subtlety

[swift tinsel]

bc I want them to be like a pixel separated lol

[plush roost]

Does wang also have energy

[warm marlin]

it's a bit scuffed though

[swift tinsel]

ye it has energy

[plush roost]

Ah ofc it is

Its awang

[warm marlin]

hes working on it but sometimes the settings just disappear

[plush roost]

(Jk love u awang)

[swift tinsel]

yeah super funny lmao

if he gets stuff sorted tho its gonna be banger

[warm marlin]

or it blocks your escape button from functioning

[swift tinsel]

I tried editing the config .lua to bridge the gap but wasn't able to get it to shrink

lmao does it really

haven't experienced that yet

[warm marlin]

#outlaw message

[plush roost]

Awang prepping for his VR mmo youre trapped in forever

[swift tinsel]

that's fucking hilarious

[chrome palm]

Wangcoded W

[old spindle]

when it comes to Sub, is Nelf still a damage benifit or has it balanced out since the changes?

[vale pine]

its not that big anymore

so not the "best" possible

[chrome palm]

There was never much benefit to using nelf racial for sub

“Restealthing” as requires you to drop combat for 6s

[vale pine]

it was quite handy in keys

[old spindle]

👍 was just wondering if i should consider race changing. ill stick to human 😄

[chrome palm]

Oh for utility but that isn’t to do with sub I mean

[shrewd lantern]

i dont think nelf was ever the best

from a pure dps pov

[chrome palm]

The outlaw/assa changes did make meld meaningless for their damage, though

[shrewd lantern]

human unironically is probably one of the better races

well and dwarf

[old spindle]

ye. outlaw losing all stealth shuffle and the tweaks to ass, i imagine only using it if i drop my mark

[winter harbor]

holy changes man. Sub is legit easier to play than BM hunter now and it's not even close. I'm 100% confident I could mythic raid with this playing with a DDR mat.

[shrewd lantern]

realistically no race is truly gamebreaking

[winter harbor]

I haven't been really following the betas and stuff but my god this is so boring

im pretty sure healers have a more complex and engaging DPS rotation than sub does now. This can't be it's final form man.

[tepid trellis]

majority of the classes got taken out back

pruned to bits

[pallid inlet]

give me back dust

[tepid trellis]

pretty much everything is 3 button ungaboonga

[vale pine]

^ this

[winter harbor]

fuck man, I can't see myself spending 8-12 hours a week in prog hitting 2 buttons.

[vale pine]

3

[winter harbor]

mb

3

[chrome palm]

Mark no longer related to stealth

[chrome palm]

It is from garrote and from the enmity of blizzard entertainment class developers

[winter harbor]

Wait this means that classic vanilla rogue is legit harder to play than retail. All the dads with 8 full time jobs and 3 families that can only play 3 hours a month are going to migrate to retail now lol.

[tepid trellis]

probably not

still a vastly different game to back then

[winter harbor]

I mean sure the raids are harder but those people aren't going to prog mythic, they are going to sit in raid finder or normal pugs hitting their 3 buttons on retail rogue.

XD

[tepid trellis]

3 buttons fast

vs 1 button every 8 sec

waiting for energy

[swift tinsel]

and casting slice and dice once you can send a finisher

peak

[winter harbor]

At least in classic you had the option to use EA, rupture, and slice.

[swift tinsel]

wow such compelling options

lmao

[winter harbor]

I mean its all just a joke but retail right now is so disappointing.

[tepid trellis]

ngl rupture being gone is the least of my gripes

[hollow spear]

In classic you have legit five seconds between each button press to think about what to do next, it's not even close

[plush roost]

Im ngl guys sub in tww had 5 buttons...

2 of which are tied to 2 other buttons its really not different

Symbols tied to dance, flag tied to sblades. Oh and we have rupture

Wow so diffy

[vale pine]

there is complexity in certain talents, and a lot of knowlage about the game you can advantage of

[tepid trellis]

main diff was the small nuances which we dont have anymore specific timings for stuff

[vale pine]

the rotation became easier

but there is a decade long obfuscation of game mechanics and spaghetti code that was not reduced

[lilac stag]

Go play any other class for 1-3 weeks and come back to rogue when you realize the grass isn’t greener.

[plush roost]

Yeah but now theres new nuances, landing apex on super charged coup/dn, canc el aura macros, striking at 7cp on 5sht etc

[vale pine]

inherently, the funny part is

[tepid trellis]

they will 100% make it uncancelable

and the strike at 7

[winter harbor]

other classes being 2 buttons as well doens't make it better

[tepid trellis]

will also be nuked

[vale pine]

wow 2 would be a massive improvement for players

[plush roost]

(X) doubt, maybe in 2 seasons

[swift tinsel]

it did take them forever to make dn un-cancelaura'able

[tepid trellis]

unintended gameplay gets smited very fast

[swift tinsel]

so maybe we get away with it for a few weeks lol

but doubt

[tepid trellis]

well nobody played DS sub

so dont think they actually gave a shit

[plush roost]

Id prefer them make the apex work with sec tec or not consume before fixing unintended interactions

[swift tinsel]

macrocosmically no one plays sub so they might not either

give a shit, that is

[swift tinsel]

too much spaghetti unwinding for that

[tepid trellis]

sub has only been the prog spec for the last like 5 years for rogue

[swift tinsel]

still one of if not least played specs

[vale pine]

not every tier tho

[swift tinsel]

for general gameplay

not just prog raiding

[tepid trellis]

if you werent raiding at wr 1000k

then yes

you played sub

ever since sanctum

[winter harbor]

Whats funny is my M+ frost DK alt that I played on vibes just chilling is now significantly more complex than my rogue (unless they gutted it as well, haven't checked).

[lilac stag]

Spoiler. It’s not

[swift tinsel]

blue ret complex

lmao

[vale pine]

I played sub every tier ^^

[lilac stag]

Arms maybe the most complex spec currently.

[hollow spear]

People not overreacting to the pruning: impossible

[lilac stag]

I’m just gonna enjoy the vibe and pray for some love to goremaws

shit ain’t worth getting upset over

[winter harbor]

brother people being annoyed at the possibliliity of hitting 3 buttons for 4 hours straight is not overreacting. It's a game. You are supposed to have fun playing it. Right now a league champion has more complexity than my MMO character. It's jarring.

[warm marlin]

removing cancelaura apex wont really fix it

you will cancelaura sht early instead

would be even harder to play well

[shrewd lantern]

i mean sub realistically was hitting the same few buttons

even in s3

once you understand it you kind of just autopilot the same few buttons

[warm marlin]

the button count isnt even whats important, though I do feel like one more button would be nice. moreso a lot more thinking and planning things than midnight1 sub

[winter harbor]

Insane take tbh. There was so many engines going behind the scenes for what you were doing it felt great. You cant take that away and not add anything else

[shrewd lantern]

yeah basically you had to think about decision making

but the actual button count of s3 was nothing impressive

[warm marlin]

most ramp gone, dot setup gone, coup prep mostly gone

cdr gone

[winter harbor]

it was over double what we have now. The number may not be crazy but halving your presses is significant.

[shrewd lantern]

well no symbols prune really does nothing

the prep ryldd mentioned being gone sucks

[tepid trellis]

they want the game to be easier rotationally so, it is what it is

[winter harbor]

Maybe i'll become a streamer and be the first person to get CE playing sub rogue on my phone.

[shrewd lantern]

if you took baked symbols into dance and flag into sb last season

it would be been the same depth

[lilac stag]

TWW dance rotation was easier.
MN pre dance setup is easier.
Just have some fun.

[winter harbor]

Macroing symbols and dance together was bad and good rogues didnt do that.

[warm marlin]

[shrewd lantern]

good thing they baked supercharger into dance

[warm marlin]

the last time i fought a mythic boss in tww3 i think i manual pressed symbols like twice at most the entire fight

[shrewd lantern]

now

[stable plume]

Controversial opinion: I like new sub rogue. It feels fun, powerful cd windows, and overall enjoyable.

[warm marlin]

the required macro was like 80-90% of the casts

[swift tinsel]

bad rogue bad rogue whatcha gonna do

[shrewd lantern]

yeah i think i hit manual symbols more prepull

than during the fight

[north schooner]

they forgor to change the buff tooltip 💀

[lilac stag]

Sir you’re going to ruin the narrative here

[warm marlin]

coup gcd is fun

if you prepped properly you would be forced to use the macro for even second dance in blades

so rarely did you press it manual

[lilac stag]

Almost as much fun as DSM

[tepid trellis]

im a freak i play pretty much entirely without rotational macros

i just do shit manually

[hollow spear]

Yeah idk, so many buttons that we've lost were kinda meh

[winter harbor]

You should always send symbols before you ST including the second one you get in yoru first dance with good procs. Macroing them together was bad.

[hollow spear]

Are you trying to explain how to play sub rogue to Ryldd?

Lmao

[warm marlin]

with tfd yes, without tfd dance ends and st is ready at same time

[warm marlin]

unless you were ludicrously fast you prob lost gcds

[winter harbor]

most of hte time you could yeah

[warm marlin]

coup was cringe

my delay in logs was like 0.15s usually and it was costing me

[tepid trellis]

ive checked alot of my logs and never missed em

[swift tinsel]

gets rank one mythic parses, then called bad

[warm marlin]

the goat

[hollow spear]

Isn't it still cringe?

[swift tinsel]

take that discord cult

[lilac stag]

I do enjoy people coming here expecting overwhelming support for their angst against the new 2 button spec. Little do they realize sub rogues the best group to take what little we are given and make the best of it.

[warm marlin]

regardless that was only tww3

you did manual press it in tww2

[winter harbor]

My gcds were fine unless i was lagging

[warm marlin]

i miss symbols because of the times you pressed it independent of dance which made it interesting

as an extra button to press pretty much always with dance it was mid

[tepid trellis]

i will say tho

ill 100% rather take midnight sub

over early DF sub

any day of the week

fck that shit

or SL sub

garbage ass design

[winter harbor]

I mean why even have extra buttons at all tbh. Having extra buttons is cringe. We should have 2 buttons. 1 that is called damage and one that is called defensive.

[swift tinsel]

SL sub was so deadge I mentally blocked it out

[stable plume]

For minor cleave boss fights (Dimensius as an example), is deathstalker or trickster coming out ahead?

[winter harbor]

Yeah i played sub for most of CN then swapped to outlaw and played that until the rework mid DF.

[warm marlin]

I agree with you I'm just nitpicking ngl, hopefully they add more things soon or we find optimizations that add a bit of juice to things

[tepid trellis]

generally on prepatch DS does more dmg

[swift tinsel]

today's notes will change everything trust

we'll be feasting

[warm marlin]

mmm yes certainly

[swift tinsel]

today or tomorrow

chefs been cooking for two weeks now

[warm marlin]

[swift tinsel]

and by two weeks I mean since before christmas break

[hollow spear]

Tru

[swift tinsel]

that slow simmer

(its all gone)

[hollow spear]

It'll melt off the bone

[graceful rock]

Goremaws change today

[warm marlin]

here I'll post it early

[hollow spear]

Banger

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/truth-supernova-super-truth-nova-true-morgan-freeman-sephiroth-gif-4644219165557616305

[chrome palm]

low key

im really excited for the upcoming frostfire mage changes

which we will have 30 lineso f

[warm marlin]

i think unholy dk needs another rework

pronto

[shrewd lantern]

i miss when symbols was a real amp

and not glorified st buffer

that it was in s3

[tepid trellis]

i think devourer DH needs some sort of reap proc off of consume casts

[swift tinsel]

ye

[tepid trellis]

on single target

that spec is

ehm

[swift tinsel]

that spec in st is aidsburger

aoe can have at least a minor hint of spice

[tepid trellis]

its fun on AoE tho

beam-reap-beam-reap-beam-reap

[swift tinsel]

I like getting to beam - meta - reap

beam - consume spam til next reap - beam

[tepid trellis]

managed to get 4 stars into 1 meta

[swift tinsel]

hell yeah

do you usually send your reaps right after beam? I've been holding until just before beam is off cd again before sending it

can stay in meta super long

[tepid trellis]

as long as you dont overccap

just rip it

imo

[swift tinsel]

ah

bc I'm usually getting 3+ stars that way

and always reap at low fury

[shrewd lantern]

realistically anything is better than sl sub

[tepid trellis]

most important is just to beam insta on cd

[swift tinsel]

also feels like being able to spellqueue beam is kinda forgiving

bc there's def been times I should have been yeeted out of meta but can snipe a beam right before it does bc of spellqueue

[tepid trellis]

from what ive been told as well, you dont wanna cast reap without the proc

pretty much ever

[swift tinsel]

Oh yeah I don't

[astral axle]

i still dig sub but i do think it is missing a je ne sais quoi. a little too lean? unsure. definitely not one of the people longing for rupture but

[swift tinsel]

esp since you never worry about voidfall overstacking bc you get beam enough with even decent haste

but would def like something to break up consume spam, however fast you get to with haste

[shrewd lantern]

i mean apex gives some thought

[astral axle]

If before I was like 😀 now I'm like 🙂

[hazy breach]

Apex definitely makes it better, could probably still use some extra sauce but its fine

[astral axle]

and yeah that's fair apex

[hazy breach]

Like in s2 its probably gonna be solid if we get an interesting tierset for example

But thats like 6+ months away so

[swift tinsel]

Idk I was lukewarm on devourer but after playing it and havoc a good amount the last few days I'm liking it as a main alt prospect

[bleak night]

its satisfying to play

[astral axle]

I really like a good burndown spec

[swift tinsel]

the st rotation is kinda eh but I do like the melee component, wish it had a little bit more to it

[bleak night]

i think it not having apex in prepatch is gonna ruin a lot of peoples perspective of it

its simple but its definitely decent fun

[swift tinsel]

does apex really add that much though

[bleak night]

i mean

[swift tinsel]

you get a free collapsing star

[bleak night]

its an entire extra star cast + 5 souls

[tepid trellis]

insta start after reap on meta

or not on reap

press meta = +5 souls and insta star

[swift tinsel]

bc isn't the big hangup for a lot of people that it takes a while to get into meta

[tepid trellis]

well in the m+ build it does on single target

but that because you only have consume

[swift tinsel]

ye true

[tepid trellis]

in the single target build

you have more generation

[cursive vapor]

guys if i have 6/7 cps and dance + sectec ready: first an evis or immediately dance and sectec? or doesnt matter?

[lilac stag]

Finish 6+ send Sectech to get on cd

[swift tinsel]

supposed you also get the 10sec cdr on voidblade when you star

[lilac stag]

tierset inc

[winter galleon]

For pre patch do we tab target at all or just blast?

[tender dust]

Guys, if SB is coming off cooldown and i'm holding my dance to double dance in SB windows, but sectech is off cooldown do i just hold the setech for the SB windows. or do i press then sectech without a dance?

[haughty mural]

im here for it

[tender dust]

Or does that depends on how long it is

[limpid sage]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-67-scp-67-funyuns-funny-gif-75413186200073602

[west tide]

u hold it all

[limpid sage]

iirc holding is a gain

[tender dust]

Ty

[manic island]

is it possible to get platynator to show supercharged combo points?

[lilac stag]

Check with their discord

[haughty mural]

In platynator?

[manic island]

yea

[haughty mural]

For what use case ?

[manic island]

i put my combo points attatched to nameplates, but the ones on platy are all red

instead of turning blue sometimes when you have sccp

i think blizz's own resource display did it but doesnt anymore

[haughty mural]

I just track my cps on my own ressource bar

[manic island]

thats what i have to do rn

[haughty mural]

Didn’t know it was a thing to teach your combo points on nameplates

[west tide]

will akinator know my favorite rogue discord mods

[slate marlin]

i just tried and it cant guess whispyr so

[lilac stag]

Some people like it. Never made sense to me. Also not important to track empowered cps imo. You hit dance and sectech, then whatever.

[haughty mural]

You can also have some pre combat

But I agree

[chrome palm]

It’s an oldhead thing from when combo points were tied to a specific enemy

Im pretty sure

[hazy breach]

Yeah classic andies

But like, having it in the middle is just way better, so if you can have that instead why wouldnt you?

Idk

So many people asking for it

[bleak night]

I was definitely surprised by how many people apparently used it

[chrome palm]

But also, there’s never a reason to track supercharger

[hazy breach]

The only reason would be to know if youve pressed it prepull

[chrome palm]

Oh true

[radiant swift]

does dslcie work for sub?

or do u sim m+ with 5 5t5m?

[small helm]

Is sub’s niche big snap aoe?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[winter moon]

Question, do you ever send tech with 6 combo points or is better to spend and then dance into tech.

[warm marlin]

burst in general ye

snap aoe burst good

[viral phoenix]

Whats the difference in prio damage between the hero talents? does DS have more with focus?

[plush roost]

Singular is like 4% of your overall in a key

Does pretty decent prio in gigapulls like algethar

[chrome palm]

pure prio is probably quite close id imagine

[plush roost]

Ive had singular be top dps on the tree boss

[chrome palm]

wthelly

[plush roost]

Boss dam only

Feel like kinda meh tho

U lose a lot of eviscerate dam

But smallies need to die so idk

[chrome palm]

are you gaming DN here?

[plush roost]

Ye

[chrome palm]

ambiguous question mb, are you avoiding it i meant*

[plush roost]

Ive kinda come to the conclusion i prefer trickster in that key even tho ds seems logicslly better

Ye i do the hold dn shit when smallies come alive

Seems not worth lowkey

I think boss would die faster if i just played trickster and eviscersted and let others pad aoe

Or just played outlaw

[chrome palm]

yeah my only problem with outlaw on that boss

is that blade flurry puts me to 10 fps

gg

[plush roost]

Haha ye rip

[hazy breach]

Once they fix storm proccing unseen on a random target yes

Until then probably not

[sick basin]

Does sub require dagger oh? I know assa does but I thought BS only required mh. In a sub/outlaw off spec world is there any reason you couldn't do non dagger oh?

[hazy breach]

Yes you need daggers

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[sick basin]

Ahh

Ty

[hazy breach]

You lose a fuckton of your energy/combo points if you use anything else

[sick basin]

Rip the outlaw easy off spec dream

[upbeat smelt]

BUT you can transmog swords on them now!

Which I freaking love

[sick basin]

I do love the mog option for sure

[soft summit]

with deathstalker do we use eviscerate every 3 finishers to reapply the mark in AOE? and if so is there any cut off? like with 20+ mobs its a waste to eviscerate over another bp etc

[hazy breach]

With 4-5 targets

Not 20

[odd sandal]

I see in the guide the the macro that has SD,SB and STech, but in the AoE rotation it has a Shadow strike before the ST?

But not in the single target.

[stoic flower]

Are we back to ignoring Clear the Witness on Sub?

[hazy breach]

Not much else to do about +50% storm damage

[warm marlin]

any knowers please help, do you lose your sht only after you cast the apex finisher

[hazy breach]

Wdym

You dont lose it when it procs

You lose it when you cast the finisher ye

[warm marlin]

ya i just havent been on beta in a while

ok

[plush roost]

U lose em when ur bar refills after a finisher

[warm marlin]

nah aint no way

[hazy breach]

[warm marlin]

there actually is another

unholy

rework

[plush roost]

Mage mia btw

Aug mia btw

Idk what demo changes mean

[brisk onyx]

wtf rogue still stealth in beta tuning this week

[north schooner]

the mad lad was right! How could he have possibly known?

[warm marlin]

yeah but what about this one #subtlety message

[north schooner]

insider info

imagine having devs who iterate though

[graceful rock]

those dk changes i think were already in beta

theyre just coming to prepatch

[hazy breach]

No

Theyre completely different

[north schooner]

wait did wowhead post the wrong thing

this is the latest post https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/1201-midnight-beta-test-development-notes/2213807/11

[graceful rock]

I think they fixed clone maxxing

nvm

[hazy breach]

They havent patched it yet im fairly sure

[chrome palm]

that only took the entire beta xdd

is fotm wow streamer going to rank us up in the tier list now

[hazy breach]

Its been fixed on live since like a day after prepatch

[swift tinsel]

Feeding us scraps we already ate hell yeah

[jolly sleet]

im a bit confused about something : pre midnight the goal for sub was to stack %dmg buffs to build two sec techs during a flag window, which lasted ~20 sec so we were planning ~20sec ahead when we would burst

now it feels like we just .. press thing and ennemies die instantly, then we wait for 90 sec.

[chrome palm]

yeah burst is super front loaded, instead of having a ramp

and you have little agency over your cds other than basically pressing them when theyre up

[jolly sleet]

right, I was feeling like I was missing something, ty
The fact that I didn't look for damage amp before sec tech is quite disturbing

I do dance, but it doesn't feel like i'm an assassin planning an murder, more like I have a nuke button at will which sometimes nukes stronger

[chrome palm]

yeah i preferred having flag because it kinda mentally prepared me to do the burst, im not quite used to just pressing a macro with all of your shit on it and instantly bursting

[jolly sleet]

Yeah that as well, the goal was to unbloat and prune spells that were sent together

and now we just send all our spellbook in a macro

[chrome palm]

yeah

the change to blades means that consuming premed before activating isnt really important at all

like then it would feel a lot, dance->strike->blades-secret

instead of macro at max cp

maybe it would still be the macro for reasons but

idk

[quaint lodge]

i felt like a lot of the effort that goes into preparing sub burst was really fun

now its just w/e hit ur buttons

[plush roost]

Was there ever a consensus on sblades .5 after sec tec or just rip that shit raw?

[chrome palm]

was using it after an old optimization or something

[hazy breach]

In s3 it wasnt good because you almost always missed a global in blades because of it (since coup had longer gcd)

In midnight i dont really see a point either as youre probably not in dance for that last gcd anyway

So having blades on the initial sectech hit is prob more worthwhile

[hazy breach]

Yeah

[chrome palm]

i figured it was because some people seemed attached to it

[jolly sleet]

Ah yes I have another question : currently when I blades, I struggle to fit 2 sec tech during blades : I have ~20% haste
Is this a stat issue ? like my laaaast gcd of dance finishes .5 sec before ST is available

[woeful wren]

Is the trinket haste + dance increase just a ping thing on beta? Like doesn't work unless I delay the dance a global or so

[hazy breach]

No, getting 2 sectechs during blades isnt something you should be expecting

It kinda only happens during BL

[jolly sleet]

ok nice, I was affraid I was misplaying something

[chrome palm]

is it worth it to beg for pi

[plush roost]

Nah

[chrome palm]

i mean its always worth it but

does it make a difference with secret

[swift tinsel]

do it anyways just to piss off the others that want it

[plush roost]

Iirc 2% or somethinf eleem was saying

[swift tinsel]

embrace your inner rat

[lilac stag]

another priest to shaman Wednesday?

[swift tinsel]

we're on a generational run

[chrome palm]

i wouldnt expect anything other than undocumented bug fixes

which is what we got

[viral phoenix]

during lust do you want that 2nd sec tech to be supercharged or how likely is that to happen

[lilac stag]

I’m holding out cope for

[hazy breach]

Did they accidently add back the delay on the trinket?

[swift tinsel]

no shot

[woeful wren]

I figured it could be EU ping but idk

[chrome palm]

im gonna lose my mind

[swift tinsel]

that would be tragically hilarious if they did that

[jolly sleet]

stop spending until sec tech is up 😂

[hazy breach]

Nah just send it on cd

[viral phoenix]

ok cool, and for this optimization whats going on here? Is this target count specific or just once per shadow dance or how does this work?

[hazy breach]

Yeah you def cant macro the trinket with dance

[hazy breach]

No to all of those

[lilac stag]

+1 button. Everyone rejoice

[hazy breach]

Literally everything about it is written there

If you can proc the apex, proc the apex

[viral phoenix]

okay I just maybe dont know how the apex talents works then o7

[jolly sleet]

it lets you squeeze an additional spender I guess

[hazy breach]

No its less spenders

But all of them are apex buffed

[jolly sleet]

aaaaaaa

tyvm

ok you need to build to trigger apex, which lets you echo your finisher for 50% dmg

[woeful wren]

Btw, out of curiosity do Weaponmaster/Shuriken Tornado clones interact with apex 2?

[hazy breach]

They should

But they do not

[viral phoenix]

Can I ask does it have to be shadowstrike? Can it be storm in aoe?

[woeful wren]

Ye was hitting dummy just now and couldn't seem to get it

So another bug

[hazy breach]

Idk i wouldnt worry too much about it, its probably getting nuked

[hazy breach]

Yeah its on the list

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[woeful wren]

kekw

[hazy breach]

does not buff Shadowed Finishers nor the Apex Clones

Every other line

[woeful wren]

Another question tho. Since we're playing Lethality, with Planned Exe + Finality 1/2 is crit not > vers? (for m+)

We actually have so much + crit dmg

[hazy breach]

In midnight vers is the last stat

But you shouldnt be playing planned execution in aoe either on the beta

Attack speed too good

[woeful wren]

Hmm. Is the sht gains rly worth the overall loss?

[hazy breach]

Yes getting 25% more sht is worth more than doing ~2.5% more damage

[plush roost]

erm

[hazy breach]

Yep

[cyan cobalt]

just had that 2 mins ago xd

while hitting dummy

[bleak night]

hm

[astral axle]

https://tenor.com/view/kinoplex-steak-allow-me-to-explain-the-guy-above-me-is-insane-talking-gif-24312956

[chrome palm]

theres still hope

[velvet hawk]

what was the shadowblades change in 12.0.1? idk what value: 2100% means. the other changes looked like typo fixes

[hazy breach]

It now gives 100% more combo points instead of 2%

Ie it works instead of doing nothing

[velvet hawk]

hahaha o ok ty

[maiden oar]

whats up with the cancel aura apex talent sectech thing ive been living under a rock

[swift tinsel]

Tweaks is fucking up again I nearly threw my keyboard across the room

I just want weakauras back man

This shit sucks lol

Imma just peace out until midnight and then get annoyed with addons then too

[swift tinsel]

Apex only replicates the physical hit of secret technique which is the weakest part so it’s better to cancelaura Ancient Arts than to consume with Sectech

[maiden oar]

oh ok

makes sense thanks

so i dont need a cancelaura ancient arts on its own keybind for any reason?

or are there times that could be useful

[swift tinsel]

Can just macro to secret technique

[maiden oar]

[torn tide]

wait wtf did stuff get changed again??

[brisk onyx]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tame terrace]

do we go trickster for any cleave that exists?

[tribal blade]

oh damn specs are being given stuff back

[frosty fossil]

Oh really???

[tribal blade]

yeah my guildie just linked this to our hpal

[bleak night]

[frosty fossil]

Oh dang

Hollyyyyy cowwwww

That's absolutely wild

[tribal blade]

everyone thought it was just gonna be tuning from here on out

apparently not

[frosty fossil]

Bliz ready with the undo button

Do you hope they give us Rogues anything back? 🤔

[shrewd lantern]

what is there to give back

[tribal blade]

i don't think we get back flag or symbols for sure

i could see them giving back rupture or a similar dot and then making us play around apex ruptures

[shrewd lantern]

highly doubt they return the spec to being 20 seconds of nuke

then afk

rupture would have been cool if it still gave sanguinary vein

[frosty fossil]

Yeah I don't think anyone wants that

[shrewd lantern]

but the way it was "this does more damage over its course than spending the points on evis" is such a shit reason

[shrewd lantern]

speak for yourself

[frosty fossil]

Fair enough 😂

[eager latch]

it's beta man

i don't think anyone cares about beta names

i've seen the most degen shit

[frosty fossil]

Diddyplug is wild.

[placid blade]

Is it possible to get 2 ST in a SB currently?

[eager latch]

it's just what came up when i hit randomize

🤷‍♂️

[frosty fossil]

Ain't no mfn way.

[short radish]

the entire hpal community hates it

[tribal blade]

damn that's rough

[frosty fossil]

Do they????

Oof

Feels bad.man

[frosty fossil]

Very strong feelings there.

All of which seem extremely valid.

[short radish]

if ellesmere is dooming

it's so jover

[frosty fossil]

Oof

Rip pallies

[sick jackal]

Maybe we get nightblade dot back

[wild vine]

With some extra interactions that would be pretty good

[tall girder]

bring back rupture

[vale pine]

good morning lovely people

[lilac stag]

Go play If you want rupture / dots

We’re supposed to be a “burst” spec. The more dot dmg you add, the less bursty the damage profile becomes.

[scarlet heath]

bring back nightblade

honestly I really liked the Torghast talent that made Shadowstirke apply few secs of rupture

was kinda cute

but it would probably mean alt tabing if that was a thing so no thx

[velvet nova]

I'd hate to be forced to alt tab during gameplay

[scarlet heath]

oh meant tab targeting lol

[sick jackal]

What type

Tbh I kinda liked the legion version, it was a hard hitting low duration dot that gave %dmg (if i remember correctly)

[scarlet heath]

yes it was dmg amp

[sick jackal]

They could make it like If you have a target with nightblade up you deal %x dmg so we dont aoe dot

[sick jackal]

Yeah but they dont make our bursts harder they make our bursts happen more

Like dance uptime is what %40 or smt atm?

[quick plume]

Bring back nightblade, limit to one like caustic spatter, we need buttons

[haughty mural]

and what would that do for you

[lilac stag]

We have some of the highest burst in mn. Everyone’s burst was lowered.

[haughty mural]

"press" a button once in 30 seconds ?

which does not do anything

[sick jackal]

This feels like a cycle at this point

They linearize our dmg with uptime

Rework

Bursty spec

And linearize again with changes

Tbh I personally didnt think much about the dots but losing them feels weired atm, like i am missing something

[lilac stag]

uptime has always been important for sub, it was slightly less in s3 since our burst was hyper focused on 90 seconds and damage amps.

Prepatch sub and the amount of haste we have isn’t exactly indicative of beta gameplay

[sick jackal]

Maybe make nightblade a optinoal capstone instead of goremaws basicly a shadow dmg linear style and a burst one

Like a choice

[lilac stag]

Or just fix goremaws and remove the energy and get off dot fantasy island

[haughty mural]

we really don't have much synergy with dots

[lilac stag]

I get the desire for “we need another button lulz”. Fuck off with the maintenance bullshit dots.

[sick jackal]

Not having a single dot effect no matter how big/small it is feels like we are missing something

[haughty mural]

we didnt even have much synergy when rupture was still there

[sick jackal]

Rupture was useless just bloat imo wasnt even thematic

[haughty mural]

and nightblade wouldnt be ?

exactly the same ?

[sick jackal]

But nightblade was a dot that felt like sub to me

[lilac stag]

it’s shadowy

[haughty mural]

moar purple

[sick jackal]

They can restrict us and make let only one up

Rupture sucked becouse we had to aoe dot

[sick jackal]

That and i loved the design behind the dot being low duration amd high dmg procs

[haughty mural]

and then you have an 30s maintenance button which does nothing ?

right

?

[sick jackal]

Sure yeah

[lilac stag]

NB was absolute cancer to play around

but go on

[haughty mural]

gimme an idea for synergys and i might consider

[lilac stag]

Didn’t we just get rid of symbols?

[haughty mural]

would lock us to a target again

[haughty mural]

[shrewd lantern]

nightblade had a damage increase attached to it

so it was more prep for burst tbh

[haughty mural]

and that

and prep is kinda a reach

[lilac stag]

We all loved FW change no? Yet we want an on target dmg amp

Make it make sense

[haughty mural]

revert FW then while you are at it

we probably dont deserve qol things

[lilac stag]

Just for a button

[haughty mural]

season2 anyway

[lilac stag]

Tier set s2

We ride

[haughty mural]

hell yeah

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/okay-yes-lets-do-it-nick-cage-gif-4889456

[haughty mural]

and gets a haste scaling

because why not

[sick jackal]

I did say we can make it give us a buff as long as its active

[snow rune]

Hi all, i am outlaw player but inam very interested about subtlety. How is he in term of gameplay and dynamisme please ?

[scarlet heath]

at that point it is just rupture with madnatory upkeep buff tbh

[snow rune]

Thx a lot

[lilac stag]

Vibe is the gameplay.

We have CDs. Short for the most part.

Outlaw doesn’t

[haughty mural]

YES exactly

[lilac stag]

Just take slice and dice off evis at that point.

[haughty mural]

yeah facts

let snd be their maintenance buff

[lilac stag]

A direct damage 40-45 second cd that’s worth pressing (looking at you ) is the extra button that’s missing. Not a maintenance buff

[elder saddle]

I agree

[lilac stag]

get rid of Danse and replace it with blight

if you don’t want to deal with another button take blight & brew

choices

new ability that instantly makes Sectech usable.

idk

Just fuck off with the dots.

Double sectech in dance poggies?

[elder saddle]

We need Death from Above back as a pve cd

[haughty mural]

aaaaaaaand overcooked

[bleak night]

sectec from above

[haughty mural]

DfA was unfortunately a buggy mess

[jolly sleet]

Death from tech

[lilac stag]

Sectech from below, the search for the missing clones.

[snow rune]

@lilac stag Dont understand your point, it's boring?

[jolly sleet]

lets say we get Storm earth fire with shadow clones

damage amp

woo

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/groot-babygroot-gif-24832509

[jolly sleet]

so it gets buggy because of pet + because of clones

[lilac stag]

@snow rune I enjoy it

[elder saddle]

A big new finisher around shadow shurikens

[lilac stag]

Everything in this game got simpler. Rogue still has some thinking to it, while just being a vibe

[elder saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/sasuke-gif-19096123

[haughty mural]

the only thing not so vibe-ish

is DS

[lilac stag]

We don’t talk about DS

[haughty mural]

and the fact how much i got parried last raid night

[lilac stag]

Haha

[haughty mural]

the first times i just thought i somehow got refunds

but remembered they are not here anymore till apex

[lilac stag]

I have to imagine most specs get some addition flavor come s2 in 6 months once Blizzard is done beta testing raid / addon mechanics and success / failure of gameplay overall

[elder saddle]

It feels good and easy to play. No more ramp-up, instant damage, very quick auto attacks with Haste. You should give it a try !
But IMO we need something more to press, and no dots.

[haughty mural]

agreed

[lilac stag]

Is the same thing every time. they strip it all away (because the foundation is weak) and then add a bunch of crap back which makes it either better or worse

[haughty mural]

We've been there a lot of times

[lilac stag]

apparently some of us have not

Way better spot now than when we were going into bfa or shadowlands

[haughty mural]

bfa

[alpine wraith]

wod->legion was very very bad

also bfa was a bit sad in that they made all the wrong choices with azerite

made a banger azerite then buffed it

then changed it to some bs

and general tuning being low

[haughty mural]

which one are you referring to ?

[alpine wraith]

first dance

first iteration was a bit weak seond one was super good

then they decided to krangle it up

and make it some haste bs

[scarlet heath]

bfa outlaw was peak for me

bfa sub was depressing

[alpine wraith]

bfa sub was kinda fun problem was tuning was very low so it "felt" bad

[lilac stag]

I think this was every spec. WoD still looked back at as some of the best overall spec design

[vale pine]

nv made it somewhat fun

[scarlet heath]

what is nv?

[vale pine]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=273419/nights-vengeance

basically a spell which gave you the oppotunity to use rupture in a specific way to create burst damage

[scarlet heath]

[snow rune]

@elder saddle thx

@elder saddle there are downtime?

[tall girder]

ive done some thinking dont bring rupture back

[lilac stag]

Yes. On prepatch not so much.

[snow rune]

And on beta?

[limpid sage]

less thinking pls

it feels so empty without it ;-;

[tall girder]

its better

only evis and sectech gaming

[lilac stag]

Yes. Was the beta part of the answer

[snow rune]

Arf, nothing to press or.hold for generate ressources ?

[lilac stag]

You have generators to press ofc

[haughty mural]

can we make a rupture command which would link to the assa channel ?

[tender dust]

Guys, if i wanted to check on logs. if i'm pressing enough in my dance windows. how globals does a dance window fit? like whats the max

[lilac stag]

Just try the spec out? It’s rogue. It’s builder spenders with short cds (dance and Sectech).

[haughty mural]

depends on your haste

[lilac stag]

Depends on haste

[tender dust]

damn. so how can i check if i'm doing it properly or not?

[haughty mural]

last night was a vibe btw scath

[lilac stag]

Look at the length of dance and count casts / see if you can get another in

[lilac stag]

Nice.

[tender dust]

So if the dance is lets say 8 seconds. how much cast would i need to get in?

[lilac stag]

1 second gcd class

[tender dust]

ah oke so 8 cast

That makes sense ( sorry i'm new to sub)

[lilac stag]

You’re good

[haughty mural]

if you are playing trickster it can vary

since coup is 1.2sec

[tender dust]

Does that remove one cast from it? because of the 1.2?

Because you end on 7.2 if 8 second dance

[lilac stag]

Trying to sneak the casts in is why we Sectech first and yes if trickster you have to compute coup

Most people playing DS in raid so my bad on assuming that

[digital cloud]

Hi guys, never played Sub before and looking for the spec for midnight. I have some random noob questions - first is why do i read that Deathstalker is better for m+ as from i understand deathstalker mark seems designed for single target?

[lilac stag]

They’re about the same on beta

[digital cloud]

Is there a world where we can be in perma shadow dance, or not?

[tender dust]

No.

[vale pine]

we are already dancing a lot

[tender dust]

Dance with me baby

[digital cloud]

xD

So for a noob, do we agree that basically the basics are : Dance on CD, ST on CD with 6+ combos, pair SD with Shadow blades when its up, and otherwise Shuriken storm / Black powder in AOE, Backstab/eviscerate in single target?

[haughty mural]

you sync dance with sectech because you want to supercharge that

[vale pine]

dance uptime is roughly 48%

means you already spend every 2nd gcd in dance kinda

[digital cloud]

Ok i wasnt familiar with this : if i understand well it makes even more damage on ST with the supercharge buff, is that correct?

And, do i need to build 6+ combo points before getting into dance so i dance+ST immediately?

[lilac stag]

0 cp or 6+ cp going into dance

[tender dust]

With supercharge your next two finishers are stronger so you want to supercharge those. and you supercharge them by pressing dance. so your sectech should be first or second finisher

[lilac stag]

@digital cloud if you haven’t #subtlety-faq

[digital cloud]

I did but it makes more sense when asking people with my own words haha

[neon pond]

Good morning guys. I have 2 quick questions regarding sub rotation. so I noticed it's advised to use SD while on low cp (1 or less) but since we have sd + st macroed together is this a net loss in dmg? would it be a gain to use sd with lowcp in comparison to go for 6cp before sd to sd + st ? I hope the question makes sense for u.
And second one is regarding vanish? We just vanish on cd while we have our sd downtime, or am I wrong on this one?

[snow rune]

Do we use rupture ?

[neon pond]

we dont have rupture

[snow rune]

No more? Snifff

[haughty mural]

if you dont have 6+ CPs, don't use the macro

[vale pine]

yes

also flagellation, shuriken tornado, cold blood and symbols of death (and tea if we are honest)

[bronze turret]

So is rogue perfect nowv

Since i look at notes every week and there’s never any updates

[vale pine]

(all spells i mentioned are passive or removed)

absolutely

[red vortex]

Besides all the bugs?

we chilling

[vale pine]

best iteration of the game, lovely gameplay loop, with a lot of depth and skill expression so people are all happy

[bronze turret]

Bugfixes are rarely displayed in notes

[vale pine]

same with addons, the addon api is perfect

[bronze turret]

Wow nice

[vale pine]

i should have added /s to everything ^^

[neon pond]

that wasn't exactly the question. My point is if it is a gain if we use sd with low cp before we use st cus of the advice to use sd with low cp

[vestal escarp]

Perfectly crap yeah

[vale pine]

the problem currently is:

• bugs
• apex design

essentially, you get ressoruce flooded, which means we put damage > ressource economy

leads to gameplay like ignoring shadowcraft procs (kinda)

or cancleaura macros

but i don't think blizz wants both in a gameplay loop, so wouldn't be surprised if apex was changed/reworked a bit

[vestal escarp]

12.1

The great sub apex rework

[haughty mural]

simplified:
If you have low cps use strike or storm as first global in dance, It will give you full cps because of premed
Thats why its recommended either with full CPs into sectech or low CPs into builder

[vale pine]

low cp is typically a bit better, but you can in general use both on low and high cp

the main reason to use secret first gcd is to not lose out on casts

so you can macro secret + dance and use that to get your first gcd asap

storm first gcd is a bit diffrent

it is in general worse than strike

[digital cloud]

Could you guys explain how we play around Shadow techniques to a noob please? 😄

[vale pine]

but not by much

the idea is the same

[haughty mural]

thats the not so simplified version

[vale pine]

because we get often only marginal longer dance from haste

using storm + dance in a macro can give you just enough time to fit every gcd

now you might ask yourself

[tender dust]

How long are the dances with the 40% haste on beta atm?

[vale pine]

🤔 but why don't we macro strike

[neon pond]

tbf

I was wondering that

u are completely right lol

[haughty mural]

because it doesnt work

[vale pine]

thats, because its not possible anymore, it was in the past but was changed at some point

[haughty mural]

[vale pine]

you need two key presses if you macro strike + dance together

which introduce delays

[neon pond]

sadge

[red vortex]

by that logic

[vale pine]

it is in a sense a design problem

[red vortex]

isnt it always better to enter dance with 6+

and macro sectec

[vale pine]

well either that

[alpine wraith]

if sec tech is off cd

[vale pine]

or storm

[lilac stag]

You’re trying to maximize casts in dance. So sectech can be cast immediately in dance, strike cannot. If you miss a cast because of coup gcd it’s a loss if an ability while in dance. Your haste levels will impact this.

[alpine wraith]

you dance even if low cp

just strike

[red vortex]

yea but like

the whole gcd logic

[vale pine]

both trade of a evry small amount of dps

to secure the extra gcd

[red vortex]

for to not lose out on casts

[vale pine]

because losing the gcd is way more costly

to mention this too

technically, you won't alwys have these tight haste values

[neon pond]

ok - followup question would lowering sqw make any difference?

[vale pine]

so its not always "best" to use the macro

you want to cast back to back

so your spell queue should be as high as possible

not low

lower spell queue = higher possibility to introduce delays

[lilac stag]

as a reminder. Simple 2 button spec.

[haughty mural]

but muh rupture

[vale pine]

😠 4 button spec

[neon pond]

gotchu - ty for answering my questions guys!

[lilac stag]

7 or 8

[vale pine]

can reduce it to 4 buttons

[lilac stag]

Goremaw S2 tier set giving us 8.

If you want to macro everything and complain about buttons be my guest.

[red vortex]

4 (5 if macro)

banger

[vale pine]

if you want to keep things seperate

can go up to 6

how do you get to 7 or 8?

[lilac stag]

2 builders, 2 spenders, 3 CDs. +1 goremaws

[vale pine]

keeping blades seperate too?

[snow rune]

@vale pine arf...

[north schooner]

mentioned

[lilac stag]

Those are literally the base spells. What you want to macro is entirely up to you.

[haughty mural]

i have the most things seperate

[red vortex]

i mean, i have blades seperate

[haughty mural]

but i do like piano

[red vortex]

i have everything seperate

tbf

[vale pine]

strike/bs (1), storm(2), secret(3), evis(4), bp(5), dance(6), blades(7) i guesss

can also seperate strike/bs

to add +1

[haughty mural]

even pot and trinket

[north schooner]

and jump

[lilac stag]

New haste trinket back to being delayed.

So no macro there

[vale pine]

ye

[red vortex]

can macro step with dance too

[vale pine]

thats already a bit F

[lilac stag]

but we all want buttons

Do we not?

[haughty mural]

only if it is rupture

else macro everything ofc

[tender dust]

But if you use the macro with sectec in it. you always make sure you go max CP right. otherwise you screwed

[ebon fjord]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine wraith]

6 is fine too

[mighty citrus]

i want this

[scarlet heath]

I see people complaining about buttons a lot

just make Strike our only generator and Evis does splash damage, surely we happy now?

[vale pine]

a and d are dps buttons, right?

[tender dust]

yeah i meant 6+

[scarlet heath]

2 button spec

[haughty mural]

people want 1 button with everything macroed and a second button with rupture

it seems

[lilac stag]

Gnome Sequencer approach

[mighty citrus]

dont we have one button rotation? 😄

[scarlet heath]

also merge shadow blades and shadow dance, only 1 big cooldown

stonks

[lilac stag]

We also want FW independent of a target, and an ability to debuff a specific target.

[digital cloud]

Guys is there a way to have one button for Shadowstrike / Backstab depending on stealth./not stealth?

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/crazy-ppl-make-me-crazy-jim-carrey-gif-12393197

[tender dust]

Yeah there is a macro on wowhead

[torn tide]

wait i thought rupture isnt a thing anymore for sub

[digital cloud]

my man

[haughty mural]

I'm being sarcastic

because every 5 minutes someone comes in here and complains about missing rupture

[lilac stag]

They don’t have the last 2 hours of us being good soldiers

[torn tide]

lmaoo

[willow bobcat]

rupture? I never even met her

[haughty mural]

https://klipy.com/gifs/im-doing-my-part-serious

[lilac stag]

Thank gods for my insomnia tonight

[torn tide]

if people want rupture they should go play assassin fr, theyll be pressing rupture like nuts

[lilac stag]

Well. Maybe they’re salty at more CT presses

[scarlet heath]

I think we should also get another bleed ability that becomes empowered from stealth and then AoE spell to spread those bleeds

[digital cloud]

Could someone explain to a noob how to play around shadow techniques please?

[torn tide]

only use it when in shadow dance

thats it

[scarlet heath]

shadow technique aint secret technique tho

[torn tide]

oh fuk i read that wrongly

[digital cloud]

Yeah shadow techniques passive hehe

[torn tide]

my bad

[digital cloud]

no problem sir

[vale pine]

well fw/fazed is diffrent from rupture

one is a dot you can optimize around

the other thing is a debuff you have limited control over

[lilac stag]

NB is the context

[vale pine]

oh

okay

i thought rupture itself

[torn tide]

btw is there a limit on how many targets black powder hits? ive never actually seen it

[lilac stag]

it’s been a fun 2 hours fuu

Good morning

[haughty mural]

both

[red vortex]

i walk with the arrowkeys

so yes

;/s

[vagrant fulcrum]

Wat

[lilac stag]

A is rupture on Assa

We’ve gone full circle

[vagrant fulcrum]

Hold on a minute ain’t arrow keys on the right side on the keyboard

[red vortex]

sure are

and so is my mouse

[vagrant fulcrum]

[haughty mural]

depends how you turn the keyboard

[lilac stag]

You move keeb full left of desk

[haughty mural]

[vagrant fulcrum]

Is the kb upside down

[red vortex]

well if u have that razor mouse with 12 buttons

you could pull it off

[vagrant fulcrum]

Actually real

[red vortex]

4 button spec anyweay

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/rip-rage-mad-friend-keyboard-gif-17131133

[red vortex]

or that

[vale pine]

keybord turning XD

its the funniest wow thing in existence

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/rogue-warcraft-wow-gif-11008475980691198481

This may beat kb turning

[haughty mural]

True

[digital cloud]

We dont use slice and dice in deathstalker? I might be blind but i dont see any interaction

[haughty mural]

atleast a 30sec maintenance right ?

[red vortex]

it applies

auto

when u use evis

[digital cloud]

thanks sir

[haughty mural]

it was another memery

[lilac stag]

it’s fun how you can shoot down changes with other changes that were good

[digital cloud]

in aoe situations should i still use eviscerate to have the buff? it doesnt seem that BP applies S&D

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/evolve-pokemon-charizard-fire-gif-16190282

[lilac stag]

Generally speaking you’ll have it running going into packs in m+. You can always fire off an evis to pop it off outside of dance or at lower target counts

[digital cloud]

Alright i get it, basically you'll never find yourself ina situation where you simply Shurkien / BP without having already S&D rolling

[tender dust]

@vale pine if you had like really high haste how long is dance on beta?

[lilac stag]

Have to wait for actual release to figure out where/when it would be worth just to force an evic

[digital cloud]

And sorry to ask again but if someone could reply to me about the Shadow technique passive, i'd appreciate it ❤️

[haughty mural]

also as Trickster you'll press your Coup and as deathstalker your darkest night if you need/want prio

which will also give/extend s&d

[digital cloud]

very clear ty

[lilac stag]

This should be before diminishing returns. I think the 5+ numbers has to get rerun

4 maybe off as well. I forgot what Eleem mentioned

You’re not necessarily looking at dance as a time, you’re looking at it as how many gcds can I fit.

[tender dust]

4 extra globals in dance damn

but 1564 haste is what? around 30-40% haste?

[lilac stag]

have to log on beta to look.

On live at 80 483 haste is roughly 37%

[vale pine]

we already have a lot of haste in pre patch, will likely have less in midnight

[tender dust]

That little?

oh thought it woulda bveen more

[sand gyro]

heyo, havent played sub in a while, with how many targets we press shuriken storm and blkack as trickster?

[lilac stag]

That a lot.

stat squish was a thing

[lilac stag]

#subtlety-faq

[sand gyro]

ty

[tender dust]

Yeah but 1564 haste in the picture you send and 37% is 438 haste. then you wouldnt even get a second global in dance? or am i seeing that wrong

[torn tide]

me with my 13% haste

[vale pine]

2+ you storm + bp.
on 2 you keep using strike in dance but 3 or more also storm

[lilac stag]

You’d get 1 extra global. Keep in mind we’re are in end of expansion gear at max level.

[tender dust]

yeah. i get that

[lilac stag]

#subtlety message

Live

[tender dust]

ah but that is gonna be a lot less when we get gear in midnight

i hate that emoticon

[lilac stag]

Well you get a thumbs up

Rather a middle finger?

[tender dust]

hahaha but sure bud sound so sarcastic to me lol

[lilac stag]

I ignore the labels

[vestal escarp]

🖕

[red vortex]

[iron whale]

so um... are you guys enjoying sub in prepatch?

because honestly, I thought I was excited for the changes and I generally like less bloating but

feels so fucking boring and the wpvp experiences I had were so miserablew

[placid elk]

i don't, it makes me sad

[iron whale]

Shadowstrike and Secret Technique being 2 out of 3 CORE abilities now and sharing the exact same animation

looks so repetitive and visually BORING, jesus fuck

[placid elk]

you could go ret paladin now, its harder to play

oh how far we have fallen

[iron whale]

yeah it's literally 3 button now

[red vortex]

We are 4

[placid elk]

i hope its undertuned to shit so it sees no play

can't believe im saying this but buff outlaw

at least that one still feels like rogue