#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
hushed comet
wind furnace
hands + neck is quite good
problem with unity on neck is finality
finality only has back/chest
hushed comet
I feel like avoiding as many 285 slots as possible will be the play
wind furnace
and neck + back is quite a bit behind
hushed comet
And tier slots ofc. Haven’t looked super deep into loot table
wind furnace
for m+
pale jetty
When is legion?
hushed comet
March 15
hushed comet
Gonna be a rough week
wind furnace
don't want to put preasure on you
but assassinaiton goes from 16.05 to 16.3k with the tw items
so, no biggie if you don't get them
hushed comet
Oh god fuu don’t say that
So much dps 
I’m joking
But if I can get time off work I’m gonna farm
Are trinkets in raidbots yet?
vagrant glade
but assassinaiton goes from 16.05 to 16.3k with the tw items
Tw items?
pale jetty
We want aa ring?
robust lotus
nova nexus
that shot through the roof for fury (which is all about haste again)
figured faeass maybe good
wind furnace
maybe outlaw too
nova nexus
yea
wind furnace
i hope they did not use dropoptimizer to find it
nova nexus
i went off bloodmallet
wind furnace
ahh that seems fine then
nova nexus
he has 9.2 stuff based off github submissions
nova nexus
well he took the apl submissions and ran the sims off those
bronze fog
Are they adding more dungeons to timewalking?
nova nexus
i just didn’t remember seeing that trinket being a banger, but necro fury loves haste
wind furnace
Are they adding more dungeons to timewalking?
no
bronze fog
Because chaos talisman is from violet hold
nova nexus
odd. not sure why it would get pulled then. not sure where his list is coming from.
loud oriole
will we play PV conduit at m+ now? i'll have to rebind my backstack, don't have the fingers to press it at Shift+G
pale jetty
Yes for prio damage, but unless you're pushing high keys it doesn't matter
wind furnace
i am somewhat excited for people to try out nightstalker and share their experience
pale jetty
In m+?
loud oriole
i'll bind it to T and replace with the cheap shot
pale jetty
I feel like nightstalker could be okay-ish for fortified
left storm
Is there a huge difference back stabbing in dance to not?
pale jetty
But sub kinda feels unplayable in m+ without shadow focus on bosses
Since you're also in nado
pale jetty
Is there a huge difference back stabbing in dance to not?
Yes
left storm
wasnt there conditions to BSing in dance like 3 seconds of dance left or something like that?
pale jetty
If you don't, you're wasting pv stacks
wind furnace
But sub kinda feels unplayable in m+ without shadow focus on bosses
it feels worse because it is ^^
pale jetty
You stab when in blades+dance or in last 3 sec of dance iirc
left storm
ok thanks
pale jetty
And max stacks ofc
left storm
right right
pliant minnow
i am somewhat excited for people to try out nightstalker and share their experie...
i just want to play it for the movespeed QOL lol
nova nexus
use a SL speed gem
wind furnace
i mean nightstalker is a trade off
delicate osprey
dont worry fuu i will play NS most likely
wind furnace
you trade off pure st for slightly better funnel/cleave
nova nexus
I hope we get a better talent update than BFA and SL gave us.
pale jetty
Nightstalker could be better overall if you do pulls into bosses
wind furnace
i mean NS does pull ahead in dungeon slice
and you could argue DS has quite some single target
pale jetty
But the vast majority of players don't run in groups that play around funnel
delicate osprey
you will already swim in dances even on cleave
wind furnace
i don't think anyone will play NS casually
nova nexus
but is it going to pull ahead for what your group needs are … not likely.
wind furnace
because its hard to play
pale jetty
I mean I know I'll be playing NS a lot in dungeons like halls etc
I always have funnel in halls with exception to last boss
wind furnace
your single target will also go up when you play PV
pale jetty
And funneling the shards is just too important when I'm playing with unga Bunga hunter and ww
wind furnace
so it somewhat balances out
wind furnace
i mean, unsure if Stiletto works well in certain dungeons
pale jetty
Like top
You get to funnel on first boss for a bit yeah and then that's it
There is no other good spot for sub in that whole dungeon basically
nova nexus
ngl I’d love so see some crazy cdr shenanigans with outlaw
delicate osprey
is it really true the cdr only lasts for 45 secs?
wind furnace
i haven't played on ptr, so unsure
delicate osprey
i did play but they changed some things
vagrant glade
what is aa ring?
and when will the timewalking unlock, and how does it roll at high item level? as i have only ever seen timewalking drop at like 180
plucky storm
what is aa ring?
Court of stars has a ring that increases auto damage
plucky storm
and when will the timewalking unlock, and how does it roll at high item level? a...
Legion is special and gives you a mythic+ key you can valor the drops
vagrant glade
o damn, when does that come into play?
wind furnace
what is aa ring?
it does not for subtlety, but sin/outlaw do like the ring
time walking comes up 15. march
So you want to get the ring and countermeasure (trinekt)
what means, a lot of ppl will spam low keys to get those items
vagrant glade
can you run it multiple times?
vagrant glade
will those items be as strong on say fury warrior etc
wind furnace
i have no idea how strong they are on fury
but they are worth quite a bit
so worth farming on outlaw/assassination
wind furnace
subtlety don't rly want them
need to check if venthyr wants the aa ring, but kyrian does not
vagrant glade
k
mellow urchin
are you hyped about the water?
nova nexus
water walking hype in the chat
nova nexus
my box did not let me down. useless neck and bracers. lol
astral dragon
are you hyped about the water?
do we need to get waterwalking mount?
mellow urchin
you can WALK on it
oh
mellow urchin
ye
wind furnace
necrolord does not want to sim:
XD
also look at this big gains for night fae:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/okrDwSfcE1QiHML57azgja
winged fiber
from what the auto atk ring?
pale jetty
court of stars
mellow urchin
from what the auto atk ring?
yuh
wind furnace
but venthyr gained like 0.6%?
0.2%
so ye:
kyrian - no gain
venthyr - 0.6%
night fae - 0.2%
necro - cant't sim atm because sim is crashing
mellow urchin
dont think you have to sim necro ngl
wind furnace
i just try to keep all 4 profiles up to date and as good as possible
fair vortex
i just try to keep all 4 profiles up to date and as good as possible
Not the hero we deserve but the hero we need lol. Fr though thanks for all the work you put in dude. I definitely learn a lot from you and push in here
astral dragon
patch day, haha
simming on new patches fun
astral dragon
god i have to farm vault and cos again
1 week to do 100 dungeons
raven sphinx
there's prob a trinket in new raid better than the vault one
winged fiber
you underestimate fcm
astral dragon
likely sin/outlaw likes fcm, possibly venthyr sub. but yeah we'll know for sure in like 1-2 weeks
when we can sim raid trinkets properly, maybe tuning too
winged fiber
when is timewalking anyways
winged fiber
what about na
astral dragon
ur 1 day ahead so
astral dragon
i guess wfr dont care about legion tw items?
winged fiber
prob not
astral dragon
i think that shit comes every 6months right
winged fiber
race will be done that week so
knotty halo
unless the game calendar is wrong march 15th is pet battle legion isnt until april 12th
it goes in the BC>wrath>cata>MOP>wod>legion
knotty halo
maybe they changed it with patch i guess check again tomorrow when EU gets patch
pale jetty
wait where tf is legion tw anyways on NA
knotty halo
April 12th atm
knotty halo
yee
pale jetty
tf
barren forge
it was on the 15
pale jetty
and they removed that?
nova nexus
this is what it looks like on NA
barren forge
guess they reset the rotation
astral dragon
pale jetty
bro
barren forge
rip
pale jetty
im about to BUG REPORT
barren forge
yeah p f'n dumb to change the dates
nova nexus
i'm sorry to be the supplier of the bad news. beta testing NA isnt easy
pale jetty
finals in april -.-
astral dragon
checking wowhead
nova nexus
what is wowhead going to tell you? i'm literally in the game
nova nexus
astral dragon
barren forge
its been set on the 15 for awhile. it changed with patch drop.
knotty halo
if 10.0 doesnt come out before august then we will have 2 legion TW rotattions this tier
pale jetty
10.0 isnt coming out before august lmao
barren forge
been trying to schedule my work vaca aroun dit
knotty halo
theres another in aug
pale jetty
10.0 is going to be at the very earliest like 2023 jan
idc about the one in august though regardless
i wanted countermeasure for early prog
astral dragon
maybe they did it on purpose so u cant get it for prog
barren forge
get a totem
astral dragon
astral dragon
iqd 
barren forge
bleh
pale jetty
if only tickling ballsack wasnt hard nerfed
nova nexus
heroic OWS is still better than any other trinket for warriors except mythic version
oddly haven't seen a single warrior asking for it to get a dagger nerf
pale jetty
i think that's mainly because they're not keeping it
warriors will eventually replace OWS
hushed comet
wait what happened
pale jetty
sub rogue will never replace eon
hushed comet
legion TW changed?
pale jetty
yes
barren forge
yeap
pale jetty
it's april 12 now instead of march 15
hushed comet
april 12 doesn't specify legion dungeons
astral dragon
was supposed to be this slot here
hushed comet
it says level 50 dungeons
pale jetty
what
astral dragon
now its here
pale jetty
why
astral dragon
pale jetty
im guessing EU will face the same thing
astral dragon
maybe to cater towards the WFR not having time to do legion timewalking
or for people to not have these items for early prog
idk
pale jetty
couldve just moved it one week
nova nexus
or they know the items are good and spreading out power gains
pale jetty
instead of one month
astral dragon
yeah thats my latter explanation
pale jetty
is it just me or is disc like dying
nova nexus
in a game that is content starved, it doesnt make sense to have something people are looking forward to right on top of your new content
barren forge
timed 19 will give me a 15 next week?
pale jetty
just time a 20 to be safe
nova nexus
barren forge
lol okay
nova nexus
i mean we have no way of knowing what blizzard will determine as the adjustment level
barren forge
yeah thats true.
nova nexus
so you do the highest key you can
nova nexus
speculation is just 🔮
pale jetty
31 with no dom gems whatsoever now will be a bit more aids
nova nexus
just stack avoidance and leech gear
pale jetty
JUST
astral dragon
its rly good they let u upgrade lower ilvl tier to higher ilvl or w/e
so u can keep tetiaries
but its a curse in disguise, now theyll make me run normal+hc every week until end of time
acoustic cobalt
does anybody have some kind of chart that compares the relative difficulty of m+ key level in s2 vs s3?
winged fiber
astral dragon
just for that
winged fiber
oof
astral dragon
winged fiber
it's not till april now?
winged fiber
well at least you get a real week off i guess 
bing relaxing
astral dragon
m+ prison instead
winged fiber
lmao fr
astral dragon
iqd totem soleah, phial pox, anything else decent from m+?
silk gyro
iqd totem soleah, phial pox, anything else decent from m+?
Dagger for MH assa maeby ?
astral dragon
damn i dont even wanna think about sin when i got 2x dagger on sub
but yeah 272 mainhand is good
winged fiber
The shadow trinket from dos is decent for venth
silk gyro
damn i dont even wanna think about sin when i got 2x dagger on sub
But prototype Boss sin musst be pog 
astral dragon
weps probably the last item to upgrade, wanna do trinkets first cause used on all specs
also most expensive
silk gyro
Do they capping the points again , or ffa this time ?
astral dragon
the thing is, by the time u farmed all the base items u want, u most likely have more than enough valor
but its capped anyways so
slow upgrades
feral schooner
The capped thing isn't bad imo
Gives them more value and a strategic element on what to use
Long term gains or short term
astral dragon
yeah also uncapped literally only benefits ppl that can play 24/7
imagine WFR if uncapped valor
feral schooner
Yup
feral schooner
imagine WFR if uncapped valor
It's already degen stuff with all the bucket chars
astral dragon
for normal ppl it would help so much in clearing faster/easier, which is why i assume they have the cap in first place
feral schooner
Yeah it's fine to cap. There is still pvp the first weeks imo to grind to get more chances for tier piece
wind furnace
imagine WFR if uncapped valor
tbh the amount of time they put in can't rly get higher with their bucket char shananigans already, so... its already hardcore
tight sapphire
yeah only cap is anyways time for them
wind furnace
Yes, but i assume they are already close to the limit
astral dragon
weary pasture
btw anyone got an updated version of which trink is bis atm?
pliant minnow
raidbots prob lol
mellow urchin
yea you can just sim it
if you want
but keep in mind that some of the new raid trinkets are not implemented yet
nova nexus
@wind furnace they published the link of the image I had sent with initial sim stack if you wanted to look at the inputs. https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T28_Raid.html
wind furnace
ye, its the official profiles then
clear zephyr
How many heroic week changes you think there will be for classes
wind furnace
unkempt peak
i know those are only sims, but yikes
like almost a 5k difference from top end to bottom
wind furnace
unsure why people are so worked up on sims tbh
ofc patchwerk only shows output without considering encounter design
but people seem to lately rly be anti sim
what is def. visible in the sims is that there is a huge swing between classes
when rogue is at 16k and enh is at 18k
even tho enh relies on random procs so can easy lose benefits with downtime
feral schooner
where are the sims cant find them in the pins. I mean class sims for every spec
delicate osprey
should be on the simc page
wind furnace
there are none
delicate osprey
not yet there i guess
wind furnace
only some classes released a profile for the tier so its a incomplete list
also its unclear if the profiles are equally well optimized
delicate osprey
yea also krangled trinkets
wind furnace
e.g. i can put together a sim with worse gear easy
and even not intentionally
and subtlety would be 15.5k or 16k
instead of 16,8
prime rune
its so bullshit, i have to have that fuking 259 wep, atleast one... all content i killed sylvanas maybe 10 time havent got any and this content still continues..........
wind furnace
delicate osprey
dont worry some of us killed her only 40 times or so plus weekly vault to have 2 daggers
mellow urchin
even tho enh relies on random procs so can easy lose benefits with downtime
the minimum for enh in those sims is 15500
still pretty decent
despite the worst rng you can get
delicate osprey
+their buff and movespeed totem etc quite a neat thing they have it will be sad when blizz nerfs them as they always do
and didnt surv also get a nerf to their dmg
unkempt peak
lol thats funny, Enh playing its worst, with awful RNG still will do more than a unholy DK trying their hardest with the best RNG XD
wind furnace
subtleties minimum is 14.7k or so
wordup did explain me why he thinks enh is uptime dependent
if i did not missunderstand they rely on a dandom proc
and if it procs they need to stay 8 secs on the target
unkempt peak
thing is, everyone will complain once again that if sub isnt at the very tippy top then it isnt worth playing because it has no utility, even though Melee in general isnt looking great outside of fury and Enh
wind furnace
thats why its assumed that real encounters will peform significantly worse
i am not sure if i would come to the same conclusion but i can understand the line of arguments
from the sims on simulationcraft
elemental as well as wl seem to be ahead of rogue
and i don't think their profiles are optimized to the same degree my ones are
unkempt peak
so basically compared to the last patch, balance isnt look great
not just from the stand point of rogues
but across the board
wind furnace
well there are 2 factors this patch
#1 the borrowed power systems are not about equal for everyone
9.1.x domination did (with some exceptions) givene everyone similar power gains
#2 we have multiple new systems in play
we have tier set and double legendary and both are individual systems instead of generalized ones
you just need to look at rogue
subtlety gets (now) with akaaris changes in the patch one legendary thats woth 5%, so double legendary is fairly meh
compared to assassination/outlaw with dust/dusk that will go 8-10%+
unkempt peak
yeah absolutely, usually when ever multiple systems are introduced at once they balancing gets a little weird. But im not trying to be like a memelord, its just my legit concern for a potentially poorly balanced patch
wind furnace
also the baseline legendary powers of both assassination/outlaw are stronger
unkempt peak
i mean we have been feeding back that subs legendaries have been very weak since like 9.0
wind furnace
the 2 reasons subtlety looks great atm is:
#1 the higher baseline
#2 sylvanas dagger
versed meteor
As long as the devs will actively balance it should be fine
unkempt peak
the 2 reasons subtlety looks great atm is:
#1 the higher baseline
#2 sylvanas da...
with the hope that sylv daggers dont get nerfed, or if they do rogue gets compensated for the nerf
wind furnace
i am unsure what their balancing approach will be
because reguardless what they do they always fuck someone
e.g. if they nerf sylvanas dagger now, we likely won't see rogue in the wfr unless there will be a buff like e.g. reverting the tier set changes for subtlety or aura buffs
unkempt peak
i mean balance is a wheel so someone has to be on the bottom
wind furnace
if they don't nerf sylvanas dagger, and i hear this already a lot from #assassination / #outlaw people will get upset that its again a subtlety tier
also the class would be less likely taken in wfr
clear zephyr
It’s not though
There are several fights that assassination will perform better than subtlety . You will need to be able to play both
If your competitive
wind furnace
doing balacning during the first heroic week seems the best
clear zephyr
Yes that’s when it needs to be so you can gear accordingly or prep
wind furnace
as it allows the wfr to re-evaluate/build their strategies
if they do it in mythic week, its very late and strategies migth fall
if they do it in mythic week but... actually care to not over-nerf it, they basically would just let the op stuff op
if they balance after the wfr, they make it harder for guilds who progress after that
every decision seems to have some negatives
clear zephyr
Aside from practicality community perception is a major factor for a lot of players
They see a sim list and if your class is at 13-14k your going to feel it
unkempt peak
yeah, a lot of the more casual community do just take sims at face value, or what ever they see on Warcraft logs rankings
this isnt me trying to be a doomer, i still think sub is looking like it will be in a really strong spot and still super viable for 9.2, but i am just remaining cautious
nova nexus
so basically compared to the last patch, balance isnt look great
maybe look at T27 sims and then Sanctum overall DPS WCL and see how that balance based off patchwerk sims is working out.
unkempt peak
yeah they are very scuffed compared to the final result
feral schooner
tbh I highly doubt rogue gets nerfed. Rather see warri or enhancer getting gutted
or even a feral buff
unkempt peak
i dont think fury will be touched, but Enh could be in the crosshairs for a nerf
but who knows what blizz are thinking
feral schooner
yeah and if we have specs that are really ahead of us. I would not worry that a pure dps spec is getting nerfed
nova nexus
fury top simming melee t27, didn’t end well. while necro isn’t as demanding as venthyr fury uptime is, it still is very reliant on sticking to the boss. if anything they need to tweak the necro conduit down a bit
mellow urchin
frost mage is the same
wind furnace
performance of a well maintianed sim is a very good estimate
nova nexus
so yeah sims are great, and I much rather be higher than lower on ST. fights matter as much if not more than a patchwerk sim
wind furnace
rogue did always peform as expected from sims
unkempt peak
rogue sims best sims
wind furnace
we never had a surprise when we ended up better/worse
nova nexus
venthyr fury isn’t an inaccurate apl. the spec legit just needed 100% uptime (patchwerk) during condemn windows or it was trash
wind furnace
how long is condemn window and how often does that proc
nova nexus
execute phase + boss health above 80%
so you’re extending your buff window. you miss an execute and recklessness buff falls off
and that’s their “big CD” so you’re not just recasting a 30 second CD to get it going again
so it’s legit perfect in a patchwerk sim, but ass in reality.
this is also why I think you’re seeing more spec submit profile variants which was referred to as clutter by Rae.
Sims always have their uses as long as you understand how the specs work in reality, and the apl is as accurate as it can be with the knowledge the people writing said apl have.
most people just look at that stack and say “WHY AM I NOT BEST?!?!” then rage on twitter or their guild discord. lol
top simming spec play rate in SoD. 
clear zephyr
rogue did always peform as expected from sims
Because we have the best theorycrafters and community
wind furnace
haha true
shut valve
the only issue with rogue was the prepull stuff
i never really bothered testing but i suspect void elf lost a lot of value on kyrian with the use of dust prepull, as sod never synced with the racial proc
likely making mechagnome the race of choice for those that can handle looking at a diaper baby
(and those 3 rogues who still play alliance)
shut valve
yes
that is when you can sync sod with racial proc
which is exactly every minute
but when using dust, you delayed sod by 10 sec due to having the first sod prepull
and they never synced up
it's probably the primary reason venthyr never had void elf at the top, because delaying sod for flag meant you desync racial proc
shut valve
i mean, i don't see anything else making a real difference 😄
wind furnace
also.. i need to double check somehting
shut valve
why else would venthyr have mechagnomes at the top, and kyrian void elves
wind furnace
mechagnome is actually not a bad dps race
shut valve
mechagnome is great
it also gains value on longer fights
whereas void elf probably loses value on fights where mechanics, intermissions and other stuff cause you to delay sod
i just don't particularly want to look at a mechagnome while playing
wind furnace
Tbh i think there is a lot of potential for funny races
cerulean prairie
i just don't particularly want to look at a mechagnome while playing
Savoury deviate delight 
shut valve
i like my mog 😦
cerulean prairie
Yeah I could never deal with it either, I race changed to nelf
shut valve
i was nelf for years
until i transferred horde for CN
and then came back to nelf for sod
and race changed to void elf for the juicy 70 simdps
wind furnace
i would consider nelf/voild elf with cross fraction play
shut valve
i would play nelf more if their hairstyles were better or they had a red hair colour
wind furnace
i think allied races have a lot of potential
blizz should add more
e.g. the snake people from bfa would be cool
shut valve
i just want dps racials gone zzz
elfin cedar
Are the BiS raid sims available?
wind furnace
what is a bis raid sim?
you can type !fuu in #subtlety
the spreadsheet has dungeon slice and patchwerk simulations with what is probably the best possible gear
pseudo crown
I notice that your sims use the jailer trinket, how does that one preform?
wind furnace
seems to peform rly well in aoe/m+
pseudo crown
Pog
lapis wasp
do you not want to put the mythic profile daggers sim on the eval sheet?
pseudo crown
Are there reliable trinket sims? I haven't been able to find any.
lapis wasp
so if a normal sylv dagger is marginally better than a mythic ilevel dagger in oh
should we be farming normal sylv daggers for early prog if we dont have any eon yet?
nova nexus
Are there reliable trinket sims? I haven't been able to find any.
bloodmallet
they’re as accurate as can be with current trinket implementation
nova nexus
should we be farming normal sylv daggers for early prog if we dont have any eon ...
sim yourself. more than likely yes.
lapis wasp
okay, thats what I figured... yeah I got a new char so rockin 246 daggies.... normal sylv almost certainly better
nova nexus
yea
lapis wasp
normal sylv is better than 285 in oh
based on the recent mythic profile sims fuu released
mellow urchin
OH's are very weak
the weapon dps component does basically nothing
so its just agi+stats vs a dmg proc
nova nexus
@mellow urchin how’d NA do for beta test? servers stable?
nova nexus
the initial push of everyone was oof, but it was pretty stable for us. I was expecting much worse
hushed comet
normal sylv is better than 285 in oh
Incorrect
Unless something changed its heroic and mythic 
static kindle
fuu's spreasheet is normal
lapis wasp
@hushed comet you can look in the sims in the pins - it looks like the normal sylv oh is marginally better, yes
hushed comet
<@!629463378250956810> you can look in the sims in the pins - it looks like the ...
margin of error
nova nexus
are we really arguing a “margin of error” when talking 233 ilvl vs a 285 dagger many people won’t see for months, especially as an OH?
hushed comet
are we really arguing a “margin of error” when talking 233 ilvl vs a 285 dagger ...
Did you have vault today scath
nova nexus
nope. didn’t vault. rogue retired.
hushed comet
nova nexus
sadly none of the three specs interest me for progression. i’ll mess a bit with assa once 4p2l is a thing
I hate what sub hast turned into
hushed comet
I got banned from reroll
lament ore
thank fuck ZM at least seems to be only account wide stuff when it comes to the important shit
so I don't need to do it twice
warm olive
i dig the catch up gear though
nova nexus
we went from 2 rogues to zero. lol
lament ore
hushed comet
So far ZM is really chill from what I hear
Revered will be very simple
Everything’s acc wide
Nice catch up gear
Damn near mythic lvl catch up gear isn’t it?
nova nexus
My rogue is just too geared
my warrior is as geared if not better when you remove dom shard shit. have heroic OWS which is basically BiS all SL (the mythic is only thing that beats it by .6%)
hushed comet
Wowzerz
nova nexus
and i have an enhancement shaman.
hushed comet
Yeah
lament ore
I mained shaman for most of it, swapped to rogue
hushed comet
I have a shaman too
lament ore
spent very little time on actual alts
nova nexus
only had 4 sockets. had r5 unholy
lament ore
enha?
hushed comet
Yeah
lament ore
both are looking possibly quite good
nova nexus
did all 4 covenants a few months back. 252 on all conduits
lament ore
I'm an ele gamer, but would pick up enha as well
nova nexus
fury reminds me of combat enough that i’m happy on it. arms gets me closer to the stole of play I liked out of sub than sub does.
hushed comet
Hi I’m dropping WFT again because I have no buttons to press 🙃......
nova nexus
i’ll miss cheat death but w/e
nova nexus
arms requires patience
hushed comet
People say sin is sleeper but like
Arms seemed like I could actually drive my car and play at the same time
nova nexus
assa is sleeper because mistakes cost you very little
mismanage rage and you’re in for a bad time as arms
nova nexus
it plays nicer with wft
hushed comet
And more haste too ig
Fury is basically whackamole
Ik there’s minmax to it but I haven’t gotten too involved with mine yet
nova nexus
tldr pump & dump. use what is off cd that does the most dmg without overcapping rage. then dump. repeat.
wind furnace
@delicate osprey i asked koji, and unless i misunderstood it, it already works like this in the sim
winged fiber
Best patch ever no chores 
winged fiber
That’s the best part, not having to farm rep or rates for several hours a day
Just get to go around the zone and enjoy it
I’d like more side quests though maybe a lil more lore
But is only first week so I’m sure stuffs timegated
unkempt peak
It's almost like when you don't force people into doing things, they tend to enjoy it more
Like korthia wasn't the worst zone, it was just super grindy & the zone was so dang small, like 1/3 of the map was taken up by an inaccessible mountain range
wind furnace
i did like Nazjatar
not sure i rly liked any other zone recently
argus was a good zone before that
winged fiber
Argus was decent tbh
unkempt peak
Naz was alright, both that and mechagon weren't my favourite, isle of thunder was pog even timeless isle was pretty fun. Not just talking about zones added in patches but I think I dislike how all the shadowlands zones feel so disconnected from each other
winged fiber
Naz benthic grind was one of the worst things they’ve ever done though
unkempt peak
Benthic was pure ass
wind furnace
i am weird but i didn't mind benthic as much
also mechagon was good zone wise but i rly didn't like the theme/design of the zone. The dungeon was rly good tho
plucky storm
I never got benthic wrists
:)
The entire patch
:)
Cause you had to roll it with a socket too
:)
winged fiber
crimson dawn
Sorry not sure where I would otherwise ask this... I see a lot of T28 profiles generated in the last days in the simc repo. But Rogue is notably missing. I'm just curious. Is the APL not yet finished?
wind furnace
only works in normal channels
apl is finished
well, apl is never finished as there is always something to improve
but 9.2 changes are in 🙂
crimson dawn
I know the spreadsheet. I dont care about the profiles itself... more like... the process of it
But it looks like its actively been worked on. Last change to the class module was 30 min ago ^^
wind furnace
i am unsure what you mean with process of it?
crimson dawn
I think I understand that the profiles/apls are part of the class modules itself and then get generated out into the distinct /profile's ... but hearing myself typing that out makes me realize its probably a better question in the simc discord. Sry
wind furnace
the profiles are not automated they are put in by people
someone needs to create a profile and then push it to simc
crimson dawn
Oh ok, then I got thrown off by the commit always mentioning "regenerate profiles"
wind furnace
you regenerate profiles after a update to the apl
because the apl gets parsed into the profiles
crimson dawn
Ok, I understand now. Ty!
nova nexus
I never got benthic wrists
shut up dagger boi
humble frost
The 4p tier bonus is really sick in m+
Just had x4 free bp of full cp inside of flag
Insane
wind furnace
The double rng can lead to a bad player feedback
but tuning atm is good enough to be fine despite the rng
vault changes are quite huge 👀
we will lose a bit of dps today, due to updates in sim logic
(well only on pure st with akaaris)
vagrant glade
@wind furnace what time will the sims change ? Or is this live already?
wind furnace
already live in nightly
vagrant glade
Do you know when the new trinket sims will be available?
Sorry i am on my phone making breakfast for the misses and brains firing with questions.
You need a donate to fuu page 😍
wind furnace
you mean herodamage/bloodmallet?
I think hd will try to update closer to 9.2 release
but if you just want max itemlevel trinket sims:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uEzHqjwPxNDszRejsGzMGH
plucky storm
wind furnace
you have quite some options, chains might be a bit higher as iirc it does not use the "break chain" effect yet
plucky storm
dim mural
Why isn't flayed wing up there
wind furnace
what trinket do you mean, can you link it?
dim mural
Bottled flayed wing toxin aka bis trinket
I'm jk btw
I am surprised to see soleah still decently high after nerf tho
vagrant glade
None of the new trinkets in the mix?
vagrant glade
Still below m+ trinkets.
Do you think chains with the break could edge closer to the top spot?
wind furnace
i forgot to add Blood-Spattered Scale to this sim
its also quite good
well, maybe not as good but still
about on par with sac
icy pebble
wind furnace
yes
mellow urchin
<:F_:606874756859297802> we will lose a bit of dps today, due to updates in sim ...
What does this mean?
wind furnace
blizz basically uses a new flag for procs, the proc behavior in game changes with that and koji implemented that in simc
vagrant glade
Thanks fuu
south osprey
Like less pv stacks?
wind furnace
you can see it as a per target icd for pv stacks, what means akaari procs can sometimes not generate pv stacks
the pv stack generation is slightly lower, i already updated the 4 single target sims with akaaris in the spreadsheet
the change is ~50-100 dps on top profiles, so its not a insane amount, just wanted to point out why the numbers change
(kyrian goes from 16.8k -> 16.7k in the top profile)
mellow urchin
Will it be harder to hit the stab in dance threshhold?
wind furnace
don't think that much changes
but i can double check the apl later
i also plan to add some more simulations to the spreadsheet
coarse quiver
blizz basically uses a new flag for procs, the proc behavior in game changes wit...
hard question to word, does stuff like this only effect us (blizz added something specifically to rogue/sub) or was this a global thing that effected everyone
wind furnace
it affects every class/spec that blizz uses the flag on spells
but its only subtlety from my knowlage
jagged topaz
Hello, a bit new here, just checked pinned, especially the last one for Daggers; what's dohble Eon ? Sorry if it's a dumb one
winged fiber
edge of night is the dagger off sylvanus
jagged topaz
Oh sure acronym
Thanks sorry !
Was checking everything from new raid and got confused x)
prime rune
hey ppl, this week vault drop 272 m+ and 272 pvp item or its still 252?
livid ferry
252
static crystal
So if I can’t get a EoD on mythic or heroic but have the lfr version, when should I start replacing it? Currently I have a 252 MH and a 246 OH (non EoN) thanks
hushed comet
So if I can’t get a EoD on mythic or heroic but have the lfr version, when shoul...
Just going to have to sim yourself as you go
static crystal
Roger dodger
soft stratus
is there a way for me to get finality legendary power without killing sire denathrius in 9.2?
coarse quiver
go to korthia and farm out the random legendary recipe
gives you a random memory for a legendary per 2k
soft stratus
slender iris
coarse quiver
OH YEAH cinders
coarse quiver
<:pepeAgony:834109199818031154>
spam torghast
thats way fucking easier and actually reasonable
soft stratus
cinders?
uh
u mean these?
just as i noticed u wrote cinders, my 40 minute queue to raid finder sire denathrius hit
shut valve
you said cinders?
lament ore
tepid prawn
you good homie?
pliant minnow
Who hurt you?
potent vault
The great purging of dagger bug logs
winged fiber
what you mean the rank 1 15k guardian kill isn't ethical??!?
but how could that be????
externals need to die already lol
pliant minnow
implement "ranked" parsing that doesnt count externals or something
pliant minnow
¯_(ツ)_/¯
mortal harbor
you said cinders?
If you need help blink twice
celest pewter
i love torghast 🙂
Should we call ambulance?
shut valve
uncultured torghast haters
plucky storm
Yoppa doing his best to get excommunicated
shut valve
if you think this is my best, you've seen nothing
south osprey
So sad that my best fate kill got flag
shut valve
the sad thing is when basically 2 months of your logs get flagged just because you had bear KA and didn't even know about the dagger bug
obviously, after it was found, i abused the shit out of it, but the logs before are just innocent bystanders
wind furnace
raven obsidian
Why does it flag bear KA?
quasi socket
Why does it flag bear KA?
triggered dagger bug
raven obsidian
oh well im in the clear then since i didnt even loot a hc one D:
wind furnace
there was a bug with sylvanas daggers, but it was fixed
raven sphinx
is there any reason to keep these 9.2 channels and not just merge the spec channels?
i guess these are threads, not channels
wind furnace
discussions will naturally go into #subtlety over time, i won't force close the channel yet
it does not make sense to keep it long term tho
wind furnace
haha ye, i was baited in the first sec too but its only for casters
nova nexus
you only get 1 purple legendary per expansion rogues
silk gyro
wehre is the purpel legendary upgrade item to 291 ?
coarse quiver
yeah fuckin right
sylv dagger was already busted, you give us a 291 version WITH tier set?
we'd get nerfed by 20% lmao
it'd be hilarious
serene pond
will 278mh + m eon sim higher than m eon + heroic eon?
feral schooner
Eon offhand is bis from hc on until the end of the xpac
astral dragon
u can try to sim it urself if its not in the pins
raidbots is fine now, u can do gearcompare
serene pond
thanks!
pulsar axle
Hi, may i ask if anyone can provide a shadow tech tracking WA? no luck in search today...
astral dragon
yeah its in #subtlety-faq
pulsar axle
Thank you
pulsar axle
Is akaari still bugged or it is intended to be like akaari's strike cannot stack with player's?
plucky storm
not sure what you mean
humble frost
If we just used symbols and shadow_blades is up after symbols ended, do we use it or do we wait for next symbols? It feels a bit odd to hold it for 30 secs
pulsar axle
not sure what you mean
With akaari, in dance, strike1 strike2 evis3 strike45 then we assume 5 stacks, but in live it is 4 stack and waiting a bit it gets to 5
mellow urchin
In regards to PV stacks?
mellow urchin
Then say that first lmao
pulsar axle
in test, it seems akaari is not proc if a strike is performed by the player
in the same gcd
mellow urchin
Look at what
pulsar axle
should get us to 4stacks, but actually akaari was not procing there
it was the akaari from the 2nd strike
mellow urchin
You need to type this out better i think, its hard to follow your thought process when its just all ”strike 2 strike 3”. Pls log it or something and point to that data so it makes more sense
I am too tired to try decypher your point
mellow urchin
Nah but its 5:30 am here so its kinda inevitable
pulsar axle
in a sequence as strike, strike, evis+akaari, strike+akaari, it shows the 2nd akaari is not working.
pulsar axle
yes
mellow urchin
Alright, is the number of akaari casts far off your strike cast number?
Like 40 strikes, 35 akaaris
pulsar axle
the strike after the evis should be pairing with an akaari strike, but it is not there.
pulsar axle
Alright, is the number of akaari casts far off your strike cast number?
yes.
astral dragon
pulsar axle
we read the in game log and confirmed it somehow. not uploaded wcl yet. it seems everytime akaari should proc on a sec but player also cast a strike, the akaari one is gone. so far that's what we saw.
mellow urchin
You should hit a dummy and log this
pulsar axle
it reads as akaari will delay 2 sec, but in game it is a bit more than 2sec, and if you cast strike exactly at 2sec, the coming soon akaari will be gone.
I will, but im in a different task for the moment...
mellow urchin
Akaari has been devouring procs in the past
But very rarely
So if that has gotten worse, its kinda important that its bug reported
pulsar axle
ok, I'll hold my current task and get you a wcl upload asap.
humble frost
Yes
humble frost
If we just used symbols and shadow_blades is up after symbols ended, do we use i...
And this is neutral.
pulsar axle
Akaari has been devouring procs in the past
it seems the devouring is quite frequent.
I'm not sure how to understand the instant double akaari strike, should it be WM proc or ?
mellow urchin
Akaari has its own chance to proc wm
Since 9.2
And shadowstrike wm wont proc akaari
pulsar axle
sure, then in log, 28 cast of strike, 28 hits of akaari with WM, so there is devouring
if it is confirmed, please report bug for it. i cannot do it in the region.
worn prawn
i thought they made akaari not proc wm due to the whole infinite loop shit going on, on the ptr
worn prawn
yeah that ive seen before
mellow urchin
But it can escalate with the amount of strikes happening with the 4 set
I still dont understand why akaari needs to have the 2 sec delay
pulsar axle
i think it is somehow important if it has its own pattern in happening
mellow urchin
It seems to just create issues
pulsar axle
for one more interesting observation, in details, it reads the same number of akaari strike cast, but it loses hits
i thnk they made it casting both strike when you wearing the leggo, one is normal strike one is akaari, but the akaari one has landing issue
simple 8 Strike sequence, 5 akaari hits, 3 lost
The devouring is happening a lot and we need it fixed.
pulsar axle
It seems to just create issues
i think it may be PVP related
mellow urchin
i think it may be PVP related
I don't know what its related to
But if you look at your own log and akaari dmg, it seems to simply just be doing damage every 2 seconds, regardless
mellow urchin
which might create issues for the tier set
pulsar axle
I don't know what its related to
Koji confirmed that akaari is actually a 2sec DoT.
mellow urchin
Koji confirmed that akaari is actually a 2sec DoT.
yea i know that
wind furnace
you lose ticks due to refresh behaviour
mellow urchin
btw. push legs seem like a good slot too
legs are available as boe with crit/vers
pulsar axle
but now everythiing makes sense
wind furnace
fair
mellow urchin
but now everythiing makes sense
ye i mean i always knew it was basically a dot, however weird that sounds
but idk i think it could be coded better cus anything that increases your shadowstrikes doesnt really benefit the legendary
really strnage
why cant the akaari dot pandemic
or similar
mellow urchin
idk
i hope not because its really stupid
but i assume the sims already account for this behaviour
pulsar axle
now it is bugging me that i cannot predict when it is going to stab. it is like it should be soon, but not sure if this gcd or next.
and its WA would be very annoying to make
pulsar axle
it is fine to just get a WA on stab condition, but it requires fairly good reflection.
mellow urchin
but i have a WA that checks for:
PV 5+ stacks
Shadow blades active
Dance more than 3 seconds remaining
mellow urchin
you kinda need to hit 5+
on 4
because you cant really stop using gcds
to wait for the PV stack
so it has to happen in advance
pulsar axle
so you also have a stack WA?
mellow urchin
i honestly think there will be very few situations where you can get the stab off in time
yea i have both
pulsar axle
one thing on the other hand bugging me is there could be often cases that wait for like ~.1 or .2 sec and stab
warm olive
i found one on wago that's supposed to do that
pulsar axle
do what
mellow urchin
its really easy to make
warm olive
mellow urchin
you just need 3 triggers
pulsar axle
i mean a situation like: strike strike evis strike wait for the incoming akaari and stab right after that in the gcd, some WA tell me that.
so no gcd lost but also a stab on time.
mellow urchin
thats not gonna happen i think
pulsar axle
very difficult to make
south osprey
Is it a gain to stab in dance with 5+ and blades up?
wind furnace
@mellow urchin i changed the cleave section to two targets in the spreadsheet as it is probably more useful for the raid.
anything else you think needs to be added?
bells is only broken if you ptr=1 XD
haha
meager grove
Is it a gain to stab in dance with 5+ and blades up?
did someone make a WA for this?
mellow urchin
I have one and there is one on wago
quasi socket
it shouldn't be too hard to make one yourself tho
wind furnace
did someone make a WA for this?
somone linked a weakaura just above
but it is fairly easy to do
meager grove
ah gotcha ty
besides openers and that PV thing, are there any other significant rotational changes coming for us?
I've heard Kyrians basically hit SD on cd
wind furnace
not rly
one i forgot to mention is that you can basically fire shb on cd in 9.2 with the tier set
wind furnace
meager grove
sickkkkkk
trying to wrap my head around playing both specs is overwhelming with all the small details
meager grove
where is that tip from btw^? checking pins and cant find it
meager grove
ah I see it ty
fiery radish
Are we not backstabbing at all in sd when shb isn’t up then?
mellow urchin
nah
wind furnace
you dump before dancing
quartz idol
I thought they fixed echoing giving find weakness
quartz idol
it gives you find weakness during dance
its something I noticed in toghast and I tested it outside and it gives it as well
also something I noticed in torghast is that shadow portion of eviscerate doesn't scale with the 20 cp anima power, so it got me wondering if the shadow portion works with animacharge at all but from testing outside torghast it seems to be doing correct damage
wicked plume
2nd pin: under gameplay changes
What is Shb ?
wind furnace
shb = shadowblades
wicked plume
Ok thx 🙂
civic terrace
2nd pin: under gameplay changes
How much of a loss is it to just not bs in shd at all?
buoyant schooner
I thought they fixed echoing giving find weakness
It's intended for sub afaik, was just a bug for sin/outlaw
quartz idol
It's intended for sub afaik, was just a bug for sin/outlaw
I doubt its intented, if it was it would apply it always, currently its only during shadow dance
it looks to me like a quick 'we don't wanna spent much time on it' fix by just adding a in shadow dance condition to it (which assa and outlaw won't ever hit)
wind furnace
How much of a loss is it to just not bs in shd at all?
not that big, .6% iirc
i did a sim in this thread some days ago, giveme a sec
seems even less:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5Fi57YyVNGaekbEGNTfwPU
civic terrace
Appreciate the effort, don't think ill bother backstabbing in dance when the difference is this small tbh
signal nacelle
Stabbing with 5-6 stacks during dance is a good way to fish for a 2-3 empowered combo pts evis
@wind furnace when is the usual timeline when sub faq is updated with a new patch info?
signal nacelle
Thanks for all your efforts, we all really appreciate it!
vagrant glade
@wind furnace when you say trinkets are not working, what do you mean? In sims or in game?
wind furnace
it was just one trinket that did not work when using ptr=1
trinkets do work, but they might need to be re-evaluated once the raid opens
gusty thunder
Are we playing Venthyr or Kyrian next week? First fight seems to favor Venthyr and second one Kyrian. I haven't really looked into the rest of the raid, I'm too old.
hushed comet
Are we playing Venthyr or Kyrian next week? First fight seems to favor Venthyr a...
pretty much whatever you prefer or play better
could go Kyrian for ST fights if you think it's necessary to help prog those bosses
but some fights will favor venthyr
elfin cedar
Are there any sims posted with BiS gear and two leggos comparing venthyr and kyrian single target? I only see sims for one leggo, might be blind sorry
hushed comet
check the link to spreadsheet in pins
gusty thunder
Are there any sims posted with BiS gear and two leggos comparing venthyr and kyr...
I'm pretty sure that's on pins, let me look it up for you.
elfin cedar
in <#316923898501529600>
The link at the very bottom of the pins? I see those, but the sims are 12-13k. I would imagine that's a lot lower than BiS gearing
lofty crane
gusty thunder
http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
That's awesome, thank you.
elfin cedar
So, per sims, an 800 dps disparity between kyrian and venthyr. Didn't expect it to be such a large margin
hushed comet
venthyr will still be good for certain fights
elfin cedar
Which ones do you expect it to do well in?
hushed comet
anything with AoE or funnel potential
Anduin specifically
has funnel and a damage amp during the funnel, i think venthyr will be big on that fight