manga-theories

[lyric dust]

living creatures with a shadow injected inside them would also evaporate, right?

[wild veldt]

No, the shadow will leave

[lyric dust]

[wild veldt]

Luffy could only stay in nightmare mode before his body rejected the shadows

[lyric dust]

ah, okay

been awhile since I watched/read thriller bark so i dont remember things like that

[worthy hedge]

ohhh that is right

!rank

[pure raven]

yeah it is but, do you really think thats it for her?

[lyric dust]

shes also just a child

[urban marsh]

After wano:

Shanks vs blackbeard -> winner blackbeard -> luffy loses it -> luffy vs blackbeard -> blackbeard luffy's first kill

[obsidian phoenix]

please dont have luffy kill anyone thatd be bad character writing

hed be compromising principles hes developed over a thousand chapters and thats just not in his character

[errant oxide]

I’d say if that DOES happen, he could become incredibly enraged and develop some sort of ability to put his body to the limits, possibly shortening his life span or endangering his life (Oda likes to do that) and completely beats the sh*t out of Blackbeard, nearly killing him but the rest of the crew does their best to calm him down.

[scarlet arrow]

i like that idea about shortening his life span
kinda reminds me of HunterXHunter

[errant oxide]

Yeah definitely

[gloomy latch]

Thriller Bark is the same kind of ship that Iceburg wanted to make Water 7 into right?

What if actually no scrap that theory I was gonna make lol

[zinc iris]

I think in that case Luffy would lose
it's pretty consistent in One Piece that when the motive is revenge the fight ends up in a loss, with the character winning only when their motive is no longer revenge but protecting others instead

[errant oxide]

Luffy loses, Akainu comes to kill Sabo, and we get another time skip

(Pls don’t do this Oda)

[urban marsh]

This time luffy with big ass muscles etc

and kinda this form

[queen arrow]

that looks dumb

[urban marsh]

hell nawh

your pf is

[lost isle]

yeah thats not like luffy

[queen arrow]

Luffy doesn't use a sword, and it looks way too edgy

[kind gate]

This is trash

[urban marsh]

oh its you again floride, don't forget to brush your teeth today aight?

[weary cliff]

If you told me this was someone trying a dbz/g4 crossover, I'd nod along and say it was neat. Niidai kitetsu aside. But if you tell me this is honest speculation for a new form, i cgotta say this aint it

[pure raven]

[junior cape]

If this fight truly is where Oda unveils Luffy's next big powerup, gear 5, then it has to be something wild. Following the thought process from his other forms, Luffy's next gear will have to do with some aspect of his body that he will modify to become more powerful, just like previous ones did (G2 = blood causing increased speed/power, G3 = bones resulting in massive strength, G4 = muscles resulting in flight and overall toughness). We know it won't just be a mix of two gears, as when he tried that against Moria he nearly fucking died. However, there aren't many human systems you can quickly and directly change from the outside, with skeletal, cardiovascular, and muscular being basically the only ones you can. Therefore, I believe he will instead unlock a power of the gum-gum fruit to increase his strength.

[sacred hawk]

I don't think it's really a theme. I don't remember characters ever specifically being portrayed as wrong for wanting to settle grudges.

Like, there's Kyros vs. Diamante, or Sulong Inu and Neko vs Jack

[dusky acorn]

Bound Man and Tank Man are already both great options if Luffy wants to end the Kaido fight whilst being portrayed as resembling that guardian figure Hyogoro talked about. I wouldn't want a Gear 5 or new form in general to be used unless they can keep following that bulky looking trend

Also means things like Snake Man, and the speculated Tiger/Dragon mans probably wouldn't work, btw.

[kind gate]

Wdym by what hyogoro talked about

[dusky acorn]

The scene in chapter 990. It's clearly being set up for once the battle reaches the capital, the general public of citizens will easily recognise Luffy's shape in his G4 form as a harbinger of protection for their country. Oh one more thing, Oda jokingly talking about G5 is still the main thing that deters it from happening now. HIGHLY doubt it would be spoiled/shrugged off with a gag like that.

[kind gate]

Hmmm I see

[pure raven]

^

[zinc iris]

they're not wrong but the skewed priorities makes them lose until they get it right
and this is not to say they don't resolve those grudges, but that if this is the main motive then it doesn't work

kyros fought diamante also to protect his daughter from him in a way that she would not shed blood

also inu and neko are fighting mainly to liberate wano, with Inu explicitly affirming that stopping jack is a necessity that goes bejond revenge

meanwhile law lost to doflamingo because all he wanted was to destroy him for killing corazon (that is not going to come back)

[sacred hawk]

The Scabbards were also fighting Kaido to protect Wano as well. Just because avenging Oden is part of their reasons doesn't mean they have skewed priorities.

[zinc iris]

and more recently, we have carrot and wanda theoretically being able to beat perospero as sulong, but being screwed by fate as their motive has been "he's the guy that killed pedro"

[sacred hawk]

Also, Inu and Neko seemed pretty vengeance-motivated when they fought Jack

[waxen light]

What would Tankman even look like without the bloat from the crackers?

[junior cape]

Probably a fatter luffy, focused around his abs and chest.

[dark palm]

yeah we'd just get the stomach

[acoustic helm]

Survival of yonko supporting luffy is not good.
Whitebeard dead
Shanks might die to BB according to some.

[dapper mica]

Usopp was the first crew member not from the monster trio (or monster quartet now Jimbe has joined) to get haki, who do you think will be next? I’m thinking probably chopper as his fighting style is mainly melee based so CoA would be very useful to him.

[dark palm]

chopper getting haki in this fight would be cool

could see robin getting observation

would fit her whole spy thingy she's got going on

outside of that though... I don't think anyone else will

wouldn't really benefit nami outside of the observation utility, Franky just having really tough stuff is cooler than him using haki, Brook seems to use souls anyways, but i could see him getting haki I suppose

[dapper mica]

Nami can’t exactly use imbuement on lightning

[dark palm]

Yeah, she'd just kinda have it

[dapper mica]

Well I guess Franky could imbue his weapons with CoA to make them more effective

[pastel summit]

don't think any of them will get it. I think armament requires more discipline than observation. we've seen countless people be born with observation, or be able to randomly unlock it, but never with armament. People only seem to have it after training, or people who have already trained.

there's never been a random unlock of armament. so I doubt anyone is "unlocking" armament.

[dapper mica]

Well I can see chopper training in CoA but none of the others

[pastel summit]

not in the same way usopp unlocked observation

yeah but when is he training for it? who trained him? how long is it taking? don't think it's something you can pick up in a couple weeks or something. idk.

[dapper mica]

Yh probably after wano, or trains with Luffy between wano and next arc

[brazen lantern]

For the first time as a manga reader someone just spoiled a future chapter to me 😂😅

[dapper mica]

How? 1009 spoilers?

[junior cape]

Haki isn't something you necessarily HAVE to train for. Most CoC users seem to get it from trauma or random awakening, and people can straight up ve born with Haki access.

Therefore, more of the strawhats unlocking haki to complement their fighting style wouldn't be impossible

[grizzled fog]

CoA would be cool for chopper if he still had arm point

But it wouldn’t be the same if it’s not on a cloven hoof attack

[junior cape]

I could absolutely believe Nami already uses CoA unconsciously, as she can clearly harm luffy with punches and blows, even if only for comedic effect.

[dapper mica]

Kung-fu point is a fusion of arm point and jump point

[grizzled fog]

I know it is

[junior cape]

As for chopper, I can see him getting both of the main forms

[grizzled fog]

It just looks like shit, and it doesn’t have the same attacks

[dapper mica]

Monster point + CoA

[worthy hedge]

hey do you think that luffy is going to meet up with shanks ??

[worldly anvil]

yea prob around BB

[ionic peak]

who is this guy eh ?

[brazen lantern]

Dm if you would u really like to know, won't recommend it though 😂

[pure raven]

Probably a celestial ig

[night jewel]

looks like the baller hat guy from cp0

[worldly lance]

my theory is that the ''no break next week'' is actually a lie

[abstract pond]

I would like Brook to get haki too. To continue his badass progression

[worthy hedge]

if a straw hat has to die who do you think is going down except luffy

[abstract pond]

You mean in this arc?

[worthy hedge]

probably at the last arc

[abstract pond]

If I had to say one. I would say Franky or Jimbei

[worthy hedge]

yo i want brook to die

i cant handle if oen piece ends with brook on the grave of all the straw hats and says thank you for leting me say the story one last time

i am going to be crying all day

[weary cliff]

This series could not go on without Franky. He's so integral

[abstract pond]

Did you ask just to say you WANT Brook to die?xd

[worthy hedge]

yeah

[abstract pond]

Now speaking of theories. Outside of the main questions.
What do you guys think about the big egg in Roger's ship and the Tequila Wolf bridge?
Could the bridge be an attempt of the World Government to reach Laugh Tale?

[autumn zinc]

why would a bridge help ?

some characters can make their ship fly

[abstract pond]

I don't know man. But they have been building it for 700 years so it must be something big and important.

[autumn zinc]

yeh, must be.
Its one of my favorite mysteries

[dapper mica]

I’ve already seen the 1009 spoilers

[silent sage]

Before the void century, all the races, the giants, skypians, dwarves, etc were forced to come to the earth. On the earth, the ancient kingdom kept growing. The leader of this kingdom was Joy Boy. Joy Boys goal was to unite all the races and bring the world into 'one piece'. Kings of 20 other kingdoms came together to fight the ancient kingdom but they were too weak. The leader of the Demon clan, Imu, gave them the power of devil fruits in exchange that they would let Imu rule the earth and be the supreme power. However, the king of alabasta rejected this and warned Joy Boy. The kozuki clan from the ancient kingdom made the poneglyphs and hid them. They also made the 3 ancient weapons. Finally, Joy Boy hid the one piece at laugh tale, where noone from the kingdoms could reach. The 19 kingdoms used the devil fruits power and changed the geography of the world to make laugh tale almost completely inaccessible. Joy Boy passed down his dream and the D. Were created- the ones who dream of freedom. Joy Boy made the Noah for the purpose of carrying Poseidon to laugh tale when the time comes. Many years later, Roger finally reached the island. However, upon seeing the one piece he was devastated. The one piece was way bigger than he thought and he didn't have the power to put it to its true use. The people in the D. Family always hide their sadness by laughter. So roger laughed and named the island- Laugh Tale. Roger then surrendered himself and sent the whole world out to sea in hope that someone will one day find the one piece and use it to fulfill joy boys dream.

[worthy hedge]

i mean i like it but i am not so cool with the whole demon clan

[autumn zinc]

roger wasn't the only one who laughed , his whole crew laughed . So its not just a D trying to hide his sadness by laughter
I think he just laughed because he was too early , all these decades of trying to find the true answer , getting more desperate after getting his sickness , only to find out that he wasn't the chosen one , somebody would be born in the future who will surpass him and do what he couldn't do. Poseiden being born 10 years late probably a big reason for that

[worthy hedge]

also devil fruits could be from the ancient kingdom

[autumn zinc]

The kozuki clan from the ancient kingdom made the poneglyphs and hid them. They also made the 3 ancient weapons.
didn't the people of water 7 make Pluton ?

[abstract pond]

I don't buy this theory. Who forced the races to earth? The ancient kingdom? World government are the good guys for fighting the ancient kingdom?

[pastel summit]

presumably same thing that we learn in Enel's cover story. lack of resources.

[tiny forum]

I am not agree with this

The reason for Roger laugh imo https://twitter.com/Puru_Go/status/1211145349873557505?s=19

Ether (@Puru_Go)

Roger laughed because he knows that this is not his time. Whole thing is messed up. So what we can do?? Just laugh guys! As matter of fact he planned his execution and let all pirates to search for his treasure! So someone will eventually ends up finding one piece #OnePiece967

Twitter · Dec 29, 2019, 4:42 AM

[flint gorge]

One piece is eiichiro oda’s Spoiler for two piece

[sturdy hawk]

I agree with this. Roger laughed because according to the prophecy he went to the island too early due to luffy being the one, but also too late as to not meet Joy boy

[amber oar]

Roger's words afterwards imply otherwise. He laughs because it's a fun story, "a tale full of laughs" so the laugh is definitely about the content and not his particular context

I think it's just Joyboy's journey - and like any adventurer's journey, it has lots of funny moments. Just like Luffy's, Oden's, Roger's, etc. The story likely gives context of the world as it used to be, which leads to Roger's words "I wish I had lived in your time".

[tiny forum]

Luffy is joyboy

[ancient vault]

Im betting you everything I got this is supposed to "parallel" us, the readers, whenever we read One Piece and Luffy does some stupid shit again

[surreal heath]

the person that would be the coolest with buso is brook

[late night]

How did kaido make onigashima fly???

[queen arrow]

!flydo

[lone hedge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/164971940648321024/781836869461344256/unknown.png?width=352&height=99

[queen arrow]

i mean you just have to literally read the chapter where it happens, because it's explained there too

[velvet edge]

Yea its explained right in the next fire. He uses his fire clouds to make onigashima fly

[dapper mica]

Nah I think the ancient kinddom was on laugh tale and that’s why the true history and the the one piece is there because that’s the site of the fallen kingdom. Also the WG tried to wipe out all trace of the fallen kingdom but couldn’t get to laugh tale so the actual kingdom remains untouched for centuries aside from Roger

[zinc iris]

well roger already knew the important stuff was going to happen 25 years later, but he was on a tight schedule with his mortal illness and accepted that
and anyway what he wanted was having an adventure

[autumn zinc]

yeh , but my point is that roger only found out at laugh tale that he couldn't do anything with whatever he found there
maybe posieden was important for that.
roger loved adventure , but he was equally as invested in the mystery of the last island
i think his laugh is something related to that , and not ' he laughed to hide his sorrow because he is a D "

[cedar sinew]

idk about the ancient kingdom being untouched but the ruins could definitely be there

[zinc iris]

how could the wg forces destroy the ancient kingdom without knowing how to reach the capital?

[solemn thunder]

Who would you consider stronger? Kaido or Big mom? (as individuals who would win in a 1v1)

[formal marsh]

Kaido

[solemn thunder]

Yep. Personally I think Kaido as well

[formal marsh]

Wasn't that quite established ? also , big mom herself described him as a monster

[solemn thunder]

Hmm...

But would big mom really just say she's weaker than Kaido? As a yonko herself she'd have more pride I'm guessing

[formal marsh]

I mean, she never says that she is any weaker than him. But at the same time for her describe him as a monster when she is what she is, must mean something... imo

But their fight would likely to end up in a draw though

[worthy hedge]

kaido i mean he is now the strongest man in the world

the WG sed it

[solemn thunder]

for now yea

[worthy hedge]

also Prometheus i dont think he is effective on kaido

[solemn thunder]

why is that?

[worthy hedge]

by the time kaido is a flaming breathing dragon who can raise a whole islande from the ground with fire

[solemn thunder]

Ohhh makes sense

[worthy hedge]

a litle flame thrower from prometheus i dont think it is going to be efective on a dragon

[solemn thunder]

Big Mom's devil fruit has lot's of potential

[worthy hedge]

yeah but not on kaido

in order for her to kill you you have to be afraid of her

[solemn thunder]

Kaido is not afraid of big mom

Could Tama possibly tame kaido?

The whole wano arc would be over faster if she could lmao

[worthy hedge]

i rly dont know

[solemn thunder]

i want tama's devil fruit its frikin cool

[worthy hedge]

dont think so and if you remember jimbey didnt die because he wasnt afraid of her

[worthy hedge]

agreeee

[clever pebble]

i want logia

having powerful logia is instantly having a rear-admiral level potential

[quiet oyster]

Do you guys think the Mink are the result of experimentation on humans while creating the zoan devil fruits? (If they happen to be something created scientifically)

[dusky acorn]

Well besides Vegapunk, there presumably hasn't been much scientific leaps present in regards to trying to make artificial devil fruits. Minks are a naturally existing race, which have long since been on Zou even before Vegapunk's time

Like even Vegapunk's method to put fruits in artificial objects was made only one year prior to the present story

[pastel sinew]

You know man, I keep thinking how Sus Robin is at times

[dusky acorn]

I'd say if minks were artificial, then they wouldn't be able to have such natural offsprings as they do now

[pastel sinew]

I feel like she definitely can

[dusky acorn]

How is Robin acting suspicious though? We know her whole story, and that ever since Enies Lobby she's completely loyal to the Straw Hats

[pastel sinew]

Can’t wait till we discover the origins of their ties with the Kozuki clan

[quiet oyster]

Hmm, while i agree on this to a degree i can’t accept it entirely since we don’t have much details about it

[pastel sinew]

I’m like 80% kidding, but it was always strange to me how she knew certain things but for some reason didn’t want to tell the crew. For example, she knew Sabo was alive and well, but decided not to Tell Luffy? Why? I guess it’s just better story writing the way luffy found out of course,
I’m also super curious to see what she did for two years with the revolutionary army. She’s the only crew member that we have no clue what happened during the time skip. But yet again, Oda is definitely waiting to reveal all of that whenever Dragon really enters the fold

[quiet oyster]

It’s similar to rayleigh knowing about Oden at Sabaody

[dusky acorn]

I can't deny, it's strange how Robin is the only Straw Hat where we didn't see a single panel of her in the main place she stayed at over the two years, which was Baltigo. This may as well be for the reason you said, as Oda wanting things to be more fluidly revealed in story when their right time comes instead of Robin spoiling things, so to speak.

She's always been one to keep things to herself, so it's no big character inconsistency at least

[dense wing]

The reason for Robin’s time skip being obscure is more likely because Oda doesn’t want to delve into Revos yet and reveal secrets, as opposed to Robin being suspicious

[quiet oyster]

You can even say that maybe Sabo wanted to tell him himself and give him a surprise

[dusky acorn]

Yeah it's def more of a general revolutionary army thing he's keeping the lid on moreso than Robin herself

[pastel sinew]

And also, she knows Luffy is all about the journey. She wouldn’t want to reveal anything to her Captain that may make it “boring” per se, because he’d expect some things

[pastel sinew]

That’s very true

[dense wing]

Makes you wonder when the Revos will get focused on, especially with Baltigo being destroyed and them located back in Okama Kingdom

It would be interesting if we never see them until final war

[pastel sinew]

I also can’t wait for Shanks to enter the manga once again, since we know he will sometime in 2021

[dusky acorn]

I hadn't thought about this much, but I suppose Blackbeard took Baltigo as another one of his own territories presumably

[dense wing]

Depends on if Wano has an Act break, or Wano ends before 2021 ends

[pastel sinew]

I really wonder wtf happened to Sabo at reverie.
Oda doesn’t really REPEAT plot points, but i wouldn’t be opposed to Luffy wanting to save Sabo and actually succeeding in saving a brother. But at the same time, don’t see Oda doing that

[quiet oyster]

I guess that will happen after Wano? My guess is that Sabo will get executed in the same way as Ace

[dense wing]

Did Blackbeard take Baltigo due to just potential opportunity? Or did he have something he specifically wanted

He was shooed off by CP0

I doubt Sabo is getting executed, I’d say he’s on the run right now, potentially with Vivi

WG frames Sabo as the killer of Cobra, and the hostage taker of Vivi

[pastel sinew]

I love the theory behind Big News Morgan. Since we know that the bird he looks like, is his devil fruits name. So perhaps he’s always in Hybrid form. Who knows who he really really is

[dense wing]

Who do people think he is

[quiet oyster]

I mean, right after they showed the news about him they show Doflamingo at Impel down laughing, i don’t think that’s just a random thing, i believe Sabo is there in Impel down

[pastel sinew]

I’ve heard one theory that he’s a former member of the Roger Pirates, who is dictating the news to “guide” the generation. But who knows really

[dense wing]

Doflamingo was laughing because the news is showing him exactly what he predicted, the systems are starting to crumble

Doubt he’s laughing for specifically Sabo

[pastel sinew]

Since his crew would know about the will of D being passed on

[dense wing]

Doubt Morgans is a former Roger pirate

He could be significant though

[quiet oyster]

Hmmm

[pastel sinew]

Also, can’t wait for Momo’s dragon power to really Awaken sometime soon. Remember how he and luffy got out of the jam in Punk Hazard? He has yet to do that again

[dusky acorn]

Morgans being a former pirate of a past generation seems like a cool idea though

Fits with his interest of the Worst Generation particularly, and just pirates in general. Also he's pretty strong for just a news journalist lol

[dense wing]

I can see that

[pastel sinew]

Right?

[quiet oyster]

I don’t think so either, so far his personality tells us that if he knew something so big as what happened at the void century he would’ve published it right away

[pastel sinew]

As soon as anyone in the know saw that Strawhat, they just knew this generation will be the one

[dense wing]

Morgans is in the camp that one of the Worst Generation is becoming Pirate King

[pastel sinew]

Well that would make him lose face so fast with the WG, and his news syndicate would be crushed.

[quiet oyster]

Morgans is like a gossip bird tho xD

[dense wing]

At this point, he’ll probably start focusing on Blackbeard and Luffy as head runners

[pastel sinew]

Bird is the Word

[dense wing]

Luffy is going to get some serious attention from the WG after Wano

[pastel sinew]

Luffy’s DF awakening would be the perfect counter to Blackbeard’s earthquakes too

[dense wing]

Considering Im’s concern and him defeating Kaido

[dusky acorn]

I guess whatever Blackbeard's next moves are, Morgans will be there to extrapolate it. Big bounty increase incoming

[pastel sinew]

Have y’all seen the teaser trailer to the new OP movie????

[dense wing]

BB is probably going to get a bounty increase from whatever he’s up to

Didn’t he tell his crew to move out to somewhere?

[quiet oyster]

There is a new movie? Holy shit

[dusky acorn]

Yeah his entire crew is heading out I think, which is interesting

[pastel sinew]

I think it may be an April fools joke now that I think about it.. it was trending high on the OP Reddit page.

[dusky acorn]

They're planning on fighting someone huge anyways

[dense wing]

I wonder how likely a WCI raid is

Considering they have a glyph and DF users

[pastel sinew]

Katakuri is stopping whoever comes by.

[quiet oyster]

I think what he meant is getting the Ancestral weapon at Arabasta tho :P

[dusky acorn]

Katakuri and everyone who is left would be able to stop them if only like, half of the BB pirates went

[dense wing]

Alabasta is really getting a lot of focus,

If it wasn’t so far away I’d say he’d head there too

[dusky acorn]

But I don't think they'd stand a chance if Bb himself is there

[pastel sinew]

and he’s after something... he said he’s just gonna go after what he wants by force. Whos DF can that be

[dense wing]

Depends on BB’s current goal

Progress to the One Piece, or boosting his general power with DFs or finding info on Ancient weapons

[quiet oyster]

But as far as i remember there is a way to “repeat” the road without going backwards, i might be wrong tho

[dusky acorn]

Because at the end of the day, it's meant to be a surprise attack, wherever Bb is going as well

It's not like BMP would be able to round up all their allied crews to defend from the attack, which should be something Bb would have the luxury of doing

[pastel sinew]

What if BB is going after Shanks

[dense wing]

I’m not sure he has a reason to

[quiet oyster]

What he said made me think of an object or a territory tbh

[dense wing]

I actually also doubt he’s going for the Ancient Weapons, because that seems to be something more likely to be used by the WG in final war

Or by us to destroy Red Line

[dusky acorn]

I feel like Uranus is on a sky island somewhere, like contrasting how Neptune was deep in the sea

[quiet oyster]

Im with this one, still we lack on a lot of info.

[dense wing]

Pluton buried, Neptune deep sea, Uranus sky?

I dig that idea

[quiet oyster]

That would make sense, one on the ground, the other one in the sea and one on the sky i guess

Lmao

[dense wing]

Uranus is probably both a way to make Pluton fly and an actual weapon of some sort

Maybe a cannon or shock wave idk

Flying death ship pulled by Seakings

[dusky acorn]

That's an interesting take, I'd always took the ancient weapons as their own things entirely. Still think it'd be cool if they can interact with each other and make the other weapons reach their full potential like that

[dense wing]

I think Neptune was insinuated to pull Pluton with Sea Kings, similar to Noah

Yeah they could act on their own too

[quiet oyster]

If we follow the “destroying the red line” theory i think uranus is a “weapon” to control the weather after it goes wild cuz of destroying the red line, Pluton might be a weapon that creates land to put it at the center of the giant whirlpool maybe?

[dense wing]

Actually what would be cool would be for the Ancient Weapons to be in the hands of different parties, and part of Final War is gathering them. Idk

Crocodile is still going for Pluton right?

[quiet oyster]

I can’t tell tbh, might be a possibility

[west saffron]

I just saw SERIOUS THEORIES only and was like OOOP

delete that reaaal quick

Yea, reading up, maybe crocoboy is a much bigger deal than anybody else thinks to the end of one piece

Crocodile gaining pluton and being the big bad that we have to face again in face of raftel would be kinda sick

[dusky acorn]

@west saffron Careful, that wasn't actually Oda himself who said what you just stated, it was his editor, meaning you can only discuss it in #spoilers, where it's pinned!

But yeah I agree, Crocodile is seeming pretty relevant to the endgame, especially with his secret and whatnot

[west saffron]

oh im so sorry I didnt know that

I Imagine at one point or another luffy and the revolutionary army are going to meet up, and if crocodile is a player, im assuming his secret will come to light.

maybe its bigger that we think, and croco will go after the revolutionary army to keep it quiet. Or it could just be that he used to be a woman lmao

[azure trout]

Fax

Maybe in skypiea

[dusky acorn]

The only thing that puts me off of the idea though is it feels like we should have learned some better clues about Uranus during the Skypeia arc, if it really lies somewhere in those parts

It's even stranger that the poneglyph up there talked about Neptune out of all 3. Granted, it's not like the SHs explored every stretch Skypeia had to offer so maybe there were just clues we didn't quite discover, who knows.

[quiet oyster]

Remember the poneglygh was originally on the ground tho

[dusky acorn]

But even then, wouldn't it be more practical for the glyphs geographical location to be more related to the actual whereabouts of the ancient weapons themselves? So for Neptune's case, all poneglyphs related to it being under the seafloor somewhere.

But well, with the sheer amount of time passage since the glyphs conception, we can't exactly expect the location of each poneglyph to be so neat. Oden's flashback showed how they're constantly moving around, and it only took a 25-ish year gap for the red glyph down there to completely disappear.

[quiet oyster]

I thought about this as well.

The only logical reason i could think of is that they wanted to hide the info as much as they could, thus why the whole thing makes sense once you go through the rio poneglygh... that or they change places or get lost by chance as you stated. Also the poneglygh on Skypiea is a good example of this xD

[tired moss]

I dont remember roger being part of the navy

Who is this admiral ryokugyu

Could he be a relative of Roger? Brother or something?

[grizzled fog]

He doesn’t even look like roger

[tired moss]

Very similar laugh tbf

Have we seen him since he talked with fuji?

[queen arrow]

how is the laugh similar exactly?

and why does it matter considering we have a lot of people who laugh exactly like Roger

oh Ryokugyu's laugh is Rahahaha

which is nothing like Roger's laugh besides it being a laugh with "ha" on it

[pastel prairie]

If Ryokugyu was related to Roger, absolute Justice would possibly have gotten him.

The only example we have of this situation is Garp

What if we have never seen Kanjuro?

We may have never seen his original body

[zinc iris]

Doubt it, after Marineford Crocodile decided to become an adventurer again instead of finding an "easy" way to take over the world

[pastel prairie]

Mr. 1 is still with Crocodile as well

[stoic seal]

still holding out for Uranus to be in SPACE; maybe it's a weapon that drops down meteors like a big azz magnet

[tiny forum]

!act3

[lone hedge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/164971940648321024/812008302815739914/Untitled-12.png

[snow herald]

Poseidon is a living weapon, pluton is a ship/machine. So Uranus could be an actual weapon or tool/df or something

[pastel slate]

Where's the link?

[dark palm]

in #announcements @pastel slate

[cedar sinew]

ship is basically a weapon. Some people theorize that Uranus is knowledge or a concept

[chilly helm]

So uhh am I the only one concerned about the fate of Zoro, it did not look like he is okay after that attack. Especially with that cough.

[cedar sinew]

Zoro has insane durability he'll be okay

[junior cape]

Yeah Zoro might have to drop out for a while, he took a dual-sovereignty attack head on. I doubt hell die, but he's definitely not doing great rn

[dark palm]

yeah coughed blood at the end merely from moving around

he's gonna be out of commission for a bit

as will luffy presumably

[chilly helm]

I'm just trying to predict the tragedy for the end of this act

[junior cape]

Luffy on the other hand just pissed off Kaido by calling him a coward

[chilly helm]

Though I doubt it

[dark palm]

don't assume stuff like that, the act count is anywhere from 3-5

and the "tragedy" is not inherent throughout kabuki plays

[junior cape]

But holy shit they chopped off ALL of Orochi's heads

[dark palm]

wikipedia spread this poison throughout the english community

[chilly helm]

I bet he

[dark palm]

orochi has one left

[fast pine]

Oh he will be back

[chilly helm]

will survive

[dark palm]

that's 6

[junior cape]

Maybe, but he's died a lot today, and he will be out of commission if nothing else

[chilly helm]

I think Orochi has nine heads?

[fast pine]

Oh you are right, even though another head could just be off camera

[junior cape]

I dont think he's dumb enough to challenge onigashima with only 1 life

He brought out his heads like he was tough stuff and got turned into sushi

He will run for his life if he's still alive

[dark palm]

the yamata no orochi has eight heads

[chilly helm]

Ah

Any ideas on the Raizo fight? I wonder if the aid has a fruit that works well against Raizo's somehow

[upbeat zealot]

BM meet her crew and sail to elbaf

[wooden topaz]

do you all think BM will fall down to ocean that easy ? or perospero help her ?

[chilly helm]

Maybe Kaido will save her

[dark palm]

her crew could be tailing onigashima

daifuku would be the one to save her

[junior cape]

I dont think kaido is in the saving mood currently

[dark palm]

kaido also wouldn't really care

[junior cape]

He kinda got called a wimp and he wont have that

[crisp vine]

She Has Fallen Quite Far, I Don't Think Kaido Will Help

[junior cape]

Gravity's a bitch, ain't it?

So big mom will most likely survive this

Because as smoothie put it, its dumb to judge her by normal standards

Kaido, on the other hand, is just gonna wail on Luffy for a while

[lofty oak]

Would Luffy have been in on this plan? Probably not 😄

[dusky acorn]

Yeah Luffy wasn't in on the plan, he went ahead on his own accord to deal with Kaido, even Killer was surprised by it

So, the other 4 came up with the plan while that scuffle was going on

[pastel slate]

Thanks

[lofty oak]

Maybe the rest of the BM pirates will be below the floating island after climbing up the waterfall for the 3rd time

[dark palm]

yep

the only reason they didn't go up right away last time was that they weren't sure if it was safe

[dusky acorn]

And since their big bro Perospero went up just fine without being kicked down this time, they know the coast is clear

[lofty oak]

I wonder how fast the island flies/floats though

Maybe they're already above land?

[dusky acorn]

Well, Big Mom seemed to think at the end of the chapter that there's only ocean underneath her, so presumably we're not quite at land yet

The Editor's note also talked about Big Mom falling down to the sea in the raws, if you want to take that with a grain of salt, but added evidence

[copper frost]

It's a bit cheeky on Oda's part lmao

Also, she's facing up and hasn't seen if there's land or sea below, so even she can't be sure

[loud ibex]

im sure she will land in wano last time we saw the island almost near wano

[tepid radish]

Hypeeee

[pure raven]

Since on the cover of the issue saying approaching climax of the war how many chapters do y’all think we have left?

[dusky acorn]

The promotional message on the side has been saying climax for a while, meaning it isn't a very decisive indicator. I think there's around 25 chapters left until the war's resolution, and then about 10 for all the post credits after the fact

I might be highballing it, not sure

[ancient vault]

So there are 2 scenarios:
A: Smoothie or someone else catches her and she groups up with her crew again
B: Onig is already above wano and she falls onto wano land

[lofty oak]

C: Kaido saves her

[ancient vault]

Doubt it

[lofty oak]

True, not likely but not impossible

[ancient vault]

Smoothie with her giant hand

[dark palm]

that too

[sturdy hawk]

D: Big Mom turns into Olin

[lofty oak]

Maybe Big Mom will create another soul-cloud while she's falling?

[dusky acorn]

Supposedly making another homie just like Zeus isn't an easy thing to ask of Big Mom. She chose not to make a replacement for it during that entire time it was gone from her before, and found it more fitting to retrieve the existing one in Wano instead

[keen portal]

the only objects within her reach would be:

1. the rock
2. her clothes

[dusky acorn]

It's either she needs some special mass of clouds present, or it's risky to her own lifespan, or both

But anyway, if we're to look back at the scene of Jinbei and Robin hurling Big Mom out of the dome, that was only 3 pages

And that lasted a prolonged period of like, 8 chapters with her safely out of the dome

Whereas Oda spent a greater effort and time getting Big Mom out of the fight here, so it's safe to say it was done with good reason of her staying out for a long time

Might not even come back to the rooftop ever tbh

[keen portal]

ye I doubt she's coming back, until at least after Kaido's been defeated for good on the roof

[hot ice]

she's a wildcard right now

she could cause trouble for the alliance, revert to o-lin, stall her crew, or rally the crew and go elsewhere

hard to know but I like the wealth of possibilities

[odd lichen]

big mom will survive. kaidou can fly to save her.

[sturdy hawk]

My guess:
Big Mom falling onto wano will be how the flower capital is evacuated, then once Onigashima actually falls Big Mom will join back on the fight against Luffy

[hot ice]

so where does this fight in it's current state rank among one piece fights?

[pure raven]

Don't think it'll be Kaido saving her, the other supernovas are probably going to stop him if he tries. I'm guessing she's falling onto the Queen Mama Chanter since she's falling into the ocean according to her.

[hot ice]

I feel it's easy top 5. Doffy, Lucci, Oars all come to mind immediately as better at the least, but this is shaping up well

[odd lichen]

my another guess is that big mom'll fall to sea and kaidou will wipe everybody to sea or any place except Luffy

[sturdy hawk]

Another guess I had is that next chapter will try to prevent Kaido from using the flame clouds to pick Big Mom back up and then they'll fail

[dark palm]

it's been amazing, we'll see what the ending of it brings as always

rereading this will be monstrous...

[hot ice]

I think if we include the scabbards part this is my favorite fight so far

there's a possibility something will sour it but just the sheer force throwing themselves at kaido desperately is so cool

at this point Kaido has faced 14 characters, almost all of whom are high tiers and absolute monsters

and he's still looking pretty unscathed

honestly if I may hot take for a second I think this will end up being the most beat up we've seen luffy maybe ever

like post marineford almost dead level

[dark palm]

probably

marineford he got that scar, could have kaido give him another

[drowsy marsh]

Oda really emphasized that Zoro is hurt. I wonder who got it worse. Zoro or Luffy, who got a massive hit to the balls from Kaido.

[dark palm]

they're really both quite fucked up, hopefully we get some spotlight on the other three while they get some time to recover

[tender mulch]

Well the thing is that law teleproted zoro just in time. If he didn't I don't know what will happen to zoro. So thats why he was still able to fight even with those injury. And as for luffy. That's attack was much stronger than thunder bagua

[worldly anvil]

Can BM survives falling on concrete? I know Kaido can but they're not the same person

[dark palm]

yeah, she can

[hot ice]

eah zoro is fucking heavily hurt

[grizzled fog]

Absolutely can

[dark palm]

she's an iron balloon

zoro started coughing blood up at the end

[hot ice]

we got some pre ts zoro shit now. rememeber when he was constantly held together by string lol

[dark palm]

and that was only because he moved a bit to slice Prometheus

[hot ice]

man if this s solidified anything for me is that all out zoro isn't nearly as far from luffy as we though

[grizzled fog]

I could see zoro having to sit out til Hawkins buffs him

[hot ice]

like if luffy is bottom of S tier zoro is top of A tier

still a gap between them but he can do serious work

[tender mulch]

And we shouldn't forget about kidd. He literally took a punch from big mom.

[dapper mica]

I think it only works on smiles, not natural zoans

[sturdy hawk]

Blocking an attack for half a second that would have killed him if Law didn't get him out is a feat now?

[tender mulch]

I mean thats impressive.

[sturdy hawk]

😑

[grizzled fog]

😖

[tender mulch]

But It was really stupid move made by zoro trying to stop that attack

[grizzled fog]

Nah, wouldn’t say that. It was selfless, he did buy them just enough time to escape

[tender mulch]

I know. But if law didnt teleport him.zoro would be dead.

[keen portal]

yes and thats better than them all dying, in his eyes

[hot ice]

that's the point

[grizzled fog]

Yea obviously, but possibly all the others would’ve died without him

[hot ice]

zoro was prepared to die for his team

[grizzled fog]

It was a sacrifice

[gusty lodge]

is luffy going to get up?

[gloomy latch]

What if the raid fails and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G0dahUF_X4 this is how the straw hats defeat Kaido haha first robin creates armour for them, luffy for one leg for flying and armouring robins hands with haki, raid suit sanji for the other turning them all invis while flying, Zoro as one hand, man this could be great lol

[tender mulch]

Kind of surprised that kidd didn't got knocked out by big mom punch.

[zealous path]

This is random but it would be incredible if Robin's awakened DF involved using Busoshoku Haki with her extended appendages .

also I'm calling it: Big Mama will be saved by her pirate crew pulling a deus ex machina

[hot ice]

raid won't fail

[gloomy latch]

Like Katakuri comes to the rescue or something

[hot ice]

I think we'll have a tense moment in the next 15 chapters meant to make us feel like it will go bad

[zealous path]

no, like her pirate ship will act as a fall break

[hot ice]

but then alliance will barely pull it out

[zealous path]

instead of her plunging into the ocean...plus I don't think Katakuri even went with them actually.

[gloomy latch]

Or big mum just falls into the sea and dies haha jk that is the one thing that will never happen

Yeah wonder what he's up to

[zealous path]

exactly lul

blissfully eating donuts prob

[sturdy hawk]

Why is it a deus ex machina if it was set up that they are there

[zealous path]

It just so happens the boat is at the right x,y position for her to land on

[sturdy hawk]

They could follow Onigashima, not illogical

[zealous path]

That's fair, just seems like incredible foresight/luck for them to A) notice her falling and B) position the boat to be where she falls

[sturdy hawk]

Eh, the boat is huge tbf

[dark palm]

I mean, if they're following onigashima

[keen portal]

as coincidences and luck in one piece go, this still wouldnt be that far-fetched

[dark palm]

they'd notice her falling

don't have to literally catch her, they could save her

[zealous path]

Yeah, it's within the realm of Oda plotability for it to occur.

[dark palm]

🙄

it wouldn't be far-fetched at all, really

[zealous path]

Eh I know, I'm mostly just being hyperbolic when I say "deus ex machina"

[dark palm]

following onigashima after recovering and getting up the falls
big mom suddenly plunges from the top and falls into the water, every haki user on the crew senses her and probably sees the giant splash
the non-DF users save her

only reason it took them sooooo long to get up the falls before was their lack of communication

they stated they were scared of king

[zealous path]

Right, I do think there's a plan in Oda's mind having the crew & ship make it up the waterfall and head towards Onigashima

[dark palm]

what WOULD be deus-ex-machina is if katakuri suddenly appeared and caught her from the side of onigashima. This is still very feasible, even outside of one piece luck

so I do think it'll happen

would be a good avenue to reintroduce the crew

[zealous path]

The boat acting as an impromptu rescue pad is probably what's gonna happen, hence why I supposed that theory 😛

[dark palm]

I don't think she has to land directly on the boat anyways is the thing, she's falling FAST

she might straight crush it...

smoothie can turn huge, and daifuku has a genie

either of them could act

[zealous path]

either on the boat or by the boat so her crew could get her prob

[dark palm]

but yeah, either way they'd probably sense her

since it's big mom and multiple people there have haki

[plush pike]

Anyone else think this is the return of Olin? I mean, from a narrative standpoint, even if people didn't like Olin, it's bad writing to let Olin be a one-time-thing, surely?

[zealous path]

[dark palm]

I do think we will get an o-lin return, but I don't think it'll be here

unless she plunges straight into the water and isn't seen by anyone I guess lol

[plush pike]

Really? It's the perfect opportunity though, remembering how she became O-lin last time.

[zealous path]

I liked Olin, even liked kid lin-lin and Big Meme overall.

[dark palm]

she has more of a role to play

[plush pike]

I agree, as O-lin.

[dark palm]

o-lin awakening would seemingly signify the end of her this arc

[zealous path]

But Idon't think O-lin will occur again so soon. Seems tacky.

[plush pike]

So soon? It's been a loooot of chapters.

[zealous path]

Arc-wise, yeah.

[dark palm]

like I said, only way it happens again is if the lack of oxygen to her brain re-starts her amnesia

[plush pike]

Exactly

[dark palm]

but she'd have to land in wano

and she'd have to get ALLLL the way to the capital

[plush pike]

Very true.

But she did state there's nothing but water underneath right? So she is going to land somewhere in water.

[zealous path]

plus we're in the middle of the big fight finally...would be jarring if she got amnesia again right now of all timings

[dark palm]

yeah that's why we're working with the theory that her crew will save her

[plush pike]

So she'll have to make it back to the capital regardless

[dark palm]

since that would give her an additional slice of relevance and an actual sense of wtf is going on

because o-lin wouldn't know to go to the capital

[plush pike]

Maybe she smells oshiruko there. From the partying.

[zealous path]

bruh lol

[plush pike]

Dude this is Big Mom we're talking about. She has a nose like a million hounds

[dark palm]

do you guys think she saw the ground?

or just assumed

[sturdy hawk]

I mean she didn't know that she had no ground underneath when law pushed her, so I'm guessing she just assumed

[plush pike]

No? She lands in the ocean and gets swept onto the shore of Wano is my guess..

[zealous path]

I'm pretty sure the focus is on Big Mama engaging the five....it really wouldn't make sense for the story progression to have her have Amnesia again when the whole point of that was to drag her to Udon basically and shake things up there.

[dark palm]

I do think the amnesia serves some deeper purpose but now is not the time for a focus on that

[plush pike]

Eh, if that's the entire plot thread then why include her wanting to share oshiruko with the villagers?

[dark palm]

oda could have very well just had her show up on as shore passed out and had queen need to go there

[zealous path]

...Because she wasn't "Big Mama" and it was showing to the audience the difference of personality - her being selfless as Olin

[plush pike]

Yeah? So what's the point of showing that if literally the only reason was to shake things up in Udon?

[dark palm]

I think these can both be true

her not showing the amnesia plot thread yet while also it having more to it

[zealous path]

I'm saying she only got amnesia so Chopper & co. could travel with her safely to Udon.

[plush pike]

Of course, I'm not saying there wasn't a point in Olin shaking things up in Udon, I'm saying there's definitely more to that plot line.

[dark palm]

sure, but that's a different argument

I don't think now is a great time for an extrapolation on that

[plush pike]

This is literally the golden opportunity plot-wise to give her amnesia again. She's falling, just like the first time, and there's water underneath, just like the first time.

[zealous path]

lol

[dark palm]

circumstances can match up without the rest of the context working

[plush pike]

I don't appreciate your argument-less comments Anonymoose it's very rude.

[dark palm]

it would introduce another variable to an already complex battle with tons of loose ends

plus it's hardly related to wano or the conflict

[zealous path]

I just think you're doubling down on an argument that'll never come to fruition so there's really no need to persuade you otherwise tbh

[dark palm]

refrain from making personal attacks, just poor taste

[plush pike]

Okay so make the case then instead of saying "lol"

[dark palm]

I think... we won't get o-lin stuff until like

[zealous path]

Not my intention, sry if it came across that way.

[dark palm]

post-wano or even a later arc

[plush pike]

Like Elbaf?

[dark palm]

could be, yeah

I'm very torn on her future relevance

one part of me wants her to be defeated here, but another feels like she could make elbaf a very satisfying arc

[plush pike]

But then, what about oshiruko and the villagers? Will we not get to see her trying to get them oshiruko at all?

[zealous path]

She's probably gonna be defeated in this arc. I can't imagine going through WCI and Wano, plus going all in on this fight, and still being a main antagonist featured in following arcs lmao

[dark palm]

I think THAT bit was more a vehicle to get her to Udon

[plush pike]

I think it makes huge narrative sense to have her follow the Straw Hats to Elbaf. She has already followed them once, so there's precedence for her to "leave her own arc" so to speak.

[dark palm]

like I said, part of me wants to agree. It's just imagining two yonko getting defeated in one arc is so difficult lol

[plush pike]

Seems like a missed opportunity to show end-game Big Mom, if in fact they defeat her by turning her into a good person.

[dark palm]

I mean, that can still happen

[zealous path]

That's a good way of putting it. Her amnesia was basically a story-vehicle to move her from the beach to Udon with Chopper & co safely.

[dark palm]

the oshiruko stuff specifically, the amnesia stuff is just

so radical that I can't see it being completely forgotten about

[zealous path]

I wonder if people think Afro Luffy will ever come back too...

[snow herald]

Oshiruko is delicious

[dark palm]

lol, afro luffy didn't make him a completely different person

[plush pike]

Are you equating Afro Luffy to the Amnesia plot line?

[zealous path]

Yes in the sense that it's a one time occurrence for an arc.

[plush pike]

They have very different lengths and purposes, and isn't just to make someone "cool".

[dark palm]

she became almost the same as she was when in mother caramel's orphanage

[plush pike]

Big Mom literally reverted to a better person, that has huge future plot relevance. Afro Luffy does not.

[zinc iris]

And he agreed to just chill with Croc
Seeing their dream in the cover story is pretty singular considering how they turned out to be as adults

[plush pike]

Afro Luffy is more of a gag and a stylistic choice. Oda changes the styles of his characters every arc, that's a given.

[zealous path]

I feel like you're missing my point deliberately because you really really want Olin to be a reoccuring thing...

[plush pike]

I think it's false equivilancy.

Just because two plot points share one trait, that being that they both occurred once, does not mean they share all traits.

[zealous path]

I don't think so. I think Afro Luffy only occurred in one arc and Olin will only occur in one arc as well.

[pure raven]

Big mom pack 🚬

[plush pike]

I think that's akin to saying in the beginning of Thriller Bark that Brook should only occur once IMO, and that after he left the ship he should just stay gone.

[zealous path]

Amnesia based plots never have relevance beyond their initial usage in most shows, I've never seen amnesia occurring again as a trope lol

[plush pike]

I see you have a bias against amensia plot lines, but I think Oda needs to do it justice, because right now it's incomplete.

[zealous path]

I don't agree. Luffy asked him to join the crew, and he obliged, indicating he'd be a permanent fixture plus all the IRL teasers of Brook prior to that anyway.

[plush pike]

Agree, which is why I said "akin", not "equal to".

[dark palm]

I don't see why that has any bearing on this situation, in which her personality completely changed then reverted immediately with no memory of having acted the way she did. If we want to compare amnesia cases in other situations, look at sabo. He didn't revert to some past version of himself

[zealous path]

Give me one anime that has ever used an Amnesia trope for a prominent character more than once. I'll wait.

(Psyduck doesn't count btw)

[dark palm]

if you do that use #other-series :)

[plush pike]

Yeah I'm not going to use other series as a guideline for the greatest piece of manga ever constructed.

[dark palm]

but like I said, I don't know why other series have any bearing into what this specific situation entails

[zealous path]

That's because you can't think of any shows that had their character get amnesia twice. Because that would be tacky and lazy story writing tbh.

[plush pike]

O-lin definitely has a place in Wano, and just the name screams and begs to be dissected, in Wano.

[dark palm]

I think the assumption here is that the amnesia would represent something different than amnesia

[plush pike]

If not done right, sure.

[dark palm]

a direct change in psyche from some traumatic moment

[zealous path]

That's a different argument entirely, he's supposing she's gonna get amnesia twice lmfao

[dark palm]

oh, that's what I've been saying

[plush pike]

Right, amnesia would represent a different personality, someone Big Mom could reasonable be, not just memory loss.

Usually with amensia the point of it is to slowly re-reveal stuff a character already knows. This is different.

[zealous path]

You think Big Mama is gonna end up with a different personality after this? and you think this'll occur following the events of her plopping into the ocean followed by washing up on the shore again?

[plush pike]

Not permanently no, but it's going to signal a different part of Big Mom that could reasonably end up being permanent in the future, when her character arc ends (possibly in Elbaf).

[dark palm]

I think the next time we see it, it WILL be permanent

or some level of her struggling against it

so that's why I don't think it's happening here

[plush pike]

I'm fine with you doubting it, and I can see why you'd say that, you don't like amnesia plot lines. I'm saying this is not a primarily amnesia-related plot line, it's a personality change plot line.

I don't see a reason to think the next time has to be the permanent time.

[zealous path]

I never said I don't like amnesia plot lines, I said doing an amnesia plotline twice makes for lazy story writing.

[plush pike]

Lazy? What's lazy about it? He took the time to really develop O-lin, I wouldn't use the word lazy at least.

[dark palm]

anonymoose is saying that if just used as a pure amnesia thing again, it would be lazy

[plush pike]

I don't get how it would be lazy. Oda always follows up his storylines with some level of justification.

O-lin has not, in my opinion, been justified yet.

She just suddenly disappears and Big Mom regains her memory.

[zealous path]

It was literally just so she could be around Chopper & co without trying to kill/eat them. That's plenty of justification right there.

[plush pike]

Dropping the plot line altogether when you've cut it off so suddenly is what I would think is lazy.

It's like "I'mma just use this amnesia plot line on a yonko once and then never talk about it again".

[zealous path]

Cut it off so suddenly? She regained her memory, which was bound to happen and I'm sure the audience was in on that being the case dude.

[plush pike]

Yeah, but there wasn't a huge plot point to her regaining her memory, it just happened.

[zealous path]

I don't think there needed to be considering she served her purpose (shake up Udon, then get taken to Kaido)

[plush pike]

Ehhh, so if you hype up something for a long time and then suddenly just "you served your purpose" and cut them off without ending their arc satisfactory, that is pretty much lazy writing if I ever saw it.

Like, imagine if Viola, after having helped the Straw Hats in Dressrosa, just suddenly disappeared and we never heard from her again, like in the middle of the arc?

[zealous path]

uh

we more or less stopped hearing from her after the Alabsta arc was finished until Reverie anyway lmfao

[plush pike]

Just "I have to pop down to the market and get groceries, I served my purpose so you're fine now right?"

That's not how you write a story

[plush pike]

Not Vivi, Viola.

[zealous path]

My bad, saw that at a glance. But my point still stands anyway considering Viola helped the strawhats in Dressrosa then we didn't hear from her till Reverie as well.

[plush pike]

What do you mean, she was there in the end of the arc no?

[zealous path]

Yes... she served her purpose too lol
just like Olin did and now Big Mama is doing.

[plush pike]

But she was there the entire arc, Oda didn't just cut her off the moment she had used her abilities to help the Straw Hats.

[zealous path]

Okay...but you're making a comparison between a character versus an amnesia-induced character

[plush pike]

Yes, because I think O-lin has her own personality and story-arc

Using alternate personalities in a character as a vehicle for a deus-ex-machina rescue and then just dumping it along the road is what's lazy writing IMO

[zealous path]

...so you think the only way to salvage such lazy writing is by re-introducing her...

[plush pike]

Especially when that alternate personality is well-developed.

[ancient vault]

Well using amnesia to get BM out of the fight and make her less of a threat can be arguably considered lazy writing in my eyes

[plush pike]

It's not lazy writing unless you drop it is my point.

[ancient vault]

Since it was already used once

[plush pike]

And never finished in a satisfactory way.

[supple nimbus]

She had no idea Sabo and Luffy were related, nor did Sabo himself....

[plush pike]

What happened to the oshiruko plotline where O-lin wanted to give the villagers oshiruko, which is why she went to Udon in the first place?

[zealous path]

So you're not satisfied unless Big Mama gets amnesia again just to deliver red bean soup to the village, huh

[plush pike]

It just disappeared when Big Mom regained her memories, she doesn't even acknowledge it.

[plush pike]

"just"? It was a pretty significant plot point.

[zinc iris]

Amnesia used in stories is always extremely cheap and convenient

[zealous path]

Ah, excuse me for downplaying such an important detail lol

[zinc iris]

It's basically a cheat code for writers

[plush pike]

So you'd rather just leave it as a half-baked potato in One Piece history and not have it end in a satisfactory way?

[ancient vault]

Using it to often can be considered lazy. Amnesia just resets everything

[zealous path]

Yes but apparently Freshairkaboom loved it so much he wants it to happen again. idk

[plush pike]

It's not "too often" if it's for the same reason in order to finish a story thread.

[zinc iris]

Especially because it's so arbitrary as a reader you have no expectations whatsoever for tension

[plush pike]

I'm saying I don't love the current state of the amnesia plot line, and I'd like for Oda to finish it in a good way.

[zinc iris]

Considering how fictional amnesia is so so so so removed from the real thing

[ancient vault]

But the story is not important at all Kaboom.
Which one is more significant?
She stays a threat in the war as a yonko vs delivers red bean soup to the village

[worthy hedge]

the amnesia plot line was to get big mam help luffy escape and give king a chance to glow

[zealous path]

Half-baked? Dude, Olin was just more considerate of other people than Big Mama is. There's not much more to extrapolate from that, just let it go lmao you won't see O-lin again, hate to break it to you.

[plush pike]

Which is why we're discussing it now that she fell off the roof into the ocean

[ancient vault]

The red bean soup plot line is nothing major at all compared to the fact that shes supposed to be a threat this war

[zealous path]

Yes, that's what I've been saying for the last half hour but for some reason that's just not satisfying enough

[plush pike]

You're really sure of yourself.

[zealous path]

Likewise? lol

[plush pike]

I'm not even saying something as brave as "it will definitely happen", I'm making a case. You sound like you're sitting with Oda's notebook open on your lap.

[ancient vault]

Im sure we will see her again towards the end of the arc whether we like it or not. Just not now. I dont think this is the time for it now

[worthy hedge]

Yo the amnesia was just to get big mam on the islande and show how strong king was that he hit the boat and big mam almost drowned her self

[zealous path]

It doesn't take Oda's secret manuscript to know Big Mama isn't gonna drop out of the Fire Festival fight just to become Olin again and deliver red bean soup to a village lmfao

[plush pike]

This is the perfect time IMO, what other time could we end up seeing it? She is literally step-by-step following the recipe of the first amnesia. Falling into the sea.

[plush pike]

She may be involved in the events at the flower capital as O-lin.

[worthy hedge]

no the village should be saved by the alience and not big mam

[fathom matrix]

Ok, there was this one theory where if someone's haki was stronger than Law's, his abilities like shambles, the mind switch, or cutting people up wouldn't work. This kinda confirms it.

[worthy hedge]

it was just to sow you that big mam had a nice hart beside the hate that she has

[plush pike]

I think that was confirmed with Vergo, I was reminded of a while back.

[worthy hedge]

it was just like her back story that she is the innocent litlte girle that doesnt know anything that is happening

[plush pike]

I'm not saying it will be saved by Big mom, I'm saying she will make true on her promise to bring them oshiruko.

[zealous path]

That also feels like a "duh" moment. Otherwise Op-Op-No-Mi would be super stupid busted

Imagine having a DF so powerful you could easily beat people with 10x your Haki. Lemmie get a bite of that.

[worthy hedge]

they had to nerf law because we would be like why didnt he do that

[plush pike]

Like Sugar's devil fruit with Luffy 😛

You can't tell me Luffy doesn't have at least 10x the haki of Sugar 😛

[zealous path]

I don't recall Luffy turning into a toy...

[plush pike]

But hey, at least now we can make the case that Sugar wouldn't one-shot Kaido.

[worthy hedge]

he didnt turn

[ancient vault]

he almost did

[plush pike]

Because she didn't touch him yeah

[worthy hedge]

also it is a 50 years old Yonkuo

[zealous path]

Plus he didn't get the power boosts that he got during WCI esp vs Katakuri yet

Otherwise he could've sensed danger was imminent before she touched him.

Yeah, I can't picture someone like Sugar turning Kaido or Big Mama into toys. Or Blackbeard or Shanks. Yonkos are just on a whole 'nother level

[plush pike]

I think it speaks to a deeper truth about the nature of devil fruits, at least so far what I've gathered. I think the reason devil fruits interact with haki the way they do, is because it's a battle of wills between the devil inside the fruit and the willpower of the target.

[zealous path]

Haki was needed to keep DF in check

[plush pike]

So basically, devil fruits contain the inherited will of devils.

[zealous path]

Otherwise DF powers would be really stupid to deal with

[plush pike]

I know the narrative reason haki was introduced, this has nothing to do with that

[zealous path]

well it does, not just narrative wise but also in terms of laying out "rules" for the OP universe

[pure raven]

do i have to be caught up to be here

[plush pike]

You should yeah

[zealous path]

No lol pointless bickering, not even one mention of donuts.

[pure raven]

too bad ): ok bye

[plush pike]

So you're telling me that in the story, haki was "introduced" as a way to deal with DF powers? Like, an invention?

[zealous path]

Like for example Smokey would be untouchable for Luffy unless Haki was introduced.

[plush pike]

That makes no sense to me.

[zealous path]

Even during the One Piece Rampage movie, Sanji was able to clash with Smokey soley bc he had access to haki.

[crude tiger]

Big Moms fate from here

1. Big Mom falls to the ocean and dies
   2)Kaido saves Big Mom
   3)Big Mom lands on her ship
2. Big Mom manages to create a new cloud homie or a temporary substitute
   What else do you thinkll happen

[plush pike]

Yes, I know, that was the reason Oda invented haki, but dude, lets move on into the story justification for haki interacting with devil fruits the way it does.

[fathom matrix]

She's probably gonna go on dry land

[zealous path]

You forgot 5) she falls into the ocean, gets amnesia, then comes back as Olin to follow through on delivering red bean soup to the village....gotta think of all the possibiltiies brooo

[plush pike]

5. She falls into the ocean, washes up on shore and becomes O-lin, then smells oshiruko from the Flower Capital and heads there

[crude tiger]

Bro lmao imagine if this happens

[muted ember]

is this perspective, or is she actually that far up?

[keen portal]

1. she's fallen into the ocean, and NOT died previously.
2. not feasible as luffy and the other 4 novas will keep him busy
3. very VERY VERY conincidental

[fathom matrix]

They're probably not even on top of the ocean anymore

[plush pike]

She said there was nothing but ocean underneath no?

[fathom matrix]

WAIT, did she check?

[plush pike]

[fathom matrix]

cause there was, but the island was floating and moving, maybe she might fall and go "huh, I guess we're past that point"

[plush pike]

To be honest Oda could write it however he wants, but I'm just assuming there's ocean underneath because that's what she said. It's like probable cause.

[zealous path]

Pretty much covered it already dude. Haki is a means of keeping DF powers in check. I'm sure even within the universe setting the early usage of Haki was a means for otherwise-normies to combat DF users.

[plush pike]

Haki was invented to combat DF users? That's your entire explanation?

[fathom matrix]

I get what he means

[zealous path]

I didn't say invented, I said used.

[plush pike]

But why does haki interact with devil fruits the way it does? That was my question, not what haki was used for.

[zealous path]

Haki was probably more of a discovery considering it's spiritual energy residing in powerful individuals.

[fathom matrix]

he understands the uses of haki, he's just wondering why it exists, as in the context of the story and why does it work on devil fruits specifically, not by a production standpoint on Oda

[plush pike]

My explanation touches on a deeper aspect of "why?" instead of "what?"

Devil fruits contain the inherited wills of deceased devils is my theory.

[zinc iris]

Then the straightforward answer is that such are the natural laws of the OP world

[plush pike]

But even if something is a natural law of OP, you can still explain it further.

[zinc iris]

Natural laws don't have a "motive"

[plush pike]

Never said they had to have a motive, just a mechanic..

[zealous path]

Exactly.

You're trying to find reason within spiritual energy.

[plush pike]

Yeah? Because if spiritual energy existed IRL, you don't think scientists wouldn't be all over that bad boy trying to work out its secrets??

[fathom matrix]

Like, maybe a ponoglyph or a vegapunk explaination could explain it

[plush pike]

coughVegapunkcough

[fathom matrix]

like, why it happens or why it effects devil fruits specifically

[plush pike]

Exactly.

[zealous path]

They are and you can visit the CIA library to see what they've disclosed about their studies into the spiritual and the metaphysical.

[plush pike]

Could also have to do with devil fruits having a "voice" like Kaido talks about in this chapter.

[zinc iris]

I hope it's not tied to the void century or it would make the world re loving around a singular point i stead of having independent parts interacting

[plush pike]

With Luffy and the others obviously, not with fruits.

[zealous path]

But think about it, if Haki(spiritual energy) is a means of interacting with Devil Fruit abilities, it should tell you that Devil Fruits probably have a spiritual-quality to them.

and they probably do if they go through a reincarnation-like cycle when a user dies and a random fruit suddenly becomes that DF

[plush pike]

Exactly, why is why I think it's the inherited wills of devils.

[zinc iris]

They would but IRL you don't have scientist question "why" does matter/energy deform spacetime creating the illusion of gravity. It just does and scientists investigate which are the right equations to describe the phenomenon to better understand how it works and how can be utilized

[plush pike]

Exactly why they can do all that wacky shit is still up in the air, but it might be that devils have an inherent ability to conjure dreams into reality or something

[fathom matrix]

Maybe haki works because it's will based sure, but it's kinda spiritual, being able to sense aura and stuff. So devil fruits could be considered soul like powers because they reincarnate and hell, when an object gains the power, they come to life.

So it's using lifeforce to fight lifeforce.

[plush pike]

Why and how is the same aspect here. "Why does it work" is the same as "How does it work" in science.

[zinc iris]

But gravity wasn't "invented" with a "purpose"

[plush pike]

I'm not arguing for a purpose, please pay attention, I'm arguing for a mechanic that allows haki and devil fruits to interact in their unique ways.

[zealous path]

I wouldn't get too fixated on the "devil" labeling either. Something I've noticed about the series overall that I think Oda really tries conveying: is that there is no absolute good or absolute evil beings, there's a lot of gray area and you can't suppose things by looking at them on the surface (like whether a ship is piloted by Pirates or Marines doesn't make the ship good or bad)

[fathom matrix]

I understand why you mean

[plush pike]

Nobody said devils were absolutely evil.

[fathom matrix]

They're probably made via messed up methods, but not evil

[zealous path]

I'm saying they might not even be devils.

[plush pike]

They might not be, but there's probable cause here because of the name.

[fathom matrix]

Maybe the way they were made was "devillish" and the people who made them were called "devils" hence "devil fruits"

[plush pike]

It might also be that devils is just the name of the enemies of the celestial dragons, a.k.a. the gods, and they were labeled as such without actually being a devil race.

[zealous path]

The name is the name because urban legend would suppose eating one is the equivalent to making a deal with the devil (you gain immense power at a trade off)

[fathom matrix]

they weren't actually devils, but it's like how women in the 14th and 15th century who cured diseases or fixed up brews or whatever were called "witches"

[zealous path]

Not because literal devils made them for whatever purpose

[plush pike]

However, what if the crime of the celestial dragons in the void century was genocide via control of the ancient weapons? They killed all the devils because they had powers that the celestial dragons wanted.

[fathom matrix]

I doubt actual devils did anything

[plush pike]

Doubt is good to have, but do you have a reason or an argument that debunks?

[zealous path]

Yeah, that's what I meant by "don't fixate of the devil labeling"

[plush pike]

I'm less interested in head canon than I am trying to piece together actual evidence from the series thus far.

[zealous path]

I supposed a pragmatic argument that carries more weight than a theory that actual devils made it.

The former indicates folklore coined the term "devil fruit"

[plush pike]

Well, it carries some weight obviously, but there's no narrative reason for why that might be the case, something that points to that conclusion

[zealous path]

There's no narrative reason for why you think actual Devil's wills made the fruit.

[fathom matrix]

Considering how they can be made and vegapunk's artificial dragon fruit was the biggest "success", I don't think it's anything too devil like or making a trade off with satan.

Like, the celestial dragons may have had dragons, I doubt charlos can fucking become like kaido and boro breath everywhere. Just because they have the name in there

[plush pike]

It's simply a loose explanation without anything in the story pointing to or away from it.

[zealous path]

Other than "it's in the name"

[plush pike]

Well, races are prevalent in the story, the celestial dragons are shown to be extremely xenophobic, they committed a crime so great that it had to be erased from history etc.

It doesn't point to devils directly, but it points to a race and possible genocide IMO

And yeah, it's in the name of the fruits, and the D. could stand for devil reasonably.

I had some more points, but that's all I can really think of right now.

All adding up to stronger evidence than "it's like making a deal with the devil" I think. Not conclusive obviously.

[zealous path]

I haven't seen a single compelling argument made to reinforce this theory...

[plush pike]

I just gave you several arguments.

[zealous path]

There hasn't been a single fruit-conjuring devil portrayed in this show.

[plush pike]

Ah right, I don't care if it's compelling to you if you don't have an argument to debunk.

Well that's obviously because they were wiped off the map, according to my theory xD That being said, what about King?

[fathom matrix]

Ok, Fresh

give us an example of a devil in the story, like anonymoose said

[plush pike]

Do you not read?

[zealous path]

In otherwords, your headcanon isn't a satisfying example dude.

[plush pike]

What...about King?

[zealous path]

What about King?

[plush pike]

Any counter-theories on what race he could be?

[zealous path]

Uh, are you supposing he's a devil now...?

[fathom matrix]

We don't know his race, but those wings aren't devil like, They're black wings.

[plush pike]

Are you supposing he's definitely not a devil?

[zealous path]

The burden of proof is on you for that lmao

[plush pike]

Okay so all you guys have is mindless criticism without substance because it's not "compelling"? I didn't come here to debate people with no arguments.

I'm not trying to prove anything beyond reasonable doubt, I'm trying to make the case that it could be true.

[zealous path]

You clearly do if you committed 30+ minutes arguing that your headcanon needs to debunked lmao

[plush pike]

It doesn't need to be, but unless you have something that does, what's the point of this conversation?

I'm just discussing with people who say "nah uh" to everything I say...

[hollow grotto]

Discussing possibilities on what something may be without having the need to prove whether or not they genuinely believe it to be true or if they actually believe it could be, is normal.

[plush pike]

^

[hollow grotto]

This entire chat is for sparking conversation. Debates and criticism is allowed, of course, just not when it isn't constructive and downplaying ideas just because there is reasonable doubt to be had.

[zealous path]

Okay, but he's supposing theories that don't make sense(fruits are the wills of devils genocided by the celestial dragons) and I proposed a more likely reason (folklore suggests eating funny-looking fruit is like a deal with the devil since it takes away your ability to swim)

[plush pike]

I mean, at least with the Big Mom amnesia thing you had a cause, that being that she could reasonably be seen to keep being a threat in this fight, which I kind of want and agree with. I also want to see Oda finishing the O-lin plotline.

[plush pike]

"don't make sense" - where's your argument?

[zealous path]

wills of devils is a thing you made up, it's not canon (as in, hasn't been portrayed in the story thus far). Therefore, doesn't make much sense.

[plush pike]

I can equally easily say your theory about folklore doesn't make sense, but I won't, because I have no arguments against it.

[hollow grotto]

Yeah of course, neither of you in this case are wrong to make your theories, even if they are baseless or entirely assumptive. It's definitely more likely to play the skeptic and assume a more likely outcome, like what you're proposing Anonymoose, but just let him have his fun lol

[plush pike]

Inherited will is a thing, devil fruits is a thing, xenophobia of celestial dragons is a thing, a great crime that needed to be wiped out of history books is a thing. That's evidence that gives probable cause to the likelihood of devil race IMO.

[hollow grotto]

I think the 'devil' aspect was more a conspiracy made by the Celestial Dragons to scare people away from eating the 'cursed fruit' because it grants power that would threaten them.

[plush pike]

We're all just trying to piece together a future story based on what we already know, sometimes it's not enough to convict in court, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

[hollow grotto]

But that's just my personal headcanon :)

[zealous path]

I'm not trying to interfere with anyone's fun lol, it's a conversation that's been evolving since the initial proposal and I'm simply not agreeing with some of the points being made. I'm not attacking him for his beliefs, just scrutinizing and being skeptic while providing an occum's razor.

[plush pike]

Could be.

[hollow grotto]

Alright, that's fair then. Sorry to bother the convo <3

[zealous path]

That's an interesting idea. Would also play into their animosity towards pirates. But then again they seem to have no issue with having underlings with fruit powers nor greenlighting experiments and scientific research into DF

[plush pike]

Occum's razor is a great tool in reality, but in One Piece, where wacky stuff happens all the time, and Oda goes out of his way to make something extraordinary, we can't as easily apply it.

[hollow grotto]

They seem to have a really high level of authority over so many people, and seem genuinely shocked when they are attacked on the rare occasion, so it wouldn't shock me if they expect Fruit users to just give in to them, as many have shown to do so in the past.

[plush pike]

Something mundane can in fact become less likely simply because it makes for a boring story. Keep that in mind.

[zealous path]

Occum's razor can be useful in any scenario including fiction if consistent logic & rules of the fictional world are established and followed.

[plush pike]

Sure, and if we use the rules of the fictional world to debunk my arguments, I'll retract them. But so far that has not been the case.

I use my evidence to point to a possibility, and you debunk it by saying "it could also not be true, which makes it not true".

[zealous path]

?

[plush pike]

Essentially.

[zealous path]

I remember saying "Wills of Devils is not canon" right?

[plush pike]

Where's your evidence for that?

[zealous path]

Unless you can point me to any panel that showcases wills of devils, then it's not canon.

[plush pike]

So One Piece is not real? It hasn't been shown yet...

[zealous path]

We know it's as real as Roger eludes it to be.

[plush pike]

But we have evidence that points to it being real, don't we? That's exactly my point. One Piece is canon.

[zealous path]

We don't know what One Piece is specifically, however.

We don't know if it's a single coin, a room full of treasure, a ship, a weapon, just an idea representing freedom, etc.

[plush pike]

No we don't. But evidence other than "show me a panel of X" is valid as a justification for the POSSIBILITY that x is canon.

[zealous path]

We only know Roger has announced he put all of "his treasure" in one place.

[plush pike]

You can't say "X is not canon" because we haven't seen a panel of it.

[zealous path]

False equivalence, dude. We know "One Piece" exists because Roger says so. We don't know "wills of devils" exist because nobody has even mentioned anything regarding "wills of devils" outside of your speculation.

[plush pike]

"Wills of Devils is not canon" is a positive claim, rather than a skeptical one. "Wills of Devils has not been shown to be canon" is more akin to what you want to say without evidence.

I agree with the second statement, but the first one needs evidence to back it up.

[zealous path]

Why would Ispeculate over something that was never once discussed in the show? Should I also believe there's secret poneglyphs too?

[plush pike]

Why would you not believe there's secret poneglyphs?

[zealous path]

You're missing my point. You're speculating over something that has no signs of even existing.

[plush pike]

The evidence I presented, has been discussed in the show however.

[zealous path]

Wills of Devils? When?

[plush pike]

I don't like repeating myself.

[zealous path]

I'm asking for a single instance of Wills of Devils and you haven't provided one.

[plush pike]

There's evidence to the point of reasonable suspicion about devil fruits, which we have lots of instances of, being the inherited will of deceased devils.

[zealous path]

we have lots of instances of, being the inherited will of deceased devils.
What? When?

[plush pike]

Devil fruits? You are not serious?

[zealous path]

inherited will of deceased devils.

[plush pike]

That's not what I claimed there was lots of instances of.

[zealous path]

Oh, I mis-read that.

Lemmie rephrase then: what evidence is there that devil fruits are the inherited will of deceased devils?

[plush pike]

Again, i don't like to repeat myself, i listed them above.

[dapper mica]

It’s kind of ironic that most of the characters seem to be atheist or agnostic, or at least don’t display any religion, but there seems to be a large spiritual element to OP

[plush pike]

Buddhism is very prevalent in Zoro's use of attacks for instance. Makes sense given that Oda is Japanese.

[zealous path]

This was the only thing you listed.

[plush pike]

Nope.

[zealous path]

The "it's in the name" argument and you're trying to tie the middle initial of D. into this and give it a meaning that hasn't been yet established.

[dapper mica]

This is the only point that seems like a good theory

[plush pike]

"Well, races are prevalent in the story, the celestial dragons are shown to be extremely xenophobic, they committed a crime so great that it had to be erased from history etc.
It doesn't point to devils directly, but it points to a race and possible genocide IMO
And yeah, it's in the name of the fruits, and the D. could stand for devil reasonably."

[zealous path]

...None of that has anything to do with deceased wills of devils.

[plush pike]

We're trying to weed out personal biases here, so please give me your best argument for why the rest is not a good basis for my theory.

[dapper mica]

But it’s unrelated to the current debate

[zealous path]

other than you saying "oh, that's because they were killed by the celestial dragons"

You're basically suggesting the deceased devils are from the lost era of time that no one knows about...

[dapper mica]

Because it’s unrelated

[plush pike]

In other words, you don't see the connection.

[dapper mica]

You’re arguing one thing then giving evidence for something else

[plush pike]

I'm tired of explaining to people what reasonable suspicion means.

[zealous path]

Exactly. You made an argument using your headcanon, but your evidence is all unrelated.

[plush pike]

You're all talking like I'm 100% certain this is going to happen no matter what and everyone else is stupid.

If you want that kind of debate, I'm done here.

[dapper mica]

D possible standing for devil has little to do with devil fruits having deceased devils in them

[zealous path]

No, I'm not. Other than you doubling down on Olin 2 electric boogaloo being a thing but it's not going to happen. lmao

[plush pike]

This channel will be dead because nobody can say anything else than "The One Piece is real" and "Luffy is going to become king of the pirates".

[plush pike]

"but it's not going to happen" make the case for it.

[dapper mica]

I do, I just don’t think the connections strong enough for the theory to be feasible

[plush pike]

Give me an example of something feasible that explains all of that then.

[ancient vault]

Is this about what D means?

[plush pike]

I'm not the one here pretending I have oda's notebook on my lap.

[zealous path]

"but it's not going to happen" make the case for it.
...I already did, and I don't mind repeating myself
Olin only happened so it would be safe for Chopper & co to bring her to the next part of the story.
She regained her memory when she needed to, and focused on her goal of meeting with Kaido.
A second amnesia storyline for big mama would be necessary, tacky and lazy storywriting, especially considering she's in the middle of fighting Straw Hat & co. like she wanted

[plush pike]

Yeah. Got any ideas?

[dapper mica]

Olin 2 might happen but I don’t think she will go back to Kuri to help the village or go looking for red bean soup, if Olin 2 happens I think she might just temporarily switch sides and fight kaido

[plush pike]

She's not though, she just fell off the roof, which is the entire reason we're discussing this in the first place.

If she is somehow saved in the next chapter and goes right back up, I'll drop my O-lin theory obviously.

But it's a reasonable expectation that it might happen.

[dark palm]

I left an hour and a half ago

[zealous path]

Lucky... I wish I had a life too 😦

[dark palm]

You guys are still on this?

What more is there to be said?

[zealous path]

ikr

[dark palm]

I think we should agree to disagree

[plush pike]

We went back to the O-lin thing now because we're discussing the difference between saying something might happen and something is definitely not going to happen.

[zealous path]

1010 can't come soon enough

[plush pike]

But then this channel would be dead

[ancient vault]

I adressed this before in my rocks theory (pinned) but basically I think its that Oda is playing around with the D. and doesnt like it to be set on one thing.
Like its not a coincidence that D. fits so many words in the context of the lore. Demon, Devil, Dawn, Dusk etc. or the :D smile
I think Oda is playing around with it and giving it several symbolic meanings as well as maybe one literal

[dark palm]

I don’t think it’s literal personally

[ancient vault]

Definitely several symbolic ones

[dark palm]

Like, it’s not gonna become “monkey dawn luffy”

[zealous path]

I don't think so either, and that's basically what we've been arguing over for the last half hour

[ancient vault]

Yeah I dont think so either

[dark palm]

IMO it was something bestowed to a line of people 800 years ago and it branched off

[plush pike]

Monkey Devil Luffy also sounds tacky I know

[dark palm]

Merely to signify those who served the old WG or something along the lines

[plush pike]

Well it's not really all we've been arguing over the last half hour no

[zealous path]

I basically said "don't take the devil thing literal, I think it's mostly folklore that they're called devil fruits" while he insists his headcanon theory has some merit but can't provide a single example for when wills of devils was ever mentioned even once in the story so far, then he proceeded to list unrelated examples to support his theory because...idk

[plush pike]

Could be

But I don't like using words like "merely" in a discussion about hype future events

I don't believe Oda is that kind of writer

He's going to make it epic, and heartwrenching and/or funny.

[plush pike]

That's a very dumbed down version of what I said.

[zealous path]

[plush pike]

First of all "unrelated" is a claim you need to make the case for.

When I make the connection between something, to debunk it, you have to make the case that there is not a chance that there is a relation.

[zealous path]

Uh...how are the wills of devils related to the story at all? Please don't say "it's in the name [of the fruits]" because that is not a good enough answer.

[plush pike]

Because what we're discussing here is not my certainty that something is true, but the connection between something unexplained and my theory, which fits.

The xenophobia, the great crime, the fact that we have devil fruits, but no devils in the story. King's unknown race. The D. possibly standing for devil. Trails of hints and evidence everywhere.

I'm not saying "this is the case" but you have not made the case that it isn't the case.

[pure raven]

Pls tell all the hints
Since i dont see any im intresstef

[plush pike]

I listed them above, just read.

[zealous path]

Celestial dragons xenophobia is unrelated to "wills of devils" they just hate poor people lmao
the great crime is unrelated to "wills of devils" too, you're basically cramming a square block into a circle hole rhetorically.
"the fact that we have devil fruits but no devils in the story" the absence of evidence is not evidence.
King's unidentified race is not evidence of there being devils.
The D. standing for wills of devil is as good of a theory as the D. standing for Dog and that's why Garp likes dressing like a furry sometimes

[plush pike]

1. Where does it say that Celestial Dragons "just hate poor people"?

[zealous path]

It's okay to speculate, I'm just saying I can spot the floss in your logic by a mile away if I'm being frankly honest.

[plush pike]

2. You still haven't made the case that "wills of devils" is unrelated, just stated the claim.

[plush pike]

3. The evidence of something without the presence of another related thing can hint at the existence of the other related thing.

[zealous path]

You still need to make the case that wills of devils are actually related, which you haven't done but for some reason you think you did.

[plush pike]

Sigh...You seem to have some learning to do on the whole "reasonable suspicion" thing I mentioned earlier. Do you understand what it is?

[zealous path]

From the way they treat anyone that isn't a Celestial Dragon. The way they view their help as 'lessers'

[pure raven]

@plush pike u didnt provide any evidence

[plush pike]

Yeah...? Xenophobia.

[plush pike]

I did, so this is the last time I will respond to any mention that I didn't.

[zealous path]

He's rhetorically cramming a square block into a circle hole and telling me to debunk it

[plush pike]

Anonymoose even edited his comment above from "you didn't provide any evidence" to "you didn't provide any compelling evidence". I rest my case.

[pure raven]

I dont even see a square

[plush pike]

You haven't made the case that it doesn't fit.

[zealous path]

I had to say "compelling" to tell you that while you think it's evidence, it's not actually convincing evidence to anyone...

[pure raven]

Anyways what yall think is now with orochi?

[plush pike]

It's still evidence, enough for reasonable suspicion.

[plush pike]

Still not dead, possibly about to be resurrected by Fukorokoju.

[zealous path]

I think Kaido should hit him again to be on the safe side.

[plush pike]

So when you guys said it's not evidence, what you really mean is the evidence is not convincing to you. Which is fine, but not enough for you to say "the evidence is unrelated" or "the evidence is not true".

[pure raven]

No, like i literally saw no evidence by you

[plush pike]

It was literally right above your first comment

[pure raven]

For me evidence is for example... ,, on whitebeards medicine was the symbol of doflamingo and the nurses look exactly like some woman that were besides doflamingo so thats evidence that doflamingi poisoned him

To me thats evidence

[plush pike]

You're used to evidence that can convict in court, are you?

[pure raven]

No idea

[plush pike]

We're discussing puzzle pieces that can fit the narrative but doesn't necessarily fit the entire puzzle yet.

[pure raven]

Btw i aint saying devil aint got nothing to do with the fruits etc.
I like that idea
Just dont see any hints or similar in the series

[zealous path]

Exactly

[plush pike]

Do you understand the difference? This is a theory channel, not a channel for only discussing things that is definitely the case.

[zealous path]

I don't oppose the idea of devils being in the story, but I'm insisting that there has been no real signs of literal devils.

[pure raven]

Theoryies need facts

[plush pike]

Yeah, and I provided some.

Not every piece of fact need to include the full conclusion.

[zealous path]

You're basically tying together unsubstantial points to make your conclusion.

[plush pike]

Just need to be something that could reasonably be tied in to the final conclusion.

[zealous path]

It's unconvincing because it's unsubstantial.

[pure raven]

A theory is a well-substantiated explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can incorporate laws, hypotheses and facts. <google

I dont got nothing against pure speculation btw
I do it often myself and its intressting to talk about

[plush pike]

Unsubstantial? Do you know what that word means?

[zealous path]

It has no solid basis in the actual story. How much further do I have to elaborate? lmao

[plush pike]

A scientific theory I think you're talking about.

If we were to ONLY discuss scientific theories in here, nobody would be using this channel.

[pure raven]

If its scientific of not doesnt matter

Ofc its scientific, we tryna figure shit out

[pure raven]

Thats not true
Tons of ,,scientific" theory in here and in one piece generally

[plush pike]

Science != scientific theory

[pure raven]

Science is literally everything

[plush pike]

Science is a process not a scientific theory, or even a body of scientific theories.

[gloomy stone]

Luffy will find the one piece

I solved all the theories eZ

[plush pike]

100% this channel if Keve has his way 😛

[zealous path]

Thank you Master Chef, very cool.

[gloomy stone]

u welcome anytime

[plush pike]

We can do science here, but everything doesn't need to add up to a scientific theory to be discussed here, understand?

[pure raven]

We just cant say much if there arent many hints etc to talk about

[plush pike]

A theory in colloquial terms is a hypothesis that may or may not be unfalsifiable.

[zealous path]

||he's only saying this so his Olin theory can still have legs for a week ||

[plush pike]

...?

[gloomy stone]

I have a question did One piece mention Emerald City or something

[pure raven]

Anyways im out enjoy the weekend guys

[plush pike]

You saying it doesn't have legs does not make it so.

[plush pike]

Enjoy the holidays bro

[zealous path]

Bellamy mentioned it during his speech about dreams, alongside the City of Gold and the One Piece. He dismissed it all as pure fantasy.

[gloomy stone]

so it must be true maybe

[zealous path]

Ch.1010 will make it so

[plush pike]

Yeah which is not out yet, and unless you have access to Oda's notebook you're not in your rights to say right now that it doesn't have legs.

[zealous path]

The Emerald City certainly has more legs to stand on than the Wills of Devils.

[gloomy stone]

The Emerald City could be Elbaf

[plush pike]

I don't disagree...

Why do you think my hypothesis about wills of devils is something I'm willing to die defending? I'm just trying to air it as a possibility but you won't even let me have that, and then I ask for reasons and you just say there's no evidence. Then I provide evidence and you say there's no compelling evidence. Like what am I to do here?

[gloomy stone]

Will of d

[plush pike]

Making a case for the will of D being something else would be a great start at debunking my Will of Devils theory.

[gloomy stone]

mmm Willing to be free even if it kills me?

[plush pike]

Will of D certainly has something to do with freedom, I agree.

[gloomy stone]

Even Garp wanted to be free that is why he never took the admiral position

[plush pike]

But I doubt it's the entire or even primary thing. It might be one of the attributes of the D clan.

[gloomy stone]

so what else what does the D clan have all in common

[plush pike]

Rosinante said that in his country, misbehaving children were told that if they didn't behave, they would be eaten up by the D clan. Doesn't sound like freedom to me.

[gloomy stone]

• wants to be free or Die trying
• when they die they have a smile
  -...

[zealous path]

I think you're generally defensive based on how the conversation has gone on for the last hour, but I don't mean that in a bad way and my aggressive debating over pointless shit certainly has a part in this. Mostly because the Olin thing put me on the disagreeable side I guess.

I'm just trying to air it as a possibility but you won't even let me have that
I'm not saying you can't have that, I'm just saying there's no mentions of wills of devils, or any literal devils in the story. I'm also saying the name "Devil Fruits" is likely derived from folklore spread across the seas over time about how eating these fruits give you special powers but take away your ability to swim, much akin to making a "deal with the devil"
then I ask for reasons and you just say there's no evidence
Because there's zero mentions of literal devils in the story thusfar.
Then I provide evidence and you say there's no compelling evidence
You listed unrelated reasons that even 3rd parties lurking agreed with me on so...
Like what am I to do here?
Let it go? If it's not a hill you'll die on then leave it be.

[plush pike]

"even 3rd parties lurking" Uhm like their opinion is less valid than yours?

I mean just because someone agrees with you doesn't mean you're right.

And you still haven't made a case for them being unrelated, you just keep repeating that they are unrelated without evidence

[zealous path]

I mean just because someone agrees with you doesn't mean you're right.
That's generally true, but I'm saying even other people reading the chat are telling you they're not seeing any substantial evidence coming from your argument.

[plush pike]

So argument ad populum?

Also, just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's not true either.

[zealous path]

This is called shifting the burden of proof. You're supposing the assumption that something could be true unless proven otherwise - hence why I keep asking you to prove they're related.

[plush pike]

No it's not. You made the positive case for my reasonable suspicion not being true. The burden is on you to debunk my evidence.

I mean, can you not even see how they could be related? Is that the issue?

Do you see the difference between the way we argue? You argue with certainty, while I'm arguing with hints and pieces of evidence that constitutes a reasonable suspicion.

[zealous path]

No. I'm not saying a conclusion is true because multiple people agree with me. I'm saying multiple people don't agree with you because your points made are unsubstantial to each of us.

[plush pike]

Which is entirely irrelevant and not an argument.

[zealous path]

I made the positive case that your suspicion is not reasonable. I'm pointing out that your argument is fallacious because you're supposing a conclusion using unrelated points and insisting they have merit of fact.

[plush pike]

Prove that I am supposing a conclusion. Prove that they are unrelated. Prove that my argument is fallacious (and please supply the fallacy), and please prove that my points have no merit of fact.

[zealous path]

I asked you how they are related and you have not comprehensively explained how they are related.

[plush pike]

Alright, so the problem here is that you don't see how they COULD be related.

[twin summit]

Pero pero gonna save big mom?

[plush pike]

We're dealing with probabilities here, not certainties. Do you understand?

[plush pike]

Nah, not Perospero, he's dealing with Marco.

[zealous path]

It entirely depends on the context of the argument. Some things I'm certain of, and some things I'm not. Some things are much more apparent to me and some things elude me. Merely a human processing things while eating ice cream.

[twin summit]

oh forgot about that xd

[plush pike]

That's fine then. I could explain how they are related in more detail, but I'd rather not just link my theory here. It's on reddit under the title The Devil Race Theory, and it's from 7 months ago if you are interested in more comprehensively reading it. I agree there's a lot of headcanon written below, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

[plush pike]

But the rest of the crew could.

I prefer not dumping my reddit threads on people and would rather discuss things here, but since you need more comprehensive explanations, I'll leave it as an option.

[zealous path]

In a nutshell, you're injecting headcanon into an ongoing story by loosely tying together vague points(like the initial D, the lost era, and origins of devil fruits) that can be speculated upon ad nauseam but never ultimately answered (unless of course Oda answers a relevant question or publishes more details within the manga/anime)

[plush pike]

Welcome to #manga-theories

This is what it's all about. Just look at the pinned theories.

[ancient vault]

#manga-theories is for serious theories with a basis

[ancient vault]

Why are you comparing your random headcanons with the well written out theories 🤨

[plush pike]

Literally just click on the Vegapunk & Longhead tribe one.

What do you people want from me, solid evidence that my theory is 100% true or it's not?

[zealous path]

Right...what I'm saying is, your theory is baseless because there's no mention of literal devils or any mention that the fruits are inherited from the wills of devils in the story. I gave an Occum's razor for why they're called devil fruits instead (that the name is derived from folklore).

[plush pike]

Not saying that's not true, but it doesn't debunk my theory in the slightest.

Which is my entire gripe with what you've said so far.

You said that it's NOT true. That's different from suggesting an easier explanation that could also be true.

[fleet scroll]

Hello boys and girls, i have a question that made me thinking...

[plush pike]

Shoot 🙂

[zealous path]

Let's see...I said this.

[zealous path]

I also said this a while ago.