subtlety

[hazy breach]

Or again, wait for somebody else to touch the mobs first

[spring elm]

They were running after the tank but maybe he hadn't damaged them yet?

[hazy breach]

Well then you probably didnt refresh it after you died

[spring elm]

I did. Never happened to me before but happened to me twice this gambit. First pull I went on murlocs and they meleed me and I saw I had the buff up before I went it bc I always check. Then again later on before hooktail I got melee'd again

[karmic harbor]

start logging ur runs

if it happens again post the log

[spring elm]

Good idea I wish I did

Someone logged it

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/BYzp6gGMAvkDV4jb?fight=5&type=summary

[hoary stag]

what would be a direction too look toward to fixing stuff im doing wrong? my opener is good upwards to 15 mill on aoe, but i have hard time sustaining damage output past that

[grizzled sphinx]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[hazy breach]

Ye so the first one youre in melee range of the murloc before anybody has touched it

And the second one its the slight delay, because only the dk had done like 20k damage to the mobs, and you shadowstrike in

[spring elm]

Oh ok thanks I'll be more careful next time. Never happened to me before but makes sense

[north schooner]

you can see it very clearly here https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/BYzp6gGMAvkDV4jb?fight=5&type=damage-taken&start=5852274&end=5880655&view=events&source=183&pins=0%24Separate%24%23244F4B%24auras-gained%24-1%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%240.0.0.Any%24true%241224098|59628^0%24Separate%24%23909049%24damage%24-1%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%24178141.0.1.NPC|178163.0.12.NPC|178163.0.13.NPC|178163.0.14.NPC|178163.0.15.NPC%24true%240

absolutely nobody touched those mobs (including yourself) before they attacked you

[spring elm]

Ok yeah thats weird

[vale pine]

you can sometimes get away by using storm

and not get hit

[spring elm]

Yeah I pressed storm twice and tried to run but I guess I missed lol

[north schooner]

I would just evasion if I were to do what you did and pull for the tank

[fossil forge]

How bout not wasting your def and containing your adhd

[spring elm]

I was kinda stunned cause i was like wait why do i have aggro. I did'nt try and pull I even had a late start you can see the logs I didn't even go in for a couple of seconds I think the tank just ran past the mobs. It was the first pull of murlocs in gambit

[karmic harbor]

[azure thicket]

anyone running gouge instead of blind/airborne irritant this season

[vale pine]

not sure why

what would be the reason to play it?

[azure thicket]

this tank we run with is sending avenger shields constantly so we get a lot of overlaps

and i'm thinking maybe gouge might be safer

or i just ditch this dude lol

but mostly curious about gouge being maybe better at locking a solo caster

[vale pine]

stuns are many times already on dr

which is kind of a problem

aoe blind is, even tho niche, still a very good way to have some form of multi target control

[mossy spear]

for hoa assa prolly better huh

[vale pine]

subtlety seems good enough for all dunegons

[raw wadi]

why?

[vale pine]

we are lucky prism exists, because we probably wouldn't see much play else

[mossy spear]

assa slightly better on pure st than sub

[raw wadi]

no

[mossy spear]

yea i wish i had prism

[vale pine]

thats not correct

[queen plinth]

anybody got a weakaura which makes combopoints 6+ greenish and everything below red

[vale pine]

subtlety has less trade offs in talents

[raw wadi]

Assa (Deathstalker) ST in Dungeons is the worst

[queen plinth]

kush weakaura doesnt ahve that feature sadly

[vale pine]

so unless you go all pure st on assassiantion

subtlety should be better

[mossy spear]

oh rlly. my bad ^^

[raw wadi]

And it really depends on the keylevel... If you can have fight lenghts up to 2:00 Mins Sub is insane.

[vale pine]

the benefit assassiantion has

over subtlety

is basically all the niches it got gifted

so it will do significantly better funnel, funnel on subtlety is basically a joke now

it will have execute

it gives aoe silence

it gives the best aoe output from all rogue specs

it will be able to use feint almost free due to energy income

[short radish]

luxthos does it

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vale pine]

all of this is non obviouse, but pure single target is not why you bring assassiantion over subtlety

i am actually a bit angry that funnel exists on other specs

[short radish]

so 1-5 is white for me
6 is green
red is max

[spring elm]

I think sub has enough energy to almost always use feint

[vale pine]

because any communication around funnel was that its too strong of a niche to have

and on subtlety it had real trade offs

[spring elm]

only outside of dance if you are spamming but what you press damage wise outside of dance doesn't matter any way

[vale pine]

you reduce your aoe output when doing so

[native zodiac]

Dh currently is absolutely disgusting and we had it completely removed

[vale pine]

while it seems arcane mage, assassiantion rogues, etc all don't have them

[azure thicket]

is there a write up somewhere for which specs do which damage model?
also fun spec from today was vdh/arcane/demo/sub/monk def gonna try setting it up again on some 13-14s this week

[vale pine]

like, don't get me wrong

great that blizz changed their minds

but its 180°

of what got communicated

shuriken combo could not come back, even tho it wouldn't even be this insane

[cerulean beacon]

isn’t assa funnel still bugged tho

[vale pine]

yet, it seems like this very same paradigma does not apply to other classes and specs

[mossy spear]

thank you

[vale pine]

assassiantion has a lot of damage related bugs, but you could say sub has them too

[spring elm]

Can't wait for legion remix, legion sub was the most fun rogue spec of all time

[short radish]

i fucking hate sub rogues

Some senior exec at blizzard. Probably.

[vale pine]

i don't think its hate

a lot of the df/tww chanegs

are just about dev time

any class that got updates and time sunk into them

just got added more niches and power creep

subtlety just had not had similar amounts of time and effort put into it

[short radish]

i know there's a saying, you can't just throw more devs at a problem

for them to do things faster

but like....

can they try

[vale pine]

the underlying problem is potentially culture even

[azure thicket]

not enough hours in the day is something you can throw devs at for sure but ye perception

[vale pine]

like, i am sure devs do want everyone to be happy and treaded equally

but in the end thats absolutely not what we see

[lilac stag]

Outlaw and sub gonna get design nuked for midnight. One of the two will get fully flushed out.

[spring elm]

DF and TWW sub plays fun at least, and did good damage. After Shadowlands thats all I could ask for

[vale pine]

there is a reason mage is always one of the best performers in m+/raid

or other things

and its potentially not done intentional

[twilit oracle]

Worth dumping my 30 remaining rests into a myth item that I have? or save for next week and hope I get myth trinket

[short radish]

crests don't generate interest

[vale pine]

its like, if you watch your favorite streamer participate in a challange

[twilit oracle]

I know

but if I have more to upgrade stuff idk

[vale pine]

you will root for them, and be like "ufff, meh" when he does not get first place

[karmic harbor]

looking into my crystal ball for this one... how much progression do you have this week?

[vale pine]

and not cheer for whoever got the lead

[short radish]

you'll get more crests next week

[vale pine]

and i think this personal bias towards one spec/class shows a lot in development and tuning

and given that there is not enough time to balance this out

[short radish]

yeah but when mage/warlock and even paladin gets a billion patchnotes every tier

[twilit oracle]

Uhh, we kill first 3 bosses each week ig

[short radish]

and other classes get like 3 lines

[vale pine]

we just see it more recently

[short radish]

it kinda feels intentional

[twilit oracle]

Just went into a 14 and my power went out ffs

[vale pine]

and you can make many examples where you can point at things and either go "accidental" or assume intend

[lilac stag]

Funny how havoc and rogue have one thing in common and it transfers over to blue posts

[short radish]

what's the saying? Don't assume malice for incompetence?

i rather just assume malice at this point

or at least intent

[mighty citrus]

idk about you guys, but i like the current playstyle very much. you could argue about the storm thing inbetween coups, but its super low effort so whatever

[short radish]

because it feels that way

[mighty citrus]

tuning comes and goes, but the spec is super fun to me

[short radish]

oh yeah current playstyle is great

best it's been in ages

[karmic harbor]

the worst thing is the cp refund

[short radish]

but there's also so much other things thats just wrong with rogue as a class

[karmic harbor]

apart from that sub is fun to play

[short radish]

vs almost every other class in the game

[lilac stag]

The bugs still hold back enjoyment.

[spring elm]

Yes I've had a lot of fun playing Sub the last 2 expacs

They could rework it and make us play like ret pallys so I'm carefulw hat I wish for

[vale pine]

Would be the saying to it, but i would not say incompetence

[mighty citrus]

wdym

[lilac stag]

The 8 seconds of dance being a struggle to complete at time strictly based on implementation is rage bait

[vale pine]

because many things are outside of the scope of possibilities

like inherently

if you as a dev need to fix bugs, do tuning and iterate over specs

[short radish]

No aoe Stun
No offensive raid buff

[azure thicket]

it's definitely not entirely malice, it's whatever this is

blew up a perfectly good 14 we couldn't mount to go to the other ships

[vale pine]

there is a certain amount of decisions you need to make

[short radish]

our aoe interrupt doesnt work on certain mobs

[vale pine]

so e.g. you get asked to work on rogue and fix some problems, like in the first patch in this xpac

you start to fix the obviouse problem, in this case shadowdust for subtlety

so you need to find a good replacement

[spring elm]

Rogue doesn't attract "main character" type personalities. Paladin and mage does, they are the loudest and get the most attention

[vale pine]

but one done you might fix other things, and then you start searching for ways to do it for what you prefere

so you see, subterfuge is not played for both sub/sin

and you start to think of ways to make it better

and end up only making it worth for assassiantion

and do nothing for subtlety?

and in the end, it might be that the time was not enough

or you lack a good idea

or you just did not care

but without any communication, what is the best to assume?

i would say, you just assume it wasn't doable in the amount of time the specific dev had

and given how big the game is

and how (i am sorry if a dev reads this)

how big of a mess the codebase seems to be

[outer goblet]

A codebase this old a mess? How dare you

[vale pine]

its completely understandable that many things are not easy approachable and time management can lead to all these problems

[lilac stag]

Ret was fully ignored as a spec to mythic raid on for multiple expansions. Doesn’t fit your narrative.

[azure thicket]

tuning this season got a lot of people on a sylvanas arc or something

[vale pine]

the ret rework was great

it made it the most popular melee in existence

but also, it kinda fits into what my assumptions are

the first thing blizz did say

they won't do similar reworks again

[spring elm]

Paladin attracts people who think theyre the main character so I'm gonna roll with my narrative

[vale pine]

simply because its time inefficient

[azure thicket]

they're also really fun to play apparently

[vale pine]

"takes too long"

ret?

my gf liked it

[azure thicket]

prot/holy also go off must be fun being a melee healer

[vale pine]

and dropped it because...

[brisk onyx]

Is there such a thing?

[vale pine]

something like "i want to actually press keys to do damage, this is too dumped down even for me"

[tulip gorge]

and then the unholy rework came

[vale pine]

prot/holy are better than ret specifically

i can only repeat what others told me about them tho

holy seemed to get changed a lot in what you can play

and certain play styles are now almost entirely dead

so nerfs did kinda control their talent diversity and play style a bit too much

[azure thicket]

they should give prot warrior bloodlust imo just passing it forward

[vale pine]

holy paladin to me feels like blizz is afraid to be too good because of how strong it was in DF m+

[azure thicket]

there's specific class playstyles in wow it feels like, running a main is kinda discourged with how tuning is. play multiple tanks/healers/dps specs to enjoy the game

[tulip gorge]

they are very careful with some specific specs when it comes to tuning

[vale pine]

play rate in higher keys is also mostly shaman/druid/priest now

[tulip gorge]

while others are allowed to go rampant

[vale pine]

i mean the warrior stuff is wild

people always line out to me

how blizz is careful with bugfixes/etc

and now we see beastmaster hunter and warrior gaining double digit changes

completely changing their relative tuning and the entire balance enviroment

which is the complete opposite of being careful/thoughtful

the next argument about it would be

[north schooner]

probably just different devs approaching things differently?

[vale pine]

"balance does not matter anymore"

which is also a thing discussed to all ends

because balance always matters to how you play the game

basically to explain what i mean

if you raid in the wfr, what matters to you is what performs the best in the first 2-3 weeks of a raid

[spring elm]

blizz still hates us because we used to soak things and funnel in legion

[vale pine]

how good or bad classes/balance is after that is completely irrelevant to you

if your guild is top 100 or so, you care about balance as long as you need to clear the raid

which means usually first 4-5 weeks

if you are a m+ or mdi player, you care about balance in a totally diffrent part of the game

and even level of play differs

if you play less competitive

[lilac stag]

When sub is “popular” I think it shows what a struggle it is to learn the spec for “mythic level raiders”

the amount of confusion in here is insane

[vale pine]

i think the problem isn't sub specifically

its just how much time people already spend on the spec before

like for this xpac

[lilac stag]

rogue in general, sub is the worst of it.

[vale pine]

only this xpac

90% of your time you just palyed sin

so every time sub was relevant

you needed to completely re-learn

and then later because tuning changes always ended like that

[lilac stag]

Look at the macro discussion for trying to fit in globals.

[vale pine]

go back to sin

[lilac stag]

there’s def a complexity / difficulty disconnect comparatively to other dps classes/specs

[keen dome]

Agree on the complexity.

[strong ingot]

Which macro discussion?

[keen dome]

Sub has so, so many rules to learn and consider but the actual core rotation is pretty simplistic

[vale pine]

i talked to one of the other classes tc's a while ago

and they did say

assassaintion was the hardest to learn for them

which i found a bit sus

[keen dome]

It's always going to be subjective

[azure thicket]

sub is easier to play in the moment compared to outlaw but ye remembering the lil rules is new

[vale pine]

but i can see that

[vapid lodge]

Hi guys! I’m a a brand new sub rogue and trying to optimise my rotation.

Anyone would be able to look at this log please?

I compared myself to other rogues on the same fight with the same kill time and my coup de grace and sectec is sooo much lower compared to others.

I thought I had the CDs rotation handled pretty well!

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/F3gzqKfckXAJ1RH4?fight=10&type=damage-done&source=7

thanks a lot guys!

[vale pine]

because i think the main thing he talked about was dot management

[azure thicket]

i got tell me now to track coup procs which i didn't ever bother with for outlaw

[vale pine]

so like inherently how many dots you need to keep track of

and i don't think the individual was aware that sub did multi dot too

[oblique burrow]

There is multi dot ?

[lilac stag]

outlaw is just reaction difficulty imo the rule variables tend to be forward facing

[oblique burrow]

It isnt only rupture ?

[vale pine]

yes

but like

[lilac stag]

It’s still way more complex than fury

[vale pine]

lets say you have a 5 target pull

on assassiantion you just come out of stealth and garrote/rupture the main target

and it spreads passively

[oblique burrow]

I only dot them all twice and thats all

[vale pine]

on subtlety you actively need to target switch and apply rupture 3 times

[oblique burrow]

If they arent dead after 1min its that i did smth wrong

[vale pine]

if you don't know subtlety well

you probably just rupture main target

[still fossil]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[vale pine]

so depending on how you play it

the effort is a lot lower or higher

[azure thicket]

ye i've been splashing it with replicating shadows*

[lilac stag]

“How do I fit in 8 globals consistently in dance” and what macros may aid in that.

[vale pine]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[alpine wraith]

basically with up to 4 coups in dance

the time to fit 8 in dance is quite tight

[lilac stag]

add in stancebar

[alpine wraith]

so something like dance+stab dance+strike or dance+secret

[lilac stag]

Refunds

Etc

[alpine wraith]

also yes reacting to coup refunds or refunds in general

[azure thicket]

rogue is better with acro and also nice keybinds

[lilac stag]

I started wondering if you have FW and go into dance with full CP if that’s actually better for trying to get all 8 globals in

than a strike/stab, but stab you can still get off instant

[turbid apex]

i think assa is the hardest spec i've played ...

[runic kraken]

I think a macro for BS/Dance and for Evis/Dance is handy when ending dance with full CP.

[vale pine]

i think the best way to look at difficulty is

every spec w/e how simple it is

[azure thicket]

also from a what if standpoint sub wouldn't be bad with 1h swords, sod had combat dagger rogues and seeing some of that in retail would be neat

[vale pine]

becomes difficult if you want to play it 100%

[humble dome]

do you use araz and prism and use them alternating or double araz and then prism in keys?

[turbid apex]

yeah i agree but min maxing is weird on assa imo

[vale pine]

a good comparison is speedrunning

like think of the simplest game

you have maybe 2 buttons to press

but because its so simple, every millisecound counts

so in order to be the fastest you need frame precise execution on all your key presses (as good as humanly possible)

[placid crown]

Hello guys, since when "the first dance" is taken for raid ???

[vale pine]

quick tl;dr

its good because weaponmaster sucks

[mint violet]

Why 3 ruptures?

[turbid apex]

but assa is not that simple in aoe to min max

its quite clunky

[vale pine]

replicating shadows only spread to one additional target

so w/e how you play it

you need 3 casts to have rupture on 3 targets

to make things even worse

[lilac stag]

Since 11.1.5

[vale pine]

if you only ever rupture the main target and "auto spread"

you need 4 cats

a more detialed explenation around weaponmaster

[placid crown]

but having weaponmaster for the entirety of a fight is better than only one upgraded dance, no ?

[vale pine]

basically, tfd gives us an initial burst damage spike

so it is a very local benefit

you can't delay or change when it happens

[hazy breach]

Not really

[lilac stag]

Hit em with the 15 cps over 10 minutes.

[vale pine]

but due to how weak weaponmaster is, you need 6 minutes or more of a fight to be about on par with the gain from this initial damage spike

[placid crown]

what did change betweean end of 11.1 and 11.5. to change this mind é_è ?

[hazy breach]

Nothing

[vale pine]

and unless you don't need the damage in the first phase of a boss

or on fights with like 10 minutes timer

(and little downtime)

you are better off to just take the talent and get the boss faster in the next phase/stage

[lilac stag]

WM the 🐐 of catfishing

[frigid ingot]

Is the Shuriken Tornado Thistle Tea better in m+ or the Cold Blood one :-?

[placid crown]

u mean u can vanish and stay fufu like 6seconds and not hitting anything and then you can proc tfd again in a same fight ?

[hazy breach]

Either

[hazy breach]

Not during bosses no

[lilac stag]

Tea No Nado

[vale pine]

the talent requires you to be out of combat

you don't get out of combat during boss fights sadly

you can test it on dimensius

because the fight has the "fly" phases

[frigid ingot]

i wish they wouldnt put all mega bis trinkets in raids, the difference in having trinkets on sub, and having some shitty dungeon a tier seems kinda big and frustrating

[vale pine]

you would assume you get more uses of tfd from

but because you don't get out of combat, you only get the benefits on pull

[vale pine]

has been like this for a while

and it makes sense

m+ can easily be grinded

[frigid ingot]

last patch as assa we had bisses from dungeon

[vale pine]

so you can't put the best options in m+

[placid crown]

yes but last patch you didnt recommand tfd in raid x)

[lilac stag]

We did

[placid crown]

ah

<

[vale pine]

the tier set this tier makes dance a lot stronger

which is enough to make it better

tfd was only played on faster kill timers

now its default tho

[lilac stag]

or fights if you were actually using storm

Had downtime

WM just sucks

Sorry

[placid crown]

ok ty. And then same question for : since when is it recommended to take planned execution instead of replicating shadows ?

[mint swift]

I mean this tier most of the amazing trinkets come from the first bosses as opposed to the last bosses at least

Antenna and forge are the main ones, and while prism is a bit later it’s still not final 2

For most classes this tier I feel like there are some pretty great trinkets from M+ still

Idol, lily, the devotion tank trinket, pacemaker (even after nerfs) ect

But as fuu said, it makes more sense for raid to contain the better gear

[lilac stag]

Bis trinket technically comes from boss 6

[vale pine]

delves even had good trinkets in earlier seasons

[frigid ingot]

it doesn't really matter if it s first or last boss, it s still 1 or 2 drops/week and it's bis for everyone.

[vale pine]

i am honest

i think blizz making delves less and less useful every tier

is a step in the wrong direction

[frigid ingot]

The difference between araz and unyielding and other trinkets, is huge. Sim tells me to put unyielding/araz even champion if i get it beats the a tiers

[vale pine]

araz is whatever

[frigid ingot]

which is frustrating

[mint swift]

I was moreso speaking in the broad sense for all classes

[vale pine]

the main trinket is prism

and it is why sub is good

not the other way around

[frigid ingot]

ye, nice not having it for 2 months ^^

[mint swift]

I mean hell atm I’m running a PvP trink on hunter until I get forge

[lilac stag]

Other classes are figuring out what we knew from the start. Prism is very good

[vale pine]

we discussed it in here

[frigid ingot]

what i mean is that is not fun, having to chase an item that improves your spec by a lot, and not getting it. it s same as corruption were in bfa

[vale pine]

prism was the most undervalued by non subtlety palyers

[vale pine]

counter point

the trinket makes the spec fun

having the option to control burst and do big burst sequences is great

but we had many tiers this happened

transistor season 1

this tier with prism

[oblique burrow]

i hated transistor

[vale pine]

i am with you, some of the strong trinkets ended up very not fun to play

prism is comparably easy to play

[mint swift]

Also
Might be coincidence but are all mast trinkets 1min30/3min

[lilac stag]

S2 trinkets all sucked

[vale pine]

tho so did the raid

[lilac stag]

now we’re back to strong

[vale pine]

now that people don't defend it to death anymore

i can say that

[lilac stag]

I enjoyed it

[frigid ingot]

I'm mostly playing m+ and the best spec in m+ , and if i remember correctly assa was best s1/s2 and had bis trinktes from dungeon (season 2 for sure)

[lilac stag]

More so than this one

[mint swift]

Lily, grace, HoC, academy box thing, the void shard from SV

[vale pine]

rly

[oblique burrow]

enjoyed it but i can see why ppl hate it

[mint swift]

Might just be coincident

[vale pine]

i think this raid was the best of the xpac

encounter wise

[lilac stag]

the immersion was way better

[oblique burrow]

yeah this raid is BIS

for this expansion, thats true

[lilac stag]

The individuality of the bosses and the delves way better

[frigid ingot]

i wish they would tone down the perceived difficulty by putting purple on blue on purple and maybe adding 1 more mechanic, but ye, i guess raid was fun.

[lilac stag]

This raid doesn’t have a usable indoor water slide. Big point loss

[vale pine]

give me a sec

[placid crown]

Oh also just realizing you dont recommend The rotten anymore

[frigid ingot]

me personally i liked nerub'ar better

[lilac stag]

We’re just in non-stop purple zone

Very bland to me

[vale pine]

think this picture i made last week iirc

is a godo showcase of visual clarity

did you notice my char was in the picture?

[frigid ingot]

wtf

lol

[vale pine]

you see it because i got mark buffed

[frigid ingot]

ye, i wish they would get rid of this

[steady timber]

Nerubar is the weakest raid for me, brood and silken court were not particularly fun

[frigid ingot]

it s just not fun

[vale pine]

but visual clarity is bad

[frigid ingot]

but it s intentional

[vale pine]

and always was for wow

to be fair to blizz

they improved a lot on it

[karmic harbor]

Nerubar clears undermine

[frigid ingot]

i feel like liberation was fine

[steady timber]

Nah undermine was awesome

[vale pine]

a lot of things now have clear visuals

[vale pine]

fiar, i did not like nerub too

[steady timber]

I slightly prefer manaforge over undermine because dimensius hard carries

[vale pine]

but silken court was a lot more fun

than mugzee

[shadow lance]

MFO > NP > UNDER

[vale pine]

and gally was... a fiber dream

[steady timber]

Idk I think a couple ppl made silken unfun for me

[lilac stag]

Nah mugzee was better. Silken was not a fun mythic prog boss at all

[vale pine]

idk

i mean ovinax

urggghh

[shadow lance]

I enjoyed Ovinax

I enjoyed silken

Am i weird?

[vale pine]

haha

did you play sub on ovi?

[steady timber]

I was lucky that we had a dude who single handedly sorted out weak auras for the entire raid on that boss

[lilac stag]

s2 had personality in raid which I enjoyed. We’re back to bland everything duotone color pallet and visuals that suck

[shadow lance]

No, I was assa simping this tier

[vale pine]

ahh fair

think the fight was a lot mroe fun

[steady timber]

Also gallywix boss music is a banger

[vale pine]

with how op assa was on the fight

[steady timber]

Not dimensius level

But still great

[mint swift]

Same

Also curious
How is sub feeling rn for everyone

[steady timber]

Fun

[vale pine]

i can see where you come from, the color pallete is def. very diffrent in s2

[vale pine]

think subtlety gameplay is fun throughout the xpac

however tuning was most of the time not in line

[lilac stag]

it’s funny how cp refunds continue to dampen enjoyment of the spec

[white briar]

what's tuning?

[vale pine]

means how much damage you do

relative to others

if you do rly bad

its not fun for a big majority of players

[lilac stag]

I think you missed sarcasm. Maybe not.

[vale pine]

oh

sry

[lilac stag]

It could go either way.

Based on recent bm and Fury

[vale pine]

thats a bug tho

[azure thicket]

sub feels great but getting gear for all 3 specs has been an actual issue

[frigid ingot]

what s the bug?

[vale pine]

tbh bm almost feels intentionally

[lilac stag]

Bugs is our design

Assa trying to steal that now too

[vale pine]

your cp refunds are always a bit delayed

which shouldn't be the case

[azure thicket]

we should be able to craft identical gear in a slot if we spent a spark on that slot etc

[vale pine]

and given how short our dance window is

[peak jetty]

Struggling to get 90+ parses. Is the prism that important. I got antenna and Lily, shouldn't be too bad.

[vale pine]

AND

[frigid ingot]

ah, i thought was intended design, it was feelin awful

[azure thicket]

vers mast bracers on assa is okay but also not the best

[vale pine]

that coup takes 1.2 sec gcd

you can miss a cast

which is rly annoying

[shadow lance]

Getting a late refund is tilting yes

[vale pine]

yes, rism is important

[azure thicket]

only real option is to make two separate rogues rn it feels like

[vale pine]

what

[lilac stag]

DFA base spell for coup isn’t fun

[vale pine]

mastery/vers/crit

any of the 3 stats is good

[lilac stag]

Exaggerated by tier

[azure thicket]

no on assassin rogue

[vale pine]

so you can easily craft gear suited for both sub/sin

[azure thicket]

they also use crafted bracers afaiu

[mint swift]

Kinda hwo it feels on my hunter rn

[azure thicket]

yeh but the spark cap

[mint swift]

I do do well and parse high but it just feels like

[peak jetty]

I swap two rings and and set piece ^°

[steady timber]

You can craft mastery crit bracers and be fine on sub

[azure thicket]

and if you add outlaw which takes two crafted rings and a main hand it turns into a augh fest

[vale pine]

isn't bm giga strong now after you switch hero talent?

[shadow lance]

I legit got all vers/mastery stuff and nothing else is an upgrade for assa

[mint swift]

I play survival

:D

[vale pine]

oh

i mean tuning is "the best it has ever been"

or "the worse ever"

[spice lichen]

Recraft some crit
I recrafted my ring to crit mast

[vale pine]

depending on who you ask

[mint swift]

Fair

I remember seeing TTW S1 sv hunter

that was mental
same with SL season
3? or 4

i forgot tbh

[vale pine]

if you play sub/sin

just craft crit mastery

problem solved

[azure thicket]

but i like all 3 they're all fun

[mint swift]

Subs crit is just

more finisher damage right

[spice lichen]

I mean more fw if you don’t play rotten

[vale pine]

sv and feral have this problematic position where they need to be quite a bit better than others to be played

[mint swift]

Yep

[vale pine]

and blizz is kinda not balancing around melee/ranged diffrences

[spice lichen]

Noticeable difference in my fw apps after recrafting just ring to crit mastery

[steady timber]

Outlaw just needs a one-hand and it's haste cap sorted and you can easily play it while keeping crafted stuff for sub and assa

[mint swift]

Also, i feel like SV brings barely any utility compared to other classes

Ik sub probably has less (at least from what i've heard, could be wrong) but being a melee hunter makes the problem worse

[mighty citrus]

team does the sound from the refund sound WA trigger faster than the visual i see my cp in my bar?

[short radish]

@tribal blade

[vale pine]

because if you look at the statistic

[mint swift]

EIther way, im having an incredibly fun time playing SV in keys and raid, which imo is all that matters

[vale pine]

you see all of the ranged classes at the top

outside of balance druid

[mint swift]

Yea haha

[tribal blade]

nooooooOOOOOO

notlikethis

[short radish]

to be fair healer was dead

and 0 bres

[vale pine]

fury is so high because they got unresonably high buffs from bugfixes

[tribal blade]

haha fair enough

[mint swift]

I mean, im still pumping quite well in my raid
because if you know how to play and have good gear, you can make anything work

[steady timber]

Also survival is usually the goated pvp spec for hunter

[mint swift]

Tbh

[vale pine]

dk is just very high tuned and was not nerfed

[tribal blade]

i've seen 2 deaths on 17 DB to forge on 1st boss

[mint swift]

I really hope they keep it like that

[short radish]

but if i didnt kill myself i might have been able to heal back

from exhil

[mint swift]

Fury warriors have had it rough

[vale pine]

possible

[tribal blade]

honestly blame healer angle

[short radish]

true

[mint swift]

Reminding me i need to get my resils up

[vale pine]

like subtlety was for the majority of the xpac within the elast if not least played spec in the game

[mint swift]

so far pugged most 15s

[short radish]

i got scammed into some high keys

apparently things hurt on 17

[mint swift]

just have HoA and Priory left

[tribal blade]

lol yes

16 to 17 is the first big jump

[vale pine]

and we still have people complain now that sub is good

[short radish]

we timed our hoa with like 3 seconds to spare though

[vale pine]

and want it nerfed

[tribal blade]

i think i smashed 17 hoa

[mint swift]

Pugging as a SV hunter feels
as you'd expect

im getting tempted to spec swap for queues, but it's kinda scummy as SV

swapping to idk, MM to queue as BM is fine, going from ranged to range
Queing as MM to play SV is scummy, going from ranged to melee

[tribal blade]

i did it with some title friends i have

[mint swift]

premade or pug?

Ah kk

[vale pine]

so its always difficult to judge who deserves a certain tuning target

[mint swift]

I mean

I have an autistic guildie that i talk to a lot who has subtly rogue as their fixation

so

I hear a lot about sub

Tbh i'd get a team if uni wasn't starting soon

[short radish]

i know this is the age old question and im pretty sure i answered with "just send"

but like boss 300m hp and flag is up. send or no send

because ive done both

and both feel bad

[tribal blade]

yeah ironically my fastest timed key this season

[mint swift]

But i know 100% when i go back im gonna be mega tired for the first few weeks

[short radish]

dayum

[tribal blade]

300m i don't send tbh

[steady timber]

That would be grief on something like a dawnbreaker where I might be looking for 2 ranged classes to bait puddles on 1st boss.

[mint swift]

Ban graham

If someone with 0 keys does a 17 as their first it's clearly boosting

Jkjk

[mint swift]

Exactly

[tribal blade]

hahaaa

it's after the nerfs

[mint swift]

Yea

Btw

[tribal blade]

halls is way easier after the nerfs

[mint swift]

Mortal wounds works on the miniboss before last boss

It's fucking insane

[tribal blade]

also the people i did it with are really good players

[mint swift]

My rats make him their bitch

[azure thicket]

but that mainhand still takes a spark so crafting a sub/assa mh is already grief you end up behind a spark unless you wanna rely/ run on dropped gear out of m+

[tribal blade]

yeah i obliterate the miniboss every time

[hazy breach]

300m is like the point at which you might consider sending, probably more like 350ish

But i wouldnt prism there

[mint swift]

Yea i did a HoA 14 the other day
compared to the HoA i did last week

was nuts

[peak jetty]

I already got myth track antenna. Probably not worth to play double active trinkets?

[mint swift]

Tbh

Whenever anyone says to lust there i just go

"no

"have rat"

[tribal blade]

yeah it's a tough call at 300m

[steady timber]

Ye you rely a little on boss drops or weekly vault

[vale pine]

nicuu

[mint swift]

and then he heals like 15% or something

and it's pog

[azure thicket]

like it's not great for no reason

[hazy breach]

Depends on what pull is coming up ig

[tribal blade]

if i know a big/important pack is coming up i don't send yeah

just send a dance

[mint swift]

How buggy is sub rn btw

is it like

[tribal blade]

also depends on what dps you have in the key

[mint swift]

assa tier

[tribal blade]

if you have a fury warr it's pretty easy to not send

or arcane with execute

[mint swift]

For me i don't think and just press wildfire bomb
Hunter privileges to not require a brain

[tribal blade]

lol yeah, sub actually requires some thought on sending stuff

although using cds is generally easier for sub in higher keys

[alpine wraith]

have you seen wtf is happening to bm

[mint swift]

Ok im oversimplyfying it ofc, but looking at meters it seems like that

[alpine wraith]

what is that unholy creation

[mint swift]

What, having to like

[tribal blade]

you can kinda send pretty aggressively

[mint swift]

not press buttons in your CDs or whatnot

Or the stupid variance

[latent crown]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[mint swift]

or the fact that black arrow is doing more damage than pets

[azure thicket]

still not sure if getting out dps'd by 2 million by like a havoc dh is good or bad for my cooldowns it does just get down to how much hp the mobs at the end of a trash pull have i think

[tribal blade]

wiped on one of the pulls before last boss in 18 gambit /cry

[mint swift]

Btw, what parts do you mean :D

cause theres a lot that's piling on from what i've seen

[hazy breach]

Worse than assa as per usual

Its just not as apparent like the tier cdr not working sometimes

[mint swift]

Ah fair,

So it feels wrose? Or are there more

[hazy breach]

Not sure what you mean

[mint swift]

Do you notice them more while playing, is what i mean

Nevermind

you answered that like 2 seconds ago

im fucking giga stupid

[hazy breach]

The shadowcraft refunds being buggy is definitely noticeable

With coup/premed

[tribal blade]

sub is usually pretty bugged, just didn't get the same recognition as sin bugs

[mint swift]

The assa ones created that one imexile clip

which was funny

[tribal blade]

sub has had some pretty insane bugs in the past years

[hazy breach]

But theres a bunch of things not interacting like it should, similar to assas caustic not working with singular

(which includes a bunch of subs stuff not working with singular, but we dont play deathstalker so its not super relevant)

[tribal blade]

i just hope they fix shadowcraft refund stuff

it's frustrating

[mint swift]

Yea, tbh the 0 attention from bliz is one of th reasons i swapped to hunter

Or

moreso just enjoying it more

was the bigger reason ofc

[vale pine]

i think its rly not down to one class/spec

almost all classes have a list of bugs

and you find probably a lot more if you start to rly dig for every little one

[mint swift]

Yea, i feel as though the problem is how much you notice them

[vale pine]

the problem is also communication

if you have like 40+ bugs

every small update to wow

you ideally need to re-check them

AND all bugs that ever existed

blue posts rarely tell you if a bug gets fixed

so the effort to keep track of everything just goes up

[azure thicket]

it's pretty common for devs not to be at the cutting edge of whatever system they're designing

as a casual sub player i haven't noticed too many bugs other than the lag on combo point refunds or whatever

[vale pine]

exactly, i wrote this in the #assassination channel too just some minutes ago

anything not gameplay breaking isn't that important

[azure thicket]

all the parts of the system that work really well tend to overshadow the breaks and jank

losing deathstalker's mark on eco dome 2nd boss is a travesty on assa rogue lol

[vale pine]

i lined it up on wowhead articles too

but a lot of the problems are self inflicted

many of the systems just add multiple layers on top of what was a simple system

and as with everything, the more things you add then more things can break

being on the theory/optimization/sim side of things since legion

i question decisions many times because they lead to increased complexity without adding meaningful gameplay mechanics

and it just piled up over the years and xpacs

[vague schooner]

when do we play thistle tea and when Cold blood?

[short radish]

whenever you want to

tea is s lightly more aoe

cold is slightly more ST

[vale pine]

in raid cold blood
in m+ preference

i like playing cold blood in keys

but tea feels like it might be better once you get to higher key levels

[olive remnant]

why do i not see anyone playing cursed crit ring enchant? shouldnt it give us the biggest amount of net stats?

[vale pine]

i mostly play 12, 13 atm but i feel like 14, 15+ probaby see bigger diffrences

[vale pine]

the cursed enchants also reduce diffrent stats

so they are not 100% better choices

[olive remnant]

the crit one reduces tempo

[lilac stag]

It’s not good for swapping specs and haste reduction isn’t big enough to offset the crit gain

[olive remnant]

ah so if i only play sub it is technically bis?

[lilac stag]

you can in fact sim your own character

[hazy breach]

Not really no

[lilac stag]

again. The haste loss does not offset the crit gain enough.

[hazy breach]

Its also such abysmally low numbers on enchants that it doesnt matter

[azure thicket]

tea helps with getting the tail end of a pack dead faster, did resil 12s withs sub and a few 13s but also kinda wanna try cold blood for exploding a caster/prio target

[olive remnant]

kk ty

[azure thicket]

in my casual opinion

shift + t cold blood -> t for sec tec lol

[queen kraken]

how do we sim weapon consumables again? :-x

[short radish]

theres a pin in #tc-research

[deft rampart]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[queen kraken]

ahhh ty

[vale pine]

#tc-research message

[quartz acorn]

Hey guys how do we sim rog ? Dungeon slice or patchwerk 5 bosses 5 min ?

[short radish]

!sim

!simulationcraft

!howtosim

!simc

i tried

[vale pine]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[quartz acorn]

oh damn

ty

[vale pine]

patchwerk - for sustained aoe/single target
dunegeon slice - for gearing in m+

[steady lark]

Cannot wait for some salami or luncheon to have the brand name dungeon

[high eagle]

I'm a rogue noob but, I use it. Because eff haste! Only play sub and what little additional Crit it gives is fine to me.

[oblique burrow]

haste is still good in small quantities

[high eagle]

I just sim a 1000 different ways and haste is always the lowest. Mast/vers/Crit are almost even for me.

[dusty totem]

If it sims better for u use it

[vagrant citrus]

My sims put me to 13 per cent haste, that's got to be too much, right?

[azure thicket]

ran so many streets keys to get vers mast gloves for 3% haste

[vale pine]

you typically only want vers/mastery/crit

[outer goblet]

i find often that Im only on 5 CP in a dance window, am i right in that i should press another generator then so i send at 6+ CP? Or does it just mean I shouldve not pressed buttons a bit before the dance window for shadow techniques?

[vale pine]

but gear item level matters

[lilac stag]

Send Strike at 5 unless coup is up

[outer goblet]

Coup you just send regardless of your cp?

[vale pine]

the 2nd coup can be send earlier if the buff is about to run out

[dense perch]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[shadow lance]

It feel awful but it's the move

[azure thicket]

i wanna play wow but this chili needs to be stirred every 10 mins 😔

[keen dome]

That's tough

Chili is important imo

[vale pine]

perfect to throw in a delve in between

[scarlet oyster]

does rotten make only the builder crit or the unseen blade going along with it ?

[hazy breach]

Only the builder

[scarlet oyster]

oke

ty

[whole lichen]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[latent crown]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[latent crown]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[latent crown]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[latent crown]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[latent crown]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[pearl topaz]

Is there a sheet or something that shows how many stacks Netherprism needs to be at in order for the on use to be better than other trinkets or is it always 18 stacks?

[jade urchin]

u can just send it on every shadow blades

thats ~9 stacks

[hoary imp]

!trinkets

There’s a command for it

[olive remnant]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[jade urchin]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[hoary imp]

Ayy there it is, ty ty

[pearl topaz]

Okay one more question. Is forge better than lilly even though lilly lines up better with SB?

[hoary imp]

Forge + NP is best if you have it

[pearl topaz]

Or is that something that will have to be simmed with fight duration being considered

Thanks

[hoary imp]

Lilly is a great option to replace Forge

[sweet turret]

i see a lot of rogues taking "The Rotten" over "finality" , why is that?

[hoary imp]

I currently use Lilly cuz I don’t have forge and it feels weird because you have to lose a use of Lilly when you send your prism

[pearl topaz]

Yeah I didn't think about lilly being pushed off because of prism

[hoary imp]

It feels bad but Lilly and Forge sim very close

[hazy breach]

Generally at 7-8 stacks its better than forge per use.

[pearl topaz]

So in practice you end up using 1 lilly use for every 3 minutes of fight duration

[hazy breach]

But keep in mind that if youre using both of them you ideally want to rotate them every blades

[pearl topaz]

Sorry losing 1 lilly use for every 3 minutes of fight duration when using lilly/prism

[hazy breach]

Yes

[hoary imp]

Lilly and prism requires a bit of thought, forge and prism is brain off just rotate them

I’d imagine you could even macro them both to the same bind of blades if you really want to brain off. Just put forge in front of prism

[hazy breach]

Ye but that gets fucked if you end up delaying cds

[hoary imp]

Totally

[lilac stag]

until you hold for 2 mins and then you dont use your prism stacks

[hoary imp]

Yeah its not great for m+ or any fight you might delay cds

[lilac stag]

if you want to run 2x you have to use your brain just a little

[hoary imp]

I personally have 2 binds for blades, one with prism and one with Lilly (wish it was forge)

[hazy breach]

Im just using antenna

[lilac stag]

imagine having either

kekw

[hoary imp]

[lilac stag]

in an odd twist, priory + prism beat pacemaker + prism in my assa sim. got bored last night

[hazy breach]

Pacemaker wouldve been dope, too bad they nerfed it

[lilac stag]

yea

i need to go back to meghar. still in mugzee VE era lol

[fringe mauve]

are we supposed to rupture each target

[vestal escarp]

looks >>>>> parse

[short radish]

I'm doing some simming for heroic clears on 3/4min fights and the trinket combos are kinda cursed

@ 3min
Mythic forge + Mythic pacemaker outsims mythic forge + hm prism

and @ 4min they're even

[hazy breach]

If you were to hold your flag+blades for your forge it would outsim even harder on the 3 min one

[short radish]

as in play like a 2min class?

[honest scarab]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[hazy breach]

If you are 100% sure the fight is not gonna go past 3 minutes yes

If its 2:30-3

[lilac stag]

i'm not surprised. change race the mehgan

[short radish]

makes sense i guess

i wonder if that's the play for loomi on a 3min kill

you get one on pull

and then one in the amp phase

[lilac stag]

kills gonna be wild with turbo

[plush roost]

Guys i pre disoriented. Had 2 superchargers. 14 sht. Used snd to get sec tec back. I was going to send that dwagon home.

But i made a grave error.

I symbols before using my premed. And ate 7 cp for nothing. In my panic my hands moved as if though i had my 14 sht stacks. I krangled the entire burn window.

860m damage instead of what could have been....

I cri. Because that was the kill pull.

Ty for coming to my ted talk

[keen dome]

Tragic

[short radish]

happens to the best of us

[plush roost]

I also vanished the last behead

So my Ui was fucked

[short radish]

gz on kill though

[plush roost]

So cursed.. sooooo cursed.

Figure it out

[crystal bone]

sub the most punishing spec

maybe if u press adrenaline then proceed to die as outlaw

might be more punishing

[hazy breach]

Ye i love claws being all over my screen the entire fight

Thanks blizz

[plush roost]

I didnt get an arrow on the last starkiller

I just had to figure it out

PeepoSweat

[raven mortar]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[little epoch]

arent we S tier or so? Why am I getting constantly declined in 16s?

[hazy breach]

I looked at some top logs to see what people have done, highest i could find was 950 but these 2p procs are illegal

[little epoch]

instead they crave to inv Warr

[short radish]

holy procs batman

[cosmic dust]

Dimens first phase aswell…. ITS SO ANNOYINGGGGG

[hazy breach]

Well thats the boss model being huge, not the private auras bugging out and staying the entire fight

But yeah it is annoying

[cosmic dust]

Yeah, I must admit, never had that. I just saw „claws in face“

[hazy breach]

Yeah lemme just dodge these swirlies on the ground

[cosmic dust]

Exactly this

[raven mortar]

Guys Do i have to use shuriken storm after 1st coupe always ? sometimes i get refunded full cp after hitting that coup

[lilac stag]

Can be a sexy Meghan

[hazy breach]

No you would not use it if you dont need to build cp

nor if you dont have blades

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[latent finch]

what is the issue with pressing sod before using premed?

[slate marlin]

you still do without blades on aoe tho, i think its 6+

[hazy breach]

4+

[supple verge]

Thanks for coming to confessional, you are absolved

[tacit aurora]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[raven mortar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[raven mortar]

In aoe when I have all my spells on cd I usually spam shuriken and apply rupture, is that normal ? since I am not building to coup.

[shadow lance]

You could press bs for proc

Seems gain is minor and disturbing so it was removed from guide

[grave quartz]

!wa

oop

[raven mortar]

But bs does not give me a full cp in contrary to shuriken in aoe

[lavish acorn]

Small bump https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/1415817549563695297

[raven mortar]

I feel like wasting my energy

[shadow lance]

So you got your answer

[errant steeple]

idk if its the best but im using unseen blade then using shurikens + if < 7 targets => evi else => BP

ofc u don't need to use bs for unseen blade if u are in 7 more tagret situation

[eternal abyss]

First time Sub in a key.
These numbers look good or should I improve smt? Thanks ❤️

[shadow lance]

!aoe

Fuck moroes is broken

Bp is 4+ target

Evis 3 or less

[errant steeple]

look like u just spamming cds / secret tech / black powder everytime

[errant steeple]

if 4 FW up right ?

[shadow lance]

No

[tepid trellis]

just 4 targets

[errant steeple]

whats the thing with 4 FW

then

[shadow lance]

Nothing

[errant steeple]

lot of ppl are talking about this

[tepid trellis]

old news

people that dont keep up to date

[shadow lance]

You could bp with 3 target having fw

[dry zodiac]

It was 3 with FW but revised to just 4 regardless

[tepid trellis]

and keeps yappin

[errant steeple]

good to know

[errant steeple]

u should take a look at ur hero talent / 4p

[shadow lance]

#subtlety message

[cosmic dust]

Seems like pretty high bp no?

[shadow lance]

You never evis / coup?

[eternal abyss]

Yeah I've no clue. I just did what I thought was ok, as I said first time in a key.
I didn't play Sub since Fyrakk.

[eternal abyss]

I did, but in packs mostly BP.

[shadow lance]

I don't see it on details

[tepid trellis]

!aoe

shit

[cosmic dust]

I mean for the first time it couldt look WAY worse imo

[errant steeple]

i think u spamming shuriken / bp in aoe right ?

[shadow lance]

Makes more sense

[errant steeple]

u should use shadow strike between black powder and use coup de grace when its available

[dry zodiac]

Yeah nimble seems low relative to bp. Low uptime on flawless form probably if you’re just spamming shuriken and bp. Make sure you’re still using shadowstrike in dance(not shuriken storm, even in aoe)

[shadow lance]

You need to shadowstrike in aoe

[short radish]

why does moroes always break at night

[eternal abyss]

Ah, okay. Yeah I was shuriken spamming

[errant steeple]

only shuriken between 2 coup de grace thanks to the 4 set

or out of cds

[tepid trellis]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation
At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[shadow lance]

It's 7 pm here, stop lying

[short radish]

stop living in the past

[dry zodiac]

Guys it’s actually 11am

[north schooner]

it's actually almost 17:00

[eternal abyss]

Thanks! It's quite fun, but can't focus on Kicks anymore like I can with Assa haha
Always looking when my CD's come off cooldown, but with time it's muscle memory like with everything in life.

[errant steeple]

@tepid trellis do u know if its better in big pulls to use shuriken just after symbol of death to put FW on every trash ?

[cosmic dust]

Could you argue in like 5-10 pullcount fights to evis the prio target if no other prio class is there?

[shadow lance]

You can

It's just an overall dps lost

[short radish]

i mean if tank is pulling adds onto boss for funnel

[north schooner]

you can do that but it will make a tiny difference overall

[short radish]

perhaps dont black powder

[shadow lance]

But if you're there to time the key

[short radish]

(if youre pushing keys)

where the timer is important

if its a +10 though press that bp

[shadow lance]

Just prio is you need the prio

[short radish]

people kinda forget that just because its a big pull

and theres a big add

doesnt mean you can ignore the rest of the pack

[tepid trellis]

afaik eleem tried to get the clanker to do it but it didn't really show any gains from it

and what i mean he tried was to do Symbols-storm-Dance+sectech

[short radish]

like on the HoA shard pulls

you kinda still gotta kill everything else

[north schooner]

you already always use coup, so choosing evis over BP will only increase vanilla eviscerate damage, which does like ~33% extra damage on the target over BP

[short radish]

yeah

[tidal drum]

Under what condition do i play Thistle Tea or Cold Blood?

And is it right, that i want to use Cold blood on my second Coup de Grace cause 4 set gives it 150% bonus? or still on Secret Technique.

I'm confused lol

[hazy breach]

My guess is that it is probably slightly better to do that than not to unless youll have coup up

And can storm for that

[tepid trellis]

unless im living up to my details name of schizo and remembering stuff that didn't happen

[errant steeple]

maybe a symbol / dance / shuriken for the macabre stacks

[tepid trellis]

no

inside dance bad

[errant steeple]

but if he didn"t see any upgrade

[hazy breach]

But you generally should have coup up for big pulls

[tepid trellis]

only do that if you have to between coups

[short radish]

tbh what i dont get is how rotten sims ahead of finality without doing the SS to spread FW

[errant steeple]

i guess that's a minmax

[short radish]

i guess shadowstrike is that strong or something

[tepid trellis]

you would not go dance+sod into storm

[hazy breach]

No, dont storm in dance

[narrow shadow]

Shadowstrke does no damage. All your damage is finishers

[hazy breach]

Is what we are saying

[errant steeple]

okok thx !

[tepid trellis]

strike does quite alot of dmg lol

[hazy breach]

Unseen blade and coup does though

[tepid trellis]

cuz of unseen

[short radish]

yeah but then shouldnt finality sim more than rotten

[tidal drum]

You want 1x storm in dance if you get your first Coup de grace... then you want shuriken for your second coup the grace so you dont waste charge of Unseen Blade

[short radish]

unless the clanker is lying

and hiding the true rotation

[narrow shadow]

Yeah, I mean you use Shadowstrike anyway for Unseen blade, but buffing the damage of SS won't do much.

[hazy breach]

Dont storm in dance unless its inbetween coups

[slate lantern]

Always cb sectec, and thistle is slightly better aoe, cb is slightly better st

[tidal drum]

thats what i meant to say. coup up use it. shuriken use second coup and go shadow - cause unseen blade stack lose

but im askin myself if i want use cold blood on 4set buffed coup de grace or still on secret technique

[shadow lance]

Do we waste UB before coup then?

[tepid trellis]

no no no

dont cb

coup

never

[tidal drum]

always secret right

[tepid trellis]

yes

always sectech

[shadow lance]

Sectech coup coup

If coup is ready when I sectdch, what do I do?

[tepid trellis]

you will have some unseen that is wasted

cant really get around that

[shadow lance]

Yes, maths want that

?

[hazy breach]

You should have enough to get refund on one of them

[shadow lance]

Feel so sad

Yes, but if not on the first

[tepid trellis]

ive done some funny business sometimes

[hazy breach]

But if not then strike and tank the l, better to get coup inside dance than to preserve a stack for out of dance

[tidal drum]

my burstrotation ist:

Flagellation
Shadowdance
Symbols of Death
Shadowblades
Coldblood
SecTech
Coup
Shuriken
Coup
Shadowstrike and go on

[tepid trellis]

if i see my ShT stacks are like 4-5 then i sectech into storm-coup

then my coup gets the refund

so i back2back press it

[hazy breach]

Ye

[tepid trellis]

if im locked in that is

which isnt always the case

[shadow lance]

I got the vibe yes

[tidal drum]

mhhhh

[hazy breach]

Thats what sim does too, or well, it uses storm once on either of those

But never twice