subtlety

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[still quartz]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[red lion]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[floral solstice]

ur prolly running rcloot council if /rc brings up a menu in the chat. and if /combatlog doesnt do anything make sure ur have advance combat logging enabled in settings under network

[proper latch]

Is Lily + Prism combination supported by the sims?

[vagrant thorn]

guys type more please I have 1 hour left at work and nothing to do I need subtlety content to engage with

[vagrant thorn]

should be supported, it sims okayish for me, not as good as prism+passive

[proper latch]

Yeah, same shit

[fallow anvil]

Hey guys, probably a dumb question, but when in a non cooldown Shadow Dance and you land on 5cp after a shadow strike, do you SS again or send the finisher? Its always send on 6+ right?

[karmic harbor]

723 lily + 710 nether sims higher for me than 710 nether + 723 pacemaker

but do i really want to play double on use...

i'd need 2 more buttons to press for the trinkets

instead of them just being macrod to blade

[shadow lance]

Tbh, Idk

I play the spec at correct level

And I never know what I should do

[hollow spear]

SS again

[fierce minnow]

i seem to never remember this... does FW buff nimble flurry damage on offtargets?

or does nimble flurry spread the higher base damage from the main target and FW on offtargets doesnt do anything

[shadow lance]

If it works like spatter, the FW on the main target doesn't buff damages on other targets

So each target needs to have FW to receive more NF damages

That's my understanding of the interaction

[hallow night]

Anyone run into an issue with the shadow craft weak aura where boss voice lines over write the sound effect so it doesn’t go through?

[fierce minnow]

ye training dummy without FW takes 52% dmg from nimble flurry and 57% with FW on

weird numbers, considering nimble is supposed to be 60% but whatever

[robust dust]

Hey. I struggle to fit 2 sec techs in my first dance window (10sec). Any advice?

[hallow night]

You usually can’t

[fierce minnow]

pool more ShT

[hazy breach]

Fazed

[hallow night]

Unless you farm a ton of shadow techniques

[shadow lance]

It's only SS, BS, AA and Evisc

[fierce minnow]

ah okay so my base is skewed

[robust dust]

So its something not worth to Play around?

[hallow night]

You can go afk about 10s before cds to try and get to over 10 shadow techniques

[fierce minnow]

thats not what i meant

[shadow lance]

So I don't get

Soz

[hazy breach]

Well no, but if you apply fw and then sectech to apply fazed its gonna be 60%

[hazy breach]

If it happens it happens, if not dont sweat it

[shadow lance]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[shadow lance]

But with Skyfury, you can proc your second sectech in first dance

[vagrant thorn]

what % dps gain is stopping finishers <10 secs? 😛

[shadow lance]

Relevant enough to be put in a !command

[arctic heart]

my first key playing sub, going with my guts and memory from shadowlands, what is REALLY wrong, please?

black power cannot be first damage right?

[hallow night]

What key level?

[arctic heart]

10

priory

[hallow night]

Was your group aoe dps compete ass?

[arctic heart]

bm and demonology

[hallow night]

In very high keys the break down is usually nimble flurry and bp do equal damage

[hazy breach]

Too much storm

[hallow night]

I mean like 16s

[arctic heart]

too much storm, got it

[shadow lance]

That's my last key if you wanna compare

[hallow night]

In 10s bp should be like 4 or 5

[arctic heart]

got it

thank you man!

lets go again haha

[shadow lance]

Why my BP so low? Da fck

[hallow night]

Mobs aren’t living long enough

[shadow lance]

It was Street

Got the answer

[hallow night]

Imo don’t play sub every key

[proper stone]

quick Q, is it better to evisc or BP on Soul HUnters?

[shadow lance]

Evisc the one with most hp

[proper stone]

thought so tyvm:D

[shadow lance]

? Wdym?

[crystal bone]

cooked opinion

[slow gorge]

Is their something to must know in sub?

[crystal bone]

sub gigablasting all keys

[shadow lance]

Yeah, sub is legit the best rogue spec atm

[hallow night]

Eco dome and flood gate are just better as assa

Unless you have a dk in floodgate

[shadow lance]

I agree to disagree

I do way more overall as sub than assa in both keys

And at least, I'm not dependant of the tank pulling adds on boss each time

And getting my funnel exploded by pug

[hallow night]

I only look at the highest key levels which causes bias

[crystal bone]

tank says ill pull some extra for boss funnel
ele sham neuron activated
gigablast ascendance chain lightnings

no more funnel

[hallow night]

I’m going to post that in the ele discord so they can write a wall of text about how you’re the asshole and they are the victim and powerless to the situation

[shadow lance]

That's why Casual play sub on his highest Flood?

[crystal bone]

its not just ele shamans

its all pugs that crave the overall

that is why funnel is overrated for most people

in the top .1% u get people like zac that turn off blade flurry for zeross' funneling

[shadow lance]

Idk mate, I don't think you and I are doing relevant key enough to hard switch spec depedending the key

[hallow night]

The top 100 floods only have 25~ sub rogues

[crystal bone]

then u see funnel value

[hallow night]

You can play it if you want there’s no problem, but you aren’t casual

[shadow lance]

Did I say that?

You're like "You should not play that"

[hallow night]

I think we’ll see more sub as time goes on and people get more gear

[lilac stag]

a lot of players will play assa unless they’re forced to play sub. Number bias in keys is whatever.

All three specs are performing.

Play whatever the fuck you want.

[hallow night]

Yeah sub has way less players, I’m surprised because it’s pretty fun

Just king of hard at times

[lilac stag]

people like easy dps

Assa is easy dps

[hallow night]

I had to turn down my spell queue window to 200 to play it

[lilac stag]

waits for the flood of assa rogues explaining how difficult the spec is

[hallow night]

Because at 300 I was inputting incorrect globals on shadow craft refresh

[lilac stag]

In all seriousness. Sub isn’t everyone’s jam and that’s fine.

Not everyone enjoys the dopamine of popping off with 18 stacks of the prism in a key.

[hallow night]

I keep running pig normals and keep getting unlucky every week

[valid sundial]

Auprism

Sorry

[cunning mist]

I just like the burst window gameplay of sub 😄

makes me feel like i'm doing work

[loud tiger]

what build we use ? wowhead ?

[errant ferry]

In m+ you think I should be running
My prism and ritual forge or is that just for raid?

[queen kraken]

am i bad or can we not fit the 2nd cb st into first dance window with tfd?

[untold imp]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[karmic harbor]

if i flag a target, do i have to keep hitting it?

or is any cp spent good enough

[hallow night]

My pig normal strategy is to invite no strength or agility users and just don’t drop prism anyways.

[swift tinsel]

This

[crystal bone]

there are a few builds out there, all are variants of the one on wowhead yea

[lilac stag]

You need TFD and even then some luck. There’s no reason not to run TFD.

[loud tiger]

but they all play diff build

with cold blood

in wowhead it says tea

[crystal bone]

tea is +1% in aoe, CB is +1% in st

[lilac stag]

cb has more boss dmg. Vigor has more aoe. They’re within ~1% of each other.

[crystal bone]

whatever u prefer

[loud tiger]

an no finalty ?

isnt it good for aoe situations ?

[lilac stag]

Debatable that rotten is better for FW spread.

[loud tiger]

i see

[zealous flint]

Hey guys, is anyone willing to look at some raid logs for me from tonight, ive just picked up sub for first time in raid toniight and looking for pointers

[lilac stag]

Our AOE is kinda jank with FW and mathing it out is interesting

CN rogues are using rotten to spread FW in large pulls then pumping BP

Others are using evicerate more, which should give a nod to finality

Unless they changed up other talents on that row.

Like PV or some shit.

basically make it your own. Fuck playing tornado.

[loud tiger]

sure

ty dude

and about the stats

crit doesnt matter at all =

?

[lilac stag]

Huh?

Just avoid haste. Toss on ilvl.

use dslice for gems/enchants

[loud tiger]

ye i dont have haste but lots of mastery and vers

[queen kraken]

no i just meant if its possible to get a 2nd sectech like u start a boss with shadowblades

[fallow anvil]

use crit disc belt and stack mast vers for the most part, but always sim

[lilac stag]

Which is what I answered

[queen kraken]

ye but the part about "There’s no reason not to run TFD" why say that 😂 i didnt even ask for that

just wondered if its possible to get it done

meaning no offense or anything

[karmic harbor]

brooooo

i totally forgot about tfd in keys

[lilac stag]

There is a . To end the sentence.

[crystal bone]

its possible but only with tfd

[lilac stag]

not running TFD is cringe

[crystal bone]

and some luck

[lilac stag]

When you look at the power shift of the competing talents.

[crystal bone]

its also possible to get a 3rd sectec inside flag

giga luck

[mighty citrus]

i may do something wrong but tfd in raid always desyncs my second cb sectec. i think what iam doing wrong is that i use this in my second dance. thats why i run WM cause iam bad 😄

[queen kraken]

i am humbly sorry sire

[queen kraken]

isee alot playin weaponmaster for araz mythic

idk

but i dont dislike tfd

[heavy moat]

It's cause technically tfd is less dps after 5min I believe so it's more dmg to run WM if I'm not mistaken. I'd assume the gain isn't much

[hazy breach]

Both of them are insanely weak and mostly picked for pathing to inev

[lilac stag]

It’s 7 minutes and in patchwork, where you don’t cast storm

[hazy breach]

WM is effectively +15% dmg to backstab and shadowstrike

[lilac stag]

Downtime and Storm Casts diminish WM value.

[hazy breach]

So if you have a gander over your dps meter and find where those are, youll notice that its not a big increase

[karmic harbor]

if i flag a target, do i have to keep hitting it?
or is any cp spent good enough

[hazy breach]

You do not need to keep hitting

[karmic harbor]

tyty

[formal gull]

Guys i know is a bit dumb but here it is a priory 10 my recap seems good? i'm starting the spec! ty

[lilac stag]

we have some real banger talent choices.

[mighty citrus]

so with tfd i would try to fit in the second sectech in the first dance?

[hazy breach]

Not specifically

[mighty citrus]

or how would it be done properly

[lilac stag]

Too much rupture in a 10 imo

[hazy breach]

You just sectech whenever its ready

[formal gull]

really? ok cause i really try to put 2 3 rupture each start pack

[lilac stag]

as long as you’re not holding CDs that’s fine

[mighty citrus]

okidoki

[lilac stag]

If you’re doing that with a gathered pack and CDs (dance) is up,

there’s a couple you can spread ruptures while tank gathers

[formal gull]

that's the opposite xD sometime i dont have 2 symbol or 2 dance for big cd's

[lilac stag]

The higher keys you’ll rupture a bit more

[tribal blade]

you'll want to fix that, that's really bad

[formal gull]

yeah that what i do i shuriken rupture and when everything is packed i cd

[lilac stag]

You need 1.5 dance and 1.4 sod

[tribal blade]

play more conservatively with dance+symbols to make sure you can have enough for cds

then learn how to be more aggressive with usage

better safe than sorry

[lilac stag]

I think you learn what not to do by being more aggressive with it, then throttle it back a bit when you realized you messed up

You have to learn the CDR cadence

and if you’re overholding you don’t know what you’re not using

to each their own method to the learning madness.

[tribal blade]

easiest rule to follow just stop sending everything 30 secs before cds come up 😉

[lilac stag]

Of course, but as you see in here, that’s not easy.

[solemn creek]

With tfd and some reset. Im able to send a symbol before the first dance end and send a 2nd sech tech in it

But the timing is ruff

[lilac stag]

Plus us weekly pushers have extra CDR this week.

[solemn creek]

Like dance end really soon.. i wonder if my st shadow lose thw dance buff

I would have to check damage log i guess

Does st 3 damage snapshot?

Like.. if i use with buff up. But buff ends before the shadow part does its delayed damage?

[tribal blade]

it'll do it's dmg so long as you immediately press dance after the 1st one ends

you want to dance back to back in cds with no delay

[solemn creek]

Ya thats what i was doing

Was just wondering if there could be a micro second where it miss

[obsidian orchid]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[formal gull]

ok thx for the help boyz let's continue the training

[tribal blade]

it doesn't snapshot, but yeah the clones hits will be empowered by your 2nd dance

[solemn creek]

Sending it during first dance is the only way i can manage to triple st

But ya.. this week in 10s... we are.. always in cd

With tfd

Its insane

[lilac stag]

So this was an 11 priory.

[tribal blade]

i didn't even know it's the cdr affix this week

[lilac stag]

I know. You big 🍆

[tribal blade]

at least with prism you don't get your trinket fucked haha

[brave harbor]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[tribal blade]

such small peen

so smol

[lilac stag]

did you see the conversation about loom prog last night (for me)

[tribal blade]

nah i didn't

[solemn creek]

I think im not bping enough

12 priory

15 db

[mighty citrus]

which one?

[tribal blade]

BP will always be low in DB

[solemn creek]

Our st are similar. Same for coup.. i have a bit more nimble. But u have very much more bp

Well i have 600k more nimble. And 600 less bp

[tribal blade]

he's choosing not to rupture as much

[solemn creek]

Guess its similar

[lilac stag]

I was top tendril dmg

[tribal blade]

nice!

something sub's good at lol

[lilac stag]

once we started getting them down consistently

[tribal blade]

as sin you do literally 0

[solemn creek]

Playing forgeweaver.. and having your r.l say.. wtf is this amp damage

[lilac stag]

I asked do you want me to swap to boss dmg? Answers sure… then checks dmg breakdown

[solemn creek]

Feels great 😅

[lilac stag]

range WTF

lol

Ended up as assa after break for execute dmg. We lusted p2 on kill

[lilac stag]

Bel and I are kings of tendril dmg.

Rik reverb range adds part two

https://tenor.com/view/djdee-breakin-movie-gif-19729471

[lilac stag]

Big BP enjoyer.

buff it more please.

[narrow panther]

Is there like a subrogue guide for idiots anywhere?

interested in trying it out

[lilac stag]

#assassination

j/k

[mighty citrus]

on progress i did gigadmg on rikadds

but as soon people got gear, i sucked 😄

[narrow panther]

playing assa now, constantly dotting an needing restealths all the time is giving me aids

[lilac stag]

Well. Did you do giga dmg to the single range adds they ignored? That was myself and Bel

[mighty citrus]

dont remember to be fair

just copied stealthi

back then

[lilac stag]

You’re doing something wrong then

[lilac stag]

If you didn’t use vanish and two steps to kill a single add you just sat on boss

[narrow panther]

theres no doubt about that but it doesnt hurt to try other specs 🙂

[lilac stag]

So pick a guide and start there. I think wowhead maybe most noob friendly

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[lilac stag]

This is not a sit down and learn it in 15 minutes spec (for better or for worse)

[narrow panther]

Ik it isnt was just asking for advice on where the best noob friendly guide was at 🙂

[lilac stag]

all three are good

See which resonated best with you and how you learn

Information is basically the same, just presented slightly differently.

The tldr for sub:

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[brave harbor]

So last time I played sub was in df and never even respeced to sub in tww. From what I understand the outside of dance SS/BP-Rup (Same as always). Inside dance try to get a cd in like Shadow blades/Flagellation. However, we instantly do SecTech with SoD and we do Shadowstrike to bp until coup de grace

Am I missing anything?

Also we do backstab as first danse macabre dont know why

[lavish nebula]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[fallow anvil]

Just got Netherprism do you skip using it on pull to let it stack or just send on every Shadowblades?

[hazy breach]

Both work

Just depends on where you want the damage

[fallow anvil]

true, cheers

[alpine raft]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[autumn pawn]

hello guys! there is a macro to use Backstab on the same bind as Dance, without pressing a second charge of Dance? please 😄

[hazy breach]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[autumn pawn]

thanks my big goat

[cyan mauve]

hi guys, I am going to craft my 2nd item but I am struggling to understand why bracer is the most recc? I was thinking of making a ring because mine aren't the best;

[slate lantern]

Sim using droptimizer to see what is best for you, but there are multriple good rings in m+ this season so people are just farming those

[cyan mauve]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nEM1AMv2daJa2RAtsaSvA1 this is recentish

[broken stirrup]

i'm so bad at sub here but it's so fun

[rocky ocean]

[narrow panther]

how much dmg are yall doing in your openers on aoe dummies?

just trying to get a feel for how im doing 😂

[obsidian orchid]

!craft

[turbid bobcat]

i'm bad but i can get like 12-14m on the dummies 701ilvl 720 MH dagger no on use trinket

[narrow panther]

yea im getting around that atm in my opener then i drop off to around 9-10m

kinda just winging it currently getting a feel for it

after reading wowhead

also dont really have much versa atm as im in my assa gear not sure if that makes much of a difference

[hazy breach]

As long as you dont have tons of haste its fine

[halcyon pendant]

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[narrow panther]

naw i got like 1k haste

😂

so just want to clarify if im reading this correctly, After we use Coup, we use eviscerates over black power because of flawless form right untill we have no more stacks then revert too black powder?

[hazy breach]

Flawless form stacks are not something you base any decisions on

Sectech > Coup > BP at 4 or more > Evis

is the priority for finishers

[narrow panther]

just i read this figured it was based on flawless form

[stuck linden]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[feral barn]

Depends on the situation if there is a big prio target, but damagewise, you want to BP at 4+ target, try to have Find the Weakness on targets before

FtW is easily applied if you play The Rotten, as you'll crit with an early shuriken storm in dance

[hazy breach]

You dont want to storm in dance

[narrow panther]

im guessing we just send shadow dance kinda on cd but make sure to have one up for cd realignments? the cd seems pretty short?

[hazy breach]

Unless its to conserve your unseen blades (ie during 4p)

[violet palm]

Do we skip fazed rule when sending coup? I usually try stack some energy or shadow tech stacks b4 sending coup outside cds, which sometimes lead to fazed ticking down

[hazy breach]

No

Sectech > Coup > BP at 4 or more > Evis

Means that youll be using sectech, which means fazed is up

The only time fazed is relevant is if you swap target to something that wasnt in range for your earlier sectech

[violet palm]

I see. Good to know, thanks

[acoustic matrix]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jhwqJYy1AKrMk8La?fight=last&type=casts&source=7&view=timeline
You guys see any obvious mistake or just a bad gear/timer thing ?

[golden harbor]

2nd builder in dance (aoe) should be storm right?

[hazy breach]

No

[golden harbor]

Then how are you applying aoe find weakness

[hazy breach]

You only storm in dance when you have coup/4p ready and dont want to waste your unseen blades

[vale widget]

After 2 days of nonstop, and it had to drop on the worst group I was part
Finally free

[hazy breach]

Otherwise youll have fw up from storming before, or youll just tank not having it up

[chrome fern]

im assuming that's the lily

[vale widget]

Ye

[chrome fern]

grats

[hazy breach]

For example getting your 2 coups of in dance is more important than having fw up

[vale widget]

Im really tired

[acoustic matrix]

Lirio del tejido eterno

that's italian ?

[hazy breach]

And when you storm you dont progress your coup stacks

[chrome fern]

tiempo, spanish no?

[hazy breach]

(not to mention shadowstrike proccing the extra unseen blade hit from 2p does comparable damage to BP anyway)

[vale widget]

Spanish
Too lazy to set on english

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/thank-you-por-que-no-gif-23322568

[feral barn]

I would've imagined that trading a 100% FW on all targets is better than missing just 1 SS, for coup stacks

Maybe this is imaginable during the long Shadow Dance after 6s out of combat

[vast ibex]

Changing from other spec to sub - Is there some important haste treshholds i do not want to go under, or is it wild west with it? 😄 current unbuffed stats:

[hazy breach]

Dont get haste and youre fine

[vast ibex]

aight bet, so just some crit to versa and im gucci

[vale widget]

Now I have to farm priory's ring

[vast ibex]

this one? 😉

[tulip gorge]

you boys ready for some nerfs tonight

[vale widget]

Ye

And no

[tulip gorge]

I already got people complaining sub is overpowered in m+

[hazy breach]

I would be insanely surprised if they nerf sub

[violet palm]

What nerfs? D:

[golden harbor]

@hazy breach is it still bp at 4+ targets if you dont have fw on them

[hazy breach]

Yes

[tulip gorge]

maybe they nerf bp and buff eviscerate

who knows

[dire spoke]

do you still press storm if you get a shadowcraft refund or only if you need the combo points

[hazy breach]

You would not press a builder if you are at full cp no

[dire spoke]

in blades ofc

got it, figured thanks

[violet palm]

Would be good if they nerf some bugs

[tulip gorge]

is there a consensus for the best build in m+?

is it the CB build?

[haughty mural]

Sure nerf bp, buff evis and fix finality coup (:

I’d be down for that
Back to nimble till 7

But why would they touch us at this point?

[tulip gorge]

because we're strong in m+

and on some bosses in raid

[haughty mural]

So are other specs tho

[tulip gorge]

yeah but you see

if it's yellow class, it's bad

[haughty mural]

Based

[left ledge]

I don’t think sub gets touched until midnight tbh

[tulip gorge]

I would love some ST buffs for any of the rogue specs

all of them are quite bad on ST bosses

[haughty mural]

You can’t buff sub ST right now

[left ledge]

Can’t buff sub ST without buffing their aoe

So unfortunately it’s not happening

[runic trail]

Could buff st and do a nimble nerf I guess?

[tulip gorge]

they can just buff eviscerate and nerf black powder

[left ledge]

They can buff black powder again though

[violet palm]

I love black powder

[haughty mural]

But it’s also our nimble burst cleave what’s really strong this raid

So if they our st we are even more insane this tier

[hazy breach]

Blizzard typically balances around a chart similar to this, and to me it doesnt particularly look like sub is over performing here

And while yes sub is strong in some areas, it also has very clear weaknesses

[tulip gorge]

outlaw op, please nerf

[left ledge]

I mean sub is strong on 4 out of 8 bosses

The other 4 it is quite weak

[vale pine]

the chance of sub nerfs is low

[hazy breach]

My point was moreso that yeah sub does a lot of damage to the damage amp and the adds on forgeweaver

[left ledge]

In m+ sub is strong sure but it isn’t unmatched

[tulip gorge]

I hope so, I want to enjoy the sub rogue meta

[hazy breach]

But its horrendous during the intermission

[warm wagon]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[warm wagon]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vale pine]

not last anymore

[left ledge]

Damn not bottom frag

[vale pine]

haha

[runic trail]

Time to sandbag harder

[hazy breach]

And while yeah sub did really good platform damage and last phase damage on dimensius, it did dogshit in p1

[tulip gorge]

if they don't want to make sub stronger, they could at least buff assa ST

outlaw in general needs aura buffs

[left ledge]

They would’ve buffed assa if they wanted to by now

[tulip gorge]

there hasn't been any tuning

[left ledge]

They typically buff them pretty early

[tulip gorge]

this is the first tuning

[left ledge]

We will see what they do

[haughty mural]

Wasn’t frost the best performing mage spec sometimes on ptr

[tulip gorge]

they nerfed it randomly

and left arcane untouched

[haughty mural]

Doesn’t help that icy veins ain’t doing much

[tulip gorge]

on loomithar it's close

[timid aspen]

guys been getting my ass kicked trying to learn sub, which one of the guides yous guys recommend to focus to try and learn this

[tulip gorge]

wowhead

[deep ivy]

pretty much every high skill sub rogue uses sectec as its first finisher after dance symbols, why? ive learned to always use it on your second supercharged CP becasue of Danse macabre

[vale pine]

any of them is good

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[vale pine]

pick your poison

[timid aspen]

TY!

[vale pine]

and most importantly

[timid aspen]

this spec is hard AF

[vale pine]

just ask in here if you are not sure

it is very easy to get stuck on things

[feral barn]

Poison doesn't do much on sub tho ...

[timid aspen]

been trying to follow hekilli for a bit and see if i can pick up some things

[vale pine]

and even if its a small thing, getting it explained gives you the option to focus on the important parts

[hazy breach]

Well the danse macabre thing is from dragonflight. With trickster its better to use it asap

[timid aspen]

but been sttuck for a while now

[wet robin]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tulip gorge]

what if they buff the shit out of deathstalker

it would be so weird to play without the extra cdr

[gilded jungle]

I’ve been having issue with cleave in m+. Outside of dance it’s storm and BP correct?

[cedar willow]

You could prob afk outside of dance and no do significantly less damage assuming same cdr

Rupture on targets who live more than 11 is priority outside of dance

[feral barn]

If you perma storm you'll never get charges of coup

[cedar willow]

Then bp

[kind river]

Is outlaw on forgeweaver M bait? Is that just it doing insane damage to the orbs?

It doesn't bring anything special for the boss burst windows right

[gilded jungle]

Normally I back stab/ ss to keep stacks up along with using dance for when coup is active.

[gilded jungle]

So out side of dance rupture all targets that lives longer then 11 sec. Correct?

[feral barn]

It's not outside of dance that you will gain dps if you struggle

[gilded jungle]

Outside of dance is my problem.

In dance there isn’t much of an issue.

[cedar willow]

Outside of dance is this spec’s problem

You need to get cdr to get back to dance

And do your rotation perfectly in dance ie 8 globals

[gilded jungle]

Maybe I’m miss managing my dance.

[tulip gorge]

it's good at padding

[violet palm]

How often do we send dance w/o symbols?

[hazy breach]

Almost never

[tulip gorge]

if you look at boss damage, outlaw is dead last

compared to sub

[kind river]

Good, I really don't want to waste any time on outlaw gear

[gilded jungle]

I try to save dance for when I will have sec tech/ Sybols every dance.

[kind river]

I fear I might need it for soul hunters though

[tulip gorge]

yeah for soul hunters outlaw may be the play

[haughty mural]

It’s not padding if you can carry orbs

[hazy breach]

The only time youd use a dance without symbols is if youre at (or close to) max stacks of dance in big aoe while you wont have enough symbols for your next flag

[tulip gorge]

you can carry as sub though

and do good damage to boss during damage amp

[haughty mural]

Yea but we are sub players

[violet palm]

Ye. It usually catches me off guard in gambit

[kind river]

My time playing sub has been very limited but I've never had more dance charges than symbols, I usually have to send my last sectec before my cd waiting period can start with only symbols and no dance, then im just waiting for cds and banking up combo points

[gilded jungle]

Also, inside dance is it ss, sec tech, bp? Specifically for m+ cleave.

[hazy breach]

Idk what you mean by ss

But its strike to build combo points

[haughty mural]

Sectech > coup > bp on 4+ > evis

[gilded jungle]

Thanks for the clarification.

[haughty mural]

[manic ivy]

guys im lost

m+ talents wowhead = no nado

ppl in m+ = nado

[hazy breach]

Play nado if you want to

[tulip gorge]

pretty sure the wowhead guide mentions you can play with nado

[hazy breach]

If you dont want to, then dont

[haughty mural]

Replicating and nado are close afaik

[manic ivy]

yeah

[haughty mural]

Play what you prefer

[manic ivy]

good to know

[vale pine]

tornado is more aoe focused, replicating is more cleave oriented

both is good

[manic ivy]

love u guys

[haughty mural]

I personally won’t touch nado till it’s removed in midnight

[kind river]

[plush roost]

And ⚠️ Warning Signs⚠️ is more alpha gamer focused!

[heady spoke]

is there a reason I can't macro symbols to shadow dance? Sorry I'm really struggling with this spec

[kind river]

Midnight will fix rogue and all the weird or bad hero talent interactions

[brittle plinth]

Lol

[tulip gorge]

good one

[brittle plinth]

Was waiting a long time for that copium emote

[tulip gorge]

sorry, DK needs another rework

so does mage probably

[pine swift]

Is it real ??

[kind river]

Realistically I'm probably gonna jump ship to that new DH spec anyway, unless it's just awful

That could happen

[tulip gorge]

we all know it's going to be S tier in the first season at least

[vale pine]

reworked ?

[plush roost]

My hot take is outlaw and DS both get reworked based on the DS tier set being boring and half baked while trickster is cool and fatebound is neat

[vale pine]

i like it

its a talent in hopes haste is at one point not useless for us

[plush roost]

The haste sub rogue world

[kind river]

DS isn't just half-baked, the design is atrocious when faced with the reality of encounter design

[plush roost]

Will be something extraordinary

[tulip gorge]

DS is not that horrible, I think they will make applying a mark much easier

[golden harbor]

Yea pls rework deathstalker, i love losing my hero talents

[hazy breach]

Well sub has no issues with losing mark

[plush roost]

Ds is boring. And its tier set is also completely forgotten about esp for sub

[hazy breach]

Thats just an Assa thing

[tulip gorge]

idk for assa I think it's great

[kind river]

More of an assa take from my standpoint but yeah

[plush roost]

They clearly put no effort when theres cool shit like stormbringer shamans

[tulip gorge]

fatebound however is horrible

and should be completely reworked

[jade urchin]

we only shurikenstorm between coups during shadow blades right?
as in we shadowstrike over storm in normal dance window even if unseen blade proc gets lost

[plush roost]

Idk i really like the 90s assa build

[tulip gorge]

the tier set made it more interesting

but by itself it's quite bad

[haughty mural]

Was just coping

[tulip gorge]

especially the part where you lose dps if there are multiple targets

[plush roost]

I think if they change fate intertwined and make the 90s thing baseline

[tulip gorge]

that shit needs reworked asap

[plush roost]

Fatebound has a super cool niche

[haughty mural]

At this point I’d rather have it removed and spend dev time on the other parts of the tree tbh

[kind river]

I like new fatebound with the tier but they need to take away the aoe penalty lmfao

How's that a real thing man

[plush roost]

Ye

[vale pine]

fair

[kind river]

Rogue hero talents are cooked

[plush roost]

Idk if youve played fatebound outlaw but its actually really fun as well

With ghostly and ar being nearly perma

[tulip gorge]

too bad the aoe is ass

[plush roost]

Yeah but that can be tuned or changed

[haughty mural]

Probably rather rework replicating - think that’s easier
To a point where we aren’t a budget assa dot spreader

[plush roost]

My crackpot theory is that the tier sets this season get baked into everyones hero talents next season

[tulip gorge]

that is definitely going to happen

[plush roost]

They put a lot of work into them

[tulip gorge]

they always use tier sets as test talents for next expansion

[kind river]

It actually blows my mind, it's not just that the spec isn't providing much for aoe (at least with assa) but you actively get worse with more targets present

Not less damage overall but less dmg from hero talents

[tulip gorge]

I am 90% sure double coup will stay as a hero talent

[acoustic matrix]

!log

[plush roost]

Yeah its dumb, should just adjust the base value of tails coin and make fate intertwined increase the damage based on target count rather than decrease it

Or remove it entirely

I personally would prefer matching flips % increased based on target count

That would be way cooler than -6% damage

[earnest canyon]

new sub rogue here! im reading the guides and it says to flagellation with shadow blade. do we just macro it into one macro?

[jade urchin]

no, use them as shown in the opener always

[vale widget]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale widget]

Theres your answer mate

[earnest canyon]

icic, thanks for the confirmation~

[vale widget]

Its not recomended because you always do Flag > Rupture to start gaining mastery stacks, then the usual sod + dance

And shadow blades just before sectech

[oblique fable]

Do you guys send netherprism when shadow blades is off cd? Or build it up to max stacks

[dense geode]

you using two or one on use trinket

[oblique fable]

Just prism atm

[dense geode]

every CD

[vast basin]

is there any rules for netherprism if i use 2 on use?

trinket

[dense geode]

kind of

you would just use it every other typically

[earnest canyon]

can i put potions into the shadowblades macro too? cant really find whrere to pot in the wowhead guide

[vale pine]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[vale pine]

oh, it does not mention double on use

double on use you essentially use prism second

[hazy breach]

It depends on what the onuses are

[vast basin]

if my other trinket is lily as 2nd on use is it just worth to use just a bis passive trinket?

i have all the other passive trinkets

[vale pine]

so e.g. with forge you forge-prism and then alter between the two

allowing prism to stack up before use

[kind river]

18 stack prism goes crazy on damage amps

I got the #1 loomithar parse on assa

[jade urchin]

sim uses it on flag, but on shadowblades is fine too
if you know fight length and bloodlust timing u might wanna bind it separately for big prism+pot or smth tho

[limpid gull]

so since forge is 2 min cd we're not pressing it every shadowblades right? just every other one

[haughty mural]

[earnest canyon]

icic, leave pot during bl or something. thanks

[kind river]

Ah some Chinese guy beat me already on loomithar

Inevitable I guess

[tidal mica]

Hey, i think i am doing something wrong.
I play mostly M+ and i tryed using BP at 4+ targets instead of Evis. But my damage is lower in comparison to just spamming Evis in thos same pulls.
So i play my regular opener and after the first Secret Technique and my 2 Coups i start spending CPs with BP.
After/Outside of the dances i generate with storm and spending with BP.
I tryed to get more muscle memory with the BP and stuff but i think thats not my problem.
This are Evis spam and Bp at the 5 Target Cleave dummis in town.
Anybody got some advice? Thanks for reading. 🙂

[neon frigate]

Hey guys, can i do mythic 10 lvl with 699 item lvl? I can comfortly do 7-8. I have 720 dagger

[jade urchin]

probably just proc luck, cloak did 15mil less in first, focusing lense below 6m in first, maybe not same amount of prism stacks on cds

[acoustic matrix]

yeah easily

[jade urchin]

4 is roughly the same still#

[plain creek]

is it normal that my sims want more vers than mastery?

or am i cucked

[jade urchin]

roughly same usually, just trust the robot

its slightly more vers than mastery for me too

[hazy breach]

Or you can just not get haste

Thats about as much thought as we need to dedicate to stats

[plain creek]

yeah, im at like 16.5k mast 18k vers

and it wants me to go more vers

[plain creek]

that also, my sims hate haste

im at like 2k

[lucid jackal]

Gear isn't complicated in this game

[marsh path]

Guys, the build that uses Thistle Tea
When should I use Thistle Tea only when I run out of energy or should I use it to deal damage? Is there a macro to use with another skill?

[lucid jackal]

Why would it be cooked?

[jade urchin]

im 20k vers 18k mastery and it prios vers too, its fine

[left ledge]

just sim items

[jade urchin]

can bind with shadow dance and forget about it

[karmic harbor]

casual playing with shuriken tornado in keys

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[left ledge]

you mean tornado?

shuriken storm is baseline

[karmic harbor]

yeah tornado

[astral axle]

Casual playing with shadowstrike in keys

[left ledge]

tornado is pretty strong

just boring and non-interactive with our cds

actually not non-interactive

interactive in bad ways

[marsh path]

ty

[lucid jackal]

What stats is he running? What trinkets? What transmog? What dungeon? What day of the week is it? What comp do we need to play sub with

[spiral garden]

!wa

[rigid delta]

Is it possible to sim only a specific slot in the Droptimizer sims on Raidbots? I just wanna sim belt drops from Mythic+ dungeons

[astral axle]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/933386399279878154/991343673419763753/caption.gif

[lucid jackal]

Literally

[tulip gorge]

having tornado as a cdr tool is not that bad

[left ledge]

Pandaren Monk, Naked with one shoulder equipped (ToS tier piece), it is Friday, it was in Eco-Dome Al'Dani, 3 sub rogues 1 rsham 1 prot war, heirloom trinkets

[slate marlin]

gonna pug a priory 17, what could possible go wrong

[hazy breach]

No, you can either just sim the full thing anyway or manually add them in topgear

But also belts from m+ is unlikely to be very good since you generally need about a 710 belt to even replace the delve belt

[daring agate]

any tips on the opener? and cooldown usage?

[lucid jackal]

Just do it

[cunning anvil]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[rigid delta]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dry tapir]

New to sub and still learning. I feel like I have my burst somewhat down and am getting better at flowing between flag/blades. I notice when I look at my overalls I do much less black powders compared to other high parses (keys) and a lot more evis. From what I've read it's bp at 7+. But when I do say streets there's not many pulls with that many yet some of the higher logs still had a lot of black powder.

Or even watched a dawn and the guy was hitting bp on the first pull

[hazy breach]

Bp at 4 or more

Not 7+

[dry tapir]

So do like sec tec burst window and just bp instead of evis?

[hybrid thorn]

I started mathing last night after watching Kush say Veiltouched isn't worth and Rotten is kinda sus.
Most common talents ran I've seen go with Inevitability down to The Rotten, I fucked around and got 2 points into Finality and based on a 12 ecodome key I ran to log Seems like finality is about 5.4%~ish value vs veiltouched being about 2% haven't checked the value of The Rotten but doesn't seem to be that good imo

[hazy breach]

Sectech > coup > bp on 4+ > evis

Is the finisher prio

[wet echo]

i just recently came back after 9 months... what made bp so much better than before in the meantime?

[chrome flax]

All top rogue do not use the Tea, is it really worth picking an extra button?

[wet echo]

i remember it being evis up to like 12 targets

[astral axle]

[haughty mural]

Bp got buffed 1000x times for instance

[feral knot]

huge

[wet echo]

oh it did? didn't really go through old tuning notes

[chrome flax]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[haughty mural]

The last time heading into s3

[cedar iron]

Idk why i'm struggling on arakara first pull to do dmg.

[lucid jackal]

It got buffed

[lucid jackal]

You don't keybind tea

Tea is more aoe, cb is more st

U can pick either

[chrome flax]

wdym not keybind it?

[onyx ivy]

if I wanna sim aoe, does dungeon slice work for sub?

[lucid jackal]

You macro it

[chrome flax]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[lucid jackal]

Same way you macro cb

[chrome flax]

I feel like macroing just reduce your adaptability tbh. You macro it on what?

[haughty mural]

Dance

[karmic harbor]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[karmic harbor]

wait whats the shd tea + bs macro

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[slender totem]

not rly rogue related but how many ethereal shards for making sets should you have this week if you dont include the hc kill one?

[rain vessel]

2

3 with 2k rating or dimensius

[chrome flax]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[lucid jackal]

Tea has an auto proc component

And even if it didn't, this spec does 0 damage outside or cooldowns

Adaptability of thistle tea would move the needle almost 0

[chrome flax]

Im aware we are borderline useless outside CD's

[winged kernel]

how would u sim forgeweaver

hectic add cleave?

[lucid jackal]

Just single target

[chrome flax]

I didnt notice the auto drink now. Kinda cool

[daring agate]

are we supposed to be taking tea? no build i

have seen takes it

[karmic harbor]

where are you looking at builds

[daring agate]

archon and murlok

[next valley]

m+ one

[karmic harbor]

try wowhead and icyveins

[fleet wharf]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[sudden belfry]

Do you think sub will get nerfs being meta in m+ and top damage in some raid bosses?

[karmic harbor]

nobody can predict blizzard nerfs

[neon frigate]

Is thistle tea really better in m+ than cold blood?

[lucid jackal]

There is 0 world sub gets nerfed

[lucid jackal]

It's more aoe and less st than cb

If you think sub is op enough to get nerfed you genuinely don't know what specs are actually op in the game rn

[chrome flax]

Sub is actually balance right now

[neon frigate]

Btw 1 more extra question is have 4p set. Is it better to focus on coup de grace in groups or just spam BP?

[acoustic matrix]

ChatGPT balancing is never predictable

[lucid jackal]

What?

[maiden hamlet]

This is usually enough to get a nerf for sub tho

[lucid jackal]

What?

[tepid trellis]

finisher prio is Sectech-coup-Bp-evis on AoE

and sectech-coup-evis on single target

so yes consume it whenever its up

[lucid jackal]

I thought balance druids were wows biggest victims

Not rogues but I guess times have changed

[clever delta]

guys did you hear about that sub nerf?

we are donmzo

[hollow spear]

You can't outvictim balance druids

[karmic harbor]

ill never forgive blizzard for nerfing sub after bfa uldir...

[acoustic matrix]

Rogues are meta like 80% of the time

[chrome flax]

A full dps class being top dps. omg how dare they

better buff paly

[astral axle]

https://tenor.com/view/general-buck-gif-15527381

[acoustic matrix]

I heard there's a bug making pally giga busted rn

[chrome flax]

While sub have great output damage. They dont scale on very high key. Blizzard cant seem to properly balance our class

[hollow spear]

If you mean my raid dying to give them perma wings, that's not a bug

[tepid trellis]

the funniest thing is, usually the people that cry the most about balancing is the peope it matters the least for

[hollow spear]

Idk, casual seems to be doing quite alright for himself in high keys rn

[chrome flax]

what is high key for you? Because 15-16 are a joke right now

Sub just wont hit the higher level of keys

[karmic harbor]

this m+ season seems pretty easy

[chrome flax]

Blizzard do on purpose to make every season easier than the last to give you a good dopamine rush. You still as good/bad as last season

[astral axle]

yeah the number 2 ranked rogue isnt doing high keys what are you thinking you idiot you absolute moron

you buffoon

[lucid jackal]

I mean that too lol

[chrome flax]

we didnt cap in key yet. Sub rogue have huge flat damage so easy to push early season. But everytime we end up at the end of the barrel once everyone is fully geared

If you look at current standing as this stage of the patch to know what is actually op or not. You miss understand wow mechanic fundamentaly

[acoustic matrix]

The thing is, sub rogue was good on PTR with everyone being 723 full BiS

[hazy breach]

Gear is irrelevant

[chrome flax]

Some class scale more than other. Sub do not scale

[marsh path]

Is a Dance of Shadows and Symbols of Death macro worth it?

[plush roost]

Gear isnt why sub falls off and the profile for sub has changed this season. Not only will it remain fairly comptetive with a bugfixed assa but it will find niches in keys like streets and db where it will be prefered.

[astral axle]

oh no

[tepid trellis]

[astral axle]

he brought up the S word

[hazy breach]

The reason sub didnt "scale" last season

Was that all the other specs got buffed

While sub didnt

[lucid jackal]

Claims other people don't understand the game, then mentions scaling

[haughty mural]

sCaLiNg

[plush roost]

Mfw my spec that values 3 secondary stats before DR doesnt scale

[lucid jackal]

I feel like double on use is super good in keys

Cuz U get so many 18 prism big blasts

[tepid trellis]

its quite good if you consistently do big pulls

[hollow spear]

It gains big value in a premade

[hazy breach]

I mean you get the same amounts

As if you didnt run it

[plush roost]

Prism alone will make sub viable. (Itll also be turbo op on assa just u watch)

[acoustic matrix]

Guys if I wanna predict shadowcraft refunds I just need to track when I have 7+ stack or I'm misunderstanding it ?

[tepid trellis]

yes

[chrome flax]

Im not saying Sub isnt good. But that pattern of early season being top to end up not touching the top of the keys is very common.

[lucid jackal]

Yeah but you can leverage an 18 stack more than just 9s

[hazy breach]

What

[hollow spear]

It sucks if you get an 18 stack and your tank decides to pull super small

[tepid trellis]

there is this crazy concept called mid season balancing where they buff and nerf classes

[lucid jackal]

Like if you pull around an 18 stack prism in an optimized group, it's gonna be better than just winging it

[tepid trellis]

which is what they do

[hazy breach]

Ofc

[tepid trellis]

and they left sub out of it

[chrome flax]

I understand this. But that not the whole picture

[hazy breach]

But that has nothing to do with double on-use

[tepid trellis]

for 5 months

that is what dictates what is

good

not how you "scale"

[lucid jackal]

Double on use lets you store 18 stacks without leaving a cooldown set without a button

[chrome flax]

Sure, keep coping

[tepid trellis]

scaling is completely irellvant when they do constant balance updates

[lucid jackal]

Listen, I'm a forge/prism truther

[tepid trellis]

bro

-.-

cba

[acoustic matrix]

Can anyone answer this ? ^^
#subtlety message

[tepid trellis]

i did

its yes

[acoustic matrix]

oh the yes was for me

aight ty

[lucid jackal]

Well you can generate stacks during coup and get a refund during

so U wanna just track how many stacks u have in general

Not just when u have 7

Being aware that during coup, when ur at 5 is probably going to lead to a refund is important

[lucid jackal]

Keep coping pipsqueak

[acoustic matrix]

Yeah but once I coup i'll pass the 7 right ?

I'll have the gcd to react to it

[lucid jackal]

You wont

Because it happens in between coup swings

[acoustic matrix]

oh

[tepid trellis]

coup does 3 hits

[hazy breach]

(thats a bug)

[tepid trellis]

so any of em can proc refund

[tepid trellis]

happy accident*

[swift tinsel]

your gcd WA goated btw

[tepid trellis]

is what i was told

[lucid jackal]

its a bug you can easily play around if you just track all sht stacks and not just 7

[hazy breach]

Just like replicating shadows being able to proc the refund

[acoustic matrix]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[tepid trellis]

the refund sound trigger wont always work on coup

it just is what it is

[warm marlin]

I think easily is a bit aggressive

[lucid jackal]

more easily*

[plush roost]

Sub wasnt meta last season because the meta wanted a prio class and UDK, arms, balance, ret were commonly played with assa which provided prio.

Feral provided the prio for outlaw comps and sub dossnt fill the consistent dps that outlaw has. Simple as

[acoustic matrix]

you have made one of your own ?

[marsh path]

Is a Dance of Shadows and Symbols of Death macro worth it?

[acoustic matrix]

No Pruk

[hoary anvil]

in which situations would you dance without symbols?

[lucid jackal]

In your opener

[normal patio]

In my living room

[tepid trellis]

cant believe sub didn't scale better than Evoker that got buffed by 15%

[lucid jackal]

Literally

[tepid trellis]

unbelieveable

[hoary anvil]

in the opener that you specifically sance+symbols together?

[hazy breach]

Not the second one

[lucid jackal]

In the opener that you specifically don't

[acoustic matrix]

I mean if you have a separate key for dance I guess you could macro it

[lucid jackal]

because the 2nd dance is ready before its time to send a 2nd symbols

[hazy breach]

With the first dance its often the opposite, then you wanna symbols before you dance

[lucid jackal]

this is standard opener

[hazy breach]

But either way the second set of symbols+dance in blades you do not want to be macroed

[acoustic matrix]

tbf macro would have worked here

[lucid jackal]

Nope

Wouldn't have

[acoustic matrix]

you pressed first symbol right before 4 and second dance at 12

[tepid trellis]

he wouldnt have supercharged his 2nd sectech

[high bramble]

you want blue for sectec that would follow

[chrome flax]

Why SB after sectec?

[lucid jackal]

It means my supercharger wouldnt be on my sectec

[high bramble]

just missing from the image

[acoustic matrix]

oh yeah true

[marsh path]

why use secret technique before Shadow Blade?

[lucid jackal]

Sectec hit damage is low, the clone damage is high, the added global of CP is worth more than the bonus damage blades provides on the hit damage

[acoustic matrix]

I've seen a lot of people do that

Do you have it macro'ed ?

Or just fast fingers

[lucid jackal]

I have 2 sub macros and thats it

[hoary anvil]

(worth noting, i'm asking not as a challenge, but more as a learning opportunity for myself, i like to know why things are done and nost just auto-default muscle memory to something)

[lucid jackal]

Trinkets with blades, and sectec with and without cold blood

all other macros are bad

all good

[sly stag]

Completely new to Rogue - Been learning sub this week and just wanted to undertand the reasoning behind not pairing Dance/Symbols in a macro. I see most guides i've read outline not to macro them but its not explained and brushed off usually.

[lucid jackal]

scroll up these past 20 messages

[daring agate]

do we ever even use Black Powder?

[tepid trellis]

4 or more targets

[lucid jackal]

All the time yes

4 or more targets

[sly stag]

Okay this was super helpful visualization

[lucid jackal]

Dont follow this opener cast for cast because a lot of it is contextual

[daring agate]

so 4+ BP instead of Evi, correct?

[lucid jackal]

But the reason like I said to not macro it is to make sure supercharger lands on sectec

WIth a macro it would never in your opener

[sly stag]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[tepid trellis]

yes you BP over evis at 4 or more targets

[sly stag]

thank you for this.

[sly stag]

Does coup de grace take prio over BP at 4+ targets ?

[daring agate]

ty

[tepid trellis]

yes

[sly stag]

Is there a breakpoint of targets where you ignore the cdg procs?

[tepid trellis]

nope never

[sly stag]

thank you so much lol

[lucid jackal]

Coup gives you infinite everything so no

[sly stag]

Learning sub from scratch this week has been a bit daunting

[lucid jackal]

CDR, Mastery, Damage

Sub is very easy

Its easy to overthink though

[manic salmon]

sub is not very easy

you just got super used to it

[sly stag]

Just completely new to rogue and yeah i think im overthinking, some of my keybinds dont feel great so ill move stuff around to help

[manic salmon]

its not very intuitive

but play it for a week, everyone here is super helpful, read what they have to say

youll get it down in no time

[brittle rain]

Sub has to be the most unintuitive spec right now

[dreamy root]

im learning aswell after not playing retail for 3+ years, go slap target dummies and read in here

[manic salmon]

agreed

[brisk hare]

is it normal for Nimble flurry typically be highest on damage profile or is some thing wrong?

[tepid trellis]

Coup is essentially just a 12 combo point eviscerate that gives you 5 stacks of flawless form

[sly stag]

Yeah just insanely overloaded button, this helps highligh its value tho

[tepid trellis]

and with 4set you can very easily reach like 25 flawless form stacks which is alot of finisher dmg

[sly stag]

I feel pretty consistent on Single target, but i get a bit mindflooded in keys for some reason due to the strict sequencing of everything

[lucid jackal]

I said this last tier and its basically still relevant

[sly stag]

Thanks for sharing.

[chrome flax]

That is how I feel about outlaw tbh

[manic salmon]

we dont talk about itlaw

outlaw

[dreamy root]

exact same boat as you, on m+ pulls so confused on when i should be using shuriken storm/bp or shadowstrike/Coupe

[hoary anvil]

isn't it 14 with SC?

[tepid trellis]

so in like your burst, not only are you getting 73.5% mastery from flag

[real hare]

what poisons do we do

[tepid trellis]

flawless form will also give you 75% finisher dmg sometimes

[tepid trellis]

15

cuz u play forced induc

[manic salmon]

if you are using rotten then shuriken storm the first global in symbols for find weakness, in cooldowns you want to be pressing shadowstrike due to flawless form and unseen blade always

[hoary anvil]

yeah right right, 15 with sc

[manic salmon]

not flawless for

whatever i lost the word

[tepid trellis]

if you super charge it that is

[manic salmon]

blade flurry for sub

[tepid trellis]

nimble flurry

[manic salmon]

yeah

[hoary anvil]

the sub flurry

[chrome flax]

Great, your message is talking about how that spec is the most unintuitive

But yeah lets not talk about failled warrior

[manic salmon]

yeah

[tepid trellis]

instant + atro/mindnumb

[manic salmon]

exactly

[empty plume]

you kinda mix both tbf
like. you shadowstrike BP until coup is available, and then shadowstrike coup storm coup

if using The Rotten talent you can storm once after symbols

[chrome flax]

I still think they should remove outlaw and make a heal rogue that stab his ally with seringue

[manic salmon]

holy 🧑‍🍳

keep cooking chef

you might be onto something

[chrome flax]

Bruh, it would be so dope

[empty plume]

stealth medic

[dreamy root]

should i be using this? ive just been using the m+ spec from the guides

[manic salmon]

i like using the rotten in m+

[tall hatch]

From a scale 1-10 how hard is to learn Sub?

[chrome flax]

11

[lucid jackal]

Idk maybe like a 5

[manic salmon]

7

[crystal bone]

6

[tall hatch]

Decent 😂

[manic salmon]

@lucid jackal question

[chrome flax]

Mostly meming. Its not so bad. Min maxing it tho is another story

[manic salmon]

scenario: 2 targets share health

is bp -> evisc or is evisc stronger with nimble

[lucid jackal]

evis is better

[manic salmon]

ty

[spice lichen]

Learn 2
Master 9?

[chrome flax]

if 2 health share. def evis

[sly stag]

Im sure its somewhat recency bias, but i consider my self a pretty good player and this feels like the steepest learning curve of anything i've learned in the last few expansions. Also rogue being mostly new to me plays into it, but definitely struggling more than i have with any other spec in recent years.

[daring agate]

in aoe does shuriken replace backstab/ss?\

[spice lichen]

Outside of dance 2+ targets
In dance only between coup

[sly stag]

It feels like there is way more condititionals for "If X do Y" than most specs.

[open vortex]

does anyone have a wa that tracks how long the gcd for coup is, just incase you get the refund late?

[spice lichen]

Outside of dance just go ahead and put up ruptures and take a bio

[chrome flax]

Yeah, its because its one of the few spec that your whole combo take 10 sec. You are melee and can get punish if you cant finish your combo properly

[manic salmon]

use sound

[tall hatch]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[open vortex]

i don't play with sound

[manic salmon]

cdg has a sound cue with 3 strikes

[lucid jackal]

ya ig it depends on what u've played, but ive played much harder to play specs in the past

Its for sure more involved than a majority of specs, but I think the issue ppl have with rogue in general is overthinking things

[empty plume]

up2u, the main talent swaps i've noticed in different people for m+ are
tea vs CB
inevitability + rotten vs perforated veins + finality

i'd say finality has to think a bit less and rotten is good specifically for aoe Find Weakness for "shadowed finishers" talent

[spice lichen]

I’m telling you outlaw has more complex stuff going on than sub rn

[hoary anvil]

brother im overthinking the hell out of these 15s windows

[chrome flax]

I cant play this. Just horrible and unsatsfying

[lucid jackal]

cuz at the end of the day all sub is about is learning your major CD sequences, knowing when to stop using cooldowns, and that's kinda it lol

[spice lichen]

The stop using cds part is the hardest part

[sly stag]

Im realizing this more and more as i play it more, im overthinking the sequencing and definitely over using CDs as i learn how quickly i farm back dances etc.

[spice lichen]

Esp if you’re staring at details watching yourself go from 1 to 7 and you see dance up

[hoary anvil]

im struggling with not defaulting to storm->bp loop on AoE

[mental kettle]

god friday hits diff when you have next week off

[chrome flax]

What suck is when flag and sb are coming bacj as you kill the boss. Rip parse

[spice lichen]

Yeah just live life shadowstriking and vibe out it’s definitely different

[wispy crystal]

Is sub rogue the superior spec for M+ in single target and AOE?

[mental kettle]

no

Assa wins aoe pad

[spice lichen]

I wouldn’t call it pad

[wispy crystal]

Oh my assas rogue does like 2M single target it's really sad though

[mental kettle]

yes

[spice lichen]

Funnel + aoe pad

[mental kettle]

bleed build ST

[spice lichen]

Sub is some top tier aoe pad

[manic salmon]

WELL

[mental kettle]

kinda dogshit