subtlety

[karmic harbor]

but like your tank should still chain pull probably

[maiden oar]

but its not like super important the way indiscriminate carnage is

yea it is

[tribal blade]

ideally you want as many as possible

[maiden oar]

yea its nice to get

but its not l,ife ruining if u cannot get

[hazy breach]

I mean stealth itself is irrelevant, its the first dance you want

[tribal blade]

it's partly why DB is such an insanely good sub dungeon

[stark aurora]

okay. he just got brand and is worried about keeping it up

[acoustic matrix]

Just that the meta trinkets are araz prism on every boss. Which doesn't mean they are the best but the best performance come from these trinkets

[wispy crystal]

my raid took 4mins27s to kill forgeweaver judging from my latest log

[maiden oar]

ok then u never get the 4m30s flag if u send on cd

so u have some wiggle room

[acoustic matrix]

You don't send on cd on araz

[wispy crystal]

ya its unlikely to get there, so i probably can delay flag/blades till adds pop up

[maiden oar]

this convos about heroic

on mythic you dont yea

[acoustic matrix]

yeah even on heroic you don't do that

[wispy crystal]

yeah understand its better to hold flag/blades for the adds yeah?

[umbral fulcrum]

i’m trying to learn sub m+, doesn’t tfd make us want to drop combat after every pack

i thought sub could chain without issue

[acoustic matrix]

At the begining yes, then you throw the second one on cd and the third one you wait for amp phase

[hazy breach]

You can, because tfd doesnt matter that much

[umbral fulcrum]

oh

can i just take some other talent instead

[maiden oar]

i think its fine on heroic on certain killtimes, a good amount of the top logs do it and i think it makes sense to do so if you get the one at 4:30

[hazy breach]

Nop

[umbral fulcrum]

i see

[maiden oar]

since an entire extra flag is stronger than getting the cb sectech on the orbs at like 2x seconds

[hazy breach]

But like, if you leave combat you generally want to sit and wait for the 6 seconds

[wispy crystal]

got it. thats a great suggestion, think i understand the boss timings better now!

[hazy breach]

But its usually better for time to chain

so its not a big deal either way

[umbral fulcrum]

roger

[karmic harbor]

its still the best talent even if you dont constantly get stealth of

[umbral fulcrum]

thanks guys

[wispy crystal]

for Nexus King, we send flag/blades on adds.

and then flag/blades again on 100% dmg taken dragon phase?

will it be up so quickly?

[maiden oar]

but it also depends on how fast you push the pylons

like if you flag at 2mins and then you cannot get it for the amp in heroic because the pylons die in 1 hit

then you made a mistake

[acoustic matrix]

The only ones that send at 3:30 are the ones that have fast intermissions

They still send on amp

[maiden oar]

yeah

[acoustic matrix]

just they don't need to wait

[umbral fulcrum]

yes

[maiden oar]

im saying you sometimes get punished for doing it at 1:55

i got punished for doing that in a heroic reclear

[umbral fulcrum]

just don’t drift

[maiden oar]

and in that situation its ideal to send it off cd and not play around adds

[acoustic matrix]

Yeah makes sense

[wispy crystal]

you guys are still talking about araz right?

[maiden oar]

yea

[acoustic matrix]

But if your team is getting to amp phase before 3:30 they are really fast

Cause even with good pugs I have to hold a while

[maiden oar]

yeah

it was a guild run but

these were my flags

[wispy crystal]

its a guild group i usually do it.
mega sweaty tryhard Asian guild

[maiden oar]

and we got mana splinter here

which is a disaster

[acoustic matrix]

yeah lol

[maiden oar]

so i think in that case off cd is best and u hold for amp after 2nd one

[acoustic matrix]

Some of the top logs actually get a late flag because of that but still manage to do high damage tho

[maiden oar]

yeah

[maiden oar]

well that guy gets splinter at 3m27s

so the gaps smaller

[acoustic matrix]

The boss didn't even survive the whole amp ? lol

[maiden oar]

no its just not zoomed in

i zoomed in on the other one to try and find the buff

[acoustic matrix]

Not sure if you're forced into p2 if that happens

[maiden oar]

yeah u can go amp into final phase

[acoustic matrix]

yeah I've seen that

you can't kill in amp tho right ?

[maiden oar]

i have no idea

i think it ends the amp and he does kb

but if u go crazy enough u can kill him before kb goes off perhapos

[fallen depot]

Does anyone else have bad lag on soul Hunters and is there a fix?

[maiden oar]

xiv player spotted

[acoustic matrix]

like rn or in general ?

[warm marlin]

The amp ends the ms he hits 15%

Griefed my cb sectec before

[fallen depot]

In general. Started prog and the lag on pull is horrible for like 40 seconds

[acoustic matrix]

Probably cause your mates are blasting aoes

[brazen meadow]

Is sub as dependent on specific stats as sin is? I have little vers and curious if I need to really stack it or if “more main stat more damage” is still valid

[hazy breach]

Sin is not dependant on a specific stat at all

But as long as you dont have haste youre fine as sub

[fallen depot]

I mean yeah but I don't have a weak computer or anything

[umbral fulcrum]

you can play assa with 100% sub optimized stats

it’s not an issue

[acoustic matrix]

Try these settings they've helped me a lot with lag

[umbral fulcrum]

very minor loss if any

[acoustic matrix]

Yeah me neither but WoW is not very optimized in raid

[maiden oar]

yea i got 0% on mythic raid and m+ vault droptimizer last season on assa

with a very strange set of items

that was nowhere near the bis lists or sim sheets

u can just equip stuff and its ifne

[fallen depot]

Will do. Thank you!

[inner shore]

!rotation

[honest meteor]

i have 20k mastery, 20k vers and just 8k crit, should i drink crit flask or vers flask, mastery is at DR maximum value

[hazy breach]

Chaos flask as usual

[honest meteor]

Chaos flask, might go to haste, i have like 2 percent haste

[maiden oar]

i have 1% and chaos flask is still ideal according to sims

[umbral fulcrum]

it will be on haste 25% of the time

just how it works

[maiden oar]

#tc-research message

[umbral fulcrum]

you take chaos so your pot is strongest too

[maiden oar]

if u run this and wonder what its compared to look on the right and itll show the little buffs your guy has

[umbral fulcrum]

since tempered pots give you the effect of all flasks you don’t have on which is all stats

[honest meteor]

i just realized tempered potion does not give u primary stat!!!

when did they change that

[hazy breach]

They havent changed the pot at all

Its been this way since tww launch

[short radish]

did they patch the prism go out tech?

or am i doing it wrong

get 18 stacks -> start key -> walk out

wait 10 seconds

walk in

[limpid sage]

that’s been a thing?

[chrome palm]

wait were you waiting this whole time lmfao

i got bad news for you

[short radish]

what did i fuck up

[chrome palm]

you didnt need to wait just zone it before bubbles drops

[short radish]

wait what

[chrome palm]

i guess you could do that by waiting

i just left at 3s

i dont think its worth it though

[umbral fulcrum]

bro delayed the key by 3 mins for nothing

[short radish]

i left as soon as key went in

[umbral fulcrum]

GG

[chrome palm]

well its probably the same thing then

[umbral fulcrum]

i heard you have to be outside for the ding 0

[fossil forge]

you have to be in loading

during the ding

[short radish]

k

thats too complicated

im not bothering anymore

not with my half year load times

[fossil forge]

is this decent for halls 17

[short radish]

i zoned in and they were already on the pull for FG

[fossil forge]

i mess it up sometimes too

my pc sometimes loads insta and sometimes loads long

[karmic harbor]

bro pls read the wowhead guide

[fossil forge]

i might have to

[short radish]

probably

just upload log to wclogs

and see what it says

but yeah

that feels pretty good

[spice lichen]

did you time it

[fossil forge]

yea

30:41

[spice lichen]

decent then

[short radish]

thats mine

[steel zinc]

Kinda depends highly on Route and dps of the other players

You will get better overall with decent funnel classes

[fossil forge]

no1 was logging unfortunately

[graceful rock]

Is it grief to use cloak and get an oath stack off earlier so you don’t lose uptime soaking during your CDs on the 3rd tank combo?

[brazen meadow]

That was the point lol.

[hushed roost]

Anyone around to help with a log review I posted?

A little confused about low coup damage

[plain void]

is there a window where shadowcraft gets triggered with a small delay, if you reached 7 stacks of shadow slightly after casting the finishing move?

[hazy breach]

Coup specifically yes

Its bugged and can proc on every hit coup does

So 0.4s later or 1s later

[plain void]

ah

[hazy breach]

(coups global cooldown is 1.2s, not 1s like every other global)

[plain void]

is this bugged or intended

[hazy breach]

Bugged

[plain void]

feels clunky and i often waste cps

[pliant gyro]

!trinket

!trinkets

[fossil forge]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[pliant gyro]

aha! thx

[hushed roost]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[left ledge]

Just be aware of when you coup and you’re at 5/6 sht stacks

It is clunky

Sometimes you will expect the refund but not proc sht

Sometimes you will be at 4 and then somehow proc sht like crazy because of windfury

Just need to be aware of your sht around when you press coup

[plain void]

shit stacks indeed

it gets quite hard to react though, and sometimes even if i do react a builder is already queued and gets casted anyways

[rocky ocean]

[real panther]

correct me if I'm wrong but, unseen blade IS a proc based thing? For too long I read it too fast and I was thinking it's 1 for 1. But it's MAYBE 1 every 20sec? I'm confused because I see logs where the dude land every evis as a coup de grace during opener and I barely have 50% lol

[plain void]

the icd has a chance to reset

[dusty totem]

Every 20 sec ur next stap is procing 100%

[plain void]

and sectec gives two (?) i think

[dusty totem]

but ur basic atcks can randomly proc such that u don't have to wait 20 sec

Yes sectech makes next two garented

and tier makes it possible to get 2 stacks from one proc

very confusing

U can kinda just play apl and not worry about it

[real panther]

well. I think I need to worry about it because I too often have a "poor" opener with only few coup xD

what do i need to track? does spamming my shadowstrike may ruin the thing?

[hushed roost]

I'm kind of experiencing the same thing, I'm not sure why my overall coup damage is so low compared to others

Is there some buff have to track too?

[plain void]

only thing is to use ss after your first coup if you have 4 set i believe

[iron plover]

just dont be bad and roll the 35% on unseen blade double proc

[dusty totem]

Well problem is worrying about it is not going to make u proc more

[plain void]

otherwise its just luck

[real panther]

the proc way more, but I think it's manageable thats my original question yes 😄

[dusty totem]

U can't track it

Best u can do is a weakaura that counts down from 20 sec since last u proced

which is not that helpful ngl

Cause u often proc before the 20 sec

[plain void]

i think you seeing others with higher coup damage is a self fulfilling prophecy lol. If they get lucky with procs they end up parsing higher and you're more likely to have come across their logs

[dusty totem]

and the proc is hidden

[real panther]

it's kinda look unfair to me xD

[dusty totem]

Yeah that is crazy lucky

[plain void]

it's all luck bro

[hushed roost]

damn

[plain void]

maybe in bl you proc it more but that's about it

[dusty totem]

Yeah it scales with atk speed so you will

[astral axle]

well

if you're talking about raid opener, something you can do is hit secret technique on trash before or on the boss before you wipe. that gives you disorienting strikes, making it so your next two hidden blades ignore icd

[hushed roost]

Yeah I posted a log review thread. But it seemed pretty consistently low across all the wipes https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/1418102264106844243

[dusty totem]

in fact u will proc ~20% more

[astral axle]

the disorienting strikes buff will persist

[real panther]

he have 3k more haste than me, does it play a role?

[astral axle]

there is still luck, yes

but the disorienting strikes thing helps

[umbral fulcrum]

am i doing something wrong to get stuck at 3 unseen stacks in the opener

or just unlucky

[hushed roost]

oh wowza

thats some tech

[umbral fulcrum]

sometimes i don’t get get coup until my 2nd sectec

[real panther]

wow

[iron plover]

does this work for m+

[real panther]

same..

[iron plover]

before putting in the keystone

[plain void]

oh it doesn't reset? wow

[astral axle]

Unsure! A lot of buffs are broken during the bubble.

[iron plover]

ill have to test it out this weekend, thanks for sharing the knowledge!

[gaunt bluff]

is it okay to sim new crafted items with araz + prism equipped for dslice or should i equip one passive? @vale pine

[iron plover]

m+ opening with double coup before 2nd sectech vs. after is like a 15m dps difference x_x

[astral axle]

I only really pay attention to it during raid

but im not pushing or anything

[vale pine]

nothing wrong with double on use in sims

[iron plover]

"im not pushing"
looks inside:
+16 resil

[clever delta]

today is our last reclear can someone send me luck for forge trinket and DH boots?

i just need to drop it

[astral axle]

🍃 😌 Channeling Optimism 😌 🍃

[fallen crescent]

Good luck brotha

[crystal bone]

[mystic ether]

What's the best way to get help with a vault in this Discord? Here or in #wow-general ?

Or can I open a thread somewhere?

[fallen crescent]

Most people will tell you to sim.

[iron plover]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[iron plover]

what're you guys crafting with your 3rd spark of starlight?

anyone replacing belt?

[short aurora]

Probably Ring for stat switching

[fallen crescent]

My vaults were trash so i ended taking a big crit mast one

[short aurora]

Belt i got the crit mastery one with avoidance on myth track

[icy knot]

Hey i have a question yesterday i raided hc and compared myself at the logs to someone else. Idk why butt he had 7 more coup casts then me do you guys know why this could be is it proc luck? or does the way i press my cooldown make a difference? as far as i know shadow strike and my other combopoint builder are stacking unseen blade 4 of these will proc coup. Secret technique makes the next one generate 2 stacks of unseen blade or smth like that. Do you guys know what i could have done wrong?

[iron plover]

do you both have 4 set?
if so, are you shadow striking/backstabbing inbetween coups and they're not?

[icy knot]

yes i have both

[iron plover]

if those dont answer then compare how often you two cast sectechs

[icy knot]

sometimes i stabbing because without im not generating enough combopoints

[iron plover]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[icy knot]

its almost similar

[iron plover]

if you use shadowstrike/backstab inbetween your 2 coups

you essentially waste a stack of unseen blade

[icy knot]

but what do i do when its only with shadow dance and symblos?

symbols*

Do i use shuriken storm to or do i use shadowstrike

[hazy breach]

If you do not have 4 targets or shadow blades up

You dont do it

Because thats the prerequisites, like the command says

[icy knot]

yes thats what im trying to do

i looked at the ability usage of him and he could use it 4 times and still use it at the same time or even earlier then me

[normal wedge]

Hey just checking is our Sim still showing low or was that fixed?

[iron plover]

could just be unseen blade double proc RNG

[hazy breach]

Fixed

[normal wedge]

Tragic

Haha

[hazy breach]

Sub is bad on pure ST, thats just how it is. You can check fractilus logs

[iron plover]

just pull the trash onto fract

[vale pine]

you see it on any single target fight not only fractilus

[mystic ether]

Even with sims it's tricky, cause it's a lily myth track with Araz hero and some other stuff

A lot of good arguments for it & against it

[vale pine]

^ i did that the other day

[tepid trellis]

is that hc?

[vale pine]

mythic

[icy knot]

Maybe i dont know

[kind river]

Hmmm....do a spend a week in the outlaw training chambers for DH council next week

[icy knot]

are there any bugs that have influence to this right now?+

[kind river]

Or not even worth

[karmic harbor]

damn that soulbinder dam tho

[vale pine]

hc would make sub look better, because shorter killtimes

i assume

[karmic harbor]

[kind river]

I know, I know....

[vale pine]

good question

maybe i used hc but don't think so

hmm

let me check

[kind river]

But I'm big on being able to play the class and not just the one spec

[tepid trellis]

sub has actually fallen 1 place down on 90th/95th percentile

it was 2nd

[vale pine]

or fuck it, lets just re-do it again with the current mythic statistic

[umbral fulcrum]

erm mister eleem why is there a sub log for 5.7m on fract at 711 ilvl

can anyone explain that log actually

[crystal bone]

kill time, coup rng, would be my guess

[plucky hollow]

hey everyone 🙂 for highest overall in low keys what talents you reccomend using? theres many combinations ppl take

[lilac stag]

Rogue is bad on pure ST. Sub is abysmal.

[crystal bone]

myth prism would be +100k as well

if he has it

[umbral fulcrum]

ok it was only 5.5

but it was a crazy outlier for a week or 2

[crystal bone]

i had 5.1 at 714

with no coups in tfd

and normal prism

[vale pine]

Breakdown of Subtlety based on WCL 90%tile (Mythic)

❌ Primus sentinel - 26/26 place on dps (~86% dps of best)
❌ Loomithar - 25/26 place on dps (~87% of best)
✅ Soulbinder - 2/26 place (Subtlety can pad very well on adds on the fight)
✅ Forgeweaver - 6/26 place (~94% of best Subtlety can pad on adds and does well with damage amp)
❌ Soul Hunters - 24/26 place (~80% of best)
❌ Fractilus - 26/26 place (~85% dps of best)
✅ Nexus King - 11/26 (~88% of best, adds + vulnerability)
✅ Dimensius - 3/20 (~95% of best, adds + vulnerability)

tbh it did change very little

the placing might did, but relative diffrence to top stayed almost the same

[clever delta]

We are kinda shitty on nexus now

[vale pine]

we are now just 26/26 on more fights

nexus is a bigger drop ye

dimensius i think is difficult to judge, not enough data

but we are within the best performers

[clever delta]

Would help playing asaa anyway?

I saw that sentinel loomithar and fractilus are all mixed bag with sub

[vale pine]

let me check

[warm marlin]

Turbo omega highroll

[vale pine]

ill extend the metric to include outlaw/assassiantion where it makes sense

[warm marlin]

Like 1/200k

And yoinka is gamer enough to put out a great log with it

[clever delta]

he is gamer tho, you can highroll but make plenty mistakes with it anyway

[warm marlin]

I’m not flaming yoinka he’s a great rogue

[tepid trellis]

its gonna get worse

[clever delta]

like me when i dont wait for sht proc between coups 😄

[short radish]

yeah if i rolled that i would have casted shadowstrike again while having coup up and max combo points

🤡

[tepid trellis]

with this weeks buff you are very likely to not see 3rd set of cds in p3

and its only downhill from there

[warm marlin]

to clarify, the 35% 2p procced like 60% of the time across the entire fight, 6/7 of the first 7 unseen procs so omega owning in first set of cds, delve belt procced exclusively during flag for the entire fight (twice for 2 of them), weapon enchants double proccing in flag

[tepid trellis]

and at some point you are gonna stop holding dmg cuz nobody wants to do that

in your cds will get fucked up

[warm marlin]

there’s a reason it’s still ahead 6% damage buff and 6 ilvl later

[clever delta]

stealthi we need to get to point when boss die with sooner cds 😄

[tepid trellis]

what makes sub so insane for dimmy prog is the fact that you basically solo 1st platform

and do insane on 2nd platform as well

once that gets messed up

bye bye

[clever delta]

and i heard that dragon already die before amp is over 😄

[warm marlin]

Well you can see in heroic already

[tepid trellis]

it did that for us on prog

[warm marlin]

The strat is to skip the 90s cds

[tepid trellis]

so yeah it prolly does for others now too

[warm marlin]

So you can insta pop on add plat and dragon

[vale pine]

Breakdown of Subtlety based on WCL 90%tile (Mythic)

❌ Primus sentinel - 26/26 place on dps (~86% dps of best)
└ Assassiantion - 14/26 place on dps (~93% dps of best)
❌ Loomithar - 25/26 place on dps (~87% of best)
└ Assasisantion - 18/26 place on dps (~91% of best)
✅ Soulbinder - 2/26 place (Subtlety can pad very well on adds on the fight)
✅ Forgeweaver - 6/26 place (~94% of best Subtlety can pad on adds and does well with damage amp)
❌ Soul Hunters - 24/26 place (~80% of best)
└ Outlaw - 4/26 place (~91% of best)
❌ Fractilus - 26/26 place (~85% dps of best)
└ Assassiantion - 18/26 (~90% dps of best)
✅ Nexus King - 11/26 (~88% of best, adds + vulnerability)
✅ Dimensius - 3/20 (~95% of best, adds + vulnerability)

so ye

[warm marlin]

At 245/pre ramp flag a bit going into damage amp

[vale pine]

you can get a bit better by switching specs to the best option on a per fight base

[clever delta]

i think i will play assa today as it will be my last fatebound experince for a while 😄

[autumn flame]

i find it odd that the push timer for p3 dimmy is a bit lower than 1:30

[vale pine]

agree, its the curse of being good on core figths in a tier

even tho i think sub is undertuned

[tepid trellis]

thats why we yoink autumn on 2nd platform

to have it be ready when you hit the ground

[vale pine]

because the raid has very specific fights we are good, and we are not good enough to be labled as specialists

[autumn flame]

imagine having a hpally

it'

[vale pine]

e.g. warlock is specialised for council fights

and does like 10% more damage than everything else

we are not doing that

[autumn flame]

imagine if they changed so that you got cdr while falling off

[void hound]

bad ST doesnt matter this tier luckily cause all the patchwork fights are a complete pushover

[vale pine]

we arn't even #1 on one singular fight

[autumn flame]

dmg stop is gonna be so ass while reclearing

[vale pine]

unlike with smolderon

in s3 DF

[void hound]

rekills are really not fun on sub, which makes me dislike the stacking raid buff even more

[vale pine]

its just a design dilemma

[warm marlin]

I may embrace the pirate on farm a bit this tier

[leaden prairie]

Outlaw on dimensius

[warm marlin]

Got dinars to spare

[hushed roost]

Coup regardless of combo points?

[vale pine]

the dev team clearly wants sub to be good enough to be played but can't make it insane

[leaden prairie]

[warm marlin]

Well not that one xd

[vale pine]

which it would be needed to stay relevant for extended time periods

[leaden prairie]

Ryldd

I'm putting up an outlaw log on the board on dimmy this week

Be ready

[vale pine]

neverless, we are still good enough to be played so hold on longer than usual

[leaden prairie]

[warm marlin]

ok make sure to sandbag

Fatebound gaming

No pc

[void hound]

sub is solid on the last two bosses (the only ones that matter) so yeah

but i might just sit out rekills cause i cant be arsed learning new timings every week

[vale pine]

think its mroe

[void hound]

which become less and less fun

[leaden prairie]

Wdym sandbag

[vale pine]

*more

[leaden prairie]

Check saladar

[vale pine]

netherprism + forge is a op combo

[leaden prairie]

That's not even sandbagged

[warm marlin]

it could maybe look alright with add cleave in p2 no

not enough adds on nexus

[vale pine]

i have an idea

we just pay other raiders to be able to solo adds

[warm marlin]

maybe it’s doomed enough already

[vale pine]

easy

sub strong

[hushed roost]

i have like 80 silver man i need a new strat

[void hound]

its a shame that the new tier is fun to play but makes for insane rng in output

[warm marlin]

my tactic is usually chilling and studying timings week by week until we have the usual aoe demons asking to sit for a week

Then you gotta lock in

[wispy crystal]

!netherprism

just got a champion netherprism, 704 vs 710 ilevel how big is the difference in terms of DPS wise ?

[leaden prairie]

Kekw

Idk if you are being funny, the adds are way better on Nexus king

On dimmy they get insta os

• you come in from flying so you have legit 0 damage

[clever delta]

someone told me how im suppose to learn to play around that coup refund delay

it drives me crazy

[warm marlin]

ya ok I haven’t even specced outlaw on dimmy once

Fk that

go get it buffed king

[wispy crystal]

do we press netherprism everytime with shadowblades?

[haughty mural]

!prism @wispy crystal

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[somber tendon]

What is the answer they told you? Sub combo points are just so bugged in general it makes me wanna delete the character

[karmic harbor]

depends what you're doing

[clever delta]

its get good angle but its so annoying

[hazy breach]

Idk you just have to wait to spam when you coup with 5 sht

But yeah its annoying

[clever delta]

how long i wait tho

gull gcd

full

or more

[hazy breach]

I mean

[warm marlin]

0.9s

[hazy breach]

You can only get refunds at 0.4s and 1s after you press coup

And the gcd is 1.2s

[clever delta]

i need some WA than

idk

[somber tendon]

Get good is a crazy Blizzard meatride

[clever delta]

im clueless

[warm marlin]

The stealthi coup bar helped me a lot

I very rarely mess it up anymore

[clever delta]

how does it look like

[warm marlin]

erm gray gcd bar with a tick for the final time you can get refunded

Slap it above sht counter

Profit

[clever delta]

can you share

@tepid trellis

/Wa

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[clever delta]

i just wanna check out

[warm marlin]

It’s in his message history somewhere

He posted it here

[clever delta]

uff

he post lot of stuff

just slap it under !Wa command 😄

[sullen hare]

#subtlety message

Literally just search coup bar

[clever delta]

haha i was looking for it past two minutes

[tepid trellis]

that one might be borked for people since it has position snapping

this should have that removed

[fleet wharf]

if you dont mind me asking, how do you track gcd?

[astral axle]

heh... hehehe ok guys hwo about this one... poup le grace... hehehhah

[vale pine]

there is an option for it in weakauras

[fleet wharf]

I am using gnosis to track it but was wondering what other ppl were using

also tried cursor but i dunno

[hushed roost]

so if you dont get any refund by the line there you queue a generator

[warm marlin]

well this wa just shows it after casting coup

It’s only there to outplay the delayed refund bug

[fleet wharf]

but you dont track it separately otherwise?

[warm marlin]

I use the cursor wa to track it but it’s not super accurate

[frigid latch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[frigid latch]

so i guess crit is more worth than i thought

cuz i was chasing the vers mastery rings

but then the sim tells me yeah put crit vers 691 instead and craft 720 crit mastery

for dslice

[wispy crystal]

what rank are you guys at for manaforge vandals?

just realized why my DPS may be lower than some people in the raid

[hushed roost]

you should just hit 7 this week

[wispy crystal]

oh dang, im only at 4

explains why im losing like 6% dmg from the buff

[hushed roost]

Theres catchup rep somehow if I'm not mistaken

because I definitely missed some boss kills

[civic lava]

So apologies if it's a stupid question, and somehow i did not manage to get what i wanted from the search bar.

What's the consensus on Prism+ Antenna vs Prism+Forge. I see that on paper antenna + Prism is favored, but i see a LOT of sub rogues going double use. Is it a case of " we lose dps on paper with double use , but in reality it's most likely better/as good ?"

And if double use, can we macro them with shadowblade with Forge first ( to be used first) ?

[wispy crystal]

wow a heroic netherprism is only 0.6% more damage on ST than a champion version.

but replacing heroic lily to a champion netherprism is a 4.6% DPS increase ! wow! netherprism is so good

[vale pine]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[vale pine]

heroic can only be upgraded 2 more item levels over champion

[azure mauve]

ye hero and champion might as well be the same thing lol

[vale pine]

blizz did that to make mythic raiding more appealing, but it kinda made heroic just less interessting

[crystal bone]

^

[vale pine]

its not super intuitive why they do that, it always feels like they cater to the high end raiders for sympahy points

[wispy crystal]

Ya didn't realize it's such a small difference.

Having netherprism over lily was such a big upgrade. Didn't expect it to be 4% and more

[vale pine]

e.g. another example is delves

they are designed to be a alternative gearing way

[fleet wharf]

Isn't it working? I've heard some ppl say they'd rather farm delves than try hero raiding

[lucid jackal]

Delves are sick

[vale pine]

but the way blizz evolved them, you don't get any gear from them

[fleet wharf]

I'm not complaining too much, but a bit sad they gutted all the delve trinkets

i guess it beats trying to chase sipppy cup for a whole season

[lucid jackal]

Delve trinkets are still good

[vale pine]

maps are delayed long enough now that heroic gear is too rare

so the only reason you do them week one is to have more chances of tier in vault

[fleet wharf]

aren't M+ trinkets better? which are then worse than raid trinkets?

[vale pine]

yes

[lucid jackal]

Not for fury for example

[vale pine]

m+ and raid trinkets are better

[lucid jackal]

I'm using double delve trinkets

No dungeon trinket is an upgrade

[fleet wharf]

do fury just run 2 passive trinkets now?

[lucid jackal]

Ya

Basically yeah

[crystal bone]

i just started a fury alt, its fun lol

[lucid jackal]

Using essence gorger and soulbreakers sigil

[fleet wharf]

nitpicking but arakara sac seems to be an upgrade

oh but that needs to be mythic

hmm

[lucid jackal]

It's a 1k dps loss for my warrior to go sac brood over delve trinkets

[wispy crystal]

!netherprism

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[lucid jackal]

And I mean, until I started raiding mythic, a lot of my random gear was delve gear

I had delve ring, neck, helmet up until recently

[fleet wharf]

Delve rings can be pretty good, I'll give you that

ig neck too

[crystal bone]

guy did you start delving at first on the fury?

i cleared raid finder first, got 2pc and 660 ilvl

hoping i can do t8 now

[wispy crystal]

Which other classes besides rogue will want to roll on netherprism?

[fleet wharf]

just join groups

[lucid jackal]

I did them all on arms initially cuz I prefer arms but

Fury is probs better

[fleet wharf]

MM hunters, m+ pushers

[wispy crystal]

Just so my raid leader is more aware. Because I know hunters roll on everything

[lucid jackal]

Dk

[short radish]

A lot more classes are discovering how good double on use is now

Monkey also

[wispy crystal]

Ah dang. So now warriors dks rets and hunters also need netherprism?

[vale pine]

hunter probably too

[lucid jackal]

Warriors don't want netherprism

Warrior wants scream + plexus trinket

[short radish]

Don't think ret wants prism

[lucid jackal]

It's just hunter dk and rogue

[short radish]

And monk

[astral axle]

fury damage profile as flat as the earth

[fleet wharf]

If you're going by sims, I think hunters and ww are the only real competition, no?

[wispy crystal]

Got it hunter DK rogue.

If I can beat the DKs in my guild on ST I'm gonna be a happy man with my new champion netherprism

Still missing the 3% buff from the faction rep though :/

[vale pine]

dh can use it too iirc

[frigid latch]

just go raid finder and afk

[wispy crystal]

My raid group has 0 DH 💪🏻

[vale pine]

unlucky

you do a lot of magic damage

[wispy crystal]

Do you get the rep once per week ?

[wispy crystal]

Damn.
Yeah no DH could be lowering the DPS come to think of it

[charred kestrel]

Prism isn’t bad for DH either. Specially for later fights with add phases late into it I.e King.

[pure sable]

hey can anyone help me ? german would be nice i am playing sub for first time and idk its not working so well 😂

[hybrid beacon]

I am once again asking for your assistance, does anyone have a list of abilities, in m+, that evasion works on this season? I know people sometimes make a spreadsheet and wasn't able to find one

[hazy breach]

Theres one pinned in #wow-general

[hybrid beacon]

oh sweet tyty

[vale pine]

!def

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Defensive Spreadsheet: > Click to open <

[novel sable]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tepid trellis]

new guild, got a sneaky dimmy on wowprog cuz we left the same evening

[thin cradle]

!log

[clever delta]

nobody wanted prism and now everyone wants its almost 😄

[hazy breach]

1/8 only dimmy

Very based

[vale pine]

people predicted that

i did not think it would happen much

how many guilds do that?

[pure sable]

need help pls ;'D i got a 9 in logs yesterday

[tepid trellis]

no clue, we just split from the guild, difference in goals between most of the roster and officer team, no hard feelings or anything (atleast from me)

[vale pine]

ohh

so your guild split in two

or did you collab with a diffrent one

[tepid trellis]

split

some 16-18 people dipped

[vale pine]

think our guild would not survive that

damn

[placid elk]

yo wtf is going on i can cast shadowstrike indefinitely our of stealth

[vale pine]

👀

[scarlet oyster]

hi, is it possible to do a maccro like this ?
I feel like my prism never go even when araz is on cd if I use it

#showtooltip shadow Blades
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprim

[placid elk]

hold on i need to nuke vid quality for upload limit here

[sick sand]

Wondering if I have coup rdy

Do I send sd>symbols>evis or send coup out of sd or sd>symbols>sectec>consume coup

[placid elk]

@vale pine i was just hitting target dummy for a bit and i noticed i can do ss after dance

[livid hamlet]

So shadow dance is off the gcd right? Can I just make a macro that casts shadow dance and backstab together to immediately get my backstab danse macabre stack?

[left ledge]

What knocks on dim p3

[tepid trellis]

tank hits

dont be near him

[left ledge]

Nah like

The kush clip

What sent him to space

[tepid trellis]

or if circles overlap

[left ledge]

Weird I don’t see overlap

Oh well never happened to me

Hopefully never will

[vale pine]

dance is off gcd, but i would not recommend to macro it together

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[vale pine]

thats the probably best way to macro it

!wa

[chrome fern]

yeh, if you macro dance + backstab, you'll end up wasting a whole gcd at times, cause dance will fire but the backstab is inside a previous gcd so wont fire

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[chrome fern]

and sometimes you'll wanna use a finisher

[narrow lotus]

!log

[placid elk]

i can cast any stealth ability out of stealth.
cheap shot, sap, shadowstrike, shroud
i got raid in 1h i dont want to get banned @vale pine

[vale pine]

you can just relog

it probably fixes it

or change specs

i still wonder how tho

[placid elk]

yaeh i was wondering if someone encountered it

[delicate oyster]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[placid elk]

btw, relog or changing specs didnt fix it

so im fucked

[somber tendon]

I mean youre not showing shadowstrike in this clip lol?

[placid elk]

scroll a bit higher

theres another vid

[somber tendon]

Okay scroll over your details. Is the damage actually shadowstrike?

[placid elk]

yep

[somber tendon]

W hacks, dont relog dont do anything. Go to raid and blast the meters to the moon 🍆🌑

😈

[placid elk]

relog doesnt fix it

not changing specs,talents

[pseudo carbon]

Hi there! New at subt... i've a question. I've got a fist weapon 723... is it worth as offhand even in sub rogue or it's troll and i've just equip a second dagger even 710ilvl?

[somber tendon]

You're literally neo, the chosen one himself

[placid elk]

i got assa gear literally 15% haste

and champion trinkets, even with this bug i wont parse anything

[spark sandal]

Hi guys. i have seen pros doing a combo where they use flag-rupture-dance-symbol-sectec, and then use blades and then pop trinks and stuff, is this better, or is it better to have the sectech in the shadow blades?

for m+

[pseudo carbon]

A friend told me that maybe @hazy breach you can help me out this ❤️

[placid elk]

pros

they probably pressed shadowblades too late

[spark sandal]

high m+ rating guys lmao

[placid elk]

if they do this consistently they might have a reason but there is none from a dps perspective

if they did this once or twice.. probably fat fingered sec tech before blades

[spark sandal]

cuz i was guessing that they want to maximize the blade uptime so that sectech doesnt give away a gcd

[placid elk]

blades is off gcd anyway

[open vortex]

sectec used to not interact with blades so people would blade after sectec, but now it does and people are still doing the same rotation

literally zero dps diff if u pop it before or after sectec

if you do it after sectec, you just need to make sure it hits before the clones hit

which is like <1 gcd later or something

[spark sandal]

so blades buffs sectech now?

[sullen hare]

mistakes

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[open vortex]

ya

[umbral fulcrum]

pretty sure you absolutely need 2x daggers

[exotic zephyr]

is assa or sub better for raids these days

[pseudo carbon]

sadge then that my myth weapon feels useless unless play outlaw... but feels like outlaw is way worse than subt...

[umbral fulcrum]

it is useless

[pseudo carbon]

Outlaw is way far than subt T_T

[astral axle]

just confirming you absolutely do not want to do that. you'll need the two daggers

[pseudo carbon]

Guess outlaw is not worth since subt is that strong

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[stone patrol]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[astral axle]

you can honestly play whatever you like to play

[sullen hare]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[little epoch]

why doesnt RIO show my S2 max io score anymore?

other people still have it displayed

[placid elk]

maybe its higher than last season?

[little epoch]

no

i had 3702 now 3375

since today its gone from the IO display

literally 0 invites now

[hushed roost]

theres like a threshold where it disappears

You probably hit it

[shy scarab]

@tepid trellis what did u do broooo?

[burnt panther]

How can I see all the commands in this Discord? The !wa, !bs, etc., but all of them so I know if I'm missing anything.

[hushed roost]

yeah its 90%

[slate lantern]

search for exclamation points lol

[hazy torrent]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[livid hamlet]

Dang I macroed flag and blades together lol but seems that is decidedly NOT the way

I been playing sub for a day. I’ll be pumping soon

[tepid trellis]

guild split after after killing it

[shy scarab]

ooooh 🙁

[tepid trellis]

or split is being generous 18 people went and made their own

difference in expectations of what we wanted to do

guild right below it

is the new one

[umbral fulcrum]

why is having a dance/symbols/backstab macro bad? i have them all separately bound as well but i thought i could have one bind for the backstab after flag

[slate lantern]

do tell

[tepid trellis]

no drama

just went our seperate ways

[vale pine]

seems like the best outcome

[tepid trellis]

yeh i mean we just wanted something different

[vale pine]

it isn't clear to me whats diffrent in their goals from the message

is it just the alt requirement?

[placid elk]

sad news, dying fixes the bug. i need to parse naturally

[vale pine]

unlucky

[placid elk]

i died on trash bc healers afk in narnia so i couldnt even try 1 pull

[tepid trellis]

nah just more serious, a more competitive environment

we kinda wanna get as high as possible

with our alotted time

[chrome fern]

you could want to use a finisher as first gcd in dance, which could be a reset at the end of previous dance. also you could want to symbols to pull a sectec with coup or something

[hybrid beacon]

I have a lily at myth track (723) and a ritual forge hero (710) and when I sim it with my netherprism it always says the lily is about a 2.5% upgrade over the forge, but when I play it feels like im doing less dps with the lily. have any of you guys run into the same thing?

[umbral fulcrum]

i have them separately bound

but i need a backstab bind that doesnt get replaced by shadow strike

[chrome fern]

i read that part, but you did ask why XD

[umbral fulcrum]

ok so “you might want to press them separately” isn’t a good reason

i can do that

i’m asking what is the specific downside to this macro

[chrome fern]

i mean none, if you have the options to not use it

[vale pine]

interessting, to each their own i guess

[umbral fulcrum]

[upbeat merlin]

quick question guys I see everyone is playing Rotten and first dance for M+ however I'm simming higher with finality and tornado?

[vale pine]

both is fine

[pure sable]

why is rouge so hard ?-.-

[chrome fern]

it just means you'll have to be more mentally alert on the reset and not hit your expected macro when you really should enter dance with a finisher

[void hound]

cause its a convoluted mess

but its fun

[pure sable]

first time sub and i just cant -.-

[upbeat merlin]

so preference?

[vale pine]

its mostly subtlety, and just take your time

[void hound]

sub is the most fun melee i wouldnt ever recommend anyone play

[vale pine]

kinda yes

there are little diffrences in output, but w/e the talent choice you won't see significant changes in your overall damage

e.g. a lot play rotten when rotten is not the most efficient option

tornado is good, but its also a additional key

and it feels very unintuitive to play

[upbeat merlin]

got you... also i have a myth track Antenna, but only Hero track forge and prism im obvs simming higher with the antenna? not sure what to run tbh

[little epoch]

dumb rule by RIO devs... ffs

[clever delta]

big sentinel with autumn 😄

[signal moth]

reealised i have the crit socket on my cloak

you lot using mastery one?

[magic dove]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[signal moth]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[signal moth]

didnt know that was a wa

command*

[inland galleon]

!sim

[signal moth]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[inland galleon]

Does dungeon slice work well for sub

[signal moth]

yh

[vale pine]

!def is too

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Defensive Spreadsheet: > Click to open <

[vale pine]

🙂

[signal moth]

is this log not higher due to kill time or am I just shit.. I can't see any massive issues with my rotation or even usage of cds

!log

its a mythic pug so not sure lol

[left ledge]

For soulbinder if you want to parse you need to know add timings in your group

I can’t review on phone sadly but if you aren’t doing rotational errors

You need to just game the timings

It’s a cringe boss

[signal moth]

yh its a 76 and i feel i gamed them enough

but no adds after 1st rotation may hurt

[left ledge]

Are you opening with cds

[umbral fulcrum]

it’s 2:05 and 4:30 btw

for the adds

[signal moth]

no about 20 seconds in

then flag for 1st cannister

then holding flag for 2min

then at 4whatever it is

[left ledge]

Hmmm

[stiff kiln]

!belt

[left ledge]

Only 18 mil damage bp

That’s pretty alarming if you want to parse

[stiff kiln]

what is best belt option ?

i mean delves

[left ledge]

Did you press bp only once

[signal moth]

coup procs though when ads came up

[left ledge]

Yeah that’s fine but you should bp after that

[signal moth]

nope, but i had coup before adds come up first time, so held it

they were dead lol

i am bad at using bp as it feels so fucking weak but yeah

they died so quick

[left ledge]

There is no way those adds all died in 3 finishers

They have a decent amount of hp

Phone so ass though I can’t see replay

[magic ruin]

Araz ritual forge sims pretty good. But is it even better than it sims? Thinking of damage amps, add spawns such as Araz boss. Is it better in raid than Antenna in general?

[left ledge]

@signal moth did you save prism for 2:00

That’s p much only other thing I can think of

[signal moth]

nope, i did last week but i have it macrod to shadowblades now as im using antenna too

and im lazy

so it was 8 stacks

or abit more whatever 1min30 gives me

[left ledge]

Yeah that’s a big dps loss

Losing a couple stacks there, also you have no main stat gem?

[lilac stag]

If used correctly it’s good. If not you’re better off with a passive

[versed swift]

I have a 98 on soulbinder with 0 BP usage

[signal moth]

no ill resim gems but it never tells me to use it lol

[versed swift]

BP is not the thing bricking his parse

[left ledge]

It looks like you’re running all the same gems

Are you sure you sim with always use and the colours option

[signal moth]

i have no idea, let me check

[left ledge]

Yeah I mean idk I haven’t done soulbinder since first week basically

So maybe bp isn’t a thing on the boss anymore

Also idk if it’s my phone being weird but it looks like your first set of cds you just wasted combo points by building then entering dance and stabbing again

Then your second dance in cds is missing a dm stack

[signal moth]

i have muscle memory to always stab after symbols

im still 100% sure when to or not too lol

[left ledge]

You stab after dance

Not symbols

You stab for premed

[signal moth]

hmmm

[left ledge]

Your first builder in dance should be Stab, you only replace it with strike if you need to apply find weakness

If you are stabbing anywhere other than the first builder in dance you are just losing dps

[signal moth]

eleem says symbols before backstab

[left ledge]

(Shadowblades is an exception)

Yes

But the condition for your stab isn’t symbols

It’s the dance

Your dance activates premeditation which is why we can stab

[signal moth]

that the full combo point thingy?

[left ledge]

You seem to be dancing into strike into a finisher then symbols and stabbing into sectec sometimes

Yes

[signal moth]

yh i stab after every dance/symbols

[left ledge]

If you use strike, premed is gone

Meaning your next stab is a huge waste of combo points

[signal moth]

ok where am i stabbing to waste points?

Also idk if it’s my phone being weird but it looks like your first set of cds you just wasted combo points by building then entering dance and stabbing again

oh

yeah i do this

[left ledge]

Yeah sorry I wish I could give a better view but

[signal moth]

its just brain fart

[left ledge]

Phone is shit for this

[signal moth]

im terrible

at hitting dance/symbols with full combo points

as i act like it has 0

like i could dance/symbols then sectech

but i for some reason use stab/backstab

no idea why, brain lag or something

[left ledge]

So you see I believe at ~24 seconds ?

Before your first set

[signal moth]

let me check was in dungeon

[left ledge]

You stab twice and then go into cds and stab again

You’re just wasting combo points

[signal moth]

aww yeah

so that is because

that opener is burnt into my brain

and my fingers just hit it lol

[left ledge]

That’s fine you can just sit on full cp and built sht for 10 sec before flag

Then flag rupture dance etc

You tend to do the same thing a few times where you stab into dance stab

[distant sage]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[signal moth]

there are small things to improve but i dont know why im lagging so far behind.. like i was top DPS in this pull right but i feel everyone else also just sucked lol

[signal moth]

nah i 100% noticed this myself

trying to actively fix it but didnt realise it was giga bad

[left ledge]

All your damage is in cds and dances

So unfortunately “small” mistakes add up a lot on sub

But as for the bp comment it seems like I’m outdated on soulbinder

The adds I guess die too quick for bp to ever become a button you press

[tired dome]

Is the CB Secret Technique supposed to be right at the end of Shadow Blades? Or am I supposed to have a second or two to spare? I can barely get my combo off with any time left

[left ledge]

It is supposed to be at the start of your second dance in flag blades

[tired dome]

On this chart everyone posts, it seems to be after 2 eviserates?

[left ledge]

That is outdated

[tired dome]

Ah okay, thank you

[warm marlin]

it’s just whenever your second sectec comes up

[left ledge]

Our tier set gives you two coups

Which is a lot more cdr

But also we play tfd

So the opener will look longer than that

[warm marlin]

With tfd it’s in first dance/near start of second

And with proper prep it’s around the start of second dance in subsequent flags

[tired dome]

Got it, thank you. Ive been trying to follow this combo and its so hard to get my SecTec in with SB

[clever delta]

can it hold?

[left ledge]

But in general you want to Sectec first finisher in your first dance to farm it back asap for your second dance

[tired dome]

Ill just send it on second dance, much easier thank you

[hybrid beacon]

yooo why is it that im seeing a bunch of the top sub rogues with like 11k-15k crit and others with like 6k-8k? is it really that negligible of a difference?

[left ledge]

Just sim it

[hybrid beacon]

its just a general question, sims are within 0.1% of each other but I wanted to know if the class feels better with more crit or something

[left ledge]

We have no interaction with crit besides FW application

[fathom adder]

vers and crit are so close most of the time, maybe they go crit/mast for fatebound ass ain raid or just like it more

[left ledge]

Typically you will favour vers over crit

But it depends on your gear

[wheat sentinel]

question about coup, why does it trigger the combo point refund mid animation rather than right away sometimes?

[slate lantern]

cause it sux

[wheat sentinel]

real.

[left ledge]

If you proc 7 sht during coup it will refund

[warm marlin]

Coup is 3 eviscerates in a disguise that occur over a 0.9s period, and each of them can proc sht

[hybrid beacon]

yeah that makes sense with the FW, but i think i rather have the flat dps and DR from having more vers

[left ledge]

Coup lasts about 1.3 seconds

[wheat sentinel]

I had a feeling but wasn't sure that's how they coded it.

[warm marlin]

So if you hit 7sht between hits it will refund on the next one

[wheat sentinel]

makes sense, thanks lads.

[left ledge]

They didn’t intend for this

Just spaghetti code

[woeful abyss]

any germany sub pro here? 😄

[slate lantern]

in wow? impossible

[sick sand]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[fair anchor]

errr, Lily and prism sounds cursed,I'm surprised it's an upgrade

it would be weird to pick it from vault

[hybrid beacon]

I simmed the lily and the ritual forge (both 710) with my netherprism and it said the lily was was 2-3% higher, yet I see more people using the forge so I use that

[umbral fulcrum]

it’s “easier” to get a myth forge than a myth lily, so that can account for some of it

[tepid trellis]

its a "happy accident"

its coded as a blanket evis, in so making it work with everything evis does

but it also just came with this little issue

that all of the 3 evis can proc it

[vale crane]

does anyone else have problems with CB Sec tec macros?

[tepid trellis]

last one happens at around 0,92 after cast tho

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[hybrid beacon]

earlier in the season I passed on a myth lily cause I already had a hero forge from raid, maybe I made a critical error

[umbral fulcrum]

maybe minorly, i also play assa so i wanted a 90s trinket too so i took myth lily from the vault

[slate lantern]

yeah you should just delete the toon

[alpine wraith]

i would not take M lilly too dont worry

[eager locust]

Does evasion work on line in 2nd intermission on soul hunters?

[cosmic jay]

Is it worth it to go double active with Lily and Prism, or should I just use Pacemaker/prism until I get the forge trinket?

[hybrid beacon]

I just looked and saw the top sub rogue is using a 704 forge over a 710 lily (farmable) yet the lily sims 2% higher at those ilevels so who tf knows

[steel jolt]

Sims higher for you, you mean?

[hazy breach]

Sim topgear instead of droptimizer

Someitmes droptimizer gets a stroke and plays double on-use poorly

[hybrid beacon]

I was doing top gear

[hazy breach]

Ah dslice then ig

[vale pine]

i don't know if this is still true

but i think dropoptimizer always replaces the top trinket

[maiden patio]

Do you really use lilly with blades every time and only use prism inbetween?

[vale pine]

so slots like trinkets can be wrong

[eager locust]

Anyone know if this works?

[dry zodiac]

no, you lily on pull and 1:30 then prism at 3m, then alternate them

[vale pine]

yes you alter between lilly and prism

prism can stack up to 18

[maiden patio]

Oh ok, thought you'd try and get prism with blades

[hybrid beacon]

fk it ill sim his gear too lol

[dry zodiac]

you do

[vale pine]

you do

you use lilly with your first blades

then prism with yoru 2nd

then lilly with your 3rd

etc...

unless

[vale crane]

same for forge right?

[maiden patio]

AH

[vale pine]

you want to alter the use for a specific fight

[maiden patio]

I get you

[vale pine]

yes

[maiden patio]

Nothing inbetween

even in m+

[vale pine]

m+ and fights are not linear

so you always need to consider certain outside factors

like

you also need to do so for your 90 sec cooldowns

[maiden patio]

my monkey brain wants something macro'd

thank you for the tips

[vale pine]

e.g. on soulbinder

you can caveman style just use everything on cd

but the smarter option is to align your flagelaltion around add spawns

this is class independent tho

[topaz maple]

What fight style would you use in your sims to replicate a fight pattern like Nexus Prince and Dimensius?

[vale pine]

probably just use patchwerk

both figths have single target as the important metric

even tho there are adds

[sick jackal]

!log

[hybrid beacon]

yeah for him its actually 2.3-2.5% higher with the lily

[warm marlin]

0% chance unless you're simming only 1 on use

solo forge isnt great

[hybrid beacon]

im simming both with the netherprism as the second trinket

forge at 704 and lily at 710

[warm marlin]

link?

[hybrid beacon]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2P8jav9UcGe6dinGgGUvQU

[warm marlin]

man dslice takes a while

[vale crane]

can some big pumper take a look over my best try on Nexus King? (still wipe)

[clever delta]

can you have two BOE rings equipped at same time?

its say unique equipped but not sure if different one count

[warm marlin]

hmm

im getting the same result re: lily and forge but im pretty certain that's not supposed to be the case

[hazy breach]

Thats just how it is in dslice

Idk its using the trinkets properly

[hybrid beacon]

thats what I thought too, I couldnt understand why no one plays lily

[hazy breach]

But not as much of the damage is concentrated into CDs on aoe

So passives seem better

[warm marlin]

maybe something to do with add timings?

3min prism is maybe st with forge combo

4.5min aoe with lily

er

other way around

[hazy breach]

Its not lily specifically

Its just passives in general