interview and communication skills are pretty important too, on top of networking (unfortunately)
#career-chat
vocal meadow
gentle stone
I got my first and only job so far with relative ease but it's not a games company nor a big one, that's why I might be off
ashen lynx
For the programming parts formal education is often a requirement especially at a larger studio That is.. untrue 🙂
west sonnet
I’d argue it isn’t what you know but who you know
vocal meadow
depends on the studio kinda, i would say, with who you know i mean
lilac walrus
I got my first programming job without any formal education
and my first games job also without, so...
gentle stone
was in the area of tools/engine programming or gameplay programming?
lilac walrus
gameplay
west sonnet
Most of the programmers I know today don’t have a degree to their name
vocal meadow
there are places that will evaluate purely on skill, but this imaginary concept of game company we refer to a lot is not that
gentle stone
maybe it's a difference in culture, too. Here, it would be unthinkable to go without degree, but then again, Germany pretty much sucks as a games location
lilac walrus
I've worked in a fair few places now, and these days generally get to pick & interview candidates
a degree is not a requirement
I'm in Germany and doing just fine ¯_(ツ)_/¯
gentle stone
really? Where are you working now?
lilac walrus
Deep Silver
vocal meadow
cool ambershee
gentle stone
pretty cool. Do you know if the hiring process is still the same as back then?
lilac walrus
nothing has changed
gentle stone
okay, interesting. 🤔
vocal meadow
whoa btw, had no idea shenmue 3 is out
gentle stone
what game are you currently working on if you are allowed to say amber?
lilac walrus
Dead Island 2
gentle stone
I always get confused with all those survival zombie games.. first thought was Dying Light 2. It looks pretty good though. What are your responsibilities?
lilac walrus
I'm a Senior Technical Designer
I mostly design gameplay features, on paper, rapid prototype, and a some final implementation
gentle stone
so the technical side of game design basically?
lilac walrus
I'm predominantly a game designer, but I often operate independently of the programming teams because I can
gentle stone
yeah I see. That's cool. I know too many game designers that don't understand that there is more to it than having ideas.
I would put game designers in quotes but ehh I don't want this to turn into a rant :) mind if I ask about your wages? I can send you a DM too if you prefer. There is so little data on German game dev wages out there and from what I've heard and personally know it's rather low on average
lilac walrus
my salary would be more of an exception rather than a rule tbh
flat gazelle
I thought that ^ only happened at Crytek! ZING
lilac walrus
hahaha, receiving a salary there is exceptional xD
flat gazelle
Exactly!
kindred mason
Salary varies for everyone for pretty darn good reasons
Way too many factors involved there
Asking for how much someone makes (especially if they have 5+ years experience over you) isn't going to help you negotiate your own pay
flat gazelle
Salary Schmallary! Golden Handcuffs is all they are. In my day we were happy for the chance to work our selves to death.
kindred mason
Or you'll just be butthurt because someone is getting paid more than you with the same experience
Also, everyone's cost of living is different
My recommendation, figure out what you need to live and have fun in life without living paycheck to paycheck
Add another 10-25k at the start of negotiations if you can
Get down to what you really wanted (or more)
lilac walrus
25k is a lot to add in most Eurozone countries
west sonnet
That might be in California money
vocal meadow
bling
deep mesa
ah yes, CA money
I got lucky -- I got a CA job, then moved to philly
so I make that CA money with philly COL 🙂
gentle stone
it's not so much that I want to compare mine to others and rather just get some data so I can get a general feel of the situation. Most people I know who just start out at some game company here in Germany will only get a couple € above minimum wage
so that "add another 25k at the start of negotiations" could basically double those people's salary..
lilac walrus
depending on discipline, 25k is the pay gap between junior and senior xD
kindred mason
Again
That's why it's pointless asking about other's salaries
COL around the world is so vastly different
Even in the same country (USA), depending on where you live it is.
But it's not even just Cost Of Living you have to worry about.
Now, if you can line it up where you definitely know the other person's experience level (and it's roughly around your level), they live in the same city as you, and same field...sure why not. (But even then...every company is different on how they pay their employees...so there we go again)
unique umbra
I increased mine by almost 50% after the first year due to it being so low the first 🙂
kindred mason
I really need to think and write about how I started out. But basically I used my own advice. Figured out how much I needed to live comfortably and that was my rate.
bronze dew
live and save is the key really
kindred mason
Yes, as time goes on and your experience level and portfolio grows...your rate should be growing with it.
bronze dew
always downtime for ppl in our field
kindred mason
Aye, agreed...or do what I did...and used it up to work on a game for a year.
bronze dew
.>
kindred mason
(well, still working on it)
bronze dew
I'm using mine to recover from burnout...
unique umbra
Work for a semi stable company?
bronze dew
wish I could say I've had that opportunity
unique umbra
no if you don't want downtime 🙂
kindred mason
Oh, um...this is gamedev
Even the best crumble
There is definitely not 100% job security in this field
But sometimes pretty damn close to it. But never assume 100%
unique umbra
yeah but sometimes you can see it coming and jump ship 🙂
kindred mason
Still the same end result
unique umbra
if you can't land a new one before that then yes. Never bad to have some saved away 🙂
bronze dew
also good if you want to own property hehe 😛
unique umbra
The property need to be close to a city with multiple studios just so if one goes down you can get on another in commuting distance.
unless you freelance from home
bronze dew
oh now your just talking crazy talk dude...
west sonnet
where else would you freelance from?
daring parrot
coworking space
unique umbra
coffee shop?
west sonnet
I guess there's contractors
bronze dew
I've been Freelance / Contractor for 22 years now
west sonnet
you are called a unicorn
west sonnet
you'd need to become a business owner. Not something most people can do successful
bronze dew
it does add another layer to a complex life....
west sonnet
taxes
plucky hatch
Hey, being Indian, is it true that we usually get offered about a third of what they'd pay to US employees?
craggy nacelle
If you live in india and work for an indian company then yeah that's highly likely, if you're working remotely for a US company then it depends on how much they want you to work for them I guess :P
jade glade
Man I feel really depressed about my work. Worst week I had up to this point. It is terrible, if you wanna achieve fail several times and then try even harder. Work at home to find a solution and in the end you know you won't find a solution!
My ambition and fascination for everything is a pain in the ass :/
Are there different types of programming persons?
nova tartan
There are lots of different areas software developers specialize in.
jade glade
Ok maybe I should start with things I'm good at!
I'm good at adapting things and modifying them based on them. For example adding small extensions. If there is a solid logical allready working code. I hate hate hate sorry and messy code, desks , etc. I know how people work and what they want! All that UX Usability stuff.
Learning super fast, when it always builts upon itself. I'm a sucker for languages.
I'm not able to write complex code by my own or to start from scratch, also I don't see the scope for a whole project on the code base.
kindred mason
@jade glade So, the reason you're having a rough week is because you can't find a solution to a problem you're running into with your code?
And I don't understand the second part
Or is that just like self-promotion
kindred mason
Aye, I know all about being tired.... I've only slept maybe 8 hours total in the past 3 days
Something I am sure is attributed to looking at a monitor 15+ hrs a day
But, it's cool if you need to vent. That's what the community is here for.
jade glade
It's more that I shall achieve things, that I never learned. For example I know how unreal works, when looking at bluebrints. But now I shall look if I can make the impossible possible. Just because it's one click in unity
kindred mason
But there was no context 🙂
craggy nacelle
fwiw being able to program things from scratch comes with programming things from scratch
if you don't do it a lot then it's gonna be harder to figure it out
jade glade
@craggy nacelle im certain, that I can built up a solid base, but without pressure. but I would never be really good at it.
kindred mason
You never know unless you try
jade glade
I mean I learned quite a bit Japanese. It's not that I miss endurance.
kindred mason
I always suggest this for everyone, especially starting out.... DO GAMEJAMS
mystic storm
and start small
jade glade
Just asking hej, I have no experience, just give me some work?
I feel overwhelmed buy some work I should get done and it's like hey do that in cpp, if necessary, because it's not possible in blueprint. I never have done anything in cpp before.
And it should be done in a week. It super super important by the way.
I often think people assume you can do anything, if you say you can code a bit.
honest cipher
jade glade
Perhaps that not what joy is for me? Not interesting enough to get good
I mean in relation to the effort
digital gate
If you're not interested in improving yourself, why ask for suggestions?
gentle stone
if what you are doing gives you no joy, do something else. No point in investing a lot of time in something you know you don't enjoy. There are other areas you can be productive in that give you more joy
graceful oyster
Not sure if this comment belongs here but here goes. I hit that wall in my life where I want to actually do something I feel passionate about. Which is creating/being creative in some way. I decided video game development is the way to go. Specifically starting in the world creating/level design aspect of things. I have spent many hours on youtube painstakingly going through tutorial vids and I finally feel like I'm getting a solid grasp and understanding of things. Can anyone recommend next steps or great learning resources? Obviously the portfolio is a priority, especially if I want to start getting paid or start working for a developer. So what I'm asking for is just general advice from people who have been where I am now. The end goal is to make this a day job
Im working on unreal engine btw
gentle stone
good, since this is an unreal server
graceful oyster
that does make things easier
graceful oyster
design. Is it possible to get by in a professional environment using pre made assets or do I need the ability to create them from scratch as well?
west sonnet
Level Designers are not responsible for asset creation
You’re responsible for the “art of fun”
tacit siren
Very fun level made only with cubes > awesome looking level that has... ok-ish gameplay
graceful oyster
Nice. That definitely sounds like my cup of tea.
I DM d&d a lot and by far my favorite part is creating the unique dungeons. Does level design usually have industry education standards?
gentle stone
there are plenty of free high quality asset packs out there that you can use to practice. There are many related fields such as game design, lighting etc. so there is a lot you can get some experience with so you can further specialize in the future
graceful oyster
gentle stone
best thing you can do is make actual games in your portfolio, not just something that looks nice, because function can't be shown with just pretty pictures
graceful oyster
ive been screwing around with fun ways to use the included assets in UE but I definitely and going to go on an asset downloading binge lol
gentle stone
for that end, look for like minded people and participate in game jams. Try to do something new everytime
gentle stone
imo jam games generally are not a good way to build up your portfolio, but they are a good way to meet new people and get inspiration, as well as advance in fields quickly. The primary artist I'm working with I met by chance on a jam, years later we are still working together
barren lotus
Do you have a studio in mind you'd want to work at? Sometimes they have their SDKs public so you can focus on what you'd be using there especially since they'd likely give you a design test with their tools.
If you want to work on CoD use the tools they have public for MW / BO3, or if you wanted to work on Fallout use the Creation Kit for FO4 / Skyrim.
graceful oyster
@barren lotus Ideally there are a few I'd love to work at but at this point I cant afford to be picky lol
old minnow
I don't know where you are located but check this epic job : )
also I would say don't worry much about art assets, its the art team job to make levels look beautiful, level designers usually just talk with the artists and check collisions and bugs after assets have been placed or help placing some stuff, but its not really a level designer job to place assets, your job is to make the level fun to play and not good looking, so much so that in most studios level designers only use gray boxes XD so focus on making fun levels think about having a good flow and interesting gameplay.
get some free assets and make some fun level for a portfolio, alternatively you could make levels for Unreal Tournament or some other UE4 game that accept mods but today with UE4 I think its a good idea to make something that is stand alone(easier for people to test your work), make something super small just to show how fun you can make a level.
this youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCncCrL2AVwpp7NJEG2lhG9Q/videos is by a level designer working on cyberpunk 2077 he has some good info that could help you out.
graceful oyster
@old minnow Thank you!! Thats a lot of good info. If I was qualified I would totally be putting in an application for that internship
old minnow
its an internship make something small and fun and apply for it, the worst thing that can happen is you don't get it, but even then you still end up with a portfolio piece
graceful oyster
Thats true. Do you have experience working for a game developer?
old minnow
I do, the first job I got was so random lol thats why I tell you apply even if you think you have no chance, even if you don't get the job you will still learn something with it.
graceful oyster
Heres a random question - (and thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me about this, It really does help me out a ton!) I'm looking at other internship applications as well. I dont exactly have a relevant resume. Im 27 and all of my work experience is in the sales industry. Should I make a whole new resume that basically says I only have rudimentary knowledge of UE4?
old minnow
the most important thing is your portfolio, as long as you make cool stuff and can work on a team other stuff don't matter much
just say you have experience working in sales use that to say you are good with people, and show some of your work
graceful oyster
Does it matter if theres no actual game attached to the work. like if I just make a beautiful pvp level with the character just being a dummy to run around it in, would that be generally acceptable in a portfolio?
old minnow
you need something fun
graceful oyster
like fun design or fun game
old minnow
level designers are responsible for making a level fun, you need gameplay.
graceful oyster
I'm still pretty new to this game design journey so I'm a ways off from being able to do that
old minnow
level designers usually program stuff in the level and make the level interesting thats why some coding is required, you need to make a level and test it and make changes as you test.
and you need to make something fun, it doesn't need to be something new, just a fun level is enough, a lot of level designers make mods because with mods you already have the game design stuff and you can focus on level design
lol not that its easy to make a level fun of course but its the kind of thing that you just need to make to start understand how it works
graceful oyster
thank you
old minnow
ok so look at this
this kind of thought process is what you want to have
and always... always have people playtesting you levels
old minnow
anyway don't take anything I'm saying too serious different people will have different experiences, the important thing is to get something cool to show so you can get studios to be excited in having you.
graceful oyster
@old minnow I just put in an internship app for the hell of it. thanks for the suggestion!
plucky hatch
Hey guys. I have run into an early life crisis.
My internship app was rejected because the people who came to interact with me unanimously felt that I was going to be an obstacle in team-based work.
What with eye contact, voerly complicated speech style, conjuring problems and attempting to solve those.
I need some inputs on getting started with freelance.
bronze dew
I would learn work with people online @plucky hatch . Put yourself into situations that don’t matter... work out the basics of how other people communicate. There are patterns that you will see. Once you have a good amount of them down you’ll find that your own responses are more appropriate. Also less is more when communicating with people in general. And in regards to work stuff itself. Examples / diagrams really go a long way
One last thing. Don’t always show that you have the knowledge they need even if it is useful. Do it occasionally... pick your times. Otherwise you’ll be judged a know it all and virtually every culture hates that not matter how accurate it might actually be. And be prepared to listen to someone even if you already have the answer in your head. You might learn something anyways
plucky hatch
I have tried doing that on several occasions. I haven't found a route for fixing that yet.
Not on text, not in person.
bronze dew
It takes time to learn...
But being aware is always a good first step. And be thankful you got feedback early on in your career
plucky hatch
I have essentially ground down offers out of sheer boredom and mismatch online. Here, offline, I encountered it first hand.
bronze dew
Try to get over Boredom. Work in any field is full of it... live for the joy of working things out
plucky hatch
I already knew this could be a problem, but seeing a workplace do it doesn't make me feel better at all. It has increased the sample size of people who genuinely have trouble communicating with me.
bronze dew
That never gets old
You seem fine right now ( yes I know it could get worse the more we talk ) but that’s just it. Keep the communication short and to the point
plucky hatch
I haven't presented know it all, nor did I shake with excitement. I responded as I would.
Welp, it's becoming a vent.
bronze dew
People are really really really good at picking up on this kind of thing
plucky hatch
Let's talk about how to set myself up for freelance.
bronze dew
Yes... beware of venting 😉
plucky hatch
Not my personality problems, but the stuff I must do, like bank accounts and stuff.
flat gazelle
Depends on your location.
west sonnet
Looking forward to these insight https://tenor.com/Ude4.gif
west sonnet
Tough to provide financial advice based on that location. But in more generalized situation, there’s self branding if you haven’t already.
plucky hatch
I don't think I have enough clout or resources, nor experience and volition to do that.
I don't want to do that.
I'm okay with posting on job requirement places.
craggy nacelle
I think one underrated method to help get better at communication is actually helping people in communities like this one
Answering questions requires you to understand what's being asked, and give an explanation in a way someone with less experience can understand... this forces you to ask questions to get more information, and find ways to simplify the sometimes complex answer
bronze dew
One thing that helped me a lot... was contributing my projects back to the community... it gave me a lot of good Will back ... and my first full time job.
ashen lynx
And will likely lead to loosing all abilities of meaningful verbal communication in long term 🙂
plucky hatch
@craggy nacelle technical answers are easiest and most satisfactory
I don't find communicating hard at all points at all. Just these few unfamiliar situations.
Serious advice to individuals venting? More challenging, more entropic. I tried to do that once, but I've a whole history of trauma associated with that line of things.
Complexity comes from how "organic" the context is.
ashen lynx
I do think that venting organics in the office is.. not the best thing for fastest career possible.
plucky hatch
That is correct. I'd only provide what details actually matter in that setting. Learnt it the hard way at least.
velvet quarry
Alright sooo, i'd love some support with this, i'm a 17 yo (almost 18) highschool dropout, i'm self-tought in webdevelopment/programming and i'd love to get into game development because webdevelopment kinda bores me, but without any degree im unsure of how to get into it easily and get a steady job, should i continue learning game development on my own or do i really need a degree, should i just make a game of my own ideas? Im not sure as to how to move into the job from my current position but i am very sure that i would love to do it. Literally any support would be greatly appreciated
spice dagger
For now your best option would be to learn as much as you can. Create as much as you can to grow your skills. Branch out slowly in areas that interest you. Get a good understanding of how the Engine and Editor work. Follow tutorials, try and recreate simple games like tetris or pong.
Getting into gamedev does not happen overnight.
Get a part time job outside of gamedev to support yourself while you learn.
Degrees are not necessary.
But can help depending on where your applying for jobs.
Hover around the Forums and look at the #looking-for-talent channel for jobs that may interest you. Once your comfortable with your skills and you think you can approach a job listing, talk with the individual that has posted the job.
Perhaps start with unpaid jobs (they tend to be easier and obviously there is less risk)
Then once your comfortable with how you express your skills to prospective employers you could branch out to paid opportunities.
Dont dive in straight away though, if you havent got any experience with working in the Editor or general gamedev at all then grow your skills.
Be honest with yourself about what you can achieve. Set reasonable goals that push you just outside of your comfort zone.
Trying to build the next Call of Duty is naive and impossible.
plucky hatch
All of this.
spice dagger
If your honest with yourself and your abilities then you will be honest with employers and at the end of the day be a better developer for it.
Your young. You have time on your side.
Try everything you can.
Until you find something that really grabs your interest.
Learn everything you can.
But remember that it wont come to you overnight. It will take time. Rome wasnt built in a day.
Passion and perseverance is key to success.
@velvet quarry Good luck. If you have further questions dont hesitate to ask them.
velvet quarry
Wow thanks so much, thats literally the best advice i couldve asked for, really appreciate it man❤️
tidal moth
I'd say as a programmer having a degree in CS or software development makes the hiring process much easier. you'd have to prove that you understand the high level concepts in programming otherwise, which may be hard to show off all of in a given sample code.
craggy nacelle
^Having projects to show helps, even if they're just personal for fun/hobby projects
digital gate
If you know someone, it can be easier to get through the noise of all the applications. Once you're past the noise youll have an easier time demonstrating your skill.
pallid flare
How do I go about posting free help with BP/C++ for people?
odd mulch
degrees are useful in the sense that it shows you can learn stuff
and that you know the bare minimum in most thing
hybrid phoenix
And that you can actually stick to something
vocal meadow
I hear they are pretty expensive to obtain. Could do something less expensive to prove stick-ability.
latent wolf
hey all
just here to chat in voice or text im here to find people that are into programming, 3D or 2D modeling, map design, etc.
I'm a novice game designer and I just want to get inside info on various components to developing any sort of 3D or 2D game. (any help would be applicative)
nova tartan
I'm afraid that's a bit too general for us to provide any good advice
All I can recommend is try to make a small game like space invaders from start to finish so you can learn the steps involved
or just try to make what you want and figure it out as you go along
tidal moth
I hear they are pretty expensive to obtain. Could do something less expensive to prove stick-ability.
Cocoon yourself in a basement for years and only emerge when you're a strong enough coder to hack the lock to the exit
vocal meadow
A glowing cocoon of Mountain Dew and flaming hot Cheetos proves you can stick to something. You enter a mortal and exit with a aura of learning ability brain sugars.
tidal moth
enter a mortal and exit a higher being whose sweat with literally stick to something, or anything really
woeful iron
Hi guys I have an odd question, dno if this is the right place for it, we're currently working on a game with 8 people, of with 2 developers, the artists want a deadline extension for the game, but that would put unused downtime on the developers, what would be a good course of action to not waste the developers time?
tidal moth
optimize game code
hybrid phoenix
^
You're sure to have some technical debt, stuff that can be improved
Frameworks that can be put in place for future updates
vocal meadow
Though, not all programmers are great optimizers. If they could optimize the game play that might be worth looking into as well. (Removing extra flow in menus or whatever)
barren lotus
Alternatively don't give the extension if the game is ready to go? No game is ever finished they're just shipped
graceful oyster
I asked about this on the level design channel as well. I'm working towards being a level designer. What is acceptable in a level design portfolio/how would I even build a portfolio to begin with without knowing how to do all of the other aspects of game development
vocal meadow
Personally, I find level designers ability to pick up new tools a big plus. So doing levels in a couple engines might be a bonus to some. It might not matter for some studios though. Most of my level design friends from source engine are at Activision on COD now which had similar tools to source engine so.. it likely matters where you apply as well.
nova tartan
From my understanding every game ships with a million bugs known to testers but not fixed because not enough time
they should probably fix those?
vocal meadow
You set your own standards.
Many rely on updates though yeah. Games get pushed out early and never finished
nova tartan
Another option is just start work on another game
graceful oyster
@vocal meadow What would constitute as a "level" for the sake of a portfolio? If I apply for a level design position/internship is it acceptable to have just like basic assets/blocks used but with an understanding of what would make the layout of a level enjoyable?
I find myself being super ambitious in this aspect and I think I'm biting off more than I can chew on my own so I'm trying to figure out where the acceptable boundaries are to work a little more efficiently
vocal meadow
I'm not the best for level design advice but would say that ambitious feeling balance with efficiency is the right mentality when picking up things in general. Important to learn why you don't do things by trial sometimes. Just being told things are bad isn't enough always.
graceful oyster
that makes sense. Thank you!
tidal moth
@graceful oyster design intent above all is key
whatever you're trying to achieve in your level, everything in your level has to point towards that
if you can't make your intentions happen in game, then ensure you're describing adequately what is going on in the level in every section
(you will really want to do this regardless, as it is the first step towards implementation)
start small, a single well done encounter or area carries more weight than a large empty level
beyond that, an understanding of metric usage, proficiency in 3d packages and engines, flair for elements such as compositions matters
graceful oyster
@tidal moth Thats some amazing advice, thank you. I'm actually going to copy that on to a note on my desktop
tidal moth
if you have any specific questions, you can always ask in the #design-chat or #level-design
graceful oyster
I also dropped the same question in level-design earlier lol. If you don't mind me asking @tidal moth what is your experience/area of expertise in the game industry?
tidal moth
level design, strangely enough
although nowadays I do get my hands dirty with all kinds of design really
graceful oyster
nice! would you mind giving me some advice on how to work a little more efficiently with a project I'm currently working on? If not, that is 100% ok because you've already helped little old me a lot more than you know
tidal moth
sure, tag me in the right channel
flat gazelle
I thought the standard procedure during downtime would be to KS everything and hit the bar.
tidal moth
KS everything
Kill steal everything? 😅
flat gazelle
Known Shippable bug
plucky hatch
@velvet quarry That advice from Matt is 10/10 by the way. You can do it. Jumping in game dev with some sort of technical knowledge background (web dev/programming) does contribute to how fast you will 'learn' or start to understand concepts, if you know what I mean. One more thing I want to say: Do not let anyone talk you out of your ideas, they will tell you you can not do it/achieve it for no clear reason.
There is a lot of potential available, I know that for a fact.
fickle hatch
Okay, don't let anyone talk you out of your ideas, but you're not actually seriously going to make an MMO
Making your own game engine is much more educational if anything
Avoid projects that require thousands of man hours just to get basics done xD
plucky hatch
I should have been more specific there.
The folks who just deny possibilities without any reason, without any experience to talk from. They'll just tell you 'you can't do that' because that is just what they do.
lone plank
I would argue that taking on a huge project solo will teach you more than doing smaller ones
west sonnet
That's the equivalent of trying to barf on an art canvas after consuming various food dyes as opposed to using a pencil to learn line drawing
plucky hatch
Well said.
mystic storm
i mean it worked for Pollock
vocal meadow
Most people tend to think if they just do their own thing that they are proud of and exaust themselves it'll help them get a job on a big AAA studio team and I don't think this is reasonable thinking personally.
Imagine years of solo work for portfolio is gonna lack team work experience
tidal moth
yeah communication skills in general are underdeveloped, especially on fresh graduates
crystal summit
hey guys, so I'm trying to find a job as a technical artist, but currently have no actual portfolio to show. In my current job most of the stuff I worked on is NDA'd so it'll be pretty difficult to show any representative from that.
Another thing is that I'm not entirely sure how to actually show off my skills in that area. Can anyone give me a few tips on how to set something like this up?
tidal moth
did they give you tasks to do?
crystal summit
who?
tidal moth
you
crystal summit
I meant the 'they' part of your question
west sonnet
whoever you worked for
tidal moth
exactly
crystal summit
I mean, yeah, that's what work is, isn't it?
tidal moth
k well, try to recreate something similar that isn't breaking NDA
west sonnet
you'd be surprised :
tidal moth
I assume it'd be technical, so you might be able to show off some of your skills just purely by showing what you can do with pipeline tools
also yes, some workplaces/roles are required to find their tasks themselves
west sonnet
Well the nice thing about tech art is that the results are visually based. You're going to need to build a portfolio or otherwise showcase your capabilities. There isn't a way around that
tidal moth
in either case, the point is you have the knowledge, so it's all about showing off that knowledge in the best possible way
crystal summit
hm yeah I guess that makes sense
tidal moth
if you've made tools, recreate those, if you've made materials, show a material that requires a depth of expertise and explain yourself along the way
west sonnet
There's not much advice beyond "start building". Consider how potential employers will view you. They don't have much time to dedicate to each applicant during the first hiring sweep. Your display needs to be concise and to the point.
crystal summit
it was mostly either some shader stuff or building tools in UE4 with blueprints. does that even fit the role? I'm still not entirely sure what constitutes as technical artist
west sonnet
absolutely
west sonnet
it's a grey area
crystal summit
haha yeah that's what always has me so confused, but thanks for the advice
tidal moth
both of what you mentioned is worth showing off in terms of skill, especially if you explain your process step by step
people love that shit
another thing people love is if you can get an article published somewhere about your work
west sonnet
Make them excited to hire you, show off those sparkles
vocal meadow
winning smile
crystal summit
I work in automotive and I've build a system that can showcase the ambient light of a car and the whole setup was pre-baked for nicer lightning, but each part was individually controllable, there's some neat stuff in there that I'm pretty proud off. I guess I could adapt the same technique to a different scene and show that off, maybe?
tidal moth
absolutely
tidal moth
but keep in mind your purpose is to show off your depth of knowledge as much as your work
especially as a tech artist
vocal meadow
yeah adaptably are the sparkles to show with most fields in gaming. everything changes beyond z being up.
crystal summit
tell that the guys over at Unity :/
west sonnet
shhh
crystal summit
oh no I said the bad word!
vocal meadow
ikr? they don't adapt nufin
west sonnet
every time that word is used, a dream is crushed
tidal moth
lol
vocal meadow
for every reference, a developer gets lost.
tidal moth
maybe we should start calling unity converts u-turners
west sonnet
your job is to make those dreams come true, magician of the art world 😛
crystal summit
🧙♂️
alright time to build something amazing and cool that wow's those recruiter people!
no pressure
west sonnet
Goodluck, we can't wait 😄 https://tenor.com/bcguf.gif
tidal moth
@plucky hatch not the right channel
plucky hatch
Lol I cant find the channel
hybrid phoenix
tidal moth
are you serious
pastel estuary
fickle hatch
"Joined <..> as a Junior <..> Artist" uhhhh
Most if not all of these look above junior level to me 🤔
Maybe I'm wrong here, but while the art is pretty, that part gives off a very strange vibe
Even worse, some of these are "joined as intern", that feels so really off to me. Is it just me?
While sure, they might fit junior role (even though it's not what I understand as "junior", different people define it differently sure), but surely hiring a person like this as an intern is an attempt to undervalue them?
tidal moth
some joined as intermediates as well
it depends on the studio and situation
I don't think necessarily the intern one was justified, but we don't know the whole story
the junior position is mostly to do with speed than anything else
as far as I know
fickle hatch
Yeah, I don't have a problem seeing these people enter upper end junior or intermediate positions, it's them being made juniors and interns that smells like attempt to devalue artists work to me
@tidal moth well, to me "junior" meant not yet developed time/resource management skills (so yeah, slower work and less coherent work)
west sonnet
Most of these look normal for junior/intermediate level. A bit of a cream of the crop but not too out of place. They're still your competitors and colleague none the less. I didn't look at all of them but there isn't much breakdown detail. So who knows what they did for each composition. The intern one is definitely undervalue though
tidal moth
it's a consideration between how much a company has to invest into an employee versus how much an employee gives back
fickle hatch
But basically all of these scenes are made by people that in my eyes go above junior in those regards (these scenes are complex and involve a lot of time, many assets)
tidal moth
juniors usually need more support to work well until they get a hang of things
scene complexity is one thing, but speed is one of the most important aspects
fickle hatch
@west sonnet yeah I can sorta agree on junior, like, being a junior for 6 months and then moving into higher level sorta thing or anything else could be happening
west sonnet
it's a good example of making an eye catching composition for your portfolio at least
tidal moth
absolutely, it's the most eye catching
I do agree though that they are pretty much on par with what is expected of people in the industry
I think outside of art circles the standard deteriorates fast and you start seeing weird stuff from people who are not quite there yet
vocal meadow
how do you mean art circles?
tidal moth
communities that focus exclusively or almost exclusively on art
west sonnet
Now that's incredibly broad 😛
vocal meadow
Weirder things from programers in junior positions and stuff?
tidal moth
well considering this discord and the UE forums are focused on the engine and are pretty broad, those communities focus on just art
oh no, I meant people outside the industry who are making (game) art
west sonnet
That's still incredibly broad
tidal moth
I don't know what to tell you 🙂
west sonnet
I wish I could call my work "just art" but atlas, there's always far more complexity to "just art". As I'm sure fellow artist will agree with 😛
tidal moth
ah you meant how I narrow it down between disciplines?
or what did you mean by your argument?
vernal wolf
IT IS ALL JUST ART
timid stirrup
SO ARTISTIC
vernal wolf
hand painted, photo realistic, prop, environment, it doesn't matter
we can outsource it, figure out a style later
who needs aesthetic when you have the marketplace
vocal meadow
MP has a lot of chairs. Few come with proper simplified collision.
daring parrot
Slap an auto convex on and you've got so much room for activities!
(no need to verify it makes sense)
vocal meadow
(it'll be fine, no art in this sort of thing just science) /s
velvet quarry
What is the best way to start a game-development business or how would i get funding/marketing for a game currently in development? I dont exactly have a large team (2 devs and 2 artists). Should i start hiring professionals? Start a fundraiser? Pay for marketing? Create a teaser trailer?
Any help would be greatly appreciated, and yes i am sure i want to start my very own game company and game, no talking me out of it ;)
(Please do ping me)
west sonnet
Well, take a step back a bit. Have you registered your business? Do you understand the legal and financial responsibilities in accordance to your country’s law? Not talking you out, this is literally the first step.
velvet quarry
I havent yet and yes i do understand all the responsibilities and legal reasons, i havent registered it yet because i'm the only one really actively working on the game as well, the rest of my team are just freelancing for royalty, they dont treat it as a job. Hence why i also need skilled amd experienced people to help out but im afraid to start hiring just yet because i dont currently own the funds to do so and its a big gamble to put all my savings into a project of which im not sure whether it will work out or not.
lilac walrus
if you don't have funds, you can't hire
if you want to start a business, then you need to treat this project like a business
so the first step is registering, the next step is to set up some kind of business plan, and the third is to acquire adequate funding to follow the entirety of that business plan through
at the end of the day, you're going to need to be paying people, so ensuring you can do that is by far and large the first step
this does mean you're going to have to front a decent wedge of cash up front for things like solicitors fees, plus whatever expenses you incur whilst looking for funding
if you can start building before you look for funding it may help, but at the end of the day it's the business that people are interested in, nobody gives two craps about the game
daring parrot
everything is so relatively cheap compared to actually hiring people 😢
lilac walrus
solicitors are the worst of the bunch, £200+ per hour is not unusual
tidal moth
who knew that the best language to be able to speak would have been legalese
plucky hatch
Someday you want your business to have funds, so you need your business to look and be solid enough so people with those funds give or lend them to you. Being uncomfortable with risking your own money may deter people from risking theirs as well. Definitely get all the work in to make your organization legit, I typically hire a paralegal even though I have a business degree and have been through the process a few times. Once you get on a solid foundation, get ready to break all those hearts you made royalty deals with, your game probably cannot afford whatever you promised them for whatever work they are doing.
green oyster
@velvet quarry if you have a good gameplay and prototype, pitch to publishers? epic megagrants or indie-fund (or local incubators), government loans, push the game to beta and do early access or kickstarter?
lilac walrus
in all of those cases, having an established business & plan is more important
lilac walrus
Early Access / Kickstarter is usually a bad idea, tbh - you want your game sales to drive development of your next title, not the current one
velvet quarry
I wish i could just sell the game concept or just have it created, im so sure it'll be succesful if its anything like i imagine it to be, i just have trouble finding motivated colleagues willing to join me on the journey
lilac walrus
(well, it should actually drive development of the third - you should have the cash in the bank to do the second before even releasing the first)
velvet quarry
Exactly
green oyster
@velvet quarry It won't be. I think like 90% of the game concept is the implementation, aka it's 10% inspiration and 90% sweat
lilac walrus
the net value of an idea is usually about $0.02
green oyster
and nobody wants to sweat for somebody's else's idea
lilac walrus
aye, everyone has ideas, and everyone likes their own ideas better than someone else's
tidal moth
but guys, he is so sure that it is going to be a success!
green oyster
@lilac walrus Early Access / Kickstarter is usually a bad idea, tbh - you want your game sales to drive development of your next title, not the current one I think now it's used like marketing. The pitched games are almost finished and they use it to get followers or wishlists. If it succeeds, more visibility and money, if it fails they get a ton of visibility
lilac walrus
that's how a lot of people use it now
which isn't really what it was supposed to be for, but here we are
velvet quarry
Games like subnautica and dauntless got very succesful because of their early access
tidal moth
just because they beat the odds doesn't mean you will
lilac walrus
Subnautica was successful because it was developed by a team who had already shipped games and they were bankrolled by a publisher
up until last year Perfect World had the majority stake in their company
tidal moth
well realistically it's -0.02 dollars
lilac walrus
the result was $0.02
tidal moth
since you pay 2 cents to give your opinion
green oyster
@velvet quarry https://www.gamesradar.com/the-making-of-disco-elysium-how-zaum-created-one-of-the-most-original-rpgs-of-the-decade/ here's another idea, just sell your ferrari like these guys
lilac walrus
hmm, I wonder who bankrolled Dauntless
lilac walrus
entirely?
tidal moth
no idea
lilac walrus
it's a large team
flat gazelle
Knowing the talent they managed to hire, there must have been quite a few coins behind it.
lilac walrus
aye
tidal moth
probably combined with early access/kickstarter
flat gazelle
At least 4 ideas worth
lilac walrus
it's got private investment written all over it, I think
lilac walrus
might explains why as a free-to-play game they're exclusive to EGS, but it seems like an unusually big project for Epic to bankroll
tidal moth
I think behind the scenes epic is doing a lot of stress testing of the engine to see how far they can take it
Dauntless seems like an ideal candidate to stress test how to handle large scale server/client propagation
but what do I know
lilac walrus
surely they have Fortnite for that 😄
tidal moth
fortnite doesn't have the same scale though does it?
it's like 64 people per server or something?
tidal moth
no but it has non-instanced hubs
afaik
but I suppose that's not really stress testing that much
lilac walrus
main gameplay is 4 player instances, don't know about hubs, but they probably have a soft cap that's reasonably low
tidal moth
although I do think there has to be some sort of technological advantage for them
because honestly, dauntless isn't that great of an experience
but then again I haven't played the game at release, I played a beta a while back
lilac walrus
it's got to be a better experience than Monster Hunter World, which is what it's copying
the multiplayer in that is absolutely bonkers, nightmare to actually play
the implementation makes literally no sense
tidal moth
in monster hunter you mean?
lilac walrus
yeah
tidal moth
haven't played, so can't tell
networked multiplayer does seem to be a weak point for capcom in general though so I believe it
nova tartan
imagine playing through the game with friends
but they have cutscenes
you can't invite people to your room until you've seen the cutscenes
so all the people have to individually start their own missions, see the cutscenes, then quit out and join eachother
that's one example of how bad it is
west sonnet
I’m late to the party. As an note for establishing a business. Never gamble with your savings. Especially for game development. Games fail far more than they succeed.
crystal summit
never expect to be the next minecraft
if you manage to pull that off, great! but never for a second expect that that will be the case.
nova tartan
Yeah, I heard it described that people always underestimate what the worst case for sales is.
Thoughts like "If I can get only 1% it's great".
But the reality is the base case is zero sales. Expect zero sales until you do something amazing.
carmine siren
@idle obsidian Use #looking-for-talent for that, deleting it here.
tidal moth
@nova tartan this is so true, and people forget that
west sonnet
Set it to unpaid. For it is unpaid. You can specify in the description
It is still unpaid work.
You stated it is a barter of service. Money isn’t being exchanged
I would take it up with the <@&213101288538374145> if you are having any issues
vocal meadow
I don't like seeing job offerings on every channel personally.
There is one channel for it, reporting things does not make you a back seat moderator. there are rules and its rude to post like this.
west sonnet
Fairly sure this is a troll
carmine siren
This channel isn't for posting jobs. It's pretty simple. We have a job board for that. And what you are talking about falls within that.
How is LFT limited? If someone is interested in bartering with you they will DM you and you can take it from there.
daring parrot
if you stay and if early access/beta is successful seems to be the implied bit there.
carmine siren
Anyways this isn't relevant here. Feel free to leave your feedback in #server-feedback, but stop breaking the rules.
tidal moth
🍿
west sonnet
This is going into bat shit insane territory
green oyster
Did you smokw that pot now?
tidal moth
I have no words
daring parrot
I'd like to offer a tip then: since unpaid offerings are already viewed with suspicion you'll want to put your best foot forward and (at the very least) proofread before putting in an LFT post
ashen lynx
Can we like yeah ?
tidal moth
ah right, clearly a good reason to take you endeavor seriously, since you also seem to take it very seriously
vocal meadow
calling people pissy is a great way to find coworkers
west sonnet
If you’re intoxicated. Go enjoy it. Not talk to grumpies like us
tidal moth
if my eyes rolled any harder they would transcend the fabric of space
20 years of research... how many papers published?
west sonnet
The difference is between money already in the bank vs imaginary funds
tidal moth
what a badge of merit to wear
daring parrot
But what's your business acumen?
tidal moth
or games released? mods? anything?
daring parrot
acumen n.
the ability to make good judgments and quick decisions, typically in a particular domain.
Good products aren't guaranteed a cash reward at the finish line
ashen lynx
acumen increases your cast speed.
tidal moth
lmao
daring parrot
and you're asking people to depend on the earnings at that point
tidal moth
@ashen lynx daoc?
west sonnet
You’re asking other people to put themselves into financial risk. Would that not be unreasonable concern?
vocal meadow
do work now, get money later?
west sonnet
Maybe money later
vocal meadow
eat the food, lose the weight?
mystic storm
10% of $0
daring parrot
who's laying down the $100 for a steam app? 👀
tidal moth
tbh this does take me back to 2002 when people recruited on forums pretty much exactly like this
I'm not sure that's a compliment my dude
austere ibex
i need help with unreal engine anyone ? :P
vocal meadow
may be hard to understand the topic here daniel but #more-resources to find where to ask
it is all over the place
craggy nacelle
Tbh not sure if you're gonna attract a whole lot of actual talent with that website which hasn't even been proofread
austere ibex
ah ty
west sonnet
This is a very credit card mindset
daring parrot
110% proofread needed (hire a proofreader on royalties 🙏 )
gentle stone
what exactly is the problem here? ZeGypsy wanting to look for talent as 'paid' but wants to do rev share?
tidal moth
I don't know
mystic storm
honestly everyone here has given pretty constructive feedback: the "I have an idea now all i need is someone to do all the work for free" is a pretty common trope in gamedev and spamming all channels begging for talent isn't really appreciated
tidal moth
I feel like every time I try to make sense of it I get pulled deeper into madness
vocal meadow
You can go on discord and talk about the imaginary future money too, tell people to just join up and sound all predatorial in legal requirements to make money.
west sonnet
Absolutely no one knows what they’re talking about
carmine siren
@idle obsidian We have a "Royalty" tag. This is what you want since it is what you are offering. You may get lucky and find hobbiest or students that will work for the experience or the fun. Other than that I think this conversation has ran its course.
daring parrot
You lost me there
vocal meadow
sentence generator?
west sonnet
Please sit down. Take a nap. Watch tv. Anything.
Till your buzz is gone
daring parrot
Are you being realistic with yourself about the chances the game will be finished to an early access stage?
10% guaranteed of $0 is still $0
tidal moth
???
vocal meadow
PartlyAtomic keeps saying thoughtful things in response and it some how only confuses me more haha
west sonnet
I’m proud at how civil everyone is to this troll
tidal moth
I’m proud at how civil everyone is to this troll
I'm pretty sure he's for real
craggy nacelle
I looked at a few of the projects listed on your website and none of them were finished
so I'm not sure if I would trust this one getting finished either
west sonnet
I gotta hold some hope for humanity Cranz
There’s only one individual here throwing insults. Take a guess who it is 😜
daring parrot
gif?
west sonnet
I appreciate the enlightenment you’ve provided us
craggy nacelle
...this reminds me of those vides from the TempleOS dev
tidal moth
who was phone???
vocal meadow
conspiracy
daring parrot
we were left on a cliffhanger dangit
mystic storm
<@&213101288538374145> please do as @idle obsidian asks
fickle hatch
If you act normal I’ll give you more pot
carmine siren
Banned, thanks guys
daring parrot
now we look like the crazies in the chat log
vocal meadow
at least no one falls for that stuff now lol
plucky hatch
So how will it affect my career if I choose to agree with zegypsy?
west sonnet
you'll probably be drowning in crippling debt within the month
plucky hatch
Right but I can pay that off with royalty someday
west sonnet
pay your loans with more loans
daring parrot
no, you don't understand, it's a notarized contract the money just appears
vocal meadow
Some guy with glasses: It is easy to make big bucks from little games, all you need to do is buy in to my proven thought process.
daring parrot
(and if it's not enough, add mtx. Milk the stone.)
vocal meadow
Unsure if your joking @plucky hatch but yeah reality of any project generating income is no guarantee. You'll get into trouble if you start spreading yourself that thin. Game could even take off and pending what kind of contract you have, you could be cut out. So would exercise caution in taking anything royalty based, it shouldn't be money you rely on coming in.
crystal summit
wtf happened here?
vocal meadow
lol, there were lots of things between what lays currently in this channel that are gaping now.
crystal summit
tbh the guy seemed a bit weird, but what did he do to deserve a ban?
west sonnet
basically an intoxicated individual (I hope they were intoxicated anyway) was spouting some bat shit crazy nonsense, then attacking people
vocal meadow
all while being predatorial in his quest for free work
crystal summit
aw man why do I always miss it when that happens 😦
lilac walrus
aww, I missed the drama
gentle stone
not much you missed tbh :P
real thicket
[INTERNSHIP]
Hello Everyone,
I'm studying Game Engineering in the Netherlands and I'm looking for an internship for my third year of studies for one semester (from September 2020 to February 2021), I can go to any European country.
Is there anyone who has any advice for me, like how you found your first internship company? Or what's the best way to find an internship? I sent a lot of emails to many companies but I didn't get any positive reply.
Of course, If you work in a game company that has open positions for Game Programmers Intern and you would like to help me send me a message :)
This is my portfolio link, feel free to take a look: https://filippoleonardi.altervista.org/
Thanks for your attention!
craggy nacelle
I can't comment on the other stuff but I would suggest putting some specific examples of what you did to the portfolio projects... Eg. "I wrote an A* pathfinding algorithm" or something along those lines. This would make it a lot easier to have a look at a glance
nova tartan
Does it have to be EU? EA games and Ubisoft both had job postings for my computer science co op program semesters, but they are mostly in north america iirc
real thicket
Yes I know that North America would be better for this kind of things but at the same time it would be way more hard to go there because of the distance and the visa
lilac walrus
#looking-for-work - this isn't the place for it
as for internships, you're almost certainly going to have to apply directly
as an aside, this is our studio careers page;
https://www.dsfishlabs.com/ - I don't know if we take interns at all, I suspect not.
the parent company page is here;
https://jobs.kochmedia.com/eng/
craggy nacelle
There's a couple companies in Finland and Sweden too, those countries might not always be on folks' radar :)
lilac walrus
lots
craggy nacelle
DICE and Coffee Stain are in Stockholm I think
Remedy, Supercell and Rovio are in Helsinki
there's probably a few more too
lilac walrus
there are a truckload of companies in every Scandinavian country
Rovio and Remedy are in Espoo, not Helsinki
real thicket
yes I applied to a lot of companies in Stockholm and Helsinki. I'm going to apply to those companies as well, thank you!
craggy nacelle
Espoo is like a suburb of Helsinki tho lol
craggy nacelle
hehe maybe not :)
crystal summit
huh so ambershee is also from germany?
green oyster
@lilac walrus thats so cool, do you still have a romanian concept artist?
lilac walrus
we have a few concept artists, not sure where they're all necessarily from
tidal moth
plenty of UK companies as well, but I'm not sure how feasible that is with brexit coming up
worth a try either how
lilac walrus
I would be fairly averse to working in the UK right now as an EU resident / citizen
which is a shame, because a fairly significant part of the industry is in the UK
lilac walrus
yes
real thicket
yes Brexit is a big problem 😪
tidal moth
how is working in a EU country affecting you? just out of curiosity
as in, are they gonna put you on a train
lilac walrus
I'm in Germany, so I'm totally fine
I did however leave the Czech Republic because my rights weren't guaranteed
tidal moth
yeah that's fair
lilac walrus
but here all I had to do was walk into an office with a rental contract to prove I lived here, and now I have residence papers
job. done.
crystal summit
neat
tidal moth
I do kind of miss the fact that germany was so open. I don't miss much of the german bureaucracy though
lilac walrus
yeah, the bureaucracy isn't fun
plucky hatch
@real thicket one trick a college student can employ is to ask executives in the industry to give you an informational interview as research for a college project. during those meetings you can ask directly how to find internships in the industry, after of course you ask great questions pertaining to your project.
lilac walrus
I can't imagine many execs making time for such an interview
plucky hatch
It was routine when I studied business.
real thicket
@plucky hatch very nice tip! Thank you :)
plucky hatch
make sure you have a real project, no one likes being lied to.
craggy nacelle
You can actually get lunch or coffee meetings with busy people by asking :) They need to eat and have coffee too, so although maybe not everyone won't say yes to it, it's definitely a thing
tidal moth
haven't heard of such thing in the industry
lilac walrus
Me neither, heck, I seldom even go out for lunch, haha
tidal moth
it'd be interesting if it was the case
lilac walrus
But a lot of people do eat out, so that's not strictly the norm
tidal moth
the thing is there's a gap between people who want to get into the industry and people who are in the industry
which I think is not unlike celebrities vs. fans
even though it's a far smaller gap
but it does make for strange interactions in the case of making time for coffee
the best I've done so far is to act as a judge for pitches made by game dev students
and there was definitely apprehension on the side of the students to approach me and talk to them based on their pitches/projects after the main presentation event
lilac walrus
I turn up to the indie Dec meetings here sometimes
People have no idea who I am so it's easier for them to start a conversation
tidal moth
that's true, but if they don't know you then equally they can't ask you for a coffee 😉
tidal moth
"hello random person please have a coffee with me"
lilac walrus
Mostly not amazing, but students seldom are
tidal moth
I think it varies
lilac walrus
The barrier for entry for art now is outrageously high
tidal moth
the university I was at I was quite impressed with the level of polish they managed to pull off as students, and cohesion in their games
that is true
lilac walrus
Most students need a good couple of years to match other entry level candidates now :/
tidal moth
I would have thought you'd be more interested in design candidates though?
lilac walrus
Personally, yes, but they don't often exist tbh
Most sidestep from another discipline after breaking in
plucky hatch
well let me take you out to coffee then
tidal moth
which one of us?
plucky hatch
depends on the cost of living in your area
west sonnet
Never heard of this ever happening in the game industry
Students are scared of me too to be fair
mystic storm
I have given students who asked a tour of the studio etc. But then they are in a class that I teach and not just a random person asking.
vocal meadow
Is coffee a relaxing thing for most people?
west sonnet
That’s another thing
I don’t know many devs who drink caffeine. They know better 😜 wonder if that’s a norm or coincidence
vocal meadow
"Let's get all jittery and overly talkative" is the idea right?
west sonnet
More of a, “this conversation won’t last longer than however long it takes to drink”
lilac walrus
Half the people in my office at fuelled by caffeine
digital gate
with all the methods around to intake caffeine here, I'd say at least one of us consistently drinks it
mystic storm
I feel that communal drug use is a fundamental part of human social interaction
and caffeine is one of the only drugs that is socially acceptable to consume at work
west sonnet
Let us all drink natural insecticide together
vocal meadow
Caffeine withdrawal headaches are the worst. When people say Excedrin is the only thing that works, its because of the caffeine in it.
Otherwise, hot drinks are nice yes.
craggy nacelle
I used to get a headache from it but after going on and off drinking caffeinated stuff a few times I no longer get it :P
tidal moth
coffee/tea/non alcoholic hot or cold beverage, it's all semantics
I have a cup a day in the morning
or try to limit myself to one cup I should say
but never past noon
flat gazelle
Lol at the "there are studios in stockholm" revelation.
Also, it's not uncommon for me to lunch with curious people. Usually I used to work with and so on but random have happened
Ubisoft mostly I north America... French company. Well then
west sonnet
What? Do they randomly sit at your table. You have some secret admirers if that’s the case 😜
Actually, people finding out studio hangouts isn’t uncommon now that I think about it
flat gazelle
Or discord people saying, hey I am in town. Coffee?
And gamedev pub nights usually attract eager students
west sonnet
That sounds like a situation ripe for hilarity and awkwardness
flat gazelle
yup
vocal meadow
Are there stories shared?
Most invitations to food I've received have resulted in a lot of listening
tidal moth
maybe after the third drink
it takes a while to get past the awkward silence
or whichever drink is the point where people warm up to other people
flat gazelle
Totally depends on the person
Some people are just very awkward and it goes nowhere.
Others act like one of the guys and are super easy to talk to
One of these types have more success than the other
tidal moth
it also depends on the environment
generally being in a foreign country you're bonding more with other foreign people about being foreign
vocal meadow
I've been the awkward person before, sometimes its unexpected to have difficulty with that stuff.
chit chat etc. But yeah, it's life
tidal moth
yeah it's not always easy to get a vibe going, but I feel like it's different when you get people talking about stuff they're passionate about, especially if there's a mutual passion
nova tartan
Every office I've been too has one or more people who are waaay to into coffee and end up getting everyone else more into coffee
gotta grind them artisanal beans by hand and put them through a special press idk I don't drink tea or coffee
tidal moth
I'm not really into the artisanal stuff, but I did find out that Ethiopian beans taste different than Colombian beans
but my favorite is really just terrible, nondescript black coffee
anyway probably not really a topic for this place unless we're talking about careers as a barista... which I guess is always plan B
tacit siren
can never be too much into coffee
digital gate
tldr: be waaaay more into coffee than the exec you've walked up to and sat down next to
bronze dew
how to make friends: describe in detail why Civet coffee is the best ever!
west sonnet
exhibit 1: look at how cute they are. Coffee from fecal matter is always a lovely conversation starter
daring parrot
earthy flavour
vocal meadow
it looks tired
lilac walrus
you'd look tired if you pooped coffee all day
vocal meadow
Poor feller
shadow swallow
So found out my computer teacher used to work in google he showed us proof it makes me mad to this day for some reason
livid heath
daring parrot
Why does it make you mad?
narrow scaffold
guys anyone know if coding tests are about speed? I solve the problems within the time limit they give yet i still get rejected. There is 0 feedback on the performance and i cant exactly see how i did, so the only reason i can think of is how long i took to solve the problem.
nova tartan
speed, solution, thought process
I've had people relentlessly ask me questions trying to get me to solve it for them, they might eventually make it to the end but hell no I'm not hiring you.
Others jump right to how to solve the problem with code that also runs fast
craggy nacelle
That probably depends somewhat on the test... at least what I've usually looked for is just overall ability to solve a problem and things like does your code suck or not :D (I don't professionally do game dev mind you)
nova tartan
After interviewing dozens of people you get a pretty decent picture on how good someone is at solving these kinds of technical problems and you can spot the weaker ones pretty quickly
sometimes they are just really nervous
lilac walrus
I would not usually care about speed, so long as the test is returned within the agreed time limit
I would more be looking at accuracy (can you follow instructions and deliver results), as well as general code quality (is it legible, is it well written / architected)
narrow scaffold
so the best thing i can do is practice random questions on sites like leetcode and hope i get a similar problem on the test?
nova tartan
Practice and experience help a lot.
craggy nacelle
It might be a good idea to try and work on an actual project and not just do leetcode. Gives you a different perspective and more realistic experience
nova tartan
That is also useful
Some of the most "you're obviously hired" interviews I've done with people felt like I was discussing things with a co worker already
narrow scaffold
thing is these coding tests arent even close to game dev
they are more geared towards comp sci
so the code i normally use like vectors and stuff doesnt exactly translate well
timber hare
I just want to find a real job for an animator like me
violet plover
@narrow scaffold and most people I've known with 'masters in computer sci' have been shit at game dev lol
vocal meadow
Integration at a wild unclear and frequent delta seconds is something few more occupations require with programming
obsidian terrace
@narrow scaffold I'm in the same boat, every coding test I get seems to require compsci knowledge over gamedev. I don't get it either
Apparently it's a thing in the industry and no one uses those skills after they pass the tests 🙄
plucky hatch
It is easy to understand and ambershee gave you the answer. "you are not paying for what i do, you are paying for what i know." a code test is to see if you know how to write proper code.
nova tartan
Part of it is also how wide ranging your knowledge is
Can you setup a database?
Can you setup and maintain servers? What about a website?
What if we completely change the game we are making? Will you be able to go from making a puzzle game to a platformer?
etc.
It's hard to call any specific part of programming "Game dev" because in theory it could all be useful for games depending on the game
tidal moth
not sure why you are raging over the fact that there is a bar set and you can't get past it instead of trying to do better?
narrow scaffold
who's raging
tidal moth
certainly that's not an attitude you wanna see in a coworker
plucky hatch
a less formal answer to the question is to say they are trying to estimate how much time they will lose fixing your bugs compared to how much time they will lose fixing someone with an educations bugs.
narrow scaffold
all i was doing was point out the face yes coding tests are good to test basic knowledge but then why are they so focused on comp sci problems instead of solving game related problems
tidal moth
game related problems are solved by game designers
narrow scaffold
i'd love to meet your designer then hook me up
tidal moth
see if you can pass the tests first
narrow scaffold
will do will do
nova tartan
Game related problems are comp sci problems too
"You notice that the game slows to a crawl in this room, here is the code that runs in the room, tell us what's wrong"
That's basically a comp sci problem, maybe the data structures are inefficient or it's performing a lot of unnecessary steps
One skill to develop is learning how to transfer your knowledge from one area to another, if you have schooling, do you know how to apply it?
Or vice versa, if most of your experience is on the job, can you transfer that knowledge into general academic solutions to use them elsewhere?
narrow scaffold
hmm i see thanks for the clarification
lilac walrus
eh, if you have a performance problem in a single room, it's usually a design problem
nova tartan
Maybe that's the answer, "your designer spawned 600 enemies in one frame of course it won't work"
lilac walrus
if you have a performance problem in a particular scenario that is repeatable elsewhere, it's usually a technical problem
vocal meadow
yeah, i kind of get what you mean kaushal139 but its all the same. Just with games you know you can't afford things like map<string,string>
your allowed to apply all the knowledge you learn to gaming though, so yeah its worthy of knowing more
nova tartan
Wouldn't Map<String, String> use a hash function and be reasonably fast? Not that you'd want to use one because it's just unnecessary extra work
vocal meadow
hash still needs compare
nova tartan
yeah but isn't comparing two hashes like
instant
O(1)
it's the hash function itself that takes a little while, converting the string to a hash
but I don't think that's going to take a large amount of time overall, just a few mathematical operators
vocal meadow
well you match the hashes then compare the values
FName is the reason you don't use strings
its essentially an internal integer for every string uniquely
gross c++ in career-chat
nova tartan
Why is it comparing the values? isn't matching the hash considered sufficient?
or is that how it deals with collisions
vocal meadow
idea of hashing things is to get fast rejection. hashes aren't necessarily unique in nature, but when they don’t match you need not compare to find they do not equate. Still have to check that the values match.
uneven leaf
Hello everyone! I am going to RMCAD for environment design, and I was wondering how important it is for an artist to know optimization. Does anyone have insight into this?
tidal moth
pretty important, but I don't know what environment design is as a discipline, or what RMCAD is
uneven leaf
Rocky Mountain College of Art + Design in Denver, CO. I want to create the landscapes/towns/props/etc. for levels. As far as I'm aware, but correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that role is called an Environment Artist at most studios
tidal moth
environment artist sure, but environment designer is misleading
lilac walrus
aye, there is no such title
level designer / environment artist / concept artist
three different roles
uneven leaf
oops, my bad. I meant Environment Artist, since lvl designer is more the programmer end, correct?
uneven leaf
anything you think I should focus on specifically? I've been working on my own open world project so I'm trying to hit 144+ fps for the lvl.
tidal moth
focus on keeping fidelity high with costs low
shaders and materials cost more than polygons, so I suppose that's something to live by
west sonnet
Wrong chat. Go to #ue4-general or #graphics and read #more-resources if you need reference in the future
pallid wedge
hello, someone knows a good resource (udemy or other) to learn Unreal's C++? please something advanced, not basic that explain the for loop or what is an array 🙂
tidal moth
@pallid wedge you could try looking up tutorials for simple game systems like an inventory system or such like
otherwise I'd definitely recommend also trying creating some interesting data structures yourself (e.g. a priority queue)
pallid wedge
you are right, but on youtube there are a ton of these tutorial with doubt quality
tidal moth
it's true
pallid wedge
exatcly, I need something releated to data structures, or learn the C++ unreal syntax
tidal moth
then I definitely recommend trying to implement a Priority Queue (which is a great utility structure, in my opinion) or try and recreate an A* or dijkstra's algorithm
for the tutorials, a good test of your architectural abilities would be to glean the idea behind the inventory system from something like a BP tutorial, and see if you can use the information to create a proper architecture for the system behind the scenes, with properly exposed values etc.
exposing nodes I think is super relevant
pallid wedge
ok thanks
lilac walrus
when using youtube for programming tutorials, you're probably only ever going to find things of dubious quality
explaining any code of decent complexity in a video, is well, not really going to work :/
tidal moth
I do agree
I think the test is to filter and abstract what those tutorials are saying and use that as a base
pallid wedge
ofc, I try to consider youtube such as the last resource
tidal moth
it worries me a little that I'm starting to sound like my old CS professor
vocal meadow
Lol
pallid wedge
I also tried the gamedev unreal c++ course, but is soo slow
tidal moth
back when I was studying he gave me examples like these that I found incredibly hard to pull off because I didn't know where to start
nova tartan
I use youtube tutorials to tell me how unreal does things and use my dev experience to actually architect it properly
bronze dew
Reminder. Most places that have tutorials, the video can be speed up 🙂
round drum
Hey all, I'm currently looking to do some free programming work (c++ preferred) to get some portfolio work as well as some actual working experience. Does anyone know a good place to search for that?
nova tartan
You could contribute to popular open source projects on github, find some issues and fix them
Then it will show up on your github and getting pull requests accepted to them is often higher standards than normal in house development
vocal meadow
@round drum could check #looking-for-talent but be careful
round drum
I'm a little familiar with GitHub as I've used it for smaller projects but do you usually get feedback on your contributions on bigger projects?
I really want to get feedback on my contributions so I can improve my code. That's why I am looking for smaller projects but I will definitely check it out for some portfolio work
vocal meadow
what would be an example of a bigger project?
tidal moth
I'd be very wary of #looking-for-talent generally, unless it's an established company
pastel estuary
or when its me :p
cosmic quarry
@arctic atlas it doesnt say if its engine based or not
since it doesnt say its generic
arctic atlas
for example
epic games software Engineer is blueprint and c++ scripting?
@cosmic quarry yes?
cosmic quarry
i would think it would be one in the same. but mainly C++
cosmic quarry
np
i personally do not know if epic hires people who only know blueprints
i highly doubt it but i could be wrong
tidal moth
unlikely unless you're a designer
cosmic quarry
yeah
tidal moth
and in that case it'll be a tiny part of your skillset
sudden island
Am designer in the industry now, can confirm that I use a lot of excel
sick elbow
Does anyone have any experience with pre-visualization for movie studios? Here is a great example from John Wick III.
hasty glade
@sick elbow it is more of a concept art visualisation in VR rather than pre-visualization. pre-visualization is animated concept of the entire or a part of the scene made before the actual production.
sick elbow
I'll remember the terminology moving forward. Seems like a pretty lucrative career working as a real-time concept artist within a studio
hasty glade
west sonnet
That's a very niche job for the game industry
sick elbow
The John Wick video above showcases the type of career I am looking to learn more about. Not in the game industry but as an in house real time artist focusing on films, set production, etc
tidal moth
as much as it's an UE4 related thing, I think this forum is made up predominantly of game devs, not film devs. I'm not sure where to point you to
vocal meadow
Are there many studios doing this sort of thing @sick elbow ?
vocal meadow
film studios
I'm predominantly of game devs too so I'm not positive but, given how niche it sounds you might be talking about like countable places you'd be applying to
tidal moth
I think outsourcing studios would be the first place
I don't know anything about the industry other than I heard it's hard to get into
so I figure outsourcing studios would handle it from afar
hasty glade
@sick elbow than john wick concept you saw in VR is not a everyday thing required, so studios may not hire a specialist for that job, any 3D artist can get that work done., if you interested to know more DM me.
west sonnet
Indeed. A studio will always hire a generic 3D artist before a 3D concept artist. The former offers production ready deliverables afterall. Any studio that can afford a 3D concept artist has the luxury to do so, not for necessity. Which narrows down potential employers to well known and well established companies. Said establishments will also only pick the cream of the crop. Again, they have the luxury.
This is far from being a lucrative career path needless to say. You will be competing for a very niche position with little employment options. It will be a case of putting 100% into that career path and more. Way more.
mellow dust
I heard this alot online but i dont know what degree to go for. I'm basically planning for the future, and trying to decide between a computer science degree and a video game degree. I just want to know which is better rn for working in the video game industry, thanks.
agile birch
I heard this alot online but i dont know what degree to go for. I'm basically planning for the future, and trying to decide between a computer science degree and a video game degree. I just want to know which is better rn for working in the video game industry, thanks.
@mellow dust I don't trust video game education programs. They seem (mostly) predatory and opportunistic to young people's desires. Unless we are talking about Digipen or something on that scale with proven employability records. Even then, I'd recommend to go for a specialization (in your case, a programming background in computer science). That way, you have options in and out the industry.
BTW I was faculty at a university here in Chile for 6 years on design and animation fields, and even those seem too niche, too crowded and too snake oily for my taste.
mellow dust
@agile birch Thanks for the response, ill definitely keep that in mind !
agile birch
Also, the video game industry requires specialized people, or at least T structured professionals. So aim for programs that prepare you for that. I work in the industry, so take that advice as you will :)
mellow dust
@agile birch Thanks !
plucky hatch
I would caution against a video game degree. You want your education credentials to be broad enough to qualify you many types of work. Supplementing your education with more specific disciplines, like a video game degree, is a great idea. Education is not the same as Vocational Training, but they are very similar. It seems like these video game degrees are trying to be both and most likely fall short on both.
flat gazelle
Wrt the John wick example, this is something I've looked into a bit. Virtual production is still in an early adoption phase, but I wager it will become quite commonplace within five years.
And non game realtime rendering overall.
tidal moth
@mellow dust it depends also on the role you're looking to fill. if you're a programmer, taking a CS education with some electives in game (engine) programming probably wouldn't be a bad call. if you're looking to be a designer or artist, vocational schools or programs that focus on vocation in terms of education are your best option. there's a few universities by now that I've seen do some excellent programs that tie into this, but a lot seem to hold theory higher than practice... which is just detrimental to what you're trying to do.
mellow dust
Thanks for the suggestions guys !
sick elbow
Thanks for all of the insight
I found this resource late last night in regards to Virtual Production. Epic Games released this not too long ago. It provides a lot of information regarding the topic.
flat gazelle
Mandalorian got final pixel for some shots using UE4 and used it for virtula production for a lot more
similar to this
mystic hull
Hey career chat, been a while! 😄
leaden harness
Jon Faveau seems to be all in about virtual production. He used VR for the Lion King, as well as Mandalorian as mentioned above. I guess really depends on the team behind the project. The director and cinematographer of 1917 did the opposite, all sets were planned on paper and even created in miniature form first to test out lighting and camera positions movements.
sudden island
Virtual production stuff you usually will find work for in normal VFX studios
since a lot of them like Weta, Animal Logic etc. now have realtime divisions
plucky hatch
How do I register the copyright for my game? :3
acoustic anvil
copyright is mostly automatic on fixation
aka, when you publish it for the first time
though as usual, it seems the US is different for the sake of making things complicated 😮
plucky hatch
hmm...
nova tartan
there isn't a legal channel hmm this or industry chat i guess would be closest
plucky hatch
Hi what is the consensus on selling art and also using it in my game
tidal moth
also not really the channel
plucky hatch
Can I put a caveat in my art saying that people can use it but aren't allowed to copyright it?
ok where is best
plucky hatch
I see self employment as a career so I thought this was best
tidal moth
this is for career advice
pastel estuary
@plucky hatch besides the #old-rules it might be wise to read the topic to see whats what
fickle hatch
@plucky hatch uhhh, nobody can copyright it if you're the author
There is a certain limited amount of what someone can do if you sign a contract and transfer most of your author rights
For anything else, highlight me in #lounge or something
west sonnet
Now imagine how terrible a legal chat would be
tidal moth
generally it's a bit harder to ascertain where some questions go when they aren't directly related to unreal or game development
@west sonnet depends on where the discord server is based
if it's in the US, litigation galore
west sonnet
Legal advice from strangers in general is a terrible idea
vocal meadow
ya
tidal moth
are you saying you can't just slap a video on youtube called "speed lawyering" the same way people put up videos of "speed level design"?
west sonnet
One can get you into serious trouble, the other just forms bad habits at worst 😜
vocal meadow
this is very very true
tidal moth
I can't get the thought out of my head of a lawyer, one of the most deliberate professions of our time, attempting to outspeed other lawyers at litigation
it'd be a race of snails
fickle hatch
This lawyering stuff would've driven our civilization into the ground if humans weren't so lazy
The amount of litigation that exists anywhere in the world is truly insane, but at least nobody actually bothers to follow the law properly
mystic storm
@tidal moth tune into cspan right now and see it first hand 🙃
vocal meadow
well, interpretation of the law is the thing everyone is trying to do
barren lotus
You guys shun people from asking for legal advice in a career channel and then proceed to talk about bad legal videos 
west sonnet
I discourage general legal advice anywhere
tidal moth
hypothetical bad legal videos, excuse me
west sonnet
We’re not lawyers
vocal meadow
to be fair though, lawyers aren't always the best with advice either
tidal moth
on a serious note it is perhaps a good thing to keep this a game dev channel/discord and not a legal one
well perhaps not the free advice anyway
fickle hatch
There are plenty of copyright related things that aren't strictly legal subjects that I don't see as bad to discuss
tidal moth
"pro bono is for suckers!"
west sonnet
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t
vocal meadow
100%
fickle hatch
Thanks to international agreements, there are a lot of copyright related basics that are uniform everywhere
And thanks to same agreements, you can violate some old copyright things outside of specific countries >.>
west sonnet
Not sure why copyright discussion was slapped, I agree with that
vocal meadow
blackfox copyright is actually highly interpretive by the different circuits
tidal moth
and we've come full circle
west sonnet
Guess move to #industry-chat ?
fickle hatch
I'll move to starting to do my work
mellow dust
what subjects to take for IGCSE to study cs
nova tartan
I'm not 100% on what courses you can take but:
mathematics and statistics(as many courses as you can)
physics
computer science and any other computer programming courses they may offer
english(you want to be good at technical communication)
art/design and music if you want to understand those aspects of video game creation a bit better, not necessary to learn software development but useful
steel quest
Computer Science in IGCSE is very good
You can take both the O Level and A Level (A level is actually REALLY good)
You also need mathematics O Level and A Level (in A Level I would opt to take Discrete Mathematics instead of Mechanics 2)
nova tartan
discrete math is important for sure
mellow dust
Alright Thanks !
tidal moth
discrete math is important for sure
@nova tartan yeah but we're not supposed to talk about it
bronze dew
learning math properly.. and having a decent level of competency with it will serve you very well... it's my biggest regret for my own work
of course the ability to use it in practice is essential also 😉
mellow dust
Thanks !
tough fox
Lmao
sudden island
Honestly, the most important thing is to learn how to learn
like, if you can do that, and then apply it
you'll be sweet
and learn how to find out what you need to learn too
to achieve a goal
both are important
hollow heart
Question to all, do people contract Freelance level designers. I mean a designer who blockmeshes and can prototype/implement events in script?
I've heard of freelance artists and programmers but not level designers
tidal moth
most big companies hire through temporary contracts, so yes
the job security of a permanent contract is something one needs to work towards
west sonnet
Good news is that many crappy employers don’t realize they need a level designer anyway
west sonnet
“You just decorate the level yeah?”
west sonnet
Needless to say. It’s a very easy warning flag to nope out of there
tidal moth
yeah for small time employers the prospects aren't great for LDs
even if you get into a genuinely good spot, the contracts are often short
fickle hatch
"Are you a level designer? Can you place these chairs all around the map then?"
tidal moth
fickle hatch
I'm so glad that we don't need a level designer. Our levels were designed 50-70 years ago xD
fickle hatch
It's a subway train simulator. Based on real world with a high degree of precision. Very little extra level design needed, mostly just taking what exists for real and finding ways to map it into the game in the ways that give the best workflow
tacit siren
you do need a good AI for rats tho 🙂
hollow heart
interesting. I'd like to freelance my skillset to smaller projects if possible while I'm job hunting for a permanent design job. So if it does exist, how would I go about seeking such freelance opportunities?
lilac walrus
Keep an eye on job boards, places like here, on the forums etc
Building up contacts etc. helps a lot
It's not uncommon for new clients to come through people you've worked with before
hollow heart
how would I gain access on the job board here? Also, where else could I find a job board for freelancing? Game dev servers
pastel estuary
the #old-rules state to check the pinned message in the looking for work/talent channels. so... check the pinned messages!
wraith tiger
How do i post something in #looking-for-talent ?
frosty nimbus
See #more-resources
wraith tiger
Thx
hollow heart
thanks!
wide swallow
Any character/prop texture artist mind giving me a few mins of their time? I have some questions i'd like answered. (Voice chat pref)
latent dragon
Hey guys! I'm working on an art portfolio and i really want to make it as an interactable .exe file instead of a video. Would you find this weird as an employed in the industry?
3D environment art
brittle rune
@latent dragon probably, some people would not trust openning and exe, especially studios
mystic storm
@latent dragon the real problem with an exe is distribution @brittle rune is right, nobody will run an exe on their own computer
latent dragon
Good to know, i can make it a video aswell
brittle rune
@latent dragon you may have a link in your portfolio to an exe if you want, but Im not sure if worth time spent
latent dragon
i figured i wanted to make a 3 sided vertical slice, showing off 3 vastly different art styles. But i want to make it interactable so that the studios can choose what they want to look closer at
Being realistic, Medium poly stylized and with the last being a combination of fabric, paper and cardboard
But ill take your advice and make it a video render instead. its a good tip
west sonnet
Unfortunately, hiring managers don't have the time to view work that closely unless you've made it far into the vetting process. The idea is to give an impression within less than 30 secs of looking at a portfolio. That being said, the effort will be appreciated but you're better off using sketchfab.
latent dragon
Currently ill be applying for an internship position. But i can make it a 30 second video as well. I just want to show them that i have an understanding of more than just the visual aspects. Topology and performance for instance