mod_development

[faint jewel]

my dual cellphones... i had to change that bone or the phone was facing away from the ear 😛

[finite radish]

yes, but we're talking about attachment points - which use a rotational offset from the bone translate

[red tiger]

@tame mulch This file should be helpful for you when looking at internal types for event functions. (Wrote this for build 41.68 using the Wiki for Lua events)

All the event functions are there for what's known in 41.68.

[faint jewel]

THAt is whAt i am saying.

YOU HAVE TO ROTATE 90 DEGREES FROM THE PROP2 BONE

[finite radish]

that's why you need to start digging at the code to find where each AttachmentType is defined and the entrypoint

[red tiger]

Actually that file looks somewhat dated..

Heh

It's a lot cleaner now.

[finite radish]

you don't have to rotate "from" anything - it'll automatically use the bone's translate as the origin point.

(hence why it's an offset)

[red tiger]

Sorry. Use this: https://github.com/asledgehammer/PipeWrench-Events/blob/stable/PipeWrench-Events.d.ts

I sent you the old one prior to optimizations.

This is good for seeing what is actually passed for the events, rather than assuming them.

I'll also need to see what's changes since 41.68.

[thick karma]

Well something certainly has to rotate from wherever it is to fix this. It's clearly a rotation issue, right? Skizot seems to be suggesting that the item is rotated in relation to the prop2 bone.

The rotation assigned to any equipped item clearly has to be relative. So the question becomes relative to what? I think @faint jewel is saying it's relative to the prop2 bone...

[faint jewel]

well your new attachment point, needs to be based off prop2 and rotated 90 fricking degrees.

i wish @late hound was here, he could use whatever buzzwords you would have to hear to understand what i am saying.

[thick karma]

Maybe I'll ask Peach for clarification if they ever show up. No big deal. This does not have to get solved any time soon. Just a side exploration that has me bamboozled.

[ancient grail]

Yo skiz
I saw the light switches u made for nippy
I know its from a tile but lets say we have worldstaticmodels we want to place to the char. Is its hard to do or just correct placing and size?

If i have a

[thick karma]

Thanks for the insight regardless. It definitely looks like a model problem to me, not a matter of this or that individual item being rotated wrong. Literally every in-game item looks wrong in my left hand.

[faint jewel]

if you have a WHAT?

[thick karma]

😦

wrong wrong wrong...

[faint jewel]

yup.

[thick karma]

"wrong"

(maybe that's how they want it)

[faint jewel]

if there is a way to OVERRIDE that I would like to know as well.

[thick karma]

But... sure looks wrong to me.

[ancient grail]

A world static like the 3d that can be placed on the ground

[faint jewel]

i dont think it was that far planned out.

if you have a model i can help make it carryable.

[sour island]

figured out the issue I guess

getGameSpeed = 0 on servers

🤔

[finite radish]

it's a rotation issue on the model, not the bone

[faint jewel]

HMMMM!

I might have found somethng.

burry

can you put a gas can in both hands?

[thick karma]

By "model" do you mean the hammer? Or the player character?

[faint jewel]

teh player

dammit no.

this wont work.

[thick karma]

So you're saying the player's forearm is rotated wrong at the model level or what? What part of the player model do you believe to be rotated wrong?

[golden sparrow]

GameSpeed = 0 is x1

[finite radish]

no - the hammer model is attached to the player model - so it's an issue with the translate of the model that's being attached

[ancient grail]

For real? Sounds illogical but ok . I believe u haha

[golden sparrow]

Like 1 = x1 , 2 = x5 , 3 = x20, 4 = x40

[finite radish]

(you would only want to modify the bone position if you're making a new anim entirely - but you aren't doing that (yet))

[thick karma]

So you think that every single model in the game is attached in this weird and subjectively wrong-seeming way?

[golden sparrow]

it correspond to the option you have top right in SP

[thick karma]

They copy-pasted this wrong strategy to the way they attach hammers, and machetes, and guns, etc?

[finite radish]

huh? the vanilla attachments work fine lol, but if you're attaching something to a different bone entirely then it needs a reference for that bone in particular. the left hand isn't the right hand, in other words

it's not wrong by any stretch of imagination

[faint jewel]

the prop2 bone is wrong.

[thick karma]

Have you even looked at the pictures I posted?

[finite radish]

yes?

[thick karma]

Look at how the player holds a pistol in left hand

[finite radish]

...in left hand

yes

🙂

[thick karma]

So how is that not wrong?

because people can't hold things in their left hand?

[finite radish]

because the model isn't set up to be held in the left hand.

it's set to be attached to a completely different bone

[faint jewel]

does THIS help any?

[finite radish]

no - that's the bone

[thick karma]

I hear you @faint jewel

[faint jewel]

THAT would fix ALL the left hand holding.

[finite radish]

it'd also break a lot of stuff if you don't rotate it back, and it's a hacky fix at best

[faint jewel]

Bip01_Prop2

well then they need to fix the OTHER SHIT. because that's all hacky and wrong.

[finite radish]

not sure what you mean by that, the items you hold in your left hand work fine

[sour island]

but my events use gametime * for speed control

and there isn't an issue is SP?

[thick karma]

But they don't look right.

[faint jewel]

OOOOOOHHHH HPOSSIBLE IDEA

[finite radish]

they do if they're offset properly - try holding a bag in your left hand

[sour island]

I don't think 0 = x1

but for some reason the server's game is paused 🤔

or the time just isn't set

[thick karma]

Right but that is a fundamentally different item. I am talking about how almost everything but bags looks

[faint jewel]

the bags all use the left hand bone anyways.

[finite radish]

yes, but it's the same concept

...yes

[thick karma]

If you don't think the way the game draws your gun in your left hand looks wrong, I really don't know what to tell you, except, "Okay."

[finite radish]

that's the point

dude lol

how are you not getting this

the rotation of the MODEL that's being attached to the BONE is what you need to set, for the left hand bone

it cannot use the settings that the right hand bone uses, because the left hand is in a different position with different rotation than the right hand bone

so you need to find where the rotation offset for attaching it to the right hand is, so you can make a similar offset for the left hand

[faint jewel]

you tell ME how to make a model have two DIFFERENT transforms then

because that is what you are saying.

or you want a SECOND model for the left hand maybe?

[pulsar heath]

is that for the tools?

[finite radish]

attachment bighikingbaglefthand
        {
            offset = 0.8790 0.2000 -0.0740,
            rotate = 178.0000 -15.0000 77.0000,
            bone = Bip01_L_Hand,
        }

        attachment hikingbagrighthand
        {
            offset = 0.8960 -0.1300 -0.0440,
            rotate = -178.0000 -15.0000 100.0000,
            bone = Bip01_R_Hand,
        }```

that's precisely what I'm saying

@thick karma you can try changing the world offset for Hammer in that file - maybe it's using those values for the right hand attachment as well, as a sort of default?

[golden sparrow]

Talking about the getGameSpeed function

[thick karma]

I hear what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that if the rotation offset for each item's model or type of model is defined somewhere, that means that each of those models or types has the wrong rotation offset definiton, or NO rotation offset definition, for your left hand.

[finite radish]

yes, that's exactly the case - because why would they have one set? they aren't meant to be held in the left hand in the vanilla game.

[thick karma]

But they are allowed to be held.

So it's wrong.

[finite radish]

...that's not wrong, it just doesn't display the model

[golden sparrow]

getGameSpeed don't get you the actual game speed but a int from 0-4 based on value you can select in SP

[thick karma]

"Meant to" is just trying to pretend they didn't do it wrong.

[finite radish]

what lmfao

that's nonsense

[thick karma]

you say we're not "meant to" hold a gun in our left hand

Not "meant to" hold a hammer

But we CAN

so meant to is nonsense language

[finite radish]

you want them to implement offsets manually for every single bone on the player character? like what lmfao

every item + every bone combination

that's thousands of manual offsets

[thick karma]

If they allow the equipping of items that way, and they look wrong that way, then it's fair to say the way they let us equip MANY items in our left hand is wrong

That's all I'm saying.

[red tiger]

Always fun to watch Node install on a new computer..

[finite radish]

except you can't use a weapon in the left hand, and you'd have no reason to equip a weapon in the left hand, except for using them as tools. and even then - don't they just not show up when you equip them secondary?

[thick karma]

No, they do show up

I just showed you pictures...

They show up... wrong...

[finite radish]

I didn't know if you attached those using the attachment debugger or not

[thick karma]

No.

The game is just doing it wrong

lol

[finite radish]

the fact that no one has really cared about this before is just evidence that it's not really an issue

[thick karma]

but you seem resistant to anyone pointing that out

[pulsar heath]

its a matter of perspective 😄

[thick karma]

lol sure @pulsar heath

[pulsar heath]

its like the sendclient and sendserver

[finite radish]

because it's not really "wrong" if you're already doing something weird in the first place, it's just not implemented behavior

[pulsar heath]

for me its wrong the way they do it

[thick karma]

From my perspective, running around with a big sharp blade pointed AT your own thigh is not ideal.

[pulsar heath]

so... perspective 😄

[thick karma]

But yeah, subjectivity and such.

[thick karma]

It's wrong, and you're wrong. lol

[finite radish]

then don't equip it in your left hand there's no use for equipping it in your left hand, so why would anyone

[pulsar heath]

dual wirld

wield

[thick karma]

HOLDING the item is implemented behavior

we HOLD it wrong

[faint jewel]

he's making a dual weild mod.

[finite radish]

if it were an issue, someone would care and would have fixed it (they haven't!)

[thick karma]

lol deny that until you're dead, that's fine, but you're not convincing anyone

[faint jewel]

what's get gonna do? strap it to his dong? LOL

[pulsar heath]

triple wield?

😄

[finite radish]

...no? lmfao keep it in his bag or equip it in his primary slot like a normal person

because, as I pointed out, there's no functionality implemented for secondary weapons

[faint jewel]

also, just so you know... ONLY CLOTHING can use those attachment points.

[finite radish]

that's why this is probably the first time anyone is bringing this up - because it's an issue of the player doing something really stupid

[pulsar heath]

finally done going through the error log from yesterday's test

[thick karma]

No functionality except, as I pointed out, holding them, which is most definitely a functionality on the programmatic and aesthetic level.

[finite radish]

...that's not true, at all

[thick karma]

And that functionality is functioning wrong.

Lmao

[faint jewel]

show me something that isn't clothing that uses them?

[finite radish]

literally any item with a 3D model can use them. you can prove it to yourself in less than 10 seconds if you have the game open - click "Attachment Editor" or whatever it's called

[faint jewel]

also when items are equipped to back etc they count as clothing.

[pulsar heath]

really?

[finite radish]

that's not really the case

at all

it just attaches a model to the player at a given bone

that's why you can attach anything to any bone, using the debugger

[faint jewel]

well notice NOT ONE of the attachment use the prop bone.

which is what ALL the weapons use.

[finite radish]

because that's handled by the AttachmentType property

I already said that, multiple times

(and also because zombies shouldn't be carring weapons in their hands!)

[pulsar heath]

so the problem is the weapon "look" when equiped?!

[drifting stump]

@red tiger from my testing update seems to trigger at 10fps regardless of ui render speed

[faint jewel]

you sir, are wrong. you die on your hill but it's in the wrong spot.

[pulsar heath]

cant you just ( a lot of work )

[drifting stump]

couldnt validate in code

[red tiger]

This is why I use OnTickEvenPaused.

[pulsar heath]

create "skins" that when equiped on secondary replace the original?

[finite radish]

I don't know what you're smoking but I need some of it. It's all literally there in the code, you can go look at it

[pulsar heath]

wouldnt that make it look "fine"=

?

[red tiger]

TIS's current UI implementation doesn't need a high-frequency update tick for UI soooo I guess this wouldn't be a priority for them to fix.

[faint jewel]

M3ss, the problem is, the attchment point for weapons in the left hand is rotated wrong in the player model. he SWEARS it's in the attchment points but not ONE attachment point uses the prop2 bone.

[drifting stump]

terrible usage

[thick karma]

@finite radish If you can show us where the code orients a weapon (e.g. a hammer) equipped in your left hand in relation to your model / bones / anything at all... Please do.

I cannot find that.

[drifting stump]

you only ever need to update the ui whenever a new one is rendered

[thick karma]

That would be far more useful than being told that it's actually not wrong. 😉

[drifting stump]

aka use render

[red tiger]

Not if you pool all elements under one event register.

[sour island]

models are not orientated to sit on a bone - it's hard baked afaik

[red tiger]

Element caching would be so helpful.

[drifting stump]

you still dont need to update that fast/slow

[faint jewel]

they do.

[sour island]

as in there's a model for the item and a model for on_floor

[faint jewel]

i promise you.

[ancient grail]

Omg multiple convo going on
Mod chats busy tonight

[drifting stump]

only ever at the correct time which is on render

[red tiger]

I do not use render() because CPU logic should be outside of render()

[drifting stump]

if anything you could use OnPreUIDraw

[sour island]

which I don't get but I don't do models - it seems like it'd make more sense to reuse the same model files for floor/in_hand

[red tiger]

prerender() works too.

[finite radish]

isoGameCharacter.secondaryHandModel = this.addEquippedModelInstance(isoGameCharacter, owner, inventoryItem2, "Bip01_Prop2", inventoryItem2.getItemReplacementSecondHand(), b);

getItemReplacementSecondHand is tied to getItemReplacement, which is tied to getAttachmentType, which is tied to the item script wherein AttachmentType is set.

[drifting stump]

it doesnt matter if called render or not its just a name

[pulsar heath]

if everything else works, just detect if is equiped as secondary and manipulate the model so that it looks properly equiped... isnt that a simple way to do it?

[drifting stump]

its simply the hook triggered when the ui is going to be drawn

[red tiger]

I'm following what I've learned to be proper separation of render logic and cpu logic.. Even though the render methods for UI runs on the main thread.

It's just a force of good habit.

[drifting stump]

i understand from that perspective but tying this to ticks is not a good choice

[thick karma]

So how is getItemReplacement rotating the secondary item such that it looks... like it looks... for so many items?

[red tiger]

Not sure why TIS went with render-caching draw instructions for UI. I'm guessing the issue would be how Kahlua handles multiple threaded environments.

[thick karma]

Is that Javaside entirely I'm guessing?

[drifting stump]

leads to either not enough updates or too many depending on ui fps settings

[sour island]

Models for attachments aren't rotated afaik - the only place I saw rotation was for world attachment

[red tiger]

I'd prefer an async environment but I haven't tried to experiment with implementing that.

[finite radish]

it's not - it's getting the AttachmentType and using an offset stored in that (maybe that world attachment offset we saw earier - I thought it was for Place Item but maybe it's not, who knows - it could also be stored in the model itself for all I know)

so since the AttachmentType is meant for a right-hand item and defined as such, it's using that data for the left hand as well

[thick karma]

We're talking about how guns / knives / hammers / etc. look when attached to your left hand

There is a clear indication that they are rotated wrong at some point

Whether in the code, or at the model level, I do not know.

[faint jewel]

that would be the model

[sour island]

wrong in what way?

upside down?

[thick karma]

Skizot says model, Crater disagrees but I'm not clear on where its rotation IS defined, because I haven't yet seen that code.

[faint jewel]

rotated 90 degree

[sour island]

I faintly recall seeing that done in java

[finite radish]

Skizot is saying the attachment point is rotated incorrectly, I'm saying the model is using a rotation transform designed for the right hand

[faint jewel]

it IS.

[drifting stump]

my issue with prerender is because i like using it for stuff like panels where it has a background and then you draw on top of that

[faint jewel]

i mean i've only been fucking with then for the past 3 weeks making all these damned held items.

[drifting stump]

easier to keep the background on prerender and only overwrite render for the rest without having to type again the background rendering

[thick karma]

@sour island

Look at the series of pics

[sour island]

I see that

[thick karma]

They appear rotated 90 degrees off of where they should be for the bladed weapons

The pistol looks all kinds of wonky

[finite radish]

if it were, then the bags would also be attached at the wrong point, because they use the same offset format.

[sour island]

I recall seeing in the java for left hand it just flips the model

I kind of hope they support rotate and shifting in attachment scripts as they do for world attachments

[thick karma]

Right, I see what you're saying. Skizot has a workaround but you're arguing the "proper" fix would be to have left-and-right-hand attachment definitions.

And I am arguing that attaching items to your left hand using code written for your right hand looks "wrong". 😉

And constitutes a "wrong" design

[pulsar heath]

if only i had some popcorns... best debate i've seen so far in this channel 🙂

[sour island]

what would be the right design? a whole new model?

[finite radish]

i agree it looks wrong, that's why you're trying to fix it. it just hasn't been an issue anyone has really had until you brought it up, because people don't tend to equip weapons in their secondary slot (because there's no reason to, other than screwdrivers)

[thick karma]

Any design... where the lefthand item looks correct

I think the code uses left and right hand definitions for holding backpacks e.g. @sour island

That is a perfectly "right" solution afaic

Because it makes things look correct.

My standards are not exactly unattainable

Just want a weapon to be held the same on both sides

Not too crazy lol

Seems p standard to me

[finite radish]

I haven't checked myself, but my theory is that you could fix it one of two ways:

• implement the attachment points like the bags are implemented, and swap them via code
• create a new model with the proper offset and then use that to feed AttachmentType, which replaces the offsets but not the model

[red tiger]

Just because no one brings it up doesn't mean that 1) They know it's right (or wrong), and 2) That it would do something to report it.

I've had problems with bob and kate since 2014.

[finite radish]

I'm just pointing out why it's not really an issue in every normal circumstance

[pulsar heath]

but it is an issue overall

[finite radish]

(because the offhand isn't meant for weapons)

[pulsar heath]

if nobody sees the house on fire its still an issue

[thick karma]

That's fair, and I know that, and I agree with this... I just don't have any need for that information. 😉

[pulsar heath]

and future proofing stuff is always good practice

[thick karma]

I am trying to solve a problem nobody has fixed, and knowing why nobody cares about the problem enough to fix it doesn't help.

[finite radish]

yeah but this is more like... your upstairs windowsill that you can't reach without a ladder is dusty. like yeah, it's a problem! technically! but do most people dust their hard-to-reach windowsills? not usually. might not even see it without a ladder

[pulsar heath]

but you do have a way to dust it

[finite radish]

true!

[pulsar heath]

which is not the case here

[finite radish]

and that's precisely what Burryaga aims to fix

[pulsar heath]

they should at least provide a "ladder"

[sour island]

         if (var14.getPrimaryHandItem() != null) {
            var11 = var14.getPrimaryHandItem();
         } else if (var14.getPrimaryHandMdl() != null) {
            var1.primaryHandModel = this.addStatic(var2, var14.getPrimaryHandMdl(), "Bip01_Prop1");
         }

         var12 = null;
         if (var14.getSecondaryHandItem() != null) {
            var12 = var14.getSecondaryHandItem();
         } else if (var14.getSecondaryHandMdl() != null) {
            var1.secondaryHandModel = this.addStatic(var2, var14.getSecondaryHandMdl(), "Bip01_Prop2");
         }

[thick karma]

No, it's more like if you got to someone's house, and they happened to install their doorhandles backwards, but reality wasn't designed to cope with that, so the door handle was rotated 90 degrees into the door in a way that made no sense.

[sour island]

While I swear I saw the models being rotated this part of the model manager implies the prop2 oreintation is wrong

[pulsar heath]

but im still saying that if the code works for the interaction of the dual wield

[sour island]

as the arguments are identical

[pulsar heath]

you should just manipulate the model

to make it look good

and be done with it

[thick karma]

Exactly what @faint jewel believes.

[finite radish]

if that were the case though, you'd also see incorrect behavior with the bags - but they seem to have their own offset handling

[thick karma]

No @finite radish

Because they have special definitions

[sour island]

bags have models for left and right hands no?

[finite radish]

that's what I just said

[golden sparrow]

actually it's 1,2,3,4 not 0,1,2,3 forgot how lua table works

[finite radish]

do they have separate models? that's a good question

or rather, a good insight, if you already know that to be the case

[red tiger]

I'm lost about this convo because of the desire to compare semantics for the convo itself..

[thick karma]

Sorry, I wasn't clear whether you finished your comment believing "you'd also see incorrect behavior with the bags"

[pulsar heath]

the bags? i dont think so...

[thick karma]

Because you would NOT expect the same problem with bags because there is a custom treatment of the holding of the bags...

[sour island]

        ReplaceInSecondHand = Bag_GolfBag_LHand holdingbagleft,
        ReplaceInPrimaryHand = Bag_GolfBag_RHand holdingbagright,

[red tiger]

I assumed the t-pose of the model would properly transform the 4x4 matrix orientation of items.

[finite radish]

so then rotate prop2. if you're convinced that's the best solution, then I'm not sure why you haven't gone with that already

[faint jewel]

holdingbagleft is an ANIM MASK

not an attachment point.

[thick karma]

I am not saying it's best, I am just discussing what everyone is saying; and it sounds like prop2 would need to be rotated in dozens of animations, which is a bit more work than I feel willing to do for a basic dual wielding mod to look right.

[sour island]

so bags have their own approaches

and the secondary hand attachment is probably rotated wrong

[faint jewel]

if they fixed the rotation of prop2, the extra models wouldn't be necessary

for the bags i mean

[finite radish]

what Skizot said is technically true, but the attachment modification does exist in the scripts:

        {
            offset = 0.8920 -0.1530 -0.0670,
            rotate = -178.0000 -15.0000 100.0000,
            bone = Bip01_R_Hand,
        }

        attachment bighikingbaglefthand
        {
            offset = 0.8790 0.2000 -0.0740,
            rotate = 178.0000 -15.0000 77.0000,
            bone = Bip01_L_Hand,
        }```
which probably corresponds to the models you just showed

[faint jewel]

those are for SPECIFIC BAGS.

[finite radish]

yes, we can see that 🙂

I don't think anyone believes "bighikingbag" is referring to a generic bag

[sour island]

        attachment duffelbagrighthand
        {
            offset = 0.3440 -0.1810 -0.5550,
            rotate = -7.0000 57.0000 77.0000,
            bone = Bip01_R_Hand,
        }

        attachment duffelbaglefthand
        {
            offset = 0.3410 -0.1830 -0.5710,
            rotate = -7.0000 57.0000 77.0000,
            bone = Bip01_L_Hand,
        }

[faint jewel]

you know what. fuck the stress. you are right crater. you are super jesus of PZ. now tell him how to fix it rather than going "you're wrong"

[sour island]

it's not rotated to fit the hand in a way that you think

they're different models

[faint jewel]

if you don't know then stop talking.

[sour island]

entirely

the offsets are adjustments

which is even more baffling

[finite radish]

I've explained how to handle it multiple times

[finite radish]

yeah, it really is. no clue why it's done that way

[faint jewel]

but you don't.

[finite radish]

I don't what?

[faint jewel]

you want him to make a hammer into a bag. the attachment do NOT work that way

[finite radish]

...it's just a model, man. it doesn't care if it's a bag or a hammer or a dildo

[sour island]

is it possible to just change the player's prop2?

[thick karma]

You would have to do it in many animations @sour island

[finite radish]

that's one solution, yeah - that's what Skizot was sugggesting, and it might work fine

at worst you'd have to modify everything that currently uses prop2

[thick karma]

And then you would probably have to undo what they've done with bags

[finite radish]

but it looks like the bags don't even use that bone

[thick karma]

Because presumably the bag fix applied to a fixed prop2 would look wrong

[thick karma]

Well maybe not then idk

[finite radish]

yeah. would be worth testing, at least - but you're right that a bunch of anims may have to be replaced

it depends entirely on how frequently they manually reference prop2 or if they just rely on it being a child bone of the hand bones

[thick karma]

So this isn't used for equipping a backpack???

[finite radish]

because if they only animate the hand bones, then the prop bone should go with it

[thick karma]

This uses prop2, right?

[pulsar heath]

@sour island is it ok for me to piggyback your conditional speech mod for my integration mod and just add a section for the speech on reward redemption? Not feeling very happy to write something that already exists in another mod

[sour island]

so what I gathered from this is that there's models for floor items, models for held items (only some), and bags have models for each hand but weapons use the same model for left/right hand -- but the attachment point is rotated to be mirrored making the models held upside down?

[pulsar heath]

this way ill just add a require to the mod ini and will be done with it

[finite radish]

it could be that the bags are... applied to prop2 by default, but then they're actually reassigned to the hand bones. it's really weird, like from what Chuck was saying - they overwrite the default bag model parameters and replace them with new ones

[sour island]

at that point whatever works works - there's not a right way to do shit lol

[finite radish]

true

[sour island]

I only have experience with using the floor models as weapons in my weapon conversion mod, and there's no way to change the orientation for held models through script

I can tell you that much

So I can atleast save you some time there

[thick karma]

Fair enough

[faint jewel]

the bags are ATTACHED THE THE HAND BONE AND NOT THE PROP.

[thick karma]

Thanks for that tip @sour island

[finite radish]

we just said that skizot

[sour island]

so the hand bones are probably orientated properly

but the bags have different models for left/right

so that point is kind of moot

big hiking bag probably has the same exact model btw- that's why it's orientated inversely

the bag I pasted has the same offset so the difference has to be how the model is itself

[sour island]

not sure why you'd have offsets AND different models :\

[finite radish]

yeah me either tbh

[faint jewel]

the green bone is the hand bone it is good. the red bone is the prop and it's fucking wrong.

[finite radish]

maybe just issues between artist -> programmer

[thick karma]

But you're saying there is no way I could create a custom attachment type and change the rotation of items assigned that type?

[sour island]

and changing the bone's placement will require changing anything that touches prop2?

[finite radish]

at this point I'm starting to think the attachment types are actually just model names - so if you made a new model called HammerLeft you could presumably use it as an attachment type

but I don't know that for certain

[thick karma]

Not its "placement" per se, just its rotation needs to change supposedly.

[sour island]

could be from the changes over time - pixel based to 1.5X etc

[thick karma]

but yeah I assume it could have consequences

If I create a custom attachment type, what string references it?

Module.TypeName?

[sour island]

I haven't tried it recently but I couldn't fix the floor items in hand to sit right

[thick karma]

Module.Sex.TypeName?

Something else entirely?

[finite radish]

hmm? no, you'd need to define a new model, if what I'm thinking is correct

[thick karma]

No worries. I mean if it isn't meant to be, it's cool. There are other mods. But if I can't fix the direction of blades, I'm probably good on doing dual wielding.

[finite radish]

do me a favor, try modifying the world attachment point (on the Hammer model) rotation to see if that actually changes anything

not at a PC where I can test that atm, but it's worth a shot

[sour island]

it does - changes how it looks on the floor

[finite radish]

yeah, that's what I assumed at first, but I wasn't sure if it was recycling those values for attachment as well

[sour island]

but some of the items have different models for world attachment and in hand

[thick karma]

Trying it.

No apparent change when equipped.

[sour island]

some of the world models are held upside down

so atleast it's not that bad

[thick karma]

lol yeah but it looks pretty wonktastic

By the end of the swing it looks like I'm hitting myself.

[red tiger]

You think that you could transform the item's matrix4 by grabbing the rest-pose matrix from the source art in TIS's database.

Like get the rest orientation and then add that in code.

It would fix this problem.

[thick karma]

in what code?

[red tiger]

The engine itself.

So Java.

[faint jewel]

just need to have it rotate the model by 90 degrees after it's attached.

[thick karma]

Ohhhhhh

Yeah

[finite radish]

@thick karma okay so all the bullshit in the past however long aside, if that doesn't work, I think this is the best option:
no fucking with models or scripts, just do it via lua
just use OnEquipSecondary, take the passed item, use item:getStaticModel() (probably) to get the model name, and then use that to get the model object and rotate it

[thick karma]

I figure this would be easily solved Java-side

[faint jewel]

and it ONLY Need the prop2 definition one, as all the other shit uses the hand bone.

[thick karma]

You can rotate the model object in your hands after you have it equipped?

[faint jewel]

THIS is useful and could work.

yeah

[thick karma]

Whaaaat?

[faint jewel]

YEAH YEAH... THIS COULD WORK!

[finite radish]

maybe. it's worth a shot

[red tiger]

I don't get why manual rotations are needed to simply attach a child bone to the hand bones.

[finite radish]

I don't know what table/func you'll need to plug the model string into to actually get a model object, but I know one exists. from there it's just a matter of there being a rotate/transform function, or a directly usable field

[red tiger]

The goal would be to not need to define for both hands, correct?

[finite radish]

because it's not the attachment, it's the rotation of the model after it's attached.

[faint jewel]

it's because when the player model was first made they didn't PLAN on dual weidling and didn't think that they needed to rotate the offhand bone. YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO RATOE THE OFFHAND if you wanna use the same model at least.

[finite radish]

the vanilla game solves it by making a new model with a different transform, but that's a pain in the ass. it's an option if the lua route doesn't work though

[faint jewel]

and they chose to write a bunch of arbitrary code to fix it, when rotating that one bone and reexporting all the anims is all that would really be needed.

[red tiger]

I expect a fix for this to be on the TODO list for TIS's render team.

The question is priority.

If they're to have animal models for 42, items will need attachment options for those models too..

So maybe 42 will have a fix? 🤞

[thick karma]

I can get the model name but I don't see a function for getting the actual object or rotating it... still looking of course.

[drifting ore]

hi guys I want to try designing maps.. how do I go about it?
I messed around with cheat mods but looking at the work other people do (the scale and quality) there is definitely a easier way... is it a application/engine? appreciate some noob friendly advice.

[thick karma]

#mapping @drifting ore

[drifting ore]

I'm blind. thanks man

[thick karma]

No worries.

If I knew more details I would provide them

Not my thing.

[red tiger]

It's freezing outside and the streets are now glass from sleet / frozen rain / ice. I need a drink.

[dark wedge]

I fixed the Offhand weapon rotation in my mod Fancy Handwork already btw. I applied a lefthandmask animation that corrects the rotation

[thick karma]

@finite radish @faint jewel !

[faint jewel]

i knew it was a mod i had dealt with recently.

i was looking for it too

which mask @dark wedge ?

FHholdingitemleft?

[hot patrol]

@thick karma you making an off hand attacking mod or something? Been dying for a good one to use with the amputation mod

[faint jewel]

burry, i suggest making fancy handiwork a requirement lol.

[dark wedge]

That, and FHholdinggunleft.
The lefthandmask actions fix guns and item rotations, righthandmask fixes the weapon wobble when you walk

[faint jewel]

so does your mod work for all 1handed items?

even custom ones?

[dark wedge]

Yup

[faint jewel]

bingo.

there's your fix burry

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2904920097

require that.

[thick karma]

@faint jewel I just subbed

[thick karma]

I am thinking about it updating an old one, yeah. I was discouraged by the bad orientation of the offhand, but it seems @dark wedge (who is ALSO apparently working on a dual wielding mod) already fixed that.

[hot patrol]

yes I am excited to see his work on that as well. If I could make a suggestion to both of you make it work similar to this mod here https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2727440840 Danger zone is fine and all but I love how this mod gave me more control over my offhand attack by just having it replace the push

duel weilding and a solid amputation mod are easily on the top of my mod want list.

so I always have my eyes out for one

[thick karma]

I am actually working on a version that doesn't overwrite shove OR use OgreLeg style combos... lets you offhand with L1 instead of L2. So you can still shove.

[finite radish]

I was just doing some looking, be thankful that dhert did it via anims lmao. if you wanted to do the "pure lua" fix we were looking into, it'd be... a lot of work. there's calls to private java code via an exposed accessor that only exists on the UI scene so you'd essentially have to do some UI modding and make an invisible dummy UI element, then use that to get access to the accessor functions, which would then allow you to rotate a model

[thick karma]

Yeah praise be to dhert!

[finite radish]

[thick karma]

Here's how @dark wedge made it look... nice work!

[late hound]

you are so funny

[red tiger]

Talking about it more raises the possibility of it happening. <3

[finite radish]

i think if that logic held up, we'd have NPCs by now :~)

[thick karma]

This is true. Devs are less likely to prioritize stuff no one is complaining about.

[red tiger]

He said the forbidden word.

(runs away)

[finite radish]

something something laptop hotel room something

[thick karma]

On the other hand, if people didn't routinely beg for NPCs, we would probably never see them.

[finite radish]

[thick karma]

Not like they would take on that kind of labor if we didn't want them.

[hot patrol]

Sounds great!

[red tiger]

How'd you know?

[finite radish]

:~)

[red tiger]

Was actually there last weekend lol

I've actually PZ-modded a couple times in those.

Good stuff.

[finite radish]

is there any demand for a properly typed and OOP-featured class system? like would anyone actually use it over ISBaseObject? also no, I don't mean in Typescript, Jab

[red tiger]

There is.

Well my solution literally does just that.

It's one example of implementing that level of abstract Lua code as OOP.

I didn't write it either. It's actually TSTL that did it.

I know that @drifting stump Is going hard on his OOP solution atm.

[finite radish]

same though, purely with lua

I've got a lot of really neat stuff set up. static functions/fields, accessors for properties, sealed classes, etc.

[red tiger]

I'd argue that it will be more work to implement this in a language that doesn't come packaged with syntax support / sugar for these structures.

[finite radish]

the only work is in implementing it, more or less. from there it's fairly straightforward

[red tiger]

I scale things like typing some extra code to implement something as simple with countless implementations in a scaled codebase.

Like.. maybe 5-10 seconds to set it up, multiplied by thousands of times.

For small projects? You're correct.

For engines and code bases scaling hundreds of containers? Oh boy.

[finite radish]

that last part is precisely what I'm addressing though.

[red tiger]

If something were to change to fix a bug or improve the implementation, all of that code would need to be changed too.

I'm clarifying some of the caveats with that approach.

[finite radish]

with my approach, it won't be an issue - encapsulation was the goal, and I've achieved it

[red tiger]

If it's a personal tool then sure. If it works for you, then it's good.

Giving some insight as an architect.

[finite radish]

it'd work for anyone who wants to use it, I'm building it as a library

I'm going to try to have interop with ISBaseObject as well as java objects (to some degree) as well, but that's not a priority atm

[red tiger]

You can't extend Java objects in Kahlua.

You can only wrap them.

You'd have to do some boilerplate to make this solution of yours somewhat seamless, or less cumbersome to uninformed coders.

[finite radish]

that's more or less what I meant - as it stands, the Java objects have little restrictions and you can do silly things with them that break your code entirely. plus, you can't iterate over them with pairs (and I may not be able to fix that easily since __pairs is 5.3+ I think, but I can do a manual implementation without too much trouble)

[finite radish]

yeah, that's the goal - I'm doing a lot of the heavy lifting and the end result is going to be easy/readable at a glance without needing to know what's happening in the guts. lots of error endpoints as well

I'm more or less writing "safe" Lua, with C# and Rust as inspiration (despite Lua not needing to be thread safe, because threads aren't a thing, but it saves a lot of bugfixing headaches and you waste a lot less time, and it's overall cleaner)

[red tiger]

It does make me curious as to why you'd reject (At least in this project), the type-safety and OOP syntax of Typescript, something that is already provided and ready to use.

It's not me trying to force some standard, rather just asking the purpose of writing your own.

Is it to avoid compilation?

I'm trying to avoid re-inventing the wheel in my situation.

[finite radish]

sorta? it's more like adding another layer (or as many as three layers, since you've mentioned HTML and CSS for UI) to the already extant clusterfuck that is Java->Kahlua->IS-OOP->regular Lua... doesn't sound like fun, for anyone really

[red tiger]

Maybe I don't quite understand your goals, concerns, and interests.

[red tiger]

The project you mentioned is an example. It is not forced on anyone to use as part of the Typescript environment.. (More like a plugin / library of its own). Assuming it wouldn't be fun is a concern.

A lot of people have come to my discord org server over the past half year discussing how fun it was coding in a language like TS (which some knew more than Lua)

[finite radish]

goals: actual OOP that doesn't suck
concerns: the current OOP that PZ uses is dogshit, and barely qualifies as OOP since it breaks encapsulation and allows you to play fast and loose with access
interests: forcing Lua tables into acting like C# classes and providing "safety measures" to make sure you don't step out of those restrictions, because doing so will result in worse code

[red tiger]

I agree that ISBaseObject is a little too simple, however without the language.

[finite radish]

sure, but you aren't just coding in TS - if you really want to know what you're doing you'd need an understanding of TS, Lua, and Java

don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your idea is bad, it's pretty awesome and it's a good option

I'm just making another one along similar premises

[red tiger]

The goal is actually to mitigate this wall that gets in the way of people. You are assuming way too much about how things work here.

[red tiger]

Yes and thanks for clarifying that.

All tools are options for people to do what they want.

I wouldn't have spent a month adding in generated documentation for Java's method-signature confusion for Lua if I didn't have the goal of simplification of the discovery and implementation process of PZ's API in mind.

... And the few months it took to perfect resolving generic types for classes, methods, fields, and parameters.

Lua is walking in the dark in many ways. Your tool would allow for people to stay on a path.

It will help people for sure.

[tame mulch]

(HERE) How do you think, what will be best example of creating mod for beginners? I want explain in it about adding new item, new recipe and some lua functional

[sour island]

multiple consistent approaches

[red tiger]

Is this only for in Lua?

[sour island]

example download, article, video

[red tiger]

I'd use a wiki page and maybe a video as two examples.

[tame mulch]

I mean what include in this mod? (P.S. I will do text version on wiki + video)

[red tiger]

Ah. There's probably a fair few people here who stream modding for PZ that could maybe help with the video part if they're willing

[tame mulch]

For typeScript will be another guides (for advanced level)

[sour island]

I guess adding a new item would be a good step

[red tiger]

Aww haha oh no. I can help with that ofc and that's not as advanced as you may think. 😉

[sour island]

You could make it a series - add in a variant of a current item - at least visually, then increase the intensity - new recipes, to new features

[red tiger]

PZ modding for dummies

I can get behind that

[sour island]

scripts and recipecode alone is a rabbithole

especially when you get to doParam and scriptManager

[red tiger]

(Runs away and writes a UI program to aid in scripts like I promised 6 months ago)

__>

[sour island]

making that item a weapon / clothing can be an offshoot series

[red tiger]

Maybe we could figure out categories for this series)

[sour island]

I made a weird discovery with EHE that makes me both excited but confused

I also feel like I've been going in circles

but code in the /server/ folder normally shows up in console.txt and isClient()==true

[tame mulch]

Try test on dedicated server

[sour island]

Does dedicate operate differently to hosting from the main menu?

[pulsar heath]

i can check on my dedicated logs if you want to

or i can just send them to you

[sour island]

cause I used 'sendClientCommand' with twitch integration and the code then fires in co-op console and isServer==true

[tame mulch]

Try check logs on player, that connected to your host

[sour island]

This is from hosting from the main menu - that's where the prints go

I have all the helicopter events in /server/ as I assumed it would be serverside

and it should be updating clients along the way

This doesn't seem to be the case - and instead the events and scheduling is done on the client's 'server'

[tame mulch]

I think, if you host, on your PC runs client+server, so this log is shows

[drifting stump]

im sure crater knows better than the lua devs themselves and if the approach theyre taking is manually declaring each public field/method then its not a good approach too much boilerplate

[sour island]

there are logs for co-op (server) and the regular console (client)

[drifting stump]

plus it doesnt inherit changes down the road to super classes

[sour island]

I'm just not sure how to make it so the system is occurring on the true server where isServer()==true

[tame mulch]

Can you send code, that you use for check?

[sour island]

I can try to build an example for testing

[drifting stump]

im only taking this long getting it done simply because its not easy to design it in a way that is simple to code with, document and extend

[finite radish]

lmao what? I'm using features the Lua devs created for this purpose exactly, I don't recall saying I was somehow "better" than the Lua devs. nor would I, since that statement doesn't really make any sense

[drifting stump]

you keep saying how terrible the "tis oop" is

they literally copy pasted from the lua docs

[finite radish]

that's an example

do you only use code that's on the Lua docs?

[humble oriole]

I'm having trouble with some sandboxVars, when I try to use them when building a table they're just getting the default, but if I call them later they're showing the saved value. Do I need to init the sandbox vars so it gets the saved values?

[drifting stump]

sandboxvars are initialized during loading so any code that runs before that wont have access to the correct values

theres an event that is triggered after they are loaded

[tawdry moss]

Making a mod that uses the MP chat to spawn things.

chatMessage:getAuthor() returns a string with the name of the person that sent the message, rather than the actual player entity that sent the message. How can I get the correct player entity from the username? I tried local sender = getPlayerByUsername(chatMessage:getAuthor()) but it didn’t save properly. Any idea what I’m doing wrong?

[sour island]

My test doesn't have any issues - so I guess there's something janky going on my end

nvm spoke too soon

LOG  : General     , 1675275913647> 11,857,015,738> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST]    TEST:    11    EveryTenMinutes    isServer():false    isClient():true

From console

LOG  : General     , 1675275888598> 11,856,990,690> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST]    TEST:    91    EveryTenMinutes    isServer():true    isClient():false

This is code sitting in /server/

so clients are executing their own copy of server code?

the number of test counts the number of times the print message is sent out too

I set it to send commands when moving

[tawdry moss]

Right now, it just sets the target player on fire so I can make sure it’s getting the right player as the target. When I get the ID code working, I’ll change the effects.

[bronze yoke]

just preface your file with if isClient() then return end

[sour island]

Yes, will be doing so

[polar thicket]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/336601093188354068/1070410053061972049/20230201191547_1.jpg

[sour island]

just kind of confused why this is a normal behavior

I wonder if the opposite is true for server and /client/ ?

[bronze yoke]

it's not

server runs on the client but client doesn't run on the server, thankfully

[sour island]

so all this time I was writing EHE thinking it was server side

[bronze yoke]

oh man...

[sour island]

fortunately the server side events broke cause the gamespeed is 0

but this means every event was sort of clientside sending other clients marker/sound updates

[red tiger]

[finite radish]

just from a brief look, it seems like the update loop of GameTime has lots of sections and most of them are conditioned behind bClient or bServer, but the branch that actually calls LuaEventManager.triggerEvent("EveryTenMinutes"); isn't - so the event triggers both on client and server instances

[sour island]

what about onTick?

[bronze yoke]

it's a pretty weird trap, i wonder if the server folder actually did behave as expected in an older version or something?

[sour island]

afaik the old MP was all leveraged off of the host server

the new peer-to-peer stuff might have caused the discrepancy

[bronze yoke]

i think all the time events do run on the server

[red tiger]

@bronze yoke Not likely. I think this client-server-shared is an attempt to sanitize server-specific code but ultimately was delayed indefinitely due to something not working right (My guess)

[bronze yoke]

yeah i thought it could be something like that too

[red tiger]

Probably something that didn't pan out or caused too much trouble for the devs.

I'm making this guess because of how the Java code is.

[bronze yoke]

the java code

[sour island]

so as long as I prevent the scheduler from firing on isClient()==true all I should have to worry about is relaying updated positions/sounds to players

I think this meant every player had their own scheduler going

[red tiger]

I'd expect those API flags to be consistent with what anyone would expect them to be: simple yes / no.

[finite radish]

looks like it's also both

[red tiger]

I've seen this behavior before.

Maybe we could make additional API to give the expected result with additional checks under the hood.

[sour island]

is OnTick timed differently between server and client?

[finite radish]

it's tied to processor capability, so yes - it's even different between clients

[red tiger]

I'm surprised that OnTick doesn't send a delta long value.

[sour island]

but I am both

. _ .

this is counter+1'ing each ontick

[finite radish]

it sends a delta, but it's just an integer iirc. basically a frame counter since the gameloop and render loop aren't completely divorced

[sour island]

My server is a fair bit slower

[bronze yoke]

excuse me if i'm literally just making stuff up LOL but i think it might be at a set, typically lower frequency on the server?

[finite radish]

could be. lots of dedicated servers for other games use a fixed tickrate parameter

[bronze yoke]

i remember observing exactly the same thing and i remember someone mentioning something about it to me but i don't remember what the explanation for it was

[sour island]

let me check the java I guess

[red tiger]

In Lua you'll never need to handle the render thread. Even UI's render hook runs in the Lua main thread.

TIS uses their SpriteRender.instance to cache draw calls for the next available render-thread context.

[finite radish]

I don't think that's the case, is it? render() and update() would be identical, otherwise, making one of them redundant

[bronze yoke]

they run on different ticks but in the same thread

[red tiger]

I know this for certain. I'm modding the render engine.

[finite radish]

i mean yeah, everything runs on the same thread - it has to

[bronze yoke]

that's what the ui update rate option is about

[red tiger]

It is redundant in the way you're looking at it.

[red tiger]

Not entirely. It's how TIS implemented it though.

[finite radish]

Kahlua can't run across threads, so TIS didn't really have an option (without dropping Kahlua)

[red tiger]

Kahlua supports multi-threaded environments. TIS chose not to use this feature.

[finite radish]

since when?

[red tiger]

I don't know.. I read the code I guess?

[finite radish]

I just recently looked at the docs and they specifically state you shouldn't do that

[bronze yoke]

i'd read on kahlua's site- yeah

[finite radish]

like, ever

are you getting it confused with coroutine? because that has nothing to do with threading

[red tiger]

They have the option.

[finite radish]

they don't though

not with Kahlua

[tawdry moss]

Making a mod that uses the MP chat to spawn things.

chatMessage:getAuthor() returns a string with the name of the person that sent the message, rather than the actual player entity that sent the message. How can I get the correct player entity from the username? I tried local sender = getPlayerByUsername(chatMessage:getAuthor()) but it didn’t save properly. Any idea what I’m doing wrong?

[red tiger]

Haha okay buddy.

[finite radish]

from the horse's mouth

[bronze yoke]

it didn't save properly? what do you mean?

[red tiger]

You can't execute the same Lua environment in two threads. You can execute different Lua in different threads.

[tawdry moss]

In the debug error menu, it’s saying that the author and tab of the chat are saving properly, but the variable “sender” isn’t anywhere to be found. Then the error runs when I try to do a thing involving the “sender” variable

[finite radish]

...which would be pointless, because the state is entirely independent. without parallel interaction (or at least an interrupt call of some sort) it'd be effectively useless to pretty much everyone

[bronze yoke]

getAuthor() probably isn't returning a username

it might be a character name or something

[tawdry moss]

It’s returning “pieandcheese647” when I use it on a private server

[drifting stump]

additional note on the update vs render
update is triggered every 100ms
render is triggered every ui frame

[tawdry moss]

Not character name

[red tiger]

I don't get what going on about this helps anyone. I don't care about being right about this, even technically. It's how TIS implemented it that matters.

Some people need to know that it's the same thread on execution for update() and render() because they could have a proper background of coding games.

There's a underlying assumption on either side that can hurt both parties.

[bronze yoke]

use getPlayerFromUsername()

[red tiger]

tbh fuck all that technicality bs.

[tawdry moss]

I am doing that

[bronze yoke]

you're using getPlayerByUsername

[finite radish]

I don't really care about being right for my own sake, I'm just trying to point out that it's not some arbitrary decision by TIS that somehow kept us from, in case anyone eventually reads this and thinks it's somehow something that the devs could/would change (and it isn't, for the above reasons)

[tawdry moss]

Oh

Hah

Thanks

[red tiger]

Ok.

[sour island]

wait this means my events will be much slower if I use OnTick serverside...

'EveryOneMinute' seems to not have the same issue but that's still pretty slow

[finite radish]

where'd you find the 100ms bit? that's interesting, kinda wanna take a look at the guts

[drifting stump]

from testing

and its triggered by the games main loop

[finite radish]

was it exactly 100ms? because I think tickrate is dependent on the client's processing power

but if it was a nice even 100ms every time then you're probably right

interesting, that makes sense

[drifting stump]

it was triggered 10 times per second independently of any other fps setting

[finite radish]

oh, hmm

per game second, or OS second?

[drifting stump]

ui uncapped, capped at whatever amount, game fps uncapped or capped

[bronze yoke]

10 times per game second 😟

a game second is VERY short you know

[finite radish]

ikr lol

[drifting stump]

irl time

[red tiger]

Isn't UPS for PZ targeting 30 or 50?

[finite radish]

browser was just talking about the UI update(), not sure if the main game loop has a target/cap/etc.

I would imagine it runs uncapped, and just uses a state machine to manage event timing

[red tiger]

It's very bad to not target a UPS rate. It's fine to implement both locked and unlocked FPS.

[finite radish]

why's that bad?

if your main loop is detached from game logic, that's usually a good practice actually. it's only in older games where you see the opposite

[red tiger]

Game logic without a rate of ticks (or managed delta time values passed in tick), can cause an array of issues that may even give players an advantage in multiplayer games.

[finite radish]

not if the state is managed, which it should be in every case

[red tiger]

Artifacts and time-based components can give way to complex bugs.

[finite radish]

I think you've got it backwards, those are issues when you tie logic to the loop - because if the CPU (it's not always the CPU, but just for example) can't keep up with the instructions, your logic is now executing behind schedule instead of skipping updates to the correct position

[red tiger]

Simple applications are fine. They typically sleep the thread which is a form of capping UPS.

[red tiger]

Hey. I'm going to block you because I don't like being talked down to. Have a good one.

[finite radish]

I wasn't talking down to you, but okay!

[wraith dew]

Hello. How to prevent player build thing on sand terrain type ?

[ancient grail]

You have to hook to the vanilla build fuctions and add a check if the grounds tile is part of an array you make fontianung all the various sand floor tiles

[polar thicket]

The windturbine requires an alternator part to be installed. Said part for now requires spare engine parts to be made as you (extract) the alternator from a car engine. And repurpose whatever scrap is left for the turbine. This way the windturbines wont be as easily made. You need to sacrifice car engine parts to make a single one

[sour island]

anyone know how to resolve the fact OnTick is timed differently if there's a way to confirm by how much?

weirdly enough OnTickEvenPaused seems to be the same speed as OnTick in client

both OnTick and OnTickEvenPaused are faster on client

which I find strange

the name implies they should be the same and OnTick should just be paused when the game is paused

[faint jewel]

I wish we could read ACTUAL time correctly.

i wanna take a number of tiles, add that to the start time as seconds and get a NEW time that should be my completion time.

[sour island]

nvm I think it was my imagination

LOG : General , 1675280689849> 0> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST] TEST: 275 OnTickEvenPaused isServer():false isClient():false
LOG : General , 1675280689851> 0> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST] TEST: 275 OnTick isServer():false isClient():false
LOG : General , 1675280689866> 0> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST] TEST: 276 OnTickEvenPaused isServer():false isClient():false
LOG : General , 1675280689869> 0> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST] TEST: 276 OnTick isServer():false isClient():false
LOG : General , 1675280689882> 0> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST] TEST: 277 OnTickEvenPaused isServer():false isClient():false
LOG : General , 1675280689885> 0> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST] TEST: 277 OnTick isServer():false isClient():false
LOG : General , 1675280689900> 0> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST] TEST: 278 OnTickEvenPaused isServer():false isClient():false
LOG : General , 1675280689902> 0> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST] TEST: 278 OnTick isServer():false isClient():false

added a counter per ID

[faint jewel]

lol

[sour island]

that's in SP let me check in MP

LOG >> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST]    TEST:    331    OnTickEvenPaused    isServer():false    isClient():true
LOG >> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST]    TEST:    331    OnTick    isServer():false    isClient():true

LOG >> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST]    TEST:    318    OnTickEvenPaused    isServer():true    isClient():false
LOG >> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST]    TEST:    49    OnTick    isServer():true    isClient():false

it is a bit slower

but not actually that far off

LOG >> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST]    TEST:    1493    OnTickEvenPaused    isServer():true    isClient():false
LOG >> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST]    TEST:    1224    OnTick    isServer():true    isClient():false

sir?

LOG >> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST]    TEST:    7378    OnTickEvenPaused    isServer():false    isClient():true
LOG >> [CLIENT_SERVER_TEST]    TEST:    7378    OnTick    isServer():false    isClient():true

so they're the same speed it's just that the server has a paused moment

so the times ran is about 2-300 off

[finite radish]

i see you got the counter method working, but if you want a different method you could use os.time. might even allow you to measure the length of a tick, I think it goes out for a good number of decimal places. I'm still thinking ticks vary between machines rather than being some sort of fixed/target value, but I don't know that for sure

[bronze yoke]

i'm pretty sure there's a target myself

[finite radish]

where have you seen it? I've been looking a little bit but not very focused on it atm

def curious to figure it out if there is one

[bronze yoke]

i didn't run any tests but it seemed apparent when i was working on one of my mods, and i'm almost certain there is a lower tick rate for servers

[finite radish]

i believe the tickrate for servers thing, that'd make sense

[polar thicket]

We are having an issue where this code does not seem to update ingame. Or is unable to grab the wind value. Anyone can make a guess why?

    local modData = generator:getModData()
    modData.wind = 50 --climateManager.ClimateFloat.windIntensity * 100
    generator:transmitModData()
end

local function OnClimateTick(climateManager)
    for k,_ in pairs(AllWindTurbines) do
        if k:getModData().wind then
            if k:isActivated() then
                CheckWindLevelAndSetTurbineSpeed(k)
                CheckAndUpdateSprite(k)
            end
        else
            AllWindTurbines[k] = nil
        end
    end
end

--Events.OnClimateTick.Add(OnClimateTick)

Events.EveryTenMinutes.Add(OnClimateTick

Also should this be in the server lua folder?

[little holly]

important to note is that this is based on code from the steam powered generator lol, I'm still trying to figure out the context and how everything even runs in the game, I'm somewhat regretting basing it on an existing mod, but the docs are hard to parse because it's either outdated or not describing what I need to know >u> slowly getting there though

that AllWindTurbines array is being updated further up with

    object = instanceof(object, 'IsoGenerator') and object or ReplaceExistingObject(object, 0, 100)
    AllWindTurbines[object] = true
end

local function LoadWindTurbine(object)
    AllWindTurbines[object] = true
end

but I have no idea if the game runs that automatically or something is supposed to get hooked somewhere first

[sour island]

The counter is just counting the event firing - not really useful, but I suppose OnTick is fine even when it's slow for servers depending on how it's used

[finite radish]

when you add OnClimateTick, you're passing a function that takes an argument (climateManager) which won't work in that format. that might not be what's causing the issue, but I figured I'd point that out (you also don't use that parameter in the function, so you can just get rid of it)

[little holly]

yea I'm still trying to figure out why it's not updating the value in the game at all

it's not setting the value to 50, so the array is probably not updated, though the functions do seem to be hooked further down below:

    if instanceof(isoObject, 'IsoGenerator')then
        NewWindTurbine(isoObject)
    end
end)

Events.OnObjectAboutToBeRemoved.Add(function(isoObject)
    AllWindTurbines[isoObject] = nil
end)

[fast galleon]

this will break immersive solar arrays

[little holly]

oh?

[fast galleon]

please check sprite

[little holly]

I'm reusing code from the steampowered generator so I guess that'd also break ISA

[bronze yoke]

is the moddata initialised somewhere?

you only set the wind moddata after checking if it already exists

[polar thicket]

We changed the water.moddata thingy

[little holly]

I think it is, the parameter is always showing when the generator runs

[polar thicket]

we renamed it throughout whole code to reuse that

^^

[fast galleon]

    if instanceof(isoObject, 'IsoGenerator') and isoObject:getTextureName() == "windturbine___" then
        NewWindTurbine(isoObject)
    end

[little holly]

yea it's what used to be the water parameter, I figured that was already plumbed through the whole stack so I could just reuse that

[little holly]

thanks I'll replace it with that!

done

[fast galleon]

it's not exactly break, just that it includes any generator

[little holly]

yea very fair

it's just reusing the steampowered generator code so it may be an issue in there too then

[bronze yoke]

do you have permission to use that mod's code?

[fast galleon]

MapObjects.OnLoadWithSprite("solarmod_tileset_01_0", LoadPowerbank, 5)

[polar thicket]

If we could get the "pure" code absolutely needed to make the normal generator work that would be the most helpfull basis of our code I think

we mainly based it of another mod because we dont know what is exactly needed just to make a standard generator work

[fast galleon]

you need MapObjects to trigger those commands

[polar thicket]

Ive made a tileset that works

and it picks up and behaves like a normal generator after being crafted

just with our visuals

rightclicking it indicates that it is our windturbine

[finite radish]

did more digging, looks like OnTick runs unfettered without limits as long as your game settings are set to uncapped FPS. otherwise it does some division based on the Java master clock to determine when ticks should fire

still not sure how that applies to servers, but may be worth knowing. also, OnTickEvenPaused runs even when the actual game world isn't loaded, aka it'll run in the menus and whatnot

[polar thicket]

the generator info window also says our values like "wind %"

[little holly]

I- not necessarily, this was still a learning thing and I figured that throughout the process we'd replace everything, but it's more involved than I thought it would be, if it ends up actually being the base for the final mod then I'll definitely contact the author, but I'm not sure about that yet because the steampowered generator mod seems to do a lot of unnecessary things we might be able to skip, I just don't know what is and what isn't necessary yet

[polar thicket]

This mainly why we would like documentation or the exact lua codes needed to make a vanilla generator mod so we can build off of that before we release the mod

[bronze yoke]

oh, i suppose if you're not planning to release the mod in that state it's fine

[sour island]

what the scheduler does is run on tick but checks the in-game hour to pass events - skips the process if the hour matches a stored value

[little holly]

it's more about trying to get something that works, and then once we do we can redo it in a more clean way

[sour island]

so I think I'm fine even if the rate is drastically different

[polar thicket]

we have no idea right now how we can extract and just make a mod that adds a "copy" of the original generator just with different item names and recipes

and tiles

[little holly]

I just have no idea what to even do to make it work, it still seems like voodoo

I get the hooking of events and all but I don't really know what's loaded when and how and why and what's really needed and what isn't etc

[sour island]

but I can see something like this causing alot of issues for people trying to sync a mod between MP/SP

[polar thicket]

If we got this we would obviously build our mod off of that instead

[bronze yoke]

generator mods are one of the more complicated kinds of mods

[little holly]

the way the steampowered generator seems to communicate from the client to the server is like it's relying om some kind of message bus but I don't really know where to find that in the docs at all

[finite radish]

where'd you find this? I didn't see that at all in the main game loop

also might be worth checking out OnRenderTick, which would be wild if it runs on the server

[little holly]

and how it differentiates between the server and client is like 'if client then return'? I think? or does the file structure actually matter?

[polar thicket]

Is there any way we could get the exact lua codes the standard generator uses?

[finite radish]

yeah, just look at the file

it's not hidden or anything

[polar thicket]

which file?

I know its not hidden

we just dont know what files

[fast galleon]

@little holly
the way you're storing the objects might cause issues later
you store an object but the square might be unloaded, then another object will be added which is technically same object on map (but different userdata object).

[sour island]

the scheduler I refer to is for EHE - it's my own - also I checked on render tick and it does the same thing just all at different rates

[little holly]

what's the consensus on this? how do people normally create MP frameworks that work? what's a good example to use?

[polar thicket]

@little holly anthropy I think the best cause of action is possibly to just throw out our current luas and use make a fresh start code purely based on the original generator in the game and modify/add on that.

[little holly]

like I kinda tried to use the steampowered generator to learn how to do these things but from what I gathered they have their own share of bugs

[polar thicket]

That could include multiplayer parts as well

the most basic stuff

[finite radish]

MOGenerator.lua

[little holly]

sure but that'd require me to understand what is required in the first place

[polar thicket]

The original generator.lua

[finite radish]

it'll help you guys to set up a VSCode workspace with the vanilla lua files loaded so you can ctrl+shift+F to find stuff, like all instances of IsoGenerator

[polar thicket]

Thank you

[fast galleon]

vanilla has improved syncing of default generators this year

[polar thicket]

^^

This is why we want to build from the original generator in the game

that way we dont infringe anyone elses mod either

we are basically just looking at mods for reference to understand. Never intended to directly use anything

[little holly]

I don't know if it's enough but we can try sure

[polar thicket]

all art assets are made for our mod. We only lack the code part

[little holly]

that helps

I'll try use the vanilla luas and see how far we can get

[polar thicket]

Anthropy Ive made backups of our current state of the "non releasable" mod so it is safe if you remove all the old LUAs

but keep the scripts I made and art

those are original

[little holly]

this is why git is useful, the first version was a fantasy from chatgpt that had no chance of ever working at all :P

[polar thicket]

those that makes the recipes work

[little holly]

you don't have to keep backups thanks to git

[polar thicket]

ah ok

Remove all the luas and lua folders

[little holly]

that looks interesting

[polar thicket]

We have to keep our namings tho

[finite radish]

it's not going to be easy without taking a look at IsoGenerator in the java. and even then, you might find that the parts of that class that you need to access are private, which means they're immutable more or less (but you might be able to re-implement some of the logic in Lua)

[little holly]

just make sure to keep the files we do need, but lets discuss that in private

[finite radish]

if you're just starting out though, this is going to be a nearly impossible first project

[sour island]

it's several jets stuck in a loop

not sure why that's happening now

[polar thicket]

Why tho?

[finite radish]

oh okay, that makes more sense. I was like "scheduler? ticks referencing the in-game hour? huh" but I wasn't thinking

[polar thicket]

We are getting the hand on how certain things work already

[fast galleon]

"this year", should be "last year"

[polar thicket]

Like we have made the art assets function that I made from scratch and the recipes and items. And it behaves like the normal generator inventory and world wise...

[finite radish]

because it's going to to take a lot of interop between the lua and the java class to make it work properly, and if you're brand new then you probably aren't familiar with that (unless you're coming from something like GLua or Roblox, but even then you need some Java knowledge and some general understanding of the quirks of Kahlua)

[little holly]

that's fine I like steep learning curves as long as the projects are meaningful, I don't like making a colorful box mod and then a colorful storage box and then then a colorful storagebox that repels zombies etc, I like just working on something that I'd actually use :P

[little holly]

fair though!

[finite radish]

https://github.com/FWolfe/Zomboid-Modding-Guide/blob/master/api/README.md
this'll help with some of the more esoteric stuff

good luck 🫡

[little holly]

I like to think I'm somewhat decent with code but- ahh yea that'll help

[bronze yoke]

this is a pretty crazy first mod

[polar thicket]

We like crazy. This is what we both have wanted the most in the game for a while now

[little holly]

trying to find any pioneering work already done and the expectations from the APIs and game itself seems a bit.. well hard to find in the rest of the game's help wikis because it's a very skill based game to begin with heh

[little holly]

this is neat though

[finite radish]

it's a clusterfuck even once you understand it, honestly

sooner or later you get a bit faster at navigating stuff, but none of it is intuitive

[little holly]

yea games are like that, that's okay

[bronze yoke]

it's difficult to call it a modding api

[finite radish]

it's like a modding allowance

[bronze yoke]

it's more like they exposed a bunch of methods and went 'good luck!'

[little holly]

I think I'm just going to start with the vanilla generator and modifying that to have static fuel levels, and then something wind based, or something along those lines

[finite radish]

like "here's a few exposed guts, good luck putting them together. here's a handful of examples, oh and we did all the UI stuff for you so there's that, but otherwise get fucked lmao"

[little holly]

yea I've seen that in some games, and honestly it's better than games where they don't expose anything at all, but it can be a jungle to navigate heh, especially with the game changing over time and the docs that DO get created, inevitably aging

[polar thicket]

At least this game has helpfull debugging tools

[little holly]

but I've gotten this far and I'm sure I can make something

[polar thicket]

Picking apart the steamgen mod teached us a lot

[sour island]

when spawning items/zombies/vehicles for MP the recommended way is to send a command to all clients right?

[polar thicket]

we did it only for educational reasons

[finite radish]

definitely. you're off to a decent start

[little holly]

also yes, there's games like stationeers where as much as I love the game, I cannot make actual functional mods because they just don't expose anything, if you ask around a lot some people will tell you that you can decompile the game with a C# decompiler because it's not obfuscated, and you can technically override parts of it :P but yea that's a bit too far out for me

thanks! if you're curious we're keeping this place here as project page https://git.dragonhive.net/anthropy-zefnoly-collabs/zomboid/windturbines

[finite radish]

is that how it does it? I assumed that it's spawned on the server, and then there's a broadcast that says "these are the spawned objects this player should be able to see" and then it pushes the relevant updates

I haven't checked any of that beyond when the command is sent to the server to spawn the vehicle though, so that could be totally wrong

[sour island]

the horde spawner sends a client command

the vanilla debug tool that is

I'm just curious cause now I have to refactor all of EHE to be truly serverside

so far events work as do markers and sounds

hopefully this should fix the sound issue

also I know why events were messing up now - the scheduler was reusing active IDs

[finite radish]

oh, I think zombies might be different - if I remember correctly zombies have a client "owner" that handles zombies, and the positions and whatnot are then broadcast to other players (somewhat inaccurately, especially in laggy situations) and the owner switches when the zombie targets someone else (or the owner leaves the range, with another player still in the loaded area)

that could also be off - that's a vague memory of how it works from a while ago

[sour island]

if events occurred soon enough it could start trying to broadcast two events through the same marker and set of emitters

. _ .

[finite radish]

they get called synchronously though, so that shouldn't be possible

(in theory)

[sour island]

I can test with the events that drop off zombies and trash

atleast that seems to still work

[finite radish]

i think when in doubt I'd just follow the debug menu's lead on what's called in which sections. I'm not aware of any quirks with the zombies that are spawned through that, but they may exist

iirc there's a limit on the number of zombies that can actually be in a cell before they start despawning (maybe it was chunk-based, not sure) but not sure if that'll be an issue, and I could be misremembering

[sour island]

Just trying to see what I need to refactor

ironically single time sounds don't work but loops which gave me such a hard time do

[hot patrol]

Anyone taking commissions ATM? I have a mod I would like to give a facelift to.

[sour island]

seems like sounds played on the server don't relay to clients unless isClient is true

where all the clients can hear it???

[red tiger]

I like that helicopter graphic.

[sour island]

ty

[finite radish]

relayed via sendServerCommand, maybe?

[sour island]

doesnt need to be normally

but I'll have to do that

for looped sounds to broadcast properly I track and move an emitter using commands

for non-looped I didn't have to do this

[finite radish]

does it play before you move the emitter? like, without looping

wonder if it needs to have some sort of update sent to the client

[sour island]

I'm not sure - the fmod stuff is very convoluted

[finite radish]

yeah I can imagine, I've seen as much in other games before and I had very little idea what was going on

[red tiger]

I had a lot of grief working with the internal fmod stuff too.

Can confirm.

[sour island]

normally when you use playsound from server/client folders the sound gets played regardless - as long as isClient==true apparently

this isn't true for emitters that move around and are looping a sound though

hence why I took the time to work out a command relay

the sound stays where the emitter first appeared

[finite radish]

i wouldn't spend too much time on it, i think the sound engine is getting more changes with B42

[sour island]

yeah I'm just going to do a quick command to tell all clients to play a sound on xyz

events can't seem to shoot zombies either

very very strange

[finite radish]

Try This One Neat Trick To Play Sounds (Server Owners HATE This!)

jk i doubt it'll have that much effect on server overhead

[mystic vessel]

Good afternoon everyone, I want to add an item to spawn in the game by default, it's my first time doing a PZ mod and I wanted to know what is needed

[fast galleon]

is it possible to make the player into an NPC to run on some logic

[mystic vessel]

I'm wanting to make the "Nuclear biochemical mask" spawn normally on the map

[fast galleon]

you need to prepare a list of containers you want for the item and a function to insert them

[mystic vessel]

Where can I do this? and is there any example of this here on discord or on the wiki?

[fast galleon]

https://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/38165-quick-guide-how-to-mod-the-loot-distribution-system-distributionslua-proceduraldistributionslua/&do=findComment&comment=365101
This is one way to do it.

[sour island]

is there something for transmitting damage or some such?

seems as though the server isn't staggering or killing zombies

[fast galleon]

Aiteron the modding page looks better now 🙂

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Modding

[finite radish]

i think if you get technical, players are already NPCs (or at least share some names from the old system)

[sour island]

isn't that how the current NPC mods do it

they're all just isoPlayers

[finite radish]

i think so, yeah. more or less. at least in the case of SuperbSurvivors, can't speak to any others

[sour island]

How would one identify a zombie in MP?

the code on server side is clearly identifying targets to shoot at

but the stagger and damage aren't being applied

[fast galleon]

TIS has said that zombies will stay client side with owner system, this might be affecting things

[sour island]

ah

so I'd have to just fire it as a command

but how do I identify the zombie for all clients?

it's also not shooting me either

[red tiger]

And thank God for that.

I remember the lag bite days..

[sour island]

now we have shared ping lag

[red tiger]

Depending on how bad that gets, lesser of two evils.

[sour island]

true I can always kill the other guy

[red tiger]

I remember PvP struggling with B41.

I think a lot of it has to do with client-auth in places that needs to be server-auth.

[bronze yoke]

i remember when b41 mp came out the blog post basically ended with 'don't do pvp, it's shit'

[sour island]

PVP needs alot of work lol

[craggy depot]

Hi guys. Nice to meet you. Im pretty new to PZ discord and i wanted to know something about modding. So tell me if this is the right channel. I have an idea for a mod and i wanted to ask ppl that know about modding PZ to see if its beyond my reach. Ive seen some videos about how to do custom maps etc, but before getting into i need to know if i have time to devote to it.

[sour island]

The game could use a struggle or grapple mechanic

[red tiger]

Pls this.

[sour island]

I know I bring up SS13 alot but just rip them off

and to a lesser degree Barotrauma

[red tiger]

Also can we get chain hooks on vehicles so we can drive around zeds hooked up on them to bounce into things?

Kthx.

haha

[sour island]

adding a targeting system would be fun too

rn it's all RNG as to what body part you hit

[red tiger]

Aiming in iso has always been such a strange animal.

[sour island]

I just mean - on the paper doll health panel

drag a target around the body

as a relative preferred area

[red tiger]

Any mapping questions goes in #mapping

Modding discussion is here.

#mod_support for support on mod-specific issues I think?

[sour island]

you could even use the x/y and a rng buffer zone to accoutn for variables impacting aim

set your target on the head? well now when you're "aim" drifts a couple pixels it might be off the body and be a miss

[bronze yoke]

#mod_support is end-user issues

[red tiger]

Nvm

[bronze yoke]

just general mod related tech support

[red tiger]

Ahhh

You can tell that I don't help people here. xD

[sour island]

basically a purgatory to alleviate tech_support

[red tiger]

Also what a name, swapping B and T like that.

A LotR fan in hiding.

God that guy was OP.

[craggy depot]

Then i guess itd be here. Its not so much about mapping as changing other elements. In brief, id like to make a mod in which theres vampires. They nest in the day in building they turn into nests that attract and/or spawn zombies, not sure yet. It would add some weapons and some changes.

[craggy depot]

As in only for problems?

with mods?

[sour island]

it's modding_(tech_)support

[craggy depot]

Ok

[pulsar heath]

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Modding

[craggy depot]

I know its adumb question, but to keep it short, how hard would it be. I have a bit of experience coding and modeling in 3d

[pulsar heath]

you should start by having a read on that link

[craggy depot]

Thx

[red tiger]

I don't blame anyone for asking people what something could take in terms of work, time, and know-how to make a mod. It's a good idea since it's PZ.

I'd think of dressing up zeds as vampires in vamp clothing.

The logic is something I'm not sure how to go about.

[pulsar heath]

well theres is a mod callend zombies fear the sun that might help on the logic

[red tiger]

I know that zeds operate as boids with leader zeds. Maybe you could hook into that with pathing?

[pulsar heath]

since it makes all zombies hide during day time inside the nearby buildings

[craggy depot]

Thx

[pulsar heath]

the logic there should be easy to apply on a vampire mod

[red tiger]

I'd further clarify if I had more info on pathing.

[craggy depot]

I lnow it. the idea comes in fact from a churning of several mods ive seen but nobody has done what i have in mind to my knowledge. The vampires could be under the sun but highly weakened and in pain. So as to not make it too easy.

[pulsar heath]

well thats up to you, read the wiki familiarize yourself with the modding in pz and give it a try

you can always ask for help

here

[craggy depot]

Im readfing it in fact

[red tiger]

Oh yeah. If you sub to mods, you can find the code for them in /steam/steamapps/workshop/content/108600/

You can see what those mods do.

[craggy depot]

aha, ok, didnt know that

[red tiger]

Lol. I love the unaffected zed at the bottom.

He's just living life a breath and a groan at a time.

[sour island]

well the jets are somehow moving back and forthe

not sure what that's about

none of the other events do this

[pulsar heath]

?

the jets dont just cross the area and fly away?

looping back and forth?

[sour island]

occasionally

[craggy depot]

Of the vampires?

[sour island]

moving fixes it which is equally weird

[red tiger]

Zeds in general.

[sour island]

prob some logic failing

[red tiger]

I'm a UI / tools / Java mod guy.

This is why I'm useless in here.

x)