant. You also have to remember that the time at which Miyazaki entered the field things were less established, and designers from weird backgrounds were much more common.

tidal moth
#

I was going to mention that, here's from the wiki:

Upon learning about what later became Demon's Souls, Miyazaki became excited at the prospect of a fantasy action role-playing game and offered to help.[1] The project, up until he was assigned to it, was considered a failure by the company. He believed the company's outlook on the game allowed him to take full control of the project as any further failed ideas would not hurt it.

shut token
#

Yeah - but that's the thing; companies are still unwilling to hire juniors even if they do have multiple years of self-study or w/e.

#

It's a complete shitshow up and down the ladder and there are always risks. Business in of itself is a major risk; especially in a creative field

tidal moth
#

After the release and success of the game's spiritual successor Dark Souls in 2011, Miyazaki was promoted to the position of company president in May 2014.[5][6] It was considered unprecedented for a person to change careers in Japan and become company president within 10 years.[1]
it's really exception after exception

trim pasture
#

Sure but......where is experience supposed to come from? If everyone's going after people with experience....well that explains all the job hopping. That doesn't mean go to the other extreme and hire anyone just because. Like jesus lol

royal lintel
#

Design is a somewhat oversaturated field. Companies don't foster junior talent because there's no need currently.

#

Why would they take a chance on someone with no experience when they're already taking big risks by being in games in the first place? There are plenty of designers with at least some experience that they can pull from instead, at least for now.

tidal moth
#

I think art is more oversaturated than design, but I'm looking at it from a point of level design. I don't know the numbers for game/systems design

shut token
#

Not to mention the interview process is a complete and utter joke for the most part (at least programming)

royal lintel
#

I agree that art is more oversaturated, but that doesn't change anything.

flat gazelle
#

Parts of art.

#

Make a decent FX portfolio and you will struggle to stay unemployed.

#

Same thing in Tech Art

royal lintel
#

Yes, certain parts are definitely way more oversaturated than others. Higher level positions and FX absolutely have better times.

tidal moth
royal lintel
#

And software engineering (in tech, not games specifically) is not an area with the problem of companies not fostering junior talent.

craggy nacelle
#

what even is leetcode

shut token
tidal moth
#

but I'll say I've seen it from both sides: I've had trouble even finding good LD junior talent. and I've been lucky with some juniors being actual diamonds in the rough as well. I even try to encourage failed candidates with feedback on many occasions

royal lintel
#

I'm mentioning it because software engineers have an easier path to getting experience since they don't have to start in games. Designers don't have as many options.

#

Game studios do tend to ignore non-games experience, but it's still more than most junior designers can say.

tidal moth
flat gazelle
#

I'm hiring a senior FX artist at the moment which is impossible. However, the situation is such that if we take on a junior to train up to the level needed, we won't ship. So it's less risk waiting for a good applicant and pushing the problem further ahead where there is more planning wiggle room.

royal lintel
tidal moth
#

that's fair

tidal moth
flat gazelle
#

If we had the bandwidth to train a junior, while shipping. It would be a no brainer.

#

Way cheaper.

royal lintel
flat gazelle
#

Hehe, the only solace I get is that none of the studios in the city are getting any good applications 😄 We all know eachother and we're all as frustrated.

tidal moth
#

misery loves company

flat gazelle
#

But there's also a potential bar. You can look at a portfolio and say, yeah this just needs a bit of guidance and a few months of practice to start being a net positive, or you can see that it's years from being worth it.

trim pasture
royal lintel
#

Working on something that might not even make it to market is a risk.

trim pasture
#

......okay

royal lintel
#

Why would you hire someone who eats up your budget and can't massively contribute to your projects when you don't even have the security of funding from a publisher?

#

Even once you do have funding from a publisher, unless they're funding you way over what you need then you might still not have the cash to hire juniors when you need people who actively contribute to getting the game out the door.

tidal moth
trim pasture
trim pasture
royal lintel
#

The big studios don't want to. Why bother when the job market is oversaturated? Maybe not for senior positions, but mid-level.

#

Some internships exist at least, but those tend to be few and far between.

tidal moth
trim pasture
royal lintel
#

The market for junior positions is shit. I'm giving a possible explanation for why. I'm not telling you why you shouldn't hire juniors - if you think a studio is in a secure enough position to hire a bunch of juniors and train them then go for it, the more power to you.

trim pasture
#

That's also the other extreme. I'm just trying to say you know... a balanced approach isn't a bad idea. Doesn't mean fill everything with juniors.

royal lintel
#

Again, I'm not saying what studios should or shouldn't be doing. I'm giving an explanation for how they think.

flat gazelle
#

Out of curiosity Joe, have you trained many juniors/interns?

tidal moth
#

no offense but that just comes off as condescending. it's not like companies aren't already trying to balance their approach. nobody is going to be like "f juniors"

trim pasture
#

Nope, but yeah I have helped alot of people with their problems, so I can certainly attest to the fact that most people aren't worth the time to invest nevermind the money

flat gazelle
#

Got it

stuck holly
#

There has been like an 6h discussion on why it's hard for juniors. But how is a junior even defined?
I haven't dealt with the "junior" title yet. Every job I got (worked in multiple industries) was just either you got in or you didn't. If you got in then you were just a regular engineer without a specific title
I guess the root of the issue is that the knowledge people get before entering the job market is actually not enough to really be useful in the job market. So it could be an issue with education. Either schools not teaching their students what the job market needs or self-taught people never make it far enough.

flat gazelle
#

A junior is someone with little experience. Usually below three years in the industry. It can be called entrylevel as well. It doesn't have a requirement for professional experience, but there's still expectations on them.

royal lintel
#

^
Titles aren't standardized anywhere, so we're just talking about people new to the industry.

#

There's no such thing as a "junior" position where I work either, it's just "Software Engineer I" or "Designer I". Or intern I guess, for someone not even working as a full FTE.

flat gazelle
#

However, the lack of experience means that they require mentoring which makes them less beneficial to companies which in turn makes it harder to find companies looking for juniors.

stuck holly
#

But what's "new". I mean if I'd make a couple games release them on steam with some success although not enough to pay the bills but also not zero. Next, I'd apply for a job, would that still qualify as "junior"?

royal lintel
#

"it depends"

flat gazelle
#

Maybe.

royal lintel
#

there's no standard here

#

it really depends on how well you can pitch yourself, how experienced you really are, and what you can negotiate.

flat gazelle
#

If you've shipped games at some sort of quality, you are likely no longer a junior.

stuck holly
#

So let's say there is an issue with education, which means you're not prepared for the job market when you "finish" (either school or self-taught). Then your best bet would be to make a couple games and release those so you'd also have a portfolio to show, right?

flat gazelle
#

Yes

#

Most gamedev education is trash and outdated.

stuck holly
#

However, that leads to another interesting question. Say you're an artist or a programmer. None of those can create a game alone. So when you try to create your game for the portfolio, you either have to learn the whole pipeline by yourself to some degree (will probably come in handy when applying anyway) or you need some team.
So, the idea to join gamejams would be one option. However, I doubt that something developed during a gamejam would be of high enough quality to show it in a portfolio or to release it on steam and have some mediocre success.
Which means you either have to find a team for the long-term (could be hard). Or you need to learn the whole pipeline at least at a basic level yourself.
Does my reasoning make sense here?

flat gazelle
#

Ish.

#

You don't need to make games to build a portfolio.

#

As an artist you can build a hireable portfolio without shipping a game.

#

No problem.

#

Gamejams could be seen as experience. Not supervaluable though.

stuck holly
#

Hmm yeah I agree, that's possible. The reasoning to make games is that there might be some things you can only learn if you go all the way. e.g. if you just mess around and create pretty pictures as a self-taught artist then it might never occur to you that poly count is such an issue in most game engines. (very simple example)

flat gazelle
#

And those things are usually taught to a junior, which is why it's an investment for the company to take them on.

#

That said, basics are expected even from juniors.

stuck holly
#

Hmm yeah, I guess there's no ideal way to go. I guess best is to just do what you can and then apply when you think you're ready then rinse and repeat 🙂

tidal moth
tidal moth
stuck holly
# tidal moth you can have assets or scenes that you can show off as an artist; they don't hav...

Yeah, that works if you're solely trying to build a portfolio. But let's say the job market has shown you that you aren't employable yet and don't know why. The conversation above felt a bit like that to me. That some people want to enter the market, have prepared themselves, however they found the door shut and don't know why or how to improve. That might be just my interpretation though.

tidal moth
# stuck holly Yeah, that works if you're solely trying to build a portfolio. But let's say the...

when employers are hiring, they are hiring for a role. people that apply are expected to represent that role as best possible. that means if someone applies as a game designer, I'd expect to see game designs (systems, mechanics, features) from them. if someone applies as an environment artist, I'd expect to see environmental scenes and assets from them. the onus is on the applicant to understand the role they want to perform, and what it takes to perform such role.

#

crucially this is all shown in a portfolio as the first point of entry

stuck holly
#

Absolutely. In the end it's the job market that decides what skills are needed.

tidal moth
#

yeah but it's not just about "skills". it's about what the role does

#

I think that's an important distinction

#

you can have some skill in doing a little bit of each, but that's of no use to a potential employer. you want to commit fully to the role because you are going to be part of a team that has responsibilities based on that role

stuck holly
tidal moth
#

for any level, yes. even the act of showing that you've committed to only one role also shows that you are serious about what you do.

stuck holly
#

Had to think a bit about this one. I think I'd generally agree. However, I think there's also a point where you're competent enough that you can fulfill your role and also cover additional ground which is outside of your employed role. I think that when you do that it's generally appreciated by employers. e.g. thinking cross domain etc.
Well, at least that's my experience in my career :). Might be different for other people though.

tidal moth
#

before reaching that level however, I'd strongly recommend just focusing on becoming proficient in a single role/discipline. it's very easy to muddy the waters, especially at a junior level.

stuck holly
# tidal moth I don't know your career. generally you only start branching out a bit once you'...

I'm working in the SW field atm, so it might also vary a bit by industry. For example in SW there are different roles vor development and dev ops, could be that roles in the games industry differ more or are more clearly defined.
The second comment is probably good advice for me :). Although, I'll probably ignore it for now because currently I'm just doing this for fun, but if I want to get serious then I have to decide for one specific role/field.

flat gazelle
#

I'm pretty good at what I do, I think I could dabble in the easier parts of Tech art, but not much more than that. But I wouldn't say I'm good enough to branch out to any role but mine yet.

stuck holly
flat gazelle
#

Indeed

stuck holly
#

Like that saying (not sure if I remember it correclty): a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in an ocean - something like that

placid frost
#

hello, reading all of this makes me wonder. I'm currently an embedded software engineer and I'm looking to get a master in cybersecurity to complete my profile and try to get jobs in embedded cybersecurity so that I have well paid B career plan. In the meantime I'm learning to develop games by making my own like most of us and plan to ship my own games in 2 to 3 years. My goal is that in the meantime I'll get more experience as sw eng and if my game works, well great I won't have to worry, but in the most likely case my game doesn't, I'll have game dev experience to jump industry and apply as a game programmer. To me this seems like a reasonable plan but will I be seen as a full on novice in the industry or will my sw experience carry on ? (I work in C/C++ and wants to apply as an unreal engine game programmer)

#

(also complete other question that went through my mind, is someone with cybersecurity and software experience a profile that might be interesting in the game industry ? As a consultant or maybe developing anti-cheat solutions)

#

I do not know anybody in the game industry yet, hence my maybe obvious questions but not so obvious for me

placid frost
#

yaay lol as a selft taught I went out of ly way to get a degree to get passed through hr bs and now my experience will too ? you gotta love it ^^

#

damn, that's amazing how some hr are incompetent at hiring

#

yeah I have the same policy regarding head hunters as well

#

they usualy try to get you a salary as low as possible because they get bonuses when they manage to save their client's money anyway

#

usually best to avoid

#

rip 😦

#

the game industry seems drastically different from other sw industry from what I can hear

#

well, looks like getting a b plan was a good idea, it will give me more time to try and find nice companies to work with

plucky hatch
placid frost
#

By enterprise, you mean bigger studios ?

plucky hatch
#

No I mean making experiences and solutions for Enterprise clients like IKEA and Volvo and other OEM’s, engineering companies, product development, architecture and real estate, fashion etc etc .

placid frost
#

Ooooh ok I see what you mean

#

I can see myself do this, but the reason I want to join the game industry is because I'm at a point in my life where I just want to work with ppl I can relate to and have fun with. since I'm way involved in gaming since as far as I can remember, I best do that with ppl from the gaming sphere. I obviously also love making games, but the environment is realy what I look for, because games or not, in my eyes sw engineering is sw engineering no matter the product. So I could go for a company like the one you describes, but I'd need to have a realy good first contact with the team first.

#

if it makes sense

tidal moth
#

corporate anything is always going to pay more, but you lose out on the cool challenges you get to work on in games IMO

plucky hatch
placid frost
#

If it were only a salary question, I'd definitely keep working towards cybersecurity

tidal moth
#

not discounting that it can be an interesting experience, but I wouldn't classify it as the same as making games

plucky hatch
#

No, actually it was a product to test the design of the vehicle and new components, not something that’s a sales tool for the public ( softly these things are internal only for the design and engineering teams)My point was that while it is only a simulator, it was quite groundbreaking and a lot of the tech had never been used before, so lots of new challenges.. That’s why I said in my experience, it’s all subjective. For me at least those things are more fun than working on commercial games at least.

tidal moth
#

my point was more that it is a trade off. you either pick more money or you pick more freedom, in the sense of what kind of challenges you can get to experience. making a product to spec will always be different than having the freedom to reconsider how the spec should be laid out.

#

in bigger studios you would also generally earn more than in smaller studios (or have better job security, at least), but at the cost of potential creative freedom of a smaller indie studio.

#

it's a spectrum and it's about where one feels comfortable on that spectrum. I don't think universally there's one spot that is "better"

plucky hatch
#

I am lucky now in my position as Creative Director, I just do all the fun stuff and assign the boring jobs to other people 😂

royal lintel
#

It's all about where you're willing to make concessions. At a large studio you might lose out on overall control over what you're building, but if you're on a smaller team within that studio you might have a lot of freedom within a very specific area.
I have zero control over the games I work on, but I have quite a bit of freedom within the small team I'm on to engineer things how I want and I have decent control over what projects I work on provided they align with the team's overall goals. What that looks like will of course vary depending on team and profession, but it's not as if you have to be a cog in a machine at a large studio.

limpid dew
#

Hey I want to get into C++ after working in Blueprints/3D for Years - are there any Courses/Bootcamps like this for Programming ( C++ and Unreal in particular) ? Couldn't find much outside of prerecorded Courses. https://www.vertexschool.com/bootcamps

Bootcamps

A library of our top bootcamps covering the key skillsets necessary for a career in games, film, XR and the metaverse. Vertex School. Online Learning. Professional Feedback.

chilly sundial
#

The way i learnt c++ that worked for me, was completing an online course on the basics, something like sololearn, then trying to make some basic console apps

From there i picked up SFML for 2d, just from reading the documentation, and looking at the various maths and formulas needed for a 2d game

And from there unreals api isnt that hard to use, again just using documentation occasionally

#

Im not sure of any good paid bootcamps as such, but you can start learning c++ for free fairly easily

placid frost
#

yeah I wouldn't and didn't pay either

oblique ice
#

i learned C++ from learn.unreal and just documentation from VS

chilly sundial
#

Yeah personally SFML and using things like SQLite really helped me grasp the use of pointers which was my main struggle beforehand

pure kettle
#

I learned C++ from some programming website.
I forgot what it was, it was around 2008/2009

chilly sundial
#

SFML also really helped my understanding of OOP

pure kettle
#

And it's baffling that I'm still not a pro at C++ even with learning since 2008

#

(though I was 9 years old at the time, and I lost access to computers for the remainder of first half of 2010s)

oblique ice
#

no worries, i've been doing 3D for long i can remember, i still feel strange sometimes all because new specialise programme are introduced O____o

pure kettle
#

I'd say the same, though in my case it was web development, and I have hard time learning it by the course.

#

Or I guess web dev in general is not for me

plucky hatch
#

If I go to another country, should I be worried about taxes? I mean, some states or countries have taxes which are way higher than in other places.

spice dagger
#

Well yeah... If you work in another Country, pretty sure they will want you to pay taxes lol

green oyster
#

Also depends on your residency or citizenship, even EU or non-EU. At least here it's a gigantic mess to have residency in another country and work here. A ton of forms to complete and income to declare

plucky hatch
silk token
#

If you're moving for a specific job, make sure to ask for a relocation package

craggy nacelle
#

The US tax thing is a bit of a faff. Americans actually pay a lot more taxes and tax-like-things (things funded from taxes in other countries, but called an insurance or something else in the US which while not required by law is often mandatory because without it you may end up really screwed) than they realize because it's not pointed out so clearly

#

Which makes it harder to compare the tax rates apples for apples, but makes it easy to say that european countries have high taxes therefore bad :P

#

I'm in Finland myself which is comparatively high taxed and lower salary, but quality of living here is good

marsh stream
#

I'm a designer atm but really want to dive deeper into C++ in Unreal. I'm making small mini-projects to tackle certain topics/tools.
Would it be inappropriate to ask programmer colleague that I trust at the company to review (& provide feedback) the games' code and offer some kind of compensation for doing so?

round radish
#

Don't see why it would be?

craggy nacelle
#

Would you be offended if someone asked your feedback on something you know a lot about? :)

#

Most programmers will talk about programming to anyone willing to listen lol

round radish
#

I mean, it could be the angle that you shouldn't ask co-workers for help for a potentially competing product... but that doesn't seem the case.

craggy nacelle
#

Yeah

tidal moth
#

perhaps a better approach would be to ask about it and see if they are willing to help out. and then perhaps give them a box of something as a gift for helping out

craggy nacelle
#

I read that as "a box or something" and I'm like what are they, a cat? alex

tidal moth
#

just an empty crate really, anyone can appreciate that

round radish
#

My cat would be totally happy receiving a box for helping out.

#

I'm not sure what she could help with, though...

craggy nacelle
#

Dropping things off a table?

round radish
#

Making holes in clothing and scratches on wood seems to be her forte.

hazy idol
#

Hi guys! I'm new here! I need some advice! I want to get a job as an Unreal Engine Programmer but I don’t know how to get started. I have 2 years of experience, I worked with my brother but that job ceased. Do I need a portfolio even if I don't have a game released? Please advise where to start or if you can get specific help, thank you very much!

round radish
#

There's a ton of people advertising in the jobs boards here.

#

Common interview questions tend to be about sorting algorithms nad shit.

#

And if you don't have a relevant degree, you'll definitely need a strong portfolio,.

hazy idol
#

Thanks your answer! What does a strong portfolio contain? I only worked on one architectural project, my experience in the game industry is only with my own project.

round radish
#

Good question!

pure kettle
round radish
#

Basically just put together what you've done.

#

If you don't think it's enough, get smaller jobs to build it up.

#

There's no harm in applying for a job you don't think you'll get - if anything you'll learn the kind of things you will need to successfully get that job.

pure kettle
#

Though don't fixate to just one company - there's always greener pasture, even though it doesn't seem like it

hazy idol
#

Another question: How is a portfolio structured? Youtube channel, text document good for beginning?

round radish
#

Whatever you think shows off your skills.

#

Probably a mix of both.

pure kettle
#

Preferrably YouTube video and playable builds (you can use itch.io to put them)

I don't think HRDs will download them per se, but not hurt putting them out

hazy idol
#

Thanks the answers guys!

marsh stream
#

@round radish @tidal moth I guess specifically I wasn't sure if compensation should be given, something about it felt off or cold? Bbut your suggestion of giving something back that isn't money could be nice.
Thanks for the advice : )

jagged moon
#

I need some reviews from foundation art course of Gnomon
Or any online fundamental art courses for 3D artist ?
Thank guys

unknown.png unknown.png
minor saffron
jagged moon
plucky hatch
tidal moth
#

pretty sure Gnomon has good reviews overall. I only worked with one person from there though

jagged moon
#

@plucky hatch @tidal moth thank guys

tame bolt
#

I’m not sure if the person is saying this rate is normal for someone just starting or he’s offering this amount. But someone is telling me that it’s 5$ an hour on contract for a first job

#

What do you guys think of this?

#

I thought it would be at least minimum wage

craggy nacelle
#

It's not awful pay for some parts of the world but I wouldn't take it unless I really needed the money and couldn't get anything else within a reasonable timeframe

pure kettle
#

Depends on where you live, the kind of job, and the company.

craggy nacelle
#

^

tame bolt
#

Ah okay. Yeah I just started applying. I’d consider it as a last resort for the experience but I thought a c++ developer job where you need to understand engine code, a job that needs skills would pay a lot more even for entry

pure kettle
#

Assuming the work time is 9-to-5, you can earn about $40 a day, give or take a few. In countries with rather low buying power, that can give you more expensive foods everyday, still able to pay the bills, and save few to buy recreational stuff. In others, might be barely enough for a living.

tame bolt
#

Yeah I’d almost rather just get a grocery store job lol

#

Part time

tidal moth
#

consider it's not just the wage itself, it's also an indication of the person or company in question being inexperienced in paying people what they are worth (and thus they may not respect what you do as they cheapen it)

pure kettle
#

It could also be that the company didn't have enough money for pay employees. Depends on the size of the company.

tidal moth
#

it seems more like tokenized payment if I am being honest

pure kettle
#

If it's a fairly well established company but underpaying the employee, you might in for some nightmare inducing treat.

tidal moth
#

I would stay far away

plucky hatch
# tame bolt I’m not sure if the person is saying this rate is normal for someone just starti...

I would not go anywhere near it (but I guess it depends on what country you are in). Minimum wage in my neck of the woods (Northern Europe) is about $10-15 an hour. Now that’s for the most basic unskilled labour, the very bare minimum.
If you have a marketable skill that you have trained for ie: whatever it is you do with Unreal Engine, then you of course charge more than minimum wage. So let’s say as a junior you are on $15-20 at least.

When I started my first job 11-12 years ago as a designer, I was on $19.75 an hour (and I’m not counting inflation, it would be more these days). So I would be VERY careful, it sounds very scammy. If you need money, and it’s below minimum wage where you live, then just get a regular job until a real offer comes along.

plucky hatch
#

I wanna apologize for being toxic guys

#

I should be more kind and courteous

keen sentinel
craggy nacelle
#

^the difference is still that the other job is a McDonalds cashier

#

Sitting at home at your PC is a lot more preferable at least to me even at a lower pay than customer service jobs lol

#

And you're gaining actual experience in your preferred field of work

#

It's not as black and white as just staring blindly at the salary. I'm not saying "definitely take it!" but just that there are many points to consider besides just the pay

#

I did some stuff for $5/h back when I was finishing my studies because I had tons of free time and figured why not ¯_(ツ)_/¯

pure kettle
keen sentinel
#

I'm not saying I disagree with what you said though either there are a lot more factors than compensation.

craggy nacelle
#

Yeah it's good to keep it in mind for sure

#

I wouldn't have taken that salary for any "serious" job, I only took it because it was just stuff I could do at home in my spare time and it was really easy things as well

keen sentinel
#

Ah okay I had no idea what the original post said I just woke up, read the 5/hr for a contract, and I thought 'hell no' and dropped my 2 cents 😉

wise marten
#

Not at $5 an hour though lol!

round radish
worthy flower
#

Hey friends, writing a resume and drawing a blank on the term for when users adopt a specific target software instead of continuing to use older software?

#

Something like "adopt" but there's a better word that I'm struggling to grab

pastel estuary
#

migration

#

@worthy flower

tame bolt
tame bolt
craggy nacelle
#

Yeah, if you're not in a financial emergency or anything, I would keep looking for something that pays better

tidal moth
craggy nacelle
#

well, way I'd see it is that do you need money immediately

shadow kelp
craggy nacelle
#

I would suggest reading the whole conversation. Tldr is I have worked with those kinds of people earlier in my career and they do pay up.

shadow kelp
#

ah, the old anecdote that proves the rule 🙂 My TLDR is that no-one should be working on anything to do with game dev, anywhere, for $5 an hour.

craggy nacelle
#

Yeah, and the "5 bucks an hour guys do not pay" is equally backed by anecdotal evidence ;)

tidal moth
# craggy nacelle well, way I'd see it is that do you need money *immediately*

if you have a financial emergency you'd probably want a job at a grocery store that pays double that possibly. or better yet, a job within your profession that pays a living wage but outside of gamedev. there isn't really a situation where a $5/hr job is worth the hassle if you can get paid better otherwise IMO

craggy nacelle
#

Yeah you might be right

plucky hatch
# tame bolt Yeah when he asked for desired wage I said 17$. Minimum is 13$ where I live righ...

Yeah well good luck, its easy to fall into the hole when first starting out to de-value yourself, but as you say, its better to just take a regular job to get the cash, use your free time to upskill 👍 . Nothing lost, as others have said, how good is that work really going to be for your portfolio anyway if they are paying bottom of the Barrell wages. You can probably spend a few deep weekends doing your passion projects that will shine much brighter in your portfolio.

sly hearth
#

Hey everyone. My wife is doing a career change from computer vision scientist to tech artist / unreal dev. She has a PhD in applied math, a BA in CompSci, strong programming skills and "traditional" art skills (painting, sculpting). She's applied to about two dozen entry-level positions but there hasn't been a lot of response so far. I know she has an unusual skillset and might be falling "between the cracks" of hiring, so to speak, because she doesn't quite fit in any of the predefined slots.

  1. Where would be a good place for her to apply or look for suitable positions? We live in Canada (near Toronto) and the position would have to be remote (not moving anywhere).

  2. She made a website/portfolio and would love some feedback - https://www.lenagorelick.com/

  3. Any tips on making her more attractive to employers?

Thanks!

ashen lynx
#

@sly hearth 1) Everywhere. 2) It does not look like TA portfolio. There is no indication of skills being applied practically. No connection between what is showcased and what a typical TA might do during everyday work. 3) Her educational background is exceptional and if applied properly, will boost her career progress in technical art substantially.

tidal moth
#

not an expert but I have heard that generally TAs aren't sought out as often for junior positions. so I believe larger companies that have a team of TAs already to mentor would be the only real place. but then there's Ubisoft presence in both Toronto and Montreal

plucky hatch
pure kettle
#

Though Virtual Production side of things has some chance to use UE with just BP, as far as making templates for live shows and whatnot.

#

Make sure they agree to give you time to do R&D though, last time I had VProd job, they didn't give me time to make working templates or doing R&D in general.

pastel estuary
#

@plucky hatch post in the job channels. (read: #instructions ) and read up some info on how to protect yourself from potential scammers just in case. it also helps showing off neat blueprint stuff on social media to attract potential clients.

tame bolt
round radish
#

She might want to apply to the company I work for, they're always looking for talent!

pure kettle
#

If you limited the scope to game development, then yes.

But BP is already more technical for Virtual Production.

#

If BP is all you know, and lacking C++ experience, you still have a chance on virtual production side of things. Using Unreal Engine for live shows, filmmaking, and other linear media production.

#

The demand for UE on that sectors are increasing now.

#

I'm only planning to recruit local developers in my country, so no, I can't help you with hiring.

#

FWIW you can take another job that isn't strictly related to game programming or Unreal Engine. At the very least make a living to survive so that you can learn C++ in your free time.

flat gazelle
#

What does 5 years experience mean in this situation? How many projects have you finished? Has it been fulltime work?

pure kettle
flat gazelle
#

Make a portfolio of your best finished projects. If you find that it's lacking, work on your weaknesses.

pure kettle
#

Also often times if one's degree isn't used as a easy way in, it would be interview followed by assignment to make a gameplay system from scratch with BP within a time limit.

flat gazelle
#

How else would a potential employer know what you are capable of?

pure kettle
#

The moment your employer to be is convinced by your portfolio.

flat gazelle
#

If your projects are enough, why are you asking us?

pure kettle
#

Well, send the job application then.
Worst you can get is getting temporarily blacklisted from applying for the same position.

#

I'm sure companies will never permanently blacklist rejected candidates just because they weren't up to their standards at the time of applying.

pastel estuary
#

apparently not. else you'd be rolling in dough right now.

tidal moth
#

I don't think that's for you to decide. in the end the company decides who to interview/hire and who not to interview/hire

round radish
#

If you want to earn the big bucks with ue, learn c++.

#

If you've spent 5 years doing shit and, in that time, you haven't learned c++, you just need to spend some more of that obviously copious free time doing so.

#

Imo anyway.

mystic cloud
#

Indie studios with very low budget likes to hire BP-only guys and offer them very low salary like $2 per hour or so

pastel estuary
#

i find the talk about bp-only people a bit negative. there are many people in the community that do bp-only that make good bucks and make end meet. heck, there are even a good few people at epic that do blueprint only. you just need to have knowledge, sell yourself well, make yourself known, and be an active contributing community person so people know how to find you. you can easily get 20-80 dollar/euro an hour if you know your blueprints well enough.

plucky hatch
#

Yes, I’ve hired BP only for €60-100 an hour many times.

mystic cloud
pastel estuary
#

not really, make stuff > post it on twitter, reddit, facebook groups, discords, done. the promotion part takes less than an hour a day if you do it actively. interacting with communities is easy and can be done a few minutes every few hours.

shut token
#

I've been able to get a couple of contracts (not in UE, in a different engine) simply because I interact with the community and help people out and all that.

pastel estuary
#

gdc has quite a few videos on how to promote your work

#

im not going to spend time going trough their list, go to youtube, search for gdc, go trough their video library.

mossy condor
#

@plucky hatch what is your Artstation ?

pure kettle
#

Link to your ArtStation, not vague description of your stuff.

#

Make an ArtStation account, and put your portfolio there.

Posting WIPs there is frowned upon, so don't post those.

#

Next time you're sending job application, attach the link to your ArtStation profile

pastel estuary
#

points to the pinned messages in this channel

pure kettle
#

My inner graphic designer self is so angry at that squished image

But IMHO it's anything but convincing. Work out the marketing.

#

I don't know if that offensively squished image is your fault or Discord's thumbnail generation fault

chilly sundial
#

The marketing is bad for that, it tells me nothing about the game in the description, and the images dont look very professional imho

pure kettle
#

The store page doesn't scream quality
Though to be fair the Play Store is littered with cash grab trash anyway...

chilly sundial
#

Indeed

#

The image is your first impression

#

If you fail the first impression then the project fails

pure kettle
#

Still not convincing for acquisition.

#

To quote Dragon's Den investors: "I'm out."

steady pewter
#

Hmm... when is Easter? 🤔 Too much rabbits around.

#

Oops, wrong lounge.

chilly sundial
#

I also assume its an endless runner type, so its important to distinguish what makes yours unique, why shouldnt someone just go download a different one

#

That goes for any game

pure kettle
#

That one TV show where people pitching their business to investors.

#

Consider this a lesson to work on engoodening your marketing/pitching.

chilly sundial
#

Yeah they dont really exist, there is no guarantee for success in the indie dev world

#

What you need to do if you are a solo dev wanting to have the best chance of succeeding is learning all the small parts, good game design, good marketing, and a unique idea

#

That will be your best chance

pure kettle
#

There's many resources on pinned messages and more on the internet available for free. Save your money for something else.

rapid ice
#

I use Aximmetry at my work for Virtual Production stuff, but it's no way in heck user friendly to set up

acoustic zenith
#

is this good? it looks a little weird to me, does anyone here agree?

Screenshot_03-09-2022_21.35.36.png
pure kettle
steady pewter
steady pewter
pure kettle
#

We can't tell if it's still learning or on purpose

pure kettle
acoustic zenith
#

ye but like i want a straight answer

#

its not gonna hurt my feelings cuz i already suck at modleing

#

XD

steady pewter
#

It is not the place what we are saying.

pure kettle
acoustic zenith
#

ok

hallow wave
#

Hi all! I'm Tele and I'm a game programmer. Can anyone speak on the value of having a certificate on their resume vs having no formal education, but lots of self-motivated study and products of such? I'm about to make a $10k decision for an official certificate that will take almost a year to earn. The knowledge sounds good, but I'm sure I could find the knowledge elsewhere - what really interests me is the credential. Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks! Cheers, Tele

serene crystal
#

make a fancy portfolio instead of wasting cash on a fancy piece of paper

#

if you need to pay someone to teach you how to make fancy stuff then use the cash for that

#

not that there are many actually good gamedev schools afaik

pure kettle
#

Though having an academical degree might grant you easier way in with higher positions.

keen sentinel
hallow wave
#

So I've done the majority of my self education on Udemy.com so far, I've got lots of courses on Unreal Engine and C++ programming completed at this point and feel like I've got a pretty good foundation. I've already made 4-5 mini games and the latest are turning out really nicely. Currently enrolled in a 50 hour course that is really taking me to the next level. I have the goal of being ready to apply for a big boy job by this time next year if not sooner, so was just curious if I should start to seek some sort of formal education or not. Thanks a lot for the response, I appreciate it. I think I'll continue to build my portfolio and skills on my own for now.

oblique ice
tidal moth
low fossil
# hallow wave So I've done the majority of my self education on Udemy.com so far, I've got lot...

Adding a +1 to what @tidal moth mentioned. Degrees/certs aren't required in most cases but certainly become a differentiating factor if you're trying to standout from others in the candidate pool. Depending on your situation, you can also look for hiring initiative cohorts to help get a job such as https://careers.activisionblizzard.com/levelupu (paid 3 month long on-the-job-training gig that'll open the doors to a job)

activision blizzard
Level Up U | activision blizzard

Level Up U

#

In my experience, if you're able to effectively demonstrate your skills to pay the bills on a portfolio/website, and your work is good, you'll most likely get hired somewhere. I worked at one studio that routinely hired from the modding community for their products.

plucky hatch
hallow wave
#

Well that wasn't helpful at all!

topaz wing
#

does it make sense from progressing career standpoint to start learning about multithreading as a junior programmer?

ashen lynx
#

it does

steady pewter
#

💀

pure kettle
#

No.
And don't crosspost.

proper galleon
sinful charm
#

I'm somewhat proficient at Blueprints and can nearly implement anything I want with just blueprints. Hell we have even full AAA Games which are completely made in Blueprints.

But whatever game conpany I apply to in my country, my No. 1 rejection facror is I'm told, either you know the C++ or we can't get you in.

Im really wondering why is the case and why game studios don't use blueprints and are heavily focus on C++? 🤔

royal lintel
#

Err, full AAA games completely made in Blueprint? Where? No AAA is going to build a full budget game entirely out of blueprint.

pure kettle
royal lintel
#

Blueprint is primarily aimed at designers and artists, at least in AAA. If you're applying to engineering positions then that would be why.

#

Blueprint is absolutely used throughout studios using Unreal, but often the positions are done as part of a larger discipline - tech art, level or gameplay design, etc.

#

As such you need a portfolio to fit whatever area you're going for.

sinful charm
#

Level and environment designer positions aside, they even require C++ for gampelay design, VR/AR
I DON'T really get why..

Isn't the difference just in the performance? 🤔 And many VR/AR & even small indie games don't really require that much performance optimization

royal lintel
#

No, it's not just about performance.

#

C++ for pure design positions should be pretty rare, sounds like the positions you were looking at were hybrid design/engineering positions.

#

If you have a team of engineers working in C++ and need to add someone to that team, someone working in blueprint simply isn't going to be able to work on the same tasks.

#

As for why C++ is so prevalent - it's a combination of a lot of factors:

  • Performance, as you mentioned, is at least part of the reason.
  • Many many features of the engine are simply not exposed to blueprint. Even if you've been able to work around blueprint's limitations (which you may not know you were even doing) that doesn't mean a studio wants to work that way.
  • If there's a problem that involves understanding how the engine works under the hood, you generally turn to someone with C++ experience because that's what the engine is written in. Same goes for debugging crashes or other problems that are very hard to understand from the blueprint side of things.
plucky hatch
#

There are some things that just make sense when written as a math equation in C++... Try doing algebra in blueprint nodes and you're overcomplicating the hell out of it.

pure kettle
#

That's the least deterrent factor.

plucky hatch
#

Games are almost always a combination of math, data structures, algebra. Blueprints are a poor substitute for C++.

pure kettle
#

Eh, I'm inclined to think algebraic stuff is the least deterrent factor in the career side of things.

#

I think it comes down to either performance, or project requirement goes beyond what BP provides, which is the case with AAA projects.

royal lintel
#

Speed and safety of implementation is certainly part of it too. Plus available talent.

#

It's not any one thing.

pure kettle
#

FWIW BPs would still relevant in AAA studios using Unreal Engine, just that it usually limited to prototyping designs and not for major development part

royal lintel
#

Prototyping isn't really the place for them in AAA (though it does get used that way). It is, again, for designers and artists.

#

Hooking up stuff in levels that was exposed in C++, most visual/audio scripting not directly related to gameplay, etc.

tidal moth
#

you can ship BPs just fine, but I think the point about BPs not being the only part of a role in a AAA production is very valid

#

even if you're a game designer using BPs, the use of BPs is a tool for your designs. your focus is on the design, not which tool you use for it

serene crystal
#

version control with BPs is a nightmare

#

at least once you have more than one person working on one

#

there are definitely people who do only BPs but my guess is they usually fulfill another role as well

pure kettle
#

<@&213101288538374145> repeated crosspost

vagrant brambleBOT
#

:triangular_flag_on_post: Diixencider#8673 received strike 1. As a result, they were muted for 10 minutes.

median fossil
# serene crystal version control with BPs is a nightmare

Lots of people do multiple roles, but many projects consist of years worth of BP workload.

BP is acceptable for about 90% (80-100%) of your game's logic, since 90% of any game's logic represents 5-10% of the actual processing cost. Most logic scarcely runs or has scarce cost, and for many games, the cost of runtime CPU is not as important as the speed of the developer.

Just learn what is working for you. When you hit a wall, smash through it, somehow. There is a huge difference between good and bad BP's. Just keep getting gooder, and eventually you'll figure out where the tool breaks, and when that happens, you won't be sad. You will be happy.

royal lintel
#

I think you missed the context - this was a question about why C++ was so prevalent during a job search through AAA studios. And that "90%" depends on what you mean by your "game's logic" - if you're talking about level-specific scripts and customization on top of base actors, sure. That's exactly what BP is intended for. If you're talking about the entirety of the engineering work that goes into a AAA game (which is, again, the context for this conversation) that's just false.
For some small teams/indies that might certainly be true, but for someone asking why they can't get an engineering job knowing just BP it's misleading.

plucky hatch
#

Overall, much of tech requires an ever evolving skillset that has a steep learning curve.

zinc phoenix
#

Hello everyone, I've been working with UE for a few months now and definitely this is what I want to pursue - game development.

For context, I work as a junior front-end developer right now and I'm pretty happy where I'm at but ever since the pandemic, most of our projects got frozen and our work had changed, because of that, work is now getting boring as we are not even writing that much JS, just mainly maintenance and refactoring.

I want to, however, to pursue game development and I'm unsure how to proceed and I will state the following reasons;

  • I didn't drop out of school but I wasn't attending classes that I found boring such as biology, chemistry, etc (nothing coding/tech related) but also, I didn't attend math classes.
  • I work as a front-end dev, I earn way more than my parents do but.. that honestly, doesn't make me happy a single bit, I would be happier if I were working for a company with UE even if I were to earn less than my current salary.
  • A relative of mine told me that without math, I won't get anywhere, she runs a huge company and most of their juniors and seniors (especially) all graduated math bachelor or masters in order to get to those positions.
  • I worked with UE for 4 months now but if you asked me to created something from scratch, I would probably fail, in my opinion, my logical thinking is very slow and I'm depression and demotivated because I'm not sure if I would ever be able to work with UE in a professional way.

Please, I would listen to any tips, I want to succeed, I won't ever give up because that's who I am, although I didn't go to school that much, I self taught myself for my current job and am honored a lot for the HQ work I do which is way better than the one of my colleagues who were there for years, I know I would be a good asset to any company but I want to be able to do things from scratch and create projects without asking for help all the time.

Thanks in advance for your assistance, if you guys need any additional information about myself so you could give me a better advice, I'd be more than happy to answer them

zinc phoenix
#

Thanks for your input, I brought up math because most of my friends got bachelor slash masters and now work for good companies, and yes, it's true that, while they work in those companies, that shouldn't bother me because everyone develops individually in his own way.
Anyway, I am ready to invest in math classes and get a teacher so I can speed up the learning process, while no one can guarantee the outcome of it, would it at least increase my chances of being able to build things from scratch in UE only by myself? Thanks.

serene crystal
#

advanced math is not a huge thing for anything but gigabrained tech art if you ask me

#

basic "make vectors you what you want" math

zinc phoenix
serene crystal
#

all great leaders rotate 4d cubes in their minds all day

steel creek
#

or just 4 1d cubes. smartthink

tidal moth
worldly heath
#

Anybody want to create group project for mobile in ue4

spice dagger
#

You can read how to use the Job Board in the #instructions channel.

plucky hatch
plucky hatch
zinc phoenix
#

@plucky hatch thanks, I already heard of Khan academy but decided to go on with a personal teacher, you know there is something about paying someone to teach you instead of doing it by yourself (for free obviously), I suppose the hard earned money are put into an investment by going with a teacher so you will be more strict to studying math.

plucky hatch
#

this

plucky hatch
zinc phoenix
#

@plucky hatch @plucky hatch I have learned the basics, in fact, it helped me create some functionalities by myself on UE5, I saw how it helped me but things started to get more complicated to the point where I need a teacher because I don't have the time to do researches and solutions online, you probably know how it is when you work and have to take care of a family

plucky hatch
#

nope. not married. no kids. but i do know what its like to work your buttoff

plucky hatch
#

(i don't learn trigonometry until next year)

chilly sundial
#

Trig and vector math are important

#

If youre interested in the inner workings then matrices too

zinc phoenix
pure kettle
#

Besides, the trig and vector maths aren't that scary

steel creek
#

I'd argue that's the entirety

plucky hatch
#

should i learn linear algebra before or after trig? and should i learn everything before attempting to go further into gamedev or should i learn as i go?