subtlety

[fleet wharf]

But honestly, I am not liking this iteration because I don't think I do super well when the spec complexity is this low

[grand hemlock]

Like, I understand for initial pulls how to effectively use it

But struggle mid fights/packs

[fleet wharf]

It's about finding the right time to plant for the channel

or, just don't use it

you can get away without using puzzlebox on sub

[tribal blade]

i'm finding the opposite, i have a lot more focus on other things now

my kick/stunning game in keys is at an all time high

[grand hemlock]

I use it mostly because I have it, been trying to get the guidon but it never drops haha

[fallow nimbus]

Cast puzzle box, step mob and start blasting

[fleet wharf]

Fair enough, I am happy for you. I just think i need to start looking at other options because if this is what future of sub looks like, this is not the kind of optimization I want to compete with other ppl on

[tribal blade]

i have yet to test puzzlebox in keys

[grand hemlock]

puzzlebox is amazing for key starts

[tribal blade]

i think sub will be going back to more complexity sooner than later

[fleet wharf]

On that note, is there any complex specs left remaining?

[tribal blade]

at least i suspect

[short aurora]

Or atleast hope

[fleet wharf]

I think enhancement looks like there's some more things to manage

[modern sentinel]

its blizz classic,remove stuff and then add it back as "new" later

[tribal blade]

it's not a popular opinion but i'm digging the chill vibe

[short aurora]

From shadow dust to this Iteration are worlds

[fallow nimbus]

That the cast needs you to stand still is annoying but we have tools to just not run to the mobs your tank pulled away while you casted box

[tribal blade]

i've been ramping down my serious play in wow, quit title pushing recently

so this was very welcome for me

[modern sentinel]

welcome to chill gaming

[tribal blade]

but that's just me, i think people not liking the simplicity is totally valid

[grand hemlock]

I enjoyed it when I had hekili, since it allowed me to focus while enjoying APM stuff

[short aurora]

Eww

[tribal blade]

ok i've never chilled to THAT level haha

[fleet wharf]

They officially support 1 button rotation for whatever it's worth

[tribal blade]

but i feel it

[rose parrot]

Hello, does the haste from a mythic guidon make a big difference compared to the heroic version? I have around 700 haste.

[gleaming crane]

And is gideon better in m+ than puzzle ?

[fleet wharf]

strictly for m+ overall puzzle is better

guidon is more of a ST focused option

the real advice is to reroll for m+

[red flame]

Fr chill gaming >

[earnest crane]

i hate Puzzle

hard to line up and there is a cast too

[wanton mantle]

U use it every 3 minutes not that hard haha

[earnest crane]

i know u can use it every 3 minute i mean its hard to line up with shadow blade tanks in dungeon dont pull with ur puzzle cd and u have to press SB sooner without it

[red flame]

How is it hard to line up 😭

Cast Puzzle + use Sblades literally like 1 second later

Use Sblades again bc trinket ain’t up

Guess what step 3 is

Cast Puzzle + use Sblades literally like 1 second later

🤯

[wanton mantle]

Im so confused im pressing my puzzle on cd with sb unless packs dead then use next pack

[short radish]

because you don't always press sblades every 1 min 30

sometimes you m ight press it after 1:50

[keen dome]

Esp in pug situations, Puzzle Box can be a huge pain in the ass.

[short radish]

and then its like okay do i wait another 10 seconds?

[red flame]

Yes

[wanton mantle]

Yes

[red flame]

xd

[wanton mantle]

LMAO

[red flame]

It literally says somewhere to wait is sblades has less than 10secs left

[tribal blade]

if i was actually pushing i might look into puzzle

[red flame]

So why wouldn’t you for less than 10secs on pbox

[tribal blade]

but doing weekly keys

nah

[mossy spruce]

on salhadar, do we hold our second blades for a bit to send it during dmg amp?

[short radish]

because then do you just not send sectech?

and dry shuriken storm and sdance

[red flame]

You generally don’t dry sectec so I mean

[short radish]

for the start of a big pull

yeah

you don't

but my point is that it is awkward to play in m+

[red flame]

Exactly so just dance?

[short radish]

knowing when to hold when to not

[red flame]

& wait 10secs

Then go burst when it all up

If you’re waiting less than 10secs

[short radish]

then you've held sblades for 40 seconds

do that 1 more time and you've lost a use

[wanton mantle]

Its really not, people are so infatuated with holding cds in keys. Just send them.

[tribal blade]

depends

you can't just send on cd all the time

especially when key levels get higher

[short radish]

yeah this works as a principle in general

[wanton mantle]

You cant sit on them waiting for perfect timing either

[short radish]

yes.

[tribal blade]

you can if there's a big pull coming up that needs to die asap

or stuff needs to die asap

or a burn

[short radish]

thats the point though there's no clear cut answer in m+

generally you are correct holding is bad

the more you hold the less you cast and the less you cast the less overall you do

[wanton mantle]

In the specifics of puzzle box ur making ur thought on it way more difficult than it needs to be.

[short radish]

but there are definitely scenarios where

sblade up, pbox 10 seconds

and you send sblade without pbox

[wanton mantle]

U shouldnt be

[tribal blade]

i watched a 20 MT kira and casual did where they do a massive pull with all the mobs that throw glaives

and that's a ticking clock to kil lthe pack

[red flame]

That sounds dumb af when it has less then 10secs left

If it were 30 yea send it

[keen dome]

I'm excited for S2 'cos puzzle box will go away

[red flame]

10?

[wanton mantle]

You're saying it feels bad when your playing it wrong

[short radish]

okay if the pack is going to live for 25 seconds

[red flame]

No pack in a high key is dying in less than 10secs

[short radish]

waiting 10 seconds

means you don't get full use

[red flame]

You have almost your whole burst still

15secs

It’s not that hard to figure

[short radish]

brother are you intentionally just going hurr durr always send

okay you you're saying you just sit on sectech and sdance for 10 seconds?

because then now youre sitting on sblade for 20

[red flame]

Dance & tec

Then wait for charge

Then sblades

[short radish]

okay cool now you've sat on sblades for even longer

[red flame]

It really ain’t that deep

[fleet wharf]

@short radish

[short radish]

yeah my bad

[fleet wharf]

stop feeding

[short radish]

i fell for it

thats my fault

[alpine wraith]

my man got snacked

[wanton mantle]

OR hear me out

U wait the 8s spamming bp and st

Spend 2s on puzzle

And blow ur load. 8s aint that deep

[red flame]

Nope apparently you have to stand there motionless for 10secs

I don’t make the rules

[wheat edge]

famous 2 min spec sub rogue

[dry flame]

Just press button and always box with blades, not sure what ppl argue about

[wanton mantle]

For real lol

[wanton mantle]

Like people are pissed at the cast time i get it. But actually using it aint that deep

[warm marlin]

owned @short radish

[dry flame]

Pretty much. There are so many factors in M+, that it's always situational

[short radish]

never thought i'd get hit by this

[dry flame]

Get mechanics, needing to cc, etc.

[short radish]

its so jover for me

[keen dome]

@short radish turn him into a rabbit

[red flame]

Joever

[warm marlin]

what goes around comes around bucko

[red flame]

Anything but a rabbit

[short radish]

honestly my fault for talking about m+

[red flame]

Plz god not back in the magician’s hat

[keen dome]

How are you gonna push puzzle box when you're a BUNNY RABBIT

[dry flame]

Honestly if you play high enough keys to matter, you wouldn't be playing sub anyways

[keen dome]

HUH???

[short radish]

i should have known better

[red flame]

https://tenor.com/view/noooooo-eric-cartman-south-park-season23ep03shots-no-gif-19444386

[wheat edge]

people timed 18s week 1 on sub?

[keen dome]

they're built different

out of the expensive lego

[dry flame]

Yeah, that's not in opposition to the fact that Assa outperforms sub

[keen dome]

I'm built out of the cheap temu knockoff

[dry flame]

Zac plays outlaw, that doesn't mean that outlaw is op

[wheat edge]

true should always just play the best class, everything else is useless dont play it

[dry flame]

Many things can be true at once

[wanton mantle]

I mean eh? Even whispyr said assass n sub pretty even not alot of mobsx need prio damage long as ur group isnt trash

[dry flame]

Yep

[mossy spruce]

How accurate is the sim? I feel as if it's impossible for me tocome close to my simmed dps

[tribal blade]

uh

i dunno about that one

[keen dome]

Was that before or after the buffs

[tribal blade]

the entire of M+ revolves around having big prio mobs

[fleet wharf]

Wouldn't DS be a bit more playable after .5 patch cuz we won't be turbofucked when we lose mark?

[tribal blade]

and in general unless you have 1 spec that does high funnel/prio

you're gonna be left fighting that mob solo when all the smallies die

[short radish]

yeah i was originally on the "theres plenty of mobs around that don't need funnel, sub is fine" train

but idk after doing a few

there kinda are a lot of those mobs

[tribal blade]

just thinking about MT and seat

alone

AA

every single dungeon

[short radish]

even skyreach

[tribal blade]

tbh

skyreach yeah

[short radish]

there's always a prio mob

[tribal blade]

always

[fleet wharf]

So miserable when you're in low mobcount situations

[tribal blade]

and they'll always be the most dangerous mob

[fleet wharf]

idk, after .5 i feel assa will prolly be better then, no?

[short radish]

could be an outlaw tier tbh

i dunno what outlaw ST is like in m+ build though

[fleet wharf]

on that note, if I already have MH dagger, I open vaults for outlaw now right?

[short radish]

a real MH?

[wanton mantle]

Was in the sub like 3 days ago so just after. U have 2 other dps in the group if u cant figure out prio damage man idk better teammates ig

[short radish]

then yeah i'd open as outlaw

[fleet wharf]

what u mean a real mh?

[short radish]

non crafted

[fleet wharf]

yea, ofc

but fair question tbh

[warm marlin]

outlaw has an extra item in the loot pool until beloren

[short radish]

RIP

never an outlaw season

[fleet wharf]

I'm kind of dumb, so keep opening as sub/assa?

[warm marlin]

if you care about getting an outlaw weapon open as outlaw, if there's other loot you want and you don't really care about outlaw weapon then you're polluting the pool with an extra item

if you dont open as sub or assa

[lilac stag]

Imagine a vers mastery 1h taking the place of a proc ring in your vault.

[short radish]

[lilac stag]

Just save a spark for a 1h imo

[short radish]

i can't

[lilac stag]

You can

[short radish]

gotten a single drop from myth raid

im sitting on like 80 crests atm

[lilac stag]

buy a boe

Get better luck

[tribal blade]

damn tough

[keen dome]

Invite me so I can get you them. I've got a trick

[warm marlin]

get a more stupid lootcouncil

[lilac stag]

This is what happens when you hate on 🏄 🏄‍♀️ 👍

https://tenor.com/view/danhausen-curse-gif-26518654

[tribal blade]

nooo not the mafic

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/nodding-yes-hell-yeah-chess-nice-gif-23476064

Be on loot council.

[short radish]

did a 3 boss clear mythic pug earlier this morning

and 5 boes dropped

4 from one mob

(it did not drop for me)

[fleet wharf]

damn, have you tried being luckier?

[lilac stag]

idk no mythic drops into week3 seems like you pissed someone off

[short radish]

yeah but i keep fucking up

[short radish]

no leather has dropped

[warm marlin]

1 mythic piece is a bit tragic

[short radish]

except a singular helm which i got

and a belt which i already crafted

[warm marlin]

even if it is better for leather to go to the dev dhs of the world

[short radish]

oh acutally the chest did go to the dev dh

but yeah

loot has been abysmal

[lilac stag]

So you got a drop. You just crafted wrong.

[tribal blade]

it does seem like leather loot is cursed

[fleet wharf]

dude our sim numbers are so tiny compared to what devourers get

[short radish]

very wrong

i crafted my belt absolutely sleep deprived

and sent hero crests on it

[warm marlin]

hmm

thats tough

[lilac stag]

one too many fosters

[tribal blade]

that's one of my biggest fears

[short radish]

yeah i have nfi why i did it

acutal brain fart moment

[warm marlin]

I will be crafting with hero crests next week

both my embellishments are still 259

[lilac stag]

I decided to sim all of our raiders to see what heroic gaze was worth and how many needed it. Ele shaman like 4 level lower sims 106 vs me at 98

[fleet wharf]

yea, that and haste being fucky on sims is really annoying

[lilac stag]

My trust the sim is only like 500 higher than my 700 gearset

I did email Seriallos and this was the summary of where we are: ```Real breakpoints like this do happen but they are extremely rare. I don't have any plans on adding explicit stat goals/constraints to Raidbots since they would likely be a significant source of headaches and in accurate sims over time (people forgetting to clear the breakpoints, people using out-of-date breakpoints, people using them in the wrong situation, etc).

But there may be some other ways to try to account for real breakpoints like this so I'll keep digging in a bit.```

[vale pine]

using ap weapon oils for the sim is a good workaround

(while using haste oils in game)

[lilac stag]

It’s not. As soon as you’re trying to sim an item with a significant haste variance

Ie my 32 haste neck vs crown neck

That little difference from weapon oils doesn’t impact it correctly

[shadow snow]

if i have the haste cap without the oil, should i switch to another ?

[short radish]

i've just been vibing 700ish haste

[lilac stag]

Likely not. Crit still good.

[short radish]

and then stat weighting to see whether i need more mastery or crit

[lilac stag]

Drop haste someplace else

[short radish]

we feelycraft our way this tier

[fiery fog]

i still think the way to approach current optimal gear is to just be somewhere between 650 and 700 haste and put the rest in crit/mastery (mastery probably a little higher)

the sim is just not reliable

"oh you have 670 haste? time to ged rid of everyhting haste related and put vers somwhere!"

[dry flame]

Yep, whenever i sim sub, it asks me to drop under 650 haste, so i just sit around 684-700 and get as much mastery as possible

[lilac stag]

I can make crown neck go from -79 dps to +1024 dps in sims keeping the same ilvl on my toon.

[short radish]

yup pretty much this

+- a few stats everywhere

[tribal blade]

the good thing is the diff between having more/less of mast and crit will not be the thing that tanks your parse

[short radish]

idk im not gonna lose sleep over it

[fiery fog]

well, with crown neck you would likely need to switch some gear around anyway

[warm marlin]

my sim puts me to 630-650 ish haste, i look at what gem it has (like mastery crit), swap them to haste/mastery accordingly until im at 670 or whateer

[lilac stag]

and that’s the item you likely need to have an accurate sim on for your LC

[fiery fog]

yup

[lilac stag]

and AP vs oils won’t help that

[fiery fog]

make a sim with gear youd wear with that neck

(do a nacked sim)

[lilac stag]

which was the reason of contacting seriallos to check for work around within raidbots to make droptimizer / topgear more breakpoint friendly

maybe he cooks something up idk

didn’t hurt to ask

[warm marlin]

my recommendation here is to be the yellow class cuck and let the specs that actually do damage have it first

[vale pine]

think thats more for #assassination

[fleet wharf]

It'd be wild if seriallos implements something, that'd mean they care more than blizz does about the spec* lol

[warm marlin]

I will put the big upgrade on alleria neck once my dev dhs have it first

and spriest maybe

[fiery fog]

well if youre in the encounter, you getting 3k vs someone else gettin 1k is still you doing more damage with that item

[lilac stag]

Well when you live in a world where your meta specs perform under the yellow cuck class

[short radish]

you reckon stats matter more for sub?

[warm marlin]

then the sim dont matter do it

[short radish]

or small minor stat differences*

[vale pine]

well yes

you want a certain amount of haste

[lilac stag]

Still needs some consideration. They both have influence on loot decisions

[vale pine]

if you remove all of it, you lose damage

[warm marlin]

my slightly better st sim doesnt mean much when they will be gaining much more exploding prio adds with eradicate

[vale pine]

also mastery/crit are technically better than vers

even tho the diffrence is not as big

[dry flame]

Yep, feelcraft got me here (no flask // with oils)

[vale pine]

stats don't matter is good if you have all stats close, like assassiantion had for many years

tho other specs often had specific stats to focus on

[lilac stag]

Well he’s very user driven and he has made a very nice career out of a single website

[vale pine]

remember outlaw basically only wanted crit and mastery for a while

[gilded garden]

wtf is going on at this #1 Chim myth log?

[vale pine]

its very weird

stealthi linked me the log earlier too

[fiery fog]

a gamer

build different

[vale pine]

the log seems like it is compromised or counting some things twice

[warm marlin]

there's a log bug or exploit that comes around every once in a while

[lilac stag]

SV hunter took over Dave

[fiery fog]

the fight is only 2 minutes

[warm marlin]

their gcds occur every 0.1s instead of 1s

[fiery fog]

compraed to 6

[vale pine]

^

[dry flame]

Chim is such a pad slop. My first kill has much higher parse, than my second, even though i did 3-4M more boss dmg

[warm marlin]

pretty fast opener

[lilac stag]

Hasted logs

[fiery fog]

holy

logs have bloodlust

[brave raptor]

2 min kill timer lol

[gilded garden]

I overtook Whispyr on Assa Chimaerus log

[short radish]

ah yeah. more so just the "oh no i have too much mastery or too much crit thing"

i did run a topgear

and it said to recraft everything into crit/haste instead of haste/mast

for like 0.3% gain

which tbh i did because i needed to for paladins

ecks dee

[warm marlin]

if im being honest i think sims are mega mega overrated for gearing decisions *in early prog

there are so many more important factors than the dps number gain

[short radish]

me when i spend 30 mins simming different combinations of darkmoon sigil hunt against the different bosses of the raid, only to find that even with proccing vers the entire time 2x arcanoweave still sucks

[warm marlin]

i dont think ive simmed my vault in a few seasons now, far more important to look at where each thing can potentially drop, who in my guild already has those slots with mythic items, etc

[gilded garden]

Feelsgood being #44 best assa log and still only parsing 86

[warm marlin]

idc if boots sim 200dps higher than shoulders now when all other leather guys in guild have boots and no one has shoulders, i take shoulders for good of the raid

[warm marlin]

ye when esra asked about this i thought this would be the outcome

hunt is op

[short radish]

yeah and barely 0.2% difference between vers and crit proc as well

with my gear level

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sXPuhkAb2XRLxerpnJn58y
acutally this one when i was running was 0.4% diff

which made me go down the rabbit hole of "is 2x arcanoweave better for lura"

[alpine wraith]

arcanoweave also buffs your friends

so it is usually better

we just craft weapon because

[warm marlin]

mythic gaze

[vale pine]

haha, you gain more by switching race

[alpine wraith]

it is very efficient

[short radish]

yeah exactly

[vale pine]

i mean

[alpine wraith]

but if you have 2 leather items you can change

[vale pine]

my race change is 1.5% dps

if i rly want to

(undead sucks)

[short radish]

oooft

[warm marlin]

i should really look at how much damage this actually is

[short radish]

sinc eim still a pbox enjoyer

[warm marlin]

offhand weapon slot is so goated though

[gilded garden]

Is there a race dps list?

[short radish]

i really should see what orc sims at for me

[alpine wraith]

i mean if you already crafted 2 leather

[warm marlin]

nice little home for the 259 sandbag piece

[fleet wharf]

bloodmallet

[alpine wraith]

i went leather pants

[warm marlin]

I am in a relatively unique position to have spent all my myth crests without spending any on crafts

[short radish]

damn must be nice

[alpine wraith]

but i will go engi for wrist and already crafted engi boots

[azure thicket]

ye crafted pants as well

[alpine wraith]

im saving in case i get wep

but after vorasius dies every week i just send them

[warm marlin]

we have actually dropped a good amount of leather

1 total gaze between all difficulties and splits though

[short radish]

RIP

[azure thicket]

kind of out of needing stuff other than trinkets at this point which is nice i guess

[short radish]

i got mine from vault thankfully

[wheat edge]

my hero box from 4 myth dungeons luck this week has been pretty crazy, gaze on rogue, plume on warrior and crown neck on dh (I play havoc tho so not crazy crazy)

[alpine wraith]

i got hc gaze but no luck on myth

[azure thicket]

as long as we have myth chim down by the .5 patch im happeh

[warm marlin]

surely i win the 3/26 this week to get it

[wheat edge]

I swear the sound that gaze makes will make me swap back to plume tho

[short radish]

[azure thicket]

how does gaze even work

[short radish]

surely guidon drops next week

[azure thicket]

touch orb?

[warm marlin]

some people got all the luck

[wheat edge]

nah its just a buff

but it makes some weird radar sound everytime it procs

[azure thicket]

guidon with no dps trinket is objectively worse than no guidon

tbh

also that's @_@

[tribal blade]

gaze is a surprisingly noisy trinket

makes a LOT of sound

[lilac stag]

We’ve had 13 gaze’s acquired through raid and vaults. No mythic via drops yet.

[mossy spruce]

!log

[lilac stag]

Guidon. 1 champ, 1 heroic and 2 mythic. All via drops

[warm marlin]

mythic paladins

2 of those gazes are champ track they got from pugging

[keen dome]

smh stealing champ track trinkets from hard working puggers

[azure thicket]

we had one drop in normal and the two or three people who have em got via pugs

[lilac stag]

Purchasing

[dry flame]

This is true and real

All my loot got stolen

[mossy spruce]

Would love for someone to take a look at this!
I can't figure out why the avg cast damage of my finishers is so low...

[keen dome]

Those darn organized raiders

[vale pine]

we had gaze drop once in normal so far

XD

[dry flame]

Organized criminals!

guilds should be named Cartels

[keen dome]

I will take back my words and deeds if I get a chim kill though

[dry flame]

you can do it, then someone will yoink gaze from you like me

[keen dome]

I would legit just take vault and a kill

Because then I can rekill on reset easily

A lot of pugging is about the pugs next week, imo.

I want AotC week 1 because then Week 2 is going to be massively easier

Same principle as pugging M+

[dry flame]

we're already in week 2 :x

[keen dome]

We're in week 4!

[dry flame]

well of MoQD

[keen dome]

I missed the boat on the early Chim kills

on Mythic.

So now I've gotta get lucky or just wait for it to get raid buffed

[tribal blade]

i can imagine it's a tough boss to pug

just takes 1 person not doing the fight properly to kill half the raid

[keen dome]

Yep

Kicks lol

[tribal blade]

also has a very real dps check

the kicks yeah, but also the phases

if you stand on the people not in your phase you'll do a driveby

[short radish]

takes like 5 people not doing right

literally 2 mechanics

do damage to the big add

open eyes for interrupt

[tribal blade]

true yeah

i think the major thing though would be the boss dps check

[short radish]

even that is relatively chill now

when people are all 270

i somehow managed to do it with 1 dk

[tribal blade]

prob yeah, i haven't been in on the boss since our prog kill lol

[short radish]

last week in a pug

[tribal blade]

ah ok i just have the view of doing it week 1 thenm

or week 2 whenever we killed it

[fiery fog]

im in a boost for mythic chimaerus today
the fight is literally just having 2 dks for grips and do dmg now

[keen dome]

Pugs will find a way

[lilac stag]

imagine having competent range interrupters

couldn’t be us

[fiery fog]

if there would only be a broken ahh spec that also had a 15sec range kick

[lilac stag]

I laugh, but swapping to numbing got our prog kill

[fiery fog]

doesnt even sound bad

with how fast the fears on mythic are

[lilac stag]

yea the dmg is predicable

So atrophic was kinda whatever

Warlocks getting curses out not predictable

[dry flame]

I literally got whisper after first pug kill how my kicks carried (the mages had 1 kick for the whole fight)

Plenty of gear this week and onwards

So it's kicks and dps check easy nowadays

[lilac stag]

me tossing blinds out on range interrupts for saladbar.

[short radish]

gotta love bonus loot week

[lilac stag]

we really are the mage cc bot in PvP and pve

[tribal blade]

ah ok yeah i'm just living in early chim prog headspace then haha

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/always-has-been-among-us-astronaut-space-betrayal-gif-23836476

[dry flame]

salhadar is still difficult to pug, so i dont know (difficult to have a group not fall appart until that point),

But for Dreamrift, its actually so easy to brick if people throw CC instead of interrupts on fear adds

[tribal blade]

i can see saladbar being a nightmare to pug

[tribal blade]

from 10 pulls of lura the other night

[dry flame]

right now, the main problem is myth lockout - if even one person leaves, it kinda bricks the save, because nobody wants to join with bosses downed

I did first 2 this week and it was a pain to manage bunch of ego andys to not blame each other constantly

[tribal blade]

yep that's the nightmare of pugging mythic

[somber sun]

How do you guys deal with the windows where shadow dance and vanish are on cd ?

Do you wait until you have 2 stacks of shadow dance again, or pop up the first one that comes up right away ?

[tribal blade]

wait until sectec is off cd

then fire dance

dance+sectec acts like 1 cd

[dry flame]

[somber sun]

👍 So in that phase where both are coming up I should just look to backstab to max combo points and press macro (dance+sectec) ?

[violet pebble]

is really that bad when I am using 1 dagger and 1 axe ? how much dps loss is that ?

[dry flame]

don't waste CP/energy, but yes, ideally you fire off the macro at 6+ combo points

[dry flame]

not good

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[keen dome]

Instead of trying to kill MChim I just spent the time making lasagne

[dry flame]

based

but also try to get it

[keen dome]

It's currently in it's ragu stage

the most important stage

[dry flame]

I just made sweet potato fries

[keen dome]

Hell yeah sweet potatoes own

[dry flame]

(but like, baked)

[fiery fog]

let me introduce you to an 8 sec kidney shot

probably the best thing after grips for this add

[dry flame]

after grips

problem is random CC before they are grouped

[fiery fog]

tell them to not do that

xd

[dry flame]

telling them every time, but its hard being ranged

you have to click or mouseover target

AND press your kick

i empathise with them

[fiery fog]

with how my cds always alligned, i was also doing a kidney shot on that add once it was in the group and then sent blades and stuff

[keen dome]

that's a good idea

I assume that'll happen in a pug is you let themg ather, stun it, and a DK pulls it outta the group into a corner and then you wipe

[fiery fog]

the add literally dies in 8 seconds

[edgy dove]

Sorry for the question, I don't seem to find the info online: Does anyone know whether pickpocketing affects auto-attacking (or dps in general) in any shape, way or form? I have it macrod for use during Shadow Dance and just wanted to make sure I don't int anything by accident with that

[wintry heart]

I’m starting to do keys that are a little more challenging and my two target cleave is buns.

[tardy solar]

yeh so you need to sheath your weap to pickpocket, so it literally stops your autoattack

[wintry heart]

IE Windrunner boss and Caverns boss

[edgy dove]

Ah, alright, tyvm :)

[tardy solar]

(im joking, it doesnt do anything)

[wintry heart]

Is it just SS builder -> black powder since I have potent powder

[edgy dove]

haha, fair enough, figured I must add some auto attack command to the macro possibly, but thx then <3

[tardy solar]

most people macro it to things like sap

[edgy dove]

Yea I put it onto Shadowstrike, but I use the sap one too already, tyvm

[tulip light]

Yes. Fan as builder outside dance

[wintry heart]

Is our two target cleave kinda just buns or am I washed

[red flame]

landing the full cp kidney shot & seeing that 8sec duration is just its always such an amazing moment

[lilac stag]

chat are we winning?

[hollow spear]

Did you get his groceries?

[hollow spear]

But you're losing out on a 23k evis

[fiery fog]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-no-oh-no-anyway-gif-18887547

[unique sentinel]

people are so suprised when im top dps in m+. Like is community perception so bad for rogues?

[fiery fog]

rogues are good in m+ atm

[unique sentinel]

yeah people dont know that i guess

[fiery fog]

ppl just know what the 3 best specs are

and dont care about anything else

10s need meta comps

[lilac stag]

nah I used my CC ;o

[fiery fog]

why would you do that

[lilac stag]

undergeared tank hah

[lucid lily]

The three best specs: Subtlety, Assassination, and Outlaw

[fiery fog]

the best cc is dead mobs

[lilac stag]

druid was going to have a panic attack

idk why I ran MC. poor early morning decisions made

[fiery fog]

worst dungeon this seaso

[lilac moss]

Rogue + Warr + Cat + Brewmaster + Rsham is my fav comp

Goes brrrr

[short radish]

sorry no more rogue life for me

[fiery fog]

how dare you

i cant

[lilac stag]

Why are you sorry?

[fiery fog]

the audacity to show yourself here after such betrayal

[short radish]

because i want to live skyreach 2nd boss soaks

[wintry heart]

That shit was hurting on the key I ran last night lol

[short radish]

yeah it's a feint DR angle but like

cheat death

[vale osprey]

No more pad on adds messages of encouragement for you

[short radish]

[vale osprey]

Go close your discord or something, pink class idiot smh

[fleet wharf]

I don't get the hate, he's jsut playing the superior sub rogue that has utility

[short radish]

bro i feel so useful

i sac people

i can bres

i can bop

i can cleanse dispel

[fleet wharf]

well the issue my friend is that your baseline is the worst fucking utility class in the game

[short radish]

i have a working immunity

[halcyon roost]

What skyreach soak huh

[hollow spear]

He'll propose to you once we get our aoe blind back

[short radish]

2nd boss beam

[halcyon roost]

Oh right the beam

Isnt it only 3 beams

[short radish]

yeah but it hurts 🙂

[empty bobcat]

so cloud cover good for us?

[alpine wraith]

will be decent

not crazy overall but more burst

[halcyon roost]

Yea but there's 5 people is what i mean

[empty bobcat]

nice 🙂

[lilac stag]

[hollow spear]

But scath

It's not 18%???

[short radish]

minus tank is 4

[lilac stag]

Math hard

[wintry heart]

Realest thing ever said in here

[fair stump]

Hey, at what haste breakpoint is it worth waiting for the second sectec while within blades?

Or at what CD, 15 secs?

[lilac stag]

!guidon

[wicked jolt]

Light Company Guidon (haste on use) Optimization:
When? - Only with the Season 1 4-set bonus and Guidon.
How? - During Shadow Blades, line up your second Shadow Dance with the last 8 seconds of Shadow Blades instead of using them back-to-back.
Why? - This allows you to fit another Secret Technique into Shadow Blades+Shadow Dance. It will not be supercharged but thats ok in this scenario.

[fallow nimbus]

Where did blizz say that we get aoe blind back?

[grand viper]

12.0.5 update

[short radish]

rogue will be saved then

[wintry heart]

Rogue is saved when we can pick where our weapons sheathe

[summer dragon]

Just walked into server, but does rogue need to be saved? Been having plenty of fun myself, though I did get miffed when the AoE blind was taken.

[fleet wharf]

I mean depends on what your goals are, but probably not

[lilac stag]

https://klipy.com/gifs/tobey-maguire-sad-1

[summer dragon]

I mean, subtlety deathstalker rogue is all I ever play because I like it, and I play only solo content, so I guess I don't have anything to compare it to.

[lilac stag]

guys it is him! 🏄 🏄‍♀️ 👍

[fleet wharf]

well you can start by not playing deathstalker to have a less miserable time

[fallow nimbus]

Got a link for that? I couldn't find any rogue notes for that

[real python]

currently playing hero radiant plume + normal alnseer, just looted hero track puzzle and while it does sim a bit above (+850 ST/ +5k 8 targets) i wonder if i want to go through puzzle cast suffering 🤔

[grand viper]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/patch-12-0-5-ptr-development-notes-for-march-19th-class-changes-and-new-demon-380874

[summer dragon]

Oh boy.

[lilac stag]

harmless forum joke. even have the M name... very sus

[summer dragon]

I lack the context to understand

[fleet wharf]

Dont worry about it

[summer dragon]

https://klipy.com/gifs/ight-ok

[lilac stag]

#subtlety message minor context, if you're bored

then goto NA forums

[ornate lake]

Is it advisable to craft a 285 off hand weapon?

Still running a champion off hand lol

[fleet wharf]

whats on your mh?

[ornate lake]

285 with embellishment

[fleet wharf]

oh gains are low, craft something else

[ornate lake]

So basically is it worth crafting two 285 daggers?

[modern sentinel]

just get oh from vault, well mh in that case

[ornate lake]

So I better upgrade belt to 285 then?

[lilac stag]

very rarely, jewelry, pants wrists, cloak and back all typically better

[ornate lake]

Playing with a champion offhand felt kinda poor

[fallow nimbus]

Get vault dagger prererable in raid slot with dragons killed or m+ slot with dragon weapon drop for free upgrade

[fleet wharf]

I think a big piece (prolly legs) is the best use of your crests, but essentially, sim it if you aren't sure

[lilac stag]

I’d put on a green OH if it got me to 685 haste

[naive creek]

I'm trying to fine tune my rotation. Do I need to track shadow techniques?
Do I do anything special with coupe other than instantly use it?
Do I do anything special with AA?

[dry flame]

• You only need to "track it" whenever you are SD to optimise the apex
• Black Powder Macro to cast Coup whenever available automatically
• Algeth'ar Academy there are many things you can do

[ornate lake]

1. Better to enter dance with 2-3 stacks of shadow technique to have a guaranteed proc of apex after your sec tech.

2. Ideally macro coupe to black powder to cast it immediately whenever it is available. But I would still keep bp on a seperate keybind, as there will be situations I would rather keep the coupe for the next pack or when dance is about to come off cd.

3. Other than the minor aa optimization in dance, I don't think there's anything extra one can do

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[naive creek]

1.) So to accomplish this, is best practice to just auto attack for a few seconds and nothing else before going into SD?

[shadow snow]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Essential:

• ArcUI / BetterCDM - Enhanced Cooldown Manager.
• WangBar / SensaiBar - Resource bar (when using blizzard CDM)
• MSUF / UUF - Unit frame mods.
• Platynator - Nameplate Addon.
  Quality of Life:
• Buff Reminders - Food/Flask/Poison Reminder.
• WilduTools - QOL enhancements.
• Mute Cold Blood sound
• **The first dance tracker

[lilac stag]

No. Best practice is to do this before Sectech is up. If dance and sectech are ready you just send regardless of stacks of sht.

[naive creek]

Sorry to clarify I meant for a few seconds before both come off cd

[ornate lake]

Say you have 3-4 seconds till SD and ST come off cd. Don't use finisher and just auto attack IF you don't have enough Shadow Tech stacks

[finite current]

Hi hi. Has someone done any kind of simulation onto single target being sub? Does it say like we doin 68k or something like that of dps? kekw

[lilac stag]

me thinks you’re confused there illidari

[fiery fog]

patchwork sim?

[vale pine]

i still need to setup my group frames, currently use blizz defaults

[wintry heart]

My group frames are so far outta my eyesight that I don’t even know what’s going on 😂

[vale pine]

haha

my tank died last skyreach

and i was like

"why am i the only one killing the egg"

[south kernel]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[left ledge]

ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp ss bp

im glad we're back to this

HAHAHAHA

I LOVE DOING ROGUE KEYS

[little ferry]

it s hard to grasp whether it s sarcastic or not kekw

[karmic harbor]

Assa is actually fun in keys btw

I'm done playing sub in keys

[plush roost]

Assa is just better in keys as well gg

[left ledge]

you know what

maybe i just ply assa

sub is

giving me cancer

i thought we moved away from this gameplay in our DF rework

[plush roost]

After it was found that every single potential sub optimization is just a neutral or loss, it is a bit residentsleeper

[left ledge]

but no we're back to this dogshit

[plush roost]

Supercharge coup force in aoe, neutral or loss. Apex coup force, loss. Apex anything, neutral zzz

[left ledge]

its just

shadowcraft man

[dry flame]

[raw coral]

Anyway to see what the stats are for this. How much haste does sub need nowadays, and is there a target for crit or mastery?

[vagrant fossil]

700 haste

[tepid trellis]

700 haste, then just rest into crit/mast

[lucid jackal]

I keep asking this but I don't get a good answer

What is so boring about storm black powder

But shadowstrike evis was fun

[vale pine]

i gave you an answer the last time you asked

tho i assume this does mean it wasn't to your liking

[finite current]

Yup

[dense geode]

It doesnt feel like I'm doing anything meaningful, even tho Strike evis is the same thing my contribution felt better

Can I use a haste flask for the 700

[fiery fog]

what i mean is you can just do that :D

[vagrant fulcrum]

Shadowstrike animation big dopamine

[plush roost]

Well for one, you didnt only strike evis, you strike powder at 4+, which means ur target count mattered, you could also forgo powder for prio damage and evis anyway. Also you storm powdered out of dance and it made the rotation slightly different. Also the way our kit interacted with cp refunds was somewhat different which lead to a very nice flow and distinct choices to your keystone damage

I m o

[finite current]

That's what it says in the patchwerk sim kekw

[warm marlin]

Shadowstrike also doesn’t guarantee fill your cp bar like storm so there was some variability

[south kernel]

i'd alos say the danse macabre optimzations the early rupture spread and having to press symbols added SO MUCH more

you just pressed more than 2 buttons

[left ledge]

who said this is fun either

who

please

[fiery fog]

your name is gloomblade enthusiast

[south kernel]

i mean last tier sub was fun af

[plush roost]

Also this, having to maintain a dot was very important

[fiery fog]

(its infinitely better than backstab)

[plush roost]

Also we forgot about backstab first gcd in dance

[left ledge]

who is finding storm bp/ss evis spam fun

[plush roost]

There was just

[left ledge]

who

[plush roost]

More

[stone quiver]

Hey any sub with good parses (80%+) on mythic, that I could bother for a moment?

[left ledge]

our apex is literally just shadowcraft

they just removed shadowcraft

put it on an apex

called it a day

[south kernel]

what are u on about?

they added the black bars

[left ledge]

[south kernel]

this is so much more than shadowcraft

[plush roost]

[left ledge]

[south kernel]

[fiery fog]

i want dust back

[left ledge]

like i genuinely lose my sanity playing this spec

[left ledge]

this is the exact problem we had in DF but worse somehow

i had more fun pressing gloomblade in DF

than whatever tf im doing on sub right now

[plush roost]

In df strom was 35 energy

Good times

[left ledge]

do i even have energy now

i dont know

i dont have an energy bar on sub

because its fucking useless

[fiery fog]

didnt we also have more energy at some point

[plush roost]

Not out of dance u dont

Xd

[left ledge]

im just spamming backstab or storm out of dance until the combo point bar fills

so i dont even notice if it goes off or not

[vale pine]

i repeat what i answered last time.
It is never strike + evis spam vs. storm + bp spam.
The question is more nouanced, but these details is the "why" he asks for

[left ledge]

the sound effects are ass

the VFX is ass

[vale pine]

its the same as saying

[left ledge]

the rotation is ass

[vale pine]

counterstrike is just 2 buttons

[left ledge]

the cooldowns are ass

[south kernel]

lowkey if they just added a flying ass

[vale pine]

w and right click

[south kernel]

it'd be better

[left ledge]

ok idk about that one fuu

[south kernel]

like a purple ass slams into ur target

[vale pine]

why do people like a game that only has 2 buttons?

[left ledge]

CS has a lot of mechanics in movement and shooting

[warm marlin]

Lowkey if I had real burst I might have some fun with it

[plush roost]

Idk i think the framework for current sub is kinda there. It just lacks

[left ledge]

but yeah i kinda get your point

[warm marlin]

But don’t have that either

[left ledge]

there was more nuance to sub

there is nothing right now

[vale pine]

i exreggerated to make a point

[left ledge]

yeah yeah i get it

[dry flame]

Sounds like you are just not enjoying rogue Gloom, and are looking for reasons to justify those feelings.

[plush roost]

I think sub would be very nice if 3 of our 5 capstones werent hot dog shit

If gloomblade was a viable choice path

[vale pine]

there is, but most of it is not fun

[warm marlin]

Nah subti is right and I don’t really want to play my rogue in keys either

[vale pine]

you have stuff like haste breakpoints

[left ledge]

no actually

[vale pine]

you might miss a gcd

[left ledge]

i do think assa is kind of enjoyable

[plush roost]

Assa is fun highkey

[left ledge]

sub is just feeling like shit right now

[warm marlin]

I played it once and I just don’t like dot spread gameplay with blizzard nameplates

[vale pine]

i do think sub feels fine

[dry flame]

play assa, that's what i did after i hit 15s +

[left ledge]

like how is my rogue not vault filled and my rat alts are perma vault filled ive NEVER had this problem before

[warm marlin]

Or debuff filtering

[void ocean]

Assa best that has been in a while, rotation wise

[vale pine]

its just a lot less engaging

[left ledge]

i mean fuu

[vale pine]

because most of what made the spec unique and lead to interessting gameplay decisions

[left ledge]

what do i even do on this spec

[void ocean]

If only they increase CT spread to at least 5 ffs

[left ledge]

i just press my macro

[warm marlin]

My ddh hit level 86 today

[left ledge]

and spam 2 buttons

[vale pine]

is now just a simple decision you can't change

[warm marlin]

I’m more excited to try Aug for my group than to play rogue cuh

[plush roost]

I simply count ct casts and multiply by 2 idk

[warm marlin]

That’s where we’re at

[plush roost]

Damn thats tuff

Aug isnt exactly

Rivetting gameplay

[warm marlin]

I’ve played it before

[plush roost]

Gala was losing his mind

On paladins

[left ledge]

ok? 😭

[plush roost]

Lmfao

[dry flame]

you're crashing out, idk what to tell you - i dont think any logical argument from anyone here would "convince" you

[left ledge]

convince what

what are you even going on about

[dry flame]

if you dont enjoy it, play something else, idk

[left ledge]

yes thats the point

ive been playing this spec for many years

im just pointing out how dull it feels right now

[plush roost]

I mean its a valid crashout, the class u enjoy the most being so dumbed down is pretty lame

[vale pine]

well yes

[north garnet]

This is so real 😭

[vale pine]

but a lot of the "dull" feeling is just a lack of flexibility

[dry flame]

I'm a class player, not a spec one, so I'm kinda used to specs going through diferent cycles

[warm marlin]

I might ask my guild to swap to multispec but finding a rogue is hard

[brisk onyx]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Essential:

• ArcUI / BetterCDM - Enhanced Cooldown Manager.
• WangBar / SensaiBar - Resource bar (when using blizzard CDM)
• MSUF / UUF - Unit frame mods.
• Platynator - Nameplate Addon.
  Quality of Life:
• Buff Reminders - Food/Flask/Poison Reminder.
• WilduTools - QOL enhancements.
• Mute Cold Blood sound
• **The first dance tracker

[vale pine]

you have one answer to a question

not multiple

which means, its easy to understand

but you also... can't change much

[plush roost]

? Just dont play one

[left ledge]

yeah

[plush roost]

Smile

[left ledge]

i feel like thats what drew me to sub

[vale pine]

e.g. looking at nimble rework

[left ledge]

and its gone now

[vale pine]

when it came out

we had a big discussion

why people are not satisfied with it

[warm marlin]

Real

[vale pine]

because "nothing changes"

but turns out, things did indeed change

[left ledge]

wait are you talking about

OG nimble

or nimble right now

[vale pine]

nimble pre midnight vs. midnight

the diffrence was

[plush roost]

I think 85% nimble in this current form was hella lit btw

They just

Nerfed it to 50% worse than pre rework

[vale pine]

nimble and bp initially ended up tuned high

[plush roost]

Lmfso

[warm marlin]

It’s so ass that you are reliant on coup being up to cleave properly

[vale pine]

so you kept a lot of the cleave damage

while still keeping somewhat of the prio

and had good aoe

[warm marlin]

If you just proc poorly between dances you won’t have coup up

[vale pine]

now with tuning

[warm marlin]

Gg

[vale pine]

which was the initial concern

things changes

now subtlety is suddenly bad in cleave

even tho aoe is fine

and prio damage is not that insane/good anymore

[plush roost]

Bros why cant we just make goremaws have 3 full cleave eviserates

[warm marlin]

(now if we didn’t have to dance exactly on cd and could hold it with sectec charges all of a sudden 85% nimble pure coup is cool )

[vale pine]

the problem comes from generalizing the spell

because you had tuning knops before

you could tune nimble and bp seperately

to design just how much cleave/aoe the spec does

while now, cleave + aoe are the same knop (more or less)

buffing BP directly buffs aoe

[dry flame]

Zul

[keen dome]

Cleavemaw

[vale pine]

haha

[keen dome]

Gorecleave

[vale pine]

i mean deahstalker has good prio

so its not all bad

my point is simply to highlight how simplifying the design space

makes it harder to do fine tuning

[sick epoch]

What tunning is coming now? Did not see anything

12.0.5?

[vale pine]

well

this patch is tuned

the current status is the "tuned" version

[sick epoch]

Oh okok gotcha

[vagrant fulcrum]

[vale pine]

4 weeks of continues tuning means most specs should be close to where blizz wants them to

and the new patch will come with some changes

(and maybe more tuning after)

[warm marlin]

doubt

[lucid jackal]

That's valid

[vale pine]

i actually wonder

why you keep asking this question

do you personally like bp + storm?

because if there is a diffrent incentive, it might be better to ask more specific

[lucid jackal]

Because I'm interested in ppl's perspective

[astral axle]

ForeverCurious?

[fiery fog]

curiousguy

[north garnet]

It might not be the moment but i do like how sub is even now

[vale pine]

interessting

[vale pine]

thats perfectly fine, i think its a goo baseline, but needs work

[glass jackal]

I’d like to see vigor removed and 2/2 vigor becoming the baseline energy and regen

[vale pine]

neverless, my point remains. I think its easier to ask specifically rather than

"why do you not like storm + bp"
"but like stike + evi"

maybe its lost in translation

[graceful osprey]

It’s over, let the dooming commence

[vagrant fulcrum]

I mean this is gonna sound dumb, but genuinely one is more rogue like

Mechanically there’s no big difference, both are just builder spender

[lilac stag]

So just toss in a strike during dance for more prio dmg and Danse stack

[vale pine]

the thing is

we use evis

due to how our capstones are designed

[lilac stag]

and delete the BP coup macro

[vale pine]

well, the macro has its problems

[lilac stag]

But go on with how boring your spec is

[vale pine]

mainly, you need to be very aware of melee range

because its easy to stand there

"why can't i finish"

standing outside of melee range with coup

[vagrant fulcrum]

Honestly better that happens than you stay outside of melee spamming bp

[fallow glade]

did coup have a charge mechanic on it first or am i tripping

[vagrant fulcrum]

It’s getting you into melee atleast

[vagrant fulcrum]

It did

[vale pine]

it is more punishing

a player might be in an aoe pull

so he possibly loses 2 or even 3 globals

before he gets back in melee

[lilac stag]

My spec is boring in aoe. proceeds to remove an additional key press / skill check with a macro

[vale pine]

also due to how targeting works

if a mob jumps away

you might need to target swap before being able to use coup

[vagrant fulcrum]

Let’s not twist it, sub is boring in general rn, functional but boring

[lilac stag]

what isn’t boring in aoe?

[vagrant fulcrum]

You being genuine?

[vale pine]

i am honest

[lilac stag]

What spec is actually fun that isn’t overtuned

[left ledge]

i enjoy devourer aoe more than sub

[vale pine]

i did like subtlety in tww/df

[lilac stag]

Why?

[left ledge]

uhdk isnt bad

[vagrant fulcrum]

This build isn’t played right now but the wfb focused survival build in aoe where boomstick resets the bombs and vice versa

[left ledge]

arms isnt bad

[vale pine]

you had more nuances

[vagrant fulcrum]

Insanely fun build to play, not great

[vale pine]

with nimble, dance cdr, etc

your cooldown use was not as stiff/strict

[left ledge]

the nimble gut was so unnecessary

[vale pine]

and neither was your ability use

you also had talents like danse

[lilac stag]

Tell me Devourer is fun if current tuning isn’t where it’s at.

[vale pine]

which now kinda suck in aoe

[vagrant fulcrum]

If nimble stayed after precise cuts got removed it would be peak cinema that sub is better at 2-3t than outlaw by a lot

[left ledge]

i dont need the damage numbers

i press things

have incentive to move around

[lilac stag]

Ok

[left ledge]

have something to track

can make a choice on whether to use an ability or not

[vagrant fulcrum]

Not played it but people speak about the skullcap

[left ledge]

its extremely simple

but with sub you dont do anything other than spam

it literally does not matter what is going on

"hold coup for next pack"

doesnt matter

"hold dance for next pack"

doesnt matter

"hold" doesnt matter

nothing you do on sub actually matters as long as you just press the buttons

[lilac stag]

then just don’t play rogue. as good as any time to stop.

[left ledge]

again thats such a stupid thing to say

[lilac stag]

it’s not

[left ledge]

was already discussed beforehand

[lilac stag]

If it’s not fun. Don’t play it

[vagrant fulcrum]

Eh I already demoted it to alt for the first time in years

[lilac stag]

Quite simple.

[left ledge]

yeah i literally already said i wouldnt be

and have swapped to assa

[vagrant fulcrum]

When I am on rogue I play sin and OL too

[left ledge]

like not even 20 mins maybe

that this exact thing was discussed

[vagrant fulcrum]

I think sub can be fun in shorter bursts

[left ledge]

i think this is just DF sub but worse

[vagrant fulcrum]

Blades feels more real

[left ledge]

and a rework is inevitable or this spec stays a pain to play

[vagrant fulcrum]

But ye

[left ledge]

blades feels worse

[vagrant fulcrum]

Shadowdust would go a long ways

[left ledge]

oh you mean

yeah yeah

[vagrant fulcrum]

We saying s1-2 or s3 df sub

[fiery summit]

Bring back tomb, 26 action opener DFA sub

[left ledge]

but i mean the blades nerf was also just a ???

ye

no i know what you mean

i was talking about s1-s2

[vagrant fulcrum]

Blades back then was so fake

[left ledge]

but current blades is a nerfed version of s3 df blades

[vagrant fulcrum]

And gloomblade did all ur dps xd

[left ledge]

also ill say this again

i said this before midnight was out

i didnt mind flag!!!!!!

but bloat button i guess!

couldve made it a 1 min

[vagrant fulcrum]

Functionally flag doesn’t do anything special without dust tbf

[left ledge]

or 30 sec

or change it

[vagrant fulcrum]

Its usage is just static before blades

[lilac stag]

What cognitive load did flag add that would add to current subs gameplay issues you have?

[fiery summit]

Legion sub after the rework, yall know that’s what you really want

Actual funnel

[vagrant fulcrum]

The wouldn’t dare

[left ledge]

it was a ramp

[fiery summit]

We can dream

[vagrant fulcrum]

This expac has homogenised the dps roster

[left ledge]

meaning often you would want the latter end of it to line up with where the bulk of your damage was gonna be at

you wanted to stack it quickly

[vagrant fulcrum]

I see and agree with the skill check, but this goes against Blizz’ goals for flexible burst

[left ledge]

and it was often not easy to stack that quickly

it was only easy with double coup

[lilac stag]

and none of your gameplay changed to accomplish this. You just hit on cd

[left ledge]

no you didnt

[vagrant fulcrum]

Shit like flag / uncapped flawless form reinforces very strict cd execution

[left ledge]

lmao

there we go

buzzer on that

[lilac stag]

pray for coup

[vagrant fulcrum]

And if you don’t play it that way you end up playing a wack spec

[left ledge]

yeah but instead of like

removing a button that has potentially fun gameplay

MAYBE EXPERIMENT

IDK

but ofc they wouldnt

our apex is literally just an old talent

lmao

instead of doing anything with our aoe cc

they just took it away

realized they fucked up

and are giving it back in .5

[lilac stag]

This has been the sub rogue dev cycle since legion. Does any of this surprise you?

[left ledge]

no it hasnt