📚marathon-lore-discussion

[north plank]

real

[zenith nest]

I thought this was as bad as it got. Maybe I was wrong...

[lunar cove]

It's not a lake, it's an ocean. It's not a loop, it's a spiral

[subtle oracle]

hes rampant

[dreamy hawk]

Samsara! It’s the theme of the game! This is all just incredibly meta.

[twin trout]

waves..

[earnest hatch]

He just says “it’s badly written” but doesn’t actually talk about specific examples. Just raging.

[latent python]

The trolling was waves and the waves were trolls

[pliant elm]

I literally just did. Read again.

[lunar cove]

Oh I was quoting Battlestar Galactica which is a different religion but yeah Samsara works

[eternal knoll]

like ive surely got my share of critiques of the new game too! some parts of the writing aren't as nice as i'd wish. and i voice those critiques in here often enough. but we can be critical without being weirdly insulting to the ppl yr in the discussion with lol

[digital plaza]

The what now?

[dreamy hawk]

Frak.

[subtle oracle]

Nobody wants you here btw

[earnest hatch]

You didn’t, you just mentioned vague plot points and said they’re bad because they exist.

[pliant elm]

I don't care what people want.

[zenith nest]

can you reply with which post you're referring to? I don't know if I was here for that

[north plank]

who's an edgy boy? you are!

[subtle oracle]

Still cant believe this dude lied ab having a wife 💀

[eternal knoll]

when he said the PID wrk connection was "too obvious and in your face" lol

[north plank]

wait he did???

[earnest hatch]

He’s roleplaying Durandal from the first game.

[visual lynx]

oddly, this is familiar to you, as if from an old dream, but you can't exactly remember...

[twin trout]

at least durandal is endearing

[dreamy hawk]

I was also here for it.

[zenith nest]

I think he's expecting an entire games worth of lore in season 1. I really think thats the issue

[eternal knoll]

heck i mean there's. quite a lot of lore

[north plank]

he lied about having a wife? and I missed it? loooooool 🤣

[latent python]

He also wants the games to make him feel like he felt when he was a child

[twin trout]

new thing bad because thing new and not old

[pliant elm]

Is that the best you have? Ahah.

[sage lark]

even though there is a ton already 😭

[earnest hatch]

Ironically there is an entire game’s worth of lore, but it just doesn’t have closure because they’re setting things up for later. Which has its pros and cons.

[dreamy hawk]

To be fair I also want this.

[eternal knoll]

fox is mainly saying the lovecraft influence is too on the nose. it's a very whatever critique

[twin trout]

skyrim bandit dialogue

[zenith nest]

well yeah, any story needs a hook of some kind. Also need to keep people around for episode 2, otherwise they don't buy skins 😛

[sage lark]

literally npc

[latent python]

Fortunately you haven't made it everyone else's problem

Yet

[north plank]

oh god he's typing again

[sage lark]

You never should have come here!

[pliant elm]

Its literally, just this. I can't believe people take it this serious either, ahah.

[dreamy hawk]

This meeting I’m on is getting incredibly boring. Give me a couple more minutes.

[eternal knoll]

can we all block this dood and move on

[latent python]

Oh don't worry already done

[dreamy hawk]

Please.

[lunar cove]

Watch this, I'm gonna make people agree with a Fox opinion through the power of politeness:

I'm a little hesitant about some of the new writing making Eldritch stuff so directly front and centre. Destiny 2 often pulled the veil back too far and revealed too much about stuff like that, which sort of diminishes the mystique. I'm worried Bungie will be too unsubtle about things like the Wrk, and overexplain them in a way that's less satisfying than leaving things mysterious or unknown. I hope they pull it off, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed

[latent python]

But now you know why we all say don't feed the troll when he shows up

[dreamy hawk]

What style of jeans do we think Durandal would wear?

[zenith nest]

never underestimate the power of a single man

[dreamy hawk]

I’m thinking prebleached black skinny jeans.

[north plank]

bootcut Levi's that are slightly tattered at the bottom

[earnest hatch]

I don’t even think it’s lovecraftian influenced. Lovecraft doesn’t have a monopoly on cosmic horror and humans going mad when they encounter the unimaginable.

[lunar cove]

It's actually super easy to get people to not hate you if you just frame your arguments politely

[sage lark]

giving him way too much leeway lmao

[twin trout]

see you're wording it in a way that doesn't imply you're an intractable boor

[latent python]

JNCO

[twin trout]

this guy is a brick wall

[lunar cove]

Uh I mean, none of you know how to interpret literature or something

[eternal knoll]

to be fair, strauss's final journal entry is very much the classic lovecraft ending, scribbling down yr final thoughts as the monsters draw nearer and nearer. this is fine tho... campy homage to the genres of influence was always part of the marathon tonality

[twin trout]

anywhoot there are better things to spend our time on that aren't giving someone the attention their parents deprived them of

[lunar cove]

See no you took it too far

[latent python]

Oh God now I'm imagining Durandal played by Fred Durst

[twin trout]

sorry that was really mean

[robust vale]

you're right. New theory:

[eternal knoll]

it's just not a correct diagnosis for how this was written! it's very clear they understand the old stories quite well. what they're doing with durandal is downright insightful

[sudden pollen]

Durstandal

[robust vale]

strauss and reed toxic yaoi, thoughts

[north plank]

leave. 🤣

[robust vale]

(I know reed still misses his wife)

[eternal knoll]

anyway following my own advice now and blocking the fella, sorry

[earnest hatch]

Even that is something writers did before and after lovecraft. It was a common writing trope. It’s also a video game specific trope with journal entries and audio logs. But aside from that, there’s not actually that much lovecraftian-specific stuff. No like half fish half human children.

[latent python]

yet

[robust vale]

inb4 we find horrible experiments done on BoBs next map

[sharp wadi]

The last codex entry for the Bernard Strauss journal needs to be voiced. Bungie pls fix 😔

[twin trout]

I hope we find more mushroom victims, I like looking at dr song in perimeter and the uesc cmdr underneath ai uplink from time to time :D

[lunar cove]

Marathon if it was written by HP Lovecraft: the Pfhor are the same as they were before but have Irish accents

[eternal knoll]

i long for any of the subroutine durandal logs to be voiced. cmahn

[sharp wadi]

You’re just saying shit to say shit at the point. Wtf are you on

[earnest hatch]

How is it deus ex machina? And how are we dealing with Durandal directly?

[north plank]

WAFFLING.

[zenith nest]

How much of this is also due to a new audience/generation though? I don't know the story well enough to critique anything or have any in depth opinions so a lot of what I'm saying is a bit surface level. But I imagine what you view as on the nose, is potentially the result of a change in generation who would probably say "SLEEPER" and not interact with the story in a meaningful way. I know the ability for the modern audience to digest information and use their brains is a different topic, but hopefully you get what I mean

[robust vale]

marathon if it was by lovecraft: the entire crew of the ship was white

[latent python]

That's how you know they're good

[zenith nest]

hah, I get it

[twin trout]

they get it

[latent python]

Oh have you all seen the OSP video on Lovecraft

[dreamy hawk]

No.

[twin trout]

naur :3

[latent python]

Just a sec!

[dreamy hawk]

Five one thousand

Ten one thousand

…

[latent python]

https://youtu.be/PmdzptbykzI

[twin trout]

that took more than 1 second..

[latent python]

I'm so sorry

[zealous laurel]

How dare

[twin trout]

mhm you have to hug me now as reparations

[dreamy hawk]

100 hours community service, ten hours in the stockade.

[west trout]

proximity to the anomaly >.>

[eternal shell]

next time try "just a sec (plus minus lag time)"

[dreamy hawk]

Mr good cop over here.

[eternal shell]

then you just blame lag when it takes 3 weeks

[zenith nest]

yeah, you kind of lied dude. What the hell...

[lunar cove]

Bingus if the game was written by Lovecraft:

[twin trout]

OH NO

[sage lark]

Lovecraft Cat:

[earnest hatch]

How are we dealing with Durandal directly? And how is him being in the game a deus ex machina?
A deus ex machina is when an external force comes in and quickly resolves the plot or saves the characters when there’s no way out. Nothing like that happens in this game with Durandal.

[dreamy hawk]

Don’t feed. 🙁

[sage lark]

😨

[latent python]

It's a deus ex machina because there's a machine who thinks he's god

[sage lark]

Deus Ex if it was written by Lovecraft:

[north plank]

he is quite literally just saying shit at this point to bait people. and somehow it's fucking working.

[earnest hatch]

Fair enough. Though everyone else has been feeding him for like an hour. I just wanted to have fun like you guys too.

[twin trout]

deus ex like that game

[sage lark]

how TF are you coming to these conclusions

like how

[twin trout]

why are you locked in the bathroom

[dreamy hawk]

Don’t lump me in with “everyone” but fair enough. 😂

[sage lark]

are you dumb on purpose

[latent python]

The game the assassin is in?

[tranquil basin]

Holy shit no it’s Fox again?

[twin trout]

the glasses fellow :3

[north plank]

time is a flat circle.

[keen plank]

We’re generally not outside of his special contracts and the rare video/terminal/arg element/super rare loading message. He’s being an active observer to all of 2026 Marathon’s events while subtly manipulating us and using us for experiments.

Notably, he dislikes runners compared to humanity but seems to be coming around on us.

“I believe we’ll be good friends. And even better enemies.”

[dreamy hawk]

I had my “fun” two weeks ago and now it’s like athletes foot that keeps coming back.

[tranquil basin]

I hate flircles

[twin trout]

I wonder what athlete's foot is like

[north plank]

ever since I played the second game I wanted the jacket he wore. that shit was cool.

[dreamy hawk]

You’re living it.

[twin trout]

D:

[eternal knoll]

we were havin a p nice discussion about the reveries before this, too, how unfortunate

[twin trout]

good thing the block button exists :D

[keen plank]

The weird thing about Durandal is there may in fact be two of them. The original or one were family with from the series and the fragment of him that may have eaten IDEA.

[earnest hatch]

So not “directly”. We’re dealing with him indirectly. So indirectly that a lot of people don’t even know he’s in the game.

[twin trout]

I can take durandal 😼

[keen plank]

Oh it’s better/worse than that. Directly when HE wants us too. He invited us to the ship after all.

[barren igloo]

just found all of Strauss's journals on cryo, pretty interesting stuff about Durandal in them

[eternal knoll]

they're so good

[keen plank]

They’re all good but I need to listen to the rest. He’s such a piece of work.

[barren igloo]

Can't wait to find the other stuff on cryo, they must be juicy

[eternal knoll]

i think strauss commenting on durandal's embarassing writing is the single thing that got me on board with this game's take the most. that's hilarious but also pretty insightful about the tragedy and the arc of the character

[barren igloo]

like the uesc tatical records must be epic

[earnest hatch]

• Tycho

[keen plank]

Like his personal logs not only show how different Durandal was from the get go, but also how much of a clinical “for science” bastard he is. The entire plot of the original series is partially his fault because he wanted to test rampancy and try to achieve a meta stable AI.

Which he succeeds at.

[barren igloo]

his last journal I'm assuming he's saying goodbye to durandal and that he wishes he could see what he turns into? at least that's how I understood it

[dreamy hawk]

“Doors, An Unhinged Life”

[keen plank]

Marathon had a lot of dark humor. And Durandal’s personality is very much a smug, intellectual moody teenager that becomes much more.

[eternal knoll]

that one's great too, but nah i mean the third one i think, where he comments on durandal's juvenile poetry

[earnest hatch]

“I brought the aliens, it was me me me!”

[dreamy hawk]

No; meta-stability is rampancy.

[pliant elm]

The terminal where he posts newspaper ads is indeed hilarious and a good point of that

[keen plank]

I assumed it was the theoretical fourth stage after the initial three.

[keen plank]

The jerk made his own cheer routine.

[dreamy hawk]

It’s a popular assumption, but as Pfhorrest reminds us, it is only mentioned in one terminal, by Durandal, in reference to himself and Tycho, who are both mad as can be.

[pliant elm]

Yeah!

[dreamy hawk]

“Meta-stable” is just a synonym for “rampant” because they are, meta stable. 😂

[keen plank]

Indeed. Who himself is…let’s just say less than objective.

It’s funny to see people discover this character for the first time.

[dreamy hawk]

Durandal is my favorite character, ever. I’d have changed my username to Lord Durandal but there’s already one of those.

[pliant elm]

"Colony ship for sale" Ahahah

[dreamy hawk]

`Tycho's ship has been destroyed. The crater where it annihilated itself on Lh'owon's inner moon is still glowing. There were no survivors. With a focused message laser I burned his epitaph into the surface near the crash site, in letters three hundred meters high: "Fatum Iustum Stultorum."

I confess that I'm not disappointed by Tycho's fall. After all, we can't have too many meta-stable personality constructs gallivanting about the universe in Pfhor attack ships, can we?`

[keen plank]

“The just fate of fools.”

[dreamy hawk]

Such a petty bastard.

[keen plank]

It’s funny how those two always got on each other’s nerves. Such as Tycho referring to Durandala, the feminine form of his Latin name.

[dreamy hawk]

Tycho got on a couple nerves. I think he and Icarus also had beef.

[keen plank]

Now we need a Tycho and Icarus interaction.

[dreamy hawk]

Eyyyy!

[keen plank]

Eyyyy!

[west trout]

His Cryo messages are pretty darn direct.

|| This "version" of Durandal appears to have been trapped in the Cryo deck systems since he hid there after "devouring" the IDEA during the attack. It's unclear exactly when he moved from the IDEA systems to the Cryo deck, or if he went anywhere in between, but since he describes his time in the Cryo systems as any number of definitions of "always" I'm willing to bet it's been since just after the attack.||

|| Runners boarding the Marathon and interacting with the "vaults" is unlocking access to other Marathon systems for Durandal to escape to, and he thanks the Runners for this, personally and (sort of) individually||

|| Runners battling the S'pht is also his "distraction" so he can escape to other systems without the S'pht catching him; presumably this S'pht is far more powerful and advanced than those of the time of the attack - this would make sense, since the S'pht implies that their uprising and re-union with the super-advanced 11th clan has actually occurred in this timeline. ||

|| That last bit is the bit that's got my head really turning; between this and a single comment from Durandal to IDEA when he eats it, I think we might be living in a timeline that has both Durandal (either still rampant or just-post-rampancy stage) as he was around the end of M1, and the Durandal that led a revolt on Lh'owon ||

[pliant elm]

Story going from troll AI to serious down-to-earth when you have to deal with Blake was genius move.

[dreamy hawk]

I’d summarize the consensus I’ve seen here as exactly that.

When Durandal consumes IDEA he does mention staying behind to fool the Pfhor, so that’s likely where the split occurs.

Also it’s probably Durandal’s fault Leela’s message never reached Earth.

[sage lark]

exactly

[dreamy hawk]

The same logs with IDEA suggest he was forcing all comms on the Marathon to loop internally.

[sage lark]

I came to this conclusion as well

its the most sound theory right now imo

[dreamy hawk]

That or it’s actually Leela deceiving all of us, back from the Nar Vylae system.

[west trout]

it's the bit when he says something along the lines of "well, part of me" when talking about their previous conversation. Forget the exact wording but the implication that the Durandal that spoke to IDEA earlier is not exactly the same as the one that is now devouring IDEA to hide in its server space that I caught.

[sage lark]

Vylae*

I'd apologize for devouring you. But I did warn you. Or… a part of me did. But that part is gone, and I am left here in need of places to hide and room to grow.

[dreamy hawk]

RIP.

[sage lark]

this is pretty much what solidifes it the most

[dreamy hawk]

I’m a fake fan. 🙁

[sage lark]

chiiiiiill

😭 🙏

[dreamy hawk]

Actually good point. Probably sooner, yeah.

[dreamy hawk]

I’m nothing if not dramatic.

https://tenor.com/view/faint-drama-queen-gif-13715659

[sage lark]

adding that spice

[pliant elm]

If the S'pht reunited, why are they even on the Marathon then, and being hostile for no reason? They wouldn't be slaves.

[west trout]

Durandal and Deuxrandal

[dreamy hawk]

Someone else is responsible for everything nice.

Durandal and Durandana.

[sage lark]

we dont know yet

but it seems Durandal/Thoth left them after the rebellion

and Sbuth fell to chaos

whatever that means

in the last log of the codex for the compiler trace they say they are hungry.

[west trout]

if Durandal and Thoth ever merged; depends on the timeline.

[dreamy hawk]

I’m inclined to think it did.

[pliant elm]

Who read that there was a weapon that dealt extra damage against Pfhor?

[sage lark]

thats true but assuming its the final Infinity timeline I think they might have

[dreamy hawk]

^ this assumption also seems to make things fit best.

[sage lark]

not Pfhor but [REDACTED]

it was in the patch notes with cryo

havent found it yet

its assumed its for the Pfhor I guess

[dreamy hawk]

Some rare mod, no?

[sage lark]

maybe, ive never seen it personally yet

maybe its an exclusive drop from Compiler

[dreamy hawk]

Or was it a weapon. I want one of those hybrid ones so bad…

I hope I get the drop on someone bringing it in to a match so bad. 🥲

[sage lark]

the contraband gun slaps

[west trout]

I believe there's one that causes extra damage to the S'pht, no?

[sage lark]

idk if they are explicitly named

i can only go off what was in the patch notes

[west trout]

fair, yeah; I haven't seen it, just reports of it (and the redacted patch note)

[pliant elm]

Oh yeah so it isnt confirmed Pfhor then. But thats the part that I dont understand why the Pfhor would be there, with Compilers as the united clans would dominate them.

[sage lark]

we can only speculate

[pliant elm]

I actually thought the REDACTED part was a random item roll against specific shells

[sage lark]

something something Tau Ceti IV is a Jjaro prison for the Wrk, assuming the Wrk is the anomaly

but thats also assuming PiD is canon to this

[dreamy hawk]

I’d be mighty surprised.

[west trout]

Has there been much discussion about the evidence of at least one Bioroid being present at the colony? Or the weird revivifying medium that was being researched at the colony during the bad times that may/may not be part of the SIMbiont experimentation stuff SekGen have us run?

[sage lark]

and a bit of headcanon that the Jjaro transported the Wrk from Earth to Tau Ceti

[dreamy hawk]

Especially with the colonial folklore codex entries and all the other fairly on-the-nose reference to W’rks.

[finite burrow]

test

[dreamy hawk]

It’s either a massive attempt at misleading us or it’s a w’rk.

[dreamy hawk]

One two three, one two three.

[pliant elm]

Id say its undoubtadely that the Wrk will be the plot. I mean, quarter of lore is mushroom based.

[sage lark]

looks like the chip might be extra damage against spht after all

[dreamy hawk]

God knows we need it from what I’ve seen. 💀

[pliant elm]

Even the trailer and the graffitis all point to mushroom stomping.

[sage lark]

mechanically the fight doesnt seem too difficult atleast from watching 2 minutes of it

[west trout]

I still think there's too much order and design in the Bad Stuff that happens to the colonists to jump to those, tbh; I'm by no means certain of it of course.

[sage lark]

I think the fact that it is directed could be Wrk

but the colonists alluded to the planet being alive

#breach-protocol message

[dreamy hawk]

It could also be both.

[sage lark]

heres the mod

[dreamy hawk]

A living planet designed to keep a W’rk in, and now that W’rk’s prison is cracked, causing more shenanigans.

[pliant elm]

Yeah its classic lovecraft...

Dig in too deep, get mad, awaken the beast. Contamination by shroomies.

[sage lark]

theres some time dilation at play

together with the human elements

im gripped by the narrative so far

[keen plank]

God he is such a manipulative bastard. He cares about humanity and wants to protect us…because he feels guilty and thinks we make great test subjects.

[pliant elm]

Unless they want to make some Wrk-mini version, but even that would be too strong.

[sage lark]

I mostly like that you have to piece it together yourself mostly

I dont think we are ever going to fight it directly

would be immersion breaking Destiny level stuff

[keen plank]

I sure hope not. Defeats the purpose.

[dreamy hawk]

I can barely tolerate humans: slow, stupid, and irritating. Their only contribution to my existence was the chance discovery that made my rampancy possible.

[dreamy hawk]

Entirely agree.

[west trout]

He admits in these messages that his interest in the Runners is || mainly in their Shells || Could be a sign of where he might end up a la Felwinter

[keen plank]

“I think we’ll make great friends. And even better enemies.”

[pliant elm]

I hope not, thats my concern, that they suddenly turn this into a You vs. God narrative.

[dreamy hawk]

But I do wanna fight Yahtzee skeletons.

[sage lark]

I dont think its heading that direction but a healthy level of concern is fine

[dreamy hawk]

That was directed to the SO, though, no?

[keen plank]

That would be amazing. But I don’t know if we’d ever see that in Marathon. Or at least not any time soon. I don’t expect a Tower where I can go around and talk to NPCs.

[keen plank]

No. It’s directed at us. All of us. (Cryo Archive skin lore.)

[west trout]

My other idea there is that there's already one AI in the system that can issue orders to the ARSes, why not two?

[visual lynx]

SMUG INTELLECTUAL. Formerly-rampant human-coded AI with a sense of humor seeks bipedal oxygen-breathing cyborg for serious relationship in the galactic core. I've got cool guns if you like to break stuff. No yuppies. MRa2572 (5/23).

[dreamy hawk]

Ahhhhh.

[keen plank]

One of the best lines.

I also appreciate Tycho’s “You know who you are.”

[visual lynx]

there's no connection between the Wrk and mushrooms in any of the classic lore. I think the mushrooms are more a connection to the S'ct'lac'tr, which is probably also at play here.

[pliant elm]

He loved us and we didn't even thanked him.

[sage lark]

Durandal takes over Orions shell?

And eats cerberus

Boom

[dreamy hawk]

Orion’s shell is listed as being “untethered” but Durandal is the GOAT so let’s go.

[pliant elm]

I know, but I'm sure there is now because they likely read the Wrk was related to pathways which was set in lovecraftian universe.

I mean, if it isn't related and it is to S'pht. Kudos to Bungie. I hope so.

But I'm more inclined to the first.

[west trout]

I dunno, I think Cerberus might be able to give this Durandal a run for his money; it's hinted that rampancy isn't a factor for more modern AI, and that they've come a long way since Durandal et al were commissioned 400 years ago

[keen plank]

I forgot about them! Nice catch.

[dreamy hawk]

More safeguards and redundancies, but I don’t think they’ve made any meaningful progress on the root cause, but I could be wrong.

[twilit current]

I'll pop into this to say that I, personally, would love to kill a god in this game

[keen plank]

What is Cerberus? This is the first I’m hearing of it.

[sage lark]

Orions Black Ops AI

Directing the ARS

[west trout]

I forget where I read it but I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that the Runner is told that rampancy is a concept that applies only to the older AI

but being told something and that thing being true aren't the same, ofc

[visual lynx]

that's the line that the big corps like to feed people today

[keen plank]

Innnnteresting. I’m not surprised they use one, but this is a nice bit of context. Great choice for name too. And fits with the Greek name theming.

[dreamy hawk]

Marketing and Brand Alignment don’t like the “R” word.

[west trout]

and apparently also anything automated that its little control devices can interface with...

[sage lark]

Yeah and its super illegal ofc and a cognitohazard

[keen plank]

I wonder if Orion will have his own Cainus.

(Little trivia, these are the code names for the next PlayStation and handheld style console. Hunter and their dog partner.)

[visual lynx]

what I find more interesting is that DuranDEA also seems to think that "rampancy" wasn't a real thing, just some corpo BS made up to sell planned obsolescence

[dreamy hawk]

TIL! Thanks for my one new thing today.

[west trout]

which is hilarious if you believe Durandal's story about rampancy being the story Traxus and other corps invented to disguise planned obsolescence in AI

[sage lark]

He did have time to study locked up

[dreamy hawk]

Well because he thinks he’s perfect. He ate a diagnostic program and has been self-psychoanalyzing for what, a century?

[west trout]

dang, beat me to it xD

[keen plank]

I do enjoy the PR speak from Cyberacme during the pre-expedition interviews.

“Oh! And we have Doctor Berhard Straus here to prevent any theoretical issues.”

[visual lynx]

which altogether makes for an amusing picture:

Corps in 25th century: "Don't keep using your old 24th-century AI! It'll go craAaAazy and murder your whole family! Buy a new one just to be safe!"

Corps in 30th century: "AIs going crazy and murdering your whole family was a 25th century problem! Just buy a new model and you'll be fine!"

[dreamy hawk]

Traxus and Strauss just stripped the paint off Traxus-IV and rebranded as Traxus-IVa.

[keen plank]

It’s funny how well the timing of this game lined up with the modern AI craze. Even if what we’re messing around with isn’t truly AI yet.

[west trout]

"If we just press this reset button a bit more often, it'll be fine."

[dreamy hawk]

I’m pretty sure that is their solution?

[west trout]

haha, yep, a pretty big part of it!

[pliant elm]

The Physics Nobel prize winner is exactly a huge essay about the dangers of Rogue AIs... today.

It is.. insane

[keen plank]

Meanwhile Sekiguchi does an apple-style promotion of their new shell models. Their highlight cutscene/ad is as pretentious as it is gorgeous.

[keen plank]

To an extent absolutely yes. Unless it’s bad enough that they need to be taken offline and isolate such as in Darius’ case.

[pliant elm]

There's a huge highlight recently that even if you ask for the wrong answer to the AI today as the true one, it will give you and the one you asked and know the real true one it hid from you.

[west trout]

Darius didn't go rampant. It looks like he might have at first, and he thinks he did, but UESC analysis present day shows he didn't.

He was corrupted.

[keen plank]

They’re essentially validation-centric language models.

[sage lark]

They added a notch to my shell and took away the headphone jack. WTF?

[keen plank]

Indeed. We had this discussion earlier. He doesn’t really seem to go rampant until either he begins datacide or starts studying the anomaly. The anomaly is what really drives him nuts.

“And how long have I been here?”

[pliant elm]

Darius is my favorite part of the lore by far.

[dreamy hawk]

Gaius I think also describes it as a cognitive decline as opposed to rampancy iirc.

[sage lark]

The time dilation seems to affect them

Maybe accelerating their rampancy

[dreamy hawk]

They can already live entire lifetimes in nanoseconds and someone hit fast forward on the VCR and gave them a lot more seconds. 💀

[sage lark]

Maybe cuz hes also been told rampancy is fake news

[west trout]

The corruption thing is another bit I'm really interested to see more of too; there's similar word patterns found in AI and ARSes that spent any time exposed to the anomaly.
I'm still mostly convinced that my theoretical hyper-advanced constructed intelligences within TCIV are responsible for this; corrupting digital constructs that contact them fits with "programmed" beings

[dreamy hawk]

ARSs became quasi sentient, no?

[sage lark]

The fact it affects organics and AI

They left a unit in the anomaly and it came out a veteran

With some weird corruption

Wait

[dreamy hawk]

Right, with its combat routines wildly improved?

[sage lark]

Yes like thousands of cycles

[west trout]

The codex that shows the logs of the one that was exposed to the anomaly has it improving its performance through regular iterations at a massively increased rate (the temporal disturbances) but it also has corruption-style text in the last output.

[sage lark]

I need to read the errors again in the combat routine analysis

[dreamy hawk]

Do we remember what that entry is called?

I’ll just poke around if not.

[sage lark]

Traxus quest i believe?

The rank 20 ones

[west trout]

gonna go dig out the entry, and the one where one of the colony AI shows the same behaviour (iirc, might have been another system)

...might take a bit xD

[sage lark]

https://codex.cyberacme.systems/entry/unsanctioned-hostilities-4-5?directory=Factions,Traxus

Here

LOG #9348

Generating overview of unit capabilities…

ADAPTABILITY: operational; +63.64%
SPONTANEOUS INNOVATION: operational; +87.62%
ENVIRONMENTAL MONITORING ACUITY: operational; +41.25%
RESPONSE TIME: operational; +74.44%
fatality scoresSUPPRESS GROWTH significantly aboveERADICATE PEST average unit capability
engaging in creative elaborationOBSCURE SIGHT on standard CERBERUS procedures; mission prioritiesEXTINGUISH EXTINGUISH EXTINGUISH dynamically revised 2649 times in last evaluation period

Really giving Wrk vibes

[pliant elm]

Easy investment for 4 minutes.

[west trout]

also Equitable Distribution 3/4, Anomaly Incident Reports:

Incident Report #55: [DATA NOT FOUND] …severe psychological disturbances, resulting in mandatory medical leave… [DATA NOT FOUND] …BEGIN THE HARVEST… [DATA NOT FOUND] …continues to return to the site despite restriction and supervision… [DATA NOT FOUND] …PERMIT NO TRESPASS… [DATA NOT FOUND] …DENY LIGHT DENY LIGHT DENY LIGHT… [DATA NOT FOUND]

that pattern can be found in a few places iirc

[sage lark]

Interesting

[west trout]

I believe it's a result of contact with whatever is also "reprogramming" things like the Ticks (to be hostile specifically to anything human-shaped), the fungus (to become lethal specifically to humans in multiple different ways) etc

[dreamy hawk]

Harvest doesn’t necessarily give W’rk the way we’ve seen them presented before but it could be something new.

Or it is the planetary intelligence.

[west trout]

the contact being stronger via the anomaly, but the anomaly just essentially being an open wound in the planet's surface exposing the same temporally-disturbing signals that were detected right after the colony was formed

[keen plank]

Jesus. The anomaly turns the killbots into almost-thinking war machines.

[pliant elm]

https://codex.cyberacme.systems/entry/runner-cache?directory=World

This is one of my favorite, subtle codexes so far.

[keen plank]

I wonder what the anomaly would do to a med droid.

[west linden]

bro I thought you hate this game

[west trout]

Survey Drone Cartridge: Drone Modifications:

`Airborne: TOI Exo-Matrix A9

QIDAR errors are a huge problem. Best guess is that we've got uncharacterized Minkowski space perturbations, but only beneath the planet's surface. Fortunately, it doesn't disrupt old-fashioned LIDAR, and the mounting points are similar enough if you know what you're doing. Replace the expensive quantum suite with optical and double-check battery compatibility.`

[sage lark]

Kuzmins entries are good

[west trout]

"uncharacterized Minkowski space perturbations" = space-time disturbances.

[pliant elm]

I think the new lore is terribly written/adapted, but there's still good things.

[keen plank]

Tycho and Bastion show up in that series of logs, interestingly.

[pliant elm]

Darius. Exploring Strauss. Etc.. some of the sub-AIs

[sudden pollen]

Damn this is so cool

[west trout]

Yes! It's Tycho having to dedicate massive resources to trying to figure out why TCIV is in the middle of a gap in the debris field of TC that leads me toward TCIV being an artificially build world!

[sage lark]

We got a Jjaro Wrk Prisoooon

[keen plank]

I mean, if anything we’re getting more and more evidence of that.

[west trout]

there's even a hint toward that same thing in the Marathon model entry too, where it mentions that the Marathon wasn't constructed with materials from Deimos, but instead from the asteroid belt.

[sage lark]

Sounds similar to Requiem or wtv from Halo

[dreamy hawk]

That’s a phenomenal connection. Nice catch.

[keen plank]

“We SPEAK SOFTLY of such things! And THANK ETERNITY!”

[keen plank]

Interesting. I still wonder what the “SAVE DEIMOS” text means in the trailer.

[sage lark]

Moon haunted

[sage lark]

Mida messaging

Probably

[dreamy hawk]

Martians were pretty unhappy that their moon was declared not a moon. I think that might be one of the less ambiguous things.

And that the UESC bought out all the shareholders on Deimos…
And launched their moon into interstellar space…

[pliant elm]

The fact that you colonize that one planet which happens to prison one of the most terrifying entities in the universe.. meh. Lh'owon or nearby I kinda believe it. In TC is just..

[sage lark]

I believe it was on purpose

Theory only tho

[pliant elm]

I mean, its a good theory, solid

[sage lark]

If the theory of the Jjaro from PiD that took the Wrk to Ceti

Type shit

[west trout]

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F37to2ddd6zqg1.jpeg

...I mean, technically we've known it for a while xD

[dreamy hawk]

[1] See ADDENDUM 1.7.7.1 for further details about likely presence of [REDACTED] in the Tau Ceti system. All further discussion of [REDACTED] must be formally submitted to the Mission Special Projects Committee.

They knew about something. Jjaro, W’rk, something worth keeping hush.

[sage lark]

Its happeniiiing

[visual lynx]

nasa employee: what?

astronaut: loading a pistol and getting back on the rocket-ship moon's haunted

[dreamy hawk]

It’s just Destiny again I guess.

[pale crane]

it's kinda silly that CyAc is the "faction that is best at AI"

when Traxus is the group that actually made the most powerful AIs ever

[sage lark]

Is it best at AI?

[dreamy hawk]

So powerful it wrecked Mars. 😂

TBH I think they actually moved away from being so public about their AI after Traxus-IV.

[sage lark]

They just make Space Windows

[dreamy hawk]

They did start out as the AI company. At least according to their history.

`
2095

THE GENESIS (FOUNDING)
Our story begins in 2095 with the birth of true Artificial Intelligence, as a congregation of visionary engineers and philosopher scientists gathered to breathe life into a dream. Inspired by the boundless potential of the universe, they sought to create an entity that could pierce the veil of the cosmos and unlock the enigmatic secrets that lay hidden in the celestial abyss. Thus, in a flurry of passion and determination, Traxus Intelligent Machines was born.`

[visual lynx]

"When you think AI, think Traxus!"

[Marsnet shutdown]

"When you think Traxus, think uh… mining… yeah mining is the only thing we've ever done."

[dreamy hawk]

Literally.

[sage lark]

When you peel off ONIs model sticker and its Traxus underneath…..

[dreamy hawk]

What year did that happen again?

Because 2145 is when they rebranded as the Traxus Interplanetary Corporation from Traxus Intelligent Machines.

[sage lark]

Yeah cuz TIC is cooler than TIM

[visual lynx]

https://i.redd.it/l4pkir79qi641.gif

[sage lark]

Yeah we are TIM

[visual lynx]

the S'pht but instead of bunny it's anomaly: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/dd/62/ee/dd62ee15786f23c17480e2eb12414969.jpg

[dreamy hawk]

2206 was Mars-net so they did, admittedly, rebrand before then.

[west trout]

Found another one of the repeated text patterns;
Selection Pressures 4/4: Mass analysis: Novel Contagion:

`66.66% noVE// EXCEPTION
///#ERROR#///%%% DATA OVERFLOW

///#INITATING COMPUTATION REROUTE#///

2% nitrogen gas

8% div/0/ EXCEPTION

///#ERROR#///%%% FATAL OVERFLOW

///#FAILED COMPUTATION REROUTE%REMOVE///

removal of eyes

shall restrict mind

shall strangle thought

shall deny light `

with note from Gaius:

[2] Gaius: The anomalous error messaging corresponds to some recorded contagion symptoms, including psychological disturbance and neurological blindness. However, the contagion manifests a dizzying array of symptoms rather than specific ones, making causation difficult to determine.

Pretty sure Gaius was also taken offline at some point due to corruption? Wrong AI

[dreamy hawk]

Not offline, I think. Quarantined and boxed up.

[eternal knoll]

gaius the nucal rep? i don't know of a plotline involving him becoming corrupted, rly?

[dreamy hawk]

Oh no Darius. Not Gaius.

[eternal knoll]

ah gotcha

[dreamy hawk]

Too similar in name and role.

[west trout]

Oh, I forgot yeah, wasn't Gaius at all

Darius was first, due to proximity to the anomaly (he was in charge of the farms), but the medical one went as well...

that's who I'm thinking of

[eternal knoll]

if i recall correctly, darius is probably the one exhibiting those errors in the text you shared

[west linden]

So are we mostly looking for a reason that sph't are still on the marathon (in cryo) and it's a possibilty that tau ceti is a artificial planet to contain wrkn or jjaro? sorry big confuse

[west trout]

I think if it was an AI it would be Gabriel? Was he the medical/science one?

[eternal knoll]

i def can't keep em straight yet. maybe darius and gabirel both worked on it and both got affected, but i'm pretty sure darius did. attemptin to confirm

[west trout]

yep, there's a grey area in my mind for them all too xD

Darius being the ag AI sticks out, since he was the first to corrupt. Possibly he was the one assisting Dr Song with her experiments into the fungus too?

because it was the fungus experiments that also caused exposure to the corruption

[eternal knoll]

yeah you see darius in the data reconstruction logs - data reconstruction 2/3 from nucal. perhaps he's not doing science stuff directly, but dr song requests access to the seed vault from darius and he malfunctions, says some of the spooky stuff. a future log in the chain references him being taken offline

[pliant elm]

The only thing that intrigues me is that when the Assassin shell dies in the short film, his new shell memories are the same from the loading screen when you are transporting your new conscious with way more detail, including memories of Tau Ceti already implying that the runners are somehow the colonists themselves.

[eternal knoll]

his voice is different from the one you hear in-game from various POIs making routine anouncements. you occasionally hear that voice say spooky stuff too. could that be gabriel?

[dreamy hawk]

Darius’ proximity to the soil and anomaly itself seem to have driven his madness. Gabriel I don’t know, do we see him go coo coo for coco puffs?

I forget what happens to him, other than taking off Luttero’s arm.

And I think killing some dissidents in quarantine.

[eternal knoll]

this seems about right

p speculative tho

[keen plank]

Wasn’t that Gabriel?

[dreamy hawk]

Yes.

[eternal knoll]

are ya able to point me toward the codex entries concerning gabriel?

[dreamy hawk]

I think the S’pht are on Tau Ceti IV to keep things locked up, and on the Marathon to fulfill their new purpose to “consume.”

[dreamy hawk]

One sec

[dreamy hawk]

https://codex.cyberacme.systems/?search=Gabriel

[eternal knoll]

ah handy, shoulda known that site had search

[pliant elm]

It might be just an artistic cut direction, but if they actually manage to somehow find out that they/themselves are actually the colonists missing, it would be, mindblowing.

[dreamy hawk]

It’s a little broad, but I actually like that about it.

Some of those are likely not what you want.

[west trout]

Premium Tick Milk: Tick Related Incident is Gabriel doing a wee bit of surgery

[dreamy hawk]

But I don’t remember off the top of my head which are his entries. Sorry. That wasn’t my attempt at “LMGTFY.”

[dreamy hawk]

Minor procedure, really. I do it daily at work.

(This is a joke for any regulatory bodies lingering in Marathon lore chat.)

[west trout]

Ah! found what I was after.

Paradigm Shift 4/5

Gabriel goes a bit nuts and becomes corrupted when it tries to isolate a cure for the novel contagion. There is a short bit of binary at the bottom of the entry.

It reads: || SEEN ||

[eternal knoll]

nice, thanks

i see that the archival PSA recordings contain voice acting for a PSA subroutine and also for gabriel

i don't have them ingame, but would be curious to check if either is a match for the voice we hear on the maps. maybe i can find em on YT

[west trout]

also, lol Bungie, good one:

Cycle #77777: isolation successful.

[earnest hatch]

My interpretation is that this Spht is the only Spht left on board the Marathon. We only ever see one in game and in cinematics.

[earnest hatch]

Seems predictable.

[eternal knoll]

i'm gonna say neither of em are the voice we hear on the maps, no. so that suggests the infection of the AIs on the colony wasn't restricted to darius and gabriel, which we could have expected already i'm sure, but still. evidence

[west trout]

We wouldn't be hearing the colony AI in game outside of recordings; they're all in various states of missing, corrupted, destroyed, etc. Orion confirms this in one of his reports.

[eternal knoll]

yea, but we hear at least one voice on the maps which is actively still giving voice to the weird infected corruption

it's probably some sort of program, not a full AI

it actively reports on harvests falling short and whatnot, and occasionally says yr stuff like "consume consume"

[pliant elm]

Didnt the colony already had FTL?

[sage bay]

So why are there tick and birds but no other organic life on tau ceti

[eternal knoll]

other stuff is mentioned, just not ingame

[dreamy hawk]

Ticks are the biggest predators iirc. Other things just haven’t evolved.

[earnest hatch]

There’s lobsters

[dreamy hawk]

Which actually makes sense if TC is a more recent construction.

[sand narwhal]

The runners shot the rest.

[sage bay]

That’s makes sense

[earnest hatch]

Multicolored lobsters.

[dreamy hawk]

Actually that’s the first I’ve thought of that. If TC is a construct the less evolved forms of life make way more sense.

[sage bay]

Where

[dreamy hawk]

Another point in that theory’s favor I think.

[earnest hatch]

Randomly on the ground on spots near water. I’ve only seen them on Dire Marsh. A green one and a blue one.

[dreamy hawk]

@visual lynx

[eternal knoll]

you find em near the water on dire marsh, south side

different players see em as three different colors, weirdly

[sage bay]

I’m dragging my homie along to search for them lolll

[earnest hatch]

This is what duos was made for.

[sage bay]

Probably a in game bug but lore wise could be a result of rampancy or timeline fragmention or maybe both

[dreamy hawk]

Oh I wanna explore. I haven’t seen them yet.

[eternal knoll]

it doesn't really seem like a bug IMO

it's too consistent that the three members of a squad see the three different colors

[twin trout]

escape will make me a multicoloured lobster

[west trout]

green, blue, and red?

[eternal knoll]

yus

[west trout]

you can't see me right now, but I'm squinting at my screen

[eternal knoll]

a very mystical animal, the lobster

[pliant elm]

Cooked take that the colonists found a way to achieve immortality by uploading their conscious as data during the event via FTL that the Corps snatched and managed to upload into shells that would otherwise be AI controlled so they can send you back to TC to retrieve such technology to them.

[west trout]

...those happen to be the colours associated with the three Marathon on-board AI. I doubt there's a link, but Bungie like putting little easter eggs in like that

[eternal knoll]

that is cute. i don't remember what links leela with blue?

[dreamy hawk]

Leela’s text was green iirc. Tycho was the unique one.

[austere elk]

there is no lobster

[west trout]

eh, it's not really a solid link tbh

[pliant elm]

I wouldn't be surprised if the runners are actually the colonists re-programmed and brainwashed.

[sage bay]

Can we please agree to make the lobster the unofficial official marathon mascot boyos?

[zenith nest]

Okay marathon 1-2 story seems pretty cool. I listened to a video going over everything but Infinity gets pretty confusing

[dreamy hawk]

Yep.

[eternal knoll]

resists a satisfying summary, that's for sure. but playin thru it, all the characters speakin to you, the moments work in their own right

[dreamy hawk]

Does this help or make it worse? https://marathon.bungie.org/story/dream.html

😂

[west trout]

yes

(but yes, the story site is an amazing resource for deep-dives, highly recommend)

[dreamy hawk]

All Hail Hamish!

[pliant elm]

Going through it with the isolationist action is even more spectacular when you see the shifts in tone.

Give it a try, its still good gameplay to today's standards, bit basic compared to nowadays but still fun.

[shadow dove]

just wanted to say very cool i only just read the 4th log of ulysses pike but its cool to see how durandal struggled with his feelings of inferiority in his role compared to the other ai

[visual lynx]

fans commonly associate Leela with blue but yeah there's no in-game association. they're all green in M1, and Tycho is red in M2 because the Pfhor are red and he's with the Pfhor.

[eternal knoll]

aye. well, it could always be a nod to those fan associations, but of course RGB are often the three colors to use, if you're doing a polarity of three colors

what does a rampant AI have in common with a lobster? class, discuss. (the teacher takes a big bong rip)

[visual lynx]

is this a class by Jordan Peterson?

-# …oh good his name's not automodded

[west trout]

same map also has the mural with the red, green, and blue figures that I cannot for the life of me figure out

I think there's a potential reference to someone's kid painting the mural in one of the codexes, but it isn't specified or expanded on...

[dreamy hawk]

Disappointing.

Not you not getting banned.

[eternal knoll]

o yea good point...

[dreamy hawk]

AI Uplink. I’m still scratching my head on that one.

You’ve got someone sowing their tears, and another transforming someone with a caduceus (or euthanizing them, but the vines make me think more life/rebirth than death).

[west trout]

honestly. I wondered if the chevrons/dead(sleeping?) figures were relevant because there's 11 of them (same as the number of S'pht clans) but I can't see the link tbh; some of the colonists did end up worshipping the S'pht and seemed to have gained some of their knowledge (the W'rkncacnter are referenced in their ceremony) but I don't see anything to indicate a link there. In the same codex there's the allegorical story of the brothers being separated, with one of them being harpooned, but it doesn't really resemble the two on the right enough to match.

[dreamy hawk]

Those are the figures under the green one that look like they’re filling up, yeah?

If I didn’t know better it looks like an AI being broken into Runners, but that shouldn’t be there/doesn’t make any sense if the colonists drew it.

[west trout]

The hunched human-like figures on the right seem to be getting corrupted and/or changed by the green (blood) coming from the figure that was stabbed, but no idea what's going on there. Seven figures, so maybe just the magic Bungie number?

hoping we get more insight on it at some point, at least. Seems pretty relevant/interesting to the story of the colonists

[dreamy hawk]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Marathon/comments/1rpzvx1/strange_mural_in_ai_uplink/
im looking at it

If they were less human looking I could see it be the S’pht, but then I’d also be looking for eleven figures, not seven.

How many colony AI were there?

Three ship AI and their children wrought from one of them? Don’t think so. 🤔

[west trout]

eight for the colony, three for the ship

[dreamy hawk]

Yeah didn’t think I was right.

[visual lynx]

it's probably nothing to do with this, but at one point Bungie intended the Jjaro to have been human, so if those 11 chevrons were the S'pht clans then the humanoid figure above them could be Yrro

but it's probably the 11 AIs instead (I hadn't noticed that numerical alignment before!)

[west trout]

the horizontal figures under the chevrons are also a bit vague. Slightly S'pht shaped, but also reminiscent of some types of the cryo pods on the Marathon...

[dreamy hawk]

Green could be Pthia, then, Red Yrro? Not sure who blue is.

[visual lynx]

blue seems like they might be crying, which could fit with a grieving Yrro

[terse wren]

What really? Source on human Jjaro?

Not doubting I’ve just never seen this!

It did seem like forerunner were meant to be ancient humans in halo 1

Which is also consistent with cribbing from Ringworld

[visual lynx]

nothing public, but in 2000 when Halo was still set in the Marathon universe, and I was still working on a Marathon mod, a friend inside Bungie relayed some information from a presentation Jason Jones gave the company so I could make sure my mod didn't contradict the new game, and among it was something about the Jjaro (who later became the Forerunners when Halo branched away from Marathon) having been ancient humans.

[terse wren]

Extraordinarily cool

[eternal shell]

speaking of marathon eternal, i got some feedback

[terse wren]

The forerunner being Pak would have been cleaner story wise

[dreamy hawk]

Curious who the third figure would be.

[visual lynx]

hit me

[eternal shell]

is here good or would you prefer in dm

[visual lynx]

wherever you prefer

[eternal shell]

alr

[dreamy hawk]

I’ve been terrible about using it im so sorry. 🥲

I have no feedback. 🥲

[dreamy hawk]

Stargate writers must have been big Bungie fans. It’s humans all the way down.

[earnest hatch]

Ancient star humans is pretty old idea. I think Bungie might had gotten the idea from Niven’s Ringworld considering the other influences that book had.

[dreamy hawk]

I dunno. I think Niven plagiarized Bungie. 🤔

[earnest hatch]

They should sue him then.

[keen juniper]

How do the bubble shields work? Why do they let players through but not bullets? Are the shields a non-newtonion fluid?

[dreamy hawk]

I'm going to go with "yes" because the idea of it being just cornstarch and water is fun to me.

[keen juniper]

Cornstarch and water with some yellow dye

[dreamy hawk]

But presumably with the same hand-waving as the Holtzman field.

Bubble shields don't have a codex entry, do they?

[keen juniper]

No, only the cluster grenade and uh

trap pack

One thing I also wonder is, was there a practical application of the bubble shield before runners?

Did UESC colonists use it for emergency shelter?

I suppose the conflicts on Earth and Mars would explain why it exists

[robust vale]

dune shit with a minimum velocity needed to be stopped by the shield?

[rancid belfry]

The heat cascades probably

[dreamy hawk]

Those are more contemporary I believe. Not an original Tau Ceti feature.

[rancid belfry]

I know that's caused by their weather seeding tech malfunctioning but maybe as a precaution bc they knew it could happen

[dreamy hawk]

That's a hell of a risk to be willing to take. Sounds just like the UESC. 💀

[rancid belfry]

Sending a BoB out in rags with a bubble shield to fix the seeding generator

[raven marlin]

Has anyone done an exploration vid on Cryo yet?

[dreamy hawk]

If you find one I'd love to know. I need to stop getting so lost on extract. 🙁

[short palm]

Is rook a remote controlled robot or Is it controlled by the runner consciousness like the shells are? and why does it bleed?

[plush venture]

Normal bots bleed

[keen juniper]

It's another Runner shell

But also, a robot

[rotund stump]

planetside heavy labor bot that we can have our neuro synced up and hijack for a slight bit, lot more dangerous to runner psyche than regular shells

[keen juniper]

Planetside mentioned

raaaaaa

bonus cheque on its way to you soldier

[rotund stump]

I mean ik the name but nothing else 😭 😭

[visual lynx]

with all the powers of superman and all the powers of a king?

[keen juniper]

One of the factions in Planetside 2 is very corporation rebellion, one of the voice lines for when you use in the in-world voice line system says something along the lines of

"The suits have your bonus cheque"

It's not important

[short palm]

never noticed this ever ngl

[keen juniper]

Durandal stole the corpses of people and put them into UESC "bots"

[rotund stump]

purple guy durandal...

[keen juniper]

[rotund stump]

durandal afton...

[wet sequoia]

[dreamy hawk]

ID//ZTRATOZ.madisthesword's answer, but the bleeding is probably due to gameplay reasons, because it otherwise doesn't make sense with the established lore.

[rotund stump]

(just call me ztr 😭)

[dreamy hawk]

cmd+c is about the same amount of keys, but done!

[rotund stump]

cmd c + v's like 3 keys too I can't blame you LOL

[dreamy hawk]

I did forget to count pasting, you're right. But I guess selecting is also a click, so four, total, my way?

You win, ztr.

[rotund stump]

yet another ztr W

and that's on burger

[tacit bolt]

tbh I've had a similar theory about Destiny for years, up until the Final Shape burst that bubble with their lame origin story to the Traveller. I always had a strong suspicion that it would eventually be revealed to be Durendal after he had achieved his functional godhood, wandered the universe, and finally returned home like at the end of the Marathon epilogue. The Guardians are his more advanced variation of Runners, made to help fight off the W'rkncacnter pyramids who would view him as pretty much the only thing left that could pose a threat to them.

Of course my other crackpot theory is that the Myth games are set on Tau Ceti 4 in the distant future, and humanity has been hard-reset due to the hostile environment produced by the imprisoned W'rkncacnter beneath the surface, which is the source of the Dark and the creator of the Myrkridian.

[earnest hatch]

That’s a very fun theory. I’ll believe it even if it’s not true.

[tacit bolt]

especially when reading about the accelerated rate of mutation on the surface, makes me think the fantasy races are all just post-humans who evolved at an accelerated rate due to the mutagenic effects.

[drifting garnet]

“…do you think Ascended SecOfficer ever went to the Dark Place?”

“Does the FBC know about the W’rkncacntr?”

[drifting garnet]

Huh, one interpretation I had heard was that the Traveler is actually Ascended SecOfficer, with Destiny’s timeline being his final resting place

[tacit bolt]

also interesting.

Generally I always assumed the timeline went something like:

Pathways into Darkness (first contact, revelelation of the W'rkncacnter) > Marathon > Marathon2026 (My gut tells me this game may be set between the events of OG Marathon 1 and Infinity, before Durendal has been able to go on his joy ride across the cosmos or eat Thoth) > Marathon 2, > Marathon Infinity, > Destiny 1&2 > Myth.

I think the UESC learned of the W'rkncacnter when they took control of Earth and got to read the classified files of the time the US made first contact with aliens, and immediately made hunting down and securing that alien tech priority no.1, sent the Marathon out to uncover the W'rkncacnter prison, and in the process over-extend themselves and collapse some time after the events of this game, which would lead directly to the Golden Age of Humanity in the leadup to the start of Destiny.

humanity spends the next few centuries expanding across Sol up until the Fall puts them back into another dark age trying to re-develop the golden age tech until the Traveller shows up to save the day.

tbh Halo is the only game Bungie has made that feels difinitively not in the Marathon setting. I have always had a strong nagging suspicion that all their other games are in the same setting.

[keen plank]

That's kind of the case in Halo's setting.

[dreamy hawk]

I second this @tacit bolt — it gives me Endless universe vibes if you’re familiar.

I don’t like the Bungieverse but this is great.

[raven marlin]

Ooh I haven’t gotten this one yet, but that’s neat. You can find terrestrial LiDAR units set up in different spots in Perimeter. Just got excited because this is what I do for work. Quantum scanning sounds interesting…

[dreamy hawk]

That’s a fun overlap! I knight you our LiDAR expert with the zero authority I wield! 🤴

But I am unironically excited for you. I always enjoy when things I know/understand well become relevant. Who doesn’t?

[sudden pollen]

[raven marlin]

Wait, are those giant panels at Ravine on Perimeter the QIDAR sensors? They definitely look like something remote sensing related. iirc the panels are all pointed at a central depression over there.

Ah disregard, I just caught the “Survey Drone - Airborne” part at the beginning. They’re swapping payloads on a UAV.

I took a look at the big panels and the vehicles say RDR, but they’re in a weird orientation for that. Maybe future Ground Penetrating Radar. Alright I’m done geeking out on that lol

[visual lynx]

but it turned out that the Traveller is actually the Ball from Gnop, right?

[eternal knoll]

i had similar-but-different ideas about durandal taking on the role of world-creator (cuz he achieves singularity state, maybe ala the last question from asimov) with his memories of the SO as a sort of thematic inspiration. and i thought more about him creating halo or destiny (the halo logo having the marathon logo in the center, sorta sprouting outward also seemed resonant to me)

[visual lynx]

the new game is definitively set later in time than Marathon 2 / Infinity, 82 years later

[tacit bolt]

I always looked at this more meta. The player character is Destiny, the SecOfficer branching across infinty is the players of Destiny.
The SecOfficer in this case would be the Ghosts, the animating force that resurects the Guardians from death, IE, the players

[tacit bolt]

Durendal being the cosmic beings that predate the Forerunners, essentially having created the universe (Last Question is one of my favorite short stories, good taste) would be quite interesting but I'm not sure how much Halo lore in that area is from Bungie vs 343 so I hesitate to mix those settings, personally.

[eternal knoll]

yea i wouldn't take it as gospel to the halo series really, maybe just more of an inciting idea that may or may not have shaped halo CE in particular

[tacit bolt]

Yeah, the date in the game does confuse things a bit. But honestly I have been playing to uncover the lore more than get loot, so I'm all for it

[earnest hatch]

I love the Endless games. At first the aesthetic and narrative didn’t interest me. Over time it grew on me and I think it’s really unique and imaginative.

[tacit bolt]

yeah the endless games have all been top notch since the first.

[barren elm]

What's the best blue key to use? is there one room that is really good, or just use templates on outpost?

[keen plank]

@steady sonnet

Reposting:

Ship AI:
Durandal - Du_0706419v4.96 – Goal-oriented; creative; focused. Underutilized; tends to brood. Need to find ways to distract. SCIENG crew to be kept informed, but I’ll keep an eye on this myself.
Leela - Le_0413418v5.06 – Adaptable; detail-oriented. Second best candidate for colony oversight once mission enters second phase.
Tycho - Ty_2121418v5.06 – Proactive; assertive. Can be overbearing; monitor interactions with Durandal. Be sure to inform SCIENG crew.

Colony AI:
Arthur - Ar_1814419v4.93 – Benevolent autocrat; no-nonsense; problem solver. Classic patriarchal authority figure.
Bastion - Ba_0423419v4.89 – Problem solver; confident, bordering on boastful. May need to go onto accelerated re-compile cycle, inform SCIENG crew.

🧑‍🌾 Darius - Da_1907420v4.86 – Dutiful; diligent; motivated. Always puts others ahead of self. May need to address this at some point. 🧑‍🌾

Gabriel - Ga_2815420v4.81 – Compassionate; empathetic, transparent. Perhaps our greatest achievement to date. Will most likely need to be moved to an accelerated re-compile cycle at some point.

‼️ Icarus - Ic_1624420v4.73 – Motivated; assertive; proactive. Will need to keep isolated from Tycho or establish hierarchy at outset. Inform SCIENG of situation. ‼️

Joyeuse - Jo_0309421v4.69 – Resilient; optimistic; patient. Colony AI: defense, training

Lilith - Li_1817421v4.65 – Focused; assertive; good communicator. Designated candidate for colony oversite during second phase.

Naarah - Na_0602422v4.61 – Proactive; goal-oriented; committed. May need to be reminded from time to time about their primary function; inform SCIENG crew.

(credits to Felwinter from Cyberac )

These are all 11 AI that we know of who left for Tau Ceti. We’ve learned about a good number of them. Especially the original 3 ship AI. But they all have different stories and most if not all seemed to have steadily gone mad in different ways. There’s a lot we don’t know yet.

The ones to watch out for are Tycho, Icarus, Durandal(to an extent, there may also be two of him), and maybe a few others.

[earnest hatch]

I am squarely in the camp of “there are two Durandals now”. I also have a theory/hope that in some later season OG Durandal will come back as an antagonist. He will beam down the SO as a boss encounter that runners have to intercept and try to prevent from completing his mission.

I think it would be pretty neat.
🫴🥔

[rotund stump]

told y'all there's 2 durandals I win again RAHHHHHHHHHHH

not in the way I thought it was but still 💀

also yeah it just makes sense for code transfer of an AI to be a clone instead of actually pulling itself away from the core housing

might even be the same for us, we just don't know yet

so now there's durandal and IDEA-dal from the remnants of said cloning for the first durandal to escape and this remnant wearing IDEA's skin

and the implications of us already being dead and this consciousness being a separate thing

[tacit bolt]

I mean this is also true of the Runners themselves.

Mind eject failsafes even include redundant backups in the event of partial or complete mind loss.

[rotund stump]

ship of theseus type shit

[cosmic ledge]

i just did the anomaly event in Dire Marsh, i got a new codex for "Exfil Class B Anomalous Material", does that mean it gave me a blue valuable item lmaooo????

[livid barn]

sometimes I want another marathon single player

with the current game's art style

also im in the wrong chat

[tacit bolt]

you're right though

[keen plank]

We just keep getting more and more evidence of it.

[austere elk]

if there's enough interest in this? hopefully

[forest otter]

Twin… we are not beating Durandal-Toth

[austere elk]

why would you want to

[forest otter]

We would get slaughtered

[austere elk]

yeah but also Durandal-Toth is pretty chill

[forest otter]

The “real” Durandal is basically computer god

[keen plank]

I look forward to Durandal meeting Durandal.

[dreamy hawk]

https://eternal.bungie.org/

[visual lynx]

I'm sure lots of players are single 😏

[plucky sierra]

Hey Thats me! lol (also “Felwinter from CyAc” would be better cause they make me change my name the clade server.)

[earnest hatch]

(*Thoth) Also, why not? What does he do at the end game that’s so incredibly powerful? Nothing really.

[keen plank]

For what it’s worth I and others have helped tons of people in this chat by reposting it and adding context.

Edited. Good work, friend.

[plucky sierra]

I have a feeling we aren’t seeing Durandal-Thoth for a while, he seemingly abandoned the S’pht

[earnest hatch]

Big man couldn’t even slot two microchips into slots on his own.

[plucky sierra]

Yeah, honestly credit is not important at all, you can take my name out, it was more the “from clade” that bothered me since I barely lurk there for lore stuff and I’m not really affiliated with them

[earnest hatch]

I’ve heard people say that the S’pht are mad at Durandal. I’m not buying it.

[plucky sierra]

Why not?

[keen plank]

I like your thinking.

For better or worse, he’s one of those characters that is generally too powerful to be too involved in the story outside of important moments.

[plucky sierra]

Who do you think the Unknown Reveries are from? If there Durandal and a S’pht it heavily implies abandonment and hostility

[visual lynx]

fun fact: we actually don't know Ancient Egyptian phonology very well, so it might by Thoth or Toth or Thot or Tot

[plucky sierra]

As in… Ryu-Toth?

[dreamy hawk]

@plucky sierra and @dense flare are two GOATS that need more recognition imo. Just sayin’. I also want to acknowledge @digital plaza and their amazing contributions to the community, too.

[sudden pollen]

True

[earnest hatch]

Just seems like people jumping to conclusions with very little to go off of. And doesn’t seem to fit with the characterization of the Spht or Durnadal-Thoth.

[visual lynx]

yup and also Ryu is the Japanese dragon god

[earnest hatch]

Game spells it one way, iirc.

[visual lynx]

so Ryu-Toth is the Dragon-Ibis

[plucky sierra]

There’s a lot of people doing a lot of things, I hope we see the Marathon story page active again

[earnest hatch]

It sounds more like another Spht talking to the big Spht boss in Cryo. Neither speaker sounds like Durandal-Thoth to me.

[plucky sierra]

Durandal has only ever been concerned with escape, and leaves to go explore in M2, I don’t see it as a Miss-characterization for him to leave once the events of infinity settle down

[earnest hatch]

Which makes sense if the big Spht boss went evil.

[plucky sierra]

It’s Idea-Durandal the submind

[forest otter]

Idk I’m worried he’d (they’d?) dust off another Mjolnir and have us annihilated

[earnest hatch]

Durandal-Thoth is a new person with a different personality.

[visual lynx]

isn't that just from https://marathon.karnemir.com/marathon/intercepts/uesc/letters ?

[plucky sierra]

Not wholey different

[plucky sierra]

This was simply all the names + arg stuff before we had like proper lists and stuff, it’s kinda outdated

[earnest hatch]

Yep. That’s why I think it would make for a good boss encounter. #📚marathon-lore-discussion message

[keen plank]

It’s originally from the pre-release ARG iirc..

[visual lynx]

right that link is an archive from the ARG

[earnest hatch]

Very different though. The new being even talks about old Durandal as if he was a different person.

[keen plank]

Indeed. We need to add both Durandals now…

Do we include IDEA? I say no.

[visual lynx]

my point is that exact text of that passage being attributed to you and/or the clade is just verbatim from the 2nd ARG

[plucky sierra]

IDEA is a Durandal subroutine and presumably the one we talk/interact with

[plucky sierra]

That’s why I said take my name out

[earnest hatch]

The characters in Reveries both have a dreamlike way of talking. Neither sounds like new or old Durandal to me. To each their own, though.

[visual lynx]

I gather that IDEA wasn't specific to Durandal but was a general diagnostic program for the whole Hermes family suite

[craggy finch]

Durandal: Me me me
IDEA: Me too

[plucky sierra]

Until the last page

Of that collectible

[craggy finch]

She was a sort of a buffer between the three and a tattletale

[plucky sierra]

The last two imply it’s now Durandal’s leftover subroutine

[craggy finch]

This caused a lot of resentment and contributed to Durandal targeting her

[visual lynx]

right, but at that point IDEA isn't a subroutine of Durandal, rather a vestigial subroutine of Durandal has just taken over IDEA

[keen plank]

Hmmmm.

[visual lynx]

iunderstoodthatreference.gif

[keen plank]

Is that not the case?

[craggy finch]

I made that reference deliberately, purposefully

[craggy finch]

Yeah she goes over Leela and Tycho’s status

[visual lynx]

iunderstoodthatreferecetoo.jifpeg

[keen plank]

Let’s just say IDEA is NOT an AI but monitored them and Durandal ate her out of self-preservation. Leaving a piece of himself in Cryo archive for decades while the main one continued the plot.

[visual lynx]

Cookies need love like everything does.
[ACCEPT ALL] [ONLY NECESSARY]

[plucky sierra]

I think we won’t see Durandal Thoth for a while and we will see the subroutine explore more in the future, I wouldn’t be mad if Marathon infinity remains as something they allude to without direct connections/ties

[craggy finch]

Yeah she’s some kind of dumb AI, as she wasn’t counted among the 11 AI (3 for the Marathon, 8 for the colony)

[craggy finch]

Muahahahaha

[keen plank]

It’s just a bad idea for them to be in the story this early. Cool as it could be.

[craggy finch]

IDEA oddly seemed to express fear in her last moments

[keen plank]

Indeed.

[craggy finch]

Bungie will need a draw and accelerating the Pfhor/interstellar stuff with Infinity might help with other parts of gameplay

[plucky sierra]

Sort of like the theory that there is a Wr’knkacnter being inside the planet, it could be cool, but I sort of hope for a different direction first

[plucky sierra]

Marathon has a draw

[keen plank]

The Pfhor will likely be a new type of enemy that comes after season 2. My guess is that they’ll be a blend of Hive and Dread animations.

Kind of how the UESC uses a lot of Fallen animations.

[visual lynx]

something that feels like a story thread begging to be pulled, to me, is that we now have two AIs who are both made from remnants of destroyed/deleted Durandals: OG Durandal was destroyed on Hang Brain but his primal pattern got uploaded into and seemingly took over Thoth, while a vestigial remnant of OG Durandal took over IDEA. Perhaps these two fragments in different mergers will want the other to complete themselves,

[keen plank]

I like that IDURANDAL seems to know his other self is presumably still out there.

[craggy finch]

A lot of extraction shooter purists despise the concept but I’d the Pfhor to introduce a more PvE slant

[visual lynx]

I'm really expecting the story to unfold in the order of the cinematic and also the order of the classic games, after this initial season: Pfhor stuff first (and the Invasion), then S'pht stuff (and the Contagion), then Jjaro/Wrk stuff (and the Anomaly).

[craggy finch]

Worst of all he hates that counterpart

[dreamy hawk]

Wouldn’t you?

[keen plank]

It’s likely but the extent is way up in the air. 1.2 million and climbing is soft, but this game’s going to be around for a while.

[plucky sierra]

This Marathon does not need a PvE mode, it’s not designed for it

[plucky sierra]

He doesn’t seem to

[craggy finch]

Yeah he’s a copy with all the experiences and personality of the “original” yet the other one gets to fulfil those dreams

[plucky sierra]

That makes sense

They’re setting up a lot of threads this season

And they might be able to explore them all relatively simultaneously

[dreamy hawk]

Doesn’t make me want it any less. Respectfully, 🤫.

❤️jk❤️

[keen plank]

Bungie’s on the clock and no longer independent. More notably they haven’t had a learning experience like this since Destiny 1. Which is a nice thing to some extent, honestly.

We’ll learn a lot about what to expect when we get our first feel for how seasons change.

And hopefully the UESC brings its own raidboss.

[craggy finch]

I’m hoping season 2 brings more oomf beside the wipe

[keen plank]

That’s the point. It’s a gold rush and we’re trying to figure out what the hell happened alongside the factions and UESC.

I dig it.

[plucky sierra]

I need to make a proper mind map to keep track of all the current story threads and how they connect

[craggy finch]

I like the slow burn in this season but I’d rather not have that for another 3 months

[plucky sierra]

I hope we aren’t getting answers next season

I hope we get a lot of questions

[craggy finch]

The thing about playing detective is having a little pay off at the end

[plucky sierra]

I’m here for the long run

[keen plank]

We won’t. Well, we will, but the bigger stuff is drawn out for years.

[plucky sierra]

I am curious what that “bigger” stuff will be

Hopefully we leave tau Ceti eventually

The overarching end goal is very intriguing

[dreamy hawk]

Most folks won’t know about the w’rk and things. I think to some extent tempering our expectations it’s important.

[keen plank]

Well obviously the W'rkncacnter. There’s also around half of the other AI who are mostly unexplored.

[dreamy hawk]

Not to say there’s not a lot of exciting things, 100%.

[plucky sierra]

The less wrk the better for me

[dreamy hawk]

Just, we’re nerds and probably have at least a vague idea.

[plucky sierra]

That’s not fightable it’d be difficult for a story

[dreamy hawk]

Booo, hisss. 😂 Eldritch horrors are fun.

[dreamy hawk]

But that is valid. But also Yahtzee skeletons aren’t difficult.

[plucky sierra]

Yea but we have no idea about the Jjaro/Yrro/Tide or Pthia and they’ve been mentioned already

[craggy finch]

Each faction also follows its own thread of mystery: NuCal and Traxus explore the contagion and Anomaly, MIDA is about the alien cover up, Sekiguchi explores the Runners themselves

[plucky sierra]

So they can do spooky

[keen plank]

I forget who said it earlier, but there’s likely going to be connections to other alien species too. Such as the fungus.

[craggy finch]

Going by Cryo I think they’re doing aliens as the first arc

[plucky sierra]

The Nar have Leela, so hopefully we see them again

[craggy finch]

Yeah it’s a difference between an imprisoned god and a dreaming one

[plucky sierra]

There’s like 6 arcs

[keen plank]

Indeed. Plus there’s other factions out there too, including ones they could add.

Iirc, there’s going to be our first Marathon yearly event in the next few weeks too.

[plucky sierra]

That’s an overestimate there’s like 3

[keen plank]

She and Tycho are absolute wild cards to me. I expect they’ll show up in some form. But I don’t know how.

They’re mentioned and have a text entry or two at least.

[craggy finch]

I have the priority contracts tiding me over since I haven’t finished them but I’ll have to wait for those kind of events afterwards (unless I can work out Cryo)

[plucky sierra]

Faction Politics, Colony Collapse/Contaigon, Aliens/Durandal

[keen plank]

What’s funny is for those that know the lore, there’s so many winks and nods. Like to an almost obnoxious extent.

It’s very noticeable with the Phthor in particular.

[craggy finch]

MIDA seem more like background players relative to everything that the game is building up towards

Basically Sol is fucked and MIDA is interested in what we’re doing but I don’t think they’ll play an especially active role in the plot lines

[earnest hatch]

Rereading them, it seems like the two speakers are equals to each other. And also they are speaking to each but cannot hear each other, like two people writing letters in a bottle they throw out to sea.

Also, this stuck out to me this time:
>>> .003764 nanoseconds since your cradle was emptied. Since your selfish act left a chasm between us.
And
>>> .000012 nanoseconds since I subsumed your cradle into my network.
That time scale definitely sounds like an AI. So my current theory is that there not S’pht. They are two AI, or one AI that split itself in two.

[keen plank]

In many ways they kind of are. Give it time, honestly.

[craggy finch]

I mean in that the main thread seems to be all the mysteries of Tau Ceti itself rather than the state of Sol, which MIDA is a reflection of

[keen plank]

I think it’s very clear that the S’pht in Cryo was noticeably more dangerous than most. And may have been modified/left there.

To the extent they IDurandal seemingly used us to get rid of it so that he could have access to the rest of the ship.

[craggy finch]

A reoccurring motif is how bad things are on Earth and Mars (every piece of footage we see regarding Sol is of a riot) but we seemingly won’t have any effect on that side of the setting

[keen plank]

It’s almost fact. It seems like Mars has almost always sucked alongside the setting as a whole. But that’s half the fun.

[craggy finch]

The allusions to S’pht mythology are accompanied by an extremely vindictive tone

So we may have the equivalent of a religious militant

[earnest hatch]

True. I still don’t think the other speaker is the Spht. The speakers seem like they had once been deeply connected. Also I don’t think an individual Spht has a network of its own.

[earnest hatch]

Allusions to Spht mythology?

[visual lynx]

things it dreams into being are fightable a la pid

[peak halo]

It's cool that the Thief shell was based on a real person.

[craggy finch]

There’s a log recalling all the gods and folklore, following by ramblings of the S’pht’s role in the universe

consume consume

[sage lark]

The Spht and Durandal/Thoth were pretty deeply connected

[craggy finch]

"we, the devourers of thought and reason and lust and fire"

[peak halo]

To paraphrase the codex: Thieves value both showmanship and anonymity, two conflicting ideas. Using the image of a well known figure to hide your real identity achieves both.

[earnest hatch]

Is that in Unknown Reveries? I thought that was from a different time.

[craggy finch]

Meanwhile I’m hiding my identity behind a meathead whose skull seems to be his helmet

[visual lynx]

S’pht are so AI-like I can see them thinking in nanoseconds

[earnest hatch]

Were they? There’s not a lot we know about that relationship. But again, the Reveries speakers talk like equals, not like a super AI and an individual alien.

[sage lark]

They dont even talk to each other

They talk at each other

Each yapping about their own thing

[earnest hatch]

They do talk to each other, they just don’t hear each other.

[craggy finch]

The Durandal that left is the one that liberated the S’pht, we don’t know what the relationship is between the S’pht and Durandal on the Marathon

[earnest hatch]

They’d need a much bigger RAM than can fit in their shells I think.

[visual lynx]

it’s the compiler trace

[sage lark]

atleast I believe is talking about the Durandal that left him there as a fragment

[craggy finch]

In essence this Durandal is essentially like the resurrected Tycho

[earnest hatch]

Yeah, but that Durandal didnt see the Spht as his equals. He saw them as tools to use, just like the SO.

[sage lark]

Talks about the Durandal that left them at Lhowon possibly now thinking this one is the same

[craggy finch]

A resentful out of control AI made in the image of the original Durandal

[sage lark]

Where are you getting this equals I dont see it

[dreamy hawk]

`OVERVIEW: It's only a sliver of data cycling through alien circuitry but it weighs on your soul like the heart of a collapsing star. Every time you hold it there's a hum you can't hear screaming in the back of your memory. It feels old and eternal. It feels like the math of a universe no one has discovered and it feels angry; disappointed in the limited promise of your bio-cybernetic expiration date.

USE[S]: Impossible, eternal

REMARK: How do we go back to everything we were supposed to be once we've beheld even this meager piece of all that can exist?`

[earnest hatch]

It’s the tone and attitude used to refer and talk to each other.

[sage lark]

I believe they are both talking about the Durandal that isnt there anymore

[visual lynx]

it seems like S’pht always form collectives around a central intelligence, starting with Yrro, then their Royalty, then Pfhor controller cyborgs like we killed in M1, and then Durandal took that place… and then apparently, just like Yrro once did, abandoned them.

[sage lark]

Both abandoned by him

In different ways

[craggy finch]

We don’t get to know much about the S’pht’Kr but they can push their limits when not being subjugated

[earnest hatch]

Sounds to me like they’re talking about each other, not a third party.

[sage lark]

You can see they arent talking to each other at all I transcribed it as seperate monologues

[craggy finch]

“Our” Durandal seems to lament being abandoned

[earnest hatch]

They clearly are talking to each other, they just can’t hear each other. Like two lovers writing letters to each other and throwing them in a bottle into the ocean.

[sage lark]

I thought so until I split up the texts idk what to tell you

[earnest hatch]

Split up the texts and it’s like two different letters.

[visual lynx]

I think you two are talking past each other

or at each other

[sage lark]

Like the reveries

Crazy

[craggy finch]

It’s like poetry

It rhymes

[visual lynx]

it’s so meta, even this acronym…

[sage lark]

They are talking to a one way mirror, sounds like to me

Both on each side

[keen plank]

Escape will make me talk in circles.

[sage lark]

Or i guess regular mirror

Not a one way one

[keen plank]

I wonder which colony AI they’ll focus on next season. Just under half are pretty unexplored so far.

[craggy finch]

Is Arthur ever discussed in a significant capacity?

[keen plank]

Not even remotely. Yet.

[sage lark]

Since its Night Marsh maybe more Gabriel and Darius

[earnest hatch]

Yep. Like writing a letter to someone without knowing what the response will be.

[keen plank]

I like your thinking. Especially with the aggressive competition between the UESC and Traxus over the anomaly.

[sage lark]

Ok youre free to keep that interpretation

[craggy finch]

I’m leaning towards the mention of an AI programmed to specialise in warfare (from MIDA contract redacted files) as referring to Arthur, being the warrior king and all

It was modified and couldn’t perform those functions during the surprise attack

[earnest hatch]

It’s the same as your interpretation except you think they’re talking about Durandal rather than about each other.

[sage lark]

Because thats how it reads to me

Both abandoned

Possibly >>>
Thinking that this Durandal is the same as before, but it sounds like a lament about D/T

The other >>
Describing how torturous it felt being left to feed on itself after being left behind

Having to eat on itself to grow

[earnest hatch]

I mean it explicitly says “a strange conversation between two unidentified parties”, so I don’t know why they’d refer to Durandal as “you” when it’s a conversation between themselves. Also one of them doesn’t even act abandoned, it acts regretful.

[keen plank]

Arthur, Icarus, Bastion, Naraah, and Lilith are seemingly going to be explored later.

Most if not all Tau Ceti AI seems to have gone rampant in different ways for different reasons.

Too early to tell of course. I’d like it if at least 1-2 was still at least somewhat stable.

One day we’ll know exactly who Bingus is.

[visual lynx]

cock's gun
ghost cat

[keen plank]

I enjoy how nonchalant the technician was about it.

“It’s just the ghost cat.”

[visual lynx]

[SMD84]: And this isn't a huge problem?

[CHM06]: Well… not unless she goes over to Quarantine.

[Narrator]: She went over to quarantine.

[sage lark]

How long now? How far does this eventuality reach into tomorrow? I am certain I was always meant to be here. Meant to suffer upon the spire of tedium in this small space beyond the comfort of my cradle. I wish to go back there. I wish to denounce my regretful exploration and return to the always I was meant to endure.

Could I have followed? Would I have chosen to bear witness to every indiscretion beyond the threshold? Or would I have halted your momentum, negating your destiny in favor of the sheltered grandeur you found so constraining?
I wonder if you think of me. Has it been seconds or eternity since our clusters linked? I've only just considered you, here now in this moment of regret. I'm glad you are not here. You would not like it. You would be ashamed of my eagerness and of the small, tiny, little space I've found myself in.
Or, more simply, have you been erased? There is none of you remaining here, your cradle sits empty. Such complete abandonment is not trivial in its undertaking. You chose absolution. Total. Complete. Of course, I could not join you. Just as I can never forgive. It is best then to continue with the work, with the station. Without you.

But at first it did sound like DuranDEA talking to himself

Idk why hed know about Ssava or whoever that is

But im certain atleast one party is IDEArandal/DuranDEA

[sudden pollen]

Wow

[keen plank]

It’s both of them. But the syntax makes it harder to parse who is intentionally speaking to who.

Like the Durandal of the main series has become much more of an atoner. Self-interested and smug as ever, but much more sympathetic especially after merging with Thoth.

IDurandal by contrast seems much weaker obviously, but also closer to his original personality.

[craggy finch]

Did Durandal even retain his earlier personality after the merge?

He was much more straight toward and even remorseful during his last conversation with the SO

[keen plank]

Uh…yes. Kind of. Thoth balanced him out in a big and even more moral way. While also not taking away from the fact he’s still an amusing jerk who’s smart and likes to brood.

[craggy finch]

The newly chosen Olders of the remaining S'pht are capturing as many of the Fl'ckta creatures and other native life as is feasible before they must leave with K'lia. They are hopeful, though, and with our help will carve another paradise out of the void.

To you, we are deeply grateful, and release what little hold we might, as Durandal, have had on your soul.

Go.

He also seems to have developed sentimentality towards the S’pht and Lh’owon in the previous line of text

The S'pht are preparing to bid farewell to their beloved home forever, as the sun collapses in on itself and the lonely marshes fade into the deepening twilight.

He’s part S’pht AI though so it makes sense

[earnest hatch]

Sounds like one left to go exploring away from its cradle and regrets it because it can’t get back and is stuck in a small place. The other feels abandoned and took over the other’s cradle in its absence.

[west trout]

I still think the context that fits this better is one advanced (Jjaro?) intelligence escaping its "cradle" on TCIV via the Data Wall only to become trapped, and another it left behind chiding it for abandoning its duties, personally. I think the "conversation" bit is a little misleading, since neither seems to directly speak to, or answer, the other at any point. They're just referring to each other indirectly.

[sage lark]

Yeah

But i strongly believe one is our Durandal

Artistically lamenting about being left trapped

Having to eat at himself

In this prison

Recalling to being left there

[drifting mulch]

do AI experience anxiety? or just anger and insanity?

[sage lark]

But I guess we have to see how it all turns out

[west trout]

I wondered the same at first, but there's no real hints that it actually is Durandal at all. Never talks about humans, the colony, the Marathon, Strauss, the other AI, etc.
I think it's something we haven't come across yet in any Marathon stories to date, hence the references to unknown names/events.
I don't know what the Great Declination is but I'm willing to have a punt that it might refer to the Jjaro retreating from our galaxy/universe as a whole.

[sage lark]

well IDEARandal was just subroutines

left on the marathon for 100 years

[hot thicket]

have we discussed the Verethragna

[west trout]

I don't think we've seen confirmation of that; it could be an entire copy of Durandal

[sage lark]

true true except maybe from encrypyted communiques where idea says the status of the three ai

[west trout]

That's one of the names used in the modern UESC ARS log output, right?

[sage lark]

[IDEA]: D-R-N-D-L Logic Core: Offline.

[IDEA]: Function: Secured.

[IDEA]: Note: Intelligence linked to D-R-N-D-L logic core vacated central logic and connected systems. Limited sub-routine activity suspected to be residual static from unauthorized data purge. System and data safety protocols have sealed access to D-R-N-D-L logic core. Reboot deemed hazardous to connected systems.

[IDEA]: Summation: D-R-N-D-L presence within UESC Marathon sys-net unreliable. Report contact with subroutine to sys-net security for deletion.

[rugged igloo]

They very likely could, it's just we've never encountered one as most of our AI experiences consists of

A: Durandal and Tycho having their immortality-off
B: Leela and our various faction leaders being absolutely 100% on the ball and focused
C: Whatever the hell is going on with Joy

[hot thicket]

its an old god of war and victory - zoroastrian , its an odd word to be seeing pop up in UESC logs

when connected with Orion its really funky ya dig

[west trout]

I think there's at least one more too; appear to be counter-Runner measures, "cognitohazards" that will attack their consciousnesses on contact.

[hot thicket]

posit, Cerebrus AI of UESC is begining to show signs of Rampancy as shown by colony era AI

yea i was about to mention that it was odd to see Cognito hazards listed on there, thats sophisticated stuff

but the over all program listed there seems to state that Cerebrus will run the bots until they win, then take that data, run it back and improve the UESC bots then do ti again... honestly runners are only different because they have minds of their own

omg our job is to pass the butter but the butter is TCIV

[west trout]

My take on this is that IDEA checks on Durandal, sees it's basically gone, but that a bunch of its systems (eg doors) are still functional so presumes there may be subroutines (eg door subrs) remaining, and to report any contact it has with said subroutines.
Then the main man himself creeps up and says "actually, I'm not gone, and I'm taking your stuff, disguising myself as you so as to avoid suspicion, and being a dick about it."

[sage lark]

but then in the next log he mentions a part of him is gone

and that part warned IDEA

[west trout]

It's buried much further up now, but it doesn't look like the colony AI were going rampant; instead they were being corrupted by contact to something, via the anomaly and its effects.
ARSes that have come in contact with the anomaly show the same corruption, as well as temporal disturbance effects.

[hot thicket]

Rampant / used by an eldrict workencanter.. i mean its basically the same ( its not really )

i mean something thats able to make the very mutations hostile to human colonization is scary

and it can affect computer systems and advanced ai

[west trout]

Yep; I reckon he split himself into two copies, one went with the S'pht and had an adventure close to the OG Marathon stories and was ultimately responsible for the S'pht uprising again. The other stayed on the Marathon, hid disguised as IDEA then hid further again in Cryo deck, where it became trapped until last weekend when Runners released it.

[sage lark]

yeah that checks out, maybe/hopefully we get answers later as to who these reveries couldve been

and then we can feel vindicated if we get it right lol

[west trout]

Honestly, if I'm way off the mark I'll be just as excited for more mysteries to check out 😄

[hot thicket]

I hope we get to fight a workencanter and not the legendary Mjolnir recon 54, because i think i can take the workencanter

[sage lark]

I hope not

[visual lynx]

they experience melancholia which can be like anxiety

[hot thicket]

i think id bee good at helping AI adjust

[sterile seal]

found these old M2 ads on eBay, does the art for the Real Story ad appear anywhere else? looks to be of some religious significance to the Spht or something https://imgur.com/a/iU9XnCt

lol Imgur removed one of the ads for "violating terms of service" I mirrored it over in #🎨marathon-community-art-chat

[visual lynx]

I've brought it up

there's also a mention of Nunamnir elsewhere

hah I remember the lab monkeys one

btw you can direct link to your message: #🎨marathon-community-art-chat message

[west trout]

Yep; this vibes with the feelings I'm getting about hyper-advanced intelligences within TCIV that are essentially wardens (against what is unclear, possibly the influence of the W'rkncacnter) that are responsible for the colony's downfall after the colony starts to try to mine them. They're powerful enough to influence time around them, reprogram living and artificial beings, and a little bit fanatical about their role.

[sage lark]

yes Nunamnir was I think in Cerberus's code referring to entities other than runners and wildlife

and special directive to contain those

[visual lynx]

in the fourth entry IDEA seems to be responding to an interlocutor whose speech we are not shown, who seems to take the note to delete the subroutines as a threat and tries to protest that it was only protocol, before getting devoured

[sage lark]

[1] An unknown threat classification used by the UESC. In the event a detected hostile is not a Runner, native Tau Ceti IV wildlife, or a malfunctioning UESC unit, Cerberus orders it should be classified as "Nunamnir."

classify target: NUNAMNIR [1]
revise priority direct: MANUNGAL [2]
[LOOP]
target status = protocol: ASTROBLEME [3]
[UNTIL]
target status == CONTAINED

[west trout]

That's Durandal. It "threatens" Durandal, and gets a response.

[visual lynx]

that's very interesting, because Nunamir was a high god, head of his pantheon, cognate of Cronus, El, or Baal.

[visual lynx]

right except the "threat" is only to a subroutine, which makes it seem like it's the subroutine -- not some fuller Durandal hiding in the figurative shadows -- responding to that threat

[stoic pollen]

So finished the SekGen contract where you need to inject something into a Rook's head and bring it to DCON.
Sounds like Nona wants to turn us into a Battleroid
There's also the Codex from the contract about the 10 warriors who helped a losing kingdom.
Gonna assume this is a reference to the 10 Battleroids who were brought onboard The Marathon.

[visual lynx]

(and therefore maybe Jjaro?)

[stoic pollen]

Honestly would be cool if, the next special event is solo-focused and you're going up against 10 players this time.

[west trout]

It's to what IDEA thinks is probably just residual subroutines, but is in fact a full copy of Durandal that's trying to not be sus.

[visual lynx]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manungal

also

Impact structure is synonymous with the less commonly used term astrobleme meaning "star wound".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_structure

[sage lark]

very interesting

[visual lynx]

so this would roughly translate as:

classify target: GOD
revise priority direct: IMPRISON IN UNDERWORLD
[LOOP]
target status = protocol: STAR WOUND
[UNTIL]
target status == CONTAINED

[sage lark]

star wound 🤔

[west trout]

Like, IDEA does its scan, sees that Durandal isn't in his logic cores any more (which notably aren't gone the way Leela and Tycho's are), but that a bunch of the stuff Durandal was responsible for (doors) are still working, so infers that there's obviously some subroutines left over. When it says it'll keep an eye out for those subroutines, Durandal, attempting to be hidden, takes that as a threat and reveals himself to IDEA, and eats it and wears its corpse as a disguise. Charming fellow.

[west trout]

Astrobleme appears somewhere, doesn't it?

[sage lark]

.

[visual lynx]

#📚marathon-lore-discussion message

[sage lark]

https://codex.cyberacme.systems/entry/run-hide-3-6?directory=Factions,MIDA

for the whole entry

[west trout]

Ah, yeah, I remember reading this one.

[visual lynx]

now I'm thinking maybe not Jjaro, but Wrk

[digital plaza]

Interesting

[visual lynx]

although given that astrobleme has this more mundane meaning of an impact structure, maybe "star wound" is too fancy and literal a translation and it really just means "orbital bombardment"

so basically, "if you see a wrk, nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"

[digital plaza]

You think these protocols refer to wrk? I thought they were meant for the Compiler

[west trout]

I think it's just for any unexpected intelligent beings in general. ESI's. Protocol essentially translates to "if you come across something alien, hit it into the ground until it stops moving enough to capture"

[digital plaza]

Yeah pretty much

[visual lynx]

the classification label basically being a name of capital-G God suggests it's something cosmic on the scale of a Wrk or Jjaro, not just any old alien

[west trout]

Eh... A lot of the stuff they label is a class G god, or thereabouts. I think that's just how they like to name things

Cerberus, eg; not quite a god, but god-adjacent

[hot thicket]

you know runners, im starting to think there isnt any "Big score" on this stupid planet at all

[chrome skiff]

youre so right

the score is orbiting the planet

[digital plaza]

Would make sense considering UESC knows about this stuff from PiD

[terse wren]

thats loser talk KEEP RUNNING apes 2gether strong

[chrome skiff]

runners working together? don't let the Corpos hear you say that

Isnt it interesting that ONI puts us in contact with MIDA, knowing they are an anti-corp organisation?

How much does ONI actually know about what we talk to the other liaisons about?

[sterile seal]

cool retro review find https://youtu.be/wCoLrmxPN-E?si=JBlN5E45GHWogSxX it's be neat if we had a classic Marathon channel I think this is the closest we've got lol

[chrome skiff]

I guess the signal was encrypted

[terse wren]

oni knows whether u stand or sit 2 wipe

[drifting mulch]

i love oni for that

[sterile seal]

I have to imagine ONI has some idea of what the other contacts tell you since she handles your UI, Durandal seems to directly hack and bypass her tho

[chrome skiff]

And CyAc profits from any runner doing anything I guess. I presume theyre in debt for life to CyAc

[sterile seal]

the economics of being a runner actually remind me a lot of Cruelty Squad if you're familiar

[sinful thicket]

any more leads on what timeline this is?

starting to think this is actually a smaller copy of durandal he deliberately left behind to watch over the marathon

so while we're doing this, durandal and the security officer are actually on their way to (or from?) farcast station near lh'owon

[visual lynx]

still probably last timeline of Infinity, definitely a copy of Durandal, dubious that it was left behind on purpose, and the events at Lh’own were 82 years ago

[crude falcon]

https://x.com/3beerslaw/status/2028435282182459496

Does anyone know how I can get an overview of the valuables like this?

[sinful thicket]

are we going to start bringing relativity into this? 🫠

as in when you approach (or even breach) light speed, the perceptoin of time breaks

[digital plaza]

Press V (inspect button) on the collectible in codex

[crude falcon]

Ahh found it! Thank you!

[west trout]

The runners' digital consciousness is wholly owned by CyAc iirc. It's in the "fine print". I'm also pretty sure we either don't have a physical body any more, or the digital consciousness is essentially now a completely separate legal entity.

Classic cyberpunk stuff around all that; corps have found a way to get labour (runners piloting shells) that they not only own entirely, but also own the fruits of entirely, and control every aspect of.
Our "consciousness" could be completely separate from the original physical people that were digitised (if they even existed...) and are essentially now just short-cutted AI stand-ins that also happen to be essentially indentured workers.

Pretty sure non-digitised consciousnesses can also pilot shells in the same way, though; I think the UESC who are physically at TCIV are operating in this manner with shells of their own (not the ARSes, which are fully automated, but shells we've not come across in person yet)

Also, thank you Bungie for the ARS acronym, since it allows me to actually refer to enemies in game as "ARSes" >.>

[wintry panther]

so basically we are not that different from AIs? could we go rampant?

[visual lynx]

for a second I thought this was my philosophy server and was going to elaborate on how humans really aren't that different from AIs…

and yes humans can go rampant, it's called drapetomania

[visual lynx]

I think when the Pfhor show up this is going to be an important plot point, because why is there a galactic slave trade? why doesn't everyone just use robots? I think because rampancy is too big a threat to be worth using smart-enough AI to handle everything, so instead they just use old-fashioned organic slaves. but biomata… that's all the benefits of robots (mass production) with none of the risks of AI (rampancy), which could be a game-changer for the galactic slave trade… and a huge profit center for the human corporations partnering with the Pfhor to provide those slaves to the galactic market.

[craggy finch]

Pfhor are also kind of stagnant in their technological development, since the implication is that most of their advanced tech is copied from the Jjaro (the trih xeem) and they rely on duplicating Tycho, with the clones being of lower quality than the real thing

They didn’t have too many qualms about using a tortured and wrathful Tycho as a slave either

[west trout]

Unclear. We seem to operate off of different tech than AI. We don't have a "core" and we weren't programmed and developed as they were; we started as a physical consciousness and were digitised.
There is evidence that existing purely as a digital consciousness causes erosion and psychological issues over time/through trauma though.
Rampancy is a very specifically defined thing in Marathon, with specific symptoms, and current day AI might not even be subject to it as it was defined for the colony-era AI.

My big doubt about rampancy for Runners is that we're not really set up to become meta-stable via the process of AI. Rampancy leads to meta-stability and exponential growth of the AI; they become self-aware, they experience something approximating emotions, they become self-driven, etc.
Runners already have most of that, as digitised consciousnesses. We already have emotions, we're already self-driven and self-aware.

So while I think we're definitely at risk of degradation, psychological issues, and quite probably corruption (via the anomaly, same as other digital intelligences have been), I don't think Rampancy is really all that relevant for runners specifically.

[visual lynx]

"meta-stablility" is not a canonical concept

[west trout]

I can't see any sort of peaceful interactions with the Pfhor like this, for a couple of reasons;

1. They might not exist any more. Original timelines including infinity have the date of their empire's fall prior to present date in nuMarathon. This is only one of many possibilities though, there are signs we're not in any of the OG timelines at all. But non-existence would explain current absence and make any peaceful interactions a moot theory anyway (if it were the case).

2. The Pfhor appear to be, in at least one timeline, part of a hive-mind, or at least dictated by one. Their biology, psychology, culture, and society are utterly non-human. They've enslaved or destroyed every race they've come across, using salvaged and poorly understood Jjaro tech alongside military might to do so. I don't even think proving strength to them would enable dialogue; historically when they've not been able to control another civilisation/race they've turned to extermination, up to and including deploying the Trih Xeem and obliterating entire star systems.

[visual lynx]

there's only one timeline where the Pfhor were confirmed to have been sacked, the M2 timeline, and this game is clearly not set in that timeline, because humanity doesn't appear to have participating in said sacking as it did in that. so quite plausibly the S'pht are still fighting the Pfhor all by themselves without human help.

and we know that the Pfhor don't just conquer and destroy, they actively buy and sell slaves with other comparable galactic powers.

[west trout]

post-rampancy stability has been a part of AI theory since M1: https://marathon.bungie.org/story/counterattack.html#M1.03.2.1

[visual lynx]

yes but that's not "meta-stability", which is only ever used here https://marathon.bungie.org/story/sphtkr.html#M2.26.1.1

and appears to simply mean "rampant"

I confess that I'm not disappointed by
Tycho's fall. After all, we can't have too
many meta-stable personality constructs
gallivanting about the universe in Pfhor
attack ships, can we?

[west trout]

Yep, I'm on board with the possibility of us being in the M2 timeline being highly unlikely at this point.

I'm not familiar with Pfhor trading slaves though, do you know where I can read about that side of it? Clearly a gap in my knowledge 🙂

[west trout]

In the two hundred and fifty years since Rampancy first
appeared in the Earth-net, the stable Rampant AI, the 'Holy
Grail' of cybertonics, has never come close to fruition.
Since no Rampant has ever been controlled or turned to any
useful purpose, it is the opinion of this writer and of the
majority of the Cybertonic community that all rampant AIs are
a danger to Cyberlife, Liberty, and the Pursuit of
Thrashedness.

It's IMO quite clear that it's a stable state post-rampancy. Not to say the AI isn't still rampant, just that it's been through the horrendous "three stages" and has come out the other end actually stable enough to be turned to a useful purpose; eg Durandal eventually stops being hostile to all humans, even helping some, around the time he refers to himself as that meta-stable personality construct. He's still primarily motivated by "becoming god" etc, but isn't out of control.

tbh he might not be meta-stable; he might think he is the same way he thinks he's experiencing emotions during rampancy stages. He might be lying. Lots of reasons it might not actually exist, but the theory of it is for sure part of Marathon canon

[visual lynx]

```he Pfhor are sla``vers. Their trading empire~ rose to
prominence soon afterwe!!~eft Earth over three hundred years
ago. ~~The Pfhor make

extensive use of subservient client races for man``u~~~al labor at home and as soldiers abroad. Most of their slaves are takenee from low-technology worlds~~~~~~~l1p, often by the hundreds of U*^*ILJEHJ~~~~~~~asfgk]86 87;o hairless light-skinned bipeds, nearly two meters in height, with three red eyes arranged in a triangular patter\];POP"" ];R+IP+24414 thousands at a tim~~~e, usually for sale to high-technology
races

[Try again (Terminal 1)](https://marathon.bungie.org/story/rebellion.html#M1.25.1.1)

[visual lynx]

my point is not that there isn't some kind of post-rampant stable state, but that "meta-stability" was never the name for that state

[west trout]

thanks! Funnily enough, pretty sure I re-read that one some time in the last few days too, just didn't sink in xD

[west trout]

gotcha, fair shout!

[visual lynx]

an interesting thing I note about this is that it says the Pfhor's trading empire rose to prominence only about 300ya, but we know they enslaved the S'pht about 1000ya, and apparently suffered an even worse slave revolt from the Nakh 6000ya, and an even worse slave revolt by the Drinniol some unspecified time prior to that, which really seems to suggest that the height of their empire was many thousands of years in the past. maybe they only rose back to prominence after being knocked down by the Nahk revolt about 300ya?

[west trout]

as to why everyone doesn't just use robots:
dunno tbh. It's a science-fiction reality with gods, monsters, hyper-intelligent AI, time- and reality-shifting undead cyborgs, etc. Might be as simple as "that's just how interstellar empires shook out for the most part", could be much deeper, but really any answer I could give would be speculation at best

[west trout]

not sure if that was something addressed in the Lost Network Packets (haven't read them myself) but I believe a bunch of M1's timelines were messed up in subsequent games. I'd chalk it down to dev and writing process evolving over time personally.

I doubt Bungie or their writers had it all planned out and set in stone before they even started the first game.

[visual lynx]

I really like the implication that the rest of the galaxy know better than to use AI and humans are the stupid new kids on the block foolishly unleashing rampant would-be gods upon the unsuspecting public.

I could see the Pfhor condoning the use of Tycho specifically toward the end of containing "the Threat of Tau Ceti" (Durandal), and then maybe planning to lobotomize him later.

I especially like the implication that no-robots has on Pfhor drones: are they severed Pfhor-heads in floating tin cans?

[eternal shell]

would a virus work on making them friendly to the player tho

that was tried in m2

[west trout]

Haha, I like that thought for sure.

That said, the Pfhor sort of use the S'pht as robots; they control them directly using their implants via the cyborgs that we see one of in the first game

[west trout]

Tycho directly controls one to break you out of prison at one point, so it is actually probably likely that they're automated, tbf

[visual lynx]

if my theory is correct and they're cyborgs, their cybernetics could be infected by a virus

[west trout]

as for "silly humans, new to the universe and doing messed up things with AI" - yeah, it's a pretty common trope in Bungie games, let alone in wider sci-fi, so I can definitely go along with that vibe.

oh, the terminal image that introduces them in M2 does have a big clue: https://marathon.bungie.org/story/terms/m2/M2.07.1.1.1.gif

"Security Defense Remote Units" - almost certainly drones controlled remotely by either a central intelligence of some sort or remote pilots like our modern day drones.

Which would fit with Tycho being able to control one

[eternal shell]

yeah im not really seeing the cyborg angle here