career-chat

[coarse ember]

No. A court found them guilty

[bleak dagger]

No that was for the plagiarism

"Trade secrets"

[coarse ember]

https://fandomwire.com/unlike-palworld-dark-and-darker-isnt-being-sued-for-copyright-infringement-but-it-still-gets-fined-of-around-6-million/

Copyright was dismissed

Still don't know what data or how it was it used

(for the trade secrets)

[bleak dagger]

The alegations were that they copy pasted project files

[coarse ember]

Here we go https://www.mk.co.kr/en/business/11484635

"The appeals court determined that the program, source code, and build files of Nexon's undisclosed project P3 all constituted identifiable trade secrets, and extended the protection period from two years to two and a half years. Nevertheless, the court limited P3’s contribution to the development of Dark and Darker to 15%, which resulted in a lower damages amount."

[coarse ember]

They couldn't claim for copyright as the games weren't similar enough (at least visually). But looks like trade secrets covered the work done on the project (source code etc)

[bleak dagger]

Using exactly the same code = copyright infringment, got thrown out of the window
Using trade secrets is what got them in trouble

[coarse ember]

My guess is that they built on top of existing project files from P3

[bleak dagger]

But they didnt

[coarse ember]

Source?

[bleak dagger]

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/dark-and-darker-developer-ironmace-raided-by-korean-police

[coarse ember]

I'm struggling to get all the details on the court case

[woeful iron]

it doesn't even have to be project files though, could be anything from market research to design decisions to whatever

[bleak dagger]

Nothing was found on the sacked hardware, no source code or project files
Afterwards they released their complete asset list and parts of their code which differed from p3 greatly

[woeful iron]

I'm not sure what this whole conversation is about though

we started about non compete, but clearly trade secret infringement can be prosecuted without those non competes as by your own example

[bleak dagger]

I was just playing devils advocate for the non competes

[coarse ember]

That news story doesn't say that though?

[chilly sundial]

but a non compete doesn't change anything about lifting direct files from one company and using them elsewhere

that's just theft

[coarse ember]

But the issue here is not non competes, it's taking previous companies data which at least breaks NDA at the very least

All this said, people thinking they can take an idea/prototype from an existing company they worked at, spawn a new company and work on something very similar is very dicey territory

I was actually looking at a pitch for a new studio where they were going to leave somewhere and form a new studio making games in the same market

They were pretty high up on org chart before so surprised there wasn't a non compete

[bleak dagger]

It does because it forbids you to work on a similar project for a certain amount of time so you can guarantee your code wont get stolen

[chilly sundial]

but you can't guarantee

not being able to work for someone else for 6 months doesn't magically delete files off someone's harddrive

[coarse ember]

Turns out in that country, you can't add non competes and this was above board

[bleak dagger]

There s no 100% but no dev wants to pay the insane fee for breaking contract

[coarse ember]

A non compete won't stop code being stolen

[chilly sundial]

and someone willing to steal from a company (committing a crime) probably isn't going to be bothered by breaking a non compete (an often unenforcable and illegal clause)

[coarse ember]

If some one wants to steal your code, a contract isn't going to stop them

[bleak dagger]

No but it adds way more punishment

[coarse ember]

They can just sell it to another team/company if they've gone that far

[chilly sundial]

it really doesn't

[woeful iron]

and again, non competes are very rarely enforceable

[bleak dagger]

It really does

[coarse ember]

Nah, the stealing of code pretty massively outranks breaking a contract

[chilly sundial]

again, given most non competes aren't actually clauses that you can enforce, and even if you could, it's nothing on the literal crime you're committing

that's kinda like saying signing a contract that says you won't embezzle makes the punishment for embezzlement much worse

[bleak dagger]

Its a civil matter then, if you still do it you have to pay the fee for breaking contract

[chilly sundial]

if it's even enforceable, which it often isn't

[coarse ember]

Tiny in comparison to stealing the code

[chilly sundial]

you can't just put whatever in a contract and it's legally binding

[coarse ember]

If someone stole my code, the last thing I would be concerned about is going after a non compete clause

[woeful iron]

it's like those people posting on facebook like "I hereby do not grant permission to meta to use my data" and shit like that

just cause you say it doesn't make it so

https://tenor.com/view/i-declare-bakruptcy-bankrupt-yelling-announce-declare-gif-15663557

[chilly sundial]

i have declared it and thus it is enforceable and true

that being said, i hereby declare i own the entire continent of europe

[coarse ember]

I understand where you are coming from though

[bleak dagger]

If you sign a contract you are bound by it, if you yell something i nthe void you are not

[coarse ember]

Unless the clauses are not legally enforceable

[bleak dagger]

Guess it depends on your country and state laws

[coarse ember]

Plenty of contracts have clauses that aren't enforceable

Main reason I have a lawyer go through my employment contracts

[woeful iron]

not if the contract is illegal

[coarse ember]

In the US, I'm under the impression that a contract cannot supersede state or federal law?

[woeful iron]

e.g. if you sign a contract for someone to rob someone else, that contract is not enforceable as doing so would constitute a crime

[chilly sundial]

i'd be surprised if there's literally anywhere on earth where you can put anything you want in a contract and it's legally binding

otherwise we'd have heard about "that country where it's employers make employees sign ritual sacrifice clauses"

[grave cove]

contravene would probably be a better word.
they can definitely enforce things that aren't ruled on by state/federal law.

[bleak dagger]

Not if its illgal by country / state laws but non competes are not illegal in most parts of the world

[coarse ember]

The bottom line is that you can't stop someone committing an illegal act such as taking company property after they leave

[bleak dagger]

But you can make them suffer for it

[coarse ember]

Yes such as the law

The contract is not a factor in this

[chilly sundial]

they already suffer, because it's a crime

any breach of contract settlement pales in comparison to what essentially boils down to Corporate Espionage Lite™

especially if that breach of contract is in breach of a clause that while may not be flat out illegal everywhere, may be unenforceable

[woeful iron]

e.g. in belgium they are heavily restricted though, like there are salary thresholds that the person under contract must meet, and they have to pay 50% of your salary during the non compete period, limitide in time and area and such things

and it's only possible for a certain subset of companies too

which is why you never see them for most people, only for extremely strategic key employees

[coarse ember]

Non competes are generally reserved for high level positions like C level where the impact is much higher

[woeful iron]

in the USA they just be like oh shit you wanna work in a wendy's? Ok, but only if you never work in any industry related to food anywhere in the USA in the coming 480 years

[coarse ember]

An senior engineer is unlikely to be able to move the needle at a new company in a significant way

[chilly sundial]

yeah, that's where they make sense. No one wants an operator of the company spilling the beans at the head of another.
and when you get into that territory, you can afford to pay to keep them quiet anyway

Even if programmer #63 was to lift some secrets, unless they're running their own show, their contribution is going to fall on deaf ears
"hey i lifted this from my previous employer"
"Are you nuts, are you trying to get us shut down?! Just follow the damn TDD. Actually, better idea, you're fired"

[coarse ember]

Reading the dark and darker case details where they are comparing the width of doors between P3 and DnD being the same to 6 decimal places 😅

Reminds me of this https://youtu.be/aUgjVSN8HqE?si=8BkwuyP5DPvjDpm5

[chilly sundial]

I remember when it was being talked about in the asset list, and a lot of the "stolen assets" were just marketplace packs

That being said, if a ruling was issued, clearly there was something dodgy afoot

[coarse ember]

Also reminds me of what we needed to do to get the app stores to take down a similar game to ours where we were comparing colour palettes to ours being almost the exact same

I do understand the point you are trying to put across where a non compete could be easier to enforce than having to go deep into courts to prove theft

"you are working on a similar title at the new company, I'm going to enforce the non compete"

Just feels like the tail wagging the dog

[bleak dagger]

How am i brainwashed? Breach of contract is a civil matter , wtf

1 + 1 = 2

"Ahahhahaha omg your so brainwashed"

https://tenor.com/view/umm-umm-ok-awkward-awkward-silence-silence-gif-7230162635292507033

[neat garden]

[round radish]

But you can't make contract terms that are against the law. Maybe there's something there?

An NDA can't stop you reporting crimes to the police and so on.

[bleak dagger]

A non compete is not against the law.

A nda can still force you to shut up about everything not illega, if you break that you go to civil court where they throw 234023 lawyers at you and then youve gotta pay either a generic fee of whatever was written in the contract

Atleast in my country but i dont think its much different anywhere else

[round radish]

Depends on the country, I guess, but yeah, I doubt it's illegal anywhere important.

[ruby plinth]

I got a python scripting question but not sure which channel it'd fit into

[round radish]

#programmer-hangout

Maybe?

#editor-scripting possibly

[ruby plinth]

Ah thanks, I didnt have programming enabled

[void gust]

Didn't you know? 1+1 actually equals 5.

[void gust]

I cannot tell if you are trolling.

[oblique ice]

what is they even describing? 🤔

[void gust]

That's a good question.

[lucid dagger]

Lets go back to ontopic pls

[oblique ice]

okay, have no idea what is the discussion already

[lucid dagger]

Proudly

[low crystal]

Oh brother

[granite brook]

You aren't supposed to post job ads here. Read the #rules as well as the channel description. Please use the job board.

@bleak dagger @low crystal Please just redirect the user next time instead of discussing their job ad.

[low crystal]

I never posted a job so idk the exact way to do it but I’ll just tell them to read rules

[granite brook]

There is an #instructions channel for the job board which both the rules and this channel's description point to.

[low crystal]

Oh yeah I see

[split drum]

Hi everyone. I'm new here. Just wondering, other than games, what else are you guys using unreal to create? Any platforms or such?

[low crystal]

Videos, animations

[sharp flame]

Hey, my name is Eli, I’m in my 5th of 6 semesters in a Bachelor’s degree in Media and Marketing Management with a focus on film production and I’d love to start working in the games industry. I create real‑time cinematics in UE5, but I don’t know anyone working at a studio I have zero industry contacts.
My question is: how do you start and where would you start if you were in my position? I’d love to join a game studio as a junior and eventually do the kind of work you’re doing here. In Germany we have “Werkstudent” positions, which means I can work up to 20 hours a week while studying, and I’d really like to do that at a studio as soon as possible.
Any advice on first steps, places to look, or even mentorship would be greatly appreciated. I’m also happy to assist on small projects to learn and build experience :)

[oblique ice]

keep makiing stuff

[coarse ember]

What do you want to make or work on in games?

[sharp flame]

since my background is filmmaking and cinematography and photography I want to make cinematics and trailers. I've been building my levels on my own, making materials and Animations, retargeting, doing Mocap work, Animating Sequencer, lighting basically all aspects, colorgrading and editing as well. but yea i want to make Cinematics to bridge my love for film and videogames

[sharp flame]

thanks for the reply :)

[sharp flame]

i made like 5 Projects, some are better than others, but i posted them on my Artstation

[oblique ice]

okay keep make in game cinematic 👍

[sharp flame]

But how do I get from where I am right now with just creating for myself to creating for a studio, how did you for example start?

[coarse ember]

Sounds close to a technical artist or technical art

So it would be good for you to research that area and see if that resonates with you

[stoic bone]

Look into virtual production groups near where you are located. They often have open days, events, or even just want help sometimes. Get immersed with that and you’ll have a network of VP peers in no time

[coarse ember]

Another thing to do is to look at the games companies in Germany to see what technology they use, what roles they tend to have open or employ

[coarse ember]

The TLDR is to build a portfolio of work to get you employed or contracted by said studio

[candid spear]

https://forums.unrealengine.com/t/nasas-spice-toolkit-ue-blog-post-code/272630

scientific and research

[coarse ember]

This will involve building the portfolio itself and also some 'personal' marketing in terms of showcasing progress and WIP on LinkedIn, twitter etc

[sharp flame]

Alright sounds good, thank you so much for the input :)

[stoic bone]

Interesting! Are you the author?

[wispy snow]

I would also look at the marketing departments since they're often the ones making trailers. Publishers also often help out with trailers and the like so it's worth checking those out too.

[candid spear]

no , I just also interested it

[low crystal]

I also thought you were the author lol

[candid spear]

I'd love to port this spice library to mobile phone, but unfortunately still failed so far

[stoic bone]

Reason I asked was I just integrated the Spice C library in my plugin last week.

So seeing this I was like huh! A lot of parallels

[distant dagger]

Awesome!👍 by the way , does your plugin runs on iOS or Android?

[stoic bone]

Yes

[distant dagger]

awesome! there are more than 2000 c files in that library , did you review all of them one by one?

[stoic bone]

You have posted in over half the channels waving… let’s not do that

[bleak dagger]

Hmm the bot is back

[oblique ice]

Unfortunately, they will always have the bot

[trim lake]

Hey there, I'm an animation student who'd like to work in the gaming industry. Although my studies are connected to game artist positions, I'm thinking of also dipping my feet in the coding part of developement. Simply put, I want to be able to test my own assets without the need for a coder.

TL,DR: Beginner game artist also wants to be game dev. Any insight or recommendations where to start?

[hearty kettle]

Are you looking into coding with c++ or blueprints?

[trim lake]

Probably blueprints since they seem easier. I coded in C# in high school, but that's been a while. xD

[hearty kettle]

There are some good intros into blueprints on unreal website. Also on YouTube.

[trim lake]

Okay, thank you, will look into it.

[hearty kettle]

https://dev.epicgames.com/community/unreal-engine/learning

Start here

[trim lake]

Yeah, that will entertain me for a while, thank you, xD

[oblique ice]

wow C# from high schoo? no such thing at my time? i was just busy reading history, commerce, economics books

[strange plinth]

check also pinned messages in #ue5-general and #blueprint

also https://notes.hzfishy.fr/Unreal-Engine/Extra/Learn/Unreal-Engine-learning-speedrun

[trim lake]

Thank you so much, will take a look.

[smoky beacon]

"After Hogwarts Legacy’s success for Avalanche and Warner Bros. Games, a sequel was only a matter of time. The studio’s job openings also mention a new online multiplayer RPG, so if you want to help shape it, their current roles below might be worth a look."

Just saw this on X - thought you nerds should know.

[spice dagger]

@wet grove Please use the Job Board. Follow the #instructions channel.

[ivory echo]

And stop stealing burritos

[lucid dagger]

He can be a burrito who is a bandit

[oblique ice]

so it was burrito

[spice dagger]

@barren widget Use the Job Board for hiring. #instructions

[spice dagger]

@tight ridge Use #1054845120236757103 to showcase your projects.

[vocal adder]

im flexing on yall

[round radish]

That's the most useless thing I've ever seen.

But congrats!

[vocal adder]

hate us cuz they aint us (sarcastic)

[round radish]

😛

[void gust]

One of my roommates stole more then half of my taquitos, so you aren't wrong.

[chilly sundial]

That's unforgivable

[coarse ember]

#rev-share-jobs I assume this rev share?

[woeful iron]

read #instructions my guy

[craggy terrace]

Yes

[icy trench]

<@&213101288538374145> just wondering, is it allowed to bump a post / repost in hire-a-freelancer? if so, what are the rules about this? My personal schedule as not to spam is to post once every 2 weeks, with any updates reflected in my post. I have already posted once with the bot. Thank you!

[barren shadow]

There is no fixed period, but every 2 weeks is fine if its no longer visible, you can remove your old one, and replace with a new one.

[woeful iron]

I think you did something wrong

[wintry sigil]

Yes, thank for the help

[tropic harbor]

Oh

So most if not all of you have more experience than I do making games. If you have any sort of video list or just general advice on how to improve in planning or creation I’d love to hear it. I have one shipped title that needs alot of polishing. But I am not good yet at papermapping and level prototyping.

[coarse ember]

I've got quote a few resources here around that area https://stevenyau.co.uk/gamedev-megadoc/

Some callouts:

• https://book.leveldesignbook.com
• https://youtube.com/@stevelee_gamedev
• Game Design Resources by Alex/TychoBolt

[tropic harbor]

thanks man ill look into this

college can only go so far for experience

[granite brook]

@livid maple Please use our job board for this stuff via #instructions .

[spice dagger]

@wise sparrow Use the Job Board for hiring. Follow the #instructions channel.

[torpid tundra]

Is anyone here an Unreal Authorized Instructor?

[ivory geode]

is that even a thing lol?

[round radish]

It is.

[bleak dagger]

The ones with the most impressive neckbeard

[late dagger]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-gif-25117042

10 people. 10 people that replied to my post for a rev-share position. 10 people who failed to read and adhere to simple instructions. lol.

[round radish]

We had one guy who refused to use source control. Thought he was above it and everyone should just do it for him.

He did not last long.

[late dagger]

maybe 2 that had sense to submit portfolios that were actually semi decent, their schedules just didn't permit their work.

who the hell refuses to use SC lol.

[round radish]

He was an artist.

[late dagger]

that is part and parcel of any job with a complex project

[round radish]

That's what we told him. "You'll need it if you ever aim to get a job in the industry."

[late dagger]

exactly I know SVN, perforce, github etc

[round radish]

He didn't think it was necessary. I forget why. Probably because he's a twat.

[late dagger]

im not great at i t to do the fine tuned minuatue, but I know enough to be effective in uploading without stepping over other artists feet

[round radish]

And that's good enough!

[late dagger]

yeah i had one dude get really spicy with me lol, but had a googledrive portfolio lol

[round radish]

If shit goes wrong, talk to an adult. Aka your local devops guy.

[late dagger]

i hand the complex stuff to my programmer guy, made him admin to do that stuff

[round radish]

Everyone has blindspots somewhere and asking for help is not a bad thing!

[late dagger]

there is nothing wrong with being good in a few things and nothing else, thats called specializing

even as a generalist myself there are certain things i can't do very well. and I make it transparent in any project.

[round radish]

Probably a good idea. Programmers are generally more used to SC, I imagine. It's more "programmery".

[late dagger]

he's good at what he does. im lucky to have him

[round radish]

I'm sure there are things you do better as well.

[late dagger]

just wish i could get a dang artist to help me with the art asset slog lol

[round radish]

Haha. Yeah, man. That's our problem too.

[late dagger]

im good at creature design, and environment art, some animating (rigging I can do in my sleep lol at this point).

[round radish]

We've got a team of like 15 people. Not many artists with free time. Half the team is learning blender to try to get something done.

[late dagger]

nice.

true, hopes and dreams dont pay the bills as they say. I feel that. even as i do my own project I need to work and pay the bills too 😛

so i tend to say, do paid work first, if you have time and willingness come along. artists are a fiesty bunch compared to programmers lol

[round radish]

Yeah. For us it's kind of a passion project. Everyone has their own jobs.

[late dagger]

just noticed a lot of scammy behavior

[round radish]

That MrBeast casino thing is always getting spammed somewhere.

[late dagger]

more so since i am now leading a project with 5 people myself, im not bound to get wrapped up in that mess.

im pretty confident ill have my vertical slice demo done by end of march/early april.

[round radish]

Nice! What's it about?

[late dagger]

been doing a lot of research, on how to form pitch data presentation, traction data, etc.

FPS tower defense game

they say do what you love to play 🙂

[round radish]

Oh cool!

A bit like Orcs Must Die?

[late dagger]

i based a bit off that ironically enough 😛

[round radish]

Nice! My friend and I love playing those games together.

[late dagger]

yeah its a great fun game to play

nice stylized art style

goofy and whimsical

but the gameplay is pretty tight

and challenging but in a good way

[round radish]

Cool. Good luck, man!

[late dagger]

im doing a more dark realistic visual tone, with a facility you protect against the "Swarm"

thanks 🙂

[flat meteor]

Are browser games profitable these days ?

[coarse ember]

Depends on what you mean by profitable but generally, I've seen them to be decent enough for small teams/studios

There's also attempts in the space to further options available

eg more platforms/portals, monetisation options etc

[flat meteor]

I'm a solo dev and it's multiplayer but what i want really is just to have the game pay for itself i.e the server for example

[flat meteor]

Mine is a standalone

[coarse ember]

Yeah, generally that's possible assuming you can get the audience

[flat meteor]

Yeah I'm not a marketer I should probably start looking into that

[coarse ember]

There's been enough success stories on Poki and Crazy games alone that show this is possible

[flat meteor]

Another problem is I want it to be free to play

[coarse ember]

Ad driven or IAP?

[flat meteor]

I was thinking about maybe showing an ad on a death ? It's an mmorpg

It's not like you are dying constantly

[coarse ember]

If it's Ad driven and your game matches the audience on Poki, that's where I would go

[coarse ember]

If you want it to be profitable, you would have to push this more, especially for ads

[flat meteor]

Poki is a platform right ?

[coarse ember]

Yes

[flat meteor]

My concern is lag coming from poki

[coarse ember]

What lag?

The lag would be more based on your server location, not Poki

[flat meteor]

This game will be hosted on my own vps and site

[coarse ember]

That sounds like a problem on your side, not Poki

[flat meteor]

It's basically my own engine

[coarse ember]

Again, I don't see the issue where Poki would be the cause

[flat meteor]

I thought you had to upload the game to the platform ?

[coarse ember]

Even if you self hosted it all, a player would have latency if they were on the othersie of the world to your server location

[flat meteor]

Or something like that so I wouldn't have control of caching nor htacccess

[coarse ember]

Client yes, server backend is pretty much down to you IIRC

[flat meteor]

Or gzip for that matter

[coarse ember]

Poki would have the client side optimised for that type of thing

[flat meteor]

I'm also using socket io with node for the multiplayer

[coarse ember]

Realistically speaking, do you think your game fits a Poki audience?

One of the few web MMOs that I know has succeeded is https://hordes.io/

[flat meteor]

I don't really know

[coarse ember]

Rolling back a bit: Is it possible for a web game to be profitable to self sustain, yes

Given that you want to effectively self host it and it may not be suited for the typical portal audiences and it's a MMO, chances are pretty slim tbh

I would really think about if you have the audience available for the game you want to make rather than the other way around

[flat meteor]

I've already started making it

[coarse ember]

Who is the audience?

[flat meteor]

Mine would be similar to the link you provided but a little better in terms of graphics

[coarse ember]

But who is the audience? 😅

[flat meteor]

I suppose it's for any open world Rpg fan

[coarse ember]

Why would they play in the browser vs a Steam game or something else?

[flat meteor]

No downloads, free to play, type in the link and play

Runs on a low spec 3.6gb ram and a mid CPU

[coarse ember]

These are the questions to keep in mind and need to try and answer as soon as you can. ie can you find that audience that is an open world Rpg fan, willing to play in the browser and willing to watch ads enough times to help sustain your servers

What's the hook for them as well

The flipside of the question is where all the other browser based MMOs

[flat meteor]

It's basically taking terrority in a team v 2 other factions of players but with a "peace time" mode kinda of like a day and night cycle if you will where you can that work together taking down event bosses and doing dungeons for resource collecting and leveling

[flat meteor]

Yeah it's pretty niche I know of a few MMOs in the browser

The ones I know seem to have decent enough player bases but have full dev teams working on them

So probably have marketing departments

[coarse ember]

Hordes is mostly sole dev if that helps

[flat meteor]

I looked into Google ad sense apparently you need 50k views x 12(for a year) to gain $1000

Seems pretty low

[coarse ember]

Yep, that sound about right for non-rewarded ads

[flat meteor]

Considering the amount of views you need

[coarse ember]

This is why F2P games are so ad heavy. The eCPM is pretty low

[flat meteor]

It's over half a million views a year

Im not even sure if that is unique views either

[coarse ember]

Hence why rewarded ads are preferable

Higher (but still not great) eCPM

[flat meteor]

I may need to rethink the f2p with one or two items or something

[modest minnow]

Im curious and looking for composing opportunity for Steam-like games and mobile games. Is anyone working on something like that right now, if so you can send a DM and I can share my demo with you if you need a composer.

-A.music

[coarse ember]

See #hire-a-freelancer and #freelance-jobs

[modest minnow]

For some reason when I try to follow it, it is not loading the drop down

[coarse ember]

Are you admin to any Discord servers?

[modest minnow]

No

[coarse ember]

Follow is to repost posts in that channel to another Discord server you manage

[modest minnow]

Oh okay so ur saying to just look through the thread...got it

[coarse ember]

And to post yourself in #hire-a-freelancer

[flat meteor]

Maybe I could off a monthly plan or something where you get rewards but at a low price

Very low but still have the option to play for free 🤔

I could have features like personalised spells or something after all they are png driven GPU images

So like with the character spell have whatever image you want idk just trying to think of anything at this point 🤔

[coarse ember]

Oh wait, I've seen this before

You have a cracked screen IIRC

[flat meteor]

Yeah a real bad one

I use my TV now

[flat meteor]

I'm wondering which server 🤔 we don't have any mutual

[gaunt rampart]

/remove portfolio 1466396507635716317

[woeful iron]

no you

[lapis moon]

Any ideas how I can earn $100 for my steam fee? I'm trying to release a demo in the next couple days

[low crystal]

Commissions maybe or look at #freelance-jobs

[coarse ember]

Sell copies on Itch/Epic?

[lapis moon]

you can sell copies of a demo?

Gotta look into this

[coarse ember]

You can sell copies of whatever

Whether people buy it is another story

[lapis moon]

i guess with the understanding that you're kind of crowdfunding the project?

[coarse ember]

Sell pre-orders on itch. Eg buy the demo, get the steam key later? Early bird pricing etc

[coarse ember]

You can sell it as is

Or in whatever context you prefer

Realistically, it might be faster to get the $100 washing cars tbh

[lapis moon]

dude, thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I'm so lost when it comes to this kind of stuff

[lapis moon]

lol, if that's the case then maybe i should stop making games 😄

[coarse ember]

Or some other short term labour job

[lapis moon]

i guess if i'm doing it for the money I should stop

[coarse ember]

It's more of the urgency and sure factor

[lapis moon]

yeah, maybe my neighbors need something

[coarse ember]

It doesn't require upfront work or prep

[lapis moon]

yeah for sure

[coarse ember]

But game wise, you can sell a 'demo' / short game on itch and be upfront that it is a short game

And people still may want to buy it

You can also use that as validation if the game itself is attracting an audience/player base

[lapis moon]

yeah that's a great idea and it would prove i'm making something of value

right on

[coarse ember]

Still requires some marketing on your side to get the eyeballs on it

But it's basically a no cost way to dip into this

[lapis moon]

yeah, i'm sure it won't be easy but definitely the best path forward from where I'm sitting. thanks again for taking the time to help out a fellow traveler @coarse ember

[digital gate]

If I were looking to make my own games and sell them, I'd really want to have enough money set aside for 8 months, expecting to spend at least half that time figuring out what players hate/love, and hoping to be able to get something put together with enough appeal to justify spending a few thousand dollars on the parts of the game I'm not a pro at.

That's a gamble, too, the stars might not align

So I guess, yeah, if you're in this for the money and currently have none, you should probably do something about that first

[coarse ember]

For me, I would be churning out webgames on Poki/crazy games as fast as I can

[digital gate]

Rapid proto & validation is also what I had in mind

[coarse ember]

I was thinking 1-2 games per month

[digital gate]

essentially jamming until you find something folks like

[oblique ice]

Also call game jam, actually most games that later is sell is really started from there

[bleak dagger]

fiverr

[lapis moon]

any recommendatoins?

[lapis moon]

I've tried fiverr before but it's been years. Is it easier to get gigs as a newbie now?

I'm surprised Unity is on the list of poki recommended game engines but ue isnt

[digital gate]

what's your skill level?

[lapis moon]

I'm a sr. web dev and totally newb blueprints only UE dev

[digital gate]

I mean if it really comes down to it, I feel like you might even tutor someone @ web dev for the cash

[lapis moon]

oh i would love that. I've explored teaching through tutoring companies in the past. Thank you for the recommendation

[void gust]

Would probably be faster to just give Uber rides. 😆

But don't senior web devs already make decent money?

[coarse ember]

Lack of a decent UE web output tbh

UE can output to H5 but it given user devices and load times, UE is not viable

[bleak dagger]

Eh im not sure, took me a month for my first gigs but i dont know if thats normal

[coarse ember]

Post/Use #rev-share-jobs or #salary-jobs

[lapis moon]

no car 😄

[lapis moon]

I've been applying for jobs for 2 years now and haven't gotten a single response. I'm a sample size of 1 but that's my data and I'm stickin to it 😉

[lapis moon]

I def didn't wait that long so that explains it

[coarse coyote]

Hiii, I don't understand how to use Manny to search a job please, if someone can help me 😅
Thank you 🙏

[spice dagger]

Have a read over the #instructions channel. It explains how to use the Job Board.

You can otherwise browse existing listings in the channels in the Job Board category.

Such as #freelance-jobs

[coarse coyote]

Yeah I did take a look at it, but I think I'm just not used to it

It's apparently on discord, oh yeah maybe I don't have the proper tag, wait a sec 😅

[coarse ember]

I'm on a server with a few developers, they are making 5-10K per month

But it has taken time to get there

Poki has a game fit test where they soft launch your game to a subset of users

And I believe new games that pass are surfaced to players while metrics are monitored

But the game turnover time is much shorter compared to steam. IE the size and quality of game is lower than what is needed on steam

So rather than spending months or even years per steam game, you could be making a game per month for web portals

And you can get a better projection on possible revenue with longer tails in a much shorter amount of time compared to doing mobile or Steam

[bleak dagger]

5 - 10k?????

Just with minigames ?

Jeez ...... im working on the wrong games .....

[coarse ember]

I generally think game developers who are going solo/trying to do their own thing really overlook web games as a possible entry point

[bleak dagger]

Its not really a viable option when you work in Unreal engine

[coarse ember]

Switch engines

[bleak dagger]

But then i would have to learn c#

[coarse ember]

I've used 6 or 7 different engines by now

[bleak dagger]

guess way easier than cpp ...

[coarse ember]

A couple in house, renderware, flash, Defold, Phaser, PlayCanvas, Unity

Reddit gives payouts on games based on 'engagers' https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/27958169342996-Reddit-Developer-Funds-2026-Terms

[coarse ember]

You would be churning out prototypes, going through the game fit tests and see which one sticks. Once you have one that has decent metrics, that can be the focus for a extra development

You don't neccesary need one single hit game, having multiple average/above average games can give you enough users/ad views on aggreate

Tooling and fees, yes

I also think that in terms of standing out, you have a better chance on a portal like Poki vs Steam

There's also support from Poki/Crazy Games to help you succeed

[void gust]

Isn't "Taken time" true for anything in life??? I would be more wary of anything that would claim to make you rich quick with minimum effort. To me, that is a much bigger red flag (ie crypto scams). Patience goes a long way, my friend.

[subtle holly]

Okay, so I am almost positive this is the wrong chat for this question, so please feel free to correct me and ill move it to the right channel. (I'm sorry, I am very new here 😭 )

I wanted to ask, as someone with very minimal programming/scripting experience, what is the most comprehensive programming course (C++) I can take that will translate well into game development, but is not directly related to game development? (For context, looking to use this course as PD--professional development--so I can do it at work, so that's why it can't be directly related. I'd also love to move to programming full-time, so having it be generalized gives me more options)

Any suggestions? 😅 again, im so sorry for the dumb question

[coarse ember]

There's some pretty decent UE courses that may help bridge the gap. If purely C++ 🤔 , I can suggest books but courses not much come up to mind

Maybe get a few months of https://www.udemy.com/pricing/ approved and you can a full selection of courses?

[subtle holly]

The price isn't a huge deal, since I was originally going to go for boot.dev (until I went back and realized it looks like it's more PHP, Python, Java, than it is C++). Just wanted to find something fairly comprehensive with things that transfer over into the game dev space so that when I am done with the course, it's much easier to learn from unreal-specific courses 😅 Thank you, I appreciate the help! 😁

[chilly sundial]

Learncpp.com is a fairly comprehensive view of the language, with the bonus of being able to take it as far as you need

It's also free, though that doesn't seem to matter in your case

[round radish]

Learncpp.com hs nothing to do with unreal, but it will make learning unreal's libraries a cinch.

[strange plinth]

check pins in #cpp

[void gust]

Books are the way to go. I started with 2 books: C for Dummies, and C++ for Dummies. The authors explain every little detail in layman's terms and they don't assume that you already know what they're talking about. You'll learn not just the syntax but also data structures and how they work.

Edit: oh, and other very important things like pointers and memory management are taught in the books. Something that many people skip over.

I really wish there was a good Unreal book, though...

[worldly seal]

Hi guys im trying to post a freelance job and the Manny bot isn't working any help here?

[oblique ice]

i think so about the books also, i actually started learning 3d application from book, i didn't use videos

[worldly monolith]

Have you read the ones by Stephen Ulibarri?

[void gust]

I have a course on Udemy that's from him. Haven't started it yet.

[woeful iron]

uh oh, isnt' that the gamedev.tv guy

[rigid bluff]

no gamedev.tv is Ben Tristem

oh but I guess he has worked for gamedev.tv

I've gone through one of Stephen's courses though and it was great

[woeful iron]

yeah no idea, don't know anything about the guy, his name just rang a bell

[rigid bluff]

his advanced course are mostly C++

[oblique ice]

another person i seen the course before, tom looman, also have C++

[worldly monolith]

His is also good

[sharp condor]

I was thinking of trying to get into the industry as a programmer for hire since my current job just doesnt sit with me (security systems, alarms etc.).

The thing is, I don't really know how to effectively try and get in. I do use unreal for almost 5 years now but skill wise I would probably be 2 years, not to mention that I do mostly gameplay and light ui stuff 😅.

So my question is. If I wanted to start my career as a game programmer and expand my portfolio, where should I start?

[round radish]

Making games.

[coarse ember]

One possible way of doing this is to look at current job roles or job ads in the industry that you would like to do irregardless whether you are qualified or not.

Then you can work backwards in terms of what they're asking you for and what you need to show in your portfolio to show

[sharp condor]

So basically just aquiring the skill that position wants. So if it demands C++ skills I need to learn those

yea, that sounds good. Will do that, thanks!

[coarse ember]

Very generally yes

[oblique ice]

yes making games, prototype, geybox, GDD, choose templete, top down, immersive, third person, racer, puzzle, flying, side scroller, point and click, repeats

[lapis moon]

If I have a demo on itch.io that I want feedback on, what channel should i post it in?

[oblique ice]

yu can try post #1054845120236757103 or #released , hope that help

[lapis moon]

Thank you!

[round radish]

A "please" wouldn't hurt.

[bitter hull]

What would you like to do in games? I see that you already have exp in alarms and security systems so I'm guessing you do low level/embedded stuff in C? Or am I way off? You're more than welcome to DM me

For reference, I learned how to make a 2D tetris from an engine I made from scratch and then I started learning 3d graphics and just made a simple 3d demo and that got me an interview - but with hindsight / wisdom I could have made way smaller but useful libraries such as a file system, memory manager, or some kind of inter-object messaging system, learn about CPUs / GPUs and how to profile code you've written would show you're ready to start working

[sharp condor]

Gameplay programming is what i excel at from all of my skills. I like to make games in unreal (since i already use it for almost 5 years now)

[bitter hull]

cool! So I guess you have a good grasp on linear algebra like vectors, forces, would know why it's bad to use too many line traces etc, maybe you have some GAS exp and are comfortable with tags? Have you done any networked games and dealt with replication?
If you have good unreal insights exp profiling your games, then that's definitely a positive
Oh, and it's good to know the diff between hard and soft references, it can really affect productivity if a project takes 15 mins to load because the sheer amount of hard refs in BPs causes the game to load all assets on start up etc
Good luck!

[sharp condor]

I know about soft/hard refs. And as for the vectors and etc. I don't know them

[bleak dagger]

Its bad to use too many line traces ? o.O

[placid geyser]

Potentially, it can be better to use async line traces depending on how much other stuff is going on in a frame

[bleak dagger]

Ye.......

You can run a trace on tick and wont have problems with it

[placid geyser]

Vectors describe a distance between two points or just a direction. E.g you have the forward vector describing the direction your character is facing etc.

[placid geyser]

I’ve been chastised by physics programmers for using too many line traces 😢

[round radish]

But you can potentially do thousands of them without really hurting anything.

[round radish]

Maths is the basic starting block of programming, really. Even logic is a type of math. If you want to be any kind of game programmer, you'll need to know the basics of 3d (or even just 2d, if that's your thing) math, like vectors, trigonometry, etc.

[bleak dagger]

Its a myth that holds hardcore even in experienced devs

The linetrace is almost free, you can test it for your self, run the profiler and let a actor do 500 traces on tick

You wont even loose 1 frame

[round radish]

Of course it's good not to use them when you don't need to.

Don't use 50 traces every frame when 2 will do once a minute.

[placid geyser]

Keep in mind your mileage will vary depending on the complexity of the scene. If there isn’t a lot of stuff to do intersection tests against then of course the physics engine is going to hammer through a bazillion line traces no problem, but in our case the traces were what was showing up in the insights trace. we had weapons with a high rate of fire and multiplayer so we had to be kind to the server

But… anyway I don’t want to go too off topic for the career chat channel, but I hope someone found our convo interesting. Anyone is welcome to continue in DMs

[sharp condor]

I know what they are. Just not in depth

[sharp condor]

[void gust]

@granite creek I think you're looking for the introductions channel.

[junior spear]

Hey! I’m a sound designer moving deeper into Unreal workflows — curious how many of you actually use FMOD vs native UE audio for indie projects?

[wraith mortar]

Working with an audio engineer/designer seems to be the only reason to use fmod or wwise; familiarity. Metasounds works just fine otherwise

If you want to know which advantages each has that's a question for #audio

[rocky dune]

Question, as a solo game developer, how do I prove my skill level to potential employers? I have a wide range of skills, but I haven't released my game yet. It's going to be released soon but it needs money invested for the marketing. It's 99% done it just needs big investment into marketing I believe. I finally finished it almost but I wanna release it on official channels like steam because I don't want to upload it on other sub-par platforms with lesser reputation, as im afraid I could have it pirated, and lets say it get pirated, someone would then be able to upload it on steam to if they crack it. Right? Anyway, i've ran of money pretty much. Hard for me to find a job. But I wanna look for a game dev related job as I have pletty of skill in that regard. But my portfolio is almost empty besides that 1 huge project I've been working on daily for over a year now.
I've been scanning Linkedin looking for some interesting opportunities tho, for example I found one saying that they were looking for someone that can create Zack films style videos... They didn't mention salary. I never done anything like that. I would say cinematics is one of my weakness because it requires a lot of assets spending. And I was never heavy into assets, I usually resorted to creating my own stuff which took a substantial amount of time for each one...
And the other fear I had I don't wanna spend a week creating 3 of these videos that this guy wants to see of me, and then risk having that work being rejected anyways or that guy finding another person do the job and then I have 3 useless videos and a week of my life wasted

[coarse ember]

Can you post jobs examples here that you've found that are interesting to you/are roles that you want to do (IE a link to the job)

Also, which country are you in?

[rocky dune]

Greece

I wanna apply to as many jobs as possible optimally but I dont know how to optimize my portfolio, because I dont know how to display my skill level for them etc.

[coarse ember]

Ah, that can be tough given the lack of games industry presence there 🤔

[rocky dune]

Well im applying to international roles, and it doesn't matter because Im also willing to move around

[coarse ember]

Having example roles will help with advice as it's difficult to give concrete advice at the moment

[coarse ember]

They won't be willing to hire though

[rocky dune]

I have a passport, I can move around europe etc.

[coarse ember]

Doesn't matter, especially for juniors. It's super hard/impossible to get hired as a junior from abroad, even in EU

[rocky dune]

First of all... I think I need to be clear that im not solely looking for game dev roles, im looking for anything related to the technical tools i can use

so we might need to get this idea out of the window first, for example. A local manufacturing industry where i live interviewed me recently

[coarse ember]

Ok, so it comes back to giving examples links to jobs that you want to do

[rocky dune]

and they wanted to know if I can work for their real-estate projects, and their manufacturing production lines

yes, so this is one example

illustrator I guess?

[coarse ember]

Is there a link to the role?

[rocky dune]

No because it wasn't posted online, it was a private meeting

A family relative of mine communicated with them and because he was connected to them he refered me to them, so that job wasn't posted anywhere

and this is very typical for my area

many local companies hire people without really posting anything online, and this is why it's hard

[coarse ember]

The reason I'm asking for roles is because that gives a concrete objective to structure presentation of your work around

I don't really know what the skillset is you want to do/be known for

And posting a role is usually the quicker route to that 😄 as it also gives extra information on your motivation

I can give general advice, if you would like but it would be very general

[rocky dune]

sure

im willing to apply to anything, I dont really care, its only going to be for the short-term. Im currently also mass applying at the moment at anything that I see as im talking to you, sending resumes everywhere lol.

[coarse ember]

The problem is that the games industry as well as other industries generally wants specialists rather than generalists

So that means most people would have a portfolio specific work in a specialist domain like programming, technical art, or even animation?

I don't know what it's like in Greece whether they would want more people that are generalist or specialist and looking at previous messages you seem to be more of a generalist person

[rocky dune]

yes, as an indie game developer I had to become a generalist a little bit, but I will hopefully narrow down my scope once I find the first job.

Oh, btw this was the job I was talking about earlier

Not sure if a legit role or a scam or whatever.

[coarse ember]

So there's a few ways we can do this. Potentially one is have multiple portfolios each with its own specialist area that you want to show off, EG one for programming, one for art

[rocky dune]

Yes in greece I can say people want generalists

[coarse ember]

Or (and I generally recommend against this in the UK and the US.) You can have one portfolio that subdivides examples of work between the different domains that you want to be known for, so you may have a section for programming, a section for art and section for something else

[rocky dune]

I did 3 roles in the previous job I was doing.

[coarse ember]

So from what I can understand you have one mega project that you've been working on. So I would at least for now take that project. Think about what areas of that project you would want to showcase in your portfolio so you may have a program in the area for gameplay features that you've added and then you would want one for potential animation and your art

And you would want to break down each of those features and about how you've approached to make it and design it. Or in art. You want to take a showcase, the topology, the texture maps and the technical art. You would want to show the shader work and the work and the steps you took to build up the effect

[rocky dune]

Yes I thought of this as well, I would build a portfolio for each application. But that could take me almost about a week for each application.

[coarse ember]

Here's an example of the breakdown of a feature or project https://vacui.github.io/projects/tunnel.html

[rocky dune]

Its a tough market in Greece, that's for sure, no matter what field you try to get in. Haha

[coarse ember]

However, in your case you would want to separate the breakdowns based on the specialist area. So again one for programming, one for art, etc

[coarse ember]

I wouldn't make a portfolio for each application at the very worst. I would have multiple photos ready that you can send off if you need to give someone a specialist portfolio or generalist one

[coarse ember]

So for something like this I would either have a sub page on my portfolio for animation that I can send to them or have a separate portfolio focused on animation that would send to them

[rocky dune]

Oh, ty...And do you have a job right now? What job or how long have you had it?

Ok, so from the looks of it it seems that I just need to make some documentation of my project, game dev resume looks more like game documentation or something and less like a resume. Maybe even a steam page... Looks something close to a glass window for when you're going to a game's marketplace page

Im still waiting to finish some things to upload my mega-project however

For the moment I could make something similar to your website but only I could do something like a simple trailer or game play video... rather than have a link to a playable version

The playable version will be also ready though through steam, I dont wanna put my mega project on any other platform because im afraid of piracy even tho it can happen anywhere i feel more safe with steam

Oh I just now saw your Witches Library game which you also have blueprint screenshots

Wow, that is actually a very good portfolio

[coarse ember]

I've been working in/out of games for 18+ years now

Game dev resume should still look like a resume

That portfolio I posted isn't mine, just an example I like to use

Mine is https://stevenyau.co.uk/

[coarse ember]

Never expect people to play your game. Use GIFs and videos to show case work

[rocky dune]

oh wow, that is impressive

I recognize many of these

Harry Potter series, PS2 & Wii, then NFS, Sims, etc.

You even worked at Snap

Also King and EA !? Wow

Im currently applying to a local TV station

It's a major Greek TV channel, maybe the most popular channel in my country, called Star TV.

I think I'll try to make some short edits or 15 second videos because it looks like that's what they want. Looks like they're asking for skills in Adobe creative cloud software like after effects etc.

Also I would say my skills in UE could be a good complimentary factor in this application.

Who knows... But they specifically wrote in their job ad that any skill in 3D development could be appreciated in this role

This is where I shine, and I may even be slightly overqualified for this because video & graphics editting is a piece of cake for me.

I also have a code github page that I haven't really uploaded anything to for over 4-5 years maybe... But I used to do a lot more coding. Nowadays I mostly do everything in blueprint. Although I know companies now dont care as much about whether you can code but from what I've heard they care more about other things like if you're the right person for the job, exactly what you said, specificity, not sure about my local market tho, in the Greek market it could be still more about generalization, but the jobs here are pretty simple, I would say they might even be easier to break into

[coarse ember]

In my experience no one looks at GitHub project code to be honest

There's someone in the Game Industry Coffee Chat Discord server that works in the game industry in Greece so it may be worth joining that community there

[rocky dune]

I will check it out. In the meantime I think it would be really funny to work here... These local news tv channels have some pretty bad graphics for their 3D illustrations & demonstrations. They almost always go viral for their surreal quality. It's kind of a big popular meme that people laugh at. I think I could do a muuuuuuch better job than these.

I would love to do that. I dont know why these demos are so bad, lmao. I feel like I could actually excell here.

Also I think the competition in this small local market e.g. studios in Athens in a country of 10 million people would be a lot easier to stand out compared to if I were to apply internationally where I have to stand out against the rest of the world

[woeful iron]

yeah, people really overestimate the time investment when looking at candidates

[errant timber]

cause they probably give it the cheapest bidder

[rocky dune]

good point

[bleak dagger]

Does anyone know of some other place than fiverr and upwork for freelancing ?

[bleak dagger]

Really? Damn.... that would be the most important thing for me

If i had no idea of it i would let another dev check it

[coarse ember]

I think there's several factors here. The main one is time, to get a good sense of a decent size project is pretty time consuming and code alone doesn't really give people a sense on the person's approach to dealing with problems

[worldly monolith]

Havn't tried it but heard some use codementor

[spice dagger]

@mental thistle @bronze tusk This channel is not for soliciting help with developing your skills.

Please use the Job Board if you are looking to hire someone for that.

#instructions will walk you through the process.

[rain mango]

Nice portfolio

[coarse ember]

Thank you!

[deep forge]

Hi! I'm looking for someone to make a horror game using Story Framework, i have the base pitch idea but together we better so if someone wants to help in its free time, i'm open to revshare and i have paid already the steam publishing fees

[woeful iron]

read #instructions

[nimble mantle]

https://youtube.com/shorts/ibafOslTHP0?lc=Ugx6Dqehf5v31clXvbB4AaABAg.APRJDUm61U3AS7_ERb3B1G&si=Pk85gE1ZIWWrO5BU

[fallen garden]

Hi new here

[pure gyro]

What open source C++/TS project do you consider for showing off (e.g. experience to show to get a job soon) ?
What would you suggest me

[errant timber]

what job do you want ?

for gameplay programmer: make a game that is actually fun to play or has impressive mechanics . it even depends on the company that you are applying for and what you will be doing. if you can do something similar to what they are doing, especially if you do it better, then its an automatic interview

[pure gyro]

backend/network software developer

[errant timber]

for games or for corporate software?

[pure gyro]

corporate software

[errant timber]

it probably wont be c++

[pure gyro]

then maybe games too

[errant timber]

build a networked game engine from scratch

network physics like ragdolls, destructions or fancy things like liquids

[pure gyro]

I'm curious, what language would you suggest in this case?

[errant timber]

take a look at job listings in your area

if i was a junior c++ dev i might as well sweep the streets in this area

[neon narwhal]

hey all

[woeful iron]

cries in company employing 150 c++ backend developers

ngl, we are reschooling a lot of them to work with c# though 😄

[pure gyro]

May you help me into a good project that you think would be attractive?!

[woeful iron]

no, I've never been involved in hiring a c++ dev outside games myself

[pure gyro]

But you have experience in that field

[woeful iron]

I mean anything can work if it's decent and well presented

I only worked on games and got hired as c++ backend engineer

even though I literally been doing mostly c# since the first day I work here lol

[pure gyro]

What do you generally do in C++ backend? like low level server protocol / tools / fast dbs?

[woeful iron]

uhm, our case is quite specific

it's working on forecasting engines and mathematical solvers and such

the more generic things are working on data layer abstraction and things like that

anything that showcases knowledge can work though

if you can show you know about optimization, concurrency, memory managment and such things that's a good start

I think more important is to work on something you like working on and would like to talk about

most candidates are rejected before looking at any project

[pure gyro]

interesting, so like roblox backend?

[woeful iron]

what no

[pure gyro]

I honestly never heard of forecasting engines

[woeful iron]

it's a niche thing

it's supply chain planning stuff

but yeah most backend jobs won't be in c++

but there could be c++ components

for performance critical parts

I'd say think more in what kind of things you want to make instead of what position you want

and work from there

[pure gyro]

backend is usually like TS, Go, C#?

[woeful iron]

I'd say C#, Java, Node.js and maybe Python are most popular

Go is coming up, but still not widespread

it's also very region dependent tbh

[pure gyro]

Nice, I just need to know C# and Java and I will be the best backend dev

[woeful iron]

well it's a start

a language is but a tool

if you know the fundamentals of one well, it's often straigthforward to pick up another

especially if the one you know is c++ in my experience

[pure gyro]

💯

This should be the first language everyone learns

[woeful iron]

people that know c++ also like to overcomplicate things often when working in another language though, so gotto be careful still

[pure gyro]

Why do you think so?

[woeful iron]

experience

probably because c++ is very explicit and verbose

while other languages have some sugar or specific ways of doing things to make your life easier

[errant timber]

people that know c++ also like to overcomplicate things often when working in another language though, so gotto be careful still

[bleak dagger]

I feel like after c++ you can learn every other language with ease ...

[shadow scaffold]

👀

Hi guys

[primal rose]

can someone help me make a game

[pure gyro]

I can, how much can you afford?

[primal rose]

not a lot

[pure gyro]

5$/h ?

[primal rose]

prob

[sand island]

Sup

[inner mirage]

Can anyone tell me where I can search for unreal freelancing, part time jobs? Thank you

[dusty shoal]

#instructions

[inner mirage]

I am asking for third party sites. Not here

[bleak dagger]

Upwork and Fiverr ..... however it might be hard to get any gigs at the moment

[void gust]

Economy is experiencing stagflation right now. Might be hard finding people who want to pay for these services.

[untold charm]

hey y'all i'm working on my new business cards and i'm curious if anyone has any feedback

[waxen orchid]

it doesn't have the professional feel to it which a business cards should have

[worldly monolith]

#freelance-jobs

[errant timber]

hahaha i dont mean offense but this is close to graphic design is my passion made in paint vibes

[coarse ember]

Are contact details on the back?

[spice dagger]

@polar yarrow Use the Job Board for job listings please. Read the #instructions channel.

In the future if you dont know where to post something, just ask.

[polar yarrow]

Yeah I just found out about that sorry, thanks

[dense bramble]

What type of game

[bleak dagger]

also #instructions #rev-share-jobs

[old dawn]

Thank you for that I was wondering if this was the right channel to post this, but I didn’t see Revshare jobs

[ocean rose]

Hello amazing people, does anyone know if there’s any chance of intern openings for this summer at Epic Games (for programming)?
I know I’m insanely late, but I’ve been working my ass off to build a solid portfolio and some decent projects. I’m aware of the Early Careers page, but unfortunately that isn’t helpful right now.
Idk, maybe there are other ways to get in touch with the cool people at Epic for a chance to be considered.

[spice dagger]

@random quarry Please use the Job Board, #instructions can assist you. This channel is not for job listings/offerings.

[random quarry]

Acknowledged - sorry for the mistake

[upper sparrow]

A company I applied to for a job a few months ago just sent me a request to freelance. It's a reputable company, so I don't have to fear a scam, but I've only worked on long-term contracts before and have no experience freelancing. Is there anything I should be aware of here? Or can I just expect them to send a regular contract, dated for a certain time, and that's it?

[coarse ember]

Any agreement you have with them is only going to be as good as much as you're willing to enforce it. You would expect a contract that has a clear deliverable and a clear price, as well as stipulations on what happens if you're asked to do more work, like extending the time of the period, penalties for missing deadlines, what is acceptable in terms of more features etc.

It depends on what the freelance request is and local laws to your country

[upper sparrow]

Appreciate the input, will definitely double-check those details of the contract. It's Unreal car visualizations by the way, in Germany. It would be a gig of about 2-3 months.

[coarse ember]

It sounds like it's a fixed deliverable. In your case you want to nail down the exact requirements that they want for it so that there's no deliberation in the middle of it where they try to change the spec and it requires you to take on more work than you intended to for the price. Having that agreement up front allows you to point to the original spec agreement when they ask you for extra work that would require more time from you.

[upper sparrow]

Sounds reasonable. Thanks again 🙏

[coarse ember]

<@&213101288538374145>

Poor dude has been hacked

[tame stone]

with the increasing in use of AI becoming a gameplay programmer (unreal engine) worth it ?

[coarse ember]

Truthfully no one will really know. I've been talking in another server about this and we think that deep technical knowledge is going to be worthwhile along with human creativity and design

The grunt work of writing code is likely to be much cheaper, so you have to consider what other value you bring outside of raw coding ability. This could be a product or more business mindset so you can make stronger decisions that impact the company

[tame stone]

I am asking this because I am going to do a master's degree, so should I do a master's in game design or something related to gameplay programming?

[sacred flax]

AI has a loooong way to go before it can replace game programmers

[wispy snow]

If you want the safest bet in terms of getting a job: programming. There are at least 10 open programming roles for each design opening and junior design openings are almost non-existent.

That said, I'd recommend you to pursue whichever path you find the most interesting since you're going to need a healthy dose of passion and grit for both paths.

You can also always pivot later, once you're in the industry. I started as a gameplay programmer but transitioned to lead design over several years and projects.

[round radish]

Honestly, I think all game-related courses (if you want to be a programmer) are a bit useless. Why lock yourself into a very specific area when you could do a normal cs degree and have it be useful for game programming and everything else. (Note: I haven't done a game dev course.) Do you think somebody recruiting for a job outside of the game industry is going to care about your game design skills? Probably not. They'll take the guy with a broader and, probably, more useful degree. And anyone inside the game development industry probably won't care that you have a game design degree over a regular programming degree.

[lofty moat]

And small scale companies wont even care if u have a degree, portfolio is what matters to them

[woeful iron]

I did get a game development degree and ended up being a "normal" programmer, but I would not say that is the usual path to employment indeed

[earnest drift]

Hello all ,
not sure am asking in the right channel ,
Where is the best place to find modeler/texture artists ?

[spice dagger]

Use the Job Board

#instructions can help you understand how it works.

[earnest drift]

thankl you

[oblique ice]

i really not care about the qualification really, anyone do can the undergraduate or the postgraduate game developement if they have $$$$, i mostly interested the problem solving and respect part

[pure gyro]

When it's time to create a portfolio but you realize who you are competing against 💀 :
https://hasan-ashab.vercel.app/

[round radish]

They aren't applying for every job.

You'll find something for you.

[spark rock]

Projects aside and the eyeballing website, the portfolio itself isn't all that..
The 1 month internship part is over bloated since it's the only place with actual experience.
The fiverr part just describes the most basic things you learn in TS/JS regrading user authentication.
Desinged optimized MySQL/MariaDB, PostgreSQL, MongoDB schemas.
Implemented JWT/OAuth2 authentication for secure data handling.

[woeful iron]

but also does it matter at all

if you're not gonna apply for any jobs cause there's someone in the world better than you, you're never gonna get a job

[pure gyro]

the point is that when 2 people apply for a job, the better portfolio usually wins

[woeful iron]

well no shit

how do you know who else is applying to the same opening though

and if they've already applied and you still have to start making a portfolio you're not gonna be getting hired anyway

[pure gyro]

You don't know the people, but you have to except that people have visually appealing portfolio as the link above, I agree that it looks good but experience is meh

[finite knoll]

that link is a bit of smoke and mirrors anyway and the blogs look AI generated

[oblique ice]

i not sure why blog is needed

[woeful iron]

so you're saying there's not point in applying cause there will always be someone with a nice portfolio

[pure gyro]

No im saying I have to make a portfolio better than him to have a chance in the current market, which is quite hard

[round radish]

You also have to pass an interview.

If that guy has AI'd his entire portfolio, he isn't getting anywhere.

It's like when you ask a student to explain their answer on an assignment and they can't because they did it with AI.

[pure gyro]

Yea true

But portfolio is the first step before an interview

[paper torrent]

this is so true... Portfolio is the literal bane of my existence. I have been trying to get into game dev for literally 5 years now, and despite the state of the game dev job market, the main reason I barely made it into interview stages is because of my lacking portfolio... Which is so frustrating as most people don't even struggle with this ( 💀 ).
I essentially got stuck at step 0 for the past 5 years..

[coarse ember]

Are you actually looking for feedback or just posting your portfolio?

[finite knoll]

that isn't theirs, it's their perceived competition

[coarse ember]

Ooooh

[finite knoll]

the thing is completely vibed, so other than it looking nice, I wasn't sure what the big deal was

[pure gyro]

I'm in the process of making my portfolio..

[coarse ember]

The portfolio you linked before (i.e. your competitor) drives me nuts from my hiring manager's perspective because there's animation everywhere. It takes a while as I'm scrolling down for things to animate in so I can read it. It takes me until half the page to get to actual information about his experience and then even further to get to the projects and even the interesting stuff around their blogs, where they talk about shrinking Docker size and whatnot. That is like at the bottom so there's a lot of scrolling and a lot of waiting for me to actually read this portfolio. I borderline probably would have stopped halfway through and wouldn't bother trying to read any further.

Have the good information at the top above the fold so the first thing that people see is really important information about you and what impact you can give me if I hired you

This tells me little for example

[coarse ember]

<@&213101288538374145>

[bleak dagger]

Just make a short video of every system you create and maybe a few screenshots of the code.
That alone helped me a lot even tho its not even a real portfolio

[coarse ember]

You have 20-30 applications to go through. Any friction you face when going through these will increase the chances of being skipped over

And the animation is constant, so it's scroll wait. Scroll wait, scroll wait

Don't make it hard to get to the information

It's friction, it's stopping the user from consuming the information. It's what gets applications skipped over

It's not uncommon for a role to get 500+ applications

[coarse ember]

Do you really want to risk being skipped over for the sake of animations?

It's about not what you think but getting every small edge you can in the process

It drives me nuts because it's what users do when they read websites. These things make users bounce and increase churn rate as they try and go through onboarding flows, marketing pages, etc. so this stuff does matter

In that portfolio's case, none of that good information about them is at the top of the page either, so I'm literally having scroll all the way down to get to the good stuff about them

[bleak dagger]

@coarse ember Whats most important for you in a portfolio?

What 100% needs to be in there and whats less important

[coarse ember]

From a high-level perspective, the first thing I want to immediately see is the impact and relevance to the company or role that you're applying for. This usually means what impact you've driven so far or have done in the past, skill set and types of projects or work that you've done.

If that passes, then I want to know more about you in terms of how you approach work in your projects, your thinking process, and your problem-solving capabilities.

Using some actual portfolios for examples, there's one that I use as the benchmark to give to other people when they start making their portfolios. Another one is from someone that actually hired me while I was working at a big tech company.

https://vacui.github.io As soon as I open this portfolio, I can see his skill set on the very first page above the fold and also a snapshot of his current work experience

Scrolling down, it doesn't take me long to actually see his projects and get a good grasp of what he did.

And clicking into one of his projects, you can see he does a massive deep dive on how he approached it, with a summary at the top alongside what technologies or features he used in the engine. https://vacui.github.io/projects/tunnel.html

This one breaks the animation rule but saves it by having relevant information in the first scroll https://ninito.webflow.io and projects at a glance on the second scroll.

(His blog was working at the time I was looking at it years ago, that's annoying as the writing there is what made him stand out)

Basically, don't make the hiring manager or recruiter fight or work to find the information that makes you stand out. If you have good work that you want to show off, show off and don't hide it behind things that make people wait or have to search for, or have to really look at your page to find a link for.

Here's another example from a level design perspective: https://erinmcdermott0719.wixsite.com/emcdesign/wild-shape

Similar approach of breaking down how they approached making the level and the design considerations

Here is also a rare look on how a small studio hires https://www.ballardgames.com/tales/hiring-dev-2025/

"Our most valuable resource right now is time, and we have to be hyper-efficient.

For hiring, we usually sift through everyone twice. The first pass is just to get a feel for the field and remove any application that is not relevant for the role."

This is why it's important to not add friction or anything that slows down looking at your work

@simple adder I understand why you think is unreasonable for someone not to take the time to look at a portfolio properly and is along the same vein as recruiters or hiring managers taking 10 - 20 seconds to look at a CV or resume or not reading cover letters even though it takes the several hours to write and tailor

The unfortunate fact is that hiring managers and recruiters just don't have that time to spend going through applications. Any time spent doing this filtering Is time not spent doing work on the project

Time is incredibly expensive for a company

[oblique ice]

i actually don't care much for cool stuff, but if you want to show what you make can show it, as long as it's user friendly and the browser don have latency because sometimes it can cause latency, and yes straight to the point, people mostly interested in information and knowledge.

[coarse ember]

Yes because the information is hidden by said animation and therefore adding friction to me trying to quickly get an idea of experience

The reason why I keep coming back to this is because there's an assumption that companies won't act like when faced with applications and from my experience, they are few and far between

They just aren't saying the quiet part out loud

Hmm, I guess we are in disagreement quite heavily. Especially in an employer sided situation that we are in now

Yep

I generally don't associate the requirements/demands on what is needed to hire to be reflective on how the team/engineering works. Especially for large companies

Me personally, I wouldn't want to prematurely close off possibilities. Even in the worse case, having more offers means more leverage in negotiations

[pseudo plume]

Epic games has 119 job openings the same day they lay off 1000
... seems like a bad day to apply 👀

[round radish]

1. Companies list position to appear prosperous. 2) They might be let go from one area and recruited into another.

[pure gyro]

Do I stand a chance?

[coarse ember]

Layoffs are announced as last minute as possible so hiring managers/recruiters are unlikely to know until it actually happens

[pure gyro]

I see none on LinkedIn.. ?

[coarse ember]

https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/careers/jobs

[fervent arch]

couple days ago i met this indian who was making a horror game, and it was him, a guy from norway and a girl(forgot from where). I was like "what are their roles?" and the indian dude was like "oh the girl is an Ai specialist" (which is ask chatgpt for everything) 😂

I told him "Dude you will need a GDD and he said "can you make me one?" I said "oh no its too hard, but our ai specialist can handle this" 😂

[mild mist]

is it only for USA?

D:

[woeful iron]

why is your first question "what does the girl do" lol

[fervent arch]

oh no i summarized it, i was new and being introduced to the other people and their roles

[carmine siren]

@torn dawn Please see #instructions and don't advertise about jobs/looking for job in other channels

[torn dawn]

@carmine siren Thank you for letting me know

[carmine siren]

np, thank you

[snow kiln]

Hi, one question has been bugging me lately and thought I'd ask here, in the community.

How is Junior, Middle and Senior ranked in 3D? In Unreal Engine knowledge?
I've been using Unreal engine for more than 6 years and have been working with it for at least 5, sometimes on small projects sometimes on big projects, both solo and in teams.

Since most of my work was done with freelancing (emphasis on most), I'm having a hard time calling myself more than a middle.

How does one rank up to a Senior?

[digital gate]

artist? programmer? production?

I guess in general, you can think of it in terms of scope. At a junior level, you need very specific tasks - you're expected to be able to do what is needed this next sprint, with some supervision. Midlevel needs less supervision and can be expected to handle more workload, or deeper workload. Getting towards Senior involves more vision and you (can) own decisions/project that affect the junior/mids on your individual team, but also helps many more teams. There are likely parts of the role that aren't related to the "core" verbs that Juniors expect - like my role isn't entirely about writing code - and those are really important too

And it really depends on the company. If you only really work with a company of 5 then it doesn't matter how much you do there, larger companies arent likely to place you at Senior just due to the limited scope you've demonstrated.

Anything more than that and you're gonna need to specify discipline

Ah, mentorship is also usually important too!

[coarse ember]

Very generally, seniority is based on measurable impact on the project / company. That can mean different things for different companies

[oblique ice]

dun forget, that is only title, alot of time people thinking just because import someone who was have this title from that company they will do well, is never certain

[grizzled smelt]

Hello everyone, my name is Shivam. I’m from Agra, India, and I’m looking for some career advice.

https://www.artstation.com/shivam3d

I’ve been using Blender for about 2.5 years, mostly focusing on car modeling. During this time, I’ve learned several techniques and created a few projects. I’ve applied to some Indian studios but haven’t received any responses yet.

Lately, I’ve been feeling a bit demotivated and worried that I might not get a job. I’d really appreciate it if you could review my portfolio and share any feedback or guidance. It would mean a lot to me 🙏

[ashen lynx]

Currently, combination of artstation page and videos show that you have entry level hard surface modelling ability. Dedicated modellers are close to non-exitent these days, especially in game art. You need to expand the skillset to vehicle artist, that would fully cover at least material work to be more hireable. Videos reveal that you working slowly and inefficiently, not using blender tooling to speed up the process where applicable. Overall, That is not even remotely enough to land a decent job today.

[cyan pendant]

hi guys, I just make a new site for my portfolio. There are some empty pages that I'm filling, but most of them are here. May someone help me to review it? Thank you very much!
https://trungnguyen.super.site/

[woeful iron]

former what?

[cyan pendant]

GlassEgg is a 3D outsource studio from VN: https://www.glassegg.com/

[woeful iron]

ok, but when you put former, it's always "former something" no? Like former lead artist or whatever

you could say "formerly at" though if you don't mean to put another word there

[cyan pendant]

thank you, I didn't know that. I'm updating it now

[bleak dagger]

Im not sure if this belongs in here but maybe someone knows

Am i allowed as a freelancer to use bought assets packs for my clients ?

THey will get the project files so source files which is outruled in one part of the License but allowed in another

[woeful iron]

I think that depends on the license of the asset pack and the contracts with your clients

[idle maple]

Anyone has experience from transitioning from good ole 9-5 to consulting on your own?

Feels like I’d have to quit my current position, then look for gigs. Since most companies wants a consultant by yesterday and can’t wait for my notice period at my current job.

I do have tons of savings for a buffer that I can use while looking for gigs.

[bleak dagger]

The regular Marketplace license
Im working on fiverr so there is no private contract with the client

Im contracted by one person privately and as far as i know sharing assets in that setting is not a problem

But on sites like fiverr it gets blurry for me

[bleak dagger]

Good luck ...... for me its going really badly for the last 2 months

Seems like this year is cursed, the mass layoffs probably play into that .....

[idle maple]

Well I’ve had a lot of people contacting me for consulting, but they can’t wait for notice period.

Since I need to quit my current position

[bleak dagger]

Consulting hmm

What do you do exactly with your clients ?

[idle maple]

Systems programming, find and optimize performance problems, deep UE knowledge and best practices

[bleak dagger]

Are you networking over Linkedin or you have a own Website where you gain these clients ?

[idle maple]

They reach out to me on linkedin

[ashen lynx]

reality, external consulting and well paid contracts will come 90% from your previous job contacts. So quiting and looking for gigs is not a strategy.

[idle maple]

That’s what I have. The notice period is the issue, not the contacts

So mainly asked if someone has been in the same position

[bleak dagger]

Can cold messaging on Linkedin work?

[bleak dagger]

#instructions

[ancient lotus]

and cleared it out

apologies. wont post jobs in career chat

[ancient lotus]

oh yeah yeah 100%

[coarse ember]

Yes

[low cosmos]

Hey what’s up I’m new can we be friends

[late dagger]

there is something to be said about people who respond to posts of a "rev-share" post and refuse to read the post fully indicating that A) they can't follow simple instructions, or B) they have ill intentions. lol I am now what seems to be the 12th person who responded to my rev-share post for a programmer/artist (frankly I lost interest in getting an artist for this very reason and now do 100% of the art for my game beacuse, people are absolutely useless in following simple instructions hence my plight) and now programmers are the issue. Illustrating their lack of ability to follow instructions are simply attempting to swindle me for paid work. lol.

So damn close to being done, needing a replacement programmer due to losing one due to his electrtical grid being knocked out from the russians and being burnt out on other stuff....

I am absolutely over it lol.

[late dagger]

Now 13 people. Lol

[bleak dagger]

Well..... you are getting what youve paid for

I have never seen a single rev share work, ppl drop like flies left and right
The ones that dont drop at the first sign of work will take 6 weeks for something that you can do in 15 minutes

Never expect to produce a game that way, its only good for portfolio pieces

[late dagger]

what translates to is a bunch of flaky people I have to sift through to get the people who are worth a damn. I have worked on rev-share gigs before. it depends on if you get a person who has integrity and actually wants to learn or knows what they are doing and is interested in the project. there has been a number of projects back in the day that started off like this and took off to become real studios. it just depends on whom you take on and if they have integrity or not.

the problem more so is the scams for paying gigs.

[bleak dagger]

to me it feels like many ppl just want to larp as game dev or artist

[late dagger]

it depends, its not that black and white frankly. Some people clearly don't know what they are doing. That much is clear. I have worked on a few that were questionable. That much is true. But I have 15+ years experience and worked on COD MW3. the industry is in an uproar with layoffs etc, despite making record profits. I wanted to make a game that I love, and that is fun, and simple enough to create while still being unique. (but I am speaking from my experience). Some people want to do things on their own to avoid the pitfalls of layoffs that come along with this industry.

asset wise I am getting there because frankly I am doing 100% of the art (minus a few things my friend helped me on) but programmer wise its been a hassle I won't lie. But I get people want to get paid, I take no offense to that. it comes down to finding the right person, who likes the project and actually knows what they are doing. I work on the side myself while doing this project during my freetime. so I know how it is to need to get paid while doing a passion project that could eventually take off if done right.

I noticed a lot of people lack reading comprehension too. because I list on rev-share and they still come forward to help and realize i am rev share and are like nope, I need to get paid. wasting both their and my time. lol. 13 people so far lacking ability to read simple instructions or potentially just a scammer.

[bleak dagger]

Maybe they dont understand what rev share means ?

I had a few of these too

Or really just a lack of reading comprehension

[late dagger]

i dont know frankly. but it seems really strange.

[bleak dagger]

they are not scammers

[late dagger]

its right there for them to read lol.

[bleak dagger]

A rev share project is probably the worst target for a scammer

[late dagger]

well, yes in that frame of thinking correct. but they often will be so tunnel visioned on wanting to get paid, they just crap against the wall til it sticks.

randomly respoinding to people, then only realize oh , this person is a rev-share, no way to get "paid" with this one.

granted it could be a genuine person, who is to know.

kind of a toss up in that regard.

[late dagger]

to this and to a few who responded with emoji's. Rev-share is a common term in the industry, been so for the past10-20+ years. so unless they are absolutely green behind the ears so to speak in their introduction to the industry, they most likely know what "rev-share" implies, its just that they ignore it, or fail to read it, because of their tunnel vision. again, don't know what their frame of mind or intent is, but its often questionable given I have had 13+ people so far respoind to me, intersted in the project, only to drop out because of lack of payment upfront or during development.

again, this is my experience.

[bleak dagger]

Its a pleasure if you start onboarding them and after a few hours they ask for pay 😄

[late dagger]

yeah, that would get me miffed lol.

[bleak dagger]

I started directly with each new person with the line "this is a revshare project do you understand what that means?"

[late dagger]

i've gotten close to that even with signing an NDA lol

[bleak dagger]

Because i wasted so much time

[late dagger]

it happened once.

I will find someone, who knows what it entails, has their own job to pay bills, but is interested in the promise of the project. As I have done my research, have a crap ton of documentation for creating logic, AI systems, and how the game goes, along with over 100-150+ models fully textured including modeled, rigged and animated creatures. just need someone with integrity and knows what their doing.

i even got my own work i use to pay my own bills so I wouldn't expect them to do anything I wasn't willnig to do

but yes I have made sure to start off with it being a rev-share job.

[lucid flare]

Hey, just joined 👋

I’ve been thinking a lot about how game dev teams run, especially smaller ones. It seems like a lot of teams have really talented people but still get stuck or slow down because of how things are organized or led, not the actual dev skills.

I’m actually working on an idea around helping devs step into leadership roles and helping teams run smoother (better decisions, less confusion, less burnout, etc).

Right now I’m trying to see if this is something people would even want, so figured I’d ask here directly.

If you’ve worked in a team, what’s been the hardest part for you?
And do you think something like that would actually help, or is it not really needed?

Trying to get a real sense of it before I go deeper with it

[bleak dagger]

Eh

isnt that the reason you hire a proper project manager ?

[lucid flare]

@late dagger out of curiosity with the who rev-share concept, do you know what the main cause of flaking would be ?, like i've seem and done posts where the only promise was growth and a portfolio piece, as well as posts stating the game would be strictly rev share, yet the promise of growth and portfolio did way better then rev share, would you have any idea as to why rev share is less likely to succeed ?

[lucid flare]

sounds easy but really isnt, a majority of people who get into those positions are internal hires with no prior experience as a leader, they see that they are good at their job and excell at projects given, then a promotion is offered to lead a team, which if you think about it the whole motive of promotion is to pass on your knowledge to others, which some people struggle to do. ive been reading a bunch of articles and finding out that game delays are due to lack of efficent management

not to mention for indi companies do you really think they can afford an experienced operations manager with full time pay ?, would it not be more benefical and cheaper to hire a coach to train leaders for a month or two.

i base this whole thing off of the "give a man a fish they will eat for the night, teach a man how to fish and they will never starve again"

[bleak dagger]

Ye... i see a lot of these on linkedin tho
"Learn how to lead a team with my course" yada yada yada

[lucid flare]

it wouldnt be those boring courses, it would be an in person "or video call" sessions, ones where id sit in on their leading style, say nothing for a day or two, pickup on what they are lacking then coach them how to best improve, it wouldnt be a "one trick to solve all" kind of course

[unique osprey]

It's the framing.
If you go into indie development expecting to make money from a project without an established prescense, you generally won't. It's just the statistical average, and most established developers correctly identify it as a red-flag. So revenue share projects get held to a higher degree of scrutiny by default.

Going into a project with a "growth and portfolio" mindset means contributors are less likely to be pressured if things go south, and still allows for the opportunity of revenue share for contributors if the project turns successful. Think of that path as "development as a hobby".

[lucid flare]

So if you were to pre write up a plan of action in regards to GDD, and how the revenu would be distributed the chances of your rev share posts may increase ?

[unique osprey]

No. I and most other developers would treat a plan of action and GDD as a minimum requirement for a revenue share project's pitch.
Those items are light work and do nothing to contribute to project development.

In revenue share you're the one seeking talent with the promise of equity instead of direct compensation.

So if you don't have a plan, the promise of equity is worthless.

Similarly, ideas are very cheap nowadays. Someone could simply read your pitched GDD and do it on their own.
A designer's contribution to the project is their ability to make decisions in the development process as development hurdles are reached.

If you want to increase your portion of the revenue share in advance of finding a team, you'd have to put forth a plausible minimum viable product or a prototype.

[lucid flare]

so have a game/demo already created, offer a set percentage of the revenue it could make on your post ?, or do you think that rev share in general just isnt a viable option anymore ?

[late dagger]

I really couldn't tell you. I've joined Mods for the sake of portfolio, learning expereince (BF2 project reality) and a few others, and even FLIGHT SIM 2004 where I modeled a 747-400 SP variant. I think a lot of rev-share gigs fail due to lack of leadership, lack of focus and vision more than anything. I was part of one ( won't name them) but the models were absolutely crap, uneven topology armor ontop of overly complex body models which could have easily been reduced and still maintained the same "silhouette". I gave up frankly trying to fight with the leaders of the project trying to get them to either A) let me redo the models which i did, and improved it a ton, and rigged it fully along with facial rigging to for expression while fighting. but beyond that, I think it is a project is only good as the people involved who know what they are doing.

i got most of my demo done asset wise, just need to have logic put in for the rest, mainly bits and pieces due to the former programmer having personal issues (one of them being located in ukraine, so you can imagein the issue he had)

[lucid flare]

legit why i was asking about the possible market of leadership training in the game development world aha

[late dagger]

there are people that need others to take the reigns and make it move forward effeciently.

I have been in the industry over 15+ years, held a senior environment artist role with COD mw3, worked on a cyberpunk MMO back in 2010 as a art director.

that MMO failed due to shady investors sadly 🙁 still salty over it

the one kink is making sure to format documents for programmers to understand what they need to do 😛

most art related dev's have that issue lol but some learn quickly if they are dealing with a programmer that knows how to communicate what he/she needs

[unique osprey]

It's a viable option, but a sensitive one.
Prototype's are a feasible first step; storyboards, prototyped mechanics, blocked-out scenes, etc.
Anything to show thought and direction to build confidence that your project has merit in practice works.

But I would definitely say that any indie revenue share project needs to have an outlined plan of action for acquiring seed funding. Full development to shipping without pay is a no-go.

But again, that's revenue share where the payment is a promise of equity.

So you have to build trust in that promise.

[late dagger]

that is what i am doing, creating a demo first yes, but also building traction data, along with a steam page (but you need actual gameplay for trailers) etc to push toward a publisher for funding

my discord channel in the past 3 days grown to over 30 so far. which is nice.

[digital gate]

Something I would 100% need before entering a rev-share project with full commitment is a belief in the other participants in the project. It was an early lesson for me, to not tie my compensation to the output of amateurs.

[late dagger]

communicating with streamers, add a redit etc. all this for traction data for a pitch deck

im hoping to poush to a publisher I am in talks with who will then push me toward VC"s once they validate my work. e.g. demo, traction data, etc pitch deck etc

[digital gate]

you're doing some kind of tower defense yea? Are you working toward any particular deadline/runway?

[late dagger]

yeah I am. fps TD game with RTS lite Elements. to change up the formula.

[digital gate]

Ah.

[late dagger]

well given the lack of a programmer, I can't say anymore until I get a programmer. the goal was april, but given the former programmers life issues, had to adjust.

[digital gate]

If you want you can friend me and maybe talk a bit more

[late dagger]

other programmer is learning GAS, which is nice. but hes by no means fluent in C++. but i love that is taking initiative.

cant message you since i am not a friend, nor are you taking friend requests.

[digital gate]

whoopsie forgot my privacy settings haha

[late dagger]

lol i hear ya dude, im close to doing the same sometimes lol

but don't want to close myself to potential candidates either 😛

[lucid flare]

i appreciate the feedback 😄 for all of this btw. thank you everyone.

also @late dagger just out of curiosity what is your screening process ?

[late dagger]

portfolio, any github related projects I can look at, and refer to another programmer that validates it to cover my butt 😛 since he understand that facet of it more than I

also, where you live and ability to communicate effectively is important so we can schedule meetings effectively

but location i am kind of loosey goosey overall

[lucid flare]

do you ask about other commitments, times they can give to you, any form of consistency that can back up their contributions to you ?

[late dagger]

communication is more important. if i can't understand you we won't get stuff done 🙂

yes. I do, I understand if they have a full job, that is fine, 10-15 hours a week ideally, which is the same with all of us. I do side work on 3d printing, and graphic design.

paid job comes first, then mine. 🙂 i also don't expect anyone to do anything I am noty willing to do.

[lucid flare]

oh nice, glad to hear ahah, i just know some people tend to be really lose with time frames and deadlines and that tends to break their group. but i can tell your years of experience has doen yourself justive lol

[lucid flare]

i just wanted to jump back to what you were saying before aswell where reve-share failes due to lack of leadership, not sure if you had seen my post before about training leaders in game development for this exact reason, do you think it is something that could be needed ?

[late dagger]

potentially

for those who want to learn and take initiative and run their own outfit.

aka their idea, thus their "studio" but if taking on a program that helps them reduce to effective learning curve, there is potentially a niche for th at

[lucid flare]

much appreciated 😄

[late dagger]

i'd say go for it, depends on your presentation 🙂

[grave cove]

Personally I think it's a mistake (at least in games) to treat the project manager as the leader of the team. Game team leadership should be coming from the discipline leads primarily.
PMs are should be there to help coordinate and organize. That's not the same thing as leadership.

[late dagger]

PM is there to delegate and coordinate to make sure tasks are completed on time.

reported.

[grave cove]

Except for bugs with known owners, a PM should not be in charge of delegating work.
They should only be coordinating that the necessary tasks will be assigned. Not any direct assignment.
but even so neither of those things are necessarily leadership.

[late dagger]

Fair.

I would imagine an effective pm knows what needs to get done first.

[grave cove]

I doubt it. Discipline leads and senior staff know it first. A PM might manage a backlog, but they're not the one primarily populating it with tasks.
(and I don't count it as the PM doing it if they're just doing the secretarial work of making the task because someone asked them too)

[lucid flare]

But there is usually a request done from one kind of higher up that lacks understanding of either how to lead or the game dev world, this could cause issues with time request, delegation and or discipline. What I'm trying to figure out is if teaching lead Devs how to lead would boost the efficiency and if not would teaching leaders how to game Dev be a better game ?

[late dagger]

Gotcha

I know enough of my project I should be fine lol minus some input from my programmer on how to define stuff lol

[coarse ember]

Usual issue is that people who don't want to be managers end up do so because it's the only progression path.

These days, larger studios will have a fork to allow ICs stay as ICs as a valid promotion path

Lack of leadership training is rarely the issue because the training already exists

[lucid flare]

What form of training though if you don't mind me asking

[coarse ember]

Emotional Intelligence
All the forms of project management training (Prince 2, Agile, story mapping, estimation etc)
How to mentor, how to lead, how to provide feedback, how to communicate (textual, in person, etc), how to manage up, how to listen

Then you have all the business training on top of that if you are dealing with budgeting and forecasting

[lucid flare]

But would a manager get time to be given this training if they already have a team to look after ?

How*

[coarse ember]

Yes if the company has schemes/budget/tracks for this

Company sends them off for days/weeks

I did Agile training for a week at a previous company

[lucid flare]

Most companies never do that's the downside, the companies I have worked for start up training for it, but never sticks because it takes managers away from their teams, and their budgeting for another permanent person to train these managers

[coarse ember]

Then nothing you offer can help

If a company wont send people away from the team to get training done then they are already in trouble

A team won't fall overnight

If a team can't do without a team member for a week then they either have a bus or trust problem

[lucid flare]

A manger being taken away for a week is very impactful, my courses wouldn't be a full week, they would be sit ins and 1 hour coaching sessions here and their, my approach isn't forcing them away to the point they lack a manager, it's coaching them in small but heavy increments

What's the point on hiring a manager only to take them away from their team for weeks on end

[coarse ember]

If they can afford to do the above, they can already afford sending the manager away for a day

[lucid flare]

Not to mention these courses you speak of are "universal" and never a one on one approach with teaching techniques that don't work on others

[coarse ember]

So that they can manage the team for the rest of the year

[lucid flare]

I never said a day 🙂 It would be an hour

[coarse ember]

If they can manage an hour, they can manage a day

[lucid flare]

Exactly my point

Instead of taking the manager away for a week, I would break it down so they are away from their team less, I wouldn't be a full time employee so they wouldn't worry about a salary but. A small upfront fee "if it works out of course I'd be trying free sessions at the start"

Giving personal coaching sessions for skills the manager lacks

[coarse ember]

I think you are over indexing on how much impact being away for days or a week has on a team

It's like the manager can never have a holiday

I get what you are offering (which does exist elsewhere)

[lucid flare]

I'm simply saying they don't need to be away from their team for anymore then an hour. As someone who has been on both sides as a team member and a manager leaving your team in general will have impacts regardless 🙂

[coarse ember]

But I don't think you are offering anything new to the table

[lucid flare]

Doesn't have to be new, just had to work

And if it exists elsewhere then it would be something to persue, I just have to find a unique way of going about it to stand out more. Appreciate the feedback thank you 😁

[coarse ember]

What I would much prefer is to have someone external to join and observe the whole team for let's say a week, and take the whole team through an improvement plan

[lucid flare]

That's legit what I'm offering 👀

Sorry if I worded it wrong ahaha

[coarse ember]

What it sounds like you've been pitching is 1-1 coaching for managers/leadership. Not whole team coaching?

This is what scrum masters/agile coaches used to do for agile

[lucid flare]

It would be coaching the manager after shadowing how they run their team, pinpoint what can be improved and what lacks foundation to then tech the manager who can pass on those skills and improvements to the team, a leader is supposed to help their team members, hiring me to improve a team would be slightly obsolete, doing it for their managers would be more impactful due to their position.

The one on one would be myself and the leader, after watching them lead with their team for a set time

Scrum masters ?

[coarse ember]

I don't like that approach myself, mostly because the project is a team effort and also requires people in the team to also be part of the process for improving how the team works

They need to be involved in feedback where it's comfortable and safe for them to feedback directly to the manager/leadership otherwise it continues to be a top down flow/directive

[lucid flare]

That's what I would be training, if I coached a whole team they would lose trust in their manager and would only work for those members, if I trained the manager they can pass their teachings on to their current and new members, even if or when they get promoted to a higher position. If I was hired to improve a team I would just of been a temp manager aha

I do get where your coming from tho, I'm thinking of long term as well

[coarse ember]

The manager is part of the team so the training would be for everyone. The also is with the manager training the team is that they are usually in a position of power making disagreement hard to surface

[lucid flare]

Oooh I like that, I'm picking up what you're putting down

[coarse ember]

Going back to your original question, this can be a big part on why teams/orgs fail, there is a power dynamic that is rarely talked about when it comes to management

Because usually the manager is the person that decides promotions, pay review packets, bonuses, layoffs

And tbh, I've yet to find a way around this both as a manager or as the person being managed

(outside of sticking to facts and removing emotion)

[lucid flare]

If it's a common issue I could look into it so if I can find a solution for it

[bleak dagger]

How would you handle a programmer that works a lot?
Lets say hes unemployed and puts 60h / week into the project
Would he recieve the same amount of revenue for his work than anyone else `?

[late dagger]

I've had a full time job and did it no issue back in the day. Lol

Well revenue wise is similar to those who help based on their role and level of experience

If he's doing it full-time yes he'd get a higher percentage

And if and when funding comes into play a larger boost to his salary

It would be written into the contract to define the terms

[bleak dagger]

What if hes doing one month fulltime then 1 month just 10 hours / week ?

Its hard to keep it fair for everyone

I created a point system
For each milestone someone completes he gets x amount of points
Plan was to add all these points together at the end and calculate their revenue based on that

Probably the only thing that worked halfway alright in my project 😂

[late dagger]

Nice. Milestones are good

Idea

[bleak dagger]

<@&213101288538374145>

[weary oyster]

Hi brothers, I'm an OB-GYN doctor who just quit the hospital, and I want to switch careers to the gaming industry. I've participated in some online training before and have a foundation in C++ and graphics that I accumulated during university. I'm 25 now, and I feel anxious—will it be too late for all this?

[round radish]

No.

[wraith mortar]

The age doesn't matter. Lack of experience especially with state of the industry means zero chance of getting a job in the near future. Otherwise go for it

[lucid dagger]

I changed career when I was 37

[late dagger]

you get out what you put in. if you put in the work to become a OB, you can put in work for game dev

25 tho? an a full blown OB? did you even finish? or quit during your residency?

[weary oyster]

Things might be different in my country. Here, it is 5 years of undergrad plus at least a 2-year professional Master's (including residency and licensing). I stayed at the hospital last year and have been a formal resident for less than six months. I am really fed up with certain things at the hospital, so I plan to change careers early, but my family and friends are strongly opposed to it.

[weary oyster]

This is exactly what I’m worried about. The career gap is too wide, and I have to start everything from scratch. Although I am learning skills for the game industry, I lack experience in teamwork and industry workflows. People my age in this field likely already have 2 to 3 years of experience. I’ll have to start with small studios, which may not be as formal.

[wraith mortar]

The industry is dead. Nobody wants juniors either. If you don't have savings to carry you through for the next few years it's going to be a really bad time for you

Hopefully if you spend a few years learning to make games it'll start to recover by then, but no one knows what it'll look like once it does, or when that'll happen

[weary oyster]

I’ve observed that in my current environment, many studios are transitioning to Unreal Engine. This transition is a great opportunity, and some small studios don't have very high hiring requirements. I’ve been interested in Unreal since the UE3 era, so I’m willing to give it my all. The main issue is that my family doesn’t understand; they think having a stable job is already hard enough. However, I still want to do something I am more interested in.

[coarse ember]

You are also in a very high competitive environment that gets an increasingly easier to learn so the entry bar gets higher

Here's an example https://www.ballardgames.com/tales/hiring-dev-2025/

2 days with 159 applicants for a small indie studio that hasn't released their first game yet

Your family is right that at this time, getting a job is already hard enough looking at layoffs in tech/games for the last 6 months

This is not to say it's impossible but I think you are under estimating the difficulty here

If you can do this learning alongside an existing job, that's great

[weary oyster]

Seeing that a bunch of industry veterans are saying the same thing, I definitely need to think twice before going all-in. For now, I can only try to crank out a demo in a short time and test the waters. Thanks, everyone.

[wraith mortar]

#instructions

[wraith mortar]

What country are you in

[coarse ember]

Which country are you in as well? That has a huge bearing on starting too

[weary oyster]

China.

[wraith mortar]

Oh that changes everything. I'm unfamiliar with industry in China

[weary oyster]

Technical resources are basically monopolized by giant studios, so I feel like smaller indie studios here might actually stand a chance. MoveIt! is still popular in some projects.

[wraith mortar]

Generally US, UK, NZ, AU are similarly affected. EU too but to varying extents. So for most of the world it's incredibly bad. But countries like China and Japan exist in their own bubbles

[coarse ember]

Yeah, I don't have enough info about China to stand by my previous statement

[wraith mortar]

I haven't heard from anyone using MoveIt in a long time but I guess it does still get used

[wraith mortar]

Yeah for that info probably need a Chinese based community to ask

[coarse ember]

I remember from a report that the growth in China for games revenue outpaced the western average

So there may be more demand for talent there generally

[wraith mortar]

I have seen adverts for jobs but I don't want to move to China lol, as an English speaker it's one of the hardest languages to learn (along with Hebrew). Probably not too bad since I know a fair bit of Japanese but it's the kanji that made it hard lol

I think Riot is an option in Singapore as well

[coarse ember]

That also explains the parents stance/opinion being from an Asian family regarding jobs

[wraith mortar]

Well in the current economy I think having a recent qualification that lets you be a doctor... Any family anywhere in the world would question your choice leaving that behind especially before you've utilised it to make real money

[weary oyster]

China, game revenue is heavily dominated by Tencent and NetEase—either through their own studios or those they back. For now, it's pretty much impossible for me to break into them. Honestly, what everyone is saying perfectly matches the reality here: the competition is brutal, it’s just that indie teams or solo devs here are on a totally different scale in terms of growth and community size compared to the West.

[wraith mortar]

Idk what kind of hours and mental energy your job demands but you could stick to an after work project or something for a few years

Having a stable job is worth too much right now

It sucks because all these young people have no real opportunities

[weary oyster]

Thanks for the advice! Discord is actually blocked in here, so I need to use a VPN just to hop on here, lol.

[oblique ice]

that interesting, but yes tencent is one of the game developer there

[coarse ember]

More I was thinking that traditional careers are favoured more by Asian parents IME. Especially if there's some aspect of prestige. Convincing my parents on letting me study for games was challenging

But yes, I also agree with the cost and time in switching from a qualified medical to something else

[late dagger]

Hell, I even worked on call of duty mw3 as a senior artist, worked with Disney, Nickelodeon, ibm, Mopar sports, zero latency media on their VR zombie shooter and even I have a hard time getting a job so decided to make my own game collaborating with a few others to help program while I do the art side then get funding. Not guaranteed but better shot than say constantly applying to jobs that reject me. Agreed with others it's brutal now.

Despite these hardships? I love my work. I love this industry. I can't imagine doing anything else.

[coarse ember]

#volunteer-projects please

[bleak dagger]

<@&213101288538374145>

[bleak dagger]

Once ive seen a documentary on how Asian Parents make their Kids train to become E-Sport pro gamers
To me it seemed like when they are doing something they do it efficient ^^

[frank tusk]

Man, as a game programmer this is legitimately depressing to read. Not that I was surprised/unaware though. Still..

game programmer student*

[wraith mortar]

Yeah I have a few personal projects going on. I suspect at some point it'll be the only way to survive in games

[wraith mortar]

The industry has a large gap where juniors never got their start and that gap is showing no signs of closing. It's going to be bad all around in the next couple decades when the talent isn't there anymore

[oblique ice]

same as me, i have personal game i even making myself
yes i read post by juniors that never get their first role and they actually working in different industry, i don't fault them, they need to make $$$

[ivory geode]

The big company strat seems to be having few seniors run as many agentic ais as they can

[wraith mortar]

Don't think so? Where is this happening?

[ivory geode]

There are companies that do that

this is a thing since 2025 where models released that could actually do something useful without being babysitted all the time

[dusky pivot]

Hey