9.2 Feedback and Discussion

[hoary zephyr]

you arent doing teleport shit during intermission tho

[delicate osprey]

actually how far is nf with 1 min sepsis vs kyr?

[hoary zephyr]

actually wait

ya ur right

venthyr will be useless

I forgot Xymox gets a 99% dr

during intermission

[mellow urchin]

ye

[delicate osprey]

ya you just kill adds dodge shit

[hoary zephyr]

unless you have to go to island and nuke the mini boss

[delicate osprey]

the halo boss does have some premise with venth

[mellow urchin]

never forget kyrian gains value in aoe too

cus of the cdr

[delicate osprey]

and tornado value

also yea if its 5 or less reprimand cdr is big

and you can still use it

[mellow urchin]

the only time you'd take venthyr is prob for constant aoe or funnel

if you can like snipe ER when theres 4-5 mobs around

[delicate osprey]

f in the chat for necro

[mellow urchin]

and then its mostly ST

then i think its better

getting like

[delicate osprey]

i wonder about first strike value on many bosses

[mellow urchin]

30 sec cd on ER

is quite nuts

[delicate osprey]

but then playing nf is quite hmmm even getting sepsis resets

sometimes vendetta goes dodo

instead of current tar

[mellow urchin]

NF could be good on anduin

not even yoking

[delicate osprey]

yea i though the same

same as the halo boss

it is like lite slg with adds every 30 secs

[mellow urchin]

you will have 25% crit for the entirety of the nuke intermission phase

[wind furnace]

you can gain some cleave/aoe by going finality

so unless you rly need the funnel you should be fine as kyrian

[delicate osprey]

i think aakari is too unfair st with the pv canges rn

and rogue is poop aoe so just try and get more st by getting value

nf is more for the soulbind than the leggo

[mellow urchin]

problem with anduin is that its also 3-4 other phases which doesnt have funnel

and imagine being korayn on that

[wind furnace]

i mean ye^^

[mellow urchin]

might not be great

[wind furnace]

and thats without some of the pv optimizations

[delicate osprey]

well maybe it is like kt where boomkins shined

[mellow urchin]

this is even without the PV stuff

so more like 2.2%?

[delicate osprey]

you only took them because of op damage profile

[wind furnace]

.7% or so

but could be a bit higher even

[delicate osprey]

even more on cleave+funnel maybe because hhow 4p will work with pv

[mellow urchin]

ye

its actually nuts

[delicate osprey]

i do think you can only get 1 pv per 4p proc tho

it has like icd right?

[mellow urchin]

you will get 5 stacks from 1 4p proc

[mellow urchin]

dont think it does

[delicate osprey]

oh noice

[mellow urchin]

can check on ptr

[delicate osprey]

then yea i mean normal/hc week is the tryoit phase

[mellow urchin]

i was thinking that PV would actually be pog funnel

[delicate osprey]

i may try nf for a bit on the reset/add spam bosses

yea a 5-6k builder is no joke

[mellow urchin]

non crit

[delicate osprey]

of course

[mellow urchin]

with 250 gear

gonna be big

[delicate osprey]

i really hope jailer trinket gives something crazy

[mellow urchin]

i did crit 20k on a stab

as NF

with unholy

[delicate osprey]

oh pog

[mellow urchin]

and that was without using it in dance

missing 15%

[delicate osprey]

yea we will have more chances of SoD backstab too

because of swimming in PV stacks

[mellow urchin]

this was 1 proc

on 4 targets

so it does work

jesus

gonna be big stabs on the anduin funnel

[hoary zephyr]

oh PV procing?

ya

[mellow urchin]

it gives a stack for each strike hit

[wind furnace]

🤔 probably need to re-visit bs use with priority_rotation

[mellow urchin]

on the 4p proc

[hoary zephyr]

I thought it wasnt fix

[wind furnace]

to not skip it on 4+

[hoary zephyr]

fixed*

[mellow urchin]

PV is fixed

nothing else

[hoary zephyr]

Oh nice

ya thats big

gonna be big for Proto

[mellow urchin]

could still be a loss due to losing a finisher

[hoary zephyr]

actually fuck it, I am saying it

I am playing necro sub for Proto

[mellow urchin]

no ur not

[wind furnace]

ye, need to check

[hoary zephyr]

no I am not

caught my bluff

[mellow urchin]

unless deathspike gets a buff

[hoary zephyr]

dw JPC is on it

[mellow urchin]

[hoary zephyr]

he is getting deathspike and blade flurry uncapped

he @ bill gates on twitter

[mellow urchin]

tier sets on ptr still has cringe stats

i wonder if this is actually good

probably trash for sub

no vers

sadg

[hoary zephyr]

Heart of Azeroth stats and same flavor text

well

almost

more edgy

I wanna know what the trinket is from that boss

that's what I am more curious about

[mellow urchin]

the trinkets

are

[hoary zephyr]

Scars

[mellow urchin]

i mean the loot table for jailer is very strange

2 trinkets 1 neck and a waist

[hoary zephyr]

Scars is a universal trinket

prob why

still missing daggers

[mellow urchin]

there wont be any

this is a pretty nice statted dagger tho

[hoary zephyr]

oh

so there is no dagger with effect?

[mellow urchin]

from 2nd boss of the raid

[hoary zephyr]

no new dagger*

man

the stats from all the end bosses suck

the last 3

Lmao

the rings from Halondrus and Rygelon

wtf is that mastery shit

[mellow urchin]

i mean it was heavy crit in sod

gotta spice it up

i still think some items are not done yet

stat wise

there is a neck in there with barely any stats

like this

dont think a 278 neck is meant to have 120 stats

[hoary zephyr]

might have an effect

[mellow urchin]

nah i just think

the stats arent correct on all items

the rogue set is still all haste

which is simply not

ok

[hoary zephyr]

ya

at least there is a head piece that is crit vers

non set

pretty sure that will be non tier set item

4 set from every other slot

[winged fiber]

it's not too bad for venth and sin but

i could definitely see how it could fuck kyrian

[barren forge]

unless u put akaari on helm?

or would akaari be on the neck>

[hoary zephyr]

neck prob

[wind furnace]

i can see head

[barren forge]

depends on ilvl. more stats overall from helm

what Fuu said

[hoary zephyr]

there is no crit vers neck

so far

there is a crit vers helm

idk

[barren forge]

spires mate

[wind furnace]

head/chest/legs are the 3 high stat budget items

[hoary zephyr]

I mean

[barren forge]

neck from spires is still in game

[hoary zephyr]

I guess

[wind furnace]

but you will:
#1 early have no choice but to take the tier pieces you get so potentially head
#2 wait to see stats on tier set
#3 compare to best item in the slot and raid loot iirc isn't completed

[barren forge]

ah yeah so it would be Tier>ilvl>stats?

[wet surge]

@mellow urchin which wa / addon are the %?

[wind furnace]

it won't matter in the long run

because you can vary your tier set slots as needed once you can craft the tier set

[barren forge]

ahh yeah

[barren forge]

advanced tooltips https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/advanced-tooltips

[wind furnace]

but for the first weeky you will take what you get

either from vault or the raid

[wet surge]

Thank you!

[barren forge]

np

[livid ferry]

its still SoD copy paste values

like all of it

our set

[barren forge]

is Obedience fixed on ptr?

[plucky storm]

yep

[barren forge]

nice ty for reply

[south osprey]

you can find the exact set item stats from 9.2 on the dom pieces from sod

blizz just copied all pieces with like haste

[deft cave]

what exactly is bugged with the 4p? or where could i read about that

[livid ferry]

too much

doesnt proc akaari doesnt work off anima cp doesnt proc 2 pc

[deft cave]

so basically interactions with other borrowed powers?

or internal stuff as well

[plucky storm]

Pins in #subtlety

[blissful elk]

Bad Channel sry

[gleaming elbow]

sry for stupid question,but any chance they fix opener stuff for 9.2?

[civic terrace]

Doubt

[wind furnace]

they could fix the dark shadow snapshotting

would make the extended dust opener less relevant

[gleaming elbow]

Even that would be great

[crisp aurora]

anyone got any sims for 9.2 ?

sub sims that is

[thin arrow]

So whats the veredict atm for M+ are we still looking good ?

[pliant minnow]

i always look good.

[feral schooner]

Yes shroud even with the new affix is still op funnel damage is very good the ability to stun on demand near infinitely and the good damage output sub is looking good.

[wind furnace]

you don't need to kill a mob to get shroud, so makes sense

but i assume you will almost always want to proc haste

[hoary zephyr]

I think dagger fix is more important than dust fix

:P

[wind furnace]

ye the sac bug def is relevant

[wind furnace]

@mellow urchin assa baseline looks quite good in the 9.2 kindred spreadsheet

as night fae

[mellow urchin]

think its fake

think its with dom shards

and shit

[potent vault]

Do you got the sheet link?

[wind furnace]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1baQypWt2RjCYvtRQ7T5fPXqK18FeZON9XtR-LRvSGXo/edit#gid=718361547

but i also put it in #subtlety-faq and #wow-general a while ago

this is the sim:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/t7kmh1gVPJ62t54mRsBjRM/simc

i also only noticed because i was asked about sin in the spreadsheet

given it has this high amount of dps gain from kindred

[steel meadow]

how is baseline assa 13200

[wind furnace]

it does use a custom apl

[steel meadow]

did i miss smth

[wind furnace]

so possible a more optimized one from whispyr?

[mellow urchin]

i showed it to cev a few days ago

and he had no clue either

[nova nexus]

📈

[steel meadow]

but thats an insane gain compare to what he has in his google doc

[nova nexus]

cev has been optimizing it

as well

[mellow urchin]

ye but he has found 3%

not 10%

[wind furnace]

hmm

[steel meadow]

can it be 100% 2pc sims

[nova nexus]

does the spreadsheet show the sim? on mobiles right now

[pliant minnow]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/t7kmh1gVPJ62t54mRsBjRM

[steel meadow]

also what is this 12300 sub venthyr

Lol

[mellow urchin]

ye its all wrong

[nova nexus]

the almighty NF mechagnome assa rogue. lol

[mellow urchin]

its using it badly

[nova nexus]

i hate reading it in mobile but i’m assuming it’s scuffed

[wind furnace]

it has subtlety with kyrian at 13.5 baseline too

keep in mind that the spreadsheet has multiple

rows for each spec with covenants

at least for rogue

[steel meadow]

13.5 kyrian is not that much error, but ye

that spreadsheet looks totally wrong

[nova nexus]

russian apl hacks

[steel meadow]

i am russian

i can say u there is no hacks

[nova nexus]

need more cross discord communication

[mellow urchin]

it says nf sub is simming 700 dps above venthyr

[steel meadow]

[wind furnace]

huh?

nf sub is 13k

[wind furnace]

oh ye

lol

[mellow urchin]

i mean the entire thing is just scuffed

idk why anyone would look at this

[steel meadow]

it looks like venthyr simmed without obedience or smth

[nova nexus]

mystler’s dream coming true

[wind furnace]

the one who did the spreadheet however did take my profiles

[livid ferry]

Subs not even at 13 lol its at 14 as kyrian

[wind furnace]

so not sure what he did

but sth seems off

[buoyant gyro]

I mean in that link above the actual baseline was only like 11k without set bonuses

Or actually even with the 2pc

[mellow urchin]

is it just

wrong tags

[wind furnace]

baseline no simp 2p is without 4p i assume

[steel meadow]

what the

[mellow urchin]

the 2pc 2l rogue assa nf

seems to be in line with the actual baseline sim

idk wtf that means anyway

2L

[pliant minnow]

2lego, 2piece

[wind furnace]

^

[mellow urchin]

alright

[livid ferry]

What is this simp no simp shit lmao

[pliant minnow]

kindred aff

[buoyant gyro]

Something is really messed up in that sim though I dunno

[wind furnace]

simp = with kindred

no simp = without

[buoyant gyro]

copy="„2PC_2L_Rogue_Assa_NF""

set_bonus="tier28_2pc=1"
set_bonus="tier28_4pc=0"

copy="base_no_simp_2pc"

druid="simp"

[wind furnace]

druid = simp

[buoyant gyro]

should mean that 2PC_2L_Rogue_Assa_NF and base_no_simp_2pc are identical

But they clearly aren't

[wind furnace]

🤔

[pliant minnow]

base_no_simp, doesnt have double lego?

shouldnt*

[buoyant gyro]

Oh 2PC_2L_Rogue_Assa_NF gets kindred I see

[nova nexus]

is there anything weird going on with the gear sets?

[pliant minnow]

theyre forced 252 / wonked stats + high lvl lego's

[buoyant gyro]

copy="Base_no_simp"

copy="„2PC_2L_Rogue_Assa_NF""

set_bonus="tier28_2pc=1"
set_bonus="tier28_4pc=0"

copy="base_no_simp_2pc"

but given this

[livid ferry]

Ppl calculating what hoops they gotta jump through to play assa

[pliant minnow]

The sims were made on gear templates that got force scaled to 252 ilvl (other than 2 pieces which represent legendaries), added on 2 legendaries and 4pc tier set bonus. Obviously some classes benefit more from having their stats shuffled around or some items being higher ilvl (weapons). I for one chose not to do it because I only know what my class needs. If you want to improve the profiles of a spec feel free to shoot me a dm with gear optimisations.

[buoyant gyro]

I don't see how it's possible Base_no_simp is 16% higher than base_no_simp_2pc

With just 4pc being the only difference

between the profiles

[mellow urchin]

maybe 2p at 100%?

[buoyant gyro]

Spell data was updated some time ago

[nova nexus]

is it a nightly sim?

[steel meadow]

it shows sims was made 19 jan so it should be 40%

ah maybe its weekly

[wind furnace]

sim is 2 days old

so should have the nerfed 2p

[steel meadow]

no its nightly

[buoyant gyro]

But I dunno

[mellow urchin]

could 4p be worth 16% dps with duskwalker

[nova nexus]

have we rerun our sims? wondering if any spell data changed

[mellow urchin]

equipped

[wind furnace]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hMZLAQv9zcabTcE2V5jPTg

need to wait for it to finish, but i basically copy/pasted the input

[buoyant gyro]

Also keep in mind

Obe is still kinda fucked iirc

on PTR builds

[wind furnace]

it is?

[buoyant gyro]

Until the bonus ID gets fixed it won't work

[wind furnace]

it worked after reset

when i tried it

[buoyant gyro]

Yeah but the sim is 2 days old right?

It wouldn't have a spell data fix from yesterday

[wind furnace]

oh

i mean its night fae

so not sure if it matters

[buoyant gyro]

I just mean for their comparisons that were mentioned earlier

[wind furnace]

sim seems to be on par tho

[livid ferry]

They’re using weird hard forced 252 profiles

[buoyant gyro]

I'm checking something really quick

And yeah the profiles are a little odd

[wind furnace]

hmm

[buoyant gyro]

I suspect there is something funky with applying the externals or something

[mellow urchin]

this have no set piece

[buoyant gyro]

But anyway trying to isolate this, it could be 4pc is actually that high for NF with double leggo

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rtWSdFsgf7JQYK1gv2mZR

But going to test to see if it's related to the profile

[wind furnace]

i just copy/pasted the profile from the sim, didn't know that its not using tier set pieces

[buoyant gyro]

Wonder if the overhang DoT is snapshotting Field of Blossoms due to the timing. Suppose it's possible. 😛

Get that GCB experience

[steel meadow]

so according to that sim 4pc itself is 2100 extra dps

seems weird

[nova nexus]

dreamweaver best haste weaver

[wind furnace]

time to find haste proc/use trinkets

[steel meadow]

u have one from spires

dont remember its cooldown

2 mins ig

[livid ferry]

Frond time

[nova nexus]

haste stack with eye trinket

[buoyant gyro]

For comparison

[livid ferry]

Lol

That rupture and garrote trucking

Compared to the right

[mellow urchin]

thats exsang for you

[buoyant gyro]

I mean 6 more executes I suppose that makes sense. The DPET is not that different

I think the issue here is the overhang though

"Issue" as it were

As a percentage of total time it skews a lot with Dusk

Essentially doubles the uptime of the overhang as well

[mellow urchin]

4p being 16%

is more than most sets

[nova nexus]

isn’t the paladin set more than most where they just nerfed holy instead of the set?

i’ve given up trying to sort out their approach to overall balance

[mellow urchin]

idk

they might nerf the pala set on top of those changes

[buoyant gyro]

Without Dusk Vendetta uptime is 19% on a 5 minute sim

With Dusk Vendetta is 33%

[mellow urchin]

makes sense

[buoyant gyro]

Alone that isn't an issue but when you start adding the overhang on top of it it ends up being like...

[nova nexus]

at this point we’re last tier of kinda scuffed expansion. get numbers close and go

[buoyant gyro]

Let's say you get on average like ~9s of overhang on every Vendetta (2/3rds of half of max Rupture duration)

With 2.9 uses that's 26s

With 5.1 uses that 45.9s

[mellow urchin]

perhaps the solution is going to be to remove the "overhang"

[buoyant gyro]

So that's 8.6% extra uptime vs. 15% extra uptime in a 5 minute sim

Add those together and 19%+8.6% = 27.6% of hasted dots without Dusk

48% with Dusk

So that makes sense why we would essentially see ~50% more Rupture casts

[nova nexus]

then where would overhang hit with regular raid type fights vs standing still for 5 minutes.

[buoyant gyro]

11.7 vs. 17.3

[mellow urchin]

just refresh in the end scath

dont see how its gonna be a massive issue

[buoyant gyro]

47% exactly, so napkin math checks out

Things intuitively look correct here

[mellow urchin]

i guess whispyr

just never simmed the combination

and just did either 4 set or double legendary

[buoyant gyro]

I mean the APL improvement for Shiv isn't in yet but the tuning variable for Dusk is in

Also we hadn't been looking at Night Fae as much before either

I do suspect with this many casts that basically we are snapshotting every Field of Blossoms

[mellow urchin]

impossible or

or i mean

its every 2nd vendetta

[buoyant gyro]

All 3 Sepsis uses in that sim have Vendetta up

[mellow urchin]

ye

you sync them

but i thought you meant every vendetta had blossoms

which isnt possible

[livid ferry]

Wdym

[mellow urchin]

wdymwdym

[buoyant gyro]

And the Rupture cast at the end of Vendetta

Has Field of Blossoms up

[mellow urchin]

sepsis has a 1.5 min cd and is the thing procing blossoms

[livid ferry]

Oh nvm i see wym

[buoyant gyro]

So that snapshots out the entire overhang Rupture

[mellow urchin]

the garrote doesnt?

[buoyant gyro]

It might miss out the timing but I was just looking at Rupture specifically

Rupture effectively is getting an extra 10s snapshot on Field of Blossoms due to this timing

every time

[mellow urchin]

exsang jank

[buoyant gyro]

30s extra of 15% Haste on dots is a non-trivial skew lol

Anyway we'll see what they do

It's kinda hard for them to balance with the overhang how it is and also with Dusk at the same time

[livid ferry]

Prob nothing

[buoyant gyro]

Talking about nearly a 50% difference in uptime

[nova nexus]

well it changes gameplay. tier set goal accomplished.

[buoyant gyro]

The overhang is the difference between it overlapping another Shiv or not which is kinda a big point

[livid ferry]

Assa patch

[nova nexus]

ngl progging on a NF toon was enjoyable.

[mellow urchin]

this just confirms my reroll to spriest

[nova nexus]

then not having soulshape cry

[pliant minnow]

nfae is def my preferred covenant overall so i wont be to upset

promise i will really really miss door of shadows.....lol

[nova nexus]

is this the play?

[livid ferry]

Ye just self bench for whole patch

[mellow urchin]

not playing bleed cuck spec

[nova nexus]

21st man yelling at Cev the entire time.

[mellow urchin]

back for 10.0

forget 9.2 exists

[livid ferry]

Ye p much

I sleep

[hoary zephyr]

Sub still gonna be good

Ur just fried

And not Copium

[slender iris]

So just to recap

[livid ferry]

P much

[hoary zephyr]

LMAO

[mellow urchin]

checks out

[mellow urchin]

its gonna get destroyed by tuning

[livid ferry]

The sub main cycle

[wind furnace]

thats the fear atm

[hoary zephyr]

Nah

[wind furnace]

sub tier set could be tuned

daggers unsure

[hoary zephyr]

🥷

[mellow urchin]

assa gets to keep some ridiculous OP interaction and sub gets booted to the streets

[hoary zephyr]

It will be fine

[mellow urchin]

classic wow gameplay

[wind furnace]

i wouldn't overreact

[lyric rune]

lmfao thats my assa profile i got from ceverion

[wind furnace]

its unclear if it gets changed

it seems fun for the player

because its busted

[livid ferry]

Its been said its getting changed

To be bad

Because its gonna get tuned down to their target 10%

Set balance epicness

[mellow urchin]

assa casually getting like 30% dps from their tier set

who cares

just numbers

[livid ferry]

I guess should have read between the lines

some sets will be tuned down to 10%

[mellow urchin]

unwanted specs

so rip enhancement and survival i guess

[livid ferry]

Assa gets non rng set with broken lege interaction

[hoary zephyr]

Even with a strong interaction, sub is still gonna be extremely strong on certain fights

So idk

Also dreamweave shit drops on ground, no shot that you will be staying on it during an actual fight

[wind furnace]

i keep waiting for a more final build

[hoary zephyr]

There are so many things that people don’t account for

[wind furnace]

and tuning before making any judgement

[hoary zephyr]

And have this reaction

[livid ferry]

Some designer brand copium you are engulfing

[hoary zephyr]

Like I get it that another spec is performing extremely well but I don’t think knee jerk reaction like this is good lmao

[livid ferry]

Blossoms on the ground oh nyooo

[hoary zephyr]

?

You are taking 5 min patchwerk sims seriously

LMAO

NON TUNED ONES

Holy shit hahahahahaha

[livid ferry]

Bro this is literally what people said about sub pre 9.1

Patchwerk sims LOL!! Downtime!!

Stop huffing

[hoary zephyr]

You are absolutely fucking fried

[livid ferry]

Our proc chances are gonna get neutered in half minimum

And the 2 pc duration will get dropped to like 3 sec

Sayonara

[hoary zephyr]

That you take 5 min patchwork sims seriously esp from PTR with no tuning

Ya because you know THAT is the exact change that will happen right?

[livid ferry]

Yes man im just going to become a sim denier to fit my narrative

Most likely yes

[hoary zephyr]

Alright

[buoyant gyro]

Dreamweaver isn't really that bad

The circle is huge

[hoary zephyr]

I am the one who brought idea up btw

[livid ferry]

Yes it isnt

[hoary zephyr]

But

Lmao

[livid ferry]

Blossoms isn’t going to make or break that build lmfao

[buoyant gyro]

It's like way easier than GCB on a longer CD 😛

And DoTs will always gain full value because of the snapshot even if you run out

[hoary zephyr]

I promise you that dreamweaver is gonna get cucked because of fight encounters

[livid ferry]

Hollow injecting AAA grade copium

[hoary zephyr]

DK taking 5 min non tuned PTR sims seriously

[mellow urchin]

assa set was tuned

[livid ferry]

People literally said the same dumbass shit you’re saying about obedience

People said it wasn’t gonna be playable on prog

Stop smoking crack

[hoary zephyr]

Also I never said sub set is good, that thing is RNG slot machine lmao

Well those guys lack iq

And I said obedience was gonna be played

Imagine having CDR and thinking vers is the reason why it’s good

Wtf

[livid ferry]

What

It wasn’t the nerfs

That ppl thought it wouldn’t be good

[hoary zephyr]

???

Okay that’s like

A fucking dumb take

Whoever said that is an idiot

[livid ferry]

Bro im telling you

[hoary zephyr]

The only criticism I had with obedience was it wasn’t available instantly

[livid ferry]

People said the exact same shit

About obedience

That you are RIGHT NOW saying about this assa

[hoary zephyr]

What? That it will be bad on certain fights because of encounter design?

[livid ferry]

The fights are gonna cuck it

[hoary zephyr]

Assassination’s strength is literally ST, 2-3 target cleave

There are a couple of fights in the raid where priority damage matters a lot

That’s my argument

Like, you will not pick Sin over Sub in a fight like Anduin

Esp since he is the last boss of part 1

[livid ferry]

You will cause subs gonna be a ditch spec

[hoary zephyr]

Brother

Did you test heroic anduin?

[livid ferry]

Yes I did

[hoary zephyr]

I am not asking as a flame question

Okay

[livid ferry]

I onow what the intermission is

[hoary zephyr]

You really think sin will be better than sub?

[livid ferry]

But if you do zdps outside it

It wont matter

[hoary zephyr]

You won’t be doing zdps tho, you are saying that sub literally hits like a wet noodle at this point

[livid ferry]

Yes

The set will get bugfixed

And then neutered

To the nice 10%

The man said they are aiming for

Fire mage already got shot in the head

Were next

[hoary zephyr]

Scari also said that if a spec is like 15% over others or something they will look at it again

Btw

Esp after first initial tunings

[livid ferry]

Just like in nyalotha

Surely they will not just “sorry guys 10.0 soon 😦 we work on that”

[hoary zephyr]

Scari wasn’t even around Nya lmao

Also thinking corruption balance was actually balance

[livid ferry]

Its okay man

Subs been worse than assa for like 90% of its life

Things are just back to normal

[wind furnace]

this, i think its vital to not dismiss such effects as "useless" this fast

[livid ferry]

Ye idk its literally a deterministic effect

Its not like umbrella

You press a button and it happens

[hoary zephyr]

Never seen a game balancing make a person completely broken

[mellow urchin]

i mean its kinda old news that assa is favored for 9.2 simply cus of how the set is designed

doesnt matter what the current values are at rn

if you want to talk about prio dmg etc, having 1 min vendetta is quite good for that

[carmine wasp]

I mean theres still...some? hope for outlaw right Because I really dont want to have to play sin the entire tier

but god does outlaws ST damage suck a fat one on the PTR rn

[livid ferry]

Maybe if aura buffs come

(They aren’t)

[mellow urchin]

i dont think outlaw will be any good

prob worse than sub

i mean perfectly playable, but just not the best

[carmine wasp]

I mean the ST output of outlaw right now on the PTR is like...giga bad. I think I was doing more dps on a 5 min target dummy test when I was testing destro on my lock, and destro's ST is abysmal

[livid ferry]

Chances of them replicating SoD spec balance is thin imo lol

SoD is like actually perfect

St damage do-ers do the most ST

Then there is the class of specs

That do decent ST but also have some other thing they are good at

Decent burst aoe/cleave or whatever

Then theres the monkey aoe specs like aff fury ww

That have their own niche that can be used as needed

Sepulcher gonna be a shit show

[wind furnace]

idk, i don't think they keep that in

it seems wy to strong

but i assume sin/sub will get tuned to be very close in output.

[livid ferry]

[wind furnace]

so hard to predict what spec is the play if sub is on par or slightly behind in output

[carmine wasp]

I mean theres already numerous specs in 9.2 that are looking to be S tier ST damage and S tier AoE/cleave so I feel like any spec who may have a small niche in having strong AoE is just going to be useless

tier sets and double lego is just making some specs damage profiles crazy good and versatile at the same time

[pliant minnow]

who's getting the goods?

[wind furnace]

sin 9.2

sub 9.2

🤔 what damage profile would you take

the one with high burst or the one that is nearly sustained damage

[junior escarp]

where did u find those?

[carmine wasp]

kind of weird to think of sub as an extreme sustained damage spec lol

[wind furnace]

reports

if you open the report of a sim you see the damage graph

to be fair their is also venthyr:

[buoyant gyro]

I mean Sub has been a mostly a sustain spec since Legion

[wind furnace]

if you exclude dfa

[buoyant gyro]

DfA was just a micro-CD cycle though similar to SoD and whatnot

[wind furnace]

dark was also somewhat relevant in bfa

yes but dfa had higher burst spikes frequently

[buoyant gyro]

Sub since Legion has always been based on like 20-30s micro CD cycles

Nothing like Assassination where Vendetta has always pushed towards a 2 minute burst spec

Sub hasn't really had a burst damage profile since WoD

[wind furnace]

wod had a quite extreme one

but i think its more about the baseline damage being very high on sub

[buoyant gyro]

So we're now kinda like

Almost 6 years on this design now 😄

[wind furnace]

dfa had very short burst cycles followed by weak downtime

dance uptime was around 1/2 or 1/3 of what it is now

[buoyant gyro]

Like you can look at it in terms of M+ as well even in Legion. If a tank asks "Are your CDs up?"

A Sub player has always said "Yes"

For the last 5-6 years

[wind furnace]

yes ofc

but i think the damage was more compressed with dfa

[buoyant gyro]

Which at this point I think is a strength of the spec in a lot of ways

[wind furnace]

while is now more spread

[buoyant gyro]

Although there are times where burst damage can be better too (see Venthyr Druids)

Not that Assassination is anything close to that even for 9.2

Venthyr Balance might be the most extreme burst that has ever been in WoW lol

[wind furnace]

hfc sub/mage would probably qualify

with ring/soulcap

i guess venthyr is kinda burst

if you look at the damage profile

[hoary zephyr]

Both and swap to what the fight and guild needs are

[wind furnace]

ye absolutelty

it is in that sense nice to have kyrian/venthyr as options for sub to change damage profiles

also emphasize on funnel if needed

[hoary zephyr]

Ya I like that tbh

I don’t wanna one trick a spec lmao

Unless it’s completely busted but even then it gets boring

[buoyant gyro]

That was a lot of burst for sure, although looking at our Mage logs from HFC it seemed like on a longer fight "only" about 50-55% of their damage came from Prismatic Crystal+Nithramus (which would have been all their CD damage) whereas top Balance Druid logs have about 70% of their damage during Ravenous Frenzy 🤣

Mages could be a bit higher on some pulls if Doom Nova proc'd during crystal but that was inconsistent

[steel meadow]

how is this sustain profile
or if u doesnt have 2 or 3 minute cd it doesnt count as burst

[wind furnace]

^

thats what i mean with compressed damage

[hoary zephyr]

Non bug fixes correct?

[buoyant gyro]

I mean that is totally a sustain profile in any practical sense

[pliant minnow]

drum beat

[buoyant gyro]

Consistent 30s cycles with no variation is definitely "sustain" in the context of raid encounters

[wind furnace]

its with bugfixes in

[buoyant gyro]

This is a burst profile 😛

[wind furnace]

yes, but a compressed damage profile (i hope compressed is the right word for it) with shorter damage spikes is prefered

over the atm very spread out one

[steel meadow]

according to what u sent, no one in the game have burst except boomkin

why do u put extreme examples on the table

[pliant minnow]

thats just someone getting up to get coffee ;P

[hoary zephyr]

Ah

So no unknown future possible tuning

[wind furnace]

its just how it would be if the bluepost fixes are in

[hoary zephyr]

Got it

But it’s as Venthyr?

[buoyant gyro]

I mean just look at any Assassination log from Antorus if you want

You see extreme bursts during Vendetta then a much lower sustain

[wind furnace]

both look quite bursty

[steel meadow]

Lol

[wind furnace]

tbh

[buoyant gyro]

Just because WCL does spikey things doesn't mean it is

WCL's bar coalescing is super misleading from single GCDs

[wind furnace]

like subtlety did hit for 7M+, assassination more like 6m

ofc short time only for sub

[buoyant gyro]

The reality is in the example of Sub

You would do consistent damage to any given add or any given target over a relatively short period of practical time

Burst is not usually defined as "one global" it's over a burst window

which will be 10-30 seconds in any practical sense

Some specs have 2-3 minute CDs that last ~20s like Vendetta

[steel meadow]

Or u could did an insane amount to something like maiden at fallen avatar

[buoyant gyro]

Over their "burst windows" they will do a lot more damage

[steel meadow]

because u dealing ur damage for 5-10 seconds

[buoyant gyro]

The Sub example may look visually spikey but it's consistent in any practical sense

[hoary zephyr]

@wind furnace were both charts Venthyr?

[wind furnace]

ony kyrian one venthyr

[buoyant gyro]

Assassination example I literally did 1/2 of the damage in 0:30-0:60 in the fight

[hoary zephyr]

Ah

[buoyant gyro]

as I did in 0:00-0:30

That is a burst profile

[wind furnace]

yes, sub def. had no long time burst with a long fall off phase

[buoyant gyro]

So that's what I mean by saying Sub has been built around micro-CD cycles for quite a while. It's a little less individually spikey now but the general ebb and flow and timing is still more or less the same now

[mellow urchin]

so is assa less burst now that it has 1 min cds

[wind furnace]

yes

its more a sustained profile

[buoyant gyro]

Just have to get high enough uptime that Vendetta is always up then it's sustain 👌

[mellow urchin]

i mean you'll have weak vendettas, and strong vendettas

basically what it will be

[hoary zephyr]

Ngl and I told cev this but playing with short vendetta is fun

[mellow urchin]

and any fight where you cant spend energy is gonna feel like ass cheeks

[hoary zephyr]

But tbf I played necro sin PvP

[wind furnace]

short high hitting damage profile is fun ^^

thats why dfa was great

if we define it as sustained or burst rly comes down to definition i assume

but shadow dance uptime was 13-20% compared to current 55%+

[hoary zephyr]

I feel like at this point I would rather take this sin build

[steel meadow]

around 20%

[hoary zephyr]

Than get nerfed

[steel meadow]

fuck sin, dot renewer simulator

[hoary zephyr]

Like if they tune this with sin AND nerf sub (which will happen) then entire class is doomed

So

[wind furnace]

just to compare it

[hoary zephyr]

Ya

[wind furnace]

assassination with a 20 sec every 120 sec has a 16.6% uptime on vendetta

what is close to sub with dfa

[steel meadow]

but its not fun

[wind furnace]

vendetta cdr to 1 minute

[hoary zephyr]

You know what’s not fun? Being benched because both specs are dogshit

[mellow urchin]

reroll

exists

[steel meadow]

what is better, billion numbers like 20 40 500 200
or 1 big dick hit at 20.000.000

[wind furnace]

has a way higher uptime on vendetta (33%)

[hoary zephyr]

Yes

Reroll does exist

[steel meadow]

nah i wont get benched

[hoary zephyr]

But that is more commitment than playing sin which is strong

And competitive

[wind furnace]

tbh i don't think any of the op interactions will be untouched

[hoary zephyr]

I think it won’t

[wind furnace]

so its more a overreaction to focus on one spec over the other based on current tuning

[hoary zephyr]

Well that too

[wind furnace]

we don't even know what will happen to subtlety

[hoary zephyr]

I mean I get it man

I love playing this spec

But people just don’t wanna adapt and shit on others

That’s just annoying

Honestly every melee’s concern should be survival Hunter tuning

[nova nexus]

zero concern with that. put down the copium pipe.

[hoary zephyr]

Ya that shit is gonna get tuned

[nova nexus]

your concern should be that sub tier pushes it closer to yahtzee pirate. rng simulator.

[buoyant gyro]

SV Hunters being good isn't good enough

[hoary zephyr]

Nah I will play sin

[buoyant gyro]

I mean right now obviously it's busted but

[hoary zephyr]

If sub is gutted

[wind furnace]

isn't SV being considered in m+ now?

[hoary zephyr]

Lmao

[buoyant gyro]

Even SV being moderately OP isn't enough

[nova nexus]

rogue is still the dos with most survivability in the game.

[buoyant gyro]

SV has been plenty strong many tiers and everyone ignores it always

[mellow urchin]

hunter is a weak ass class

0 utility

squish

[hoary zephyr]

Push rerolling to surv

[buoyant gyro]

As long as it's a ranged immunity it will have raid spots though

😛

[mellow urchin]

ye

but melee?

prob not

[buoyant gyro]

yeah

[mellow urchin]

if not even rogue can get a spot

[buoyant gyro]

I mean the issue isn't even vs. other melee

[mellow urchin]

bit of a cope to assume survival is

[buoyant gyro]

It's like any SV Hunter comes into a guild or raid

And the first question is

"why tf aren't you ranged"

😛

[wind furnace]

isn't survival hybrid more or less

and does not require high melee uptime

[mellow urchin]

it has a cd

[buoyant gyro]

Kinda the same problem with Feral any time Balance is good

Feral can be really good

[livid ferry]

it requires high melee uptime

[nova nexus]

less fuu

[buoyant gyro]

And the question is still "why aren't you Balance?"

[wind furnace]

ah okay, my assumption on that was wrong then

feral is also

[nova nexus]

those specs legit have to shit on everything

[wind furnace]

"why aren't you rogue?"

[buoyant gyro]

Melee vs. ranged hybrid is just like a microcosm of the melee vs. ranged raid spots

[wind furnace]

so feral need to outdo rogue + balance

[buoyant gyro]

There's just a huge preference to ranged

always

[hoary zephyr]

No it’s why aren’t you a Venthyr boomy

Anyways, if sub survives tuning and is competitive then playing that. If it’s shit then sin, if sin interaction fixed and isn’t competitive then rerolling

[buoyant gyro]

This is why I lol when people talk about "man what we really need is a battle mage spec"

Oh you mean a spec nobody would ever play? got it

[hoary zephyr]

Give aspect of the Fox to survival

WoD fox

[buoyant gyro]

All 3 of the melee spots competing over who can buff ranged the best 🤣

[hoary zephyr]

Ya

Exactly

Lmao

[wind furnace]

melee vs ranged is also a encounter/class design issue

ranged is rarely punished enough to make it not worth taking

while melee is usually punished a lot harder if there is a bad boss for melee

you can also play most fights without even having melee dps, same does not apply to ranged

[nova nexus]

necro fury warrior it is

[buoyant gyro]

Or Warrior channel in guild is called "wts-banner" so seems like you're on to something 😄

[nova nexus]

uptime right now maybe only issue

but rally glory and attack power. lol

[barren forge]

Give locks a curse that increases target magic dmg taken, boom no DH needed, give hunters a pet that increases target physical dmg taken. Boom no monk needed. The ranged only meta 💪🏼

[nova nexus]

tank and/or healer can take care of those

[barren forge]

Very true

[tepid prawn]

Yeah, I thought it was with shards because they were in and I couldn't find a runeforge=0 on the code which disables the shards, which we use in our code. The numbers are completely fucked and like Koji said, something is seriously off about those sims when nothing refers to higher damage profile but still somehow gain several % out of nowhere. Our sims have everything equipped and unlocked, and still sims over 700 dps less than the sim shown there.

12.3k is still the highest we get with identical gear, double legos and 4p tierset

Idk

[hoary zephyr]

Wait the NF thing is janky?

With dream snapshot

Hmm weird

[plucky storm]

I can't figure it out either but I didn't want to think about it

[tepid prawn]

Like I can't see any line where it disables shards and 1k dps from unholy seems reasonable

But idk

[plucky storm]

well any shards would show up in the sim

and they don't

[tepid prawn]

Yeh

I mean, I wouldn't mind a nasty 13.2k sim don't grt me wrong

[hoary zephyr]

Hmm

[nova nexus]

have we tried reaching out to whomever did the sims?

[plucky storm]

hm

[hoary zephyr]

Okay so 2L 4 set NF non dom is simming fine (12.3k) but there is some weird sim that is simming higher with identical stuff? @plucky storm @tepid prawn

Is that the case?

[plucky storm]

now that I think about it @buoyant gyro is it still 100% on the 2pc with no override?

[hoary zephyr]

I am confused about it

[plucky storm]

but I kinda can't imagine

[nova nexus]

supposed updated and they ran sims as nightly.

[plucky storm]

yeah

idk it's very weird

[nova nexus]

we started there earlier

[tepid prawn]

I mean the number is already bigger than it was a day or so ago

Like it was 13.2k a few days ago

[nova nexus]

that sim is 2 days old no?

[tepid prawn]

Now it's reaching 13.4

[plucky storm]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5wAGvSS9EYu2sFDHXLwkuL

[hoary zephyr]

Where did you guys get the 13.2k sim from?

[plucky storm]

running base no simp gets me 9.4

bruh

what

[hoary zephyr]

Who sent you guys the sim

[wind furnace]

thats without tier set whispyr

[tepid prawn]

[hoary zephyr]

Or who did it

[tepid prawn]

It's the KA spreadsheet

[hoary zephyr]

Ah

[plucky storm]

Oh yeah

Forgot ptr=1

Idk I can test some more

And if it still doesn’t make sense I’ll reach out I guess

[buoyant gyro]

it shouldn't be now that the spell data is updated

I'll double check though

[plucky storm]

I checked the gain from no tier to 4pc

And it’s like 18%

So his numbers seem accurate

His baseline is just higher

[buoyant gyro]

Ah no the 2pc is still at 100% without an override

[plucky storm]

Oh really

Pog

[buoyant gyro]

When I put in the option for you it kinda stomped the spell data part

I'll get rid of it

[livid ferry]

wait so profile on KA table was 100% 2pc value

[steel meadow]

[tepid prawn]

Makes sense

[livid ferry]

subs still dead

[buoyant gyro]

yeah looks like they didn't use the option from Whispyr's sims

[livid ferry]

weird

[buoyant gyro]

@plucky storm look a bit better? 😛

[plucky storm]

11.9 is expected value

Perf

27% tho

[buoyant gyro]

Swapping it out to use the accurate whitelist and range also

Not that it should matter atm

Think everything was flagged the same

[plucky storm]

Why the % so high on both of those

[buoyant gyro]

dunno didn't make the profiles

Makes me sad it's still lower than current DPS though 😛

[plucky storm]

Oh oh

I think I’m comparing to current tier

Or something

[hoary zephyr]

Is the second image the old 2 set?

[livid ferry]

wait so assa's 4pc is still 20%?

[plucky storm]

No idea what numbers are what anymore depends what you’re comparing to

But according to the koji sim the 2 piece nerf brings it down from 41% to 27%

[nova nexus]

so tldr fuck the druids and their rogue sims.

or whoever sims those are

[steel meadow]

fuck the druids

based

[winged fiber]

sin performed pretty well today in testing but

kindred obviously makes a huge diff lol

[hoary zephyr]

@winged fiber how did sub do?

I was driving to visit family

[winged fiber]

didn't try sub today

but sin performed around where I would expect sub to be

if you're getting kindred sin is insane

[hoary zephyr]

Were you getting KA’d?

[steel meadow]

oh someone fixed nf sin in this spreadsheet

can he also fix venthyr sub

(sry i dno who the autor is)

and venthyr sin also

both these sims made without obedience

[nova nexus]

does it matter?

it’s a spreadsheet for a patch a month away

lol

[plucky storm]

????

which sims don't have obed

[steel meadow]

i mean kindred affinity spreadsheet

[plucky storm]

yeah

[nova nexus]

they were done before the bonus id fix

[plucky storm]

they were run yesterday

the obedience is fine

what sims aren't working

[nova nexus]

was told they were done 2 days ago

not at pc

[steel meadow]

no it doesnt work

[plucky storm]

which

[steel meadow]

how it does if flag has 91 sec cd

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1baQypWt2RjCYvtRQ7T5fPXqK18FeZON9XtR-LRvSGXo/edit#gid=718361547

[plucky storm]

bro

WHICH

[steel meadow]

check vent sub and vent sin

[plucky storm]

the venth sin is fine

[nova nexus]

link a damn sim

is what he’s saying

ffs

[steel meadow]

ye venth sin is fine, mb

[plucky storm]

the sub one is broken okay

[nova nexus]

fucking externals

[steel meadow]

but no
venthyr sin is made with dashing for some reason
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oX9NKBbHqaZMwrERMbZo3X/simc

[plucky storm]

yeh

early days

it's fine

not like the spreadsheet matters at all

[nova nexus]

clearly it does to some.

[hoary zephyr]

I like how for the past almost 24 hrs this convo has been sin convo

Not hating tho

[steel meadow]

i mean ye maybe
but it spreads around discords, even max checked it at stream and no matter what he said, everyone still will look at the numbers
so many ppl just may get wrong information, thats the point

[hoary zephyr]

Yeah that’s what I get scared of too

Misinformation spread is annoying

But it will get fixed

Dw

[nova nexus]

if you’re pulling info before any majors tuning is done you deserve the stupidity you bring onto yourself.

[hoary zephyr]

Bro he said he is afraid of misinformation

People are really stupid everywhere

You cant stop that

[nova nexus]

bro and if people are making final decisions NOw they’re fucking idiots.

[hoary zephyr]

I know

[nova nexus]

so who fucking cares

[hoary zephyr]

Esp on single target 5 min patchwerk PTR non tuned sims

But I got blasted by DK earlier

When I said that

So idk

[nova nexus]

don’t play melee if you’re worried about a raid spot

[hoary zephyr]

Or play warrior

Best class for prog

[nova nexus]

max giving away ANY useful information before RWF. that’s absolutely hilarious.

[plucky storm]

it's PTR tuning, legitimately inescapable. Idiots being idiots is something that will always happen. During beta when akaari gave combo points and sub was doing twice the damage of every other spec, the entire sub channel melted down into a heap of flavor of the month rerollers thinking sub was going to pop off

people will see correct numbers and lose their mind

just as much as seeing incorrect numbers and losing their mind

[nova nexus]

rogue and warrior fully maxed out 4 covenants. #meleebrain

[plucky storm]

and on a KA sheet like that, 1/2 legendaries honestly is the least of the worries

if its bad for a spec, it'll be bad

if it's good for a spec, it'll be good

anyone taking the numbers at face value and not considering them + or - about 400

is just insane

[steel meadow]

ive no idea who make this sheet but seems like u know
so ive just pointed at mistake mby it helps
wont do it if u dont want to

[quartz idol]

@plucky storm is that the default profile for those sims in the KA spreadsheet

[plucky storm]

yeah

that's what it seems like

default profile, with added cov lego, dom sockets turned off

and apparently he force scaled everything to 252

which means 252 EoN's as well

[quartz idol]

actions.cds+=/flagellation,if=variable.snd_condition&!stealthed.mantle&(spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=1&cooldown.symbols_of_death.up&!talent.shadow_focus.enabled|buff.symbols_of_death.up)&combo_points>=5