#tc-subtlety

1 messages · Page 13 of 1

rugged solar
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let us know if you find something

celest nimbus
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forcing 6+ real CP for sec tech is 0.5% worse even

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but sec tech damage does go up

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it messes something up and you end up getting fewer supercharged sec techs somehow

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delicate timing stuff probably

remote sparrow
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from what i remember its because of timers on dance. sectech cd is activation cue for dance. the sequence is something like: you have 2 cps, 11 sec on sectech cd, you backstab, youre at 3 cp, 10 sec on sectech, it can dance now.

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but forcing it to 6+ means its gonna spend another 3-4 seconds per dance, i think it ends up doing less dances

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or atleast it was, when we first implemented it in 11.0.5. not sure the reason now

celest nimbus
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yeah something like that

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it gets fewer sec techs out also

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maybe due to it taking too long from symbols until sec tech so you get too close to flag cd and end up holding sec tech instead

remote sparrow
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I think it also loses naked sectech casts that way

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which leads to also fewer hits of unseen blade

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fewer stacks of flawless form

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fewer coups etc

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specs timings are really really tight ngl

celest nimbus
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I think it's kinda saved by the fact that you always have 7cp when you finish in the big cds

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so it's only the small sec techs that can be on low cp

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maybe I'll look more into this later

west wind
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Death from above counts as 2 Evis for darkest night

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It triggers while you're in air after hitting evis twice or tec evis

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Without trinket or blades its hitting upwards of 6 mill on pvp target dummies

mellow quartz
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Is there something to specify charged combo points? I didn't see anything about them in the wiki

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or should I use Symbols buff uptime to estimate if they'd be charged or not

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as a workaround

remote sparrow
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ill check one second, pretty sure theres something for it

scenic schooner
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Its a buff

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Not sure what it was called but u can check in a sim

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Separate buff for craged_1 and _2

remote sparrow
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im not sure if its a buff

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in game its a weird scripted thing

scenic schooner
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In the sim i mean

remote sparrow
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from what i remember, koji made them supercharger 1 and 2 only for the html page / report

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not sure if thats how implemented in the engine

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but you can try to see if it works as a buff. i couldnt find anything for it

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might look a the implementation later see if i can find anything but thatd be in a few hours after work

scenic schooner
mellow quartz
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and what's 'shd_cp'

remote sparrow
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should be stored shadow techniques combo points

mellow quartz
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ah, gotcha

scenic schooner
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buff.supercharge_1.up should check if u have a supercharged co

mellow quartz
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didn't know if it was a shortened supercharged

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Thanks guys!

remote sparrow
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did it work?

mellow quartz
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I can't check atm bc my boss is hovering

remote sparrow
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o7

scenic schooner
mellow quartz
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gonna try and poke around in like an hour tho

remote sparrow
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yeah i dont remember the implementation, if its a buff, should work, but i remember specifically asking koji to make it specified in the sims, so we can setup pre pulls for it. so maybe he turned it inot a buff, and the original implementation was closer to in game implementation

scenic schooner
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Everything i tried with it was a loss tho

remote sparrow
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its been a while i forget

scarlet gull
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actions.finish+=/secret_technique,if=spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=2+talent.dark_shadow.enabled+talent.nightstalker.enabled

Can I ask why this line adds additional AOE targets based on the talent choices, but doesn't also check to see if ShadowDance is up (to then benefit from the talents)? I'm sure I'm missing something, but to me that's suggesting to just send a natty SeqTech into 2-4 mobs, without Symbol or Dance.

remote sparrow
faint yarrow
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morning all, quick 1:

is this line meant to be holding / aligning something or just refreshing rupture before CDs?

actions.finish+=/rupture,if=talent.unseen_blade&cooldown.flagellation.remains<10

rugged solar
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the line you mentioned just refreshes rupture before flagellation

faint yarrow
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simc is using rupture twice before CDs tho with this there.

rugged solar
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that sounds like it can be refined more

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i just throw together some quick tests for refinements, but neither of them rly makes a impact it seems

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so while it looks weird in the sim sequence, it does not rly seem to impact the result

turbid pulsar
celest nimbus
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Just check remaining duration on the rupture dot in addition to flag cd?

turbid pulsar
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when he tested to get it removed

faint yarrow
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removed as in not refreshing at all pre cds?

turbid pulsar
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nah just not double casting it

faint yarrow
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ahh i see. yeh i expected it to be virtually non existent im just getting bug reports for HR as people are noticing it HOLY

i just thought i'd check the lines intention and see if you guys were interesting in fixing something this minor/non-impactful in the apl or i just put something in HR to stop the reports. I was going to add the exact same check as fuu's test3 here anyway.

rugged solar
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bt ye tl;dr: don't double cast in game, you only need to refresh rupture once before big cooldowns

low breach
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I have some ideas for tfd. Imo when cds are up the 3rd or even 4th finisher should be cb sectech while using double symbols in that whole dance sequence. It just feels to be more powerful. Anyone can run that?

karmic sky
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I was thinking something similar while running keys this week, though I do think CB second SecTech is better if the whole pack is still going to be alive for all 3 hits. The First Dance is clearly a powerful effect in M+, but it's a bit annoying that 95% of the time your 2nd SecTech is coming up right as your 12s Shadow Dance finishes, and it seems very RNG whether or not you can slam it before the first one finishes.

Some relevant considerations/talking points that I've been mulling over:

  • Does SecTech benefit from the Fazed debuff that it's applying to secondary targets?
  • Is losing a bit of Fazed uptime on the pack worth the additional damage of a few DM stacks? Pushing the first cast a bit further back gives you 1-2 extra stacks of DM on the first cast, and the slight delay pushes your 2nd cast of SecTech enough to make it your 2nd or 3rd cast in second dance.
  • Do Unseen Blade hits might do enough damage to warrant sending SecTech early enough to ensure you're getting both "bonus" procs during Dance/Flag/Shadow Blades? Is this skewed one way or another based on which active trinket you're using? (all damage increased by Transmitter vs. only finisher damage from House of Cards)
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Not sure how much of that stuff is tested, just sharing some food for thought. Also apologies if it's a bit unformatted/stream of consciousness, I'm basically copying from a text doc full of random notes 'n shit LUL

low breach
past fable
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  • Yes
  • Yes sectech would do more damage but youre also losing out on extra unseen blades in dance, which means less flawless form stacks and coups not in dance.
  • Yes this is why we sectech first. House of cards is just better because its higher ilvl and transmitter got nerfed
split crystal
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Was looking through how the sim played 1 iteration and this situation surprised me, surely it can’t be good to have the first sectec in cds not benefit from blades and on use trinket.

I’d expect optimal play here to be either cast rupture again before dance, to spend the combo points without there being a chance of losing winning streak stacks, then using premed with backstab and blades trinket on sectec, OR using blades and trinket before sectec, with other spell usage as in this sim, and losing the premed charge.

It’s a niche situation due to the tier set and fazed debuff, can’t evisc first global in dance because coup is ready and we want the flawless form stacks.

IMG_3197.png
scenic schooner
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did anyone already test if delaying sod till after backstab in shd is a gain? mainly to get the rotten crit on ss over bs.

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doesnt look like an ez apl change to test so wanted to see if someone else did it already beforehand

mellow quartz
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I tried looking into it but couldn't get it to work with backstab for whatever reason

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but I didn't spend a lot of time on it

scenic schooner
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couldnt get it to work as in "it was not a gain" or as in "it didn't do what i want it to do"

mellow quartz
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didn't do what I wanted

scenic schooner
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okey

mellow quartz
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I'm trying to find what I added to at least get it to dance - strike - sod

scenic schooner
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that would help ty

rugged solar
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i haven't found a win trying to force it, but would need to re-write a lot of the other conditions to make it possibly not a damage loss

ivory kestrel
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yea it is annoying to do

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snapping a not use sod with premed does not work because it breaks other things

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but you can maybe put the sod below the stab

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in the stealth action list

scenic schooner
mellow quartz
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yeah getting that all to work is beyond my experience I'm finding lol

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tried changing stuff in Variables, Cooldowns, and Stealth cd's

ivory kestrel
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dont worry same thing happened to me and sepsis

scenic schooner
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it also doesnt help that i have to wait for a 200 player queue cause im poor LOL

ivory kestrel
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i knew how i wanted it but kinda gave up at the end and tbh

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1 global is nto that big and not critting strike is whatever too

remote sparrow
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im thinking maybe we should at some point re write the apl to be less dependant?

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but also idk how, because theres nothing to anchor anything to due to the stacks of dance/sod

ivory kestrel
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fuu did some changes in this expansion but we are back to being anchored to sec tech and flag again

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cant really move a lot of things without messing those

remote sparrow
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i mean you have to anchor things to something

ivory kestrel
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i mean it is fine for those to be

remote sparrow
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yeah but thats the problem itself

ivory kestrel
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the other things i havent really though if they could be re written

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maybe just make sec tech a monster like we had SoD in df

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and move things from others

rugged solar
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a re-write without any anorcher won't work because of that

ivory kestrel
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the jerarqui or whatever is written is kinda fine sec tech flag blades sod dance

rugged solar
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the problem with the symbols change is more that many things align to symbols

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so in order to solve it you need to re-write these lines to either have exceptions

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or find other things to go by

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finding a diffrent point would put the problem elsewhere

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you could possibly make everyhing work around secret technique cooldown

mellow quartz
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would make sense if we're sending everything as "sectech + X" atm

rugged solar
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yes, we kind of play already around it

remote sparrow
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the problem i can see with that is 1) in aoe vs single target these timers will be different so itll be kinda aids

rugged solar
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also fwiw most things are straight forward to change, this is one of the few exceptions

remote sparrow
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  1. we have to optimize for the exact seconds remaining which is also aids
rugged solar
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but we already use cooldown.x.remains mainy times

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instead of the buff

remote sparrow
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fair enoguh

rugged solar
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e.g. flagellation

image.png
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so changing symbols use is not even that hard

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but requires to re-wire the dance section

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which is a single line ^^

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but to take out the exraggeration of the problem

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the diffrence seems to not matter

image.png
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this is with a hacky implementaiton to move symbols this one sec

image.png
remote sparrow
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sub runs finality > rotten anyways no? I believe it was a gain since we added backstab to dance

rugged solar
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both is on par

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if i do 100k iterations, doing the rotten trick is 0.1% worse

image.png
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(loser error range)

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it only does it in the opener so not "always"

remote sparrow
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yeah its just preference then

rugged solar
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so lets quick check a slightly shorter fight length

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seems to stay the same

image.png
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3 minutes

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so to conclude from the quick hack, i would say the intuition that it is low in impact is true

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and looks like from the quick test, is indeed up to preference

rugged solar
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Just one addition to the top, we forgot to discuss higher target counts.
running simulations, it shows only a win on 5 and 6 targets.
7 Targets is when we start to use shuriken storm, and where using backstab first becomes fairly damage neutral.
So we run into the problem of the rotten bug (storm consuming both rotten charges at once), means 7+ it might be just strike as first builder and storm as second.

image.png image.png
crimson vault
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not sure why but someting went wrong

image.png
remote sparrow
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looks to me like some end of fight condition

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prob just an awkward kill timer, it sent dance without regards to flag timers since end of fight was close

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and then double rupture before flag is just what it does so it did it in dance

rugged solar
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the rupture can be solved by adding a ttd condition, i can look tomorrow if thats worth it

remote sparrow
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my guess is its a really rare instance

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would need to be around 4:45-4:50 kill timer i think for it to happen

rugged solar
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possibly, i am in raid atm so can't check

remote sparrow
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all g enjoy the raid!

mellow quartz
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may the 4pc grant you its blessing

rugged solar
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we had 1 rogue token drop so far and that one was hands

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so i am just suffering getting tier somewhere next week

mellow quartz
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I'm in the same boat, I'm banking on the tier piece in my vault, 2 cata charges and next week vault tier

lusty latch
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Is the transmitter a sim bait or is the new raid trinkets just that bad

mellow quartz
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Transmitter super strong, new trinkets not that great

rugged solar
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the sims are not bait

lusty latch
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I’ve gotten eye + house of cards during splits - transmitter still sims ahead by ALOT

mellow quartz
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because its really strong

lusty latch
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So rn im using myth transmitter + eye for raiding

remote sparrow
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you should probably ask these in #subtlety , this channels mainly for talking specifically about ideas to test in sim / theroycrafting things. But yes new trinkets = bad, transmitter = that good.

lusty latch
manic heart
# split crystal Was looking through how the sim played 1 iteration and this situation surprised ...

It thinks you are going catch the shadow clone damage with Shadow blades while sneaking in a dance builder gcd. It’s very unrealistic to consistently pull it off in a fight and I wish the sim would get rid of it. I really don’t understand how not having the initial sectech damage be covered by shadow blades is worth the gcd unless delaying that first sectech to line up with shadow blades would mean you are missing coverage on the following sectech, which would just be another tight window that most people would miss anyway.

karmic sky
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I was checking out the custom APL used in Fuu's sheet and was wondering why it doesn't evis for S&D before going into CDs on pull? Clearly something is effective about this APL since it's ~1% DPS increase for my character, but the only changes I can spot is the slightly adjusted opener and premed-backstab as your first global in Dance. I do realize that it's only losing 4 seconds of uptime, but that sounds sub-optimal, considering you're missing out on all that attack speed for:

  • 4 seconds of potential Unseen Blade resets from Thousand Cuts.
  • 3 seconds of Symbols uptime, resulting in fewer stacks of Shadow Techniques.

Am I just high on feelcraft and overvaluing that bit of SnD? You'd think that a few extra stacks of Shadow Techniques should increase the odds that you'll get an additional CP refill during CDs, but I guess that may never matter in practice Thinkge

past fable
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It was in before, but it was a +-0 so we removed it because its just simpler to not have it

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Also symbols uptime is not related at all

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Its 4 seconds of snd uptime VS 2 seconds+1 full finisher of wasted dance cdr

karmic sky
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Also that finisher CDR is pretty compelling, I hadn't thought about that

crimson vault
scenic schooner
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im sure there is more to gain tweeking arround, i didnt test much. i also tried to go all the way and send sectech on cd but that was a loss already, but it was a gain to send it untill 10 sec on flag cd

low breach
rugged solar
# low breach <@194804407706189824> that correct?

all seems like very minor changes, so not changing how we play just improving the sim.
I will need to sim a bit and see if they need more adjustments or are fine as is because small macro optimizations like this can have negative impact on aoe/cleave/dungeon slice

split crystal
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Has anyone simmed if backstab with premed is a gain when you don't have find weakness? There are bosses this tier that you can't reliably stand behind and i'm noticing not having find weakness for my first finisher sometimes

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Noticed this playing with and without rotten so I assume it's to do with the way the boss is facing and not the slight delay after pressing symbols that the rotten triggers (which may or may not still exist but was a thing in aberrus)

mellow quartz
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@split crystal It's going to be a loss if you're losing find weakness uptime bc of shadowed finishers damage, just depends on how often "sometimes" is

split crystal
mellow quartz
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That's with my gear so results may vary

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idk how to add variance in position uptime so I'm sure those numbers can be tweaked by a bigger brain than mine

brave prawn
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This suggests the backstab first global of dance is only a gain if the target already has find weakness applied if you can't be behind target? I assume this only applies for non-flag dances, where your first finisher is probably evis that will hit without find weakness up

mellow quartz
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As stated, those numbers are from getting zero FW uptime via backstab in general so if you aren't missing FW all the time, its considerably less of a loss

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It represents the worst-case scenario of no backstab crits granting FW

brave prawn
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I'm suggesting you track FW and press shadowstrike first builder of dance outside flag on fights where you can't always be behind the target

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If its not already up

mellow quartz
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Iirc it was effectively dps neutral to only BS w premed during flag's 2nd sectech so I'd assume its a similar case

brave prawn
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I may have screwed something up not super experienced with editing APL but seems like a pretty significant gain assuming you cannot be behind target (this testing is motivated by sprocket prog)

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at least for my character

brave prawn
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this seems to be a very slight gain even when not in front of the boss, seems to reduce variance by a decent bit. probably some iterations where backstab just doesn't crit for multiple hits in a row and coup is cast with no FW up

image.png
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for example one of the quick sims I ran had the 3min flag open with cds -> sectec -> bs -> coup with no FW up, shadowstrike would prob be a gain in such a situation

rugged solar
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if you sim comparisons like this

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You can paste these two lines at the topchart_show_relative_difference=1 relative_difference_from_max=1which adds relative diffrences to the graphs

brave prawn
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about 1.3% gain assuming you are 100% in front of boss though

image.png
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presumably somewhere in the middle with real conditions

rugged solar
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if you don't already, you can add iterations=100000

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to get lower variance

split crystal
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Gloomblade might be worth instead of replicating shadows on pure single target when in front of boss, it has no positional requirement for find weakness application

past fable
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The tooltip lies

split crystal
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Oh I thought they fixed it

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Is there still a delay on rotten then?

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I’ve definitely backstabbed first global in dance after using symbols and not applied find weakness

split crystal
brave prawn
split crystal
# past fable It does

Oh sorry I misread this, you said both gloomblade and backstab have the positional requirement and I interpreted it as neither do

rugged solar
past fable
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Yes both do

brave prawn
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cleaned some stuff up, increased iterations, added a check for premed since it was casting backstab 2nd builder in dance:

image.png
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1.6-1.7% gain if forced to be in front of target for entire fight, very small gain with behind target but variance reduction even so

oak crystal
rugged solar
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fw_targets is probably a good condition, but it possibly makes sense to either combine both or have a fall back option.

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still very good input, we will see how we can incorparate it in the apl

rugged solar
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I spend some time on the above, and the following line is the best i got, i tried to simplify it without much success, if anyone else finds more optimizations let me know.

actions.finish+=/black_powder,if=!variable.priority_rotation&variable.maintenance&(((variable.targets>=2&talent.deathstalkers_mark&(!buff.darkest_night.up|buff.shadow_dance.up&fw_targets>=5))|talent.unseen_blade&fw_targets>=5)|action.coup_de_grace.ready)

```**__Noticeable changes:__**
- Tracking Find Weakness buffs is more specific but 5+ active find weaknesses is the breakpoint.
image.png
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I also improved the shuriken tornado line, @past fable had an idea to improve on.

actions.build+=/shuriken_tornado,if=buff.lingering_darkness.up|talent.deathstalkers_mark&cooldown.shadow_blades.remains>=32&variable.targets>=3|talent.unseen_blade&(!variable.stealth|variable.targets>=3)&(buff.symbols_of_death.up|!raid_event.adds.up)


Noticeable changes:

  • Don't use tornado during Shadow Dance.
  • The use of Tornado as a filler on 1 and 2 targets is again a small damage gain.
image.png
past fable
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Its also a question of whether tracking and reacting to the number of FWs out is reasonable to do ingame

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But seeing as its a fairly large gain in simc (ie not like a +0.5%) its probably worth it anyway, similar to the cursed deathstalker aoe tech of avoiding DN

rugged solar
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i could potentially modify the target counter weakaura for that purpose

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ill go afk for a bit, ill post the updated apl and comparison sims after

mellow quartz
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I might have one in my wago that I made that shows the BP icon when FW is at a certain threshold

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I have to update with new st/aoe threshold though

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since its still at pre-11.1

rugged solar
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(okay, had just enough time to do it before going afk)

ivory kestrel
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Yea there are ways to track FW as a total number on dotfocus and other things you can also set up individual timers for mobs with durations so you can know if FW expires in 1 sec for x mobs to not bp in that case

mellow quartz
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Yeah I think the one I have has Least Remaining Time, could probably mod it to show all units

low breach
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Tldr rather then check target count you check the FW count to decide when to BP correct?

rugged solar
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it is a slight benefit yes

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as you see from the sims, it depends on the target count and hero talent

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i only used 4 profiles in the comparison above

past fable
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Its also (unsurprisingly) worth a lot less than what it says above if youre using a profile thats running rotten (or silent storm lol)

rugged solar
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i think 2 of the profiles should run rotten

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if i am not mistaken

past fable
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No its running the 1 finality variant

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The trickster one that is, one with 1 finality and one with db

rugged solar
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one profile does

image.png
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not 2

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i was wrong

past fable
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I was only looking at the trickster ones, but ye

rugged solar
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was my bad, i thought i had a non rotten and a rotten for both selected

past fable
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Those have invalid talent hashes

rugged solar
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hmm

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you are right, must be a copy/paste mistake from me

mental vine
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What am I looking at exactly? 🧐

rugged solar
remote sparrow
rugged solar
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any target related checks will be compute expensive

ivory kestrel
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i used one in shadowlands when storm was capped but the bps hit all targets with FW anyway so i had to move around

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but also quite funny that it buffs finality profiles a lot more than rotten

mellow quartz
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so with Rotten does that drop the aoe threshold to 5+ since it guarantees >=5 FW

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and that's the breakpoint according to the apl update

ivory kestrel
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yes rotten makes the logic change not much basically by filtering for FW you open avenues to other builds(if they existed) to also use the optimization in this case from 5+

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that it is why only 0.x% wins for rotten but more for finality

mellow quartz
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ah, that's kinda cool

rugged solar
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it seems fairly neutral on 5 targets

image.png
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so basically, you would storm in dance and BP on 6+ instead of 7+ with rotten

mellow quartz
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Makes sense, really wish they'd tune Nimble so that its a gain over bpat <= 8 but what can ya do

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(or delete FW)

rugged solar
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APL change:```ansi
actions.build+=/shuriken_storm,if=talent.unseen_blade&(buff.flawless_form.up&variable.targets>=3&!variable.stealth|buff.the_rotten.stack=1&variable.targets>=6&buff.shadow_dance.up)

image.png
scenic schooner
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I did some testing with this and making the apl evis and BP once for danse stack depending on target counts.
change:


actions.finish=secret_technique,if=variable.secret
# Maintenance Finisher
actions.finish+=/rupture,if=!variable.skip_rupture&(!dot.rupture.ticking|refreshable)&target.time_to_die-remains>6
actions.finish+=/rupture,cycle_targets=1,if=!variable.skip_rupture&!variable.priority_rotation&&target.time_to_die>=(2*combo_points)&refreshable&variable.targets>=2
actions.finish+=/rupture,if=talent.unseen_blade&cooldown.flagellation.remains<10&dot.rupture.remains<fight_remains
# Direct Damage Finisher
actions.finish+=/coup_de_grace,if=debuff.fazed.up&cooldown.flagellation.remains>=20
actions.finish+=/eviscerate,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&variable.targets<=7&variable.targets>=4&!used_for_danse
actions.finish+=/black_powder,if=!variable.priority_rotation&variable.maintenance&(((variable.targets>=2&talent.deathstalkers_mark&(!buff.darkest_night.up|buff.shadow_dance.up&fw_targets>=5))|talent.unseen_blade&(fw_targets>=5|buff.shadow_dance.up&fw_targets>=2&!used_for_danse))|action.coup_de_grace.ready)
actions.finish+=/eviscerate```



it was either neutral or a gain on all target counts i tried (1-9) but is somehow a loss on dungeonSlice, the loss is related to the extra evis line but idk why.


 gains: 
0.7% on 2 targets
0.5% on 6 targets
between neutral and 0.2% on all other target counts

-0.5% in ds?


2T
-2min
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/18SJXP4u95D3NfZy7kZPHb
-5min
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bExH6n5GBzeqJyfDCCh5PH
6T
-2min
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iAhdJ5adVTgSgyqR6qSANi
-5min
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6nTahDigoAoqgDUbY7jFkK
9T
-2min
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/puRQsB2EEg1yrcoKGwkHFt
-5min
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4h3CHSCcF1kVG1GFJDsYk4
DS
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cpzqbq2MR3xH3kqbDVs7me
ivory kestrel
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For ds might need to check the boss with adds or something like that as it may be overusing it or delaying coup for ST

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i do see it at least on 3+ using 1 bp for DM if coup is not up for second finisher

#

on 2 targets it seems interesting it was that high tho

brave prawn
#

I noticed that since vanish -> shadowstrike -> evis was removed from the opener we have a few extra seconds of flag to work with after blades had ended. Theorized that maybe moving the 3rd dance of a fight earlier (to around when sectec has 19s left and when the persistent flag buff has a few seconds of duration left) might be a gain, since entering this dance earlier allows for a a couple extra buffed eviscerates to benefit from flag and less of a risk of losing tier stacks before this 3rd dance. You do lose a few extra seconds of symbols uptime though. Mangled the life out of fuu's poor apl to find that it was a small gain (0.2% ish). Maybe worth pursuing for someone who could it implement it more elegantly but an interesting test nonetheless.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/f65Mb1J7zFs1sJWyowT1bG

Raidbots
Quick Sim - Bingusguppy - 2,235,885 DPS - Raidbots
scenic schooner
rugged solar
#

interessting

#

thanks

mellow quartz
#

bury it deep

#

this never happened

rugged solar
#

we won't switch to it because of cleave and burst

#

but its nice to have deathstalker competing

mellow quartz
scenic schooner
#

Did anyone ever try to sim if using sstorm as a builder if coup is ready and you know u have an unseen blade ready?
As in i used sectech with coup ready could build with storm? Maybe just limit it to when premed or vanish is up?

#

Wanted to test it once i get home, but idk if someone has done it already

past fable
#

I couldnt get it to be a win

scenic schooner
#

Sadge

rugged solar
#

+1 what eleem mentioned, i do remember it being no damage gain

crimson vault
#

and this was simmed quite a time ago

scenic schooner
#

Okey, ty

cunning ore
#

What about pressing sstorm as a builder if FW isn't up and improved SS is taken (single target)

crimson vault
# scenic schooner Okey, ty

it is possible a marginal gain if in dance with more than 7 targets and somehow you generate cp with BS/Strike and you have to SecTech but coup is on, with Tea build while FW could drop soon and no rot or some other werid situation, really not recommended tho

ivory kestrel
#

Basically the ide scath and I had was for PVP trinket and prism so you use the pvp trinket on pull and at 1:30 with cds

#

then prism on 3 mins pvp trinket on 3:20 and pvp trink again on 4:30 etc

#

Prism is effectively a 3 min powerful trink and pvp is up for every set of cds

tacit horizon
#

Could you also replace pvp trinket for forge

ivory kestrel
#

forge has 2 mins cd so it is not up for every set

#

although it is not bad to use on pull then at 3 mins etc. but you would be using prism with not full stacks

analog island
#

I won’t even pretend like know how to implement it. My napkin math conditions are keep badge as it currently is with blades and use it if prism isn’t at x amount of stack or if prism is on CD. Example use prisim at 3 mins, follow up with badge at 3:20. then if fight is ending use prisim again at 4:30 with badge at 4:50. if you don’t use prisim at 4:30 it uses badge there.

#

I just don’t know without robot if the extra pump is enough to go over a strong passive. ofc the dmg amps could change that as well.

latent sonnet
#

0:00 forge
1:30 netherprism
2:00 forge
3:00 netherprism
4:30 forge
6:00 netherprism

wouldnt something like that work with forge (or drop the 90s netherprism cast w/e)

#

or you can pretend forge is 3min
0:00 forge
1:30 netherprism
3:00 forge
4:30 netherprism
6:00 forge repeat

low breach
#

I think this is still worse then a passive

#

and 2nd boss is semi passive

analog island
#

the pvp trinket may possible fill the awkward timings but it needs actual numbers

low breach
#

pvp trinket is pretty dog

#

but gotta sim it again

night jetty
#

The problem is that the sim probably doesn't use the pvp trinket as we think it should with prism

low breach
night jetty
#

I'll try to sim it separately later to see what the apl does

analog island
#

Unless I’m missing something I don’t see badge in the above sim. The s2 apl paired badge with blades and treated it as a 90 second cd. Forcing the 1 min at times would need attention.

low breach
analog island
#

mobile browser issues apparently. dead

mellow quartz
#

Is that the 723 or 704 badge

low breach
#

but cant make everything hc

#

was just to lazy

faint yarrow
#

actions+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=!buff.darkest_night.up&effective_combo_points>=6|buff.darkest_night.up&combo_points==cp_max_spend|action.coup_de_grace.ready&cooldown.secret_technique.remains>0

this will get stuck on coup not being castable (0 combo points but sec tech on cooldown)

past fable
#

Im not sure I follow, if you have 0 cp and sectech is on cd it will just not do a finisher

faint yarrow
#

it won't build either because this part will cause it to sit and wait for sec tech to come off cd.

|action.coup_de_grace.ready&cooldown.secret_technique.remains>0

past fable
#

What, it will just not trigger that line

faint yarrow
#

the OR makes this a separate condition not tied to any combo point checks

past fable
#

And move on

#

Or nvm i see what you mean with the new 4p.

twilit hearth
low breach
#

~6552 DPS (0.12%)

brave prawn
#

running with low iterations, can increase to 100 000

image.png
twilit hearth
low breach
#

~1464 DPS (0.03%)

#

thats not any gain kekw

twilit hearth
#

posted it rather for meme, but its a gain

#

free enrage dispel included xD

coarse laurel
#

Finishers have CP checks as part of their ready() check in the module

# 
  bool ready() override
  {
    if ( !ab::ready() )
      return false;

    if ( ab::base_costs[ RESOURCE_COMBO_POINT ] > 0 &&
      p()->current_cp() < ab::base_costs[ RESOURCE_COMBO_POINT ] )
      return false;
#

So coup shouldn't return as ready at 0 CP

#

If it is, that would be a bug and I can look at it

mellow quartz
#

idk shows shiv at a 2-3k gain when I run it too, kinda memey but fun

#

and it grants a danse stack lol

rugged solar
#

interessting, there might be some opimizations around that line

ivory kestrel
#

it does seem a win to pool sht and energy if you have 3-4 escalatings so you stab once proc coup then stab another cap and coup again if cds/dance are not close but it does not hapen often enough maybe

mellow quartz
#

for updating the Find Weakness Tracker WA, are we set at 4 FW in and out of Blades for Trickster

rugged solar
#

3

#

3 fw targets is the latest estimate i had in simulations

mellow quartz
#

for both situations? gotcha ty

rugged solar
#

(always 3)

mellow quartz
#

interesting I figured the nimble/blades change would have upped the threshold

rugged solar
#

this is the rough increase for it in simc, but the implementaiton of the new effect is young so probably need to check it again in the future to be sure it is correct

image.png
mellow quartz
#

appreciate the insight!

rugged solar
#

looks like within what we expect

#

probably both worth to have here just for visibility

#

for how to play, 3 fw targets means basically ~4 targets, the fw tracking only opts you a small increase from that (smaller than whats on the sim above) so i don't know if i will perosnally use the weakaura

mellow quartz
#

yeah its mostly meant as a coaching tool for people getting used to when to use either finisher

#

and since there's no real disparity anymore it's less necessary

cinder root
#

I just tested using Cheap Shot if Shot In The Dark is up and you're below x energy, but it came out neutral every time. I can't think of why, as there's no downside to using it if you'd lose a gcd anyway. Does the sim pool energy before dances? Also any resources you can recommend in terms of theorycrafting?

cinder root
low breach
rugged solar
cinder root
#

Might be worth using Storm instead of backstab if the boss is facing you, haven't tested though

low breach
brave prawn
# rugged solar

should this not be basically equal since FW uptime is practically 100% when behind the boss

image.png
cinder root
brave prawn
#

behind

cinder root
#

wat

low breach
#

But what if fw is up and your infront?

#

because on any boss fight you have near 100% uptime of fw except when your not hitting the boss

cinder root
#

then you still run the backstab tech is my guess

#

don't think the 20% backstab dmg changes anything

cinder root
#

or dimensius

brave prawn
# cinder root wat

fuu's picture suggested it was a 2% loss to skip backstab if no fw when behind the target, it shouldnt be

cinder root
#

Difference in crit?

brave prawn
#

based on the numbers I believe he is showing standing behind the boss (default) compared to standing in front and skipping backstab (4.022)

#

i am reading it again and i think it was just misinterpretation

cinder root
#

ahhhhh

brave prawn
#

i wanted to run a full test with alternating boss position between front and back (i.e. sprocket) but you can't do it without modifying the simulationcraft code itself

#

above my paygrade

cinder root
#

ye there's tons of stuff I wanna test too, but don't have the knowledge to test

brave prawn
rugged solar
weak ibex
#

Did I do something wrong?

#

I removed the ruptures 10s before cds line completely

#

And I changed the:

actions.cds+=/symbols_of_death,if=(buff.symbols_of_death.remains<=3.5&variable.maintenance&(variable.targets>=3|!buff.flagellation_buff.up|dot.rupture.remains>=30)&(!talent.flagellation|cooldown.flagellation.remains>=30-15*!talent.death_perception&cooldown.secret_technique.remains<8|!talent.death_perception)|fight_remains<=15)```
#

So that dot.rupture.remains>=30 is dot.rupture.ticking instead

#

Dungeon slice and m+ talents btw

past fable
#

Ye the rupture line seems redundant now without the S2 tierset

#

Good catch

ivory kestrel
#

correct it is better to just sit on cps etc

past fable
#

Its the aoe line, about using ruptures to not lose tier set stacks

crimson vault
#

@rugged solar The apl condition for AOE is quite concern:

  1. BP condition depends on target numbers rather than FW numbers
  2. there is no condition for rotten for Storm while APL continuing using BP
    simple example:
    https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bF32xcqRiyjnVYb8iNpL1h
    09s storm and then 18s storm with BP all the way, while next storm happens at 41s
    there is no usage of storm on rotten and thusly no FW for other targets causing BP usage wrong.
Raidbots
Quick Sim - 叶落小红手 - 23,141,973 DPS - Raidbots
ivory kestrel
#

after some checks it was better to streamline it for stargets instead of FW as the diff was not big

crimson vault
#

you mean even if BP with only one FW rather than use evis+nibbling?

#

is there a difference sim or a FW checking APL to see numbers?

#

and how about target numbers above 8?

ivory kestrel
#

yea bp does a ton of dmg

crimson vault
#

how much was this not big?

ivory kestrel
#

like 80% of an evis

#

so on 4 targets it is more dmg always and well in most situations you do have some FW from other storms

crimson vault
#

i know BP does 75% of an evis, but what about if no shadow BP without FW?

ivory kestrel
#

or at worst you can tab target strike

crimson vault
#

are you saying BP with one FW can out number or come close to evis at 8?

#

The apl simply has no storm and still use BP without shadow BP, what's plainly 75% physical and no shadow, should this be correct that BP without shadown bonus still out perform evis?

#

Or should we do rotten storm for BP?

#

Since now if you open the apl and read for a second, one FW and BP on the casts

past fable
#

It storms with the coup thing

#

But yes im gonna push an update to change it to bp at 4 or more without any conditions

crimson vault
#

why you cannot simply open the link and have a look

#

9s storm and 18s storm and then 41s storm
you saying one FW BP is good in AOE?

rugged solar
#

storm for rotten is not worth it anymore

#

as eleem mentioned, there is a pending update to aoe to generalize aoe to 4+

crimson vault
crimson vault
past fable
#

4 targets

crimson vault
#

1 FW 4 tar BP > 1 FW 4 tar Evis?

rugged solar
#

e.g. a quick apl change to add storm

image.png image.png
#

is a overall 1.9% loss on 5 targets

rugged solar
#

4 targets is easier to understand

crimson vault
rugged solar
#

just because you might wonder

#

3fw bp

crimson vault
#

What I'm saying is
currently APL allows 1FW BP and that's certainly a dps loss, no?

rugged solar
crimson vault
#

I'm not removing backstab

rugged solar
#

what change exactly would you want to test?

fickle lava
crimson vault
#

it is okay we say in general we use storm somewhere and thus we dont use it on rotten.
What i'm saying is if we're not using storm due to certain conditions happened in AOE, shouldn't we switch back to evis rather than BP if we dont have good FW numbers?

rugged solar
#

so it does not matter anymore

#

tho i can compare

#

mpment

#

*moment

fickle lava
#

ah

rugged solar
#

its pmuch the same

image.png
#

to have premed on storm or backstab

rugged solar
past fable
#

Its closer if you remove the coup storm too, but still not worth

crimson vault
#

what if we make it checking FW and evis at certain low FW numbers rather than simply BP?
I'm totally okay with the fact we dont use storm for rotten

rugged solar
past fable
rugged solar
#

the diffrence with FW targets was almost non existent when i tested last time

#

there was a little update to the implementation in between

#

but overall tracking FW is just overhead for no real gain

crimson vault
#

So put it in layers:

  1. storm on rotten is loss
  2. we use storm somewhere for coupe anyway
  3. then it is okay to track FW but not a real gain
mellow quartz
#

imo the only real reason to track fw would be to know if you backstab or not with premed

ivory kestrel
#

or if you changed targets and want to evis

#

like whoops no fw

mellow quartz
#

yeah that too

ivory kestrel
#

actually it is a kinda win if on 3-4 targets to check if they have FW and strike those that dont

#

if only wow targeting was not such ass

mellow quartz
#

gotta have a mouseover strike macro heh

crimson vault
#

in this comparison, rotten has one extra crit and dmg buff for Strike, how it comes to a 2% difference considering Storm used in dance

#

if one crit per dance is better, It couldn't be two crit+dmg buff per symbol has a 2% behind. The sim is done in 60s so we dont have dance without symbol issue I believe.

#

and also, there is no Silent used in 3rd or 4th generator in a dance

#

In this sense, replace a certain backstab or strike to storm when using rotten should have a better outcome

crimson vault
rugged solar
#

i tried first or second

crimson vault
#

Ideally, we're discussing if we could make symbol earilier before dance followed by a storm then entering dance while let sim tell us if a preme+rotten stab or strike should be better followed by normal dance sequence.
However, I believe symbol condition was an anchor so might not be changed without caution. @rugged solar could you help this when you have some time?

image.png
rugged solar
#

just to be clear, your sim is 1 min in length

#

when you increase the length it becomes very obviouse to be not a damage gain

#

e.g. this is a typical 5 minutes

image.png
crimson vault
#

yea, we understand this, however, we considering M+ encounters filled with many 1min length fight rather than 5mins of 8 targets.

rugged solar
crimson vault
#

this is why we're not setting buffs for the moment and we also trying to consider if mute flag and blade to better reconstruct environment

rugged solar
crimson vault
#

is this DS or ?

rugged solar
#

yes

#

super short duration simulations like 1 minute have a big advantage

#

they have anatural variance of 20%

#

so its a 40 sec - 1 min 20 sim

#

and they lack any long term consequence for cooldown missuse

crimson vault
#

yes, we're aware of that, we're trying to make different situations of M+ considering different cooldown status.

#

since M+ simming under one DS route is not reflecting a lot of nature how sub can be played.

crimson vault
# rugged solar and they lack any long term consequence for cooldown missuse

it is not about cooldown misuse, I believe.
The nature lies in the fact of sim's proc that enjoys universal averaged random so the extra Storm will implicitly taken over the gcd where we can proc UB so the whole UB refresh timeframe is delayed bit by bit.
and ofc the extra line provided isn't perfect. Certain Storms are still missing while some storms might be not optimal if it causes prolonged period without stab or Strike.

median prism
#

was messin around with some sims for saladbar a guildy brought up, and noticed that it's doing some weird sequences with cds? is this worth all just to not waste t he cps from premed? to not have blades on sectec and 2 coupes?

image.png
rugged solar
#

thats fairly close to the end of the fight, but what of the sequence would you change?

past fable
#

It should blades earlier but its during premed so it doesnt

#

I think that situation is rare enough that it doesnt have much impact on the overall though

median prism
past fable
#

Its a weird niche timing issue with how it refreshes before so it skips that bit after flag which kinda bricks it, ive put in a fix but it like doesnt really change the overall results in anyway since its so rare for it to happen

median prism
# past fable Its a weird niche timing issue with how it refreshes before so it skips that bit...

yea i noticed that too and was messing around it and i think that's the actual issue, getting like 40k dps by not refreshing rupture if debuff will remain until around when flag is off cd (at least i'm pretty sure that's what i did just kinda messing around with apl first time today)

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7k4iz9PRhbxGa3bwqkKvLC

Raidbots
Advanced Sim - Ravstlth - 4,721,491 DPS - Raidbots
#

this also makes the previous situation more or less impossible i think

weak ibex
#

The majority of the gain was changing the symbols condition rupture>=30 to rupture.ticking

rugged solar
#

👍 would need to investigate more to see how it behaves in diffrent fight style and talent setup but nice find

weak ibex
#

appreciate it fuu

low breach
weak ibex
#

in symbols

#

then removal of the s2 tier set pooling thing was 0.3%

weak ibex
low breach
#

ty

past fable
rugged solar
#

oh, did miss the commit then

#

found it ^^

weak ibex
#

the s2 tier set yes but that was 0.3% gain

#

2.3% was from changing the rupture >=30s on symbols conditions to .ticking instead

#

I don't think that's in that commit

past fable
#

Its not, but its been solved in a different way by changing the rupture lines

#

The way yours did it was a big loss in anything besides dslice

weak ibex
#

I see yeah !

#

thanks got it now

weak ibex
# 
# Maintenance Finisher
actions.finish+=/rupture,if=!variable.skip_rupture&(!dot.rupture.ticking|refreshable|buff.flagellation_buff.up&!buff.symbols_of_death.up&variable.targets<=2)&target.time_to_die-remains>6&cooldown.flagellation.remains>=10

actions.finish+=/rupture,cycle_targets=1,if=!variable.skip_rupture&!variable.priority_rotation&target.time_to_die>=(2*combo_points)&refreshable&variable.targets>=2```

Kinda edge case I guess, but these two are weird on two targets no? You won't rupture on main target with flag <=10 seconds, but you will rupture on the second target with flag <=10 which effectively cleaves to ur main target anyways, so the result is the same as pressing on main target.
cinder root
# 
actions.build=shuriken_storm,if=variable.coup_up&(buff.shadow_blades.up|buff.premeditation.up|variable.targets>=4)&!used_for_danse

actions.build+=/backstab,if=(talent.unseen_blade|variable.targets<=2)&(buff.shadow_dance.remains>7&(buff.premeditation.up|buff.shadow_blades.up)&!used_for_danse|!variable.stealth&buff.shadow_blades.up)

This change seems to be a 0.5% increase starting with 4 targets (when using Rotten talents), and 1.1% increase at 10 targets
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iGRBnfJtcEUatQjRhhXpnd (4T)

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mJ4KBMxFLLaJ836hg7zUWF (10T)

Raidbots
Advanced Sim - Default - 13,808,502 DPS - Raidbots
Raidbots
Advanced Sim - Default - 24,803,036 DPS - Raidbots
#

Sims neutral on singletarget

rugged solar
#

interessting, thanks for sharing

cinder root
#

Something I haven't tested and donno how to test, is whether or not it could be a gain to Symbols->Storm->Dance->sectec->... to preserve premed buff for backstab but applying FW to all targets (with the added effect of a tiny bit more ShT stacks as well)

#

for rotten only ofc

cinder root
#

Abovementioned opener seems to be a huge increase on 3+ targets but fall off hard between 7-8 targets, to then loop around and become an increase at 9+ targets again. I don't know if there's something I'm not accounting for though:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5sFivhGqx7BcLgphvrw4TF (3 targets | +5.8%)

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ddhzPwutAVMUvoSejkFZ32 (5 targets | +2.6%)

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/koSH5hUP9W9ZVHvAca8cfz (8 targets | -0.7%)

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kdQiLVvrv5LwCtmpnaojaq (9 targets | +3.0%)

#

(when Rotten gaming)

# 
actions.opener=sequence,shadowstrike:flagellation:rupture:symbols_of_death:shuriken_storm:shadow_dance:shadow_blades:secret_technique```
past fable
cinder root
#

prob a bigger increase on front-facing targets like fractillus with rotten though

weak ibex
#

Minimal but a really free 0.2% gain in aoe build

brave prawn
#

Cringe macro gaming and dance gcds with 4p writeup:

disclaimer: these are NOT macros intended to save keybinds nor are they recommended for the average sub gamer since they add (mostly) unnecessary complexity and more keybinds. I am moving the writeup/discussion here since I don't want unnecessary confusion with all the new people learning the spec thinking generalized macros are good.

as some of you may have noticed, it can be much harder to get all 8 gcds in your second dance of blades with the new 4p. normally, you have at most 1 second of leeway to fit all 8 globals in dance, reduced by 0.2s for each coup cast (since it has a 1.2s gcd) which is plenty for late spellqueues, slightly melee downtime, whatever. Most good sub logs I have looked at are all still manually casting dance -> backstab, with a natural delay between the dance/backstab of about 200ms. With this delay added, you still have 800ms of leeway to get all your gcds in. It can get a bit dicey if you need to instachain dance offgcd in blades (or else, your sectec clones/big final coup hit will fall outside dance and do 0 dmg), resulting in 16-20 seconds of burst instead of 8-12 where you can only have 800ms of delay total. However, this was still fine last tier, since 800ms or 400ms (with 2 coups) was plenty.

With new 4p, however, it is not uncommon to get 4 coups in blades, thus costing you 800ms of your leeway due to the extended coup gcd. With the additional 200ms delay from manual casting dance, you are guaranteed to drop a gcd in your second dance of blades if you need to instachain.

To counteract this, we can wait for our gcd to complete and use a macro to instacast dance/symbols/gcd at the same time, thus eliminating the 200ms manual input delay and allowing 8 gcds in our second dance of blades even when instachaining. I recommend 3 macros that you bind in additional to your binds. This is the backstab variant:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null 
/cast Backstab```

Create a second/third macro replacing backstab with shadowstrike or sectec to cover all the variants of the first gcd of the blades dance, wait for gcd to end, press the macro, enjoy more leeway in your cds.

Also please fix coup blizzard ty this should not be an issue to even be solved
fickle shore
#

Put sod and dance on the GCD to fix it blizzard

analog island
brave prawn
#

you have to spam it a bit

#

it doesnt work as well as the backstab one and theres still gonna be some delay

#

what can you do

#

stance delay Shrug

analog island
#

at that point hit strike and carry on instead of another bind

brave prawn
#

fair its the least useful one

analog island
#

I’m assuming Sectech is fine.

brave prawn
#

I have yet to test the sectec one since I do flag rupture 99.9% of the time

#

It's just there for dimensius burn

analog island
#

just fix coup ffs. wtb a dev

#

Anyways. Nice write up.

brave prawn
rugged solar
#

this was removed out of the sudden in one of the ptr cycles

#

and because it was not apperent why it was gone, the solution was to fix it by just making dance not castable for the duration

#

which was with hard coded durations and lead to bugs down the line

#

so from my pov, any spell with multiple charges should have this mechanism, but its likely lost somewhere in development cycles

#

towards gcds, coup should not have a 1.2 sec gcd

#

the problem with lost casts is mostly a consequence of multiple coup casts during one shadow dance

#

what makes things worse, many probably won't notice because they have good hardware

#

is the technical side of things did get worse too

#

WoW has multiple memory leaks now and many of the effects are taxing on hardware for no reason

#

combine this with the current trand of raid weakauras and e.g. your setup which would be possible to render the game on at least 24-30 fps, suddenly comes to a crawl

#

means input lag and visual feedback is decreased too

cinder root
rugged solar
#

i never tried that, does that work?

cinder root
rugged solar
#

you could probably use bonusbar:1 instead

#

stance is usually less consistent

cinder root
#

I use /castsequence [stance:2] reset=stance:2 Backstab, null

#

But it resets 8 seconds in, probably because it’s a new dance that carries over macabre stacks

rugged solar
#

tho what is the purpose

#

you never rly use dance more than once

cinder root
#

To not press backstab more than once

low breach
cinder root
#

No clue how it's implemented though

low breach
obsidian ibex
night jetty
#

In what situations are you using that?

rugged solar
#

the idea discussed is basically to create seperate macros for shadow dance

#

so you have a macro for:
dance + backstab
dance + evis
dance + secret
...

#

the problem it tries to solve is to not love globals in shadow dance

#

by making sure you cast your very first attack as fast as possible

cinder root
#

How meaningful is this gain effectively?

brave prawn
#

A bit difficult to model in sim because the robot doesn’t make these errors

#

Macro goal is to avoid human induced delay

#

But losing a gcd in dance in blades is bad and not having important spells hit in dance is also bad

#

So it’s probably a decent gain

obsidian ibex
night jetty
#

I usually don't have these three skills align with each other

#

If I have flag windows more than 90 seconds apart, I could see it for myself

obsidian ibex
#

I don’t see the value of using cold blood outside of dance

night jetty
#

Sorry, maybe I misspoke

#

I meant that usually I don't use cb and dance at the same time during my flag window

#

Sometimes, when flags are more than 90 seconds apart and you have enough leeway to use a cb in between (with dance of course), I could see a usecase for your macro

#

I just don't have dance, cb and sectec align often enough - will review a vod or two to see if I'm missing something

obsidian ibex
#

If you use this macro while already in dance, it ignores the shadow dance line

cinder root
obsidian ibex
cinder root
#

Donno if that’s worth the trouble though

analog island
#

adding dance to the cb sectech macro is literally going to keep the macro the same and just ingore dance if already in it. just need to make sure you have sod active already, unless you add SoD to it and then truly treat it as a spereate bind

cinder root
ivory kestrel
#

damn unseen stocks are that high eh

#

kinda han an inkling

cinder root
#

Just a suggestion, don't know if you agree, but I think the priority rotation variable shouldn't affect whether you spread Ruptures or not, since I can't remember if I've ever ignored Rupture spreading + the debate when talking about priority rotation typically boils down to Evis vs BP. When being more lax with the variable, the gap between Evis and BP is much smaller:

(Old prio variable implementation on 3 targets: -1.2%)
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/13YWMbBrB3NBjzLF8jUhi1

(New implementation: neutral)
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aUdS8diBfJJo43Y1nKHfon

(Dungeonslice prioritizing Evis over BP until 8 targets: -0.2%)
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/u8tCMVqZtnxVfmZMqsmsr6

Raidbots
Advanced Sim - Default - 10,764,307 DPS - Raidbots
Raidbots
Advanced Sim - Default - 10,766,391 DPS - Raidbots
Raidbots
Advanced Sim - Default - 8,795,097 DPS - Raidbots
cinder root
night jetty
#

What exactly did you change about the rupture logic?

latent sonnet
#

~2.8% dps loss to main target

cinder root
cinder root
oak crystal
#

Hey, I have a weird (maybe stupid) question. What's the formula for calculating Eviscerate damage? I thought it was like this:

AP (Agility) * AP coef * CP * Stratagem (1,1) * Mastery * Vers

But the formula doesn't match the game tooltip. For example with naked char:
Agility - 17648
AP coef - 0.28
CP - 7
Mastery - 19,6%
Vers - 0
So:

17648*0,28*7*1,1*1,196=45507

But ingame tooltip - 53817, what did I miss?

past fable
#

AP is agility+weapon dps*6

#

(or atleast im fairly sure its times 6, but its using mainhand dps)

oak crystal
#

hm, thanks, but:
Agility - 21798
WDPS - 4716 (723 weap)
Mastery - 21.2%
Vers - 0

21798+(4716*6)*0,28*7*1,1*1,212=131202

ingame tooltip - 154741

coarse laurel
#

Spec aura and any passives would be applied as well

oak crystal
#

Hi, now in the sim, the shd+ss opener is pressing at the same time. However, in the game, we can't use a macro on shd+ss (and we won't be able to without a macro) because of the switch stance. Thus, we always have 0.2 seconds of delay with such an opener, unlike with a sim. Therefore, in theory, the sim needs less haste than we do in the game to finish off the last gcd. Am I right?

#

or is there a way to press shd+ss at the same time in the game again?

rugged solar
#

it depends on latency but there can be a delay

#

if you use dance off gcd even higher

#

if you want to sim with a delay for the first action you can put
⁨actions+=/wait,sec=0.2,if=prev.shadow_dance⁩
in the action list

analog island
#

That delay is there no matter latency with strike (I’m assuming this is the SS they’re referring to, and not storm).

rugged solar
analog island
#

I’m at 6ms to server. I’ve never seen it lower. I actually assumed this was part of the apl kekdog

#

maybe more relevant now than before with variable dance lengths

rugged solar
#

the sim assumes a certain input latency, it does not introduce artificial delays on top

coarse laurel
#

Aura lag is typically around that range

#

Not just about latency but server ticks in handling aura applications

#

I could possibly put the aura delay into SimC for this

oak crystal
past fable
#

The simple solution to this is just to use a dance+storm macro as deathstalker

#

Whenever you enter dance at low cp

#

The loss of using storm is outweighed by not having the delay

oak crystal
#

however, this is just a comment on the current apl

past fable
#

But trickster doesnt want to start dance at low cp anyway, so you can just use dance+sectech instead

oak crystal
#

before df we can just use simple shd/ss macro, eh (

rugged solar
rugged solar
rugged solar
past fable
coarse laurel
#

Out of curiosity does this work both directions? What happens if you try to queue Shadowstrike when technically Dance is finished but the stance lag happens?

turbid pulsar
#

it does this weird lag where the animation + sound on strike goes off, but the spell does not

coarse laurel
#

Ok

rugged solar
fickle lava
rugged solar
#

ye that was my assumption too

#

that you can have faster than 0.2,i haven't looked at midnight logs

#

but if 0.2 is the typical delay, it makes sense to still have it

fickle lava
#

its even lower, though I am gonna assume that is just the log not being 100% accurate since there are some gcds that are slightly less than a second after the previous one which should not be possible

image.png
rugged solar
#

my theory wasn't that far off if thats a recent log

#

the question remains how reliably you can get strike off this fast

analog island
fickle lava
#

It mine, there was no dance active

#

specifically tried to look for one that was not spell queued and had more than 1 sec before the previous gcd

analog island
#

are you using a macro?

fickle lava
#

yes

#

but I have to spam it

#

1 press doesn't work

analog island
#

maybe lust make the stealth bar swap faster kekdog

fickle lava
#

don't think its tied to the actual bar swap when its in a macro, just the game needs to recognize you are in stealth for shadowstrike to be available

#

(the macro is not on the bar that swaps)

analog island
#

Yeah. Just where the tick hits I’d assume. I’d be curious the of casts you did and how many were .1 or less

fickle lava
#

I did look through the other kills, most seem to be in the range of 0.1 - 0.13 which would be like ping or spell queue difference

analog island
#

recall what you’ve got spellque set to?

fickle lava
#

I have it at 140

#

supposedly a longer one should help with this

rugged solar
#

default is 400, i usually use 250

turbid pulsar
#

i play with around 80-120

coarse laurel
#

Tbf log timestamps can also be off by as much as 100ms fairly often so I wouldn’t rely on logs too much for that. Would really need to test in-game or with videos or something probably.

rugged solar
#

can test with video earliest monday

golden coral
#

Its always spell queue, just human error

rugged solar
# rugged solar can test with video earliest monday

I recorded Gameplay on Beta.
I included:

  • The wow combat log (top left)
  • A ability timeline (bottom middle of the screen, via 3rd party addon, so probably has some lag)
  • A key press overlay (3rd party tool, top right of the screen, should have little/no delay or lag)
    The shortcoming is the ping to beta servers
    The first 4 recordings don't show shadow dance in the combat log, but i added them to this message just to have more reference material
#

given that discord does not embed mkv(and obs was set up to record mkv on the pc i borrowed for the experiment),
the last recording converted to mp4:

#

going from testing, it seems like the 200 ms estimate is not too far off

image.png
#

it is kind of interesting to see that the lag is seemingly higher than the cast delay between dance and strike, so i probably need to test again on retail to see how lag impacts this

image.png
rugged solar
#

doing the same on retail, to reduce lag impact.

image.png
#

first recording has a 130 ms delay instead of ~200

image.png
#

checking a 2nd video, it seems very similar

#

the recording, if anyone else wants to import it to their video editor (i only uploaded one video, not all 4)

#

The videos are recorded in 60 fps

#

which means the quantisation is ~17 ms per frame

#

i made 4 recordings, the diffrence was at most 1-2 frames

#

which means, the variation was at maximum 30 ms

#

The ping in the test is still somewhat higher than some players in here have with ~50-70 on retail

#

the result seems to be:
You get a ~120 ms delay added with a variance of somewhere around 10-20%.

#

the delay can go up if you increase ping, like by playing in a different region (beta, which is >100 ping)
increasing the cast delay to ~200ms (~ 60% increase).

#

This however confirms there to be no fixed delay,
latency, server tick rates and sqw could effect the result.
If anyone wants to replicate similar:

  • I used This tool to show key presses
  • There are multiple addons for ability timelines, enhance qol or wildu .
  • Don't forget to enable Spell casts in the combat log to show shadow dance
  • I used Resolve to analyze the timings, but any modern video editor or even vlc should work.
  • the follwíng macro:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shadowstrike
mellow quartz
#

anyone happen to have a 90 profile/sim they can dm by chance, want to look into a few things and can't nab a string from beta atm

crimson vault
#

this dance preme is triggering a true AA refund of cp that should not happen.

image.png
#

@coarse laurel not sure if I should pin you here but potent BP talent not affect BP clone; not sure a bug or a intended design while in sim it increase

#

and DD deep dagger also not increase BP clone damage.

past fable
#

So surely they flip it back to working and then stop touching it

rugged solar
#

@crimson vault i looked at the apl changes, and there seems to be a lot of conditions which aren't worth persuing.

rugged solar
#

The following changes seemed to be a net positive after some apl testing:

actions+=/variable,name=shd_cp,value=combo_points<=2&talent.deathstalkers_mark|combo_points>=6
This is roughly what we already had, it just seems to remain better to start dance with low cp on Deathstalker.

actions+=/call_action_list,name=build,if=variable.stealth|energy>60
Being slightly more careful with energy outside of dance seems to be benefitial. (only using builders when above 60 energy, so marginal pooling)

actions.cds+=/shadow_dance,if=!variable.stealth&variable.shd_cp&energy>=30&(cooldown.secret_technique.ready&(cooldown.shadow_blades.remains>=9|talent.deathstalkers_mark)|buff.shadow_blades.up&cooldown.secret_technique.duration>=18)|fight_remains<=10
This isn't based on your modification, but i looked at the dance use some more (after identifying it as crucial part of dps diffrences) and this simpler version seemed to improve on the default. There might be some more room for improvements. Bigger changes in haste values could impact this condition, so maybe something we find more improvements on in the future.

actions+=/shadowstrike,if=buff.darkest_night.up&buff.shadow_techniques.stack>=5&!buff.ancient_arts.up
The Apex optimization seems to be not worth it for trickster in the sim anymore, so the condition could be simplified.
This is something we need to keep an eye on especially during early patch cycles where implementation in simc is less stable or bugfixes in simc and game are common.

The total diffrence of the change was a up to 1-1.5% dps gain. (puts the single target sim profile at roughly 97k dps)

chilly girder
#

goremaws is straight ass good lord

image.png
rugged solar
#

it is

#

the talent is designed to solve a problem the spec hasn't had in years

past fable
chilly girder
#

it should be illegal for an active ability to be this bad for this long

rugged solar
#

it seemed like the dev team run out of time

#

and then just grapped the old talent to fix the time problem

#

there was an attempt to fix it by reducing the cooldown

chilly girder
#

going into midnight you mean?

rugged solar
#

nope

chilly girder
#

yeah thats what i mean lol

rugged solar
#

it is shit since they introduced it

#

since df s3

chilly girder
#

like i get that they ran out of time when they originally added it but like

#

there has been so much time to fix it since

rugged solar
#

there are other similar talents too

chilly girder
#

tuning aside tbh, its just the design that bothers me the most

rugged solar
#

like lingering

chilly girder
#

yeah i guess like, i hold actives at a higher standard personally

#

but for sure

rugged solar
#

this is similar criminal

image.png
chilly girder
#

idk why they add these kind of talents

#

its so useless

rugged solar
#

i can explain both

chilly girder
#

they added one for shadow this expansion

rugged solar
#

lingering is an attempt to shift damage outside of cooldowns

chilly girder
#

which im fine with but like, these are talents. why would you choose to buff dmg out of cds instead of buffing dmg in cds if given the choice

rugged solar
#

to make things less punishing

#

it seems like a internal conflict

chilly girder
#

hm yeah

rugged solar
#

where one side wants to have damage outside and inside of cooldowns to be good

#

and the other side does try to keep the core of the damage spread focused on cooldowns

#

most answers we got ended up

#

as a statement of the design team knowing better than players

chilly girder
#

yeah lot of hubris around that team

rugged solar
#

it could also be based on pvp

chilly girder
#

true

rugged solar
#

there is always the problem of keeping pvp close enough to pve to make the jump to the game mode easy

#

towards goremaws

#

it was introduced back in Legion

#

the spec was very diffrent designed back then

#

you basically had very frequent and short shadow dances

#

and a maintainance buff you could only maintain during shadow dance

#

this maintainance buff had a hefty energy cost

#

which basically ment, you would need to drop one ability of your already short shadow dance cooldown when maintaining it

chilly girder
#

honestly i think its just these talent trees have exploded their workload without compensating with more devs or whatever

rugged solar
#

so goremaws made sense

#

you had a lot of energy deficits

#

you can bridge or help with

#

but legion is now well

#

nearly 10 years old

#

class design shifted massively

chilly girder
#

ouch i feel old

rugged solar
#

i started doing TC in legion more or less

#

so ye

chilly girder
#

ye same

rugged solar
#

Basically my first bigger contribution was to write a apl from scratch mid xpac with the subtlety rework

#

i broke a lot of rotational concepts back then^^

#

tho to not drift too far off the topic

#

energy was always a constraint solved with additional systems over time

chilly girder
#

right

rugged solar
#

so in legion, the talent made a lot of sense

#

in bfa, it would probably still made sense

#

e.g. in bfa

#

you later had ressource generation from the azerit essence stuff

#

the modernized versions, don't have these energy problems anymore

#

in part becuaase soo many energy talents got added in the talent tree rework in DF/TWW

#

this is why goremaws loses all of its benefits

#

the talent isn't bad by design, it has a lot going on

#

energy is just something that is constrained outside of cooldowns

#

and because damage is focused on cooldownns

#

it can only either:

  • lead to ressource waste (redundant)
  • increase energy economy outside of cooldowns (slightly more damage outside of cooldowns is irrelevant)
rugged solar
coarse laurel
crimson vault
past fable
#

@crimson vault I have unfortunately read your lines carefully, the cold blood bit wasnt talking specifically about your line, it was talking about it in general.

crimson vault
#

and that wasn't for a two-builders in a row in dance anyway.

#

and that's simply not a big gain if we look at numbers but a natural action to take if we dont have CB while Silient is on.

past fable
crimson vault
#

Oh yeah, just type "shit" when you're frustrated? I like this attitude in this channel and for Rogues!

past fable
crimson vault
#

I just wonder if no one checks the original APL and how many Rogues are going to run their game and life and time guided by some "shit" talking person.

#

When fuu and I are now discussing about dance cooldowns and haste thresholds, what are you doing?

#

just ignore my contributions?

#

deny my works?

#

Even Whispyr respects my works.

#

not like you

rugged solar
#

we fond some minor changes in the end which is a net positive.
A lot changes with the sim implementation, so things might change over time.
Might be that some refinments or adjustments could be done in the near future, especially if we keep finding bugs in game, get bugfixes or updated implementations in simulationcraft.

past fable
# crimson vault When fuu and I are now discussing about dance cooldowns and haste thresholds, wh...

Ive literally written the entire APL for several seasons now, including this one. I constantly check stuff but this beta+preseason especially has had a lot of random changes on the backend which means lots of bugs and APL lines have been flip flopping around in how effective they are. This in turn leads to stuff like pooling sht stacks for dance (which was already PR:ed to the default APL when your post was made btw), to now be good, when it wasnt around a week ago.

As for your contributions, practically everytime you rear your head into this discord you are either saying things which are demonstrably false, and then getting upset at me when i correct you or you just straightup insult me like you just did by implying nobody ever checks or works on the APL. Among all the line changes you posted only the Dance adjustment was really relevant, the remaining lines are not even a gain in simcraft, so i had to sift through them one by one to filter out which one was actually contributing to the gains you were posting, and then it also turns out that its also really bad for AoE and Deathstalker, so it has to be adjusted for that aswell. Overall it takes A LOT of time and work for me and/or Fuu to figure out what part of your post was not completely irrelevant, which is why (among the previous reasons) that you are getting such an attitude.

We are not against you "contributing ideas" at all, but the way you are handling it leads to more work for me and ultimately isnt nearly as helpful as you seem to picture it yourself.

crimson vault
#

I've pushed the line to 96502 and now fuu optimised it to 96992 when it was at 95xxx range. how is that demostrably false?

#

if that's too many works, and then later fuu gets it into a better position/state, then that's required work

past fable
#

Please read through my message carefully

crimson vault
#

I've no idea why you believe for example the sht preserve was done correctly as it isn't until I added stop cast evis 3s before dance

#

and for other "not" gain lines, I've already stated it in my original post saying they're not big gains

past fable
crimson vault
#

however, that's some natural action to take as well as the shiv cast, which could be used for example when we holding resources for a "debuff" or "damage boost" window in fight.

#

if that's good and you handled it, you would simply say it is already in the latest APL for example.
and also I wont see fuu' new APL still using it.
and I also explained it later to you that " it is not about sht preserving, but also linked to energy control so dance's cp condition does not delay it"

past fable
#

You are literally not reading the message you are responding to

crimson vault
#

I dont know. that could be a language barrier here. I dont understand why there is something good and you wont say that's good but just say it is either demostrably false or what? you insulted me first, by saying that's shit. and that's it.

#

I never said all of them are all good. all I know is here is 0.1% and there is 0.1%, so we might get more if we push further.

rugged solar
#

What eleem means is, a lot of testing runs into the apl, so every line change is carefuly put.
This is diffrent from how you contribute

crimson vault
#

I understand that. and I already said some of those changes are not significant.

rugged solar
#

e.g. your apl change was a very locally optimized problem

image.png
crimson vault
#

I've no idea about this -65%

rugged solar
#

this was me just plugin in the apl on a deathstalker sim

#

and the amount of change is often high

crimson vault
#

yes, because I wasn't doing deathstalker

#

as you once guided me here, do things in small steps and one by one.

rugged solar
#

so me or eleem or in some cases both of us, need to read through all of the lines and surgically remove parts to find out what actually matters

#

this is fairly time consuming

#

e.g. as eleem mentioned, out of all line changes, only one change was benefitial

#

and it was the shadow dance line

crimson vault
#

That's why I'd prefer more communication before everyone just getting into sim every line checking.

rugged solar
#

which ironically was so convolluted in your sim that i threw it out entirely and added in a custom logic i had tested in the past

#

the remaining changes had low impact

#

some of your changes even reduced the impact of others

crimson vault
#

it would be a very fast response if you ask "do you have gain for each change?" and I'd just tell first two are 0.1% and the big one is the dance and probably the holding. so you can sort out some priority.

#

problem needs to be identified and then simple solutions and then better solutions.
you cannot just say that's shit because it took you much time in 4 or 6 points while onlye one in your value that's worthy.

rugged solar
#

so, we are happy for contributions

#

however

#

it would be nicer if more effort was put into testing the changes

#

this still means we are happy for any contribution

#

just that expectations need to be set diffrent, when the time effort to go over change is high

#

it might take longer for us to response or find out causes of damage gains

crimson vault
#

and for example, for the "forcing clone" strike line, it has its value especially in opening + lust + blade situation
and I've tested it in many situations, the major difference is the increase of Coup cast
and I think that's due to the fact of haste lift our refresh rate of UB so more builders can catch that

rugged solar
#

the apex line is very wild, simc updates and bugfixes heavily altered how good it is

#

which is what eleem mentioned

crimson vault
rugged solar
#

he tested it the other day and asked me to look over it too

#

oh wait, i think that was the shadow dance line

#

that one changed noticable

#

the apl change we pushed recently moved the line to always start with high cp

crimson vault
#

because that's a lot of typing and I have limited input character limit. an initial discussion on some new findings are important rather than just start testing.

rugged solar
#

which was by the time we put it in no diffrence or a gain

#

^ this however seemed to change again with the mentioned bugfixes

#

and now its a more varied line where both low and high cp is valuable

#

because thats the best value for both aoe and st

#

things like this take a time and testing^^

#

some of your ideas are rly good

#

e.g. its slightly benefitial to do the small pooling

#

for backstab

#

but these changes are burried within a lot of changes which don't do any good

#

or potentially even harm

#

you basically try to do too many things at once

#

and sometimes lose sight of the goal

#

again, this is no criticque, you can keep giving feedback/input the way you did

crimson vault
#

tbh, there is a transparency and update issue on this APL thing. I'm not saying it needs a certain change, but for example, almost every seaon I gets in before rais start by 1. looking at APL sample casts 2. ask for latest APL 3. either identify the problem or try to fix a problem if I think that's big.
So this time, I was monitoring fuu's spreadsheet and got the APL and check things in sample cast and then look at codes and identify problems for example no use of storm for CB, but that's maybe small gain, no use of shiv, that's totally okay because that's probably very conditional, and then dance delay noticed due to energy or extra casts of evis and backstabs and then dance not aligned

rugged solar
#

i or eleem will take a look and filter, if we have time

#

just expect us to throw out lines that won't be a gain ^^

crimson vault
#

it is simply how I have vision of gain compared to the sample casts and then compared with the APL. It is not ever in your APL work loop and then that's the reason I understand that and also post changes for you to see if you've already checked or not.

#

I never force anyone to add any line, it is for a value to think if we could have a CB before dance and if we dont have it and then we check that could be a gain if we instead of using another backstab and switch for Storm, which is rarely cast but that's a very natural thing to add and to do and that's maybe some minimal gain. and I have no idea why Eleem is so against this.

rugged solar
#

e.g. here is one example of what i mean, this was my initial try to just see which block of changes had impact

image.png
past fable
rugged solar
#

i ahd to re-run and re-order it to make sure the right block is taken

image.png
#

tboth sims have diffrent top results

#

one is 0.7%

#

which is the gain you have when putting in your apl

#

the other is 0.9

#

which is means the 0.9 part has not all changes and beats the 0.7% gain

#

this is what i tried to line out

#

the amount of change you did is high

crimson vault
rugged solar
#

and just a simple check like this, which takes 3-4 combination simulations

#

found out a problem space of an optimization/line change which lowers the output

#

(means its not benefitial)

past fable
#

Idk perhaps its just a language barrier

crimson vault
#

I didn't say you "not reading your lines" due to you said that's not relevant. I said that because you believed for example two builders in a row and that's not the line.

#

I know that's minimal gain or not even a gain in massive iterations. that's not a problem.

#

If you say, that's not a big thing or gain or that's not relevant, that will never trigger me saying you not reading my post or lines.

#

however, if you say that storm line would trigger two builders in a row in dance, that's not what the line works and I'd say you didn't read.

past fable
#

Yeah its either just a language barrier or we have differing veiws of reality i guess

crimson vault
#

So it is never an emotional trigger for me when you say a line change is not relevant. I think it is relevant to a degree maybe in action or practice and I know it is not a numerical gain if we look at the final %.

rugged solar
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Think its just a diffrence in opinion, storm in dance overall seems not that relevant right now

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there could be practical application for doing it

crimson vault
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in dance storm is qutie a trade for the CB on Coup in exchange for a strike. that line if my memory is right is a limited gain.

rugged solar
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a small follow up on this

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actions+=/shadowstrike,if=buff.darkest_night.up&buff.shadow_techniques.stack>=5&!buff.ancient_arts.up
Removing the apex optimization seemed good, but there is more to it.
I had a short conversation with lametoso in dm's and after some apl testing, it seems like the apex optimization still holds up during bloodlust, the impact is low, as you see in the image attached.
The change is straight forward:
actions+=/shadowstrike,if=(buff.darkest_night.up|buff.bloodlust.up)&buff.shadow_techniques.stack>=5&!buff.ancient_arts.up
(basically just adds the optiization back during bloodlust)

image.png
rugged solar
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There seems to be more room for optimizatuons around Shadow dance after this change, especially the 2nd part i haven't looked at much for the post above. I highlighted the part below.```ansi
actions.cds+=/shadow_dance,if=!variable.stealth&variable.shd_cp&energy>=30&(cooldown.secret_technique.ready&(cooldown.shadow_blades.remains>=9|talent.deathstalkers_mark)|buff.shadow_blades.up&cooldown.secret_technique.duration>=18)|fight_remains<=10

rugged solar
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^ we missed this

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adding a stealth check to it is a small damage gain. The line change is:

actions.cds+=/shadowmeld,if=!variable.stealt&henergy>=40&combo_points.deficit>=3

rugged solar
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Fallowing up on this:

Misfosster:
actions.cds+=/shadowmeld,if=energy>=40&!variable.stealth&combo_points.deficit>=7&buff.shadow_techniques.stack>=5
Message: #subtlety message

It seems to add 0.1% dps by adding apex constraints, the diffrence however is extremely minimal, so probably not worth the extra complexity

⏩ Simulation

image.png
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^ @cinder root Unsure if you watch this channel, i just reference you so you see the change documented

cinder root
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Might work better as a means to get higher FW uptime at that point, especially from the front

image.png
rugged solar
cinder root
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But I guess there’s not long enough between our dances that it realistically only boosts one finisher or so

rugged solar
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its worse even if you only use it to apply it

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so seems like the uptime is good enough

cinder root
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Ye

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Meld doesn’t give silent storm right

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Prob not with this wording

IMG_0146.png
ivory kestrel
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you need to actually stealth yes so only on dungeons etc.

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you would also get premed that way

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no raid or dungeon boss combat application on that

cinder root
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Maybe Strike->Evis->Vanish->Strike->Storm->Blades+Dance+Sectec opener could make sense

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Wait nvm that’s not even needed

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You have when opening from stealth anyway

analog island
cinder root
crimson vault
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@rugged solar I'm not sure about this concept but we might want to look a bit about 814 haste with Troll for a 3 SecTech play with lust and troll racial for a good amount of potion boost. I'll put this low priority and check it out later.

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adding storm will probably be added in a late version due to current working progress and Storm+CB's low numerical impact.

valid robin
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Thank god for Lament 🙏🏻 The only one trying to find weird shit for the spec 🤩

cinder root
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kinda disrespectful to all the other tc’s no? xd

rugged solar
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Lets not fight, there is a lot of room for micro optimizations and any of them can be valuable.

rugged solar
low breach
cinder root
crimson vault
crimson vault
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One thing I think we should try to do is to set fluffy_pillow's type to something else, right now sigil hunt's haste might cause SecTech cooldown unalignment.

ivory kestrel
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rn in most content think we have the mastery buff or crit

crimson vault
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as far as I know the immediate solely boss raid is a type it would provide haste, no?

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and I'm talking about influence to sim

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or maybe a code to set it to provide mastery?

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I think right now it is a bit of random

past fable
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Its distributed roughly dependant on the bosses in the raids type. So if 1/9th of the bosses would trigger vers it would have the vers buff 1/9th of the time

crimson vault
valid robin
mellow quartz
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me, replacing random words in the apl to see what happens

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(it breaks)

valid robin
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I meant more like playing the game a lot and trying stuff

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That are ”bad in simc”

mellow quartz
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has been kinda fun trying out ways to apply the apex

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or force it in diff situations

valid robin
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Sub would have been dogtier in some patches if people just followed the conventional most logical way to play

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And unfortunately, people are still anti experimenting

rugged solar
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I am all for experimenting, throw a hot nerdy idea at me i can test on the weekend.

polar atlas
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Is the purpose of sims to find the hypothetical max dps of a perfect machine input like a tas or to emulate a player with human reactions doing a perfect rotation?

rugged solar
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No

past fable
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Mostly emulating

rugged solar
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Basically, the goal is to emulate possible gameplay and find optimizations which are doable.

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Simulations are always designed to be doable in game, we even emulate input lag, etc.

polar atlas
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Is it possible to account for like a 0.1-0.2s delay at the beginning of shadow dance to emulate the micro missed time in shadow dance gcds?

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Or I guess a better question is can a human achieve the same input window as the sims during a dance window

rugged solar
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^ this is one example, where i ended up screen recording to make sure the input delay after shadow dance was correctly represented

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so what you ask for is exactly that

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its already in the sim

polar atlas
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Awesome you guys rock!

rugged solar
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if you ask for references push mentioned

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he likely talks about certain low impact optimizations which are optional for the player but can land in simulationcraft.

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Every optimization adds mental overhead, so players many times decide to skip smaller ones if it simplifies the gameplay loop

polar atlas
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Eh I’m less concerned about super niche min maxes and more about just general good rotation guidelines

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We have only so much cognitive ability during a real time encounter

rugged solar
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optimizations are always seen as opt in, especially if they require more tracking and effort for little gain

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so you could missinterprete what he wrote earlier as if there is any form of disconnect between a regular player and a theorycrafter

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in reality, its a synergy, where everyone tries to work together to find the best results

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(also tc's play the game too ^^)

polar atlas
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Only question I have regarding rotation is in this kinda niche situation where I have 5 combo points when secret technique is up and I have like sub-30 energy, is it better to backstab and then ST or just ST on 5

rugged solar
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you can use builders on 60+ energy only outside of cooldowns

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its a very small optimization

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and should avoid situations like this

polar atlas
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Ah interesting thanks!

valid robin
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Someone decides what is the most logical way to play by just looking at the talents and what would make the most sense. The entire apl is crafted based on this assumption

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Fringe or niche talents suck even more ass because the apl is not made with them in mind and requires quite a lot of work to be at least functional.

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Which is where in-game testing is the only way to actually try everything

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I used to do a lot of niche talent testing. Sitting at dummies for hours and comparing logs etc. And i just hope people still do this, because the apl is usually crafted with said assumption of what -should- be the best core talents.

cinder root
valid robin
brave prawn
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alternate talents and many different things get tested gladge

valid robin
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As in, new ways to play the predetermined core talents. But not huge shifts

crimson vault
ivory kestrel
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this was something i was thinking before sleep but maybe a second haste trinket to use after guidon+blades that also covers 2 dances might be decent if you can't have alnseer for a while

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as the other passives trinkets were nothing crazy either

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think there are 2 haste on uses that are 2 mins

rugged solar
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think back, just how much time i spend optimizing non default talents

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goremaws for example

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the bottom line is, more eyes on the apl/sim is always a good option to increase chances to find something

cinder root
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also the current APL is only here because people like fuu have weeded most of the wacky ideas already

lilac crescent
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BUT I get the idea and sentiment and agree thumbsUp

valid robin
lilac crescent
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nightmare to play, very unfun

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good to tc

valid robin
rugged solar
low breach
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Sub has less buttons also apex talent is not rocket science

rugged solar
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Eleem, me and others already tested a lot of things, but as always, its easy to have bugs in game, sim, or just miss interestsing ideas.

low breach
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Also also APL is nice and all but cleave this raid and mix between aoe and st is what you need this tier

rugged solar
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Lamentosos def. tries some very specific min/maxes, which is appreciated.

valid robin
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I just don’t think nerds should be met with resistance when they are testing weird shit. This is why the discussion even exists (from my end).

rugged solar
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Even if they end up not relevant in the end and dismissed.

rugged solar
valid robin
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People that play a fuckton and hit dummies a lot can discover stuff that’s impossible to find by just tweaking the apl slightly

rugged solar
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in fact most of the time, we just try things

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e.g. i remember one of the discussions around single dance use, which lead to one dance builds surparsing double dance at the start of DF

rugged solar
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its in both directions

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sometimes its better/easier to find optimizations in the sim than apply them in game too

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optimizations can also get oddly specific

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thats just the nature of narrowing down the gain and only applying them when needed

valid robin
rugged solar
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i might missremeber