subtlety

[short radish]

and generally, you're always pressing the things at the same time/points anyway

so you get used to how many times it can be pressed

[ivory vigil]

that's a good way to look at it and not be overwhelmed, thanks.

[short radish]

it's a bit of a shit crop

and hard to count

but you see how outside the flag

everyone always uses 2 dances inbetween the first flag

and then usually 2 flags betwen the 2nd flag (can be 1)

it's almost never worth to send a naked sectech + symbols so just ignore it

like you're better off sitting on them for 10 seconds

[thorny stump]

it says to use storm in aoe but then i dont get unseen blade procs

[short radish]

and not fucking up your next burst

[hoary stag]

714 ilvl, have hero prism, been using it in tandem with shadowblades and 18 stacks, but usually when that happens it is low to mid pull and not one of those big ones

[short radish]

then sending them and not having your burst done properly

[jade summit]

thats super helpful actually ty fimbul

[hazy lichen]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[short radish]

so as long as youre casting no more than 2 dances inbetween your flags

youre kinda good

you can kinda cast them back to back

or you can cast them a bit further apart

it doesn't really matter

you see the r8 one casted his 2nd one super late

compared to the other ones

and its still fine

sub seems complex on paper and lots of cooldowns to manage

but things kinda just slot into place

if you follow a prio

[hazy lichen]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[short radish]

you dont use storm in aoe

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[hazy lichen]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[daring marlin]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[thorny stump]

o really? so just backstab?

[hazy lichen]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[short radish]

you dont use storm in aoe when in dance*

and you dont do damage outside of dance

[hazy lichen]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[thorny stump]

so you use storm outside of dance?

XD

[hazy lichen]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[hazy lichen]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[hazy lichen]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[hazy lichen]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[hazy lichen]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[hazy lichen]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[hazy lichen]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[dusk stone]

did they fix eco dome

[cloud rover]

Yes

[short radish]

yeah

[shadow lance]

Try to use on 9 stacks

And you prolly doing something wrong in rotation

If you got a log or something

[wispy crystal]

love rogues in keys! +15s
Elusiveness is so OP, love it.
too bad we wiped on Dawnbreaker 2nd boss cause druid decided to aim the ball to the side.

[azure thicket]

yeah it feels like cheat death is only good for recovering from low kicks/skill issue

elu definitely hwins

[wispy crystal]

such a nice feeling when you beat Frost DKs on DPS. both AOE and in ST too

only in M+ though. same cant be said for pure ST raid fights 🙁

[daring marlin]

I was remembering outlaw or sin being at the top part on st, why rogue is so ass right now

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/always-has-been-among-us-astronaut-space-betrayal-gif-23836476

[limpid sage]

Idk I still play Cheat death. Feels too shit to die with prism

[daring marlin]

I am so bored, i dont have even heroic forge and we are so far away from killing m araz

And my guild trolled me by benching me on 1st boss assuming we could kill loom

Guess what we couldnt

[hoary stag]

no but ill try to make one next time im in 12/13

[cloud rover]

Everything else was buffed?

[daring marlin]

probably not

[vale pine]

The image host service seems to work in your region, not much i can do about.
Where are you from? because i did not know this problem existed at all

[alpine wraith]

he is from the land of the biscuit

[wispy crystal]

how do you lose to a Sub rogue as a BM hunter and Frost DK in Dawnbreaker +15?

Are we expected to pull top damage in most keys?

and these pugs say they want a "hero class". I literally sit in queue for 30mins to 1 hr each day

only to get declined over and over again

[alpine wraith]

you know

you can do your own key

unless you are in that kinda range where you want title then rogue will be rough yea

[wispy crystal]

i messed up my own key doing reducing it to a +10 just to earn 30k gold

[alpine wraith]

the decline sim is messed up

oof

i just do weekly 12s

and yea you find interesting people

[stone patrol]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dry plank]

Dawnbreaker route synergies with sub cds very well

[wispy crystal]

the cooldowns are up almost every pack. feels really good

[dry plank]

When you will go to high keys and met not fotm rerollers but really good dk you will see the difference immediately

For example this dk is fotm reroller

[dusk stone]

elusiveness on its own is ok, when you combine it with exhilarating execution you are tankier than most things

from what i see often, more than dks as well

10% hp extra and the healing

[bitter dagger]

Just want to point out, some people including myself only kick at the end of the mobs cast to buy as much time as possible while others will kick asap and will then simply get more kicks out in a dungeon

[karmic harbor]

DB is a good dungeon for sub, but a lot of people are just really bad at the game

[dry plank]

Melee should kick insta and ranges at last to cover or range casters or you need marks and assignment which is not about pugs

[random comet]

same as always, hunter and fdk are fotm, no one is playing sub because they think its meta so the majority are longer term spec enjoyers

nothing is as bleak as when mage is meta though

[karmic harbor]

Mage is meta rn

[dusk stone]

yeah getting parses as sub is rough

you only compete against the try hards

i got 9.6 in ara kara and was only 97

[random comet]

yeah and its bleak, why else do you think we get so many screencaps of arcane doing zero prio

[dusk stone]

bro the amount of mid arcanes is crazy

you look at kiras group or others and arcane is competing in overall and i see mine and they are garbage

are arcanes only running sunfury? or are some doing spellslinger

[warm marlin]

Sunfury is the way

changes to spellslinger going into s3 kinda griefed it for keys and sunfurys tier is better

Even with how easy sunfury is though I would never invite pug mages

insane gamble

I still have nightmares from df3

[empty plume]

recently rolled a mage

it is not hard or complicated (sunfury)

but I have the same experience with pug mages being bad on avg

it is kinda worth if you want the prio mobs to die

[tribal blade]

how in the hell do you have more kicks than a prot pally

that's literally impossible unless he doesn't have a pulse

[vale pine]

XD

[dry plank]

Dunno m8 it is ecodome

[tribal blade]

yeah definitely doesn't have a pulse haha

i'm used to seeing them do 3 times the kicks of the 2nd highest person

[tribal blade]

agreed you need to -100 points off an arcane mage for their actual score

[north schooner]

might be that all 27 were avenger's shield

[tribal blade]

maybe, so he doesn't have a pulse is accurate 😉

[north schooner]

the best interrupt is death

[tribal blade]

if you get beaten in overall kicks you need your ppal card revoked

[north schooner]

if those prot pals could read they would be really upset

[tribal blade]

haha well ppal is actually pretty hard to play

you don't see a whole lot of people fotm rerolling to it for that reason

[jade summit]

Hey heads up to whoever programs the bots for this, "#Showtooltip" won't run, but "#showtooltip" will, this looks like the only macro line that's typoed like this

[tribal blade]

@vale pine

[north schooner]

@vale pine can you update that command?

the double ping

[tribal blade]

haha nice

[limpid sage]

what kinda dmg gets filtered from nexus king logs?

[vale pine]

will fix, moment

[limpid sage]

nvm it was because the logger was on the other platform xd

[tribal blade]

yeah i was gonna say i didn't think anything got filtered on that fight

there's no "pad" adds

[vale pine]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[vale pine]

done

[limpid sage]

7k dps away from a 100 T_T

pls give forge

[sweet turret]

I saw some top Sub Rogues with Algari Mana Oil on their weapons, do you know why? Isnt the Whetstone better?

[cloud rover]

Sim angle

[golden totem]

Probably some sin player who did not bother changing oils

[sweet turret]

It was Kusshh - Method
he is sub main

[short radish]

mana oil was simming ahead for a bit at the start of this season

its kinda whatever though

[ivory vigil]

i like bubbling wax

[hollow spear]

Wax + oil sims highest for me

But it's all pretty whatever

[ivory vigil]

I only like it because it's rogue only. Class fantasy > dps

[night sparrow]

Isnt Coup GcD actually 1.1 ?

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[wispy crystal]

is Priory a difficult dungeon for Sub rogues? feel like i get outsmashed there by other classes

the consecration with the paladins is a nightmare to deal with as melee

[north schooner]

1,2

[strong kernel]

Is Dslice sim somewhat reliable for Sub?

[alpine wraith]

priory problem is more the footmen can cuck you

[lilac stag]

Stack on the tank

[alpine wraith]

so not sending sec techs or coups into a 70% dr is very important

[wispy crystal]

ahhh thats why my damage is so low in Priory

[alpine wraith]

likely

[hollow spear]

Stops have to be on point

[limpid sage]

these are my stat weights. I guess we've just hit that part of the expansion where even haste is competitive to main stat

[shadow lance]

You can stay in the circle of consecration

You only take damages 1 sec after it pops

[cloud rover]

I think you miht like some points of Crit

[stone patrol]

But this not saving a key or? Or can we use that ALWAYS we enter Dance?

[night sparrow]

When I check my logs it is clearly 1.1 despite the fact everyone says 1.2, can anyone confirm or .. ?

[fleet wharf]

A trick I recently learned is that you can stand in consecration circles as they come out and move before the first tick happens. There's no damage to when the spell comes out.

[analog granite]

Is sub the best rogue spec for pushing m+ atm? When I looked at the top runs there also seemed to be some asso so I'm not sure

[vale pine]

yes

well best rogue spec

but not best spec as in meta spec

tho be warned, cooldown management is important on subtlety and doing so poorly will result in not that great output

[cloud rover]

Yeah

Especially in Pugs

where you dont know how the tank pulls

[vale pine]

hey, don't be insulting to your guildies. They can also pull poorly ^^

[cloud rover]

True

But i can tell them pull more

or i just pull more

[vale pine]

and then die because you got an aa

because you thought you did stand outside of melee range but didn't

[cloud rover]

Shuriken toss

But its crazy how much variance a tank makes

like 2 Million dps difference in eco dome

[fleet wharf]

that's just melee life tho

[vale pine]

tbh it is for everyone

[cloud rover]

Yeah of course

[vale pine]

how big and good a tank pulls impacts your overall a LOT

can be 6-7M vs. 9-12M overall

same dungeon

[fleet wharf]

As a rogue it is nice to just say fuck it to mechanics sometimes and pop cloak if you might lose uptime otherwise

[azure thicket]

8mil and change cause tank was sending adds into every boss on eco dome

[cloud rover]

I mean i play alos double on use

which also isnt ideal if you cant pop your cds on cooldown

[azure thicket]

even a single add is worth 15m on like priory last

[cloud rover]

i had a 14 Minute Eco dome 10 yesterday with a good tank

and got an 26 Minute Eco dome 10 after that

with a bad tank

[azure thicket]

nuts

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-ride-gif-17999608

[analog granite]

Do you mean another rogue spec is "meta" or that not a single of the rogue specs is

[fleet wharf]

Latter. it's hard to get into groups

[analog granite]

My main is actually dk but suddenly it's fotm and I feel filthy to play it

[fleet wharf]

I'd play that more this season*. You never know what the future has in store lol

[vale pine]

i mean rogue is not super meta

[analog granite]

Yeah I'm playing it right now but was looking to pick up another spec to play as alt

[vale pine]

you will find keys as sub rogue

[analog granite]

And apart from dk I only ever play rogue or lock

[azure thicket]

still sad that people are standing in front of the spider in 15 ara though

[vale pine]

but DH, Hunter, Mage and DK's are currently the classes with high chances to get invited

[azure thicket]

parallel park it and hit stuff

[plush jackal]

regarding this

i have like one vanish, the hell i do when tank chain pulls almost every pack

[tepid trellis]

u keep blasting

[vale pine]

vanish does nothing for you

so you just play as usual

you don't get the first dance after vanish

as you need 6 seconds out of combat

to make things worse

some packs or mobs will put you in combat, stopping the timer

[plush jackal]

yeah fr I've seen that

[vale pine]

while this can be seen as annoying, it is not rly something to be super concerned about

[limpid sage]

I vanish if I have 18 stack prism send coming up

[vale pine]

what we talk about above is less about stealth tho

but more about how big a tank pulls

and how well pulls align to your cooldowns

having your cooldowns for big pulls makes a noticable diffrence

[limpid sage]

oh I thought that comment was about resetting TFD

didn't read the rest

[vale pine]

tfd is just weirdly designed, i personally don't understand why its designed this way

but there is surely a reason

my assumption is pvp

but if thats the case, outlaw and assassination both would have additional constraints on their "stealth" required spells

i would image

[karmic harbor]

they gotta make smoke bomb work in pve

it wont be op i promise

[vale pine]

we had smoke bomb in pve

in WoD

[plush jackal]

also I've watched yesterday some guy, and he played shuriken tornado, saddly he didnt link his build or anything i just noticed he had it on like +16

[wet echo]

i feel like a smoke bomb mechanic should exist in pve, although i wouldn't mind it being even on a different class, given our usual strong utility

[cloud rover]

Also MoP

[vale pine]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[north marlin]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[cloud rover]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[upper cosmos]

which guide has the most info from discord commands in them like about coup and tfd?

[vale pine]

all of them should have about the same information

[muted kindle]

Where do you guys tend to macro your potions into?

[vale pine]

i can additionally give you this, something i might incoprarate in a section on wowhead in the future because cooldown management is complicated

[vale pine]

blades

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[vale pine]

is another good point of information

trinket use is also part of your planing

i will use this a bit out of context of the original message

but towards cooldown management, all the fights that are labled with a green checkmark

are fights with add spawns or damage vulnerability events

so a good baseline on the fights is to "hold cooldowns for adds/vulnerability"

ofc you need to be careful with that

https://www.lorrgs.io/

^ this website is nice when trying to improve, it is easy to see how top logs handle cooldowns on it

so recommend using that

if you play keys mainly, try to not hold cooldowns for too long, it is a super common mistake to keep delaying cooldowns

(worse case i saw was delaying 90 sec coodowns for ~2 minutes)

[upper cosmos]

uhh sorry about all this I just wanted to know which guide I could link to someone if they just wanted a guide and not to join discord to read the extra stuff from commands

the cd's lorrgs and prism stuff I've seen before alr but thanks 👍

[sinful depot]

New utility idea
Blind means mobs can’t cast for 5 seconds following blind. Makes sense..

[vale pine]

ahh perfectly fine, you can also just screenshot what i wrote. As it might help

[limpid sage]

actually would be cool if you gave them vision loss for some seconds after

working like smoke bomb, except per mob

so they have to walk into melee range

(I know that's not what you wrote though)

[upper cosmos]

one thing I am curious about though is from doing the 2nd sec tec in tfd I feel like I have enough cdr to get an extra dance and sectec before 1:30. I think that's because my dance after tfd I just let the 2nd symbols I pressed during tfd keep rolling and don't press it again to charge the next dance+sectec. is that normal?

[hazy breach]

The sooner you press sectech the more value you get out of the flawless form stacks from disorienting strikes and the more likely it is that you get your coups to be inside blades+trinket

[mental minnow]

Hello, I have a question. I actually play Rogue Sub and I have like 23060 mastery (100%), 25708 poly (33%), and like 4630 crit (19%). I have almost only enchant and gem for poly crit, but I don't know if maybe over it. Like should I seek more mastery or crit if someone has the stat about mastery cap or something like this ? Thx for ur time 🙂

[vale pine]

best for gems/gear is to just run a sim

there is no magical cap you stop using any stat

[upper cosmos]

so I should try to get 5 sectecs in before 1:30 so long as I still have enough sod & dances for next burst window?

cause I can and have been, it's just that the 3rd sectec isn't charged (still during a symbols + dance though)

[hazy breach]

I dont really understand what youre asking, if you are dancing your sectech should be supercharged

But you shouldnt really be thinking "i must get x sectechs inside y"

[strong kernel]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

Its just, if your spells are up and you can cast them without screwing over your next flag+blades window

Then go ahead and cast them

[alpine wraith]

stats dont matter much just do top gear and use that

[upper cosmos]

it's cause I still have extra duration on my 2nd symbols cast that I spent to fit in and charge my cb+sectec during tfd. and I use that in my next dance w/o pressing it

[alpine wraith]

yea that is how it works

what is the issue

you just do the second dance with the pandemic+normal duration of the second symbols

[hazy breach]

Again, i dont understand what you mean, you wont have symbols for all that third dance if you dont use it again, and when youre using it you want to supercharge your sectech

[upper cosmos]

yeah I'm just wondering if it's done with just the pandemic+normal duration or if I should press symbols again to charge the 3rd sectec

[limpid sage]

Don't you also pandemic your previous symbols?

[tribal blade]

we don't worry about symbols pandemic anymore

only supercharging sectec matters

[limpid sage]

APL does I'm pretty sure

[tribal blade]

oh does it? interesting

[hazy breach]

Yesnt

[tribal blade]

i feel like you aren't in danger of wasting too much symbols duration while in cds

[hazy breach]

Its threshold is higher than pandemic

But its to make sure it doesnt double use symbols

But like, the pandemic thing automically lines up well if you just use it for sectech anyway

[tribal blade]

that's what i assumed yeah

[upper cosmos]

4 Dance 4 Dance
4 SoD vs 5 SoD
5 Sectec 5 Sectec
before 1:30 is what I'm asking

[alpine wraith]

yea even if you omegahighroll you still use symbols with like 3 or 4 secs left on it

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[tribal blade]

btw doing the prep for hardmode bosses is actually so much fun

go into those bosses with 14 sht, 7 supercharger and 18 prism stacks

[upper cosmos]

okay cool cause I have been doing the left one

[limpid sage]

do you guys think it's worth to pop symbols as soon as key starts to get the symbols cd rolling and getting supercharged? (for dungeons like arakara, eco, hoa)

[hazy breach]

Just do it before

Or you mean the 3rd and 4th ig

Sure

[limpid sage]

ye but then it resets down to 2 SC cps

[tribal blade]

i don't think there's any dungeon where you can have symbols rolling into the 1st pull

[limpid sage]

ye 3rd and 4th

[tribal blade]

oh right

MMMM you're cooking

i like it

i'm gonna start doing that

[alpine wraith]

yes you can also do on some flying on dawnbreaker etc

[tribal blade]

true i keep forgetting about doing that too

[alpine wraith]

just make sure you use sod after bubble opens

otherwise it resets back to 2

[limpid sage]

and I also wonder if it's worth not sending rupture if it's a giga pull and just stack ShT

[alpine wraith]

that i cant tell

rupture does a lot of dmg

[hazy breach]

I still dont understand what youre asking about

[tribal blade]

i guess if you're doing a massive pull throwing out some early ruptures are less impact than having more supercharged finishers in cds?

[upper cosmos]

I have been doing the 4 sod instead of 5 which means my 3rd sectec isn't charged since I'm using it during the last 3-4s of the 2nd sod

[limpid sage]

ye the thing is that they're also buffed during your cds

[hazy breach]

But like why would it be 4 or 5 matter

Like

[tribal blade]

that's also true

[limpid sage]

so it boils down to BP vs Rupture on very large pulls

[tribal blade]

maybe factor in how long the gather is

like 1st pull ara

spreading rupture is pretty big because of how long the gather is

[hazy breach]

The thing you care about is being able to use 2x symbols, 2x dances and 2x sectechs during your cds, with dances being back-to-back

[limpid sage]

does have the added effect of you stacking escalating blades since you don't wanna spam storm while capped on cp though

[hazy breach]

If you cannot do that, you used to much inbetween

If you can, then its fine

[tribal blade]

i honestly don't preplan symbols+dance usage between cds at all, i just play by what i see i can have left for next cd set

in keys

[upper cosmos]

what I've been doing let's me get the 2x sod/dance/sectec for my cds, I was just wondering if a 5th sod would still let me do that

[hazy breach]

You should supercharge any sectechs you do while dancing

[limpid sage]

same here

[tribal blade]

raid kinda different a bit

[limpid sage]

this season you can eyeball it way more than last I feel

[hazy breach]

If you dont symbols for your third sectech

Youll be running of out symbols mid dance

[limpid sage]

because dances and symbols go hand in hand

[hazy breach]

And that just doesnt make any sense

[tribal blade]

one of the best things about this tier set is not having skyfury hurts less than before

[upper cosmos]

I run out after my 3rd sec tec so like 1-2 globals in dance aren't with symbols

[hazy breach]

Ye and thats bad

The solution to your problem isnt to not symbols during dance, its to not symbols somewhere else

Which is why im saying to not think about it in strict "x amount of casts every 90s", because on pull youll have more charges than you will later on

And you should be thinking about it more in terms of how long is left on blades/flag

[tribal blade]

it's actually a lot less processing power if you think of it that way

[alpine wraith]

yea just think in your mind SoD= sec tech somewhat

dances come and go

yea just watch someone do a boss for a bit

even if it is only wipes

you will see it being very consistent

[limpid sage]

you should just be matching symbols against your current flag cd

if you'll overcap on symbols by the time flag is up, just send

[tribal blade]

i was helping guildies do a 14 eco today and completely spaced because i was on autopilot

i sent a dance+symbols and put dance on a 50ish sec cd and flag was coming up in a few seconds

WHOOPS

luckily it was at the end of a pull so i could spend the gather desperately getting dance cd down

[limpid sage]

it's the worst

[tribal blade]

it's quite easy to do if you're not paying attention

or if you're a goober like me sometimes

[wispy crystal]

How does sub rogues do in floodgate?

Do we do well there ?

I know we do good in dawnbreaker

[limpid sage]

ye we go crazy in flood

[tribal blade]

sub is good in every dungeon atm

[wispy crystal]

Also for dawnbreaker the mini boss before 3rd boss. Do we pop blades/flag on it, or save for the final boss?

[tribal blade]

send

that mini boss is big danger

[wispy crystal]

Sweet that's glad to hear. Trying to improve my chances of getting into a 15 flood / dawnbreaker. That's the only 2 keys left for 3300

[hazy breach]

Generally as long as your targets dont die mid cooldowns you should send

[tribal blade]

you'll also find if you sit on cds as sub too much your dps goes stright into the toilet

[wispy crystal]

Okay got it. Will do. Dawnbreaker has quite a few mini bosses. Basically send flag/blades on all of them right ?

[tribal blade]

yeah always

once you do DB on a high enough key level you don't really need to plan your cds at all

[storm field]

how does everyone not lose the target you used flagellation on? To interrupt other targets u gotta go off the target you used flag on

[tribal blade]

they just naturally line up

because of 1.5 min cd and traveling time

you can pretty much have cds on every single pull in DB

minus maybe 1-2

[limpid sage]

you don't have to hit the target you used flag on

[storm field]

oh

[limpid sage]

ofc it's a good idea to use it on prio target, but the main effect is the mastery by far

[storm field]

ah I see

[tribal blade]

still sad flag doesn't do big lash dmg like SL

[upper cosmos]

actually I was wrong, my 2nd symbols does cover my whole 2nd dance after all

[lilac stag]

Focus kick or mouseover kick your interrupts

[hazy breach]

What

[wispy crystal]

I'm currently pushing 15s for DB

[hazy breach]

Ofc it does

[alpine wraith]

yea the guy was drunk as f

[tribal blade]

15 is a bit iffier, depends on how much dmg your group does

[limpid sage]

ya I remember 15 being the first breakpoint of where I had to focus on actually doing mechanics

besides not oneshotting myself in a 10 PSF on the reflect lady

[tribal blade]

i found up to 16s to be piss easy

[wispy crystal]

Just curious, during blades / flag.

Sometimes after the first Shadowdance, the next sTec is still on cooldown.

Do I just Evis without dance to bring it off Cd?

Or continue the 2nd dance, use my Evis in the dance to reduce sTec CD. Then when CD, symbols + sTec?

[tribal blade]

and then 17s suddenly became hard

[hazy breach]

You use dance immediately once dance ends

And you use sectech whenever its ready

Symbols when sectech has less than 10 seconds left

[limpid sage]

ye everything but flood, psf and hoa prenerf

[wispy crystal]

Ok so continue the second dance.

I don't wanna waste symbols on Evis though.

[hazy breach]

Theres 2 supercharged points

[wispy crystal]

So wanna symbols and then sTec or at most use Evis 1x for the supercharged points

[wispy crystal]

Ya cause I need to save 1 super charger for sTec minimally

[soft oriole]

Anyone know if feint without elusiveness works on the claw swipe on nexus king? I'm like 100 pulls in and not actually tested that yet lol

[hazy breach]

!def

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Defensive Spreadsheet: > Click to open <

[soft oriole]

Holy that is a god send

thank you

Evasion really gotta be reworked lmao

[tribal blade]

i think it's fine the way it is

honestly maybe the cd could be reduced

[dusty totem]

True

It is only 20% dr

2 min is a bit long

[tribal blade]

yeah, but we also have feint on 2 charges on 15 secs

which is already a lot

[dusty totem]

Yeah faint is crazy good

[spare crypt]

Hey, is CDG proccing shadowcraft slightly bugged? Playing on normal ping, but sometimes I get the combo point refresh at such a delay that it's well after GCD ends

[tribal blade]

i would say reduce the cd on cloak too

because how is dk's ams that crazy short cd

they gradually increased the cd on cloak from what, 1 min up to 2 mins

but if anything blizz probably wants to move in the direction of taking away personal defensives

[hazy breach]

It can refund on any damage event from coup, which happens at cast, 0.4s later and 0.9s later

So when youre casting coup you need to beware that any proc you get that takes you from 5 to 7 in the middle of the coup cast will result in a refund

(this is a bug and shoulve been fixed ages ago, but alas)

[spare crypt]

Thanks, that would explain the mismatches in occurence

[north schooner]

they will fix it for midnight for sure ( )

[spare crypt]

worth holding the next skill press (builder vs. finisher) a bit after gcd to avoid using a builder with shadowcraft proc?

[tribal blade]

i do that sometimes when i'm very sure a refund is incoming

[hazy breach]

It still happens during the gcd, not after

As coup is 1.2 seconds, not the usual 1 second (again, a bug)

[crystal bone]

[spare crypt]

yeah but if it occurs on the last cdg hit, I'll occasionally not catch it in time and send the builder

could be skill issue

doesnt happen often but mighty annoying when it does

[hazy breach]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[hazy breach]

Can use the cdg bar here to see the cast of it clearly

That might help

But yeah not much else to do besides "git gud" and dont accidently waste it unfortunately, just hope blizzard adresses it but i wouldnt hold my breath

Seeing as its been bugged for over 2 years now

[north schooner]

I dunno, coup's gcd doesn't seem like a bug, but no idea why they added a longer gcd other than the 3rd hit being so late

[hazy breach]

Idk its stupid either way, especially with tier

So many people miss globals in dance/blades now

[north schooner]

also why is a mercy blow a 3 strike combo? the name makes no sense!

[hazy breach]

Its kinda impossible to not miss unless you use macros to use things at the exact same time

[plush roost]

I procced a no comms just win 19 streets hoa gamibno last night xD

[alpine wraith]

big

[plush roost]

Almost 7.4m in streets on logs xd

[limpid sage]

how do you proc this

[fleet wharf]

I think I saw you and ryldd talk about it, is it that macro with case sequence null thing?

[north schooner]

it's also bad with CB

[plush roost]

Sub is weak tho dont bring it

Smile

[hazy breach]

#1065728795455266888 message

[alpine wraith]

yea those 0.x add up

and you already didnt have a lot of leeway

[tribal blade]

it's so hard to get into anything right now i'm finding

can't compete with all these other specs bringing raid buffs

and utility

[limpid sage]

I wonder how big of an increase it would be for them to fix Coup

[slate marlin]

Buff eviscerate

[alpine wraith]

coup still has some bugs even now

same with nimble

but i think it is just joever for now

with changes

[plush roost]

Imagine if coup actually worked with finality

[alpine wraith]

mayb next expansion

it does work just badly

kek

[spare crypt]

overall spec feels good to play, other than coup

[plush roost]

Isnt like half the coup

Not fi ality buffed

[alpine wraith]

well it works like this

you have finality it buffs first hit

you dont have finality you get finality first hit then use it on second

shame a lot fo the dmg is on the THIRD hit

XD

[plush roost]

Xd

[hazy breach]

Yeah spec feels really good to play, just a bunch of unnecessary rough edges

[plush roost]

Yeee

[alpine wraith]

sometimes it is what it is

[plush roost]

I still think they make shuriken storm less energy

[alpine wraith]

i just hope MS AI can help with tuning

[plush roost]

Haha

[alpine wraith]

as their people doing it are not that productive

i do more changes in 1 week than them in 1 year

likely lots of corpa bs

[plush roost]

Chatgpt fix sub:

Shuriken Tornado now is a hurricane.

[alpine wraith]

shuriken tornado now extends per cp spent

brrr tornadoooo

[plush roost]

BUT

[hazy breach]

Remove find weakness and suddenly one of the biggest rough edges for aoe is gone, and like 1/4 of all the bugs also dissapear

[alpine wraith]

find weaknes and shadowed

on god

let them die

the sepsis way

[plush roost]

Relenetless strikes is disabled during tornado

Just for

Unnecesarry

Reasons

[alpine wraith]

that would just make tea good

we cant have that in here

this is a christian spec where no talents can be good

[plush roost]

Btw slight minmaxxy question

In aoe

When we proc really good in cds

How many storms between sectec/coups allowed

Before its inefficient

[hazy breach]

the !coup thing? generally you'd only use 1 and not 2

Because using more storms means your coups are likely to happen later and outside blades

[plush roost]

Like if we have coup prepped, and we go sec tec storm coup storm coup its inefficient compared to just losing escalating blades stacks

[alpine wraith]

i only storm pre coup if i have the 2 in a row ready

or 5 sht

[hazy breach]

Ideally one of those should be a refund

[alpine wraith]

otherwise just coup storm coup

[hazy breach]

But thats where tornado is good

[plush roost]

Youre not catching me playing tornado hrhe

[alpine wraith]

i like tornado when i can sec tech natty

spread ruptures then get some unseens and go ham then

[hazy breach]

Nado > sectech > coup > coup > bp > bonk

Really strong when you can use it like the !coup storm

[alpine wraith]

but dont let people know

otherwise they will steal our secrets

[tribal blade]

mm that actually makes me interested in using nado again

[plush roost]

Yeah but like what if we end up going 14 sht coup prepped flag rupture storm sectec coup coup strike evis strike coup storm sec tec storm coup

That second set is 2 storms too many

I have that occur in the backend of cds pretty commonly

[maiden oar]

how many stacks of prism is > araz? i dont really understand the rate of decay very well

[hazy breach]

~8

[maiden oar]

thanks

[plush roost]

What about heroic prism to myth araz

[alpine wraith]

araz is a bit weird for us because we ramp

and it decays

[hazy breach]

The storm before sectech should probably be a strike

[alpine wraith]

so we are not super users of it

[hazy breach]

But i dont think it matters that much

[maiden oar]

yeah

[alpine wraith]

but other trinkets are also not super good either

[maiden oar]

idk how to figure this out without just guessing hehe

[plush roost]

So it is a lil inefficient in dam

[hazy breach]

slightly less

[plush roost]

I see

[azure thicket]

so uh is exhilerating execution good?

[plush roost]

Yes

[hazy breach]

Well its better to "waste" a stack of coup but fit the coups inside blades because it procced earlier

[tribal blade]

it's amazing in aoe

press BP and big heals

[azure thicket]

take over ephemeral bond good?

[hazy breach]

Than to get 1 more stack but have to use it outside blades

[azure thicket]

ye trying

[hazy breach]

Same as if its the last gcd of dance most of the time

[tribal blade]

depends what you want in raid, usually bond is better in raid

because you have 3-5 healers on you

[plush roost]

Well the storm/strike fulfill the same cp generation but strike is more overall damage

[tribal blade]

and exhil is less good in pure ST

[plush roost]

I see

[azure thicket]

ye but i can't remember the last time dying happened to boss mechanics in keys

esp if ppl are sending into m+ bosses as they do

[plush roost]

Was just curious since you can drag more coups out in m+ in your next dance if u hold an escalating but yeah its probably inefficient

And the coup cdr in m+ is actually turbo value since you naked dance a lot

But i think youre right the strike in dance with sblades and all the macabre stacks

Probably makes up for it

[tribal blade]

imagine if we could stack escalating beyond 4

[plush roost]

Degenerate shit would occur

[tribal blade]

lol prob true

[plush roost]

Blessing in disguise

Just letting us stack while the second coup is active would be nice

[tribal blade]

yeah that would be hot too

[alpine wraith]

they learnt from our shadow rupture escapades

like wtf these guys

cant they just PLAY THE GAME

[plush roost]

Haha the legendary 3 ruptures in a row to guarantee

Insane gaming

[alpine wraith]

you gambaed for the third one

was 66% good oods

[plush roost]

Ur right i forgor how many

[tribal blade]

i would take double coup tier set over shadow ruptures any day of the week

[plush roost]

Getting shadowed rupture with ashes during smolderon amp

[alpine wraith]

anyone would

[plush roost]

Ohmylord

[limpid sage]

ye should just be a buff on it's own

[tribal blade]

it's a good feelling for sub to be this close to being "perfect" gameplay wise though

for the past few years it's felt like we've been playing the game wishing 50% of our tool kit was revamped

[plush roost]

Cant wait for alpha to see them mess it all up again

Subtlety: Roll the Bones is now acquired at level 21

[tepid trellis]

wonder if i get alpha access again

[tribal blade]

t r u e

[vale pine]

hope you get it at one point

think first wave will be mostly family and friends

[hazy breach]

Surely the new apex talents for sub go hard

Right?

[tribal blade]

there's no way we get a repeat of TWW beta

[limpid sage]

It's gonna be voidstalker

[hazy breach]

Theyll be good with some obvious flaw/bug that makes it feel bad that wont be fixed until season 2

[azure thicket]

33m on 2nd attendant with 18 stacks

[swift tinsel]

or it stays the whole xpac again

[vale pine]

worse case, nothing chanegs

[swift tinsel]

^I'm expecting this

[vale pine]

idk what to expect

maybe we get a tier set baseline?

[swift tinsel]

I like scaths idea of prism as a talent

[limpid sage]

yes but it's undermine tier set

[vale pine]

XD

[swift tinsel]

would be the biggest windmill dunk

[swift tinsel]

lmao I secretly thought that too bc that's 100% a thing blizz would do

[limpid sage]

except it falls off during dance as well

[swift tinsel]

and its 1% per stack

and removes all shadow damage from blades bc of a bug that never gets fixed

[final vigil]

Hello, i'm very new to rogue and sub, I've been watching guides and I have a question, do u always line up dance and symbol ? if so is there something that prevent to cast them both in a macro ?

[limpid sage]

blades is now phys dmg

[swift tinsel]

and gets reduced twice by armor

find weakness 15% now instead of 30% and only applies from crit backstab from the front

[limpid sage]

and fazed now allows you to get parried from the back

[swift tinsel]

and now makes every melee in your raid get parried 100% of the time

even Kingsbane/Colossus Smash

and directly buffs ret by 12%

[graceful osprey]

I’ll be honest, I didn’t like undermine set

[swift tinsel]

and mm too fuck it we ball

[limpid sage]

no one did xd

[graceful osprey]

And even then, manaforge set is kinda meh for me as well

[limpid sage]

take that back

[fathom adder]

i think there will be some changes. They seem not to like the cd situation right now with 2 used at the same time, as well as the weakaura outlaw situation. Excited to see what will come. But in the end, i am just guessing, who knows

[swift tinsel]

MFO set owns wym

[graceful osprey]

I mean the double coup is cool

[swift tinsel]

double coup cool, double UB cool

[fathom adder]

i would be happy with more dance cdr, more energyreg like before the rework and/or the possibility for more sustain/dmg outside of dance like df s1/2

[swift tinsel]

plus bigger dam

[graceful osprey]

Maybe, what if, double coup becomes one of the apex talents?

[swift tinsel]

I wouldn't be mad if it did

if it allowed UB to stack in the interim

by making it a unique buff/spellID

which I said they should do on like day 1 of ptr

but

[graceful osprey]

I’m starting the Copium early for 12.0

[edgy zenith]

we're gonna get tea and CB, that's a win in my book

[swift tinsel]

I'm at the point where I'm looking for a reason to come back for 12.0 vs reasons to stay

kinda over wow atm

[cursive island]

During cds, you want to cast dance directly after it fades, and Symbols when ST is <10sec cd. So no Macro

[lucid jackal]

Well double coup can't be an apex talent

But it might be new hero talents

[worn blade]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[final vigil]

okay tyvm

[hazy breach]

Assuming nothing changes to the vanish row yeah

[edgy zenith]

bold of you to assume a rework

[hazy breach]

I dont have any secret info, but i highly highly doubt that row (and stealth in general) is gonna go completely unchanged

Its by far the most common complaint about rogue

I have no idea what theyre gonna do, but i would be insanely surprised if they dont change stealth (and thus the surounding mechanics) at all

[vale pine]

to be fair

i would not have guessed a subterfuge rework only for 1/2 specs it was irrelevant on

so you can't rly expect much

[azure thicket]

just had a 5.3 earthquake the island over from us that ride gif is cursed

cursed i says

[opal basalt]

i really feel like i should drop something for more vers

but robot doesnt tell me to

so i cannot

[analog granite]

Wth are apex talents?

[opal basalt]

next expac feature

[hazy breach]

Basicly new talent points in the spec tree

Yeah next expansion

[odd mica]

Hey, do I sim dungeonslice or is it bad on sub ? thanks 🙂

[hazy breach]

Its fine on sub ye

[analog granite]

And they're going to be like capstones at the end of regular talent tree in strength and how impactful they are or?

Like design wise

[hazy breach]

Probably capstone like

But who knows

Hopefully well see tomorrow when they talk about it

[wispy crystal]

anyone have a m+ dungeon tier list?

like best dungeons for sub and worst

personally i dislike priory a lot

favourite m+ would probably be dawnbreaker

[wet echo]

dawn is great cuz you have guaranteed TFD procs with standard route

priory is big pulls tho which can be super fun

[dreamy badger]

Cant wait for apex goremaw

[chrome palm]

Goremaws chomp

[hazy breach]

I suspect its not gonna be an extra button as people are already complaining about too many buttons

[shadow lance]

Soon people gonna ask a keybind tierlist

[chrome palm]

I really hope they do something like remove auto proc tea and make it like sbs and just auto trigger from dance with no macro

[hazy breach]

I would love something that made dance have like a WOD-ring type effect where it stores damage and then does a big boom based on how much damage you did, like a grand finale type shit

But i dont think theyll do that, too abusable and OP

[swift tinsel]

that'd be pretty cool

nice ToD/Galeburst effect

[hazy breach]

Same with CB

[swift tinsel]

^^

[dreamy badger]

The only thing i want, is coup not having 3 hits

Or whatever it is

Just make it 1

[swift tinsel]

No FW

or SF

would be the biggest wins

[chrome palm]

Yeah, how would you make cb passive?

First finisher after hitting symbols or something?

[swift tinsel]

only apply to sectech

but does so while in Dance

[hazy breach]

"During shadow blades your secret techniques have a 100% crit chance"

[swift tinsel]

so any sectech in dance auto-crits

[wet echo]

yea, just remove all delayed hits

[chrome palm]

Oh that’s good yeah

[swift tinsel]

make sectech one big shadow nuke, no phys/clones

[dreamy badger]

Full mastery vers stack here i come

[swift tinsel]

can have clones be purely cosmetic

[sullen hare]

We already do that?...

[hazy breach]

I mean thats practically the same as it is right now

[dreamy badger]

Literal nuke pls

[hazy breach]

But yeah one big hit instead of small hits would go hard

[chrome palm]

Would require some special attention to the other specs which I think would kinda make inevitibile end a mute talent

[dreamy badger]

Nah we do a bit of crit

[swift tinsel]

remove anything with Akaari

[hazy breach]

But as long as they change the gameplay loop too much we'll be good, current gameplay is fun

[swift tinsel]

since it adds issues whenever we get a tier set that affects clones

[fair meadow]

quick question regarding Blessing of Autumn on Dimensius, what is the use of it? Do you have to keep CDs on second Plattform to have it on the burn phase in P3 without it?

[swift tinsel]

yeah if they keep things the same gameplay-wise and just smooth things out sub is perfect

consolidate the buttons

[hazy breach]

You can delay your cds on the second flatform a few globals to be able to hit the adds

[sullen hare]

Yeah, because of diminishing returns on stat weights at this ilvl, I'm pretty sure. At the beginning of midnight we'll probably go back to wholesome chungus mastery vers only

[hazy breach]

Is the main benefit

[swift tinsel]

change/remove Danse

bc its such bait to new players

[chrome palm]

I’d like to see the upper half the class tree replaced but that is unrealistic

[hazy breach]

But without autumn you also need to be really fast, and youll likely have to flag 1-2 seconds later into the amp which isnt ideal, but not the end of the world

[swift tinsel]

Idk I have more issues with the middle rows

[hazy breach]

The main difference is being able to blow up adds

[swift tinsel]

FW being the exception bc as a first node its doodoo

on top of being doodoo in general

but I'd really like to see a redo of the middle third of the tree

[fair meadow]

Thank you!

[swift tinsel]

ah I see you said class tree, yeah top section is real bleh

[chrome palm]

Yeah it’s either things that should be baseline or non choices

[edgy zenith]

they need to remove FW

such a headache

[chrome palm]

Stuff like spending two points on the shittiest aoe stop in the game would feel a lot worse if there was something else worth taking that had any tangible effect on raid or dungeons

[swift tinsel]

it made more sense when it was aoe kidney

but now its like elusiveness/cheat is the only actual choice we have up there

[karmic harbor]

somebody tell blizzard to make feint not cost energy

[swift tinsel]

we'd either lose a charge or get a way longer cd

[fossil forge]

📠

[azure thicket]

honestly acro during cooldowns

[swift tinsel]

eh

[azure thicket]

it's nice that sub is very specific but losing a global or two cause a sharpshooter jumped out or something is grief

then again haven't setup mouseover macros for shadowstrike or flag even

[swift tinsel]

mouseover flag sounds unnecessary

[golden totem]

Fw feels outdated

[swift tinsel]

it is

[azure thicket]

i've def not sent it dodging sawblades idk

[golden totem]

But parry still exists

[swift tinsel]

send it sooner or after sawblade spawn

[azure thicket]

hee

[swift tinsel]

long cast time should be easy to play around

[azure thicket]

ye or just don't be casting that before 2nd boss i guess idk

[short radish]

they could call it touch of the shadowblade

[fossil forge]

Shadowbeast proc.? 4873 gazilion dmg

[wispy crystal]

@short radish I saw your profile, you running mainly Vers/mast or Mast/Vers gems.

Is that better than trying to have all 4 gem colours?

And then Vers ring enchants over Mast ring enchants.

Quite min maxing here cause I suppose it's rather minor right ?

[short radish]

dont look at my profile

im stupid

and just enchant whatever

because idgaf about 0.2% difference

[wispy crystal]

Oh enchants are really 0.2% difference? 😆

[short radish]

probably

[wispy crystal]

I've been replacing my weapon enchants and spending so much gold every time the SIM changes

[short radish]

im pretty sure if i sim wiht algari + 4 gems

[swift tinsel]

gems/enchants are not big

[short radish]

its about 0.2-0.4% difference

but i kinda cbf

[wispy crystal]

I keep going from councils guile to oathsworn etc ..

[fossil forge]

U need all 4 gem colors to activate the lgbt dmg buff

[swift tinsel]

the damage buff from blasphemite is itty bitty too

[azure thicket]

craft shoulders

[swift tinsel]

movespeed op

[wispy crystal]

I have a green haste/mast gem so yeah it activates lol

[short radish]

yeah i was tempted to run that

but i think i move too fast sometimes

ive almost ran off the edge on dimensius

[swift tinsel]

I almost run off the edge on dimmy

lmao

[short radish]

[fossil forge]

Why do you need more speed bro

[swift tinsel]

speed racer

[short radish]

gotta go fast

[swift tinsel]

bc I wanna be sanic

[fossil forge]

U press šprint ur Ferrari

[short radish]

more speed = more uptime

[swift tinsel]

yeah but you can be sprinty boi all the time

[fossil forge]

the speed kills me legit

[swift tinsel]

I'm fast as fuck boiiiiii

[fossil forge]

amount of times i pulled or died

Because i was too fast

[short radish]

like

being able to just sprint t hrough chainsaws on floodgate first pull

is great

[fossil forge]

or just press feint and mog the chainsaws

[wispy crystal]

This could be good

You can evasion it too right?

Stand in middle pop evasion and go ham

[fossil forge]

I save evasion for when the robots spin

Disguisting shit u cant even blind them

[wispy crystal]

Btw do you guys run numbing or atrophic poison usually for M+?

[fossil forge]

Depends on the dungeon

[wispy crystal]

Also got Araz adds, does anyone take the talent that slows adds when you shuriken storm?

[short radish]

i run numbing

[wispy crystal]

For Floodgate / Dawnbreaker atrophic better?

[fossil forge]

just go slow poison on araz

I did that when we prog

floodgate priory numbing

[wispy crystal]

Oh I totally forgot we have crippling poison

[fossil forge]

Gambit first part antihealing

halls last miniboss antiheal

[wispy crystal]

Ok cool. Numbing sounds good for Floodgate

How about Dawnbreaker ?

[fossil forge]

Not many casts there tbh

[wispy crystal]

Dawn has got to be one of the most healing intensive dungeons

[fossil forge]

Are you guys purging in dawn

Or cba fk ur tank

[wispy crystal]

No clue. I usually pug

0% success rate on my 15 dawn out of 7 attempts so far

Always one guys messes up the purple orb or someone randomly dies to laser or purple shit

[fossil forge]

I meant as using your shiv button

[karmic harbor]

shiv isnt on a keybind

[fossil forge]

… noob

this why tank no restealth for u bro

[wispy crystal]

Wait there's an enrage mob!?

In dawnbreaker

Which one is it

[fossil forge]

Im not sure About the name but the first pack has all 3 of them u can press shiv on

[wispy crystal]

Dang. Time to spec into shiv

[fossil forge]

i mean

Not needed

[upbeat sorrel]

[fossil forge]

I went back to sub after playing outlaw for 2 days mashallah its a disaster

So not many buttons to press

[karmic harbor]

im rerolling hunter

[fossil forge]

I was rerolling dk but its cncr boring

so i swapped dh and outlaw

[fleet wharf]

Hmm, do I take helm with avoid or chest?

[short radish]

another week another socket

please let us kill dimmy so i can get 2 vault rows

[karmic harbor]

turbo next week

[upbeat sorrel]

Turbo already next week?

[tawdry marsh]

nah turbo full potentioal is 2 weeks after 22.10.25 then u can trade the marks unlimited

[swift tinsel]

Partially, the extra upgrade tracks are as well as crafted ilvl increase

[raw rover]

hey sub fellas. can i get one of you that knows his shit to hop in a call with me so i can iron things out on some questions?

[autumn pawn]

!symbol

[glad raven]

Gloves for mog?

[limpid sage]

not the crest stuff but the dinar fella is

[warm marlin]

Dinar guy isn’t until the 21st either I don’t think

[swift tinsel]

nope just 2 upgrade tracks and crafting thing

rest is later

[edgy zenith]

is there a way to make it so the sim chooses between crafting a slot and upgrading 30 crests worth vs 90 crests spent on upgrades?

or do you just have to look through all the variations?

[warm marlin]

Above the gear put it so you have 90 gilded

Then it will only use 90 gilded max in each iteration

[edgy zenith]

oh, I think I put the gilded crest in too

that's why it was giving all

ty

[warm marlin]

need to make sure you don’t have any enchanted gilded crests in there or anything either but ya should work

[edgy zenith]

added the crest and the spark on accident

instead of just spark

[plush roost]

Im not spending crests this week

[swift tinsel]

I'm so behind on gilded bc I'm barely playing

[plush roost]

Gonna have 180 for helm chest legs weapon trinkets on 7th

[warm marlin]

I need to drop 60 for gilded achievement

It’ll pay dividends

[hot ibex]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[swift tinsel]

I think I've been at like 560/cap for the last couple weeks

[plush roost]

Does the achieve reduce cost past 723?

Probs not

[warm marlin]

it did last season

[plush roost]

Oh

Hmmm

[warm marlin]

Unless I’m really cooked

[plush roost]

I think you may be cooked

[hot ibex]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[plush roost]

Cause i remember it being like 3 keys per 4 uppies

[warm marlin]

Well you need a character to have that piece at 729 already

That’s how it works even for 723

But I can abuse my alts to leapfrog my main

The magus is straight sending tier slots and weppy and trinket to 729 day 1 with some saved up crests and rogue profits the discount

Gg

[plush roost]

Hmmm

Good comms

Scarrend gonna grind this week ig

[warm marlin]

Scarrend

[plush roost]

Every rogue has 2 wolves inside of them

One is outlaw, the other is DH

[hazy breach]

Idk its just so weird that theyre sending the turbo boost without lifting the cap

Why cant you just do everything at once, why is theres a 2 week gap inbetween them

[warm marlin]

Who am I kidding it’s cooked anyway for me

I have a work event from 9am until raid time on the 7th

What can do

[tropic horizon]

Mm hi everyone; I just got the araz's trinket for vault and I have the prism from fractilus; Wich one should I use .. and I'm what order? Thank u in advance for your answer 🙂

[hazy breach]

Releasing the patch and then having the main meat of the patch being released 2 weeks later is just so odd

[plush roost]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[plush roost]

^

[tropic horizon]

Ty very much 🙂

[plush roost]

Theyre waiting 2 weeks to release tuning

[swift tinsel]

bold of you to assume any tuning will come between now and 12.0

[plush roost]

Surely SURELY theres at least a few aura changes between now and feb

[swift tinsel]

maybe hunter gets another 6%

[plush roost]

They hotfix broke the spears in ecodome last night

Patch is not yet abandoned

[hazy breach]

Theyll do one "hey guys this is the last set of tuning"

• Enhance +3%
• Balance +6%
• Frost mage +5%

And then pack it up

[plush roost]

Wrong

[swift tinsel]

lmao honestly probably 100% what's going to happen

[plush roost]

Assa +6%

[swift tinsel]

but still won't fix spatter

[plush roost]

Cant let sub be good for too long now

[hazy breach]

Yeah and outlaw is being played in high keys so clearly cant buff that

[plush roost]

Throw in a random envenom +15% as well

[swift tinsel]

outlaw the only rogue spec in the top 99 timed keys lol

[hazy breach]

They might even toss in a bugfix to frost DK that lowers their damage by 0.4%

[swift tinsel]

OPOP

inb4 blade flurry hard capped at 5

take that

[lucid jackal]

Another 8% to bm

[hazy breach]

Yeah and i almost forgot

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/316923750073499648/1404196410168967289/image.png?ex=68dce310&is=68db9190&hm=15c7548e6d69c1085e353ddd13a4ac5bc9b67e23b67289359bf06cf3256ab07d&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=400&height=415

[swift tinsel]

true they've gone more than a couple weeks without one

[sullen yarrow]

what should i take guys

the shoulders?

[swift tinsel]

sim

we don't know what your gear is

if you don't have myth prism, take that

[simple crag]

socket

[sullen yarrow]

i think socket is the choice

[glad raven]

boots for mog

[sullen yarrow]

do i still join a raid to kill soul hunter or do i just stop raiding with this 2 trinketa

i dont think is worth it

[prime glen]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[bronze dagger]

Hi! Someone can take few minute for help me to increase my parse and dps

[stable marlin]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[mental shore]

what u guys think? i have araz and prism hc, i also dont have legs mythic

[limpid sage]

legs

[tidal marsh]

fuck you

(congrats)

[vale pine]

nicu, congrats

[sick karma]

There are fewer and fewer rogue streamers lately.

casual just reroll to frost dk :/

[plush roost]

Cause rogue be downbad for the mythic +

[alpine burrow]

If i want to play both sub and assa , is it best to gear for sub and still be able to perform as assa?

[sick karma]

yep

[plush roost]

Im sticking rogue all season anyway

If i can do ret/bm hunter aoe then it cant be that bad

[sick karma]

ret and bm u need only 2 buttons for that

[plush roost]

Nah ret is actually

Quite apm heavy rb

Rn

To be optimal*