subtlety

[tribal blade]

place pot, racial, trinkets on that bar and hide the rest of the buttons

it doesn't look the best but it's something

i've been on this kick of trying to make default UI work the best i can make it

[bitter halo]

Cooldown Manager Centred

[pallid jackal]

Hey guys, I've FINALLY got an addon to track the buffs not done by Blizzard (Tempered potion, Araz's ritual). Would anyone know how to track those or how to find the IDs of the specific buffs instead of the item?

The addon is Enhance QOL btw

[torn tide]

yoooo noice

[pallid jackal]

Oh wait, I see the above conversation is similar. Would enhance cooldown tracker be better?

[vale pine]

you can download idtip the addon adds the id's of things to their tooltip

[swift tinsel]

Arc can track items and trinkets as well

Can drag and drop the item itself or use spellID

[pallid jackal]

Really?

[swift tinsel]

Yeah

Under Arc Auras

[pallid jackal]

What is arc?

[swift tinsel]

It creates an icon you can place into your grids

Arc UI

[pallid jackal]

That would be great

[vale pine]

arc ui and better cooldown manager both can track trinkets/items

[pallid jackal]

And if you get the id of the sitem (say Araz trinket) you get the trinket itself and not the spellid

[vale pine]

tho idk how well either works

[swift tinsel]

I was messing with Arc last night and it’s pretty good for it

[vale pine]

idtip is an addon, you would install it then use the trinket and get the buff id

[swift tinsel]

The icons inherit whatever appearance settings each grid (buff, essential cooldown, utility, etc) that you place them in which is nice

[pallid jackal]

Aha okay! Thank you fuu, you are so helpful

[vale pine]

but idk if you can track the buff

[swift tinsel]

Ye idtip is great

[vale pine]

or just the trinket

[pallid jackal]

I am trying arc now

[vale pine]

i tested trinket stuff when the patch came out

and it was kinda broken in all addons i tested

maybe its stable now

one of the concerns i have with midnight (pre patch too) is how unstable some api's seem

[swift tinsel]

Arc has gotten notably better which is good bc it was fairly obtuse early on

[pallid jackal]

This should be way easier than it is now

WA was kind of good in that aspect

[swift tinsel]

Had a guild mate crashout last night while setting his stuff up lol

[pallid jackal]

Thank god we have such a great community ❤️

Yeah I have those multiple times a day

My guild is kinda shit so they are not of any help atm, moving to a better guild soon

[swift tinsel]

Bc he had to jump from addon to addon menu to configure everything instead of just all in WA

[pallid jackal]

probably

yea I figure

[hazy breach]

Ye its gonna be great next raid when you have to go a download a list of addons instead of a WA package

"Better fractillus positioning"
"Dimmy soak helper"
"Salladbar ghost indicator"
"Araz add spawn assistance"

[pallid jackal]

Trying Arc now

yeah or they should design it well

so it is customizable and we can track basic things such as item buffs

and make it so that we can choose what to track as well, kind of like WA

Because now I downloaded on of these addons and now I've got an extra resource bar I don't yet know how to get rid of.. lol

I am just using enhanced cooldown manager like charrend send with the ID tip addon, or maybe the the QOL addon, my UI just broke and my abilities are scattered across the screen

oh wow it's fixed now

now on to tracking stuff like Tempered potion again

I am actually sitting here with a pen writing down spellids lol

What about ticking tack of terror? How would I track that debuff on the enemy or does anyone know how to do this? Input hugely appreciated.

@fuu I've got the spellid now, but how would I track the buff it gives? To be able to put it in the middle of the screen.

Sorry for the questions for now, later I can help others

[vale pine]

i think you can't track the buff

so just the cooldown of the trinket

[pallid jackal]

Really? Okay great to have some confirmation on it though.

[hazy breach]

Should also consider if you actually need to track things

[pallid jackal]

Would they be adding this in midnight? It always helped me in performance

[hazy breach]

Like what purpose does showing the debuff from ticking serve

[alpine wraith]

i actually didnt check but does ticking sack still explode at 1 stack if it decays

you used to be able to game it that way and make it do way more dmg in m+

[pallid jackal]

It can help with target switching for example.\

I guess I am just waiting till Midnight then with all these optimisations, unless there is a way to track the buff

[hazy breach]

How

[pallid jackal]

Say you want one add dead

[hazy breach]

Then you attack that add

Tracking the trinket provides no benefit

[pallid jackal]

this is all up for discussion but I've found that tracking more stuff can make for more optimisations, saya tracking tempered potion so you get one more eviscerate in with that buff

I haven't come across this specific trinket before

Maybe it will though that's the thing

[hazy breach]

I've found the complete opposite

People track 1000 things

When none of them matter

Why waste mentalspace and screen space on something that never impacts your decisions

[pallid jackal]

well I've found that it does impact mine

but not sure what the people you know track them that is irrelevant

[left ledge]

Tracking pot is kinda useless ngl

You should be playing for uptime and doing the rotation properly

You don’t throw a two point evis out just because your pot is at 1 second

[pallid jackal]

omg my UI is finally good I think ❤️

Thanks all

[pallid jackal]

Well think about it yourself

There are moments where it's good

[pallid jackal]

You can do both

[left ledge]

I can’t think of a single time in raid or m+ where I looked at my pot duration

[pallid jackal]

I find it also helps me get the rotation down faster knowing I'm still inside that buff, maybe throwing an extra cd in there since I know it will be at max value

It can also help in progression when you want a specific add down and your guild is struggling on it

[slate marlin]

i dont get your point either

[left ledge]

Not sure how that has anything to do with looking at a pot duration

If you need help killing the add you just go hit the add?

Also you really shouldn’t be altering your rotation because of pot

Pot is meant to just be a steroid during your cds

[slate marlin]

^

[iron spear]

what do you guys use now for the functions of weakaura?

[left ledge]

Personally I’m just using base cd manager, though afaik it still can’t show trinkets which is annoying

[alpine wraith]

maybe they are chasing the biggest evis

so they need to know every proc

and try to gamble counting the windows

[left ledge]

I mean sure if you’re goofing around for something

[alpine wraith]

no you dont understand they are in a time trial

if they dont get it they get punished

[left ledge]

[iron spear]

base cd manager of the no-addon-ui? Found it. all good

[hazy breach]

Well my point is that there arent for most of the buffs we have

[spiral bloom]

"Better cd manager" can do everything you asked

[iron spear]

Did you guys did any advanced editing of the CD-Manager or just used the default?

[cursive oar]

good or bad news for Sub in next classes change？

[hazy breach]

Damage down, but other people damage down even more, so overall kinda positive

[spiral bloom]

The base cd manager has borderline 0 configuration

You can just play a sound or glow when something is ready or active

[kind edge]

i have my doubts about this. in a m+ scenario, that 2% from PE will be there 95% of the dungeon, WS its much better in ST but not all bosses are pure ST. Anyway, you can be right too, i didnt tested so im just wondering.

[hazy breach]

WS is better in aoe too

[kind edge]

wow, im confused

[alpine wraith]

getting less apex is quite bad overall yea

[kind edge]

i gotta admit that im lost now

[hazy breach]

Thats why i said 15% more combo points, in ST its closer to 20-22%

[alpine wraith]

eleem is basically telling you even in aoe it being worse it is still ahead

[pallid jackal]

Like that's how I play I track everything and it works for me

ideally I'd track weapon enchants as well but I guess we can't atm?

[astral axle]

track weapon enchants?

[slate marlin]

I just have a question about that, do you play around your enchants? Like, do you hold your cds until they proc?

[astral axle]

No?

[hazy breach]

Whats confusing?

[alpine wraith]

i used to track wep enchants to know when they popped and see if i was likely to get them again back when icd was a thing

nowadays we have this bullshit rrpm or hasted rppm

[slate marlin]

Im asking him, i dont do it

[pallid jackal]

Like you used to do that with wep enchants sometimes

[slate marlin]

Not now

Thats for sure

[pallid jackal]

I don't see why that would've changed

[pallid jackal]

Do you mean that you can play a sound or glow when something is active?

or like no?

[spiral bloom]

You can

[astral axle]

if you go into buffs in the in-game CDManager you can set that up

pretty limited functionality

but it lets you do it

wont let you do it for things like weapon enchants but spec/class stuff it does

[pallid jackal]

Okay whatever I'll wait till midnight I think

for min/maxing my UI

[pallid jackal]

I don't see it in the buffs panel yet though?

But I think I'm good regardless

[slate marlin]

Bc its random procs, you may delay your cds for a while

[pallid jackal]

By the way, in terms of tracking, it can be good to have all of it tracked. One example I can think of now is expending energy when you've got more buffs up, sometimes you want to pool

[slate marlin]

So you potentialy lose cd uses

[pallid jackal]

Yeah the above is an example of why you would want to do that

[slate marlin]

But energy is infinite during shadow dance

[pallid jackal]

but it's like a tiny benefit or maybe none at all, depending on the player. Idk, personal preferences surely come into it 😄

[hazy breach]

It doesnt

[kind edge]

im trying to figure it out, where atack speed increase can be linked with AOE damage increase. i know basic atacks are linked with nimble flurry and thats a plus, but compared with 10% more crit damage bonus on a big pack like we are used to do on m+ feels much more worthy on theory. there is anything besides nimble flurry that im missing? its shadow techniques and then shadow techniques translated to finishers damage?

[slate marlin]

Im sorry but no, theres very few buffs that need to be tracked

[hazy breach]

10% crit damage takes your crits from 200% damage to 210%, which is a 5% damage increase. But you odnt have 100% crit, 40% is more reasonable, which means its ~2% damage

[slate marlin]

You can track whatever you want ofc, but they wont affect your rotation

[hazy breach]

And more attack speed means more apex clones, you get roughly 2 extra apex clone per minute with warning signs compared to PE

(this is full aoe sims btw)

[neon frigate]

Hey guys, is it me or did sub rogue became pretty weak in pre midnight? Im lvl 169 btw and play m+

[alpine wraith]

yea we are dog

[hazy breach]

The extra clones just outweigh the 2% damage from PE

[kind edge]

ok starts to make sense now 🙂

[alpine wraith]

remember to get a leash so they can walk you through the dungeon

just tell them the important thing is the friends we made a long the way

before they block you

[hazy breach]

The fact that its also way better in ST is just the cherry on top

[kind edge]

ok hands down, thanks for the explanation @hazy breach ❤️

[astral axle]

Clones good :]

except when they aren't

:[

[alpine wraith]

one day they will work fully with sec tech

then we eating good

[astral axle]

I'd be such a happy weeb

[alpine wraith]

tbh they actually fixed some things i expected to remain for a whie

like the random unseen on shuriken

[hazy breach]

Well back in the day enchants and trinkets had ICDs (aka internal cooldowns) so they would reliably proc at certain times, in which case it makes perfect sense to wait for them to proc. These days however they are completely random, so if youre sitting there holding dance+sectech for a weapon enchant proc, a substantial amount of the time its just not gonna proc for 20+ seconds, at which point you couldve just sent a dance and have it back by now

In which case you are just overcomplicating it for yourself and losing damage, when you could instead just press buttons

[cursive vapor]

someone post that graph again

[astral axle]

?

[torn tide]

lmfaoo

[cursive vapor]

almost lol

[astral axle]

I couldnt find the one that says "i push buttons"

Eleem I have a tricky one for you, how many holes are in a straw

[naive hemlock]

yes

[vale pine]

def. "yes"

[torn tide]

yes

[alpine wraith]

forgot the maybe

[slate marlin]

well, 1

no?

[vale pine]

its a trick question, there are multiple correct answers

[naive hemlock]

no

the correct answer is 42

[astral axle]

If I pinch one side of the straw and liquid or whatever goes in the other side

would that other side still not be a hole?

[slate marlin]

its 1 entire hole. Its like a tunnel through a mountain, it has 2 ends, 1 hole

if i block one of the entrance its still 1 hole

[naive hemlock]

the voices

[astral axle]

[slate marlin]

maybe im missing the point

or the joke

[naive hemlock]

someone ask some ai

[alpine wraith]

you need to ascend

[naive hemlock]

to the gods

[slate marlin]

ascending is for shamans

am i a shaman?

no

[naive hemlock]

you need to use imp stealth

you stealth so hard you cant get out of it

[slate marlin]

no

i like my explanation of why its 1 hol

hole

i did a good job im proud of myself

[naive hemlock]

take this

you need it

[slate marlin]

i dont think you want to know what i would do with a spare hand

[naive hemlock]

pick your nose

[slate marlin]

sure

you go ahead and think that

[neon frigate]

Is sub rogue weak at the moment in m+? I used to be top in dmg but now it is hard to be 1st in dps (lvl 169)

[austere spear]

8% overall nerf in last tuning + no apex sub kinda in a rough spot rn

[dense geode]

rogue is one of those classes that has game altering apex talents

[silent condor]

Hey, is playing with a dagger in mh and my outlaw sword in offhand fine or do I want 2 daggers?

[naive hemlock]

you do need 2 daggers

[keen dome]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[silent condor]

No normalized ? 😩

[naive hemlock]

well you can use the new outfit feature to mog daggers to swords

so there you go

[silent condor]

Can I transmog DPS Meter then too ? 😂

[naive hemlock]

you can

reroll to mage and it will be moged

[silent condor]

Yeah thought the same

[naive hemlock]

[silent condor]

Ok, so get a dagger.

Thanks for helping me out

[sinful zephyr]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[formal pollen]

Hello, all. Thinking of trying Rouge for the first time and subtley sounds good as I love the idea of being invis a lot. Is deathstalker or trickster easier to play?

[dense geode]

trickster

[formal pollen]

gah, is subtley the hardest rouge spec to play?

[sullen hare]

Nope

It's probably the easiest now

Very very little to juggle these days

Deathstalker is probably gonna have some stupid bullshit workarounds and optimizations to hit the same numbers as trickster so just go trickster and macro coup to BP so you don't have to even think about it

[river steppe]

bp?

[vale pine]

yes

you can macro bp and coup

bp = black powder

[river steppe]

crazy

[formal pollen]

are trickster and deathstalker pretty much the same in terms of difficulty for a new rouge player?

[sullen hare]

Trickster has less bullshitty optimizations

[vale pine]

yes

[formal pollen]

thanks... guess I'll just go Trickster

[vale pine]

trickster has the benefit of maybe slightly easier aoe with this

[barren plume]

why is blizz forcing sin on rogue players?

[vale pine]

tuning is always wild

[alpine void]

!sims

[wicked jolt]

Simulations:
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[alpine void]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[barren plume]

where rogue at currently on average dps compared to others for aoe and ST? Somewhere in the middle would be my guess but i suck with maths, im more a hit button feel good or bad kinda guy. I need you mathletes to fill me in on the whys behind my good or bad feelings

[sullen hare]

It's prepatch. Nothing matters

I don't think anyone in the sub channel plays this spec because it appears in rwf or tops content creator tier lists, we just do it for the love of the game. Sometimes we get good parses along the way

[vale pine]

statistics are contextual

the last 2 figths are ideal for subtlety

[tepid trellis]

i just play w/e is needed of me on prog

[vale pine]

yet it received 2 nerfs now, the last round under the umbrella of pre ptatch tuning

[tepid trellis]

if thats sub, GREAT!
if its assa, Okay!
if its outlaw, (its not)

[vale pine]

which simply means the gameplay team looks at diffrent metrics

i haven't figured out what metric it is they tune around after multiple xpacs

[barren plume]

now now now we all know the gameplay team focuses on mage specs and then patch works the rest of us

[alpine wraith]

they are too busy making cinematic trailers for devourer dh

so people buy the expac

before nerfing them by 60% first week

[vale pine]

i mean

not saying anything

but the new dh spec def. is in a terrible spot damage wise going from the last 2 bosses

good that they nerf subtlety

would be tragic else

[barren plume]

dont show me logically sound arguments fuu let me live in my hateful blizz dev fantasy

but also thank you

[formal pollen]

I'm showing Coup as a passive skill. Do you still macro it?

[vale pine]

coup is not a passive skill

its a transformation of evis

you get when you hit 4 stacks of unseen blades

[formal pollen]

so what spell am i macroing with bp?

[vale pine]

coup de grace

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[vale pine]

this

[formal pollen]

So that macro just replaces BP on my spell bar?

sorry for the dumb ?s, still learning

[sudden quarry]

it uses the proc if you have one

otherwise black powder

[vale pine]

yes

you just replace BP

and can ignore the trickster hero talent in aoe then as it plays it automatically

[formal pollen]

thanks again

[flat sun]

Fuu Do we need to rotate players to actively utilize the dance macabre talent?

[alpine wraith]

dont rotate players

[vale pine]

you don't play around danse macabre

you just play as usual

[sudden quarry]

Okay lads i need your help. My officers want feedback for the state of our classes going into the new tier. Ngl, i have no clue if we are fine right now xD I don't care which spec, but is any of our specs tuned good right now?

[sullen hare]

Rogue is still a vibe pick

[flat sun]

I don't think it's good right now.

[sullen hare]

We still have atrophic poison which is a raid buff that exists

All the fotm rerollers are gonna be vodh

[flat sun]

It's too early to say anything right now, of course there will be more changes.

[alpine wraith]

rogue will be the best atrophic poison applier

runing is whatever sub seemed quite decent

[vale pine]

no class will be tuned to be absolutely terrible

[astral axle]

Just lie and say rogue will be OP

[sudden quarry]

yikes

[alpine wraith]

actually yea

[astral axle]

and if they call you on it, say that you are a rogue and they were foolish to believe you

[vale pine]

so w/e you can play rogue

[alpine wraith]

nah maybe i need to gaslight more

time to make a 2h video why you need to play rogue trust trust fr fr

[sullen hare]

Tell your officers that if sub rogue isn't top of the meters suicide is still an option

[alpine wraith]

and it is just me surviving with 10% hp

and everyone else dying

on random shit

like on nexus king

[astral axle]

ClaudeGPT make me a 2h video explaining how rogue is OP in midnight

[sudden quarry]

followed by a 2h whispyr crashout video?

[alpine wraith]

i would need to use a local model

[astral axle]

And more importantly, how I can be the only rogue on the roster and we don't need others

[sullen hare]

@grok is this true??????

[astral axle]

grok show me the best atrophic poison applier...... yes good ok

now grok show me the best atrophic apoison applier in a bikini

[sullen hare]

That's still too much clothing @grok, it's a European beach

[sudden quarry]

well at least I am indeed the only rogue aka poison applier

[sullen hare]

I once tricked an LLM into making almost naked people by using the phrase clothing-optional grocery store

[alpine wraith]

yea but maybe they really want to be in a bikini

[left shale]

i mean, devourer got a 4% slap on the wrist 🙂

[alpine wraith]

think they are already kinda tuning for apex in mind

maybe they saw us being silly with apex and decided to tune nimble a bit

as we were kinda always getting apex coups

[vale pine]

i wonder what metrics they use for tuning

[alpine wraith]

we all do

[tender dust]

No metrics

[north garnet]

Finally at peace

[sour horizon]

Magic 8 ball tuning

[plush roost]

We wouldnt be so silly if they fixed the bugs instead xd

[graceful osprey]

Is it over?

[vale pine]

what addon is that

[plush roost]

Sure! I can make a 2hr video explaining how rogue is OP in midnight.

"Hey gang, Museless here to bring you another hit video! Today we're talking about rogue is OP in midnight. First of all rogue is OP in midnight because of its ability to go stealth, many stealth abilities are attatched to rogue and are a big source of contention in the raiding and player vs player exeperience. Fortunately we are the rogue that is OP in midnight so we can use our stealth abilities to apply improved garrote and Premeditation. Further Subtlety rogue is a specialization that can..."

[north garnet]

Arc ui, sensei and bar tender

[vale pine]

ah its arcui

thanks

[alpine wraith]

ROGUE IS A MELEE DAMAGE DEALER THAT DOES DAMAGE IN MELEE

and its streanght is dealing damage in melee range

[limpid sage]

Grok analysis

[alpine wraith]

with a slew of abilites that deal damage in melee range

best thing is we can cheap shot and kidney and still get dmg

sub is the best spec because of that

instead of storming or striking you slam some cheapshots

big D

[subtle jay]

yo

what's the best race for midnight

horde racce to be exact

[north garnet]

The coolest one

female tauren

[subtle jay]

naaah fuck taurens

but like for real

what's best one

[north garnet]

i guess mag har orc

[subtle jay]

idc if it's even 1% increase

[subtle jay]

maghars are still better than default orcs despite the stat squishing?

o:

[uneven scarab]

Default orc better prob

[subtle jay]

thx lads

[north garnet]

I have no idea haha, i just took a guess based on tww

[ripe flame]

I believe it will change when we are 90 so I wouldn't decide anything rn

[subtle jay]

im jerkign off to numbers so ever slightly difference matter to me

[swift tinsel]

The funny thing is this 100% reads like a Mafic forum post

[void ocean]

omg is sub deadge

what is this nerf

[swift tinsel]

Nah we’re fine

[sleek thunder]

I’m thinking about Dark Brew, what shadow damage are we actually doing, only during shadow blades?

[uneven scarab]

Secret Tech, Blades, Clones, Shadowed finishers, black powder

Probably more im missing

[sleek thunder]

Stech initial doing phys?

Only the clones do shadow ye?

[uneven scarab]

The initial hit is phys the clones are shadow

[sleek thunder]

Hmm

What if we go DS and Dark brew

[uneven scarab]

Iirc dark brew wasnt great but thats more of an Eleem question, im sure he tested it

Ds sucks

Not worth

[sleek thunder]

Idk

[alpine wraith]

dark brew was not horrible

just not better than other things

[sleek thunder]

Crit dmg alone is pretty big

[uneven scarab]

Yeah i assume db is okay, but we are kinda starved for points

gotta take whats best

[covert imp]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[oblique isle]

I have a quick question: during Shadow Dance, do we still use Backstab first, or do we go directly into Shuriken Storm as the first ability?

[tepid trellis]

no backstabbing

its either
dance+strike
dance+storm
dance+sectech

one of those 3 depending on AoE or single target or hero talents

[oblique isle]

i'm playing stalker st

while in raid

[dense geode]

why no bs

[vale pine]

backstab is not our friend anymore

dropped out of the group of cool kids

[dense geode]

[bleak night]

[dense geode]

its that bad?

[vale pine]

yes

[dense geode]

hmm ok

[vale pine]

don't use backstab in dance

the damage is not good enough

[dry plank]

Bp is physical only shadowed portion of it is shadow but you already mentioned it

[oblique isle]

during the Shadow Blades window, after using the first Secret Technique with shadow dance , are we wait for the second one to come back before using second Shadow Dance?

[hazy breach]

Bs isn't horrible, just worse than storm

[trail ledge]

Its normal if i got Energy probleme in fight ?

[lucid jackal]

Outside of dance yeah

[spring basin]

Is it just me or does sub nerfs feel worse than listed

I feel like I lost a TON of damage

[lucid jackal]

Me personally, I've never been able to feel an aura Nerf lol

Or aura buff

[fallow nimbus]

I felt it yesterday vs last week

Probably noone will beat my 84k dps at nexusking in normal now

[spring basin]

Same, maybe they nerfed one of my trinkets or something

I'd have to check logs, but I swear I did like 38k on a patchwork boss last week, and did 27k this week

Not that it really matters but I wondered if something was bugged

[bleak night]

maybe you just fell off

got old since last week

unlucky

[burnt tide]

a bit harsh Bel

[bleak night]

its ok im already on the floor so i dont have to worry about falling

[burnt tide]

xdd

[keen dome]

What if the floor gives way

[bleak night]

https://klipy.com/gifs/tom-and-jerry-falling

[spring basin]

It's joever for me, I knew turning 30 would catch up to me

[west mist]

Super lame question but i'm bored trying to get all the mage towers done and on sub's when you get trapped in the ice prison i actually don't understand how to break out lol spamming shuriken storm and black powder takes like 5 or 6 seconds and it just killsge me

is there an easier way to break it (idk this spec at all)

[alpine void]

shadowstep

u can target the outside shard and step to it

[west mist]

awesome ty

[alpine void]

pretty sure you can put the boss towards the cross section of the beams and step to boss too

[warm forum]

is there any way to show reminder to apply poisons?

[lean sigil]

does a deathstalker apply mark in aoe m+? or just storm/powder?

[vale pine]

you apply it

[lean sigil]

just on opener? guide seems strange

[uneven skiff]

I use https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/clickable-raid-buffs

[lean sigil]

method guide got one in opener rest sais storm on 2 targets, and only way to get mark is shadowstrike?

[warm forum]

thank you

[torn ore]

hey , how i know if this procs ? what i should track i mean

[vale pine]

unseen blades stacks

you don't need to track it tho

[broken seal]

I just launched the game and before I leave, I saw the apex talents on my talent tree. Can we do something with them now or did Blizzard just add the apex but we must wait the expansion to use them

[kind edge]

i did a trackable bar, that 2 brown bars, when it reach 4 it turns green and means u can coup

since im not using the macro

[tacit zealot]

hey guys, never played sub, is it energy starved after rework, can somebody compare it to assa

[lucid jackal]

You are outlaw in Cd's and sin outside of Cd's

[glacial hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tacit zealot]

what an interesting answer! like it let me think about it for a moment 😄

1.5 minute cds? or mini cds

[tepid trellis]

both

strong during mini cds, regular dances

very bursty during 90sec cds

out of dance, wet noodle slapper

[tacit zealot]

I'm thinking in my case not sure is it best of both worlds, or worst of both worlds xD

[lean sigil]

can anyone explain aoe as deathstalker?

[tacit zealot]

but I like having some curve of dps and big cds, thats worst part of outlaw

[tepid trellis]

storm+bp until Darkest night then Evis over BP

then back to storm + bp

[lean sigil]

but mark just stay on 3?

[tacit zealot]

and what is current dmg profile if I understood right, great aoe on beta , poor st?

[glacial hinge]

do we have any St sims from beta? just for a number grasp?

[tepid trellis]

you bp until you get Darkest night from consuming 3 marks, Use evis as next finisher then back to bp spam

[lean sigil]

and trickster

[tepid trellis]

BP until coup is ready

then Evis xD

[lean sigil]

seems more chill

[tepid trellis]

its pseudo the same stuff

just not target locked mark

like DS

[lucid jackal]

Talking solely about like, moment to moment gameplay not so much profile

Blades is big cd, dance is micro cd

U do big burst in blades and medium burst in dance

[tacit zealot]

I was looking more into gameplay, fast / slow

Do we need to pool, are we energy starved so we wait 2 seconds every 2 seconds

My ADHD can't stand waiting for something to press and looking at energy bar

I could live with it probably, if its only without any cds, but atleast in dance it would be cool to spam abilities

[tepid trellis]

u spam in dance

and go a bit dry out of dance

[kind edge]

just dont dance right away if u dont have energy to send sectech right away. is the only "pooling", if we can call that "pooling", that im doing

[lucid jackal]

If by gameplay feel then exactly as I said

U are outlaw in dance, and sin outside of dance

U have effectively unlimited energy in dance, and no energy outside

[idle aurora]

whats the macro to coup vs blackpowder

if coup is up

[bitter halo]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[idle aurora]

ty homie

[lilac stag]

So you won’t be really waiting all that much. I think subs apm is right around 61 and Outlaw is about 67 now.

Redone version of sub reminds me of fury warrior pacing, but with burst damage. Our dmg in dance is significant. Our 90 second cds are still good, but not as strong as say s3 since the trinkets aren’t nearly as good and added boost of flag is gone.

[torn ore]

can u share the macro please

nvm found it ty

[keen plaza]

Is the CDG+BP macro just so you can keep smashing one finisher button in aoe? Instead of pressing your normal CDG bind when it's up?

Wild

[tribal blade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7HL_ts1XhE&t=4s

poor arms warrs

i dunno what they did to the devs

the arms warr in my guild is really good, he's always topping dps and before these nerfs he was on the bottom of our raid

so seeing this is so confusing

[lilac stag]

Arms was god awful last season (gameplay and tuning). They kinda went for this 2 target cleave specialist and it’s a gdamn travesty. I swear they gave a hate boner for arms.

[tribal blade]

i thought sub has been historically hated by the devs, but this is a new level

[lilac stag]

At times I think they just hate 90 second specs, then I think it’s just sub & arms hate.

would really love to know what those dev conversations are like on slack or in meetings

[tribal blade]

yeah would be cool to get a glimpse of how they operate

[twin mortar]

So pls whats the best ST build now ? Please

[lilac stag]

Just play trickster in everything

[odd sandal]

How many dances should we be getting from one Shadow blades to the next?

[tepid trellis]

2

sometimes 3 depending on timings

[odd sandal]

And we're holding both if inside 10s from blades coming back up correct?

[tepid trellis]

always make sure to be able to 2x dance blades

[tropic pier]

yeah i feel bad for warriors arms was already bad and its catching more strays

[chilly pecan]

anyone know why my game crashes if i make a shadowmeld stealth macro?

[spiral bloom]

Lol

[astral axle]

Bro and it

Doesn’t even do two target cleave

Very well at all

[dense stream]

are those tunning implemented ?

anywhere

[empty plume]

tuesday

[astral axle]

the reason sub and arms players get along

is we're similarly abused by blizZard

✌️ 🏄‍♂️ 🏄‍♀️

[torn tide]

oh cmon sub isnt that abused

[sour horizon]

I mean, were kinda just forgotten about, Arms gets shit on randomly for ????

[hard trellis]

another nerf to an already dead sub spec is absolute cinema

[astral axle]

im being a little dramatic

sub is way better off than arms like... it isnt even close lol

[short radish]

it's a few arms length better

[dry plank]

Bottom on pre patch means nothing

[tribal blade]

#subtlety message

[dry plank]

Yeah balance team are biggest nonsense group in company

[tribal blade]

it's very confusing

[sour horizon]

Its all part of making warrs only tank again Classic style

4D chess

[dry plank]

People had hopes that with pruning balance would be easier and better 🙂

[tribal blade]

this one is so bad i have a feeling something else must be going on

[astral axle]

amazing bro

[short radish]

[smoky dirge]

how is sub looking for midnight pre-patch?

[shrewd lantern]

rogue is bad on prepatch

[smoky dirge]

dang T_T

[shrewd lantern]

Nothing to do during prepatch so its whatever

[lean sigil]

is there any addon that can track darkest night as a WA?

[short radish]

weak auras area dead

[sour horizon]

so no

[lean sigil]

wa thinking since blizz ui is showing it

maybe there is an addon that can "move" the buffs and make them bigger

or maybe some unitframe that can change how buffs looks

oh, i think i found gold, there is a bar that is called tracked buffs in standard ui

[lilac stag]

This is from blizzard. https://youtu.be/xpZPgPrBNVU

[brisk onyx]

[iron spear]

https://youtu.be/H4OtnNmsSBU?si=WRBOL0GSWyjDGuc8&t=969

Do you guys think this assessment of subtlety-rogue for m+ (low keys) and solo content is correct?

[sour horizon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaBZODRJKIE
This is the only tier list you need

[keen dome]

no I think it's nonsense

Every class without utility is F-rank for pugging but also who cares, pugging rarely follows logic.

Esp for raid pugging. If Sub is good at the raid then it's S-rank. If it's played in the RWF it's gonna be in every pug raid by the dozen.

[sour horizon]

https://tenor.com/view/pet-lover-puppy-dog-eyes-gif-23349661

[lilac stag]

Ain’t no one watching tier lists videos in here. We have the attention span needed for 2 buttons and purple.

Whatever the video says, it’s wrong unless the message is play what you find fun.

[sour horizon]

we need a purple tier list

of crayons

[vale pine]

does it include my tier list?

[keen dome]

As a puglord, it's a pretty bad video imo.

[tribal blade]

someone let me know when they let us track coup as a buff

[vale pine]

you can track evis iirc and it would turn into coup

whats the closest to that

[lilac stag]

Stack counting not enough?

[tribal blade]

i'd love to be able to set a sound

[tribal blade]

sadly you can't set a sound alert to the evis thing

i dunno the entire thing seems incredibly weird

[vale pine]

i have a stupid idea how to solve it, but its a hack

[lilac stag]

the audio alerts are super basic bitch 2 year old crap

[vale pine]

you replace the evis texture with a transparent one

[lilac stag]

it’s the most infuriating part of the purge

[vale pine]

so you can just use the evis/coup icon

[tribal blade]

issue is i'm trying to get away with just using default UI

[vale pine]

would probably need to write a script to show it on action bars and in the talent book ^^

[tribal blade]

i'll be fine playing with what they gave us after a while, it's just mega annoying

[vale pine]

i mean

you can replace the texture in default ui

its not an addon

[tribal blade]

ohhhhh ok

[lilac stag]

glhf and why do you hate yourself.

[tribal blade]

i had no idea

[vale pine]

you know clean icons?

[tribal blade]

haha I HATE SETTING UP ADDONS

[vale pine]

just like this

you create a file thats loaded instead of the one from the game

[lilac stag]

Texture replacement is what healers are/were doing to show and hide things. It’s so fucked up

[vale pine]

just that its an empty icon

you copy/paste it in the right directory and its a permanent change

unless you delete it (then its gone)

[tribal blade]

oihhhh ok i see

[sour horizon]

I dont think so but its just as ridiculous, was a good laugh

[iron spear]

were would you place subtlety?

[keen dome]

S

[onyx flame]

Excuse me? S+

[keen dome]

Haha

[sour horizon]

#assassination message

[torn tide]

the only tierlist worth looking at btw

[tribal blade]

All the things he's focusing on like pure ST, prio dmg and having a paddy profile mean absolutely nothing in low keys

it's only once you get into higher keys those things actually become issues

[trail ledge]

Can i spread Unseen Blade ? on all target ?

[tribal blade]

you can spread the debuff fazed on all targets with secret technique

[trail ledge]

But isnt my skill tree ?

its from wow head

this is Mythic TArickster

[tribal blade]

should be able to select it by dropping something else

let me see

oh maybe not, not sure tbh

just been playing DS on prepatch

[alpine wraith]

yea as trickster rn you only faze main target

[sour horizon]

were not using it in prepatch atm

youll pick it up again when leveling

[tribal blade]

this'll only be a thing for ~2 more weeks so don't worry

[old spindle]

maybe someone can help. ill skip the story and go straight to what im looking for
Raidbots dropimizer doesnt work. but i recall seeing something about being able to input ALL crafted items into a sim?

[snow birch]

Anyone has a good interface that they are willing to share for the rogue sub ?

[slate marlin]

Its in #tc-research

[old spindle]

legend. ty Gue ❤️

[old spindle]

ye sims are scuffed. full Outlaw BiS is best setup for sub rogue

ill just wait until midnight 😄

[dry plank]

Gl hf after they deprecate more stuff to resetup everything:)

[acoustic lodge]

I have a feeling blizz is making sin the go to spec for season 1

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-puppyeyes-please-gif-3335211531794540685

If I base my opinion on the color of your name, it feels like you’re projecting what you want.

[graceful osprey]

If sin is the go to spec, I’m still going to play sub

[lilac stag]

just delete you account if assa at 40 apm is the goto spec

[strange stump]

If they wont fix energy, i wont even touch sin

[tribal blade]

i haven't tried new sin yet but i'm pretty sure the intended goal for sin was to slow down energy income

to make pooling more relevant

[river coral]

is shindigg the one talking to max about rogue today?

[hazy breach]

[tribal blade]

no idea that was happning but most likely yes

in his own words he thinks rogues have lost our "rogue daddy" since JPC left and shindigg is now filling that void

[lilac stag]

can’t wait for the cooked takes

someone keep a tally of how may times prio or priority is said

[gaunt bluff]

guys i don't remember anymore, did coup proc have a slightly longer gcd than normal spells?

or something related to that

[lilac stag]

1.2 seconds

[gaunt bluff]

thank u

[tribal blade]

just long enough to make it feel off

for some reason

imagine if they're leaving it like that because they frankensteined it so much if they change the gcd it'll break the spell

[lilac stag]

DFA reasons. Ya know sneak that SoD in there.

[tribal blade]

i miss dfa

[lean sigil]

do you guys play trickster or dark in m+? done some testign and trick seems alot stronger on trash?

[lilac stag]

you never play deathstalker

EVER

you’re welcome

Also #subtlety-faq

[lean sigil]

that one sais same

[tribal blade]

hopefully it stays that way

[lean sigil]

but i dont agree with that

dark seems stronger on single

[lilac stag]

it’s ok. You can be wrong

[lean sigil]

trick on bigger pulls

[tribal blade]

DS is a horrible tree

terribly made

trust me it won't be fun to play in raid

you're gonna find it abysmal with all the target swapping needed

ever since DS got introduced in TWW this entire channel prays that trickster ends up being tuned higher haha

and even the time DS was supposed to become the better tree the top sub rogues still eneded up just playing trickster

[dry plank]

We all played DS s1 no?

[hazy breach]

After the .5 patch on kyveza yes

Practically nowhere else

[tribal blade]

i think for pure ST?

my memory is honestly hazy

[hazy breach]

Mb it was .7 patch

Not even .5

Ansurek had 97% trickster in .7

[tribal blade]

yeah iirc everyone thought we were gonna have to play it in keys too

and most people did try playing it but all the highest IO rogues stayed playing trickster

and then everyone just went back to trickster

i remember because i tried playing DS sub in stonevault and it felt atrocious

[fair anchor]

on the shard boss haha

even prepping on DN for the shard to get the refund was so bad

[tribal blade]

yeah literally any time you have to target swap constantly

DS becomes a nightmare

[fair anchor]

worse was boralus iirc

[tribal blade]

pushing as DS sin for the entire of TWW S2 was something

[fair anchor]

with boss going non hostile

ok you could prep

except when your enh phased the boss by himself

oopsie

[tribal blade]

yeah it always made you need to be hyper aware of how to keep your mark active on a case by case basis

which just felt like way too much

[fair anchor]

"do I send ? no better to keep it" 20s later "fuck I should have sent"

[tribal blade]

i lost a 21 DFC because i fucked up and didn't have DN to swap to the cart on 1st boss

so it exploded

[tribal blade]

lol yeah exactly

this new raid has a bunch of target swapping

and i just don't wanna have to deal with moving the mark bs

now that it's even harder to move it than before

[slate marlin]

I think its bc in prepatch both specs want obscene amounts of haste

[old spindle]

ye maybe it. i still pump with outlaw stats so ill just nod, agree and chuck a dagger in my MH 😄

[lilac stag]

Sims aren’t scuffed. Just no major deep dives into spl are done for prepatch. Haste is very good at high ilvl for sub.

[thorn stag]

anyone have a good talent build for sub? Im a returning player and no clue if the wowhead or icyveins builds are optimal

[lilac stag]

#subtlety-faq or the guides.

Or research yourself wclogs to see what’s being played as another option

[thorn stag]

alr cheers

[distant sage]

sooo our blind is still aoe aka bugged with the airborne talent

IF and its a big if it remains like this would it be the play to play blackjack for 30% reduced damage and healing in M+

[hollow spear]

If the aoe blind stays with its low cd, our utility would actually be quite decent, no?

[distant sage]

I mean its a 24s aoe stop with blackjack it would be busted af

[dim stream]

how are rogue specs for m+?

[cursive vapor]

Very outlaw-ish, subtle and poisonous

[steep parcel]

I can confirm better than arms warrior

[red flame]

[sour horizon]

I think this should be our answer everytime

[plush roost]

I straight up spattered off the boss i did not give a fuck bro thats my dks problem

[neon frigate]

Maybe a very stupid question: but I read somewhere that it matters if u attack from behind. Is that True? And with what skills?

[swift tinsel]

Melee attacking from behind can’t get parried

And backstab does more damage from behind

(Which is w/e bc backstab is piss damage)

[neon frigate]

And blackpowder? Is that also stronger from behind? Is it noticable in dmg?

[swift tinsel]

It’s an aoe skill so it doesn’t get parried afaik

But no additional damage from behind

[trail ledge]

its normal energy problems ?

[swift tinsel]

Outside of dance energy is more sparse

Inside dance near-infinite

[hazy breach]

Only raid bosses can parry

[swift tinsel]

Isn’t it something like mobs 3+ levels above you or something or just raid bosses

[hazy breach]

Just raid bosses

[swift tinsel]

Ah

[remote oasis]

Hey guys, how is sub looking so far, would it be a good choice to move forward with it ?

[torn tide]

wait for apex and believe

[swift tinsel]

It’s a bit polarizing but if you like the playstyle it’s fun

If you don’t then it’s not fun

[remote oasis]

I see, i guess we gotta wait a bit more

[swift tinsel]

Numbers are up in the air atm since still tuning

[remote oasis]

Hmm, not much time left aswell for release

[hazy breach]

Theyll do tuning after release too

[swift tinsel]

^

Unless you’re playing at high WR I’d just kinda focus on vibes

And if you like playing it

[hollow spear]

Will tuning passes also contain increases in purple?

[swift tinsel]

Man I really hope so

[fallow walrus]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[plush roost]

And forgemastee garfrost for some reason

[quiet smelt]

ok so i just came back... for M+ are we trickster or ds? i see bot h

[rain stratus]

Yes

[quiet smelt]

?

[plush roost]

Tuning isnt done, both can be good

Currently at this very moment, trickster

[quiet smelt]

thank you !

[hazy breach]

Ye some dungeon bosses are randomly coded as raid bosses

Rashanan in dawnbreaker as another example

But generally they cant

[plush roost]

Ye rash was actually a raidboss tho so that one made sense

Maybe cause its a wotlk dungeon

[hazy breach]

The darkness in dfc could too

Despite not actually being a raid boss

That one was sus

But

[uneven scarab]

Im pretty sure iridikron could too

from DOTI

[scarlet heath]

Iridikron is basically guaranteed to be raid boss in the future

so I guess they just thought ahead

[bleak night]

kobold raid confirmed in midnight

[vestal escarp]

Yeah iridikron did parry

Fall was one of the best keys i played

[astral axle]

yo we dont actually kill the darkness come to think of it

[plush roost]

Im 100% sure he comes as a raid boss

[bleak night]

would be the perfect fit for these mid season 1 boss raids they want to do

[keen plaza]

Kobold raid 👀

[narrow herald]

is rogue fairly weak in prepatch? just seems a few of my alts same ilvl are performing vastly better

[vale pine]

they nerfed subtlety, which was the best rogue spec

so rogue in general just looks a lot worse

[lucid jackal]

In prepatch rogue kinda mid yeh

[limpid sage]

man I gotta admit

this is the first time in a while where I don’t know if I think any specs look fun

sub was such a blast and now it feels like fury warr but simpler

[lucid jackal]

Gg....

[keen dome]

The Darkness as a raid boss and it's 20 people trying to organize candles

[jade urchin]

calm down satan

[keen dome]

Ovi'nax but candles

You need 10 stacked to get 100% on the boss.

So you can actively mess with peoples parses. It's the first pvpve raid boss

[graceful rock]

There’s 20 candles, boss flashes a pattern of those 20 either lit or not, and you have to stand on/light the ones that should be lit

[keen dome]

Also it has to be done to the rhytmn of the boss theme. Necrodancer style.

[fallow glade]

sign me up now

[plush roost]

They gotta also make shadowblast a mechanic u can meld again so i can scare the shit out of my allies by running out shadowstepping with .5 remaining and finally melding

[keen dome]

Oh yeah, 100%

[lilac stag]

Rogue will be fine. Trust

[signal moth]

whats the macro to not double cast tea, I want it to not double cast defensives on my other character but cant remember the macro command/name? anyone help?

[hazy breach]

You can just not bind tea at all

But ideally spec out of it

[signal moth]

i know, i dont care for tea

i care for the macro

for blur on my dh lol

you can double cast it

[vale pine]

was iirc just a castsequence with null as 2nd cast

[signal moth]

so

/cast somethng
/cast null or null?

[golden totem]

!tea

[limpid sage]

/castsequence reset=condition/number Spell, null

so for blur it’d be

/castsequence reset=3 Blur, null

(Replace 3 with any number really)

[vale pine]

2 is enough ^^

[floral geyser]

dont play DH

[opal basalt]

taking bets now if max is gonna reach rogue today or we'll have to wait until tmrw to know what our representative says

[floral geyser]

who is max

[opal basalt]

Team Liquid Maximum

he's doing his dps tierlist/yap sesh where he invites people to talk about their class going into the expansion

[chrome palm]

Let me save you the trouble

They are gonna put it in a or b

[floral geyser]

damn

i Only play S Tier

[chrome palm]

90% of specs are in b so

[opal basalt]

i watch it anyways because i like listening to people yap about wow

[vale pine]

i created a disslike for tier list content over time

but everyone their preferences

[opal basalt]

the tierlist really comes second in this format i feel like

not to say it's not a tierlist

[floral geyser]

i can't get my shadowdance to line up 2 stacks for shadwoblades without skippping one sechtech maybe its not enough haste

First time really playing rogue tho

[chrome palm]

It’s just a way for people to complain about their class to a large audience

[opal basalt]

but in the end he just invites some class discord / content creator people to talk about strengths & weaknesses

mostly

[lucid jackal]

My class that was 30% better than every spec just got a 20% Nerf, guys it's over.

• quote from every op spec

[opal basalt]

someone is telling him to get you on guy

[bleak night]

cooked egg

[vale pine]

i mean, you can justify tierlist content, as mentioned everyone what they love

reality is, midnight is too far off to make any reasonable estimate

[opal basalt]

i mean people are saying on a daily that we're at release candidate level of beta rn

[vale pine]

so the main takeaway is probably to hear from each class how much simpler their spec is

[vale pine]

we are already in midnight

if you go by that

the patch released, that changed our talent gates was the start of midnight

the "release patch"

to go further into it

[opal basalt]

truers

[vale pine]

you just saw A LOT

of tuning changes

so by the logic above

these arn't relevant

or any future tuning patches, bugfixes, etc

[opal basalt]

as many others i wonder what kinda data they are doing the tuning on

but there surely is some data behind it

[chrome palm]

I hope whoever talks about rogue discusses group utility / not having a buff

[vale pine]

he probably asks guy again

[chrome palm]

Or just how impactful dps buffs are again

[vale pine]

but we will see

[chrome palm]

For melee or especially rogue

Like how penalized you are compared to casters in m+

[opal basalt]

guy was the most recent rogue on the call right? before that he called shindigg iirc

[vale pine]

i think what i would do in such a content was ask non tuning relevant topics

[opal basalt]

he does that mostly really

of course tuning is in

but it's mostly how fun the class is to play and what they miss etc.

and for people to complain about whatever they got in mind

[vale pine]

fun is sadly tuning

so well

[opal basalt]

to an extent yes

but for me even if melee dps were dogshit overall i'd not pick a caster just because they're tuned better

[vale pine]

like, i can't rly tell anyone if any class or spec in midnight is fun

because fun is such a difficult topic

is pressing 2 buttons for aoe fun?

[silent condor]

ss+bp spam ?

[vale pine]

its an stupid example but i might get my gist across with the question

[opal basalt]

yeah totally

[vale pine]

if you do 150-200% of the damage the 2nd best class in the game does, its absolutely fun

and we had classes perform just like this

[opal basalt]

i'll say fdk aoe was fun as fuck in s3 and it was 2 buttons

ss + bp isnt

[vale pine]

with similarly simple gameplay

and people drove in herds to them

and had a blast playing while the class was OP

but what if the opposite is true

[lucid jackal]

I'm always down

[vale pine]

what if you do 50% or 75% of other classes in aoe?

[lucid jackal]

But I am busy for the next 2 hours so

[vale pine]

i am in bed in 10 mins or so probably

^^

[vale pine]

^ and this is the important question

suddenly

"this aoe rotaiton is stupid"

"this class feels bad to play, i can't explain why"

etc

[limpid sage]

cries in feral

[opal basalt]

ss bp is annoying because of energy imo

for fdk resources were simply not a question

[limpid sage]

putting in 4x the work

[vale pine]

you can even observe this in this and other rogue chats in real time

the nerf to subtlety aoe

2 times in a row now

and suddenly, the spec isn't fun anymore and people search for alternatives

[opal basalt]

i moaned about the sub rework when first alphas came out and still bitch about it to this day

even tho idk what i even miss

it's not as bad as i expected

[vale pine]

its not bad

subtlety is good

its just very basic

but thats the theme of midnight

[opal basalt]

totally

[vale pine]

back to the basics, lets make classes like we did in classic

[opal basalt]

like even tho i can say outlaw feels much more involved

Fatebound in AoE is builder spender gameplay

[vale pine]

i think outlaw improved

[opal basalt]

• rtb

[vale pine]

subtlety, i can't say because i don't agree on it getting better

assassiantion stayed almost the same

so

[limpid sage]

hard to better near perfection

[vale pine]

i think subtlety had a lot of problems before the rework

all of them solvable

[limpid sage]

most fun I’ve had since bfa havoc

[vale pine]

i liked it too

[north schooner]

over tww? not really, but outlaw lost much less than sub

[vale pine]

think its an interessting thing to observe

[warm marlin]

why does max always start with kalamazi

its just gonna lower the entire tier list by a tier

like tww3

everyone knows demo lock is insane broken

[opal basalt]

because kalamazi leaves everything the moment max texts him

[vale pine]

the theory of outlaw is, that people who liked it in df/tww won't like the new iteration as much

[opal basalt]

i liked the 100% adr omegablasting perma vanishing outlaw

[vale pine]

tho i guess this is to some degree on subtelty too

[opal basalt]

but my hands started to hurt after 2-3 keys

[vale pine]

subtlety feels 50/50

i think the new iteration is a good baseline, but introduces some major flaws

[warm marlin]

[vale pine]

some others argue, its better because only things got removed/cut that did not matter anyways, and that it did stay almost the same

[warm marlin]

arcane + demo 20% ahead of unholy

[vale pine]

so my opinion is more towards the "needs work"

[warm marlin]

unholy 20% ahead of literally every other spec

put demo in A tier

[lucid jackal]

[opal basalt]

i follow a sv hunter dude on yt

and that class

idek what to say

[vale pine]

how much better is it after the nerfs?

just asking

is it:

• still 10% better or
• 4% better

[opal basalt]

like SV being able to dw now fuck with the weapon pool in vault etc. and is just gonna fuck them over forever

just going to be a tuning hell

[vale pine]

think midnight is funny

i remember a lot of mage talk about how you ignore certain spells now entirely

and specs are one button essentially

[opal basalt]

pyroblast during execute

[vale pine]

then i look at my guild

and i see like 3-5 people who want to reroll mage

🤣

[opal basalt]

they want their classic gameplay back

plant at your spot

and press frostbolt on ragnaros

[vale pine]

i think its just how diffrent people precive the game

i don't expect the majority to follow individual developments, but just try specs/classes they are excited about

i am just not sure what sparks people's interesst

[leaden prairie]

idk how you can be excited about any spec in midnight

unless you are a jellyfish

[alpine wraith]

dont think anyone is expected

[thorny ridge]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[alpine wraith]

to be hype

just kinda live through it

[vale pine]

let people have fun

its rly that

there is a honeymoon phase in any game you play

[opal basalt]

I’m hyped about logging into wow again and doing keys/raid

[vale pine]

which is usually started by bigger changes/events

[opal basalt]

But if it turns out to be mid I’ll likely just reroll anything on tbc

[alpine wraith]

well gameplay is only 1 part of the overall

[vale pine]

a xpac is probably the biggest event in wow, so people will get hyped about it

[alpine wraith]

you can kinda ignore the stale bread rotation

if things are cool

[vale pine]

and many did not play pre patch

which is good

[alpine wraith]

remember we are the cavemen that had 3 buttons and 10 presses per minute almost in classic

[vale pine]

because if they did, they migth have decided to not purchase the new xpac

[alpine wraith]

and i played that shit 14h a day

[vale pine]

one counter point is

a lot of the most successful games have simple gameplay

[bronze turret]

The long-term plan for wow is to turn it into a casual game. This is just the first steps towards achieving that. Casual as in, most people playing it will be collectors and house makers. Not pvpers, raiders or m+ers

[vale pine]

but these games don't have the same set of expectations and standards^^

[opal basalt]

I wouldn’t go that far but you can see how hard they’re pushing housing in advertising. Barely heard of anything story/pve relevant in ads so far

[hazy breach]

I mean thats nothing new

[vale pine]

bfa aimed to simplify the game