manga-theories

[proven lion]

So why would the Nika fruit come 100 years after it failed the first time causing the 2nd world

And then wait 800 years to show itself again

Just doesn't even make sense really

[rough storm]

bro because devil fruit. when the user die the fruit goes to the closes fruits

joyboy had the nika fruit 900 years ago.

[proven lion]

It was the first devil fruit though

Very likely

[rough storm]

gorosie said. the nika fruits has been avoiding them for 800 plus years

[pure raven]

Avoiding them doesn't mean it hasn't appeared

[rough storm]

so lets say joyboy was 20 back in 900 years ago. and died 840. gorosie saying 800 plus is like saying 840 years ago too

[proven lion]

Maybe the Nika fruit is the only "natural" fruit and every other fruit is man made in a way

[rough storm]

no it did appear but was avoiding them forsome reason idk only oda knows

[proven lion]

So by that logic maybe the Nika fruit does not follow the same logic of other fruits

[rough storm]

i mean if you read one piece yeah lol

[pure raven]

The Harley Text only refers to the Sun God tho. I don't even know if the Sun God in each world is the same being or if it's more like a title.

[proven lion]

Maybe it doesn't just grow back on another tree

[rough storm]

idk how to explain only oda can lol

[candid saffron]

👉 #manga

wtf is this discussion spamming the theories channel

[rough storm]

probably not. the first sungod was probably nika. the second was joyboy

[proven lion]

Theory discussion?

Lol

[rough storm]

what do you think lol

[proven lion]

That's litteraly what I'm trying to say here lmfao

[candid saffron]

That's not how this channel operates

!theories

[lone hedge]

Please refrain from using manga-theories for joke theories, casual chit-chat, power scaling, bounty predictions or low-effort memes. This channel is for serious discussion- please read the channel description. Posts here must be in paragraph form, preferably with evidence, not just a one line open question.

[rough storm]

lol no ur not.

[proven lion]

That's what we are doing bro

[proven lion]

Yes it is lmao I said Nika was the first devil fruit probably and joy boy was part of the 2nd world

U just don't like to read

[rough storm]

u were saying. imu and the 20 kings wasnt part of the first world. and i said yes they were. it dont matter if the first world started 4000 years ago. it was imu and the 20 kings that defeated the ancient kingdom. and that started the void century

[proven lion]

They weren't part of the first world no because the coming of sun god Nika separates each world, the 20kings and Imu didn't defeat Nika they defeated JoyBoy.

What's so difficult to understand about that

[rough storm]

the 20 kings and imu defeated the ancient kingdom

[proven lion]

Yes but not the first sungod nika

They defeated joyboy

There is a difference

[rough storm]

the 20 kings and imu could have defeated the ancient kingdom then went and defeated joyboy the next year is still posibble

[proven lion]

What would be the point of having separate worlds then

If the first world was like 1 year before the 2nd world

Then what's the point of making a separation

[wise stump]

Yaa

At least few hundred years or maybe more even thousand

[rough storm]

just like the end of BC (before christ) and ad is only 1 event away

[proven lion]

Litteraly lmao

[proven lion]

Dude ur just reaching so hard to be right that ur not making sense anymore

I'm sorry

[rough storm]

lmao. man how are you not even understanding what im saying

[proven lion]

The worlds are separated by the coming of sun god Nika, there is no way that sungod nika came 2 times in a row in just 1 year.

Joyboy and nika are separate people

Nika was the first sun god

Joyboy came probably many years after

As did imu and the 20kings that defeated joyboy

[rough storm]

let me explain it in a simple way. big moms fruit was caramels devil fruit. and was transfer to bigmom in just a second after bigmom supposely ate caramel. yeah bro. its that quick

after nika died. his soul or power probably got transfer to a nearby fruit and joyboy ate it

[wise stump]

Man you're just stuck at ur own speculation not even trying to understand the obvious

[proven lion]

Okay so then why did the gorosei make it explicit that the fruit hid from the world for 800 years

[wise stump]

The obvious

[rough storm]

because the fruit was lookin for the chosen one

[rough storm]

well the obvious was that the nika fruit has a will of its own.

[proven lion]

So then why didn't it happen the same way before? U really believe that it just hopped from person to person back then?

Like come on

[rough storm]

cause joyboy was probably deem as a chosen one too

[wise stump]

It has but gorosei clearly stated it's extremely difficult to awaken mythical zoan then how can joyboy even attempt to awaken in time like 1 year

[pure raven]

The worlds were not 1 year apart

[rough storm]

lucci, kaku. the jailer in impel down lol. it depends on the fruit brother

[proven lion]

Ur useless to argue with I'm not going to lie none of what ur saying is adding up.. not going to argue with u anymore because truly I can tell that I'm not going to get anywhere but what I will do is add u because I cannot wait to be right and show u lmfao.

[pure raven]

Makes zero sense

[proven lion]

Litteraly

[pure raven]

He said Mythical Zoan

[wise stump]

Exactly

[rough storm]

its still a zoan fruit

[proven lion]

I added u as a friend and don't worry I will remember this conversation

[pure raven]

You don’t need nowhere near enough training and experience to awaken a giraffe compared to a god

[rough storm]

also. not sure if you forgot. in one piece history. 900 years ago. the 100 years was void. no one knows what happen in those 100 years. thats why its called the void century.

[proven lion]

@pure raven @wise stump what do y'all think of my theory it got buried in this conversation

[rough storm]

joyboy probably ate the nika fruit and awakened it 20 years after.

[pure raven]

Possibly

[proven lion]

Click it and read it, I'm hella convinced

[rough storm]

i like a healthy conversation like this.

[wise stump]

Possible

[pure raven]

Yeah its good

[rough storm]

true because for the god u need to die first. lmao.

[proven lion]

Thanks @wise stump I just think that hat at Marie Jois was too suspicious and now with that Harley text being at Elbaph the shit is just too obvious the first sun god was a Giant

[pure raven]

[rough storm]

but elbap mural clearly showed nika as a regular human size compare to giants

[proven lion]

Because that's Luffy

[wise stump]

Man u brought the hat it reminded me of that viral gohdroger theory of op it was wild which included time travel prince daren or something and in that the hat was key to the treasure at marie joise and it his the battery

[rough storm]

lol bro why do people think the mural is the future. first of all. emeth is there. the ancient giant that you guys thought that loki is weilding a spear. nika is holding a sword and a shield lol. bro thats not luffy thats the past event

[proven lion]

It's definitely Luffy

[wise stump]

It's not Luffy but a representation of him in future maybe

Like each represents someone

[rough storm]

thats nika from the past or maybe joyby. not luffy

[wise stump]

I said in future battle will be somewhat like that

[rough storm]

emeth is already dead. so who is that giant robot that looks like emeth

[proven lion]

We know it was written in the void century also so with that being said it could also be joyboy or simply a representation but that also could just be to let the readers know that it is indeed someone with the sun gods power, because the very first time we saw a silhouette of the sun god power it looked exactly like that with the sword and shield, the point.

[wise stump]

Likely Luffy will take place of joyboy emeth will be Franky ancient giant will be loki and so on

[proven lion]

I still think it's a representation of Luffy

Simply because he has the power now

Do I think he will end up with a sword and shield? I mean maybe we know that he can create stuff out of thin air maybe that's part of the full power

[rough storm]

i mean luffy does have the nika fruit so ofcourse luffy will look exactly like the silhoute

[rough storm]

doubt it

[proven lion]

Why tho

[wise stump]

Highly unlikely

[proven lion]

We know he created glasses out of thin air

[rough storm]

knowing luffy. i dont think he will change his fighting style to using a sword and a shield

[wise stump]

Zoro and sanji can be a representation of sword and shield

[proven lion]

I like that

Left and right hand

Ohhhhh ur cooking

[rough storm]

but if the first nika was indeed a giant then it make sense for nika to weild a shield and a sword cause we know giants use weapons

[wise stump]

Yeah

[proven lion]

Let me double check where each thing is hold on

[rough storm]

zoro could be a sword but how is sanji a shield?

[proven lion]

Oh my god yeah it is on the right and left

[wise stump]

It's a metaphorical representation of his weapons

I mean could be

[proven lion]

It makes sense to me

[rough storm]

i get that but how do we interpret sanji as a shield tho? he cooks and use his legs to fight lmao

[proven lion]

His armor power maybe?

[wise stump]

By that logic Zoro represents more shield behaviour due to his armament advantage

I doubt sword for sanji though

[rough storm]

true then who is the sword cause obviosly not sanji lmao

[proven lion]

I also don't think it's coincidence that they called Raleigh right hand and Scopper left hand

[proven lion]

Zoro

[rough storm]

i still think. the first owner of nika was a giant. hence why imu have a giant strawhat

[proven lion]

Bruh lmfao that's my theory

[proven lion]

Sanji has armor powers now with his suit I think that is the representation being made

[wise stump]

Oh or it could his germa power

[proven lion]

That's what I'm saying yeah

[rough storm]

he destroyed his suit

[proven lion]

He will get it back trust me

[rough storm]

he doesnt need it. from what we saw. i think his body is already way more powerful than the suit.

[proven lion]

Then he is the shield I think

[rough storm]

i still think the mural was from the past. because emeth was there

[proven lion]

Idk maybe, but emeth could also be franky

Looks a bit like him if u ask me

But I'm not putting my stocks in that one

[rough storm]

no way luffy or his crew would rock this flag

[wise stump]

Bruh oda is giving good time to Franky and his adventures he might be getting upgrades

[proven lion]

I think emeth could simply just not be truly dead

[proven lion]

That's Vivi bro

[rough storm]

nah. now ur streching. doesnt look like the alabastan flag

[proven lion]

Alabasta flag

[rough storm]

not even the same

[proven lion]

It's pretty similar bro

[wise stump]

But same is sun pirates

And others related to joyboy type

[rough storm]

sun pirates looks like a sun

[wise stump]

I am saying mark

[proven lion]

Same amount of dots around the circle

[rough storm]

same with mother flame

[proven lion]

U gotta remember it was kids who drew it, it's not going to be exact everything looks chopped

[rough storm]

hold on i think ur right. it is similar to alabasta flag. because lily was the one who started the D clan

who was from alabasta

[proven lion]

Yes exactly

Idk if she started the D but she was definitely the first D we know of

[rough storm]

yeah it was stated that she was the earliest known who carries the will of D

joyboy wasnt a D

[proven lion]

Yeah maybe but it all adds up

[rough storm]

because if lily was the first one who carry the d name and joyboy live in the same era as her and knowing joyboy was from the ancient kingdom. then yes joyboy is not a d lol

thats probably why joyboy failed cause he didnt have the d

[proven lion]

I think when the Harley talks about the half moon it's talking about the D

[rough storm]

thats the theory that the half moon was the d clan. but if lily was the earliest known who carries the D then was alabasta the half moon people

[proven lion]

I don't think it's that simple because we have to remember Saul is a D

And he's a Giant

[rough storm]

and we have to remember scopper said that back in teh days people actually doesnt care what race you were.

[proven lion]

I think D is probably something like a bond of people, like people who came together not through family but through a common goal.

[honest comet]

Or it could just be a Flag to represent the fish-men during the war

[proven lion]

So the people of D probably aren't related by blood but by Will

[rough storm]

i mean they probably are. like look at katakuri. he have a lot of siblings that are in a different race lol.

[proven lion]

Maybe idk I think the D is probably the most complex part of one piece

It could mean a lot of different things

I feel like we know more about the void century then we know about the will of D for example

[rough storm]

i think the will of d just means liberation or revolution to fight against the powerful.

i still think joyboy got taken over by the nikas fruit will and became evil that made his crew and imu to kill him.

[proven lion]

I just don't buy that cus like I said the reason it happens is because of will power, and if we know joyboy had the most will power based off his haki then we know that it would be impossible for him to lose that kind of battle dude.

Just doesn't really make sense

[rough storm]

but him failing contradicts that. he didnt have the will to do what he has to do

[proven lion]

Not really he was just defeated somehow that doesn't mean he didn't have the will.

Haki is will power

[rough storm]

haki mean two things. will or strenght

[proven lion]

No it exclusively means will power

We know that because conquerors haki is litteraly u imposing ur will over others

[rough storm]

then how do you explain observation haki and armament haki

[proven lion]

It's through will power like I said it's extensions of ur will

[rough storm]

but i think the will of D and willpower like haki is 2 different thing

[proven lion]

Yeah it is probably but that has nothing to do with the will power u have to have to control a devil fruit

[rough storm]

just because you have haki doesnt mean you are immune to foriegn power.

[proven lion]

But we know that for example Luffy is clearly able to control his power without it overcoming him

With that being said it to me obviously has to do with how strong ur will is over the fruit.

[rough storm]

g5 is clearly showing that luffy can't fully control it because he cant control his laughter.

[proven lion]

That's part of the fruit itself but it doesn't mean he lost his will to it, the fruit I feel is very similar to Luffy.

[rough storm]

but its clearly a sign that the will of nika is getting into him by laughing uncontrollably even in a serious situation

for example on egghead island. luffy was still laughing even after he saw vega punk got stabbed to death

[proven lion]

To an extent maybe but I don't think it over comes him, we know that because he can change back and forth pretty seamlessly

[rough storm]

knowing luffy. he wouldn't be laughing specially after seeing someone getting killed or knowing people are dying around him

[proven lion]

So ur implying he doesn't have full control yet? So then let me ask u this how do u think he will get more control?

I think the answer is haki bro, the stronger ur haki is the more u can control it.

That's my point

[rough storm]

no he does have control. but i think the laughing wasnt luffy it was probably nika. and like i said. luffy being the mc. i dont think nikas will will take over luffys will. i think luffy will fully take control of its power

[proven lion]

That is why I think JoyBoy likely didn't get taken over

Because based off the logic Oda has written out for us the stronger ur haki the more will u have over things.

[rough storm]

that is the only reason i could think of why zunesha and emeth betrayed joyboy

[rough storm]

u do know blackbeards will will be comparable to luffys will right

having will doesnt mean u are good

[proven lion]

I think it was a lot like how white beard got betrayed by squard actually

[rough storm]

and just because u are good doesnt mean ur will will be stronger than the villain.

and i think nikas will was stronger than joyboy i mean nika was a god.

[proven lion]

Imu likely swayed people into fighting for him and they realized too late that they were fighting for the wrong cause.

[rough storm]

emeth and zunesha was shown to be super loyal to joyboy. emeth was even carrying joyboys knot haki

[olive token]

Ye

[proven lion]

Just how squard was tricked by akainu

[rough storm]

like why would you betray someone who asked you to hold his knot haki for future use?.

[cunning iron]

This is a very good point. I agree on the idea that Luffy is heavily influenced by his devil fruit, especially in Gear 5.

[rough storm]

i dont get how people didnt realize that.

luffy laughing while people dying is not luffy like

then we found out zoan awakening can actually take over its user body

[cunning iron]

I know, Oda made it clear though, he made Luffy have a new laugh only when he's in Gear 5. For me this is a sign that the fruit is really influencing its user

[proven lion]

He likely had no choice, and that scene that we saw was before the war, they were very likely tricked by imu.

[rough storm]

right. and we know g5 is the nika form. he doesnt laugh on his g4 or g3 or 2. only on 5. which coincidentaly was nikas true form

[proven lion]

I would agree

[cunning iron]

Exactly, definitely not a coincidence!

[proven lion]

But like I said I don't think JoyBoy lost control of the devil fruit

Because as we saw joyboy by far has the strongest will

[rough storm]

thats why i think joyboy lost control like why would zunesha and emeth betray him? just doesnt make sense

[proven lion]

I think they betrayed him for reasons that they could not control

[rough storm]

well maybe nikas will was stronger

[proven lion]

Doesn't make sense because if that were so then Luffy would have fully lost control the very first time he used it.

[cunning iron]

Maybe Emeth and Zunesha had like one thing to do, one very specific thing, and they failed so they feel responsible for Joyboy's defeat.
But you know, I'm pretty sure Joyboy knew he'd be defeated. Like I'm 100% sure of that.

[rough storm]

well luffy is the mc. and will be the strongest person in one piece in the future. for sure his will will be stronger than nika

[proven lion]

The ONLY other explanation I can think of is maybe the fruit needs a certain personality type to mesh perfectly with

Maybe joyboy was a serious person by nature and didn't mesh with the fruit

[rough storm]

imus reaction to joyboys haki kinda implied that joyboy was that guy lol.

[proven lion]

But that to me is a stretch

[cunning iron]

Lol yeah but we know Imu won because he's IMUmortal

[rough storm]

i mean brook is immortal too lol.

[cunning iron]

Yeah XD but thankfully Brook doesn't want to create a WG etc

[proven lion]

@cunning iron what do u think of my theory

[rough storm]

lol what i meant was just because ur immortal doesnt mean ur strong. im pretty sure no one could defeat joyboy.

[cunning iron]

I mean we saw on Egghead, Luffy could have won against Mars and Saturn at least, but the problem is that they kept regenerating

[rough storm]

i agree

[cunning iron]

I know!! I never said Imu was stronger necessarily, just that you can't kill him so basically he just has to wait lol I mean Joyboy ended up dying, maybe at an old age too

[proven lion]

Thanks, had a lot of thought out into it

[proven lion]

But yeah click on that hyper link and lmk what u think, it got buried under all this conversation

Has a pretty good explanation

[cunning iron]

Can't find it :/

[proven lion]

@cunning iron

Click that

[rough storm]

if saturn can be killed. for sure theres a wayto kill imu. and im sure imu being afraid of joyboy should be telling that joyboy can kill imu.

[cunning iron]

Good point, you may be right on this!

[cunning iron]

About Saturn, he was killed by Imu I assume, I mean in my headcanon, the Gorosei are bond to Imu by some kind of pact and from this moment their very life is in Imu's hand, he can terminate it if he wants and when he wants, and that explains why they always obey him.

[proven lion]

Right and I also feel as though giants really tie into all of it, I feel like the first Nika was definitely a giant based off the giant straw hat.

[rough storm]

vega punk saying that the devil fruits came from wishes then knowing that vega punk can create a devil fruit himself. kinda says that maybe the ancient kingdom was just super advance that they discovered how to create a devil fruit power using science

[cunning iron]

Interesting theory. The key is the moment when the devil fruits appeared.

[proven lion]

Exactly and it all happened in the 2nd world

[rough storm]

there was no ancient kingdom in the second world anymore

[proven lion]

The first world it was through a wish, the 2nd world they figured out how to make them themselves

[rough storm]

second world, the human killed the sun to become god. implies the celestial dragon which was teh 20 kings who fought against the ancient kingdom

[cunning iron]

Who says fruits says tree! There had to be a very special tree that bore the very first devil fruits. A kind of magical tree, where people could make contact with it, wish for something, and it becomes a reality as a fruit.

[proven lion]

The missing key is the power that made it possible and why Imu wanted Vegapunk to make the mother flame

Because the one we have now isn't the real thing

Its a poor imitation

[proven lion]

Exactly that was when the 20kings formed the world government

[proven lion]

It could have been the eve tree and that's why its protected at Marie Jois, Adam is the male version of the Eve tree and Adam cannot bare fruit.

[rough storm]

this is false. vegapunk never gave the motherflame to imu. it was york who stole a small sample of it and gave it to the five elders as a bargain for york to be a celestial dragon

[proven lion]

No he didn't but Vega punk was basically commissioned by imu to make it.

That's my point

But it's incomplete

[cunning iron]

And I don't think Vegapunk got told to create the Mother Flame either, he did it because he wanted so badly to recreate the ancient energy, he didn't think of the consequences like using it to power a deadly weapon etc

[proven lion]

The mother flame is vegapunks ultimate project

[rough storm]

bro no. vega punk created the motherflame as a reflica of what he found out about the technology of the ancient kingdom.

[proven lion]

Maybe but we know that Imu knew about it

[rough storm]

imu knew about it because of york

[cunning iron]

Vegapunk did a lot of things for the sake of science only, this includes the creation of the Mother Flame, I really don't think it was a specific order

[proven lion]

My point tho is that the mother flame is the key

The mother flame, the eve tree

And dreams

[olive token]

Why did imu want it so bad?

[proven lion]

Because it's the key to devil fruits and all the ancient mysteries

[cunning iron]

The Mother Flame? You saw what happened to Lulusia, you have the answer

[proven lion]

It's kind of not that important what is important is that it's the key and it's not complete

[rough storm]

imu didnt want it. he didnt even know avbout it until york told them

[rough storm]

the fact is imu didnt know about it until york told them.

[cunning iron]

Vegapunk was so dumb for creating the Mother Flame without realizing what it could lead to...I expected better from the most intelligent man on Earth 😂

[proven lion]

Well if Imu was around during the void century then he DEFINITELY knows about it, what he didn't probably know is that Vegapunk also knew.

[rough storm]

he knew about the ancient weapon and the mother flame but he didnt expect vega punk to create one. like bro the world government didnt want anyone to know about the ancient kingdom and its history. vegapunk found out because he went to ohara.

[proven lion]

I truly believe that the mother flame is the key to devil fruit powers and why devil fruits can't combine with water, it's because it's a flame.

[worldly nexus]

mother flame?

[proven lion]

Yes

[worldly nexus]

what dat

[proven lion]

Don't wanna spoil it if ur not caught up lol

[cunning iron]

Vegapunk is a scientist! He created the Mother Flame because he's a scientist, that's all!

[small estuary]

That makes sense

[cunning iron]

Personally I'm sorry but if someone looks at this channel, I assume they're caught up

[proven lion]

It has to it also explains why there is no new ones

Because the technology was lost with the void century

[small estuary]

Yeah

[proven lion]

Yeah lmao ur right

Why would u look at theories if ur not caught up

Unless u don't care about spoilers

[proven lion]

But what did he need it for is the question, I think the idea came from his research of devil fruits.

That's why Momos devil fruit is almost correct

It's cus Vega punk made it with the mother flame

But the problem is, it's not complete.

[cunning iron]

I think the main reason and trigger is Emeth. He tried to replicate Emeth, and also its source of energy. Then, I guess after learning about the ancient energy, it made him even more motivated to recreate it nowadays. He literally didn't think about bad people using it to power deadly weapons etc, he only followed his scientific/rational/neutral side

[proven lion]

Idk I still think it came from his devil fruit research and then he probably realized that it's the answer to everything not just devil fruits

It's how the ancient kingdom was so advanced

They had access to unlimited energy

[cunning iron]

Then we disagree on this 😅

[proven lion]

Idk the evidence is there where is his version of emeth

We do see his version of a devil fruit

That actually worked

[cunning iron]

His version of Emeth was the Vegaforce-01 lol

(Pretty lame compared to Emeth XD)

[proven lion]

Doesn't really explicitly state it's power source tho

I guess neither does devil fruits

[cunning iron]

When Vegapunk talked with Luffy, Chopper, and Jinbei, he explained to them that his dream was to create this infinite energy, we can see that he wasn't thinking about devil fruits but more about a source of energy that can have multiple uses

[proven lion]

But ultimately it doesn't really matter how he figured it out

The answer is the mother flame

For everything

All the things related to the ancient kingdom and it being advanced has to do with unlimited energy

[cunning iron]

Vegapunk explicitely says in one chapter that the only thing he couldn't replicate was Emeth's source of energy

The Mother Flame is his closest attempt

[proven lion]

Right the mother flame

But I also think the mother flame is the key to devil fruits

[cunning iron]

Well the ancient mother flame, or ancient energy, whatever name it had back then

[rough storm]

vegapunk clearly stated that he created the motherflame to create free energy around the world.

[proven lion]

It's the key to all that shit like I said

That's why devil fruits and water don't mix

[cunning iron]

About devil fruits, Vegapunk said the only ones he couldn't replicate were logias

[proven lion]

Well even the ones he did replicate he said weren't complete

[rough storm]

he only said that because he didnt like the color

[proven lion]

Doesn't state that anywhere

[rough storm]

momos fruit

[cunning iron]

Yes, Kaido's one for example. The color wasn't the exact same one, that was the only con. And it needed a lot of resources to create just one.
For paramecia, he uses his "green blood"

[proven lion]

He didn't say that was the only problem tho not from what I remember lol

[cunning iron]

He did. Did you skip that conversation between Vegapunk, Jinbei, Luffy and Chopper or what? XD

[proven lion]

The fruit is incomplete

[cunning iron]

Yes and he asked Luffy what color is Momo's dragon form

Then Jinbei remarked "so it was only for that? he's a perfectionist"

For the rest we can assume that it was the only problem, I mean from our perspective as readers.

[proven lion]

I don't buy it, because if that was the case the government would be all over him.

There must be something else

[cunning iron]

If you don't buy it, then you should read again lol I mean maybe he was honest when he said "it's incomplete" but for him it only meant 'the color doesn't match'

[rough storm]

did you not see the seraphims devil fruit power?

[rough storm]

the government was all overhiim lol thats why he created teh seraphim

[proven lion]

Idk man like I said, I really don't think it's that simple of an explanation the mother flame is the key and it's not complete.

It must have some other defects

That we as readers are not aware of yet.

[rough storm]

is not because vegapunk created a devil fruit or atleast made a clone that have a devil fruit 36 years ago before he created the mother flame. "stussy"

[proven lion]

We will have to see as time goes on but like I said I'm putting all my stocks on the mother flame being the source of power for devil fruits.

[rough storm]

its not it. because vegapunk only found out about the mother flame when he studied what the oharas people found out about the ancient kingdom

[cunning iron]

What????

Mother Flame being source of power for the devil fruits, seriously?

[proven lion]

Yes lol

It's the reason they exist

[rough storm]

lol bro no.

[cunning iron]

You mean the "ancient energy", right?

[rough storm]

stussy clone with a devil fruit was created 36 years ago. vegapunk went to ohara 22 years ago. the time doesnt match

[proven lion]

It is the one and the same vegapunks mother flame is an imitation of it

My point is, that is the source for the ancient kingdom being able to do all these incredible things

[cunning iron]

It's not exactly the same

[proven lion]

Sure its not the same way Momos fruit is not the same as kaidos

Or how vegapunks robot isnt like emeth

[cunning iron]

But energy doesn't do everything, even irl. You have electricity but if you don't have a phone, it's useless XD

[proven lion]

With endless energy comes endless possibilities for progress

That's the point

And that same energy is what makes all these crazy things the ancients had possible

[cunning iron]

So you're saying the original devil fruits were man-made through machines powered by the ancient energy?

[rough storm]

bro read what im saying. vegapunk or the mads created a clone 36 years ago with a devil fruit. before vegapunk found out about the ancient kingdom which he only discovered when he went to oharas

[proven lion]

YES

Lol

[cunning iron]

I had to word it correctly for you 😭 but I see better what you meant

Well it's an interesting idea, in my case I prefer the "magic" theory of a magical tree that made wishes come true

[proven lion]

The key is that energy mixed with the a wish

The power of that wish is the key, it is absolutely no coincidence why now in Elbaph we are getting dreams/nightmares coming into reality

We are getting a glimpse

It's a little bit of science and a little bit of magic

[cunning iron]

The current "Mother Flame" seems comparable to our real world nuclear power. But the original "ancient energy" seemed to be something else, maybe solar or from another type

[proven lion]

That was for the first fruit!!!

But the industrialization of them came from people figuring it out

The first fruit came from that "magic" but they figured it out in the 2nd world

[rough storm]

this guys is ignoring the fact that vega punk only found out about the motherflame 22 years ago when he studied what ohara knew about the ancient kingdom. stussy clone with a devil fruit was created 36 years ago. so the devil fruit couln't be related to the mother flame.

[proven lion]

Where does it say that lol

[cunning iron]

I know, but he's using the wording "Mother Flame" for both the current one and what I call the "ancient energy".
If I understood well, he's saying that the first devil fruits appeared on a magical tree (that it my idea as well) but then, they were industrialized through machinery that were powered with a special energy (he calls that "Mother flame" hence the confusion).

[proven lion]

Where does it say he started working on it after ohara

[proven lion]

Yes exacy

To make it easier I'll refer to the old mother flame as ancient energy

[cunning iron]

THANK YOU

Regarding that ancient energy, it's quite a huge mystery actually.

[proven lion]

Also I don't think it's a coincidence that they call the ancient power the first sin it also says that on the ancient Harley text, it's a direct parallel to the very first sin in the Bible.

The first sin being eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil

[cunning iron]

And a serpent is involved, again

[proven lion]

Yes

That's why it's called the first sin, the first devil fruit was the Nika fruit.

[cunning iron]

The "hellfire serpent" seems like a consequence of discovering that ancient energy, and I suppose this is what "sun" refers to in the Harley

[proven lion]

Yes exactly

It parallels the Bible as well as Ragnarok from Norse mythology

It's a mix of both

[proven lion]

Don't see any mention of the mother flame

Or ancient power source

[rough storm]

he cleaerly said he was trying to replicate the ancient kingdoms mother flame.

so meaning he learned about the mother flame after he read or studied what the ohara knew about treh ancient kingdom

[proven lion]

We don't know when the research began tho all we know is that's what he was trying to do for all we know it could have been before

[rough storm]

shouldbe easy to connect the dot bro

[proven lion]

If that was true then how did he figure out devil fruits

That is an ancient technology

[rough storm]

clearly its not about the motherflame

[proven lion]

It is though

It has to be

There really is no other answers

[rough storm]

bro mads created stussy that had a devil fruit 36 years ago. vega punk learned aboutthe ancient kingdom and the mother flame 22 years ago.

[proven lion]

It litteraly connects everything

[proven lion]

That's just not true

Because we know that as a kid he was trying to replicate the ancient kingdom

[rough storm]

just google it bro.

[proven lion]

I don't need to

Think about his home

[rough storm]

that clearly said vega punk only learned about the ancient kingdom after the oharas incident

not when he was a kid

[proven lion]

They explicitly said that a lot of the things he was doing was him trying to replicate the ancient kingdom, he left his home town pretty young.

[rough storm]

okay i think ur just trolling now.

[proven lion]

I'm not lmfao u just don't understand that Vegapunk was literally just back tracking trying to replicate what the ancients did.

They called all his inventions advanced but in reality it was just him recreating ancient technology

[lunar acorn]

how can you launch a real armada and bombard an entire island, people, infrastructure, land itself, the ancient tree, but still not be able to deal any damage to a lake and thousands of books in it?
how can the books survive after being thrown into a lake?!
how can a number of marines notice the books in said lake yet no action was taken to determine what they are and what needs to be done about them?

[proven lion]

Exactly why I think Vegapunk knew about it already

Lmao

Ohara had nothing to do with Vegapunk wanting to learn more about the ancient kingdom, that is obviously going to be an interest to him if his goal is to acquire knowledge, there is no better source then the ancients.

He was researching it as a kid

Testament to that is his home island

[pure raven]

Only post-Ohara

[proven lion]

Where does it state that

[pure raven]

Nothing showcases or implies he had the info available to him pre-Ohara

when he legit denied CLover for wanting anything to do with the AK

[proven lion]

His home island is litteraly testament to that

[pure raven]

testament to what?

[proven lion]

Him knowing about the ancient kingdom dude

His research even as a kid was hundreds of years ahead of the entire world (in reality it was just him back tracking to ancient times)

Him trying to replicate ancient tech

[pure raven]

Provide the manga panels of him having information ancient kingdom technology when he was in his hometown

Yes the tech he was tryna replicate from the AK

came after Ohara

and when he ran into Emeth on EH

[proven lion]

Exactly so where do u think he got it from? He just knew how to be so much more advanced then anyone?

He left his home town at a pretty young age

[pure raven]

He studied already existing technology and improved on it.

Yea he's an insane genius

[proven lion]

So then what is that?

[pure raven]

Franky was the same way

lol

[proven lion]

Already existing technology

U said it not me

It's ancient kingdom dude

[pure raven]

Technology created after the Ancient Kingdom

lol

[proven lion]

No lmao

[pure raven]

You think no technology was created after the AK?

There were no scientific development?

[proven lion]

Because if that was the case then more people then Vegapunk would be able to do it

[pure raven]

Only development happened over 800 years is related to AK?

what?

[proven lion]

Yes I do

[pure raven]

that's illogical

[proven lion]

The world went into a dark age after the void century

[pure raven]

What AK tech did Franky learn from

Tell me

[proven lion]

Vegapunks home country

[pure raven]

He was a cyborg before timeskip

[proven lion]

What is so hard to get

Yes but Franky even said "some of this stuff is at least 500 years too advanced for what we have" what is that implying dude

[pure raven]

He was enhancing on Tom's designs in his own ways consistently for the ships as well with no AK information

[proven lion]

Just think

[pure raven]

That VP built different lmao

Nothing states VP didn't go back to hometown after leaving it

[proven lion]

No bro it's because Vegapunk researched the ancients

[pure raven]

Yes once he got hand on ancient Kingdom information that CLover collected and that EH through studying Emeth

If a kid franky is making technological advancements on his own, you think VP can't without just remaking AK tech at a young age?

lol

[rough storm]

dude you need to read one piece again. imu didnt want no one researching or knowing about the ancient kingdom and the void century. when imu found out vegapunk studied it he wanted him dead right away.

[cunning iron]

Tech from the Ancient Kingdom was completely done, saying Vegapunk build upon it isn't accurate, he made his own research and discoveries and then he reached a certain technological level that seems close to what the Ancient Kingdom had but yet it's not on par with it

[proven lion]

My point is that Vegapunk knew about the ancient kingdom from a young age otherwise his stuff wouldn't be 500 years ahead

Doesn't make any sense for it to not be that way

[rough storm]

lol bro he didnt. no one did until ohara

[pure raven]

He's a 1 of 1 genius to exist in OP world

[proven lion]

U guys are clearly clueless dude

[rough storm]

go read vegapunks one piece wiki

[proven lion]

I don't really need to state what is so obvious

[cunning iron]

But Vegapunk is a genius, he's smarter than any other person in the OP world, that's what made this possible, not that he knew about the Ancient Kingdom since he was a kid.

[final bloom]

just because ppl are against u doesnt mean u know everything sherlock lol

[pure raven]

People from the past can make technology insanely advance without a pre-existing civilization. But the greatest genius of we know of by far in the manga, can't reach even close to it on his own.

When Franky became a solid cyborg without AK info on his own

[proven lion]

It just doesn't make sense for it to not be that way dude where would he draw from? He just knew? Sounds like bullshit to me I think he was way ahead of everyone because he drew from an ancient source and it's that much more obvious on egghead

[cunning iron]

That's why he's a genius. He has ideas normal people don't have.

[pure raven]

Same way the AK built up to the point where they had insane tech. The world has continued to develop still over the 800 years. People didn't just stop being engineers and scientists.

Just because you remove the AK technology, doesn't mean society all of a sudden becomes stupid

[proven lion]

But they had to backtrack dude there is not a single thing more advanced in modern day then ancient times

[pure raven]

Yes WE ALL AGREE that VP has built on ancient kingdom info. What we are disagreeing with is when he started doing it.

We are saying it's when he studied the books from Ohara that contained AK Tech and medical info + etc.

And then Emeth itself

[proven lion]

What books tho lmfao they were burnt and thrown into the water dude

[rough storm]

the book wassaved lmao

[proven lion]

Where does it say that

[cunning iron]

Some of you guys are downplaying Vegapunk as a genius lol

[pure raven]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/c/c0/Giants_Salvage_Books_from_Ohara.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/985?cb=20240317020610

When Dragon goes to Ohara

Giants were pulling out Books

[proven lion]

Canon? Show me a panel

[rough storm]

no one was downplaying vegapunk.

[pure raven]

Which were then taken to Elbaf's library

[pure raven]

I already said he's 1of1 genius of OP history as far as we know

[rough storm]

read the latest chapter about saul talking about ohara

[pure raven]

https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/one-piece-giants-ohara-books-vegapunk.jpg

[cunning iron]

Vegapunk didn't wait for Ohara's books to clone people for example

[rough storm]

he didnt need the ancient tech for that

[cunning iron]

Still no one had done cloning in 800 years...

[pure raven]

Me, you and Shanks D. man are on the same page when it comes to VP

[cunning iron]

As I thought 👍

[rough storm]

how do you know lol. what makes you think vega punk was the first one to do it.

i mean it wasnt even vegapunk alone it was the whole mads that created the first clone

[pure raven]

https://preview.redd.it/for-anyone-stating-that-man-is-in-elbaf-v0-jib6ok22pfva1.png?width=1045&format=png&auto=webp&s=716186a56fbfb84b319f038c8ddfcd605cfc07ac

[proven lion]

I know Vega punk is a genius dude it's obvious but I think he knew about the ancient kingdom far before ohara, he probably learned more from it of course.

[pure raven]

https://www.opfanpage.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/uihh54.png

[proven lion]

But the man definitely knew

[cunning iron]

True, you got a point, but we can't say cloning was a common thing though, otherwise Mads wouldn't have focused on researching until they found out about the "lineage factor", I mean if the "lineage factor" was already common knowledge, why was it a discovery for them?

[rough storm]

who says cloning was a common thing? what are you trying to argue here?. it was discovered by them because they researcched about it for years.

[cunning iron]

I know, but you were saying "what makes you believe there was no cloning in 800 years"

[rough storm]

because we clearly dont know lol

[cunning iron]

Okay but we can assume there wasn't?

[rough storm]

no. because we found out saturn was also doing the same thing.

[cunning iron]

Saturn didn't clone people, he created diseases

[rough storm]

not saying cloning but saturn was also experimenting similar to cloning. like ginny to bonney

[cunning iron]

No no don't play on words "similar to cloning", cloning is cloning, you're trying to pretend that it's the same thing when it's not exactly the same

[rough storm]

like i said we dont know. but we do know that saturn is a scientist and was experimenting of transferring devilfruit or giving the same devil fruit tomultiple people

saying that only vega punk and the mads have the potential of learning how to create clone is just dumb

[cunning iron]

Vegapunk is a genius in the OP world though, if it was so easy, I bet everything he did would have been done by others in 800 years. In the OP world, Vegapunk is recognized as a genius who contributed to make the world better thanks to his discoveries. Pretending like anybody could have had the same level of intelligence and achieve all that he and the others did is just dumb

[rough storm]

sanjis dad lmao. sanji is obviously an experiment too an android. probably way more advance than the seraphim.

yes there are people out there who are as smart as vega punk

like its dumb thinking that there wasnt anyone born before vegapunk who was as smart as him.

[cunning iron]

Like irl I guess, it's dumb to think there wasn't anyone born before Einstein who was as smart as him?

[rough storm]

lol yeah dude for sure there was a lot of people who was way smarter than eisntein.

[cunning iron]

As per your reasoning lol

[rough storm]

so ur saying that no one before eisntein was smart as him?

you really think einstien was the smartest man

[cunning iron]

Just an example since Vegapunk's design is based off him

[rough storm]

then vegapunk was obviously not the smartest man

if you think vegapunk was base of einstein then yeah theres a lot of people before einster who was way smarter than him

da vinci for starter

[cunning iron]

What a shame that they didn't make the discoveries he made before he was ever born

[rough storm]

lol bro how do you know ? ive been saying we dont know but saying that no one was as smart as vegapunk or thought of creating clone beforevega punk is just dumb.

[cunning iron]

Maybe they thought but between just thinking and carrying it out, there's a world

[rough storm]

there was actually one who was so advance but had to be destroyed because they were just so advance that even vegapunk said he can't compare to those people from the past.

[cunning iron]

We're talking about the period of 800 years after the "Void Century"

[rough storm]

im just giving that as an example that i know that there are people who can be way more smarter than vega punk. but the thing is. we dont know anything else after that. we dont know where saturn came from or what the people from 700 years ago did.

or 600 years ago or 500 years ago. we dont know.

[cunning iron]

What annoys me in your argumentation is that you're implying that during those 800 years, there's a possibility someone as smart as Vegapunk existed. But yet I'd ask, where are the achievements? Why are people from the current time grateful to Vegapunk for what he brought to the world if it was done before him? But anyway, you'll just find a way to justify it so I guess I'll stop discussing with you on this

[proven lion]

There hasn't been

And yeah he's good at going in circles trying to prove a fruitless point

[cunning iron]

And I thought I was on the same side as him at the start of the debate XD but we became opposed 😭

[rough storm]

so you are that type of person who only believes something if he sees it.

[proven lion]

No there has to be evidence of some kind

[cunning iron]

I'm the type of person who read that Vegapunk is a "genius, 500 years ahead of his time".

[proven lion]

There isn't anything anyone did during those 800 years that can compare to Vegapunks work that we know of

If there is point me to the evidence

[rough storm]

no we did agreed that vegapunk only found out about the ak after ohara. but i didnt agree with you about vega punk being the only person in 800 years that could think of researching how to clone

[proven lion]

Ur talking about what if tho

With absolutely no evidence point to ur point

I'm open to the idea but where is the evidence

[rough storm]

is not a what if but a fact. is like saying we can build tall buildings now i bet no one could do it back in the past but there is clearly evidence that there was some type of advance technology from the past due to them building something like the pyramid and such.

[proven lion]

As far as what one piece has us believe Vegapunk is the most advanced person since the void

[proven lion]

During the void and before it yeah

But not after

If that was the case then why didn't that person figure everything out and leave information about it for someone else

Someone like that would serve no purpose to the story lmao someone who supposedly could do it but just "didn't leave anything behind" sounds awfully stupid to me.

[rough storm]

sounds like the ancient kingdom to me.

[cunning iron]

The fact that Vegapunk is described as someone 500 years ahead of his contemporaries in terms of science should imply that the state of science in the OP world (after the void) was very low or basic

[proven lion]

But the ancient kingdom did leave stuff behind

[rough storm]

that is just false because judge is clearly on par with him

[proven lion]

What the fuck are the poneglyphs then

[rough storm]

ban by the world government?

[proven lion]

They are from the ancient kingdom they were left behind by the ancient kingdom dude

[cunning iron]

Okay okay so for you Judge = Caesar = Vegapunk ? Only because the 3 were in Mads and both Caesar and Judge were jealous of Vegapunk and fought to be recognized as number 2???

[rough storm]

dude like i said earlier. we dont know because we dont know what happen 100 years ago 200 300 and so on.

[proven lion]

The ancient kingdom didn't leave "nothing behind" lol they definitely left clues scattered across the world

[proven lion]

We do tho

[proven lion]

Noland existed 400 years ago

[rough storm]

bro judge created one of the most powerful suits and cyborg. sanji will probably become the perfect being created by judge implied by oda. because of his germa genes

[proven lion]

Would u describe Nolands time as super advanced?

Like lol

[rough storm]

yeah and 400 years ago there was a kingdom known as emerald city. people desnt even know about weatheria.

[proven lion]

What lmfao

What are u even talking about

Okay emerald City awesome but that doesn't imply it was advanced, also we already know that weatheria uses ancient technology

It litteraly states it

The tone dial and rope is all ancient

Very likely void century stuff

[rough storm]

The Emerald City is a legendary metropolis mentioned by Bellamy during his speech about dreams, alongside the City of Gold and the One Piece..

[cunning iron]

https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Emerald_City

[proven lion]

Doesn't say anything about metropolis

[rough storm]

im just saying stuff i know that didnt happen in void century.

[proven lion]

Okay so it does either way wanna hear the irl counter part? Wizard of Oz green tinted glasses makes the city emerald

[proven lion]

We don't know if it did or didn't tho

All we know is that they exist

We aren't given time frames for anything

[rough storm]

bro no one knew about the ancient kingdom except for imu and maybe the gorosie and ohara. how would belamy know?

the emerald city belamy mention kinda sounds like a lot ofpeople knew about it

[proven lion]

He didn't he just said one piece

[rough storm]

bro lol

he did mentioned it

[proven lion]

Sure the same way a lot of people know about sun god Nika

Who was before the void

[rough storm]

they knew about a person not a kingdom with technology lol

[proven lion]

He mentioned the ancient kingdom?

Where

[rough storm]

were talking about if there was people or a place that also have technology right

[rough storm]

he mention emerald city

lol

[proven lion]

That's not the ancient kingdom

[cunning iron]

Hm you don't know

[rough storm]

i know is not

but emerald city from the wizard of oz was a kingdom with a lot of advance technology too

i gave u guys example and now u dismiss it lol

[proven lion]

No it was a normal kingdom that was green because people had green tinted glasses on

[rough storm]

did you watch the live action wizard of oz. the new one?

[proven lion]

No but I read the original book

[rough storm]

anyways saying that in 800 years no one born was as smart as vegapunk is like i said "dumb"

[proven lion]

It isn't because ur just making assumptions with no basis

Ur guessing that the emerald kingdom was after the void

That's a guess

[rough storm]

ur also making assumptions with no basis.

[rough storm]

its after the void because. no one knew about ak only ohara and imu. so why would a regular human knew about it?

[proven lion]

About what the Emerald City?

U litteraly answered ur own question earlier

Bellamy knew about it

[rough storm]

yeah belamy knowing about emerald city means that emerald city is not the ancient kingdom lol

[proven lion]

It implies that it was before the void century

The void century is just 100 years

From 800 to 900 years ago

Hence void century

We know about things before it

If we didn't then we wouldn't for example know that alabasta history goes back atleast 4000 years

[rough storm]

yeah thats alabasta. no one cares about it. even imu. so why erase that history. but we do know that imu erased the ancient kingdom history. thats 2 different thing brother

[proven lion]

It's not bro ur not even reading what I said lmfao 100 year void

It is only 100 years of lost history

Anything before and anything after we know about

[rough storm]

lol. bro idk if ur just dumb. so ur saying imu didnt erased the ancient kingdom history?

[proven lion]

Funny of u to think no one cares about alabasta when possibly the first D members came from there

[rough storm]

bexcause we are talking about a history that was erased.

[proven lion]

No bro u just have the reading comprehension of a possum

[rough storm]

haha

alabastas history wasnt erased while the ancient kingdom did so yes people will still know about alabastas history but not ancient kingdom. like can you not understand that?

[proven lion]

100 year void bro are u with me? Okay 100 year void was from 800 to 900 years ago anything after we know about, anything before we know about..

What is difficult to understand there

Please explain

[rough storm]

dude stop talking about 100 years. were talking about the ancient kingdom. was its history erased or not?

answer that

[proven lion]

Yes but that involves the 100 year void artard

[rough storm]

okay so it was erased. meaning no regular human would know about it right?

[proven lion]

Right lmao

[rough storm]

okay. then belamy mentioning about the emerald city can't be the ancient kingdom right ?

[proven lion]

I never fucking said it was

LOL like I said u have the reading comprehension of a baby squirrel dude

[rough storm]

bro go back and read what yo usaid when i mention about emerald city

u keep saying it was from before the void

[proven lion]

Yes because it could have been

Alabasta was???

Like hello

[rough storm]

then why would he implied that the emerald city and the gold city was in the same era

[proven lion]

He never implied that

When did he imply that

Show me

Please show me

[rough storm]

because he said the gold city which was the one nolan saw 400 years ago

so in my head canon. emerald city was also from the same era

400 years ago

[proven lion]

Yeah but clearly it was much older

[rough storm]

lmao is that ur head canon too

[proven lion]

It wasn't like that fucking city appeared there we know that the ancient Kingdom left a poneglyph there

[rough storm]

so all of a sudden. everyone know about everything before the void?

[proven lion]

It's not even head canon

[rough storm]

were talking about the emerald city

[proven lion]

@rough storm how did the poneglyph get there dumb ass

[rough storm]

bro forthe last couple minutes i have been talking about emerald city

there was no poneglyph there dumb ass lmao

[proven lion]

It implies that the city of gold is ATLEAST as old or older than the void century

Because the ancient kingdom left them a poneglyph

[proven lion]

Oh yeah?

Did u forget that little part

[rough storm]

okay i can agree with that. but we are talking about the emerald city bro

it exist.

[proven lion]

Yes but it could be as old or older than the void century dude

What is so hard to believe about that

[rough storm]

bro you are saying it like its a fact. im saying this as an example that maybe emerald city was from 400 or 500 years ago.

you kept spouting some headcanon bullshit as a fact when its not.

[proven lion]

We don't know that tho it's MUCH more likely for it to be older bro

[proven lion]

What head canon tho

If anything ur using head canon saying Noland discovered that island and it didn't have prior history

[rough storm]

emerald city is older from the void century. vegapunk knew the ancient kingdom since he was a kid etc.

[rough storm]

bro. i only use gold city because it was included to what belammy said about his dream. are you really this stupid?

the whole time i was talking about emerald city

[proven lion]

U litteraly said Bellamy said it was the same era

[rough storm]

and you keep bringing up dumb ass argument that you think its fact

[proven lion]

Lmfaoo

[proven lion]

Lmao

[rough storm]

i said. it "kinda" imply

[proven lion]

Okay

Lmao

This is fruitless bro I'm not going to keep going ur brain is smooth

[rough storm]

yeah cause you keep spouting bs. l

[cunning iron]

Now that I stopped debating, I must admit it's fun to watch you argue 🤣 I guess that's why no one else enters the debate lol

[proven lion]

Literal smooth brain

[rough storm]

i used belammys dream as an example that maybe there was a kingdom that have advance technology too to justify my argument that there was probably someone who was as smart as vega punk.

[proven lion]

Yeah nah we don't know anything about it

It's just head canon

All the stuff ur saying is what if

[rough storm]

its also ur head canon that no one was as smart as vega punk

[proven lion]

It's not it's implied

He is 500 years ahead

Says it in the story

But okay

[rough storm]

yeah forgetting about judge right.

[proven lion]

What Oda said is wrong because shanks d man marked by flame said so

[proven lion]

Ur implying judge is beyond Vegapunk?

[rough storm]

yeah you saying vegapunk knew about the ancient kingdom since he was young was also fact right lmao

[rough storm]

lol. i said on par.

[proven lion]

It's kind of implied dude I mean if he is 500 years ahead and the ancient kingdom is even further advanced he's obviously getting inspiration from them

It's far less of a reach to think that then to think the Emerald City was formed 400 years ago lmfaoooo

[rough storm]

because vegapunks invention or his goal was to create a free energy world for everyone. while judge was focus on creating the perfect human

[proven lion]

Why was that his goal

What do we now know about the ancient kingdom dude..

They had that

[cunning iron]

soldier*

[proven lion]

They had the power hes looking for

[rough storm]

human can be a soldier.

they have two different experties but that doesnt mean they are not on par when it comes to intellect

[proven lion]

Nah it's implied that Vegapunk is the smartest man in the world end of

Not going to even entertain that judge is on par with Vegapunk

[rough storm]

whitebeard was also imply to be the strongest being not roger.

[proven lion]

Because it's not true

[proven lion]

After Roger died yeah.. remember what don chinjao said? He said basically not exact words but "the man who can come out the conqueror among conquerors will become the pirate king" what does that tell u

Roger was the conqueror among conquerors

[rough storm]

kaido was also imply to be the strongest and not shank

[cunning iron]

Strongest "creature"

[rough storm]

he was also imply to never bedefeated 1v1.

[proven lion]

Yeah idk I feel like I'm talking to an AI fr

Literal bot

[rough storm]

yeah. i mean talking to someone who argues that vegapunk knew about the ancient kingdom since he was a kid lol like talking to a kid

[proven lion]

Lmfao

[cunning iron]

A one on one? Always bet on Kaido ✅

[rough storm]

luffy 1v1 him

[cunning iron]

But RoofPiece was a ten vs one lol

Ten or more xD

[rough storm]

yeah like bigmom and jack and the beast pirates wasnt there lol

was people watching roofpiece blindfolded

[cunning iron]

Jack got pre-defeated by Inu and Neko, got subbed by Kaido so that he can be healed, Big Mom got ejected from the roof. So if we're counting, Kaido faced the Akazaya alone, Yamato alone, Zoro + Law + Luffy alone, and Luffy alone

[rough storm]

you forgot luffy fought hundreds or more going to the roof right

[cunning iron]

Sanji and Jinbe helped him

[rough storm]

lol. yeah luffy didnt do nothing and just went straight toe the roof lol

[cunning iron]

Almost yeah, you consider Briscola as a serious opponent for Luffy now? lol

[rough storm]

ur considering kinemon as kaidos opponent now ?>

[cunning iron]

I guess there's really no point discussing with you, you're cool but debating with you always leads to disagreements pheww I better stop

[rough storm]

bro u saying it was 1v10. when clearly it wasnt

kaido fought luffy 1v1.

and lost

[cunning iron]

Kaido faced more people alone, I mean it's the truth, he faced Yamato alone, the Akazaya alone etc, and then Luffy , it's the truth

[rough storm]

lol u really can't admit that luffy also fought people goingto the roof too

nothing can damage kaido except conquerors coated attack.

zoros ultimate only scratch kaido. didnt even faze him same with the scabbard

[gentle halo]

Im sorry but most of them did NOTHING to kaido.

[dreamy sinew]

i think if luffy and kaido fought 1v1 rn kaido would win just because kaido is more durable than luffy

[hexed obsidian]

He didn’t lose he just gave up fighting that day

[pure raven]

Kaido has won multiple times

[late elm]

!theories

[lone hedge]

Please refrain from using manga-theories for joke theories, casual chit-chat, power scaling, bounty predictions or low-effort memes. This channel is for serious discussion- please read the channel description. Posts here must be in paragraph form, preferably with evidence, not just a one line open question.

[magic flicker]

i feel like like imu goes into her final form using the mother flame

otherwise base is weaker

way weaker

[rough storm]

i think nika was a bad guy too. i think joyboy was taken over by nikas will and that what made zunesha and emeth to betray him. i think the laughing g5 luffy was probablys nikas influence. i just dont see luffy laughing knowing that people around him are dying. imagine he had g5 when ace died. would he really laugh?.

[dreamy sinew]

i dont think luffy can go to gear 5 in that type of situation

if he has no hope he cant? something like that?

[mighty moon]

thats not how g5 works he can go into it whenever he wants

[silver quail]

Oda stated already that Luffy would win over kaido with awakening 1v1 while both full health I think

[cunning iron]

The fact they did nothing doesn't change the fact that they all tried to face him. Let's continue in #manga-serious

[tawny osprey]

I don’t think oda states powerscaling stuff g and nah he prolly would lose kaido was hit with so much more and luffy still barely won with g5

[fiery pelican]

I don’t think Nika is a bad guy. But I do think absolute freedom can also mean freedom from attachments which is dangerous territory for somebody like luffy.

[tawny osprey]

Law hit all his internal organs with gamma radiation and pierced kaido zoro reopened an old wound and made it bigger considering that’s happened once in kaido life that’s a big deal

[late elm]

this channel has devolved so much

[steady prism]

@tawny osprey @cunning iron this channel isn’t the place to relitigate fights. Please use #manga to discuss powerscaling topics like that.

[lone hedge]

Please refrain from using manga-theories for joke theories, casual chit-chat, power scaling, bounty predictions or low-effort memes. This channel is for serious discussion- please read the channel description. Posts here must be in paragraph form, preferably with evidence, not just a one line open question.

[woeful summit]

Here's my theory: I believe Imu isn't just a ruler of the present regime... he's actually the last survivor of the ancient kingdom’s royal bloodline, having betrayed his own people to create the world government
We know the ancient kingdom had advanced technology and beliefs that threatened the other kingdoms of the time, but then... why did they lose? The answer: betrayal from within
Imu’s name can be read as "Umi" backward, meaning sea in japanese. This could hint that Imu originated from the ocean linked ancient kingdom, not the celestial dragons
We know Imu has authority over the world government, however unlike the celestial dragons, he stays in the shadows which further proves my point
The most logical explanation is that Imu was once part of the ancient kingdom’s ruling family but then sided with the enemy
His betrayal could explain why the world goverment's highest authority isn't a descendant of the 20 kingdoms but rather a seperate figure. It would also explain why Imu seems obsessed with certain people bearing the "D" name, perhaps because they are descendants of those he betrayed
The question you may be asking: if the ancient kingdom had superior technology, why did Imu turn against them?
Imu probably may have desired power so he decided to join forces with the enemy instead of sharing rule, or perhaps the ancient kingdom followed a ideology he opposed, or maybe because he thought the ancient kingdom was doomed, so he might have switched sides to ensure his own existence
The world government didn’t just defeat the ancient kingdom... they erased its history. If Imu was once part of that civilization, he would know exactly how dangerous it was and how to ensure it never returned
We also know the ancient weapons are tied to the void century and Imu seems to be commanding Uranus. Uranus is the greek god of the sky, so its the most likely candidate for this weapon

Imu probably stole Uranus which could explain why the ancient kingdom fell despite its advanced technology

[wise stump]

Brother it's already stated as a probability that Imu is former king of nerona kingdom by Ivankov

[woeful summit]

We know Ivankov's statement implies that Imu ruled Nerona, but that doesn't mean he was born there

It just means he held that title during the void century

Assuming the ancient kingdom had a ruling family with the D. name, it could explain why he took the title of nerona’s king to mask his origins

Plus, it'd be way less interesting if Imu was always a Nerona by blood

[cunning iron]

Very interesting theory! Mine is more or less similar, except that I don't think Imu joined the opponents but that he was the main opponent. Betrayal is always a recurring idea in Oda's work, so it's very likely that the downfall of the Ancient Kingdom implied some kind of betrayal imo.
I agree on the fact that he most definitely wanted power. But I don't see Imu like someone who really belonged to the Ancient Kingdom royal family, more like a kind of Orochi guy who was either close to the power or who just interacted with the Ancient Kingdom as a ruler of his own kingdom.
The idea that he stole Uranus is very good, I agree on this. He probably wanted to take everything from the Ancient Kingdom, all their might, trying to replace them..I mean I can definitely see Imu as the kind of guy who thinks "those nice people are dumb, I'm gonna take power from them and rule that world".

[woeful summit]

Pretty solid take, especially regarding the theme of betrayal, however my opinions differ slightly from yours. First, Imu still needs a connection to the ancient kingdom. If he was just another king, why does he seem to fear the D. name so much? and since the D. clan opposes Imu it probably suggests a deeper connection between them. Second, if Imu was just a regular king, why would the 5 elders bow to him and not to a group of rulers? This means Imu was always above the 20 kings, and he probably led them or manipulated them from the start
We can see this from a completely different angle if we assume that Imu was a ruler from another kingdom who was once allied with the ancient kingdom but turned against them. So intead of him being a traitor of his own bloodline, he could've been an ally who decided he deserved power
In this scenario, Imu wasn’t born into the ancient kingdom’s royal family but was close enough to steal their power, his betrayal involved stealing uranus and using it to shift the war in his favor, and he now seeks to eliminate the D. name because it represents the beliefs and people he once feared and destroyed

The biggest missing piece is whether Imu was ever tied to the ancient kingdom directly or he just wanted to erase it for his own gain and if Imu wasn’t originally part of the ancient kingdom, then his hatred for the D. clan needs more explanation

[cunning iron]

I really think he wasn't directly part of the D clan, for example he didn't know Lily was a D, and I also mean that he wasn't privy to the "secrets" that make the D clan a real "clan".
I'm starting to believe that if there was a traitor in the Ancient Kingdom, it wasn't Imu but probably someone else who gave him some crucial info, a kind of Kanjuro.
Regarding the reason why Imu hates the D clan so much is simple, they were his enemies and he probably swore to destroy them. I see Imu as the main antagonist, I bet he started it all, he probably came up with the alliance idea, promising the other 19 kings a very special status if they win etc, I mean he surely needed their help in terms of resources or something in order to win.
We can only guess and theorize at the moment, but maybe he had personal reasons to hate on Joyboy. Maybe Joyboy freed some people in his country and Imu resented him for that, I don't know. Remember how Doffy was mad at Usopp at Dressrosa because he defeated Sugar and it ruined all that he built with her help. Maybe Joyboy did something similar and Imu swore vengeance and total destruction. I'm only guessing.

Oh I think I forgot to reply about why the Gorosei bow before Imu. Well, we saw what happened to Saturn, Imu can probably terminate any of the Gorosei's life whenever he wants. I support the "pact with the devil" theory. Like, if they have eternal life without aging, that's only because they consented to a pact with Imu, their life isn't theirs anymore. Okay they can regenerate infinitely, they can't be killed, but if Imu wants it, he kills them so they have to obey him.

[woeful summit]

Well that raises a few questions: why would Imu not know about Lily’s D. name? If he was the one planning the war, he should have been aware of who his biggest threats were... unless the D. name wasn’t commonly used during the war and only became a secret symbol after the fall of the ancient kingdom
The more important question is: did Imu need a personal grudge against Joy boy? While it makes sense Imu held a grudge against Joy boy, his hatred for the D. Clan seems bigger than a simple rivalry
If Joy boy’s actions alone sparked this life long hatred, why would Imu feel the need to erase an entire legacy rather than just Joy boy himself?

[cunning iron]

Imu is basically a mad man (or woman? Let's assume he's a man), so I can definitely see him do things the extreme way. He nuked Lulusia on a whim so there's nothing to be surprised about his craziness.
I just want to point out one thing : when Emeth release Joyboy's haki at Egghead and when Imu felt it (because it's his powers acting through the Gorosei in my opinion), he didn't say "Nika" but "Joyboy".
Regarding Lily, she managed to hide her affiliation with the D and it really saved the day and the future it seems. Why didn't Imu notice? Maybe she was particularly good at what she does, or maybe Imu was so in love with her that he didn't notice that she was betraying him, I don't know.

[chrome badger]

Imu is a boy in a womans body by the op op fruit

[magic flicker]

np

[vagrant grove]

Imagine if kizaru leaves the marine and went solo on the final war smoking everyone everywhere, just like what crocodile did on marineford.

[chrome badger]

Kizaru’s too lazy to do that.

[normal quail]

regarding the "D." and such, i think u may enjoy these thought-provoking theories of mine 🙂

#manga-theories message

#manga-theories message

[chrome badger]

Who do you think Luffy meets first: Hibari or Bogard?

[woeful summit]

The only weak spot in your theory is that you assume the full moon people had innate abilities beyond their advanced technology, which isn't really backed up by any existing evidence (from what I've read at least), unless you have an explanation for why only some people retained those traits. But overall good theory 👍

[storm swift]

https://tenor.com/view/terry-bogard-terry-kof-kyo-kyo-kusanagi-gif-20494526

Or don’t work that’s also cool

[normal quail]

i did some digging and realized that what i was referring to is the "automata" creatures, which are completely separate from the space pirates. i still think choppers devil fruit is something relating to the automata, or even could be the "human human fruit, model: automata." the original automata were created very long ago so whenever the desire for that power was wished for and thereafter manifested by the half-moon people (D clan ancestors), the automata may have had more than just the one "blueprint" that we see. what i mean is that the current appearance of the automata could be the only surviving, and most commonly used, blueprint of automata from way long ago. this would also explain how tsukimi "coincidentally" created automata that perfectly resemble the ancient ones (albeit wingless and slightly larger), because if this blueprint still existed or was passed down somehow then it explains how he somehow knew what the automata were supposed to look like. this also implies pre-existence of more complex automata blueprints which could explain choppers many forms, and also how choppers fruit being the automata fruit would permit many different forms compared to most zoan devil fruits. sadly there is really no evidence of other automata blueprints unless we assume the space pirates are either automata themselves or were used as inspiration for other complex automata designs.

[normal quail]

in fact this leads me to another major theory/connection, which is that emet is an automata. this would really explain a lot imo but ALSO if we look at how enel "revived" the automata by zapping/electrocuting them, i think this is MAJOR FORESHADOWING to luffy "reviving" emet via his gear 5. this means that emet has a programmed response to something with luffys fruit, and this leads me to think that JOYBOY HIMSELF created emet after lengthy studying of many automata blueprints. this also makes sense cause way back then when joyboy existed the complex automata blueprints may not have been destroyed yet, and in fact it could have been joyboy who destroyed the blueprints in order to prevent anyone (especially imu and their allies) from learning and being able to create this technology/power. it could also be that pluton is an automata hence why its considered "asleep," although is not like other automata in the fact that it is not humanoid (could still be alive like all other automata are shown to be, just not humanoid like the others and instead a warship). alongside this i believe that joyboy had to also study the pluton blueprints to help create emet. pluton and its blueprints also existed before joyboy and was not something made by joyboy, unlike emet. this would explain why it seems pluton can "get into the wrong hands" and be used for evil, because if joyboy was the one that created pluton he likely would have programmed a similar response to the nika powers as he did in emet. even though he was able to create emet and study pluton blueprints (to a degree), he actually would not have been able to create pluton himself because it requires an excellent shipwright and hence why joyboy could only use plutons blueprints for a little studying alongside the space automata blueprints in order to be able to create emet.

[normal quail]

anyways i still really like the idea of choppers fruit being the "automata" zoan fruit, especially because, by definition, automata (plural for automaton) are self-operating machines with predetermined instructions and responses programmed for different circumstances. this means choppers many forms are "responses" that he "programmed." in other words this devil fruit turns the user into a humanoid automata ("human" fruit, model: "automata" (human automata)). since chopper was originally a reindeer and not humanoid, this turned him into a humanoid version of himself but resembling the automata of the moon. this is because the ones wishing for this power to become automata actually saw automata as being the creatures created on the moon that were designated as automata. the reason it manifested as a human model zoan is because the wish was to become a "human automata" (as i said previously with "human" fruit, model: "automata"). so then, why when a human eats this fruit their form doesnt change? this is because they are already humanoid and the fruit doesnt need to follow a specific idea of what an automata looks like, but then where does the automata part come in? well, i believe the form chopper takes after eating the fruit has nothing to do with the fruits intended abilities but is rather a prerequisite to become a humanoid automata. the power of the fruit shows in choppers many forms, he is basically creating his own automata within himself and the fruit allows that to be manifested into a different form. so if a human had this fruit, although they would maintain their original form upon eating the fruit, they would be able to take different forms similarly to chopper.

this whole automata thing leads me to another major theory/connection, which is that emet is an automata. this would really explain a lot imo but ALSO if we look at how enel "revived" the automata by zapping/electrocuting them, i think this is MAJOR FORESHADOWING to luffy "reviving" emet via his gear 5. this means that emet has a programmed response to something with luffys fruit, and this leads me to think that JOYBOY HIMSELF created emet after lengthy studying of many automata blueprints. this also makes sense cause way back then when joyboy existed the complex automata blueprints may not have been destroyed yet, and in fact it could have been joyboy who destroyed the blueprints in order to prevent anyone (especially imu and their allies) from learning and being able to create this technology/power. it could also be that pluton is an automata hence why its considered "asleep," although is not like other automata in the fact that it is not humanoid (could still be alive like all other automata are shown to be, just not humanoid like the others and instead a warship). alongside this i believe that joyboy had to also study the pluton blueprints to help create emet. pluton and its blueprints also existed before joyboy and was not something made by joyboy, unlike emet. this would explain why it seems pluton can "get into the wrong hands" and be used for evil, because if joyboy was the one that created pluton he likely would have programmed a similar response to the nika powers as he did in emet. even though he was able to create emet and study pluton blueprints (to a degree), he actually would not have been able to create pluton himself because it requires an excellent shipwright and hence why joyboy could only use plutons blueprints for a little studying alongside the space automata blueprints in order to be able to create emet.

[trim marsh]

Wtf

[vague robin]

the op world is a distorted future of our own world, and had its continents prior to the sea level rising

[frosty jewel]

yo that chopper theory is nice

I like the idea of his forms being that

neat theory man

I hope its true

[proven lion]

@ocean yoke

Start there and read it

[ocean yoke]

The bit about first nika being a giant makes a lot of sense and explains the enormous hat that seems to be at disconnect with rest of series

The forbidden fire always seemed like the thing that gave bith to devil fruits but if it is motherflame then nika being first devil fruit makes sense to me

[proven lion]

Another thing to note is on Elbaph right now they're heavily implying dreams coming to reality, they're litteraly hinting at it, the Adam tree is the male version of the eve tree so it can't bare fruit that's the difference but the tree clearly holds special properties.

The sun did nothing but spread the fires of war is the key as far as second world for figuring it out there, the ancient power aka ancient mother flame was used to create weapons.

[proven lion]

Why do u think devil fruits don't combine with water?

Because it's a flame

[ocean yoke]

are you sure it said fire, because one translaion I know said seed

[proven lion]

This could also imply that the Nika fruit is the only "real fruit" and why it's so different from every other fruit

[ocean yoke]

Tbh

[proven lion]

Could still be viewed as devil fruits

[ocean yoke]

if nika is the forbidden flame incarnate then it would make sense why it is called sun god

even though nothing about its power is flame

[proven lion]

Well how does rubber get stretched? Through heat

[ocean yoke]

no.. through force.

[proven lion]

What is caused with force and friction?

Heat

[ocean yoke]

a bit of reach

[proven lion]

I'm not necessarily saying that it is the incarnation of the forbidden flame, what I'm saying is that it might have been the first fruit and to me it's not coincidence that there's a giant straw hat, and that the Harley text is from Elbaph

The first version of Nika was a giant slave

That's my theory ultimately

Also not a coincidence that the Adam and Eve tree irl counter part story ties to a forbidden fruit

[ocean yoke]

What I like about this giant slave bit is that imu may be even older than void century if this is true

since he is still keeping that strawhat

[proven lion]

He could be from the first world yes and the reason for ALL of it

Also the sunny being called the ship of dreams, and being built by the wood from the same tree as the one on Elbaph.

All of it meshes perfectly

[ocean yoke]

Something that bothers me about forbidden flame being responsible for devil fruits is the text in second world about forest god dispatching demons

Lot of people think it might be devil fruits

[proven lion]

Well it could be that's also part of my theory I have a more complete version I sent to my friends

Hold on

The first devil fruits appeared on a magical tree (likely the eve tree that is at the top of mariejois) , they were industrialized through machinery that were powered with a special energy aka what Vegapunk was working on (the mother flame) his version of it however was incomplete, so the first world the first devil fruit was created through a wish and in the 2nd world they figured out the secret and industrialized it.

@ocean yoke that's my thoughts

Copy pasted so it might be a bit out of context

[ocean yoke]

I get the idea

Something I toyed with is that the forbidden flame gave birth to first <something>-human people become when they eat the fruits but without the fruits, the forest god helped those powers circulate and the wills to pass on and created devil fruits from their corpses, you know, like how trees flourish on dead

[proven lion]

Also why we don't see any "new" devil fruits because we are missing a very key ingredient for them.

[proven lion]

Well I think the biggest key besides the flame is obviously a wish because of what both the Harley and Vegapunk said

[ocean yoke]

yeah also it is implied it was excavated from earth

maybe that is why earth god raged

[proven lion]

What do u mean by that

[ocean yoke]

The first harley text immediately after slave's prayers exclaims that earth god raged and with the snake changed the world, the first line of harley text says "on earth there is flame"

so that makes sense to me

[proven lion]

Is that from the first world?

[ocean yoke]

yep

[proven lion]

I read a different translation

Well I read several

Even Japanese

[ocean yoke]

I am gonna get the official translation

[proven lion]

I interpreted that red snake as the red line

So the red line was formed first world

[proven lion]

And the flood happened 2nd world

Atleast that's what I got from it

[ocean yoke]

Yeah flood is a common interpretation of it

I like the grandline bit though, since it is so unique and combines neatly with first world creating red line from earth god's rage

[proven lion]

But what ur saying I interpreted as red line because of what dory and brogy said early on

How the only thing their blade couldn't cut was the red serpent

I always thought they meant the red line

[ocean yoke]

It is said red line can die to gura gura so maybe it isn't that tough

[proven lion]

Is that implied?

Dont remember that bit

[ocean yoke]

Back in marineford sengoku was like "This man can destroy the world"

So I always thought gura gura could destroy redline as well

[proven lion]

Well yeah but idk that's more general, I think the gura gura might have had a hand in the floods

[ocean yoke]

It can cause tsunamis for sure

[proven lion]

But yeah more on Luffy and Nika fruit

I think that Luffys haki needs to be even stronger than what joyboys knot had stored

There is a lot of difference between him now and that I think

But that's when I think he will be comfortably the pirate king

[ocean yoke]

Assuming oda was playing unreliable narrator with luffy, yeah he may get a stronger haki from clashing with shanks who is said to have a similiar haki to joyboy (according to dorry and brogy)

[proven lion]

We will see, I mean I know it's going to happen but how? Without a time skip?

[ocean yoke]

Haki is rapidly strenghtened by fighting and learning from tough opponents like luffy vs katakuri (unlocked advanced coo) or luffy vs kaido (unlocked advanced coc)

So said silvers rayleigh

[simple cave]

he got advanced coo during udon no?

[ocean yoke]

What?

[final bloom]

think he meant conquerors

[ocean yoke]

No if he was confusing something he was confusing armament not conqueror

[modest skiff]

You're right and I apologize. I was on a bit of an extended hiatus, but sensei Shimon gave me the courage to unsheathe my blade. It will return to its former glory soon. Give it time and please let me, bec, or Merry know if anything is deviating from the honorable purpose of this channel

[simple cave]

no like he got advanced conquerors during teh fight with kaido but the entire point of his training in the prison wasnt to improve his conquerors, it was to get advanced armement, which he figured out when he ripped off the neck brace thingy

[ocean yoke]

I don't remember that at all, they were training advanced coa, advanced coo only got discovered later by sheer instinct during fight, similiar to katakuri fight
may I have some pannels?

[simple cave]

im slow

i confused coo and coa, read you specify it wasnt armement, and still thoguht itw as armement

[midnight nymph]

Shanks went to Mary joise after Rogers death, were he got the gryphon sword but after seeing the celestial dragons and how they behave he left that place and found frau-Mihawk

Then he lost his arm to I guess help Luffy differentiate between him and shamarock.
And in the reverie it was shanks who snitched on black beard

I mean to him black beard was such a big threat that he went Whitebeard to tell him to ace from going after him
That is all

[storm jackal]

Maybe shanks lost his arm on purpose because that arm had the mark to get summoned anytime without his consent like how the knights were summoned? Just a theory

[midnight nymph]

Oh?

[blazing dragon]

That’s a good theory

[thorny viper]

It would be funny if he did that cause he wanted people to know that he has a twin

I mean it helps luffy know shamrocks is def shank's twin, this guy can get manipulated easily, he got manipulated by foxy, like are we dead ass

[dusky acorn]

Isn’t the mark of the abyss embedded on a slip of paper that the holy knights wear?

[elder dirge]

This good just be a family crest of types, i think Imu would definitely want more than just an armband as a way to use a passage through the abyss, marking your own body to prove loyalty seems to line up better than an armband imo

[storm jackal]

Hmmm that seems like something they wear when they wear their knight gear. Idk, I thought the mark had to be circle looking tattoo thing on his left arm I think when he was wearing his undies

[steady prism]

you mean this? Yeah I agree I'm assuming the mark is a tattoo on their skin as well

[dusky acorn]

I considered the tattoo marking on Sommers' left arm as well as a culprit for the abyss mark. Albeit, judging how the catalyst for how these teleportations are done is via pentagrams, a symbol with religious significance meant to call demons, and how this very symbol shared between holy knights is one with a cross, as well as horns reminiscent of a demon, I believe the marking I suggested adds up quite reasonably.

[steady prism]

I don’t really disagree - we’re operating with little information so it’s possible the armband is the link to the abyss.

Assuming you’re right, why do you think Sommer got teleported when he wasn’t even wearing the armband? When he was teleported he was wearing his overcoat, but I can’t see the armband on his person (unless it’s hidden). He was also annoyed at Gunko (or whoever controls the abyss) because it teleported his room with him. Was it just proximity to his suitcase?

[dusky acorn]

Well, no matter which symbol we're theorising the mark is, the concrete info we have is that it holds the power to teleport only the bearer of the mark, along with potential nearby inanimate objects as well.

If we go by this with the belongings of Sommers' room, it's certainly possible the mark transports the bearer too, even without physical contact and just in close proximity.
So as for your question, I agree with it.

On the other hand, I think the significance of showcasing Sommers' tattoo may be to relate him to the Briss Kingdom from the South Blue. The "St. Briss" ship features a very similar design.

Perhaps it was the Shepard family's symbol all along whom originated from Briss, just as the Donquixote originally hailed from Dressrosa?

[storm jackal]

Yeah that's the mark I'm talking about

[storm jackal]

Btw isn't that the same looking pentagram circle brook ended up in when that village was trying to summon a demon?

[dusky acorn]

That's right, ch 524. nation of Hungeria from Lazy Bones Island

In any case, I compiled some panels of evidence and would like to once again pitch a theory that I've never seen thought of by others, yet feel adamant in coming true.

I truly think that a lesser Red Hair crew-mate, or even a captain of the notoriously "weak" fleet as a witness to the conflict by Elbaph is highly likely for the identity of the one behind Loki's transponder snail.

I feel disheartened when the contents of the dialogue between the Shaggy individual and Loki are seemingly tossed aside entirely, when guesses such as Gaban, Jarul, or even Biblo are brought up.

Please feel free to read the connections I've made and offer any insight or critique

[flat lagoon]

I am always clowning on Mosa being some old hag or something, but this makes sense that such an introduction can be done, but how would Loki ever be coming in contact with and keep yapping with a Shanks fleet memeber who is aggravated due to Shanks etc. Plus the whole "If I was in your place I would have burned the entire place down .." from Loki makes it seem it's either an ex slave who id describing Mariejois etc or someone actually up there suffering some vile stuff.

[dusky acorn]

I think Loki would be in contact with someone on Shanks' side due to Shanks being the one who originally took him down, after all!

Shanks is known for visiting Elbaph numerous times, and even goes into the Underworld to personally see Loki.

If Shanks really is interested in keeping tabs on Loki like that, then it fits for Shanks to have placed a transponder snail that connects to one of his trusted allies.

So their "long-term" connection could have actually started as far back as 6 years ago, in this case. Of course Loki hates Shanks, but if he doesn't have much to do except talk to this specific person, whether they happen to be an ally of his enemy or not, forming some kind of long-term friendship over the years may just be bound to happen.

(If such a title even means much to Loki though. Besides the Underworld animals, Hajrudin stated Loki had a history of betraying so-called "friends" on a whim.)

[dusky acorn]

Well, despite the Red Hair conflict occuring at sea, it was stated by the narrator multiple times to have occurred at "War-Land, Elbaph", which it pretty much did

I assume that by "razing it all to the ground", Loki meant not just Kid's ship, but he would have destroyed the other ships on scene such as the Red Force, and even Elbaph itself. We do now have a glimpse of what Loki is capable of, and know he isn't beyond destroying his own homeland after all.

[flat lagoon]

mmmmmm that makes sense that seeing Loki getting chained up some Shanks fleet member might have related and given means of contact aka Mosa Ko. In 6 years time such a friendship could be established that Mosa Ko reveals something traumatic that happened while being part of the crew, enemy of Shanks or allied with him or not doesn't matter. But I still think this is far fetched. Either way we will be getting a reveal sooner than later lmao.

[flat lagoon]

again Loki with his typical rage, says he'd slaughter everyone etc and the honorifics suggest that the said person Mosa ko is of nobility or respected. Don't wanna dig further but yeah.

[opal tusk]

what if yukiryu island has some of the original non-man-made dragons frozen there. since the island is always snowing it could be. like kuzans time capsule

source:

[hexed pecan]

Typed this up on a different channel, but I moved it here.

---- My theories about Blackbeard, Buggy, Cross Guild's fate, and the final villian Luffy faces ----

I think Blackbeard will be a very important villain later in the One Piece story, he could possibly clash between Buggy & Shanks or like, fight against Luffy at some point (Only Oda can come up with something there though)

Speaking of Buggy, I think he'll abandon Cross Guild to find Shanks for a 2nd chance to join him on his crew, and Mihawk & Crocodile will be stopped by the World Government soon after

I'm gonna say this for the story finale: Imu will, hopefully (In my eyes), be the final villain Luffy will end up facing in the entire story

Seems like there's no general theory channel, so I posted it here :T

[toxic sorrel]

ok what if the kirin guy is getting devil fruits from dreams and that's how gunko seems to have the same ability as imu

[dusky acorn]

But we've seen Gunko's devil fruit within a narrator box, which is a pretty objective metric. It's an arrow-arrow devil fruit all things considered. The real question should be how is Imu emulating the power of Gunko's devil fruit?

Judging by the last page of the latest chapter, I believe Loki killed his father for the devil fruit because it would have been given away to the World Government if he didn't.

My hypothesis is that Harald was striking up a deal with the World Government to be an affiliated nation to further the nation's focus on peace and trade, but the deal that was struck involved giving away the sacred devil fruit passed down among the royal line.

Of course that kind of wager isn't how other countries have affiliated themselves with the WG, but we know how schemey the Gorosei can operate when it comes to deals they wish to benefit from as much as possible, thanks to Saturn's experience with Kuma anyway.

[toxic sorrel]

harold would never do anything wrong he's the goat, it's all jarul's fault trust me

[mighty eagle]

do u guys thin dragon and revolutionary army is attacking marie jois rn and thats why shmarock got called back

and i think shanks got the fruit to give it to ace but luffy ate it

[pure raven]

I think that Usopp will end up lifting Ragnir. The sheer parallels to him having the goofy comedic relief and then doing that would be bloody hilarious

[ebon needle]

That would be funny. All giants will worship him.

Back in Thriller Bark, he lifted a fake 100-ton hammer.

[spare meadow]

I'm not sure if this will get deleted, since it's not the most in depth ever and it has slight headcanon but anyway

We basically know for sure now that Loki in fact did NOT kill King Harald, so someone else was involved. We already know that the Holy Knights have some connection to him because Sommers asked Shamrock if he was there "visiting Harald's grave?" and they seem to know a lot about it despite it being an unafilliated country which suggests they have connections.

There's a whole thing about the 2 Figarland brothers causing Loki trouble despite being disconnected and in unrelated scenarios. Wouldn't it be perfect if Garling was the one who killed Harald and is the one who originally caused Loki to be chained and be the root of the (main) problem?

[umbral summit]

They obviously used the dream guy to create a loki look alike and kill Harold. Loki i think is blind?

[iron current]

No we don't know for sure, it's possible he didn't but it sounded more like he didn't do it cold blooded but more like he had no choice

[slender fulcrum]

Loki did kill Harold. Its the intent that is different. He didnt do it out of bloodlust and stuff. He relunctantly do it because he probably had no other choices or was forced to.

[final bloom]

could be doing that to get the devil fruit before its in government's hands

[dusky acorn]

Yes, that's precisley my theory too! To the late Harald, a devil fruit that encourages more violence and can even make one believe they're a "sun god" that will "destroy the world" may not have been deemed necessary to keep for the nation anymore. He's the same figure that even ripped his ancient giant horns out to symbolise his pacifism.

This clash of ideologies is what led Loki to eliminate his father, as Harald potentially wanted to give away the most important fruit for Elbaph, due to some trade scheme going on.
It would have been too much of a hit to Loki's pride-- and what it would mean for the proud nation of Elbaph to give up on their tradition of keeping it.

For Loki to have the knowledge that something was happening, compared to the other villagers who hate him checks out too. They must be unaware as to what Harald's plans were, but Loki wasn't, being the son that was closest to his father, both residing in the castle.

Ultimately, this conclusion checks out with the Holy Knights current mission of trying to affiliate Elbaph by force this time, if they already did try alternate methods such as a deal with a former king that didn't pan out, due to Loki.

It also fits with the Knights recruiting Loki, given he's the current bearer of the fruit the World Government may have wanted to get their hands on.

[final bloom]

speaking of horns, Hajrudin doesnt have it tho theyre siblings? did hajrudin come from another mother or i missed smth?

[rotund mortar]

yes their mothers were different

Hajrudins mother couldn't be the queen of Elbaf cuz she was from a different tribe or smth, then Harold married lokis mother

[tawny osprey]

Yes his mom is from a different giant village

[rotund mortar]

Weird theory here. In the murals, second world in this case, there’s written something like this.
“Within the void there was breath. The forest god tamed demons and the sun spread fires of war. Those of the half-moon dreamed. Those of the moon dreamed. Man killed the sun and became god, and the sea god stormed. And they will never meet.”
The ‘forest god tamed demons’ part is about the devil fruits I think, because forest has trees and devils/demons became fruits. ‘Sun’ is obviously Nika/Joyboy.
Then it gets strange.
‘Half-moon’ seems to be about those of D bloodline. Then what about moon/full moon?
Enel found a civilization on Moon, connected to lunarians, shandians and people living on sky islands in general right? Could they be the ones called ‘those of moon’?
They were dreaming, both half and full moons. Half-moons dreaming makes sense, somewhat, but full-moon doesn’t, is what I was thinking, but then I remembered that dreaming could also mean the devil fruits creation or something like that instead.

Now, about ‘Man killed the sun and became god’ part. Given that sun signifies Nika, so it was Joyboy at the time, ‘Man’ could be written both about 20 kings and IMU.
My first thought was obv IMU, cuz it says ‘Man’ and not in plural, and also because Imu has some kind of ties to immortality, as seen with 5 Elders. Seems like a godly aspect to me.
Then the ‘and the sea god stormed’ part. This can be about the rise of sea level, like it went up 200 meters as Vegapunk said.
But the continuation makes it strange. ‘And they will never meet.’ No matter how much I think about this, it’s surely about the promise Joyboy failed to keep.
But why would ‘sun’ meet the ‘sea’? The promise itself is very vague, but we know that it’s connected to Poseidon raising Noah with the help of Sea kings right?
At first I was thinking that it’s about saving humans and whatnot if sea ever rose that much, to swallow the islands fully.
But then I was like, hold up.
Why would sea rise that much?
First time round it was because ‘sea god’ got angry when ‘Man’ killed ‘sun’.
Because they didn’t meet.
So it got me thinking what if when ‘sun’ meets ‘sea’, or like frees it or something, can the world be overflowed once again? What if this is why Noah exists?
Then the third world words.
“Within the chaos there was emptiness. The inconvenient remnants recall the promised day and hear the voice of the half-moon. The sun god dances and laughs, guiding the world to its end. The sun returns and brings a new morning. And they will surely meet.”
Not sure what the first sentence is about, but the second one’s about 5 Elders and Imu, I think because they were the ones to recall Joyboy’s ‘voice’, and he seems to be the/a D.

The next part seems ominous ‘The sun god dances and laughs, guiding the world to its end.’, I can see why the kids thought Nika would end the world, it’s kind of the literal interpretation. But then what if the ‘end’ refers to a new start, because Nika’s destruction (nika/joyboy makes what they touch white, rewrite it) is essentially a new start, creation.
‘The sun returns and brings a new morning.’ Is perfectly clear, it’s very obviously about the next coming of Nika which already happened.

Now, in the last part it said ‘Man killed the sun and became god, and the sea god stormed. And they will never meet’ now it says ‘And they will surely meet’ so I think it’s safe to assume that the last passage is about Sun and Sea gods meeting.

The first world is a little tricky, it goes like this
“Within the earth there was fire. Mankind succumbed to greed and touched the forbidden sun. The enslaved prayed, and the sun god appeared. The earth god raged, and with its serpent of hellfire, shrouded the world in death and darkness. And they will never meet.”
I don’t have much information about whats written here, but there’s something interesting here too.
‘The Forbidden sun’
I think it’s a jab to mother flame, as it seems fitting enough, and given that’s its being kept as a tight secret. Why would ‘Mankind’ want to touch it, succumbing to greed, however I do not know or have an idea.
‘The earth god raged, and with its serpent of hellfire, shrouded the world in death and darkness.’
Earth god is very strange, why is he angry here? Because humans touched the ‘forbidden star’, or because ‘the sun god appeared’? Very vague.

Both the first and second world end with the words ‘And they will never meet.’, but that is not the case for the third one. Not sure if that is because they both happened, or because people are sure that the third times the charm (further symbolism here, connected to Adam and Eve, but this idea seemed too far fetched.)

[primal crow]

In the glimpse of Loki and Hajrudin's childhood, we see Loki has bandages on his eyes still. Could his mother have given him some kind of trait that affects his eyes? Like how Pudding inherited her third eye. I'm not assuming that it is, just that it could be similar if Hajrudin and Harold both have their eyes shown.

[spare meadow]

yeah ur lowkey right but in the tcb it just sounded like he didnt, but i looked at the spoilers and the other translations are more like he didnt want to, but either way this theory would still apply cuz someone else would be involved

[dusky acorn]

I originally considered the eye covering to simply be a reference to the actual Loki from Norse mythology, who was blinded during imprisonment as part of his punishment. But as you said, we now know he wore them even as a child.

What we can point to though is that Loki seemingly never wears them whenever he has freedom to go wild.
Both when he was out at sea rampaging and met Lola, and "whenever the king was away" with his mischevious antics.

Since Oda keeps drawing the silhouette exactly with the eyes actually shown like this, we definitely know it wasn't just part of some scrapped "beta" Loki design from back in Whole Cake Island arc, or something.

Going along with your theory of them letting him harness some sort of special power similar to the three-eyed tribe, perhaps under his father's discipline he was made to hide them away? That would explain why he takes them off "whenever the king was away". Then potentially, the bandages were forced on him once again during imprisonment by the other Elbaph giants.

If this is true, then we may see Loki take off the bandages once all the sea prism shackles are off and he's ready to initiate his revenge on the Holy Knights.

[harsh ibex]

That is simply not true… he doesn’t blatantly say he didn’t kill Harland

[vague robin]

hear me out:

there’s definitely gotta be some connection between scopper, sanji, and killingham because of all their love talk and shit

killingham might kill scopper, with sanji avenging him or whatever

obviously the two would need some time to bond over love before that though, since he probably wouldn’t want to avenge someone he thinks is just some old axe man

[spare meadow]

ok same diff, garling could've been involved in the thing because loki didnt just kill him for no reaosn

[lean blaze]

If Killingham/Gillingham's power of Imagination Manifestation is any indication, the powers of the unrevealed Holy Knights might be even more broken

[terse garnet]

Wild theory:
Since entering Elbaph we came across the introduction of a Nika the destroyer. That was also depicted in him having dark clouds instead of white ones. So many people believe in such a version of the Sun God. Even Gabban noted on Luffys White Form. So here comes my theory into play. What if there’s an actual dark transformation for the Nika Fruit? Something like an Alter Ego. Or let’s say, the failed awakening of Nika turns him into that dark version. We already have seen failed awakenings in Impel Down and they were succumbed to the actual fruit.. Now it gets wilder, what if Luffy somehow, pushing his limits, with transforming into G5, and turns into that exact Dark version. This way Oda could show us the one Nika, all were afraid off.
We have these typ of lores in other japanese masterpieces, such as ||Ichogos Hollow form or Sora from Kingdom Hearts transforming into a heartless if you transform to often…||
So Luffy fighting against Kaido Awakened his Devil Fruit
Luffy against Holy Knights will help him mastering his Awakening, thus unlocking the power of destruction from the dark version

[dusky acorn]

But as long as the user's mind and persona catches up to their devil fruit, aren't they supposed to be permanently out of the woods when it comes to succumbing to a failed awakening taking them over?

No matter how difficult a battle gets or how tired a user is, I was under the assumption that it's merely an innate thing that determines whether one stays truly awakened forever, or fails and has to stay regressed like the jailer beasts.

We have seen Luffy very worn out in between repeatedly using Gear 5 with no such dark, failed transformation happening after all.

I do agree with the existence of a dark, alter ego to the Nika fruit, though.
But judging from Vegapunk's hypothesis on how devil fruits come into existence in the first place, isn't an evil black Nika likely to be a seperate devil fruit entirely?

(There already have been very similar powers in the past, yet still came from distinctly different devil fruits, such as the kilo-kilo fruit and ton-ton fruit.)

And now Vegapunk proposed his theory that devil fruits exist based on people's beliefs and dreams of what powers they wish to have.

If enough citizens in Elbaph had strong wishes such as "if only I could be Nika, the dark bringer of destruction..", through the generations, (like Loki clearly does as a prime example), then wouldn't that likely be the devil fruit Elbaph was bearing which Loki actually ate?

[inner dock]

I’ve been thinking of a theory for a bit and now it is being slightly confirmed in the latest chapter so I thought of sharing it .

We have seen king Harold with a world government summoning circle in his throne room , one thing we learned in egghead is that someone has to go there to make a summoning circle so that can’t be shamrock placing it , therefore there is an association between king Harold and world government.

Yarle discovered the summoning circle and was curious about it so he started spying on Harold , having seen what came out of it he started preparing a coup d’état , he tried killing Harold in his throne room , and managed to murder him in an intense battle that got him his sword in the head

Yarle , not wanting his nation go in a civil war due to the political split in the people , some wanting a warrior civilization and others wanting peace and science , asked Loki to take the blame for the murder of Harold

[inner dock]

Or as someone told me it was Loki that saw what came out of Harold’s summoning circle and killed his father , that still doesn’t explain why jarul has a sword in his head but seems more plausible. And the emprisonnement reason of emprisonnement of Loki doesn’t change from what the manga stated

But I don’t really think that is true because Loki said that he wasn’t the one killing Harold , it is not confirmed yet and we know from Nordic mythology that Loki is a trickster

[gritty kite]

The jailer beasts were never said to be failed awakenings.

[cosmic ermine]

Will Nika take over Luffy as sort of a final transformation against Imu/Blackbeard? Would be interesting. I wonder why we havent seen zoan awakening "takeovers" since impel down

[gritty kite]

Being taken over by the fruit is not the same as a “failed awakening”. Can we say for sure Luffy wasn’t a bit taken over by Nikas personality when he was laughing like crazy and playing around with kaido?

[inner dock]

It is true it isn’t in Luffy’s personality especially that kaido hurt his friends which luffy doesn’t like very much

[late elm]

It’s how it’s explained. Oda is just saying the reason for the failed awakeneings of zoans.

Instead of the alter ego/ seperate devil fruit theories, I think it’s plausible that the bad/ destroyer nika that was manifested by the children’s dreams are remnants of someone who previously had the fruit and did something that the giants didn’t like. It’s like vegapunk said that he can’t judge who was right or wrong. Joyboy or the original nika could have done something to upset the giants back in the day whether it was destroying a world tree or something sacred to them to try to help others and that’s why some view Nika as a destroyer. Similar to the madam sharley prophecy of luffy destroying fishman Island which is theorized to be luffy actually destroying the red line in turn helping the fishman by letting them reach the surface

[inner dock]

Evil nika sounds like what happened in the 2nd world to me

[vast sigil]

He wasn't, that's just Luffy. He and the fruit embodies the same "dream"

[gritty kite]

Headcanon

[gritty kite]

Dark nika so far is just an image the kids formed from the fear of Nika destroying the world which is just an interpretation of the Harley book which is difficult to translate. It doesn’t come from any kind of historical facts. Dark nika might just be a completely unfounded fear.

[gritty kite]

And at no point he said they are failed. We don’t know if for example Lucci can be fighting with his awakening form and temporarily or permanently be taken over by the fruit under certain physical or mental circumstances. Would that mean his awakened is failed?

[vast sigil]

That's what all theory is?

[west jolt]

is there a theory of why harold hates his own ancient giant blood and wants to affiliate with WG? i hope it's not because he wants to join the celestial dragons bs again.

[gritty kite]

Not really. See how I presented what I thought, I don’t present it as facts, I say it might be this way, or that something might mean x. You just stated something as if it was a fact. It’s important to separate fact and theory, because facts are often mentioned here and for many people it ends up creating misinformation

[dusky acorn]

It seems to be related to Mother Carmel's influence on Elbaph. After all, she spent 37 years in the nation which even spanned through Harald's time reigning as a king.

Seemingly before Harald was known for pushing pacifistic ideals, Carmel was the one responsible for influencing thoughts such as trade over plunder towards the nation.

Because of Carmel and then Harald, this mindset carries over to Ripley and the next generation of oversized squirts in Elbaph too.

Perhaps Big Mom's violent event to their village was a wake-up call for King Harald to realise that Mother Carmel was correct, and violence isn't a valid action to resort to?

The real question lies in whether King Harald changed his views while percieving Carmel as a saint like every other giant did, or did he know her evil little secret?
He could have been a villain in his own right for the goodness of Elbaph too.

Judging by Loki's dialogue in the latest chapter, it seems there really could have been some sort of darkness lurking within Harald's heart for Loki to reluctantly feel the need to kill him.
The way Harald's face and body are eerily shadowed out seemingly for no reason, when we already know exactly what he looks like helps vouch for this idea, anyway.

Ultimately, given that the "golden boy" of Elbaph's next generation of giants is Colon, (the only one following the warrior-Elbaph way), I think we're led to believe the so-called pacifist figures of Elbaph (Mother Carmel & Harald) are actually bad guys for the goodness of the country.

Harald's teachings may have just been out to slowly weaken the country in mindset and forces, to submit easily for inevitable affiliation to the World Government.

On the flipside, this means Elbaph sticking to their traditional ways would actually be the right path for the country. To be strong and not easily submit to a corrupt government, and perhaps also to be ready to fight on Nika's side in this "Third World" of One Piece, to reach the positive resolution.

[late elm]

It’s based on the will of the user. If they awaken their fruit and their will is not strong enough then the personality of the beast will overtake the user.

[thorny viper]

Those who know blackbeard would come out no where to steal Loki's fruit and get the hell out

I am assuming, the monster trio would leave loki to the giants who will take care of loki, therefore this is a perfect chance for blackbeard to kill loki