For more 2 min burst
#subtlety
hazy breach
astral axle
Ohh yeah
hazy breach
The 90s trinkets just suck, and blades isnt that strong
astral axle
we've been down similar roads before!
hazy breach
And even without any trinkets the sim generally prefers to use blades at ~100s
To line it up better with dances consistently
chrome palm
intuitive gameplay
At last weak aura users will not have an unfair advantage over us
hollow spear
As if you aren't juiced to the gills with addons, Messer 💀
lofty lance
https://www.wowhead.com/news/midnight-pre-patch-12-0-1-patch-notes-380323?utm_source=discord-webhook
hazy breach
Yerp its just past beta notes coming to prepatch too
plush roost
Omg i cant believe theyd nerf us another 8% dammit man im litrrally shaking and crying 
crystal bone
hollow spear
reelin' it back in
We're so back
swift tinsel
beta tuning be like
open coyote
how is trickster sub differnet from DS in m+?
hazy breach
Not much
You press eviscerate when you proc coup instead of when you proc darkest night
upbeat garden
Omg i cant believe theyd nerf us another 8% dammit man im litrrally shaking and ...
16% no wayy
The 1% of the population who play rogue is in shambles
keen dome
Yeah but they didn't nerf our Purple so it's fine. We'll still be purple.
vale pine
how is trickster sub differnet from DS in m+?
you can macro coup and bp
upbeat garden
Yeah but they didn't nerf our Purple so it's fine. We'll still be purple.
Devourer?
vale pine
so trickster can be made even simpler to play, while deathstalker needs a bit more attention
upper narwhal
Lmao you can use 1 button for finishers in AoE on trickster?
vale pine
yes
upper narwhal
M+ will be a complete vibe
grim vessel
Secht too technically
upper narwhal
2 buttons brain afk
hazy breach
Secht too technically
Nop
It only works with coup because you dont "know" the spell coup until you have it procced
Otherwise you cant macro 2 on-gcd spells together and have it do both
grim vessel
As in 3 button s not as in macros
hazy breach
ah mb
open coyote
you can macro coup and bp
how so?
vale pine
coup is a proc
so it underlies diffrent macro logic
means you can just put it in a macro with BP and it will use coup if its ready
that said, there are arguments to not do that to have the highest amount of control
young path
Is that not the exact same tuning as last time?
open coyote
how big will the 8% flat damage nerf be and will the buffs to DS make it worth more than trickster?
hazy breach
Its being applied to prepatch
sullen hare
This tuning is finally hitting retail
hazy breach
So yes it is the exact same notes
open coyote
https://www.wowhead.com/news/midnight-pre-patch-12-0-1-patch-notes-380323?utm_source=discord-webhook
how do i discern whatis new and what isnt
vale pine
they basically put the beta changes onto live
so we get a 8% nerf
and some buffs to deathstalker abilities
also, like i mentioned in the pin
the general talent tree change
open coyote
and the ds buffs?
vale pine
means we need to actively play around mark again
but if you did already in aoe
nothing changes
open coyote
alright i admit i did enjoy playing around the mark in dungeons
so i guess this is fine even though it'll be an overall nerf
vale pine
its an overall nerf
but there is no competitive content
so 
midnight releases soon, and we get a new enviroment with that
keen dome
It doesn't impact the most important competitive thing in WoW, anyway
Competitive idling.
scenic timber
have you guys had issues with death stalker marks getting applied in Bgs and arena?
swift tinsel
have you guys had issues with death stalker marks getting applied in Bgs and are...
https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/226359213427916800 they might have some insight in the pvp channel
mark itself can be buggy so wouldn't be surprised
hazy breach
have you guys had issues with death stalker marks getting applied in Bgs and are...
If anybody ever immunes it you have to relogg to get it back
vale pine
peak design
hazy breach
(this happens on some encounters in pve too btw)
uneven scarab
absolute masterclass hero talent
hazy breach
Idk maybe they have fixed it since then but that was the case for a while
chrome palm
Yeah a boss perfect parrying my deathstalker mark for the rest of the dungeon kinda sent me over the edge for that hero talent
Don’t think I’ve touched it again
lilac stag
but there is no competitive content
But now we’re C tier in musclebrah’s tier list. THIS MATTERS!
uneven scarab
dusky verge
should I be embarressed for not knowing who he is? 😄
hazy breach
no
dusky verge
... I also don't know who that is xD
uneven scarab
you're def not missing out lmao
chrome palm
He’s the guy who makes a YouTube short of him pressing storm and bp on a target dummy before every patch with the title: “INSANE sub burst in 12.0!!!”
keen dome
Man, I could do that. I should get the youtube bucks.
chrome palm
Honestly playing someone’s wow spec wrong and talking about in a video is really funny ragebait
swift tinsel
esp if you throw the Warcraft Movies metal music behind it
modest citrus
so dumb question cause just noticed this but some of the hero talents are blocked cause "Requires Secret Technique talent" but i don't see the talent
lilac stag
its not Cubtlety rogue
Chubbybrah … Chubtlety Rogue? 
idle aurora
Wait we death stalker in m+ now?
I never minded death stalker tbh….i just don’t understand the whole why fok macro is important
hazy breach
Wait we death stalker in m+ now?
No, and "Because of Deepening Shadows extending the duration of 
its very important to try to use your abilities immediately when they are ready so you do not end up casting them 0.2 seconds later outside of . To help with this you can use macros like these to remove some of the delays in between your button presses:"
Per #subtlety-faq
idle aurora
Ugh after reading that I despise that haste is so much better in raid than m+
I am not gearing around both :/
lilac stag
Haste will be fine in m+
The amount of haste needed to get 2 extra gcds in dance is rather insignificant
astral axle
The talents are working, theyre just red
Are the talents angry with me? Was it something I said?
red pewter
Yes
astral axle
red pewter
Ugh after reading that I despise that haste is so much better in raid than m+
Haste is fine in M+. Also sub is a bit more viable in phys comp this season and shares very similar stat weights with outlaw. Not a bad thing. Can go outlaw for dungeons where pulling around 8 cap is not a time loss, and sub for others.
hazy breach
Also prepatch is almost over anyway
red pewter
^
Prayge for big tuning buffs for all specs this round on Tuesday since it’s probably going to be the biggest tuning round before release. Seeing caster #’s and times left on dungeons, those are actually pretty balanced and not super OP. Everyone else is just in the dog shitter.
hazy breach
Sub seems fine, just need a bit of ST buff
Being reliant on skyfury kinda sucks, but it is what it is
red pewter
Not 100% the 8% aura gets reverted, but very likely
red pewter
Class fantasy even
idle aurora
Haste is fine in M+. Also sub is a bit more viable in phys comp this season and ...
Ooooooo that’s kinda neat actually
swift tinsel
Can be a capstone class tree talent
Toss WaT
Or put it anywhere really idc
Blacklist ShT from Skyfury like ret has for Crusading Strikes so we can’t double dip
Boom no more Skyfury reliance
Class tree is pretty whack anyways so it could use something cool like that
hazy breach
Its just whack how theyve designed their buffs nowadays:
- Caster: ~2% from shaman, ~3% from druid ,3% from mage and 3% from DH
- Melee (sub): ~8% from shaman, 5% from warrior, 3% from druid, ~2.5% from monk, ~1.5% from dh
Like why do we get twice as much benefit from raid buffs compared to casters
(which means we effectively lose damage relative to other specs when playing dungeons as we wont have all of them)
swift tinsel
Yeah it’s all the annoying hooks tied to auto attacks, esp since we get dual resource from them
Some like unholy just get more sudden doom but we literally get cp and energy which fuels everything
Vs casters gaining just % damage for the sake of damage
Nothing under the hood
hazy breach
If you look at PE/Warning signs as a choice node, skyfury gives essentially both of those at the same time, except its not only during dance
swift tinsel
Ye
Which is insane
Idk and like the only way they can mitigate how good it is for us is to either blacklist ShT which would reallllly suck or just give us the buff ourselves
And I like the latter idea bc it’s what, Sword Spec reincarnated
All three specs benefit from it tangibly
But agreed the raid buff situation is ass
Just in general like you pointed out between melee and range
radiant swift
is skyfury still only in the group you are in (raid) or is it for everyone know? did that get changed at any point
radiant swift
idk if i remember right but i believe it was he had to be in your specific group within the raid
hazy breach
Yes before tww
radiant swift
well good thing they changed that
grand wyvern
Like why do we get twice as much benefit from raid buffs compared to casters
it's so weird. They nerfed arcane intellect cause made mage too good for M+, yet melee buffs being strong don't make warrior/shaman mandatory for M+ but other melee unwanted cause they are gimped without them.
neon pond
Hey there, do u guys know how much haste equals roughly 35 %? is it like 350?
hazy breach
~420
neon pond
thank you very much
grand wyvern
in beta i assume, cause in prepatch i have 38% haste with 395 rating
neon pond
but we want the 35 % with alacrity, right?
fallow nimbus
I never got an answer to that too
grand wyvern
idk i just asked the robot what to gear and gem based on what i had
fallow nimbus
35% with alacrity are like ~31.07% pure haste
grand wyvern
there is also racials, my 38% is 33% from gear + 3% alacrity + 2% human
fallow nimbus
Unlucky
hazy breach
Idk fuu ran most of the prepatch stuff, but just run a sim and see
hazy breach
there is also racials, my 38% is 33% from gear + 3% alacrity + 2% human
Human is not +2%
Human is 2% more stats from gear
So instead of 100, you get 102
neon pond
I am just wondering if we want the 35% with buffs or flat, like mana oil and stuff
fallow nimbus
My guess is 35% with alacrity included because my sims went full on crit vers with a bit over 35% haste already
Also untalenting alacrity changed the extra dance duration in deepening tooltip i think
pulsar hemlock
!wa
wicked joltBOT
Rogue WA's:
Wago.io TWW Rogue
For more specific Rogue WeakAuras, run the !wa command in your preferred specialization channel.
pulsar hemlock
hazy breach
Oups forgot to remove that generic all channel WA one
lilac stag
Man this is the utility we are missing for keys.
warm marlin
alpine wraith
66 rogue got expose armor
torn tide
66 rogue got expose armor
short radish
wrong channel #assassination
graceful osprey
Man this is the utility we are missing for keys.
Instead find weakness, expose weakness
ripe helm
Instead find weakness, expose weakness
blizz gonna rename it and change absolutely nothing else about it 
astral flax
!guide
chrome palm
Reduced armor or parry would be a good rogue flavored raid buff imo
radiant swift
you know now that u manage parry
is it actualy posible for m+ mobs to like neglect some damage?
i could've sworn if seen some "miss" text here and there
radiant swift
oh - thats still bad no? or does it just not happen that often, that an auto misses
that bosses still can parry is ridicilous
tepid trellis
Melees have like an 18% miss rate
lucid jackal
that doesnt sound good
its just how the game is balanced
radiant swift
its just how the game is balanced
balanced over autoattacks? is that a good way to do it?
lucid jackal
Its worked for years, why would u change it?
radiant swift
yeah makes sense
lucid jackal
It's just like, how things work
If u removed it, you would have to rebalance a bunch of stuff
radiant swift
well yes doesnt necesarily mean its good but
i always tought they do it over abilities
but its prob not that easy as i imagine
lucid jackal
its the way they balance big 1handers, vs dual weilding
lucid jackal
Back in OG wow its how they balanced using 2 1handers, vs 1 2hander for example
Between stat totals, miss chance, attack speed, they were all used
radiant swift
oh i see
lucid jackal
and like a bunch of these specs have resources tied to auto attacks
So making it so dual wielders dont have innate miss chance, they'd have to rebalance all those effects
and then again, for what, whats the acutal benefit of a change like that yk
radiant swift
understood
can we have the durability a bit higher tho
i couldnt believe how it just broke mid 2 m+ run
radiant swift
this isnt supposed to be?
lucid anvil
Is tomorrow changes that big of a deal to us?
swift tinsel
It do be a thing that’s happening
chrome palm
losing a lot of damage but its not a big deal
lilac stag
Is tomorrow changes that big of a deal to us?
It’s prepatch. Nothing is a big deal.
tidal ingot
Hey everyone, what did you think of the changes they're making to Subtlety tomorrow? I didn't quite understand, is it good?
tidal ingot
That's why I asked, because I saw more things
lilac stag
And what do you not understand of what you saw?
tidal ingot
Never mind, leave it like that. You already told me everything.
chrome palm
Hey everyone, what did you think of the changes they're making to Subtlety tomor...
the deathstalker changes are a significant improvement to the aoe playstyle
because you dont need to ignore darkest night anymore
tidal ingot
the deathstalker changes are a significant improvement to the aoe playstyle
Thank you, that's what was confusing me
Because they say many things and in the end, 8% is left lost.
chrome palm
its a bit more than 8% because of the talent gate changes
they readjusted how many nodes you need to pick up to reach the last gate
see the last pinned message here
tidal ingot
Thanks friend, you're very kind
torn tide
Hey everyone, what did you think of the changes they're making to Subtlety tomor...
i still fine it funny that all the classes and specs have lines of buffs/nerfs then theres just our sub rogue with "all damage reduced by 8%"
chrome palm
its downstream from the beta where sub was/is doing high damage
they arent balancing around pre patch at all
lilac stag
Asks what he doesn’t understand. Remains silent while still confused. 
tidal ingot
i still fine it funny that all the classes and specs have lines of buffs/nerfs t...
Perhaps they wanted to compensate the outlaw with the benefit?
tidal ingot
Asks what he doesn’t understand. Remains silent while still confused. <:garf_sit...
I wasn't going to answer you because the first thing you said to me was that you didn't understand if it was an 8% nerf when there were other things to do, haha
lilac stag
chrome palm
Perhaps they wanted to compensate the outlaw with the benefit?
no theyre just balancing around subs performance in the midnight beta
torn tide
apex talents will compensate surely
tepid trellis
cope
tidal ingot
no theyre just balancing around subs performance in the midnight beta
Okay, that's clear now. Thank you
lilac stag
It’s charrend tuning coming to live.
chrome palm
yeah blizzard lowkey getting 1 guy'd on beta
chrome palm
our goat casual sandbagging 
astral axle
i think the main thing i hear from anyone talking about beta is the usual "i dont see any rogues"
lilac stag
And you won’t see them on live either
chrome palm
theres a lot more than there was on live
like i see a lot of rogues in lfg on beta
in s3 there were very very few in lfg
lilac stag
Everyone testing how easy it is and realizing it’s still rogue
chrome palm
everyone on beta
tepid trellis
suck ass
chrome palm
just logs in
tepid trellis
then log off
astral axle
I wonder if non-members of the discord cult like new sub
lilac stag
Or they meant to start classic and hit beta on accident.
chrome palm
to do the same exact key with brew/rdruid/arcane/devo/aug, and then log off
without trying anything
astral axle
"im just doin some testing guys"
chrome palm
I wonder if non-members of the discord cult like new sub
idk if youre a multiclasser
and you log onto sub
pull talents off wcl or whatever
its super unintuitive
astral axle
"im just doin some testing guys"
chrome palm
so the impression wont be good anyways
astral axle
so the impression wont be good anyways
yeh
lilac stag
then come into discord wondering if an 8% nerf is a good thing
tepid trellis
scath i have a 6 hour drive to pick up puppy on saturday
lilac stag
nice
tepid trellis
lilac stag
What ya getting?
tepid trellis
another shiba
lilac stag
lilac stag
That’s Shibas
tepid trellis
welcome to shibas
tribal blade
haha yeah
astral axle
idk if youre a multiclasser
yeah it would check out somehow that they make changes to sub or outlaw to make it more accessible and... still rogue is like the least popular class 
tepid trellis
just gotta bribe em a bit with some snacks
chrome palm
yeah it would check out somehow that they make changes to sub or outlaw to make ...
you can kinda feel out outlaw i think
tribal blade
every time i try to pet him he snarls at me even though he wants to be pet
astral axle
My friend's shiba is weird and he said they're more like cats than doggos
lilac stag
They’re just stubborn little shits
chrome palm
but sub requiring you to cancelaura the apex to play it properly is the most unintuitive gameplay ive seen from a wow spec personally
tepid trellis
my 5 year old is a massive cuddle lover
astral axle
My friend's shiba is weird and he said they're more like cats than doggos
the shiba said this, not my friend, so that also made it weird
astral axle
but sub requiring you to cancelaura the apex to play it properly is the most uni...
Yeaaaaaah...
tribal blade
this mofo will follow me around the house, then i bend down to pet him and suddenly he's in defense mode
astral axle
Arguably more unintuitive than flag and old danse
chrome palm
i looked into it myself, and it seems like a gain to consume the apex with secret technique at ~10+ stakcs of sht
lilac stag
Squat down
tepid trellis
only thing she does that is weird is she absolutely hates going outside
lilac stag
Instead of bending
tribal blade
oh that's mega weird for a dog haha
tepid trellis
and just wanna laze around infront of the fire place
chrome palm
so it gets even a little deeper than always cancelauraing it, even though its rare to be able to consume the apex with secret technique
because of premed bug
tribal blade
Squat down
oh true
astral axle
like you could read the tooltip for flag and get an idea of how you're supposed to do it. and read danse and think okay there's probably an optimal way to go about this. But cancelaura is... heinous
thorny ridge
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
chrome palm
yeah danse was very intuitive, deceptively so
everyone wants to do fancy combos in dance when they read how it works
bit of a let down that you never play into it
chrome palm
im personally a fan of having a dance sequence of sorts
tepid trellis
oh that's mega weird for a dog haha
she is currently laying in my bed with her favorite stuffed toy watching me do lost ark quests
tribal blade
she is currently laying in my bed with her favorite stuffed toy watching me do l...
awwww
astral axle
im personally a fan of having a dance sequence of sorts
that would be tight
torn tide
she is currently laying in my bed with her favorite stuffed toy watching me do l...
best experience
astral axle
or something like alrachi reaver different sequences for different situations
torn tide
and here is the lil one
thats cute af
tribal blade
and here is the lil one
!!!!!!
astral axle
and here is the lil one
bro...
tribal blade
what a little goober
tepid trellis
wanted a darker coloured one this time
lilac stag
Absolute trouble maker inc
tribal blade
puppy stage so adorbs
tepid trellis
vs my older one
my mom tried to bathe her
she was screaming
until i walked through the door
astral axle
your mom or the shiba? 
tepid trellis
both xD
she lets me pretty much do w/e i want to her
doesent bother one bit
but she wont let other people do anything
she basically grew up in my room while i was studying for uni
cuz i was home 24/7 when she was a pup
astral axle
what a cutie
tepid trellis
she slept ontop of my desk when she was 8-14 weeks old
lilac stag
The old lady completely rearranged the couch to her liking. 
tepid trellis
mad respect to people that are able to say no to their dogs being on the coach, cuz i for damn sure cant, i just wanna lay there with them and cuddle all day
lilac stag
a home is meant to be lived in. They’re family.
While we shop for a larger sectional sofa for the tv room so all three can fit with us.
astral axle
one of my roommates in boston years ago had this cat
and bro i swear this cat was more dog than cat
lilac stag
was it orange?
lilac stag
that’s why.
astral axle
Is that a thing?
lilac stag
They’re all missing the cat 🧬 and so some of the most ridiculous shit on the planet.
bleak night
orange cats famously have a single braincell that they all share
so most of the time yours doesnt have the braincell
lilac stag
Look up orange cats on Instagram or tiktok
astral axle
this is hilarious i had no idea
chrome palm
is the cats name chester
lilac stag
we’ll see you again in 4+ hours
astral axle
knew i had something in common with that guy on g fr fr
chrome palm
this is a very chester looking cat
astral axle
his name was Ignacio (nacho for short)
is* he's still alive and well i just dont live in boston with that roommate any more
lilac stag
Goose getting ready for DFA
astral axle
goose is a good name for a cat!
lilac stag
He also responds to “wtf are you thinking?” Since it’s usually asked 2-3 times a day with the shit he does.
bleak night
one of my cats has gotten so used to hearing "no" he just immediately responds to it
after doing the thing he knows he isnt supposed to do
5 times in a row
and waiting until im not looking to try again
the other one just ignores me entirely though so i guess at least he kinda listens
swift tinsel
mine and I just slow blink at each other and cohabitate
his way of snuggling is pressing his butt up against your butt while you're laying down
astral axle
cats do love to get their stank all up on you
swift tinsel
he's not big on laying on people or being a lap cat so I'll take what I can get lol
Edith is my snuggler tho she wants to basically be worn
lilac stag
We looked at kittens when our Russian blue passed. He was generally attached to me more than the wifey. She fell in love with the orange cat. The shelter preferred kittens went home in pairs so we took a sister, solid black. Goose chose me & Ventress picked the wifey. Cat distribution system has a mind of its own.
swift tinsel
if I don't pet her enough he will literally pet herself with my hands lol
Oh yeah I got Steve with his 'brother' Brad who was the biggest sweatheart
I got Edith literally the day I started my job bc my project manager was asking if I could rehome one of her cat's cats
lilac stag
Raid Night Assistant.
swift tinsel
Same lol
lilac stag
Cute
swift tinsel
His chair is my old one that’s next to my desk now lol
torn tide
his name was Ignacio (nacho for short)
rustic geyser
I remember when sub used to share spreadsheets and python code for determining when to use symbols and dance or just symbols, or both with sectec, and at what gcd to vanish
times have changed
bleak night
i like cats better
tribal blade
i think i'm getting the bug where i randomly cast sectec in the open world again
hasn't happened since DF
just pressed strike and had sectec cast
just happened again
astral axle
Came here for sub info...nice to see it’s the same old slop as all of the internet...ie, ignorance thinking it is educated.
astral axle
bro i was reading today that there apparently was a "right wing alternate" halftime show
bleak night
yeah they all have to pretend to actually like kid rock
lilac stag
bro i was reading today that there apparently was a "right wing alternate" halft...
If you mean a pre-recorded horribly lip synced program that drew less viewers than the puppy-bowl, than yes you’d be correct.
grand tapir
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique
Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm
This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.
/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call
Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:
/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder
You can find more macros and details in Guides like 
WoWhead or 
Icy Veins.
swift tinsel
bro i was reading today that there apparently was a "right wing alternate" halft...
5 million viewbots really loved it
really stuck it to the 130+ million who watched the SB show
astral axle
lmao
lilac stag
the 30 second clip making the round of racist Rock in jorts is hilarious
maga party at Mar largo watched bad bunny 
swift tinsel
dude I laughed so fucking hard at both of those
like how can you be that two-faced
I mean I know how
bc its Shill City
lilac stag
apparently alpha maga males no longer find Latino 🍑 twerking attractive.
Unironically I hope it makes for better closed captioning for hearing impaired. since no CC was available and everything was signed, the deaf were fine but English speakers had no translation.
woeful harbor
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
chrome palm
https://tenor.com/view/gaga-lady-gaga-lady-gaga-super-bowl-bad-bunny-bad-bunny-s...
I thought bad bunny would be a girl ngl
chrome palm
Fellow rock dweller 🤝
short radish
when the whole bad bunny controversy started up last year
i thought it was like bugs bunny
but bad
lilac stag
Dude only has over 100 billion lifetime streams
short radish
and i've still yet to see a single one of them
bleak night
i only vaguely knew he existed before the racists got mad
not the type of music i listen to
lilac stag
I’m a metalhead. Very much used to listening to vocals that are difficult to understand. I’ll give pretty much anything a listen except country. I enjoyed the halftime show and the cultural expression.
The maga meltdown was just icing on the cake
bleak night
i liked that the bushes were people
bleak night
bro is chillin
warm depot
tetoris playing on tvs across america
what if miku expo just ended with the superbowl halftime show
chrome palm
It would heal the nation
warm depot
unite the world with wowaka
chrome palm
what if miku expo just ended with the superbowl halftime show
A wounded nation brought together by lemon melon cookie
warm depot
popipo to save them all
lilac stag
Maybe the world will be ready for Hillbilly Vanilly when he re-records his debacle of a performance from his living room.
warm depot
i would also accept dixon dallas
at the halftime show
thats what america needs
homoerotic country
lilac stag
I’d like a Rammstein, Bruno mars & rose halftime show
bleak night
i had to look it up to find out teto is not a latin american dictator and instead an anime girl
lilac stag
Maybe kpop demon hunters 2 next year and we get Saja Boys halftime.
bleak night
K/DA halftime show when
chrome palm
i had to look it up to find out teto is not a latin american dictator and instea...
LMAO
astral axle
we can only be so lucky next year to have an ai country music halftime show https://www.tiktok.com/@beatsbyaiofficial/video/7390433148426784031?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc
broken seal
Yoo !
Do you guys think the Apex talents for the sub are going to be interesting during Midnight?
vale pine
interessting for sure
broken seal
Because I didn’t play the « Beta » so i’m wondering if we can match with other spec or class apex
broken seal
interessting for sure
I hope so
vale pine
well apex talents are mostly "you do more damage"
broken seal
well apex talents are mostly "you do more damage"
Erghh
broken seal
Also hope the apex can make sub a bit harder
broken seal
it means more of our damage is in cooldowns
Okay interesting
vale pine
Also hope the apex can make sub a bit harder
it does, but be careful for what you wish for
let me explain what i mean
what makes subtlety hard now is not super well thought through talents or bugs
broken seal
Mmmmh
vale pine
e.g. just right now
they reworked shadow dance to not get cooldown reduction
but extended duration based on haste
the idea behind it was, to make haste more appealing and reduce thinking (don't need to understand cooldowns well if they are static)
now the problem number one is
this "extension" can give you a little extension
just enough to fit one extra spell
but this might not be the case for everyone
because imput lag, human error, latency, etc can add small delays, which wouldn't be a problem before
broken seal
Yeah I think I see what you mean about that
The main issue with the new gameplay is not necessarily about your rotation knowledge but about the point of your last message (which is not necessarily our fault)
Right ?
vale pine
sorry, i had to go afk shortly
back to it
basically, you now have static cooldowns, so there is only one way to use them kinda
but because of the haste extension
you now need to be very careful how you use shadow dance
it might be recommended to start using a macro
but now
you need to use one or even two macros
and need to make sure to not use them during a global cooldown
so you setup a macro for dance + secret
and one for dance + strike
but once you test them
alpine wraith
yea they broke that one on purpose
vale pine
you realize you can't macro dance + strike
it simply does not work, you need to press it twice to work
which introduces a small delay
so why is that?
legion, bfa, sl and parts of DF
you could macro it
but then blizz broke something
and never fixed it
so now you can't
which is a bug
but this leaves a bitter taste in your mouth
because you don't want to lose one global
so now it becomes even more complicated
vale pine
but your imput is vital here
because one of the things you can do is macro it like this and double tap
which is not the most reliable thing, but will work just fine most of the time
the alternative is to look for alternative ways
shrewd lantern
dance secret still works right
vale pine
yes
and this is where another trade off starts to become interessting
shuriken storm now does decent damage
it also does double damage during dance
and you can skill into it critical striking guaranteed
it is also another danse macabre trigger
shrewd lantern
Probably with more than 1 target its fine to?
vale pine
and you can compare the loss of doing so with the loss of delaying your casts
shrewd lantern
unless you dont have mark up as ds
vale pine
and its close enough
tame terrace
how big of a damage loss we talkin
tame terrace
dm maxxing is real lfg!
vale pine
its just about trade offs
my point was just, that even now
with how simple the spec is
mistakes made when designing talents (haste extension being in small increments)
vale pine
and bugs (not being able to macro dance + strike)
you did backstab in dance back then
and ability order was still a thing in dance
so its like df s2
but simpler
shrewd lantern
yeah that was old danse
scarlet heath
dense danse
steel zinc
and bugs (not being able to macro dance + strike)
But we dance storm right?
vale pine
yes
steel zinc
I got that macro
vale pine
because of what i just explained
steel zinc
Yeah
vale pine
so @broken seal as you see, even the current subtlety has some amount of depth to it.
grand wyvern
We might be the simplest spec bit we have the most complicated bugs
vale pine
but to cover apex talents too, we basically optimize around them in not intuitive ways
vale pine
the apex talents have multiple similar design problems
shrewd lantern
shadowcraft refunding full points after finishing
vale pine
and it means we do not intuitive optimizations
vale pine
shadowcraft just refunded cp during symbols
if you are above max cp
so 7 sht stacks
2x finisher
vale pine
it got changes slightly
now your combo point builder triggers a buff
so you get a visual notice
but you need to use a builder to trigger
so e.g. you cant finish 3 times in a row
shrewd lantern
lol i miss
vale pine
it also isn't specific to dance
shrewd lantern
sectech coup coup
broken seal
so <@287312283435008000> as you see, even the current subtlety has some amount o...
Yes I see. I knew how aware we must be now with the statics cd to match shadow dance and secret technic (or even blade) but I was looking for more. But maybe i’m just delusional and it is hard enough to make big mistakes
vale pine
- use cancel aura macros with secret technique
- use cancle aura macros on DN
- not double finish with apex procs
chrome palm
Deliberate overcap on cp is diabolical
vale pine
haha
and all of that can again be broken down to design problems with talents or bugs
just to be clear, i am the one saying its a design problem
this can mean blizz thinks diffrently about it
chrome palm
I think the biggest most offensive aspects of sub are the overcapping of cp and cancelaura macros, both of which can be solved by reverting the apex to how shadowcraft used to work
vale pine
we used cance aura macros for multiple xpacs now
^^
just to highlight that
also because of bugs and band aids
chrome palm
Interesting, I never had to deal with them until this
vale pine
it has the same origin
chrome palm
As a rotational move I should clarify
vale pine
if you want, i can explain why that is
chrome palm
Sure I’m curious what you mean
vale pine
it was in legion, when i started doing TC
basically, we found there to be a bug around stealth
the bug was overall harmless but became a lot more potent because of legendary items later
basically, stalth gets protected by shaodw dance
this means, stealth does not break when you had shadow dance up
this initially allowed you to use subterfuge more clever
so you got the benefits delayed till atfer shadow dance use
but later gave you the option to keep the MA passive up (100% crit) for the entirety of shadow dance
there ended up diffrent ways to do it, because blizz tried to fix the bahaviour and we just adjusted the use to the new ruleset
the reason it got removed however was likely pvp
while, in pvp, you might do slightly more damage
in pvp, having stealth protected means you ended up not targetable
chrome palm
Hahahaha
vale pine
and thats a big problem when the rogue can just kill off or cc targets
chrome palm
Wasn’t this also the time where you would teleport with strike in dance
vale pine
just to mention it, we ended up super transparent with the bug, you can find posts in the tc channels about it still if you search far enough back
so now lets look at the solution they came up with
initially, you just could not use dance anymore in stealth
fair
well we just dance and then use stealth
then they disallowed the use of that too
well, vanish applies improved vanish, which behaved the same
so now improved vanish did not count as stealth
after that fixed, there was still a trigger mechanism
tho that one was a dps loss
vanish, applies improved vanish, but after 3 sec when that falls off stealth
the fix to this is funny
you can try it in game
best with tfd as its easier to see
but what happens now is, you still get stealth applied when waiting 3 sec in vanish
but once you get, it cancles shadow dance
so with that knowlage, we now know why we can't stealth in shadow dance, and what fixes blizz created to solve the "problem"
and becuase the underlying problem of dance protecting stealth was not fixed
we needed a macro to cancleaura ever since
brisk onyx
What changes have we seen in 12.0.1? those on ptachnote should only be the most recent changes, there should be more, right?
keen dome
The major one for us is the change to gating, I imagine.
And the 8% nerf but that's whatever.
And maybe bug fixes, but that's up to our brave and smart and handsome TC's to figure out 
tribal blade
blizz: more class changes incoming
caveat: about classes we care about smile
more bugfixes would be tight though if they're doing that same thing of not telling us they're coming for some reason
keen dome
They rarely do.
alpine wraith
maybe they also merge some more bugfixes
vale pine
What changes have we seen in 12.0.1? those on ptachnote should only be the most ...
- 8% general nerf
- buff to deathstalker aoe
rocky lake
is iron stomach worth taking over another supercharge?
alpine wraith
like the macabre one and the trickster storm random going to main target
you cant choose induction in the new patch
vale pine
is iron stomach worth taking over another supercharge?
no
alpine wraith
you literally cant
alpine wraith
or well you could but other points are better
rocky lake
alpine wraith
they become sketchy yea fuu did a post about it
you get 2 on supercharger
cant choose leeching or induction
vale pine
either i mess up or the talent builds are sketchy
the build you look at is for pre patch
alpine wraith
well it will be live on NA in like 10 hours or less
tomorrow for eu and next day for china
vale pine
and once you reach 90, you can skill supercharger fully
keen dome
I'm not looking forward to the next two weeks, but thankfully I can just not do anything that matters.
rocky lake
ahh that explains it
keen dome
It's a silly change to bring the gating in so early, but I imagine it's a better "do early, fix sooner" than last minute
rocky lake
the import doesnt work for trickster as well so i swore i was messing up lol
alpine wraith
yea some things may break
vale pine
its just because
people might come back 1-2 weeks before an xpac
so they want them to not have to deal with talent problems
fleet acorn
They should have just changed that and don’t Nerf Rogue dmg
vale pine
the nerfs target max level
tribal blade
the nerf is intended to address the bug fix on beta
since the bug fixes sub started overperforming
fleet acorn
Idk if u guys follow casual play sub rogue its underperforming on Beta almost Tank dmg overall
hollow spear
Don't think that's true tbh
tribal blade
i thought not too
brisk onyx
I mean is, for example, is cdr effect of disorienting strike working correctly now, and is agi of quick finger being correctly applied (these were fixed in beta, but have been broken in Retail 12.0)?
hollow spear
Quick finger? Sounds dirty...
Imma wait for our pros to figure this out
I haven't even built my ui yet
keen dome
I doubt Sub is doing tank damage, it'll be fine.
brisk onyx
It doesn't matter, I'll find out tomorrow
vale pine
just don't forget
mythic+ is nothing blizz tunes around
so if sub sucks in m+
thats not a concern for blizz
balance always focused on raids
brisk onyx
I only got titles a few times in SL and early TWW, it was too tiring, and I'm no longer part of the M+ audience
regardless of the sub, I will continue to play.
keen dome
I'd love to go for a title but I'm way, way too lazy.
lilac stag
I doubt Sub is doing tank damage, it'll be fine.
I mean clearly if uninterested casual says it’s doing tank damage, we must believe it is.
Charrend just finding shitters to group with to make it look good.
keen dome
Yeah, I can't believe Charrend is applying my stratergy of "just find worse people to play with" smh
tribal blade
I only got titles a few times in SL and early TWW, it was too tiring, and I'm no...
yah that was me after S2 of TWW
title pushing is just so exhausting
keen dome
If they add a rogue tank and a rogue healer, we could put together the ultimate title team
fossil forge
If they add a rogue tank and a rogue healer, we could put together the ultimate ...
5 people trick eachother and runaway
tribal blade
my guild is actually really happy i stopped pushing
because they've watched me push so many seasons by now haha
keen dome
My experience from the outside is that it just makes people miserable
tribal blade
they wanted me to stop for my own sanity
keen dome
There are far less stressful things to be miserable about in WoW.
tribal blade
My experience from the outside is that it just makes people miserable
honestly not everyone, but it depends on a few factors like who you're playing with, if you have a team and if you're actually very highly skilled
keen dome
Oh, yeah. Totally. If you are in an insular team with equal or close to skill parity and attitude?
tribal blade
like someone who's pugging and has just enough skill to get title (me) is having a much different experience to someone with a 5 stack team and is very competent
hearty river
I read the patch notes for tommorow (EU) subtetly all dmg reduced by 8% 🤏🏻
tribal blade
Oh, yeah. Totally. If you are in an insular team with equal or close to skill pa...
yeah that
i found a full 5 stack team to push with when they released the first title and that was by far the most chill time i've ever had pushing
keen dome
Yeah
tribal blade
no pugging whatsoever unless our healer was not available
keen dome
If I did it, I'd want to do it via pugging or semi-pugging and uh. Yeah.
tribal blade
and we pushed on a reasonable schedule
tribal blade
If I did it, I'd want to do it via pugging or semi-pugging and uh. Yeah.
that's what the insanity comes in haha
it breaks people
keen dome
Pugloooooords
tribal blade
you really need to have a lot of drive and stubborness to make it pugging
keen dome
Like that Russian guy. He's got the dedication.
tribal blade
the feeling of being able to chill recently has been so nice
tribal blade
Like that Russian guy. He's got the dedication.
lashga?
keen dome
no
tribal blade
OH
keen dome
The one who actually just plays
brisk onyx
like someone who's pugging and has just enough skill to get title (me) is having...
for me, these problems aren't too bad. My problem is that I'm 42 years old, and it's much harder for me to concentrate for 30-40 minutes at a time than for a mythic raid (except for some final bosses) that lasts no more than 10 minutes
tribal blade
the actual rank 1 russian guy yeah
tribal blade
for me, these problems aren't too bad. My problem is that I'm 42 years old, and ...
yeah true
it's actually such a monumental task doing a title range key for 30 mins straight
keen dome
I can imagine
tribal blade
and doing that over and over and over again
keen dome
Just intense concentration non-stop
tribal blade
and 1 mistake bricks the whole key
the best is when someone fumbles on the last boss
and the entire run is over
that's those runs that cause complete silence in disc
(if you're actually in disc)
sour horizon
Meanwhile my lazy ass does 4 10-12 runs a week and calls it a day 😎
tribal blade
Meanwhile my lazy ass does 4 10-12 runs a week and calls it a day 😎
THAT WILL BE ME TOO
keen dome
I like getting 3k / AotC super quick. Then it's weeklies.
sour horizon
THAT WILL BE ME TOO
Its enjoyable tbh
keen dome
AotC in week 1 or 2 (in theory, fuck knows how it works this expansion)
tribal blade
i might possibly do a little pushing at the start of the season
keen dome
Only pugging.
tribal blade
when the hype is going on
keen dome
Yeah, best time for it
And then it makes weeklies easier 'cos you get the good groups every time
tribal blade
but i won't be going to title
tribal blade
And then it makes weeklies easier 'cos you get the good groups every time
truee
before i was worried about looking like a scrub if guildies of mine beat me in IO
but now idgaf
they know deep down they're not actually beating me
alpine wraith
the best kind of friends
tribal blade
Lashga had *”friend$*”
"friends" are the best type of friends
tribal blade
the best kind of friends
omfg i literally just copied you without even realizing it
alpine wraith
great minds think alike
torn tide
very true
tulip light
if i were to press sectech last global of a dance, are all the attacks empowered still?
alpine wraith
nope
only the first phys hit
but iirc it is not as horrible now as it was before
alpine wraith
but also now that should not ever happen
lilac stag
also true
alpine wraith
unless you are not geared
alpine wraith
rip
haughty mural
maybe i'll quit till they recruit one 
vale pine
if i were to press sectech last global of a dance, are all the attacks empowered...
depends on how long dance last after it
but unlikely
the initial attack is empowered tho
tulip light
I see thanks
vale hull
fuu, do you know why we got that 8 % all damage nerf ?
lilac stag
i might actually be on warrior duty for the raid in s1 <:HOLY:125089344018357053...
What happened to priest arc?
lilac stag
fuu, do you know why we got that 8 % all damage nerf ?
because of @plush roost
it’s just beta tuning getting pushed to prepatch. Nothing matters.
vale hull
ok thanks, i didnt know sub was that good on beta
lilac stag
no one plays rogue, so they look at one person performing on it and BOOM we blame him.
China got outlaw nerfed.
shadow lance
Someone got the amount of haste to have sectech at 19s?
haughty mural
What happened to priest arc?
i almost had my boomstick arc
graceful osprey
Is the stat prio for midnight going to be haste up to a certain percent then something like vers/mastery?
tulip light
There will be haste „break points“ I assume regarding global inside dance after that just sim all the gear specific to raid / m+
swift tinsel
Yep
alpine wraith
vers is taking a backseat next expansion for a while
it is haste then mastery crit kinda
brisk onyx
sour horizon
Ill miss vers for m+ 🙁
lilac stag
i almost had my boomstick arc
harsh meadow
do I main rogue gang.. still torn between roog or shammy
I really like all the rogue changes. Tough decision
harsh meadow
I have mained shaman for years and years now. I play both typically
Rogue was just my very first toon so I have fond memories
sour horizon
Fotm classes and random ass specs always catching nerfs, unless mage then just get another rework
harsh meadow
That is true, no one plays rogue. It’s actually jarring
sour horizon
harsh meadow
I gotta pick one, I have limited time these days
time to spin the wheel of decisions
sour horizon
For me if I can only play one, I pick one that has atleast one off spec role
To speed up queues for random stuff like the valentines thing atm
sour horizon
Rogue for delves tbh
sour horizon
Ez mode, skip half the shit and tricks the npc
harsh meadow
Shaman disproportionally so
sour horizon
Sham has a good self heal
harsh meadow
They nerfed it
sour horizon
And cleanses
harsh meadow
lilac stag
grass is always greener.
sour horizon
They just buffed the shit out of the hance sham self heal
hazy breach
Its just the totem and self heal no?
sour horizon
By 80%
hazy breach
They just buffed the shit out of the hance sham self heal
Yeah after nerfing it by like 80%
sour horizon
Didnt see that xD
harsh meadow
yeah normally I would agree that most classes are in the same spot
But shaman is dire
hazy breach
Mage lost more
harsh meadow
Not too familiar with mage kit
lilac stag
Shaman has always been on more of the glass cannon side of things and now mages are where they should’ve been forever. Glass fucking cannon.
sour horizon
Havoc DH got a pretty good pass for defensives tbh
harsh meadow
I just miss AG and SBT
Earth ele no longer taunts with a choice node which is fine, it was completely worthless in m+ usually now it’s slightly useful
upbeat smelt
You guys think Gloomblade is ever going to be used? If I did right now how much of a dps loss would it be??
lilac stag
Shaman is going to be wanted in any melee comp
harsh meadow
Shaman is going to be wanted in any melee comp
For sure, Skyfury is great
haughty mural
https://tenor.com/view/dafuq-wtf-parks-and-rec-gif-18032545
isnt it the year of the spear ?
haughty mural
Cant play sub without a shaman anyway
sub 🤝 arms
haughty mural
I did not - i am lost and i need a shepherd
haughty mural
then went bird brained
hazy breach
sub 🤝 arms
I would be surprised if arms' value of skyfury is as high as subs is right now
lilac stag
harsh meadow
We can’t even test totemic enhance bc surging totem is pulling out of combat mobs like hundreds of yards away
lilac stag
I bet fury is up there with AA dmg hahah
hazy breach
But yeah arms historically rely a lot of skyfury too
haughty mural
it isnt as high as subs
haughty mural
anyway we got 3-4 shamans, so thats not a problem
haughty mural
yea i'll always have one for keys
lilac stag
waits for eleem to mute @haughty mural
haughty mural
but why 
lilac stag
||Shaman Privilege.||
vale pine
i did not follow the discussion, but it does not feel heated
lilac stag
just bants
slate marlin
they should normalize sht procs for skyfury
maybe swords too so you can craft a sword early for outlaw as well
haughty mural
scath almost gets me banned in here
slate marlin
i can dream
honest surge
Working on my rotation, do i save the shadow dance 60 seconds in to have 2 dances guarenteed for the shadowblades window? Causes 40 seconds outside dance and feels kinda bad. Where as how i am playing now im holding shadow dance at 80 seconds and i have like 2.5 secs in shadow blades window waiting for dance to come off cd.
plush trout
I see a lot of confusion on this part or the new rework, how should I use st in aoe and when should I use ss as cp builder, some says st on more than 3 targets others to use ss on 2 targets, and when to use evis and when to use bp
warm depot
storm/bp on >2t
ss/evis on <=2t
if trickster then coup as its up
hazy breach
Use eviscerate when coup is up or when darkest night is up
warm depot
^
warm depot
yes unless dn or coup are up
plush trout
And saw that st is very powerful, do I use if there are 2 targets ? Or still ss
warm depot
2 targets exactly or less then you strike
basically in 2 target cleave boss fights you strike
if its adds or council you storm
krappa
tribal blade
is st the new lingo we're using for strike now
warm depot
i just use strike
plush trout
I rlly miss the old nf 🥲
tribal blade
i was hella confused thinking he was talking about sectec
warm depot
LMAO i made the mistake of using ss/ss the other day until i remembered its storm and strike
haughty mural
is st the new lingo we're using for strike now
i dont think so
tribal blade
hehe yeah the sub classic
plush trout
St = shadow strike / secret techniques
Ss = shuriken storm/ shadow step
Not confusing at all
lilac stag
is st the new lingo we're using for strike now
st is single target.
warm depot
strike = strike
sectech = secret techniques
storm = shuriken storm
step = shadow step
lilac stag
It’s
Assa
Storm
strike
sectech
Step.
lilac stag
You’re wrong then
warm depot
too much maplestory
lilac stag
@empty hornet assa or sin?
plush roost
because of <@141665120764952576>
8(
haughty mural
itll be sin forever to me
you are too young then
plush trout
Image telling some one to press dance on sub and they emote 🥲
warm depot
im not that young!!!
warm depot
i just turned 31!!!
north schooner
calling assa "sin" is a... sin
warm depot
i remember having this talk i was on the older end of players
empty hornet
<@210784027752398848> assa or sin?
assa, obviously
haughty mural
always thought sin was a zoomer term
lilac stag
assa, obviously
Thankyou
plush roost
The best sandbag idea is to not play with a shaman
Well that parts easy, what shaman?
Shamrocked is the only rshaman that is good
Ive played with
lilac stag
Well that parts easy, what shaman?
The one that’s dead from no defensives?
haughty mural
you guys dont have shamans ?
warm depot
its okay knowing my terminology is zoomer coded is lowkey affirming
im young at heart :)
lilac stag
you guys dont have shamans ? <:garf_sit:1334889429449314456>
You’re gonna get yourself banned
tribal blade
i heard rsham is completely braindead now
lilac stag
its okay knowing my terminology is zoomer coded is lowkey affirming
Zoomers don’t play assa mate
warm depot
what spec isnt
slate marlin
#bringbackscrolls
tribal blade
correction, rsham is PARTICULARLY braindead now
lilac stag
warm depot
Zoomers don’t play assa mate
its over for me
slate marlin
Zoomers don’t play assa mate
that depends, when does zoomer start?
what year i mean
plush roost
i heard rsham is completely braindead now
"Its kinda boring and a little rng" -shamrocked
Thats the rsham goat xddd
tribal blade
"Its kinda boring and a little rng" -shamrocked
yeah the rsham in my guild said that too
warm depot
wikipedia says 97-2012
tribal blade
i can't remember when i played with shamrocked
slate marlin
then im a zoomer that plays assa
tribal blade
might have been DF at some point
lilac stag
our boomer shaman is looking forward to it in keys.
tribal blade
or early TWW
tribal blade
likely yeah
haughty mural
You’re gonna get yourself banned
plush roost
The charrend shamrocked seige 17 adventures oh boy...
Mfw putrify goes on us both and its gg
tribal blade
i hated that dungeon lol
slate marlin
siege was goated until you reached last boss